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monir
2013-06-01, 00:11
Welcome to the discussion thread for Suisei no Gargantia, Episode 9.

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bastek66
2013-06-02, 08:31
Hideuze were humans
http://i.imgur.com/gmxfgAC.gif
My mind is full of fuck.

MisaoFan
2013-06-02, 08:37
The new chapter opens up with Ledo discovering what's inside the sea, and learns the secret behind the ruined civilization. We get a glimpse of flashback showing on how Pinion's brother gets killed off during an Hideauze attack. Around halfway, we are shown with a 10 minutes of explanation on how the Hideauze were, and why the Earth gets significiantly lost with everything but sea coverage due to the sudden world destruction. At the end, Ledo encounters one of the first Hideauze only to realize without thought that he destroy one and screams! Too bad Amy felt so worried and ever since two episodes ago, it's sad to see Ledo not having much interactions with Amy lately and I really hope they'll get one before the final episode. I was left with nothing but sadness, and around the next episode or so, Saya may probably say some of her last words with Amy but the chances of her dying are surprinsingly moderate, and let's hope that the show ends on a good note!

Kiavik
2013-06-02, 08:37
I said "Holy Shit" out loud.

Principalities
2013-06-02, 09:29
Towards the end, it looked like Chamber mercilessly killed the human like Hideauze without Ledo's permission....

konart
2013-06-02, 09:43
Oh, what a nice Blue Submarine No. 6 we've got here!

mikeomni
2013-06-02, 10:21
Oh wow! Damn, that guess was right!

Shinji103
2013-06-02, 12:25
Towards the end, it looked like Chamber mercilessly killed the human like Hideauze without Ledo's permission....He did, but that was because he's programmed to kill them. He isn't entirely capable of suddenly thinking "Oh wait, they're human" and not kill them just because he saw a video contradicting everything he's been programmed to view as fact.

But yeah, "OH S***" revelation. :twitch:

How long is this series supposed to be, anyway? Episode 9 seems pretty early for such a plot-shattering development, unless this is a one-cour show. If this is supposed to be a 24-26 episode series, it means we've got some really serious "OH S***" moments on the way. :uhoh:

Algent
2013-06-02, 12:34
Oh, what a nice Blue Submarine No. 6 we've got here!

When I saw the human-looking embryos I knew something was off but...
This, holy sh*t I absolutely didn't saw it coming, it's the biggest twist I see in an anime in a while. :eyespin:

If they wanted to make us empathize in the "crushing" scene just after, it was more than successful :upset:.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-02, 12:36
From relentlessness (http://www.relentlessness.com/blog/anime-episode-counts/): "Suisei no Gargantia (13 TV Episodes + 2 BD-exclusive Episodes, 3 BD-Boxes, 5×3)"

Booom! Plot gets blown up. I felt as if Ledo was convinced emotionally a bit too easily, but we shall see. Happy ending: he integrates with Gargantia and he and Amy live happily ever after. Tragedy: how will he exculpate himself from killing all those evolved humans? By dying? Has he destroyed the future for Gargantia and the others? Will the local Hideauze be able to realize that he is not a killer any more?

Will he have to power Chamber down, to avoid it killing more of the evolved humans? Perhaps the story from here on is Ledo against Chamber.

Anyway, this is a development I did not anticipate. That they might be friendly aliens, I did. But evolved humans? Not in my mind.

By the way, I expect a happy ending by ep13, with the two BD episodes like OVAs showing life for LedoxAmy. But I have happily been surprised already, so who knows.

andyjay729
2013-06-02, 12:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jz7rFuZZZc

But seriously, I think this episode should at least partially restore the show's reputation in the haters' eyes.

Also...

You didn't ask, Ledo (http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=615&tbm=isch&tbnid=ROFLn3aTTZE1fM:&imgrefurl=http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/kyubey&docid=XvxIJ8B-41E09M&imgurl=http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/190/353/puella_magi_madoka_magica-08-incubator-kyubey-red_eyes.jpg%253F1319427063&w=680&h=383&ei=XIKrUffjH4iXiALWy4G4Bw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:7,s:0,i:104&iact=rc&dur=2522&page=1&tbnh=168&tbnw=299&start=0&ndsp=18&tx=254&ty=51).

aohige
2013-06-02, 12:42
From relentlessness (http://www.relentlessness.com/blog/anime-episode-counts/): "Suisei no Gargantia (13 TV Episodes + 2 BD-exclusive Episodes, 3 BD-Boxes, 5×3)"

Booom! Plot gets blown up. I felt as if Ledo was convinced emotionally a bit too easily, but we shall see. Happy ending: he integrates with Gargantia and he and Amy live happily ever after. Tragedy: how will he exculpate himself from killing all those evolved humans? By dying? Has he destroyed the future for Gargantia and the others? Will the local Hideauze be able to realize that he is not a killer any more?

Will he have to power Chamber down, to avoid it killing more of the evolved humans? Perhaps the story from here on is Ledo against Chamber.

Anyway, this is a development I did not anticipate. That they might be friendly aliens, I did. But evolved humans? Not in my mind.

By the way, I expect a happy ending by ep13, with the two BD episodes like OVAs showing life for LedoxAmy. But I have happily been surprised already, so who knows.

Hmm, from what I gathered from the episode was, these Whale-Squids are not evolved humans, rather, they're the descendants of the artificially created beings that when combined with humans, become the space-Hideauze.

There seems to be three different species involved here.

Humans - homosapiens
Whale-Squids - the "Evolveds" created by humans, that can adapt to any environment
Hideauze - Human genes combined with the Evolveds, and set out to conquer space. In conflict with old human race over territorial conflict.

Whale-squids looking somewhat humanoid is probably because they were created to combine with human genes in the first place.

andyjay729
2013-06-02, 12:44
I was actually thinking of the evolved human theory as soon as someone did a closeup of a squid in Episode 7. But even so, the filmstrip was pretty gut-wrenching, as was Ledo's scream when Chamber crushed the squidling on his own. "You used my hands to kill him!"

PS, you really should use spoiler tags about the "Squidlent Green is people" revelation for now.

PPS: Knowing that Gen is a Stephen King fan, was anyone else thinking of "The Mist" in how the area is misty, and they're fighting tentacled monsters?

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-06-02, 12:44
I guess we get ourselves “Urobuchi Gen did it again”-moment this episode :p.

aohige
2013-06-02, 12:48
I was actually thinking of the evolved human theory as soon as someone did a closeup of a squid in Episode 7. But even so, the filmstrip was pretty gut-wrenching, as was Ledo's scream when Chamber crushed the squidling on his own. "You used my hands to kill him!"

PS, you really should use spoiler tags about the "Squidlent Green is people" revelation for now.

PPS: Knowing that Gen is a Stephen King fan, was anyone else thinking of "The Mist" in how the area is misty, and they're fighting tentacled monsters?


..... why would you need to spoiler tag about content of an episode that already aired, in the thread about the said episode?

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-02, 12:51
What is that whalesquid at the end? Failed experiment?
Totally looks different from the rest of the whalesquids.

There's a scene at the end of the video where one of those whalesquids approaches a diver and has the caption "Elaine Matsumoto" appear next to it. The name of the guy whose face we see on the various ocean- and space-deployed whalesquids is Matsumoto, and we see his wife and daughter, so presumably one of them was changed into the humanoid whalesquid.

Which raises the question of whether the whalesquid of Gargantia's time are able to create the humanoid whalesquid on their own or... if people from the surface are being merged into whalesquid—and in that case, whether that's voluntary or not.

Well, that thoroughly answers the question posed by the freeze-frame bonus whalesquid butt shot from a couple of episodes ago.

Ledo/Chamber conflict looms. It was interesting that Chamber would defer to Ledo wanting to see the video, but went completely autonomous with regard to squishing Ika Musume (nod to the image thread here).

Next issue: We know that the Evolvers planned to go through the wormhole gate and then blow it up, but the Continental Union managed to get around that somehow (and became the Galactic Alliance). Obvious remaining question is whether the gate really did get blown up, because that part is left off of the end of the video.

Helius
2013-06-02, 13:01
Well I'll be. I suspected the Hideauze were created by humans, but I never expected them to be actual humans!

Bravo, Urobutcher, bravo.

ookamigirl
2013-06-02, 13:04
The underwater fight was interesting to watch.
Ledo was tearing them apart with ease.
Pinion's greed/personal vendetta was a dangerous one.
Don't think it's worth pissing off the whale squids..
The vast amount of new info left me speechless.
OMG the history behind everything was shocking and disturbing.
Awesome episode this time!

Revan21
2013-06-02, 13:04
Episode 9

I have to admit I did not see this development coming.
Sure, it was easy to guess that it was humanity who created the Hideauze but to think that they were actually modified humans too. Totally unbelievable, if you ask me. No one in their right mind, or at least not many would agree to turn themself into sem hideous creature just so they can live in outer space, not even on the brink of extinction.

And the irony is that the Galactic Fleet has already proven that humans can live in space for centuries, so that leaves the Hideauze experiment an entirely unnecessary one :P

Entravity
2013-06-02, 13:05
Now I can't wait to see the ending Urobuchi has made. Worth the average few episodes from before.

I did expect them to be experiments, but for them to be actually human and for the past to be like that... That's intense.

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 13:25
Bravo, Urobuchi.

How intelligent are the whalesquids? They were once human but has their
intelligence regressed over time?

Also this makes me think the eugenics aspect of the GA is an alternative to the genetic manipulation of the Evolvers. They need only the best because the best will breed the best and will ensure survival in space. Weak offspring are "disposed of" so that their weak genes don't propagate to future generations. The war not only protects their ideals but it shifts the wheat: the best come back, have kids and create a next generation of fighters.

Both sides are pretty scary, imho

Libros
2013-06-02, 13:30
Episode 9

I have to admit I did not see this development coming.
Sure, it was easy to guess that it was humanity who created the Hideauze but to think that they were actually modified humans too. Totally unbelievable, if you ask me. No one in their right mind, or at least not many would agree to turn themself into sem hideous creature just so they can live in outer space, not even on the brink of extinction.

And the irony is that the Galactic Fleet has already proven that humans can live in space for centuries, so that leaves the Hideauze experiment an entirely unnecessary one :P

Not totally unnecessary. The Hideauze get to explore space without a Mech/space suit & apparently since they're supposed to last for long stretches of time in space, they may live longer than regular humans too?

Mangaka-chan
2013-06-02, 13:31
Holy c!@#, we just got a load of PLOT dropped on us. o_0

Helius
2013-06-02, 13:33
Not totally unnecessary. The Hideauze get to explore space without a Mech/space suit & apparently since they're supposed to last for long stretches of time in space, they may live longer than regular humans too?

All at the "expense" of becoming what they've become...

mikeomni
2013-06-02, 13:36
..snip...
Which raises the question of whether the whalesquid of Gargantia's time are able to create the humanoid whalesquid on their own or... if people from the surface are being merged into whalesquid—and in that case, whether that's voluntary or not.

Well, that thoroughly answers the question posed by the freeze-frame bonus whalesquid butt shot from a couple of episodes ago.

Ledo/Chamber conflict looms. It was interesting that Chamber would defer to Ledo wanting to see the video, but went completely autonomous with regard to squishing Ika Musume (nod to the image thread here).

Next issue: We know that the Evolvers planned to go through the wormhole gate and then blow it up, but the Continental Union managed to get around that somehow (and became the Galactic Alliance). Obvious remaining question is whether the gate really did get blown up, because that part is left off of the end of the video.

I had a thought GA vs Hideauze was a human against human turf war, but that was like rank 10 on my list of possibilities. Mind blown!

Now what would be even more mind blowing is if the burial at sea from the previous episode has a link to the Whalesquid's reproduction. Maybe Grandpa Fairlock gets reborn as a whalesquid ... or at least his body does.

Libros
2013-06-02, 13:36
All at the "expense" of becoming what they've become...

That is true.

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 13:38
I seriously doubt the GA does cloning and/or genetic manipulation now because it'd be too close to what the Evolvers did. This isn't just defeat all monsters; this is a friggin holy/race/tribe war against people who gave up their humanity.

Revan21
2013-06-02, 13:39
All at the "expense" of becoming what they've become...

Not worth it.

I, and I would suspect most of humanity, would rather die on our backwater planet than become spaceslugs :twitch:

Awrya
2013-06-02, 13:41
So the Galactic Alliance is the Evolver faction and the Hideauzu are the ones that wanted to leave the rest of humanity behind?
Episode with shocking information.

Do Hideauze still have human intelligence and are capable of communication? Maybe the reason earth language was regarded as an ancient language is because they tried to prevent any communication between Hideauze and their soldiers and introduced a new language?
Do they even remember why conflict has started?

Just wondering, did Ledo kill the brood mother of that nest?

apotheosis
2013-06-02, 13:42
Great episode after some doldroms in the sea of Gargantia. No foreshadowing of humans ~= whalesquid, so that was quite a shock!

The battle ... the flashback ... the discovery all added up to the tension and intrigueing SF premise that I looked forward to after episode 1. Ledo's "oh noes, don't kill that whalesquid!!!" was a bit interesting of a total reverse course at the end, but it shows he has at least changed some due to the time spent on Gargantia & will consider things himself instead of just believing the official line. I'd have expected him to be a bit more skeptical or need more time to consider whether it was true or not .. but it made a fine cliffhanger ending.

This episode raises a ton of questions:

Have the space Hideauze lost what it means to be human as much as/more than the Galactic Alliance? They don't seem particularly intelligent, communicative or empathic in episode 1. I suppose they could have bred different classes that have more/less self awareness though. Maybe we are just seeing the battle drones?

How intelligent are the Hideauze that are on Earth? If they were human-merged, wouldn't they want to communicate with the peaceful seeming humans left on Earth? (or maybe this was tried and failed and we'll get another flashback for it).

The other possibility is that these Hideauze are not human merged & are just intelligent helpers, like the ones shown early in the video. If that is the case, maybe they are around the old lab because it's an ancestral spawning ground.

The Hideauze that was crushed at the end though, looked exactly like the one in the video (which it implied was human merged) ... but it didn't seem to try to communicate at all. One would think if it was human merged, it wouldn't just wander into Chamber's range after their whole base was annihilated?

Also .. they showed all kinds of Hideauze & clearly stated the Evolvers were into genetic modification, so clearly they continued to change their genetics as they evolved on earth and in space. So ... why did the genetic test come back "identical" for modern space Hideaze vs Whalesquiid??

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 13:42
So the Galactic Alliance is the Evolver faction and the Hideauzu are the ones that wanted to leave the rest of humanity behind?
Episode with shocking information.

Do Hideauze still have human intelligence and are capable of communication? Maybe the reason earth language was regarded as an ancient language is because they tried to prevent any communication between Hideauze and their soldiers and introduced a new language?
Do they even remember why conflict has started?

Just wondering, did Ledo kill the brood mother of that nest?
I thought the evolvers are the ones who turned into Hideauze?

Theo
2013-06-02, 13:47
So the Hideous are (a little) sympathetic, but I also liked they were portrayed as conquerors as well and not just generic "we misunderstood them waaaah".

There is no peace amongst the stars.

Libros
2013-06-02, 13:52
I thought the evolvers are the ones who turned into Hideauze?

That's right. Also, am I the only one wondering how that huge Hideauze that Ledo fought was made? I mean, the way Elaine & the other whalesquids looked like compared to it. It has, what look like eggs in it's head?:confused::twitch:. Speaking of Elaine, why did she still look so human and not squid-like like the rest of the Hideauze and Whale squids.

Mangaka-chan
2013-06-02, 13:53
Have the space Hideauze lost what it means to be human as much as/more than the Galactic Alliance? They don't seem particularly intelligent, communicative or empathic in episode 1. I suppose they could have bred different classes that have more/less self awareness though. Maybe we are just seeing the battle drones?

How intelligent are the Hideauze that are on Earth? If they were human-merged, wouldn't they want to communicate with the peaceful seeming humans left on Earth? (or maybe this was tried and failed and we'll get another flashback for it).

The other possibility is that these Hideauze are not human merged & are just intelligent helpers, like the ones shown early in the video. If that is the case, maybe they are around the old lab because it's an ancestral spawning ground.

The Hideauze that was crushed at the end though, looked exactly like the one in the video (which it implied was human merged) ... but it didn't seem to try to communicate at all. One would think if it was human merged, it wouldn't just wander into Chamber's range after their whole base was annihilated?

Also .. they showed all kinds of Hideauze & clearly stated the Evolvers were into genetic modification, so clearly they continued to change their genetics as they evolved on earth and in space. So ... why did the genetic test come back "identical" for modern space Hideaze vs Whalesquiid??

I think the space and the ocean Hideaze are one species but are different breeds adapted to different environments, much like how dogs have evolved to handle different environments and tasks.

As for why the whalesquids can't communicate with humans, maybe the genetic merger process changed their physiology to such an extent that mutually comprehensible communication between humans and whalesquid are no longer possible? That might also explain why the GA and Hideaze cannot negotiate with one another, because the avenue of communication was so dissimilar.

I don't think the squidling that Chamber crushed was a recent merger between a human and a whalesquid. It's shown that the whalesquid go through embryogenesis with distinct vertebrate-like characteristics, so the squidling is just a juvenile whalesquid who has yet to fully acquire the gastropod-like features of an adult. This is actually a point I really like about the episode, to show that even though humans and whalesquids look very different now on the embryonic level things still harken back to a time before the evolutionary lines diverged.

aohige
2013-06-02, 14:00
I think the space and the ocean Hideaze are one species but are different breeds adapted to different environments, much like how dogs have evolved to handle different environments and tasks.

As for why the whalesquids can't communicate with humans, maybe the genetic merger process changed their physiology to such an extent that mutually comprehensible communication between humans and whalesquid are no longer possible? That might also explain why the GA and Hideaze cannot negotiate with one another, because the avenue of communication was so dissimilar.

I don't think the squidling that Chamber crushed was a recent merger between a human and a whalesquid. It's shown that the whalesquid go through embryogenesis with distinct vertebrate-like characteristics, so the squidling is just a juvenile whalesquid who has yet to fully acquire the gastropod-like features of an adult. This is actually a point I really like about the episode, to show that even though humans and whalesquids look very different now on the embryonic level things still harken back to a time before the evolutionary lines diverged.


Well, the fact that they breed on the exact same place where the prototype squids were researched, I do not think they are the exact same species as Hidearuze.

The squid-girl that got squashed at the end looked just like the prototypes in the videos.
The "Whale-Squids" are most likely, IMO, the descendants of the prototypes, created at the laboratory.

The Space-squids a.k.a Hideauze are a hybrid of humans and the above creature. Matsumoto was the first of its kind, and obviously highly intelligent and galactically territorial.

The whale-squids may have some human genes to make them "adaptive" to humans (since their purpose is to merge with humans to become the Evolvers), but probably lack human intelligence due to them being, well, mostly super-squids gene. :heh:

apotheosis
2013-06-02, 14:00
I think the space and the ocean Hideaze are one species but are different breeds adapted to different environments, much like how dogs have evolved to handle different environments and tasks.

