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Forever
2013-06-03, 09:32
Excuse me while I search for my jaw....

Gen did it again.

It almost feels like zerg vs terran. All there is left is for Hideaze to eat and turn people into hideaze.

Tempester
2013-06-03, 09:34
Who was the individual Chamber murdered at the end? I suspect there are varying classes of Hideaze who perform different duties, with the highest functioning being similar to humans--- I suspect whoever died, was potentially someone important enough to plunge Gargantia into War.

That could be true. Or it could just be a juvenile form of Hideauze before reaching the more squid-like adult form seen in the rest of the episode. Notice how the Hideauze "larvae" look more human than everything else.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 09:39
The catgirls are probably extinct due to the discussions of physics in anime technology in this thread and others.

Squidgirls it is!

Well damn, at least make them cute like Ika-musume!


I prefer Captain America’s “super-soldier serum”. The ones who get it must be certified good like Steve Rogers. If bad people get it, they’ll end up like Red Skull (nobody wants that). Don’t you think it’s the best humanity-filter to decide who will survive the great 5th ice age? :D

See you get my point. Transhumanism shouldn't just come with superpowers but also with improved aesthetic factors!
When you only value efficiency and disregard everything else, you know that there's something wrong.
And it's not just a matter of aesthetic. What makes humans great is their artistic sense and their ability to enjoy life and play. Anything that would diminish that is bad in my book.

I wonder if Kaoru Chujo realized that Elaine Matsumoto has not mouth. Just what kind of improvement he sees in a transhumanism that completely prevents an individual to become one of the voice actors that he loves so much?


This reminds me of texhnolyze where in the end some people completely forego their flesh body with the exception of their head and some internal organs.

I like how Shinji commented that: "What's the point in having a body like that, if you can't even have fun with a woman?"


Hmm checked the first episode again. Ledo's supervisor Commander Kugel says:

''In 300 seconds, the entire fleet will be entering the wormhole's ergo region. We'll be swinging out right next to a Hideauze nest.
This is a surprise attack, with everything the Alliance has to throw at them.
If we fail here, consider this war over.''


I question that interpretation of Kugel's last sentence.
What he actually says is: "ato wa nai to omoe" literally "think that there won't be an after this".

This could be just a motivational speech.

Anyway at worst this would mean that the Alliance doesn't have any more ideas on how to win the war, not that they will be exterminated. The war isn't lost as long as you can fight. Kugel sacrificed his life to prevent Hideauze from following them in the wormhole, which means that they normally can't get to where humans are.

Besides when You watch that battle and you analyze what went wrong it seems that the plan could have worked if only they could recharge the dimenstrion faster. So... it's only a matter of bringing more dimenstrions along.
Of course we don't know how much it takes to create one...

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-06-03, 09:53
Well damn, at least make them cute like Ika-musume!And don't forget the awesome tentacles!! :D

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-YkdMmdJzxHY/T4ToOq1f4KI/AAAAAAAABos/-7RDBqKGy-k/s640/Shinryaku-Ika-Musume-Squid-Girl.jpg

Kanon
2013-06-03, 10:01
The Hideauze are no longer Human Transhumanists but parasites chasing their prey. The symbiont has taken over their psychology and are no longer human intellect in anyway.

We don't know that. People in this thread seem to be making a lot of assumptions based on the minimal information we got. Ledo and the Alliance's information are completely unreliable, and most likely outright lies. We have literally no clue what the current situation is like on the Hideauze side. The only thing we know for sure is that the Alliance and them are stuck in an eternal war. Both sides are probably at fault.

aohige
2013-06-03, 10:10
Well damn, at least make them cute like Ika-musume!


http://i.imgur.com/weEqC1f.jpg

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 10:10
Still, we need to consider that the information that Ledo acquired is from the main base of the Evolvers. So if those info are biased, they are biased in favor of the Evolvers and not in favor of the continental union.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 10:16
We don't know that. People in this thread seem to be making a lot of assumptions based on the minimal information we got. Ledo and the Alliance's information are completely unreliable, and most likely outright lies. We have literally no clue what the current situation is like on the Hideauze side. The only thing we know for sure is that the Alliance and them are stuck in an eternal war. Both sides are probably at fault.

Hideauze can't make wormholes but the Galactic Alliance can. Wherever the Alliance goes they go. Hence it is a parasitic existence for the Hideauze.

The Galactic Alliance on the other hand has dedicated their society so much in defending themselves and destroying the Hideuaze if there are no enemies no longer they do not know what to do.

Folenfant
2013-06-03, 10:32
LOT of praise for Gen Urobuchi this thread. I wonder if there would be this much positive talk about the writing and singling out one individual for it if it weren't that ever popular individual. I've often found when it comes to anime a select few individual entities, usually only 2 or so for each area of media (writing, production, music, animation etc.) always seem to get very heavily praised and singled out when they deliver something above average, but rarely is it unknowns when they write a solid script or good composition or make an obvious and significant contribution to making an episode or piece of work stronger. It's kind of something I wish would change so anime and it's community would open up more for other newer creators.

This is why I want to focus on the episode script writer a little here. Strangely the script for this episode was handled by Norimitsu Kaihō who wrote the much maligned episode 6 which was IMO fairly criticized for not really treading much new ground over episode 5. I'm glad they gave him this opportunity to show he's a little better than what we saw from him previously and can be given the task of penning a key episode even if Gen Urobuchi is likely to get sole credit and praise for it because he's the big popular and well liked name. I'm someone who appreciates the contributions of the lesser knowns so I appreciate the redemptive effort here even if the plot twist didn't catch me off guard since I'd factored in that contingency a few episodes back considering where a lot of the "smart" sci-fi has been going lately.

As for the second thing I feel needs to be pointed out, I find it sort of curious how people were down on the show when it was having that slow period during the middle (this is really something I especially hate by the way with anime and find it unfortunately happens a lot with 12 episode series, and that's when the middle of a show feels poorly utilized and uneventful and all the strong fleshed out portions are packed into the very beginning and ending arcs of shows), but act like everything is fixed now off of one stronger episode. I'm not so sure if that's the case yet. Yes we have eventfulness again finally, but I don't find that especially praise worthy considering a lot of shows I've been watching right now (Titan, Valvrave, Hunter x Hunter) have felt eventful all throughout give or take maybe one episode. Rather I want to see where things go from this better effort of an episode and whether they can build on it with a few more interesting surprises, developments and turns. Truth be told I'm a little skeptical if there's enough time left for anyone other than Ledo to reach a satisfying and interesting character arc conclusion. If this series ends up having a key flaw I'm still thinking it's going to be that other than Ledo and possibly Riget (who has probably already reached the end of her arc) none of the cast has felt really well developed or stands out much.

LystAP
2013-06-03, 12:33
Hideauze can't make wormholes but the Galactic Alliance can. Wherever the Alliance goes they go. Hence it is a parasitic existence for the Hideauze.

The Galactic Alliance on the other hand has dedicated their society so much in defending themselves and destroying the Hideuaze if there are no enemies no longer they do not know what to do.

Again however, that's a major assumption. It's been thousands of years since that day, and the Hideauze could have since then developed their own way of making wormholes. Just because the Union managed to make it first, doesn't mean that Evolvers haven't been able to replicate it using their bio-technology. We haven't seen any evidence that the Hideauze do not have any wormhole generators of their own, and thinking on it, the Galactic Alliance wouldn't be in such a threatened position if the Hideauze could only hijack the Alliance's wormholes. The United States was the first to explode an atom bomb, but that doesn't mean the world leeches off the U.S. nuclear material.

The Evolvers attacked because the Union managed to come up with the technology and was planning to leave the Evolvers behind to die with the Earth. It is my suspicion that neither sides plan really went accordingly; the battle between the sides may have damaged the wormhole generator and it sucked the majority of both sides into it, and fling them across the galaxy, with pockets of both sides spun off here and there (leading to the so-called wandering tribes Ledo thought the Gargantians were at start; the Hideauze probably had their own version of a wandering tribe, but the Alliance probably lumps them in together with the main Hideauze force). This also may explain why the information regarding Earth's location was lost, especially if the damaged wormhole generator spat them out at a random location, as Chamber and Ledo was. Those left behind were left with a destroyed wormhole generator and no way to escape the planet, those remnants may have ended up as the ancestors of the surface fleets and whalesquids.

Mairsile
2013-06-03, 12:45
I can't help but notice the physical similarity in Elaine Matsumoto (post-transformation) and the hideauz Chamber killed.

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that act by Chamber was the first I recall where he acted without authorization from Ledo or another human.

But I can't help but think of the queerats from Shinsekai Yori after viewing this episode.

Funkatron
2013-06-03, 12:47
Other wandering tribes could be deserters who felt like they didn't want to take part in the war.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 12:56
Other wandering tribes could be deserters who felt like they didn't want to take part in the war.

Are we sure that they can be considered "deserters"?
In the end the original group decided to use the wormhole to go far away from Earth and leave everything behind. That means that they were basically fleeing the conflict entirely.

Since the beginning the Evolvers planned to travel in space using a conventional and slower space voyage, simply destroying the wormhole wouldn't have stopped their ambitions. and even less would have killed them considering their adaptability.


The fact that what we have now is called Gallactic Alliance, suggests that the emigrant humans first split among various factions and then they united (or were forced to unite) by those that in the end decided that there was no choice but to exterminate the Hideauze.

In this context the wanderers are probably those who remained true to the spirit of their ancestors that decided that fleeing as far as possible from the Evolvers was the best solution.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-03, 13:10
Hideauze can't make wormholes but the Galactic Alliance can. Wherever the Alliance goes they go. Hence it is a parasitic existence for the Hideauze.

The Galactic Alliance on the other hand has dedicated their society so much in defending themselves and destroying the Hideuaze if there are no enemies no longer they do not know what to do.I think "parasitic" is unjustified. The Hideauze seem to live by converting stellar energy for biological use. They have no need of the Alliance for that. In fact, from what we have been told, it appears more likely (but not certain) that the Alliance chases after the Hideauze, rather than the other way around -- even if it is true that the Hideauze (or at least the Evolved) hitchhiked on the first wormhole ride from Earth. The question of how Ledo/Chamber ended up back on Earth is still unexplained. Pure chance seems unlikely. Did some remnant of the Earth's wormhole open for them?

I think the authors are portraying the Evolved as more positive and well-intentioned than the Union. They speak of making it possible for everyone to be happy. We are shown a family giving itself to the effort by becoming Evolved. The Union is portrayed as all negative, with no real solution but the escape of a few, and as having fired the first shot in the long war. That doesn't mean Hideauze society is any better than Alliance society: good intentions are not enough. But in any case, that seems to be what the writers are pushing.

...Well damn, at least make them cute like Ika-musume...!

I wonder if Kaoru Chujo realized that Elaine Matsumoto has not mouth. Just what kind of improvement he sees in a transhumanism that completely prevents an individual to become one of the voice actors that he loves so much?....I think they are cute. Those lovely sinuous arms. Maybe even cuter than Ika Musume, lol. As for the mouth, I didn't think of that. Maybe they make beautiful sounds by rubbing their tentacles together?

Anyway, I'm not about to rush out and and transhumanize myself. I'm kind of old-fashioned: I don't even have any tattoos. I just thought that in the context of this show, the Evolved seemed no worse and maybe better than their enemies, and much of the opposition to them in the thread was emotional rather than rational. Not that my own opinions aren't emotional. Just saying.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 13:14
The Evolvers attacked because the Union managed to come up with the technology and was planning to leave the Evolvers behind to die with the Earth.

Didn't you watch the video? The whole point of symbionts and the merging of species was for Evolvers to live in space as space travel was slow.

They could survive the ice age as they did not need Earth as all they need is photosynthesis.

That is what the Evolvers are supposed to be selling.

Welp the Continental Alliance creates a faster way to get out of the solar system cutting travel time.

Hijacking the wormhole drive amounts to Ragequit cause the other side found a better way while still preserving their humanity.

The Evolvers are a Transhumanist Cult that got caught performing illegal human experimentation. That means unwilling test subjects and abducting people to be merged with symbionts. The Continental Union attacked them because they were a criminal organization that violates human rights.

Tenzen12
2013-06-03, 13:22
Actualy do we have any proof that they used any unwiling humans? At least on that video weren't any. Human cloning is also forbiden even though some people would give consent in some cases.


I think the authors are portraying the Evolved as more positive and well-intentioned than the Union. They speak of making it possible for everyone to be happy. We are shown a family giving itself to the effort by becoming Evolved. The Union is portrayed as all negative, with no real solution but the escape of a few, and as having fired the first shot in the long war. That doesn't mean Hideauze society is any better than Alliance society: good intentions are not enough. But in any case, that seems to be what the writers are pushing.
In other hand do you realy consider video created by one of fraction which portrait itself good and opposing bad to be author PoV?

It would be nice if there were way of peacfull solution. Though it doesn't seems to be possible. To be honest Hidezu might not be humans anymore nor fully sentient, but they still are descendand of humans so at least moraly they shouldn't be threated as mere dangerous animals. In other hand GA become what it did to survive. Ultimately I am leaning toward GA even if it's onlu cause they losing ones.

Dawnstorm
2013-06-03, 13:30
It wouldn't shock me to find out that not only does Avalon not exist, but perhaps there aren't any civilians in the Galactic Alliance at all anymore - maybe when a soldier's useful life is deemed over, they tell them they're going to paradise to screw and party and then do to them what they did to the children they deemed unfit. Who can verify anything at this stage?

Well, children have to come from somewhere, and selective breeding (e.g. soldiers who survive long enough) makes sense. They phrase it as a right, so you don't feel forced, and since you have nothing else to do, with only the worthy around... Avalon sounds like a baby factory for future soldiers to me. (You don't want to be homosexual in Avalon... :upset: <--- Speculation.)

Making the Hideauze be former humans was just too banal of a twist, especially after seeing a few recent anime (that I won't name) use the same twist. And this revelation doesn't actually make them any more sympathetic, given how they are depicted to be warmongers who cast away their humanity to make war with "inferior" humans.

I can understand the reasoning behind this twist and its purpose in the story. It's to make Ledo question his previously unbroken resolve to annihilate the Hideauze at all costs. I still find it weak and banal.

Pretty much my reaction.

Also the exectution was just so clumsy. Who would edit digital data like that? A selective collage of newsclips with no comments? And Chamber had to kill the only cute one we saw. After all, if it was just your avarage ugly old squid...

I see the potential, but to mine it you don't keep the main revelation a secret. This revelation doesn't make me see anything in a new light; instead I just have to deal with an additional layer of humanist issues - squid ink muddying the waters.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 13:49
Actualy do we have any proof that they used any unwiling humans? At least on that video weren't any. Human cloning is also forbiden even though some people would give consent in some cases.





http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/UTW-Vivid_Suisei_no_Gargantia_-_09_h264-720p7B0ADA1Cmkv_snapshot_1828_20130604_023146_zps7 1562e8f.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/UTW-Vivid_Suisei_no_Gargantia_-_09_h264-720p7B0ADA1Cmkv_snapshot_1828_20130604_023146_zps7 1562e8f.jpg.html)http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/UTW-Vivid_Suisei_no_Gargantia_-_09_h264-720p7B0ADA1Cmkv_snapshot_1830_20130604_023239_zps2 5a94f8f.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/UTW-Vivid_Suisei_no_Gargantia_-_09_h264-720p7B0ADA1Cmkv_snapshot_1830_20130604_023239_zps2 5a94f8f.jpg.html)http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/UTW-Vivid_Suisei_no_Gargantia_-_09_h264-720p7B0ADA1Cmkv_snapshot_1834_20130604_023253_zps7 37690d0.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/UTW-Vivid_Suisei_no_Gargantia_-_09_h264-720p7B0ADA1Cmkv_snapshot_1834_20130604_023253_zps7 37690d0.jpg.html)http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/UTW-Vivid_Suisei_no_Gargantia_-_09_h264-720p7B0ADA1Cmkv_snapshot_1840_20130604_023308_zpsb 09efc96.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/UTW-Vivid_Suisei_no_Gargantia_-_09_h264-720p7B0ADA1Cmkv_snapshot_1840_20130604_023308_zpsb 09efc96.jpg.html)

Leaked recruitment materials that made the world go angry. Also consider what the Evolver scientist leader said that international laws and regulations are obsolete and they should pursue SCIENCE! freely.

Goodness that is a Mad Scientist. Evolvers has become a cult akin to CoS.

Destroying the means of humans to leave the planet by attacking orbital elevators and hijacking the wormhole gate to conquer the universe amounts to "I'll Show Them All!".

Theo
2013-06-03, 14:06
Boy, it sure has been a week for suffering, hasn't it?

And who are you, the proud squid said,
that I must bow so low?
Only a human of a different boat,
that's all the truth I know.
In a boat of gold or a boat of red,
a cephalopod still has guns,
And mine are long and armed, my Ledo,
as long and armed as yours.

And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
that lord of Hideauze,
But now the lasers sweep o'er his hall,
with no one there to hear.
Yes now the lasers SENMETSU o'er his hall,
and not a soul to hear

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 14:07
I think they are cute. Those lovely sinuous arms. Maybe even cuter than Ika Musume, lol. As for the mouth, I didn't think of that. Maybe they make beautiful sounds by rubbing their tentacles together?

Anyway, I'm not about to rush out and and transhumanize myself. I'm kind of old-fashioned: I don't even have any tattoos. I just thought that in the context of this show, the Evolved seemed no worse and maybe better than their enemies, and much of the opposition to them in the thread was emotional rather than rational. Not that my own opinions aren't emotional. Just saying.

I admit that the Elaine Matsumoto kind looks kinda cute, but at the same time it's the least functional version of the Hideauze that we have seen so far. No mouth, no hands, the tentacles aren't developed enough to be of use. That doesn't seem like the ideal form for a kid to play around.

I also don't quite understand yet if it's a different subspecies entirely or if that's how all Hideauze look when they are kids but either way the only adult and fully evolved Hideauze we see is the one in this (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4706639&postcount=193) post.

And that doesn't really look cute to me, well disregard the cute, since adult men aren't that cute either, it's more like it looks ominous, especially with all those spikes and claws, I can't help but thinking that this comes from the Lovecraft fan in Urobuchi again.

Also we have two possibilities about... the body. Either what we see is some kind of detachable shell, which would mean their sense of fashion has gone completely wrong or that is actually the body, which means the Hideauze have reverted to some kind of Precambrian crustacean.

