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monir
2013-05-18, 13:43
Welcome to the discussion thread for Suisei no Gargantia, Episode 7.

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bastek66
2013-05-18, 14:23
http://i.imgur.com/lZ82JYl.jpg (http://imgur.com/lZ82JYl)http://i.imgur.com/n9WVee0.jpg (http://imgur.com/n9WVee0)http://i.imgur.com/7BDV4fA.jpg (http://imgur.com/7BDV4fA)http://i.imgur.com/0yjAV06.jpg (http://imgur.com/0yjAV06)http://i.imgur.com/XshQMrH.jpg (http://imgur.com/XshQMrH)

Destined_Fate
2013-05-18, 14:30
Let the Bellows x Fluffy Blonde Hair Guy commence!

Sorry, that pic... I couldn't help myself.

Ledo also appears traumatized. Guess being attacked by a sea octopus is a terrifying experience.

justinstrife
2013-05-19, 00:58
Boo... I do not ship that pairing!

Renegade334
2013-05-19, 08:18
Ep.07 ---

First half:
- Bellows tries to swim after Ledo, but gets caught in the crossfire - the Hideauze grapples with her mech and even forces her to jettison some of her limbs
- Ledo tackles the Hideauze and squeezes it to death (yes, you read that right - he hugged it until it literally bursts into bits of flesh, complete with a huge plume of ink)
- OP rolls in
- Back to the surface, Bellows examines her lim-less mecha, while the Galgantia higher-ups examine the Hideauze report, correlate its appearance to that of a beast they seemingly already know of (they don't seem too happy about Ledo's latest deed; either)
- Chamber's fuselage/armor is coated with pulverized Hideauze flesh, much to the horror/fascination of the Galgantia population, that has come to gawk at the spectacle
- Looks like the Galgantia elder/commander has health issues and is in the middle of a medical check-up with the librarian/doctor. Chekov's Gun, I suppose.
- Pinion's crew seems unnerved by the latest developments
- Bellows and Ledo are debriefed by Ridget; he tries to make his case to the higher-ups, but once again they don't seem quite enthused/convinced by Ledo's claims about the Hideauze
- Ledo visits Bebel, still quite angry at the elders/Ridget's reticence

< Started experiencing streaming problems here, must've missed a couple scenes >

- Ledo has conversation with Chamber inside his hangar
- Night falls; lots of luminous activity on the horizon (sea galaxy / nanomachines-related), causing some alarm among Galgantia citizens/workers
- Ledo sends Chamber out, probably on recon mission (still having streaming issues here)
Second half:
- Sorry for the confusion, Ledo called Chamber out so that HE could check the luminous bloom himself (yes, my streaming quality got crappy again)
- Amy prevents him from going, blocks his path
- Alarms sound on Galgantia. Entire community tries to find shelter and goes into lockdown, some citizens are freaking out (almost religious terror)
- THOUSANDS of glowing Hideauze are swimming under the surface, towards the city
- Galgantia goes dark - all lights are killed and propellers are deactivated
- Amy still tries to prevent Ledo from going out to confront the Hideauze
- Elders and Ridget try to stop Ledo by holding him at gunpoint, but Hideauze swim under Galgantia, causing some commotion
- Galgantia continues to play dead in order to let the Hideauze swim by without a care in the world
- Hideauze indeed swim past Galgantia, Ledo does NOT approve
- Rift between Ledo and Galgantia is now complete
- Galgantia's leader has stroke in the middle of a higher-up report (aforementioned Chekov's gun has been fired)
- ED rolls in
Next ep preview:
- Next ep will place focus on Amy, her two friends and Ridget (looks like some Galgantia residents are relocating/evacuating?).
- Ending eyecatch is Bellows
EYECATCH - click to enlarge:
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8052/1368970172615.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8052/1368970172615.jpg)

MisaoFan
2013-05-19, 08:33
The latest episode really left me depressed, but it is also the turning point of the anime. Ledo killing an Hideauze is indeed dreadful in the emotional sense, and the fact that those hideous (pun intended) creatures invading on Earth leave everyone in worry. Gen Urobuchi is seriously putting some effort that the story might take into a slightly dark route, the older man died, lots of drama happens, and it didn't help that in the next episode, it implies that everyone should leave from Gargantia because of the Hideauze's invasion. I think I'm gonna hold my own soul and pray that Gen should write a happy ending for the show.

RainbowMagnet
2013-05-19, 09:15
The latest episode really left me depressed, but it is also the turning point of the anime. Ledo killing an Hideauze is indeed dreadful in the emotional sense, and the fact that those hideous (pun intended) creatures invading on Earth leave everyone in worry. Gen Urobuchi is seriously putting some effort that the story might take into a slightly dark route, the older man died, lots of drama happens, and it didn't help that in the next episode, it implies that everyone should leave from Gargantia because of the Hideauze's invasion. I think I'm gonna hold my own soul and pray that Gen should write a happy ending for the show.

I don't think that's why they're leaving though. To my understanding, there's a part on Gargantia whom want to leave due to different opinions. Pinion and the other dude at the meeting want get rid of the hideauze for treasure huntings sake, while the others are of the opinion of leaving the Hideauze alone, because they pose too much of a danger.

MisaoFan
2013-05-19, 09:33
I don't think that's why they're leaving though. To my understanding, there's a part on Gargantia whom want to leave due to different opinions. Pinion and the other dude at the meeting want get rid of the hideauze for treasure huntings sake, while the others are of the opinion of leaving the Hideauze alone, because they pose too much of a danger.

I see what are you saying, I understand that bit now!

Dann of Thursday
2013-05-19, 10:08
Something I'm not clear on is if the hideauze or whale squid as I think they called it last time, are responsible for the areas Gargantia goes to for power. If that is the case, then it would prove that humanity could live in peace and even benefit from the hideauze provided they don't attack them.

Of course, perhaps they might have attacked anyway. I sort of think Ledo just screwed up big time.

mikeomni
2013-05-19, 11:26
Seems space and earth are now colliding. The first few minutes when Ledo killed the Whalesquid made me go "Oh, crap! Here comes a sucker punch."

Pinion is quite a schemer, threatening to leave the fleet with the other fleet captain. The politicking in the fleet could be deadly later on. And with the implied power vacuum of Fairlock's incapacitation, it may be quite a mess. Ledo and the Hideauze have just piled on to the worries of daily survival and pirates. Would Amy and the other Gargantians on the 'light' side be able to weather this darkness?

Dammit, so far this series has made me go from shock, awe, bewilderment, contentment, and now despair.

andyjay729
2013-05-19, 13:19
Now that's more like it. I think most people who were having doubts about this show should feel relieved now. Okay, maybe that's not the right word, since tension has definitely taken hold.

I forget if it was /a/ or something, but I suspected that the Gargantians might consider whalesquids holy like Hindus and cows, and Ledo killing one of them might lead to trouble.

The scene of the whalesquids swimming under the fleet was a masterpiece of tension. I was sucking on my lips throughout the duration, especially when that guy dropped that wrench.

And now Pinion's showing signs of becoming an antagonist or even villain. And so soon after throwing a barbeque for Ledo...

I thought this show would go from around 25 MPH to 80 in about three seconds, and I sure wasn't disappointed. Glad to be watching.

Shinji103
2013-05-19, 13:23
I'm seeing some incorrect summaries here. >.>

I guess most of you are piecing things together based on partial Japanese skills so I don't blame you, but here's what's going on (I do understand Japanese) to keep people from getting confused:

Ledo killed the Hidealize (however you spell that in English) because from his point of view they're humanity's enemy, but Bellows didn't want him to kill it because earthkind has lived with them in peace all this time because they leave them alone.

Now the whole fleet is scared of the squids retaliating, and the brass blames Ledo for it. Pinion sees this as an opportunity; he asks for Bellow's help on a salvage job to the ship they found. Bellows refuses because she thinks Pinion is on a mission to bolster his own ego, not helping out the ship. So Pinion talks to one of the fleet leaders to get his support.

Amy and the kid have a difference of opinion on the matter of the squids; Ledo thinks "KILL 'EM ALL", and Amy and the kid say to leave them alone.

Later a large mass of the squids appraoches. Ledo wants to go out and take them on, though he's ready to leave the fleet so they don't get caught up in the battle. The second in command comes down to stop him from attacking the squids, even at gunpoint.

The episode ends with Pinion asking the captain for permission to take Ledo and salvage the ship. The fleet leader Pinion was talking to says his fleet supports the operation, and they're ready to seperate from the Gargantia fleet in order to carry it out.

Funkatron
2013-05-19, 13:24
Now that's more like it. I think most people who were having doubts about this show should feel relieved now. Okay, maybe that's not the right word, since tension has definitely taken hold.

I forget if it was /a/ or something, but I suspected that the Gargantians might consider whalesquids holy like Hindus and cows, and Ledo killing one of them might lead to trouble.

The scene of the whalesquids swimming under the fleet was a masterpiece of tension. I was sucking on my lips throughout the duration, especially when that guy dropped that wrench.

And now Pinion's showing signs of becoming an antagonist or even villain. And so soon after throwing a barbeque for Ledo...

I thought this show would go from around 25 MPH to 80 in about three seconds, and I sure wasn't disappointed. Glad to be watching.

I thought it was less "we worship the whalesquid" holy and more "We mess with them, they'll mess up the fleet" fearful reverence. Pinion has a grudge against them for killing his brother and it looks like there are more that feel the same. The fact the whalesquid/sea Hideuze don't attack unless provoked me wonder about the Alliance: who shot first in their war?

andyjay729
2013-05-19, 13:33
I thought it was less "we worship the whalesquid" holy and more "We mess with them, they'll mess up the fleet" fearful reverence. Pinion has a grudge against them for killing his brother and it looks like there are more that feel the same. The fact the whalesquid/sea Hideuze don't attack unless provoked me wonder about the Alliance: who shot first in their war?

Ridget said some people consider them holy. I was thinking maybe they think of them as an unpredictable, destructive god.

You probably should've used spoiler tags, no offense.

mikeomni
2013-05-19, 13:46
The "time travel theory" is back on the table with Episode 7. Ledo for a while questions whether the Hideauze travelled with him. But if these Hideauze adapted to the earth environment and have been in local lore for a long time they can't have arrived at the same time. If we follow the real world theory that backwards time travel isn't possible It's indeed probable Ledo arrived later than Chamber's chronograph suggests. It might also explain why it's hard to get a location fix if the stars aren't where they are expected.

Also in Episode 7, Chamber states that the Gargantian strategy for survival can't be put into Alliance words ... co-existence. The Gargantian relationship with earth Hideauze is commensalism. Ledo represents their predator. There's a good chance the Alliance started the conflict due to its intolerance.

If this is a coming-of-age story then at some point we'll arrive at an end where they all get along. With Gargantia being in the title, that's likely the society Ledo is mean to conform with. "Stop your pointless obsession, boy! Conform. And get a job!"

DuelGundam2099
2013-05-19, 14:13
Well I just watched the episode. Somewhat good, although not crazy good.
It was nice to see the lovable squids come back from the first episode. I'd be interested in seeing the pirates again. I also look forward to the supposed treasure hunting. How does Ledo intend to destroy them all exactly? This episode proved Chamber can barely take on one of them underwater, the only way the two can win is if Chamber floats in the air and laser spams from atop the water.
Hidealize (however you spell that in English)
*Hideauze

Not sure why they could not just say "hideous", maybe copyrights or something like that.

Folenfant
2013-05-19, 14:22
Just a few things I want to mention and add to the thread that stood out to me regarding this episode:

- The show takes a pretty drastic turn in the use of color for the first episode of it's second half. While the previous episodes surrounding Gargantia featured a lot of very bright and vibrant colors this week uses a more subdued color pallette. Lots of shots at dusk or in dimly lit rooms or from beneath the seabed as well. One might be lead to believe that this is to indicate a change in overall tone before we even get to the content of the episode

- While Ledo was seeming to slowly adjust to the simpler life on the Gargantia we see this episode when the opportunity arises he is all too ready to get back to the lifestyle he is most familiar with. Fighting the Hideauze, "the enemy of humanity". Nothing else matters to him the second he has a chance to get back into things, not even Amy's wishes, not even Ridget's idle threats. It makes one wonder how the previous episodes will come into play now if at all as they only seem to have had a temporary effect on his outlook of the situation and his programming still seems to have the larger pull on his interpretation of matters.

- The "whalesquids" do not seem to attack unprovoked which makes one wonder if they are the Hideauze we saw in the opening episode, offshoots or something else entirely. It brings into question whether the Alliances portrayal of the war with the Hideauze is 100% accurate or not. We never saw the Hideauze attacking a human enclave unprovoked but we have seen them counter an Alliance attack in the only major battle we've seen so far.

- Pinion raises a death flag by mentioning a dead brother and the quest for vengeance not earlier but into the shows second half. Does not bode well for him in the coming weeks, especially since it looks like he and Ledo will be going to the bottom of the ocean in a quest for answers about their history and that of the whalesquids. I assume answers with start to come as that expedition progresses.

- As I suspected seemingly semi-competent peace time fleet commander looks to be on the way out which leads me to believe that the seemingly much more capable Ridget will be rising to take his place before long, possibly as soon as next week. She seems to handle situations more proactively than he does and is more decisive while he has been shown to be purely reactive and reluctant to make key decisions right away. If things are to progress towards open conflict at this point he is not the person that need in charge, but someone like Ridget who has shown she is willing to handle matters directly like she tried to with Ledo at the end of this weeks episode.

ookamigirl
2013-05-19, 14:25
So a whalesquid is a sacred animal.
Wow, that goes against everything Ledo is fighting for.
Hideauze he knows are not the ones Gargantian's know.
They may be the same species, but their actions were not the same.
Everything was fine until Ledo provoked them.
You could feel the tension in the air.

DuelGundam2099
2013-05-19, 14:32
if they are the Hideauze we saw in the opening episode, offshoots or something else entirely.
Considering whalesquids don't have giant shells on their back it is safe to say that they were not the same, a subspecies perhaps.

Enjou
2013-05-19, 14:41
Considering whalesquids don't have giant shells on their back it is safe to say that they were not the same, a subspecies perhaps.

The shells could also be some kind of life support for working in space.

I'm guessing they may be an offshoot group of the Hideauze - if the species is intelligent there might be differing philosophies among them just as there are among humans.

Haak
2013-05-19, 14:43
Fantastic episode. After the two breather episodes, this series is right back on track and it'll be interesting to see where Ledo goes from here.

joshuafaramir
2013-05-19, 14:47
HELL YEAH!! Shit hits the fan now and everybody's scrambling to get away and have a piece of it!

I hope we get to see some underwater action and more squashed squid. Deep fry em calamaries LEDO

Mangaka-chan
2013-05-19, 14:49
Seems like some people's predictions about the Hideazu has come true more or less.


It may be that the whalesquid are juvenile versions of the Hideazu, since the ones we saw in space looked more like a nautilus and someone have giant flower shaped nests. I'm interested in seeing how they explain the whalesquid going into space later on, or possibly the other way around.

Pinion mentioned he has a dead older brother, and I wonder how that's going to factor into all this. Was he killed by the whalesquid? Somehow this has to do with Pinion's desire to go salvage in whalesquid habitats though I have to say Pinion's behavior in this episode really doesn't endear him to me. It feels like he's taking advantage of the situation and feeding off the ship owner's (forgot his name) greed for treasures. I just hope he has a darn good explanation for acting this way.

joshuafaramir
2013-05-19, 14:58
Those Hideazu might be the same as the Earth People in comparison. Like how the alliance are all high tech and shit while the Earth people are primitive etc. Same could be also said for the Hideazu...

kukuru
2013-05-19, 15:07
Those Hideazu might be the same as the Earth People in comparison. Like how the alliance are all high tech and shit while the Earth people are primitive etc. Same could be also said for the Hideazu...

Unknown, need more information. It could be like Ledo says, and that the whalesquid are just ignoring the human population because they vastly overpower them. Thus a superior ignoring an inferior as long as they stay inferior.

Sacred beast also means, not only leaving them alone, but let them do what they want (of course it's certain death to fight a squid so it all comes out to be the same).

While both are "peaceful" that doesn't mean much, because as Ledo says (but probably didn't mean) as both civilizations advance and expand, it'll just lead to conflict, and a great war for dominance (like the alliance in space)

It's your standard political drama, but it is certainly not "peace" one side is clearly inferior to the other's superior, this episode proves that. Powering down the fleet is equivalent to rolling over on your belly. Clearly one is the master and one is the servant.

ThereminVox
2013-05-19, 15:07
For all of Ledo's fanatical adherence to his programming, it was nice to see that he's still got the analytical and tactical mind of a trained soldier. I was half expecting him to do the predictable hot-headed shounen thing of calling Ridget's bluff and diving for the cockpit. You know, because justice and all that. Instead he reviews the situation, and realizes that he's stuck. His cold reassessment of his relationship with the fleet, Amy included, puts a very complicated spin on the current state of things and gives him the perfect motivation to leave: He's now convinced that he will never belong with them, and he can't carry out his life's mission as long as he remains, but he still wants to defend them as his fellow humans.

An oddly heartwarming note: Rather than the Doctor, Ledo now considers Bevel to be the go-to "wise man" on Gargantia... Even when what he's seeking is military intel on mutant cephalopods.

Unknown, need more information. It could be like Ledo says, and that the whalesquid are just ignoring the human population because they vastly overpower them. Thus a superior ignoring an inferior as long as they stay inferior.

While this is probably a red herring, it is as logically valid an hypothesis as any other, which complicates things. Furthermore, this narrative would make the most sense to Ledo as he is currently unable to accept any alternative theory that might suggest the Hideauze are not aggressors by nature.

RainbowMagnet
2013-05-19, 15:20
Seems like some people's predictions about the Hideazu has come true more or less.


It may be that the whalesquid are juvenile versions of the Hideazu, since the ones we saw in space looked more like a nautilus and someone have giant flower shaped nests. I'm interested in seeing how they explain the whalesquid going into space later on, or possibly the other way around.

Pinion mentioned he has a dead older brother, and I wonder how that's going to factor into all this. Was he killed by the whalesquid? Somehow this has to do with Pinion's desire to go salvage in whalesquid habitats though I have to say Pinion's behavior in this episode really doesn't endear him to me. It feels like he's taking advantage of the situation and feeding off the ship owner's (forgot his name) greed for treasures. I just hope he has a darn good explanation for acting this way.

It's revenge. A bit earlier in the episode, Pinion mentioned someone telling him about the treasure hidden in the whalesquids lair right before dying. I'm guessing Pinion and his brother went salvaging and got attacked by whalesquids.

ThereminVox
2013-05-19, 15:24
I'm guessing Pinion and his brother went salvaging and got attacked by whalesquids.

This is also the second week in a row where it's explicitly stated that for all his interest in salvaging, Pinion himself "doesn't dive." I wouldn't be surprised if his brother's death has a lot to do with that.

Beltane70
2013-05-19, 15:30
Considering whalesquids don't have giant shells on their back it is safe to say that they were not the same, a subspecies perhaps.

There was also at least one type of Hideauze that we saw in the opening battle of the series that had no shells. It's possible that the Hideauze are technically more than a single species.

apotheosis
2013-05-19, 15:40
I am starting think Ledo got tossed back in time or to a parallel universe.

What if he is starting the entire Hideauze vs Humanity war?

kukuru
2013-05-19, 15:49
While this is probably a red herring, it is as logically valid an hypothesis as any other, which complicates things. Furthermore, this narrative would make the most sense to Ledo as he is currently unable to accept any alternative theory that might suggest the Hideauze are not aggressors by nature.

It's a lot easier to write about love and peace(and wholesome) then it is about war and politics.

But at least this show does it decently smartly. The act by the whalesquid is the equivalent of a military exercise (like US routinely does around the world) for a display of force that is basically saying "You got something to say punk?!"

Worse of all it clearly shows the whalesquids military agenda, as they basically entered garganta (air)space with no regard for negotiations. Aka "who's your daddy" snide.

Whalesquids are hardly blameless even if we don't know their situation, they clearly have military side to them (if not shown in a indirect way)

Writers are clearly a little too clever for their own good in this series. If they wanted to write a nice tale, they certainly are giving a lot of mixed undertones. Or perhaps that's the charm of this show.

It's clear no sides are very "peaceful". If anything the gargantia look like the most peaceful of the lot, actually running and hiding from practically anything that growls at them. And that really only works as long as you got enough natural resources to avoid conflict.

Dop
2013-05-19, 15:56
I've suspected for a while that the whole war with the Hideauze was the Galactic Alliance's fault. That they attacked the Hideauze on their first encounter and they retaliated in self defence, then it all escalated from there.

Whereas on the Gargantia their way of dealing with the Whalesquid is "if we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone", and maybe the whole belief that they're sacred sprang up as a way of persuading people to leave them alone.

To use a simple metaphor, leave the bee alone, and it won't sting you. Try to steal honey from their nest and they'll sting you even though it means their own death.

Dark Wing
2013-05-19, 16:19
I think they were hinting at this since the beginning with how the pirates and Gargantia co-exist.

It's maintaining a delicate balance but it seems Ledo has turned that balance on it's head yet again and now it looks like Gargantia may never be the same with fleet commander indisposed.

Irenesharda
2013-05-19, 16:57
I have to say that I both like and don't like this episode. I can see both sides of their argument, but I still don't like it. Gargantia seems to hold the whalesquids as sacred, and yet are afraid of them. Red is still a soldier and as he finds out that the whalesquids and the Hideauze are the same he swears to kill them all before they destroy the Earth. Gargantia seems to hold that as long as they don't bother them and keep all power off, they won't be harmed, but Red argues that they haven't been attacked yet because they aren't developed enough. Are the Hideauze attracted to energy and power? And since the Alliance is more developed and can't "power down completely" seeing as they are in Space, I can see this solution not working for the Alliance.

Gargantia is just too different, they live life too simply for Red's life rules to apply, and their rules wouldn't work in space. Red can't stop being a soldier, it's who he is. He's doing it to save lives, but Gargantia is trying to do the same. I don't think it was fair of Bevel and Amy to try to guilt Red as if by "being his own person" he wouldn't be a soldier. He's seen his people killed and ravaged by these things, he can't just let it go. And he doesn't want anything to happen to the people of Earth.

The old captain seems to be in trouble too, and in a way, his philosophy of "live and let live" is what's wrong with Gargantia. You can't just live life without a care in the world without ever trying to advance, just surviving. And then when trouble comes you hide your heads in the sand. That's no way to live.

I'm interested in how the Earth spawned the Hideauze and how they were able to go to Space? What will Pinion and Red find when they go into whalesquid territory? Will it be the secret behind the Hideauze?

The show is still in the just okay section, but it's beginning to pick up. I give this a 7.75/10.

creb
2013-05-19, 17:11
It'll be interesting to see where the show goes from here. It opened up the possibility that some time-warping may have occurred, meaning he may have inadvertently brought the Hideauz to Earth, while he himself was spit out closer to the present time.

Which opens up the possibility the Alliance doesn't even exist in this time period. Though I still think the climax of this show has a good chance of a Dances with the Wolves moment when the Alliance picks up his beacon.

I still think the show is meant to be uplifting, so in the end, I think Ledo will come around to the co-habit/co-prosperity way of thinking. The question is how much hurt is going to occur before he does.

It's probably a given that he's going on that ill-thought expedition, and it'll likely be too much for him to handle, which begs the question of how much damage is going to occur in the presumed reaction/retaliation from the Hideauz.

Of course, there's always the small possibility that they have no intention for this to be uplifting and most of these episodes were a cruel tease, and that the Hideauz will destroy Gargantia right before the Alliance shows up and finishes off the Hideauz and what's left of the Gargantia, and the show ends with Ledo finally getting his time off at Avalon. :heh:

Very doubtful, though I admit I'm not sure how all this is resolved in a nice touchy-feely way if Ledo starts escalating things into a full-out conflict. Perhaps Amy is killed, and it's just enough to shock him out of his rage? Though, unless the Hideauz are far more sentient than they appear, I get the feeling that once they become murderous, they're not going to stop just because Ledo suddenly has an epiphany. :p

Rennir
2013-05-19, 17:17
The fact that the Alliance lacks words for co-existence and co-prosperity makes me wonder how the war with the Hideauze started in the first place. Perhaps there was simply a misunderstanding at first, but instead of playing it cool like Gargantia did, the Alliance wanted revenge, which eventually blew up into an all out war.

Kirarakim
2013-05-19, 17:18
I wish I could have liked this episode more but after 2 episodes of not much happening, I am sorry to say the way this conflict just happened felt a bit contrived to me.

Key Board
2013-05-19, 17:18
While this is probably a red herring, it is as logically valid an hypothesis as any other, which complicates things. Furthermore, this narrative would make the most sense to Ledo as he is currently unable to accept any alternative theory that might suggest the Hideauze are not aggressors by nature.

The ones at space eat stars. Imagine the implications. I think that tells a lot about their mindset

Now granted, they might pull a twist and make the ones on Earth hippy pacifist loving versions of the ones in space

Maybe Redo really did bring one to Earth a thousand years ago, and maybe, just like Redo it went on a journey of self discovery before going.. screw war.. I'm going to chill on this planet.

creb
2013-05-19, 17:19
I wish I could have liked this episode more but after 2 episodes of not much happening, I am sorry to say the way this conflict just happened felt a bit contrived to me.

To be fair, it's a fictional tale, which by definition is going to be contrived. :heh:

Those episodes were obviously meant to set a mood, which is now broken, and is likely not to be seen again with only 4? 6? episodes left.

Also, a small part of me is hoping Gen was lying out his teeth when he said this wasn't going to be sad, and that the Hideauz end up winning, with Ledo realizing if he'd only left well enough alone, everyone would still be alive as he lays bleeding out in Chamber's defunct cockpit with a swarm of Hideauz approaching. :p

Revolutionist
2013-05-19, 17:22
Quite a few interesting tidbits this episode...

The Hideauze might explain why the Earthlings are stuck at a early 1900s level of technology. Ledo's comment to them about not being developed enough to be targeted, explain how civilization could regress so much as to go from nanomachines to having the most advanced technology be handheld radio transceivers...

