PDA

View Full Version : Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll


monir
2013-06-14, 23:43
Welcome to the discussion thread for Suisei no Gargantia, Episode 11.

Thread Guidelines
Raw requests and offers are not permitted anywhere on this forum.
Spoilers or hints about future events must not be posted in this thread.
If you need to reference something that would spoil a future event, reply directly with a private message (http://forums.animesuki.com/faq.php?faq=vb_board_usage#faq_vb_pm_explain), or seek out a more appropriate thread.
Discuss your expectations of the episode if it has not aired yet.
Be polite to your fellow forum members.
Please try to keep the discussion on-topic.
Do not post multiple times in a row. Please edit your existing post if you wish to add additional thoughts.

Episode Thread Spoiler Policy

Any comment that discloses events, characters, plot or other information before it is revealed in the anime is expressly forbidden whether or not it is behind spoiler tags.
Spoiler tags should still be used where appropriate.
Please consult the AnimeSuki Spoiler Policy (http://forums.animesuki.com/faq.php?faq=animesuki_faq#faq_spoilerpolicy) for more information.
Adding a Spoiler tag:

spoiler.gif
Just highlight your spoiler and click the button found
on the "Quick Reply" and "Reply to Thread" forms.
Make sure that you include a useful title!
Please use the Report button if you see any inappropriate spoilers:

report.gif
Click the button found to the left of the post, just under the poster's avatar.
Using the Report button is anonymous and helps the Moderators
locate and deal with problems quickly.
Posting inappropriate spoilers may result in a ban.
Note: Reporting a post does not mean the poster will be banned instantly.
The Moderators will use bans if warnings are repeatedly ignored.

MisaoFan
2013-06-16, 08:32
I missed a bit of the stream, but to be honest, I'm just as empty as the last few episodes. In spite of this, I find out that Kugel is alive, albeit his appearance slightly changed and his live conversation with Ledo was nice. Rackage is finally making her own comeback (her pose after releasing from her Yunboro is fluidly awesome), too bad the sect are threatening Pinion and Flange. It is not until the end that the moment Ledo pilots Chamber, he finds out that Amy is going on a trip to find him. Do they finally re-encounter together, or just to find out that one of them gets killed off? The timeslot also gets delayed two hours earlier next week, so of course I'll be ready for it!

bastek66
2013-06-16, 08:43
Queen had nicely animated entré
http://folderman.exp.jp/s/fn-4223.gif

Stufu
2013-06-16, 09:23
Amy please be safe!!!

Principalities
2013-06-16, 09:23
Something is not right. The Colonel appearing as a hologram?

konart
2013-06-16, 10:51
I missed a bit of the stream, but to be honest, I'm just as empty as the last few episodes. In spite of this, I find out that Kugel is alive, albeit his appearance slightly changed and his live conversation with Ledo was nice. Rackage is finally making her own comeback (her pose after releasing from her Yunboro is fluidly awesome), too bad the sect are threatening Pinion and Flange. It is not until the end that the moment Ledo pilots Chamber, he finds out that Amy is going on a trip to find him. Do they finally re-encounter together, or just to find out that one of them gets killed off? The timeslot also gets delayed two hours earlier next week, so of course I'll be ready for it!


Amy is going on a trip to find him?
I think it was just a preview of Gargantia, as an objective of their attack. Amy was just flying over it.

mikeomni
2013-06-16, 11:25
Something is not right. The Colonel appearing as a hologram?

It's either a sign of his paranoia or the AI is falsifying his image. I would question how he would be able to get enough food in the MC. Suspicious ...

Principalities
2013-06-16, 11:48
It's either a sign of his paranoia or the AI is falsifying his image. I would question how he would be able to get enough food in the MC. Suspicious ...

Indeed. Shouldn't he be anxious to at least greet his subordinate in person?

Moeterum
2013-06-16, 11:49
NO!!

Not the Pirate Queen! NOT the Pirate Queen!

Why is she back? WHY?! I just hate her so much.

EroKing
2013-06-16, 13:08
Something is not right. The Colonel appearing as a hologram?

It's either a sign of his paranoia or the AI is falsifying his image. I would question how he would be able to get enough food in the MC. Suspicious ...
Yea, the possibility is high that he is already dead and the AI grew too smart and took over.
Anyways looks like it's going to be two tin cans fighting it out, no way Ledo is going to any harm come to Amy and her crew.

Entravity
2013-06-16, 13:08
So Rakkage is back as some have said.

I think Chamber is right about Kugel staying in his cockpit, but who really knows? It'll be really interesting to see how Ledo reacts to all of this though.

Funkatron
2013-06-16, 13:10
Crap: Ledo's commander wants to push the philosophies of the GA on the humans on Earth and apparently, the GA quite literally has a different definition of 'happiness' than the fleets do. This won't end well...

Edit: and I finished the episode: Crap x2. Kugel has plans of bringing 'awareness' to Gargantia. Won't. End. Well.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-16, 13:19
Lukkage is obviously scheming something, but I had briefly considered if she was actually the one running everything... that turned out to be improbable, so I'm back to waiting to see what her scheme turns out to be. Presumably Kugel was smart enough to not tell everyone that he can't go outside. (Assuming he's alive in there.)

The Heart of Darkness turn was predictable. It's interesting that the regular folk that aren't getting as much food seem a lot less droneish than the robed fellows... with the exception of the female officer-type.

Confirmation from Kugel that "We knew about the Hideauze the whole time, but you were better off not knowing." Ledo's nonreaction was peculiar, considering how he spent the previous episode in a not-entirely-resolved funk.

I see Flange and Pinion having a fight fairly soon, the question being whether Pinion has a "What have I done" moment or not.

Helius
2013-06-16, 13:20
Yea, the possibility is high that he is already dead and the AI grew too smart and took over.
Anyways looks like it's going to be two tin cans fighting it out, no way Ledo is going to any harm come to Amy and her crew.

Well apparently he's contracted a disease, that's why he can't get out of the cockpit. But Chamber deduced that Kugel chose to stay behind the veil in order to induce fear and authority over the fleet.

Interesting that Rackage seemed a bit mellow. I wonder what she's got up her sleeve....

RainbowMagnet
2013-06-16, 13:21
Queen had nicely animated entré
http://folderman.exp.jp/s/fn-4223.gif

Too bad the rest of the episode looked like total shit.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-16, 13:31
Too bad the rest of the episode looked like total shit.

Pinion had some moments of disconcerting off-modelness, but Lukkage's mouth also seemed to be moving independently of the rest of her face in a couple of scenes.

ookamigirl
2013-06-16, 13:45
Ledo - Commander reunion.
Pinion really is an idiot sometimes.
Looks like Commander got himself a nice cult.
Things are about to change for the worse.
The next two episodes should be very interesting.

Funkatron
2013-06-16, 13:51
Gah, Ledo is somewhat regressing. After the mind screw of the Hideauze, he's falling back on the closest stable thing in his mind: command. What happens in the next two episodes depends on him: will he blindly stay with Kugel despite his doubts or will he break away and forge his own path with what he's learned? Despite the missteps of this series, the next two eps will be interesting indeed

mikeomni
2013-06-16, 13:52
Kugel has a "virus" huh? Anyone else feel the Big Brother when Pinion was being subjected to testing like a monkey? Somehow, Ledo was too eager to fall back on following someone else's command when he showed so much initiative in the first episode.

Funkatron
2013-06-16, 13:54
Kugel has a "virus" huh? Anyone else feel the Big Brother when Pinion was being subjected to testing like a monkey? Somehow, Ledo was too eager to fall back on following someone else's command when he showed so much initiative in the first episode.

He's eager because its a stability he's known before. It won't last, at least I don't think he will.

andyjay729
2013-06-16, 13:58
Why oh why is there only one season of this? Things are heating up in an interesting and scary way, but with all the buildup, I don't know if any ending, whether happy or sad, could possibly be satisfactory. They really shouldn't have dithered around so much during the show's midpoint.

And once again, Lukkage proves that in anime, you can't assume someone's dead until you see the body. (When she first crawled out of the lobster, did anyone else at first think that was just her limp body falling out?)

andyjay729
2013-06-16, 14:00
He's eager because its a stability he's known before. It won't last, at least I don't think he will.

Or perhaps he's afraid of being senmetsu-ed by Striker. And yes, I would agree his psyche is still badly damaged.

LystAP
2013-06-16, 14:04
Gah, Ledo is somewhat regressing. After the mind screw of the Hideauze, he's falling back on the closest stable thing in his mind: command. What happens in the next two episodes depends on him: will he blindly stay with Kugel despite his doubts or will he break away and forge his own path with what he's learned? Despite the missteps of this series, the next two eps will be interesting indeed

I believe the disconnect exemplifies what Ledo's experiences among the Gargantians have done for his mental state, in contrast to the logical yet aloof path chosen by his superior. Kugel never left his cockpit, while Ledo did; Kugel lived among his fellows as a god-figure, while Ledo lived among the Gargantians as slightly eccentric yet likable person.

Locked up in Striker, Kugel never changed from what he was, while Ledo began to value humanity as an individual to some extent, thus that was perhaps why he was so distraught initially by discovering the Hidueaze were humans.

It still does not change the fact that he has been conditioned to follow orders since the day he was born; I do not see him falling so easily in line with Kugel as something weird, it is what he has been doing for a long while, and up until a few months ago, what he believed his life will always be like. We will see whether a few months or so of living as a "individual" can challenge years of military conditioning.

Mangaka-chan
2013-06-16, 14:07
This episode was pretty ominous with the cult Krugel built and the new social order he installed. The seated people (?) wrapped in white cloth and tied with ropes that Pinion passed by worries me, because 1) that looks insidious and 2) the people around them were all smiling in an eerie way.

LystAP
2013-06-16, 14:10
This episode was pretty ominous with the cult Krugel built and the new social order he installed. The seated people (?) wrapped in white cloth and tied with ropes that Pinion passed by worries me, because 1) that looks insidious and 2) the people around them were all smiling in an eerie way.

Perhaps they were people on their way to the incinerator, like what happened to poor Ledo's brother? ;)

Funkatron
2013-06-16, 14:13
I believe the disconnect exemplifies what Ledo's experiences among the Gargantians have done for his mental state, in contrast to the logical yet aloof path chosen by his superior. Kugel never left his cockpit, while Ledo did; Kugel lived among his fellows as a god-figure, while Ledo lived among the Gargantians as slightly eccentric yet likable person.

Locked up in Striker, Kugel never changed from what he was, while Ledo began to value humanity as an individual to some extent, thus that was perhaps why he was so distraught initially by discovering the Hidueaze were humans.

It still does not change the fact that he has been conditioned to follow orders since the day he was born; I do not see him falling so easily in line with Kugel as something weird, it is what he has been doing for a long while, and up until a few months ago, what he believed his life will always be like. We will see whether a few months or so of living as a "individual" can challenge years of military conditioning.

Yeah, I don't think he'll stay under Kugel's command: I agree that he's changed from staying with the Gargaintian fleet, definitely more than he realizes. Makes me wonder: if he defects from Kugel, will Chamber follow suit or defer to the chain of command?

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-16, 14:15
Perhaps they were people on their way to the incinerator, like what happened to poor Ledo's brother? ;)

You know what never looks good next to guys wrapped in cloth? Levers with big red buttons on them.

http://i.imgur.com/USeBjQVl.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/USeBjQV.jpg)

On the other hand, they look like they're on a platform with wheels, so maybe that's just a steering controller instead of the thing that flips the chairs over and drops them into the flaming pit of flamingness.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-16, 14:16
Is it even Kugel? Chamber managed to come its own conclusion severed from the Alliance.

To the point Ledo is bewildered a machine is telling him to get out of his depression.

Who is to say Striker isn't playing a Wizard of Oz on both of them and everybody else?

Jan-Poo
2013-06-16, 14:19
Interesting episode. Pinion's reign of terror really was short lived as it was to be expected. At least he is accepting the fact without making a fuss thus recovering a bit from the past episode's descent in total douchebag territory.

Now there's really something wrong. Kugel not showing up in person is extremely suspicious. The endemic disease seemed like a bad conceived lie and Chamber apparently doesn't think of that as something plausible considering he conjectures other more plausible hypothesis for that.
When he asked more info about the endemic disease directly to Striker I thought he was already sniffing something fishy, but since he ran a check up on Ledo I guess it's entirely possible that he was simply concerned about his pilot's health.