I agree, but the different breeds of dogs are not 100% geneticaly identical. Even individual dogs of the same breed are not 100% genetically identical. I guess they just meant the creatures had some sort of Hideaze genetic marker, rather than really being identical *shrugs*


As for why the whalesquids can't communicate with humans, maybe the genetic merger process changed their physiology to such an extent that mutually comprehensible communication between humans and whalesquid are no longer possible? That might also explain why the GA and Hideaze cannot negotiate with one another, because the avenue of communication was so dissimilar.


That seems like a good explanation. But you'd also think space is vast enough, that they could just go separate ways? Particularly if the Hideaze can live anywhere in space without the need for suits/etc .. I guess the GA's tech is one of the best sources of "nutrients" for the Hideaze though.


I don't think the squidling that Chamber crushed was a recent merger between a human and a whalesquid. It's shown that the whalesquid go through embryogenesis with distinct vertebrate-like characteristics, so the squidling is just a juvenile whalesquid who has yet to fully acquire the gastropod-like features of an adult. This is actually a point I really like about the episode, to show that even though humans and whalesquids look very different now on the embryonic level things still harken back to a time before the evolutionary lines diverged.

Good point. It would be really like to find a juvenile around the babies too, I suppose.

mikeomni
2013-06-02, 14:01
So the Hideous are (a little) sympathetic, but I also liked they were portrayed as conquerors as well and not just generic "we misunderstood them waaaah".

There is no peace amongst the stars.

The conflict between the GA and Hideauze in space probably changed way beyond the original conflict in beliefs. They're also competing for the same resources and they've both lost some of their humanity. In their hate and desire to survive they chased each other across the stars for hundreds of years. On one side they've made themselves alien. On the other they've formed a draconian society fueled by genetic intolerance that would make the Nazis proud. The only "true" humans left are those that live on Earth. They are flawed, technologically backward and trapped into subsistence living but moral and happy. It makes the watcher think about which path for humanity they would choose.

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 14:03
The conflict between the GA and Hideauze in space probably changed way beyond the original conflict in beliefs. They're also competing for the same resources and they've both lost some of their humanity. In their hate and desire to survive they chased each other across the stars for hundreds of years. On one side they've made themselves alien. On the other they've formed a draconian society fueled by genetic intolerance that would make the Nazis proud. The only "true" humans left are those that live on Earth. They are flawed, technologically backward and trapped into subsistence living but moral and happy. It makes the watcher think about which path for humanity they would choose.

Makes sense. All this time, we thought there were only 2 ways of living (GA vs Gargantia ) when there was a third way that was in front of us the whole time (Hideauze)

Freeter
2013-06-02, 14:10
Was that Amy in the video? It might explain why she doesn't have any parents on Gargantia...

Dop
2013-06-02, 14:10
Excellent.


I had been suspecting that the Hideauze were just 'uplifted' whale squids, but this is just so much better.

So you had the Evolvers, who decided that if man was to go into space it should not be in tin cans, but they should become a spacefaring species and so merged with the symbiont, a kind of ur-whalesquid and eventually become known the Hideauze.

Then the Continental Union, who are racial purists who want to keep the human race pure, and my guess is they eventually became the Galactic Alliance.

So maybe the humans left on earth represent a third way - who decided to stay behind and tough it out (in a kind of Dr. Strangelove way)?

The evolvers left behind probably became weaker where the ones who went into space evolved further and became stronger.

But what about this wormhole generator? Will it still be there or did it get blown up?

Yes! Some decent science fiction.

Divini
2013-06-02, 14:13
Well, I didn't expect the first shocking death in this series would be an innocent little girl-type Hideauze.

Well done...

HandofFate
2013-06-02, 14:14
lol, for some reason, I'm not that all surprised.

Standard "They're humans!!!!" twist.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-02, 14:14
I thought the evolvers are the ones who turned into Hideauze?

Correct. Evolvers -> Hideauze, Continental Union -> Galactic Alliance.


Man I can't say I was totally surprised because in the speculation thread we had already found two interesting evidences that the whalesquids could be humans, but I didn't expect that the Hideauze in space were intelligent creatures with a complex society.

I must agree that I find it hard to believe that anyone would be fine becoming such a "hideous" creature. Is there a point in having tentacles in space? They couldn't engineer a way to have a less repugnant shape?


That apart I loved how almost every speculation about the secret base turned out to be correct. The space elevator was actually a space elevator and the mass driver was actually a mass driver :heh:


The only true surprise here, for me at least, is the fact that it went absolutely smoothly for Ledo and Pinion. It appears that these Hideauze are extremely less dangerous than the spacefaring counterparts, both from fighting capabilities and from intelligence (since supposedly they aren't actually merged with humans).

The Hideauze that Chamber squished, however, seemed different, with more distinguishable features. The strange fact is that it looked identical to "Elaine Matsumoto" which is supposed to be a human mixed with a symbiont. So what was that? Could it be that it was that Elaine Matsumoto since it is implied that the evolvers can live a lot longer than humans?


The last question however now is... okay who is the bad guy?
Frankly the Evolvers look like some kind of crazy inhuman collectivist faction from hell now. They are obviously prospering a lot more in space than the galactic alliance is, and I don't think that they are willing to co-exist with them anymore than they do.

On the other side we have the fascist galactic alliance which at least are still human genetically (or a lot closer to that than their enemies). The government is telling lies to its people, which doesn't come as a surprise since they don't recognize human rights to begin with. They don't want anyone to even remember that the Hideauze are people and they probably don't even recognize them as such themselves.

But if one thought that peace was impossible due to an impossibility to communicate, now you are faced with the fact that both factions are quite capable of that, and this is not much different from any other bloodied war.
The universe is huge guys, as much as I don't find appealing the idea to sit next a squidly creature I don't think it'd be such a bother to let them live a few light years away.


Now on earth the situation is clearly different. The whalesquid are most likely mindless creatures and the reason they have their nest in that facility is simply because they were born there. Whatever theory Ledo had about the Hideauze and their reason to attack humans it doesn't work for these creatures. They probably won't give a damn about humans developing new technologies.

On the other hand they are pretty aggressive and so even if they have human DNA I can't quite consider them with more respect than I would for a raging gorilla. Which mean they should be protected as a species, but if some of them are in the way to get useful technology they can be "politely dispatched". Massacring them like Ledo did is still wrong though.

apotheosis
2013-06-02, 14:14
@Dop
There's only 3 eps left, so it seems like using the wormhole generator to pull the GA (and space Hideaze) into the conflict would take too much time now?

I could see a fight to prevent use of the wormhole generator, except ... who can opppose Ledo/Chamber? Maybe there are some neo Hideaze in orbit or something *shrug*

The Ledo vs Chamber seems like the most interesting conflict left in the series anyway. I'd rather the last ~3 eps get into that & resolve the fleet breakup plot, instead of introducing something completely new.

Mangaka-chan
2013-06-02, 14:16
I agree, but the different breeds of dogs are not 100% geneticaly identical. Even individual dogs of the same breed are not 100% genetically identical. I guess they just meant the creatures had some sort of Hideaze genetic marker, rather than really being identical *shrugs*

We don't know what kind of test Chambers ran to determine if the whalesquid is a Hideaze. Did he do a PCR and just looked at certain SNPs or did he go a really, really fast shot gun sequencing and alignment of the whalsquid's genome that Craig Venter would be proud of? But plot-wise, I think the screen writer's purpose for having the two animals be supposedly the same species is to challenge Ledo's perception of the Hideaze. He'd been trained his whole life to kill Hideaze, thinking they're a violent, less-than-human animal. And when he comes to earth this line of thought extends to the whalesquid because he thinks they're the same species. Now in this episode all of that is blown out of the water (no pun intended) when Ledo realizes that whalesquid=Hideaze=evolved humans.

Helius
2013-06-02, 14:17
But what about this wormhole generator? Will it still be there or did it get blown up?

If it's still there, it'd probably be a foreshadowing of a final showdown between all 3 factions at the end... :naughty:

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 14:21
Correct. Evolvers -> Hideauze, Continental Union -> Galactic Alliance.


Man I can't say I was totally surprised because in the speculation thread we had already found two interesting evidences that the whalesquids could be humans, but I didn't expect that the Hideauze in space were intelligent creatures with a complex society.

I must agree that I find it hard to believe that anyone would be fine becoming such a "hideous" creature. Is there a point in having tentacles in space? They couldn't engineer a way to have a less repugnant shape?


That apart I loved how almost every speculation about the secret base turned out to be correct. The space elevator was actually a space elevator and the mass driver was actually a mass driver :heh:


The only true surprise here, for me at least, is the fact that it went absolutely smoothly for Ledo and Pinion. It appears that these Hideauze are extremely less dangerous than the spacefaring counterparts, both from fighting capabilities and from intelligence (since supposedly they aren't actually merged with humans).

The Hideauze that Chamber squished, however, seemed different, with more distinguishable features. The strange fact is that it looked identical to "Elaine Matsumoto" which is supposed to be a human mixed with a symbiont. So what was that? Could it be that it was that Elaine Matsumoto since it is implied that the evolvers can live a lot longer than humans?


The last question however now is... okay who is the bad guy?
Frankly the Evolvers look like some kind of crazy inhuman collectivist faction from hell now. They are obviously prospering a lot more in space than the galactic alliance is, and I don't think that they are willing to co-exist with them anymore than they do.

On the other side we have the fascist galactic alliance which at least are still human genetically (or a lot closer to that than their enemies). The government is telling lies to its people, which doesn't come as a surprise since they don't recognize human rights to begin with. They don't want anyone to even remember that the Hideauze are people and they probably don't even recognize them as such themselves.

But if one thought that peace was impossible due to an impossibility to communicate, now you are faced with the fact that both factions are quite capable of that, and this is not much different from any other bloodied war.
The universe is huge guys, as much as I don't find appealing the idea to sit next a squidly creature I don't think it'd be such a bother to let them live a few light years away.


Now on earth the situation is clearly different. The whalesquid are most likely mindless creatures and the reason they have their nest in that facility is simply because they were born there. Whatever theory Ledo had about the Hideauze and their reason to attack humans it doesn't work for these creatures. They probably won't give a damn about humans developing new technologies.

On the other hand they are pretty aggressive and so even if they have human DNA I can't quite consider them with more respect than I would for a raging gorilla. Which mean they should be protected as a species, but if some of them are in the way to get useful technology they can be "politely dispatched". Massacring them like Ledo did is still wrong though.

Actually, it seems like they are partially human: remember the whalesquid embryos and the squidling?

apotheosis
2013-06-02, 14:24
Correct. Evolvers -> Hideauze, Continental Union -> Galactic Alliance.
The last question however now is... okay who is the bad guy?
Frankly the Evolvers look like some kind of crazy inhuman collectivist faction from hell now. They are obviously prospering a lot more in space than the galactic alliance is, and I don't think that they are willing to co-exist with them anymore than they do.

On the other side we have the fascist galactic alliance which at least are still human genetically (or a lot closer to that than their enemies). The government is telling lies to its people, which doesn't come as a surprise since they don't recognize human rights to begin with. They don't want anyone to even remember that the Hideauze are people and they probably don't even recognize them as such themselves.


I think this is the question that the series was made to explore & to get young people to consider as they go out into society (and then change society).

I expect that the question won't be answered (and neither will the fate of those two factions), except that they'll imply Gargantia's society is much better & Ledo will restore it to some sort of equilibrium.

I am kind of apprehensive that Ledo will force Chamber to deactivate in the depths of some ocean trench .. I hope it won't be that stark of a "techonology == evil" kind of way to restore equilibrium to Gargantia.

Revan21
2013-06-02, 14:27
On the other hand they are pretty aggressive and so even if they have human DNA I can't quite consider them with more respect than I would for a raging gorilla. Which mean they should be protected as a species, but if some of them are in the way to get useful technology they can be "politely dispatched". Massacring them like Ledo did is still wrong though.

That's what I would do as well :cool:

Marina2
2013-06-02, 14:28
So, eh, Chamber confirmed as the final boss?

Jan-Poo
2013-06-02, 14:30
Actually, it seems like they are partially human: remember the whalesquid embryos and the squidling?

What does "partially human" mean exactly? Chimps' DNA is 99% identical to that of a human, they still are not human.

Are these things closer to humans than chimps? They sure don't look so.


I'd rather focus on whether they are sentient or not. the Hideauze on space seem to be sentient creatures and therefore deserve to be treated like you'd treat another human, even if they are not.

Regarding the whalesquid I'm more inclined to agree with Aohige that those are just the symbiont that were created and that their vaguely human morphology comes from the fact that they were design to merge with humans. They probably have a lot of human DNA still.

I'd say that they are mainly mindless given the way they act. I might be mistaken but if they aren't, then their aggressive behavior is quite hard to justify. There was no need to kill Pinion's brother and there was no point in attacking Bellows.

Kirarakim
2013-06-02, 14:32
Now this is what I expected from Gargantia.

Finally a genuinely great episode. It's been awhile.

apotheosis
2013-06-02, 14:34
What does "partially human" mean exactly? Chimps' DNA is 99% identical to that of a human, they still are not human.

Are these things closer to humans than chimps? They sure don't look so.


I'd rather focus on whether they are sentient or not. the Hideauze on space seems to be sentient creatures and therefore deserve to be treated like you'd treat another human, even if they are not.

Regarding the whalesquid I'm more inclined to agree with Aohige that those are just the symbiont that were created and that their vaguely human morphology comes from the fact that they were design to merge with humans. They probably have a lot of human DNA still.

I'd say that they are mainly mindless given the way they act. I might be mistaken but if they aren't, then their aggressive behavior is quite hard to justify. There was no need to kill Pinion's brother and there was no point in attacking Bellows.

They killed Pinion's brother for entering their nest IMO. This is an instinctive behavior that makes them seem more animal than sentient.

The space Hideaze don't seem anymore sentient to me, just better fighters, but we haven't seen very much of them.

LostSome
2013-06-02, 14:40
The space Hideaze don't seem anymore sentient to me, just better fighters, but we haven't seen very much of them.

I hope so...
That giant flower cannon`s having a human mind ? *shiver*

Key Board
2013-06-02, 14:40
So the reason the space war is happening is because the Hideauze followed the human colony ships and continued to fight there

reminds me of how some Irish immigrants continued their fued from their home country when they came to the United States in the 19th century

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-02, 14:40
I'd say that they are mainly mindless given the way they act. I might be mistaken but if they aren't, then their aggressive behavior is quite hard to justify. There was no need to kill Pinion's brother and there was no point in attacking Bellows.

On some level they probably consider the lab their home, and possibly have a genetic memory of the original war in the sense that they don't like normal humans getting close to certain advanced technology sites.

There was one other point mentioned during the video, that the symbionts were powered by interactions with the nanomachines, at least when they were being developed.

And... Chamber has now used a considerable amount of its energy reserve. There is some fudge factor there in whether they mean combat-usage power or total power, but certainly enough was expended in the whalesquid melee that Chekhov's Gun is fully-loaded.

mikeomni
2013-06-02, 14:41
They killed Pinion's brother for entering their nest IMO. This is an instinctive behavior that makes them seem more animal than sentient.

The space Hideaze don't seem anymore sentient to me, just better fighters, but we haven't seen very much of them.

I think any one of us would try to kill an intruder that's entered where our children are sleeping. Speculated on this earlier in the thread, there is a possibility of getting the symbiont to merge with human DNA that doesn't retain memories of a living human ... which would make them start like newborns in the wild.

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 14:47
I think any one of us would try to kill an intruder that's entered where our children are sleeping. Speculated on this earlier in the thread, there is a possibility of getting the symbiont to merge with human DNA that doesn't retain memories of a living human ... which would make them start like newborns in the wild.

There is also the fact that they probably could not survive without the suit.

They are basically chimera now; the suit has fused with the human to point where newborns are born with the suits. Heck, you can't call them suits anymore; whalesquids/Hideauze are basically a new species

Jan-Poo
2013-06-02, 14:47
I think any one of us would try to kill an intruder that's entered where our children are sleeping.

Without first inviting them to get the hell out? Count me out of that, especially if they aren't bearing weapons and they aren't showing an aggressive behavior.

That kind of response is justifiable for an animal not for a sentient being. You don't kill someone just because he intruded.
At least not in civilized countries...

Key Board
2013-06-02, 14:47
And... Chamber has now used a considerable amount of its energy reserve. There is some fudge factor there in whether they mean combat-usage power or total power, but certainly enough was expended in the whalesquid melee that Chekhov's Gun is fully-loaded.

Chamber advised in one scene for them to retreat and recharge, suggesting that it's possible to do so

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 14:49
Chamber advised in one scene for them to retreat and recharge, suggesting that it's possible to do so

They probably recharge the same way the Gargantia ships do

hai_san
2013-06-02, 14:52
Holy shit holy shit... Gen has done it again!!! Shocking revelation...

NOW SnG is really INTERESTING!

Chamber Final Boss? Bets anyone?

AntonKutovoi
2013-06-02, 14:54
What can I say? UROBUTCHER!!!!

mikeomni
2013-06-02, 14:57
Without first inviting them to get the hell out? Count me out of that, especially if they aren't bearing weapons and they aren't showing an aggressive behavior.

That kind of response is justifiable for an animal not for a sentient being. You don't kill someone just because he intruded.
At least not in civilized countries...

This presumes that communication works. Pinion did get many eyefuls of whalesquid before they were attacked. A long time ago in Texas, a Japanese boy got shot because he entered the wrong house for a party. The father who shot him apparently didn't understand he was non-threatening. Aside from this, would a forklift driving through your nursery count as non-threatening? There was a yellow yunburo on the lower left side where Ledo was busy cooking the larva.

Gundamx
2013-06-02, 15:01
it will be a lot more interested if chamber didn't kill that Hideuze...

Haak
2013-06-02, 15:05
Oh God that was utterly brutal. What a real Wham episode that shakes things up considerably, both for the plot and for poor Ledo.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-02, 15:05
Not worth it.

I, and I would suspect most of humanity, would rather die on our backwater planet than become spaceslugs :twitch:

The body modification is disturbing, but I could get used to the idea. What I couldn't give up, though, is civilization. Intelligence, building things... Being more than a colony of ants. Or space squids, whatever.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-02, 15:05
This presumes that communication works. Pinion did get many eyefuls of whalesquid before they were attacked. A long time ago in Texas, a Japanese boy got shot because he entered the wrong house for a party. The father who shot him apparently didn't understand he was non-threatening. Aside from this, would a forklift driving through your nursery count as non-threatening? There was a yellow yunburo on the lower left side where Ledo was busy cooking the larva.

I knew that someone would mention "texas" as soon as I made that remark. But I think your example proves my point actually. You can't jump on your gun for anyone that simply trespass your borders because there is the possibility that that person might not have bad intentions.