Perhaps I'm "old styled" and that's why this "future" horrifies me.

Lovecraft in one of his short novels presented as horrifying a future where some kind of "mongoloid humans" conquered the whole world (The horror!!!). Perhaps I'm a bit xenophobic myself, but yeah I don't think I could be comfortable inside a Hideauze society.

Tenzen12
2013-06-03, 14:08
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Leaked recruitment materials that made the world go angry. Also consider what the Evolver scientist leader said that international laws and regulations are obsolete and they should pursue SCIENCE! freely.

Goodness that is a Mad Scientist. Evolvers has become a cult akin to CoS.

Destroying the means of humans to leave the planet by attacking orbital elevators and hijacking the wormhole gate to conquer the universe amounts to "I'll Show Them All!".

So no there is no such proof:heh:

Though these experiments indeed were terrifying and creepy (and ilegal of course)

Casshern
2013-06-03, 14:24
I'm surprised that people are taking the side of the Continental Union, which is an oppressive government that employs unprovoked large-scale violence against a scientific organization that's trying to find a way for humanity to survive.

The CU didn't even get approval for their attack from the UN, which makes it pretty much as illegal as the experiments they wanted to shut down. It's almost like they felt threatened by the possibility that alot of humans might survive who aren't in the elite few that get to board the ark through the wormhole.

Seriously, there aren't any good guys here, but so far the Continental Union doesn't seem to have been the lesser of two evils, at least not before the exodus from Earth.

As for who discarded humanity, I'm going to make the distinction between the Evolvers (squid currently on earth) and Gargantians against the Hideauze (squid in space) and Galactic Alliance. Both the Hideauze and Galactic Alliance sacrificed their humanity for their war, while the Gargantians and Evolvers who live on Earth retained their humanity.

I disagree with the idea that arms, legs and a face are what constitutes humanity.

Piesum
2013-06-03, 14:27
I wasn't really surprised about the revelation after we saw those hideaze larvae. But it is still an interesting twist.

I have enjoyed the series thus far. Even the 'slow episodes,' I just hope it has enough time to finish what it started now.

greensoulreaper
2013-06-03, 14:27
Something cool I noticed about this week's episode (9) was that the OP was slightly changed:

https://imageshack.us/a/img856/6325/vlcsnap2013060312h18m21.png
https://imageshack.us/a/img850/4059/vlcsnap2013060312h18m01.png
https://imageshack.us/a/img547/9779/vlcsnap2013060312h17m07.png
https://imageshack.us/a/img27/8724/vlcsnap2013060312h16m54.png

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 14:29
There are no signs that would indicate that the Evolvers are still living on earth. The whalesquids are probably just the remnants of their experiments, and there are no signs that would indicate that they are intelligent creatures.

Arms legs and a face maybe don't constitute humanity, but the ability to develop a civilization and culture? I argue that it does and we have seen none from the whalesquids.

LKK
2013-06-03, 14:34
Something cool I noticed about this week's episode (9) was that the OP was slightly changed:
[photos snipped]
I noticed that as well. However, the group shot at the end of the OP still showed Fairlock and Ridget's upswept hairdo.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 14:40
I'm surprised that people are taking the side of the Continental Union, which is an oppressive government that employs unprovoked large-scale violence against a scientific organization that's trying to find a way for humanity to survive.


Evolvers are Transhumanist Luddites and hypocrites.

They developed a means to survive space by symbiosis but they went beyond that. They got a god complex that their way is the only way.

They can survive space and feed on solar energy.

But they were not satisfied with that. They wanted to follow the Continental Union who developed the wormhole gate in order to conquer space and become the ruling species leaving the humans behind. They would steal the gate.

Greed and ambition got to them. They weren't left to die they could live in space and under the sea.

Evolvers can't stand the CU were smarter in their survival strategy invalidating what they believe in. Their way is the future.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-03, 15:03
...The Evolvers are a Transhumanist Cult that got caught performing illegal human experimentation. That means unwilling test subjects and abducting people to be merged with symbionts. The Continental Union attacked them because they were a criminal organization that violates human rights.Where did all this come from? You're at liberty to call them a cult if you want, and they did apparently violate some law, but there is no evidence in the anime that they abducted people or violated human rights. I feel like I'm in the midst of an anti-transhumanist cult.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-03, 15:18
I'm not so sure I wouldn't call what they did to Elaine a human right violation, parental consent or not.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 15:27
I'm not so sure I wouldn't call what they did to Elaine a human right violation, parental consent or not.

A child's consent in mutating her is highly dubious. `

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 15:27
For the records I also think that some people here are stating facts that can't be inferred simply on what we have seen about the Evolvers.

And I don't think that the GA is a bunch of saints either.

Both parties are at fault here, and the most logical and rational solution at this point would be to simply split the galaxy in half and agree to stay out of each other's way.

However from what I've seen neither side is willing to do so.
At this point they simply cannot trust each others. Even if they were to sign a truce they'd live with the constant knowledge that the other side hates them and it's growing, prospering, spreading and improving their weapons.


Anyway If I'd have to decide I'd rather be with the Galactic Alliance. I can't agree with the kind of path the Evolvers chose for humanity. And the human genome is not something that a single faction has the right to change. The risks are too high. Between waging war against a nation for possessing mass destruction weapons and waging war against a nation for meddling with the human genome I'd find the latter more justifiable any day.

Not because meddling with the human genome is wrong in itself, but because if you let single factions do whatever they want with that the consequences can only be catastrophic, and a lot more than any nuke can be.

Hooves
2013-06-03, 16:04
http://i.imgur.com/weEqC1f.jpg

Reading through this thread and everything. This just wins the cake for laughs.

Kirarakim
2013-06-03, 16:13
I think both the Alliance and Hideauze threw away their humanity. The Hideauze threw away their humanity to "better themselves". While the alliance threw away their humanity to ironically try to remain human.

It will probably end with the Gargantian's being the best choice, although I hope there is a twist there. I don't want Ledo to have to admit everything he knew was wrong and everything the Gargantia's show him is right. That would be disappointing & a bit too simple (even though I do really enjoy what the conflict of the Hideauze and Alliance turned out to be).

Tenzen12
2013-06-03, 16:15
A child's consent in mutating her is highly dubious. `

Her father become "evolved" of his own will, and probably with conviction, Her mother didn't showed much disdain either. Parental consensus seems likely.

Anyway evolvers experiments were violating of international laws (even their quite onesided video confirmed that) and thus armed intervence is if no just at least justifiable.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-03, 16:17
A child's consent in mutating her is highly dubious.This is true. I hadn't got the names straight. She seems happy as a squid, there with her squidified parents (?), especially as compared with being a future frozen peoplesicle. But I know that's not the point.

Anyway, to get away from the disagreement, I just noticed a couple of neat posts on 2channel: one suggested that Amy looks like Mrs. Yamamoto. Not sure it's true, but the idea of her being a descendant is interesting. I do wonder if the parentless Amy was planted in Gargantia by the Hideauze/whalesquid. Maybe Gargantia is part of the Evolvers' descendants' attempt to reverse engineer humans for Earth, now that they have managed to melt the seas.

Another makes your "cult" point with the words "Sarin Matsumoto."

In general, 2channel doesn't seem as passionately involved in discussing the rights and wrongs, but is more cool and jokey about all this, as far as I've read it.

Enjou
2013-06-03, 16:47
Wow, didn't see this twist coming.

There's a lot of unanswered questions.
1. How intelligent are the Earth Hideauze? They don't seem to use tech, but they are largely self sufficient anyways so they don't necessarily need it. Most importantly, are they sapient?
2. How much humanity is left in the space Hideauze? They seem to still be intelligent, as they use their biotech to make things like the Blossom Sail, but how much of the human psyche is left?
3. How much does the GA actually still know? It's quite possible that there may be some people at the top who know the truth, but given that the Alliance has forgotten where Earth is it's also quite possible they have forgotten that as well.


In regards to who the bad guys are, I'm pretty sure that the current conflict between the Hideauze and the Galactic Alliance is one where there isn't necessarily a good side - the refusal to coexist seems to be on both sides. Keep in mind that the Hideauze are intelligent and they haven't reached out to offer peace to the Galactic Alliance either.

The GA has also been called space Nazis, which I'm not entirely sure is fair. The vast majority of the people in the GA don't know that the Hideauze were originally humans, and it's unknown if genetic purity is still even a factor in their war against the Hideauze. At this point mere survival may really be the main motivator for their actions. Yes, they dispose of those who can't fight, but again this is likely due to necessity more than anything else - space is a very harsh environment, and unlike the Hideauze they are not self sufficient. While energy doesn't seem to be a major problem for the GA, it doesn't seem they are able to synthesize basic necessities like water or oxygen. If a ship has to sustain those unable to perform their duties on scarce resources, then the chances of it failing whatever mission it is on will increase significantly. I'm not saying it's morally right or anything, but in extreme circumstances the survival of the group may depend on individual sacrifices.

Casshern
2013-06-03, 17:17
I'm not so sure I wouldn't call what they did to Elaine a human right violation, parental consent or not.

Good thing they bombed her then.

Kleeyook
2013-06-03, 17:17
I think both the Alliance and Hideauze threw away their humanity. The Hideauze threw away their humanity to "better themselves". While the alliance threw away their humanity to ironically try to remain human.

It will probably end with the Gargantian's being the best choice, although I hope there is a twist there. I don't want Ledo to have to admit everything he knew was wrong and everything the Gargantia's show him is right. That would be disappointing & a bit too simple (even though I do really enjoy what the conflict of the Hideauze and Alliance turned out to be).

Well, the Hideauze clearly throw aay their humanity, both in physical appearance and then their mentality follow. The GA on the other hand, try to use eugenics and cloning to keep themselves pure and to produce soldiers to fight against the Hideauze. The GA also has to lie to its people about the Hideauze. But I seriously doubt anything will change just because the truth comes to light. The Hideauze doesn't seem to be nice either.

However, human history has always been like what the GA is so the GA never throws away their humanity, just their social and living standard change dramatically. Seriously, racists based on race, nationality and color have been in human history since long ago, but such radical change like the Hideauze and the war between them and the GA never exists in our history.

The best solution that human should follow is the GA imo. If people can live in spaceships there would be no need to modify themselves into some abomination. The Hideauze is an abomination of a pointless and contradicting evolution. The Evolvers claim they can live in space without spacesuit yet they still need the wormhole platform to spread their terror across galaxy. Also, we clearly have more option for space travelling than turning into Hideauze like what the GA does but their inability to accept another choice and does whatever the hell they want is the very reason why the hopeless and pointless war between both sides start in the first place.

Both humans and the Hideauze are fated to wipe each other out because the Evolvers only think about their objective and doesn't care about what others think. When the CA attacked them, they act like victims, what a bunch of assholes! Now that the Hideauze exist (I hope this won't offend anyone here but they shouldn't exist in the first place), both the Hideauze and humans will be distrusted and paranoid of each other. This isn't your standard grey vs grey morality but rather grey vs yellow or blue. It's too much radical from any conflicts we ever have.

As for the Gargantia, you know that they can exist because they aren't many humans left on Earth anymore after the CA and the Evolvers left, right? A lot of human on Earth back them must also died from the climate change. They were mostly abandoned by both their space-faring ancestors and thus don't have to compete for resource against such monstrous group. There are high possibility that Gargantia will turn into hell on Earth if the GA and Hideauze came back...

taofd
2013-06-03, 17:33
human right violation

Is it a human rights violation if it's with full consent of the individual?

You guys are too quick to jump to conclusions.

abomination

Why are the hideaze abominations? Just because they look different? That is literally like saying dolphins are abominations because they chose to evolve into dolphins while we shared a common ancestor...

The real abomination is that both sides are perpetuating endless war. Welcome to the industrial military complex, now in Space™.

taofd
2013-06-03, 17:42
We don't know that. People in this thread seem to be making a lot of assumptions based on the minimal information we got. Ledo and the Alliance's information are completely unreliable, and most likely outright lies. We have literally no clue what the current situation is like on the Hideauze side. The only thing we know for sure is that the Alliance and them are stuck in an eternal war. Both sides are probably at fault.

And people wonder how atrocities have repeatedly occurred throughout history...

Nakorius
2013-06-03, 17:44
Is it a human rights violation if it's with full consent of the individual?

You guys are too quick to jump to conclusions.



Why are the hideaze abominations? Just because they look different? That is literally like saying dolphins are abominations because they chose to evolve into dolphins while we shared a common ancestor...

The real abomination is that both sides are perpetuating endless war. Welcome to the industrial military complex, now in Space™.

People who are sick and in pain want to die (euthanasia) but giving them such an option is illegal in most places.. even nowadays people cannot control their own lives..

our common ancestor could say we are abominations or the dolphins.. but he is gone, and the squids want to do the same, make their ancestor ( humans) go away into oblivion.

GreyZone
2013-06-03, 17:48
Sorry for being OT, but wow this must be a new record:

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 25 (11 members and 14 guests)

Or maybe I just never realized how many watch this.



I wonder if next Episode will be "the whalesquids strike back" or if nothing like that happens... and will Ledo accept the recordings he just saw as truth, or will he just agree with Chamber that this is "just a trick from the enemy"?

zeando
2013-06-03, 17:50
Sorry for being OT, but wow this must be a new record:

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 25 (11 members and 14 guests)

Or maybe I just never realized how many watch this.
well, the episode discussion is having a big time in many sites, and the lurkers may need something to repost :P

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 17:55
Is it a human rights violation if it's with full consent of the individual?

If. What if they didn't have the full consent of all the individuals or if they weren't fully informed of the consequences of those experiments? Can we be sure that the continental union made it all up and that there wasn't any violation?

Also, we have seen that they experimented on kids, and those aren't on an age where they can consent.

Also it's not so hard to bypass international laws on human rights if you think it's all right when they give their consent. You'd just need to pick people that live in extreme poverty and offer them a lot of money, then you can take their organs, and what not.
So no. Their consent doesn't matter.


Why are the hideaze abominations? Just because they look different? That is literally like saying dolphins are abominations because they chose to evolve into dolphins while we shared a common ancestor...

I'd go with my catgirl example again to prove that "look different" isn't the issue. Nobody would call a catgirl an abomination! (not true, but you get what I mean).

So why are Hideauze abominations? Because they are horrifying! Because they are repugnant!

What, you think that's a wrong reason to consider them abominations? It isn't (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abomination?s=t).

anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.


face it, those guys are a crossbreeds between humans and squids. That's just like Cthulhu or the Mindflayers, the latter are classified as "aberration".

Darth Fanta
2013-06-03, 18:02
They are a different species competing for space with humanity. Someone as to come out at the top eventually. Those things hate us and they will try to kill us whether we resist or not. As far as I am concerned, those who thinks that criticise the GA for killing the hideauze are being hypocritical. If you have no problem helping to defile this planet and thus killing millions of other 'inferior' organisms by using electricity and eat food produced in farms that were originally the habitats of other organisms, then you have no problem killing a different organism who is competing with you for survival. That's the truth people.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 18:06
They are a different species competing for space with humanity. Someone as to come out at the top eventually. If you have no problem helping to pollute planet and thus killing millions of other 'inferior' organisms by using electricity, there's no problem killing a different organism who is competing with you for survival.

Actually I have an issue with that. You can't treat sentient beings as you treat animals. At any rate there is a clear difference, the comparison doesn't work. You are invalidating any chance for alien species to peacefully coexist with that.

Hideauze are horrifying but they are still sentient beings... maybe...

Darth Fanta
2013-06-03, 18:19
Actually I have an issue with that. You can't treat sentient beings as you treat animals. At any rate there is a clear difference, the comparison doesn't work. You are invalidating any chance for alien species to peacefully coexist with that.

Hideauze are horrifying but they are still sentient beings... maybe...

Sentient beings who also wants to eliminate you. And what makes an organism sentient? Are you trying to say that dogs are not intelligent? Dolphins aren't intelligent? Chimps aren't intelligent? Do you think they can't feel pain ? Cows can't feel pain. Pigs don't get hurt when you kill them?Just because they are not as intelligent as us, this doesn't meant they aren't sentient. It's hypocritical to believe that you can treat other animals like sh@t but the GA shouldn't fight the hideauze for survival.

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-03, 19:15
It's astonishing how much of this debate seems to boil down to the physical appearance of one side as opposed to the other.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 19:17
Sentient beings who also wants to eliminate you. And what makes an organism sentient? Are you trying to say that dogs are not intelligent? Dolphins aren't intelligent? Chimps aren't intelligent? Do you think they can't feel pain ? Cows can't feel pain. Pigs don't get hurt when you kill them?Just because they are not as intelligent as us, this doesn't meant they aren't sentient. It's hypocritical to believe that you can treat other animals like sh@t but the GA shouldn't fight the hideauze for survival.

You are confusing sentience with intelligence and ability to feel pain.

In science fiction, an alien, android, robot, hologram, or computer described as sentient is usually treated as a fully human character, with similar rights, qualities, and capabilities as any other character. Foremost among these properties is human level intelligence (i.e. "sapience"), but sentient characters also typically display desire, will, consciousness, ethics, personality, insight, and many other human qualities. Sentience is being used in this context to describe an essential human property that brings all these other qualities with it. The words "sapience", "self-awareness", and "consciousness" are used in similar ways in science fiction.

So I refuse the notion that dogs an cats are sentient according to the above definition.

If there is an hypocrisy is to think that you have the right to refuse equal rights to a species without recognizing that they are inferior to you. If you don't, what kind of excuse do you have?

With your arguments you should rather claim that it's wrong to kill animals not that it's right to kill Hideauze.

Anyway the main practical difference between a sentient alien and a non sentient alien is that you can make peace with the former but not with the latter.
With animals and beasts you don't really have the choice to use diplomacy.

mikeomni
2013-06-03, 19:41
It's astonishing how much of this debate seems to boil down to the physical appearance of one side as opposed to the other.

True, it exposes some of our bias doesn't it? If the Hideauze were alien to start with it wouldn't be as abhorrent as former humans. Seeing something different but you know should be similar to you are probably triggers a self-deference mechanism. I know I shouldn't, but inwardly I still cringe when seeing pictures of misshapen humans. These are often victims of circumstance, blameless for their present state, and it takes an act of will to overcome that primal reaction. That will can be overthrown by the excuse of intentional breaking of convention. I guess that's why some cultures find things such as tattoos, body piercings and transsexualism so repulsive they are intolerant.

