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View Full Version : Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll


monir
2013-06-07, 23:44
Welcome to the discussion thread for Suisei no Gargantia, Episode 10.

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Renegade334
2013-06-09, 08:33
Heh. Knew it.

Kugel's alive and on Earth.

MisaoFan
2013-06-09, 08:35
The new episode go full on drama as always: Pinion's crew are having an adventure to explore more about the origins behind Earth's atmospheric change, and have fun with the pirates. Meanwhile, Ledo gets traumatized since last episode, and confront against Chamber who go overboard against him. Unfortunately, a mysterious sect appears in front of them, and it's very much likely Striker and the Galactic Alliance. I'm sure they gonna have a fight against each other on whether Ledo will return to his own or not. In other words, the opening theme gets an upgrade with Ridget untieing her hair, however since two episodes ago, it always leave me with a empty side of sadness partially for the fact that Amy didn't have much interactions with Ledo recently and almost always misunderstand his own will of killing. I will pray to God that Melty, one of Amy best friends, shouldn't get killed off like a certain friend from a certain police anime two seasons ago, and I will very much enjoy the ending with Ledo returning to Gargantia as well.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-09, 08:37
More than that..

Chamber gives exposition on the Hideauze and about the Galactic Alliance.

Principalities
2013-06-09, 09:24
Kugel must have been having fun. Exterminating every single Hideauze in sight. Seems like he also established his own anti-Hideauze cult... Galactic Alliance taken to the extreme. A showdown between Ledo and Kugel is inevitable?

bastek66
2013-06-09, 09:50
I knew this episode ends with Kugel's cliffhanger
http://i.imgur.com/XapUbxxl.jpg (http://imgur.com/XapUbxx)

andyjay729
2013-06-09, 12:34
And here comes the Alliance.

LLLLLET'S GET READY TO RUUUUUMBLLLLLLE!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-hB1TzoG7M)

Byakou
2013-06-09, 12:36
The "reason" provided by the robot for Redo to keep fighting didn't make sense. Kill them because they chose to be different, sure..

oompa loompa
2013-06-09, 12:38
More than that..

Chamber gives exposition on the Hideauze and about the Galactic Alliance.

I thought that was really nice. So far I think this is a pretty wayward show all in all, but there are some real gems hidden in there.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-09, 12:42
Nothing says ominous like a bunch of guys in hooded robes with stuff drawn on their foreheads staring creepily at you as their heavily-armed ships covered in whalesquid corpses approach your fleet...

Or, dammit, "[Pinion]'s gone mad with power, like that Albert Schweitzer guy (http://www.snpp.com/episodes/2F09.html)!" It seemed like he would, he just went crazy rather quickly.

I was wondering whether he should know better than to continue messing with the status quo, but given his fleet's current windfall of lostech, I suppose his enormous ego is getting even better of him.

While the electromagnetic cannon needed a huge amount of power to run, it seems that that small turret was either compatible with their current power supply or had some left over. While they're just now considering using the Sea Galaxy to power their new equipment, I don't see how it would last... but that's their short-sighted thinking happening.

Ledo's existential crisis: Reasonable questions coming out of him. Chamber has an interesting way of spinning things which comes off rather self-beneficial.

waffler
2013-06-09, 12:45
wait what in episode 2 he murdered all those pirates who are actually human and now hes scared to murder hidaeze who arent even human anymore? what?

Kiavik
2013-06-09, 12:50
wait what in episode 2 he murdered all those pirates who are actually human and now hes scared to murder hidaeze who arent even human anymore? what?

Pirates were enemies. Hideauze aren't really. Also, people change you know.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-06-09, 13:02
The "reason" provided by the robot for Redo to keep fighting didn't make sense. Kill them because they chose to be different, sure..

It's a little more complicated than that. It's more like kill them because their fundamental way of life is incompatible with ours.

kk2extreme
2013-06-09, 13:09
I can see it now,

In next ep,

Kugel will ask Ledo to join him and they could rule earth together (and extension to solar system)

...and Ledo will refuse and se "NOOOO! I will never join you"

konart
2013-06-09, 13:17
Pirates were enemies. Hideauze aren't really. Also, people change you know.

Erm... no, Hideauze are enemies too. Squid, on the other hand were not. At least not yet.
But all of his "omg what I am doing?!!" really look strange. He resembles Rento from Eureka, who's just realized that there were people inside other robots :heh:

Shinji103
2013-06-09, 13:27
Mmmmmeh, I couldn't really get a "feel" for the drama of this episode.

Ledo's angst was overdone and really quite unnecessary. Mostly, anyway. Sure it was traumatizing to find out the Hideauze were human, but not on that level. The Hideauze he just wiped out were peaceful and only attacked in defense of their territory, so yeah angst a bit about that because what he did was basically invade their territory and ruthlessly wipe them out for no real reason. But acting like his whole life had lost meaning was over the top.
The Hideauze in space have chosen to be humanity's enemy and would still come to wipe them out regardless of what Ledo or anyone else woud do. So there's still plenty of meaning in what he's done; he was defending his people from a hostile race who are bent on wiping them out, regardless of what race they originated from.
Ledo's a smart guy, he should have reasoned this out already. He certainly spent enough time moping around thinking about it that it should have clicked for him by now.

On the Gargantia side, it really hurts to see Amy, the doc, and everybody's anguish over Ledo wiping out the "whale-squids," but not in an empathetic way. They have no idea about the truth of the "whale-squids," yet they're moping like a great tragedy has occured. It's hard to connect to it like that. They act like they understand them or something when they know nothing about them, while Ledo is agonizing for an actually legitimate reason. (mostly legitimate, anyway) It hurts to watch, like bad drama.

And Pinion's ego is clearly getting carried away, and everyone (most everyone at least) are so encouraged by their current success that they're getting swept up in his enthusiasm.

Well it's pretty obvious what's gong to happen with Krugel next episode. Then again.......are we sure it's Krugel? We don't actually see him in the episode, and I couldn't really pick him out in those small-sized preview shots. (I miss traditional previews....) We just see a couple shots of the Galactic Alliance pilot suit (at least a couple of them are definitely Ledo), but we don't actually see the man himself.

A real twist would be that it isn't Krugel, just somebody who found his machine caliber. Or, much more likely, it's Krugel's descendant; he went in the unstable wormhole, got sent into the past, and now his legacy is being carried on. (his machine caliber's AI would most ikely sign off on his descendant being its pilot in order to carry on the Hideauze slaughter) It would make more sense in explaining how there's a whole cult worshipping his machine caliber. It seems like it's been way to short a time for a whole creepy cult to have been founded.

GreyZone
2013-06-09, 14:03
What actually surprised me was that Chamber admited that the information in that "ancient" lab was actually true. Last Episode it looked like he would forever try to deny it and claim that the video was a fake, but when he said "I got to this conclusion not because I belong to the Alliance, but because of the information I analysed", I got quite relieved, that MAYBE he will not be the final antagonist after all.

Kiavik
2013-06-09, 14:05
Erm... no, Hideauze are enemies too. Squid, on the other hand were not. At least not yet.


The Hideauze in space have chosen to be humanity's enemy and would still come to wipe them out regardless of what Ledo or anyone else woud do.

This is completely wrong. Hideauze aren't enemies really, they're just defending themselves. Did you guys pay attention to the flashback in episode 9? It's clear as crystal that the war was started by the Continental Union (later Galactic Alliance) because of their own ethical reasons. The so-called Hideauze just want to live in peace in space. Of course if they're attacked they WILL return fire. :heh:
But attacking their fellow humans was never their initiative.

LystAP
2013-06-09, 14:06
The Hideauze in space have chosen to be humanity's enemy and would still come to wipe them out regardless of what Ledo or anyone else woud do. So there's still plenty of meaning in what he's done; he was defending his people from a hostile race who are bent on wiping them out, regardless of what race they originated from.


Well, I don't really think it's a matter of choice at this point in the conflict. If anything, the war between humanity and the Hideauze is nothing more than a continuation of the war between the Continental Union and the Evolvers.

A interesting note by Chamber confirms that the Hideauze aren't sentient anymore, at least not on an individual level or at a level that can be easily associated with by normal humans. This goes in hand with the argument against synthetics from various sci-fi series; since they can just evolve countermeasures, the Hideauze have no reason to think at all, no limitations that require intelligence to overcome. Chamber's conclusion is logical, it isn't a matter of who started what now, humanity (as represented by the Galactic Alliance) and the Hideauze are basically two conclusions that contradict each other, and will inevitably lead to some form of conflict (whether or not that conflict can ever be peaceful is unknown).

Reminds me of the argument from this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJIQfmWx3dI), only replace "tech" with "evolutionary" countermeasures. The Hideauze may be biological beings, but they possess all the attributes of a pure synthetic race; thus it may be inevitable that they will come into conflict with their more "organic" counterparts.

At this point in time, I think they just fight each other because that's what both sides have "evolved" towards, what they've been doing for thousands of years, in the case of the Galactic Alliance, their society and outlook; in the case of the Hideauze, their combat oriented biology and aggression; both sides don't need a reason anymore, it's what they do.

MeggieMay
2013-06-09, 14:15
Ok, that was different, in a good way. Probably shouldn't have been surprised that the powers that be on the ships are letting Pinon go power crazy - that's going to end poorly :rolleyes: As for Kugel, I'm not sure what side his "friends" are on. Yes, they have dead Whalesquid all over the place but they're also dressed up to look like Whalesquid. That could mean they are pro-Whalesquid, just as likely as anti. Where I'm coming from on this is if you think about other cultures like American Indians, African, or Pacific Islander from 200+ years ago, you sometimes see groups from those who dress up as the things they worship when they when they go to fight, as well as bringing totems of the spirits they follow with them (such as a bunch of dead Whalesquid who look like they've been persevered or something).

Big Disclaimer: What I'm talking about above here is informed more by modern media verse hard facts. I'm not about to claim this is a truthful or accurate portrayal of real native peoples and apologies to anyone before hand if I'm getting some of this wrong. Keep in mind that the writers of this show are most likely coming from the same Western influenced media background that I do and that is what I think is important in what I'm trying to convey. Specifically, what I got from the sequence where the Whalesquid dressed up people, with their painted up faces and expressions that looked like they might a bit crazy (or have ingested something to get into a altered state), along with their collection of dead, very embalmed looking, Whalesquid collection, reminded me of similar sequences I've seen in films where groups of natives attack the interlopers for killing something they see as sacred. From movies like 1933s King Kong to James Cameron's Avatar you get similar types of sequences that pop up in them. So how I interpreted what I was seeing was "oh great, here come the Squid Cult and it looks like Kugel has gone native and joined there side" response. Really, Kugel should have contacted Ledo long before now, seeing the MC's have better radio reception. Unless somethings wrong with Kugel Mecha (I'm not sure it's a MC actually, but even if it's not it should have a similar AI unit) but it does seem to me Kugel hasn't been looking to go home quite as much as Ledo has/had (because one would think Chamber would have picked up multiple outgoing signals). So while I wouldn't rule out that Kugel and Co are simply there to join the Whalesquid killing spree, I think it is as likely they're there to stop them from desecrating the "holy lands." I think that might also make sense from the perspective of what Chamber was saying, as well (i.e. it may show that while it would be nice to co-exist, it often isn't a option no matter how hard we want it to be).

Which takes me to Chamber in this episode. Wow! It was a really nice twist that Ledo's AI seems to really be as semi sentient/sapient as he appeared in earlier episodes (to me that is). I believe the AI when it tells us that it came to the conclusions it tells Ledo on its own. While I don't know if I 100% agree with Chambers take on how things really are and how they should proceed, Chamber is making a number valid points. I also feel reassured after his discussion that Chamber really is capable of being reasoned with and some of the things he said I'm really iffy on might be settled with some extended discussion on the subject. One thing I find a problem with Chambers argument is that they have to kill all of the Whalesquid because they're Hidiousze. I feel there is a middle path that could be found for the Whalesqiuds because as Chamber said himself, they've de-evolved from the Hidiouze that they battled in space. Maybe a 100% no-kill situation can't be reached (or maybe it can but I'm not sure that is possible either) but there is no need to waste resources on such a campaign, either, at least at this point.

The world of Gargantia was never perfect, IMO. It just seemed that way because the Gargantia itself was in a time of peace. The group with Kugel didn't just appear - they must have been hovering around that area for years. As well the pirate situation is was also going to blow up at some point. Everything hinged on a status quo that was going to get unbalanced sooner or later. To stay the same would be the stagnate but to change brings on strife between people and there may not be a way for that to ever be resolved (I feel this is part of what Chamber is trying to say with his speech). This show is really putting out a lot of deep thinking thoughts about humanity and why things are the way they are, at this point. How the show handles all of these ideas is going to make or break the ending of this show IMO.

Kleeyook
2013-06-09, 14:20
^^ I don't know what to say about the opinions of people about this GA vs Hideous anymore. ^^

I don't think it's fair for us to say that the GA are Nazi-space assholes when the hideous believe themselves to be superior to humans. Also, while the CA attacked the Evolvers first. It was the Evolvers who siezed the wormhole dive to chase after the CA who decided to flee from them so that they wouldn't deal with the hideous' bullshit in the first place.

What was the point of converting them into something THAT different in order to live in the space without the spacecraft when they need the wormhole dive to spread themselves even faster!? The hideous just got greedy and had expansionist attitude to conquer the galaxy for themselves.

But then, as the viewers, the 3rd person viewpoint. It will always be neutral, although I doubt your opinion is really objective seeing you root so much for the hideous. This conflict isn't something we can compare to Gundam SEED's Blue Cosmos vs Coordinators, you know! It's on a different magnitude!

BTW, Hideauze probably comes from hideous. That's what normal humans looks at their appearance anymore. I don't know about their social structure, culture and moral concept tough.

I don't think I can compare this to normal people living with cannibals, but when their opinion about their way of life crash in the most radical way, I don't think peaceful coexistence is possible.

apotheosis
2013-06-09, 14:26
Well, I don't really think it's a matter of choice at this point in the conflict. If anything, the war between humanity and the Hideauze is nothing more than a continuation of the war between the Continental Union and the Evolvers.

A interesting note by Chamber confirms that the Hideauze aren't sentient anymore, at least not on an individual level or at a level that can be easily associated with by normal humans. This goes in hand with the argument against synthetics from various sci-fi series; since they can just evolve countermeasures, the Hideauze have no reason to think at all, no limitations that require intelligence to overcome. Chamber's conclusion is logical, it isn't a matter of who started what now, humanity (as represented by the Galactic Alliance) and the Hideauze are basically two conclusions that contradict each other, and will inevitably lead to some form of conflict (whether or not that conflict can ever be peaceful is unknown).

Reminds me of the argument from this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJIQfmWx3dI), only replace "tech" with "evolutionary" countermeasures. The Hideauze may be biological beings, but they possess all the attributes of a pure synthetic race; thus it may be inevitable that they will come into conflict with their more "organic" counterparts.

At this point in time, I think they just fight each other because that's what both sides have "evolved" towards, what they've been doing for thousands of years, in the case of the Galactic Alliance, their society and outlook; in the case of the Hideauze, their combat oriented biology and aggression; both sides don't need a reason anymore, it's what they do.

I agree with the way you present Chamber's argument, but I wonder if they will wrap it up that smoothly. It seems like the theme has been to embrace the culture of Gargantia all along, so I would expect them to try and find a way to avoid fighting the whalesquids.

The whalesquids are not as aggressive as the space hideauze, so this might be possible .. but I'm not sure how you come to a cease fire with powerful beings that don't have sentience. If you are far more powerful than them, you could put them in a zoo ... but with only 2 machine calibers, I am not sure that's an option for the earth humans.

I suppose if they just avoid the whalesquid territories they might be able to avoid conflicts for awhile, but it seems inevitable that other whalesquid pods will discover that the Evolver Base pod has been destroyed & retaliate.

LystAP
2013-06-09, 14:40
^^ I don't know what to say about the opinions of people about this GA vs Hideous anymore. ^^

I don't think it's fair for us to say that the GA are Nazi-space assholes when the hideous believe themselves to be superior to humans. Also, while the CA attacked the Evolvers first. It was the Evolvers who siezed the wormhole dive to chase after the CA who decided to flee from them so that they wouldn't deal with the hideous' bullshit in the first place.