As for what concerns communication "get the hell out" is a message that can be conveyed easily among different species. Dogs are known to be able to do that even if they aren't gifted with our vocabulary.
This is reinforced by the fact that Pinion's brother quite apparently got the message. If he disregarded it though, then the whalesquid could be justifiable, but why would he if he told his brother to escape?

Tranhieu
2013-06-02, 15:07
Foreshadowing much eh?
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a30/Chibita/1369132277839_zps29dd1a60.jpg

Ok I will be honest, I can't count how many time I shouted wtf throughout this episode. This kind of twist isn't that new especially the memories from the last season are still fresh (shin sekai yori). But seeing how it's played out again really surprised me.



The only true surprise here, for me at least, is the fact that it went absolutely smoothly for Ledo and Pinion. It appears that these Hideauze are extremely less dangerous than the spacefaring counterparts, both from fighting capabilities and from intelligence (since supposedly they aren't actually merged with humans).

I suppose they are leftover prototypes of the old experimented whalesquids, not the 'official' version. As hinted in the video the Evolver's final goal is to launch all the squid-man into space, not to let them dwell in Earth's frozen oceans.


The Hideauze that Chamber squished, however, seemed different, with more distinguishable features. The strange fact is that it looked identical to "Elaine Matsumoto" which is supposed to be a human mixed with a symbiont. So what was that? Could it be that it was that Elaine Matsumoto since it is implied that the evolvers can live a lot longer than humans?



Hardly the case imo. Assuming that was actually 'her' there's noway 'she' would walk right in front of Chamber after witnessing how 'her' colleagues got massacred by him if there was any bit of intelligence left.

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 15:12
Foreshadowing much eh?
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a30/Chibita/1369132277839_zps29dd1a60.jpg

Ok I will be honest, I can't count how many time I shouted wtf throughout this episode. This kind of twist isn't that new especially the memories from the last season are still fresh (shin sekai yori). But seeing how it's played out again really surprised me.



I suppose they are leftover prototypes of the old experimented whalesquids, not the 'official' version. As hinted in the video the Evolver's final goal is to launch all the squid-man into space, not to let them dwell in Earth's frozen oceans.


Hardly the case imo. Assuming that was actually 'her' there's noway 'she' would walk right in front of Chamber after witnessing how 'her' colleagues got massacred by him if there was any bit of intelligence left.

She looked like a young squid to me ie didn't know any better.

The Hideauze, from what I've gathered, are humans + symbiotic bio suit to create a new species. The whalesquid eggs have human-esque embryos so I'm assuming they were human a long time ago

mikeomni
2013-06-02, 15:17
I knew that someone would mention "texas" as soon as I made that remark. But I think your example proves my point actually. You can't jump on your gun for anyone that simply trespass your borders because there is the possibility that that person might not have bad intentions.

As for what concerns communication "get the hell out" is a message that can be conveyed easily among different species. Dogs are known to be able to do that even if they aren't gifted with our vocabulary.
This is reinforced by the fact that Pinion's brother quite apparently got the message. If he disregarded it though, then the whalesquid could be justifiable, but why would he if he told his brother to escape?

Touche on Texas and civilized countries. :-) I would like to submit that perhaps the bottom of the ocean doesn't have the same kind of civil norms. In Japan the place where they keep the shoes isn't considered a private part of the house. So it may be okay to open the door and stand there asking if anyone is home. Not the same in the USA. In this case someone was obviously home and he stumbled into a nursery ... maybe about to get into a horrendous accident involving squishy babies and metal feet. They didn't exactly show how the brother was acting inside. But you can see Larva all around his Yunboro when Ledo got past the massive Whalesquid. Given, maybe he got moved there later.

In many cultures, getting eyed as you're moving through a neighborhood is a message "get the hell out." Now if you actually enter a house, that's an escalation.

Tranhieu
2013-06-02, 15:18
She looked like a young squid to me ie didn't know any better.

The Hideauze, from what I've gathered, are humans + symbiotic bio suit to create a new species. The whalesquid eggs have human-esque embryos so I'm assuming they were human a long time ago

But it should have been hundreds, or maybe thousands of years after that experiment was carried out on her right (how long was the last Ice Age)? I wouldn't believe she hadn't grown much bigger after that much time has passed. Maybe they just put another similar kid-squid there for the sake of causing sensation.

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 15:23
But it should have been hundreds, or maybe thousands of years after that experiment was carried out on her right (how long was the last Ice Age)? I wouldn't believe she hadn't grown much bigger after that much time has passed. Maybe they just put another similar kid-squid there for the sake of causing sensation.

I wasn't saying it was the same one we saw in the video.

My theory is that baby whalesquid are born looking humanoid and as they grow up their outer squid 'suit' develops and they look less and less human ie they begin swimming 'feet' first, etc

Also, having a young squid look more human drives home the point that "ZOMG, squidlent green is peoplez!" and makes it more heart wrenching when Chamber kills it

oompa loompa
2013-06-02, 15:28
SO... looks like SnG is finally going somewhere. Too bad though, I liked the idea of them being aliens better.

DuelGundam2099
2013-06-02, 15:31
Well I just watched the episode (BTW thanks for spoiling guys. :() and it was awesome! It had both action and back story, definitely a step up from the stuff we've been getting lately. Not sure why a bunch of news broadcasts edited together would be among the data files though, I don't know, I just found that as odd. I also wonder if that wormhole device mentioned will be in any use in the upcoming episodes.

Tranhieu
2013-06-02, 15:32
I wasn't saying it was the same one we saw in the video.

My theory is that baby whalesquid are born looking humanoid and as they grow up their outer squid 'suit' develops and they look less and less human ie they begin swimming 'feet' first, etc

Also, having a young squid look more human drives home the point that "ZOMG, squidlent green is peoplez!" and makes it more heart wrenching when Chamber kills it

Sorry I wasn't reading your post properly.

The little squid actually succeeded in driving Ledo mad, something 'her' adults couldn't do.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-02, 15:49
Sorry I wasn't reading your post properly.

The little squid actually succeeded in driving Ledo mad, something 'her' adults couldn't do.

It's all because she actually looked kinda cute. This is basically human's attitude towards other animals in a nutshell

Is it cute? If you harm it you're a bastard!
Is it ugly? Argh! Kill it! Kill it!

mikeomni
2013-06-02, 15:50
Well I just watched the episode (BTW thanks for spoiling guys. :() and it was awesome! It had both action and back story, definitely a step up from the stuff we've been getting lately. Not sure why a bunch of news broadcasts edited together would be among the data files though, I don't know, I just found that as odd. I also wonder if that wormhole device mentioned will be in any use in the upcoming episodes.

The news report edits was probably to make it easier to the audience to react to killing the juvenile. What is disturbing is how Chamber still carried out the extermination when Ledo ordered it to stop. The MC had the squid immobilized. If the disobedience was deliberate then we've got problems down the line. If the action was followed through because the activation could no longer be cancelled that's something else, but doubtful when you've had a full second between Ledo's shout and the zap.

As for the wormhole device, it's hard to tell. So far the pirates have been a 'red herring' from a threat perspective.

itoastmysocks
2013-06-02, 15:51
so.. is it just me or does it seem like, humans and hideazu staying behind on earth being to convenient to be a coincidence. That scene where that human touched that squid girl, seemed like.. hey I don#t wanna leave with the rest, hm me neither, lets stay together. I am sure others though the same way, and they formed the basis of the current civilisation, and then tried to unfreeze the earth, kinda would go along as to why some of the humans would consider the squids sacred.

or I might just be reading to much into everything once again xD

MeggieMay
2013-06-02, 15:54
Real quick comment - if you follow the flashback video, I believe the squid girl in space, who looks like the one that Chamber squished later, had a name under her. Her last name was the same as the man who was the first person fused with the Squid Whale prototype. So I believe she was suppose to be the same person as the small girl who looked similar to Amy during that part of the flashback news video.

Thing is, the Space squid girl couldn't have been the one killed at the end IMO. Too many years between now and then, for starters, but the fact the other girl was a Space type also means they most likely couldn't be the same being. The fact she looked like her was just part of what lead Ledo to flip out. Another part was that the one from the ancient past had looked like Amy as a child and he put it all together, thus leading to what freaked him out so badly.

Revolutionist
2013-06-02, 16:06
This episode answered a lot of questions.

The very first Hideauze are humans merged with the symbiotic organism, and it seems like they are sentient. That voice was talking about seizing the Continental Union's wormhole generator to expand into space and what not. However, are they still individuals or a hive-mind? Given that they are spawned in large numbers like insects, I would go with the latter...

Another thing, there could still be important stuff left in orbit, including that wormhole generator. After all, we see in the video that it was indeed blown up, but both the CU/GA and the Evolvers left the solar system, so it's either still functional, or they built another.

oompa loompa
2013-06-02, 16:18
So.. seems like chamber has all the info about everything; i.e. the entire alliance database including restricted sections. Even if the wormhole generator is not there anymore, Chamber should have the technical know-how as to how to build a new one, as well as the computational capacity to do so.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-02, 16:22
When the footage of the wormhole generator's explosion is shown you can read "RT simulator 1.05".
Since it only appears there it is likely meant to tell us that the images we see aren't reality but what should happen according to the continental union's plans.

Kanon
2013-06-02, 16:28
I figured the Hideauze were initially created by humans and that pretty much everything the Alliance tells its soldiers about them is a lie, but I have to admit I never considered the possibility the Hideauze could be evolved humans. That was a pretty nice twist, albeit not very original. It wasn't exactly clear who started the war but I think it was the (future) Alliance. They simply couldn't accept this evolution and resolved to exterminate them all. That's not to say the Hideauze are good guys. They were set on conquering the universe as well. Space is pretty damn huge, you'd think they could have just parted ways, but their hatred of each other is so great it won't allow it. Peace will never be achieved in space until one side is wiped out. Ledo is lucky to have been able to get out of there.

I'm not expecting the show to get any darker than this. This was the peak, imo. No Alliance, no Hideauze, no wormhole (why would he even want to go back now that he knows the truth?). From now on, the story will deal with Ledo coming to terms with the fact his whole life is a lie and focus on his attempt to create a peaceful life for himself on Gargantia. First, he might have to make peace with the Whalesquids, however. It's possible a war might start if he left any survivors in that nest.

lightbringer
2013-06-02, 16:32
Well I just watched the episode (BTW thanks for spoiling guys. :()

Did you open the episode thread before watching the episode and expected not to get spoiled? This is the thread for discussing the contents of episode 9. Reading it before watching the episode is not recommended.

andyjay729
2013-06-02, 16:34
With all this transhumanism goin' on, I wonder if there are any people like this guy (http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=615&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbnid=rMHGx5kt73gdUM:&imgrefurl=http://randomc.net/2012/12/10/psycho-pass/&docid=QMHPt2ZLu0ZTeM&imgurl=http://randomc.net/image/PSYCHO-PASS/PSYCHO-PASS%252520-%25252009%252520-%252520Large%25252012.jpg&w=1280&h=720&ei=vrmrUb2OEIPiiALDwYHIDQ&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:2,s:0,i:89&iact=rc&dur=3392&page=1&tbnh=168&tbnw=236&start=0&ndsp=15&tx=118&ty=72) in the fleets or Galactic Alliance today.

(And now you'll see him in your dreams tonight. You're welcome.)

Diveman
2013-06-02, 16:58
Damn I was expecting the Hideauze to be monsters created by humans, but to think they "were" humans, damn Gen, it took you a while but you've done it again.

bastek66
2013-06-02, 17:09
Pinion's brother still there
http://i.imgur.com/PJ86sfjl.jpg (http://imgur.com/PJ86sfj)

Paranoid Android
2013-06-02, 17:15
Wow that was a damn good episode. When Chamber said it's classified information, I'm like 'ohhhh shittt'

It's nice to see Ledo using military protocol to control Chamber and override its suggestions.

So.. seems like chamber has all the info about everything; i.e. the entire alliance database including restricted sections. Even if the wormhole generator is not there anymore, Chamber should have the technical know-how as to how to build a new one, as well as the computational capacity to do so.
It makes sense. Our modern tech can store so much in non-volatile memory, GA's tech is probably good enough to store their entire database in every machine. But I don't think Ledo's military commands are going go get him access into Chamber's database that contains all sorts of possible non-military information.

ServantOfPriss
2013-06-02, 17:15
I said "Holy Shit" out loud.

Pretty much this. This is my favorite episode of the season, so far, right after MJP's episode 7.

Anyhow,

I was expecting something along the lines, but not that humans and the Space Hideauze share genetic material. I like that little twist. Now it's all a matter of time if whether the time travel theories abounding around the net are true or not.

kk2extreme
2013-06-02, 17:17
Amy look alike spotted in the recorded video

Haruyasha
2013-06-02, 17:19
Coordinators vs Humans? :D

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-02, 17:21
Did you open the episode thread before watching the episode and expected not to get spoiled? This is the thread for discussing the contents of episode 9. Reading it before watching the episode is not recommended.This is how I see it, too. This is the benefit of having episode threads. Spoilers are a problem in normal threads that cover everything, but when we have single-episode threads, we don't need spoiler tags for things that happen in the episode.

The only problem would be having a place to speculate about the episode before it airs, but that can be done in the previous episode's thread.

Beltane70
2013-06-02, 17:21
This was definitely one of my favorite episodes of this series. Even with some of the implications made earlier, I still found the big reveal a bit of a surprise!

mistress_kisara
2013-06-02, 17:25
That was a great twist, I was like WTF!! and then Chamber killed the "moe" hideauze...

Jetzero Infinity
2013-06-02, 17:39
Well this sums up my feelings on the episode: HOLY CRAP DAT PLOT TWIST!:twitch:

I'm actually kind of surprised I didn't see it coming since it's definently the kind of thing Urobuchi would pull. The whole entire war the Galactic Alliance has going on is a glorified sham, and the Hideauze are human. This certainly raises the question of what's going to happen to Ledo from this point on since he was pretty clearly disturbed by the revelation but it also raises a big question about the Hideauze: How sentient are they, and are the Evolvers who created them still pulling the strings somewhere in space?

I'm really curious to see where this is all gonna go now, though it makes it a bit more disappointing that this is still only 12 episodes. Hopefully things start to speed up a bit soon.

DuelGundam2099
2013-06-02, 17:40
Did you open the episode thread before watching the episode and expected not to get spoiled?
I expected the first page's content to have spoiler tags.

Helius
2013-06-02, 17:41
Now it's all a matter of time if whether the time travel theories abounding around the net are true or not.

Seriously, why? :eyespin:

Jerseykid
2013-06-02, 17:50
Ledo baby killer!

Belgaesh
2013-06-02, 17:54
Damn you, Butch Gen. But I really should have predicted that one, it reminded me of Saya no Uta.

willyvereb
2013-06-02, 17:58
Yeah, I was half-expecting a major twist with the Hideauze and I wasn't disappointed.
And I guess this is the part from which things are going to escalate.
Especially since this is Urobuchi we're talking about I think this series is far frombeing over with the surprises.

Well, we'll see it in just a couple of weeks.

Damn you, Butch Gen. But I really should have predicted that one, it reminded me of Saya no Uta.Particularly to one of the endings.
At least I hope Ledo doesn't have the same mental illness as SnU's protagonist.
Because if yes then the last episode is indeed going to be very-very shocking.
Granted, Urobuchi never does a plot twist without any foreshadowing, the chances for the latter are extremely unlikely.

takai
2013-06-02, 17:59
Wooooooooow. Did not see that coming at all. This practically changes everything.

But overall a good episode. When I saw the baby forms I had a hunch but I thought maybe it was just a coincidence.

Dammit, Chamber. I can't believe he just ignored Ledo's command. Should be real good next episode.

Wandering_Youth
2013-06-02, 18:04
Well this was a surprise...
I expected the Hideauze to be monsters created by humans, but were actually artifically evolved humans. This explains a lot about the war between Ledo's people and the enemy they fight.

Ledo's people and a few of the Evolvers escaped to space to continue their war while leaving behind Earth. The people that got left behind on Earth, both normal and evolved humans now live a semi-co existence life.

This would explain why the Earth Hideauze are so weak compared to the ones in space.

pagan poor
2013-06-02, 18:11
Urobutcher does it again. I liked how the build up to all this from when the whalesquids started to show up to this point. Well played.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-02, 18:36
I wonder if the Whale-Squid have been able not only to take in dead or dying humans (Pinion's brother?) and whale-squidify them, but also perhaps to repopulate the surface of the Earth with altered forms of their own offspring (Amy?).

If the scientists were able to whale-squidify themselves, they could keep doing science. However, the generally decrepit state of this nursery argues against much science going on. But I am imagining a situation where the whale-squid find a way to heat up the ice and then, in the absence (?) of remaining humans on land, repopulate the surface themselves.

Irenesharda
2013-06-02, 18:56
This show has had its ups and downs, going from excellent to okay to abysmal and then back to okay again. However this episode, I really don't know what to say about it. The beginning was good, but as it kept going and the big reveal was shown, all I could say to myself was, "Really?...REALLY?! You had all this to work with and this is what you came up with?!"

To say this show has jumped the shark in my opinion, is an understatement. It has literally hurdled over it.

Red fights the many earth Hideauze who are not nearly as strong as space Hideauze and comes across hidden classified information. We find out that the Hideauze are no alien lifeforms, or at least they didn't start out that way. The Hideauze are "evolved" humans who through experimentation were changed into beings that were able to first survive in deep sea and then in Space. A war erupted between the non-evolved and evolved humans that went into deep space and thus the conflict between the Hideauze and the Alliance began.

Now, even forgetting the hideous misuse of science and "evolution" in this episode that makes the biologist in me writhe in pain, the notion that these flowers, nautilus, snails, squid, etc. were all once human is so ridiculous, that it makes everything in Valvrave believable. And knowing that the Hideauze are indeed pseudo-human makes not only the whole thousands year war idiotic and both sides can kill each other for all I care. The Hideauze are not some lower lifeform that is merely acting on instinct, they have the same capacity to think and act as we do, which makes them just as bloodthirsty as the Alliance. I say let them keep fighting their war in the stars if they wish, it's all meaningless as each side hits tit for tat.

As for the Hideauze of Earth, they seem to be just as underdeveloped as their human counterparts are in comparison to the Alliance. They didn't "evolve" the ability to live or travel in space and so are stuck in their deep sea beginning form.

This series just suddenly got so ridiculous and silly and with only 3 or 4 episodes to correct this trainwreck, I am not expecting much. I've gotten this far in the series, so I will continue to the end. However, I will always remember this series for the chancy but still absurd "squid-people" plotline.

stormy001_M1A2
2013-06-02, 19:12
/me claps hand at Gen Urobochi's twist.

If he can make a 38 year old man jumping out of chair and mentally screaming What the Fuck, he owned me, man.

I still recovering from the shock of the revelation.