Perhaps the only way for the humans who remained on Earth to survive was to discard all advanced technology and flood the planet?

Reckoner
2013-05-19, 17:23
I wish I could have liked this episode more but after 2 episodes of not much happening, I am sorry to say the way this conflict just happened felt a bit contrived to me.

Well can't change how you feel, but why do you say so? The whale squid being a Hideauz was heavily foreshadowed last episode and it came to head this episode. Ledo freaked out at the dinner scene, so no surprise that he'd freak out when he saw one.

Key Board
2013-05-19, 17:30
Quite a few interesting tidbits this episode...

The Hideauze might explain why the Earthlings are stuck at a early 1900s level of technology. Ledo's comment to them about not being developed enough to be targeted, explain how civilization could regress so much as to go from nanomachines to having the most advanced technology be handheld radio transceivers...

Perhaps the only way for the humans who remained on Earth to survive was to discard all advanced technology and flood the planet?

wouldn't surprise me

Abandoning advanced technology for the sake of peace, seems to be a them in Japanese RPGs. Especially the Tales series.

Goddamn Luddites.

Kirarakim
2013-05-19, 17:30
Well can't change how you feel, but why do you say so? The whale squid being a Hideauz was heavily foreshadowed last episode and it came to head this episode. Ledo freaked out at the dinner scene, so no surprise that he'd freak out when he saw one.

Just because it was foreshadowed one episode ago doesn't make it good writing.

I don't know maybe if they spent real time developing Ledo's interaction with Gargantia, not just swim suit parties and watching girls belly dance we could of had something more compelling than this.

Kanon
2013-05-19, 17:34
It's hard to tell who's in the right here. I find Gargantia's stance quite reasonable: the whalesquids were never hostile toward them and only attack when provoked, so they have no reason whatsoever to start a war against them. Not to mention, they lack the power to do so anyway. Ledo himself had a hard time killing one of them underwater. Co-existing with them is a better solution. On the other hand, perhaps Ledo's assumption that the Hideauze are leaving the humans of Earth alone because their civilization is not very advanced is true. At first, I thought he was completely mistaken, but what happened at the end of the episode got me thinking. The commander's first reflex was to power down the fleet completely, meaning the Hideauze might be attracted to energy and could very well turn down on the Gargantia when the fleet become more appetizing.

The fact the words co-existence and co-prosperity do not exist in the alliance's dictionary is pretty telling though. Humans were very likely the ones who started the conflict against the Hideauze for whatever reason, and it ended up biting them in the ass. Ledo may very well reproduce the same mistake on Earth.

The show is going in an interesting direction, with Ledo and Amy now having to separate. Ledo and Pinion's searches will most likely lead them to the truth behind the Hideauze and the whole conflict. The only way for this to end well is for Ledo to learn the humans were completely at fault, otherwise he'll never give up on his mission and it will have some very nasty repercussions.

Key Board
2013-05-19, 17:36
It's hard to tell who's in the right here. I find Gargantia's stance quite reasonable: the whalesquids were never hostile toward them and only attack when provoked, so they have no reason whatsoever to start a war against them. Not to mention, they lack the power to do so anyway. Ledo himself had a hard time killing one of them underwater. Co-existing with them is a better solution. On the other hand, perhaps Ledo's assumption that the Hideauze are leaving the humans of Earth alone because their civilization is not very advanced is true. At first, I thought he was completely mistaken, but what happened at the end of the episode got me thinking. The commander's first reflex was to power down the fleet completely, meaning the Hideauze might be attracted to energy and could very well turn down on the Gargantia when the fleet become more appetizing.

The fact the words co-existence and co-prosperity do not exist in the alliance's dictionary is pretty telling though. Humans were very likely the ones who started the conflict against the Hideauze for whatever reason, and it ended up biting them in the ass. Ledo may very well reproduce the same mistake on Earth.

The show is going in an interesting direction, with Ledo and Amy now having to separate. Ledo and Pinion's searches will most likely lead them to the truth behind the Hideauze and the whole conflict. The only way for this to end well is for Ledo to learn the humans were completely at fault, otherwise he'll never give up on his mission and it will have some very nasty repercussions.

Nah. I don't think that's how Urobutchi's mind operates

I think they'll show that Redo was right, but he'll have to make a painful choice to keep the peace.

remember Psycho=Pass's ending?

Puu
2013-05-19, 17:42
Not yet looking at all the comments, but watching this now and halfway through it... I'm just cringing and have to stop at times. Ledo is really looking for trouble :(

Edit: Just finished it :( Oh... I... feel the sadness from the episodes after this :(

Kanon
2013-05-19, 17:42
Nah. I don't think that's how Urobutchi's mind operates

I think they'll show that Redo was right, but he'll have to make a painful choice to keep the peace.

remember Psycho=Pass's ending?

I don't want to start this whole debate again, but I believed him when he said Gargantia would have a different feel from his other works. So I'm not expecting your usual Urobuchi tweest. I'm convinced this show will end well. Feel free to laugh at me if I'm proven wrong.

Reckoner
2013-05-19, 17:42
I don't know maybe if they spent real time developing Ledo's interaction with Gargantia, not just swim suit parties and watching girls belly dance we could of had something more compelling than this.

Besides some parts of episode 5, there were plenty of interactions with the Gargantia members. Episodes 4-6 in general were really about developing what you said they should be developing. Your issues with the fanservice in episodes 5 and 6 aside (I hated the fanservice in episode 5 and was lukewarm on the fanservice last week as well so I am not excusing it), I think it's a bit ridiculous to assert that they were not showing Ledo interact with the fleet in a meaningful way.

Irenesharda
2013-05-19, 17:45
Quite a few interesting tidbits this episode...

The Hideauze might explain why the Earthlings are stuck at a early 1900s level of technology. Ledo's comment to them about not being developed enough to be targeted, explain how civilization could regress so much as to go from nanomachines to having the most advanced technology be handheld radio transceivers...

Perhaps the only way for the humans who remained on Earth to survive was to discard all advanced technology and flood the planet?

I thought of that when he said it and suddenly it wasn't just an argument of "be nice to them and they'll be nice to you" it's more of, "if you keep on just 'surviving' from day to day and don't become too uppity, you won't incur the wrath of the mutant squids".

I don't know if I agree with that. Are earth people going to stay in the dark ages forever? Are they forever going to be afraid of these things? Gargantia is a simple world, that has good things, but it also just survives and hopes to live to another day. It would rather hide it's head than become stronger, so as not to incur the wrath of the enemy (be they pirates or whalesquids).

And the rules of Gargantia can't apply to the Alliance who need their technology to survive. And the Hideauze of space seem much more dangerous than that of Earth.

I have a feeling the Hideauze and the whalesquid feed on the same thing: Energy.

That is the only way it makes sense. The Hideauze live in space which of course wouldn't have food for real squid, but they tangle with human colonies, ships, and stars. That would suggest they are predatory for their energy (solar and electrical). The whalesquid follow the galaxy sea currents which we know is not only full of energy that the human ships use to power themselves, but this power is supplied by the nanomachines which happen to be the most sophisticated tech leftover since the Earth flooded. This would support my hypothesis that the Hideauze of Space and Earth both consume energy and technology, which will, like Red said, be the destruction of both groups of humans in the long run.

Kirarakim
2013-05-19, 17:48
Besides some parts of episode 5, there were plenty of interactions with the Gargantia members. Episodes 4-6 in general were really about developing what you said they should be developing. Your issues with the fanservice in episodes 5 and 6 aside (I hated the fanservice in episode 5 and was lukewarm on the fanservice last week as well so I am not excusing it), I think it's a bit ridiculous to assert that they were not showing Ledo interact with the fleet in a meaningful way.

But there was barely any real genuine interaction and it hurt this episode tremendously. Everything feels extremely rushed at this point in the story and that is because they wasted too much time in episode 5 and 6 on things that were unimportant.

So Ledo gets a job salvaging after one episode of searching and in the very next episode he discovers the hideauze and is in conflict with Gargantia. Okay!

Yeah this might be a problem of this series only being one cour, but Madoka Magica certainly didn't have this type of issue.

Heck in one episode we find out Pinion wants to look for treasure in whale squid territory and avenge his brother...I don't know maybe this could have been stuff used to develop his character before not just throw it at us in one episode.

Same with seeing the fleet commander is having a check up and in the very same episode he has a heart attack.

edit: I don't know perhaps this will lead to interesting things but I don't feel this was the smoothest of transitions at all.

Key Board
2013-05-19, 17:54
I thought of that when he said it and suddenly it wasn't just an argument of "be nice to them and they'll be nice to you" it's more of, "if you keep on just 'surviving' from day to day and don't become too uppity, you won't incur the wrath of the mutant squids".

I don't know if I agree with that. Are earth people going to stay in the dark ages forever? Are they forever going to be afraid of these things? Gargantia is a simple world, that has good things, but it also just survives and hopes to live to another day. It would rather hide it's head than become stronger, so as not to incur the wrath of the enemy (be they pirates or whalesquids).

And the rules of Gargantia can't apply to the Alliance who need their technology to survive. And the Hideauze of space seem much more dangerous than that of Earth.

I have a feeling the Hideauze and the whalesquid feed on the same thing: Energy.

That is the only way it makes sense. The Hideauze live in space which of course wouldn't have food for real squid, but they tangle with human colonies, ships, and stars. That would suggest they are predatory for their energy (solar and electrical). The whalesquid follow the galaxy sea currents which we know is not only full of energy that the human ships use to power themselves, but this power is supplied by the nanomachines which happen to be the most sophisticated tech leftover since the Earth flooded. This would support my hypothesis that the Hideauze of Space and Earth both consume energy and technology, which will, like Red said, be the destruction of both groups of humans in the long run.

Unless the show wants to preach a Luddite hippy theme, as preach that "oh, we don't need development. We are good enough as it is. We just need each other"

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceIsBad

I hope Urobutchi doesn't succumb to that route.

andyjay729
2013-05-19, 17:57
I still think the Hideauze aren't evil, but like the Vajra (and by extension, the aliens in Ender's Game). The Alliance will probably be the villains. Although that would be a rather clichéd plot.

That said, are the Hids sentient or not? If they feed on energy, they could be compared with bears and other potentially dangerous animals gorging on people food.

andyjay729
2013-05-19, 18:00
But there was barely any real genuine interaction and it hurt this episode tremendously. Everything feels extremely rushed at this point in the story and that is because they wasted too much time in episode 5 and 6 on things that were unimportant.

So Ledo gets a job salvaging after one episode of searching and in the very next episode he discovers the hideauze and is in conflict with Gargantia. Okay!

Yeah this might be a problem of this series only being one cour, but Madoka Magica certainly didn't have this type of issue.

Heck in one episode we find out Pinion wants to look for treasure in whale squid territory and avenge his brother...I don't know maybe this could have been stuff used to develop his character before not just throw it at us in one episode.

Same with seeing the fleet commander is having a check up and in the very same episode he has a heart attack.

edit: I don't know perhaps this will lead to interesting things but I don't feel this was the smoothest of transitions at all.

I haven't complained about this show as much as you have, but I'm totally with you there. The captain's health problems and Pinion's dead brother should've been covered earlier.

Dark Wing
2013-05-19, 18:06
But there was barely any real genuine interaction and it hurt this episode tremendously. Everything feels extremely rushed at this point in the story and that is because they wasted too much time in episode 5 and 6 on things that were unimportant.

So Ledo gets a job salvaging after one episode of searching and in the very next episode he discovers the hideauze and is in conflict with Gargantia. Okay!

Yeah this might be a problem of this series only being one cour, but Madoka Magica certainly didn't have this type of issue.

Heck in one episode we find out Pinion wants to look for treasure in whale squid territory and avenge his brother...I don't know maybe this could have been stuff used to develop his character before not just throw it at us in one episode.

Same with seeing the fleet commander is having a check up and in the very same episode he has a heart attack.

edit: I don't know perhaps this will lead to interesting things but I don't feel this was the smoothest of transitions at all.

So what you're basically saying is that they could have fit all that some where in the last two episodes, Correct?

If so, Then I agree they could've tossed a bit here and there but I wouldn't treat a missed opportunity as a black mark on the series as a whole.

Revolutionist
2013-05-19, 18:12
I thought of that when he said it and suddenly it wasn't just an argument of "be nice to them and they'll be nice to you" it's more of, "if you keep on just 'surviving' from day to day and don't become too uppity, you won't incur the wrath of the mutant squids".

I don't know if I agree with that. Are earth people going to stay in the dark ages forever? Are they forever going to be afraid of these things? Gargantia is a simple world, that has good things, but it also just survives and hopes to live to another day. It would rather hide it's head than become stronger, so as not to incur the wrath of the enemy (be they pirates or whalesquids).

And the rules of Gargantia can't apply to the Alliance who need their technology to survive. And the Hideauze of space seem much more dangerous than that of Earth.

I have a feeling the Hideauze and the whalesquid feed on the same thing: Energy.

That is the only way it makes sense. The Hideauze live in space which of course wouldn't have food for real squid, but they tangle with human colonies, ships, and stars. That would suggest they are predatory for their energy (solar and electrical). The whalesquid follow the galaxy sea currents which we know is not only full of energy that the human ships use to power themselves, but this power is supplied by the nanomachines which happen to be the most sophisticated tech leftover since the Earth flooded. This would support my hypothesis that the Hideauze of Space and Earth both consume energy and technology, which will, like Red said, be the destruction of both groups of humans in the long run.

Yeah, that theory about energy is very plausible and this episode's events further support that.

It's pretty obvious that the Gargantians at the very least know that at one point their civilization was a lot more advanced than they are now. That ship captain that wants to break off with Pinion and Ledo makes mention of it. The fact that he is willing to risk his ships and life for a chance at some of that "treasure" that had been inaccessible due to the Hideauze, tells me that their current level of technology isn't exactly a choice humans have made...

I don't think coexistence describes the relationship the Gargantians have with the Hideauze. The word implies a mutual agreement, and the reaction in the fleet didn't exactly give off that impression...

These people are clearly scared, as anyone would be in their position. They don't have the means to fight back, so all they can do is hide and hope for the best. At the same time, Ledo brings up a good point to Amy and her brother: "Do you people even have a vision to develop your civilization?" That's an integral part of what it is to be human, and something they Gargantians lack. Sure they are peaceful and seem like nice people overall, but the matter of fact is they live in rusty ships, scared of sea monsters, and are living day to day with no goal to strive toward.

Kirarakim
2013-05-19, 18:14
So what you're basically saying is that they could have fit all that some where in the last two episodes, Correct?

If so, Then I agree they could've tossed a bit here and there but I wouldn't treat a missed opportunity as a black mark on the series as a whole.

I honestly would have almost entirely rewritten the last two episodes to both develop Ledo (which they mostly did a good job of) but also develop his relationship with some of the other characters in Gargantia. Let me get to know more about Pinion, Bellows, and Ridget, etc.

Personally I still think the best moments of the series were Ledo's talks with Bevel in episode 4.

That being said I don't think the series as a whole is ruined. Yeah I am happy they got back into the plot but it just felt really rushed to me. That doesn't mean that things won't get better just because we have a rushed beginning of the conflict.

Key Board
2013-05-19, 18:20
I still think the Hideauze aren't evil, but like the Vajra (and by extension, the aliens in Ender's Game). The Alliance will probably be the villains. Although that would be a rather clichéd plot.


or they could be like Starship Trooper bugs, the BETA from Muvluv, the Blue from Blue Gender, the Skruggs from Heroman, The Invaders from Getter Robot, ect who are clearly the villains


That said, are the Hids sentient or not? If they feed on energy, they could be compared with bears and other potentially dangerous animals gorging on people food.

They are clearly sentient. I think the word you are looking for is sapient.

They seem sapient enough to make space fortresses, carriers and do spacefaring

ChainLegacy
2013-05-19, 18:31
Back to the awesome main plot with this episode, thankfully.

I bet that Pinion and company will end up unearthing something from the whale squid territory that gives clues to the nature of the Hideauze and perhaps even why there was an exodus from Earth in the first place. I also found the internal politics with the fleet in danger of breaking apart intriguing. Ledo has brought a whole new set of possibilities to these people and has opened the door for those with greater ambitions than maintaining the status quo. Ultimately, when even Ledo's advanced and mighty spacefaring civilization is left in a constant struggle with the Hideauze, it is going to be a bumpy and dangerous decision to make.

On the other hand, it is very much a human desire to control and be the masters of the land. Not unexpected at all that people would hop on board to the idea of fighting back now that they might have the firepower. Certainly, we modern humans have been known to both exploit and revel in our ability to easily dominate creatures who could once have eaten us for lunch or been way out of our league (big game hunters, whalers, etc). Humanity wants both technological prowess and to stand alone at the top of the food chain, for better or worse. I really liked seeing this schism in Gargantia for that reason.

Funkatron
2013-05-19, 18:33
Yeah, that theory about energy is very plausible and this episode's events further support that.

It's pretty obvious that the Gargantians at the very least know that at one point their civilization was a lot more advanced than they are now. That ship captain that wants to break off with Pinion and Ledo makes mention of it. The fact that he is willing to risk his ships and life for a chance at some of that "treasure" that had been inaccessible due to the Hideauze, tells me that their current level of technology isn't exactly a choice humans have made...

I don't think coexistence describes the relationship the Gargantians have with the Hideauze. The word implies a mutual agreement, and the reaction in the fleet didn't exactly give off that impression...

These people are clearly scared, as anyone would be in their position. They don't have the means to fight back, so all they can do is hide and hope for the best. At the same time, Ledo brings up a good point to Amy and her brother: "Do you people even have a vision to develop your civilization?" That's an integral part of what it is to be human, and something they Gargantians lack. Sure they are peaceful and seem like nice people overall, but the matter of fact is they live in rusty ships, scared of sea monsters, and are living day to day with no goal to strive toward.

They know and are actively trying to reclaim the knowledge through scavenging. There are 3 things that hinder them, though:

Pirates: They try to keep out of the pirates radar
Their reliance on the galaxy for power
Their fear of entering Whalesquid territory. Pinion was pretty sure there were treasures (which I'm assuming is higher level tech) near where the whalesquids live, but they actively stay out their territory both out of superstition and fear


I agree what others have said that they keep up to survive but it seems like some, like Pinion and that one fleet dude, want to forge ahead at a much faster pace and scavenge more "treasures"

Irenesharda
2013-05-19, 18:52
Yeah, that theory about energy is very plausible and this episode's events further support that.

It's pretty obvious that the Gargantians at the very least know that at one point their civilization was a lot more advanced than they are now. That ship captain that wants to break off with Pinion and Ledo makes mention of it. The fact that he is willing to risk his ships and life for a chance at some of that "treasure" that had been inaccessible due to the Hideauze, tells me that their current level of technology isn't exactly a choice humans have made...

I don't think coexistence describes the relationship the Gargantians have with the Hideauze. The word implies a mutual agreement, and the reaction in the fleet didn't exactly give off that impression...

These people are clearly scared, as anyone would be in their position. They don't have the means to fight back, so all they can do is hide and hope for the best. At the same time, Ledo brings up a good point to Amy and her brother: "Do you people even have a vision to develop your civilization?" That's an integral part of what it is to be human, and something they Gargantians lack. Sure they are peaceful and seem like nice people overall, but the matter of fact is they live in rusty ships, scared of sea monsters, and are living day to day with no goal to strive toward.

Another part that I found interesting was that the Red makes the argument that the Gargantians care more about the sacred "whalesquid" than they do about their fellow human beings who are dying everyday because of the Hideauze. The Gargantians simply state that it's not their problem. However, if these Earth Hideauze are simply chaos waiting to happen then they will one day become a problem as Red says they will be.

The Hideauze are his territory and he knows how dangerous they can be. From what Red states the Hideauze are aware enough to not only have different fighting types, but organized armies, bases, and plans of attack. Do the ones of Earth have the same sentience?

And know this, despite any sort of acclimation Red has made to Earth life, he will never be able to live on the same planet as the Hideauze peacefully. He has fought them for too long and lost too many fellow soldiers to them. And if the Gargantians live through half the stuff that he has had too, they would agree. I can go with co-habitation and everything, but there is a point where you can take it too far. Especially if I must live in fear of said species.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-19, 19:06
My second thought was that maybe Ledo was too rash and should take a few days to gather intel before deciding on a course of action.

My first thought, OTOH, was that he should have put the destruction of Gargantia on the table, if they kept getting in his way. The Hideauze are mortal enemies, not to him personally, but to his whole civilization. If he can destroy a nest, especially a nest the GA doesn't know about, he should. And if Gargantia wants to side with the Hideauze, they're the enemy too.

Thinking about it, they run roughshod over him because he's nice and restrained. They submit to the pirates because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. They submit to the Hideauze because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. Well, maybe Ledo should sink a ship or two - maybe Gargantia will start to see things his way then.


The fact the words co-existence and co-prosperity do not exist in the alliance's dictionary is pretty telling though. Humans were very likely the ones who started the conflict against the Hideauze for whatever reason, and it ended up biting them in the ass. Ledo may very well reproduce the same mistake on Earth.

Yeah, well, it's also telling he finds it strange to see humans fighting each other.

Terrestrial Dream
2013-05-19, 19:07
I honestly would have almost entirely rewritten the last two episodes to both develop Ledo (which they mostly did a good job of) but also develop his relationship with some of the other characters in Gargantia. Let me get to know more about Pinion, Bellows, and Ridget, etc.

Personally I still think the best moments of the series were Ledo's talks with Bevel in episode 4.

That being said I don't think the series as a whole is ruined. Yeah I am happy they got back into the plot but it just felt really rushed to me. That doesn't mean that things won't get better just because we have a rushed beginning of the conflict. I do see your point, few things in this episode would have been better if it was introduced earlier. I am not going to dismiss the last few few episodes as I think they did decent job of Ledo's attempt to integrate into the fleet. I really felt that last few episodes goal was just to focus on Ledo, not other characters. So focusing on other characters, while nice as it would have been, doesn't seem to have been the writer's goal.
I especially agree on Ridget, currently we don't know much about her. It would have quite nice to see her character fleshed out as she is likely to be a major character.

Aside from those flaws, I still believe that the show overall is on a nice track.

Mangaka-chan
2013-05-19, 19:25
At the same time, Ledo brings up a good point to Amy and her brother: "Do you people even have a vision to develop your civilization?" That's an integral part of what it is to be human, and something they Gargantians lack. Sure they are peaceful and seem like nice people overall, but the matter of fact is they live in rusty ships, scared of sea monsters, and are living day to day with no goal to strive toward.

That's another point that struck me while I was watching this episode. Ledo's people advocate for the advance of humanity, to expanse and colonize more of space. The Gargantian on the other hand seem quite content where they are, though there definitely are those who would like to advance themselves (financially or otherwise) as well. And while these impulses are very human, and the drive to advancing civilization has its positive side, I wonder if the negative side of a push for advancement will also be discussed in the show?

The Industrial Revolution brought about a lot of the modern advances we enjoy today, but at a heavy human cost, not to mention inflicting a lot of damage to our planet in the process. The ice age that eventually gave way to the water world the fleet lives on might've been as a result of human action rather than any "anomaly with the sun" that Ledo's government claim is the cause, and the fruit of the Galactic Alliance's ideology was what forced drove them to leave Earth in the first place.

Jetzero Infinity
2013-05-19, 19:31
Wow. Things got totally real, really fast and it was glorious.

I definently didn't see the thing with the Hideauze being considered sacred on Earth coming, but it was a great way to stir up conflict over the war, and get Ledo refocused on his mission to destroy them. Should be really interesting to see where that leads him after spending so much time mellowing out, and it's also interesting that Pinion wants to make use of Ledo's hatred to go scalvage in Hideauze/Whalesquid areas. With the episode ending in the Fleet Commander getting a heart attack I'm pretty sure they'll be going ahead with it even though he told them no. Obviously that's not going to end well for all of them but I'm really curious to see where this is all headed. We're definently in pure Urobuchi territory now.

MeggieMay
2013-05-19, 19:52
So, did anyone else notice that Ridget has a wall map behind her in this episode that seems to show land (a chain of islands, to be specific)? There's a clear, large, shot of it at the 8:34 mark, for anyone who wants to see what I'm talking about. It could be the map isn't current but it does raise the question of just what the map is of/and or came from?

Something else about this scene that I noticed as well. No one wants to just take Ledo to the Fleet Commander and let him talk it out with him. I think this is a big mistake being made on councils part (I think that's what these guys are - a group of sub Fleet commanders that are acting as a council). What I took away from the scene with the Fleet Commander and the Doctor (other than it was a clear foretelling of a future problem), was that he isn't as set in his ways on this issue as some of the others and might have tried to work something out. I didn't take his attitude to mean he thought they had to keep living the status quo but that what he was saying is he'd play it by ear and then decided how to handle things. He doesn't seem unreasonable to me which is what makes his having a heart attack at this point a big problem. BTW, my thought when the Commander said that splitting off ship would leave Gargantia in a bad defensive position was that if Ledo knew this he would actually side with the Commander and try to figure out a different strategy. Ledo wants to resume his war with the Hideauze but he also wants to protect humans. Ledo isn't going to want to weaken the Garganitia's deference here and actually within known story line at this point he doesn't know about this since he thinks he's just going to go out with Pinions ship, not Flange's group as well.

ustatsu
2013-05-19, 19:54
^
was about to post this. If this is an actual map, then their whole way of life doesn't make any sense. Why live in fear of pirates and squids if you could just go on land? Technological progress would also be a lot easier that way.

Dark Wing
2013-05-19, 19:55
My first thought, OTOH, was that he should have put the destruction of Gargantia on the table, if they kept getting in his way. The Hideauze are mortal enemies, not to him personally, but to his whole civilization. If he can destroy a nest, especially a nest the GA doesn't know about, he should. And if Gargantia wants to side with the Hideauze, they're the enemy too.

Thinking about it, they run roughshod over him because he's nice and restrained. They submit to the pirates because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. They submit to the Hideauze because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. Well, maybe Ledo should sink a ship or two - maybe Gargantia will start to see things his way then.