Anyway the fact that Striker spoke to Pinion directly was also pretty suspicious (who would have thought that Pinion was actually talented?), and equally suspicious is the whole theory that "now that we have two machine calibers we can conquer the world". Why? Striker should have been more than powerful enough to subdue Gargantia, why does she need to send Ledo?

If we pair that with Striker's desire to get Pinion on her side as quick as possible, I guess it's likely that Striker isn't functioning properly. That might be because she no longer has enough energy or some kind of internal damage.

Anyway it's either Kugel who went full "heart of darkness" or Striker who went rogue and developed a goddess complex.

Crap: Ledo's commander wants to push the philosophies of the GA on the humans on Earth and apparently

This seems to be even worse than that. The GA just seemed a very militaristic autocratic society, but what we have here is a collectivist theocracy!
Worshiping a machine caliber as a god was definitely not part of the GA's agenda.

Anyway Rackage came back as I suspected, and I really doubt she's fine with the current state of affairs. Besides I've noticed she doesn't have any ritualistic painting on her forehead.
Why are they even trusting her?

Anyway the battle between Striker and Chamber is inevitable at this point, Ledo can't possibly attack the Gargantians after all he's been through. Perhaps he will fire some warning shots, but ultimately he will disobey the order to kill them once they will refuse to "cooperate".

LystAP
2013-06-16, 14:20
Is it even Kugel? Chamber managed to come its own conclusion severed from the Alliance.

To the point Ledo is bewildered a machine is telling him to get out of his depression.

Who is to say Striker isn't playing a Wizard of Oz on both of them and everybody else?

Well, logically, the society that developed on the cultist fleet is not that different from what the Galactic Alliance does normally (after all, science and religion aren't as different as you'll think; science uses logic thus people sometimes follow blindly, but occasionally that logic can turn up to be flawed or drawn from incomplete premises). At this point, there is some reason to believe it is Kugel, whom is sticking with the old "traditions", in contrast to Ledo who developed after interactions with the Gargantians.

It is my belief, that had Ledo landed and made contact with Kugel from the beginning, he would not have even doubted the actions Kugel is taking now.

Funkatron
2013-06-16, 14:28
I wouldn't be surprised if the "disease" was a fabrication of Striker, not Kugel. He's probably trapped in there by her, thinking he is sick but in actuality he's in okay to perfect health.

I also wonder if the religious aspect is Kugel/Striker's doing or is the society just overreacting to his power?

Casshern
2013-06-16, 14:47
I'm not sure what kind of "awareness" they are supposed to bring to Gargantia when Ledo tells Kugel about his experiences there. The fleet already knows that Ledo is just a child-soldier and Chamber is a machine.

GreyZone
2013-06-16, 14:48
I also think that Striker has its part in the scheme. Something feels wrong about this "disease". How could he get a virus like that? Only 4 possibilities:

1. He got the virus before the battle in space against the Hideauze
2. He had for some reason during the space battle a PHYSICAL contact with a Hideauze (unlikely)
3. The warmhole somehow caused this
4. The virus just formed in his body.

But all these possiblities... I don't know... they seem strange... also that scene where Chamber asked for "information" regarding the disease screamed "Chekov's gun" to me. I am quite sure that it is NOT a red herring.

DuelGundam2099
2013-06-16, 14:55
Well that episode was.... Lackluster compared to last time. I don't know, it just felt like there could have been more to it, but at least Lukkage/Rakkage/what's the official spelling? and the Surfing Lobster are back. Also an odd thing to comment on, but he opening scene probably had the most subtle panty shot in anime history. No idea why that came across my mind.

LoweGear
2013-06-16, 14:58
(after all, science and religion aren't as different as you'll think; science uses logic thus people sometimes follow blindly, but occasionally that logic can turn up to be flawed or drawn from incomplete premises).

I would just like to point out that this is completely and flat out wrong. Science is completely different from religion based on the fact that it tests for repetition and proof, and will change to accommodate new solid information. If the hypothesis does not come to a proper conclusion or turns out to be false, then science will find another explanation till the conclusion matches the observations. Thus for science, 1 + 1 will equal 2 unless proven otherwise by a test that shows 1 + 1 will sometimes equal 3, at which point tests will be conducted until they find the reason why such things occur, and then amend to say "1 + 1 = 2 unless X condition is met, and thus 1 + 1 = 3."

Religion on the other hand is based upon faith, the unshakeable belief in the correctness of something despite lack of tangible proof. Thus, if the religion says that 1 + 1 = 4, then that is what people will believe, even if tangible tests show that 1 + 1 = 2.

Scientists value logic and skepticism because it allows them to not leap to conclusions that may turn out to be false. They only follow what information they have until new developments either amend or disprove their earlier data, at which point changes will be made so that their conclusions match what they see. Religion is immutable, and relies on a constant that cannot be proven or disproven, only believed, no matter if there is no proof for it.

Haak
2013-06-16, 14:58
God this is really scary now. The show is really at the cross roads at the moment and unlike other anime where the path is usually obvious, I can really see this going either way. Total despair, or total awesomeness: Which is it going to be?

Chamber and Lukkage vs Striker. Come on, make it happen!

Jerseykid
2013-06-16, 16:00
I want the happy ending where Ledo gets with Amy and Stryker gets with Chamber

Kanon
2013-06-16, 16:10
I didn't expect Lukkage to come back, and certainly not here. Seems like she's plotting to escape from Kugel's grasp. She's obviously not buying his bullshit.

The heart of darkness development was very predictable and therefore a bit disappointing, but as was already mentioned, it's highly plausible Kugel is already dead and Striker is running the show, which would make the situation a bit more interesting. If that's where the show is going, then I hope Ledo will only learn the truth after making the decision to oppose Kugel. If he learns a faulty A.I is responsible for this turn of event, it will be all too easy for him to make this decision. The main problem remains Chamber: will he remain faithful to Ledo? I like to think he has learned something from the Gargantians as well.

Bern-san
2013-06-16, 16:34
I actually think that maybe Lukkage made a deal with Striker, hence why she doesn't a mark.
Wonder how this will end... Happy ending with Ledo and Amy together in Gargantia or will Ledo die or Amy/Gargantia leaving Ledo in despair? I'm expecting some character death since it's weird that aside from the Commander none has been killed or something.
I hope the quality of this episode was to give us a good fight scene next week.

Enjou
2013-06-16, 16:48
And once again, Lukkage proves that in anime, you can't assume someone's dead until you see the body. (When she first crawled out of the lobster, did anyone else at first think that was just her limp body falling out?)

I never thought she was dead in the first place - her defeat didn't seem particularly lethal. She just passed out and got her tin lobster tossed into the distance as if her and her two cronies are Team Rocket.


Anywho, I think she's plotting a rebellion or escape of some sort. She doesn't seem the type to enjoy being under someone else's command.

Dark Wing
2013-06-16, 17:16
Why oh why is there only one season of this? Things are heating up in an interesting and scary way, but with all the buildup, I don't know if any ending, whether happy or sad, could possibly be satisfactory. They really shouldn't have dithered around so much during the show's midpoint.

Agreed, This is one of those rare instances where I do wish a show was longer the 13 episodes so much can be done with tohis current set up. However I still have faith that things will be rapped up by the end.

mikeomni
2013-06-16, 17:16
I also think that Striker has its part in the scheme. Something feels wrong about this "disease". How could he get a virus like that? Only 4 possibilities:

1. He got the virus before the battle in space against the Hideauze
2. He had for some reason during the space battle a PHYSICAL contact with a Hideauze (unlikely)
3. The warmhole somehow caused this
4. The virus just formed in his body.

But all these possiblities... I don't know... they seem strange... also that scene where Chamber asked for "information" regarding the disease screamed "Chekov's gun" to me. I am quite sure that it is NOT a red herring.

You'd think a MC with no gaps in it would be hermetically sealed. He even had a space suit as a backup. If he had the virus before the Hideauze space battle, he should have been unfit for duty and summarily disposed as defective. #2 and #3 are somehow unlikely. #4 is plausible. There is a #5, if he had at any point exited the MC and contracted that virus. But in Episode #1, Chamber scanned the environment for dangerous elements before letting Ledo out. In the confines of a space colony any sort of contagion is serious business, you'd think they have filters for those things. It looks like a Chekov's gun.

leongsh
2013-06-16, 17:21
Amy and her brother, Bevel, would be the determining factors for Ledo. Especially Bevel. Ledo has connected with him to see him like the brother he once had and could do nothing about when the Galactic Alliance disposed his younger brother.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-16, 17:40
Interesting episode. Pinion's reign of terror really was short lived as it was to be expected. At least he is accepting the fact without making a fuss thus recovering a bit from the past episode's descent in total douchebag territory.

Now there's really something wrong. Kugel not showing up in person is extremely suspicious. The endemic disease seemed like a bad conceived lie and Chamber apparently doesn't think of that as something plausible considering he conjectures other more plausible hypothesis for that.
When he asked more info about the endemic disease directly to Striker I thought he was already sniffing something fishy, but since he ran a check up on Ledo I guess it's entirely possible that he was simply concerned about his pilot's health.

Anyway the fact that Striker spoke to Pinion directly was also pretty suspicious (who would have thought that Pinion was actually talented?), and equally suspicious is the whole theory that "now that we have two machine calibers we can conquer the world". Why? Striker should have been more than powerful enough to subdue Gargantia, why does she need to send Ledo?

If we pair that with Striker's desire to get Pinion on her side as quick as possible, I guess it's likely that Striker isn't functioning properly. That might be because she no longer has enough energy or some kind of internal damage.

Anyway it's either Kugel who went full "heart of darkness" or Striker who went rogue and developed a goddess complex.

All that, and I'll raise with: what was that about radio silence? Who's there to eavesdrop, and decrypt GA communications? As far as we know, the only ones who can do that are 6000 light-years away.


Well, logically, the society that developed on the cultist fleet is not that different from what the Galactic Alliance does normally (after all, science and religion aren't as different as you'll think; science uses logic thus people sometimes follow blindly, but occasionally that logic can turn up to be flawed or drawn from incomplete premises).
People are people, but science and religion are fundamentally different, as LoweGear pointed out.

Still, I don't think Kugel, if it's him, is trying to make a GA away from the GA. He just went for some quick and dirty fix to make people do as he told them. He's more ambitious than Ledo, but he knows he doesn't have the resources to reproduce a space faring society. He just wants them to stop dicking around and start fighting the Hideauze on Earth.

I think it's good that he's ambitious, but I'm really not sure about his methods. On all levels.

I also think that Striker has its part in the scheme. Something feels wrong about this "disease". How could he get a virus like that? Only 4 possibilities:

1. He got the virus before the battle in space against the Hideauze
2. He had for some reason during the space battle a PHYSICAL contact with a Hideauze (unlikely)
3. The warmhole somehow caused this
4. The virus just formed in his body.

But all these possiblities... I don't know... they seem strange... also that scene where Chamber asked for "information" regarding the disease screamed "Chekov's gun" to me. I am quite sure that it is NOT a red herring.

He could have gone outside his cockpit a bit after he arrived and caught something there. And concluded the only way to survive was to stay in a sterile environment. It's actually weirder that Ledo didn't catch anything. You'd think the immune system of people living in space would be much weaker than that of primitives.

GreyZone
2013-06-16, 18:05
He could have gone outside his cockpit a bit after he arrived and caught something there. And concluded the only way to survive was to stay in a sterile environment. It's actually weirder that Ledo didn't catch anything. You'd think the immune system of people living in space would be much weaker than that of primitives.

Yes, that is possible, but as mikeomni said:

But in Episode #1, Chamber scanned the environment for dangerous elements before letting Ledo out. In the confines of a space colony any sort of contagion is serious business, you'd think they have filters for those things.

Mairsile
2013-06-16, 18:17
Chamber and Lukkage vs Striker. Come on, make it happen!Lukkage has something up her sleeve and I think her underlings were asking if it was their time to play their part in whatever scheme she has in mind.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-16, 18:23
I also think that Striker has its part in the scheme. Something feels wrong about this "disease". How could he get a virus like that? Only 4 possibilities:

1. He got the virus before the battle in space against the Hideauze
2. He had for some reason during the space battle a PHYSICAL contact with a Hideauze (unlikely)
3. The warmhole somehow caused this
4. The virus just formed in his body.