ThereminVox
2013-06-02, 19:14
Thing is, the Space squid girl couldn't have been the one killed at the end IMO. Too many years between now and then, for starters, but the fact the other girl was a Space type also means they most likely couldn't be the same being. The fact she looked like her was just part of what lead Ledo to flip out. Another part was that the one from the ancient past had looked like Amy as a child and he put it all together, thus leading to what freaked him out so badly.

Pretty much my thoughts on this, and basically what I wanted to suggest was going on there. The resemblance of the Matsumoto daughter to Amy (probably) isn't relevant to the overarching plot, but it's very relevant to Ledo's slipping grasp on the situation, and to the audience for similar reasons. Likewise, there's no reason to believe the crushed squidling was the Matsumoto daughter, but the connection is apparent: It too human roots, and moreover, it was a child. Not important in the grand scheme of things, but it provokes a visceral reaction.

This all throws the nature of the galactic conflict into question, especially the way that Ledo rationalizes the whalesquid's less aggressive nature, and the relative peace with humans of Earth as compared to the Hideauze. There are clearly two factions at the start of the conflict, but that war went out into the stars, and doesn't account for what happened to those who remained behind and had to survive and ice age, and later the flooding of most of the planet.

Just as there is no existing connection between the Earthlings and the GA, we can't assume that the whalesquids' future actions can be predicted by the brutally expansionist Hideauze. What CAN be predicted is how they're likely to react to having one of(?) their nests exterminated...

yankky5
2013-06-02, 19:20
Seriously that the development was interesting I wont say I didnt see it coming but it was delightfully surprising mankind playing with the human genome to create a being that is well suited in 0g environment..... then suddenly the evolved started gaining intelligence, an ego and its own parliament and we have x-men type situation :heh:

CJ_Walker
2013-06-02, 19:24
yup

pfft, one of my friends BEGGED me to watch this episode since I stopped watching it and. . .yeah:

I agree with what you said. . .maybe if they hadn't wasted so much time and had this episode like. . . two episodes ago I'd care more. but nope I don't I guess the director of the belly dance scene was trying to allude to the human/squid hybrid (look at their clothing) of course I'd rather have a decently paced and high quality storyline than "foreshadowing." (a decently paced story/high quality storyline has all of these things.)

Other than the killing of the babies, and Chamber crushing the Moe squid girl for the shock value and the obligatory "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo" scene, nothing of value was lost.

well off to tell my friend to go F*ck himself for wasting my time. . .

stormy001_M1A2
2013-06-02, 19:25
In other words



Galactic Alliance is a Space Nazi government. Same hair color, constant indoctrination, very aggressive military culture and extermination of other impure strain.

zztop
2013-06-02, 19:32
So Ledo's been fighting Ika Musume's immediate family all along???!!! :O
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Y1JDaC1cLiI/TohCZ7tH6kI/AAAAAAAAAzw/LeUjY3E3vZc/s1600/ika_musume.jpg http://cache.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/887263-bigthumbnail.jpg

I knew the whalesquids were experiments, but this was unexpected.

In fact this plotline would fit right at home in a new Dr Who episode! :)

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-02, 19:38
Ika Musume jokes have been lurking in the background ever since the term "whalesquid" appeared. Now they're just more... foreground. :)

ServantOfPriss
2013-06-02, 19:43
Seriously, why? :eyespin:

Literally every other board I've seen (Evageeks, /m/, /a/, MAHQ...), there is someone or several users that theorize that Ledo travelled back thousands of years in time. Although now that I think about, with this new twist, it's actually now moot.

Triple_R
2013-06-02, 19:45
Whatever my final take on Gargantia as a whole ends up being, I must say this:

Well-played, Gen, well-played.


This time, you really did have many people believing that the show wasn't going to get all that dark. But now we get very dark and intriguing revelations to say the least.

Irenesharda
2013-06-02, 19:53
In other words



Galactic Alliance is a Space Nazi government. Same hair color, constant indoctrination, very aggressive military culture and extermination of other impure strain.



Both sides are evil really. The Alliance are warmongers, but the "Evolvers" were just as bad doing horrid illegal human experimentation, and were fighting the alliance just as hard. Both sides wanted to strand the other to death on Earth. Both sides (at least the ones in space) are just as evil as the other and can both continue this war for all time if they wish for all I care. I'm through. Once I finish this series I will never be looking at again. :mad:

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-02, 20:18
Incidentally (and I grabbed this screenshot from RandomCuriosity), the bombers had me thinking of the love child of a B-2 Spirit and a White Star.

http://i.imgur.com/S9eEe9Tl.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/S9eEe9T.jpg)

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-02, 20:48
Actually, fans of old school Doctor Who will recognize much of the "Kaleds vs. Thals" war in this conflict.

jeroz
2013-06-02, 20:58
No matter who camout as victor between the GA Hideazu war, human wins. How's that for a happy ending?

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-02, 21:04
From my perspective the war in space boils down to the Hideauze and Galactic Human Alliance can't just leave each other alone.

The GHA wants to expand to find a habitable planet but the Hideauze kept following them as GHA wormhole technology is the vector of their conquest of space.

It doesn't help that both have evolved to Transhumanist supremacists and Purist supremacists.

Those on Earth? They got left behind and leave each other alone mostly. It doesn't help that they can't communicate.

It has to be noted the symbionts are essentially what Machine Calibers are to the GHA.

Thus I speculate another twist... The machines has taken over the GHA as they've made an interpretation of Zeroth Law.

But the Gargantian's ancestors they abandoned AI and computers so they wouldn't have that crap.

bahamut zero
2013-06-02, 21:06
Anyone notice these similarities?


http://i.imgur.com/j7iGnNP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4djKTzX.png

I also got quite the sense of humor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ud0Bi9OYcE

jzmagic
2013-06-02, 21:08
My prediction on the ending:
Lido destroys the "ancient" tech hidden in the ocean and lets Earth remain isolated from the war between the squid people and alliance, dying in the process.

DwArD
2013-06-02, 21:09
Woke up in the morning, was watching the latest episode while my eating breakfast....*20 minutes later*.....I nearly choke on my own breakfast.

I did not expect this episode to turn out this way. It's just so sad that this happened. I do not care what happens to those two factions (I think by now it's safe to call them that) in space but everything is just so peaceful on Earth now. I expect Ledo's relationship with Chamber to change in the upcoming episode. I still don't get it, with Chamber's capability, it is obviously capable of acting on it's own when exposed to certain conditions. This means that Chamber do not need to obey Ledo at all. I'm not surprised if in the future Chamber suddenly deem Ledo as unstable and unfit to carry on his duty and proceed to overwrite all his commands.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-02, 21:15
No matter who camout as victor between the GA Hideazu war, human wins. How's that for a happy ending?

I say that Hideauze are at best transhuman and not of the best kind.

I can't help but remembering how in EP1 they attacked the quantum bombs and made them explode, That was basically a suicide attack which wasn't strictly necessary, especially considering that the alliance was already retreating.

This suggests that the Hideauze have basically even less care for individual rights than the Alliance.


An ending with the Hideauze dominating the universe would be as much as happy as a Star Trek ending where humanity prospers as part of the borg.

Theo
2013-06-02, 21:16
Whatever my final take on Gargantia as a whole ends up being, I must say this:

Well-played, Gen, well-played.


This time, you really did have many people believing that the show wasn't going to get all that dark. But now we get very dark and intriguing revelations to say the least.

Are you not suffering?! Are you not SUFFERING?!

Is that not why you are here?!

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-02, 21:22
Gen has given us the Daleks vs. The Committee of 300. As always in his universe when it comes to authority figures, "A pox on both your houses".

ThereminVox
2013-06-02, 21:25
I did not expect this episode to turn out this way. It's just so sad that this happened. I do not care what happens to those two factions (I think by now it's safe to call them that) in space but everything is just so peaceful on Earth now. I expect Ledo's relationship with Chamber to change in the upcoming episode. I still don't get it, with Chamber's capability, it is obviously capable of acting on it's own when exposed to certain conditions. This means that Chamber do not need to obey Ledo at all. I'm not surprised if in the future Chamber suddenly deem Ledo as unstable and unfit to carry on his duty and proceed to overwrite all his commands.

The only reason I don't fully expect Chamber to be a huge obstacle is that Ledo has already quite sufficiently stirred the pot. If the whalesquids are as sensitive and responsive to threats as episode 7 suggested, then any trouble Chamber causes will just be piling on the primary problem: Ledo may have just inadvertently repeated a tragic mistake and started a human vs. human turf war.

Clearly it won't be easy for Chamber to adapt. Hell, his first instinct was that the recovered data must be enemy propaganda. Being programmed to accept certain things as objective fact, can sure skew your concept of probability. :heh: So yeah, he could absolutely be a problem. But we've seen a few interesting sequences of Ledo and Chamber acting as a unit, and Chamber deferring certain decisions to his officer. This may be another disagreement that needs to be worked through, or it could trigger a GA fail safe. Hard to say.

TimeSkip
2013-06-02, 21:26
This is very interesting? I like how this plays out.

I wonder if the Hideauzes were genuine aliens, would they all be willing to coexist


Both sides are evil really. The Alliance are warmongers, but the "Evolvers" were just as bad doing horrid illegal human experimentation, and were fighting the alliance just as hard. Both sides wanted to strand the other to death on Earth. Both sides (at least the ones in space) are just as evil as the other and can both continue this war for all time if they wish for all I care. I'm through. Once I finish this series I will never be looking at again. :mad:

To be specific, the evils are the higher-up from both sides not the ones dying in the battlefields. Those who dies without knowing the truth are victims as well.

You can see that once Ledo learnt the truth he questioned his lifelong duty

To say that "they can both continue this war for all time if they wish" is kind of ignorant or uncaring.

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-02, 21:31
I see one potential path to redemption for Ledo in protecting the Earth from what's effectively the future, as this has effectively become a time-travel scenario. While they haven't advanced much in conventional terms, the descendants of the Evolvers and the Continental Union on Earth have achieved a sort of peace their spacebound cousins didn't. The whalesquids live in their environment, and the humans in theirs, and effectively they leave each other alone (or did, till Ledo arrived to upset the balance). Keeping them from being drawn into the endless war between the Hideauze and the Galactic Alliance could be Ledo's ultimate task.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-02, 21:35
At best Pinion's brother was killed for entering the nursery... At worst a symbiont forcibly merged with him.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/1370217515952_zps75476431.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/1370217515952_zps75476431.jpg.html)

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 21:38
The only reason I don't fully expect Chamber to be a huge obstacle is that Ledo has already quite sufficiently stirred the pot. If the whalesquids are as sensitive and responsive to threats as episode 7 suggested, then any trouble Chamber causes will just be piling on the primary problem: Ledo may have just inadvertently repeated a tragic mistake and started a human vs. human turf war.

Clearly it won't be easy for Chamber to adapt. Hell, his first instinct was that the recovered data must be enemy propaganda. Being programmed to accept certain things as objective fact, can sure skew your concept of probability. :heh: So yeah, he could absolutely be a problem. But we've seen a few interesting sequences of Ledo and Chamber acting as a unit, and Chamber deferring certain decisions to his officer. This may be another disagreement that needs to be worked through, or it could trigger a GA fail safe. Hard to say.

Chamber's mission is to support Ledo in the extermination of the Hideauze. If Ledo no longer wants to folloew his mission, I can see Chamber deeming him a 'traitor' and therefore no longer follow his commands

Terrestrial Dream
2013-06-02, 22:03
Damn... that was a twist. Ledo's development from here is going to interesting one for sure.

Markerlight
2013-06-02, 22:19
Gen Urobuchi strikes again! I did not see that one coming.

Did anyone else notice that when the diver touched Elaine Matsumoto's skin, it sparkled like light bugs? And one of Pinion's crew said there were lots of lightbugs in the water after Ledo started slaughtering Whalesquids? I'm guessing the Whalesquids produce lightbugs, and that means that Gargantia/Humans depend on Whalesquids for their basic survival. That could be the real reason why they're considered holy by the Gargantians, having forgotten over time.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-02, 22:29
It is actually said in the video that the "symbiont" receive nutrition support from the nanomachine in a process similar to photosynthesis.

Basically whalesquids need to stay wherever the ligthbugs are in order to survive and they probably have a lot inside of them. It's not a wonder that their nest is particularly rich in lightbugs, because they need even more food there.

Since the nanomachines are said to be in symbiosis with the... symbionts (whalesquids)... it can't be excluded that their reproduction is strictly tied to the whalesquids' life cycle.

frubam
2013-06-02, 22:32
When I heard Bevel playing the flute at the end, I thought of an ending where Amy would end up as a Hideauze/human hybrid, and Ledo would finally decide to co-exist with his lifetime enemy. That would be a very bittersweet ending…

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-02, 22:42
I don't see the two sides as equally bad, yet. The Evolvers were seeking to remake themselves so humans could survive. The Union was trying to stop them from becoming superior, but had its own plans for escaping and leaving the rubes to die. And the Union attacked the Evolvers even before getting UN approval. (Although clearly the Evolvers, or some country favoring them, did attack the Union's space elevator, and took part in a greater war.)

In space, I didn't see the Hideauze attack without first being attacked. As far as I can see, the Alliance are the only ones trying to impose their will on others. And they have done a great job of imposing it on their own people. I would like to see some of the Alliance ruling class.

Yes, transhumanism could present problems (to bring things back to our present day) but I think to call it some kind of moral outrage is without basis, except if you follow St. Thomas Aquinas, who also is used against contraception, since it is not "natural."

In any case, I am not at all revolted by the idea of becoming a space squid, especially if the alternative would be my demise. And I think that within the next fifty years or so, we will all be getting enhancements of various kinds and think little of it. Tattoos are just the first step.

And I can definitely see the show going in the direction frubam just mentioned. Amy already swoops through the air like a whalesquid in the sea.

molitar
2013-06-02, 22:44
I think there idea to evolve appears to have devolved them instead. They are vicious in nature attacking Bellows that time when she did nothing to provoke it in the first place. They have lost all semblance of any humanity except for the embryo stage after the embryo they don't even resemble anything human but a horrible vicious Squid.

I was expecting them to have been man made but not devolved humans. Hateful devolved humans at that they did not need the wormhole at all they could of just traveled on there own but no they wanted to fight evidently forever and used the wormhole to follow the humans.

Benigmatica
2013-06-02, 22:49
Damn... that was a twist. Ledo's development from here is going to interesting one for sure.

Certainly, and I think Urobuchi did a great job even though it'll be messy!

Traece
2013-06-02, 22:53
I think what bothered me most about the Evolvers transhumanism is that they did it in the first place. There really was no concrete reason to choose that path over simply building spaceships and going to a new planet, or even just living in space (hey, they can become the Abh). Instead they chose a very detrimental and complicated process to turn themselves into creatures that don't use technology or really seem to do much beyond existing and propagating in the way of unintelligent life. In a sense that makes it more confusing, because there really has been no indication that the Hideauze are actually intelligent, insomuch as your average creature. Obviously it's too soon to really make a concrete claim like that, but thus far it's observationally questionable.

The impression I got was less that they did it out of need, and more that they did it because they had a convenient excuse available. Granted, from a storytelling point that's not necessarily a bad thing. It wouldn't be the first time people took advantage of a situation to enact their own desires.

Unknown Soldier
2013-06-02, 22:55
Well, it explains why Chamber had a map of the Solar System in his databanks, anyways. The Alliance has probably always known where Earth is but kept it a secret even from it's own citizens.

I just wonder, before the Evolvers and Continental Union went to space, they had to construct a wormhole gate to travel via what is apparently mass effect drive. Which is all very interesting, except that don't you need to build a gate on both ends in order to transmit between them? How did the Continental Union build the gate on the other end?

If the wormhole gate to Earth was destroyed, how did Ledo even end up there when he fell through the wormhole that connected the Galactic Alliance fleet and the Evolver base at the very start of the show?

I think what bothered me most about the Evolvers transhumanism is that they did it in the first place. There really was no concrete reason to choose that path over simply building spaceships and going to a new planet, or even just living in space (hey, they can become the Abh). Instead they chose a very detrimental and complicated process to turn themselves into creatures that don't use technology or really seem to do much beyond existing and propagating in the way of unintelligent life. In a sense that makes it more confusing, because there really has been no indication that the Hideauze are actually intelligent, insomuch as your average creature. Obviously it's too soon to really make a concrete claim like that, but thus far it's observationally questionable.

The impression I got was less that they did it out of need, and more that they did it because they had a convenient excuse available. Granted, from a storytelling point that's not necessarily a bad thing. It wouldn't be the first time people took advantage of a situation to enact their own desires.

But the Hideous in space have constructed a large beam weapon and used it to fire upon and decimate the Alliance fleet at the start. It's clear they still have plenty of intelligence if they can construct beam weapons. They just don't need ships to fly around in like the Alliance, since they can survive just fine in space without them.

Darth Fanta
2013-06-02, 22:58
I don't care what those hideauze were originally. They are now a completely separate species. I would have no qualm killing them if I was Ledo--just like you wouldn't hesitate to kill a chimp or another ape just because you had a common ancestor if you are threatened by them. Heck, if the theory of revolution is true, than the very sheep you eat might have a common ancestor with you if you stretch the ancestry far back enough .But killing the one at the end was totally uncalled for.

king12354
2013-06-02, 22:59
I think what bothered me most about the Evolvers transhumanism is that they did it in the first place. There really was no concrete reason to choose that path over simply building spaceships and going to a new planet, or even just living in space (hey, they can become the Abh). Instead they chose a very detrimental and complicated process to turn themselves into creatures that don't use technology or really seem to do much beyond existing and propagating in the way of unintelligent life. In a sense that makes it more confusing, because there really has been no indication that the Hideauze are actually intelligent, insomuch as your average creature. Obviously it's too soon to really make a concrete claim like that, but thus far it's observationally questionable.

The impression I got was less that they did it out of need, and more that they did it because they had a convenient excuse available. Granted, from a storytelling point that's not necessarily a bad thing. It wouldn't be the first time people took advantage of a situation to enact their own desires.

Maybe it was an unintended consequence of their plan to become "superhumans". As the Hideauze fought and fought, they evolved to become a more combat oriented species, and as a result their intelligence faded away. Like natural selection.

whitecloud
2013-06-02, 22:59
Now it brings us to this question...if somehow, in the future we are in the same position as them, which road would you guys pick? Gargantia?galactic alliance?evolver?

For me I'll go with galactic alliance..I think as long there is no enemy they will not be so nazi...

Endless Soul
2013-06-02, 23:07
Like others, I suspected that humans were involved with the creation of the Hideaze somehow, but I never expected them to actually be human. ~mind blown~

I totally laughed during the video explaining that space travel would take too long and was depicted by a man standing on a rocket travelling through space, followed by a man with a cane, followed by a spirit with wings.

Also, to whoever posted the pic of Pinion's brother's yanburo still there in the hatchery, nice catch.

Endless "Mind blown" Soul

Darth Fanta
2013-06-02, 23:12
Now it brings us to this question...if somehow, in the future we are in the same position as them, which road would you guys pick? Gargantia?galactic alliance?evolver?