We don't know if the Hideauze and the whalesquid are even capable of "believing" in anything anymore, after thousands of years of potential regression intelligence-wise. In the previous episode thread, people were noting a lack of civilization in regards to the whale-squid's nest; there is some evidence that the whalesquids have lost sentience, at least at the level a human would have.

I agree with the way you present Chamber's argument, but I wonder if they will wrap it up that smoothly. It seems like the theme has been to embrace the culture of Gargantia all along, so I would expect them to try and find a way to avoid fighting the whalesquids.

The whalesquids are not as aggressive as the space hideauze, so this might be possible .. but I'm not sure how you come to a cease fire with powerful beings that don't have sentience. If you are far more powerful than them, you could put them in a zoo ... but with only 2 machine calibers, I am not sure that's an option for the earth humans.

I suppose if they just avoid the whalesquid territories they might be able to avoid conflicts for awhile, but it seems inevitable that other whalesquid pods will discover that the Evolver Base pod has been destroyed & retaliate.

Another thing to be worried about, remembering that the Evolvers and Hideauze use evolution as a response to threats, is if the Earth whalesquids respond by re-evolving the weaponry their ancestors had. If you keep wiping out the peaceful whalesquids, those that survive may become more aggressive and correspondingly more dangerous.

DuelGundam2099
2013-06-09, 14:49
Well this episode was just Pinion getting weapons, Ledo and the Gargantians being mopey, and Chamber being philosophical with a cliffhanger. I was.... Kind of expecting more from this. Not like it matters, only three eps left to go anyway.

Awrya
2013-06-09, 14:54
Another mind-blowing episode.
With the way Ledo was acting, losing his reason to exterminate the Hideauze, I thought Chamber would deem Ledo to be mentally incapable of fighting Hideauze and relieve him of his military rank.

So at least Kugel's Machine Caliber is on earth and someone has created a cult?
He must have arrived to earth much earlier than Ledo, creating a cult of such magnitude must have taken more than a few months Ledo has spent on Gargantia.
Maybe Gargantia has heard of this cult before, who hunt and hang the corpses of whale squids on their ships, leading Bebel and Amy to pity whale squids?

Irenesharda
2013-06-09, 14:56
I first I thought this episode was going to be bad. Pinion has gone nuts and let the power go to his head. Red is having a case of PTSD or something (it's probably some other psychological thing, but I'm too lazy to look into it.) and he is feeling extreme guilt over killing the Hideauze. I like the weapons they discovered, they aren't too over the top like Chamber's but they are loads better than what they have now. I hope Pinion gets over himself and they are able to share what they have found with the rest of humanity including Gargantia.

Anyway, I thought this episode was going to suck and they were going to spout the same anti-war, pacifist cliches you get in a thousand other anime, however--I must say, this episode was single-handedly saved by Chamber.

Chamber is without a doubt, the best and smartest character in this entire show. The machine is smart enough to put together what his pilot could not: that the Hideauze are no longer human and haven't been for sometime. They gave up their humanity, willingly, and now that willingness has caused a war that has been waged for centuries. And it's no longer a war of ideals, but a war of survival...for existence. Though you now know the war's beginnings, it doesn't change the reality that you're in now. It just makes you more informed about the enemy.

However, the twist that I saw was coming eventually, of Cmdr. Kugel being on Earth as well has arrived. But is he awake or in some sort of induced coma like Red was? Striker (Kugel's mech) doesn't seem to be active, since it's body and eyes weren't glowing. And who are these strange cult guys in robes? They have ships covered in impaled Hideuze and have weird red eyes painted on their foreheads. They look so spaced out. I want to know what's going to happen next! Why oh why did they decide to keep all the good stuff until the end and spent so much wasted time on nonsense?

Anyway, I give this episode an 8/10. Chamber had the best speech of the series and that by itself is laudable.

ThereminVox
2013-06-09, 15:30
A very draggy first half, but the second made up for it nicely.

I'm simultaneously disturbed and excited by the implication that Kugel may have experienced a story that greatly parallels Ledo's, only Kugel's methods of making first contact appear to be very different. Also, the Gargantian fleet itself has a lot to do with making Ledo a changed individual.

Irenesharda
2013-06-09, 15:32
I honestly think this show might go a different direction than just having Red and Kugel fight each other. Neither of them have been antagonistic towards each other in the past, and from what we've seen Kugel is a pretty nice guy and is very similar to Red in that he will go against protical to save others. The guy was willing to die to protect the fleet and the rest of humanity, I don't think that's the makings of a bad guy, at least without seeing any other backstory leading up to it.

How do we know he even set up the cult or anything? How do we even know if the guy is conscious? Red was in an induced coma for 6 months before Chamber woke him up, and at that point he was already in Gargantia's hands. What if the same thing happened to Kugel and this cult somehow made Striker into an idol or something?

I'm just saying that assuming that suddenly Kugel and Red will be enemies is jumping to conclusions. Especially for a soldier trained to obey his CO. And I don't care how much more in touch with his humanity Red has become, he still carries the mind and instincts of a soldier.

ookamigirl
2013-06-09, 15:37
Ledo was on a serious guilt trip.
Everyone was pretty much disappointed by his actions.
Seems like no one gained anything, except Pinion.
Everything Ledo believed in was shattered.
Looks like he won't be alone for much longer..

ThereminVox
2013-06-09, 15:43
How do we know he even set up the cult or anything? How do we even know if the guy is conscious?

It's possible (though I doubt it) that he isn't even alive in there. If that were the case, would his machine caliber be capable of independent action in the event that it encountered the whalesquid?

joshuafaramir
2013-06-09, 15:48
Finally.. some equal footing from the opposing camp. Now lets watch some serious gundam fight between the two (hopefully). Stray bullets kill bystanders. Loli dies, Pinion dies! HAVOC AND CHAOS ENSUES.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 15:54
What actually surprised me was that Chamber admited that the information in that "ancient" lab was actually true. Last Episode it looked like he would forever try to deny it and claim that the video was a fake, but when he said "I got to this conclusion not because I belong to the Alliance, but because of the information I analysed", I got quite relieved, that MAYBE he will not be the final antagonist after all.

Before this episode I was wondering which Chamber his reason and his program should they conflict.
Chamber has always displayed an innate tendency to put everything into reasonable data. He kept asking the logic behind everything, and he kept giving his judgement on the rationality of Ledo's and other's argument.

I was glad to see that Chamber's logic won. When he got facts he couldn't deny anymore that the alliance's information were wrong. And it's very interesting how he came to his own conclusions about the nature of Hideauze humans and their conflict.

I'm looking forward to see how he will further adjust to the upcoming events.


Certainly what Chamber said was very interesting it had some valid points. Somehow it was even a selfish reasoning which is interesting.
The Hideauze do not need machines, so if that "humanity" will win, machines will become obsolete including Chamber himself. Moreover soldiers like Ledo won't be needed anymore, though Chamber forgot that Ledo technically has he option to join the Hideauze (of course he'll never do that but the option exists).

I still don't think that it's possible to conclude that the Hideauze have abandoned intelligence completely. The whalesquids certainly did and it seems that nautilus Hideauze have regressed to a mindless state too, however since it seems that there are many different "species" of them we can't exclude that some kind of intelligence form still exist, like the cerebrates for the zerg.

Still it is almost undeniable at this point that the Hideauze as a whole have abandoned civilization and culture and are only bent on survival and expansion. And unlike the GA they have it in their genes. The GA can stop being a Nazi society anytime. The Hideauze have forgone the human versatility for an ultimate form of life and society.


That being said, if there is still some intelligence left somewhere in the Hideauze society a peaceful solution could be achieved, that... supposing that the Hideauze can abandon their greedy expansionistic aims.

If they take whatever they want and attack humans without a second though or warning when they get close like the whalesquid do, then Chamber is right. Humanity cannot compete against them in term of expansion. They are bound to hoard every single resource in the galaxy and humanity will have no future.


Now about those cultists. One thing is certain, they aren't in friendly terms with the whalesquids and it seems they've been killing them for a while. It wouldn't be surprising if Kugel adopted the strategy that Chamber proposed and Ledo refused in episode 2.
I think that Kugel became the commander of the fleet and made them participate in his crusade against the Hideauze.

But it wouldn't make sense for them to never have attacked the very place where the Hideauze were created for all this time, so they probably never knew its location. They must have been attracted by Pinion's message and it seems that they are happy that someone else destroyed the whalesquid's nest.

Now though it's yet to be seen if they will ask for a friendly alliance or if they'll want to take over. Probably the latter.



How do we know he even set up the cult or anything?

Because... why else whould this cult hate the whalesquids so much? Of course it's not impossible that someone of the earthlings developed such hatred independently, but since they also have striker with them, it is more likely that Kugel told them of his fight against the Hideauze.

ginger02
2013-06-09, 16:02
Episode needed more Amy. She hasn't said much in 2 episodes. I loved the scene of Bellows and her hair blowing in the wind on the ship.

Irenesharda
2013-06-09, 16:09
It's possible (though I doubt it) that he isn't even alive in there. If that were the case, would his machine caliber be capable of independent action in the event that it encountered the whalesquid?

Well, I think that he's alive, but I don't know if he's conscious or not. Remember in the very beginning, Chamber had suggested that Red go back into induced coma in order to conserve on nutrients and water until he could get a link with the Alliance? Kugel might have actually done so, and in that case Striker would have acted independently to protect him. As Chamber has said, the machine calibers' main job is to protect and aid their pilots.

However, those whalesquid also look ancient and almost petrified, is it possible that Kugel/Striker didn't kill them but the cult did? Or that they just found dead ones and simply set them up on their ship?

I'm just saying that this show is beginning to think out of the box, and I think the idea that Kugel and Red will simply fight because of sudden differing ideals is a little cliche. And it would really come out of nowhere since the last we saw Kugel was in episode 1, he was in the process of sacrificing his life to protect his men and Avalon.

However, this does present the question: if Kugel, who was fighting the Hideauze, fell to Earth, could some of the space Hideauze have followed him as well? And as they are about 150x more powerful than the sea Hideauze, that could be a problem.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 16:15
Kugel might have actually done so, and in that case Striker would have acted independently to protect him. As Chamber has said, the machine calibers' main job is to protect and aid their pilots.

I think Striker would have woken up Kugel as soon as he found Hideauze, Machine Calibers aren't meant to fight them alone and those ships have "dried squids" everywhere.
Chamber received a message using the standard encryption of the alliance so at the very least Striker is still active.

Irenesharda
2013-06-09, 16:16
Because... why else would this cult hate the whalesquids so much? Of course it's not impossible that someone of the earthlings developed such hatred independently, but since they also have striker with them, it is more likely that Kugel told them of his fight against the Hideauze.

Who knows? Who knows why most cults do what they do? Majority of the time, the reason might not be logical. And even if it is, they might hate them like Pinion does if they are from a place that was attacked by the Hideauze.

Also, they might not even hate them. They might decorate their ships that way because they worship them. I mean, they have already alluded to others in this world being superstitious and revering the whalesquid, maybe these guys are an extreme form? Maybe they are some sort of NeoEvolver group?

Shinhwa
2013-06-09, 16:17
Let the massive fight between Chamber and Striker begin with deaths occurring =w=

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 16:20
Who knows? Who knows why most cults do what they do? Majority of the time, the reason might not be logical. And even if it is, they might hate them like Pinion does if they are from a place that was attacked by the Hideauze. Also, they might not even hate them. They might decorate their ships that way because they worship them. I mean, they have already alluded to others in this world being superstitious and revering the whalesquid, maybe these guys are an extreme form? Maybe they are some sort of NeoEvolver group?

You worship creatures by killing them and decorating your homes with their carcasses? That's a new.

Anyway as I said it's not like it's impossible that somehow those who happened to find striker also happen coincidentally to want to kill Hideauze as much as Kugel wants, but that's of several magnitudes more unlikely than the case where they are killing whalesquids because of Kugel.


In addition you'd need to explain how do they kill whalesquids, because as far as it was told to us it is very hard to deal with them with the technologies available to earthlings.

Kanon
2013-06-09, 16:21
As expected, most of the episode dealt with Ledo angsting over his extermination of what he now knows are former humans. I don't think it was overdone. He found out absolutely everything he believed in was a lie, and that he just killed helpless "human" babies. That's bound to shake anybody up. It's more than enough for him to question the meaning of his existence. It will take a bit more time before he decides what he should do from now.

I was a bit surprised Chamber eventually came to the conclusion the information they discovered last week were real. His reasoning was interesting. He is both right and wrong. Achieving peace with the Hideauze is probably impossible, but the situation is different on Earth. They haven't reached the extreme state of existence he spoke of. They're content living peacefully in their territory. They're no different from most animals now, assuming they did lose their intellect. There is no reason to exterminate them all. Co-existence is possible. It's not necessary for Ledo to fight them.

Kugel being alive and well on Earth was a nice twist. I'm guessing he will represent what Ledo might have become had Amy (and to some extent Bebel) not been there for him. There will be a sharp contrast between the current Ledo and him. It may be a cliché development but I think it's pretty obvious they eventually will fight each other at the end of the series. Right now I can't imagine how Ledo could convince Chamber to fight Kugel though, unless Kugel has somehow strayed from the path of a soldier (that cult is very ominous...).

Irenesharda
2013-06-09, 16:22
I think Striker would have woken up Kugel as soon as he found Hideauze, Machine Calibers aren't meant to fight them alone and those ships have "dried squids" everywhere.
Chamber received a message using the standard encryption of the alliance so at the very least Striker is still active.

Remember in the beginning that Chamber continued to send his SOS even while he was for the majority part shut down during those 6 months. And he didn't fully turn on until Gargantia dug him up. Striker might be doing the same. It would explain why they haven't heard Striker's call till now. The signal was very low key and the cult could have been on the other side of the planet for all we know. It was only as the cult approached that Chamber picked it up.

andyjay729
2013-06-09, 16:26
So Chamber asserts that humans who turn their back on their mechanical creations (like himself) are turning their back on their humanity. Man is just an uncivilized animal without his tools.

Who made who (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKQOFkpMD0o)? (That's was the theme song of Maximum Overdrive, BTW. Perhaps this wasn't the best analogy here, but I like this song. ;) )

DarkRaven
2013-06-09, 16:27
the striker is superior to chamber so in a fight it wouldnt be that easy for Ledo.. i cant wait for the next episode

Irenesharda
2013-06-09, 16:33
You worship creatures by killing them and decorating your homes with their carcasses? That's a new.

Anyway as I said it's not like it's impossible that somehow those who happened to find striker also happen coincidentally to want to kill Hideauze as much as Kugel wants, but that's of several magnitudes more unlikely than the case where they are killing whalesquids because of Kugel.


In addition you'd need to explain how do they kill whalesquids, because as far as it was told to us it is very hard to deal with them with the technologies available to earthlings.

What cults do, again, usually doesn't make sense when you try to apply logic, so who knows...

Anyway, I'm just going to keep an open mind when it comes to the next episode. If Kugel turns out evil, okay. If he turns out the same way he started, okay.

I honestly think he's going to be presented as Red's ticket home (remember that Chamber said that he could get them home, but he couldn't do it by himself and that he needed help.) But whether Red accepts this or not could be the crux of the debate.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-09, 16:33
Did Chamber just justify his own existence to serve humanity?

Hideauze and their cousins the Squidwhales are no longer human and as we expected just animals. Evolvers abandoned their humanity and regressed. They become the symbionts they were wearing.

Chamber is saying it makes no damn difference as Hideauze are a threat to humanity. Perhaps even more as they can no longer be reasoned with.

Ledo's shock can be compared to the Minbari of B5. Minbari do not kill Minbari. Sure he killed pirates but they were threatening civilians and potential allies.

Speaking of allies Pinion got a big head and starts to accept pirates to his crew. That is going to bite him in the ass. Even Ledo has standards.

Wonder what Kugel is doing these past months. Who are people he is with. They look a bit crazy.

konart
2013-06-09, 16:36
This is completely wrong. Hideauze aren't enemies really, they're just defending themselves. Did you guys pay attention to the flashback in episode 9? It's clear as crystal that the war was started by the Continental Union (later Galactic Alliance) because of their own ethical reasons. The so-called Hideauze just want to live in peace in space. Of course if they're attacked they WILL return fire. :heh:
But attacking their fellow humans was never their initiative.

The past is the past. The current situation is as Chamber said - destroy or be destroyed.

PS: well, you can always quote Shakespeare here, right?