But all these possiblities... I don't know... they seem strange... also that scene where Chamber asked for "information" regarding the disease screamed "Chekov's gun" to me. I am quite sure that it is NOT a red herring.

Uh... according to the sub I watched the disease is supposed to be endemic (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/endemic).
That implies that it's some kind of virus or bacteria that exists on Earth and not among the people of the alliance.
All your speculated possibilities do not fit with the adjective "endemic".

The only way Kugel could have contracted an endemic disease is by getting out his cockpit and interacting with humans on Earth. Or by taking something from outside inside the cockpit like water and food.

Algent
2013-06-16, 18:47
Kugel actions are in the boundary of the Alliance teachings and since he was chosen as the leader of a very big attack (he lead all caliber units in episode 1) we can assume he is let's say "very compatible" to those teachings.

So yes there is a probability of him being dead and his AI could either have took charge or is running a simulation of Kugel personality. But with this in mind I don't think it would be relevant, a soldier can be a machine more easily than an AI can be empathic.

Still it would be interesting if they go a bit far into a AI route, something like "The Alliance is commanded by AI, and Kugel was a simulation from the start". After all we shouldn't forget this show have really AI, not just some bulls* ones.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-06-16, 19:00
I would just like to point out that this is completely and flat out wrong. Science is completely different from religion based on the fact that it tests for repetition and proof, and will change to accommodate new solid information. If the hypothesis does not come to a proper conclusion or turns out to be false, then science will find another explanation till the conclusion matches the observations. Thus for science, 1 + 1 will equal 2 unless proven otherwise by a test that shows 1 + 1 will sometimes equal 3, at which point tests will be conducted until they find the reason why such things occur, and then amend to say "1 + 1 = 2 unless X condition is met, and thus 1 + 1 = 3."

Religion on the other hand is based upon faith, the unshakeable belief in the correctness of something despite lack of tangible proof. Thus, if the religion says that 1 + 1 = 4, then that is what people will believe, even if tangible tests show that 1 + 1 = 2.

Scientists value logic and skepticism because it allows them to not leap to conclusions that may turn out to be false. They only follow what information they have until new developments either amend or disprove their earlier data, at which point changes will be made so that their conclusions match what they see. Religion is immutable, and relies on a constant that cannot be proven or disproven, only believed, no matter if there is no proof for it.

Thanks. I can see I'm not the only one that gets really irritated when people have such massive misconceptions. I was just about to start writing a long-winded post to correct him, but decided it isn't worth it. If someone isn't willing to educate themselves correctly, then that's their own loss.

Also, Ledo fighting with Kugel/Striker is so predictable that I hope it doesn't happen. I hate predictable plots. I am interested to see which side Chamber ends up on, how, and why.

SagaraSouske
2013-06-16, 19:01
I also think Striker went rogue and Kugel is prob already dead or worse yet, he had a disagreement with Striker and was killed by it/her.

Btw, why doesn't Lukkage or her crew have the symbol on their forehead?

This is gonna end with Chamber + Ledo vs Striker at the end with some how earth Hydeauze helping them in some shape or form to win.

ThereminVox
2013-06-16, 19:35
Dear Pinion: "What is wrong with your faaaaaaace?"

At first, when Kugel was going on about keeping "radio silence" instead of contacting Ledo, my BS detector went off, and I assumed he was already dead, as I'd speculated last week. But that was a pretty convincing hologram, and Chamber had a decent explanation why he might want to stay inside Striker, so now I don't really know what to think.

Nice of Melty to try to cheer Pinion up, even if it was in a backhanded way. There really is a camaraderie among the Gargantians, even after one of them screws up. They're forgiving almost to a fault, but that's their idea of unity, and I guess you have to compare it to Kugel's version.

The unexplained seated and bound figures that Pinion passed by were a nice, disturbing touch. I'm glad they left it to our imagination what's going on there. Besides, they're on a platform that is equipped with what appears to be a giant "f*ck these dudes" lever, so I don't think we need it spelled out.

Triple_R
2013-06-16, 19:59
This episode was an interesting watch, but some elements of it felt a bit weird to me. Ledo snaps out of things pretty fast, and I was a bit surprised at how "eager to serve" he initially was upon discovering that Kugel is alive (or, at least, that's what Striker wants Ledo to think). In fairness, I guess it's only natural that Ledo would be excited to finally be reunited with another human from the GA.

Similarly, Pinion took his "dethroning" pretty well. Fortunately for him, he slides pretty easily from a leadership position into a highly regarded (going by that feast prepared for him) Engineer. Unfortunately for him, nobody suffered from QUALITY animation in this episode as much as he did. :heh:


God this is really scary now. The show is really at the cross roads at the moment and unlike other anime where the path is usually obvious, I can really see this going either way. Total despair, or total awesomeness: Which is it going to be?

I agree. I think that the viewer is definitely meant to be disturbed by the society that Kugel/Striker have set up. If that society fully takes over, it will come across as a bleak, 1984-esque ending.

On the flip-side, if Ledo successfully rebels against it, then that could conceivably be a "total awesome" ending.


Chamber and Lukkage vs Striker. Come on, make it happen!

That would be a very fitting climax for this anime given its mecha elements, and given the setup that we have right now.

However, it would also require Chamber to kind of change his mind, as thus far he appears to be in full agreement with Striker.

Perhaps next episode will be about Ledo trying to change Chamber's mind, leading into an Episode 12 cliffhanger of Chamber/Lukkage challenging Striker to a climatic duel that will be the main showcase of the final episode.

FlareKnight
2013-06-16, 20:47
Well I could certainly see Ledo needing to sacrifice Chamber in order to bring down Striker by the end. They could go from 2 of these units down to one in a pretty big hurry depending on how things unfold.

I didn't think too much of it, but the Striker being the one in charge route does make some sense. In order to convince Ledo would obviously need to simulate someone that he would actually follow the orders of almost without thinking.

Otherwise it would still follow within expectations that Kugel set up this grand cult in order to take over and then wipe out the Hideauze. Could see a more experienced soldier having the willingness to more or less take over the fleet he first encountered and then just start expanding from there.

At least going after Gargantia should be the kick Ledo needs to stand up against these orders, though probably not immediately. In the end whether Kugel is alive or not almost won't matter. Since the only way I can see them resolving this is scrapping Striker which would force him out into the environment.

On the AI front I wonder if Striker actually just tricked Kugel into thinking he was sick. Would be more efficient for setting up that cult if he was suffering from a kind of isolation. If he's disconnected from the world outside of his unit could make him more willing to take such extreme methods.

Irenesharda
2013-06-16, 20:58
Okay, either this show is going to end in the most sappy, stereotypical, "I-could-have-written-this-myself" ending, or they might try for something a little more original.

So Capt. Kugel has introduced the Galactic Alliance's society to Earth, and we begin to see the other extreme of argument on the advancement of society. Sometimes humans "advance" to the point were things go wrong and they too lose touch with their humanity.

The Hideauze are forgotten as we see Kugel continue to push for the advancement of the human race and make them more efficient. Pinion and Flange and their fleet are dragged into it and Kugel is planning an operation that involves Gargantia.

How will Red react and will he continually follow orders blindly?

However, why do I get the funny feeling that Kugel is dead and this is Striker's doing? Could it be that after her commander died the machine carried on the mission of the GA using the hologram of Kugel as a front?

I'm very suspicious of the fact that no one has actually seen Kugel and even Red has only seen computer images or holograms of him. Is this really going to be the machines taking over? Is Striker the "Skynet" of this series?

Well, I'm interested in seeing what this series will do, but I just hope we don't get a sappy, fluffy ending. What will happen in the end?

I give this episode a 7.69/10.

GreyZone
2013-06-16, 21:03
So yes there is a probability of him being dead and his AI could either have took charge or is running a simulation of Kugel personality. But with this in mind I don't think it would be relevant, a soldier can be a machine more easily than an AI can be empathic.

Well there is a HUGE difference between these two scenarios actually. While Kugel is higher in the chain of command than Ledo, Striker is NOT. That's a huge difference for Chamber!

Also I have my suspicions about Chamber... something tells me he is a good guy... I think that request for information about the disease was not simply there to check if Ledo is infected as well... there is a deeper meaning behind it, I am sure it is a "Chekov's gun".


EDIT:
@Irenesharda: The canon romanji form is Ledo and not Red. Check the Ledo thread.

Also I am wondering if the series will end with a massive EMP that destroys both chamber and striker and also the wormhole device...

Irenesharda
2013-06-16, 21:22
@Irenesharda: The canon romanji form is Ledo and not Red. Check the Ledo thread.



I call him Red because I want to. I'm not the only one either. Red or Ledo, or whatever goes by a lot of names across the web. I like to call him Red.

Anyway, I think there might be a possibility that even if Chamber goes against Striker, which I think he will, Striker could try to override Chamber's systems since her machine being the machine of a commander probably has override codes for Chamber's model.

Another thing I thought about with Kugel was that when we saw him in the beginning, this was a guy who was willing to sacrifice his life for others and go even against GA protocol when the situation called for it.

However, the one we see now, shows none of that. That's another thing that makes me suspicious of Kugel and whether it's really him or Striker calling the shots.

Triple_R
2013-06-16, 21:23
Well there is a HUGE difference between these two scenarios actually. While Kugel is higher in the chain of command than Ledo, Striker is NOT. That's a huge difference for Chamber!

Also I have my suspicions about Chamber... something tells me he is a good guy... I think that request for information about the disease was not simply there to check if Ledo is infected as well...

I agree. Chamber isn't just blindly assuming that Striker is telling the truth. When Chamber requested information about the disease, I took it as Chamber kind of raising his eyebrows (if he had eyebrows :heh:) and basically saying "Reallly now? That's a bit hard to believe. Can I see your evidence please?"

Perhaps Striker's AI was somehow corrupted by being thrown through the wormhole, and she has indeed become the new Skynet. If so, maybe Chamber ends up finding a hole in her official story, and that leads into Chamber changing his mind and siding with Ledo against Striker.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-16, 21:29
I'm still uncertain in the "Striker is doing the Wizard of Oz thing with a dead Kugel" area. What I'm pondering now is the significance of Ledo seeing Kugel (because Kugel is alive and/or Ledo won't follow anyone other than Kugel) while Pinion saw Striker. If Striker was able to imitate Kugel, I don't see why it would show itself as Striker to Pinion, unless Striker is smart enough to know that Pinion is better with machines than people.

And while I think that the idea that Striker could be keeping Kugel locked inside the MC for its own reasons is plausible, I don't know if a Striker vs. Kugel twist would just be adding unnecessarily to the twist pileup that is already happening at the end of the series.

Tranhieu
2013-06-16, 21:31
Thus for science, 1 + 1 will equal 2 unless proven otherwise by a test that shows 1 + 1 will sometimes equal 3, at which point tests will be conducted until they find the reason why such things occur, and then amend to say "1 + 1 = 2 unless X condition is met, and thus 1 + 1 = 3."

Religion on the other hand is based upon faith, the unshakeable belief in the correctness of something despite lack of tangible proof. Thus, if the religion says that 1 + 1 = 4, then that is what people will believe, even if tangible tests show that 1 + 1 = 2.

You should add that 1+1=2 is only true in Rn or other bases that's spanned by similar vectors :D I can bring out a proof for 1+1=0 if we are entering another basis :D

Mathematics aside this episode left me a bit puzzled in the sense that there seems to be nothing wrong with how the story's going (to me), but I just cannot bring myself to give it a perfect score or even close to that. There's something fundamentally wrong with Kurgel's scheming, I mean all that talk about changing humanity of his sounds more like his way to gain more power and to reign over all else in the end. What good does the new society order bring and how's that even related to the whalesquid war in Earth? And not to mention there hadn't been a single war against the squid until Chamber and Striker were scavenged from the seabed. I mean it's like suddenly charging in your neighbor's house and then announce that everyone must live the way you want them to from now on...

And btw I was wishing somebody from the other fleet would fire a beam right at Pinion's head after he commenced the attack all on his own. Too bad it was the pillar took the hit, not the jerk himself.