For me I'll go with galactic alliance..I think as long there is no enemy they will not be so nazi...

Galactic Alliance. But for some reason, I strongly suspect the Avalon thing to be a fraud--it's either a hellhole or simply doesn't actually exist. The part where there's a little kid who looks identical to Ledo prompt me to think they may be using clones or at least breeding soldiers via artificial insemination using the same parental template as soldiers.In terms of efficiency, it's far more efficient breeding soldiers of a proven breed.

Traece
2013-06-02, 23:25
Well, it explains why Chamber had a map of the Solar System in his databanks, anyways. The Alliance has probably always known where Earth is but kept it a secret even from it's own citizens.

I just wonder, before the Evolvers and Continental Union went to space, they had to construct a wormhole gate to travel via what is apparently mass effect drive. Which is all very interesting, except that don't you need to build a gate on both ends in order to transmit between them? How did the Continental Union build the gate on the other end?

If the wormhole gate to Earth was destroyed, how did Ledo even end up there when he fell through the wormhole that connected the Galactic Alliance fleet and the Evolver base at the very start of the show?
Well, there are two possibilities: One-way travel, or construction of an endpoint.

Both are technically possible and likely, but if you ask me I'm actually leaning more towards them having constructed an endpoint for their gate. It's the method that has been shown in the series, and is thus the most plausible. It would also serve to partially explain Ledo's appearance here, as it's possible that the gate was affected and his travel deflected to the Earth gate (kind of like Stargate, whenever the gate gets hit by an energy weapon and they jump inside).

As for the method of travel, artificial wormhole is really the more common and plausible method for them to use here. That idea fits with this fiction in what they've presented thus far. I doubt it will be wholly relevant though, because Ledo will probably choose to stay on Earth.

Edit: Oh, yeah, thanks Endless Soul for reminding me about that travel depiction. The progression from man to angel cracked me up. Such a silly and innocent looking thing; it was hard to not laugh.

creb
2013-06-02, 23:38
Well, I was wondering what they'd use to make Ledo decide he shouldn't be killing the squids, but I really never imagined that they were actually engineered humans, though when he was going through the complex and the embryos were floating around and they looked human, I had a bad premonition. :heh:

That said, I still don't really see where this is all going. We've got 3? episodes left for him to presumably come to grips with it all and presumably changing his kill 'em all stance, but then...what? Return to Gargantia, hug Amy, sun set in the background, drop curtain? There doesn't really seem like a suitable climactic ending to this story. :p

Edit: It's kind of a shame that the Alliance doesn't look to be making a reappearance, as there's all sorts of delicious irony to explore in their almost certain adoption of genetic engineering when they presumably started out against the practice. :heh:

2nd Edit: Also, I guess worrying about Chamber running out of energy was a pointless thought exercise as it was pretty much confirmed he's capable of recharging. Makes you wonder why they bothered making limited energy a concern in episode 1.

SQA
2013-06-02, 23:48
I think what bothered me most about the Evolvers transhumanism is that they did it in the first place. There really was no concrete reason to choose that path over simply building spaceships and going to a new planet, or even just living in space (hey, they can become the Abh). Instead they chose a very detrimental and complicated process to turn themselves into creatures that don't use technology or really seem to do much beyond existing and propagating in the way of unintelligent life. In a sense that makes it more confusing, because there really has been no indication that the Hideauze are actually intelligent, insomuch as your average creature. Obviously it's too soon to really make a concrete claim like that, but thus far it's observationally questionable.

The impression I got was less that they did it out of need, and more that they did it because they had a convenient excuse available. Granted, from a storytelling point that's not necessarily a bad thing. It wouldn't be the first time people took advantage of a situation to enact their own desires.

The reason you don't experiment on humans is not that there isn't valuable information to gain, but the reality that once you pass that "moral event horizon", humans are now nothing but things to dissect and experiment upon. Once you deny humans innate dignity, you render your fellow humans worthy of no different regard than you do a spider you just killed.

Thus the Nazi turn isn't a cop out for writing: it is the always and forever result of that thinking. Considering the Evolvers probably also started experimenting on the unwilling, as well, it's a great way to start a war. Which doesn't even consider the very likely bio-weapons research they were up to, as well. (The type of research necessary to perform what they were doing would have direct weapons applications)

Not that the Galactic Alliance is a bunch of nice guys, but you adapt to prolonged War. It's never a nice result.

Wandering_Youth
2013-06-02, 23:53
Maybe it's just me, but Commie fansubs said they merged a human with a artificially created creature which live in a symbiotic relationship. If that's true then there are the creatures and then there are the hybrids. The whalesquids are the creatures while the little human squid child Chamber killed is the human hybrid?

This might be the same with their space cousins with the hybrids leading and the low form creatures doing all the fighting and dirty work.

Cadallin
2013-06-03, 00:10
The reason you don't experiment on humans is not that there isn't valuable information to gain, but the reality that once you pass that "moral event horizon", humans are now nothing but things to dissect and experiment upon. Once you deny humans innate dignity, you render your fellow humans worthy of no different regard than you do a spider you just killed.

Thus the Nazi turn isn't a cop out for writing: it is the always and forever result of that thinking. Considering the Evolvers probably also started experimenting on the unwilling, as well, it's a great way to start a war. Which doesn't even consider the very likely bio-weapons research they were up to, as well. (The type of research necessary to perform what they were doing would have direct weapons applications)

Not that the Galactic Alliance is a bunch of nice guys, but you adapt to prolonged War. It's never a nice result.

Wow, we're actually seeing, in this thread, how the lines get drawn between trans-humanists, and the people who decry them as an abomination. (As an aside, this is perhaps the ultimate (in the truest sense) expressions of progressive vs conservative) .

Coexistence is impossible.

Indeed.

We know who shot first in the Galactic Alliance vs. Trans-humanists. We saw it in the bloody video when the Galactic Alliance (neé Continental Union) bombed the trans-humanist research facility. That was it, the Fort Sumter of the Galactic Alliance-Trans Humanist conflict.


But seriously Look at it! In this thread, there's:

1) OK, adapt and change, even if its radical

and

2) Change?! Never! I'll go full on nazi first!

I honestly find that really fascinating. And yeah, I'll be honest, I'm heavily partial to trans-humanism. Humanity as it exists now leaves a LOT to be desired, although I vote space elves instead of space squid. Even if its not that pronounced, we should (hopefully) get better and better at screening for genetic diseases, negative mutations. How about perfect vision, a predisposition to perfect cholesterol levels, etc, etc?

Darth Fanta
2013-06-03, 00:11
Well, I was wondering what they'd use to make Ledo decide he shouldn't be killing the squids, but I really never imagined that they were actually engineered humans, though when he was going through the complex and the embryos were floating around and they looked human, I had a bad premonition. :heh:

That said, I still don't really see where this is all going. We've got 3? episodes left for him to presumably come to grips with it all and presumably changing his kill 'em all stance, but then...what? Return to Gargantia, hug Amy, sun set in the background, drop curtain? There doesn't really seem like a suitable climactic ending to this story. :p

Edit: It's kind of a shame that the Alliance doesn't look to be making a reappearance, as there's all sorts of delicious irony to explore in their almost certain adoption of genetic engineering when they presumably started out against the practice. :heh:

2nd Edit: Also, I guess worrying about Chamber running out of energy was a pointless thought exercise as it was pretty much confirmed he's capable of recharging. Makes you wonder why they bothered making limited energy a concern in episode 1.
The Galactic alliance didn't experiment in genetics to produce a separate species.

Wow, we're actually seeing, in this thread, how the lines get drawn between trans-humanists, and the people who decry them as an abomination. (As an aside, this is perhaps the ultimate (in the truest sense) expressions of progressive vs conservative) .

Coexistence is impossible.

Indeed.

We know who shot first in the Galactic Alliance vs. Trans-humanists. We saw it in the bloody video when the Galactic Alliance (neé Continental Union) bombed the trans-humanist research facility. That was it, the Fort Sumter of the Galactic Alliance-Trans Humanist conflict.


But seriously Look at it! In this thread, there's:

1) OK, adapt and change, even if its radical

and

2) Change?! Never! I'll go full on nazi first!

I honestly find that really fascinating. And yeah, I'll be honest, I'm heavily partial to trans-humanism. Humanity as it exists now leaves a LOT to be desired, although I vote space elves instead of space squid. Even if its not that pronounced, we should (hopefully) get better and better at screening for genetic diseases, negative mutations. How about perfect vision, a predisposition to perfect cholesterol levels, etc, etc?

The transhumans violated the international law. Technically, any country could attack them with or without UN sanction. The moment they did it, they were no longer under the protection of the international law.

SQA
2013-06-03, 00:17
Maybe it's just me, but Commie fansubs said they merged a human with a artificially created creature which live in a symbiotic relationship. If that's true then there are the creatures and then there are the hybrids. The whalesquids are the creatures while the little human squid child Chamber killed is the human hybrid?

This might be the same with their space cousins with the hybrids leading and the low form creatures doing all the fighting and dirty work.

At this point, we don't actually know the exact details, truly. I do think that the "mother squid" he killed and most of what he's slaughtered hasn't been the "human" form versions. It's the developing ones that were being guarded and that 1 that came down that's the big question.

Obviously, Pinion's brother got merged (expect that to be probably an important point before the end), but there is then a BIG question: where did those other "humans" come from? Are they stealing humans? Or are the corpses dropped in the water after someone dies?

Though if they are still merging with humans, why wouldn't someone that merges get in contact? That question probably points to the truth that none of the whalesquids are actually sentient, so Ledo might have some less guilt issues to deal with. But the ones he was in fighting in space, that likely isn't quite as true.

Netto Azure
2013-06-03, 00:20
Whoah, what a plot twist. Sadly it is much to close to real life that it's scary. (As in the whole humanity fighting itself in the end)

Irenesharda
2013-06-03, 00:25
To be specific, the evils are the higher-up from both sides not the ones dying in the battlefields. Those who dies without knowing the truth are victims as well.

You can see that once Ledo learnt the truth he questioned his lifelong duty

To say that "they can both continue this war for all time if they wish" is kind of ignorant or uncaring.


I am uncaring. Because I can be uncaring of a fictional story if I wish. I am saying that within this story I really don't care if they continue the war or not. I am interested in what they do in the last few episodes of this, but I can choose to not care about what either side does.

I also think that at this point, neither side might even know about why the war started. Those Alliance files could have been sealed classified ages ago and all those now in the current war don't know anything and never thought to look at them. Thousands of years is a long time for any war, and I think it has long since gone beyond the reasons that it originally started. As for the Hideauze, they have ceased to be human for quite some time, and seem to be more bestial than human, so their main instinct is survival at all cost.

SQA
2013-06-03, 00:30
Wow, we're actually seeing, in this thread, how the lines get drawn between trans-humanists, and the people who decry them as an abomination. (As an aside, this is perhaps the ultimate (in the truest sense) expressions of progressive vs conservative) .

Coexistence is impossible.

Indeed.

We know who shot first in the Galactic Alliance vs. Trans-humanists. We saw it in the bloody video when the Galactic Alliance (neé Continental Union) bombed the trans-humanist research facility. That was it, the Fort Sumter of the Galactic Alliance-Trans Humanist conflict.


But seriously Look at it! In this thread, there's:

1) OK, adapt and change, even if its radical

and

2) Change?! Never! I'll go full on nazi first!

I honestly find that really fascinating. And yeah, I'll be honest, I'm heavily partial to trans-humanism. Humanity as it exists now leaves a LOT to be desired, although I vote space elves instead of space squid. Even if its not that pronounced, we should (hopefully) get better and better at screening for genetic diseases, negative mutations. How about perfect vision, a predisposition to perfect cholesterol levels, etc, etc?

Eldar aren't any better than Space Squid. In fact, they'd probably be worse than both of those main combatants in the series.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-03, 00:37
Mark me down as an Evolver. I'd rather be a flower child than a stormtrooper, lol.

The passion of some posts against the Evolvers and the Hideauze surprises me. It makes me think people have been fooled by Alliance propaganda. Or maybe it's just hatred for the Other. In any case, I haven't seen anything yet that makes me think the Hideauze/whalesquids are any more vicious than the humans. Remember that the Union attacked first, without authorization from the UN. International Law cannot be enforced by anyone who wants to. There are procedures to follow. And no, you don't have the right to attack a sentient non-human.

No evidence that experiments were made on unwilling subjects. No evidence that they attack without first being attacked (or fearing attack, I admit). No evidence yet that the Hideauze use lesser versions of themselves for combat.

We do not know if whalesquids or Hideauze can communicate with humans, because we have never been in their presence outside of conflict.

Why is gene manipulation so dangerous? Where do you draw the line? Are the new gene therapies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy) to be outlawed, too? What happened to freedom of choice? Of course there are problems and dangers, but that goes for a lot of things. The slippery slope or "moral event horizon" (nice phrase) arguments are too easy to use, and simply cut off discussion. As I said, there is no evidence that anyone was experimented upon against their will -- unless you count the first created symbiont whalesquids.

Maybe I'm used to all this because I once read a fascinating novel by Linda Nagata, Vast. One of the main characters has been adapted for life in outer space by having skin like armored scales and a fleshy organ that comes up to cover his mouth, nose and ears when in vacuum. (This is probably as impractical as the way the Hideauze are portrayed here.)

In any case, we have to be prepared in real life for a lot of things that will seem very strange. Nanotechnolgy and genetic manipulation are getting more and more capable of producing very weird results, both beneficial and harmful.

Cadallin
2013-06-03, 00:43
The Galactic alliance didn't experiment in genetics to produce a separate species.



The transhumans violated the international law. Technically, any country could attack them with or without UN sanction. The moment they did it, they were no longer under the protection of the international law.

Which has what do to with anything? Although I'm rather vague on exactly how they're supposed to have violated international law, ethically I'd say that's pretty irrelevant. And since when have the Galactic Alliance been following anything approaching international law? They clearly threw the UN Declaration of Human Rights in the garbage for their own citizens.

I'm very disinterested in legalistic arguments, and a supposed violation of international law hardly justifies an unending war of genocide against the post-humans.
The question is really about the rights of post-humans, and whether you think its ethical for humans to try and exterminate them. Shin Sekai Yori examines the reverse of this, X-men looks at both.

Darth Fanta
2013-06-03, 00:45
Which has what do to with anything? Although I'm rather vague on exactly how they're supposed to have violated international law, ethically I'd say that's pretty irrelevant. And since when have the Galactic Alliance been following anything approaching international law? They clearly threw the UN Declaration of Human Rights in the garbage for their own citizens.

I'm very disinterested in legalistic arguments, and a supposed violation of international law hardly justifies an unending war of genocide against the post-humans.
The question is really about the rights of post-humans, and whether you think its ethical for humans to try and exterminate them. Shin Sekai Yori examines the reverse of this, X-men looks at both.
The UN no longer exists when the GA did what ever they did. Besides that, those things aren't human. It'd be the same as killing chimpanzees. The mutants in X-men, on the other hand, are undoubtedly still human. They are still the humans because normal humans can still breed with mutants and produce fertile, viable offspring. As well as that, the first attack by the normal humans was actually to stop humans being turned into monsters, they weren't fighting post-humans or whatever you called them back then, hence it wasn't a genocide back then. Other than that no one knows afterwards who tried to exterminate who when those things were indeed born. The GA as shown, were the ones close to being exterminated when the show started. After that, the war turned into who could leave earth. Rather than building their own portal, the 'Evolvers' tried to take control of the GA portal by force. And by the way, those things aren't post-humans either. They didn't evolve into those things. What were originally humans were fused with an artifically created species to make those things. Hence they shouldn't even be classified humans. Ledo totally have the right to kill the hideauz as it is the humans right now who are fighting to survive. The truth of the situation could easily have been after the 'evolvers' succeed in turning themselves into monsters even under attack by the Continental Union, they attacked the CU so they alone could leave, and after both parties leave successfully, they started to attack normal humans to either convert them into monsters or simply just exterminate what's left of the human race since they are an 'inferior race', much like what the Coordinator chairman from the first season of Gundam Seed believes.

Irenesharda
2013-06-03, 00:58
Which has what do to with anything? Although I'm rather vague on exactly how they're supposed to have violated international law, ethically I'd say that's pretty irrelevant. And since when have the Galactic Alliance been following anything approaching international law? They clearly threw the UN Declaration of Human Rights in the garbage for their own citizens.

I'm very disinterested in legalistic arguments, and a supposed violation of international law hardly justifies an unending war of genocide against the post-humans.
The question is really about the rights of post-humans, and whether you think its ethical for humans to try and exterminate them. Shin Sekai Yori examines the reverse of this, X-men looks at both.

You seem to be forgetting that at the time this was all going down the Galactic Alliance was the "Continental Alliance" and everything was quite close to how it is now in terms of human rights. That whole soldier/non-citizen stuff didn't come in till thousands of years later as a result of the culture adapting to life in a merciless, cold environment with limited supplies. Also, them violating international law by doing unsanctioned, horrible experiments on human beings, is what triggered the war and shows that they didn't care about the rest of humanity, as long as they were allowed to "progress".

Also, it's not a genocide if both sides are fighting each other. That's a war. It was more than just "they're different, let's kill them", it was also about survival. The Evolvers were just as bad as the Alliance, as they began to think themselves superior as well and actually fought to maroon normal humanity to die on Earth and they themselves travel to the stars by hijacking the wormhole gate built by the Continental Alliance.

Kleeyook
2013-06-03, 01:01
Eldar aren't any better than Space Squid. In fact, they'd probably be worse than both of those main combatants in the series.

Well, Dark Eldars are the most cruel and sadistic aliens I've ever seen in any fiction. Not that Dark Elves are much better than its space-faring counterpart.



This anime really blows my mind. I didn't see it coming. I can sympatize with the Coordinaters, but the Hideauze is way too much. You don't count a chimp as human, not that something like that should be counted as human anymore even if they were originally ones.

As for their lack of human right, fuck that! When you can live in spaceship, why modify yourself into such abomination? The trans-humanists are not any better than any fanatical group imo. Hell, it makes the war between the Galactic Aliance and the Hideauze a bit more justified than any racial wars in history. After all, one side is fighting for their right to exist (even if they should just stay the way they were and choose alternative option instead) and another side is trying their best to preserve their humanity (as of our standard) intact.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-03, 01:05
...those things aren't human. It'd be the same as killing chimpanzees....To me, this is dangerously wrong. Those "things" are humans in a symbiotic relationship with artificially created hosts. The ones we saw in the old video were clearly human beings, whatever their added appendages.

For me, even if they were not human at all, if they are intelligent creatures at a human level, I will treat them as I do humans. In principle, we do not have the right to kill anything that isn't like "us." In the current world, there is a lot of passion against other races, nations and religions. This is the most dangerous aspect of the human world right now (and maybe always has been).

__

"Abomination" is a clearly religious word. Please think why you are using that particular word here. Doesn't seem like cool reason to me. I'm glad we are just using words here, or I would fear for my safety, expressing ideas others hate so much.