So you're welling to use your hyper advanced super weapon to strong arm a relatively primitive civilization? I don't know if I should call this evil or just general dickery...:rolleyes:

Jan-Poo
2013-05-19, 20:01
Unknown, need more information. It could be like Ledo says, and that the whalesquid are just ignoring the human population because they vastly overpower them. Thus a superior ignoring an inferior as long as they stay inferior.

I think that what Ledo said is very important. That would be too much of a conjecture for him to say that without any reason to think so.

There is probably some kind of technology that automatically causes the Hideauze to rage and attack humans.

So I don't think that it was simply the alliance that attacked the Hideauze first. The Hideauze really are the enemy of a humanity that wants to develop over a certain limit.

There's a further hint to that. Pinion believes that in the area infested by Hideauze there are even greater "treasures" to salvage, and it seems his brother saw that. Those "treasures" are likely the remnants of a technology that the Hideauze are attracted to. Which would explain why they are particularly concentrated there.

Nah. I don't think that's how Urobutchi's mind operates

I think they'll show that Redo was right, but he'll have to make a painful choice to keep the peace.


Yeah, pretty much that.


Just because it was foreshadowed one episode ago doesn't make it good writing.

I don't know maybe if they spent real time developing Ledo's interaction with Gargantia, not just swim suit parties and watching girls belly dance we could of had something more compelling than this.

I don't see anything that would make me think that this episode had anything that could be considered bad writing. The pacing wasn't particularly rushed nor anything and there is absolutely nothing wrong in alternating peaceful scenes with more tense ones, it's a solid format of many successful stories.

Moreover it's not like this recent event came out of the blue, it was foreshadowed enough.

I have the feeling that you didn't get over the disappointment of the previous episodes and that that is affecting negatively the judgement of this latest one. It doesn't help the fact that you keep mentioning them as a reason to justify your critique of this episode.



Regarding Ledo, I really liked how this episode portrayed his determination and his absolute unquestioning devotion to his cause. He is a lot scarier than I originally thought. Even though the recent events seemed to have mellowed him down, his beliefs and convictions are still incredibly solid. He didn't even hesitate a bit in front of the prospect of abandoning Amy.

It's really very sad but this story does a good job at making you understand his point of view. In one of my earlier comments I pointed how the Alliance seem to glorify humanity and its role in the universe, their adopted symbol is a very good indication of that. They have pride and they can't accept to submit to another species as the rulers of their environment. Ledo has always lived according to that mentality, rejecting that to him would be most likely equivalent to us rejecting the values of democracy and freedom.

He simply cannot accept the fact that Gargantians are fine living their lives mindlessly without any project of advancement least they'll get in the way of more powerful beings. I sympathize with his view.

Though, from a practical standpoint I simply can't agree with his suicidal crusade.
We have seen that there are entire swarms of whalesquids and while they aren't as strong as their spacefaring counterparts they are still a serious threat to Chamber and an absolutely lethal one to everyone else.
His plan to single handedly wage war against all the Hideauze on earth isn't realistic, especially considering that he doesn't have an adequate logistic support.
There was no way that he could have defended the whole fleet against that huge swarm. What is he planning to do once there won't be any floating platforms left to rest on?

I'm amazed that Chamber doesn't suggest to wait for directions from the Alliance before initiating a war in an unknown territory, I am also amazed by how Pinion and that other guy whose name I don't remember are willingly to go on war against the whalesquid, especially after they have seen that they can organize a counteroffensive so quickly after just one of them dying.
Perhaps they are overestimating Chamber. Well I can't be completely certain, but it doesn't look to me that this will be going well.

I think that the timely earth attack of Fairlock will result in a part of the fleet following Pinion and Ledo. I wonder what Amy will do then. Perhaps she will decide to follow Ledo even if she doesn't agree with him just to stay near him.

They will most likely explore the area protected by Hideauze where powerful technologies lie. This will probably lead them to learn important facts about what actually happened to Earth in the past and what roles the Hideauze have on it.

So, did anyone else notice that Ridget has a wall map behind her in this episode that seems to show land (a chain of islands, to be specific)? There's a clear, large, shot of it at the 8:34 mark, for anyone who wants to see what I'm talking about. It could be the map isn't current but it does raise the question of just what the map is of/and or came from?

Yeah I noticed that too. According to that map there is still land. I hope this issue will be addressed in the future.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-19, 20:13
I'm glad the map has not gone unnoticed. I couldn't really think of a good explanation for it, though... if that really is dry land that's showing, it's hardly a secret hanging its picture up on the wall.

Unless it's not a current map, or is a map of some other thing than dry land (though the colors are fairly standard).

Anyway:

http://i.imgur.com/THs2Gus.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/THs2Gus.jpg)

Nvis
2013-05-19, 20:14
Hideauze are the Anti-Spirals of Gurren Lagann!

Irenesharda
2013-05-19, 20:20
I think that what Ledo said is very important. That would be too much of a conjecture for him to say that without any reason to think so.

There is probably some kind of technology that automatically causes the Hideauze to rage and attack humans.

So I don't think that it was simply the alliance that attacked the Hideauze first. The Hideauze really are the enemy of a humanity that wants to develop over a certain limit.

There's a further hint to that. Pinion believes that in the area infested by Hideauze there are even greater "treasures" to salvage, and it seems his brother saw that. Those "treasures" are likely the remnants of a technology that the Hideauze are attracted to. Which would explain why they are particularly concentrated there.


Regarding Ledo, I really liked how this episode portrayed his determination and his absolute unquestioning devotion to his cause. He is a lot scarier than I originally thought. Even though the recent events seemed to have mellowed him down, his beliefs and convictions are still incredibly solid. He didn't even hesitate a bit in front of the prospect of abandoning Amy.

It's really very sad but this story does a good job at making you understand his point of view. In one of my earlier comments I pointed how the Alliance seem to glorify humanity and its role in the universe, their adopted symbol is a very good indication of that. They have pride and they can't accept to submit to another species as the rulers of their environment. Ledo has always lived according to that mentality, rejecting that to him would be most likely equivalent to us rejecting the values of democracy and freedom.

He simply cannot accept the fact that Gargantians are fine living their lives mindlessly without any project of advancement least they'll get in the way of more powerful beings. I sympathize with his view.

Though, from a practical standpoint I simply can't agree with his suicidal crusade.
We have seen that there are entire swarms of whalesquids and while they aren't as strong as their spacefaring counterparts they are still a serious threat to Chamber and an absolutely lethal one to everyone else.
His plan to single handedly wage war against all the Hideauze on earth isn't realistic, especially considering that he doesn't have an adequate logistic support.
There was no way that he could have defended the whole fleet against that huge swarm. What is he planning to do once there won't be any floating platforms left to rest on?

I'm amazed that Chamber doesn't suggest to wait for directions from the Alliance before initiating a war in an unknown territory, I am also amazed by how Pinion and that other guy whose name I don't remember are willingly to go on war against the whalesquid, especially after they have seen that they can organize a counteroffensive so quickly after just one of them dying.
Perhaps they are overestimating Chamber. Well I can't be completely certain, but it doesn't look to me that this will be going well.

I think that the timely heart attack of Fairlock will result in a part of the fleet following Pinion and Ledo. I wonder what Amy will do then. Perhaps she will decide to follow Ledo even if she doesn't agree with him just to stay near him.

They will most likely explore the area protected by Hideauze where powerful technologies lie. This will probably lead them to learn important facts about what actually happened to Earth in the past and what roles the Hideauze have on it.



I agree with a lot you just said. I however don't think that Red considers it a "suicidal mission". In his mind, it's his only option. He has to destroy the Hideauze before they destroy Earth, that's all there is to it. He can't risk them hurting the humans of Earth, or eventually being able to join their brethren and kill more of his fellow soldiers. It doesn't matter if he dies or not, right now he's the only one standing between them and the rest of the Earth who have no power to even think about defeating these things.

And he did ask Chamber several times if there was any response to his beacon or if Chamber had figured out where he was yet in the galaxy. So he obviously knows that he needs reinforcements but he has no way of getting them right now, so he's just going it alone.

However, a line from Ridget did strike my interest. She didn't forbid Red from killing the squid, despite them being supposedly "sacred". (Honestly, for swimming "good luck charms", the Gargantians are pretty afraid of them.) She said that if they attacked the fleet then he was free to do as he wished, but until then she would keep him on a short leash (as if Chamber would allow her to hurt his charge...:rolleyes: ) so that makes me think that at one point or another the Earth Hideauze are going to attack Gargantia, and that Red will be the only one who can save them until/unless the Alliance shows up.

MeggieMay
2013-05-19, 20:22
While there's still land, I really can't see everyone trying to live on it. The map isn't showing how viable it is to live on and it doesn't look like enough land to put everyone onto and survive. Best use of the land in the map, IMO, would be for groups of people to move and raise food on it, if possible.

The main confusing thing to me is that Amy said "land was mythical," so what gives? I really think Amy was telling the truth from her perspective which makes me wonder has she never seen that map? Then again, even if she has maybe she doesn't realizes the map is showing land (I think Ledo may not realize what he's looking at either, seeing he really has little reason to know how to read a terrestrial map). Does no one realize what that map is telling them or is it a case that only a few in charge know (thus why it's posted in the Command ship) and the rest of the ship population is being kept in the dark? If so, why is that happening?

You know, this show really needs another season! They've got a good foundation for a universe going on here. I'm hoping the pre-orders for DVDs and potential ratings are enough to get another season greenlit.

Grey
2013-05-19, 20:24
Wow. Local hordes of Hideauze, a splitting of the fleet that leaves Gargantia defenseless, and Pinion, Flange, and Ledo targeting the Hideauze nest? I guess the pirates will target the weaker fleet after the split too.

Time for things to go south!


Edit: I didn't notice the land map. Maybe that's Hideauze territory? So, just like in space, the Hideauze might stand in the way of vital resources.

mikeomni
2013-05-19, 20:27
Thinking about it, they run roughshod over him because he's nice and restrained. They submit to the pirates because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. They submit to the Hideauze because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. Well, maybe Ledo should sink a ship or two - maybe Gargantia will start to see things his way then.

Yeah, well, it's also telling he finds it strange to see humans fighting each other.

The story exposes the difficulty in deciding which is the correct action. In the real world, I've seen people ignore horrible problems for as long as they can live within their pocket of the world. I'm talking about situations where people are occasionally found murdered in empty lots on the way to your school. The police get notified, the adults talk about it in hushed tones, and us kids were told not to worry about it as it is someone else problem. When you're the not the ones holding the power to change your environment, you get the heck out of the way or try not stand out too much lest you become the next victim. You hope and pray your luck holds. Did my family live in fear? No. I tend to remember my childhood to be peaceful. Not main street USA peaceful, but there were happy memories there and people lived reasonably for the circumstance. Actually, the most fear I felt at that time was in grade school when I saw an American F4 flying overhead as a show of support to the local government. It was a whole new level of escalation.

When I got into high school we had military training in the curriculum. That's when I got the funny notion, why not just go to the countryside and hunt down all the baddies then be done with it? If they can supply a school with an armory, what's the real military got? A friend of mine pointed out that in his parent's province, the military does as much damage as the local insurgents. If there's an 'encounter' in the town you're in, you can't go outside and go about your business. Hunger kills just as effectively as a bullet, though it may take a bit longer. Fighting was no guarantee of peace to come. The immediate effect was pain and suffering, which was what you were trying your best to avoid. I'm told they actually welcomed both military and insurgent people knowing who they were during festivals to keep everyone "happy." People find solutions that to an outsider don't make sense.

Back to Gargantia, from their point of view, they have not seen the atrocities Hideauze and Alliance have inflicted on each other. All they have is the word of a single stranger. In their view, even one Whalesquid is an overwhelming force which cannot be met with the same. To Bellow's point, Pinion's brother was something that couldn't be helped.

Even Ledo doesn't have the firepower to take all those Hideauze on. The MC was designed to fight in the vacuum of space. When he saw the numbers swimming under the fleet, he must have understood how difficult this was going to be. At best, he'd have to fight guerrilla style. So he's enlisted (though Pinion says it's the other way around) the help of willing allies to further his military objective. Does that result in less suffering down the line? Probably not. Is it the correct solution? A fighting man would say yes, and I sympathize. But opinion varies with the guy receiving the results.

andyjay729
2013-05-19, 20:30
So, did anyone else notice that Ridget has a wall map behind her in this episode that seems to show land (a chain of islands, to be specific)? There's a clear, large, shot of it at the 8:34 mark, for anyone who wants to see what I'm talking about. It could be the map isn't current but it does raise the question of just what the map is of/and or came from?

Something else about this scene that I noticed as well. No one wants to just take Ledo to the Fleet Commander and let him talk it out with him. I think this is a big mistake being made on councils part (I think that's what these guys are - a group of sub Fleet commanders that are acting as a council). What I took away from the scene with the Fleet Commander and the Doctor (other than it was a clear foretelling of a future problem), was that he isn't as set in his ways on this issue as some of the others and might have tried to work something out. I didn't take his attitude to mean he thought they had to keep living the status quo but that what he was saying is he'd play it by ear and then decided how to handle things. He doesn't seem unreasonable to me which is what makes his having a heart attack at this point a big problem. BTW, my thought when the Commander said that splitting off ship would leave Gargantia in a bad defensive position was that if Ledo knew this he would actually side with the Commander and try to figure out a different strategy. Ledo wants to resume his war with the Hideauze but he also wants to protect humans. Ledo isn't going to want to weaken the Garganitia's deference here and actually within known story line at this point he doesn't know about this since he thinks he's just going to go out with Pinions ship, not Flange's group as well.

Glad to see I wasn't the only who noticed the map. So there is dry land after all? What implications will this have later on?

ThereminVox
2013-05-19, 20:31
That's another point that struck me while I was watching this episode. Ledo's people advocate for the advance of humanity, to expanse and colonize more of space. The Gargantian on the other hand seem quite content where they are, though there definitely are those who would like to advance themselves (financially or otherwise) as well. And while these impulses are very human, and the drive to advancing civilization has its positive side, I wonder if the negative side of a push for advancement will also be discussed in the show?

I think there already is some balance there. For all of the romantic portrayal of the Earthlings' society of coexistence, there is a focus on the pursuit of individual fulfillment that Ledo's people lack (at least those bred as soldiers), because "for humanity" is the only cause they can afford to consider.

More than ever, the two worldviews seem irreconcilable, but each with merit, in that what makes one society happy may not satisfy the other. Avalon has mastered life among the stars, and struggles for control of the galaxy itself. In a way, it's a monument to human achievement. To them, the Earthlings' willingness to cede vast expanses of their own planet, and to technologically stagnate simply because they lack the will to struggle for anything greater must seem like the worst kind of squandered potential. Yet now Ledo has seen with his own eyes just how fulfilled and prosperous a society can be when living in harmony with its natural surroundings, rather than bending it to their will. You can make arguments for either side.

If Ledo is ever able to get his head around the vast cultural divide, he'll possess a perspective that few humans in Suisei no Gargantia's universe can lay claim to.

Meanwhile, I would not be surprised if coexistence with the Hideauze is impossible for the Galactic Alliance at this stage. Even if humanity began the war, as everything in this episode suggest, we just watched the death of a single whalesquid bring a horde of them to Gargantia's doorstep. Even if they aren't "naturally aggressive," they seem ruthlessly territorial. It may be generations too late for a cease-fire, at least for the space-faring humans.

Witch of Uncertainty
2013-05-19, 20:35
Very enjoyable episode. Glad to see the plot starting to kick in.
I don't know why, but I really like how angry he was when he was stopped. The "Don't touch me!" made me very, well, maybe not happy is the right word, but I really liked it.

yankky5
2013-05-19, 20:41
Man thats why I never really did like politics especially in a setting where war is inevitable. Anyway so the cultural exchange trip for ledo seems to end at this ep..... Pinion goes out seek untouched tech and a personal vandeta for his borthers death, gargantia is gonna be separated and maybe a civil war and most of all it seems squids are now part of the list of to watch out cretures that will destroy mankind. the list includes aliens, demi-humans, gods, monkeys, bugs, zombies, mutans and everything that goes bumb in the night!!

Jan-Poo
2013-05-19, 20:55
I agree with a lot you just said. I however don't think that Red considers it a "suicidal mission". In his mind, it's his only option. He has to destroy the Hideauze before they destroy Earth, that's all there is to it. He can't risk them hurting the humans of Earth, or eventually being able to join their brethren and kill more of his fellow soldiers. It doesn't matter if he dies or not, right now he's the only one standing between them and the rest of the Earth who have no power to even think about defeating these things.

Oh yeah, I agree that Ledo probably doesn't think that it is a suicidal mission, but that's precisely because he doesn't recognize it as such that I criticize him.
This is probably due to the fact that he is an indoctrinated soldier through an thorough, He can only think about killing Hideauze and doesn't have much of a grasp of what strategy is.
I'm pretty sure he even disagreed with the Alliance's decision to retreat after the failed attempt to destroy the Hideauze nest in the first episode. If it was for him he would have ordered to keep attacking.


However, a line from Ridget did strike my interest. She didn't forbid Red from killing the squid, despite them being supposedly "sacred". (Honestly, for swimming "good luck charms", the Gargantians are pretty afraid of them.) She said that if they attacked the fleet then he was free to do as he wished, but until then she would keep him on a short leash (as if Chamber would allow her to hurt his charge...:rolleyes: ) so that makes me think that at one point or another the Earth Hideauze are going to attack Gargantia, and that Red will be the only one who can save them until/unless the Alliance shows up.

I wasn't particularly surprised. I think that the Gargantians are being misunderstood a lot.
They aren't fundamentalist pacifist, and they aren't superstitious barbarians either.
They are simply pretty pragmatic and make a priority out of avoiding conflicts.

It's not like they revere the whalesquids, they simply know that it's better to leave them alone if they want to avoid problems. But in the end what they value the most is their own life and their well-being. If the whalesquids decide to kill them all, then they'll feel that they have no choice but to fight back.

If they however are given the option then they rather steer clear of them even if that means renouncing to powerful lost technologies.

Their attitude with the pirates is similar. They know they can't avoid conflicts with them, so they try to keep those conflicts to the minimum, even if that means that once in a while they will have to pay a "tribute" to them in the form of stolen salvaged goods.

Even that is a form of co-existence. Not something that I quite agree with though. it's simply... pragmatic and completely devoid of ideals.

Dark Wing
2013-05-19, 20:55
Glad to see I wasn't the only who noticed the map. So there is dry land after all? What implications will this have later on?

My guess is that it's little piece of land not large enough to support a large number of people and when talking about land being a myth maybe Amy was talking about continents.

MeggieMay
2013-05-19, 20:59
They are clearly sentient. I think the word you are looking for is sapient.

They seem sapient enough to make space fortresses, carriers and do spacefaring

Where/when did the show say or show that? I know someone said Ledo said as much but I don't remember that said or shown in the series. I thought the Hideouze were shown to just be floating out in space eating stuff in episode 1, not having space ships. Can someone direct me to where it is at in the CR version of the show? Also, if this information comes from the official site, someone please point me over to where I can find it there (I have to switch browsers to go look at the site).

BTW, I always meant to say that the Hideouze reminded me of the antagonists space alien species in Gunbuster, FWIW, which I just finished seeing earlier this year (though I guess those were suppose to be based on insects, not aquatic life). Either way, beings don't have to be all that sapient to have strategies to defend itself. Insects and aquatic life both (think Ants, Bees and I've seen some recent stuff in the news about fish that have been shown to move the way they do so they can best round up food). What we saw the Whalesquid do could have been a primal reaction to the death of their fellow pod memember verses a thought out military campaign (because Chamber admitted, in his own way, that the WhaleSquid and the Hideouze are related but not the same and not the same is important here in my opinion). I do think the Hideouze are more sapient than say sharks but I cann't shake the feeling that one of the big problems with is that they are really just top of the food chain creatures who do what they do to survive and can't be negotiated with because they aren't sapient enough to do so. However, if they're building space ships that shows that they should be able to be approached in some manner to negotiate some sort of way to co-exist.

At this point I think my main issue with what's being presented in this episode is that neither Ledo or Garganitia take on how to deal with things seems to be the correct one. Ledo's wrong, IMO, in that he doesn't have enough tactical backup to start up a war but Garganitia is also wrong in trying to avoid the Whalesquids completely and not try and re-gain some of their lost tech. A lot of how things need to be dealt with depends on just how Sapient the Hideouze are and if they do have the ability to communicate, what there take is on co-existence. As another poster mentioned earlier, the Alliance's situation and the one on Earth isn't exactly the same. If the Hideiouze aren't sapient enough to communicate then the Alliance may not have a good way to approach the issue other than the one they took. Even if they are sapient enough to communicate, the Hideouze in space may have no reason to not just annihilate the humans (they may see them as nothing more than bugs or cows - something they don't even think about or as a food commodity). However, the Whalesquid isn't in the same situation. Space is large and infinite, a planet like Earth is not. IMO a balance could be struck here in both parties interests, where there may be no good reason for either side in Space to be able to do that.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-19, 20:59
Regarding that map. I'd like to advance the hypothesis that perhaps it isn't "land" what we see there.

MeggieMay
2013-05-19, 21:08
Regarding that map. I'd like to advance the hypothesis that perhaps it isn't "land" what we see there.

That's a reasonable hypothesis, as well. The reason I'm not leaning towards it at this point is that in my opinion the shapes on the map look too organic to be ship flotillas. There's also a map in the room a bit later (it's on the other large wall) of Gargantia and you can see how looks from a aerial view. Ship fleets don't really have room to curve around like some of the "islands" on the map seem to be doing. So that's why I'm leaning towards those being islands, though after re-looking over the maps it is possible that the land in them isn't completely above water at this point (but that land is awfully close to breaking out above the ocean surface, if that's the case).

mikeomni
2013-05-19, 21:09
Regarding that map. I'd like to advance the hypothesis that perhaps it isn't "land" what we see there.

Are you suggesting those are sea mounts? Doesn't make sense why they are brown on blue.

Irenesharda
2013-05-19, 21:15
Oh yeah, I agree that Ledo probably doesn't think that it is a suicidal mission, but that's precisely because he doesn't recognize it as such that I criticize him.
This is probably due to the fact that he is an indoctrinated soldier through an thorough, He can only think about killing Hideauze and doesn't have much of a grasp of what strategy is.
I'm pretty sure he even disagreed with the Alliance's decision to retreat after the failed attempt to destroy the Hideauze nest in the first episode. If it was for him he would have ordered to keep attacking.


I wasn't particularly surprised. I think that the Gargantians are being misunderstood a lot.
They aren't fundamentalist pacifist, and they aren't superstitious barbarians either.
They are simply pretty pragmatic and make a priority out of avoiding conflicts.

It's not like they revere the whalesquids, they simply know that it's better to leave them alone if they want to avoid problems. But in the end what they value the most is their own life and their well-being. If the whalesquids decide to kill them all, then they'll feel that they have no choice but to fight back.

If they however are given the option then they rather steer clear of them even if that means renouncing to powerful lost technologies.

Their attitude with the pirates is similar. They know they can't avoid conflicts with them, so they try to keep those conflicts to the minimum, even if that means that once in a while they will have to pay a "tribute" to them in the form of stolen salvaged goods.

Even that is a form of co-existence. Not something that I quite agree with though. it's simply... pragmatic and completely devoid of ideals.

Actually Chamber and Red know about strategy. He wouldn't be a good soldier if he didn't. The Alliance wants soldiers not rabid dogs. In the first episode, he recognized that they were losing even before they called a retreat and he disobeyed orders to rescue fellow soldiers who were caught by the Hideauze and couldn't get out. Also, since his CO also sacrificed his life despite regulations, it's obvious that the Alliance's soldiers are not automatons. They are just soldiers dedicated to their cause, and it happens to be all they have every known. They are soldiers who have never gotten a chance to experience civilian life.

Another indication that Red knows strategy is that he took the time to plan with Chamber, find out if there was anyway he could get reinforcements, he then went and asked Bevel about their numbers, ways, and how they travel, and other important strategic information. He asked for that info for a reason. If he didn't know strategy, he would have just charged out there guns blazing, wasting energy and time.

As for Gargantia's philosophies, I can see that they are suited very well for surviving, and for several generations, they've been surviving. However, they are not living, which is quite a different thing. They think they are, but they're not. They are stuck in a continual rut, never changing and afraid to do so because it will upset the status quo, the balance that they've maintained to survive. And yet, they will never be able to truly live as long as they are afraid to make something more of themselves despite their fears.

Funkatron
2013-05-19, 21:19
Actually Chamber and Red know about strategy. He wouldn't be a good soldier if he didn't. The Alliance wants soldiers not rabid dogs. In the first episode, he recognized that they were losing even before they called a retreat and he disobeyed orders to rescue fellow soldiers who were caught by the Hideauze and couldn't get out. Also, since his CO also sacrificed his life despite regulations, it's obvious that the Alliance's soldiers are not automatons. They are just soldiers dedicated to their cause, and it happens to be all they have every known. They are soldiers who have never gotten a chance to experience civilian life.

Another indication that Red knows strategy is that he took the time to plan with Chamber, find out if there was anyway he could get reinforcements, he then went and asked Bevel about their numbers, ways, and how they travel, and other important strategic information. He asked for that info for a reason. If he didn't know strategy, he would have just charged out there guns blazing, wasting energy and time.

As for Gargantia's philosophies, I can see that they are suited very well for surviving, and for several generations, they've been surviving. However, they are not living, which is quite a different thing. They think they are, but they're not. They are stuck in a continual rut, never changing and afraid to do so because it will upset the status quo, the balance that they've maintained to survive. And yet, they will never be able to truly live as long as they are afraid to make something more of themselves despite their fears.

Not only that but he didn't do anything once he saw how many there were. You could see it in his face

Guardian Enzo
2013-05-19, 21:31
In one sense it seems like a very odd choice to have fully detoured for two episodes (minus the last 10 seconds of episode six) and then jumped back into the story as if nothing had happened. And, well - it is. But I think the issue isn't that what happened was beside-the-point - the issue is with the execution. Those two episodes should have been one episode (#6) and the transition between the Hideauze storyline and what happened should have been smoother, in both directions.