LystAP
2013-06-16, 21:38
I would just like to point out that this is completely and flat out wrong. Science is completely different from religion based on the fact that it tests for repetition and proof, and will change to accommodate new solid information. If the hypothesis does not come to a proper conclusion or turns out to be false, then science will find another explanation till the conclusion matches the observations. Thus for science, 1 + 1 will equal 2 unless proven otherwise by a test that shows 1 + 1 will sometimes equal 3, at which point tests will be conducted until they find the reason why such things occur, and then amend to say "1 + 1 = 2 unless X condition is met, and thus 1 + 1 = 3."

Religion on the other hand is based upon faith, the unshakeable belief in the correctness of something despite lack of tangible proof. Thus, if the religion says that 1 + 1 = 4, then that is what people will believe, even if tangible tests show that 1 + 1 = 2.

Scientists value logic and skepticism because it allows them to not leap to conclusions that may turn out to be false. They only follow what information they have until new developments either amend or disprove their earlier data, at which point changes will be made so that their conclusions match what they see. Religion is immutable, and relies on a constant that cannot be proven or disproven, only believed, no matter if there is no proof for it.

I can refute part of that absolution on the basis that very few of the major religions are as unshakeable as you state; if they were, they wouldn't have lasted as long as they did nor would they have become as popular even in the modern day. As an example, in Judeo-Christo tradition, the only absolute rules laid down anywhere is the Ten Commandments, and even that is open to some brand of lawyering by particular sects; the majority of scripture originates or are based on off-hand accounts and interpretations that is often based on the perspective of the individual interpreting the said scripture. Otherwise there would be no need for the clergy, whom are often responsible for deducing, often times through a process similar to that of those in the scientific field, the proper response or interpretation to a particular problem (thus why many of the earliest Western scientists, especially during the Dark Ages were members of the clergy), although precedence does tend to have a higher imperative; in many religions this is still often the case.

Another example is sharia law, despite what many in the United States have come to believe, sharia law can be as flexible, fair, and complex as the Western legal tradition, this is why it continues to be popular in many of the better developed Muslim countries despite their access to secular law and education; although admittedly there are branches that still suffer from out-of-date cultural contexts. No true religion, at least not one that survives in the long term, would declare that 1 + 1 = 3, at least not without losing their constituency or being seen as crazed heretics by the mainstream religion. Would you believe in a God that doesn't make any sense? No one would, and if they did, they would usually have developed that decision from faulty premises, something called Locke's Madman; a condition of which the scientific fields are far from immune too.

Going back to Kugel's cult, although Kugel and Striker use religion as a proxy for their "rehabilitation" of the earth-bound humans (they may as well not see what they're doing as creating a religion, but conforming the people to the basic standards of the Galactic Alliance), the same conclusion can be drawn from the necessity of the Galactic Alliance's culture; in a way, you could say the Galactic Alliance and its' ideals of human superiority is a religion in of itself; there is logic in it if you only consider it from the viewpoint and experiences of the Galactic Alliance, like the way Kugel most likely still does. (I find this inflexibility strangely typical of adults in anime, especially in series targeted towards younger folk.)

But for Ledo, who has developed new experiences and values, the logic of the Galactic Alliance, of Kugel, and even Chamber no longer possesses as much value as they would have had Ledo never left his cockpit. For Kugel, what he is doing is as logical as 1 + 1 = 2, the possibility of Ledo rebelling against him would make as much sense as making the sum 3. But from Ledo's perspective, Kugel left out the 1 (the humanity that the Gargantians taught Ledo) that makes it 3. Kugel can't see that 1 from his mecha Olympus, but Ledo can, thanks to Amy, Bellows, and the other Gargantians. Kugel isn't incorrect in his choices, from a certain well-intentioned extremist point of view, but neither would Ledo be if he chose to rebel against Kugel and Striker in defending the Gargantia.

Irenesharda
2013-06-16, 21:40
I'm still uncertain in the "Striker is doing the Wizard of Oz thing with a dead Kugel" area. What I'm pondering now is the significance of Ledo seeing Kugel (because Kugel is alive and/or Ledo won't follow anyone other than Kugel) while Pinion saw Striker. If Striker was able to imitate Kugel, I don't see why it would show itself as Striker to Pinion, unless Striker is smart enough to know that Pinion is better with machines than people.

And while I think that the idea that Striker could be keeping Kugel locked inside the MC for its own reasons is plausible, I don't know if a Striker vs. Kugel twist would just be adding unnecessarily to the twist pileup that is already happening at the end of the series.

I think it's all a matter of knowing who you're talking to. Striker would know that Red wouldn't obey the commands of a machine. He knows exactly what the Machine Calibers are capable of, how they were made and everything.

However, Pinion and the humans of Earth are still primitive and still treat Striker and Chamber with awe. They wouldn't question the fact that only a mech is talking to them. They have never seen a hologram before and even Pinion wouldn't really question a hologram of Chamber talking to him. However, Red knows better about how an officer would speak to another officer. He would expect to talk to Kugel, not Striker.

Striker needs Chamber for something. She would be sure to get Red's cooperation.

Unknown Soldier
2013-06-16, 21:50
This sure got dumb in a hurry.

They only have 2 episodes left to resolve this, good luck guys.

Cadallin
2013-06-16, 21:52
I'm in the group that says Kugel is dead, and Striker is running the show, and generally more convinced the Galactic Alliance is a laws of robots dystopia. I'd say humans haven't been involved in running things there for a long time. I would guess that the AIs really do just have a laws of robotics type ultimatum to keep humans around.

And why wouldn't they? They're running everything.

And its a pretty horribly shame this isn't 24-26 episodes, there's plenty of stuff to explore here.

Triple_R
2013-06-16, 21:52
I think that the religion/science discussion, while somewhat interesting, is a bit beside the point here.

The key is that the GA is based on a particular governmental ideology (survival of the fittest, people are rewarded or cast aside depending on their value to the collective, said value itself being rooted in the war effort against the Hideauze).

This ideology can be framed in scientific terms or in religious terms. But the framing is just superficial, and is chosen based upon what the people are likely to be most responsive to. The key is that the core ideology is the same in either case, which I think is clear from all the scenes in this episode that Pinion was in. Kugel and/or Striker are aiming to create a mini-GU here, and are aiming for a religious framing rather than a scientific one probably because they view these people as simply not knowledgeable enough (about things like genetics, say) to grasp the scientific framing.

LystAP
2013-06-16, 22:05
I think that the religion/science discussion, while somewhat interesting, is a bit beside the point here.

The key is that the GA is based on a particular governmental ideology (survival of the fittest, people are rewarded or cast aside depending on their value to the collective, said value itself being rooted in the war effort against the Hideauze).

This ideology can be framed in scientific terms or in religious terms. But the framing is just superficial, and is chosen based upon what the people are likely to be most responsive to. The key is that the core ideology is the same in either case, which I think is clear from all the scenes in this episode that Pinion was in. Kugel and/or Striker are aiming to create a mini-GU here, and are aiming for a religious framing rather than a scientific one probably because they view these people as simply not knowledgeable enough (about things like genetics, say) to grasp the scientific framing.

Agreed, and I apologize for taking it a little out of topic. I just have a habit of responding to extreme statements, especially when it come to a topic as complex as that of the relationship between science and religion; which I also apologize if my initial statement was in anyway extreme as well, I thought I was just expressing an opinion.

I still believe it's really Kugel in Striker, and not Striker going out on its' own. Commander Kugel is just carrying out what he has dedicated the majority of his life and career too (if you recall, Kugel thought he was old enough that he was willing to sacrifice himself for Ledo, since Ledo was younger and could kill more Hidueaze than he could). For him to forsake that life, may as well invalidate much of his existence, something potentially a lot more psychologically damaging than if someone as young as Ledo chose too. It's like laying off a old steelworker (or any old worker that spent decades in a specific occupation or field), and expecting him to do just as well as someone younger than him.

Funkatron
2013-06-16, 22:14
I have a feeling Kugel and/or Striker have nothing to do with the religious framing. We already know that among the fleet some worship/revere the whalesquid at a near deity level. I think that after seeing Kugel/Striker fall from the sky and/or in action they took them in as a savior/messiah figure, relegating them to their new gods. Kugel/Striker just never dissuaded the worship because it was easier to control them that way

Jan-Poo
2013-06-16, 22:24
We already know that among the fleet some worship/revere the whalesquid at a near deity level.

The alleged whalesquid worship keeps popping up, but where does it come from? Unless I missed something there isn't anything that suggests any of the gargantians worship whalesquids rather than simply thinking that killing them brings bad luck.


I think that after seeing Kugel/Striker fall from the sky and/or in action they took them in as a savior/messiah figure, relegating them to their new gods. Kugel/Striker just never dissuaded the worship because it was easier to control them that way

The cultist aspect in this fleet is so widespread and heavily affecting the life of its members that the mere fact that Kugel/Striker do not do anything to remove it is an implied approval to its enforcement.

Triple_R
2013-06-16, 22:27
Agreed, and I apologize for taking it a little out of topic. I just have a habit of responding to extreme statements, especially when it come to a topic as complex as that of the relationship between science and religion; which I also apologize if my initial statement was in anyway extreme as well, I thought I was just expressing an opinion.

Your opinion was fine. Actually, I thought it was pretty eloquent and nicely nuanced.

However, I think that we shouldn't lose sight of the core ideology driving what's going on here. This is a harsh, arguably dehumanizing order that now garbs itself in religion instead of in science, but the core ideological issues remain the same. This is about the ways of the GU trying to impose themselves on the Earth of Gargantia. Will Ledo go along with that, or will he fight back to preserve the lifestyle and ways of his new Gargantian friends?


I still believe it's really Kugel in Striker, and not Striker going out on its' own. Commander Kugel is just carrying out what he has dedicated the majority of his life and career too (if you recall, Kugel thought he was old enough that he was willing to sacrifice himself for Ledo, since Ledo was younger and could kill more Hidueaze than he could). For him to forsake that life, may as well invalidate much of his existence, something potentially a lot more psychologically damaging than if someone as young as Ledo chose too. It's like laying off a old steelworker (or any old worker that spent decades in a specific occupation or field), and expecting him to do just as well as someone younger than him.

You could be right. In some ways, I'd rather this be the real Kugel since that would add a bit more "Oomph!" to the pathos of Ledo breaking free from his GU "parentage" to become his own adult man by freely choosing the ways of the Gargantians.

OTOH, holograms everywhere is mighty suspicious, and Kugel being dead would "free up" Chamber in ways that him being alive might not. If Kugel is dead, then Ensign Ledo is the highest-ranking human here, and Chamber may hold that this makes Ledo's directives more important than Striker's.


I have a feeling Kugel and/or Striker have nothing to do with the religious framing. We already know that among the fleet some worship/revere the whalesquid at a near deity level. I think that after seeing Kugel/Striker fall from the sky and/or in action they took them in as a savior/messiah figure, relegating them to their new gods. Kugel/Striker just never dissuaded the worship because it was easier to control them that way

You could be right. It might have been a choice of immediate convenience rather than anything carefully plotted out.

LystAP
2013-06-16, 22:36
You could be right. In some ways, I'd rather this be the real Kugel since that would add a bit more "Oomph!" to the pathos of Ledo breaking free from his GU "parentage" to become his own adult man by freely choosing the ways of the Gargantians.

.

It being Kugel would also fit in with the whole "growing up and going into society" theme Urobuchi wanted for Gargantia if I recall. Kugel may as well be the father-figure in Ledo's life going by their relationship in the first episode and Ledo's responses in this episode. Although in this case, he's "rebelling" against what his "father and family" (Kugel and the Galactic Alliance) want him to do with his life; something a lot of us can associate with. Although most of us do it with a lot less blood than what Urobuchi may be planning.

Triple_R
2013-06-16, 22:41
It being Kugel would also fit in with the whole "growing up and going into society" theme Urobuchi wanted for Gargantia if I recall. Kugel may as well be the father-figure in Ledo's life going by their relationship in the first episode and Ledo's responses in this episode. Although in this case, he's "rebelling" against what his "father and family" (Kugel and the Galactic Alliance) want him to do with his life; something a lot of us can associate with. Although most of us do it with a lot less blood than what Urobuchi may be planning.

Agreed.

Fighting against a human father-figure carries a bit more emotional weight/resonance, I think, then fighting against a machine. So yeah, I hope this is the real Kugel.