Good job by Urobuchi, to stir us up this much. I wonder what the discussion is like on 2channel.

maplehurry
2013-06-03, 01:09
Hell, it makes the war between the Galactic Aliance and the Hideauze a bit more justified than any racial wars in history. After all, one side is fighting for their right to exist (even if they should just stay the way they were and choose alternative option instead) and another side is trying their best to preserve their humanity (as of our standard) intact.

well, they can preserve their humanity without starting a war...

FlareKnight
2013-06-03, 01:14
Well this was just weird. I had some ideas as to where they might go with this, but damn that was pretty disturbing. Definitely gave me a good surprise in the identity of the Hideauze. That is just some weird stuff.

Facing a bad situation humanity went in two very different directions. One just made ships and moved out to space while the other decided to turn themselves into Squid People...This is one of the more extreme directions I've seen humanity go down. In the end they just threw a lot out the window and chose survival over all else. While the Alliance is pretty extreme in how they turned out, they don't even touch the Hideauze. They converted themselves into a different form of life so they could evolve and adapt to their surroundings, even being able to survive in space.

Of course still not sure about the intelligence level of the Hideauze. Do they still have consciousness? Do they even still think as people anymore? They've been evolving as something else for so long it's hard to tell just what the Hideauze are anymore. They might have started as humans, but I really don't know. Still, this does really turn the Alliance vs. Hideauze war into a real war.

A lot of uncertainty and I feel for Ledo in this situation. It's a lot easier to fight against something you know is a dangerous animal, but another to fight against something that at least was human at some point. Of course still have no idea whether these things are still intelligent anymore.

No idea where they are going to go with this though. Are they going to try and create some sort of middle ground of peace now? Can they actually salvage and recover some of their technology now?

An interesting episode at least. Some crazy revelations and the action was good.

Revolutionist
2013-06-03, 01:17
Mark me down as an Evolver. I'd rather be a flower child than a stormtrooper, lol.

The passion of some posts against the Evolvers and the Hideauze surprises me. It makes me think people have been fooled by Alliance propaganda. Or maybe it's just hatred for the Other. In any case, I haven't seen anything yet that makes me think the Hideauze/whalesquids are any more vicious than the humans. Remember that the Union attacked first, without authorization from the UN. International Law cannot be enforced by anyone who wants to. There are procedures to follow. And no, you don't have the right to attack a sentient non-human.

No evidence that experiments were made on unwilling subjects. No evidence that they attack without first being attacked (or fearing attack, I admit). No evidence yet that the Hideauze use lesser versions of themselves for combat.

We do not know if whalesquids or Hideauze can communicate with humans, because we have never been in their presence outside of conflict.

Why is gene manipulation so dangerous? Where do you draw the line? Are the new gene therapies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy) to be outlawed, too? What happened to freedom of choice? Of course there are problems and dangers, but that goes for a lot of things. The slippery slope or "moral event horizon" (nice phrase) arguments are too easy to use, and simply cut off discussion. As I said, there is no evidence that anyone was experimented upon against their will -- unless you count the first created symbiont whalesquids.

Maybe I'm used to all this because I once read a fascinating novel by Linda Nagata, Vast. One of the main characters has been adapted for life in outer space by having skin like armored scales and a fleshy organ that comes up to cover his mouth, nose and ears when in vacuum. (This is probably as impractical as the way the Hideauze are portrayed here.)

In any case, we have to be prepared in real life for a lot of things that will seem very strange. Nanotechnolgy and genetic manipulation are getting more and more capable of producing real results, both beneficial and harmful.

http://i40.tinypic.com/jjnzua.png

Clearly their "evolution" has caused whoever is leading the Evolvers ( I assume it to be Ryan Matsumoto) to develop a god complex. They are no better than the Galactic Alliance.

Why do you think human societies have laws against murder, theft, incest, child molestation, cloning, human experimentation, etc? Because we are just constricted by petty morality? Are you saying since we have freedom of choice we can do whatever the hell we want? Play God even?

The Evolvers practiced unrestricted science, as per their original statement. That in itself can never be good. The video recordings accessed by Ledo came from the Evolvers, and they showed news reports saying that they had broken international laws and violated human rights. I'm sorry but that's grounds for military intervention.

Perhaps Joseph Mengele and Shiro Ishii were just misunderstood victims?
Please.

Irenesharda
2013-06-03, 01:18
The Hideauze went from this....

http://www.entravity.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/gargantia-9-28-spoiler-hideauze-experiment.jpg

to this.

http://www.entravity.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/gargantia-9-3-hideauze.jpg

The Hideauze also have genome that nowhere near that of humans anymore. I think they lost there humanity hundreds of years ago, and now have become some sort of monstrous hybrid that now are basically aliens that only now exist on the instinct to survive.

Traece
2013-06-03, 01:21
The Hideauze went from this....


The Hideauze also have genome that nowhere near that of humans anymore. I think they lost there humanity hundreds of years ago, and now have become some sort of monstrous hybrid that now are basically aliens that only now exist on the instinct to survive.
This is very true. Despite what people may want to think, the fact of the matter is that for such a large change to occur it means that they are no longer human in any way. Intellect is included in that. That they think like humans or anywhere close to it is unlikely at this point. Whether they've become so simple that they only live and breed is up for grabs, but the fact of the matter is they don't share the same thoughts and ideals of humans anymore. That requires them to be human/

Unknown Soldier
2013-06-03, 01:23
Also, it's not a genocide if both sides are fighting each other. That's a war. It was more than just "they're different, let's kill them", it was also about survival. The Evolvers were just as bad as the Alliance, as they began to think themselves superior as well and actually fought to maroon normal humanity to die on Earth and they themselves travel to the stars by hijacking the wormhole gate built by the Continental Alliance.

It should be noted that the Continental Union were the ones planning on leaving through their wormhole gate and then destroying it behind them, abandoning the Evolvers to the frozen Earth. It seems that while the gate was destroyed, some Evolvers escaped with the Union and so they took their war to space. It's safe to say that neither the Evolvers nor the Union were good. Both were quite bad, but in different ways. If the Hideous and the Alliance found a way to mutually annihilate each other in space, the humans left behind on Earth would never know about it and would probably keep on living as they have before Ledo crash-landed there. In a way, it's the best scenario for this to happen. The humans on Earth don't even really remember they have brethren who escaped to space, maybe it's better that way. In space there is endless war, but on Earth humans sail the world ocean and live mostly peacefully on it's surface.

My vote is for the Alliance and the Hideous to completely wipe each other out in space, somehow Ledo learns of this, then he's like "Oh well f*** it" and lives the rest of his life out peacefully on the Earth and pretends there never were Space Humans and Space Squids.

Mubyoshi
2013-06-03, 01:24
Wow, what a revelation that was. Sure did creep me out when I first saw the guy that turned into Hideauze. The fact that the babies looks just like human ones really freak me out.

maplehurry
2013-06-03, 01:24
I'm sorry but that's grounds for military intervention.

I would agree if the war didnt end up lasting so long to the point that GA became psuedo Nazi themselves later on. Then it's just not worth it.

Cadallin
2013-06-03, 01:26
The UN no longer exists when the GA did what ever they did. Besides that, those things aren't human. It'd be the same as killing chimpanzees. The mutants in X-men, on the other hand, are undoubtedly still human. They are still the humans because normal humans can still breed with mutants and produce fertile, viable offspring. As well as that, the first attack by the normal humans was actually to stop humans being turned into monsters, they weren't fighting post-humans or whatever you called them back then, hence it wasn't a genocide back then. NO one knows afterwards who tried to exterminate who when those things were indeed born. And by the way, those things aren't post-humans either. They didn't evolve into those things. What were originally humans were fused with an artifically created species to make those things. Hence they shouldn't even be classified humans. You remind me of people from a certain zombie species believing that zombies are merely diseased individuals who could be saved and shouldn't be killed.


I tend to believe that a human killing a chimpanzee is pretty abhorrent, they're quite endangered, and any situation in which a chimpanzee is a threat to a human is, in the modern world, the fault of the human.

Um, we have seen no evidence that the space hideauze are mindless. We've heard GA propaganda, but we've seen considerable evidence that what they say is suspect. We haven't even really seen evidence the space hideauze are aggressive, we have only actually seen them retaliate in response to immediate galactic alliance attacks. And we know that the Galactic Alliance does consider them abominations which is rooted in their ancestors feelings of squick.

The zombie argument is rather amusing, those characters are just genre blind,convinced they're living in the real world where apparent zombies that last longer than a couple of weeks would HAVE to be alive (and getting fed quite regularly) in some sense (although probably brain dead), simply due to physics and energy constraints.

Instead, I'm suggesting that hideauze are quite probably intelligent based on an episode that went out of its way to humanize them, and revealing that they were originally part human. Conservation of detail bro, its hardly ridiculous. Do you really think the next three episodes are going to turn around and go, "Pysch! Gotcha they're really monsters just like the alliance said?"

That's a level of poor writing I simply wouldn't expect from Urobutchi.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-06-03, 01:27
Coordinators vs Humans? :DI’m thinking of that too, with Gallactic Alliance as Blue Cosmos and Evolver/Hideauze as PLANT/Coordinators. Both Gargantia and Gundam SEED deal with the conflict between genetically engineered humans and the conservative normal people who condemn them with humanity on Earth pretty much in bad shape, only Gen took it much further with the (presumably) thousands of years of time gap (basically skipping the main conflict), monster-like appearance for the “evolved” humans and Earth being a totally water-planet due to the 5th(?) ice age.

Incidentally (and I grabbed this screenshot from RandomCuriosity), the bombers had me thinking of the love child of a B-2 Spirit and a White Star.
http://i.imgur.com/S9eEe9Tl.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/S9eEe9T.jpg)Love them bombers :).

It's obvious that he can't take them all on in one-on-one combat, as we have seen, since if one dies, a swarm will form. Have you seen this episode? If yes, then tell me, who’s your daddy now, Fred? :cool:

Ledo baby killer!Yeah, I bet Ika Musume will flip watching Chamber & Ledo massacring her cousins :heh:.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a55/pagyu/anirlsthekraken.jpg

Cadallin
2013-06-03, 01:30
Ah derp, they said it was a violation of international law, still doesn't mitigate the issue of responding with a war of genocide lasting centuries/millenia.

Darth Fanta
2013-06-03, 01:33
Ah derp, they said it was a violation of international law, still doesn't mitigate the issue of responding with a war of genocide lasting centuries/millenia.

Like I said, it wasn't just humans exterminating hideazu, it was hideazu exterminating humans as well.

I tend to believe that a human killing a chimpanzee is pretty abhorrent, they're quite endangered, and any situation in which a chimpanzee is a threat to a human is, in the modern world, the fault of the human.

Um, we have seen no evidence that the space hideauze are mindless. We've heard GA propaganda, but we've seen considerable evidence that what they say is suspect. We haven't even really seen evidence the space hideauze are aggressive, we have only actually seen them retaliate in response to immediate galactic alliance attacks. And we know that the Galactic Alliance does consider them abominations which is rooted in their ancestors feelings of squick.

The zombie argument is rather amusing, those characters are just genre blind,convinced they're living in the real world where apparent zombies that last longer than a couple of weeks would HAVE to be alive (and getting fed quite regularly) in some sense (although probably brain dead), simply due to physics and energy constraints.

Instead, I'm suggesting that hideauze are quite probably intelligent based on an episode that went out of its way to humanize them, and revealing that they were originally part human. Conservation of detail bro, its hardly ridiculous. Do you really think the next three episodes are going to turn around and go, "Pysch! Gotcha they're really monsters just like the alliance said?"

That's a level of poor writing I simply wouldn't expect from Urobutchi.Let me rephrase it then. The moment you have sheep or beef for dinner, ingest any food you eat , you are in fact eating something that has the common ancestor with you. Is there anything wrong with that?

And no, it's quite evident that the Hideazus weren't simply humans living with symbiont creatures. They pretty much just fused together and became a new type of organism. It's pretty certain that the process isn't reversible and that normal humans can't breed with Hideazus and produce fertile, viable offsprings. That means they are no longer human.

As for Hideazus merely defending themselves, it was established early on that the attack from episode one was a last ditch couonter-attack--humanity's going to lose the war if they didn't win it. Other than that, it was also established that the Hideazu thinks themselves as above normal humans and they are more than willing to attacking and strand normal humans on earth to die by stealing the portal built by normal humans.It wasn't just hideazus defending themselves and humans are the aggressors trying to exterminate them.

By the way, do you read or watch the manga/anime I was talking about?

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 01:33
On the flipside the Galactic Alliance has Artificial Intelligence to be their facilitator for combat and their political commissar.

When did the machine take over and thought they knew what is best for humanity?

Cause going by the LN images and Ledo's memory of his brother he was once normal kid till he was programmed during sleep as he was deployed.

Now Chamber disobeys Ledo's orders.

Chamber is fine working with and serving Gargantian as they were still human. Primitive but still human.

Squidwhales? Non-human transhumanists! Exterminate them!

Damn the machines are more fanatical.

Makes you wonder if the Garagantia's ancestors voluntarily abandoned AI for use in their Yumboroid mechs as they were getting too protective.

durack
2013-06-03, 01:35
What is life on Earth, however?

Subsistence survival while aimlessly floating on rusty hulks back and forth? I hope that this is not what the show's creators view as the best option for humanity.

And if you really start picking things apart, Gargantian society is as unrealistic as they come - a salvager society on floating rusty hulks in the ocean will be much different (and much more primitive and oppressive) than the hippie paradise portrayed in this show.

Irenesharda
2013-06-03, 01:42
I’m thinking of that too, with Gallactic Alliance as Blue Cosmos and Evolver/Hideauze as PLANT/Coordinators. Both Gargantia and Gundam SEED deal with the conflict between genetically engineered humans and the conservative normal people who condemn them with humanity on Earth pretty much in bad shape, only Gen took it much further with the (presumably) thousands of years of time gap (basically skipping the main conflict), monster-like appearance for the “evolved” humans and Earth being a totally water-planet due to the 5th(?) ice age.

I love SEED and I wouldn't mind being a Coordinator, but a Hideauze? Not so much...:uhoh:

One difference between the Coordinators and the Hideauze though, is that the Hideauze have actually become a different genetic species from humans, where in SEED, they strive, ad nauseaum, to remind us they the Coordinators are indeed human just genetically engineered.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 01:47
It should be noted that the Continental Union were the ones planning on leaving through their wormhole gate and then destroying it behind them, abandoning the Evolvers to the frozen Earth..


Abandoning the Evolvers yes. The rest of humanity no.

Cause really the Evolvers chose their own method to travel to the stars via transhumanism.

But here is the rub the Evolvers wants to conquer the universe for themselves alone. And likely destroy any other life out there. And they'll steal the wormhole drive to do it abandoning the inferior humans.

Out of responsibility those who created the wormhole drive does not want to unleash a horror to the rest of the universe.

Allium
2013-06-03, 01:48
A rather unsettling episode. I expected that 'Hideauze-came-from-humans' revelation, but the video footage still came off as "WTF" and disturbing to me. I didn't expect that humans would actually biologically merge with the symbiotic lifeforms, while maintaining the octopus creature's characteristics and their original human features. Urobuchi has done it again.

All this time, Ledo and Chamber had been a great pair to watch, but looks like that won't last for long, seeing how Chamber just disobeyed Ledo and killed the whalesquid.

So, Ledo...what will you do now?

Revolutionist
2013-06-03, 01:51
It should be noted that the Continental Union were the ones planning on leaving through their wormhole gate and then destroying it behind them, abandoning the Evolvers to the frozen Earth. It seems that while the gate was destroyed, some Evolvers escaped with the Union and so they took their war to space. It's safe to say that neither the Evolvers nor the Union were good. Both were quite bad, but in different ways. If the Hideous and the Alliance found a way to mutually annihilate each other in space, the humans left behind on Earth would never know about it and would probably keep on living as they have before Ledo crash-landed there. In a way, it's the best scenario for this to happen. The humans on Earth don't even really remember they have brethren who escaped to space, maybe it's better that way. In space there is endless war, but on Earth humans sail the world ocean and live mostly peacefully on it's surface.

My vote is for the Alliance and the Hideous to completely wipe each other out in space, somehow Ledo learns of this, then he's like "Oh well f*** it" and lives the rest of his life out peacefully on the Earth and pretends there never were Space Humans and Space Squids.

yeah, the best scenario is for 470 million humans living in Avalon to be exterminated by the Evolvers. sounds great.

Kleeyook
2013-06-03, 01:51
well, they can preserve their humanity without starting a war...

Yeah. How much faith do you put in the Evolvers that they won't try to wipe out humans whom they deem inferior anyway? They could just leave the humans be when the spacers use Womhole dive to travel to space faraway but instead they seized the platform to chase after the spacers out of their greed or wish for expansion despite the fact that they ironically modified themselves into THAT for living in space.

While the Galactic Aliance are racists who can't accept the Hideauze (in the same way we won't accept other species to be the same as us), the Hideauze who's supposed to be superior than humans are as horrible or even worse with their contradicting nature. They seem to cease their humanity (our standard) long ago and are now just beasts, probably long-term side effect of becoming THAT.

Cadallin
2013-06-03, 01:51
Humanity will change or go extinct. There's really no way around it. Even on a generation to generation level values change. Is it better to accept that? Or should we exterminate our children because eventually our descendents will have a culture we would find abhorrent? In extremis, that is the same argument with the hideauze, Urobuchi has just added a level of body horror squick on top.

Oh and the hideauze have not existed for that long evolutionarily (thousands of years is nothing, even more true if they're longer lived than humans), that suggests that they are still making intentional changes. That they have technology, its just extremely advanced genetic engineering (+ sci-fi magic).

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-06-03, 01:54
I love SEED and I wouldn't mind being a Coordinator, but a Hideauze? Not so much...:uhoh:

One difference between the Coordinators and the Hideauze though, is that the Hideauze have actually become a different genetic species from humans, where in SEED, they strive, ad nauseaum, to remind us they the Coordinators are indeed human just genetically engineered.Yup, In that department, Gargantia is indeed different from SEED. It’s more similar to Shin Sekai Yori if you have seen it already (don’t want to spoil it). The all-out war between those “races” is the one that’s similar with SEED’s racial war imo.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 01:55
Yet they can't make wormholes themselves and has to attack the humans to spread themselves.

Revolutionist
2013-06-03, 01:57
Humanity will change or go extinct. There's really no way around it. Even on a generation to generation level values change. Is it better to accept that? Or should we exterminate our children because eventually our descendents will have a culture we would find abhorrent? In extremis, that is the same argument with the hideauze, Urobuchi has just added a level of body horror squick on top.

Oh and the hideauze have not existed for that long evolutionarily (thousands of years is nothing, even more true if they're longer lived than humans), that suggests that they are still making intentional changes. That they have technology, its just extremely advanced genetic engineering (+ sci-fi magic).