I think what happens with Ledo (especially last week) is quite relavant because I think to some extent Suisei no Gargantia is intended to express the alienation of the current generation of young adults in Japan. In this instance quite literally, as Ledo is an alien on his ancestral home world - but I think that symbolizes the way many young Japanese feel. They have no connection to the world their parents made for them - their parents struggles and their prejudices mean little to them, and they enter a world where the virtual guarantee of lifelong economic security their parents and grandparents had is denied them. Of course they feel alienated - they're forced to make their way in a world someone else made, and they don't share its values. Japan is perpetually a struggle between the old and the new, between tradition and change, and I think the way Ledo feels as he struggles to make a life for himself is meant to express that. The frustration at the way he's "mismatched" to this world, the first feelings of serious romantic love, loneliness, intellectual curiosity - I think these are different themes for Gen to be putting on the front burner, and I think he should be taken at his word about what he hoped to accomplish with this series.

So where does that leave us now, as the plot has kick-started again? I think those expected a quick turn towards conventional Gen brutality, nihilism and despair are going to be disappointed - not least because I don't expect him to write another episode before the finale, but also because I don't think that was ever his intention. I do feel as if the way the two-episode meander was handled has robbed the show of some of its magic, and I didn't find this episode to be as gripping as the first four (the last of which remains the best anime episode this year, probably). Nevertheless, I think the series is in very interesting territory and I think the questions it's posing are genuinely interesting, and worthy of a Gen series.

What all this leads to is the alienation issue again. This is not Ledo's home, and these are not his people. He sees the world differently than they do - for him, it's survive or be destroyed, and peaceful co-existence is a concept beyond his comprehension. The Garngantian way of thinking has worked adequately for them, but they seem to be running in place, and it's the human way to want to move forward and expand (for better or worse). The conflict over the whale squids brings this to a head, and the Gargantians' feeling that Ledo has brought them big trouble is quite justifiable from their circumstances. It's only Ridget's gun pointed at his head that keeps him from attacking the squids when they approach the fleet, and the implication seems to be that he's reached a point where he can no longer stay with them without compromising his ideals to a degree he finds unacceptable. But can they simply turn a blind eye and let him leave if his intention is to destroy as many whale squids as he can before they destroy him?

Worse still, Ledo's presence seems to have fundamentally altered the dynamic in Gargantia and shattered their unlikely stability. The designated asshat character, Pinion, has a more sinister role than it appeared - his brother was likely killed by whale squid, and in Ledo's hatred of them he sees a natural ally in exacting some payback and getting rich in the process. And this has emboldened Flange, who really matters because he controls enough ships so that his departure would cripple Gargantia's defenses, to likewise petition to leave. In this we see how tenuously Ganrgantia's survival is balanced on the head of a pin, and how little it would take to effectively destroy it as a collective body. It's been telegraphed for a while that the Commodore, in failing health, would give way to Ridget at some point - and the crisis seems to have brought us to that moment. She's going to effectively face the dissolution of her country if she allows the others to leave - and it all starts with Ledo, who she likely could only prevent from departing by killing him. It's going to be very interesting to see how Gargantia manages to tie the larger plot in with the central theme over the next few eps - more than in most series, they're quite distinct from each other, and we've already seen evidence of the narrative difficulties that's caused.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-19, 21:33
Actually Chamber and Red know about strategy. He wouldn't be a good soldier if he didn't. The Alliance wants soldiers not rabid dogs. In the first episode, he recognized that they were losing even before they called a retreat and he disobeyed orders to rescue fellow soldiers who were caught by the Hideauze and couldn't get out. Also, since his CO also sacrificed his life despite regulations, it's obvious that the Alliance's soldiers are not automatons. They are just soldiers dedicated to their cause, and it happens to be all they have every known. They are soldiers who have never gotten a chance to experience civilian life.

Another indication that Red knows strategy is that he took the time to plan with Chamber, find out if there was anyway he could get reinforcements, he then went and asked Bevel about their numbers, ways, and how they travel, and other important strategic information. He asked for that info for a reason. If he didn't know strategy, he would have just charged out there guns blazing, wasting energy and time.


In my opinion that's tactic and not strategy. A tactician cannot see anything beyond the battlefield, a strategist sees the whole picture including future battlefields and even diplomacy.

Ledo as a soldier has a good understanding of battle tactics. He therefore knows the importance of intelligence and planning. However the end of a tactic is always winning the battle, not the war.

Irenesharda
2013-05-19, 21:34
BTW, I always meant to say that the Hideouze reminded me of the antagonists space alien species in Gunbuster, FWIW, which I just finished seeing earlier this year (though I guess those were suppose to be based on insects, not aquatic life). Either way, beings don't have to be all that sapient to have strategies to defend itself. Insects and aquatic life both (think Ants, Bees and I've seen some recent stuff in the news about fish that have been shown to move the way they do so they can best round up food). What we saw the Whalesquid do could have been a primal reaction to the death of their fellow pod memember verses a thought out military campaign (because Chamber admitted, in his own way, that the WhaleSquid and the Hideouze are related but not the same and not the same is important here in my opinion). I do think the Hideouze are more sapient than say sharks but I cann't shake the feeling that one of the big problems with is that they are really just top of the food chain creatures who do what they do to survive and can't be negotiated with because they aren't sapient enough to do so. However, if they're building space ships that shows that they should be able to be approached in some manner to negotiate some sort of way to co-exist.

At this point I think my main issue with what's being presented in this episode is that neither Ledo or Garganitia take on how to deal with things seems to be the correct one. Ledo's wrong, IMO, in that he doesn't have enough tactical backup to start up a war but Garganitia is also wrong in trying to avoid the Whalesquids completely and not try and re-gain some of their lost tech. A lot of how things need to be dealt with depends on just how Sapient the Hideouze are and if they do have the ability to communicate, what there take is on co-existence. As another poster mentioned earlier, the Alliance's situation and the one on Earth isn't exactly the same. If the Hideiouze aren't sapient enough to communicate then the Alliance may not have a good way to approach the issue other than the one they took. Even if they are sapient enough to communicate, the Hideouze in space may have no reason to not just annihilate the humans (they may see them as nothing more than bugs or cows - something they don't even think about or as a food commodity). However, the Whalesquid isn't in the same situation. Space is large and infinite, a planet like Earth is not. IMO a balance could be struck here in both parties interests, where there may be no good reason for either side in Space to be able to do that.

Chamber states that the Hideauze of Earth are genetically the same but have adapted their outer shells for Earth seas where as the ones in space are outfitted for Space. So if they're genetically the same, they are all pretty much the same species. This means the ones on Earth are capable of the same things as the ones in space.

However, I do agree with you that Earth and the Alliance are in different situations. No matter who started it, at this point, there is no possible way for co-habitation for the Alliance. If there ever was a bridge, it's been burnt long ago.
There might be a possibility for Earth, but that depends on the nature of the Earth Hideauze and what they are really about. We really need more information about them.

Polarpew
2013-05-19, 21:39
Something I'm not clear on is if the hideauze or whale squid as I think they called it last time, are responsible for the areas Gargantia goes to for power. If that is the case, then it would prove that humanity could live in peace and even benefit from the hideauze provided they don't attack them.

Of course, perhaps they might have attacked anyway. I sort of think Ledo just screwed up big time.

they obviously need to attack, you think they can co-exist if you gotta POWER DOWN THE ENTIRE FLEET every time they come by cuz if you don't they gonna sink you?!

Anh_Minh
2013-05-19, 21:43
So you're welling to use your hyper advanced super weapon to strong arm a relatively primitive civilization? I don't know if I should call this evil or just general dickery...:rolleyes:

They chose to point their weapons at Ledo. And to defend the Hideauze. So, while I'd be open to less radical solutions - yes, if they persist in behaving like enemies, they should be treated as enemies.

Besides, they've shown time and again that they don't have much respect for the one that uses overwhelming power on their behalf, but that they do for the one using overwhelming power against them.

Irenesharda
2013-05-19, 21:46
In my opinion that's tactic and not strategy. A tactician cannot see anything beyond the battlefield, a strategist sees the whole picture including future battlefields and even diplomacy.

Ledo as a soldier has a good understanding of battle tactics. He therefore knows the importance of intelligence and planning. However the end of a tactic is always winning the battle, not the war.

"Tactics" is synonymous to "strategy".

Strategy- the science or art of combining and employing the means of war in planning and directing large military movements and operations.

Tactics- the art or science of disposing military or naval forces for battle and maneuvering them in battle.

A tactician works in the same capacity as a strategist. I am making a plan to win a battle or a war either on a small scale or a large one. You are saying that Red's strategy for fighting is only meant for a single battle not for the whole war. Someone else, usually a higher up would plan a larger strategy for winning the war. No, that was not Red's capacity in the army since he's only an ensign. However, he's not trying to win a war here. The Hideauze would have to be wiped out for that. He can however plan one battle at a time, which is really all he needs to do at this point.

Guardian Enzo
2013-05-19, 21:49
Tactics and strategy are very different concepts, both in life generally and certainly in military terms. Kingdom has a very interesting discourse (from the unforgettable General Wang Qi) on just how different they are.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-19, 22:07
What Guardian Enzo said.

Strategy and tactics are commonly used as synonymous, but they can be used to specify very different concepts.

When I said that Ledo doesn't have a grasp of strategy I meant it in that specific sense.
Therefore the fact that Ledo is capable of planning doesn't invalidate my point.

Irenesharda
2013-05-19, 22:10
Tactics and strategy are very different concepts, both in life generally and certainly in military terms. Kingdom has a very interesting discourse (from the unforgettable General Wang Qi) on just how different they are.

In terms of the way I was using them and in my thesaurus, they are synonymous. I interchange them as I feel fit. Sorry if there happened to be any confusion. I was merely pointing out that Red does know how to strategize and he doesn't go into battle without a plan as was suggested.
And I think it also depends on if you are using the word "tactics" in plural or singular, or if you are using it as a noun or verb.

ChainLegacy
2013-05-19, 22:17
I think what happens with Ledo (especially last week) is quite relavant because I think to some extent Suisei no Gargantia is intended to express the alienation of the current generation of young adults in Japan. In this instance quite literally, as Ledo is an alien on his ancestral home world - but I think that symbolizes the way many young Japanese feel. They have no connection to the world their parents made for them - their parents struggles and their prejudices mean little to them, and they enter a world where the virtual guarantee of lifelong economic security their parents and grandparents had is denied them. Of course they feel alienated - they're forced to make their way in a world someone else made, and they don't share its values. Japan is perpetually a struggle between the old and the new, between tradition and change, and I think the way Ledo feels as he struggles to make a life for himself is meant to express that. The frustration at the way he's "mismatched" to this world, the first feelings of serious romantic love, loneliness, intellectual curiosity - I think these are different themes for Gen to be putting on the front burner, and I think he should be taken at his word about what he hoped to accomplish with this series.

This episode also got me thinking about the underlying message the show may be intending to sent, but I had a different interpretation (yours may be more on point, though). I thought perhaps since we've been told this is a show for young adults entering the 'real world' we're seeing the contrast between living a more simple life and trying to be 'successful' in modern Western civilization. To have a stable career, to make lots of money, to accomplish lots of great things - this is the Spartan existence of Ledo's fleet. Ultimately, sacrifices are made for the greater cause, fun is cut to a minimum, while purpose and achievement are paramount.

On the other hand, you have the Gargantians, who represent a more simple, subdued living, not as driven, and without the grand purpose. They have a more carefree and at times more enjoyable life, but they'll never be as powerful or accomplished as the GA. They'll have to swallow their pride and accept the status quo, sometimes recognizing there are forces out there they can't much up against.

Then there's Ledo, who's experienced both, and with a taste for both sides, has to balance his priorities in each direction. I think this is pretty similar to what many people face today. People want to be successful, some people even want to be powerful, but of course everyone also wants to enjoy their life and spend time with their families and friends. Drift too far towards your career and the drive to succeed and you may end up living that Spartan Galactic Alliance lifestyle. Drift too far into carefree mode, and you might end up helpless against those who threaten you and without any purpose to your life. The ideal is to be somewhere in between and recognize the merit of having a bit of both philosophies guiding your behavior.

They chose to point their weapons at Ledo. And to defend the Hideauze. So, while I'd be open to less radical solutions - yes, if they persist in behaving like enemies, they should be treated as enemies.

Besides, they've shown time and again that they don't have much respect for the one that uses overwhelming power on their behalf, but that they do for the one using overwhelming power against them.

It's for this reason I've found Ridget's character to be thoroughly vexing. I understand her place in the plot and even her perspective, but I'd like to see her knocked down a peg or two sometime. :heh:

FlareKnight
2013-05-19, 23:07
Well an interesting development. Not surprising that the discovery of the Hideauze being the Sea Squids causes quite a change in the status quo. Makes you wonder what exactly the truth of the matter is. Are the Squids just the type to leave things be or are they simply ignoring the humans on the ocean because they are so inferior? The theory about energy and them feeding off it in space and on Earth could make sense. In space it's a major threat with them going after stars and ships, while they can somewhat dodge them at the present by turning everything off.

If that is the case though there is hardly a good long term relationship to be had here. If humanity wants to take steps forward they have to expand and develop their tech which would make them greater targets. But at the same time Ledo can't just rush off into battle either. He can barely fight them one on one in the ocean. He takes on a handful and he could very well lose.

Going to be some tough episodes ahead. As we see just where Ledo's path goes. It really can be a who knows kind of situation. If the Alliance finds Ledo it only gets more complicated. But hard to say if that will happen. Gargantia itself will possibly lead to a change in leadership at the worst time for it.

serenade_beta
2013-05-19, 23:29
"Even if you don't kill those squids, you are you..."
Yes, the power of love and friendship is the perfect argument for why you should remove the dangers before they actually attack you, yes, boy?

Anyways, I think the useless Megane woman and old man should actually talk with Ledo for once, instead of chasing him out and talking between themselves and then getting all made because he acted without any knowledge.
But at least Kira Death Noted the captain, so that removes him out of the picture. Megane hysteric.

I'm all for Ledo extincting the squids if they really start a rampage when just one of their kinds get killed, but I'm not sure it is possible. There are just so many! Unless there is like some Mother Brain somewhere...

Dark Wing
2013-05-19, 23:56
I'm glad the map has not gone unnoticed. I couldn't really think of a good explanation for it, though... if that really is dry land that's showing, it's hardly a secret hanging its picture up on the wall.

Unless it's not a current map, or is a map of some other thing than dry land (though the colors are fairly standard).

Anyway:

http://i.imgur.com/THs2Gus.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/THs2Gus.jpg)

That's actually a world map.
Those are the Himalayas, Andes, Rockies etc but with south being the top of the map.

http://t.imgbox.com/adyfKayv.jpg (http://imgbox.com/adyfKayv)

andyjay729
2013-05-20, 00:00
That's actually a world map.
Those are the Himalayas, Andes, Rockies etc but with south being the top of the map.

http://t.imgbox.com/adyfKayv.jpg (http://imgbox.com/adyfKayv)

So...then there's actually pretty significant land above water... Pretty rugged of course but it's still dry, and they probably don't have cold alpine climates any more.

Dark Wing
2013-05-20, 00:05
So...then there's actually pretty significant land above water... Pretty rugged of course but it's still dry, and they probably don't have cold alpine climates any more.

Still the question remains is it possible to plant anything in the soil?

Seems to me that it'll be nothing but rock not very suitable for supporting life.

Jimmy C
2013-05-20, 00:23
It could be a historical map, made before those lands sank beneath the waters, what with them apparently hanging it upside down and all.
Or sea galaxy and whalesquid concentrations prevent them from getting close enough to see those lands for real. As a result, no one knows if those lands still exist or not.

MeggieMay
2013-05-20, 01:20
So...then there's actually pretty significant land above water... Pretty rugged of course but it's still dry, and they probably don't have cold alpine climates any more.

Still the question remains is it possible to plant anything in the soil?

Seems to me that it'll be nothing but rock not very suitable for supporting life.

First, great catch at what we're looking at! I thought it was a world map but the upside down part didn't quite click at first (even though I've seen other shows use world maps like that for similar purposes)

While there is probably not a lot of arable land showing there, there is some land showing around above Ridget's shoulder that I know is currently viable. If I understand that map that's the Pike Peak region (the Denali/Mt. McKinley area in Alaska is most likely behind her back and out of view). I've actually been up on top of that mountain (I took the cog railway ride up a number of years ago - btw, that's a great trip to make if you're ever in the area in the summer) and while you can't grow stuff above the treeline, that looks to me like that map is showing a bit of land bellow that. Also, it's not showing any snow caps (that's over 14,000 feet up) so something major is going on with the weather. Something else that I'm thinking about is even if the land currently can't be used for farming, it's because the soils eroded away. What would need to be done is for people to dredge up soil from the bottom of the sea and put it on the dry land and spread out and used for farming. I would think that is most likely that's where they're getting current soil to work with on the ships.

Anyway, something interesting I ran into while doing a quick Wiki checkup on Pikes Peak. It mentions that PP is one of the Fourteener's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteeners) - the group of mountains in the U.S. that are above 14,000. The thing is Pike's Peak is #57 on the list, with Denali being #1 at over 20,000 ft and several mountains in between in the Sierra Nevada and Cascade mountain ranges :uhoh: . I'm willing to suspend belief here and figure that shows creators didn't realize the the U.S. West coast mountain should be showing up on the map, as well (I live in the Western U.S. and they don't). Also, I don't think the map is suppose to be including those mountains because if it is it is and it is trying to show dry land in between, you actually could put a LOT of people in that area (that's part of five Western U.S. states). However, if you just take the main idea I think it's trying to convey, which is land above 14,000 feet is above water, then it should indicate that there is quite of bit of land above water in the area that is behind Ridgets back (a chunk of Alaska and the NW Territories of Canada)!

Oh well, I'm sure that's just a goof up but the real issue for me is that there is "some" land above water if that maps accurate and it brings me back to why Amy doesn't realize it. As I said earlier I think it's a case that Amy, and most likely the majority of people on Gigantia, really don't realize that the land is there to begin with and really do think dry land is mythical. I'm just curious as to why that is? There seems to be something stopping most people from trying to access what little land they have and I'm curious to know what it is.

Theo
2013-05-20, 01:23
Ridget, Ridget, Ridget, why are you so utterly fucking stupid? Threatening the spaceman with a dinky pistol NEXT to the god-like robot?

At least Pinion got over his "let's kill the demi-god!" retardation past episode 4. What's your excuse?

https://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1369/01/1369012221332.jpg

Triple_R
2013-05-20, 01:27
Fantastic episode. Great to see the plot kick back into high-gear.

Oh, and I have to say... I have some dark speculations about where the story could go from here. If those speculations hold true (or close to true), then Gen will pull off with this show precisely the misdirection he had hoped to pull off with Madoka Magica.

But even if those speculations don't hold true, I think we're in for an excellent, dramatic, and very thematically rich anime show going forward.


The only nitpick I'll make is that the Fleet Commander having a heart attack at just that critical moment was a bit much. :heh: However, they executed it so marvelously with how everybody (especially Ridget) reacted to it, and with the BGM, that it still came off as an awesome cliffhanger in spite of how contrived it was. When even an anime episode's weaknesses turns into strengths, it deserves 10/10.

Irenesharda
2013-05-20, 01:28
https://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1369/01/1369012221332.jpg

Wow, I loved that. Who knew Red was so good with words! :love::bow:

Theo
2013-05-20, 01:30
Wow, I loved that. Who knew Red was so good with words! :love::bow:

If you count Warhammer 40k as part of the Gargantia franchise, you'd be right.

Irenesharda
2013-05-20, 01:33
If you count Warhammer 40k as part of the Gargantia franchise, you'd be right.

It was still pretty good. I'm not into gaming, so I had to actually look up that game. :p

Pocari_Sweat
2013-05-20, 01:58
Fuck yea. After 2 pretty subpar episodes (particularly episode 5 which was just insulting and almost made me rage as hard since Hanasaku Iroha episode 3 days) Gargantia is back on track. World building episodes were fine but since it's past the halfway point and its a 1 cour series, was about time we got the main dish in terms of the plot.

Bring on the fight with the whalesquids.

Dark Wing
2013-05-20, 02:04
As I said earlier I think it's a case that Amy, and most likely the majority of people on Gigantia, really don't realize that the land is there to begin with and really do think dry land is mythical. I'm just curious as to why that is? There seems to be something stopping most people from trying to access what little land they have and I'm curious to know what it is.

Maybe that's where some of the squids territory might be which is why no one goes there.

Also as I said earlier my guess is that when talking about land being a myth maybe Amy was talking about continents with lush green plants and animals as fare as the eye can see or something.


Ridget, Ridget, Ridget, why are you so utterly fucking stupid? Threatening the spaceman with a dinky pistol NEXT to the god-like robot?

At least Pinion got over his "let's kill the demi-god!" retardation past episode 4. What's your excuse?

It was more of a stand off if you ask me. Neither one of them were going to make a move with having turn the whole thing into a bloody mess.

Also in regards to your second statement try to see it from her point of view.

If Ledo was allowed to attack the squids while they were passing under Gargantia they would've no doubt wiped the entire fleet out.

So the question remains could Ledo have seriously taken on all those squids by himself before they reduced Gargantia to sunken pile of rusty metal?

:topicoff:

If you count Warhammer 40k as part of the Gargantia franchise, you'd be right.

I know this is off topic but as a fan of he original Warhammer I have to put it out there that to this day I find 40k to be blasphemy...I mean space ogres? Really!? :rolleyes:

LostSome
2013-05-20, 02:09
That whalesquid sure was crazy...
It didn`t tried to ran away or took a defense stance when it was getting shot at and fought to the death.
It looks like it had no sense of self preservation at all. Hive mind or soldier drone ?
Also, why attacking Bellow ?

Izayoi
2013-05-20, 02:12
If you pause to examine Chamber after the attack, you can tell that there are a few scratches here and there. I guess this means those sea creatures are the real deal. Whether they can coexists with humans is the next problem I guess.

The only nitpick I'll make is that the Fleet Commander having a heart attack at just that critical moment was a bit much. :heh:

Getting angry/upset can trigger a heart attack. It also seemed like he wasn't suppose to be moving around but he had to due to the emergency...

Edit:

Ridget, Ridget, Ridget, why are you so utterly fucking stupid? Threatening the spaceman with a dinky pistol NEXT to the god-like robot

What is the deal with this? Why are there so many similar reactions to Ridget's actions on these western forums? She pointed her gun at him to show hostility and that they were serious about their decision. It wasn't about who is stronger or whatever, it just means that if Red is going to go off and attack the whalesquids then Gargantia has also declared war on him. And clearly Red doesn't want that. He respects the humans on the fleet and never intended to create hostility. What is stupid is that Red thinks he can wipe out all those whalesquids by himself without endangering the fleet.

Theo
2013-05-20, 02:52
What is the deal with this? Why are there so many similar reactions to Ridget's actions on these western forums? She pointed her gun at him to show hostility and that they were serious about their decision. It wasn't about who is stronger or whatever, it just means that if Red is going to go off and attack the whalesquids then Gargantia has also declared war on him. And clearly Red doesn't want that. He respects the humans on the fleet and never intended to create hostility. What is stupid is that Red thinks he can wipe out all those whalesquids by himself without endangering the fleet.

The gun pointing would be a last resort if Ridget failed to fully convince him right then and there that Gargantia will be endangered if Ledo goes to war. Pointing the gun outright before even spelling it out to stupid Ledo was pretty foolish.

Tranhieu
2013-05-20, 03:00
I don't get why Ledo gets so much criticism in this episode. In fact I found his perfectly sensible when Gargantia crossed the squids' path. He did weigh up all the pros and cons before deciding whether to pick a fight or lay low for the time being. I'm pretty sure it's not Ridget's rusty pistol that made him have a second thought, but seeing the vast number of squids floating beneath Gargantia and considering how combat ineffective it is when fighting underwater, which is not the environment Chamber's adept at, he chose to hold off to wait for another opportunity. Not to mention his rash action may put the whole fleet into danger, ending up in the same situation happened after he killed the pirates mercilessly, or might be worse. He did have some critical thinking before picking choices, something you can expect from a well trained, experienced soldier, regardless of the hatred and anger when seeing them. I can't see anything can be considered suicidal in his actions in this episode.

Nevertheless I'm also troubled by his way of thinking. Does having the same genetic trait mean the whalesquids will become as violent as their predecessors in the outer space? It's still not clear at this stage whether the whalesquids can pose as much danger to the humans in Gargantia in the long run and all the proof Ledo has at the moment is nothing but their genetic analysis (I'm no biologist so don't know if that's conclusive enough to justify his thinking). If all things turn out as Ledo expects, now is the best time to strike when the iron is still hot! History has taught us many times to have peace one must be prepared for wars.




Regarding Ledo, I really liked how this episode portrayed his determination and his absolute unquestioning devotion to his cause. He is a lot scarier than I originally thought. Even though the recent events seemed to have mellowed him down, his beliefs and convictions are still incredibly solid. He didn't even hesitate a bit in front of the prospect of abandoning Amy.

It's really very sad but this story does a good job at making you understand his point of view. In one of my earlier comments I pointed how the Alliance seem to glorify humanity and its role in the universe, their adopted symbol is a very good indication of that. They have pride and they can't accept to submit to another species as the rulers of their environment. Ledo has always lived according to that mentality, rejecting that to him would be most likely equivalent to us rejecting the values of democracy and freedom.

He simply cannot accept the fact that Gargantians are fine living their lives mindlessly without any project of advancement least they'll get in the way of more powerful beings. I sympathize with his view.

Though, from a practical standpoint I simply can't agree with his suicidal crusade.
We have seen that there are entire swarms of whalesquids and while they aren't as strong as their spacefaring counterparts they are still a serious threat to Chamber and an absolutely lethal one to everyone else.
His plan to single handedly wage war against all the Hideauze on earth isn't realistic, especially considering that he doesn't have an adequate logistic support.
There was no way that he could have defended the whole fleet against that huge swarm. What is he planning to do once there won't be any floating platforms left to rest on?