GreyZone
2013-06-09, 16:37
[...] though Chamber forgot that Ledo technically has he option to join the Hideauze (of course he'll never do that but the option exists).[...]

How do you know that exactly? We don't know enough about the Space-Hideauze, to come to such a conclusion. Maybe they have already long ago mutated to a swarm-like intelligence and have nothing resembling a human aside from their possibly still existing expansionistic mentality.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 17:03
How do you know that exactly? We don't know enough about the Space-Hideauze, to come to such a conclusion. Maybe they have already long ago mutated to a swarm-like intelligence and have nothing resembling a human aside from their possibly still existing expansionistic mentality.

Perhaps, but if the technology to become Hideauze still exists then Ledo can become one regardless of what the already existing ones in space think.

In the first place it was humans that created them.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-09, 17:05
What if the fleet Kugel got himself are lost technology worshipers? The other extreme side so to speak.

Much like some Comstar elements were and the Word of Blake in Battletech.

Kumbayah
2013-06-09, 17:06
Chamber was wrong in some points. The Gallatic Alliance and Space Hideauze Civlization were antagonistic with each other. Humans and Hideauze (as proven by the 99% gene-matching with just a different exoskeleton whalesquids) could coexist and anyone who would say otherwise didn't watch the previous episodes. Higher or lower life form, either way doesn't give you the right to kill every one of them.

mentat
2013-06-09, 17:17
Some speculation and predictions for the last few episodes...


When Kugel arrived on earth, he spread GA propaganda and was able to turn the fleet that pulled him out of the ocean into believers of humanity uniting under one banner for the purpose of defeating the Hideaze (and by extension the whalesquids). Kugel is a senior officer (a colonel) after all so he probably has the skill and motivation to do so

Pinion welcomes Kugel's powerful fleet with open arms as he is tempted by the idea of adding another Machine Caliber to his upstart fleet

Kugel's influence over the masses allows him to take control of Pinion's fleet

Kugel and his cult seek to forcibly unite Gargantia under the GA banner, and of course only Ledo can stand in their way

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 17:20
Humans and Hideauze (as proven by the 99% gene-matching with just a different exoskeleton whalesquids) could coexist and anyone who would say otherwise didn't watch the previous episodes.

I'm not sure if that counts as co-existence. The whalesquids basically killed any human that dared to cross their borders.

It's more like that they led completely separated existences in a sort of truce that could escalate to war any time.

Gundamx
2013-06-09, 17:23
Why he have problem killing them even though he killed pirates without problem?

Kumbayah
2013-06-09, 17:25
I'm not sure if that counts as co-existence. The whalesquids basically killed any human that dared to cross their borders.

It's more like that they led completely separated existences in a sort of truce that could escalate to war any time.
But does that mean we attack them just because it's a possibility? We don't kill chimpanzees just because they pose the threat of evolving into a higher intelligence and might enslave the human race.

Endless Soul
2013-06-09, 17:34
I kept facepalming every time Pinion spoke. I just know he's going to make some very bad decisions that are going to get people killed. (Dear Zod PLEASE don't let it be Melty!)

I compared the Machine Caliber in this episode to Col. Kugel's in episode one, and it is indeed one and the same.

Endless "Sending mojo to Melty" Soul

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 17:36
But does that mean we attack them just because it's a possibility? We don't kill chimpanzees just because they pose the threat of evolving into a higher intelligence and might enslave the human race.

We do systematically kill animals that kill humans on an individual basis.
If a shark eats a human, a squad is formed to hunt that shark and kill it. The same goes for lions, tigers and so on. Dogs that kill humans face the same fate.

Of course I agree that it was wrong for Ledo to exterminate the whole nest. But I can't say that it was completely wrong to kill the whalesquids that automatically attacked the incoming fleet and that would have likely killed Pinion and his squad for taking what they essentially don't even need.


It's hard to make a comparison with other animals because the whalesquids pose a higher threat than any other animal and they display coordinated aggressive behavior.
They behave more like hive animals, such as ants and wasps. And in truth for the latter people completely destroy their nests if they find one in a residential area.

Byakou
2013-06-09, 17:37
They're just continuing a war they don't even remember why they started. By the end of the series when we know more I don't think there will be a "wrong" side. Remember in the first episode, it was clear that the society Ledo was part of was some kind of totalitarian state. Ledo was snatched from his parents, and put to work as a soldier to freeze/unfreeze at their convenience when they needed him, basically treated like a commodity rather than a person. People say that that the hideazu lost their humanity. Hah. Like the GA hasn't.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-09, 17:38
Chamber was wrong in some points. The Gallatic Alliance and Space Hideauze Civlization were antagonistic with each other. Humans and Hideauze (as proven by the 99% gene-matching with just a different exoskeleton whalesquids) could coexist and anyone who would say otherwise didn't watch the previous episodes. Higher or lower life form, either way doesn't give you the right to kill every one of them.

Hideauze and Squidwhales went by different evolutionary paths. One expands its territory the other mostly keeps at its established territory.

Fact with the former is that they always stand in the Alliance's way. Even after they lost their human intellect.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 17:49
People say that that the hideazu lost their humanity. Hah. Like the GA hasn't.

They didn't lose it, they simply suppress it. Ledo is a living proof of that.

I might change my mind if I see a Hideauze experiencing an existential crisis after knowing that humans are their ancestors.

Jetzero Infinity
2013-06-09, 18:15
This week's ep was certainly interesting. Pinion is turning out to become much more ruthless than I expected and it seems like it's only a matter of time before he does something that'll get himself, and likely the rest if his crew killed. It was also pretty interesting to see everyone's reactions to his declaration and it's nice to see their almost all equally disturbed. Should be interesting to see how things turn out on that end.

On Ledo's side of things he spent most of the episode in angst as I expected and it certainly wasn't surprising to see him question the nature of the war itself and if there's even a point him continuing it. What I wasn't expecting though was Chamber snapping Ledo out of it, and actually giving him a pretty compelling reason to continue on. Of course it remains to be seen how much Ledo will take it to heart, and with his commander from the Alliance showing up at the end of the ep, it looks like it's decision making time for Ledo. Next week should be pretty epic.

Wandering_Youth
2013-06-09, 18:17
Here I thought Chamber might of been the last boss, but he proved to be on Ledo's side. A machine giving a human a reason to continue the fight and live.

jzmagic
2013-06-09, 18:29
So the final boss, Commander Kugel, makes his appearance. The coming conflict will probably be Commander Kugel sticking with his mission to killing Hideauze versus Ledo who takes a stand against him.

HandofFate
2013-06-09, 18:31
Chamber was so tsundere at the end.

I'm not encouraging you because I want to, its just because I'm an AI interface designed to develop pilots.

Series getting super heavy now.

I sympathized with Pinion about his brother. But oh man, every decision he made this episode made me shake my head.

Surprised that even as a mechanic, Pinion was able to repair/install the technology they found.

frubam
2013-06-09, 18:40
I kept facepalming every time Pinion spoke. I just know he's going to make some very bad decisions that are going to get people killed. (Dear Zod PLEASE don't let it be Melty!)
Me too =02. And I was thinking I'd never hate anyone in this series, but Pinion proved me wrong. I mean, I knew he was taking advantage of Ledo for his own selfish reasons, but he really let himself go over-the-top despite not having ANY power himself whatsoever. Chars like that just drive me UP THE WALL >=0[! I was actually hoping the pirates would kill him off while Ledo was wallowing in self-depression, but eh, I guess they'll save his death for another episode.

On another note, with this Colonel business coming up, I wonder just how Ledo will reunite with Amy? Will the Col destroy all of Pinion's fleet, forcing Ledo(and others) back to the Gargantia? I can totally see the Col and Ledo, destroying their Caliburs and Ledo returning back with Amy in some dramatic way(like her finding him unconscious on a plank of wood or something).

Kirarakim
2013-06-09, 18:59
I have to think more on the message of this episode. I was completely enthralled during all the Chamber/Ledo scenes. But I realized they are the only characters I care about.

I am completely apathetic to Pinion & the rest of Gargantia at this point.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 19:16
Apart from Pinion's retarded powerhunger mania, he really showed very little understanding about Ledo's morale.

He should have worried more about the fact that Ledo was in that state, if anything because he needs his ace in perfect shape if he doesn't want to lose everything that he had gained.

While I can't think of him as a clearly evil character I feel like I wouldn't really be bothered if he ended up being killed. He's not just selfish, arrogant, and devoid of moral, he is also incredibly stupid.

Xion Valkyrie
2013-06-09, 19:21
Apart from Pinion's retarded powerhunger mania, he really showed very little understanding about Ledo's morale.

He should have worried more about the fact that Ledo was in that state, if anything because he needs his ace in perfect shape if he doesn't want to lose everything that he had gained.

While I can't think of him as a clearly evil character I feel like I wouldn't really be bothered if he ended up being killed. He's not just selfish, arrogant, and devoid of moral, he is also incredibly stupid.

He's been like that the entire time. Remember in the BBQ episode when he had Ledo go do a 'job'?

MeggieMay
2013-06-09, 19:28
^ I care for Amy, her brother and Bellows but overall the mope fest we saw back on the Gargantia didn't make me feel much of anything, other than for Amy (who I think misses Ledo as much as she is moping about over the Whalesquid). That said, I think the people of Gargantia are representing a theology that isn't quite coming across to some of the non Asian viewers, myself being one of those. My logical guess would be it's Buddhist in some way, from what little I understand about the religion. I believe that some sects (Tibetan is one that comes to mind) believe in total pacifism and not killing things unless they need to (thus why some Buddhist are vegetarians) and others believe that to one extent or another. Anyway, what I'm getting at is I think we're suppose to understand where the crew is coming from from a cultural background and thus sympathize more. I'm not sure how well that worked with the Japanese audience, any more than it did with us, however.

As for Col. Kugel being the final boss - that isn't a given yet in my mind. We're just going to have to wait and see exactly were that is going to go. That said, I still am not sure the crew on that other ship, which we're all calling the Cult at this point, really killed those squids. They look mummified to me. They could have found dead whalesquid who died of natural causes and preserved them. Really, if Striker had killed those squids, they'd be mush like the ones Chamber did.

As for Pinion, he's a moron in my opinion. The people following them are punch drunk with the find at the moment (btw, they are happy about what happened, though not so much for the dead whalesquid but the haul of tech) and hopefully enough of them will wake up and start backing up the Fleet Captain and get Pinion under control ASAP. I have a bad feeling that won't happen fast enough, however :( .

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 19:34
Mummified? Nah, they look like dried squids (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Jrb_20061121_dried_squid_001.JPG) it's a common food in Japan.

ChainLegacy
2013-06-09, 19:44
Kugel and his cult make me speculate that perhaps he too has been changed by his time on Earth, but in an opposite way from Ledo. Instead of learning the simple, humble lifestyle that Ledo saw in Gargantia, Kugel may well have experienced the old adage of absolute power corrupts absolutely. After all, while life in the GA vs Hideauze conflict has plenty of drawbacks, life on Earth should certainly still have its shady side, thus far exemplified by pirates. Perhaps he has used his awesome might to become a king of sorts and brainwashed his followers into continuing his conflict against the Hideauze in an almost religious, dogmatic sort of way.

Byakou
2013-06-09, 19:46
They didn't lose it, they simply suppress it. Ledo is a living proof of that.

I might change my mind if I see a Hideauze experiencing an existential crisis after knowing that humans are their ancestors.

You're judging a now non-human species based on human criterias. Of course they will fail. That's like judging a lion by its' ability to fly or a cat by its' ability to swim. The hideazu have their own way of life. If you rewatch ep 1, you will see the space hideaze have created some pretty amazing things.

Grey
2013-06-09, 19:48
Ledo's behavior was painfully inconsistent with vaporizing those pirates early on. It really bugged me that they didn't address that. I was thankful when Chamber gave his own analysis. It was interesting to hear.

Never expected Kugel to show up! Or his machine caliber anyway. Looks like he may have been taking down whalesquids too.

Terrestrial Dream
2013-06-09, 19:50
I think the difference with the pirates was that it changed the meaning of his existence. It wasn't the matter of killing humans, rather he believed he fought was for survival of humanity, not against fellow mankind.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 19:56
You're judging a now non-human species based on human criterias.

Al that I'm saying is that they have lost their humanity, and you have just agreed with me by saying that they are a non-human species.
And we aren't talking about physical appearances here.


The hideazu have their own way of life. If you rewatch ep 1, you will see the space hideaze have created some pretty amazing things.

Termites create amazing things too. How much sad makes you feel the knowledge that people completely exterminate them if they find them in their houses?

Byakou
2013-06-09, 20:00
Al that I'm saying is that they have lost their humanity, and you have just agreed with me by saying that they are a non-human species.
And we aren't talking about physical appearances here.




Termites create amazing things too. How much sad makes you feel the knowledge that people completely exterminate them if they find them in their houses?

Actually if you read I pointed out that the GA have also lost their humanity ;) You argue that humans > hideazu. You're wrong, they're simply different. Termites isn't a fair comparison. It's more like watching star trek and saying humans are fundamentally superior to say, klingons. That's just dumb frankly, they're different species.

triplez
2013-06-09, 20:08
This turn out different from in my head but it was so much better. I hate it when anime characters moan and groan and beat themselves up over many episodes.Good thing Chamber can put it all in perspective. His conclusion is sound. Both sides in the conflict cannot come to an understanding.The Hideauze use bio methods to expand and prosper. The Galactic Alliance creates AI, wormhole gates and Chamber to create their civilization. With little or no prospect for peace there can only be total war till one side emerge victorious.

I believe that Kugel did create a cult around himself to kill whalesquids. Afterall Ledo woke up much later after he got to Earth. It's very likely Kugel got salvaged much earlier but got a different response from his discoverers. To them he may well be a god sent to help them. For Ledo he decided to cooperate with Gargantia to find his own footing on Earth. Maybe Kughel decided it was best to appear Godlike so he can dominate his cult worshippers and survive on his terms.

It's getting very interesting now. Together they can unite Earth under one umbrella and set it on a similar course to the Galactic Alliance. Or if Kughel realize he will have more power here why would he even want to go home. Might be best to set up a new Human centered empire on Earth.

Can't wait to see how Ledo will react .

Traece
2013-06-09, 20:11
Ledo's behavior was painfully inconsistent with vaporizing those pirates early on. It really bugged me that they didn't address that. I was thankful when Chamber gave his own analysis. It was interesting to hear.

Never expected Kugel to show up! Or his machine caliber anyway. Looks like he may have been taking down whalesquids too.

In reality these are two very different issues. Previously the pirates were being used as a way for him to cement a place for himself in this unknown society. He had to make a show of force and capability. The pirates were also a threat to him (in that they would attempt to kill him and disrupt his lifestyle). Edit: Also I suspect that Ledo would think of the pirates as being like terrorists, or dissidents. Enemies to civilization. In this case, he knows what they are and what they represent. They're just humans who are bullying other humans. Not humans disguised as aliens.

The Hideauze threat was a sham. He was killing under the guise of them being this horrible alien lifeform trying to destroy their civilization. As it was said: He has seen the enemy, and he is us. That's why Chamber's dialogue at the end is important, because he's establishing the fact that: "Yes, 'we' are the enemy. But it's also motivated by politics and a heritage of hatred for one-another and nothing will change that. Get over it."

At the end of the day, the revelation isn't important at all. It doesn't change anything. It's just like your average mystery. Solving a mystery doesn't change the outcome. Sometimes it doesn't even change what happened at all.

GreyZone
2013-06-09, 20:19
I am a bit confused: When Chamber was talking about how the Hideauze were "giving up their humanity", at that exact moment we could see the "cultists". Maybe their are PRO-Hideauze after all?

Or maybe it was just to show how the GA handles people who have "given up their humanity".

mikeomni
2013-06-09, 20:20
Wow, future comms suck. Encrypted photonic communication ... I assume that's something like laser comms which require line of sight. Why else would Kugel's unit wait so long to answer Ledo's SOS? It took primitive radio to bring them together.

yankky5
2013-06-09, 20:25
Oh wow. this ep was just awesome the sheer depth of this ep was more than usual!! 10/10 for me, Definetely one of the best plot and character build up in this batch of animes.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 20:29
Actually if you read I pointed out that the GA have also lost their humanity ;)

I don't think you have read a single thing of what I wrote.

They didn't lose it, they simply suppress it. Ledo is a living proof of that.


Ledo and all of the members of the alliance are arguably still humans. They can stop being Nazi any time. that's not written in their genes.