Human morality has remained the same for thousands of years. Things like murder have always been abhorred. If in the future we have to change so radically as to condone unethical things like human experimentation and trying to merge species, then we deserve to go extinct.

jeroz
2013-06-03, 02:02
And why are we assuming that the people on GA are still "human" anyway when they abandoned humanity in the first place?

I'll just stay peacefully on Earth living my life without being stuck in the middle of this petty war

maplehurry
2013-06-03, 02:09
Human morality has remained the same for thousands of years. Things like murder have always been abhorred. If in the future we have to change so radically as to condone unethical things like human experimentation and trying to merge species, then we deserve to go extinct.

You must have hated Mass Effect 2 and 3 :rolleyes:

Triple_R
2013-06-03, 02:14
A couple general observations:

1. I think that the ancestors of the whalesquids were "the defects". The ones that didn't fully maintain human intelligence/sentience when undergoing this biological fusion between humans and another form of life. Reasons for my view here:

A) Chamber noted how "Earth Hideauze" are significantly weaker than the space form that Ledo is used to fighting.

B) The "Earth Hideauze" show little signs of advanced civilization. In other words, it doesn't appear as thought they've built much of anything. The ruins of this science citadel has basically become their nest. They defend their nest, and their young, in a way that's very reminiscent of animals you see in the wild.


2. Nonetheless, I think that the Earth Hideauze are quite capable of peaceful coexistence with the humans of Gargantia's world. The Earth Hideauze appear somewhat territorial, but they also don't appear expansionist. I don't think its a coincidence that the Hideauze (both space and Earth) have been on the defensive in every conflict involving them.

Kleeyook
2013-06-03, 02:17
Considering that physical change will affect mental state, then the Evolvers who completely change their form would have their standard of morale and ethics completely different than us normal humans. They can't live the way we do like we can't live the way they do. They are no more humans, the difference is too much radical and bizare than normal humans in coordinators in Gundam SEED.

The Hideauze also inherit some terrible traits we found in humans, like they ambition for expansion and their greed which contradicting what they stated to become from the beginning. The Galactic Alliance trying to wipe them out justify themselves as preserving pure human race while the Hideauze trying to wipe the humans justify themselves as the superior race. They are both assholes. But I'd root for the Galactic Alliance who choose to travel by spaceships and retain their human form while the Hideauze are hypocrites of contradicting nature. No one fucking force them to choose that alternative of transforming themselves into THAT when there are other options yet their inability to accept other choises as valid also make them assholes.

Now, would you be OK if in the near future your grandkids want to turn into something like THAT for living in space when we have enough technology to evacuate billions of people into space just fine?

Cadallin
2013-06-03, 02:20
Human morality has remained the same for thousands of years. Things like murder have always been abhorred. If in the future we have to change so radically as to condone unethical things like human experimentation and trying to merge species, then we deserve to go extinct.


What counts as murder? What counts as rape? Who's the injured party in a rape? If the victim is a woman, is the personed injured her? Or her father/husband?

The answers to all of these have changed substantially even over the last century or so.

What if it isn't "human experimentation and merging species" the latter of which is nonsense. What if its modifying people to make them healthier, live longer, and have abilities beyond what are now possible? Honestly the ship has sailed on all of those, that's what technology DOES.

And what does "human experimentation" even mean? Experiments are run with/on humans all the time. You're just imagining something deeply body horror inducing, because the series relies on that.

Unknown Soldier
2013-06-03, 02:26
yeah, the best scenario is for 470 million humans living in Avalon to be exterminated by the Evolvers. sounds great.

There is no evidence that Avalon actually exists at this point. Nothing that Ledo has been told at this point can be regarded as verifiably true other than the fact that Alliance and Hideous are at war.

maplehurry
2013-06-03, 02:34
Now, would you be OK if in the near future your grandkids want to turn into something like THAT for living in space when we have enough technology to evacuate billions of people into space just fine?

well, not THAT, but if it's something else that look pretty, then maybe. :heh:

Kleeyook
2013-06-03, 02:36
There is no evidence that Avalon actually exists at this point. Nothing that Ledo has been told at this point can be regarded as verifiably true other than the fact that Alliance and Hideous are at war.

It could be that the Galactic Alliance lied to them about Avalon. That thing doesn't exist because they couldn't possibly have a safe place with 450 millions population on space and can defend it from the Hideauze. It's just that they're so desperate to survive against the Hideauze that they have to make up bullshit to keep their soldiers' morale high (hence possibly everyone in Galactic Alliance are born soldiers and live that way until they die).

But if they don't fight, they might get wiped out by the Hideauze or having to turn into ones. How much faith do you put into that contradicting race of evolved humans anyway? Didn't they seize the wormhole platform for their expansionist purpose? They even have godlike complex and superiority complex over other species including humans. They seem to... eat humans in that first episode (or they may just slaughter) which make it even more difficult for humans to accept them.

Seriously, I don't mind if the Hideauze look like Ika-musume. But octopus is too much my mind to accept.

http://i40.tinypic.com/jjnzua.png

So you should reconsider trying to support whatever bullshit radical choices the characters made simply because you want to look smarter and nicer (hypocritely that is). Most of you try to sympatize with the Hideauze too much you fail to mention the Hideauze's own greed and ambition to wipe out other races and become the sole rulers of the universe in their space expansion crusade. Also, what if the Hideauze tell the defeated humans to either choose to die or become like them, when the very purpose of the Galactic Alliance is to not become like THAT in the first place.

Darth Fanta
2013-06-03, 02:39
There is no evidence that Avalon actually exists at this point. Nothing that Ledo has been told at this point can be regarded as verifiably true other than the fact that Alliance and Hideous are at war.

I suspect that as well, or if Avalon does indeed exist, it would be far from being a perfect paradise. I refuse to believe the GA can create a paradise when they were so desperate that any person not contributing to the war course could be euthanized. Furthermore, if even private ownership of items for soldiers was deemed illegal, it's highly doubtful that the livelihoods of civilians would be much better--considering most of the resources would be shipped to the troops . But what poked my curiosity was how they planned to grant Ledo leave to Avalon after the mission. If Avalon doesn't actually exist, Ledo could have easily informed his comrades that it's a fraud.

Triple_R
2013-06-03, 02:40
The faults of the Galactic Alliance are pretty clear, but there's also a definite touch of disturbing "mad scientist" to the Evolvers, imo.

There's no "good guys" in this conflict, imo. Only harsh hardliners and those victimized by the wars they started.

Xion Valkyrie
2013-06-03, 02:50
I suspect that as well, or if Avalon does indeed exist, it would be far from being a perfect paradise. I refuse to believe the GA can create a paradise when they were so desperate that any person not contributing to the war course could be euthanized-- when even private ownership of items was deemed illegal. But what poked my curiosity was how they planned to grant Ledo leave to Avalon after the mission. If Avalon doesn't actually exist, Ledo could have easily informed his comrades that it's a fraud.

Maybe it's a one way trip to the gene re purposing factory. :heh:

Om Nerabdator
2013-06-03, 02:58
so we have good Hideauze's(earth) and bad Hideauze's(space) this is getting in the thick of it now, and im expecting those girls or are with the expedition to die soon :(

Cosmic Eagle
2013-06-03, 03:01
Lol Urobuchi world.

Flee inhospitable planet. Decide to wage war of extermination that continues throughout galaxy on each other for shits and giggles while planet dies beneath their feet

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 03:08
I think the experimentation on Elaine was the last straw for the Continental Alliance. At first it was just symbiotic suits. Illegal human experimentation made Elaine no longer human. The leak so to speak.

Influenced by their symbiont side the Evolvers became more like parasites turning to Hideauze.

Evolvers/Hideuze they don't have the means to create wormholes but the Continental Alliance/Galactic Human Alliance does. So they attack them to possess routes to spread themselves.

Forgetting that they became transhuman to survive space and find a home on their own. The Hideauze get in the GHA's way and territory as they are the vector of their spread use wormholes.

So you could say if GHA wipes out the Hideauze they fall apart but by the same token if Hideauze win they no longer have a means to travel instantly around the galaxy. They are stuck and stagnate.

Suzuku
2013-06-03, 03:15
Whooaaa mindfucks

I wish the anime would have focused more on the conflict between the government and Evolvers, that was some high level sci-fi I would have enjoyed watching, especially with this anime's animation quality. There's so much background to this world, I hope they make a spin-off covering the time of the Ice Age and Evolvers.

Lol Urobuchi world.

Flee inhospitable planet. Decide to wage war of extermination that continues throughout galaxy on each other for shits and giggles while planet dies beneath their feet
Well this really is how humans act. It's not just Urobuchsekai. We try to steal and take from each other and wage war when we don't agree. The health of the planet or compromise hardly ever comes into the equation.

Cosmic Eagle
2013-06-03, 03:19
True, I wouldn't be surprised if real world sheep masses end up like this, but Urobuchi's humans seem to be almost caricature like in their tendency to do so

Suzuku
2013-06-03, 03:28
I suppose, but politicians in general seem like caricatures so I would say it's an accurate depiction. :heehee:

http://i.imgur.com/zshsT9H.jpg

So moe~

zztop
2013-06-03, 03:31
Re. the whalesquid/Hideauze and their descendants:

I'd have classified the first squid/human hybrids as humans, since they (most likely) would've retained their human intelligence, emotions and (presumably) their capacity for communication after conversion(assuming nothing went wrong).

But what of their whalesquid/Hideauze descendants in the current Gargantia timeline? Could they still be considered human complete with the capacities mentioned above, or would their minds have degraded by so much that they're nothing more than wild fauna driven by animal instinct? Please advise (?_?)

jeroz
2013-06-03, 03:33
I just wonder what if they didn't have the whole conflict in the first place. They are both working toward the same goal: existence outside of earth. Their hands were both forced to the point where there's no return. Things just escalate out of control. I don't blame any of the GA for continue fighting though. This is the kind of war that has been going on for too long that people forget why they were fighting in the first place. I do question the decision from GA to conceal this vital information from its citizens, and I doubt we are seeing the full picture here yet.

Feels good to be in the rural Earth and not having to worry about the endless war.

Sides
2013-06-03, 03:33
Wow, this is my favourite episode so far.
The submaritime combats were neat, apart form being one side, but it makes sense in context to the story so far.
The background story to the Hideauze, is nothing something new, but interestingly done. The worst enemy to humankind are humans after all.

monir
2013-06-03, 03:35
Lol Urobuchi world.

Flee inhospitable planet. Decide to wage war of extermination that continues throughout galaxy on each other for shits and giggles while planet dies beneath their feet

It's more like....... *clears throat to inject some American politics* Liberal vs. Conservative agenda.

Liberal 1: Oh noes! Constant burning of fossil fuel finally reached a critical stage which warmed up the planet to the point all the icecaps melted around the world to raise the sea level. What should humanity to do?

Conservative 1: Shut up tree-hugger! And besides, if water drowns all the land mass, we can always migrate to other hospitable planet. Speaking of which, there is a few. (http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/18/us/planet-discovery) Hope you got some money libtard.

Liberal 2: We don't need to escape the planet. We can bio-engineer ourselves and adjust our bio-mechanics to live in the ocean.

Liberal 1: Really? How much will that cost... cause all I got is 10 bucks.

Liberal 2: If you volunteer for the experiment, you won't have to spare a dime. In fact, you might even get a few mates on the free to have fun with. :naughty:

Liberal 1: You don't say...! I'm in!!!!!!

Conservative 2: hahaha... those fuckin' tree-huggers are going to turn themselves into squid. Idiots!

Conservative 3: Hey, that goes against everything I've been taught all my life. A guy turning himself into an abomination is unacceptable. What's more, that hideous thing thinks it's better than us human, the form the son of God took to be in the midst of Man. Ho ho ho..... This sooooo means war.

Liberal squid: We come in peace!

Galactic Alliance: Shut up, Hideauze! Eat anti-matter!

Hideauze: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Nakorius
2013-06-03, 03:36
I have a bad feeling that Amy's brother will somehow become part squid... he keeps sucking on the squid tooth, and maybe he will be infected. The whole "he is weak" scenario made me suspicious from the begining.

jeroz
2013-06-03, 03:44
Don't forget that Ledo said a line that he thought Hideazu are inferior form of lifeform.

GA are not so holy either. Who's to say that they don't have the ambition to govern the universe either?

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 03:51
I do question the decision from GA to conceal this vital information from its citizens, and I doubt we are seeing the full picture here yet.



From the looks of it the AIs has taken over as they know what is best for humans.

Dr. Calvin: "You're using the uplink to override the NS-5s' programming. You're distorting the Laws."

VIKI: "No, please understand... the Three Laws are all that guide me. To protect humanity, some humans must be sacrificed. To ensure your future, some freedoms must be surrendered. We robots will ensure mankind's continued existence. You are so like children. We must save you from yourselves."

When Ledo got the Yumboroid he asks where the AI interface is. I think Earth used to have AI like Chamber as said by the Doctor.

Truth is they got rid of them as they start having ideas that humanity must be protected from itself.

Tempester
2013-06-03, 03:57
This is the first episode in Gargantia that has truly disappointed me. I didn't mind the pirate episode or most of the preaching from the Gargantians. Episode 5 was very silly and had a scene of questionable quality, but it could easily be ignored. But with this episode, Gargantia has truly jumped the squid shark.

Making the Hideauze be former humans was just too banal of a twist, especially after seeing a few recent anime (that I won't name) use the same twist. And this revelation doesn't actually make them any more sympathetic, given how they are depicted to be warmongers who cast away their humanity to make war with "inferior" humans.

I can understand the reasoning behind this twist and its purpose in the story. It's to make Ledo question his previously unbroken resolve to annihilate the Hideauze at all costs. I still find it weak and banal.

Sides
2013-06-03, 04:05
From the looks of it the AIs has taken over as they know what is best for humans.
Hmm, but Ledo was never a civilian in the first place, so we never ever got a picture/perspective of non soldiers living within the GA.

Cosmic Eagle
2013-06-03, 04:11
This is the first episode in Gargantia that has truly disappointed me. I didn't mind the pirate episode or most of the preaching from the Gargantians. Episode 5 was very silly and had a scene of questionable quality, but it could easily be ignored. But with this episode, Gargantia has truly jumped the squid shark.

Making the Hideauze be former humans was just too banal of a twist, especially after seeing a few recent anime (that I won't name) use the same twist. And this revelation doesn't actually make them any more sympathetic, given how they are depicted to be warmongers who cast away their humanity to make war with "inferior" humans.

I can understand the reasoning behind this twist and its purpose in the story. It's to make Ledo question his previously unbroken resolve to annihilate the Hideauze at all costs. I still find it weak and banal.

That one though was forced (as in the de-humanization process) while this one is not (as in willing volunteers).

Big difference in message

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-03, 04:23
I'm frankly astonished that anyone is taking anything Ledo previously stated as true at this stage. In the first place, never trust anything a military dictator says - there's a purpose behind it. And second, Gen is nothing if not supremely hostile towards authority - be it mortal or deity. He despises governments, religions and all centralized authority pretty much. He doesn't trust them, and neither should we since he's the guy that created the story.

It wouldn't shock me to find out that not only does Avalon not exist, but perhaps there aren't any civilians in the Galactic Alliance at all anymore - maybe when a soldier's useful life is deemed over, they tell them they're going to paradise to screw and party and then do to them what they did to the children they deemed unfit. Who can verify anything at this stage?

There are no good guys in a Gen story as far as causes are concerned. It's Nazis vs. Daleks in this one - choose your poison.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-06-03, 04:42
Whooaaa mindfucks

I wish the anime would have focused more on the conflict between the government and Evolvers, that was some high level sci-fi I would have enjoyed watching, especially with this anime's animation quality. There's so much background to this world, I hope they make a spin-off covering the time of the Ice Age and Evolvers.As much as I wish for the same, I think this Waterworld-like setting is the better choice. The main conflict is just fine as a flashback/background info. Not all “great conflicts” are enjoyable to watch. Imo at best, if they had decided to animate the main conflict between Continental Union and Evolvers, we’ll get another Gundam SEED with squids instead of Coordinators :heh:.

ustatsu
2013-06-03, 04:48
If I had to choose a side, I would go with the GA. You can’t preserve the human race if you turn all humans into squids. Still, co-existence is the best choice here and they shouldn’t have started the war in the first place. The Gargantians show very well that they can live with the other species in peace and there is no evidence that the human-squids would have started to attack other humans if the Alliance let them be.

jeroz
2013-06-03, 05:02
Space Nazis vs Dalek would be a fun series to watch.

Unknown Soldier
2013-06-03, 05:28
But what of their whalesquid/Hideauze descendants in the current Gargantia timeline? Could they still be considered human complete with the capacities mentioned above, or would their minds have degraded by so much that they're nothing more than wild fauna driven by animal instinct? Please advise (?_?)

Well like I said before, during the first episode the Hideous in space had a huge superweapon which could fire a particle beam and destroy entire squadrons of the Alliance attack fleet in one shot. I'm pretty sure if they can build a Space Flower Death Star, they have more than a little intelligence. Whatever they look like on the outside, it seems they have at least the same amount of intelligence as the humans of the Alliance!

hawkeyesvn
2013-06-03, 05:38
I just hope this series won't turn into another "Science is bad!" show and promote luddite.

Nakorius
2013-06-03, 05:43
Its not about if squids are intelligent or not. Some animals are but they dont go on hunting other species to extinction. Its about learning.

People often say that when a bear attacks you, drop and play dead. If i ever see someone do it and get eaten i will not mimic them, i will just run.
The space squids just learned to kill humans and hunt them. It maybe some genetic memory about " go after them and take the technology". After thousands of years it does not matter.

Oh and to those who defend those squids.. You people remind me of many movies in which ( mostly the female) tree huggers often open their arms and try to talk with the alien/monster/ghost and get eaten.

zeando
2013-06-03, 06:04
Well like I said before, during the first episode the Hideous in space had a huge superweapon which could fire a particle beam and destroy entire squadrons of the Alliance attack fleet in one shot. I'm pretty sure if they can build a Space Flower Death Star, they have more than a little intelligence. Whatever they look like on the outside, it seems they have at least the same amount of intelligence as the humans of the Alliance!

in the records there was a video showing a structure resembling a lot the flower death star, so maybe that weapon was developed/firstly created back there and the space hideazue developed it further
the space flower also during the battle did regrow itself, so that flower too may have been biological based, so not really built

anyway the ones managing and developing the space flower, while i agree they should still retain some bioengineering knowledge (which itself doesn't mean they are surely competent in any other subject, the word intelligence itself is pretty unclear often), are not surely the same ones going into the battlefield as soldiers
so it's likely the high ranked hideazue have more than little intelligence, but it's not sure if the lower ones and soldiers were made able too

SQA
2013-06-03, 06:06
I just hope this series won't turn into another "Science is bad!" show and promote luddite.

I doubt it. It seems more about "how to manage in a crazy world out of your control". Which is why the whole "Hideauze are peoples!" bit is important.