MeggieMay
2013-06-03, 19:46
Ok, I was under the impression that both the Hideouze and the GA have Wormhole technology. As well, I thought what the episode stated was that the Evolvers are the ones who created the wormhole technology and had intended to blow it up after they escaped to conquer the universe (that latter part is in the picture that was posted several pages back) and to make sure the remaining humans died during the ice age. However, the future GA discovered what was going on and either stopped the explosion, or at least gained the technology, and used the wormhole themselves, making it their mission to go out and stop the Evolvers. If that is correct, then really both sides are guilty. The Evolvers could have just left, while the GA could have just not followed them and both groups should have check up with the homeworld (though the Evolvers made it a point that they wanted them dead so that's not a surprise).

That said, someone stated earlier you could see the wormhole blown up. Which might fit into the idea that the GA copied the technology and built their own gate to go after them. If so, that gate might still be up there and that might actually make sense. I've been curious all along just how Ledo managed to end up on Earth in the first place and one crack theory I thought about is that there is something built into the original technology that will send people back to the Earth if they get into the type of trouble that Ledo did. Just a random thought, though.

Darth Fanta
2013-06-03, 20:03
You are confusing sentience with intelligence and ability to feel pain.



So I refuse the notion that dogs an cats are sentient according to the above definition.

If there is an hypocrisy is to think that you have the right to refuse equal rights to a species without recognizing that they are inferior to you. If you don't, what kind of excuse do you have?

With your arguments you should rather claim that it's wrong to kill animals not that it's right to kill Hideauze.

Anyway the main practical difference between a sentient alien and a non sentient alien is that you can make peace with the former but not with the latter.
With animals and beasts you don't really have the choice to use diplomacy.
Dead wrong lol! That's a definition used in FICTION. Read the correct definition used in real life here: http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/pets/care-and-welfare/how-do-animals-think/what-is-sentience .

Besides that, how is it a hypocrisy to not give any rights to a species without recognizing they are inferior to you?

Other than that,something is sentient as long as they have "human level intelligence"? Aliens with superior intelligence could have easily killed humans by arguing the same definition but with the word human exchanged for whatever species they are from. That's just propaganda to justify why WE have the right to oppress other species lol, just like those racist propagandas in the Victorian Era trying to justify why colonialism and opressing 'inferior' races is correct.

So from the official definition, you can see it's evident that killing normal animals is no different from killing a hideauze. It doesn't matter whether another organism is sentient or not,there's no right or wrong. You just have to do what benefits you most to survive, in this case fighting. It's not just the normal humans who wants to fight, but the hideauze as well. They were quite willing to believe that they alone have the right to live and "prosper in space" when they tried to seize the wormhole built by normal humans and most probably if they actually succeeded strand the normal humans on earth.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-03, 20:36
Ok, I was under the impression that both the Hideouze and the GA have Wormhole technology. As well, I thought what the episode stated was that the Evolvers are the ones who created the wormhole technology and had intended to blow it up after they escaped to conquer the universe (that latter part is in the picture that was posted several pages back) and to make sure the remaining humans died during the ice age. However, the future GA discovered what was going on and either stopped the explosion, or at least gained the technology, and used the wormhole themselves, making it their mission to go out and stop the Evolvers. If that is correct, then really both sides are guilty. The Evolvers could have just left, while the GA could have just not followed them and both groups should have check up with the homeworld (though the Evolvers made it a point that they wanted them dead so that's not a surprise).

That said, someone stated earlier you could see the wormhole blown up. Which might fit into the idea that the GA copied the technology and built their own gate to go after them. If so, that gate might still be up there and that might actually make sense. I've been curious all along just how Ledo managed to end up on Earth in the first place and one crack theory I thought about is that there is something built into the original technology that will send people back to the Earth if they get into the type of trouble that Ledo did. Just a random thought, though.

Just to clarify who built what, what got blown up, and so on...

http://i.imgur.com/86kENZBl.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/86kENZB.jpg)

As has been noted before, the part that I boxed in the third panel notes that the video appears to be a simulation created for dramatic purposes by whoever made the recording. We don't know if the wormhole gate was used and then exploded or if some other event occurred, we just know that both sides ended up at least 6500 light years away.

Cloudedmind
2013-06-03, 20:44
Ok, I was under the impression that both the Hideouze and the GA have Wormhole technology. As well, I thought what the episode stated was that the Evolvers are the ones who created the wormhole technology and had intended to blow it up after they escaped to conquer the universe (that latter part is in the picture that was posted several pages back) and to make sure the remaining humans died during the ice age. However, the future GA discovered what was going on and either stopped the explosion, or at least gained the technology, and used the wormhole themselves, making it their mission to go out and stop the Evolvers. If that is correct, then really both sides are guilty. The Evolvers could have just left, while the GA could have just not followed them and both groups should have check up with the homeworld (though the Evolvers made it a point that they wanted them dead so that's not a surprise).

That said, someone stated earlier you could see the wormhole blown up. Which might fit into the idea that the GA copied the technology and built their own gate to go after them. If so, that gate might still be up there and that might actually make sense. I've been curious all along just how Ledo managed to end up on Earth in the first place and one crack theory I thought about is that there is something built into the original technology that will send people back to the Earth if they get into the type of trouble that Ledo did. Just a random thought, though.

Unfortunately, you've got it backwards. The Continental Union, later known as the Galactic Alliance, created a worm hole device that would allow them to travel through space and leave the earth and the Evolvers behind. The Evolvers got wind of this and vowed to stop/take over the wormhole device. Presumably another conflict broke out and they both ended up in space, to fight each other for the next thousand of years.

Triple_R
2013-06-03, 20:58
What people usually mean by sentience is actually sapience (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Sapience).

Personally, I think its an important and reasonable dividing line when it comes to how humans should treat other species.

All animals, of course, have a certain degree of intelligence. Most (all?) can feel pain. So there is an argument to be made against cruelty towards animals in general.

But while many would likely object morally to the enslavement of a sapient species, relatively few would object to the enslavement of a non-sapient species. This is partly why zoos exist.

MeggieMay
2013-06-03, 21:00
Just to clarify who built what, what got blown up, and so on...

http://i.imgur.com/86kENZBl.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/86kENZB.jpg)

As has been noted before, the part that I boxed in the third panel notes that the video appears to be a simulation created for dramatic purposes by whoever made the recording. We don't know if the wormhole gate was used and then exploded or if some other event occurred, we just know that both sides ended up at least 6500 light years away.

Ok, that's interesting. BTW, is that the CR version or another group? I feel it's worth asking because translations can vary, even between official U.S. streams of a show. [Edit] I just went back and looked and it's CR. Also, your right that it's a dramatization of what they think is going to happen, not what did happen

From the looks of those screen shots we're seeing something along the lines of Evolver News Network and their take on what is going on. Basically, it doesn't say the GA was going to use the self-destruct but that the Evolvers thought that was the plan and proceeded accordingly (and it's possible that there was never a self destruct to begin with and it was just propaganda to support their taking over the wormhole). I still feel both sides are no less guilty of causing the problems. It was a complicated issue and thing escalated quickly and were not helped out by the oncoming ice age. I do think the show did a decent job with trying to show the issue of having two (or more) sides that may or may not have been right or wrong on a issue (I have a feeling there was yet at least one more side where people didn't want anything to do with either option and just hunkered down and rode it out and that's probably where most of the current human population is coming from). Now I'll be interested to see how they handle the fallout from Ledo finding everything out.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-03, 21:35
...will Ledo accept the recordings he just saw as truth, or will he just agree with Chamber that this is "just a trick from the enemy"?He is likely to accept the recordings, since he himself saw a whalesquid with a human face looking in at him.

...They are a different species competing for space with humanity. Someone has to come out at the top eventually. Those things hate us and they will try to kill us whether we resist or not....We do not know that they are "competing for space with humanity." All we know is that the GA humans are trying to attack and kill them. We have not yet seen the Hideauze do anything but defend themselves. There is plenty of space in, uh, space. There is no obvious reason the two groups can't spread out in different directions. "Those things hate us and they will try to kill us whether we resist or not" has no basis in the anime.

The psychologist Carl Jung had a concept called The Shadow. This is the part of our unconscious mind that holds negative impulses. We can either accept that we have those impulses, see and control them. Or we can deny that we have those impulses, and they will sneak up and control our actions unconsciously, particularly by being projected onto others, where we imagine we see the bad things that are actually in our own minds. To quote myself: "We see in others what we have in ourselves."

Depressingly, a number of posts here reproduce perfectly the attitude toward China that much of our media is promoting today: "China is a big and advancing country. They are therefore our competitors. If we don't stop them, they will get us." In the China-US case, I don't understand why both countries can't advance together. The world's economy doesn't seem like a zero-sum game to me.
------

As for the news shows, I think we are getting news from both sides, though since these are records in an Evolver site, most should come from them. We certainly get to see the harsh-faced newsman reporting things from what appears to be a Union viewpoint about the Evolvers experimentation.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 22:13
Dead wrong lol! That's a definition used in FICTION.

Ah sorry I didn't know Suisei of Gargantia wasn't fiction... oh wait a sec...

Read the correct definition used in real life here: http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/pets/care-and-welfare/how-do-animals-think/what-is-sentience .

That's not a "correct" definition that's just another definition that uses the same word. Pretty much the same way that "arm" can refer to a limb or to a weapon. Neither is correct or wrong.

However in the context of a sci-fi story "sentience" always refers to the characteristic of a creature to posses self-awareness, consciousness and generally enough intelligence to communicate, create a civilization and so on.
This is a term that was created following a necessity to find a something that would define all those beings who possess that kind of human-like intellect without being exclusive for human only. Necessity that obviously doesn't exist in the real world.


Besides that, how is it a hypocrisy to not give any rights to a species without recognizing they are inferior to you?

Because the universal rights are based on the concept of morality and morality doesn't apply to humans only. There are in fact several laws that ban cruelty against animals for example.
So why one should remember about morality just for fellow humans and not for animals?
The truth is that animals are not recognized to be equal as humans in any law system, no matter what you say, this is a fact. But that doesn't mean at all that rights specific for animals do not exist, they do.


That's just propaganda to justify why WE have the right to oppress other species lol, just like those racist propagandas in the Victorian Era trying to justify why colonialism and opressing 'inferior' races is correct.

You don't make any sense. You are the one who thinks it's all right to exterminate Hideauze not me. Why are you talking about oppressing inferior species as if it was something evil when you think it's all right to do that with anything that isn't human?
You may be berating me with that, but you are berating yourself as well. Are you fine with implying that you are an oppressive bastard yourself?


You just have to do what benefits you most to survive, in this case fighting.

Why not peace? That seems a better strategy, if your objective is to survive.
There is absolutely nothing that suggests that the Hideauze want to completely exterminate humans.

This isn't really a war of survival this is a war for supremacy.

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-03, 22:25
We do not know that they are "competing for space with humanity." All we know is that the GA humans are trying to attack and kill them. We have not yet seen the Hideauze do anything but defend themselves. There is plenty of space in, uh, space. There is no obvious reason the two groups can't spread out in different directions. "Those things hate us and they will try to kill us whether we resist or not" has no basis in the anime.

But the G.A. are so much... so much better looking!

Irenesharda
2013-06-03, 22:33
It's astonishing how much of this debate seems to boil down to the physical appearance of one side as opposed to the other.

I don't know if it's just the physical appearance for me. I'm more adverse to the fact that they gave up their humanity ( a much more complex subject) to become these supposed "advanced" beings. And one can go on about all the bad things humans do all they want, but in the end, I would still never give it up to become not only a cephlopod, but one that has become a being that only exists on animal instinct.

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-03, 22:40
And we have no way of knowing whether they only exist on animal instinct. It's just being assumed based on how they look.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 22:52
But the G.A. are so much... so much better looking!

Be honest, suppose you had to choose whether to join the Hideauze or the GA, where would you go?

You'd have to fight either way, but on one side you'd end up looking like a giant squid, on the other side you'd have a harsh military life but you get "communal showers" and after a few years of service the right to "reproduce" with whoever you want among a long generation of women or men finely selected through years of eugenetic.

It isn't just Ledo who is "hot" as Melty never fails to remind us.

I don't even know if the Hideauze have the same right to "reproduce", but I'm not even sure you'd want to "hit" that.

Hey, remember, I'm not saying that the Hideauze must be exterminated, I'm for peace. But who is following the right idea of human progress? Because certainly growing some pairs of eyes in my tights doesn't quite fit with my ideal.

hawkeyesvn
2013-06-03, 22:59
Nazi society filled with beautiful people or giant space squid colony full of tentacles ? Make your choice!!!

Darth Fanta
2013-06-03, 23:09
Ah sorry I didn't know Suisei of Gargantia wasn't fiction... oh wait a sec...

We have all been trying to analyses the motives of different sides based upon mindsets from real life. [/QUOTE]


That's not a "correct" definition that's just another definition that uses the same word. Pretty much the same way that "arm" can refer to a limb or to a weapon. Neither is correct or wrong. I'm sorry, but that is the definition from dictionaries.

However in the context of a sci-fi story "sentience" always refers to the characteristic of a creature to posses self-awareness, consciousness and generally enough intelligence to communicate, create a civilization and so on.
It is not known whether they could communicate at all.


Because the universal rights are based on the concept of morality and morality doesn't apply to humans only. There are in fact several laws that ban cruelty against animals for example. That's just a idealist belief humans from wealthy nations can believe in. In poorer nations, where earning a penny is hard enough, people just couldn't give a damn about animal rights. People would gladly hunt an elephant in the most savage way so that they could earn a penny and feed their family. Rule of thumb is that animal rights should be respected, but only when you can afford it.


So why one should remember about morality just for fellow humans and not for animals?
The truth is that animals are not recognized to be equal as humans in any law system, no matter what you say, this is a fact. But that doesn't mean at all that rights specific for animals do not exist, they do. That's exactly what I was talking about the whole time.




You don't make any sense. You are the one who thinks it's all right to exterminate Hideauze not me. Why are you talking about oppressing inferior species as if it was something evil when you think it's all right to do that with anything that isn't human?. I think it's a necessary evil for our race. That's what I've been saying the whole time. It's essential to our continued dominance and prosperity. Between letting an animal's home get destroyed so farms could be built and therefore saving YOU from starvation, I'd rather save YOU than the animal.

You may be berating me with that, but you are berating yourself as well. Are you fine with implying that you are an oppressive bastard yourself?Duh. Just how long did it take you to figure out that I'm perfectly glad with the notion that I'm a member a species who dominates and oppresses other species?


Why not peace? That seems a better strategy, if your objective is to survive.
There is absolutely nothing that suggests that the Hideauze want to completely exterminate humans.

This isn't really a war of survival this is a war for supremacy.Peace would be a better option, but that's only IF it's possible. From episode one, tt's fairly clear that humans were losing the war. They were on their last legs when they launched the operation in episode one. The commander explicitly stated that they should "consider the war lost" if they failed that mission--which they did.They'd be the ones who wanted peace more than the hideauze--they'd jump at that chance if it was an option. Chances are that there's either no way to communicate with the Hideauze (they've 'evolved' too far apart to communicate)or the Hideauze refuses to give up fighting the humans. That means that continued fighting is really the sole option.

jeroz
2013-06-03, 23:17
so when did the Hideazue start swimming backwards?

wouldn't it be better if the evolved turned out like this though?
http://i.imgur.com/WKRwI8D.jpg
or even Ika musume

Leo_Otaku
2013-06-03, 23:28
I sort of guessed as much after going like....where is this going and then...
hmmm another show that finished a few months ago based on a novel similar ideas...
I wasn't as shocked as most people but I was still a bit surprised at how it all happened.

monir
2013-06-03, 23:31
so when did the Hideazue start swimming backwards?

It's probably when the Evolver noticed they are compatible with the existing native squid in the ocean, and one of em' wondered out loud, "Those are some fine tentacles you got there! You work out? *wink wink*"

Evolution is designed and out of necessity! Information that is not needed any longer (in this case, the brain and the processing power of a Evolver) is discarded.

rocket
2013-06-03, 23:33
Wow.

Mind.

Blown.



...


Somehow I'd neglected this series because the girls looked to shiny and happy, and then by luck ended up starting to marathon it last week.

Very very happy I did.

Then somehow, I had missed all along that this was an Urubouchi Gen show... until this episode. Well, that explains it. I should really just make a point of watching everything he does...

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 23:34
That's just a idealist belief humans from wealthy nations can believe in. In poorer nations, where earning a penny is hard enough, people just couldn't give a damn about animal rights.

False. That totally depends on culture, not wealth. Jainism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism) is certainly not associated with the latter.
And questions about the morality of eating animals existed since Hellenistic times.


I think it's a necessary evil for our race. That's what I've been saying the entire time.
Duh. Just how long did it take you to figure out that I'm perfectly glad with the notion that I'm a member a species who dominates and oppresses other species?

So you agree that killing Hideauze is evil?
Now what remains is whether it is really necessary or not.


Peace would be a better option, but that's only if it's possible. From episode one, tt's fairly clear that humans were losing the war. They were on their last legs when they launched the operation in episode one. The commander explicitly stated that they should consider the "war lost" if they failed that mission--which they did.They'd be the ones who wanted peace more than the hideauze--they'd jump at that chance if it was an option. Chances are that there's either no way to communicate with the Hideauze (they've 'evolved' too far apart to communicate)or the Hideauze refuses to give up fighting the humans. That means that continued fighting is really the sole option.

That's a lot of hasty conclusions. First you need to consider that Kugel is a grunt and he doesn't know what the government does.
We have evidence that the government actively censors information about the the origin of the Hideauze. They wouldn't do that if they had nothing to cover about them.

Now the situation is that the GA decided to launch an all out attack against the Hideauze. The government knows that they aren't just mindless bugs, the soldiers don't, however they believe they will win this battle.

Then they launch the attack and it fails. What would you do if you were in the shoes of the heads of the GA now? You now know that you can't win, but you only learned it about 1 minute ago. What can you do apart ordering a retreat and hoping the Hideauze will eventually accept peace conditions?

The retreat order? We saw that, and it wouldn't make much sense if there really was no future. I mean you can retreat to fight another day, but why retreating if there is no tomorrow?

As for the possible peace discussions, we never had the chance to see whether they happened or not. So how can you be so sure that they never happened?
I mean perhaps they didn't, but you are using a mere speculation as an argument.