I didn't even imply any kind of superiority in my previous posts I merely argued that while we have proofs that the alliance individuals are still human, we don't have any about the Hideauze, and you seem to agree that they aren't.


It's more like watching star trek and saying humans are fundamentally superior to say, klingons. That's just dumb frankly, they're different species.

Klingons are intelligent, are capable of emotions, can develop a culture, can build civilizations, can be reasoned with, and can even make peace and accept agreements.

If Hideauze are capable of that (and I'm not saying that they must have all of the above), then I agree that they should be treated like humans. If they are not, then you'd need to explain why they should be treated any different than you would with termites.

If your only argument is that I think that anything non-human is automatically inferior to humans, you aren't talking to me but to a strawman.

Diveman
2013-06-09, 20:44
I am a bit confused: When Chamber was talking about how the Hideauze were "giving up their humanity", at that exact moment we could see the "cultists". Maybe their are PRO-Hideauze after all?

Or maybe it was just to show how the GA handles people who have "given up their humanity".

I think the cultists are from Kugel's group. Maybe Kugel did what Ledo didn't, he showed himself as an all powerful being and formed a cult to worship and obey him.

Cloudedmind
2013-06-09, 20:58
Whether or not the Hideaze are still human doesn't matter to me, as that doesn't necessarily make them mindless beasts either. We really don't know what their level of intelligence is.

Chamber himself pointed out that the vast difference between the physical makeup of humans and the Hideaze means that the Hideaze have no need for certain types of human constructs, no point in building things you don't need or engaging in things you don't value, doesn't make them any less worthy of existent though, or on the same level as mere animals.

It's kind of sad how the thinking you're either human or an animal hasn't changed. There can in fact be a third way.

So what if the Hideaze gave up their humanity, so what? Who's to say the human way is the only way, or even the best way? In the end that's on each person to decide for themselves, but that doesn't mean the other side are just animals/or have turned into animals or that they should be judged on how much they measure up to our human standards. Why when they may not even be human anymore. Our standards most likely wouldn't apply to them. They may not have need for our human way of thinking, or care about the things we may hold dear, because they're different.

Of course that's not to say that I think the Hideaze are all grand and good and the GA is solely in the wrong, as Chamber pointed out the vast difference between the two have now possibly made it impossible for them to co-exist, one side winning would mean the death /extermination of the other. Both sides are now just fighting for survival.

Traece
2013-06-09, 20:58
I think the cultists are from Kugel's group. Maybe Kugel did what Ledo didn't, he showed himself as an all powerful being and formed a cult to worship and obey him.
It would seem that Kugel is the all-powerful destroyer of the whalesquids, the unkillable foe. The dread of mankind. He comes from space to rule us all.

Something like that, was the impression I got. Clearly his little society has a lot to do with his ability to kill whalesquids due to the fact that they were staked all over his ship(s).

FredFriendly
2013-06-09, 21:00
I'm not sure if that counts as co-existence. The whalesquids basically killed any human that dared to cross their borders.

I know I have a short-term memory problem, but I don't remember, other than Pinion's brother, any mention of the whalesquids actually killing humans.

Which also reminds me of one of my earlier posts, which I don't remember anyone responding to, where I pondered what it was that caused the Gargantians to be so fearful of the whalesquids to begin with. When they heard the whalesquid swarm was coming, many of the Gargantians were visibly "frightened to death." Maybe it's my faulty memory again.

Surprised that even as a mechanic, Pinion was able to repair/install the technology they found.

One minute, they pull some blob of unrecognizable junk out of the water. A couple minutes later, it's all shiny and like new, and ready to blow away the competition. Was this barely believable unbelievable miraculous restoration achievement simply a result of the moron Pinion's incredible skills? So, if he [they] were able to resurrect that ancient piece of computerized technology in a matter of minutes, why did Pinion need Chamber's help in discovering what that other piece of junk was? Is this just another case of anime logic?

Jan-Poo
2013-06-09, 21:12
I know I have a short-term memory problem, but I don't remember, other than Pinion's brother, any mention of the whalesquids actually killing humans.

We only have one certain death but consider the following:

1) Everyone thinks that the whalesquids should not be messed with while not thinking of them as anything different from dangerous animals.

2) Fairlock believed that the whole fleet was at risk and everyone was scared to death when the swarm of whalesquids passed them.

3) There were likely others who knew about the ruins in the mist, and they knew there was powerful technology awaiting there, but even unscrupulous pirates preferred to attack other humans than dealing with whalesquids.

4) We know that whalesquids are very aggressive, and that when feel threatened they attack indiscriminately.


Just how likely it is that they never killed anyone except Pinion's brother?

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-09, 21:16
To an A.I. like Chamber this argument of his surely is perfectly sound, but to my ears it's incredibly hollow and semantic. Chamber uses words like "pure" and "civilization" a lot to defend his position - surely no coincidence. In his logic any sacrifice is justifiable to preserve civilization, and his own existence is the proof of the purity of the cause - effectively "Because I exist, the cause must be just."

We have one side that's given up their physical humanity and the trappings of civilization, and another which has kept their physical form on the strength of eugenics, slavery and advanced robotics. Yes, it's a mess - I know - but what I long for here is for Gen to put himself on the line, just this once. Choose a side and stick with it - make someone the good guy, and tell us what he thinks the right answer to try and resolve this terrible mess is.

Ledo, of course, could be the good guy. He's a fine protagonist, and certainly a victim - but Gen has already proved himself adept at creating those. What will Ledo choose to do from here, and will it make any difference? If this really is a different sort of show for Urobuchi Gen, what I want to see is for Ledo to make a stand for what he believes in his soul is right - and for that act to actually have an effect.

GreyZone
2013-06-09, 21:19
One minute, they pull some blob of unrecognizable junk out of the water. A couple minutes later, it's all shiny and like new, and ready to blow away the competition. Was this barely believable unbelievable miraculous restoration achievement simply a result of the moron Pinion's incredible skills? So, if he [they] were able to resurrect that ancient piece of computerized technology in a matter of minutes, why did Pinion need Chamber's help in discovering what that other piece of junk was? Is this just another case of anime logic?

The material was VERY SUPER MEGA resistant against rusting, and probably also got non-stick coating (although they call it "ancient" the technology is still superior to ours). So all they had to do was to clean it the same way as they would have cleaned, say, a window.

maplehurry
2013-06-09, 21:24
I'm not sure if that counts as co-existence. The whalesquids basically killed any human that dared to cross their borders.


Just like tigers, bears, some species of apes, and Texans.

If they are not, then you'd need to explain why they should be treated any different than you would with termites.

well, for starters, apes are treated differently from bugs.

GreyZone
2013-06-09, 21:40
I don't know what you are talking about anymore... what is the point, you all want to make? All I see now are comparisons, but I have no idea what all of you want to convince the others of...

FredFriendly
2013-06-09, 22:09
We only have one certain death but consider the following:

1) Everyone thinks that the whalesquids should not be messed with while not thinking of them as anything different from dangerous animals.

2) Fairlock believed that the whole fleet was at risk and everyone was scared to death when the swarm of whalesquids passed them.

3) There were likely others who knew about the ruins in the mist, and they knew there was powerful technology awaiting there, but even unscrupulous pirates preferred to attack other humans than dealing with whalesquids.

4) We know that whalesquids are very aggressive, and that when feel threatened they attack indiscriminately.


Just how likely it is that they never killed anyone except Pinion's brother?

Probably not very likely, but we have yet to hear otherwise. Nonetheless, re:

1. and 2. you would not shut down your entire fleet and quake in your boots if a swarm of sharks (another very dangerous animal) approached, so, back to my original question, what happened in the past to cause the Gargantians to be so fearful of the whalesuids as to go to the lengths they do? If it was just:

3. and 4. whalesquids attacking other creatures that enter their territory, that would not lead Fairlock (or his predecessors) to the conclusion that they needed to shut down the entire fleet to avoid a fatal confrontation.

It makes me wonder if this is something that was explained in the source material, but just left out of the anime for whatever reason the writers chose to leave it out.

The material was VERY SUPER MEGA resistant against rusting, and probably also got non-stick coating (although they call it "ancient" the technology is still superior to ours). So all they had to do was to clean it the same way as they would have cleaned, say, a window.

And read the instruction manual to learn how to a) connect a power supply to charge up the hundreds, if not thousands of years old batteries (if you even had the power equivalent available; where I come from there are a gazillion different power supplies just for cell phone, even within the same brand), and, b) turn the bloody thing on, let alone get it to fire. Pinion and crew must be electro-mechanical geniuses.

I can believe that the unidentifiable blob could be cleaned up in a jiffy, being space-age and all that, but getting it to work in minutes (hours? days?) seems extremely far-fetched to me. Not just linguistically speaking, the language most likely having changed dramatically since the blob was made, so they probably couldn't even read the instruction manual, but one would think that they would have had to use Chamber's abilities (which I was led to believe that they did not) to crack whatever password system the thing would have had to prevent use by unauthorized persons. It's not like they just found a howitzer and some ammo that they could just fire at will.

It's my theory that, if they are as technologically advanced as to be able to resurrect and use such an advanced technological gadget, then they should also be able to make technology more advanced than that we've seen them otherwise possess.

Cloudedmind
2013-06-09, 22:22
And read the instruction manual to learn how to a) connect a power supply to charge up the hundreds, if not thousands of years old batteries (if you even had the power equivalent available; where I come from there are a gazillion different power supplies just for cell phone, even within the same brand), and, b) turn the bloody thing on, let alone get it to fire. Pinion and crew must be electro-mechanical geniuses.

I can believe that the unidentifiable blob could be cleaned up in a jiffy, being space-age and all that, but getting it to work in minutes (hours? days?) seems extremely far-fetched to me. Not just linguistically speaking, the language most likely having changed dramatically since the blob was made, so they probably couldn't even read the instruction manual, but one would think that they would have had to use Chamber's abilities (which I was led to believe that they did not) to crack whatever password system the thing would have had to prevent use by unauthorized persons. It's not like they just found a howitzer and some ammo that they could just fire at will.

It's my theory that, if they are as technologically advanced as to be able to resurrect and use such an advanced technological gadget, then they should also be able to make technology more advanced than that we've seen them otherwise possess.

It's possible that this particular tech was already in operable condition. Meaning the pulled it up and saw that it was still "on" in a manner of speaking. We don't know why kind of energy reserves this thing had, it could have run on some type of "battery" and still had some juice left, and the chick who gets inside just starts pushing buttons until something happens. Not the best way to go about things but yeah.

FredFriendly
2013-06-09, 22:28
It's possible that this particular tech was already in operable condition. Meaning the pulled it up and saw that it was still "on" in a manner of speaking. We don't know why kind of energy reserves this thing had, it could have run on some type of "battery" and still had some juice left, and the chick who gets inside just starts pushing buttons until something happens. Not the best way to go about things but yeah.

Loaded, cocked, and ready to fire just by randomly pushing some buttons? Give-me-a-break. That's total nonsense. You really think the Evolvers or the Union Guys would have created such a high-tech weapon that just anyone could sit in and fire willy-nilly???

Cloudedmind
2013-06-09, 22:39
Loaded, cocked, and ready to fire just by randomly pushing some buttons? Give-me-a-break. That's total nonsense. You really think the Evolvers or the Union Guys would have created such a high-tech weapon that just anyone could sit in and fire willy-nilly???

Considering I'm neither I can't say what they were thinking, I'm just speculating based on what was shown.

It probably just comes down to "anime logic":
Staff 1: We need them to use something big to scare the pirates?!
Staff 2: How about we have them use the tech they just pulled up to show how badass it is!
Staff 1: Brilliant!!!!

Thus we get that scene.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-09, 23:09
It would have been just as telling if the gun that they only had the barest idea of how it worked had misfired and vaporized a good portion of their deck with it... the episode is designed to show Pinion and the others with him being baited by the lure of power, but it's hitting them with the stupid stick rather more than it needs to.

FlareKnight
2013-06-09, 23:10
Will be interesting to see how long Kugel has been awake. At the very least it seems to have been long enough to start up his own cult. One could say being older and in a position of authority before all this happened it was easy for him to make the switch to showing off his tech and forcing the locals that found him into submitting to him. Certainly would make it easy to go on the Hideauze war when you have an entire army ready to follow you.

As if Ledo wasn't in enough of a crisis he know has to deal with this. No idea how he's going to respond and interact with Kugel. He's very uneasy about continuing his war at this point, but Kugel doesn't seem to be that concerned. Of course he may not have access to the same information as Ledo, but at the same time that might not matter to him now.

Pinion really continues to be a moron. I mean nice enough that your brother was avenged, but now you turn into a power hungry lunatic? Let's just declare war on the entire planet...I bet some of the people that came along are really wishing they'd stayed with Gargantia :heh:. If Pinion doesn't see the danger of bringing together a ton of people you defeated with pure force....he's going to have a rude awakening when the eventual mutiny occurs. I get that it's about being corrupted by power, but it's just making him look dumber than usual.

The only thing that really bothered me was the reaction scene on Gargantia. It's like everyone on that ship was reacting after getting the same revelation that Ledo got in the previous episode. There shouldn't have been any shock here that he wiped out some Hideauze, that was kind of the point of going. Although to be fair it kind of still fits since it wasn't like they considered his point of view before he left in the first place.

Traece
2013-06-09, 23:29
Loaded, cocked, and ready to fire just by randomly pushing some buttons? Give-me-a-break. That's total nonsense. You really think the Evolvers or the Union Guys would have created such a high-tech weapon that just anyone could sit in and fire willy-nilly???
Fun fact: The military doesn't make weapons that are hard to fire. That makes them hard to fire. If they need to fire them, they want to be able to do so quickly.

Just as well, in hundreds of years time there will likely be very little change in the actual firing of even the most advanced weapons in terms of the person pulling the trigger. The mechanics of it can be as advanced as they need to be, but when it comes to firing the bullet it has to be as simple as it can be.

That having been said, they manually pointed it at the target to begin with, so all they really had to do was find the big red button, so to speak.

Unknown Soldier
2013-06-09, 23:37
Wow, what the hell just happened at the end? I think we're about to jump the shark here.

I guess the last episode will end with Ledo killing Kugel and blowing up his Machine Caliber in a huge battle where everyone on the ships gets killed. Amy will probably get killed when Kugel vaporizes her with his death beam. Dat Gen Butch Ending incoming!

Cloudedmind
2013-06-10, 00:02
Will be interesting to see how long Kugel has been awake. At the very least it seems to have been long enough to start up his own cult. One could say being older and in a position of authority before all this happened it was easy for him to make the switch to showing off his tech and forcing the locals that found him into submitting to him. Certainly would make it easy to go on the Hideauze war when you have an entire army ready to follow you.

As if Ledo wasn't in enough of a crisis he know has to deal with this. No idea how he's going to respond and interact with Kugel. He's very uneasy about continuing his war at this point, but Kugel doesn't seem to be that concerned. Of course he may not have access to the same information as Ledo, but at the same time that might not matter to him now.

Pinion really continues to be a moron. I mean nice enough that your brother was avenged, but now you turn into a power hungry lunatic? Let's just declare war on the entire planet...I bet some of the people that came along are really wishing they'd stayed with Gargantia :heh:. If Pinion doesn't see the danger of bringing together a ton of people you defeated with pure force....he's going to have a rude awakening when the eventual mutiny occurs. I get that it's about being corrupted by power, but it's just making him look dumber than usual.

The only thing that really bothered me was the reaction scene on Gargantia. It's like everyone on that ship was reacting after getting the same revelation that Ledo got in the previous episode. There shouldn't have been any shock here that he wiped out some Hideauze, that was kind of the point of going. Although to be fair it kind of still fits since it wasn't like they considered his point of view before he left in the first place.

I don't think they were JUST reacting to the killing of the Hideaze though, but Pinion's over all messaging of he's not sharing and declaring war on anyone who came near/tried to take it by force, which seems to go against the Gargantian and many of the other ships way of doing things (the whole not wanting to willing share/trade thing). Even Flange was shocked at Pinions proposal to not just share/trade what they'd found with the other ships. Basically he was being greedy, and stupid by declaring what they'd found. You're just asking to be attacked by pirates.

Quarkboy
2013-06-10, 00:32
What do people think Kugel's reaction will be when Ledo tells him about the true nature of the Hideauze?