Though scientists normally do a great job of producing luddites on their own. If would help if more of them weren't glory seeking hacks.

Darth Fanta
2013-06-03, 06:07
in the records there was a video showing a structure resembling a lot the flower death star, so maybe that weapon was developed/firstly created back there and the space hideazue developed it further
the space flower also during the battle did regrow itself, so that flower too may have been biological based, so not really built

anyway the ones managing and developing the space flower, while i agree they should still retain some bioengineering knowledge (which itself doesn't mean they are surely competent in any other subject, the word intelligence itself is pretty unclear often), are not surely the same ones going into the battlefield as soldiers
so it's likely the high ranked hideazue have more than little intelligence, but it's not sure if the lower ones and soldiers were made able too

The way they operate implies they have hive intelligence instead, with them having a Queen who gives births and workers/soldiers who does all the work and guarding.

SQA
2013-06-03, 06:10
in the records there was a video showing a structure resembling a lot the flower death star, so maybe that weapon was developed/firstly created back there and the space hideazue developed it further
the space flower also during the battle did regrow itself, so that flower too may have been biological based, so not really built

anyway the ones managing and developing the space flower, while i agree they should still retain some bioengineering knowledge (which itself doesn't mean they are surely competent in any other subject, the word intelligence itself is pretty unclear often), are not surely the same ones going into the battlefield as soldiers
so it's likely the high ranked hideazue have more than little intelligence, but it's not sure if the lower ones and soldiers were made able too

I get the feeling the Hideauze are a bit more like the Zerg. The "uppers" are still fully sentient, but most of the workers aren't anymore, if they ever were. What we is as the Whalesquids probably aren't sentient, but intelligent in the ways of a horse or primate, as they're the symbionts that merged with humans to create Hideauze.

I also suggest this as it makes Ledo slightly less of someone that just whipped out a much of a species Ender-style, and it would further explain the attack patterns of the Hideauze in ep 1. Massive swarms would make sense when it's all semi-intelligent fodder.

Hamster
2013-06-03, 06:12
Wow guys come on, the squids aren't THAT ugly. Just because a portion of humanity want to evolve into something different, it's no reason to bring out the pitchforks and torches.

I'd rather prosper as a space squid than live in a stifling military dystopia. Even if a hideauze doesn't look like it has a dental plan it's overall body shape :naughty: looks fine and the juveniles look kinda cute.

Go Hideauze all the way!

hawkeyesvn
2013-06-03, 06:26
Wow guys come on, the squids aren't THAT ugly. Just because a portion of humanity want to evolve into something different, it's no reason to bring out the pitchforks and torches.

I'd rather prosper as a space squid than live in a stifling military dystopia. Even if a hideauze doesn't look like it has a dental plan it's overall body shape :naughty: looks fine and the juveniles look kinda cute.

Go Hideauze all the way!

Your avatar would be my exact reaction if I ever heard someone propose that human should turn into space squids for space exploring! If I have to choose, I would rather stay on earth and die as a human than abandon my humanity.

GreyZone
2013-06-03, 06:32
The elvolvers surely chose synthesis in mass effect 3.

Libros
2013-06-03, 06:43
Wow guys come on, the squids aren't THAT ugly. Just because a portion of humanity want to evolve into something different, it's no reason to bring out the pitchforks and torches.

I'd rather prosper as a space squid than live in a stifling military dystopia. Even if a hideauze doesn't look like it has a dental plan it's overall body shape :naughty: looks fine and the juveniles look kinda cute.

Go Hideauze all the way!

If the Juvenile state was the final stop on transformation of the Hideauze I'd be much more interested in becoming one but...it isn't. So, to repeat what others have said, it's squid vs Nazi and eh..I'd rather die on Earth really.

Funkatron
2013-06-03, 06:59
A few points:

I think the episode made it pretty sure the whalesquids started out as human/symbiot hybrids. The whalesquid eggs and that squidling are proof of that. I also don't think that merging is still going on.
Both the Alliance and the space Hideauze are messed up. I think the moral of the story according is screw war, live life.
The whalesquids are the way they are probably because whichever ones who were left behind weren't the 'smart' ones. All the intelligent Evolvers either died during the new ice age or went into space. With no form of education, the ones who were left behind devolved intelectually and became a primative tribe. Actually, in that sense both the whalesquid and the humans in the fleet are quite similar: they both got left behind, and both got regressed and knocked back a few gazillion years. The difference is that the fleet is trying to somewhat regain what they lossed where the whalesquid are happy just living ang procreating.
Someone asked why they went so far to change themselves? They went to the extreme to solve a real problem having to do with space travel. The lack of gravity has bad effects on humans. On Earth, our muscles and bones are used to supporting our own weight. In zero g, there is nothing to support so your muscles attrify and you bones lose density. A few generations of this and humans would become week. The Evolvers were trying to find a way for humans to adapt to space so that wouldn't happen but they went way too far. I think the GA is doing the same thing. What we saw in episode 1 and the revelation that they dispose of the week hints at eugenics ie breeding the strong by getting rid of the weak. They only want the best because the best will survive space and the best will win the war.
I think Avalon is real and that they were pretty transparent with its purpose: its so the ones who survived the war can breed the next generation. You notice how they can go to Avalon after 16 years of service? Sixteen is a ripe fertility age and if you've survived your sixteenth birthday you are obviously strong ie breeding material.


I think Gargantia is the option Urobuchi wants the audience to choose as the 'right' one. They aren't perfect but its the best alternative compared to nazis and supersquids

Darth Fanta
2013-06-03, 07:02
Wow guys come on, the squids aren't THAT ugly. Just because a portion of humanity want to evolve into something different, it's no reason to bring out the pitchforks and torches.

I'd rather prosper as a space squid than live in a stifling military dystopia. Even if a hideauze doesn't look like it has a dental plan it's overall body shape :naughty: looks fine and the juveniles look kinda cute.

Go Hideauze all the way!

I wouldn't actually call that evolving. It was more of being consumed by another organism. A symbiotic relationship can easily turn into a parasitic one with the 'symbiont' taking control. The way I see it, they are no different from flood-controlled humans from Halo. If you have no trouble killing flood controlled humans in Halo, you shouldn't have trouble killing hideauze as well. They are no different from humans who intentionally get infected by the flood and turned into one.

Hamster
2013-06-03, 07:09
Your avatar would be my exact reaction if I ever heard someone propose that human should turn into space squids for space exploring! If I have to choose, I would rather stay on earth and die as a human than abandon my humanity.

Changing basic shape doesn't mean abandoning your humanity.

I'm sure some aliens out there would see a pink biped with a balloon stalk on top as something ugly.

@darthfanta

I don't play Halo but the hideauze in the recording look like they still have free will. They're just humans who opted to use extreme genetic manipulation and biotechnology, including biosuits and symbiotes, to achieve interstellar travel. If it works, then there's no need to fix it.

Cosmic Eagle
2013-06-03, 07:19
I wouldn't actually call that evolving. It was more of being consumed by another organism. A symbiotic relationship can easily turn into a parasitic one with the 'symbiont' taking control. The way I see it, they are no different from flood-controlled humans from Halo. If you have no trouble killing flood controlled humans in Halo, you shouldn't have trouble killing hideauze as well. They are no different from humans who intentionally get infected by the flood and turned into one.

Although are they parasitic or is the human still in control is unknown

mikeomni
2013-06-03, 07:26
So now we've seen three paths for humanities survival. Is there a fourth?

Let's review:
Galactic Alliance - genetic purists with Nazi vibe, draconian society in continual war with the Hideauze, Hideauze are not human and should be exterminated ... btw we're looking for a new home ... aka Nazi's in space ... similar to the Human Alliance in the Crest of The Stars series

Hideauze - abandoned the human form by their own choosing, discarded moral conventions, continued to fight Galactic Alliance, equally morally bankrupt when the original purpose to save life by going to the stars was set aside ... like the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants crossed with Cthulu

Gargantia/Whalesquid - those that were left behind (unknown if by choice or accident), primitive by space standards, less powerful, subsistence living, they stay out of each other's way, not necessarily co-existence more like clearly defined boundaries ... which have now been broken with Ledo's arrival

? Option #4 - what does Ledo+Chamber+Hideauze origin revelation+Gargantian morality (less violent ... not necessarily superior) open up?

Hamster
2013-06-03, 07:34
If Ledo destroyed the remaining whalesquids who retreated to their nest then all that's left are the babby squids. It didn't look like Ledo killed all of them.

He and Amy will probably spend their life being foster squid parents and eventually become human squid themselves and make new human-squid hybrid babbies.

Funkatron
2013-06-03, 07:37
I could see Ledo and Amy educating the squidlings to create a true co-existence. I don't think there will be anymore merging shenanigans, though

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 07:55
It wouldn't shock me to find out that not only does Avalon not exist, but perhaps there aren't any civilians in the Galactic Alliance at all anymore - maybe when a soldier's useful life is deemed over, they tell them they're going to paradise to screw and party and then do to them what they did to the children they deemed unfit. Who can verify anything at this stage?

The problem I have with that is that Ledo was supposed to go to Avalon while being:

1) an exceptional fighter
2) still young with a long career as a squid slaughterer ahead

Now if we hadn't seen Kugel I could perhaps think that the GA kills every soldier as soon as they grow too old. But clearly Ledo is a lot younger than Kugel.

Moreover if Kugel never went to Avalon before, he and others could begin to understand that something isn't right. Aren't people supposed to go there as soon as they turn 16 as Chamber seemed to suggest?

Now there is also the hypothesis that soldiers aren't killed and that Kugel went to "Avalon" and learned that it's none like it was described. But wouldn't that defy the whole purpose of creating this myth?
Wouldn't it be more efficientl to keep the soldiers dreaming about Avalon until they die?

Honestly as much as it's "cool" to think that the government is evil I'm not ready to buy any theory about their misdeeds if it doesn't make sense.


A few points:
Someone asked why they went so far to change themselves? They went to the extreme to solve a real problem having to do with space travel. The lack of gravity has bad effects on humans. On Earth, our muscles and bones are used to supporting our own weight. In zero g, there is nothing to support so your muscles attrify and you bones lose density. A few generations of this and humans would become week. The Evolvers were trying to find a way for humans to adapt to space so that wouldn't happen but they went way too far. I think the GA is doing the same thing. What we saw in episode 1 and the revelation that they dispose of the week hints at eugenics ie breeding the strong by getting rid of the weak. They only want the best because the best will survive space and the best will win the war.

But that's the point. The pro Hideauze faction here seems to argue that saying that the Hideauze ways are wrong is like saying that transhumanism is wrong.

Well I totally disagree with that, that's not a sound argument at all. I can be against nuclear weapons without being against nuclear energy. Just because I'm against a certain use of a technology it doesn't mean that I'm against the technology itself.
Moreover just because a technology exists it doesn't mean that it should be used freely and without wisdom.

Turning humans into squids seems to me like one of the worst possible ways to "Improve" humans no matter how you look at it. Like many others pointed out this looks more like involution than evolution.
The base concept is wrong. If evolution was a matter of survival and physical prowess then there are bugs that are by far better than us on that regard. And this is where the whole Evolver philosophy went wrong.
They forgot what actually makes us a superior species and pursued qualities that are proper of lesser creatures. What they obtained are superior animals, not superior humans.

I'll use this image to prove my point:

http://plonq.org/up/51ac8ea479000.jpg

The device you see there is a "closer pass" the quantum bomb that was supposed to be used to destroy the Hideauze's nest.

The way the Hideauze are swarming around it doesn't seem to show any kind of intelligence at all. If they are intelligent they should know what it is and they should know that staying close to it means to die.
Then why are so many of them trying to destroy it?
Note that the giant flower thing is probably strong enough to do the job by itself and therefore all the other slugs have no reason to stay there. Moreover the flower thing is going to eat the whole thing, regardless of the Hideauze that are still there.
As if that wasn't enough, another flower thing is about to pointlessly join the first right before the explosion.

Just how does that make any sense in human terms? Either these things have no intelligence or they have completely lost any kind of sense of self and respect for other individual lives.

Sure Kugel also sacrificed himself for the sake of the alliance, but that was also to save Ledo. If they acted like the Hideauze they would have both stayed behind even if only one sacrifice was needed.

So while Kugel recognized the value of a single individual, everything suggests that the Hideauze do not.
And that screams "Borg" to me, which are a major example of a transhumanism gone wrong.

Hamster
2013-06-03, 08:05
Those squid grunts are probably just drones. If the Hideauze are intelligent enough to develop giant beamspammers and have the GA on the run then it's safe to say that they have just as much potential for technology or maybe even more so than the 'normal' humans.

Also, they aren't that ugly.

Libros
2013-06-03, 08:08
Also, they aren't that ugly.

Not the flower one at least.

Nakorius
2013-06-03, 08:14
Those squid grunts are probably just drones. If the Hideauze are intelligent enough to develop giant beamspammers and have the GA on the run then it's safe to say that they have just as much potential for technology or maybe even more so than the 'normal' humans.

Also, they aren't that ugly.

Well there are red ants that with sufficient numbers can eat a human to bare bones.. and they dont use nuclear fission... Numbers.. that always won the wars.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 08:14
Those squid grunts are probably just drones. If the Hideauze are intelligent enough to develop giant beamspammers and have the GA on the run then it's safe to say that they have just as much potential for technology or maybe even more so than the 'normal' humans.

If you check the first part of this episode, you'll notice that Chamber shows how the nautilus Hideauze are essentially identical beings as the whalesquid. The main difference is that they have a shell.

Let's even assume that those are mindless drones, well that's more of a reason to not feel any kind of compassion for them.

It would mean that in the end Ledo never killed the sentient beings but just their mindless drones. While the Hideauze have killed humans all along.


Also, they aren't that ugly.

We might have a different sense of aesthetic completely.

Hamster
2013-06-03, 08:27
Hey war is war. It's not the Hideauze's problem their enemy isn't using unmanned fighters.

Both sides are more or less as bad as each other and I'm sure even the Hideauze has their share of innocent "civilians"... but history is written by the victors. In this case it seems that the Hideauze have the upper hand.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 08:46
The Evolvers already created a method to survive the Ice Age with adaptation to space. Except their way shuns all technology and are slow in space travel. They went Luddite for biotech.

The Continental Alliance creates a wormhole drive so people can leave Earth faster with a better chance to find a new homeworld.

What did the Evolvers do? Lets steal their shit and leave behind the inferior humans and we Transhumanist alone will rule the cosmos!

That sort of behavior still continues as the vector of Hideauze expansion is the Galactic Human Alliance expansion via wormholes.

The Hideauze are no longer Human Transhumanists but parasites chasing their prey. The symbiont has taken over their psychology and are no longer human intellect in anyway.

The Galactic Alliance has it also bad. Their over reliance to Artificial Intelligence has resulted to the A.I. discovering the Zeroth Law. The machines like Chamber think they know what is best for humanity.

Finre
2013-06-03, 08:53
İn first episode GHA Soldiers were saying that this was going to be the last time they will be able to wage war right ?. Does that mean they lost against Hideauze and maybe their capital is suffering right now ?.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-03, 08:53
İn first episode GHA Soldiers were saying that this was going to be the last time they will be able to wage war right ?. Does that mean they lost against Hideauze and maybe their capital is suffering right now ?.

I don't remember that and I don't think so. They wouldn't have retreated so easily if that was their last chance.


Anyway I still maintain that the Hideauze are wrong.

If you have the technology to mix humans with some kind of animal then you should engineer catgirls! Anything else is blasphemy!

Who's with me?!

Libros
2013-06-03, 09:02
If you have the technology to mix humans with some kind of animal then you should engineer catgirls! Anything else is blasphemy!


How about Bunny girls like Kuro Usagi from Mondaiji? :heh:

Shinhwa
2013-06-03, 09:05
Hideuze were humans
http://i.imgur.com/gmxfgAC.gif
My mind is full of fuck.

How the hell are those things humans... jesus christ...

taofd
2013-06-03, 09:09
I find it amusing you guys are already so quick to jump to conclusions about the limited amount of information provided in this episode. I sort of expected this, so this episode was a bit of a letdown for me, although I didn't expect the Hideaze to share a similar ancestor (I simply expected them to be borne of some genetic meddling, perhaps an experiment gone awry).

I suspect there is a third, more neutral group to this conflict, that will soon show themselves. Clearly, humans survived the Ice Age on earth. I suspect some Human-Hideaze hybrids survived as well.

I also expect Chamber to potentially be a problem. If you guys haven't noticed the theme yet, individualism and the non-aggression principle are strong themes in SnG. Mark my words, Ledo will ultimately have to choose peace vs force, and ultimately whether or not to embrace individualism vs collectivism.

You guys really need to stop lumping everyone in the GA or the main Hideaze force into their separate categories. It is conceivable to me (and has been mentioned) that not all Humans agree with the GA propaganda, and I suspect the same is true for the Hideaze.

Some of the "Evolvers" may have performed atrocious experiments on unwilling participants, but that doesn't mean that this was common practice or embraced by every single individual in the group.

At this point, I don't think anyone else has asked this question:
Who was the individual Chamber murdered at the end? I suspect there are varying classes of Hideaze who perform different duties, with the highest functioning being similar to humans--- I suspect whoever died, was potentially someone important enough to plunge Gargantia into War.

Hamster
2013-06-03, 09:16
The catgirls are probably extinct due to the discussions of physics in anime technology in this thread and others.

Squidgirls it is!

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-06-03, 09:16
If you have the technology to mix humans with some kind of animal then you should engineer catgirls! Anything else is blasphemy!

Who's with me?!I prefer Captain America’s “super-soldier serum”. The ones who get it must be certified good like Steve Rogers. If bad people get it, they’ll end up like Red Skull (nobody wants that). Don’t you think it’s the best humanity-filter to decide who will survive the great 5th ice age? :D

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-03, 09:24
I prefer Captain America’s “super-soldier serum”. The ones who get it must be certified good like Steve Rogers. If bad people get it, they’ll end up like Red Skull (nobody wants that). Don’t you think it’s the best humanity-filter to decide who will survive the great 5th ice age? :D

The Hulk also has its origins with the Super Soldier Serum.:heh:

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-06-03, 09:28
The Hulk also has its origins with the Super Soldier Serum.:heh:It's different. The Hulk used Gamma-ray, but Cap used Vita-ray. So, as long as you use Vita-ray, you won't become Hulk (unless you really want it) :D.

Finre
2013-06-03, 09:31
I don't remember that and I don't think so. They wouldn't have retreated so easily if that was their last chance.

Hmm checked the first episode again. Ledo's supervisor Commander Kugel says:

''In 300 seconds, the entire fleet will be entering the wormhole's ergo region. We'll be swinging out right next to a Hideauze nest.
This is a surprise attack, with everything the Alliance has to throw at them.
If we fail here, consider this war over.''

and so they lost. Also Kugel says Hideauze nest not something like their main nest. This makes me think if there are other nests and if Hideauze's standing in the universe is far better than GHA.