Besides it's hinted that the Hideauze don't even know where the humans are. So for the GA there is a whole option of simply leave the Hideauze alone and perhaps travel to some remote place of the universe. Now they have the technology to do that with ease.

rocket
2013-06-03, 23:47
Perhaps I'm biased, because hey, I'd 'go squid' ... you know tentacles have always been a thing and um... you get to fly in space too so it's like a double bonus...

...ahem...

What I'm wondering is where do all the 'squids have lost their humanity' assumptions come from?

All we've seen is that they've transformed their bodies. There's literally no data about their minds or culture.

taofd
2013-06-03, 23:50
I don't know if it's just the physical appearance for me. I'm more adverse to the fact that they gave up their humanity ( a much more complex subject) to become these supposed "advanced" beings. And one can go on about all the bad things humans do all they want, but in the end, I would still never give it up to become not only a cephlopod, but one that has become a being that only exists on animal instinct.

What defines "being human"? I would still consider the Hideaze human, unless their value system has changed entirely (not enough information at this point). For example, if I transplanted you as an entity (preserving your thoughts, feelings, value system, mind, etc) into the shape of a dog, would you still consider yourself human and expect the same rights as an individual? What about a cow, or an ant, etc?

People in this thread seem awfully stuck up on the physical appearance of the Hideaze. I'd point out all their logical fallacies, but there's no winning on the internet and not worth the effort. Quite honestly, it's frightening how shallow and intolerant some of the individuals in this thread are...

Their consent doesn't matter.

... Actually, their consent DOES matter. If they choose to sell their organs, what gives you the right to stop them? As long as no coercive force is being used, are you going to tell them that they cannot do what they want with their own body? With children the complexity of the decision increases due to their inability to understand the full consequences of their actions (that's what parents are for), but the fundamentals remain the same.

Cloudedmind
2013-06-03, 23:51
so when did the Hideazue start swimming backwards?

wouldn't it be better if the evolved turned out like this though?
http://i.imgur.com/WKRwI8D.jpg
or even Ika musume


I'd hit that. I always did have a soft spot for Ursala in the Little Mermaid. xD


But on a serious note, between the Hideauze and the GA, I'd choose neither. I actually think the Hideauze are quite pretty but in a I like to look at them, but not be them way. And we don't know much else about how live. Everything at this point is pretty much conjecture. And although the GA has tech it doesn't appear to be a fun place to spend time based on what we've heard from Ledo and Chamber. Sure there's the possibility of Avalon, but 16 years of service and trying not to get turned into Hideaze food, yeah...no thanks. I'd choose the Gargantia, it's not perfect but at least I'd get to live my life more or less of my own choosing not stuck in some perpetual war.

rocket
2013-06-04, 00:01
I gotta say tho' all you squid haters have been trolled SO hard.

Ever since the very first episode.

We know we should hate the enemy right? Why?

Because they're Hideyouze.

So what? What's that mean?

Sorry, didn't you hear me? We must hate them because they're hideous.

...


It's pretty darn clear than Gen wants you to think about the nature of Humanity. Is it based of what we look like or how we act?

First Ledo has a hard time recognizing the Pirates as human, because they're willing to threaten other humans.

We then realize how in-human the GA is - child soldiers who have no families and brutal eugenics regimes. Avalon exists for breeding, but there's no love, no companionship, only a brief respite in war.

Now we meet the squids, who look like something out of a nightmares, but only fight when threatened. If they'd been aliens who were only responding to human aggression, then everyone would be using Close Encounters ethics. But because they're actually just ugly humans...

[shakes head sadly]

Darth Fanta
2013-06-04, 00:04
False. That totally depends on culture, not wealth. Jainism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism) is certainly not associated with the latter.
And questions about the morality of eating animals existed since Hellenistic times.

People even resolve into cannibalism if they starve,which is a common taboo in almost all societies. It all depends on the situation, and livelihood plays a large role.


So you agree that killing Hideauze is evil?
Now what remains is whether it is really necessary or not. Killing Hideauze is a necessary evil, just as killing enemy soldiers in most wars was.




That's a lot of hasty conclusions. First you need to consider that Kugel is a grunt and he doesn't know what the government does.
We have evidence that the government actively censors information about the the origin of the Hideauze. They wouldn't do that if they had nothing to cover about them.

Now the situation is that the GA decided to launch an all out attack against the Hideauze. The government knows that they aren't just mindless bugs, the soldiers don't, however they believe they will win this battle.

Then they launch the attack and it fails. What would you do if you were in the shoes of the heads of the GA now? You now know that you can't win, but you only learned it about 1 minute ago. What can you do apart ordering a retreat and hoping the Hideauze will eventually accept peace conditions?

The retreat order? We saw that, and it wouldn't make much sense if there really was no future. I mean you can retreat to fight another day, but why retreating if there is no tomorrow?

As for the possible peace discussions, we never had the chance to see whether they happened or not. So how can you be so sure that they never happened?
I mean perhaps they didn't, but you are using a mere speculation as an argument.

Besides it's hinted that the Hideauze don't even know where the humans are. So for the GA there is a whole option of simply leave the Hideauze alone and perhaps travel to some remote place of the universe. Now they have the technology to do that with ease. The Hideauze also has the option of travelling to some more remote place in the universe.

You may also think that the GA are the aggressors since they launched an all out attack, but that's also just a speculation.

While what the commander said may just be government propaganda, it's quite clear that the war's desperate enough that they have to maximize efficiency in GA by euthanizing the 'inefficient', possibly clone soldiers, and basically convert their society into a communist one by disestablishing the principle of private ownership. What ever was the case, this isn't something a 'winning' entity would do.

"Losing the war" most probably means they would lose a large part of the population in the aftermath since the Hideauze would most likely be able to attack the civilian/support structure of the GA unimpeded since so many of their troops were dead.This could lead to the potential collapse of GA and a major loss of human lives, but doesn't necessarily mean humans would become extinct immediately. It's pointless to waste lives in a futile struggle once the battle has been lost. The more soldiers managed to get out alive, the better they are able to prevent a complete collapse and extinction.

Vocah
2013-06-04, 00:18
The Hideauze also has the option of travelling to some more remote place in the universe.

You may also think that the GA are the aggressors since they launched an all out attack, but that's also just a speculation.

Well, maybe the Hideauze are in some "more remote place in the universe", afterall it is the GA that uses it's Wormhole technology to get to the Hideauzes territory

Jan-Poo
2013-06-04, 00:21
... Actually, their consent DOES matter. If they choose to sell their organs, what gives you the right to stop them? As long as no coercive force is being used, are you going to tell them that they cannot do what they want with their own body?

Yeah, in what kind of planet you live in?
Of course it's very hard to prevent someone from doing something to himself, but if that requires assistance, then, hell, this world is full of laws that put restrictions.

See for example euthanasia. You are not free to get killed, no matter if you give your consent.
Or simply think about drugs. You are not free to buy whatever drug you want.
You want to sell your organs? Most countries forbid that.
You want to cut your hand? You'll have to do it by yourself, no medic will be ever authorized to do so (unless it is necessary to save your life).

So, you want to become a squid? It's the same as above. Whether you give consent or not the ones who do that to you will be considered criminals.



While what the commander said may just be government propaganda, it's quite clear that the war's desperate enough that they have to maximize efficiency in GA by euthanizing the 'inefficient', possibly clone soldiers, and basically convert their society into a communist one by disestablishing the principle of private ownership. What ever was the case, this isn't something a 'winning' entity would do.

That's because you assume from start that the GA are just poor people that have no choice to do that. The Nazi started killing their own disabled people when they were still sure of their victory.


"Losing the war" most probably means they would lose a large part of the population in the aftermath since the Hideauze would most likely be able to attack the civilian/support structure of the GA unimpeded since so many of their troops were dead.This could lead to the potential collapse of GA and a major loss of human lives, but doesn't necessarily mean humans would become extinct immediately. It's pointless to waste lives in a futile struggle once the battle has been lost. The more soldiers managed to get out alive, the better they are able to prevent a complete collapse and extinction.

Again I don't know how you can conclude that. Kugel sacrificed himself to prevent the Hideauze from following them. This would hint that they normally can't go where the humans are or that it would take a lot of time.

In the end you are just speculating that peace is impossible, you have absolutely nothing that proves it, not even a rational argument.
For all we know the Hideauze might be simply defending themselves and retaliating.

I mean it could go both ways you know. You seem to only think about the possibility that the aggressors are the Hideauze, but the opposite could be true. Of course do you even think that anyone would disagree with you if it was certain that the Hideauze want to exterminate the humans and that the GA are simply defending?

The real question here is whether the Hideauze should be given the right to exist, supposing they are willing to co-exist, or if they should be exterminated simply because they are an abomination or because it would be more advantageous for humans to have no competition.

Nobody is questioning that the Hideauze should be fought back if they attack.

Vocah
2013-06-04, 00:34
Yeah, in what kind of planet you live in?
Of course it's very hard to prevent someone from doing something to himself, but if that requires assistance, then, hell, this world is full of laws that put restrictions.

See for example euthanasia. You are not free to get killed, no matter if you give your consent.
Or simply think about drugs. You are not free to buy whatever drug you want.
You want to sell your organs? Most countries forbid that.
You want to cut your hand? You'll have to do it by yourself, no medic will be ever authorized to do so (unless it is necessary to save your life).

So, you want to become a squid? It's the same as above. Whether you give consent or not the ones who do that to you will be considered criminals.

Laws can change, just saying.
In case of your examples, I find it pretty stupid in the case of euthanasia. If someone wants to die, wouldn't it be way better to go to a hospital and be done with than jumping from a bridge or something like that and maybe impairing(is this the right word for it?) on others?
The organ-part I view similar to the euthanasia one.
The drug thingy would also be better in a "controlled" environment rather than from some dealer at the corner

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-04, 00:43
Well, maybe the Hideauze are in some "more remote place in the universe", afterall it is the GA that uses it's Wormhole technology to get to the Hideauzes territory

They can't just leave each other alone.

The Hideauze need the Galactic Alliance and possibly Drifters for FTL as their technology allows wormholes. The Hideuauze are Luddites for abandoning technology and not being to create it themselves.

The Galactic Alliance's main purpose now is the elimination of Hideauze as they keep expanding where they are expanding.

Note in episode 1 it was priority the wormhole is closed behind them.

Vocah
2013-06-04, 00:58
The Hideauze don't need wormholes, that's why they did become Evolver. Sure it was convient for them in the footage shown, but that's all.

Just think about it. If the Hideauze can't use FTL all the GA have to do to avoid them is making a big jump and destroying the wormhole afterwards (just like it was planned in the past) to get rid of any chance of meeting them for a few thousand years.
So either the Hideauze have a form of FTL or the GA themselves keep in contact with them

Jan-Poo
2013-06-04, 00:59
Laws can change, just saying.
In case of your examples, I find it pretty stupid in the case of euthanasia. If someone wants to die, wouldn't it be way better to go to a hospital and be done with than jumping from a bridge or something like that and maybe impairing(is this the right word for it?) on others?
The organ-part I view similar to the euthanasia one.
The drug thingy would also be better in a "controlled" environment rather than from some dealer at the corner

You can find a lot of laws stupid, but you are still supposed to respect them. You can protest and ask them to be changed, but if they don't. Well you can either adapt or be prepared for retaliation.

The Evolvers simply decided that the laws were "outdated", and they ignored them without reaching an agreement to change them.




Note in episode 1 it was priority the wormhole is closed behind them.

If it was true that the Hideauze

1) don't have wormholes
2) need wormholes

then the best way to deal with them would be to simply jump some thousand light years away from them.
According to you, they'd have no way to follow.

chaos_animagic
2013-06-04, 01:05
watching the female humansquid...

she looked so nice too... too bad Chamber is a machine programed by the "government" to destroy any opposing regardless of human pilot.

I feel sad now.

I had wanted that Female Humansquid to survive and find a way to communicate (since Chamber can learn original human language, it should be able to learn other species languages)

So... I wonder what Ledo's going to do now.

He's probably gonna go crazy knowing he just killed off 2000+ "previously humans" and 1 that actually looks like a human.


Especially after the fact that he was told by Amy not to kill any other humans. (if they still count as humans, as discussed in this thread)

monir
2013-06-04, 01:07
They can't just leave each other alone.

The Hideauze need the Galactic Alliance and possibly Drifters for FTL as their technology allows wormholes. The Hideuauze are Luddites for abandoning technology and not being to create it themselves.

The Galactic Alliance's main purpose now is the elimination of Hideauze as they keep expanding where they are expanding.

Note in episode 1 it was priority the wormhole is closed behind them.

To me it's not yet clear if the Hideause are any way inferior to the GA. For example we still don't know how Ledo and Chamber came to be in earth. It's just too much of a coincidence that Ledo came to discover the lost planet. Like one poster pointed out, this is just another enactment of human nature (via mutual destruction) at it's worst.

whitecloud
2013-06-04, 01:17
I think the reason GA can't leave hideauze alone because they are pretty much like Zerg...leave them alone for a while they will breed, fast enough and adapt to environment easily enough to become a threat later. Do you see the brood mother of the erarth hideauze, just one of them has at least 100 egg, imagine more of of them, how fast will they occupy the solar system, how fast will they expand outside it

Key Board
2013-06-04, 02:16
are we sure the Hideauze don't have warpgates?

they managed to produce a space station after all

if we are referring to episode 1, I think the issue is that space is very vast and the Hideauze can't just guess where the human fleet is.

but going through the warpgate would allow them to pinpoint the location and quickly send reinforcements

frodonk
2013-06-04, 02:19
woah, I didn't expect that at all.

anyway, that last hideous chamber killed resembled one of the original inhabitants of old earth as shown in the video, the one that high fived one of the divers. looks like chamber just killed something or someone very old.

scr
2013-06-04, 02:36
Once, I said I'm with the kill-Hideauze camp because they are just animals.

Guess what? I changed my mind.

I'm now with the kill-Hideauze camp because they are xenos bastards who will corrupt humanity if nothing is done. Anyone who want to defend the Hideauze can go become squids.

Triple_R
2013-06-04, 02:44
And we have no way of knowing whether they only exist on animal instinct. It's just being assumed based on how they look.

We have no way of knowing if the "space Hideauze" only exist on animal instinct. Its certainly possible that they're sentient and sapient and maintain some degree of human-level (or even above) intelligence.

But what we've seen of the "Earth Hideauze" is pretty suggestive, in my view. They've made a nest out of an ancient ruin of human civilization. They don't appear to have built anything on their own. Their behavior is very much like a communal pack of animals that lack higher understanding. I think that they're probably harmless if you leave them and their territory alone, but I also don't get a human-level intelligence vibe from them. They make me think of hornets, and bears, and actual squids, and so on.

monir
2013-06-04, 02:46
Anyone who want to defend the Hideauze can go become squids.

And anyone who is picking side has already fallen victim to a trolling Urobuchi who is calling (terrible) humanity out at every opportunity he gets. :p

scr
2013-06-04, 02:49
And anyone who is picking side has already fallen victim to a trolling Urobuchi who is calling (terrible) humanity out at every opportunity he gets. :p

In this context, I'll take being called out by Urobuchi as a compliment.

Triple_R
2013-06-04, 02:59
It's perfectly fine to disagree with the Evolvers, but we shouldn't lose sight of the GA's flaws that we knew of long before this episode.


The GA has outlawed families, for crying out loud. They've stripped the word "co-existence" from the dictionary. The physically weak are simply disposed of. The soldier class (and possibly all humans) need to earn such basic rights as the right to eat, sleep, and procreate as they wish. That is a massive curtailing on human rights. We knew all of this before this episode even aired.

Imperialist fascists don't become good guys just because they happen to be warring with Lovecraftian horrors (if that's how you choose to view the Hideauze). They're still imperialist fascists, and should be recognized as such.

rpgkiller999
2013-06-04, 04:03
Damn it now I want this anime to be 26 epi!!

taofd
2013-06-04, 04:11
They've made a nest out of an ancient ruin of human civilization. They don't appear to have built anything on their own. Their behavior is very much like a communal pack of animals that lack higher understanding.


Arguably, couldn't we say the same for the Gargantia fleet? :)

Your last criteria, is arguable-- whether or not they display intelligence will be seen in coming episodes.

taofd
2013-06-04, 04:18
You can find a lot of laws stupid, but you are still supposed to respect them. You can protest and ask them to be changed, but if they don't. Well you can either adapt or be prepared for retaliation.



Sounds like you'd be right at home with the GA.

Governments are held accountable to the people. It's the duty of the individual to challenge laws which are arbitrary, unjust, and/or are unrepresentative of the population. "Prepare for retaliation?" Sounds like you don't have a good grasp of civil liberties or that of history my friend.

As Ledo is quickly finding out, he's been living in a bubble and spoon fed propaganda his entire life. If your entire concept of morality and right and wrong is based on what authoritative figures have arbitrarily decided for you, then I truly pity you.

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-04, 05:23
We have no way of knowing if the "space Hideauze" only exist on animal instinct. Its certainly possible that they're sentient and sapient and maintain some degree of human-level (or even above) intelligence.

But what we've seen of the "Earth Hideauze" is pretty suggestive, in my view. They've made a nest out of an ancient ruin of human civilization. They don't appear to have built anything on their own. Their behavior is very much like a communal pack of animals that lack higher understanding. I think that they're probably harmless if you leave them and their territory alone, but I also don't get a human-level intelligence vibe from them. They make me think of hornets, and bears, and actual squids, and so on.

An ancient ruin of human civilization - a ruin they built (not just humans, but Evolvers). How is that any different than the Gargantians, who appear to be using technology that would be old by our standards? I think this is strictly habitat chauvinism - the biped society looks like ours and the whalequid doesn't, so they must be mindless beasts.

I wholeheartedly ascribe to the notion that Urobuchi is condemning both Evolvers and the C.U. equally - it's the way he works. But the only thing we really can say for sure that separates the Hideauze and the G.A. - and their Terran descendants - is that we've seen the G.A./humans attack unprovoked, and we know they pre-emptively murder their own young.

-Sho-
2013-06-04, 06:11
Chamber is so overcheat , wonder if Evolvers are so cheat like him. Ledo should have told him about the classified restriction earlier...
Anyway , this episode show once again how Humans are so stubborn & are their own enemies...