I'm amazed that Chamber doesn't suggest to wait for directions from the Alliance before initiating a war in an unknown territory, I am also amazed by how Pinion and that other guy whose name I don't remember are willingly to go on war against the whalesquid, especially after they have seen that they can organize a counteroffensive so quickly after just one of them dying.
Perhaps they are overestimating Chamber. Well I can't be completely certain, but it doesn't look to me that this will be going well.

I think that the timely earth attack of Fairlock will result in a part of the fleet following Pinion and Ledo. I wonder what Amy will do then. Perhaps she will decide to follow Ledo even if she doesn't agree with him just to stay near him.

They will most likely explore the area protected by Hideauze where powerful technologies lie. This will probably lead them to learn important facts about what actually happened to Earth in the past and what roles the Hideauze have on it.



Yeah I noticed that too. According to that map there is still land. I hope this issue will be addressed in the future.

jeroz
2013-05-20, 03:55
I find it humorous that on the forum people have to antagonise either Ledo or Gargantia in their post.

It's obvious what both parties were coming from, and neither is incorrect from what they'd known. Ledo spent his whole life fighting Hideazu, to him the war defines him. with the last words from his captain he felt like he has To carry on the fight.
To the Gargantians though those squid are different. They are more like natural disasters. Respect the sea and everything well be fine. Provoke them and there will be consequences. Hideazu is NOT an enemy to them.

Once again this all brings back to the power of communication and what happens when there's a breakdown.

On another now,I found a weird parallel with the pirates in this whole encounter.

Azure King
2013-05-20, 05:02
Quiet an enjoyable episode, a lot better then all the plotless fanservices trash that been released lately
I do agree with most people when about the last couple of episode where you couldn't make heads or tails on how this series plot is going to develop, this nice intense, in your face drama is very refreshing.

BoyTitan
2013-05-20, 05:10
Something I'm not clear on is if the hideauze or whale squid as I think they called it last time, are responsible for the areas Gargantia goes to for power. If that is the case, then it would prove that humanity could live in peace and even benefit from the hideauze provided they don't attack them.

Of course, perhaps they might have attacked anyway. I sort of think Ledo just screwed up big time.

1 this series finally is going some where.You can do character building and make a plot progress at the same time wish Uro would start doing that. anyways best ep so far.

No screw the hideauze as a human I be dammed if some species trys to be our superior. The whale squid keep humans on earth from accessing advanced technology even with the use of lethal force. Coexisting fine trying to be mankinds superior no kill them all.

Of course Ledo is going to kill it that species killed his brethren in combat and they are supposed to just co exist. I mean since the humans in space have no sucha term as co exist yes they are not in the right but neither are the hideauze.

The hideauze should have let the humans on earth develop and become equals with the humans in the alliance since then they could have communicated with each other and corrected what ever it was the alliance where doing wrong. Not play god and get the humans in space to change by a show of force such actions will only lead humanity to try to exterminate you if it is with in their power.

To everyone bringing up cosmic differences between the hideauze chamber already said it is 100% the same species but in combat said it is adapted for this environment.

NoemiChan
2013-05-20, 05:16
I love the dance.. brings out the dark skin fetish...

BoyTitan
2013-05-20, 05:25
https://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1369/01/1369012221332.jpg Found this on MAL.

Who ever wrote this made freaking gold. Na the whale squid are a controlling but not wrathful god they would probably some how keep the sun from going out but ya humanity is pretty much their pet screw that.

Well for now they do eat stars in space after all. Sorry but a species going around playing judge,jury and executioner needs to be wiped out.

Just because it was foreshadowed one episode ago doesn't make it good writing.

I don't know maybe if they spent real time developing Ledo's interaction with Gargantia, not just swim suit parties and watching girls belly dance we could of had something more compelling than this.

Thats what I said terrible character development aside from ledo and the sick kid I feel attached to no one don't even remember their names really. If they all die its meeh.

Kirarakim
2013-05-20, 05:27
I don't see anything that would make me think that this episode had anything that could be considered bad writing. The pacing wasn't particularly rushed nor anything and there is absolutely nothing wrong in alternating peaceful scenes with more tense ones, it's a solid format of many successful stories.

Moreover it's not like this recent event came out of the blue, it was foreshadowed enough.

I have the feeling that you didn't get over the disappointment of the previous episodes and that that is affecting negatively the judgement of this latest one. It doesn't help the fact that you keep mentioning them as a reason to justify your critique of this

Just because you don't see a problem doesn't mean I have to agree right?

And of course what happened in episode 5 & 6 affect my enjoyment of this episode because they didnt build up this episode at all. It's not that a conflict starts suddenly, its how the conflict started suddenly. On his very first job he runs into the Hideauze and is now in conflict with everyone. What exactly was the point of finding a job to the story? just to get him down to the Hideauze? So yeah I do think this feels rushed.


Quite honestly how they come to an understanding now is how I will judge this series because I certainly don't think the series did a good enough job connecting Ledo with Gargantia previously to make me care he is conflict with them now.

And I already mentioned the stuff with Pinion and the fleet head.

Edit: And I gave the episode a 7 so its not like I rated it the worst ever or anything.

BoyTitan
2013-05-20, 05:58
In one sense it seems like a very odd choice to have fully detoured for two episodes (minus the last 10 seconds of episode six) and then jumped back into the story as if nothing had happened. And, well - it is. But I think the issue isn't that what happened was beside-the-point - the issue is with the execution. Those two episodes should have been one episode (#6) and the transition between the Hideauze storyline and what happened should have been smoother, in both directions.

I think what happens with Ledo (especially last week) is quite relavant because I think to some extent Suisei no Gargantia is intended to express the alienation of the current generation of young adults in Japan. In this instance quite literally, as Ledo is an alien on his ancestral home world - but I think that symbolizes the way many young Japanese feel. They have no connection to the world their parents made for them - their parents struggles and their prejudices mean little to them, and they enter a world where the virtual guarantee of lifelong economic security their parents and grandparents had is denied them. Of course they feel alienated - they're forced to make their way in a world someone else made, and they don't share its values. Japan is perpetually a struggle between the old and the new, between tradition and change, and I think the way Ledo feels as he struggles to make a life for himself is meant to express that. The frustration at the way he's "mismatched" to this world, the first feelings of serious romantic love, loneliness, intellectual curiosity - I think these are different themes for Gen to be putting on the front burner, and I think he should be taken at his word about what he hoped to accomplish with this series.

So where does that leave us now, as the plot has kick-started again? I think those expected a quick turn towards conventional Gen brutality, nihilism and despair are going to be disappointed - not least because I don't expect him to write another episode before the finale, but also because I don't think that was ever his intention. I do feel as if the way the two-episode meander was handled has robbed the show of some of its magic, and I didn't find this episode to be as gripping as the first four (the last of which remains the best anime episode this year, probably). Nevertheless, I think the series is in very interesting territory and I think the questions it's posing are genuinely interesting, and worthy of a Gen series.

What all this leads to is the alienation issue again. This is not Ledo's home, and these are not his people. He sees the world differently than they do - for him, it's survive or be destroyed, and peaceful co-existence is a concept beyond his comprehension. The Garngantian way of thinking has worked adequately for them, but they seem to be running in place, and it's the human way to want to move forward and expand (for better or worse). The conflict over the whale squids brings this to a head, and the Gargantians' feeling that Ledo has brought them big trouble is quite justifiable from their circumstances. It's only Ridget's gun pointed at his head that keeps him from attacking the squids when they approach the fleet, and the implication seems to be that he's reached a point where he can no longer stay with them without compromising his ideals to a degree he finds unacceptable. But can they simply turn a blind eye and let him leave if his intention is to destroy as many whale squids as he can before they destroy him?

Worse still, Ledo's presence seems to have fundamentally altered the dynamic in Gargantia and shattered their unlikely stability. The designated asshat character, Pinion, has a more sinister role than it appeared - his brother was likely killed by whale squid, and in Ledo's hatred of them he sees a natural ally in exacting some payback and getting rich in the process. And this has emboldened Flange, who really matters because he controls enough ships so that his departure would cripple Gargantia's defenses, to likewise petition to leave. In this we see how tenuously Ganrgantia's survival is balanced on the head of a pin, and how little it would take to effectively destroy it as a collective body. It's been telegraphed for a while that the Commodore, in failing health, would give way to Ridget at some point - and the crisis seems to have brought us to that moment. She's going to effectively face the dissolution of her country if she allows the others to leave - and it all starts with Ledo, who she likely could only prevent from departing by killing him. It's going to be very interesting to see how Gargantia manages to tie the larger plot in with the central theme over the next few eps - more than in most series, they're quite distinct from each other, and we've already seen evidence of the narrative difficulties that's caused.


I swear I read this somewhere else before or something similar to that economy situation in Japan. Didn't C control focus on this whole alienation issue thing already. That is more of a financial thing and something I would rather have this series not cover its been done enough.

Jan-Poo when you get to a certain level of technological achievement tactics surpass strategy greatly. The alliance is way beyond that stage.

Pacify
2013-05-20, 06:30
Thank god. I was really wondering about this series after the last 2 awful episodes. That was a well needed jolt back onto the path of a plot >_>

zztop
2013-05-20, 07:09
Ohhh, why can't it be next week already instead of this week! I wanna know what happens next!

Benigmatica
2013-05-20, 07:28
What is stupid is that Red thinks he can wipe out all those whalesquids by himself without endangering the fleet.

Um, it's the question of why does he have to bring his war on Hideauze (or Whalesquids) to Earth. Although my only concern is those people profiteering for letting Ledo do as he pleases while plunder the treasures beneath.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-20, 07:35
Um, it's the question of why does he have to bring his war on Hideauze (or Whalesquids) to Earth.
They're here and he's here. What more reason does he need?

And as I've said, there should not be a safe place for Hideauze. Not even and especially not Earth.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-20, 07:49
Just because you don't see a problem doesn't mean I have to agree right?

And of course what happened in episode 5 & 6 affect my enjoyment of this episode because they didnt build up this episode at all. It's not that a conflict starts suddenly, its how the conflict started suddenly. On his very first job he runs into the Hideauze and is now in conflict with everyone. What exactly was the point of finding a job to the story? just to get him down to the Hideauze? So yeah I do think this feels rushed.


Quite honestly how they come to an understanding now is how I will judge this series because I certainly don't think the series did a good enough job connecting Ledo with Gargantia previously to make me care he is conflict with them now.

And I already mentioned the stuff with Pinion and the fleet head.

Edit: And I gave the episode a 7 so its not like I rated it the worst ever or anything.


It's just that I have the feeling that you are not being objective. You are criticizing the episode for things that are not outright wrong.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong, for example, in a conflict happening suddenly. And it's not that you can say it was an odd coincidence that he ran on a Hideauze only now after he started working. In the first place the whalesquids live in the depths of the sea, and Ledo has never been there before (not after he woke up).

In other words he never really had a chance to meet one before. And there are no reasons to think the whalesquids are a such rare encounter. It seem that the Gargantia know well what they are.

As for how after the first encounter it suddenly escalated into a war, how could that have ended differently? Ledo attacks Hideauze on sight, the Hideauze have probably some collective mind that makes them retaliate instantly.


Is the pacing too fast? How this episode can be considered to have a faster pacing than the first where you get introduced to the whole Alliance vs Hideauze you see a grand battle, and in the same episode you are already thrown into a completely different world on the Gargantia?

Benigmatica
2013-05-20, 07:52
They're here and he's here. What more reason does he need?

And as I've said, there should not be a safe place for Hideauze. Not even and especially not Earth.

But Chamber said the magic word... "Co-existence". To my understanding, as far as the Alliance branding them as a threat, the people of Gargantia treated the Whalesquid as divine beings.

If the possibility of Ledo eliminating all of the Whalesquid, I wonder what will happen on the Earth's ecosystem, and vice-versa.

joshuafaramir
2013-05-20, 07:53
But there was barely any real genuine interaction and it hurt this episode tremendously. Everything feels extremely rushed at this point in the story and that is because they wasted too much time in episode 5 and 6 on things that were unimportant.

So Ledo gets a job salvaging after one episode of searching and in the very next episode he discovers the hideauze and is in conflict with Gargantia. Okay!

Yeah this might be a problem of this series only being one cour, but Madoka Magica certainly didn't have this type of issue.

Heck in one episode we find out Pinion wants to look for treasure in whale squid territory and avenge his brother...I don't know maybe this could have been stuff used to develop his character before not just throw it at us in one episode.

Same with seeing the fleet commander is having a check up and in the very same episode he has a heart attack.

edit: I don't know perhaps this will lead to interesting things but I don't feel this was the smoothest of transitions at all.

Look bob, the show is not over yet so you can quit with the "there's not enough tine" scheme and just wait how it goes. This is the same thing as those people crying how SAO didn't have enough time to develop whatever but ended up being mistaken completely.

By the way, I want to know more about what happened to them pirates! I mean, hot MILF with 2 love slaves? Who wouldn't be interested! It's like this show completely forgot about it.

andyjay729
2013-05-20, 08:01
https://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1369/01/1369012221332.jpg

Heh, I was wondering if at some point Ledo might compare the Gargantians to the Eloi, as shown here in the 1960 version of The Time Machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ4lDJs8skg). "A million years of progress and you let it crumble into dust, all so you can...dance and sleep and PLAY!!!"

That said, I don't think the Hideauze are raising them for food like the Morlocks were with the Eloi, heh.

And no, I'm not unilaterally bashing the Gargantians. They have their reasons for their behavior, same with Ledo. I just thought, even before this episode, that at some point Ledo might become frustrated with their lifestyle given how it differs from his own. And his observation on their primitive nature reminded even more of the Time Traveler's denigration of the Eloi.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-20, 08:12
Heh, I was wondering if at some point Ledo might compare the Gargantians to the Eloi, as shown here in the 1960 version of The Time Machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ4lDJs8skg). "A million years of progress and you let it crumble into dust, all so you can...dance and sleep and PLAY!!!"


heh, nice comparison. I think that from a western mentality standpoint you can hardly disagree with Ledo, that assuming that Hideauze actually prevent humans from advancing technologically.

However if we examine this from the perspective of a studio ghibli tradition (and this anime really seem to homage Miyazaki's works a lot) then the Gargantians are right. This is basically Nausicaa all over again.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-20, 08:15
But Chamber said the magic word... "Co-existence". To my understanding, as far as the Alliance branding them as a threat, the people of Gargantia treated the Whalesquid as divine beings.
Which works for primitives. Not for the GA.

If the possibility of Ledo eliminating all of the Whalesquid, I wonder what will happen on the Earth's ecosystem, and vice-versa.
Screw it. It's seen worse.

Kirarakim
2013-05-20, 08:18
Look bob, the show is not over yet so you can quit with the "there's not enough tine" scheme and just wait how it goes. This is the same thing as those people crying how SAO didn't have enough time to develop whatever but ended up being mistaken completely.


Look there is no need to be rude because someone has a different opinion from you. I did not say the show as a whole is ruined. I said I felt this episode felt extremely rushed and contrived. I am not talking about the whole fricking series.

As for SAO it's pretty amusing how you use that as a shining example when it is pretty much critically panned. Although I wouldn't know because I dropped it at episode 5.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong, for example, in a conflict happening suddenly

You seem to be not reading what I am saying. I didn't say that it was bad that the conflict happened suddenly. I said I didn't like how the conflict was introduced suddenly.

I didn't like how the whole set up of Ledo getting a job seems to only be to get him down to where the Hideauze was. That is what felt contrived to me and it makes the other two episodes feel even more unnecessary and a waste of time.

There were elements introduced in this episode: Pinion's brother, The fleet commander being sick, and heck Gargantia's feelings on the whale squid. All of this stuff could have been built up in earlier episodes to make this episode feel smoother to me.

I am not saying the episode was the worst thing ever but it could have been much better. I just didn't feel the episode at all or really care because I didn't buy Ledo's connection to Gargantia based on previous episodes. So yes what happens in previous episodes does affect you enjoyment of later episodes.

And yes I am still interested to see where things lead now. So no I am not writing off the whole show because I am not rah rah about one episode.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-20, 08:29
I didn't like how the whole set up of Ledo getting a job seems to only be to get him down to where the Hideauze was. That is what felt contrived to me and it makes the other two episodes feel even more unnecessary and a waste of time.


How else this could have been less "contrived" in your opinion?

Would it have been better if the Hideauze appeared suddenly and without a specific reason rather than a consequence of several events that led Ledo first to wish to find a job, finally finding a job that he can be interested in and that he can actually be useful for, and then encountering a Hideauze because his job directly led him to that?

Well I guess everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but to me this is an example of good writing, not the opposite.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-05-20, 08:32
However if we examine this from the perspective of a studio ghibli tradition (and this anime really seem to homage Miyazaki's works a lot) then the Gargantians are right. This is basically Nausicaa all over again.Interesting. And I kinda agree.

I personally think Nausicaa’s theme is: humans’ ego and greed is unlimited, and if some powerful outside-force doesn’t keep tabs on them and teach them some humility, they’ll eventually destroy the nature and themselves.

That said, those Ohmus from Nausicaa are indeed similar to the Whalesquids in Gargantia (so far).

apotheosis
2013-05-20, 08:39
To be fair, it's a fictional tale, which by definition is going to be contrived. :heh:

Those episodes were obviously meant to set a mood, which is now broken, and is likely not to be seen again with only 4? 6? episodes left.

Also, a small part of me is hoping Gen was lying out his teeth when he said this wasn't going to be sad, and that the Hideauz end up winning, with Ledo realizing if he'd only left well enough alone, everyone would still be alive as he lays bleeding out in Chamber's defunct cockpit with a swarm of Hideauz approaching. :p

Fiction is obviously contrived. That's why the author has to work very hard to make things believable within the context of their story. This is actually one of the harder things to do in good Fantasy/Sci Fi. The author needs to make the story exotic and other wordly, but also something that the reader can still relate to & find possible given the baseline rules for the world.

In contrast, some bizarre headlines in the news would strain credulity if used as a novel plot device .. but since they are reality, they stand on their own :heh:

Kirarakim
2013-05-20, 08:44
How else this could have been less "contrived" in your opinion?

Would it have been better if the Hideauze appeared suddenly and without a specific reason rather than a consequence of several events that led Ledo first to wish to find a job, finally finding a job that he can be interested in and that he can actually be useful for, and then encountering a Hideauze because his job directly led him to that?

Well I guess everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but to me this is an example of good writing, not the opposite.

I said several ways already how the episode could have been less contrived

1) Talk about the whale squid previously not just have Ledo eat an Octopus
2) Have Pinion mention his brother beforehand and his wishes to go into that territory
3) Show us the fleet commander was ill beforehand

As for Ledo well ideally they would have built his relationship up with Gargantia more. Have him discover things about himself and the people aboard Gargantia. The job idea was actually a really good one it was just executed poorly and become more of a joke then something compelling.

It is pretty clear they never meant to do anything with the whole job search and just wanted to get Ledo down in the Ocean. But quite honestly this could have been accomplished without wasting 2 episodes on getting him to that point.

apotheosis
2013-05-20, 08:57
Anyways, I think the useless Megane woman and old man should actually talk with Ledo for once, instead of chasing him out and talking between themselves and then getting all made because he acted without any knowledge.

Yes. This has always bugged the hell out of me.

They know he's able to destroy their entire fleet at a whim, but they treat him like a bus boy. What sort of commander would not want to get to know Ledo personally and try to influence him directly? Or at least have Ridget talk to him more often ..

Why should they be surprised their living weapon shoots something, if they make only awkward & begrudging attempts to understand, influence & educate him?

I think think splitting the fleet will be good for Gargantia. They clearly need some sort of upheaval to get them to think again & realize their world has changed.

bastek66
2013-05-20, 08:58
That's actually a world map.
Those are the Himalayas, Andes, Rockies etc but with south being the top of the map.

http://t.imgbox.com/adyfKayv.jpg (http://imgbox.com/adyfKayv)
It's McArthur's Universal Corrective Map of the World (https://www.google.com/search?q=mcarthur%27s+universal+corrective+map+of+ the+world&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=pl&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=miuaUarTLcWLON-_gcgC&biw=1440&bih=734&sei=nSuaUer3IoehO87DgPgC)

LKK
2013-05-20, 09:00
3) Show us the fleet commander was ill beforehand
This is one area where I disagree with you. I've believed the fleet commander was ill from his first episode. I have always thought the fleet commander was ill. For me, it came across especially in the scene where the commander said to Ridgett that he wondered what her father would do about the problem of Ledo and the pirates if he were still alive. He sounded like a tired unhealthy old man who was forcing himself to carry on until he was sure his replacement (i.e. Ridgett) was experienced enough that he could entrust the fleet to her. My surprise from this episode regarding the commander's health was not that he was ill but that he could walk. Up until now, I assumed he was chair-bound. I don't recall seeing him stand before this episode although may be my faulty memory at work.

apotheosis
2013-05-20, 09:08
Quite honestly how they come to an understanding now is how I will judge this series because I certainly don't think the series did a good enough job connecting Ledo with Gargantia previously to make me care he is conflict with them now.

This. I really feel almost no empathy for the fleet, based on the way they have treated Ledo & how flat most of their characters are.

I don't feel any hesitation about which side I should favor or concern over the natives getting offed by whalesquid attacks. Ok, maybe a little for Amy .. but it wouldn't really bother me that much.

I am curious to see what the whalesquids will do & whether the fleet will split into two, but the characters I just don't feel very connected to, other than Ledo and Chamber.

If next episode, Ledo flew away from the fleet to fight the Hideaze & other new characters were introduced, I'd be fine with that :heh:

BladeEntity
2013-05-20, 09:34
I said several ways already how the episode could have been less contrived

1) Talk about the whale squid previously not just have Ledo eat an Octopus
2) Have Pinion mention his brother beforehand and his wishes to go into that territory
3) Show us the fleet commander was ill beforehand

As for Ledo well ideally they would have built his relationship up with Gargantia more. Have him discover things about himself and the people aboard Gargantia. The job idea was actually a really good one it was just executed poorly and become more of a joke then something compelling.

It is pretty clear they never meant to do anything with the whole job search and just wanted to get Ledo down in the Ocean. But quite honestly this could have been accomplished without wasting 2 episodes on getting him to that point.

Agree with 2) and somewhat with 3). However I disagree with 1), from my perspective, it was probably the best way to introduce the idea of the whalesquid. Ledo already mentions about the Hideauze since the very beginning he has been on board the Gargantia. However, without pictures or a visual representation to the rest of the crew it would be difficult to put the idea of Ledo's enemy and the whalesquid being so similar.

The way it was done by having Ledo react to the octopus and then having Bellows and Pinion comment on what would happen if he encountered a whalesquid was great foreshadowing fit into the episode of having Ledo bond with Amy, and to be honest that would be the closest connection he has with Gargantia which I felt the previous 2 episodes did a decent job at.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-20, 09:39
This is one area where I disagree with you. I've believed the fleet commander was ill from his first episode. I have always thought the fleet commander was ill. For me, it came across especially in the scene where the commander said to Ridgett that he wondered what her father would do about the problem of Ledo and the pirates if he were still alive. He sounded like a tired unhealthy old man who was forcing himself to carry on until he was sure his replacement (i.e. Ridgett) was experienced enough that he could entrust the fleet to her. My surprise from this episode regarding the commander's health was not that he was ill but that he could walk. Up until now, I assumed he was chair-bound. I don't recall seeing him stand before this episode although may be my faulty memory at work.

Agree with 2) and somewhat with 3). However I disagree with 1), from my perspective, it was probably the best way to introduce the idea of the whalesquid. Ledo already mentions about the Hideauze since the very beginning he has been on board the Gargantia. However, without pictures or a visual representation to the rest of the crew it would be difficult to put the idea of Ledo's enemy and the whalesquid being so similar.

The way it was done by having Ledo react to the octopus and then having Bellows and Pinion comment on what would happen if he encountered a whalesquid was great foreshadowing fit into the episode of having Ledo bond with Amy, and to be honest that would be the closest connection he has with Gargantia which I felt the previous 2 episodes did a decent job at.

What they said. Which only leaves number 2, but I think it does make sense that Pinion would only mention an old wound related to whalesquids after he saw that they can be killed and that there's someone willing to do so.

Kirarakim
2013-05-20, 09:49
What they said. Which only leaves number 2, but I think it does make sense that Pinion would only mention an old wound related to whalesquids after he saw that they can be killed and that there's someone willing to do so.

It;s not so much that I was surprised something would happen to the fleet commander but sorry I don't think they did a good job of building up the importance of his character or Ridget's reliance on him. These are things that could have made what happened have more meaning. Having him have a check up and then a heart attack in the same episode (right when things are going down) seems like sloppy writing to me.

As for the whale squid yeah they mentioned it by name (which I admit I forgot) but I would have still liked to know more about them before this episode. Not Ledo sees the whale squid attacks, and then we learn their relationship with Gargantia. Even if that means people would guess beforehand they might be the Hideauze (it's not like it was some huge surprise the way they did it either).


I am fine with people disagreeing but it doesn't change my opinion.

Reckoner
2013-05-20, 09:55
^

The commander has been shown to be in flat out retirement, "I'm going to die soon" mode for quite a while now. He's been pushing the leadership onto Ridget the entire time.

And you think that's sloppy writing? That's just being unreasonable. I get it, you didn't like the focus of episodes 5 and 6, and that's affecting your enjoyment, but you're making way off base claims to justify yourself here by ignoring the actual content of not only those episodes, but the ones before those.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-20, 10:01
Well now, I think Kirarakim made her point clearly.

The fact that she felt that it wasn't well executed won't change. I guess it just didn't work for her the way they did it.

At the same time I think that we also made a point that it is very hard to argue that there was something objectively wrong with this episode. Not on a level that deserves serious criticism at the very least.

Kirarakim
2013-05-20, 10:02
The commander has been shown to be in flat out retirement, "I'm going to die soon" mode for quite a while now. He's been pushing the leadership onto Ridget the entire time.