Nvis
2013-06-10, 00:36
Just found something that can finally destroy Chamber.:heh:

FlareKnight
2013-06-10, 00:58
What do people think Kugel's reaction will be when Ledo tells him about the true nature of the Hideauze?I'd probably go with initial disbelief followed by not being overly affected. If Kugel's been in the military for such a long time he might not care what the Hideauze are or used to be. They are the enemy and that's all that matters.

MeggieMay
2013-06-10, 01:17
The idea that Kugel has started a cult of Whalesquid killers is just one theory of what is going on here, so lets not get a cart before a horse, so to speak. Until we see the next episode, that is just one of several possibility for what may happen. I've seen just as good scenarios put forth by other viewers, both here and at other forums, that point out that Klugel may actually still be in status and/or his unit has been captured but he may not be cooperating with the group who showed up at the end. Also, someone at Random Curiosities said they saw the Hideauze symbols on the back of the cloaks of the "cult." I keep putting "cult" in parenthesis because we may end up finding out they aren't really a cult, though I personally do think they're some sort of extremist going by the wacky looks on their faces. Still, other than Striker we didn't actually see Kugel. Maybe he didn't turn native or god-head but is a captive? It's another scenario worth thinking about. Also, Ledo didn't have a direct message from Klugel. What Ledo got was a encrypted pulse from the Striker - that could turn out to be a message but it also may be a default automated beacon type thing that was set off by proximity to Chamber. I actually just went back and checked this out. It was enlightening because I was wrong in thinking that they were using radio waves to talk but it's not that at all (also whoever pointed out that the Striker could have been on the other side of the planet gets a cookie from me - sorry, I actually didn't think of that issue and it's a good one!). I'm not sure what to think of the message now, though I did wonder if it was a direct message or just some sort of identification beacon when I saw the episode.

I noticed something else when I was doing this check with the next week teaser (which didn't get screened capped at RC). While it seems to show someone other than Ledo in a pilot suit, I'm not too sure that it's Klugel in the suit but instead is someone else :uhoh: We might have a Mecha jack going on here, though we also just might have a off model picture as well (I'd almost lean towards that at this point). Hopefully someone will get some good screen caps of the next week stuff put up soon (I don't have a good way to post screencaps myself).

BTW, I've yet to see anyone on this thread bring up the fact that Kugel outranks Ledo. Ledo's ranking was an important plot point last week, so Kugel's reappearance could potentially cause some big problems here.

rocket
2013-06-10, 01:32
To an A.I. like Chamber this argument of his surely is perfectly sound, but to my ears it's incredibly hollow and semantic. Chamber uses words like "pure" and "civilization" a lot to defend his position - surely no coincidence. In his logic any sacrifice is justifiable to preserve civilization, and his own existence is the proof of the purity of the cause - effectively "Because I exist, the cause must be just."


Yes, Chamber justifies Humanity's war... because without it he wouldn't exist. If all humanity went squid... he wouldn't exist. I'm still not convinced he won't be a near final antagonist for Ledo... remember the foreshadowing of how Ledo could not fish without a computer to target for him? I can imagine Ledo having to fight, but first having to unplug Chamber because ultimately Chamber is subtly manipulating him.


We have one side that's given up their physical humanity and the trappings of civilization, and another which has kept their physical form on the strength of eugenics, slavery and advanced robotics. Yes, it's a mess - I know - but what I long for here is for Gen to put himself on the line, just this once. Choose a side and stick with it - make someone the good guy, and tell us what he thinks the right answer to try and resolve this terrible mess is...

The only good one here is clearly Amy. I'm betting on a flawed Ledo sacrificing himself for her and Gargantia's vision of a future of co-exsistance.

Traece
2013-06-10, 01:46
What do people think Kugel's reaction will be when Ledo tells him about the true nature of the Hideauze?

I wouldn't be surprised if he already knows and just doesn't care. He could've even known the whole time. After all, he's an officer. Plus, that's usually how these things work out.

"How can you continue the mission? It's wrong and stuff!" "Who cares?! It's politics and stuff! Now I'm dead. You're naive. *bleh*"

Shalcker
2013-06-10, 03:28
Let's go with more crazy conjectures!

Signs on "cult" people are actually looking more like Evolver. It's definitely not Alliance sign which would make sense if Kugel was calling shots there.

So... Kugel has sided with Hideause! His Machine Caliber is in hands of enemy! And he'll go and annihilate human fleet (that much is given - i'm sure noone expects "omnious ships in the distance" to mean "let's talk entire next episode!") while simultaneously trying to talk Ledo into joining him.

Haruyasha
2013-06-10, 03:57
So he finally appears... I was waiting for him to appear.

Hell, even last episode with Ledo asking Chamber to declassify the video.. I was totally expecting Chamber to say: "No, you are not the highest ranking authority within the area."

Kleeyook
2013-06-10, 04:17
Umm. I feel bad for the GA to be viewed as another Nazi space or Blue Cosmos here.

I can't comprehend what the hell the Evolvers were thinking, and what the Hideauze are thinking now. Maybe you should turn into one of them and tell me how you feel.

There's a huge possibility that if the CA wasn't formed, and the GA didn't become what it has become now, the human race would go extinct by the Hideauze.

It's like how a few eccentric people voluntarily and needlessly morph themselves into squid, then start expanding their kind, until the current humans become the minority, discriminated and have no choice bu to turn into one... They just had to choose the most absurd choice possible and leave us with no choice...

What will Ledo think if the Earth is a peaceful planet where all humans are non-aggressive whalesquids who tell Ledo to turn into one as them if they want to live together in harmony out of their "peaceful advice"? Will Ledo has choice to choose?

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-10, 04:37
There's a huge possibility that if the CA wasn't formed, and the GA didn't become what it has become now, the human race would go extinct by the Hideauze.



Even if the Continental Union wasn't formed the Evolver would've still been attacked as they performed human experiments violating human rights and international law.

We heard the Evolver founder spouting international laws and ethics are are obsolete which means in his view he doesn't care any sort of enforced morality just he wants to perform his experiments and SHOW THEM ALL.

The Continental Union likely formed as cooperation between countries to develop space infrastructure so humans can live in space and find a new world to colonize. They even figured out to create a wormhole travel.

In my opinion everybody else except the Evolvers recognized that evolving to space creatures is a dead end solution to their problem.

What happened to the Evolvers? Their descendants are nothing more than animals. Individual Hideauze doesn't even have beam weapons anymore.

Much like the lightbug nanomachines the space flower just shoots out energy. It isn't human sophistication anymore just that particular species can do it.

-Sho-
2013-06-10, 05:00
With this episode , i just don't care about Pinion anymore , i hope he'll get what he deserves & die. He seek revenge but he's a complete idiot.
At this rate , i hope Whalesquids will get their revenge too.

FredFriendly
2013-06-10, 07:15
Fun fact: The military doesn't make weapons that are hard to fire. That makes them hard to fire. If they need to fire them, they want to be able to do so quickly.

Just as well, in hundreds of years time there will likely be very little change in the actual firing of even the most advanced weapons in terms of the person pulling the trigger. The mechanics of it can be as advanced as they need to be, but when it comes to firing the bullet it has to be as simple as it can be.

That having been said, they manually pointed it at the target to begin with, so all they really had to do was find the big red button, so to speak.

Okay, I've found the big red button to release all the nuclear weapons upon the Soviet Union. All I gotta do is push it, right?

Sure, the run-of-the-mill point and shoot mechanical military weapons that are in use now are easy to fire and, if they happen to fall into the enemies hands, they can then turn them on the original faction. But that was not your typical run-of-the-mill point and shoot mechanical military weapon. It was a highly advanced computerized weapon. If it did not have some kind of fail-safe security system in place to prevent unauthorized use, then whoever built it is dumber than I am. What the heck, I can even password protect my ten year old cell phone from someone else using it. Duh.

I'll agree with Cloudedmind, the writers chose anime logic and ignored realistic consistency, just to scare the pirates.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-10, 07:38
To an A.I. like Chamber this argument of his surely is perfectly sound, but to my ears it's incredibly hollow and semantic. Chamber uses words like "pure" and "civilization" a lot to defend his position - surely no coincidence. In his logic any sacrifice is justifiable to preserve civilization, and his own existence is the proof of the purity of the cause - effectively "Because I exist, the cause must be just."

I agree that Chamber's logic only works to a certain extent, but you aren't getting his message if you think Chamber makes it a matter of good VS bad or wrong VS right.

If you pay attention he isn't being partial on describing the two factions, he objectively examines their pros and their cons. For example he admits that humans are frail beings while Hideauze are extreme creatures.

And when you consider the he states that it all comes down to a war for different views in survival strategies and in which the losing side is going to be exterminated, you realize that he is justifying the alliance attacking the Hideauze as much as he is justifying the Hideauze for attacking humans.


Chamber reached the conclusion that the war is inevitable, which is a bit hasty in my opinion, but if that's true then all the rest that he said follows logically.
There is in fact no logic in not fighting when your existence is at stake and he doesn't have a choice in which side to fight on.


The idea that Kugel has started a cult of Whalesquid killers is just one theory of what is going on here, so lets not get a cart before a horse, so to speak. Until we see the next episode, that is just one of several possibility for what may happen. I've seen just as good scenarios put forth by other viewers, both here and at other forums, that point out that Klugel may actually still be in status and/or his unit has been captured but he may not be cooperating with the group who showed up at the end. Also, someone at Random Curiosities said they saw the Hideauze symbols on the back of the cloaks of the "cult." I keep putting "cult" in parenthesis because we may end up finding out they aren't really a cult, though I personally do think they're some sort of extremist going by the wacky looks on their faces. Still, other than Striker we didn't actually see Kugel. Maybe he didn't turn native or god-head but is a captive? It's another scenario worth thinking about. Also, Ledo didn't have a direct message from Klugel. What Ledo got was a encrypted pulse from the Striker - that could turn out to be a message but it also may be a default automated beacon type thing that was set off by proximity to Chamber. I actually just went back and checked this out. It was enlightening because I was wrong in thinking that they were using radio waves to talk but it's not that at all (also whoever pointed out that the Striker could have been on the other side of the planet gets a cookie from me - sorry, I actually didn't think of that issue and it's a good one!). I'm not sure what to think of the message now, though I did wonder if it was a direct message or just some sort of identification beacon when I saw the episode.

Well okay, though I don't quite agree with everything that you said, perhaps you have a point that the truth might be more complicated than what it seems.

Looking back, people thought that the whalesquids would cause problems and even deaths, and so far they didn't. Then people thought that Chamber and Ledo would become enemies, and so far they didn't. Now people think that Kugel is going to be the main enemy... well it might also turn out to be completely wrong.

However these new guys look like trouble not matter how you slice it. Whatever it is their reason a sane person wouldn't decorate his house with the carcasses of some dead animal, even less dead humans. I don't think it can be said that they are well preserved, they are not, their flesh shows lacerations and decay.

This might actually be a point against the theory that Kugel is in command, unless he became insane himself.

There's also to consider that these guys are going toward a fleet that exterminated a whole nest of whalesquids and they look happy.
It's very unlikely that they are pro whalesquids, unless they are so crazy that their bloodlust for a holy war is stronger than the sadness and anger for the dead whalesquids.

Striker doesn't look damaged in any way and she's sending a message.

If Kugel is still inside then Striker should wake him up as soon as she meets Chamber.

If Kugel is dead, then Striker is likely in standby mode waiting for someone of the alliance to come. I don't think that it's very likely that someone hijacked her. Pinion and his crew couldn't do a thing on Chamber, and Chamber refuses to take orders from anyone but Ledo, unless Ledo himself transfers authority.

Going by the cultist idea that seems almost undeniable, it seems that they view Strikers as a sort of idol. In a preview shot you see them watching in amazement at something that is above them. That's most likely Chamber. They'll be probably shocked when they'll see that there is another machine caliber.

If Striker refused to help them and never did anything but remaining in stand by that might be even more shocking for them.


I noticed something else when I was doing this check with the next week teaser (which didn't get screened capped at RC). While it seems to show someone other than Ledo in a pilot suit, I'm not too sure that it's Klugel in the suit but instead is someone else :uhoh: We might have a Mecha jack going on here, though we also just might have a off model picture as well (I'd almost lean towards that at this point). Hopefully someone will get some good screen caps of the next week stuff put up soon (I don't have a good way to post screencaps myself).

I don't know if you are looking at something different, but in the preview I've seen I can only see Ledo in a pilot suit.

Shinhwa
2013-06-10, 11:00
Feels like Chamber will get destroyed at the end of this series due to battle with Striker or something, or because of the weapons that were salvaged being stolen then used against him or something.

Ledo though, I don't think he will die.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-10, 12:03
I think Chamber's reasoning is based on the premise that the survival of an AI like him is a Good Thing. And so is the survival of the militaristic society he was built in. So we are being shown that AIs are human, too, and can bend logic to enhance their chances of survival. Chamber is this show's Kyuubei, it seems to me, bent on forcing humans into a life of combat, for reasons of his own.

Ledo is emotionally shattered by having seen that the Hideauze evolved, in part, from humans, that their young look fairly human, and that there are even Hideauze like the little one Chamber crushed that look quite humanoid. The human-like aspects of the Hideauze make no impression on Chamber. I'd say that Chamber is unemotional, but I have to say I felt some kind of hard emotion coming from him (it?) during his (its?) self-justifying explanation.

And now I hope it's time for more Amy in this show. And more of her brother, too.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-10, 12:38
Ledo is emotionally shattered by having seen that the Hideauze evolved, in part, from humans,
That seems rather strange. He didn't care about killing pirates. Though yeah, I can see why the baby killing would be different, but he seemed just as sorry about the adults, including those he killed in the war.

Irenesharda
2013-06-10, 13:25
The idea that Kugel has started a cult of Whalesquid killers is just one theory of what is going on here, so lets not get a cart before a horse, so to speak. Until we see the next episode, that is just one of several possibility for what may happen. I've seen just as good scenarios put forth by other viewers, both here and at other forums, that point out that Klugel may actually still be in status and/or his unit has been captured but he may not be cooperating with the group who showed up at the end. Also, someone at Random Curiosities said they saw the Hideauze symbols on the back of the cloaks of the "cult." I keep putting "cult" in parenthesis because we may end up finding out they aren't really a cult, though I personally do think they're some sort of extremist going by the wacky looks on their faces. Still, other than Striker we didn't actually see Kugel. Maybe he didn't turn native or god-head but is a captive? It's another scenario worth thinking about. Also, Ledo didn't have a direct message from Klugel. What Ledo got was a encrypted pulse from the Striker - that could turn out to be a message but it also may be a default automated beacon type thing that was set off by proximity to Chamber. I actually just went back and checked this out. It was enlightening because I was wrong in thinking that they were using radio waves to talk but it's not that at all (also whoever pointed out that the Striker could have been on the other side of the planet gets a cookie from me - sorry, I actually didn't think of that issue and it's a good one!). I'm not sure what to think of the message now, though I did wonder if it was a direct message or just some sort of identification beacon when I saw the episode.

I noticed something else when I was doing this check with the next week teaser (which didn't get screened capped at RC). While it seems to show someone other than Ledo in a pilot suit, I'm not too sure that it's Klugel in the suit but instead is someone else :uhoh: We might have a Mecha jack going on here, though we also just might have a off model picture as well (I'd almost lean towards that at this point). Hopefully someone will get some good screen caps of the next week stuff put up soon (I don't have a good way to post screencaps myself).

BTW, I've yet to see anyone on this thread bring up the fact that Kugel outranks Ledo. Ledo's ranking was an important plot point last week, so Kugel's reappearance could potentially cause some big problems here.

I did, way back in the beginning of the thread.



I'm just saying that assuming that suddenly Kugel and Red will be enemies is jumping to conclusions. Especially for a soldier trained to obey his CO. And I don't care how much more in touch with his humanity Red has become, he still carries the mind and instincts of a soldier.

I mention and agree with many of the points you bring up as well as the fact that since Kugel is Red's CO and he's trained to obey him could bring problems. Also Chamber wouldn't go against him unless it was in detriment to Red's health.

However, we don't even know if Kugel will be the enemy or not. The episode preview doesn't show any fight scenes, so it's really up in the air what will happen.

FredFriendly
2013-06-10, 13:35
That seems rather strange. He didn't care about killing pirates. Though yeah, I can see why the baby killing would be different, but he seemed just as sorry about the adults, including those he killed in the war.