And fuck u Chamber for Elaine T_T

Jan-Poo
2013-06-04, 07:07
Arguably, couldn't we say the same for the Gargantia fleet? :)

An ancient ruin of human civilization - a ruin they built (not just humans, but Evolvers). How is that any different than the Gargantians, who appear to be using technology that would be old by our standards? I think this is strictly habitat chauvinism - the biped society looks like ours and the whalequid doesn't, so they must be mindless beasts.


Not really, you can clearly notice that the Gargantians have heavily modified and changed salvaged technology to their needs. The comparison really doesn't stand.

The Gargantians would have never left the carcass of a whalesquid untouched near they nursery for years.


Sounds like you'd be right at home with the GA.

Governments are held accountable to the people. It's the duty of the individual to challenge laws which are arbitrary, unjust, and/or are unrepresentative of the population. "Prepare for retaliation?" Sounds like you don't have a good grasp of civil liberties or that of history my friend.

As Ledo is quickly finding out, he's been living in a bubble and spoon fed propaganda his entire life. If your entire concept of morality and right and wrong is based on what authoritative figures have arbitrarily decided for you, then I truly pity you.

You clearly haven't read what I wrote or you don't know how civil movements work.

I said that you have the right to protest and to advocate the necessity to change the law. That's how you should do it, if you want to keep it peaceful.

Simply ignoring the law doesn't change a damn thing and it can only lead to conflict.

"Prepare for retaliation" doesn't mean "submit". If you go directly against the law, you'd better be prepared to fight. And to expect that any government will not act against repeated infractions, you'd need to live in a dream.

And honestly can you really respect a government that doesn't enforce its own laws?

Cosmic Eagle
2013-06-04, 07:08
What I'm wondering is where do all the 'squids have lost their humanity' assumptions come from?

All we've seen is that they've transformed their bodies. There's literally no data about their minds or culture.

Just some overly squeamish assumptions with no demonstrated basis. Yet.

Anyway humanity...just what is it really. Would you lose your humanity or lose your true nature? I know which is far more significant for one. You are still you even if your form is different as long as the core of your being is still there.

You may also think that the GA are the aggressors since they launched an all out attack, but that's also just a speculation.

What's clear though is that the war started on Earth and that the Continental Union fired the first shot. Did that give an opportunity for hardliners amongst the squiddies to take over is debatable though I say quite likely

zeando
2013-06-04, 07:49
What I'm wondering is where do all the 'squids have lost their humanity' assumptions come from?

All we've seen is that they've transformed their bodies. There's literally no data about their minds or culture.
there are a few hints which lead to that assumption

but i'm thinking there is some confusion on it
the whalesquids aren't human, and weren't humans, what the record showed was that the whalesquids were the symbionts which were used to merge with humans to generate hideazue
so the squids (whalesquids) were never human, so they couldn't lose their humanity to start with
in that the whalesquids are only genetically modified squids (maybe with something human to make the merge easier, but are more squids than humans)

whalesquid + human = hideazue
whalesquid =/= hideazue

an other thing instead are the hideazue, or humans merged with whalesquids, like elanie looked like to be
in the records it got showed a leader of the evolvers having a speech while in hideazue form, so back then the evolvers could still communicate in an human language
but there is no info if the current hideazue ever tried to communicate with the GA, to form some kind of truce
and the merged humans still on the earth (assuming elanie wasn't the only one) never tried to communicate with the surface humans
the doubt is then if they didn't for some reason, or because they lost the ability to communicate with humans

it's also possible the hideazue which ledo had a fight in the first episode were just modified whalesquids, with no human in them, and the evolvers with merged humans were back in their nest to give orders to the soldier-whalesquids

aohige
2013-06-04, 08:09
It's also possible that few Hideauze (Evolvers) that stayed on Earth is co-existing with their brethern, the whalesquids (symbiotes).

The girl that got squashed could be an Evolver while all the squids up to the point were whalesquids.
I could see Evolvers being pack leaders of whalesquids.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-04, 08:11
There's a bit of confusion about that and it isn't really clear in this episode.

I generally agree with what zeando said, but I'm not quite sure that the whalesquids are simply simbionts or that they don't have any human dna in them.

In the recovered footage we see some sort of whalesquids with a clearly different morphology. Some of them look like crossbred with dogs and other animals.

Considering that the whalesquids have some distinctive human features which are even more marked when they are younger, I'd say that the chances that they posses human DNA is very high.

That being said in my opinion it's not really relevant how much human DNA they have, what matters is if they have a human mind or not, and neither the whalesquids nor the nautilus Hideauze (which are shown to be closely related) displayed any kind of behavior that would suggest so.


It's also possible that few Hideauze (Evolvers) that stayed on Earth is co-existing with their brethern, the whalesquids (symbiotes).

The girl that got squashed could be an Evolver while all the squids up to the point were whalesquids.
I could see Evolvers being pack leaders of whalesquids.

Yes, it's possible that some Evolvers were left behind the same way some normal humans did. However there is no sign of their presence in the whalesquid's nest. The childlike thing that Chamber squashed could have simply been a young whalesquid.

cf18
2013-06-04, 08:30
There is a small change in the OP sequence. Did you spot it?
The Rigid part - much smaller group on the bridge.

GreyZone
2013-06-04, 08:33
For people who know StarCraft:

Hideazue = Zerg
GA = Protoss
Gargantians = Terrans before spaceflight

It all makes sense now :D


and while I am at it:

Pirate Queen = Ancestor of Arturus Mengsk
Chamber = Ancestor or Sarah Kerrigan
Ledo = Ancestor of Jim Raynor

Funkatron
2013-06-04, 08:35
there are a few hints which lead to that assumption

but i'm thinking there is some confusion on it
the whalesquids aren't human, and weren't humans, what the record showed was that the whalesquids were the symbionts which were used to merge with humans to generate hideazue
so the squids (whalesquids) were never human, so they couldn't lose their humanity to start with
in that the whalesquids are only genetically modified squids (maybe with something human to make the merge easier, but are more squids than humans)

whalesquid + human = hideazue
whalesquid =/= hideazue

an other thing instead are the hideazue, or humans merged with whalesquids, like elanie looked like to be
in the records it got showed a leader of the evolvers having a speech while in hideazue form, so back then the evolvers could still communicate in an human language
but there is no info if the current hideazue ever tried to communicate with the GA, to form some kind of truce
and the merged humans still on the earth (assuming elanie wasn't the only one) never tried to communicate with the surface humans
the doubt is then if they didn't for some reason, or because they lost the ability to communicate with humans

it's also possible the hideazue which ledo had a fight in the first episode were just modified whalesquids, with no human in them, and the evolvers with merged humans were back in their nest to give orders to the soldier-whalesquids
Where was it said the whalesquids are just the symbiotes? Quite the contrary: they showed twice in the episode that whalesquid have human guts:

1. The whalesquid eggs have human-esque embryos
2. the squidling Chamber killed looked humanoid.

Thew whole point of the episode was to show that the whalesquid/hideauze were once human; otherwise, there would be no reason for Ledo to cry in anguish when Chamber killed that squidling. I don't think it makes sense to confuse the issue that some were part human and some weren't; there is no indication to indicate that at all. There is more evidence, however, to say they all had human ancestory; why would Ledo feel guilty otherwise?

Darth Fanta
2013-06-04, 08:45
What's clear though is that the war started on Earth and that the Continental Union fired the first shot. Did that give an opportunity for hardliners amongst the squiddies to take over is debatable though I say quite likelyThe Continental Union may have fired the first shot, but that's only because the squids violated agreements. That's more than enough to start a war in the real world.What the squids did was extremely reckless.

It's quite clear from the videos that actual testing of human subjects was only conducted for a limited amount of time, most likely not even a decade before the same procedures were conducted on a wider population--since Elaine was still a small child when she got turned into one. ONe might argue that changing the appearance wouldn't affect their intelligence and behaviour, but that's dead wrong. Changing your genes WILL affect your behaviour. Afterall, how you behave is influenced by both your experience and your genes. Adding a 'symbiont' most definitely doesn't help. The scientists are forgetting that the symbiont is also an separate organism. It's going to evolve in such a way that's most beneficial to itself. Evolving in the favor of their symbiont isn't their first priority. It's likely the symbionts could evolve to become something that dominates 'human' they are supposed to be symbionts with.It's blatant reckless that they believe they could tame easily tame another organism like how eukaryotes incorporated cyanobacteria and purple bacteria--even if they engineered the symbiont.

BUt of course, my reasoning is only based on current principles of biological science, they have found a way to pinpoint the functions of every single gene and manipulate it with precision.

apotheosis
2013-06-04, 09:37
Where was it said the whalesquids are just the symbiotes? Quite the contrary: they showed twice in the episode that whalesquid have human guts:

1. The whalesquid eggs have human-esque embryos
2. the squidling Chamber killed looked humanoid.

Thew whole point of the episode was to show that the whalesquid/hideauze were once human; otherwise, there would be no reason for Ledo to cry in anguish when Chamber killed that squidling. I don't think it makes sense to confuse the issue that some were part human and some weren't; there is no indication to indicate that at all. There is more evidence, however, to say they all had human ancestory; why would Ledo feel guilty otherwise?

They were clearly first introduced as symbiotes in the video & then they started experimenting with merging.

The whalesquids resemble the symbiotes more than the merged Hideaze IMO, but we don't know that for sure. The one killed at the end of the ep could be a juvenile or it could be a human merged. However, if it was really a human merged Hideaze, I would think it'd be smarter than to just waltz into the area where all its brethren had been destroyed ..

Ledo has been killing human Hideaze for a long time, so even if the recent ones were just symbiotes he still has a heavy load of shock to deal with.

Funkatron
2013-06-04, 10:20
They were clearly first introduced as symbiotes in the video & then they started experimenting with merging.

The whalesquids resemble the symbiotes more than the merged Hideaze IMO, but we don't know that for sure. The one killed at the end of the ep could be a juvenile or it could be a human merged. However, if it was really a human merged Hideaze, I would think it'd be smarter than to just waltz into the area where all its brethren had been destroyed ..

Ledo has been killing human Hideaze for a long time, so even if the recent ones were just symbiotes he still has a heavy load of shock to deal with.
The one that was killed at the end had to be a "merged" creature because it looked like that girl squid in the video. The symbiont only creatures never looked like that, even in the video

The most damning evidence that these have human ancestory ie descendents of human/symbionts are the larvae:

Squiddy outside, human-esque center
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r554/funkedgeek/squidbabies_zps3eaf4335.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r554/funkedgeek/squidbabies2_zpsee5e5ab3.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r554/funkedgeek/squidbabies3_zps82649a46.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r554/funkedgeek/squidbabies4_zpsf5bb128c.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r554/funkedgeek/squidbabies5_zps1f7b1e54.jpg

They look so human that Ledo had to ask if these were truly Hideauze children. Having the whalesquid be just the symbionts 1. Has not been hinted at all 2. confuses the overall message of the episode: Ledo and the GA has been killing humans this whole time. There is more evidence that they were human than that they are just symbionts

rocket
2013-06-04, 10:32
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
An ancient ruin of human civilization - a ruin they built (not just humans, but Evolvers). How is that any different than the Gargantians, who appear to be using technology that would be old by our standards? I think this is strictly habitat chauvinism - the biped society looks like ours and the whalesquid doesn't, so they must be mindless beasts.
Not really, you can clearly notice that the Gargantians have heavily modified and changed salvaged technology to their needs. The comparison really doesn't stand.

Actually Gen made a point of showing us that's not the case. Gargantia's irrigation system is fatally busted and they can't fix it. Best they can do is send a kid on a glider periodically to restart a backup pump.

Gargatian's are salvaging and repurposing but in a state of slow and inevitable decline.

We even spend time in the story exploring Ledo and Chamber's initial assessment. From the GA's perspective Gargatians are savages with no "organization"... effectively they've reverted to animal form.

Hmm... sound familiar?

Squid haters have no basis for assuming that space squid colonies are any less sentient or civilized than the 'devolved' GA.

Frankly I consider the GA to have made the ultimate devil's bargain - they've kept the exterior shape of what it means to be human and given up everything that actually defines human ideals. Perhaps space squids have lost their humanity as well (it *is* Gen after all) but to jump to that conclusion simply because they are hideous is falling into the very same irrational fear of the 'other' that justifies all wars.

zeando
2013-06-04, 10:36
Where was it said the whalesquids are just the symbiotes?

in the records, where it got shown when the whalesquids got created

Triple_R
2013-06-04, 10:38
Actually Gen made a point of showing us that's not the case. Gargantia's irrigation system is fatally busted and they can't fix it. Best they can do is send a kid on a glider periodically to restart a backup pump.

Gargatian's are salvaging and repurposing but in a state of slow and inevitable decline.

Whatever one thinks of such "salvaging and repurposing", it is enough to demonstrate sapience. Besides which, we have conversations between Ledo and the Gargantian crew that clearly demonstrates that the Gargantian crew have human level-intelligent and sapience.

We see no such evidence with the Earth Hideauze. They do not appear to have built, salvaged, or repurposed much of anything.

So there is legitimate reason to doubt that the Earth Hideauze are sapient. In other words, there is legitimate reason to doubt that they enjoy human level intelligence.

The Space Hideauze could well be a different matter. Chamber noted some differences between the Space Hideauze and the Earth Hideauze.


But while you take issue with "squid haters", the fact is we have no proof that the Space Hideauze are sapient or enjoy human level-intelligence. So those who insist that the Space Hideauze are sapient and have human-level intelligence have no more basis for that insistence than those who insist the contrary. Its a completely open question at this point.

Funkatron
2013-06-04, 10:40
in the records, where it got shown when the whalesquids got created

They showed how the symbiotes got created. Evidence that I posted shows these are not just symbiotes

zeando
2013-06-04, 10:52
They showed how the symbiotes got created. Evidence that I posted shows these are not just symbiotes

haven't you forgot about the very human-like evolver who had the first test if they could survive in space?
that didn't look so much like a squid but a lot more like an human, just with some tentacles around the head
the mature whalesquids show no signs of anything human (maybe except the teeth), and as i suggested before maybe they resembling humans in some parts was only to make easier the merge

to reword it, how can you be sure the symbiotes when they got firstly created didn't already had fetus-like first growth stages and human-like teeth?
i mean, have you considered the possibility of the symbiotes got created with human guts? (it's nothing so fictional, pigs with human organs created for organ donations it's something which was already tried in the real world)

Darth Fanta
2013-06-04, 10:52
Whatever one thinks of such "salvaging and repurposing", it is enough to demonstrate sapience. Besides which, we have conversations between Ledo and the Gargantian crew that clearly demonstrates that the Gargantian crew have human level-intelligent and sapience.

We see no such evidence with the Earth Hideauze. They do not appear to have built, salvaged, or repurposed much of anything.

So there is legitimate reason to doubt that the Earth Hideauze are sapient. In other words, there is legitimate reason to doubt that they enjoy human level intelligence.

The Space Hideauze could well be a different matter. Chamber noted some differences between the Space Hideauze and the Earth Hideauze.


But while you take issue with "squid haters", the fact is we have no proof that the Space Hideauze are sapient or enjoy human level-intelligence. So those who insist that the Space Hideauze are sapient and have human-level intelligence have no more basis for that insistence than those who insist the contrary. Its a completely open question at this point.They did build a freaking 'death star' in episode one which wiped out a large portion of the human fleet though.

Funkatron
2013-06-04, 11:03
haven't you forgot about the very human-like evolver who had the first test if they could survive in space?
that didn't look so much like a squid but a lot more like an human, just with some tentacles around the head
the mature whalesquids show no signs of anything human (maybe except the teeth), and as i suggested before maybe they resembling humans in some parts was only to make easier the merge

to reword it, how can you be sure the symbiotes when they got firstly created didn't already had fetus-like first growth stages and human-like teeth?

Because it doesn't fit the narative of the story.

The writers have been hinting at this in small doses before and heavily here: the "dat ass"( :p ) squid, the human like teeth and now the embryo like squid babies and the squidling Chamber killed (especially after showing what a kid turned squid looked like in the video). To have them be just the non human creation sucks all the impact of the revelation and Ledo's despair. The whole point of the episode was to shock Ledo and the viewer to the fact that "ZOMG, they're people! You've been killing people!". It makes no sense to take it back with "Oh, the ones you were killing right now weren't people, though. You're freaking out for nothing, dude."

zeando
2013-06-04, 11:09
Because it doesn't fit the narative of the story.

The writers have been hinting at this in small doses before and heavily here: the "dat ass"( :p ) squid, the human like teeth and now the embryo like squid babies and the squidling Chamber killed (especially after showing what a kid turned squid looked like in the video). To have them be just the non human creation sucks all the impact of the revelation and Ledo's despair. The whole point of the episode was to shock Ledo and the viewer to the fact that "ZOMG, they're people! You've been killing people!". It makes no sense to take it back with "Oh, the ones you were killing right now weren't people, though. You're freaking out for nothing, dude."
that's just you adapting the story to your expectations then, like i was doing :u

Triple_R
2013-06-04, 11:09
They did build a freaking 'death star' in episode one which wiped out a large portion of the human fleet though.

I rewatched the first half of Episode 1, and you're right.

The organic/flower-looking nature of that super-weapon had overly influenced my memory of it.

So yes, the Space Hideauze do appear to be sapient.

Dark Wing
2013-06-04, 12:04
It's perfectly fine to disagree with the Evolvers, but we shouldn't lose sight of the GA's flaws that we knew of long before this episode.


The GA has outlawed families, for crying out loud. They've stripped the word "co-existence" from the dictionary. The physically weak are simply disposed of. The soldier class (and possibly all humans) need to earn such basic rights as the right to eat, sleep, and procreate as they wish. That is a massive curtailing on human rights. We knew all of this before this episode even aired.

Imperialist fascists don't become good guys just because they happen to be warring with Lovecraftian horrors (if that's how you choose to view the Hideauze). They're still imperialist fascists, and should be recognized as such.

I'm going to have to side with Triple R on this one. Neither side are in the right here so it's hard for me to pick a side.

Iron Maw
2013-06-04, 12:10
Thanks to a certain image that was posted a couple of episode threads back, I wasn't surprised at the connection between the hideauze and mankind. The history that followed it was something else though, in a good way.

Triple_R
2013-06-04, 12:17
I'm going to have to side with Triple R on this one. Neither side are in the right here so it's hard for me to pick a side.