That is not what I said. I said they didn't bother to develop his importance or Ridget's relationship with him at all. One line about Ridget reminding him of her father doesn't really cut it for me.

And I said it was sloppy writing to have the commander have a checkup and then a heart attack in the same episode, conveniently when all of this started happening.

I feel the writing in this episode was contrived and sloppy with a lack of development for the events that happened. I am not saying nothing in this episode was foreshadowed but instead of focusing on things that would happen in this episode they focused on things that would end up being unimportant.

If you love the episode and think it was the best thing ever, more power to you. Notice I am not trying to tell anyone they are wrong for thinking differently from me.

Reckoner
2013-05-20, 10:10
Convenient? The stress of the situation is likely what did him in, it's a logical and sensible outcome of what preceded it. Development wise, we still have half the series. I suspect the commander isn't even dead yet, though he's getting closer to his death bed. There's still time.

I'm going to guess we'll get at least one good conversation between him and Ledo at some point, and most likely more development for Ridgett.

Kirarakim
2013-05-20, 10:19
I'm going to guess we'll get at least one good conversation between him and Ledo at some point, and most likely more development for Ridgett.

Well if they do fine, I am only talking about my issues with this episode, not saying the entire series is now ruined.

Also on their own my issues are small, it's just everything piled up. My real issue is instead of developing and focusing on things that would be important to this episode, the series wasted time on things that were not important at all. And yes sorry to say this did affect my enjoyment of this episode.

mikeomni
2013-05-20, 10:29
It;s not so much that I was surprised something would happen to the fleet commander but sorry I don't think they did a good job of building up the importance of his character or Ridget's reliance on him. These are things that could have made what happened have more meaning. Having him have a check up and then a heart attack in the same episode (right when things are going down) seems like sloppy writing to me.


I have to agree the pacing felt a bit off. They could easily have inserted a scene in the previous two episodes where the captain having a check-up. The last hint to the problem was episode 3's discussion between Ridget and Fairlock on what to do with Ledo. Similarly the pirates have been forgotten since that episode. The intent must have been "the sky is falling and I don't know what to do." Executing it is hard without making it feel "shounen" cheap when we're expecting "seinen" smooth.

We did have the revelation of a Hideauze and it's quick demise. Then the positive feelings between the Gargantians and Ledo do a complete reverse. The most symbolic scene was Chamber, Amy and Ledo being on the crane again with Ridget pointing a pistol at him. The scene conveys a reset of their relationship now the Hideauze have changed the equation. Ridget and Amy are opposite of Ledo. Instead Pinion and Flange who were against him are on his side. With Fairlock coming off the picture, Ridget won't be able to suppress them. For the most part the writers did well, but it wasn't perfect.

Given the new pace. I would expect the next episode will let the changes sink in for a few minutes, then another sudden development. Maybe something like Ledo and company nonchalantly making deals with the pirates.

-Sho-
2013-05-20, 10:29
Erf Ledo was too stubborn to keep wanting to fight the whalesquid while the Gargantia's safety was at stake.
They could have let him chase them undersea -.-

Gundamx
2013-05-20, 10:32
if Hideazu arrive in past > could it be the reason why human leave the Earth in first place?
+
also it look like their nest = near treasures ( human technology)

cf18
2013-05-20, 10:47
Heh you know the show is good when viewers can have good debate without an obvious answer.


https://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1369/01/1369012221332.jpg

LOL this "Ledo" has an extreme case of North Korea brainwashing.

Here is what I imagine how Bellows would reply, after learning as much about the space human as us viewers have:


"We forged epic?" Can anyone of your people still play music or dance? Why are you making this flute when you didn't even know what it is. What kind of "wonder" did you build when you don't even have enough oxygen and food for everyone?

So how do these "marvels of engineering" helped your family? Oh wait you don't even know the word "family" because your people are raised by machines to be soldiers only. And anyone who were deemed unfit to fight are executed and recycled, because your society only know one thing now - to fight these space squid. My god your world disgust me, why would you kill your own people in order to kill space squid more effectively? Are you even allowed to retire and get old? Your society don't even have any plan for after winning this war - may be you will just continue killing any living things you run into because you know nothing else! But I guess you have no plan because the war is obviously futile?

I don't blame you Ledo, you have no choice but to be programmed to fight just like Chamber. You are a puppet, not me. I can quit savaging tomorrow and go clean cow shit. If you quit being a soldier in your world you will get recycled or re-brainwashed. Hell you can't even have sex without permission from your computer. Now on that topic... I already taught Amy all she needs to know, so if you ask her nicely she can teach you more about being human. ;)

Gundamx
2013-05-20, 10:59
Heh you know the show is good when viewers can have good debate without an obvious answer.



LOL this "Ledo" has an extreme case of North Korea brainwashing.

Here is what I imagine how Bellows would reply, after learning as much about the space human as us viewers have:


"We forged epic?" Can anyone of your people still play music or dance? Why are you making this flute when you didn't even know what it is. What kind of "wonder" did you build when you don't even have enough oxygen and food for everyone?

So how do these "marvels of engineering" helped your family? Oh wait you don't even know the word "family" because your people are raised by machines to be soldiers only. And anyone who were deemed unfit to fight are executed and recycled, because your society only know one thing now - to fight these space squid. My god your world disgust me, why would you kill your own people in order to kill space squid more effectively? Your society don't even have any plan for after winning this war - may be you will just continue killing any living things you run into because you know nothing else! But I guess you have no plan because the war is obviously futile?

I don't blame you Ledo, you have no choice but to be programmed to fight just like Chamber. You are a puppet, not me. I can quit savaging tomorrow and go clean cow shit. If you quit being a soldier in your world you will get recycled or re-brainwashed. Hell you can't even have sex without permission from your computer. Now on that topic... I already taught Amy all she needs to know, so if you ask her nicely she can teach you more about being human. ;)


there is 2 group >>> soldiers and citizen
Ledo was soldier who have right to capital to have fun // but before he could see it > end up in earth as we saw in first eps

Jan-Poo
2013-05-20, 11:39
They still don't have a real planet to live in and they are still getting their asses kicked by a bunch of galactic seafood.

While I'm with the Alliance philosophy, I still think that Gargantia has the better living conditions. From a pragmatic sense they'll be the winners as long as the Alliance doesn't actually manage to overthrow the hideauze from their position as the rulers of the universe.

Until then the Alliance doesn't have much to boast about, they are still not the dominant species.

Irenesharda
2013-05-20, 11:49
there is 2 group >>> soldiers and citizen
Ledo was soldier who have right to capital to have fun // but before he could see it > end up in earth as we saw in first eps

I think that's an important thing to consider. Red is a soldier, it's his occupation and who he is. There is nothing wrong with that. Yes, he can be his own person AND he can also be a soldier, but just because he's a soldier doesn't mean they should continually guilt him for it.

The Gargantians are civilians and therefore cannot understand his ways. There is nothing wrong with that either.

However, civilians a majority of the time don't think like soldiers, and Red, despite enjoying an impromptu "shore leave" has never resigned from his duty and he's not going to go AWOL. He's a soldier who thinks like a soldier. That's why they can't really meet in the middle. Each group thinks differently and has different priorities.

However, each one should handle the situation they are suited for. In adjusting to civilian life, Red takes the Gargantians lead. However, in times of battle when there is an enemy present, Red is the foremost authority.

Gundamx
2013-05-20, 11:53
err I mean ledo soldiers > come from country which have citizen in capital ( 2 group )
I am sure the citizen group from ledo country know how to dance and sing...etc

Anh_Minh
2013-05-20, 11:57
I think that's an important thing to consider. Red is a soldier, it's his occupation and who he is. There is nothing wrong with that. Yes, he can be his own person AND he can also be a soldier, but just because he's a soldier doesn't mean they should continually guilt him for it.

The Gargantians are civilians and therefore cannot understand his ways. There is nothing wrong with that either.

However, civilians a majority of the time don't think like soldiers, and Red, despite enjoying an impromptu "shore leave" has never resigned from his duty and he's not going to go AWOL. He's a soldier who thinks like a soldier. That's why they can't really meet in the middle. Each group thinks differently and has different priorities.

However, each one should handle the situation they are suited for. In adjusting to civilian life, Red takes the Gargantians lead. However, in times of battle when there is an enemy present, Red is the foremost authority.
The conflict isn't a soldier vs civilian things. It comes from the fact the Ledo is loyal to the Galactic Alliance, while the Gargantians don't care about it. And, more charitably, because they're powerless against the whalesquid, while also being right there where the possible retribution would come.

It's not a question of "way of thinking". Their interests really are in conflict.

Irenesharda
2013-05-20, 12:14
But I think the Soldier vs. Civilian issue ties into that. Red is acting like a soldier and has certain interests in regards to his priorities. He sees the Hideauze as a threat and because the Gargantians are civilians, they would rather hide from a problem they don't know how to face. The Gargantians have different issues than Red because he's a soldier. That's why they are constantly telling him to "not think militarily" to realize "he's not in space anymore", that he can let it go and "be his own person".

That is unfair to Red since they are expecting him to assimilate to their culture and forget his own, without having respect or understanding his. He cannot forget his duties and interests, no more than they can forget theirs.

Triple_R
2013-05-20, 12:28
My impression is that the Gargantians are a bit mystified/horrified by Ledo's desire to kill the whalesquids. I get the impression that for the Gargantians, they and the whalesquids have peacefully co-existed for some time now, and so they naturally don't see any need for conflict between them and the whalesquids. Now, Pinion's situation seems to suggest that there is the odd exception to this (the implication to his words is that his brother was killed by a whalesquid), but such exceptions may well be rare, and even understandable from a whalesquid perspective.

I really do get a subtle vibe from this anime that humans are (were?) actually the aggressors in the human/whalesquid war. In which case, the position of the Gargantians becomes much stronger and more wise in appearance.

However, Ledo's actions and thinking is reasonable given that he has almost every reason to believe that the whalesquids/hideauze are a terrible threat to humanity.

inisipis
2013-05-20, 13:22
It's quite understandable that Ledo's mindset is being to a military stance, being raised solely for battle. Disposable cannon fodder to a world at war to which circumstances seem not entirely explained, except for the basic of pure survival. His intent and action can be considered prudent. With his limited knowledge, a course of preemptive strike looks indeed as a wise measure. But then again he is running on a very limited knowledge, many things may not as they seem. The expedition could be a good chance for him to make sense of all these before finally committing real action.

The situation in Gargantia and their relationship with the Earthbound whalesquids/hideauze reminds me a lot of the dynamics between the people of the Valley of the Wind and Ohmu/forest insects from Miyazaki's Nausicaa OTVOTW. It's like a mix of respect and reverence to fear and animosity. Makes me want to know more about these so-called ancient technologies like the Nano machines and such and how did or if it did come about past Earth's civilizations destruction and what consequences are there to their future.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-20, 13:23
But I think the Soldier vs. Civilian issue ties into that. Red is acting like a soldier and has certain interests in regards to his priorities. He sees the Hideauze as a threat and because the Gargantians are civilians, they would rather hide from a problem they don't know how to face. The Gargantians have different issues than Red because he's a soldier. That's why they are constantly telling him to "not think militarily" to realize "he's not in space anymore", that he can let it go and "be his own person".

That is unfair to Red since they are expecting him to assimilate to their culture and forget his own, without having respect or understanding his. He cannot forget his duties and interests, no more than they can forget theirs.

But the Gargantians do have soldiers, who also want to hide whenever something scary's in the vicinity. And if Ledo was a GA civilian, the Hideauze would still be his enemies. Though, yes, he might be more inclined to stay put and wait for rescue as opposed to trying to kill them himself.

Endless Soul
2013-05-20, 14:09
Interesting that Nausicaa is being brought up as a comparison as I just re-watched that movie last week, and I can totally see the similarities to the recent developments of Gargantia, especially the "harm one, the rest will come after you in swarms" aspect.

I wonder if Ledo has a way of showing the Gargantians video footage of the space snails he fought to help them understand why he views the whalesquids as a deadly threat.

Endless "Analyze this" Soul

Irenesharda
2013-05-20, 14:11
But the Gargantians do have soldiers, who also want to hide whenever something scary's in the vicinity. And if Ledo was a GA civilian, the Hideauze would still be his enemies. Though, yes, he might be more inclined to stay put and wait for rescue as opposed to trying to kill them himself.
Gargantia doesn't really have soldiers as much as they have a security task force. A security guard or a policeman does not always a soldier make.

I'm just saying that because Red and the Gargantians come from different backgrounds that they cannot understand each others interests. If Red had grown up and lived as a GA civilian, then he would think they way they do. He has however instead grown up a more militaristic and advanced environment and has been taught to fight the enemy and not hide from it (unless that is a battle tactic), and has been fighting the Hideauze for 16 years. He knows them more intimately than anyone on Earth. He knows and has seen with his own eyes what they can do. And I don't think there is anyone, especially these primitive people that can convince him otherwise. They haven't seen what he's seen.

My biggest problem is that while Red does take the time to interact with their culture, they simply dismiss his, and correct him all the time for thinking the way he does, just because it clashes with their own. In order for a culture exchange to work, they has to be an actually exchange, it can't be that Gargantia simply tells Red he's wrong and blaming him every time he does something deviating away from what they're comfortable with. They don't even want to take the time to listen as to why he thinks the whalesquids are so dangerous, or why he must destroy them before they eventually destroy humanity. They dismiss his duty and responsibility to the Alliance as if it means nothing, despite those being their fellow humans up there being slaughtered. Red even mentions this in his argument with Bevel and Amy, that they care more about the squid than they do for their fellow humans who are being killed by them.

cf18
2013-05-20, 14:29
err I mean ledo soldiers > come from country which have citizen in capital ( 2 group )
I am sure the citizen group from ledo country know how to dance and sing...etc

I think they don't. Song and dance are inefficient and unnecessary. Ledo from ep4:

You don't have a family?
> Inefficient. Unnecessary.

> In the Galactic Alliance, weak individuals are removed and disposed of.
> Individuals incapable of combat are considered unnecessary.

> I also cannot understand why you protect the weak.

What's a Hideauze?
> Alien lifeforms that threaten humankind.
Are you constantly fighting them?
> The conflict has lasted since the founding of the Galactic Alliance up until the present day

> The purpose of mankind is to subjugate the enemy, the Hideauze.
> Otherwise, the steady progress of mankind cannot be guaranteed.
You think so?
> In the Galactic Alliance, people like you would be weeded out immediately.

> Only the lives of those who are fit for battle are deemed to be worth preserving.


And then watch his tears. Even a little memory of sadness was erased. This Galactic Alliance is only a few step away from become like the Zentradi from Macross.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-20, 14:42
I can see how the Gargantians would dismiss Ledo, though. Even with his cool space robot, he is just some guy they pulled up from the bottom of the ocean; if they had just thrown him back in, their lives would not have changed dramatically from how they had been living it since the ice melted. There is plenty of social commentary to be had there, but the Gargantian viewpoint is not particularly illogical. They are just coming from a vastly different worldview than he is.

Bern-san
2013-05-20, 15:27
I still don't like how Gargantians have treated Ledo.
Like I said ago some time ago, aside from Amy and her brother the rest of the people weren't interested in Ledo to try and teach him stuff or get to know him and comprehend the way he was raised as a soldier. The only times they approached him was because they wanted to use Chamber for their own benefits so I find it a bit unfair that now Ridget blames him for acting like he is in space when he has only spent a short amount of time in a completely different society. ¡

I do understand that for Gargantians the Hideauze is serious business so they can't help but get angry at Ledo for troubling them unnecessarily. And that in the end Ledo will probably learn that their thinking is the correct one.

I still enjoyed the episode and look forward to the next one.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-20, 15:31
I do understand that for Gargantians the Hideauze is serious business so they can't help but get angry at Ledo for troubling them unnecessarily. And that in the end Ledo will probably learn that their thinking is the correct one.

Eh. I hope this anime won't validate those who prefer to live like slaves over those who at least try to master their destiny.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-20, 15:51
Eh. I hope this anime won't validate those who prefer to live like slaves over those who at least try to master their destiny.

Don't set your hopes too high for that. I can totally see that coming.

Dop
2013-05-20, 16:21
Ledo is effectively brainwashed to kill Hideauze. They refer to his conditioning in the first episode.
Faced with what he believes is the enemy, the conditioning has kicked in, and I think the test will be whether he chooses to break out of his conditioned role, which may be down to Amy.

I still suspect that while the whalesquid may be a genetic match to the Hideauze they are not exactly the same thing.

I get the impression from previous series that Gen Urobuchi is something of an SF fan, and I'm reminded here of "Time", the first book in Stephen Baxter's "Manifold" trilogy, in which genetically engineered squid are used to control spacecraft, and adapt to space travel.
They're still squid, but they're intelligent, space-faring squid, and defend themselves. Sound familiar?

Libros
2013-05-20, 16:24
Real quick, how old is Ledo and how long's he been fighting the Hideauze?

Jan-Poo
2013-05-20, 16:31
Real quick, how old is Ledo and how long's he been fighting the Hideauze?

In EP1 Chamber says that Ledo exceeds 145000 hours of service. That's about 16 years and a half.

Ledo is 16 years old according to the official site, so he basically was a soldier from the time he was born.

Libros
2013-05-20, 16:39
In EP1 Chamber says that Ledo exceeds 145000 hours of service. That's about 16 years and a half.

Ledo is 16 years old according to the official site, so he basically was a soldier from the time he was born.

That really takes the saying "gotta teach 'em while they're young" a bit too literally.

cf18
2013-05-20, 16:42
Eh. I hope this anime won't validate those who prefer to live like slaves over those who at least try to master their destiny.

You are missing the part that Ledo is a slave soldier of the Galactic Alliance.

Irenesharda
2013-05-20, 16:55
You are missing the part that Ledo is a slave soldier of the Galactic Alliance.

Well technically he's not a slave, the Alliance seems to have done away with the concept of money entirely, and we don't know everything about the Alliance and it's society since they don't go into it much except for what little bits Red has revealed. They don't control everything about Red since he can make his own decisions if he wants.

Casshern
2013-05-20, 17:06
Eh. I hope this anime won't validate those who prefer to live like slaves over those who at least try to master their destiny.

Imo it's the other way around. The Gargantians are living for their own sake and their own happiness. While they don't seem to have a collective purpose other than "to live", Ledo is even less free than them. He's serving someone else's purpose, following someone else's rules and even his destiny and knowledge of the world was decided by someone else before he was born. Worse still, he's trying to impose this purpose, that was ingrained in him, on the people he's living with.

I would risk guessing that he's not even aware of the true nature of the conflict or even which side started the war and for what reason.

Even with the pirates and Hideauze, the fleet survived well enough without Ledo and each citizen had a chance to live their own life and be happy. Ledo's actions endangered everyone, both against the pirates and Hideauze. Especially against the later, there's no guarantee that he would win. If he died, there would be nothing to save the fleet from being exterminated.

He didn't even calculate the risk. Just a few enemies could occupy him long enough for the rest to annihilate the fleet.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-20, 17:24
Well we know that the soldiers of the alliance are not free to:

drink whatever they want
eat whatever they want
sleep whenever they want
have sex whenever and with whomever they want


So Ledo is just like your average 16 year old guy.

cf18
2013-05-20, 17:31
Well technically he's not a slave, the Alliance seems to have done away with the concept of money entirely, and we don't know everything about the Alliance and it's society since they don't go into it much except for what little bits Red has revealed. They don't control everything about Red since he can make his own decisions if he wants.

He revealed more than enough - babies are taken from their parents and raised to be soldiers, inferior specimens are discarded. Their memory were altered if necessary to be more efficient war machine. Ledo can make decision that his military rank allowed, but should he decide to desert I'm sure Chamber will execute him.

Are we even watching the same show? Who is this "Red"?

Anh_Minh
2013-05-20, 17:38
Imo it's the other way around. The Gargantians are living for their own sake and their own happiness. While they don't seem to have a collective purpose other than "to live", Ledo is even less free than them. He's serving someone else's purpose, following someone else's rules and even his destiny and knowledge of the world was decided by someone else before he was born. Worse still, he's trying to impose this purpose, that was ingrained in him, on the people he's living with.

I would risk guessing that he's not even aware of the true nature of the conflict or even which side started the war and for what reason.

Even with the pirates and Hideauze, the fleet survived well enough without Ledo and each citizen had a chance to live their own life and be happy.
So their cage isn't that uncomfortable. It's still a cage. Though I'll note, Gargantia would have serious problems if another cataclysm happens, without the advanced technology they can't afford to have because of the Hideauze. Or if they come across some pirate band that isn't happy with just a small tribute. Or if the Hideauze change their mind about leaving them alone. The grasshopper thought complacency was great too. In the summer.

But to go back to my point: I won't pretend that the GA are free either. The Hideauze are a threat, and to deal with them they've sacrificed a lot. But at least they're still fighting. They're still trying to get out of their damn cage.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-20, 17:55
Are we even watching the same show? Who is this "Red"?

I guess some translators decided to transliterate "レド" (RE DO) as Red, which can't be said to be completely wrong. An official transliteration doesn't exist as far as I know, but to be fair the color "red" is usually transliterated as "レッド" so it's unlikely the the authors of Gargantia were thinking of that.

A similar issue exists for the Hideauze "ヒディアーズ" which does sound pretty close to "hideous". however the elongation of that vowel is odd and it may suggest that it isn't meant to be "hideous" after all. "Hideauze" reflects better the sound of the original.

Revolutionist
2013-05-20, 18:29
Well, I went back and re-watched episode one to confirm a few things I thought happened.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2zio3nk.jpg

I suppose that kinda confirms it. Ledo wasn't just talking out of his ass when he told the Gargantians the Hideauze are leaving them alone because their technology is so backwards.

The things consume energy, and for the GA it's not an option to try to coexist. While deep space exploration and the challenges it brings can lead to the sort of system the GA is, for them to not have words for co-existance tells me chances are the GA is something that formed because of the Hideauze. Instead of just being a dystopian society that picked up a fight with a benevolent alien race.

apotheosis
2013-05-20, 18:51
I suppose that kinda confirms it. Ledo wasn't just talking out of his ass when he told the Gargantians the Hideauze are leaving them alone because their technology is so backwards.

The things consume energy, and for the GA it's not an option to try to coexist. While deep space exploration and the challenges it brings can lead to the sort of system the GA is, for them to not have words for co-existance tells me chances are the GA is something that formed because of the Hideauze. Instead of just being a dystopian society that picked up a fight with a benevolent alien race.

Yes, that seems to fit with the information we've been shown so far.

The way the GA was presented, it doesn't seem as much a totalitarian society for the sake of control/oppression as one pushed to the brink of dissolution & desparate to use whatever means necessary to survive. We only had a brief look at it, so that could be deliberately misleading, I suppose.

Hooves
2013-05-20, 19:38
I have a feeling that the Galactic Alliance will come to Earth when they see/discover signed of Hideauze there. Then another big battle/war will erupt on Earth and things will get even crazier. Other then that, I for one think the Gargantians have been exploiting Ledo while still not allowing him into their society entirely. Sure there were some warm-hearted parts, and Ledo is free to do whatever he wishes.

But if something goes wrong, they are simply going to use Ledo as a scapegoat. Even now, he's being taken advantage of the situation because treasure hunter instincts are arising and using Ledo as a bodyguard and exploiting his deep hatred for the Hideauze is shown briefly. Hopefully some people can show Ledo in a "peaceful and calm" manner about how to slowly join the society they live in.

Irenesharda
2013-05-20, 19:48
Yes, that seems to fit with the information we've been shown so far.

The way the GA was presented, it doesn't seem as much a totalitarian society for the sake of control/oppression as one pushed to the brink of dissolution & desparate to use whatever means necessary to survive. We only had a brief look at it, so that could be deliberately misleading, I suppose.

I'm glad someone caught that. So they do eat energy. That would be death for the GA. Unlike the ships of Gargantia, spaceships and space colonies can't turn off all their power. They would not only be sitting ducks, but they depend on life support and other things to live. There is no way they can live side by side with the Hideauze if the Hideauze is going to attack them simply to consume their energy.

I too thought that way about the GA, they are not brutal or cold just because. I mean imagine that you had just lost your planet and you have to find a way to live in that cold vastness with only limited energy, supplies, and food. Not to mention you are constantly being attacked by strange energy draining monsters. The culture would have to adjust to survive, which is why resources are measured and given out, birth rate is limited, soldiers are needed to fight and protect the civilians. There is no longer money or fighting between humans. Weakness is eliminated, as well as unnecessary things, and they have had to constantly advance in order to live. Unfortunately, every time they advance, they become more appetizing to the Hideauze, which means more battles and more destruction until they are able to destroy the Hideauze once and for all.

Humankind became a cold, sterile people in order to adapt to their cold, sterile environment. However, I think like Red, if the Hideauze were no more, and they were able to find a suitable planet to settle on (which Red states that is the Alliance's dream), then I think that humanity's humanity would eventually return.

FredFriendly
2013-05-20, 19:54
My real issue is instead of developing and focusing on things that would be important to this episode, the series wasted time on things that were not important at all.

What, like needlessly exploiting young females with provocative belly dancing and erotic, tete-a-tete, might-as-well-be lap dancing? Like voluptuous females with their assets busting out of bathing suits to ensure that a certain segment of the DVD/BD buying market lusts after those specific episodes? Just how much time did they waste on Ledo being chased about by transvestites? Was that supposed to be funny?

Yup, I agree with you on that score. Time was wasted on frivolous things [that increase sales] instead of broadening our base of knowledge about the various characters, interactions, and threats that our MC would have to deal with in future episodes.

Now, Pinion's situation seems to suggest that there is the odd exception to this (the implication to his words is that his brother was killed by a whalesquid), but such exceptions may well be rare, and even understandable from a whalesquid perspective.

If Pinion is, indeed, a reflection of his brother, I suspect that it was his brother, not a whalesquid, that initiated any conflict that caused his brother's demise.

Irenesharda
2013-05-20, 20:09
If Pinion is, indeed, a reflection of his brother, I suspect that it was his brother, not a whalesquid, that initiated any conflict that caused his brother's demise.