I speculate that, after having slaughtered every whalesuid in sight, including the "mother" and "babies", he sees videos which could just as well have been Hollywood mock-ups for propaganda purposes, the veractiy of which even Chamber couldn't verify. In the video he sees what appears to be, not only the first human-to-Hideauze transformation, but also a subsequent transformation tagged with the same name as the young girl who appeared previously in the footage.

At that point, there is nothing to convince him either way, that what he saw was real, or faked. Yes, it could be actual footage of actual events, or, no, it could have been something the Disney of his day could have made.

Then, all of a sudden, right after watching the footage, right before his eyes appears a humanoid creature that seems to look identical to the squidgirl in the video. In an instant, what could have been just a bunch of malarkey, becomes a 100% certainty in Ledo's mind. Yes, the Hideauze really are transformed humans.

It's a psychological thing.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-10, 13:41
That seems rather strange. He didn't care about killing pirates. Though yeah, I can see why the baby killing would be different, but he seemed just as sorry about the adults, including those he killed in the war.

Even during the days of Rome pirates are considered Enemy of all mankind.

Besides Amy asked for help. He thought this was a good way to clear the impasse between him and the Gargantians.

There are other groups of humans in space called Drifters. It wouldn't surprise me if some of those groups became space pirates.

It has been indoctrinated to Ledo that humans should help each other for the advancement of the human race. Gargantians though technologically primitive and have cultural differences to the Galactic Alliance at their core have these values. Give water to those that catches fish.

Pirates go against these values and is classified as a threat for endangering their fellow humans.

Unfortunately Ledo having issues for the episode with the revelations of the origin of Hideauze does not notice Pinion mad with greed is becoming detrimental to the advancement of the human race.

If he did he join Flange with sharing and trading as he believes in the Galactic Alliance and Gargantian philosophy that humans should cooperate.

Iron Maw
2013-06-10, 13:59
I don't there is enough faceplams to express how "gone full retard" Pinion was in this episode. What little sympathy he got with me when story of his brother came up pretty much vanished. Now, he's just high power and continues to treat Ledo as tool rather than a partner. If he his skills weren't irreplaceable Flange should just throw him into the brig.

Chamber completely surprised me here, never did I think he would gain some sort of character development and I agree with his general argument. the GA and Hideauze will never see eye-eye because they are too different in every way now and the nature of the war remains unchanged even with truth.

...and now we got Cults showing up now with Kugel (somehow) in toe? Yeah, nothing going to go wrong here, not all. :uhoh:

Ledo's behavior was painfully inconsistent with vaporizing those pirates early on. It really bugged me that they didn't address that. I was thankful when Chamber gave his own analysis. It was interesting to hear.

That seems rather strange. He didn't care about killing pirates. Though yeah, I can see why the baby killing would be different, but he seemed just as sorry about the adults, including those he killed in the war.

I kind of agree here too. Even if you could rationalize the Pirates as deserters as Tirece said, it still felt little over the top.

Irenesharda
2013-06-10, 14:08
Also, someone at Random Curiosities said they saw the Hideauze symbols on the back of the cloaks of the "cult."

I noticed something else when I was doing this check with the next week teaser (which didn't get screened capped at RC). While it seems to show someone other than Ledo in a pilot suit, I'm not too sure that it's Klugel in the suit but instead is someone else :uhoh: We might have a Mecha jack going on here, though we also just might have a off model picture as well (I'd almost lean towards that at this point). Hopefully someone will get some good screen caps of the next week stuff put up soon (I don't have a good way to post screencaps myself).


Looking back, I see the symbols on their backs are identical to the ones on their faces and do look like the Hideauze, but not like the ones that Gargantia has, but like the way they looked originally as the Evolvers, especially that big Matsumoto one.

As to next weeks teaser, after looking again, I think it's just Red being show in the pilot suit. There are three shots of an Alliance pilot and I think they are all Red. Kugel hasn't been shown once.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-10, 14:22
It wouldn't surprise me if they are an Evolver remnant as it looks like Gargantia make have been a Continental Union/Galactic Alliance remnant all along.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/1370481355381_zps6b767001.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/1370481355381_zps6b767001.jpg.html)

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/Gargantiatransmitter_zps7917a969.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/Gargantiatransmitter_zps7917a969.jpg.html)

Dark Wing
2013-06-10, 14:50
I'll agree with Cloudedmind, the writers chose anime logic and ignored realistic consistency, just to scare the pirates.

I don't know about you guy but see how I have no real military training when it comes to weaponry. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and let this one slide. It's just a cannon after all and what are the odds that an unauthorized person getting their hands on a cannon located in their own base?

Triple_R
2013-06-10, 16:37
I really liked Chamber's speech. In particular, I found his point about how the Hideauze had thrown away civilization (and, with it, an essential element of humanity) to be rather compelling, honestly. However, I'm not sure I buy his argument that peaceful co-existence is impossible. Still, on the whole, Chamber's speech was probably the highlight of the episode.


A couple general comments:

1. Up until this episode, I didn't have a major problem with Pinion. I saw him as something of an Indiana Jones or Han Solo, and so I was cool with his rougher edges. But Pinion's greed and lust for power is truly overcoming him now. He's gradually becoming a monstrous person, imo.

2. I didn't have a problem with how Ledo was portrayed this episode. It's perfectly understandable, and it's honestly what I expected after last episode's dramatic reveals. I'm glad Ledo didn't just easily shake everything off in this episode. However, I hope that Ledo will be a little less shell-shocked in future episodes

Anh_Minh
2013-06-10, 16:53
I really liked Chamber's speech. In particular, I found his point about how the Hideauze had thrown away civilization (and, with it, an essential element of humanity) to be rather compelling, honestly. However, I'm not sure I buy his argument that peaceful co-existence is impossible. Still, on the whole, Chamber's speech was probably the highlight of the episode.

I liked it for its humanity. "I will not accept a worldview that rejects me. Fuck the Hideauze."

A couple general comments:

1. Up until this episode, I didn't have a major problem with Pinion. I saw him as something of an Indiana Jones or Han Solo, and so I was cool with his rougher edges. But Pinion's greed and lust for power is truly overcoming him now. He's gradually becoming a monstrous person, imo.

And a monumental idiot. Without trade, he might as well be a squid himself, sitting on a treasure for which he has no use. And he gathers the worst people around him, like that won't bite him in the ass later.

Triple_R
2013-06-10, 16:59
I liked it for its humanity. "I will not accept a worldview that rejects me. Fuck the Hideauze."

I did like how Chamber's speech reinforced the value of his own existence. You're right, there is a strong element of humanity there.


And a monumental idiot. Without trade, he might as well be a squid himself, sitting on a treasure for which he has no use. And he gathers the worst people around him, like that won't bite him in the ass later.

Agreed. He's attracting cutthroat opportunists. A lot of those people will abandon at the first sign of serious trouble.

Ridget's support will be tinier, but it will also likely be more loyal.


And yeah, hoarding this stuff like he was a dragon defending his wealth isn't going to help anybody. He should use it in trade, and as negotiating pieces.

mikeomni
2013-06-10, 18:29
I don't know about you guy but see how I have no real military training when it comes to weaponry. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and let this one slide. It's just a cannon after all and what are the odds that an unauthorized person getting their hands on a cannon located in their own base?

Ditto. It's not a world ending weapon for it's time. Neither is it a vehicle. If the weapon is loaded, all you should need is to point and shoot. That they were able to power it is probably as designed. That Pinion would use it right after repairs was alarming. Can they even read "Front Faces Enemy"?

Jan-Poo
2013-06-10, 18:29
It wouldn't surprise me if they are an Evolver remnant as it looks like Gargantia make have been a Continental Union/Galactic Alliance remnant all along.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/1370481355381_zps6b767001.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/1370481355381_zps6b767001.jpg.html)

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/Gargantiatransmitter_zps7917a969.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/Gargantiatransmitter_zps7917a969.jpg.html)


Well you do realize that according to that image you can see a squid even in the GA's symbol?

Perhaps people are trying too hard to see squids in every thing.
I'm not sure how much should I trust that.

Traece
2013-06-10, 18:37
Ditto. It's not a world ending weapon for it's time. Neither is it a vehicle. If the weapon is loaded, all you should need is to point and shoot. That they were able to power it is probably as designed. That Pinion would use it right after repairs was alarming. Can they even read "Front Faces Enemy"?

Someone made a complaint about my comments about this earlier, rather hilariously. It's not a WMD. It doesn't require authentication codes and keys and button pressing.

Targeting takes more effort than firing. If you wanted to fire a missile from a military plane your biggest hurdle would be selecting it, and giving it a target. When it comes down to time to fire it, you still have a button that does it.

That "EMP" weapon was said to be closer to modern human weapons. The laser they fired looked to be purposefully weaker. Looks to me like the sort of thing one points and shoots. Having lasers and chrome doesn't make a bit of difference.

Edit: I agree that Pinion's choices are very poor. I don't necessarily think they're quite as horrible and death-deserving as a lot of other people... :heh:

He is setting himself up for failure though. I feel like Gargantia will ultimately have to save him from his demise.

Piesum
2013-06-10, 18:39
Interesting episode.

Maybe the Colonel Kugel isn't even there. Maybe his AI has taken over. They have all the intelligence of humans and they're obviously way more powerful. If somehow, any of them snapped, and stopped being loyal to humans.. they could rule the world.

mikeomni
2013-06-10, 18:53
We've got multiple coming of age stories, makes more sense if you put it in a just out of high school context

Ledo the protagonist has to outgrow his school (GA), his parents (Chamber & Kugel) then make his own decisions independently. Coming from a regimented environment where everything was black and white, his struggle is with ambiguity and too many options that have no optimal solution.

Ridget is your classic iinchou-type. She had a known environment with people above and below her while being groomed for a position of power. Graduating from that environment she has to rebuild everything she has previously gained (.e.g. from school to work place). It's not something you can do just by yourself. You have to trust others and earn their respect.

Pinion is your self-confident delinquent. He uses and abuses what's around him for gain. When he acquires power he is going to misuse it because his arrogance blinds him to his mistakes. Bad decision making will compound until it's sad conclusion. Whether he will be an example of what not to follow or how to recover from such tragic mistakes remains to be seen.

Amy is your happy-go-lucky / socialite child. She gets along well with people. But even well meaning people can do harm. Careless words/gestures cost the lives of several pirates to her regret. Imposing her outlook and opinion on others did not result in converting people to her point of view. She must deal with the disparity of her usual positive outlook and reality of what she can affect. At the moment she is set aside being emo, potentially to become a victim of events outside of her control. Somehow she must weather it, would like to see how this point gets illustrated.

Iron Maw
2013-06-10, 19:01
Agreed. He's attracting cutthroat opportunists. A lot of those people will abandon at the first sign of serious trouble.


That's exactly where I expect his hubris to hit him, Pinion is building his empire on glass foundations and shaky alliances.

Interesting episode.

Maybe the Colonel Kugel isn't even there. Maybe his AI has taken over. They have all the intelligence of humans and they're obviously way more powerful. If somehow, any of them snapped, and stopped being loyal to humans.. they could rule the world.

I don't think that's very likely if Chambers is anything to go by. He would just execute whatever directives left to him by the GA should situation arise. Besides it would be pretty anticlimactic if isn't Kugel.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-10, 19:11
We've got multiple coming of age stories, makes more sense if you put it in a just out of high school context

Ledo the protagonist has to outgrow his school (GA), his parents (Chamber & Kugel) then make his own decisions independently. Coming from a regimented environment where everything was black and white, his struggle is with ambiguity and too many options that have no optimal solution.

Ridget is your classic iinchou-type. She had a known environment with people above and below her while being groomed for a position of power. Graduating from that environment she has to rebuild everything she has previously gained (.e.g. from school to work place). It's not something you can do just by yourself. You have to trust others and earn their respect.

Pinion is your self-confident delinquent. He uses and abuses what's around him for gain. When he acquires power he is going to misuse it because his arrogance blinds him to his mistakes. Bad decision making will compound until it's sad conclusion. Whether he will be an example of what not to follow or how to recover from such tragic mistakes remains to be seen.

Amy is your happy-go-lucky / socialite child. She gets along well with people. But even well meaning people can do harm. Careless words/gestures cost the lives of several pirates to her regret. Imposing her outlook and opinion on others did not result in converting people to her point of view. She must deal with the disparity of her usual positive outlook and reality of what she can affect. At the moment she is set aside being emo, potentially to become a victim of events outside of her control. Somehow she must weather it, would like to see how this point gets illustrated.

That's an interesting interpretation of this show, but what would the Hideauze represent in that context?

Hmmm, perhaps Chamber, Kugel and the GA represent parents and a schooling system that enforce young people to be competitive, a view that makes them see their peers as nothing more than enemies to defeat.

You must get better scores than them, you must outperform them and be on top and all that stuff.

But then Ledo realizes that they are humans too. And Amy shouts "Why fighting among ourselves? Let's be all friends!"

Oh well, I don't really know if that's what the writers are thinking :heh:

mikeomni
2013-06-10, 19:35
That's an interesting interpretation of this show, but what would the Hideauze represent in that context?

Hmmm, perhaps Chamber, Kugel and the GA represent parents and a schooling system that enforce young people to be competitive, a view that makes them see their peers as nothing more than enemies to defeat.

You must get better scores than them, you must outperform them and be on top and all that stuff.

But then Ledo realizes that they are humans too. And Amy shouts "Why fighting among ourselves? Let's be all friends!"

Oh well, I don't really know if that's what the writers are thinking :heh:

I would say the Hideauze are "gaijin" and their disconcerting ways. In a connected world there are forces that you must respect and potentially work with. They are people too, despite not following the same culture, therefore being barbaric. Or perhaps their barbarism is an evolution so far advanced to be incomprehensible. Damn America's Google and their cyborg ways! Their innovations will kill us all!

They could also be a catchall for outcasts from society that are necessary for everyone to progress.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-10, 19:37
As a very broad oversimplified representation, the Hideauze could represent the outside world, the bad guys from fairy tales, the general "other" that school, parents, and Very Special Episodes warn about. On a basic level they're just the faceless antagonists, but with the last couple of episodes they've provided the existential question for Ledo of "everything he's been told is a lie." There's also an important concept in the idea of "they're like us" (as much as squidbeings can be). We get warned away from a lot of things when we're children, then we hit a certain age and everything is suddenly okay. (Alcohol, naughty dancing, porn... okay, so I'm not making a very strong comparison here, but it's still a part of the feeling that one might have when they reach a point of questioning what they've been told.)

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-10, 19:38
I really liked Chamber's speech. In particular, I found his point about how the Hideauze had thrown away civilization (and, with it, an essential element of humanity) to be rather compelling, honestly. However, I'm not sure I buy his argument that peaceful co-existence is impossible. Still, on the whole, Chamber's speech was probably the highlight of the episode....Yeah, well, I guess I'm being consistent if I say that I found his speech (a) the highlight of the episode and (b) completely wrong and self-interested. I don't know for a fact that the Hideauze have abandoned "civilization." I don't even know for sure that the whale-squid have. But even if they have, it is not at all clear (as you say) that the two forms of humans can't co-exist --- as they do (or have up to now) on Earth.

I would say the Hideauze are "gaijin" and their disconcerting ways. In a connected world there are forces that you must respect and potentially work with. They are people too, despite not following the same culture, therefore being barbaric. Or perhaps their barbarism is an evolution so far advanced to be incomprehensible. Damn America's Google and their cyborg ways! Their innovations will kill us all! Yes! Some of the reactions to the Hideauze earlier in these threads did remind me of what many Japanese really think about gaijin.
_____

One thought: I wonder if Kugel is really there, or just his Machine Caliber?

mikeomni
2013-06-10, 19:45
As a very broad oversimplified representation, the Hideauze could represent the outside world, the bad guys from fairy tales, the general "other" that school, parents, and Very Special Episodes warn about. On a basic level they're just the faceless antagonists also, but with the last couple of episodes they've provided the existential question for Ledo of "everything he's been told is a lie," but the "they're like us" idea is important too. We get warned away from a lot of things when we're children, then we hit a certain age and everything is suddenly okay. (Alcohol, naughty dancing, porn... okay, so I'm not making a very strong comparison here, but it's still a part of the feeling that one might have when they reach a point of questioning what they've been told.)

Scratch my previous reply. I like your interpretation! Hideauze being the taboos and contradictions we must confront to "grow up" is a better angle.