Thanks. :)

Really, I don't think the narrative expects the viewer to pick a side. Especially since I doubt we'll be seeing any more of the Space Hideauze or the GA.

The real question is how Ledo handles the dark, awful truth of what he's been put through, and what he's done. Sapient or not, he's just brutally massacred an entire community of whalesquids that weren't threatening anyone. And, if nothing else, at least some of these whalesquids have human ancestry. Can Ledo recover from this? Will Chamber let him?

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-04, 12:34
To me the Continental Union was right at the beginning. You don't tolerate those who violate human rights for the sake of research. Even if it is useful you can't justify atrocities.

The Continental Union developed a method for continuing their civilization and spread humanity in the galaxy to find a new home.

Basically saying to the Evolvers. Fine you guys want to mutate yourself then I'm out of here so we wont waste each others time.

The Evolvers already fanatical wont let the Continental Union be so they followed them.

The constant war lead the Continental Union to be the Galactic Alliance. A communist eugenic state where you are told what your place in society is. Naturally this likely lead to some dissenters as human rights again was ignored. This is likely the origin of the Drifters/Wandering Tribes.

jcdietz03
2013-06-04, 12:50
It's all because she actually looked kinda cute. This is basically human's attitude towards other animals in a nutshell

Is it cute? If you harm it you're a bastard!
Is it ugly? Argh! Kill it! Kill it!Also, children are cute and adults are ugly. This holds true for Hideauze children as well.

It seems like Continental Union and Evolvers could talk with one another at least initially. Early on, Evolver faction was some evolved people and some humans who want to evolve. At some point the sides stopped talking to each other. I have no idea how this could have happened. In real lengthy conflicts, like Europe's Hundred Years War, different sides were still able to communicate with each other in spite of lengthy conflict.

It's possible that, during the time between the CU hyperspace jump and Hideauze catching up with them, they had forgotten how to communicate with each other. If that's the case though, wouldn't the Hideaze forget about transgressions of the past, and just go somewhere else in the galaxy, to live in peace?

GreyZone
2013-06-04, 12:58
Some people said that the Hideauze are operating on a hive-mind. If that is true, then I would rather be on the GA's side, because there there is at least a POSSIBILITY, however small it is, to bring about a change in the society. This seems impossible for me on the Hideauze side if they really are a hive-mind.

It would be different though if the Hideauze still were individuals. Then I would probably not be able to choose a side.

Dark Wing
2013-06-04, 13:08
To me the Continental Union was right at the beginning. You don't tolerate those who violate human rights for the sake of research. Even if it is useful you can't justify atrocities.

The Continental Union developed a method for continuing their civilization and spread humanity in the galaxy to find a new home.

Basically saying to the Evolvers. Fine you guys want to mutate yourself then I'm out of here so we wont waste each others time.

The Evolvers already fanatical wont let the Continental Union be so they followed them.

The constant war lead the Continental Union to be the Galactic Alliance. A communist eugenic state where you are told what your place in society is. Naturally this likely lead to some dissenters as human rights again was ignored. This is likely the origin of the Drifters/Wandering Tribes.

You're leaving out the part where the Continental Union bombed the Evolvers' research facility and this is before they said "Screw this I'm out!" attempting to leave everyone else behind.

As for the Drifters/Wandering Tribes I can really see a split in philosophy being different the being the case.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-04, 13:12
You're leaving out the part where the Continental Union bombed the Evolvers' research facility and this is before they said "Screw this I'm out!" attempting to leave everyone else behind.


Reading comprehension fail.

You don't tolerate those who violate human rights for the sake of research. Even if it is useful you can't justify atrocities.

Also we are not sure if the Continental Union set the gate to self destruct. For all we know the Evolver leader said that to motivate his people to steal the gate.

Repelsteeltju
2013-06-04, 14:48
Reading comprehension fail.



Also we are not sure if the Continental Union set the gate to self destruct. For all we know the Evolver leader said that to motivate his people to steal the gate.
Why would they need to steal the gate though, if the unionists where just going to leave the gate once they had gone though it?

LKK
2013-06-04, 15:01
Why would they need to steal the gate though, if the unionists where just going to leave the gate once they had gone though it?
The unionists built the gate. The Evolvers believed that the unionists were going to destroy the gate once the unionists were through it; thereby stranding the Evolvers to Earth and its immediate space. Therefore, the Evolvers decided to steal (in other words, take control of the gate) to keep the unionists from destroying the gate after their exodus was done.

taofd
2013-06-04, 16:26
You clearly haven't read what I wrote or you don't know how civil movements work.

I said that you have the right to protest and to advocate the necessity to change the law. That's how you should do it, if you want to keep it peaceful.



I'm sure the GA will allow you to have your peaceful protest unabated. Governments like the GA only continue to operate because outside pressure is trumping all other needs. Their fight against the Hideaze is what is keeping that society together.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-04, 17:20
Some people said that the Hideauze are operating on a hive-mind. If that is true, then I would rather be on the GA's side, because there there is at least a POSSIBILITY, however small it is, to bring about a change in the society.
Not that small. They just need to win the war. Once the outside pressure is gone and survival is insured, they'll want what lies beyond survival.

The squids, OTOH, will still be squids even if they win.

zeando
2013-06-04, 17:39
The unionists built the gate. The Evolvers believed that the unionists were going to destroy the gate once the unionists were through it; thereby stranding the Evolvers to Earth and its immediate space. Therefore, the Evolvers decided to steal (in other words, take control of the gate) to keep the unionists from destroying the gate after their exodus was done.
the question is then why did the evolvers need to use the gate too?
they should have been able to live in space, so they didn't even need a planet, they had an infinite space they could have used, and they already solved their problem of survivalism caused by the ice age


talking about the episode, i found curious the expression of ledo during the speech of the leader of the evolvers when they were talking about taking over the warp gate to "expand into the space for greater prosperity"
i guess he remembered some of the speeches he heard in the galactic alliance

rocket
2013-06-04, 18:49
Whatever one thinks of such "salvaging and repurposing", it is enough to demonstrate sapience. Besides which, we have conversations between Ledo and the Gargantian crew that clearly demonstrates that the Gargantian crew have human level-intelligent and sapience.

We see no such evidence with the Earth Hideauze. They do not appear to have built, salvaged, or repurposed much of anything.

So there is legitimate reason to doubt that the Earth Hideauze are sapient. In other words, there is legitimate reason to doubt that they enjoy human level intelligence.


As far as I recall from watching the show no one's tried talking to them - so that's kinda moot.

On the other hand they are 'squatting' in the remains of their base more or less analogously to how the Gargatians are squatting. The main difference being that because of their biology they don't need to make machines to shlter or protect themselves or to feed themselves. So what? They could still have as 'rich' and complex a social and aesthetic life as the Gargantians. Why do we assume that technological or economic activity is required to be sapient?

Furthermore the argument was that the whalesquids are just animals so it's OK TO KILL THEM. That I find kind of horrifying, because if they are are indeed sapient, then it's murder to kill them without just cause.


The Space Hideauze could well be a different matter. Chamber noted some differences between the Space Hideauze and the Earth Hideauze.

But while you take issue with "squid haters", the fact is we have no proof that the Space Hideauze are sapient or enjoy human level-intelligence. So those who insist that the Space Hideauze are sapient and have human-level intelligence have no more basis for that insistence than those who insist the contrary. Its a completely open question at this point.

Well I'm glad you changed your perspective on this.

Given that the space squids can live out in space and humans v1.0 really just want planets its really quite a tragedy that they can't coexist.

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-04, 19:09
They did build a freaking 'death star' in episode one which wiped out a large portion of the human fleet though.

Doesn't matter. The G.A. dudes are so dreamy, the Hideauze are clearly subhuman beasts by comparison.

Triple_R
2013-06-04, 19:10
As far as I recall from watching the show no one's tried talking to them - so that's kinda moot.

No, it isn't moot.

The point is we know that the Gargantian crew is sapient. We know that, and conversations between them and Ledo is part of the reason why we know that.

We definitely do not know if the Earth Hideauze are sapient or not. But I think there are good reasons for doubting that, and no significant basis for considering them sapient at the moment.


On the other hand they are 'squatting' in the remains of their base more or less analogously to how the Gargatians are squatting.

Shaky analogy, imo. The Earth Hideauze have done nothing with their base other than make a nest out of it. The Gargantians have done plenty with their base.


The main difference being that because of their biology they don't need to make machines to shelter or protect themselves or to feed themselves.

Machines could still offer them all sorts of benefits. For example, it could make it easier for them to collect and store food. Whatever they eat, machines could be helpful here.

Sorry, rocket, but the lack of any evidence of them having built anything really is a mark against the idea of them being sapient, imo. Maybe this will change in future episodes, but working with what we have now, there's not much there to imply sapience.


So what? They could still have as 'rich' and complex a social and aesthetic life as the Gargantians.

I doubt that. Do they read? Do they have any sort of culture to speak of? The Gargantians have both of this, but I see no evidence of it with the Earth Hideauze.


Why do we assume that technological or economic activity is required to be sapient?

You might not need that specifically, but you need something, imo. I don't see anything that hints at sapience on the part of the Earth Hideauze.


Furthermore the argument was that the whalesquids are just animals so it's OK TO KILL THEM.

I don't think it's Ok to kill them for the sake of killing them, which is what Ledo was doing. Even if they're not sapient, that still represents extreme cruelty towards animals, which isn't something I'd personally look kindly on. If they are sapient, then it's no less than an atrocious war crime, albeit a somewhat unwitting one.


Given that the space squids can live out in space and humans v1.0 really just want planets its really quite a tragedy that they can't coexist.

Agreed.

LKK
2013-06-04, 19:50
the question is then why did the evolvers need to use the gate too?
they should have been able to live in space, so they didn't even need a planet, they had an infinite space they could have used, and they already solved their problem of survivalism caused by the ice age.
That's a very good question. As far as we know, the evolvers had no need for the gate in order to survive. They should have been able to live within the solar system and the surrounding interstellar region. What we do know is that their leader expressed an expansionist empire agenda and that seems to have been what drove them to follow the unionists into deep space. (The unionists needed the deep space wormhole gate in order to discover inhabitable planets.)

Funkatron
2013-06-04, 21:02
Speculation on the intelligence of the whalesquid:

I don't think its fair to judge their sapiency purely based on whether they use tech, mainly because they don't necessarily need tech.

Necessity is the mother of invention. The Gargantians salvage for tech because they need it. They are at a disadvantage in the current climate: the world is almost completely covered in water. They need the ships and the knowledge to learn how to operate and maintain those ships. They rely on the tech for food, shelter, transportation, etc.

The whalesquid don't need the tech in comparison. They were designed to live under water. They have everything they need down there. They are their own transportation, they already have shelter and the sea life is there food.

Another thing to speculate on is the level of knowledge each civilization had when the ice age happened. Its possible the humans just knew more and were able to pass the knowledge down the generations better than the whalesquid. I'd assume any smart Evolvers left to go into space, taking with them the knowledge to use technology. The ones who were left behind just don't see the use for tech, if they even know what it is or what it does. Id the whalesquid are sapient, they are basically just underwater cavemen

Cosmic Eagle
2013-06-04, 22:43
The Continental Union may have fired the first shot, but that's only because the squids violated agreements. That's more than enough to start a war in the real world.What the squids did was extremely reckless.

It's quite clear from the videos that actual testing of human subjects was only conducted for a limited amount of time, most likely not even a decade before the same procedures were conducted on a wider population--since Elaine was still a small child when she got turned into one. ONe might argue that changing the appearance wouldn't affect their intelligence and behaviour, but that's dead wrong. Changing your genes WILL affect your behaviour. Afterall, how you behave is influenced by both your experience and your genes. Adding a 'symbiont' most definitely doesn't help. The scientists are forgetting that the symbiont is also an separate organism. It's going to evolve in such a way that's most beneficial to itself. Evolving in the favor of their symbiont isn't their first priority. It's likely the symbionts could evolve to become something that dominates 'human' they are supposed to be symbionts with.It's blatant reckless that they believe they could tame easily tame another organism like how eukaryotes incorporated cyanobacteria and purple bacteria--even if they engineered the symbiont.

BUt of course, my reasoning is only based on current principles of biological science, they have found a way to pinpoint the functions of every single gene and manipulate it with precision.

Exactly...you will be going deeper into question of self and its link with the physical frame which to western science, is practically unknown territory.

But recklessness or not they could have left the squids alone since I don't recall them forcing experiments on enslaved captives or the like. You are already well advanced into your plan to flee the planet. Why start a war in the bargain. It's like the very last thing you should be doing at that stage, giving yourself extra trouble like that

mikeomni
2013-06-04, 23:13
Exactly...you will be going deeper into question of self and its link with the physical frame which to western science, is practically unknown territory.

But recklessness or not they could have left the squids alone since I don't recall them forcing experiments on enslaved captives or the like. You are already well advanced into your plan to flee the planet. Why start a war in the bargain. It's like the very last thing you should be doing at that stage, giving yourself extra trouble like that

There were probably other factors and all we're seeing is the propaganda. The being hideous is just a hook to get the population to follow along. There is power and wealth in the stars! If the Evolvers get there first the Colonial Union politicians and their backers will have less. You can't have less, that's unacceptable! Hey, the population will follow you like sheep when faced with an external threat, while you line your ducks up in a row then reap the benefits. Sounds like a good plan. May it last a thousand years!

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-04, 23:24
If the Evolvers get there first the Colonial Union politicians and their backers will have less. You can't have less, that's unacceptable!

You forgot "Mister President, we must not allow a mine shaft gap!" ;)

Anyway, the hideousness didn't help. People already kill each other for far less.

(Starting a war also has the coincident bonus, if you're trying to leave a dying planet behind, of reducing the number of people that you end up having to take with you... though if Avalon is the last refuge of humanity and it's down to 470 million people, that might not have worked out very well in the end.)

FlareKnight
2013-06-04, 23:29
Regardless I do feel for Ledo who doesn't have the ability to sit back and consider this situation from a safe distance. He's right in the middle of it. How will he regard the Hideauze from this point on? How will he regard his own actions to this point? His perspective has been changed because of what he's learned here. Whether or not they are sapient might not even matter at this point. Hard to fight when the line is blurred like this.

A lot of things are up in the air at this point. I can't imagine they are going to find a way to make contact regardless since I doubt Chamber was designed to cross that kind of communication gap. Also they are still a threat for those trying to salvage in areas where the Hideauze have nested.

Just curious to see how Ledo is going to respond. That war is going to continue without him and he's going to have to decide how to live from this point on. Hard to see him continuing his attack with the mental state he's in.

Hamster
2013-06-05, 00:37
Once, I said I'm with the kill-Hideauze camp because they are just animals.

Guess what? I changed my mind.

I'm now with the kill-Hideauze camp because they are xenos bastards who will corrupt humanity if nothing is done. Anyone who want to defend the Hideauze can go become squids.

Sorry bud, if the first episode is anything to go by then the Hideauze Master Race has already won.

The best the GA can do is to run, run as far away as they can.

And no, they don't want to corrupt humanity, they just want to kill the GA.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-05, 01:23
Machines could still offer them all sorts of benefits. For example, it could make it easier for them to collect and store food. Whatever they eat, machines could be helpful here.

They eat ambient nanomachines. Or get energy from them, anyway.


I don't think it's Ok to kill them for the sake of killing them, which is what Ledo was doing. Even if they're not sapient, that still represents extreme cruelty towards animals, which isn't something I'd personally look kindly on. If they are sapient, then it's no less than an atrocious war crime, albeit a somewhat unwitting one.

Ledo's killing them because he has pretty good reasons to be afraid of them.

Besides, "we want stuff that's in your territory" is generally considered a good reason to kill animals and, sometimes, humans....


the question is then why did the evolvers need to use the gate too?
they should have been able to live in space, so they didn't even need a planet,
They still need power, like every living organism. I guess they meant to build generators and store enough fuel for the decades it'd take to reach another star, but the wormhole's faster.

zztop
2013-06-05, 05:48
Re ep 9's twist, and the release of that After Earth movie,

Could M Night Shyamalan ever have made such an Urobuchi style twist in his movies? Considering that Shyamalan loves making twists...

triplez
2013-06-05, 06:00
Whoa there's a lot of good stuff here.

After watching this episode I still feel its too early to pass judgment on the GA or Hideauze. All Ledo got was snippets of news footage and what amounts to a declaration of war in the last shot showing the full might of the Space Hideauze. We finally got the origins of the conflict - irreconcilable views on how to response to a worldwide disaster - disagreement turn to confrontation to escalation and events keep spiraling out of control.

Remember it took years even decades for it to get as bad as it did. The United Nations was still around who knows if mediation took place and failed. Neither side was willing to come to terms, its all or nothing .I suspect the Continental Union attempt to abandoned the Evolvers on earth was the last straw. I don't think the current leadership of GA or Hideauze care anymore after so long.

What's funny is how it reminds me of a Civilization player trapped in a 3 way Eternal War for control of a world in flux caused by global warming. I read it online. He had to drop all notions of democracy as it tied his hands to response to enemies who would break their treaty at every turn. All manpower and resources had to be marshalled for the war effort. There is no point to diversify to other goals.

I'm looking forward to seeing what choice Ledo will make. As there's only a few more episodes left it's unlikely we will see more of the galactic conflict. There is still the wormhole gate mentioned in the video logs. It could be the means for Ledo to go back home if he can get to space but will he want to? Will he bring the GA back to earth? Will he continue his so called 'mission'? Or will he call Gargantia his new home?

I can't wait to see what choice he will make.

zeando
2013-06-05, 06:10
That's a very good question. As far as we know, the evolvers had no need for the gate in order to survive. They should have been able to live within the solar system and the surrounding interstellar region. What we do know is that their leader expressed an expansionist empire agenda and that seems to have been what drove them to follow the unionists into deep space. (The unionists needed the deep space wormhole gate in order to discover inhabitable planets.)
yup, that's how i'm seeing it too currently

They still need power, like every living organism. I guess they meant to build generators and store enough fuel for the decades it'd take to reach another star, but the wormhole's faster.