Well, we'd have to see a flashback to confirm, but usually in anime, if one brother (usually the younger, like Pinion) is a reckless idiot who goofs off and such, the other brother, usually the elder (as in this case), is the responsible, careful one who constantly takes care of and protects the younger.

So, we can't say yet whether or not it was Pinion's brother's fault or not.

KrimzonStriker
2013-05-20, 20:13
What, like needlessly exploiting young females with provocative belly dancing and erotic, tete-a-tete, might-as-well-be lap dancing? Like voluptuous females with their assets busting out of bathing suits to ensure that a certain segment of the DVD/BD buying market lusts after those specific episodes? Just how much time did they waste on Ledo being chased about by transvestites? Was that supposed to be funny?

Yup, I agree with you on that score. Time was wasted on frivolous things [that increase sales] instead of broadening our base of knowledge about the various characters, interactions, and threats that our MC would have to deal with in future episodes.


Bit harsh Fred, slice of life scenes are actually a big feature of the series and supposed to offer the proper contrast in this case. And I thought Ledo's reaction was hilarious with the transvestites :p

andyjay729
2013-05-20, 21:40
Man, this episode really drew the right-wingers out of the woodwork.

Wonder how they'll react if it turns out the Hideauze are just like bears going dumpster-diving.

Y'know, I kinda prefer that theory myself. It would be an interesting twist on the usual aliens-were-just-misunderstood ending. The Alliance might be expansionist social Darwinists, but the Hideauze are also greedy gluttons. It'd also fit with Gen's morally ambiguous casts.

FredFriendly
2013-05-20, 21:52
Well, we'd have to see a flashback to confirm, but usually in anime, if one brother (usually the younger, like Pinion) is a reckless idiot who goofs off and such, the other brother, usually the elder (as in this case), is the responsible, careful one who constantly takes care of and protects the younger.

So, we can't say yet whether or not it was Pinion's brother's fault or not.

Okay, so an alternative hypothesis is that big brother was killed when trying to rescue little brother who had, himself, caused an altercation with a whalesquid. Hmm... This seems even more likely.

Bit harsh Fred, slice of life scenes are actually a big feature of the series and supposed to offer the proper contrast in this case. And I thought Ledo's reaction was hilarious with the transvestites :p

I'm not disputing whether or not that slice of life scenes are supposed to be a big part of the series, but I have already sounded my objections to the dancing scenes. Sure the transvestite scenes were funny, but were they really necessary? Did they really fit into the overall theme of this show?

I don't deny that tits and ass are nice to look at, but couldn't they have interspersed the previous two episode with a bit more information? For instance, instead of scantily clad girls just talking about themselves getting fat, couldn't the writers have worked that into a [very brief] discussion about the health of the Fleet Commander? Or how the sacred whalesquids had bestowed upon them such a glorious day to lounge around looking sexy? You know, that sort of thing.

And this whole thing with the belligerent whalesquids, I musta been asleep when I watched the first five and a half episodes. It seemed to me that, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, appears a new "enemy of the week" that makes the entire citizenry of Gargantia shudder in fear. You know, like what's-her-name, the Pirate Queen. And here comes the Knight in Shining Armored Death Machine to rescue the Damsel Amy in distress!

It just seems that there had been too much fluff in the previous two episodes, and not enough substance.

zalem
2013-05-20, 22:08
Well, at least things are picking up a bit with the series. I was really starting to get bored to be honest. Just not really excited to watch the next episode. Now at least I'm moderately interested again.

Crazy'O
2013-05-20, 23:47
There are two options, live while fearing the hideauze and never have advanced technology (Gargantia) or fight and do everything to win (Galactic Alliance) and it seems that even on the Gargantia some people would choose to fight if they had the means to.

I would fight. I think developing and using technology is an essential part of what freedom is for humanity and putting other things on hold until we regain that, even if it means we'll die trying, is worth it. But I would make sure not to forget what I fight for.

aohige
2013-05-21, 00:32
The Hideauze are.........

*drum roll*

THE ANTI-SPIRALS.

*dun dun dun*

So their cage isn't that uncomfortable. It's still a cage. Though I'll note, Gargantia would have serious problems if another cataclysm happens, without the advanced technology they can't afford to have because of the Hideauze. Or if they come across some pirate band that isn't happy with just a small tribute. Or if the Hideauze change their mind about leaving them alone. The grasshopper thought complacency was great too. In the summer.

But to go back to my point: I won't pretend that the GA are free either. The Hideauze are a threat, and to deal with them they've sacrificed a lot. But at least they're still fighting. They're still trying to get out of their damn cage.

This.

I do not feel comfortable with the idea that, living in a "don't cross this technological line or we'll eat you" birdcage is acceptable.
Gargantians have the perfect excuse of ignorance, they don't realize the advancement of humanity is kept in check.

But if those squids really are playing the Anti-spiral game, then it should not be accepted. Sure, the human alliance is probably an unideal dystopian entity, and I wouldn't want the message to take side of them. But that doesn't change the fact "dem squids are the enemy of humanity" one bit.

That is, assuming, Ledo's observation about Hideauze is correct.

backbone
2013-05-21, 00:48
Thank God, finally the plot getting back to track again. Honestly, the two previous episodes bored me to death with unnecessary, mundane slice of life thingy. Heck, i didn't even bother to post my comments here during that time :p

Upon destroying the shiny octopus, Chamber analysis that Hideauzes whom the Alliance have been fighting and the ones in the ocean are the same species totally took me by surprise. Who knows that the creatures that have been lurking all this time far below Gargantia turned out to be them? I understand Ledo's feelings to go about and just get rid the heck of them, but i cannot sympathize such thought considering he's putting all Gargantian citizen in danger. And the scene when Amy bawled her eye out for him just made Ledo look bad, and very bad for me.

Glad that there's more than meet the eyes on Pinion and i'm really thankful that he's not just the usual happy-go-lucky dude. Hope his backstory will be explored much better later to allow for some interesting twist.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-21, 01:22
Upon destroying the shiny octopus, Chamber analysis that Hideauzes whom the Alliance have been fighting and the ones in the ocean are the same species totally took me by surprise. Who knows that the creatures that have been lurking all this time far below Gargantia turned out to be them? I understand Ledo's feelings to go about and just get rid the heck of them, but i cannot sympathize such thought considering he's putting all Gargantian citizen in danger. And the scene when Amy bawled her eye out for him just made Ledo look bad, and very bad for me.


To me it made her look selfish and spoiled. What right does she have to demand he give up his identity, his people?

Theo
2013-05-21, 03:19
Man, this episode really drew the right-wingers out of the woodwork.

Wonder how they'll react if it turns out the Hideauze are just like bears going dumpster-diving.

Well every time someone shoots or runs over a bear, they don't send a huge army of bears parading through our cities. The squids are like huge, tentacled locusts.

And we all know what humans do to pests like these.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-21, 03:23
Man, this episode really drew the right-wingers out of the woodwork.

Wonder how they'll react if it turns out the Hideauze are just like bears going dumpster-diving.

Since right now, the GA are hobos who need that dumpter to live in? It doesn't change a thing. If anything, it just makes "negotiation" even less of an option.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-21, 07:17
To me it made her look selfish and spoiled. What right does she have to demand he give up his identity, his people?

Hold your horses Anh, you're going too far.

Amy thinks that Ledo is wrong and she has all the rights to speak her mind and try all that she can to persuade him to change his mind, provided she doesn't resort to violent methods.

Letting people do whatever they want without even protesting even if you think they are making a very big mistake is not how a friend should act.


As for Ridget she had the rights to stop Ledo from taking actions that would have effects on the whole fleet. Until proven otherwise he is a soldier stranded in a foreign country. He must respect the local authority or leave.


Think it in these terms. Imagine a french soldier in Swiss soil during world war II. Sure Nazi are evil all that you want, but does that soldier has the right to initiate hostilities in a foreign soil that declared neutrality?

Iron Maw
2013-05-21, 07:21
Very good episode, last week and this has been a more welcome return to form.

The best part of this episode is that we now get a better idea of conflict between the Alliance and Hideauze. Rather than being mortal enemies it's about resources; the Hideauze feed the energy the Alliance needs to live, thus a natural conflict of interests occurred.

Looking at this in a broader more symbolic prospective, I think the Alliance and Gargantia represent two different paths Humanity has chosen in response to these creatures. The humans of Alliance continued their technological advances to better their life and ended up in an large scale war with the Hideauze. The Gargantians on the other hand abandoned that way and became submissive to Hideauze instead, living a harder by more peaceful life. Which way was the right decision? It's hard to say for since both groups had to make hard sacrifices for the way they live now.

Anyway, quite looking forward to next week, moreso since it going to gave Pinion some much needed fleshing out.

The only way for this to end well is for Ledo to learn the humans were completely at fault, otherwise he'll never give up on his mission and it will have some very nasty repercussions.

Eh, honestly I don't really like this idea because it would suggest technology advancement is bad. This is more complex issue then that imo, besides despite what the Gargantians might say, they aren't really living in co-existence with the Whitesquid/Hideazue anyway. They're living in fear of them, to point where most of the population treats those sea creatures as religious icons. However considering that they have no real effective means to fight them and are more or less completely dependent on them for survival I can understand why. I can also why see those of the Alliance would not like this either.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-21, 07:42
Eh, honestly I don't really like this idea because it would suggest technology advancement is bad.

Depends on the technology advancement. If it turns out that the Hideauze only target technologies that are bad for the environment then it's a whole different story.
In that case it would turn out to be the same situation depicted in Nausicaa.

It would become a matter of Sustainable development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_development) and I think we all agree that it's something we should consider carefully.

For example, what if the planet froze and became uninhabitable because of man? And what if it's only because of the Hideauze if it became capable of sustain life again? Again Nausicaa comes to mind.


Of course there is also the possibility that the Hideauze just attack advanced technology whether it is used wrongly on wisely, in that case they'd be like the anti-spiral and they would be on the wrong side.

Hamster
2013-05-21, 07:49
Um...are you guys seeing what I'm seeing?
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a30/Chibita/1369132277839_zps29dd1a60.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/Chibita/media/1369132277839_zps29dd1a60.jpg.html)

:eyespin:

Iron Maw
2013-05-21, 07:54
Depends on the technology advancement. If it turns out that the Hideauze only target technologies that are bad for the environment then it's a whole different story.
In that case it would turn out to be the same situation depicted in Nausicaa.

It would become a matter of Sustainable development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_development) and I think we all agree that it's something we should consider carefully.

For example, what if the planet froze and became uninhabitable because of man? And what if it's only because of the Hideauze if it became capable of sustain life again? Again Nausicaa comes to mind.


Of course there is also the possibility that the Hideauze just attack advanced technology whether it is used wrongly on wisely, in that case they'd be like the anti-spiral and they would be on the wrong side.

I agree in general, however going by ep1 it does seem the Hideauze go after anything with energy (you can see them eating planet I think). So I get the feeling these beings live by instinct rather than intelligence. Of course the space bugs may just be more hostile by nature compared to them water bred cousins.

@Hamster: What.

jeroz
2013-05-21, 07:54
Keep in mind that while Alliance and Hideazu are in constant conflict with each other, Gargantia and WhaleSquid rarely cross paths. As they''d said in this episode, they rarely comes this close to the surface if at all. The only time they will get in contact with each other is when the unlucky divers gets too close to them. Otherwise if they are just doing their usual business there's no need to worry about them. Even Bellows are not fazed when one WhaleSquid was around. She just does her own business and only become flustered when Ledo started to fight it.

Seriously, if you see a massive herd of elephants running in your direction, I doubt anyone won't be scared.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-05-21, 07:58
Um...are you guys seeing what I'm seeing?
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a30/Chibita/1369132277839_zps29dd1a60.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/Chibita/media/1369132277839_zps29dd1a60.jpg.html)

:eyespin:

^ I am. I never thought that it resembles something very familiar :twitch:.

andyjay729
2013-05-21, 08:13
^ I am. I never thought that it resembles something very familiar :twitch:.

Hoo boy.

I'm surprised there haven't been any jokes about Ledo being the hero Gargantia deserves, but not the one it needs right now (though they might later). Of course, Gen doesn't seem to favor honor-bound hero archetypes (remember Sayaka).

Jan-Poo
2013-05-21, 08:15
I agree in general, however going by ep1 it does seem the Hideauze go after anything with energy (you can see them eating planet I think). So I get the feeling these beings live by instinct rather than intelligence. Of course the space bugs may just be more hostile by nature compared to them water bred cousins.

Going by the usual Nausicaa comparison the insects attack human villages indiscriminately, often massacring innocents whose only fault is to be near the "bad guys"

It seems that the Hideauze aren't different. For example in this episode Ledo started the attack on that whalesquid. Supposing that the whalesquid wasn't hostile to begin with, it would be Ledo's fault for initiating a fight, however the whalesquid decided to attack Bellows just because she happened to be another human near the one that was attacking him.


In other words there is no doubt that the Hideauze are mindless and very aggressive creatures, but just like the Ohmu in Nausicaa it might be that their ultimate purpose is good.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-21, 09:49
Hold your horses Anh, you're going too far.

Amy thinks that Ledo is wrong and she has all the rights to speak her mind and try all that she can to persuade him to change his mind, provided she doesn't resort to violent methods.

Letting people do whatever they want without even protesting even if you think they are making a very big mistake is not how a friend should act.
All I've heard from her and her brother is "stay with us, be like us". So, yes, she's demanding him to give up who he is. It's not about right or wrong. It's about conforming to Gargantia rather than the GA.


As for Ridget she had the rights to stop Ledo from taking actions that would have effects on the whole fleet. Until proven otherwise he is a soldier stranded in a foreign country. He must respect the local authority or leave.
Which is why he proposed to leave. And pointing a gun at him? She's just lucky he didn't classify her as an ally to the Hideauze right there and then.


Think it in these terms. Imagine a french soldier in Swiss soil during world war II. Sure Nazi are evil all that you want, but does that soldier has the right to initiate hostilities in a foreign soil that declared neutrality?
Yeah, but if the soldier wants to leave, why get in his way?

Very good episode, last week and this has been a more welcome return to form.

The best part of this episode is that we now get a better idea of conflict between the Alliance and Hideauze. Rather than being mortal enemies it's about resources; the Hideauze feed the energy the Alliance needs to live, thus a natural conflict of interests occurred.

Looking at this in a broader more symbolic prospective, I think the Alliance and Gargantia represent two different paths Humanity has chosen in response to these creatures. The humans of Alliance continued their technological advances to better their life and ended up in an large scale war with the Hideauze. The Gargantians on the other hand abandoned that way and became submissive to Hideauze instead, living a harder by more peaceful life. Which way was the right decision? It's hard to say for since both groups had to make hard sacrifices for the way they live now.

Except the "choice" of the Alliance isn't between conflict with the squids and life as a primitive, it's between conflict with the squids and death by space (cold, heat, radiation, asphyxia...).

Depends on the technology advancement. If it turns out that the Hideauze only target technologies that are bad for the environment then it's a whole different story.

Define "bad for the environment" In Space.

Heck, good or bad are human constructs. Is the disappearance of the dodo a tragedy? What about the disappearance of the dinosaurs? We're not guilty of that.

yankky5
2013-05-21, 10:09
Um...are you guys seeing what I'm seeing?
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a30/Chibita/1369132277839_zps29dd1a60.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/Chibita/media/1369132277839_zps29dd1a60.jpg.html)

:eyespin:

.... nice cheeks?? :twitch:

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-05-21, 10:13
And pointing a gun at him? She's just lucky he didn't classify her as an ally to the Hideauze right there and then.Anh, don’t you know the the situation of what, why, where & when the event took place? The Whalesquids were right beneath the fleet. A considerable noise and spark of energy will most likely trigger those beasts to attack Gargantia. At that critical moment, Ledo is making a ruckus and wants to fight the squids right there and then, so Ridgett was pointing a gun at him to shut him up (since words obviously couldn’t do it. Look at Amy). Ledo, as smart as he is, was able to understood Ridgett and the risk they're facing. Thus, he's willing to stand down and cooperate at that moment. The “pointing a gun” event is as simple as that.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-21, 10:19
I remember. I still think she crossed a line. Lelouch could have done it without pointing a gun at Ledo. He'd have pointed a gun at himself, which would have worked just as well.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-21, 10:22
All I've heard from her and her brother is "stay with us, be like us". So, yes, she's demanding him to give up who he is. It's not about right or wrong. It's about conforming to Gargantia rather than the GA.

Disregarding the fact that "demand" is an excessive term in my opinion in this case, since it implies some kind of order, is it really wrong for them to ask that?

For example is it wrong to ask Japan to stop hunting whales? Or to ask certain African countries to abandon infibulation?

Yeah it may be that in the end it's asking them to conform to different values from their own, but what if their values are wrong? Should those be accepted just because it's their "culture"?
I say no.


Which is why he proposed to leave. And pointing a gun at him? She's just lucky he didn't classify her as an ally to the Hideauze right there and then.

Yeah, but if the soldier wants to leave, why get in his way?

I agree that she shouldn't have pointed a gun at him right away.

However there is still no indication that they forbid him to leave. It seems that Fairlock doesn't want to let Flange go (which I don't think is fair) but that doesn't mean the same applies to Ledo since he never signed a contract.



Define "bad for the environment" In Space.

Heck, good or bad are human constructs. Is the disappearance of the dodo a tragedy? What about the disappearance of the dinosaurs? We're not guilty of that.

In space probably nothing, on colonizable planets where life exists, is an other issue though.

It seems that the major problem of the alliance is that they can't find a planet to colonize, hardly credible considering how huge the milky way is. I think it's likely that the Hideauze claimed them first.
I don't think there would even be a war if they weren't competing for those.


Regarding your second point, you don't need to go philosophical to determine what is "bad for the environment" and what it's not. Objectively speaking everything that disrupts the ecosystem and causes mass extinctions is bad for it (or at least for the animals involved, we know that they want to live right? It can't be "good" for them). That includes natural events of course.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-05-21, 10:33
I still think she crossed a line. Lelouch could have done it without pointing a gun at Ledo. He'd have pointed a gun at himself, which would have worked just as well.Well, that’s what you think. But even Ledo understood why she did that. If he didn’t, he would’ve ordered Chamber to zap Ridgett and her guards. After that, all hell will break loose for everyone (Squids vs Gargantia, Ledo/Chamber vs Squids, Gargantia vs. Ledo/Chamber) :heh:. Thank god that didn't happen.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-21, 10:36
Disregarding the fact that "demand" is an excessive term in my opinion in this case,
She was pretty forceful, though...

since it implies some kind of order, is it really wrong for them to ask that?

For example is it wrong to ask Japan to stop hunting whales? Or to ask certain African countries to abandon infibulation?

Yeah it may be that in the end it's asking them to conform to different values from their own, but what if their values are wrong? Should those be accepted just because it's their "culture"?
I say no.

Sure, they can ask. Though I'd say in this case, it's not about "values". It's about loyalty. They want him to betray the GA so they can keep their easy lives.


I agree that she shouldn't have pointed a gun at him right away.

However there is still no indication that they forbid him to leave. It seems that Fairlock doesn't want to let Flange go (which I don't think is fair) but that doesn't mean the same applies to Ledo since he never signed a contract.
They forbade it when she pointed a gun at him. That interdiction's not in effect anymore, but she still got in his way.

Of course, a lot of that unpleasantness could have been avoided if they'd just talked beforehand... (Talk as in "also listen what he had to say", instead of looking down their noses at him.)



In space probably nothing, on colonizable planets where life exists, is an other issue though.

It seems that the major problem of the alliance is that they can't find a planet to colonize, hardly credible considering how huge the milky way is.

That really depends on how rare planets that not only sustain life, but are habitable for humans are. We don't know that.


I think it's likely that the Hideauze claimed them first.
I don't think there would even be a war if they weren't competing for those.


Regarding your second point, you don't need to go philosophical to determine what is "bad for the environment" and what it's not. Objectively speaking everything that disrupts the ecosystem and causes mass extinctions is bad for it. That includes natural events of course.

Meh. Why? For the most part, it just creates another norm, in which different creatures will prosper. The dinosaur extinction was bad for them, but ultimately good for us. On a planetary scale... do those things matter?

aohige
2013-05-21, 10:47
Well, I think we're led to believe Hideauze nested near our sun to munch on it, causing the great feeze over.

I mean, considering the nature of the beast, that's the usual suspect.

And if that comes out to be true, and they're keeping tabs on humans on Earth, I'd say they're pretty much the enemy to humanity.

We may get information later to prove otherwise, but from what we know as of now..

Triple_R
2013-05-21, 10:54
All I've heard from her and her brother is "stay with us, be like us". So, yes, she's demanding him to give up who he is. It's not about right or wrong. It's about conforming to Gargantia rather than the GA.

Two points:

1. Are they in Gargantia or are they in the GA? There's an old saying of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". There's practical reasons for that old saying.

2. Given what Amy and Bevel have learned about the GA, can you really blame them? :heh:


I have a tendency to overuse Madoka Magica analogies when evaluating other anime shows, so I was going to skip over a thought I had, but since andyjay729 hinted at something very close to it...

Amy and Ledo disagreeing over how to handle the Hideauze/Whalesquid honestly reminded me a lot of Madoka and Sayaka disagreeing over how to handle Kyouko Sakura.

In both cases, two people who had been built up as typically getting along well were now in strong opposition to each other. In both cases, the bgm was pretty ominous, and the tone was dramatic/suspenseful. In both cases, the character that favored violent solutions was framed in a certain ominous way herself/himself. In both cases, the people favoring peaceful solutions looked downright disturbed and frightened.

Given what happened in Madoka Magica, I can't help but think that Ledo is now going down a path that, as well-intentioned as it may be, will lead to sadness and disappointment (if not worse) for him.

Hamster
2013-05-21, 10:57
She lowered her gun when the sexy ass squid swarm left. She mostly wanted him to shut up and sit tight for a minute so they won't get obliterated. Ledo understood that.

Immediately classifying her as an enemy just for that act is what an alien squid/xenomorph would probably do.

The top brass would not take action if Ledo decides to leave afterwards, they know they can't do anything about it anyway.

EDIT:
Bellows wanted Ledo to stay because he has become a friend and part of the community, and probably already considered as family. Jeezus how hard is that to understand?

Kanon
2013-05-21, 11:02
Eh, honestly I don't really like this idea because it would suggest technology advancement is bad. This is more complex issue then that imo, besides despite what the Gargantians might say, they aren't really living in co-existence with the Whitesquid/Hideazue anyway. They're living in fear of them, to point where most of the population treats those sea creatures as religious icons. However considering that they have no real effective means to fight them and are more or less completely dependent on them for survival I can understand why. I can also why see those of the Alliance would not like this either.

This isn't necessarily the message. We don't know for sure whether Ledo is right yet. He might be off about the Hideauze's reasons for not attacking. We don't know what kind of technology the Hideauzes are protecting underwater either or if they're even protecting these particular areas on purpose. It's too soon to draw conclusions. Some Gargantians fear the Whalesquids because they can become dangerous if you piss them off (like a lot of other animals), but this isn't the same as living in fear of them. Most of the time they have absolutely nothing to fear from them and are co-existing with them just fine. Humans leave the squids alone, and the squids leave the humans alone. This is also a form of co-existence. It's a lot better than their "co-existence" with the pirates...

Now, if it turns out the Hideauzes are purposely preventing the technological advancement of humans and are planning to destroy them if they become too dangerous for their taste then I agree humans shouldn't just accept this and bend over. This wouldn't be co-existence, but the Hideauzes lording over them. Even if the Hideauzes had a good reason to act that way like the Anti-spiral in Gurren Lagann, it would still be hard to swallow. This would make for a very bitter ending to me.

We can speculate based on the hints, but we don't have enough information to conclude for sure what the Hidezauzes' intentions are. I'm sure Ledo firmly believes what he's saying but I don't trust the Alliance since they seem to have a habit of brainwashing their soldiers. It's easier for a soldier to give up his life if he believes his cause is just. I can't dismiss the possibility that what Ledo thinks he knows about the Hideauzes might be a complete lie.

bones
2013-05-21, 11:15
But they are living in fear of them, they turned off everything and told everyone onboard to stop whatever they're doing and make no noise whatsoever. It's like they were diving into the nearest hole they could find, hoping that the monster prowling nearby doesn't notice them. I don't think that's how true co-existence is supposed to work

Jan-Poo
2013-05-21, 11:15
She was pretty forceful, though...

Sure, they can ask. Though I'd say in this case, it's not about "values". It's about loyalty. They want him to betray the GA so they can keep their easy lives.

I prefer the term "assertive" for Amy. Bevel however wasn't even that.

As for the "betraying" issue. There's a lot I'd have to say about that.

First: The alliance abandoned Earth, unlike the ancestors of the current earthlings. The alliance doesn't have any rights to dictate their agenda on a territory that belongs to another faction.
Of course they probably won't give a rat ass about that, but they'd be decidedly at fault here in my opinion.

Second: Ledo is not acting like a soldier, that's just an excuse. A soldier primary duty is to obey orders not to kill the enemy. If the orders say that they must cease fire, they cease fire, even if the enemy is in front of them.
The last order that Ledo received was to retreat, that implied abandoning the assault operation.
In his current state all that Ledo is supposed to do as a soldier is waiting for further instructions. Chamber himself told him that he should just return to cold sleep until the alliance comes.
So in a few words Ledo is acting on his own accord, and beyond what his duties requires from him.


They forbade it when she pointed a gun at him. That interdiction's not in effect anymore, but she still got in his way.

She forbade him to attack whalesquids right next to their fleet. That's absolutely legitimate considering that the whalesquids would most likely retaliate on the fleet.

Frankly speaking, Ledo can go whenever he wants and Ridget isn't so stupid to not realize that. Once Ledo enters inside Chamber's cockpit there's no stopping him. If she really wanted him to stay, she would have put him under arrest.


Meh. Why? For the most part, it just creates another norm, in which different creatures will prosper. The dinosaur extinction was bad for them, but ultimately good for us. On a planetary scale... do those things matter?