Triple_R
2013-06-10, 19:56
Yeah, well, I guess I'm being consistent if I say that I found his speech (a) the highlight of the episode and (b) completely wrong and self-interested. I don't know for a fact that the Hideauze have abandoned "civilization." I don't even know for sure that the whale-squid have. But even if they have, it is not at all clear (as you say) that the two forms of humans can't co-exist --- as they do (or have up to now) on Earth.

The Space Hideauze are a largely open question, but we've seen a fair bit of the Earth Hideauze now. I think Chamber has good reason for arguing that the Hideauze has thrown away civilization.

What have they built? What is their culture? What is their form of government? Do they even have a culture or a government? On Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs), how many are operating beyond the Safety Level, or even the Physiological Level?

When Ledo massacred these beings, I saw no sign of higher thinking from them. I saw no attempt to communicate with Ledo. I saw no discernible military tactics in their counter-attacks against Ledo. I saw no defensive mechanisms built for their nest.

None of this is to say that it's Ok to kill them if they're not attacking you. But I don't know why some people here assume the absolute best about the Hideauze with little, if any, evidence to point towards.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-10, 19:58
Scratch my previous reply. I like your interpretation! Hideauze being the taboos and contradications we must confront to "grow up" is a better angle.

I had to go back and fix my grammar after re-reading it. :uhoh:

It's actually rather convenient for analysis that the Hideauze have no speaking characters and our main source of information of them is indirect... with only circumstantial evidence to fight against, I can come up with ideas that could work in a film interpretation class. ;)

And despite what they've become (a cautionary tale in itself), it does appear that at first a significant number of people did choose to become symbionts... this is where the joke about becoming IRS agents would go. (Or any other job that carries a negative connotation.)

FateAnomaly
2013-06-10, 20:53
I see a bad end coming up for Pinion.

I don't see the hideauze as humans at all. Just because they have human cells doesn't make them humans. In the first place, to be willing to undergo the evolve procedure they have already chosen to give up their humanity.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-10, 21:21
Well you do realize that according to that image you can see a squid even in the GA's symbol?

Perhaps people are trying too hard to see squids in every thing.
I'm not sure how much should I trust that.

Yes

I'm expecting a role reversal of Evolvers and Continental Union.

The human supporters of the Evolvers get abandoned and become bitter cultists.

Continental Union survivors become Gargantians thanking the Whalesquids for their contribution to their survival. The lightbug nanomachines.

Of course history is forgotten mostly. And it turns out the CU remnant are still the smart ones on Earth. Except for Pinion.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-10, 21:42
Yes

I'm expecting a role reversal of Evolvers and Continental Union.

The human supporters of the Evolvers get abandoned and become bitter cultists.

Continental Union survivors become Gargantians thanking the Whalesquids for their contribution to their survival. The lightbug nanomachines.

Of course history is forgotten mostly. And it turns out the CU remnant are still the smart ones on Earth. Except for Pinion.

I still don't understand how you can infer that from the symbols. Even if what you said was true, there isn't a point in history where the GA or their precursors would want to have a squid reference within their symbol.

Ergo I think there are reasonable doubts about all the other alleged squid symbolisms. The symbol seen near the Gargantians could be something completely unrelated to squids, and so could be the symbol of the cultists.

For example, did anyone ever suggest that the symbol on Sheik's chest is a squid?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/69/SheikZelda.png

And yet it's pretty close to that of the cultists.

MeggieMay
2013-06-10, 22:25
As to next weeks teaser, after looking again, I think it's just Red being show in the pilot suit. There are three shots of an Alliance pilot and I think they are all Red. Kugel hasn't been shown once.

Yeah, I wasn't certain what I was seeing there last night either so I wouldn't be surprised if it was just Ledo and the artwork was off character model a bit.

GreyZone
2013-06-10, 22:34
BTW, am I the only one who noticed this? Suisei no Gargantia, Valvrave and Attack on Titan... all of them like to throw German words around... has German somehow become a popular language in Japan or something like that, lately?

hawkeyesvn
2013-06-10, 23:55
BTW, am I the only one who noticed this? Suisei no Gargantia, Valvrave and Attack on Titan... all of them like to throw German words around... has German somehow become a popular language in Japan or something like that, lately?

It has always been popular with Japanese anime/games/manga. Especially if that product have anything related to mecha - German is the way to go! Just take a look at Super Robot Wars video game series and see how many mechs have German names: Huckebein, Weiss Riiter, Zweizergain, Gespent, Wildwurger, Wildschwein, Aussenseiter,...etc. It seems like Japan is in love with German when it comes to mechanic things.

rocket
2013-06-11, 00:33
Yeah, well, I guess I'm being consistent if I say that I found his speech (a) the highlight of the episode and (b) completely wrong and self-interested.

This.

Typical Gen. Everyone is tainted, even the machines, and yet we sympathize with them...



Yes! Some of the reactions to the Hideauze earlier in these threads did remind me of what many Japanese really think about gaijin.

Hideous!!!

Cosmic Eagle
2013-06-11, 01:54
I did like how Chamber's speech reinforced the value of his own existence. You're right, there is a strong element of humanity there.


he's right in so far as once the war had started, there's no end but the annihilation of the other though.

His argument before any shot was fired is basically ideological hot air and illusion though.

Jerseykid
2013-06-11, 04:37
We're running out of episodes, there won't be enough time for Ledo to fall in love with Amy!

orpheus2
2013-06-11, 04:51
he's right in so far as once the war had started, there's no end but the annihilation of the other though.

His argument before any shot was fired is basically ideological hot air and illusion though.

True. It is already too late now. Until the other is annihilated, neither will stop.

We're running out of episodes, there won't be enough time for Ledo to fall in love with Amy!

I don't romance is the point here. Maybe, they will focus the romance in the 3 BD episodes after the main series that was reported.

Traece
2013-06-11, 05:02
I don't romance is the point here. Maybe, they will focus the romance in the 3 BD episodes after the main series that was reported.

I think if there's any romance it would be implied at the very end either through an ending monologue or through a short timeskip scene. That tends to be the common choice when there's no time to establish substance for a relationship, but there's a desire to have it be solidified as an outcome.

encia
2013-06-11, 05:49
^^ I don't know what to say about the opinions of people about this GA vs Hideous anymore. ^^

I don't think it's fair for us to say that the GA are Nazi-space assholes when the hideous believe themselves to be superior to humans. Also, while the CA attacked the Evolvers first. It was the Evolvers who siezed the wormhole dive to chase after the CA who decided to flee from them so that they wouldn't deal with the hideous' bullshit in the first place.

What was the point of converting them into something THAT different in order to live in the space without the spacecraft when they need the wormhole dive to spread themselves even faster!? The hideous just got greedy and had expansionist attitude to conquer the galaxy for themselves.

But then, as the viewers, the 3rd person viewpoint. It will always be neutral, although I doubt your opinion is really objective seeing you root so much for the hideous. This conflict isn't something we can compare to Gundam SEED's Blue Cosmos vs Coordinators, you know! It's on a different magnitude!

BTW, Hideauze probably comes from hideous. That's what normal humans looks at their appearance anymore. I don't know about their social structure, culture and moral concept tough.

I don't think I can compare this to normal people living with cannibals, but when their opinion about their way of life crash in the most radical way, I don't think peaceful coexistence is possible.

Star Trek's Into Darkness and Star Trek II also touches Trek's old eugenics wars i.e. augmented (genetic enhanced) humans vs non-augmented humans. Trek's "naturals" won the war against augmented humans and forced them out from Earth sphere. Trek's Earth still has anti-augmented human laws in 24C. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Eugenics_Wars

Principalities
2013-06-11, 06:26
Hmm. If Kugel is indeed dead as some have speculated wouldn't it mean that Chamber will have the advantage over Striker in battle? Battle Potential with Pilot > Battle Potential without Pilot!

FateAnomaly
2013-06-11, 06:35
If kugel is dead , leto automatically gains command over the mech since he is the highest ranking officer around.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-11, 07:06
If kugel is dead , leto automatically gains command over the mech since he is the highest ranking officer around.

Yeah, unless Striker went rogue and developed a god complex that's what it should be. Chamber said that he defers to the highest GA authority on site, not just to his pilot or to a commander. That should be true even for Striker, even if she's a model meant for higher officers.

Triple_R
2013-06-11, 08:14
True. It is already too late now. Until the other is annihilated, neither will stop.


It's funny. People seem to assume the absolute best about the Hideauze... except in the area of warmongering, for some reason.

Again, I point to simple visual evidence (or lack thereof). We have yet to see the Hideauze (and that includes the Space Hideauze) be the aggressors in a conflict. There is no real evidence that they are actively trying to wipe out humans.

What we do know is that rather important information was kept from Ledo and his fellow soldiers. So we know that the GA is quite willing to have its soldiers operate on false pretenses. Even Ledo himself now believes that he was "brainwashed" by the GA (at least going by the subs I have for this episode).

For all we know, the Hideauze could be a peaceful species, and the GA want to wipe them out simply to grab more territory and/or resources. You know, kind of like what Pinion is doing right now. Is Pinion a metaphor for the GA, I wonder?

Winterson
2013-06-11, 08:50
Hideaze and humans will always be antagonistic to one another. Both are from extreme race, but humans always enrich civilization. Chamber is one of the crystalizations of the advancement of humankind. So no matter what, humans are ought to be superior, and those who had thrown away their humanity would not understand this concept.

So there's this cult heading to Pinion's fleet. Remember that he swaggerly boasted their claims on these relics of the past and in the area, and most likely this approaching vessel was challenged and wanted to try how strong their stronghold was. They were trying to show off their invincibility by displaying the carcasses' of those whalesquids and exposing their ultimate weapon--GA mech of captaing Kugel. Now I wonder if Ledo is to engage in a fight with this purple tin can.

hyperborealis
2013-06-11, 08:51
Gen is playing on our instinctual responses to the Hideauze's appearence: we fear them (what big teeth they have!) and love them (so cute! just like babies! ). Perhaps a logical assessment, free of such perceptual biases, will clear things up? But Caliber's dispassionate advocacy of genocide is even more unsettling. We are left in the perfect conundrum, where we don't know who or what is right, but must act.

Everyone is making really good arguments on different sides, arguments that are so good, in fact, that I think the point is the confusion among them. We really don't know who the good or bad guys are.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-11, 09:04
We really don't know who the good or bad guys are.

The ones who refuse a peaceful agreement.

If the Hideauze have become incapable of that, as Chamber suggests, then there is simply no justification to their ways. Foregoing the ability to communicate and compromise with other intelligent species is absolutely inexcusable.

If, however, the Hideauze, or the ones in charge, still have intelligence and the ability to consider concepts such as "sustainable development", "peace agreements" and such, then both factions are at fault for not even trying to settle their disputes.
Since in the current state both factions are threatening each other's existences, a peaceful agreement would be the most safe "survival strategy" for both.

Winterson
2013-06-11, 09:06
So I am having this buts and ifs. I am thinking that maybe the ensigned pilot transferred his authority of command to one those weirdos before he died and it could not be passed to Ledo. Now, it is being used for their own benefit while it continues to do its top priority of annihilating the Hideaze.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-11, 09:14
So I am having this buts and ifs. I am thinking that maybe the ensigned pilot transferred his authority of command to one those weirdos before he died and it could not be passed to Ledo. Now, it is being used for their own benefit while it continues to do its top priority of annihilating the Hideaze.

There's no such thing as an order that can't be canceled in regular military protocols.
As the highest ranked official Ledo would still have the authority to cancel any preexisting orders.

hyperborealis
2013-06-11, 10:13
The ones who refuse a peaceful agreement.

If the Hideauze have become incapable of that, as Chamber suggests, then there is simply no justification to their ways. Foregoing the ability to communicate and compromise with other intelligent species is absolutely inexcusable.

If, however, the Hideauze, or the ones in charge, still have intelligence and the ability to consider concepts such as "sustainable development", "peace agreements" and such, then both factions are at fault for not even trying to settle their disputes.
Since in the current state both factions are threatening each other's existences, a peaceful agreement would be the most safe "survival strategy" for both.

They may have both evolved to become symbiotically defined by the other's aggression. In this case war is their life. Peace would be mutual death, and victory, suicide.

They are the bad guys, since with Ledo & Kugel's arrival, they will inexorably sweep Gargantia into their endless and unendable war.

I expect Ledo to fight to keep them both out. Ledo = Hagino from Blue Drop.

Irenesharda
2013-06-11, 11:55
The ones who refuse a peaceful agreement.

If the Hideauze have become incapable of that, as Chamber suggests, then there is simply no justification to their ways. Foregoing the ability to communicate and compromise with other intelligent species is absolutely inexcusable.

If, however, the Hideauze, or the ones in charge, still have intelligence and the ability to consider concepts such as "sustainable development", "peace agreements" and such, then both factions are at fault for not even trying to settle their disputes.
Since in the current state both factions are threatening each other's existences, a peaceful agreement would be the most safe "survival strategy" for both.

It actually kind of reminds me of the difference between the aliens in ID4 vs. something like the Xenomorphs of Aliens.

The ID4 aliens have the capacity to communicate and are quite sentient and sapient, however even with peace being offered to them, they want no part of it and simply want to exterminate humans for their own gain.

And then there's the Xenomorphs who do seem to have some level of intelligence but are more animalistic and run mostly on instincts. They have no way to understand or communicate with humans and will kill any human (unless they are a host) they come across.

The Hideauze could be either case; in one case, peace could be potentially possible, and in the other it could never be possible. With one side the destruction of the entire Hideauze race is a possibility if the Hideauze don't care to have peace at all. However, if it's the second option, then taking out the entire race becomes a necessity.

Winterson
2013-06-11, 11:56
There's no such thing as an order that can't be canceled in regular military protocols.
As the highest ranked official Ledo would still have the authority to cancel any preexisting orders.

What do we know?! Even Chamber said that the link between him and the GA is lost. It could also be a lost command if you consider it. This is just a speculation though, As I was saying you can still transfer the authority of command like what Ledo did to Pinion before, but you're right. It would be ridiculus if such protocols were to be supressed with these specs. Anyhow, killing Hideaze is every soldiers ' and mech's top priority and possibly first command.

Cadallin
2013-06-11, 12:27
Interesting episode.

Maybe the Colonel Kugel isn't even there. Maybe his AI has taken over. They have all the intelligence of humans and they're obviously way more powerful. If somehow, any of them snapped, and stopped being loyal to humans.. they could rule the world.

Alright this is way out there in epileptic trees land, but, how do we know that isn't precisely what's happened to the Galactic Alliance as a whole?

Who runs the galactic alliance? What if its just AIs in some Asimov style Laws of Robotics situation? Their AIs can think for themselves and in a highly self serving fashion.

"You, a machine, are telling me, a human, what to do?"

Indeed. Chamber decided to do it, what if (at any point in the implied previous thousands of years), the AIs of the machine calibres decided it was necessary to protect humanity?

LostSome
2013-06-11, 15:52
I think the Ledo`s angst over the human squids was ok until Chamber`s speech and the arrival of the cult`s fleet...
I think I would have like it better if Ledo and Chamber had a longer conversation after Chamber gave its logic rather than watching Ledo having his identity crisis for that long.

Well, well... Pinion is becoming quite the little "revolutionnaire".
Our rebellious engineer is breaking all the old taboos, conventions and mindsets of Gargantia with a vengance.This is a good kick in the rusty way of life of the Gargantians and by the look of it many are ready to give those changes a chance. I agree, a place where you don`t have to fear pirates and squids is a dream worth chasing.
Surprisingly, Pinion has enough charisma and a way with words to motivate those around him and watching Flange losing his autority because it was hilarious.:heh:

Jan-Poo
2013-06-11, 18:07
"You, a machine, are telling me, a human, what to do?"

Indeed. Chamber decided to do it, what if (at any point in the implied previous thousands of years), the AIs of the machine calibres decided it was necessary to protect humanity?

However giving guidance to Ledo has always been one of Chamber's main functions.
As long as he doesn't cross the border between suggestion and command there is nothing to be surprised about.

Sure Chamber told Ledo what he should do according to his reasoning, but he did the same in the past, for example when he suggested to subdue the Gargantians.

There is still no evidence that Chamber is defying or will defy Ledo's orders.