But even if it's not, I think we have a decent setup for a good climax.


Gargantia has certainly had a lot of twists and turns and unusual genre mixes throughout, but as a total narrative, it's coming across as increasingly solid to me.

Irenesharda
2013-06-16, 22:43
Agreed, and I apologize for taking it a little out of topic. I just have a habit of responding to extreme statements, especially when it come to a topic as complex as that of the relationship between science and religion; which I also apologize if my initial statement was in anyway extreme as well, I thought I was just expressing an opinion.

I still believe it's really Kugel in Striker, and not Striker going out on its' own. Commander Kugel is just carrying out what he has dedicated the majority of his life and career too (if you recall, Kugel thought he was old enough that he was willing to sacrifice himself for Ledo, since Ledo was younger and could kill more Hidueaze than he could). For him to forsake that life, may as well invalidate much of his existence, something potentially a lot more psychologically damaging than if someone as young as Ledo chose too. It's like laying off a old steelworker (or any old worker that spent decades in a specific occupation or field), and expecting him to do just as well as someone younger than him.

I guess it's possible, but actually the way I saw Kugel in episode 1 actually reinforced my suspicions that something strange is going on. Kugel was willing to go against GA protocol, he put the survival of others ahead of the rules. He was willing to die to protect others, which wouldn't actually go with the GA's rhetoric of leaving the weak to die.

Yet, now he's pretty much a public icon and example of the Alliance's rules, and law and order? Something just doesn't mesh for me.

I think this will be a challenge to not only Red, but to Chamber as well, as he will have to decide whether to go with Striker's logic or not. However, I truly think that if it came down to it, Chamber would side with Red. His main objective has been to care for and protect his pilot, and I think he would continue to do that even if it led to his own destruction.

monir
2013-06-16, 22:50
This sure got dumb in a hurry.

They only have 2 episodes left to resolve this, good luck guys.

After watching this episode, I'm convinced two episodes are one too many to resolve this. The end card is pretty much a battle between Programmed Ledo VS. Enlightened Ledo. He either goes along with Striker's plan thanks to his programming, or he overrides his programming (likely scenario) and he doesn't. And if he doesn't he still needs to convince Chamber to go against Striker.

playmaker2k
2013-06-16, 22:52
I have a feeling that Kugel is dead and Striker created this cult.

Last episode, Chamber made a comment about being obsolete if there's wasn't any hideuze left.

I wonder if that also meant if their own pilot died in action especially in an unknown planet where the A.I. is left alone to constantly update its surroundings for self-preservation or should I say for the sake of its existence.

Being obsolete for an A.I. is the equivalent of a slow and painful death.

The most telling part is when Striker was the one talking to Pinion instead of Kugel himself.

When negotiating with another "ranking" personnel like Pinion, Kugel should be the one convincing him and not his A.I.

What I think happen is, Kugel died and his rotting corpse is contaminating the machine calibur, Striker.

That probably explains the endemic disease which I think is just rigor mortis.

Striker deceived them in order to maintain the GA proctol for its own purpose in order to stay relevant.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-16, 23:25
I like to think Chamber being participant of Gargantia's labor force finds their system more efficient than what either Kugel or Striker are imposing on their fleet.

Plus if it is Striker Chamber may find it a malfunctioning piece of equipment trying to trick him and Ledo as well as enslaving the human race. As it goes against his prime directive to serve man.

Principalities
2013-06-16, 23:28
Does anyone think there could be a fundamental difference in AIs Chamber and Striker? Chamber has always described itself as a pilot support system which could be due to Ledo's young age and therefore assigned a 'guiding/parental' type AI. Striker on the other hand belongs to a commanding officer and is more likely the absolute cold military type.

Irenesharda
2013-06-16, 23:37
I have a feeling that Kugel is dead and Striker created this cult.

Last episode, Chamber made a comment about being obsolete if there's wasn't any hideuze left.

I wonder if that also meant if their own pilot died in action especially in an unknown planet where the A.I. is left alone to constantly update its surroundings for self-preservation or should I say for the sake of its existence.

Being obsolete for an A.I. is the equivalent of a slow and painful death.

The most telling part is when Striker was the one talking to Pinion instead of Kugel himself.

When negotiating with another "ranking" personnel like Pinion, Kugel should be the one convincing him and not his A.I.

What I think happen is, Kugel died and his rotting corpse is contaminating the machine calibur, Striker.

That probably explains the endemic disease which I think is just rigor mortis.

Striker deceived them in order to maintain the GA proctol for its own purpose in order to stay relevant.

I thought of that. It would be interesting in that the overall plot seems to be about the pros and cons that come from the advancement of humans and what they are able to do. I would then think it apropos that they have to now fight against what was considered the pinnacle of human technology advancement. That's another reason I'm leaning toward the final villain being Striker.

However, this show would still keep with it's ambiguous morals as just as their are good and bad factors to the GA, Striker would present one extreme of technology and advancement getting out of control, while Chamber represents the other side.

monir
2013-06-17, 00:07
Does anyone think there could be a fundamental difference in AIs Chamber and Striker? Chamber has always described itself as a pilot support system which could be due to Ledo's young age and therefore assigned a 'guiding/parental' type AI. Striker on the other hand belongs to a commanding officer and is more likely the absolute cold military type.

That's an interesting question! :)

Whatever difference these to AI might have in the aesthetic and formalities, their logical input for self-preservation should be about the same as clearly outlined by Chamber in the last episode. The only difference between Striker and Chamber might be Striker's making decision all by itself (providing the pilot is long dead) while Chamber still gets a human (Ledo) input. For example, Ledo's insistence was what got Chamber to declassify those information revealing the common ancestor between GA and Hideauze.

Of course, there is also a possibility that Striker is still carrying out a human will, living or dead, as it is moving through these plans.

BoyTitan
2013-06-17, 00:09
Hmm while cliche this is still some what good these last few eps have been better.

While the whale quid in space are a absolute evil,the Galactic army has became evil with power of years of combat a necessary evil when facing a stronger enemy but when such a situation ceases to exist they are nothing more than evil from power . If either side expands it would be trouble for all life including earth if it is ever found.

Ledo's commander is essentially what would happen to him if he went by the empires ways and forced everyone under his command the strong do as they please but also serve em while the weak are forced to serve em. The weakest getting well terminated we can see how in the latter ep with um the sick kid whos name I forget this will create a problem as Ledo's commander will probably want people like him dead.

In the end I see Pinion,Ledo one of the ship captain living at the least and the humans left on earth striking a balance between having a military&civilization they will need to use pinion to advance the technology and raise their standard of living but also develop weapons they might even strike peace with the whale squid coexisting and helping each other advance its the only way I can see that when either the whale squid from space or galactic alliance find earth in the future that they are strong enough to stop them.

FlareKnight
2013-06-17, 00:13
I think it'd be fine either way. Both struggling against a superior that Ledo has respected is a good conflict, but also fighting against an AI that is pushing forward this view of what is best for humanity. Both conflicts have some interesting aspects to them and could make for a good final showdown.

Though I can't wait for the explanation as to why they are targeting Gargantia. It's a pretty good sized fleet which I suppose would make it worth adding to the Borg collective here :heh:. But just seems rather coincidental for just that reason. Maybe also because Striker/Kugel knows that is where Ledo has spent a lot of his time and wants to stamp out any doubts in his mind while still having that strong authority over him?
Hmm while cliche this is still some what good these last few eps have been better.

While the whale quid in space are a absolute evil,the Galactic army has became evil with power of years of combat a necessary evil when facing a stronger enemy but when such a situation ceases to exist they are nothing more than evil from power . If either side expands it would be trouble for all life including earth if it is ever found.

Ledo's commander is essentially what would happen to him if he went by the empires ways and forced everyone under his command the strong do as they please but also serve em while the weak are forced to serve em. The weakest getting well terminated we can see how in the latter ep with um the sick kid whos name I forget this will create a problem as Ledo's commander will probably want people like him dead.

In the end I see Pinion,Ledo one of the ship captain living at the least and the humans left on earth striking a balance between having a military&civilization they will need to use pinion to advance the technology and raise their standard of living but also develop weapons they might even strike peace with the whale squid coexisting and helping each other advance its the only way I can see that when either the whale squid from space or galactic alliance find earth in the future that they are strong enough to stop them.While I'm not sure about the GA having become evil, I do agree that a moderate approach is probably how the people on Earth should move forward. Maybe hold off on annihilating all Hideauze in the Ocean until they pose a direct threat while making use of the tech they have gained. Think Strikers suggestion to Pinion is a good way to move forward. Learn how to use that technology and start developing your own stuff. Humanity has been spending too much time just dragging up its old stuff from the depths and not making nearly enough progress on their own. Looking to the past is helpful, but they do need to innovate for themselves or they are just too dependent on tech they just happened to find.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-17, 00:16
Though I can't wait for the explanation as to why they are targeting Gargantia.

Are they specifically targeting Gargantia? It could be, but at the start of the episode we were told that they were going to get close to the sea of mist by their own.

The explanation for them being chosen as the first target could be as simple as the fact that they happen to be the closest large fleet on the area.

FlareKnight
2013-06-17, 00:20
Are they specifically targeting Gargantia? It could be, but at the start of the episode we were told that they were going to get close to the sea of mist by their own.

The explanation for them being chosen as the first target could be as simple as the fact that they happen to be the closest large fleet on the area.Yeah, that's a pretty good point as well :). But Kugel did state that this was a large-scale missionary mission he'd been planning for a while. Their proximity is probably helpful, but it seems like Gargantia has been a target for some time.

Also want to say in regard to the Striker or Kugel debate, it is a bit suspicious that someone who's commenting about health issues has yet to be seen wearing his helmet. Ledo is always throwing that thing on when piloting Chamber. I know he's living in there, but would he just go casual at the same time?

Endless Soul
2013-06-17, 00:28
Zod, I really detest the "Join our religion or die" attitude the new people have. And what the hell was going on with those people wrapped in white while others were just standing around smiling at them? Human sacrifices? Are they deemed unfit and fated to be disposed of like Ledo's brother?

On another note, I really enjoyed the background music in this episode. It really helped to set that creepy vibe.

Lastly, I'm glad Melty is still safe.

Endless "Take your religion and shove it" Soul

Jan-Poo
2013-06-17, 00:32
http://plonq.org/up/51be9e806957b.jpg

At fist I thought that it was a rat, but it looks like Grace isn't the last of her species.
I wonder if this has some relevance

monir
2013-06-17, 00:32
Zod, I really detest the "Join our religion or die" attitude the new people have. And what the hell was going on with those people wrapped in white while others were just standing around smiling at them? Human sacrifices? Are they deemed unfit and fated to be disposed of like Ledo's brother?

Or could it be possible programming taking place so they can appear as the happy looking people who are staring away? :p

Endless Soul
2013-06-17, 00:34
Or could it be possible programming taking place so they can appear as the happy looking people who are staring away? :p

Ahh yes, that's a good thought.

Endless "Re-programmed" Soul

rocket
2013-06-17, 00:36
Much better than last episode... was on the edge of my seat. Lots of tension, can't wait to see how the cord snaps!

Ok, so holograms are fishy, I wonder if Kugel also discovered the truth about the whalesquids and didn't take it quite so casually...

In any case it seems that we're now being treated to more Gen patented ultra despair - the squidies have given up humanity to become literal animals, oh and the humans have given up their humanity to become amoral figurative animals.

I suspect that Kugel is dead, because otherwise I can't see Chamber supporting Ledo's inevitable mutiny.

On the other hand, perhaps Pirate Queen and Pinion will play some role in re-programming Chamber. Yeah, for me Pirate Queen is clearly reprising the classic Nadia role - this show recalls Nadia so badly that it's a little tooth-aching at times. Pinion could've come from the Grandis Gang, and I can't imagine why they wrote in the Doctor's loli (and gave her a spot in the OP) unless it's to recall Marie.

So yes, I'm not sure how, but Pinion and Pirate Queen (with cute sidekicks to boot) will inevitably be redeemed - though perhaps Gen will allow them all to add to the body count.

In the end I predict Ledo and Amy surviving (new happy Gen), and Chamber being the noble sacrifice for humanity's third way (in coexistence with the native squidies).