Sunlight you mean for power?
Wasn't only the earth to be in ice age? didn't looked like there was a problem with the sun activity yet.
why did they want to get to other stars?

even if, as someone already noted, with the tech level they had during the ice age (they=both evolvers and CU) looking for an other planet to live on or manipulating dna were pretty extreme solutions, since they could have focused on tecnology about atmospheric/weather control instead, and have no need for the other solutions of leaving the planet or forcibly adapting/mutating
it may be that in part both sides used the ice age as an excuse to develop their solutions

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-05, 06:17
Even if, as someone already noted, with the tech level they had during the ice age (they=both evolvers and CU) looking for an other planet to live on or manipulating dna were pretty extreme solutions, since they could have focused on tecnology about atmospheric/weather control instead, and have no need for the other solutions of leaving the planet or forcibly adapting/mutating
it may be that in part both sides used the ice age as an excuse to develop their solutions

I can imagine a third party going.

Mad Scientist: Sure go to deep space you fools while I figure out how to heat this planet!

Later Earth becomes a Waterworld.

zeando
2013-06-05, 06:18
I can imagine a third party going.

Mad Scientist: Sure go to deep space you fools while I figure out how to heat this planet!

Later Earth becomes a Waterworld.

lol, they overdid it xD
but maybe they really tried but failed? :heh:

FredFriendly
2013-06-05, 06:39
Or will he call Gargantia his new home?

But he's already abandoned Gargantia and is part of the new [unnamed?] fleet. Would the leaders of Gargantia even want him back after mass-murdering the Hideauze? Especially if they hear about the babies, let alone if they find out what Ledo discovered about the origin of the Hideauze?

As to the reliability of the videos, I suspect that what we saw was from both sides of the issue. Chamber seemed to have collected bits from various storage devices, and even the "opposition" would have had footage of the other side stored on the devices.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-05, 07:26
Speculation on the intelligence of the whalesquid:

I don't think its fair to judge their sapiency purely based on whether they use tech, mainly because they don't necessarily need tech.

Necessity is the mother of invention. The Gargantians salvage for tech because they need it. They are at a disadvantage in the current climate: the world is almost completely covered in water. They need the ships and the knowledge to learn how to operate and maintain those ships. They rely on the tech for food, shelter, transportation, etc.

The whalesquid don't need the tech in comparison. They were designed to live under water. They have everything they need down there. They are their own transportation, they already have shelter and the sea life is there food.


What about culture? What about art? Are they so "evolved" that they no longer need those either? What happened to the innate tendency of humans to create and innovate?

I refuse to believe that in a large population of humans gifted with intelligence and knowledge nobody would dare to touch a single thing of their environment and never create or modify anything. (Remember, they simply left the yunboroid there for who knows how many years)

If whalesquids are content with just swimming around all day and reproducing then something must have radically changed their minds to a point that they can hardly be distinguished from beasts.

I have more respect for ants and termites, at least they create something.



Besides, "we want stuff that's in your territory" is generally considered a good reason to kill animals and, sometimes, humans....

Agreed on that, but that's not a good excuse to exterminate them.

People get eaten by tigers and sharks, but you don't exterminate them. The first are actually being protected.

Besides at this point the whalesquids might play a role on the ecosystem of this new world, so before going that far it would be wise to check the consequence of removing them completely. They might play an important role on regulating the flux and behavior of the lightbugs.


But he's already abandoned Gargantia and is part of the new [unnamed?] fleet. Would the leaders of Gargantia even want him back after mass-murdering the Hideauze? Especially if they hear about the babies, let alone if they find out what Ledo discovered about the origin of the Hideauze?


You forget that they are Gargantians.

orpheus2
2013-06-05, 08:00
As expected, Gen delivered. From the debates here, I guess he wanted this to happen. He may have wanted examine ourselves.

In this case, I can not side with either the Evolvers or the GA.

FredFriendly
2013-06-05, 08:07
You forget that they are Gargantians.

I was under the impression that the humongous conglomeration of ships was Gargantia Fleet (confirmed by the synopsis (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=4465294#post4465294)) and, since the other ships had left it, they are no longer "Gargantians" per se. They are now Unnamedfleetions. Do you think that they would be readily welcome back into the Gargantian fleet?

I suppose if an individual had been born on the Gargantian Fleet, then that person could be considered a native Gargantian. But we don't know the history of all of those people and ships that left. Ships seem to join and leave the Gargantian Fleet at will, as indeed there was a new ship that just recently joined. If a ship had, say, just joined the Gargantian Fleet a month ago, but left with Pinion and crew, would you still consider them Gargantians?

I also may be entirely wrong, but I expect that what triplez alluded to was Ledo returning to the Gargantian Fleet to live out a happy blissful life with Amy.

Although I doubt that Pinion and his cohorts would be bothered by what Ledo has discovered (whether or not they are Gargantians), and certainly were not bothered by his barbaric behavior, we do know that Amy and many (if not most) of the other inhabitants of the Gargantian Fleet would be abhorred at his genocide-like actions.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-05, 08:25
No, Fred, when I said "they are Gargantians" I was referring to Ridget and all those that are with her.
What you are forgetting is that they do not think like you do.

You seem to be under the mistaked assumption that the Gargantians follow some kind of ideal, when they are actually a pragmatic society that doesn't have any sense of pride or higher moral apart: "help me, help you".


When Ledo exterminated the pirates their concern wasn't much "poor pirates", but "oh noes! now they will attack us!"
The only ones who expressed some slight trace of concern about them were Amy and Bellows. But nobody actually went as far as to say that Ledo was a mass murderer.

Similarly when Pinion proposed to kill Ledo, nobody felt outraged by the thought of killing a human just for personal gain. What Fairlock actually said was "What if he has companions?!"

Still not convinced? Then remember Ridget when she stopped Ledo. She said "if the whalesquid attack us, then you can go and massacre them". That's how much they care about whalesquids really.


Now do you actually think they would think twice about taking Flange again with them considering that:

1) Flange's fleet is an important asset for defense
2) They are coming back with valuable technology

Remember that Ridget wanted to disassemble Chamber to study it. She is not a luddite, she has an interest in technology as much as Flange, but unlike him she doesn't want to take any risk.

In the end they won't give a damn about the fact that Flange left or that they killed whalesquids. The only thing that would make them think twice about accepting them again would be the thought that they might be bringing with them the hatred of a powerful foe.

triplez
2013-06-05, 08:30
I have the sneaky suspicion that they will want him back. If killing one whalesquid brought thousands to Gargantia it be quite something to see how the whalesquids will attack a fleet either Flange's newly formed fleet or Gargantia's.

I can't believe that is the only whalesquid nest. If they still have some human impulses left they will call for help from other nests. Ledo has upset the status quo there must be some repurcussion from that.

Even better if Ledo found a ship or some way to get to the wormhole gate he receives a call for help. What will he do then?

Jan-Poo
2013-06-05, 08:35
Even better if Ledo found a ship or some way to get to the wormhole gate he receives a call for help. What will he do then?

He doesn't need a ship, Chamber can go to orbit by himself.
If the wormhole gate is still there, that could be a chance for Ledo to go back to the alliance.

Funkatron
2013-06-05, 08:52
He doesn't need a ship, Chamber can go to orbit by himself.
If the wormhole gate is still there, that could be a chance for Ledo to go back to the alliance.

If he wants to go back to the GA. After this ep, he just may not want anything to do with them anymore

FredFriendly
2013-06-05, 09:15
No, Fred, when I said "they are Gargantians" I was referring to Ridget and all those that are with her.

Sorry, Jan, I couldn't tell from your response.

What you are forgetting is that they do not think like you do.

Not really. Nobody thinks like I do.

You seem to be under the mistaked assumption that the Gargantians follow some kind of ideal, when they are actually a pragmatic society that doesn't have any sense of pride or higher moral apart: "help me, help you"...

I guess Amy is the sole moral exceptions, then, telling Ledo that humans shouldn't kill other humans.

In the end they won't give a damn about the fact that Flange left or that they killed whalesquids. The only thing that would make them think twice about accepting them again would be the thought that they might be bringing with them the hatred of a powerful foe.

You are probably right about most of that, particularly the very last bit.

Which reminds me, am I the only one to think that there was way too much of a discrepancy between the build-up of the threat of a whalesquid attack, and the then subsequent ease of their slaughter? It didn't seem to me that the density of whalesquids during Ledo's attack was anywhere near what we witnessed during the swarm that passed the Gargantian Fleet.

I can't believe that is the only whalesquid nest. If they still have some human impulses left they will call for help from other nests. Ledo has upset the status quo there must be some repurcussion from that.

If that really is the end of the whalesquids, it will certainly be very anticlimactical. I wasn't counting, but it didn't seem like Ledo slaughtered as many mature whalesquids as were in that swarm. If not, where were the rest of them?

Jan-Poo
2013-06-05, 10:10
I guess Amy is the sole moral exceptions, then, telling Ledo that humans shouldn't kill other humans.


That was actually Bellows that said something of that sort. When Ledo pointed out that they kill animals to eat she answered that pirates are humans.

Amy wasn't even able to articulate her disapproval beyond a "Ledo no baka!"

We don't actually know if she was angry because he killed humans or because she though he went too far. She showed her disapproval even when Ledo expressed his will to exterminate the Hideauze. "wouldn't you feel bad for killing them?" she said.

When Bellows said that they kill animals only as much as it is necessary to fill their stomach, Amy had a clear reaction of approval, so I think that's her main stance on "killings".

Considering how easily she made up with Ledo she probably doesn't think of human lives or lives in general in terms of something absolutely sacred, but she thinks it's wrong to kill unnecessarily.

Hamster
2013-06-05, 10:21
The fleet that left, left on good terms with the Gargantians. They left their friends and possibly family members for a chance at a better life.

There were no angry words and no hurt feelings.

They'd probably be welcomed back with the new cargo of treasure and baby squids.

Shinhwa
2013-06-05, 21:16
Welp, let the tragedy and deaths begin next episode thanks to Urobutcher I guess?

apotheosis
2013-06-05, 22:02
Welp, let the tragedy and deaths begin next episode thanks to Urobutcher I guess?

I think it could go either way at this point.

His interview seemed to indicate this anime would not be dominated by that sort of activity ... but it certainly has been setup for it, if he wants it ;)

whitecloud
2013-06-05, 23:07
im afraid next episode will have a significant character death of sort? pinion? melty? knowing urobutcher...

Jan-Poo
2013-06-06, 05:15
im afraid next episode will have a significant character death of sort? pinion? melty? knowing urobutcher...

The whalesquids went down surprisingly easily, the only way this could change if an enormous number of them come for the vengeance or if there is still intelligent Evolvers around.

Anyway between Melty and Pinion, I'd sat Melty would lead to the most suffering.
If death comes, Pinion must stay alive and know it's been all his fault.

I hope nothing will happen to Maita.

rocket
2013-06-06, 10:02
I think it could go either way at this point.

His interview seemed to indicate this anime would not be dominated by that sort of activity ... but it certainly has been setup for it, if he wants it ;)

Yeah I believed him last time he said that...

Endless Soul
2013-06-06, 12:48
im afraid next episode will have a significant character death of sort? pinion? melty? knowing urobutcher...

When Amy and Melty were saying their goodbyes, I definitely got a death vibe for Melty.

Zod I hope I'm wrong.

Endless "Please let me be wrong" Soul

Iron Maw
2013-06-06, 14:44
The whalesquids went down surprisingly easily, the only way this could change if an enormous number of them come for the vengeance or if there is still intelligent Evolvers around.

Anyway between Melty and Pinion, I'd sat Melty would lead to the most suffering.

Melty counts as a "significant" character now?

If death comes, Pinion must stay alive and know it's been all his fault.

Be it as it may this truth had to come out at one point. It's not as if the Whalesquids are innocent here anyway.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-06, 16:26
Melty counts as a "significant" character now?


I didn't say that. What matters is how much a death will affect significant characters.

Ledo only bonded with Amy and Bebel, so whether Pinion or Melty die it will make little difference for him.

For Amy however it would be worse to know her friend died rather than Pinion.

In addition if Pinion dies, people will just say that he brought it on himself. Conversely if Melty dies people will say that it's all Ledo's and Pinion's fault.
This could lead to a strain in the relationship between Amy and Ledo easily. It would be very hard for him to face Amy after bringing tragedy to her world even though she kept telling him he was wrong.


Anyway we are not even sure if anyone will die at all, so it could be just all pointless speculations.

Iron Maw
2013-06-06, 18:34
Gotcha, that makes more sense. Though, it does feel a little late for sort of development.

rocket
2013-06-07, 10:45
Anyway we are not even sure if anyone will die at all, so it could be just all pointless speculations.

Oh come now...

Of course someone will die next episode. This is Gen we're talking about. He's named this strawmen enemy the hideous in a drama about the actions versus image and what it really means to be human. And there is literally "blood in the water"...

askara
2013-06-07, 17:10
i wonder if all Hideauze come from human tho, i mean there is squid and human shape. still dont know why they attack human or technology for that matter.

anyway death to squidswhale!!!! Ledo is pretty much invincible if he go back above water

Metaneo
2013-06-07, 19:53
i wonder if all Hideauze come from human tho, i mean there is squid and human shape. still dont know why they attack human or technology for that matter.

anyway death to squidswhale!!!! Ledo is pretty much invincible if he go back above water

The Human-shape ones are probably juvenile Hideaze, their larval stage shows similarities to human infants so the one we saw was probably just young & curious.

Calca
2013-06-08, 23:45
Well, my body is dead but I suppose a detached head can live on.

Seiryuu
2013-06-09, 06:04
One thing I'm curious about: what will Ledo have to do to talk sense into Chamber? The alliance only knows the Hideauze as bizarre beings that appeared before them out of nowhere, and they made logical assumptions for a colony that likely knew little to nothing about how things went on Earth. If Chamber recognizes this, he may be able to recognize the probability that the alliance made a plausible mistake. Until Chamber reconciles the current data with his base programming though, Ledo is likely not going to be able to trust Chamber; after all, Chamber demonstrated there that he only needs Ledo for tactics, not decision making. With Ledo believing the documents he found, Chamber may just deem his pilot to be somehow compromised and thus cease to take ordrs from him.

LKK
2013-06-09, 07:01
The alliance only knows the Hideauze as bizarre beings that appeared before them out of nowhere, and they made logical assumptions for a colony that likely knew little to nothing about how things went on Earth.
About this statement, if you're talking about the general populace of the Alliance, then yeah, you're right. However, if you're talking about The Powers That Be of the Alliance, then I disagree. The Powers That Be of the Alliance know about the origins of the Hideauze. Why do I say this? Because Chamber refused to show the videos to Ledo because they contained classified information, remember? Ledo had to override Chamber's refusal. If the Hideauze history was truly unknown to the Alliance, then the information would not have been classified. You must know the information exists in order to classify it.

Guido
2013-06-09, 17:48
When I gave my impressions on either the sixth or seventh episodes, I was like sort of berated for giving out a one-sided theory on the Galactic Alliance versus Hideauze due to expressing a statement with so little information.

After watching this ninth episode, I should know better not to get carried away for what Ledo discovered and learned, since still more information is needed to corroborate.

The conclusion simply put is that as long as there's no other self-aware and rational species appearing to compete against humans, then Humanity itself is its apex predator and worst enemy.

Watching that footage from the times of the old civilization which likely dates from the Earth at the time of either the late 21st century or early 22nd century of the Common Era calendar, greatly reminded me of close plot points with the backstories for Wall-E film and the two "Second Renaissance" chapters of the Animatrix.


Piecing the information, the Earth of the ancient civilization times was afflicted by the meteorological effects of a New Ice Age; kind of sounds like coming from "The Day After Tomorrow" film.

Scientific progress in face of the dire crisis that humanity faced at that time made gigantic leaps resulting in biomechanical engineering on the human body and the genome manipulation.
Speculation: The worldwide scientific community gathered under one banner to develop their own citadel, which at the present timeline of the story are the remains of the ruins in which the whalesquids made their nest as home.

Speculation: That vision came to be either from world government fundings and/or giant corporate conglomerates or international enterprises.

However, many of the mainstream masses were opposed against the scientific community, which by that time defined themselves as "Evolvers", actions regarding experimentation on humans to find ways for humans themselves to evolve their present condition so to be capable of sustaining and surviving in space.
The idea precisely to leave the Earth and set eyes towards the space.

Speculation: I believe the Evolvers chose the biology of several marine creatures living or dwelling in the darkness of the oceans where the sunlight cannot reach due to the following reasons:
1. The Earth's sub-oceanic environment is one of the most cruel and harsh environments for organism to survive and let alone to live.
2. They took samples from the organisms most suitable to live under those terrible environments, and likely with the highest survival rates.

With their genome manipulation technique and biological engineering progress the Evolvers possibly or not created and transplanted symbionts into the bodies of human test subjects; the symbiont themselves could possibly be called or not the first generation of proto-Hideauze living from nanomachines.
The test subjects themselves will adapt perfectly to the deep aquatic environment to eventually become the first Hideauze-Human hybrids, but at that time they were possibly or not grateful to the Evolvers for their new condition.

The marine environment was chosen, because the ocean itself simulates some to many of the conditions in space, particularly the sub-oceanic environment which is immersed in infinite darkness.
The great differences, of course, lie that there is neither gravity nor oxygen in space itself whereas one has to be careful diving to extreme depths in the oceanic environment due to pressure density rising. Again, I could be wrong at that last statement.

Eventually, Evolvers brought their evolved subjects to release them in open space to test whether or not those proto-Hideauze/Humans hybrids were capable of surviving in space. Likely, the tests that they conducted at the beginning failed, until producing evolved Humans who eventually were successful to adapt into the vaccuum of space.

Speculation:
Meanwhile the protesters were having enough of the Evolvers experiments on people. Maybe or not all experiments conducted by the Evolvers were not necessarily atrocious or abusive. However, the idea cannot discarded either that individuals within the Evolvers abused their authority and power to actually carry out experiments and crimes against Humanity.

On the other hand, the protesters could or not necessarily be 100% innocent either. Some likely would have engaged at independent terrorist attacks, others would be forming organizations to combat the Evolvers either politically, financially, and/or philosophically, and a few would likely have engaged in slandering, extortion, and blackmailing against the Evolvers. That could be due that the opposition movement eventually gained momentum and international support.

However, the Evolvers also gained international support from other countries. So, the issue could have quickly escalated from an ideological confrontation to a cold war of sorts between the two opposed factions.

Facts from the footage:
The war broke out between the Continental Union and the Evolvers. A war that with coupled with the newly Ice Age would cripple Earth's human civilization further.

The war between the two factions escalated to the point that they brought it Earth's space orbit.