Key Board
2013-06-11, 18:11
It seems to me that the present hideauze is so far mutated from humanity that they have lost the ability to communicate with humans

It would be like a human talking to a an Dolphin or a Cuttlefish. (..which are pretty darn smart, I might add)

no communication -> no negotiation -> continued conflict

chaos_animagic
2013-06-11, 18:58
It seems to me that the present hideauze is so far mutated from humanity that they have lost the ability to communicate with humans

It would be like a human talking to a an Dolphin or a Cuttlefish. (..which are pretty darn smart, I might add)

no communication -> no negotiation -> continued conflict

Tho... they DO have some way to communicate with some animals.

I believe there are irl devices and researches that allowed certain translation of Dogs and Dolphin's voice. And the use of those as samples to send it back at Dogs and Dolphins.
(well... based on popular Dog Training, Dogs can understand basic Human language)

Also goes back to my saying of Chamber... if he have the technology to instantly translate "lost human language" into their current language, he can too learn and do so with other species language. It is just they don't want to.

takai
2013-06-11, 20:10
Whew, this show delivers one surprise after another. But these last few episodes have felt so different than the first 7 or so episodes. Looking forward to more.

FateAnomaly
2013-06-11, 23:07
At this point the hideauze would no longer accept a peace treaty even if they used to be peaceful. The hideauze are more animalistic now and after being consistently being attacked by humans for so long, their first instinct will be to attack humans on sight. It seems that combat wise they have the upper hand. They probably could not create worm holes though so defensively human have an advantage.

aohige
2013-06-12, 00:29
I really liked how Chaimber laid down the much needed logic smack down.
These morons (and by that I mean pretty much the entire cast lol) very much needed it. :heh:

Principalities
2013-06-12, 10:36
Why are people calling Pinion a douchebag? He is no saint but why are people condemning him for not being so selfless? I think the odd thing about Pinion is that he is acting like a normal person as per our own modern definition and NOT like the typical Gargantian.

Cloudedmind
2013-06-12, 11:38
Why are people calling Pinion a douchebag? He is no saint but why are people condemning him for not being so selfless? I think the odd thing about Pinion is that he is acting like a normal person as per our own modern definition and NOT like the typical Gargantian.

He basically went advertising all the loot they found, which was basically being ASKED to be attacked by pirates. That's beyond stupid, whether you think you can win or not.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-12, 11:48
Yeah, people are selfish all the time, but people that have no shame in showing their selfishness, boast their achievements and arrogantly tell people to steer clear or they'll get a beating?

Well if that ain't a douchebag, what else is?

Triple_R
2013-06-12, 16:34
Why are people calling Pinion a douchebag? He is no saint but why are people condemning him for not being so selfless? I think the odd thing about Pinion is that he is acting like a normal person as per our own modern definition and NOT like the typical Gargantian.

No, I think normal would be "I'll keep half of this all to myself, and I'll share the other half with other fleets... though I will expect some profit or useful goods for it, of course!"

But Pinion just wants to hoard it all, and share none of it. I honestly think that's unusually selfish, beyond what your normal person would be.

I don't think that Pinion is an entirely bad guy - I think at some level, he cares at least a little bit about Ledo - But his greed truly is out of control. If Pinion becomes a tragic figure, his greed will be the classic "fatal flaw" that does him in.

mikeomni
2013-06-12, 19:30
No, I think normal would be "I'll keep half of this all to myself, and I'll share the other half with other fleets... though I will expect some profit or useful goods for it, of course!"

But Pinion just wants to hoard it all, and share none of it. I honestly think that's unusually selfish, beyond what your normal person would be.

I don't think that Pinion is an entirely bad guy - I think at some level, he cares at least a little bit about Ledo - But his greed truly is out of control. If Pinion becomes a tragic figure, his greed will be the classic "fatal flaw" that does him in.

If I was a harsh writer, I'd let innocents suffer the consequences of Pinion's poor decisions then have him live through it. That would best illustrate how injustice happens in the real world. Good men (Flange?) fail to counter bad choices then society suffers. Whether its Pinion hoarding technology and riding high ... or an auditor turning a blind eye to siphoning of public funds ... the negatives fall someplace but not necessarily direct to those who cause it ... thus multiplying the tragedy.

Guido
2013-06-12, 20:42
From the end of the episode until this show to end, things are looking bleak and uncertain for Ledo and even to those whose existence have had an impact upon them.

What I can make most of Chambers' statements to Ledo is that human beings actually are in need to overcome themselves and to demand more of their own selves. War is not about making friends but fighting in any context whether for resources, for politics, for religion, etc. in order to exert that any ways, ideas, standards, and knowledge hold by those who win eventually decide the course of upcoming times to follow. That's my gist.


What I understood is that Hideauze and Human separated at a point and chose to walk different paths away from each other to ensure their species's respective survival on their own terms.

Collision and fighting between the two species was an inevitable outcome.

Due to their frail condition in space, humans had no other choice but relying on the quest to gain or improve their knowledge in order to develop more complex civilizations in order to survive.

For Hideauze to gain more knowledge became no longer important once getting used to their new bodies and forms, realizing their newfound strength and enhanced capabilities that made them able to survive in the vacuum of space on their own.
They're more than satisfied to be able to live a simple lifecycle within small communities.

aohige
2013-06-12, 22:33
Hmm, I think it's a lot simpler "they ain't no humans no more bro".

I mean, saying those space-squids are "BUT THEY ARE HUMANS I CAN'T FIGHT THEM" is like saying you can't kill zombies because they used to be human. LOL
Of course, I understand Ledo's problem isn't really the fact they are humans (he had no problem evaporating pirates) but the fact his life was a lie.

Solace
2013-06-13, 00:40
Hmm, I think it's a lot simpler "they ain't no humans no more bro".

I mean, saying those space-squids are "BUT THEY ARE HUMANS I CAN'T FIGHT THEM" is like saying you can't kill zombies because they used to be human. LOL
Of course, I understand Ledo's problem isn't really the fact they are humans (he had no problem evaporating pirates) but the fact his life was a lie.

But some people would have a problem killing a zombie because it used to be human, or it looks human. At least at first, anyway. Telling yourself "it's not human" or "it's the enemy" (implying "not like us"), is just how you rationalize killing it.

I recall a chapter of the manga Franken Fran, where a zombie outbreak broke out and the uninfected reacted as you'd expect: torches and pitchforks. But the infected weren't zombies at all. The virus impaired their nervous system, so it made them unable to talk, or see very well, or move properly. By appearances, they were just "dumb violent monsters", but in reality the minds were perfectly functional human mentally but unable to control the body. The villagers, in their fear, never tried to understand that, and simply treated them as monsters to be destroyed.

Now I'm not saying that the Hideauz are like that. But appearances can be deceiving, is my point. There is something more to them than meets the eye, otherwise the moral conflict of the story would have no meaningful impact in the end. The question is what does Ledo do with this knowledge? Nothing? Something? If the answer is "yeah, they were human, but not anymore, so kill them all", that would be a tragic conclusion to arrive at.

Winterson
2013-06-13, 01:45
Hideazeu are aliens to humans. They originated from human race but had fulfilled real evolution.

Darth Fanta
2013-06-13, 04:06
But some people would have a problem killing a zombie because it used to be human, or it looks human. At least at first, anyway. Telling yourself "it's not human" or "it's the enemy" (implying "not like us"), is just how you rationalize killing it.

I recall a chapter of the manga Franken Fran, where a zombie outbreak broke out and the uninfected reacted as you'd expect: torches and pitchforks. But the infected weren't zombies at all. The virus impaired their nervous system, so it made them unable to talk, or see very well, or move properly. By appearances, they were just "dumb violent monsters", but in reality the minds were perfectly functional human mentally but unable to control the body. The villagers, in their fear, never tried to understand that, and simply treated them as monsters to be destroyed.
Now I'm not saying that the Hideauz are like that. But appearances can be deceiving, is my point. There is something more to them than meets the eye, otherwise the moral conflict of the story would have no meaningful impact in the end. The question is what does Ledo do with this knowledge? Nothing? Something? If the answer is "yeah, they were human, but not anymore, so kill them all", that would be a tragic conclusion to arrive at.

A moderator is spoiling another manga without spoilers? I'm in shock!:twitch: Jokes aside, from the action of the people of Gargantia in episode 9, it seems the Hideauze are easily provoked, even the ones on earth--they could attack the fleet if they knew humans were there apparently. They really pose a real danger to humanity.

That aside, since their intelligence has regressed, they are little more than animals. Their relationship with humans would be similar to the one between humans with apes. Humans shouldn't attack them without cause, but if there is one, like rediscovering technology that could benefit the race, they should.

Besides that, the reaction of the Gargantians back in the main fleet revulsed me. They had no problem with hunting animals for food. Yet, when other people are killing animals they regard as bad omen, they condemned the act and treat it as though it was pure stupidity--even though the race could have been benefited from the action. The Gargantians were hypocrites. What's even more stupid was that they were doing this without even knowing the squids' ancestors were human.

Pinion's a scumbag. I cannot see why the other captains even obeys him.I haven't seen someone as foolish as him in quite a while. As if you would try and inform people what kind of treasure you have gotten. He's asking to be attacked. I can see why he don't want to share lost technology with others. At least very least though, he should have kept it a secret amongst his own group. Other than that, as if you would let pirates, PIRATES join your 'fleet'. It was as if criminals could be trusted. They would have stabbed his back once an opportunity reveals itself and run of with the lost technology.

aohige
2013-06-13, 07:22
But some people would have a problem killing a zombie because it used to be human, or it looks human. At least at first, anyway. Telling yourself "it's not human" or "it's the enemy" (implying "not like us"), is just how you rationalize killing it.

I recall a chapter of the manga Franken Fran, where a zombie outbreak broke out and the uninfected reacted as you'd expect: torches and pitchforks. But the infected weren't zombies at all. The virus impaired their nervous system, so it made them unable to talk, or see very well, or move properly. By appearances, they were just "dumb violent monsters", but in reality the minds were perfectly functional human mentally but unable to control the body. The villagers, in their fear, never tried to understand that, and simply treated them as monsters to be destroyed.

Now I'm not saying that the Hideauz are like that. But appearances can be deceiving, is my point. There is something more to them than meets the eye, otherwise the moral conflict of the story would have no meaningful impact in the end. The question is what does Ledo do with this knowledge? Nothing? Something? If the answer is "yeah, they were human, but not anymore, so kill them all", that would be a tragic conclusion to arrive at.

Ehh. It depends on the situation. If the apparent zombie outbreak was causing the zombies to roam around, attacking, killing, and eating the people, then it's fully justified to treat them as enemies. And likewise, the Hideauze are an actual enemy threat locked in a conflict for survival with humanity in space. They've become something entirely different from humans, no communication, just survival of the fittest.

If someone keeps going "oh noes poor misunderstood creatures" as the zombies swarm the mall munching on his fellow people, then sorry man, he fully deserve to be eaten. :heh:

I'm with Chamber on this issue.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-13, 07:54
Now I'm not saying that the Hideauz are like that. But appearances can be deceiving, is my point. There is something more to them than meets the eye, otherwise the moral conflict of the story would have no meaningful impact in the end. The question is what does Ledo do with this knowledge? Nothing? Something?

Well that's in fact one of the strangest point of this series that leaves me a bit confused and skeptical.

It think that it's quite clear that while the Hideauze and the whalesquids are similar they are however still different for many reasons. Chamber found a strong genetic similarity but for all we know there could be the same genetic disparity that exists between humans and gorillas.

In the first place why would some Evolvers be left behind? What if the whalesquids are descendents of "failed" experiments? That would make more sense to me.

At any rate thinking that you can judge the Hideauze by their terrestrial counterparts is a very big assumption. Of course there is enough evidence to conclude that the whalesquids abandoned civilization entirely. Perhaps they still retain some degree of intelligence, but the facts speak clearly, they aren't modifying nor tending their environment in the least.
However how can Chamber be so sure that the same is true for the Hideauze? He knows practically nothing about them. We can tell because he himself stated that the alliance has no data about "Hideauze larvae", and that discovering that was "valuable information". So in other words he doesn't know anything about how is the Hideauze life and society inside one of their nests.

The reason we are now taking for almost certain that the Hideauze have abandoned civilization and intellect, is because Chamber said so in a very important speech, and it makes us think that, regardless of the rationality of such conclusions, it must be true because that sounds like a direct message from the authors.

However logically it shouldn't be. In the first place those flower things do not look anything like the regular squid Hideauze. So if there are different races, there might be some that still retain intelligence.
It would be really very hard to explain how could the Hideauze evolve so much just through natural selection. There is simply no comparison between technology and evolution when it comes to rate of improvement over time. To be on par with that the Hideauze should be able to breed faster than bacteria and viruses, and that's absolutely unrealistic.

It would only make sense if the Hideauze are still evolving through artificial evolution, just like they did in the first place. But there can't be artificial evolution without intelligence. Bio-engineering might be different from mechanic and electronic but it's still a technology. And if bio-engineering is still applied in the Hideauze society then Chamber's logic falls apart.
In that case the "blossom sail" would be a crystallization of the Hideauze's civilization as much as machine calibers and dimenstriums are a crystallization of the GA's civilization.


So right now I don't quite know what to think. It really seems that the show is meant to make us think about these two different "survival strategies" as Chamber explained them. So perhaps Chamber is right, but I don't think that's very credible in realistic terms.
Or maybe that's just another trick of the authors and it will then be revealed that the Hideauze can still talk and comprehend human language (not quite believing that right now), but then I'd still find strange that the rational Chamber made such hasty conclusions with so little evidence.

cf18
2013-06-13, 10:41
Alright this is way out there in epileptic trees land, but, how do we know that isn't precisely what's happened to the Galactic Alliance as a whole?

Who runs the galactic alliance? What if its just AIs in some Asimov style Laws of Robotics situation? Their AIs can think for themselves and in a highly self serving fashion.

"You, a machine, are telling me, a human, what to do?"

Indeed. Chamber decided to do it, what if (at any point in the implied previous thousands of years), the AIs of the machine calibres decided it was necessary to protect humanity?

Yes it is quite possible that some super A.I. is running the Alliance, after having the same conclusion that Chamber had. One thing stands out for me after Chamber's speech is that this A.I. is pretty damn smart, so why did it still need a pilot to fight? Do the Alliance think human must fight on the front line against Hideauze to prove that they are equal, for this "human dignity" thing? Or to avoid the A.I. to conclude that they are the next evolution or successor of humanity, should they win the war without human?

Darth Fanta
2013-06-13, 18:46
Yes it is quite possible that some super A.I. is running the Alliance, after having the same conclusion that Chamber had. One thing stands out for me after Chamber's speech is that this A.I. is pretty damn smart, so why did it still need a pilot to fight? Do the Alliance think human must fight on the front line against Hideauze to prove that they are equal, for this "human dignity" thing? Or to avoid the A.I. to conclude that they are the next evolution or successor of humanity, should they win the war without human?

I suspect it might have something to do with not enough resources for everyone, and extra humans are sent to the front to die or return as a man/woman 'worthy' of reproducing the next generation.

SagaraSouske
2013-06-13, 19:47
Space faring Hideauze may well be imprinted with evolutionary drive to wipe out humanity due to the arisen conflict between the evolvers vs CU. From the records that Ledo saw, they were an active participant in the war even if they were initially defending themselves. But by the end, they choose to hijack CU's wormhole portal to spread themselves through out the galaxy. If evolvers already are capable of space travel themselves and continues evolution to adapt to space, to simply escape earth should not require actively attack or sabotage CU's effort to escape earth. After all, they chose to evolve into space squids to live and travel interstellar space. The wording seems to imply that the leadership of the evolvers essentially wanted a galaxy dominated by evolvers and they were willing to strand the CU faction to a dying earth to do so, while CU is basically doing the same. It's a war between two factions of humanity wanting their own branch becoming the dominant life form that flourishes in space.

The whale squids are basically original attempts at evolving humans before adapting to space. It isn't really a failed experiment but rather a remnant of initial prototypes of evolvers. There is likely a parallel between their evolution compare to their space faring brethren. Individuality and civilization is devolved as a cost of species evolution into improved biological abilities each whale squid possesses. However, sea being a more limited environment and few conflicts during their existence have caused a much slower evolution compare to the space Hideauze. The initial evolvers were hybrid human/squids but the whale squids are no longer human at all despite appearing have human fetus like features at their initial birth cycle. One can argue the space Hideauze have evolved in the same manner but much more rapidly and long ago have ceased to be human but rather a completely different space faring life form with initially programmed evolution drive set by the evolvers.