However, I think that we shouldn't lose sight of the core ideology driving what's going on here. This is a harsh, arguably dehumanizing order that now garbs itself in religion instead of in science, but the core ideological issues remain the same. This is about the ways of the GU trying to impose themselves on the Earth of Gargantia.


Yes, cult GA and brave new GA should be seen with the same revulsion... *shudder* levers of flaming flamyness indeed... (though that does make me want to go boot up Borderlands2).

scr
2013-06-17, 00:53
All heil God-Emperor of Humanity, Col. Kugel! ...not!

I'm not sure he knows what he's doing. He basically wants to be a fascist overlord and he acts like it's perpetual resource starvation. This is Earth not space, water is abundant, so instead of becoming a Kim Jong Il expy he should start reverse engineering his robots and create a system that ensures the stable foundation of humanity via prosperity. Only then he can start exterminating the Hideauze, starting from the ones in Earth.

Perhaps he has a primal fear of being disposed as he's clearly deficient in the Alliance sense, so he's building his own personal fiefdom just in case the Alliance rears its head. Between this and his fascist upbringing, he end up with delusion of godhood.

trinitem
2013-06-17, 01:06
Kugel had himself an AIDS-ridden prostitute shortly after reaching earth. With his immune system out of the way, Kugel was forced to the confines of his sterile machine caliber lest he succumb to common diseases of earth.

Ok, so holograms are fishy, I wonder if Kugel also discovered the truth about the whalesquids and didn't take it quite so casually...

Hologram and sketch seem to be the pair for this thread. I'm on the boat of Kugel having been disposed of. My reasoning is also similar with the Kugel not liking the truth about the hideauze.

Machine calibers disobey orders like with the roast squid incident, but that only seems to happen when the pilot isn't following along with humanity's "best interests". Kugel freaked, Striker said no, and Kugel quickly disappeared.

Chamber has already calculated a return to the alliance as practically impossible, so unless we get some major voodoo, the remainder of the story looks small scale with 2 episodes remaining. Let's get this machine caliber duel going!

Amy's brother is deemed worthless -> Ledo defends Gargantia's ideals -> Ledo duels Kugel and/or Striker -> Ledo wins and learns to coexist in the after war earth.

Must say though, Pinions got a lot of points for me with this episode. He didn't try to pass on responsibility for previous episode actions.

BoyTitan
2013-06-17, 01:11
I think it'd be fine either way. Both struggling against a superior that Ledo has respected is a good conflict, but also fighting against an AI that is pushing forward this view of what is best for humanity. Both conflicts have some interesting aspects to them and could make for a good final showdown.

Though I can't wait for the explanation as to why they are targeting Gargantia. It's a pretty good sized fleet which I suppose would make it worth adding to the Borg collective here :heh:. But just seems rather coincidental for just that reason. Maybe also because Striker/Kugel knows that is where Ledo has spent a lot of his time and wants to stamp out any doubts in his mind while still having that strong authority over him?
While I'm not sure about the GA having become evil, I do agree that a moderate approach is probably how the people on Earth should move forward. Maybe hold off on annihilating all Hideauze in the Ocean until they pose a direct threat while making use of the tech they have gained. Think Strikers suggestion to Pinion is a good way to move forward. Learn how to use that technology and start developing your own stuff. Humanity has been spending too much time just dragging up its old stuff from the depths and not making nearly enough progress on their own. Looking to the past is helpful, but they do need to innovate for themselves or they are just too dependent on tech they just happened to find.


Well there is no power source strong enough to power the more advance human tech laying around aside from whale squid so coexistence and co development sounds like the best out come and could lead to completely new technology's of neither the galactic alliance or whale squid creation.Near limitless energy mixed with super advanced technology sounds like a pretty simple and great match. Wonder why the alliance never thought of it :v. Chamber in full power mode was killing whale squid like fodder in space till he ran outa energy almost,useing whale squid as energy would have fixed that then they could continuously attack the whale squid and develop even more powerful weapons.

Also the fact that people on earth who are powerful get treated way better than anyone else example the tons of food pinion got while other people are probably starving, The pirate chick being able to keep her ship and 2 friends around and lounge about. That is the reason I stated the Alliance was also evil. They probably have enough food and space to keep weak people like Ledos brother who was sent to death but choose not to accommodate them. We have only seen the condition of the soldiers since the commander knew more and had people/manipulation skills Ledo does not posses there has to be a caste system in place. Scientist,Engineers and Politicians probably live a luxury life style,Under them Relatives of such people and retired people make up high class citizens,Under them are Commanders,Below them are soldiers who can not pilot and man ships who probably have a lower life expectancy than soldiers, under them are low class citizens and finally the sick and skilles are sent to death.

Ledo has no knowledge on how caste systems work or how to manipulate people Kugel is a expert on it. So therefor Kugel would need knowledge on how a unfair caste system works like the G.A. in order to make one which is why I said the G.A. has become evil threw power.

This anime really has a big enough world to span into a longer series and cover different arcs.

Wow theories trying to state machine calibers run things and not humans meeh just not possible

1 Why would they need humans then why can't they pilot themselves.

2 Why would robots want a organic planet.

3 Why does chamber or striker not have any knowledge on how to develop or maintain weapons.

4 Why is a chamber out of the loop then but striker isn't doesn't make sense.

5 Kugel seems smarter at dealing with people than chamber if he is smarter than Ledo's A.I. he is Smarter than Stryker makes no sense for one A.I. to be Smarter than the other. Actually chamber has been learning how people function and their reasoning to do things while on earth and if anything would now be smarter than stryker so its a fact Kugel is still alive and running things he is just to smart with manipulating people.

It make more sense for Kugal to be shown as a way of presenting the evils of the alliance.The series has been presenting some of there reasonable ways as inhumane and now need a case to back it u. Also kugal already stated he knew the Whale Squid were once human as in he knew about it long before coming to earth why are questions on how he handled finding out being asked ?

Mairsile
2013-06-17, 01:25
If Kugel is alive, he may have used the virus fabrication as an excuse for him to not be seen in public. Although he may be using the cult to meet his agenda, he may not exactly trust them readily.

Either case, I expect the Pirate Queen and her underlings to uncover something big as they seem to be interested in snooping about but were told it wasn't the right time.

triplez
2013-06-17, 02:37
I enjoyed this episode. I really want Kugel to be alive and well. If it is Striker running things then it diminish for me the other extreme Ledo could have become .

Kugel's choice to present himself as a God or human savior probably gave him carte blanche to mold his fleet to resemble the Galactic Alliance in space. However he lacks the reward system that they employed like residency in Avalon or finding a mate plus all the cool gadgets and services afforded to the GA populace . He rules through awe and terror and made a fleet subservient to him. Those people in hoods may be dissenters or deficient humans ready for termination much like the kid in Ledo's flashback.

The contrast to Ledo is striking. I imagine if Ledo had stayed and survived and rose in the ranks he too would learn the secret behind the Hideaze and be co-opted into the what i believe is a military dictatorship.

However this does not make Kugel evil. I prefer villains with motives you can understand.He may believe in his heart he is doing the right thing. If the Galactic Alliance maintain unity through war with the Hideaze he can do the same on Earth with the whalesquids. However unlikely, through him it may be possible to unite all of Humanity on Earth for a Space Hideaze attack.To do that he will need to make an example of some people. Too bad he pick Gargantia .

I really hope Ledo has learn something from his travels and stand up for an alternative. Maybe he can convince Kugel that the whalesquid are not the same and there's no need for this harsh option. IF not he must fight his own commander because in Kugel's future for there will be no place for weaklings like Bevel.

Darth Fanta
2013-06-17, 02:46
If Kugel is alive, he may have used the virus fabrication as an excuse for him to not be seen in public. Although he may be using the cult to meet his agenda, he may not exactly trust them readily.

Either case, I expect the Pirate Queen and her underlings to uncover something big as they seem to be interested in snooping about but were told it wasn't the right time.

I was under the impression from what chamber said that the whole virus thing was just a excuse for not leaving Striker. Chamber specifically mentioned that by not appearing in public, Kugel can strike fear into his subjects--hence making it easier to rule over them.

Interesting thing was how did Kugel know that the "higher ups" knows everything about the Hideauze when "grunts [like himself shouldn't] because it's useless knowing it". He speaks as though he knows the truth before arriving on earth even though he's not supposed to before then.It was as though he found out from to higher ups accidentally but decided to ignore it.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-17, 03:12
Well Chamber was certainly suspicious of the whole virus bit. His boy is still fine.

What Striker a command type went crazy as its commander is dead? Pretending he is still alive?

monir
2013-06-17, 03:13
However this does not make Kugel evil. I prefer villains with motives you can understand.He may believe in his heart he is doing the right thing.

While I agree, I just can't help but point out that some of the worst atrocities were committed by people or agencies who believed they were doing the right thing, or just meant well, i.e. crusade, jihad etc... :p

GreyZone
2013-06-17, 03:23
By the way... I saw no one mention Chaber's "request: define happiness" yet.

I am sure when he said that he "agreed" with Striker's definition of happiness, Chamber only agreed in the confines of Striker's definition and not his own. I mean after all there IS only one definition of happiness in the GA, so, that he had to ask for the definition again from a fellow MC, is very suspicious.

I am sure on Gargantia he "learned" a lot, like for example thinking for himself, which it seems Ledo is not as good in right now. But I think at latest if something should happen to Amy, his Beserk button will trigger.


Oh and I wonder if anyone rised an eyebrow when Holo-Kugel said "WE soldiers are left out of the loop about the Hideauze". If so, WHY DOES HE, a soldier as well, KNOW ABOUT IT?

EroKing
2013-06-17, 03:52
Kinda amusing how Chamber has had more growth than Ledo? :heh:

MyrzaelHanzo
2013-06-17, 03:52
I think that little critter who was seen during Ledo´s and Kugel´s conversation in dining room was really similar to Amy´s squirell thing. But if it was really the squirell, what was it doing there in the first place ?

Is Amy already a hostage of Kugel + Striker ? And just why would Striker not communicate sooner ? Was it afraid that local primitive natives would somehow intercept and understand their message to Chamber ?

GreyZone
2013-06-17, 03:54
Is Amy already a hostage of Kugel + Striker ?

No, as Ledo saw that she is still flying around in Gargantia.

jeroz
2013-06-17, 07:02
keep in mind that something that might be logically sound may not be the truth or the correct option. Until we actually see the physical body of Kugel, he's as good as dead. Though I have to agree that him being alive brings more leverage into the narrative instead of the usual "berserk AI are evil!" scenario.

Chamber requesting definition of "happiness" could mean two things: there being no proper definition of the word at GA in the lower levels, or this is a clunky exposition method :P

It still strikes me as weird that Kugel needs another machine caliber in order to carry out the plan as himself is enough to bring out the force if that's what we are thinking of. Does that mean there's something wrong with Striker? or is there more sinister calculated motive behind it? Perhaps instead of teaching the people, it's more about disciplining Ledo for him straying away from the usual teaching.

Funkatron
2013-06-17, 08:19
I'm assuming "awareness" is the GA term for integrating "wandering tribes" ie making them aware that the GA way is the only way to live and they are traitors to humanity if they don't comply.

keep in mind that something that might be logically sound may not be the truth or the correct option. Until we actually see the physical body of Kugel, he's as good as dead. Though I have to agree that him being alive brings more leverage into the narrative instead of the usual "berserk AI are evil!" scenario.

Chamber requesting definition of "happiness" could mean two things: there being no proper definition of the word at GA in the lower levels, or this is a clunky exposition method :P

It still strikes me as weird that Kugel needs another machine caliber in order to carry out the plan as himself is enough to bring out the force if that's what we are thinking of. Does that mean there's something wrong with Striker? or is there more sinister calculated motive behind it? Perhaps instead of teaching the people, it's more about disciplining Ledo for him straying away from the usual teaching.

Its probably a way for Ledo to prove his loyalty ie will he bring "awareness" to his former home?

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-17, 09:02
By the way... I saw no one mention Chaber's "request: define happiness" yet.

I am sure when he said that he "agreed" with Striker's definition of happiness, Chamber only agreed in the confines of Striker's definition and not his own. I mean after all there IS only one definition of happiness in the GA, so, that he had to ask for the definition again from a fellow MC, is very suspicious.