Later as the war continue to prolong its climax, the Evolvers or not found out from intel, classified information that the Continential Union was building a wormhole drive including a facility with a self-destruct mechanism.

Speculation: the Continental Union and the masses that support them intended to be the first ones to leave the Earth for space destroying the wormhole drive after crossing through it in order to leave the Evolvers and their supporters behind and stranded in a seemingly dying Earth, afflicted by the Ice Age.

Facts from footage: the Evolvers found out the plans from the Continental Union, and they attacked and seized the Wormhole drive. They turned the tide against the Continental Union, using the Wormhole Drive to depart Earth for good and leave for space taking most or all of their created technology with them.

While they also destroyed the Wormhole drive after crossing through it, leaving the Continental Union and their masses stranded and seemingly with no way to escape Earth; the Continental Union was thought to be destroyed along with the Earth due to Ice Age.

Facts and speculation from the storyline's present timeline:
- The human planetary colony of Avalon is one the Evolver's prime masterpiece creation or likely I think.

- The Gallactic Alliance possibly are the far, distant descendants of the Evolvers.

- Eventually, the Earth recovered from the Ice Age effects. The resulting ice caps that melt gave to a dramatic rise of the ocean floors, resulting likely or not that all the landmass became covered in water.

- However, the humans who were left stranded on Earth managed to survive though I do not know if only either a big or small number of their population survived. Nevertheless, the survivors adapted to their new abysmal environment at the beginning.

- Many generations and centuries later, the distant descendants of those surviving Earthling humans started to adapt to their new environment creating giant ships and arcs and living onboard them. They based off their new way of life, new communities, and new society living aboard the giant ships and living off the seas.

- Many centuries would have to pass in order for the knowledge of the ancient civilization and any survivors who remain to know about that knowledge and/or truth be erased from the minds of the survivor's descendants.

- The knowledge would remain just as myths, legends, and treasure for the inquiry of some of those Earthling descendants.

- On the other hand, the Galactic Alliance would have no knowledge of the existence of the Earth as nothing more than a myth due to their ancestors, the Evolvers, eventually sealing off the truth as classified information.

Speculation based on the facts disclosed in the ninth episode on the war between Galactic Alliance vs the Hideauze:

- When the Evolvers left the Earth and the Solar System for the frontier of space in order to find a new planet, at the beginning the Space Humans and the evolved Humans lived together under the same colony and working mutually for the benefit of another.

- Friction and splits would most likely have ocurred between the two factions when the non-evolved, space Humans started to discriminate and see the evolved Humans no longer as people but like animals. They could have abused their authority on them to make the evolved Humans do all the heavy and dangerous work and missions.
Also, some of the evolved Humans would likely have begun to see themselves as more powerful than their non-evolved peers due to their new body condition and form, which gave them lots of freedom to move freely and live in space without the need of ships and tecnology. Those few evolved Humans could likely or not began seeing themselves no longer as people but as new species trascending the limits and bounds of the human species.

- Frictions grow even further out of control and cracks formed within the new Space society that the Evolvers envisioned at first. Fights and brawls eventually led to both groups killing each other. But, the greatest fear for the non-Evolved ones came truth when the Evolved ones became too terrifyingly powerful for them control. Likely or not, then the Space Human ended seeing the Evolved Humans as a threat to their existence, and likely initiated a genocidal campaign against the Evolved Ones.

- The Evolved Ones fended off for their survival seeing that the Space Humans respect them neither as people nor as living beings. Eventually, the evolved Humans escaped the colony and ventured into space forming their separate colonies and their new species; the Evolved Humans further evolved leaving behind for good their humanoid and quasi-human body forms, and instead adapting into new beastal and terrifying forms to survive into space.

- However, the Evolved Humans had within their bodies a pressing limitation that would continue to jeopardize their existence, and that is they could only survive by eating from nanomachines to sustain their bodies.

- Because the matter became that one of survival, clashes against the space Human colony would become inevitable due that they had the needed energy sources based off nanomachines for the Evolved Humans to feed on.

- Clashing against the Evolved Humans in a space sea of carnage and witnessing their beastial forms, the space Humans brand them as Hideauze.

- Of course, those amongst the space Human colony knew about the origin of the Hideauze and their real nature, but they sealed off the truth as classified information just like their ancestors did so about the Earth.

- To fight off against the Hideauz, the space Humans had no other choice but to make even titanic leaps on scientific progress. Hence, at the storyline's present timeline:
1. It brough the formation of complex space human civilization known as the Galactic Alliance with Avalon being borned as the pinnacle of their master knowledge on technology, and also brought as well sophisticated A.I. systems and combat units such as the Machine Caliber ("Chamber"), and breeding of genetically engineered human soldiers ("Ledo") to operate the A.I. for combat uses against the Hideauze.

Speculation based off facts revealed in the ninth episode about the relationship between the Earthling humans and the Earthling whale-squids:

- A fact is that not all the Evolved humans made it to the spaceship that carried the Evolvers into space. The fact that there are whalesquids (Hideauze) in Earth at the story's present timeline suggests that some of them were left stranded.

- It is likely or not that the stranded, non-evolved Humans would have been terrified about the aspect of those evolved Humans who were stranded as well. But, as they have to endure against a new Ice Age cataclysm using crippled technology with a remnant of civilization that continued to be razed and buried under the ice, the issue that matter most for those humans was survival.

- The stranded humans and the evolved humans drift separately from each other communities adapting into two different environments in the same planet afflicted by the same cataclysm.

- Both groups managed to survive and producing offspring.
1. The Earthling humans eventually managed to salvage some part of their technology to create the titan ships and arcs, as well as the Yunboro, in order for them to survive by traveling the new seas of the Earth onboard the ships.

2. The Earthling Evolved ones further evolved from their human forms out of need to adapt themselves into their oceanic and sub-oceanic environment; they became the apex species of their marine ecosystem. However, not necessarily all the evolved ones discarded their humanoid forms.

3. The first contact between the seafarer humans and the evolved ones is unknown for me to comment. However, what's clear is that the Earthling humans gave them the name "Whale squids" and from experience learn Not to tread, disturb, and invade whale squid territory, as they were performing their underwater salvage operation.

4. As long as the humans gave them no reason to be provoked, the whalesquids would leave the ships alone and in peace and continue to live their lives.

5. It is likely that the Earth's glowing bugs are actually the result of sentient nano-machines that adapted to the changes in the Earth's environment and ecosystem.

6. Because most of the Earthling humans in the story's present timeline is a society that values cooperation for living and survival rather than competition through fighting for resources, species like the glowing bugs and their underwater ecosystems are left untouched.

7. Because there's an abundant source of glowing bugs likely or not all over the planet, the whalesquids feed on them without problem and have no need to attack the human ships except if the humans either provoke them or invade their territory.

8. Basing from Chamber's conjecture, Earth's whalesquids live a sort of complacent lifecycle in which they have experienced very few external adversities, unlike their space Hideauze peer which are at constant war against space Humans due to survive extermination.

molitar
2013-06-09, 23:28
But so many are leaving out the major factor that prove the evolvers were hateful beyond respite! They had bodies that were not affected by space. They had no reason to follow the Alliance except to continue a battle! If you can go anywhere in space and were hated by the other race WHY would you follow the other race except to fight! They supposedly evolved but I believe it was more devolved they became hateful spiteful monsters with the intelligence of animals and they followed the humans to only do battle!

If they were really evolved they would of headed into space in the opposite direction far from man and would of had the prosperity they supposedly wanted. But the truth of the matter is they de-evolved and became aggressive and the only way they knew to live was to fight so they pursued man far out into the outer reaches of space!

FateAnomaly
2013-06-10, 06:51
I simply could not understand why anyone would want to evolve into squids spacefaring or not.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-11, 06:08
Piecing the information, the Earth of the ancient civilization times was afflicted by the meteorological effects of a New Ice Age; kind of sounds like coming from "The Day After Tomorrow" film.

Scientific progress in face of the dire crisis that humanity faced at that time made gigantic leaps resulting in biomechanical engineering on the human body and the genome manipulation.
Speculation: The worldwide scientific community gathered under one banner to develop their own citadel, which at the present timeline of the story are the remains of the ruins in which the whalesquids made their nest as home.

Speculation: That vision came to be either from world government fundings and/or giant corporate conglomerates or international enterprises.

However, many of the mainstream masses were opposed against the scientific community, which by that time defined themselves as "Evolvers", actions regarding experimentation on humans to find ways for humans themselves to evolve their present condition so to be capable of sustaining and surviving in space.
The idea precisely to leave the Earth and set eyes towards the space.

Speculation: I believe the Evolvers chose the biology of several marine creatures living or dwelling in the darkness of the oceans where the sunlight cannot reach due to the following reasons:
1. The Earth's sub-oceanic environment is one of the most cruel and harsh environments for organism to survive and let alone to live.
2. They took samples from the organisms most suitable to live under those terrible environments, and likely with the highest survival rates.

With their genome manipulation technique and biological engineering progress the Evolvers possibly or not created and transplanted symbionts into the bodies of human test subjects; the symbiont themselves could possibly be called or not the first generation of proto-Hideauze living from nanomachines.
The test subjects themselves will adapt perfectly to the deep aquatic environment to eventually become the first Hideauze-Human hybrids, but at that time they were possibly or not grateful to the Evolvers for their new condition.

The marine environment was chosen, because the ocean itself simulates some to many of the conditions in space, particularly the sub-oceanic environment which is immersed in infinite darkness.
The great differences, of course, lie that there is neither gravity nor oxygen in space itself whereas one has to be careful diving to extreme depths in the oceanic environment due to pressure density rising. Again, I could be wrong at that last statement.

Eventually, Evolvers brought their evolved subjects to release them in open space to test whether or not those proto-Hideauze/Humans hybrids were capable of surviving in space. Likely, the tests that they conducted at the beginning failed, until producing evolved Humans who eventually were successful to adapt into the vaccuum of space.

Speculation:
Meanwhile the protesters were having enough of the Evolvers experiments on people. Maybe or not all experiments conducted by the Evolvers were not necessarily atrocious or abusive. However, the idea cannot discarded either that individuals within the Evolvers abused their authority and power to actually carry out experiments and crimes against Humanity.

On the other hand, the protesters could or not necessarily be 100% innocent either. Some likely would have engaged at independent terrorist attacks, others would be forming organizations to combat the Evolvers either politically, financially, and/or philosophically, and a few would likely have engaged in slandering, extortion, and blackmailing against the Evolvers. That could be due that the opposition movement eventually gained momentum and international support.

However, the Evolvers also gained international support from other countries. So, the issue could have quickly escalated from an ideological confrontation to a cold war of sorts between the two opposed factions.

Facts from the footage:
The war broke out between the Continental Union and the Evolvers. A war that with coupled with the newly Ice Age would cripple Earth's human civilization further.

The war between the two factions escalated to the point that they brought it Earth's space orbit.

Later as the war continue to prolong its climax, the Evolvers or not found out from intel, classified information that the Continential Union was building a wormhole drive including a facility with a self-destruct mechanism.

Speculation: the Continental Union and the masses that support them intended to be the first ones to leave the Earth for space destroying the wormhole drive after crossing through it in order to leave the Evolvers and their supporters behind and stranded in a seemingly dying Earth, afflicted by the Ice Age.

Facts from footage: the Evolvers found out the plans from the Continental Union, and they attacked and seized the Wormhole drive. They turned the tide against the Continental Union, using the Wormhole Drive to depart Earth for good and leave for space taking most or all of their created technology with them.

While they also destroyed the Wormhole drive after crossing through it, leaving the Continental Union and their masses stranded and seemingly with no way to escape Earth; the Continental Union was thought to be destroyed along with the Earth due to Ice Age.

Facts and speculation from the storyline's present timeline:
- The human planetary colony of Avalon is one the Evolver's prime masterpiece creation or likely I think.

- The Gallactic Alliance possibly are the far, distant descendants of the Evolvers.

- Eventually, the Earth recovered from the Ice Age effects. The resulting ice caps that melt gave to a dramatic rise of the ocean floors, resulting likely or not that all the landmass became covered in water.

- However, the humans who were left stranded on Earth managed to survive though I do not know if only either a big or small number of their population survived. Nevertheless, the survivors adapted to their new abysmal environment at the beginning.

- Many generations and centuries later, the distant descendants of those surviving Earthling humans started to adapt to their new environment creating giant ships and arcs and living onboard them. They based off their new way of life, new communities, and new society living aboard the giant ships and living off the seas.

- Many centuries would have to pass in order for the knowledge of the ancient civilization and any survivors who remain to know about that knowledge and/or truth be erased from the minds of the survivor's descendants.

- The knowledge would remain just as myths, legends, and treasure for the inquiry of some of those Earthling descendants.

- On the other hand, the Galactic Alliance would have no knowledge of the existence of the Earth as nothing more than a myth due to their ancestors, the Evolvers, eventually sealing off the truth as classified information.

Speculation based on the facts disclosed in the ninth episode on the war between Galactic Alliance vs the Hideauze:

- When the Evolvers left the Earth and the Solar System for the frontier of space in order to find a new planet, at the beginning the Space Humans and the evolved Humans lived together under the same colony and working mutually for the benefit of another.

- Friction and splits would most likely have ocurred between the two factions when the non-evolved, space Humans started to discriminate and see the evolved Humans no longer as people but like animals. They could have abused their authority on them to make the evolved Humans do all the heavy and dangerous work and missions.
Also, some of the evolved Humans would likely have begun to see themselves as more powerful than their non-evolved peers due to their new body condition and form, which gave them lots of freedom to move freely and live in space without the need of ships and tecnology. Those few evolved Humans could likely or not began seeing themselves no longer as people but as new species trascending the limits and bounds of the human species.

- Frictions grow even further out of control and cracks formed within the new Space society that the Evolvers envisioned at first. Fights and brawls eventually led to both groups killing each other. But, the greatest fear for the non-Evolved ones came truth when the Evolved ones became too terrifyingly powerful for them control. Likely or not, then the Space Human ended seeing the Evolved Humans as a threat to their existence, and likely initiated a genocidal campaign against the Evolved Ones.

- The Evolved Ones fended off for their survival seeing that the Space Humans respect them neither as people nor as living beings. Eventually, the evolved Humans escaped the colony and ventured into space forming their separate colonies and their new species; the Evolved Humans further evolved leaving behind for good their humanoid and quasi-human body forms, and instead adapting into new beastal and terrifying forms to survive into space.

- However, the Evolved Humans had within their bodies a pressing limitation that would continue to jeopardize their existence, and that is they could only survive by eating from nanomachines to sustain their bodies.

- Because the matter became that one of survival, clashes against the space Human colony would become inevitable due that they had the needed energy sources based off nanomachines for the Evolved Humans to feed on.

- Clashing against the Evolved Humans in a space sea of carnage and witnessing their beastial forms, the space Humans brand them as Hideauze.

- Of course, those amongst the space Human colony knew about the origin of the Hideauze and their real nature, but they sealed off the truth as classified information just like their ancestors did so about the Earth.

- To fight off against the Hideauz, the space Humans had no other choice but to make even titanic leaps on scientific progress. Hence, at the storyline's present timeline:
1. It brough the formation of complex space human civilization known as the Galactic Alliance with Avalon being borned as the pinnacle of their master knowledge on technology, and also brought as well sophisticated A.I. systems and combat units such as the Machine Caliber ("Chamber"), and breeding of genetically engineered human soldiers ("Ledo") to operate the A.I. for combat uses against the Hideauze.

Speculation based off facts revealed in the ninth episode about the relationship between the Earthling humans and the Earthling whale-squids:

- A fact is that not all the Evolved humans made it to the spaceship that carried the Evolvers into space. The fact that there are whalesquids (Hideauze) in Earth at the story's present timeline suggests that some of them were left stranded.

- It is likely or not that the stranded, non-evolved Humans would have been terrified about the aspect of those evolved Humans who were stranded as well. But, as they have to endure against a new Ice Age cataclysm using crippled technology with a remnant of civilization that continued to be razed and buried under the ice, the issue that matter most for those humans was survival.

- The stranded humans and the evolved humans drift separately from each other communities adapting into two different environments in the same planet afflicted by the same cataclysm.

- Both groups managed to survive and producing offspring.
1. The Earthling humans eventually managed to salvage some part of their technology to create the titan ships and arcs, as well as the Yunboro, in order for them to survive by traveling the new seas of the Earth onboard the ships.

2. The Earthling Evolved ones further evolved from their human forms out of need to adapt themselves into their oceanic and sub-oceanic environment; they became the apex species of their marine ecosystem. However, not necessarily all the evolved ones discarded their humanoid forms.

3. The first contact between the seafarer humans and the evolved ones is unknown for me to comment. However, what's clear is that the Earthling humans gave them the name "Whale squids" and from experience learn Not to tread, disturb, and invade whale squid territory, as they were performing their underwater salvage operation.

4. As long as the humans gave them no reason to be provoked, the whalesquids would leave the ships alone and in peace and continue to live their lives.

5. It is likely that the Earth's glowing bugs are actually the result of sentient nano-machines that adapted to the changes in the Earth's environment and ecosystem.

6. Because most of the Earthling humans in the story's present timeline is a society that values cooperation for living and survival rather than competition through fighting for resources, species like the glowing bugs and their underwater ecosystems are left untouched.

7. Because there's an abundant source of glowing bugs likely or not all over the planet, the whalesquids feed on them without problem and have no need to attack the human ships except if the humans either provoke them or invade their territory.

8. Basing from Chamber's conjecture, Earth's whalesquids live a sort of complacent lifecycle in which they have experienced very few external adversities, unlike their space Hideauze peer which are at constant war against space Humans due to survive extermination.


Dude you got some wrong.

One there is no World Government as the UN still existed.

Two the Evolvers are a private venture as they don't rely on states as its founder doesn't like regulation. They are more less the Church of Scientology with Mad Science.

Three the Continental Union became the Galactic Alliance as their propaganda has show not only are they pro-human but purists. Going by the LN description of their society it is akin to Gilbert Durandal's Destiny Plan. Where everyone is cog in the greater machine. They have Eugenics but no genetic engineering manipulation.

summers
2013-07-22, 00:59
usually i would like this kind of reveal but the problem was the whole sudden transformation to make them look more human. I looked at the previous images of the whalesquid, the do not look humanoid at all, the nest children did though.

Then after the reveal, they all looked human and had cute little baby eyes, and clear outline of a human body.