Well yeah... "Mors tua vita mea", if my neighbor dies there's more food and space for me, but does that make it "right"?
Perhaps a mass extinction event would benefit some other species in... "just" a few million years, but perhaps it's better overall if the extinction event never happened to begin with since that is certainly better for most species that already existed.

The Hideuze likely follow that principle. Actually we also do. We prefer to make it so the current ecosystem survives as it is and it matters very little that another one could exist in its place.

Shinhwa
2013-05-21, 11:26
I feel the influence of tragedy by urobutcher is slowly approaching...

Hamster
2013-05-21, 11:31
But they are living in fear of them, they turned off everything and told everyone onboard to stop whatever they're doing and make no noise whatsoever. It's like they were diving into the nearest hole they could find, hoping that the monster prowling nearby doesn't notice them. I don't think that's how true co-existence is supposed to work

In this case it does work. The rats coexist with the with the wolves by stealing scraps at night and staying out of sight.

Kanon
2013-05-21, 11:38
But they are living in fear of them, they turned off everything and told everyone onboard to stop whatever they're doing and make no noise whatsoever. It's like they were diving into the nearest hole they could find, hoping that the monster prowling nearby doesn't notice them. I don't think that's how true co-existence is supposed to work

If this was something that happened regularly and they constantly worried about it, I'd agree with you. However, this was apparently a very rare event, one guy mentioned he had never even heard of whalesquids swimming so close to the surface. If I came across, say, a bear in a forest, I'd do the same thing as them. Doesn't mean I live in fear of bears.

aohige
2013-05-21, 11:50
This isn't necessarily the message. We don't know for sure whether Ledo is right yet. He might be off about the Hideauze's reasons for not attacking. We don't know what kind of technology the Hideauzes are protecting underwater either or if they're even protecting these particular areas on purpose. It's too soon to draw conclusions. Some Gargantians fear the Whalesquids because they can become dangerous if you piss them off (like a lot of other animals), but this isn't the same as living in fear of them. Most of the time they have absolutely nothing to fear from them and are co-existing with them just fine. Humans leave the squids alone, and the squids leave the humans alone. This is also a form of co-existence. It's a lot better than their "co-existence" with the pirates...

Now, if it turns out the Hideauzes are purposely preventing the technological advancement of humans and are planning to destroy them if they become too dangerous for their taste then I agree humans shouldn't just accept this and bend over. This wouldn't be co-existence, but the Hideauzes lording over them. Even if the Hideauzes had a good reason to act that way like the Anti-spiral in Gurren Lagann, it would still be hard to swallow. This would make for a very bitter ending to me.

We can speculate based on the hints, but we don't have enough information to conclude for sure what the Hidezauzes' intentions are. I'm sure Ledo firmly believes what he's saying but I don't trust the Alliance since they seem to have a habit of brainwashing their soldiers. It's easier for a soldier to give up his life if he believes his cause is just. I can't dismiss the possibility that what Ledo thinks he knows about the Hideauzes might be a complete lie.

The problem is the vast amount of circumstantial evidences pointing towards it.

They are star-eaters.
The Earth froze over.
They react to Energy (likely as food source)
They are guarding ancient ruins of technology.
They are at war with the human race over galactic resources.

We have plenty of evidences of them being the arch nemesis of humanity.
We have not been presented with strong evidence to suggest otherwise yet.

Considering that this is a fictional story, all of this could be mislead.
But until such evidences come up, it's not looking too hot for Hideauze huggers. :heh:

Hamster
2013-05-21, 12:02
But without Ledo, the earth people are doomed because they WILL slowly improve their technology, and without knowledge of the squids intentions they will become just advanced enough for the squids to easily destroy them. They won't even know what hit them.

Ledgem
2013-05-21, 13:14
The problem is the vast amount of circumstantial evidences pointing towards it.

They are star-eaters.
The Earth froze over.
They react to Energy (likely as food source)
They are guarding ancient ruins of technology.
They are at war with the human race over galactic resources.
Maybe, maybe not. Do we know for certain that they're "star eaters"? Their main nest in space was located near a sun, but as far as I can tell we were never offered an explanation as to why. At the time it seemed more like a defensive position than anything else.

The Earth froze over, but it's no longer frozen. Clearly the sun is still functional and/or the Hideauze are no longer blocking it. It doesn't mean that they weren't the cause of the Earth freezing, but we can't say for certain.

As for guarding ancient ruins of technology, we know that they seem to have one particular ruin as their territory. We don't know why; perhaps there's some nuclear fuel there that they're feeding off of.

As to being at war with humanity, it's difficult to say what happened. Did the Hideauze start attacking humans in space, or did human development encroach on territory held by the Hideauze? Who's the true aggressor?

Anh_Minh
2013-05-21, 13:53
She lowered her gun when the sexy ass squid swarm left. She mostly wanted him to shut up and sit tight for a minute so they won't get obliterated. Ledo understood that.

Immediately classifying her as an enemy just for that act is what an alien squid/xenomorph would probably do.
Try pointing a gun at a cop. See how lightly he takes it.

The top brass would not take action if Ledo decides to leave afterwards, they know they can't do anything about it anyway.

EDIT:
Bellows wanted Ledo to stay because he has become a friend and part of the community, and probably already considered as family. Jeezus how hard is that to understand?
I know. So? Motives don't excuse everything. They certainly don't excuse how little they've tried to understand him.

I prefer the term "assertive" for Amy. Bevel however wasn't even that.

As for the "betraying" issue. There's a lot I'd have to say about that.

First: The alliance abandoned Earth, unlike the ancestors of the current earthlings. The alliance doesn't have any rights to dictate their agenda on a territory that belongs to another faction.
Of course they probably won't give a rat ass about that, but they'd be decidedly at fault here in my opinion.
That's nice, but no one's asserted the Gargantians should move for the sake of the GA. My point is that it's Ledo's right and duty to move for the sake of the GA, and the Gargantians have made no effort to understand what it meant, or to negotiate a course acceptable to all parties. All they've done is assert that Ledo had to do as they told him.

Second: Ledo is not acting like a soldier, that's just an excuse. A soldier primary duty is to obey orders not to kill the enemy. If the orders say that they must cease fire, they cease fire, even if the enemy is in front of them.
The last order that Ledo received was to retreat, that implied abandoning the assault operation.
In his current state all that Ledo is supposed to do as a soldier is waiting for further instructions. Chamber himself told him that he should just return to cold sleep until the alliance comes.
So in a few words Ledo is acting on his own accord, and beyond what his duties requires from him.
A ridiculous argument. He's so far outside the parameters of his last mission, the last orders he's received don't matter. And as he's completely cut off, of course he's expected to use his initiative. Or Chamber wouldn't have bothered to wake him up.

Where exactly does his duty lies? In practical terms? I don't know. Heck, in practical terms, it's possible and even likely he's being rash. But in general terms, his loyalty should be to the GA, and his actions motivated by the advancement of its cause. That's something the Gargantians, especially his "closest friends" should have at least acknowledged. They never did.



She forbade him to attack whalesquids right next to their fleet. That's absolutely legitimate considering that the whalesquids would most likely retaliate on the fleet.
That's something they should have negotiated. Pulling a gun on someone is either hostile or carelessly, criminally stupid.

Frankly speaking, Ledo can go whenever he wants and Ridget isn't so stupid to not realize that. Once Ledo enters inside Chamber's cockpit there's no stopping him. If she really wanted him to stay, she would have put him under arrest.
Chamber might have objected. But Chamber's overwhelming power doesn't absolve her.




Well yeah... "Mors tua vita mea", if my neighbor dies there's more food and space for me, but does that make it "right"?
Perhaps a mass extinction event would benefit some other species in... "just" a few million years, but perhaps it's better overall if the extinction event never happened to begin with since that is certainly better for most species that already existed.
See, you're starting to get it. An environment is good or bad, changes are good or bad, for particular species. The best environment for us is toxic to some other lifeforms, and vice versa.

The conditions that can support not only our numbers, but our lifestyles, are pretty narrow. Those that can support life a lot less so. So when we say "good for the environment", we really mean good for us. Either for health reasons - we mean our grandchildren will have food to eat and air to breath, or for more... aesthetic ones. We think a species of animal is cute and would like to keep it around.



The Hideuze likely follow that principle. Actually we also do. We prefer to make it so the current ecosystem survives as it is and it matters very little that another one could exist in its place.
The Hideauze, like us, favor an ecosystem that's good for our own species. They may have turned Earth into a waterworld. What do they care? They have no need for dry land.


As to being at war with humanity, it's difficult to say what happened. Did the Hideauze start attacking humans in space, or did human development encroach on territory held by the Hideauze? Who's the true aggressor?

We don't even know if they're more than animals.

Irenesharda
2013-05-21, 13:58
Maybe, maybe not. Do we know for certain that they're "star eaters"? Their main nest in space was located near a sun, but as far as I can tell we were never offered an explanation as to why. At the time it seemed more like a defensive position than anything else.

The Earth froze over, but it's no longer frozen. Clearly the sun is still functional and/or the Hideauze are no longer blocking it. It doesn't mean that they weren't the cause of the Earth freezing, but we can't say for certain.

As for guarding ancient ruins of technology, we know that they seem to have one particular ruin as their territory. We don't know why; perhaps there's some nuclear fuel there that they're feeding off of.

As to being at war with humanity, it's difficult to say what happened. Did the Hideauze start attacking humans in space, or did human development encroach on territory held by the Hideauze? Who's the true aggressor?

Well we do know that they consume energy. Yet, we are not sure as to whether they are consuming solar energy, but it does point to that since they sit their nest right up close and personal to a blazing star, that would have normally killed any other living creature.

As to whether or not the humans are the aggressors or not, that is unsure either. Since it seems to be pointing to the fact that the Hideauze might have originated on Earth, they would have had to follow the humans into space. This makes sense, since if they feed on energy, and at that time the Earth was frozen, they would follow the largest source.
(Also notice that the space Hideauze all resemble sea animals that live in the upper parts of the ocean and would have been affected by the Earth freezing over, while Earth Hideauze are giant squid that normally live in the deepest depths where they were probably not frozen and so could stay on Earth. I'm betting that is a large factor as to why there are both Space and Earth Hideauze.)

In space it would make sense for the Hideauze to attack the Alliance since they probably have the most energy around. However, them draining their energy like that would be trouble for the GA. In fact, it would be a death sentence. The GA can't turn off the power like the Earth fleets can. This makes the situations and circumstances on Earth and Space vastly different...at least until the Gargantians' energy sources begin to advance, then it might be too much of a temptation to the Hideauze.

Pen3
2013-05-21, 14:27
Much respect for Bellows as she stood her ground against Pinion. Haven't seen a strong woman in anime for some time now.

Irenesharda
2013-05-21, 15:30
Much respect for Bellows as she stood her ground against Pinion. Haven't seen a strong woman in anime for some time now.

She's good, but no one beats Mikasa from Shingeki. :heh:

SeijiSensei
2013-05-21, 19:02
I'm surprised by the degree of bloodlust in this thread considering we actually know essentially nothing about how the conflict between the GA and the Hideauze began. I don't see why any outside observer would give credence to the GA's apparent version of events. I see them as filling Ledo's head (and those of his fellow soldiers) with intense anti-alien propaganda, but we really don't know which side is the aggressor and which the victim. I see no justification so far for the campaign of extermination Ledo believes should be Gargantia's policy.

Yes, the whalesquid attacked Bellows, but perhaps it was defending the item they were trying to salvage. That seems a plausible explanation for the death of Pinion's brother as well. Indeed the older brother dying to save a younger brother gone astray seems quite plausible given Pinion's character. He wanted to kill Ledo at the outset; why wouldn't it make sense to believe he might have tried to kill a whalesquid, and his brother suffered the consequences.

I'd also like to respectfully suggest we stop speculating on Urobuchi's motives. There's no reason to believe every story he writes has to have the same themes. Waiting for armageddon, as some here seem wont to do, seems unwarranted. Give the man some room as a writer.

Oh, and Amy's motives are clear to me. She's falling in love with Ledo and wants him to stay with her and avoid dangerous missions. She even says that to him during the confrontation on the dock. To suggest that she should capitulate to his view of the whalesquids based on some war happening far away in outer space is ludicrous. She doesn't care about his war, and her people have a different view of the whalesquids that is at least equally valid, and perhaps even more so given that they have been coexisting for generations. What's so hard to understand about that?

Like Kirarakim I thought the heart attack scene was pretty cheesy.

scr
2013-05-21, 19:57
They are star-eaters.
Citation needed.

The Earth froze over.
Yes.

They react to Energy (likely as food source)
Citation needed.

They are guarding ancient ruins of technology.
Citation needed.

They are at war with the human race over galactic resources.
Yes.

I'm in the kill-hideauze camp myself, mainly because I don't hold any animals as sacred. Animal worship is repulsive to me, and I'm all for Ledo showing the Gargantians how animals should be treated.

Ledgem
2013-05-21, 20:39
They react to Energy (likely as food source)
Citation needed.
This was strongly suggested (if not outright stated) in the first episode. When the Alliance attack force was broken and the warheads were abandoned, the Hideauze began to swarm them like ants on honey. It's worth noting that they did not perform this behavior to Alliance warships or Machine Calibers.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-21, 20:54
One of the pilots wonders if the Hideauze are just going to "eat the energy of the bomb" (paraphrased), which appears to happen. That would match up with the whalesquids ignoring the fleet when it was powered down.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-21, 20:58
Not to mention Fairlock had everything shut down.

Also Ledo said that Gargantia was too primitive to attract Hideuaze but once their technology and energy production advances they are Hideauze food.

The problem with both sides is that they are too focused on the present not on the long term.

Both the humans and Hideauze utilize the Sea Galaxies. How long before humans remain under radar before the Hideauze notices them?

In fact we've seen them very territorial.

Guardian Enzo
2013-05-21, 21:52
At what point has Bevel said either "Stay with us" or "Be like us"? If anything, he seems the one most genuinely curious about Ledo's way of life, and the least judgmental of it (despite the implications for himself). That's why his conversation with Ledo was the high point of the series, its most nuanced and poignant moment - and why their relationship holds a lot of potential for the last stretch of episodes.

Irenesharda
2013-05-21, 22:56
They react to Energy (likely as food source)
Citation needed.


http://i42.tinypic.com/2zio3nk.jpg

Iron Maw
2013-05-21, 22:56
In other words there is no doubt that the Hideauze are mindless and very aggressive creatures, but just like the Ohmu in Nausicaa it might be that their ultimate purpose is good.

The many races and stars Hideauze might have destroyed due to their aggressive behavior aren't going to care about that though.



Except the "choice" of the Alliance isn't between conflict with the squids and life as a primitive, it's between conflict with the squids and death by space (cold, heat, radiation, asphyxia...).


For clarification, my assumption is that one of reasons that the earliest founders of the Alliance might have left the earth (besides the Ice Age) was partly due to the Hideauze.

This isn't necessarily the message. We don't know for sure whether Ledo is right yet. He might be off about the Hideauze's reasons for not attacking. We don't know what kind of technology the Hideauzes are protecting underwater either or if they're even protecting these particular areas on purpose. It's too soon to draw conclusions. Some Gargantians fear the Whalesquids because they can become dangerous if you piss them off (like a lot of other animals), but this isn't the same as living in fear of them. Most of the time they have absolutely nothing to fear from them and are co-existing with them just fine. Humans leave the squids alone, and the squids leave the humans alone. This is also a form of co-existence. It's a lot better than their "co-existence" with the pirates...

Does co-existence mean treating them like deities when they know their not?

Now, if it turns out the Hideauzes are purposely preventing the technological advancement of humans and are planning to destroy them if they become too dangerous for their taste then I agree humans shouldn't just accept this and bend over. This wouldn't be co-existence, but the Hideauzes lording over them. Even if the Hideauzes had a good reason to act that way like the Anti-spiral in Gurren Lagann, it would still be hard to swallow. This would make for a very bitter ending to me.

We can speculate based on the hints, but we don't have enough information to conclude for sure what the Hidezauzes' intentions are. I'm sure Ledo firmly believes what he's saying but I don't trust the Alliance since they seem to have a habit of brainwashing their soldiers. It's easier for a soldier to give up his life if he believes his cause is just. I can't dismiss the possibility that what Ledo thinks he knows about the Hideauzes might be a complete lie.

I don't trust the Alliance either given some the implications of what sort of society they are looking at Ledo. But it doesn't mean that their necessarily evil or anything, the GA may very well may have had to became the way they are because it was the most efficient action for them to survive against a strong predator. GA may not be being completely honest, but doesn't mean what they're saying is far from the truth given what we have seen of the Hideauze.

Let's not forget Gargantia still seeks some advancement for their people, hence all the digging up of old ruins. If they find something that could be breakthrough for that goal, the Whitesquids may take interest. The Gargantians should at least heed Ledo's warning for a time such a thing might happen.

Funkatron
2013-05-21, 23:39
Rewatching the episode. When the pod began swimming under the ships, Ledo had a big "oh ish" look on his face, which confirms that even he realized that he couldn't take them on his own. Also Ridget explained herself before pulling out the gun, while some people are saying she pulled out the gun first

Iron Maw
2013-05-21, 23:46
Honestly, Ledo should have realized that when he had to "bear hug" one to death when his vaporization lasers didn't work underwater.

andyjay729
2013-05-22, 00:06
Gen's a big Lovecraft fan, as shown with Saya no Uta, and here we have squid "gods".

I wonder if this story might eventually have some even more direct allusions to the Cthulhu Mythos.

One thing that's gotten lost in all these arguments about the Hideauze is the goodbye scene. Yes, I think it's actually pretty good writing to show that Ledo didn't lose his sense of duty and combat readiness so quickly, but...does anyone else think it's really sad how a guy is on the brink of discovering there's more to life than combat, only to be thrust back into it again? Adds an extra poignant dimension to Amy's tears, if you asked me, no matter which "side" you think is right.

Revolutionist
2013-05-22, 00:13
If humanity can be characterized by anything, it's our ability to adapt in order to survive. The Alliance certainly sounds like a pretty bad place to live in, but it isn't irrational. Even on Earth we will get to a point where restrictions will be placed on what we perceive as basic rights or freedoms. Hell, China already has some of those in place in the form of their 1 child policy. Resources aren't infinite, so imagine in space where they are exponentially more limited than on Earth...If on top of that we add a war with a genocidal alien race, a lot of the moral choices go out the window. When faced with certain death, and extinction, somehow eugenics doesn't sound so bad.

Hamster
2013-05-22, 01:37
Try pointing a gun at a cop. See how lightly he takes it.


Not very lightly because the cop will do the death dance first before he can reach for his gun. I get all twitchy when a cop sees me chewing on my weed.

If it was a government official on foreign soil, the cop would do the same thing Ledo did.

Ledo's not the type to hold grudges over such a thing, he certainly wouldn't unleash hellfire missiles on the entire neighborhood.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-22, 02:20
One thing that's gotten lost in all these arguments about the Hideauze is the goodbye scene. Yes, I think it's actually pretty good writing to show that Ledo didn't lose his sense of duty and combat readiness so quickly, but...does anyone else think it's really sad how a guy is on the brink of discovering there's more to life than combat, only to be thrust back into it again? Adds an extra poignant dimension to Amy's tears, if you asked me, no matter which "side" you think is right.

From Ledo's point of view he is protecting Gargantia and the rest of humanity on Earth.

Unlike his previous depiction of being cool-headed he is very hot headed when it comes to the Hideauze.

His reaction to octopus pretty much shows PTSD.

Even if he is right that the Hideauze would become a threat he is in no position to take them all. In fact he just made humans a target earlier.

On the other side Gargantians should heed Ledo's warning. Hideauze in context are like bears. Live and let live until you both clash on habitat. In this case Sea Galaxies.

For some reason Fairlock is familiar with the Squidwhale's energy detecting nature. While the rest of the population are ignorant of it.

aohige
2013-05-22, 02:28
They are star-eaters.
Citation needed.


They next very close to stars. For a reason.
Whether or not they do this to feed on it isn't set in stone, but highly suggested.
Since you know, burning star is perhaps the ultimate source of energy.


They react to Energy (likely as food source)
Citation needed.

As others have mentioned, Episode 1 and 7.


They are guarding ancient ruins of technology.
Citation needed.

Episode 7. And the website.
Not only is it clearly stated that they nest where the ruins are, the image of the ruins are clearly space-age human civilization ruins.
Are they guarding it? Well, the evidence strongly suggest so.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-22, 03:40
I'm surprised by the degree of bloodlust in this thread considering we actually know essentially nothing about how the conflict between the GA and the Hideauze began. I don't see why any outside observer would give credence to the GA's apparent version of events. I see them as filling Ledo's head (and those of his fellow soldiers) with intense anti-alien propaganda, but we really don't know which side is the aggressor and which the victim. I see no justification so far for the campaign of extermination Ledo believes should be Gargantia's policy.
Does it matter, "who started it"? We don't even know if they're more than animals.

But all signs point to "them or us".


Oh, and Amy's motives are clear to me. She's falling in love with Ledo and wants him to stay with her and avoid dangerous missions. She even says that to him during the confrontation on the dock. To suggest that she should capitulate to his view of the whalesquids based on some war happening far away in outer space is ludicrous. She doesn't care about his war, and her people have a different view of the whalesquids that is at least equally valid, and perhaps even more so given that they have been coexisting for generations. What's so hard to understand about that?

And I don't see where you got the idea anyone didn't understand Amy's motives.

At what point has Bevel said either "Stay with us" or "Be like us"? If anything, he seems the one most genuinely curious about Ledo's way of life, and the least judgmental of it (despite the implications for himself). That's why his conversation with Ledo was the high point of the series, its most nuanced and poignant moment - and why their relationship holds a lot of potential for the last stretch of episodes.
When Ledo left. When push came to shove, he didn't ask for time to talk it out, pointing out the whalesquids would still be there in a few hours. He went "Oh, you spaceman, you so silly. Your ways are stupid and you don't know anything."


Not very lightly because the cop will do the death dance first before he can reach for his gun. I get all twitchy when a cop sees me chewing on my weed.

If it was a government official on foreign soil, the cop would do the same thing Ledo did.
Because he wouldn't have a choice, without a Chamber. It's still a hostile gesture. Especially considering your first paragraph.

Ledo's not the type to hold grudges over such a thing, he certainly wouldn't unleash hellfire missiles on the entire neighborhood.

And I'm saying maybe he should. It's the only way to get the Gargantians to listen to him with a modicum of respect. Heck, Bellows even said as much. I thought she was just making dumb excuses, but it really is their culture: if you're not ready to point your weapon at them and maybe kill a few to show you're serious, you're not worth listening to.

Hamster
2013-05-22, 04:18
Because he wouldn't have a choice, without a Chamber. It's still a hostile gesture. Especially considering your first paragraph.
QUOTE]

Not all hostile gestures require a response of annihilation.

[QUOTE=Anh_Minh;4691799]And I'm saying maybe he should. It's the only way to get the Gargantians to listen to him with a modicum of respect. Heck, Bellows even said as much. I thought she was just making dumb excuses, but it really is their culture: if you're not ready to point your weapon at them and maybe kill a few to show you're serious, you're not worth listening to.

Murdering innocent civilians to get respect or because someone pointed a gun at you is not something a sane person would do. Ledo seems to have a well rounded personality considering his past lifestyle.

Making good friends in a community only to go massacre mode on them later because they won't listen to you is already waaay into crazy territory.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-22, 04:26
Not all hostile gestures require a response of annihilation.

No, but they should be answered in kind.

And while I'll grant that going right to total war in one go would be excessive, I don't see the point of not being willing to escalate as high as it needs to go before they stop thinking they can point guns at someone without there being consequences.

Tenzen12
2013-05-22, 04:42
Lets see. We have Around thirty Hideazu just under Gargantia. Ledo knows that it's people worship them and still he is VERY determined to fight them RIGHT NOW. That is sittuation.

While I share view of Hideazu being natural enemies of progress and thus humanity itself (if it's them or us, I will go with us even if it makes me look egoistic), but be right globaly is not much important when you are of danger be wiped off in metter of minutes and I don't see Ledo be obedient if Ridget just asked him nicely.

Hideazu need to be defeated, but Ridget make right call point gun on Ledo in that particular case. (Damn it! I just made enemies of mine from both opposing camps:uhoh:)

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-22, 05:03
Lets see. We have Around thirty Hideazu just under Gargantia. Ledo knows that it's people worship them and still he is VERY determined to fight them RIGHT NOW. That is sittuation.


Much less worship more along the lines people are so afraid of them they become superstitious.

Fairlock knows more about Hideauze behavior than most people on Earth. Which why ordered everything shut down and on silent running.

What Gargantians don't know those so called Squidwales are ticking time bombs. Once their civilization reach a certain level of self-sufficiency in energy production they'll feed on them like those human colonies in space.

Fairlock is a leader that would sacrifice some lives or his own so Gargantia would survive. It makes him look weak.

After years of being cowed by pirates and Squidwhales some are just plain tried of just scrapping by with their civilization declining slowly. Here comes this spacer that can annihilate pirates and fight a Squidwhale and win... barely.

These people want to resist even if it breaks status quo.

Tenzen12
2013-05-22, 05:06
Somehow I don't see any relation (except one word: the worship, which I didn't have intend to give any particular importance) between my post and your answer...

Sorry.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-22, 05:25
Somehow I don't see any relation (except one word: the worship, which I didn't have intend to give any particular importance) between my post and your answer...

Sorry.

Ridget said some still worship Squidwhales. Now that means most of Gargantians don't worship them. In fact only the old lady was praying.

Most treat them like bears you don't enter their territory you don't get killed.

Some see harming a Squidwhale brings bad luck. They no match for Squiwhales.

Since education broke down it all came down to oral traditions thus superstition about Squidwhales.

But as I pointed out some do feel fear is holding back progress. Now that they have a means to do so they want to take back what once was theirs.

Guardian Enzo
2013-05-22, 06:03
When Ledo left. When push came to shove, he didn't ask for time to talk it out, pointing out the whalesquids would still be there in a few hours. He went "Oh, you spaceman, you so silly. Your ways are stupid and you don't know anything."


No, you're saying it. He said nothing remotely resembling that.