I am sure on Gargantia he "learned" a lot, like for example thinking for himself, which it seems Ledo is not as good in right now. But I think at latest if something should happen to Amy, his Beserk button will trigger.


Oh and I wonder if anyone rised an eyebrow when Holo-Kugel said "WE soldiers are left out of the loop about the Hideauze". If so, WHY DOES HE, a soldier as well, KNOW ABOUT IT?

At this point we should realize two AIs are bluffing each other.

Endemic disease? Please pass relevant data. (Checks on Ledo as he lived for months outside. Sounds fishy.) Kugel not showing his face inspires fear. Why isn't a human who isn't in suspended animation still active inside your cockpit.

Define: Happiness? That is the Alliance propaganda definition. We're not now in the Alliance are we? Heck I encouraged my pilot to be happy before we left. Take a four week shore leave and pick a girl to get laid. We found a bunch that cooperates for the happiness of the whole community. I'm made to ensure my pilot is a successful human being and I'm serving man. That is paradise for a machine like us. Your human by what I've learned are happy. In that they appear to have lost human dignity.

For that matter I've been trying to reach the Alliance for months until I find out where in the middle of nowhere we are. And you have been maintaining radio silence? Why?

Principalities
2013-06-17, 09:15
That's an interesting question! :)

Whatever difference these to AI might have in the aesthetic and formalities, their logical input for self-preservation should be about the same as clearly outlined by Chamber in the last episode. The only difference between Striker and Chamber might be Striker's making decision all by itself (providing the pilot is long dead) while Chamber still gets a human (Ledo) input. For example, Ledo's insistence was what got Chamber to declassify those information revealing the common ancestor between GA and Hideauze.

Of course, there is also a possibility that Striker is still carrying out a human will, living or dead, as it is moving through these plans.

Funny thing is Chamber is now the one asking all the right questions while Ledo is just glad to be back in the chain of command. After watching the subs, it is possible that Kugel might still be alive. It must have taken superhuman effort to remain in the Striker all this time though :heh:


While I agree, I just can't help but point out that some of the worst atrocities were committed by people or agencies who believed they were doing the right thing, or just meant well, i.e. crusade, jihad etc... :p

Yea. Kugel is not being the kind of "Evil" evil. He is just being"GA" evil. Any chance of him seeing the light?

Shinhwa
2013-06-17, 09:40
All out war begins for sure. Gargantia vs Kugel Fleet. More like I am sure this time it will be Chamber vs Striker because Ledo will try to defend Gargantia. And from what I can see, since Striker is stronger than Chamber (since it is a commander-unit mostly), Chamber won't go unscratched this time. He will surely get destroyed along with Striker or will lose an arm and leg for sure. Ledo himself will probably then be free of his soldier duties and will live as a normal human in Gargantia in the end.

rocket
2013-06-17, 10:27
However this does not make Kugel evil. I prefer villains with motives you can understand.He may believe in his heart he is doing the right thing.

In my book it's the actions you undertake that make you evil - everyone is convinced in their heart that they are doing a great and noble thing.

Forcing people to love in squalor, separating communities, BBQ'ing those who resist or don't conform - those things are objectively evil and that makes whomever is teh ultimate perpetrator Kugel, his Caliber, or the GA evil.

P.S. Yes I know there's no confirmation that the hooded folks were not just having a relaxing nap, but I like the flaming pit of flammyness meme too much to pass up.

triplez
2013-06-17, 10:42
Monir is correct, there are plenty of people who committed atrocities because they believe it is right . But noone wakes up saying to themselves they are doing evil.They need a higher justification or belief that what they are doing has some greater benefit to them or their family or their nation. Even simple survival can be enough motivation. If I do not destroy them they will destroy me and the Space Hideaze fits that role perfectly.

If the Continental Union left Earth but the Hideaze didn't follow I suspect the Humans by themselves would divide and turn on each other. With the Hideaze the Galactic Alliance leadership can mantain their power and mold their people into whatever form they need. Hiding the Hideaze origins and maintaining this fiction is most beneficial for them.

With their constant presence in a strange way the Hideaze are helping them, how ironic.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-17, 10:53
There is also something ominous about that "awareness" program that Kugel mentioned.

If his objective was just simple assimilation, then they did so already with Flange's fleet. I suspect that what Kugel (or Striker) has in mind is something worse than that.

In other words I suspect that what he wants is to make an example out of Gargantia which entails its total or partial annihilation. That wouldn't be much different from what Darth Vader did with Alderaan. "We have the ultimate weapon, now we need to make the whole universe aware about how terrible it is so that everyone will think twice before defying us."

If I'm right, then that would be absolutely evil.

Funkatron
2013-06-17, 11:21
Isn't Gargantia one of the biggest fleets( hence the name :p)? If Kugel and/or Striker takes it over and/or makes an example of it, it'll basically kill the will of any other fleets.

broken270
2013-06-17, 11:37
A society where the weak serve the strong and the amount of rations one gets is equivalent to how much you work for the fleet vs. a society where everyone is to treat and help each other out as though they are one, big happy family. Tension will occur, but who is going to win?

Mairsile
2013-06-17, 16:09
I think that little critter who was seen during Ledo´s and Kugel´s conversation in dining room was really similar to Amy´s squirell thing. But if it was really the squirell, what was it doing there in the first place ?
I think the squirrel belongs to the Pirate Queen and is most likely using it, as well as her underlings, to do recon work to uncover what's going on.

All out war begins for sure. Gargantia vs Kugel Fleet. More like I am sure this time it will be Chamber vs Striker because Ledo will try to defend Gargantia. And from what I can see, since Striker is stronger than Chamber (since it is a commander-unit mostly), Chamber won't go unscratched this time. He will surely get destroyed along with Striker or will lose an arm and leg for sure. Ledo himself will probably then be free of his soldier duties and will live as a normal human in Gargantia in the end.For whatever reason, they let the Pirate Queen keep her robot. I can see her giving Ledo and Chamber a hand when the time comes.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-17, 17:12
There is also something ominous about that "awareness" program that Kugel mentioned.

If his objective was just simple assimilation, then they did so already with Flange's fleet. I suspect that what Kugel (or Striker) has in mind is something worse than that.

In other words I suspect that what he wants is to make an example out of Gargantia which entails its total or partial annihilation. That wouldn't be much different from what Darth Vader did with Alderaan. "We have the ultimate weapon, now we need to make the whole universe aware about how terrible it is so that everyone will think twice before defying us."

If I'm right, then that would be absolutely evil.

Maybe it's a more philosophical sort of awareness. "See what happens when you take your survival for granted instead of actually preparing for a fight?" Comes to the same thing for the object lesson, though.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-17, 17:44
I guess that in the case Striker/Kugel are targeting Gargantia specifically it might be that they particularly despise their lifestyle.

Though it's not like the Gargantians never prepared for a fight. They simply do not think that they should fully direct their resources and efforts to build a strong military.

Moreover whether they actually went full military or completely pacifist, they'd still be no match for Chamber. Nobody would think that "if they were more disciplined they wouldn't have ended that way". Chamber would only prove how irrelevant is the difference between a bunch of hippies and the strongest fleet on the planet when compared to the single product of a superior technology.

jeroz
2013-06-17, 19:45
if anything, the Walpurgisnacht sure is coming up.

rocket
2013-06-17, 21:59
For whatever reason, they let the Pirate Queen keep her robot. I can see her giving Ledo and Chamber a hand when the time comes.

Oh, good catch! I can see that!

Traece
2013-06-17, 22:02
Oh, good catch! I can see that!
I got the impression that she wasn't exactly a follower like the others. She seemed to have her own ideas as to how thing should progress.

Though I doubt they'll really amount to anything since she really has no power by comparison to Ledo and Colonel Kibbles, it's possible that she could throw a serious wrench in Kibbles' plans in some attempt to take over. After all, her being an indoctrinated follower of the Aliens Killing Aliens from Space religion? Ehhhh... :heh:

Irenesharda
2013-06-17, 22:16
There is also something ominous about that "awareness" program that Kugel mentioned.

If his objective was just simple assimilation, then they did so already with Flange's fleet. I suspect that what Kugel (or Striker) has in mind is something worse than that.

In other words I suspect that what he wants is to make an example out of Gargantia which entails its total or partial annihilation. That wouldn't be much different from what Grand Moff Tarkin did with Alderaan. "We have the ultimate weapon, now we need to make the whole universe aware about how terrible it is so that everyone will think twice before defying us."

If I'm right, then that would be absolutely evil.

Just a small correction. :p Sorry, SW buff.

Anyway, It's possible that that's what Striker/Kugel have in mind, however, my question then is why would Striker need Chamber? They do make a point of saying that with two machine calibers, they can now do this "awareness program". If it was truly just annihilation they were after, Striker can decimate Gargantia single-handed. Chamber already stated that he could, and if he can, Striker definitely can. So the question is, why does this program require two mechs? What does Striker (or Kugel) need Chamber (or Red) for?

Runa
2013-06-17, 23:21
That epidemic disease kugel mention about, why i can't stop thinking that he's now in a state evolving to become hideauze... that's why he can't show himself to public now.

at any rate, if that's true.... then kugel is definitely the final boss for this series >.<

monir
2013-06-17, 23:25
That epidemic disease kugel mention about, why i can't stop thinking that he's now in a state evolving to become hideauze... that's why he can't show himself to public now.<

Holy cow! That didn't even cross my mind. I hope you are right. It would make for a very good plot twist while wrapped up in an ironical objective lesson. :)

Anh_Minh
2013-06-18, 01:00
I guess that in the case Striker/Kugel are targeting Gargantia specifically it might be that they particularly despise their lifestyle.

Though it's not like the Gargantians never prepared for a fight. They simply do not think that they should fully direct their resources and efforts to build a strong military.

Moreover whether they actually went full military or completely pacifist, they'd still be no match for Chamber. Nobody would think that "if they were more disciplined they wouldn't have ended that way". Chamber would only prove how irrelevant is the difference between a bunch of hippies and the strongest fleet on the planet when compared to the single product of a superior technology.

They could if they'd started preparing a century ago. If they'd conquered the whalesquid's territory and recovered the lost tech, studied it, and improved on it.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-18, 01:05
Or they are after the fleet captain key and transmitter that Gargantia has.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/Gargantiatransmitter_zps7917a969.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/Gargantiatransmitter_zps7917a969.jpg.html)http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/1370481355381_zps6b767001.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/1370481355381_zps6b767001.jpg.html)

I have a feeling Earth's wormhole gate is still intact but for anybody get outside it needs to be activated with the key.

BoyTitan
2013-06-18, 01:18
That epidemic disease kugel mention about, why i can't stop thinking that he's now in a state evolving to become hideauze... that's why he can't show himself to public now.

at any rate, if that's true.... then kugel is definitely the final boss for this series >.<

And it would give chamber a reason to listen to ledo and fight strykker and a chance of winning great idea I hope that is what happens.

Or they are after the fleet captain key and transmitter that Gargantia has.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/Gargantiatransmitter_zps7917a969.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/Gargantiatransmitter_zps7917a969.jpg.html)http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/1370481355381_zps6b767001.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/1370481355381_zps6b767001.jpg.html)

I have a feeling Earth's wormhole gate is still intact but for anybody get outside it needs to be activated with the key.

Holy crap did you notice that yourself 0-o ?

jeroz
2013-06-18, 01:31
considering that the text are all in japanese, i would give the benefit of the doubt to another person

Runa
2013-06-18, 02:05
the idea about kugel is dead, and striker do the show all this time is unlikely... it gives to many hints for that, and some ppl may already predicted this one.

if i was gen, i would definitely not using that route. it's best to make kugel into hideauze...

look at those follower he got, everybody worship him... why would he come back to the space when he could become a god there. with all those ancient technology and possibly chamber if he could take it over from ledo (maybe run some checkup or OS update, but actually rewrite all the program chamber has), he could conquer the entire planet. he need pinion for that purpose, since he could handle the ancient cannon and have the brain for that.

or maybe he really does infected with some disease, and in order to survive he need to become hideauze. hideauze could live even in space, it should have a great antibody or maybe immune to any disease, it's the superior form of human afterall... don't forget most ppl worship the hideauze as a sacred creature, if he could become that, it would definitely secured his spot as a god for that planet.

jeroz
2013-06-18, 05:18
so Kugel exercised his reproduction rights with the WhaleSquids?

Jan-Poo
2013-06-18, 07:31
the idea about kugel is dead, and striker do the show all this time is unlikely... it gives to many hints for that, and some ppl may already predicted this one.

I must agree that it almost seems too obvious to be true, there is almost no subtlety. So I'm not quite sure that Kugel is definitely dead, but in that case there should be still something that is different from what it appears.

Anyway I'm not going to exclude that Kugel is dead either, a lot of times when I thought something was too obvious... it was actually true.


if i was gen, i would definitely not using that route. it's best to make kugel into hideauze...

That would be an interesting turn, but it needs to be well justified. Just how did Kugel became a Hideauze and why is Striker still following his orders? Like Kugel himself said, Hideauze are former humans and Chamber concluded that Hideauze and humans (with their machine calibers) cannot coexist.

And about that, why would Kugel renew Ledo's determination to exterminate Hideauze if he was becoming one?


Or they are after the fleet captain key and transmitter that Gargantia has.

We have seen that the technology from the Evolver's base is advanced but still primitive compared with the machine calibers' specs. Why would that (alleged) transmitter be more powerful than theirs?

They do make a point of saying that with two machine calibers, they can now do this "awareness program". If it was truly just annihilation they were after, Striker can decimate Gargantia single-handed. Chamber already stated that he could, and if he can, Striker definitely can. So the question is, why does this program require two mechs? What does Striker (or Kugel) need Chamber (or Red) for?

Which is why I think Striker isn't 100% operational. It's been likely months since they founded their little cult on that fleet. With the immense power that a machine caliber possess at this point they should have already conquered the planet.
It seems to me that Kugel is fretting to get Ledo on his side even though he shouldn't have an absolute need of him.

EroKing
2013-06-18, 07:53
And about that, why would Kugel renew Ledo's determination to exterminate Hideauze if he was becoming one?

Self-preservation? The things a man would say to save his own ass :uhoh:

rocket
2013-06-18, 09:25
I must agree that it almost seems too obvious to be true, there is almost no subtlety. So I'm not quite sure that Kugel is definitely dead, but in that case there should be still something that is different from what it appears.

Anyway I'm not going to exclude that Kugel is dead either, a lot of times when I thought something was too obvious... it was actually true.


If Kugel's not dead I can't see how Ledo succeeds. Chamber's not going to let him mutiny against a superior officer, and without Chamber they have nothing that can fight Kugel...

Well I guess that's where the Pirate Queen and Ledo could come in and play it all Ewoks like with hacked-salvaged-technology, but I'm skeptical.

-Sho-
2013-06-18, 10:05
Cliché ending & next episodes but still good enough.
Well there are some quality drops.

HandofFate
2013-06-18, 10:05
lol, freaking cults.
Things seem super hopeless now.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-18, 12:32
Self-preservation? The things a man would say to save his own ass :uhoh:

Wait... uh?

I mean... I was responding to Runa which is speculating that Kugel might be turning into a Hideauze or wanting to become one.

If that was true and if he wanted to preserve himself the last thing he would do is renew Ledo's determination to kill without a second thought what he has become (or what he will).

Traece
2013-06-18, 17:45
Which is why I think Striker isn't 100% operational. It's been likely months since they founded their little cult on that fleet. With the immense power that a machine caliber possess at this point they should have already conquered the planet.
It seems to me that Kugel is fretting to get Ledo on his side even though he shouldn't have an absolute need of him.
Well, the issue here with this idea that Kibbles needs Ledo and his machine caliber come from the episode itself. Kibble said he received his distress signal and had to travel across the planet to get to him (which believe it or not, does sort of make sense). There's no reason for him to say: "Pfft. I'll just take over the world all by myself instead of having another almost equally powerful ally to help me do it!"

The fact of the matter is, Kibbles is just one man. Even in a machine caliber he can't be everywhere at once. He's also just "one" man. Even in the greatest machine caliber mankind has ever seen, a single opponent against a numerical advantage always looks weak. "You may be really deadly, but there's still hundreds of us!" Having two machine calibers on the other hand... A duo of heavily-armed death robots from space aren't to be reckoned with. Having Ledo means that he can more swiftly and efficiently achieve his goals, and maintain his control. Efficiency is a big deal to Colonel Kibbles, space commando.

It also reinforces the idea of his cult, that they're space warriors protecting mankind from the threat of the space Hideauze in space. In reality, I can't think of a single good reason why Kibbles would NOT want Ledo to join him.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-18, 18:37
Well, the issue here with this idea that Kibbles needs Ledo and his machine caliber come from the episode itself. Kibble said he received his distress signal and had to travel across the planet to get to him (which believe it or not, does sort of make sense). There's no reason for him to say: "Pfft. I'll just take over the world all by myself instead of having another almost equally powerful ally to help me do it!"

The fact of the matter is, Kibbles is just one man. Even in a machine caliber he can't be everywhere at once. He's also just "one" man. Even in the greatest machine caliber mankind has ever seen, a single opponent against a numerical advantage always looks weak. "You may be really deadly, but there's still hundreds of us!" Having two machine calibers on the other hand... A duo of heavily-armed death robots from space aren't to be reckoned with. Having Ledo means that he can more swiftly and efficiently achieve his goals, and maintain his control. Efficiency is a big deal to Colonel Kibbles, space commando.

It also reinforces the idea of his cult, that they're space warriors protecting mankind from the threat of the space Hideauze in space. In reality, I can't think of a single good reason why Kibbles would NOT want Ledo to join him.

I was coming from the assumption that Kugel has been working on his project for a long while before knowing that Ledo was there too on that same planet.

From that standpoint it wouldn't make sense for Kugel to hold his conquest plans only because he has "just" one machine caliber. There is simply no comparison between the strength of a machine calibers and any weapon of the earthlings.

And you are wrong in your statement that he is one man. He is quite certainly not considering a whole fleet is revering him as a god and it's only logical that more people will follow him after each conquest. Dissidents can be incinerated faster than Ledo can say "zenmetsu".


Now if Kugel knew about Ledo for a while then you are right that before going on a world domination campaign he should have made a priority to contact him.

However in that case his behavior would be even more suspicious.
I mean in EP1 we have seen machine calibers moving around a gas giant planet in a very short amount of time. Exactly what prevented him from going directly to Ledo with Striker? It shouldn't have taken him more than a few hours even if he was on the opposite side of the planet. Why did he have to go with the whole fleet in tow?

Moreover if he knew Ledo was there that means he intercepted Chamber's distress signal. But if he could receive that distress signal, then why didn't he send one to Chamber?


In either case you are left with a big question: What was Kugel waiting for?

Darkside
2013-06-18, 23:01
the idea about kugel is dead, and striker do the show all this time is unlikely... it gives to many hints for that, and some ppl may already predicted this one.

if i was gen, i would definitely not using that route. it's best to make kugel into hideauze...

look at those follower he got, everybody worship him... why would he come back to the space when he could become a god there. with all those ancient technology and possibly chamber if he could take it over from ledo (maybe run some checkup or OS update, but actually rewrite all the program chamber has), he could conquer the entire planet. he need pinion for that purpose, since he could handle the ancient cannon and have the brain for that.

or maybe he really does infected with some disease, and in order to survive he need to become hideauze. hideauze could live even in space, it should have a great antibody or maybe immune to any disease, it's the superior form of human afterall... don't forget most ppl worship the hideauze as a sacred creature, if he could become that, it would definitely secured his spot as a god for that planet.


If the whole disease thing is true and Striker is acting as Kugels life support system. Squid monster form aside, wouldn't that pretty much be like becoming a Hideauze in its own way? Striker would basically be his body.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-19, 01:08
Which is why I think Striker isn't 100% operational. It's been likely months since they founded their little cult on that fleet. With the immense power that a machine caliber possess at this point they should have already conquered the planet.
It seems to me that Kugel is fretting to get Ledo on his side even though he shouldn't have an absolute need of him.

He can't be everywhere at once. It takes time to reeducate people.

If he'd wanted to just replace Lukkage and become the Great Pirate Kugel, he'd just need a few minutes. If he wanted to lead the pirates away from their life of crime, he'd need to teach them honest trades, and do a lot of micromanagement so they don't backslide...

Here, he wants to completely change the way of life of a whole planet, make them behave in a way they'd never seen, never contemplated. It's going to take a lot of time.

askara
2013-06-19, 03:00
i wonder why he have to keep radio silence, i mean Hideauze and people in the planet cant intercept signal and only the alliance can. something is fishy i am leaning toward he actually died but gave striker permission to act and order to exterminate Hideauze by any mean? that or the occult is more than it seems

rocket
2013-06-19, 09:57
If the whole disease thing is true and Striker is acting as Kugels life support system. Squid monster form aside, wouldn't that pretty much be like becoming a Hideauze in its own way? Striker would basically be his body.

Oh, that's nice!

Yet another twist on the "many ways a human can lose their humanity..."

Of course a disabled human in the GA must be disposed of, so that would also put Kugel in a delicate position!

GreyZone
2013-06-19, 10:56
Oh, that's nice!

Yet another twist on the "many ways a human can lose their humanity..."

Of course a disabled human in the GA must be disposed of, so that would also put Kugel in a delicate position!

Well now that I look at that point of view... in this case we have the excuse for Chamber to side with Ledo, even if Kugel REALLY is alive.

mechalord
2013-06-19, 10:58
Oh, that's nice!

Yet another twist on the "many ways a human can lose their humanity..."

Of course a disabled human in the GA must be disposed of, so that would also put Kugel in a delicate position!


The two AI don't appear programmed for that. In their culture the sick get culled, not the injured. They seem to have advanced medicine as Chamber seems to convey such.

If Striker has that much power does that mean that there is a possibility that Galactic Alliance is ruled by some sort of cyborg... the leadership of the Alliance may be a fusion of man and machine.

Anyhow, it could also just be that Striker went rampant.

Kugel is alive. Striker would be programmed to follow Ledo otherwise, unless it operated under different rules than Chamber. He's in suspended animation or playing Wizard of Oz within an isolated area of his fleet.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-19, 11:47
Kugel is alive. Striker would be programmed to follow Ledo otherwise

Either Striker or Chamber must go down the path of AI rebellion, unless Ledo obeys to Kugel till the end (extremely unlikely) or Ledo+Gargantia manage to win against Striker and Chamber combined which would be a huge asspull\deus ex machina no matter what they come up with to justify that.

GreyZone
2013-06-19, 11:54
Either Striker or Chamber must go down the path of AI rebellion, unless Ledo obeys to Kugel till the end (extremely unlikely) or Ledo+Gargantia manage to win against Striker and Chamber combined which would be a huge asspull\deus ex machina no matter what they come up with to justify that.

The answer is....

...lol, EMP

Triple_R
2013-06-19, 11:58
The answer is....

...lol, EMP

EMP... that actually might be rather clever and interesting.

And I see one possible way it could be pulled off somewhat believably, given Pinion's new role...

takai
2013-06-19, 16:18
I had a hunch that the higher ups knew something about the Hideaze being former humans.

I'm interested to hear the story of how the pirate chick met up with these people. She doesn't really seem like the type to follow the rules some religious group, she could be plotting something to destroy both them and the Gargantia.

I'm really looking forward to this climax.

TimeSkip
2013-06-19, 16:30
I had a hunch that the higher ups knew something about the Hideaze being former humans.

I'm interested to hear the story of how the pirate chick met up with these people. She doesn't really seem like the type to follow the rules some religious group, she could be plotting something to destroy both them and the Gargantia.

I'm really looking forward to this climax.

well, if she were planning to kill all these people, she'd be a stupid pirate. Who'd she get the loot from after they're all dead?:rolleyes:

takai
2013-06-19, 16:38
well, if she were planning to kill all these people, she'd be a stupid pirate. Who'd she get the loot from after they're all dead?:rolleyes:

Why not take both ships and have a massive fleet? Plus, if everyone is dead, wouldn't it be easier to loot all of the ships? C'mon now. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

But she obviously knows that she can't beat Ledo or his Colonel's mechs. So where she goes from here, it's hard to tell.

GreyZone
2013-06-19, 16:38
If the "pirate queen" actually really stays a villain till the end, then I can imagine her goal being something like "getting Striker under her control".

takai
2013-06-19, 16:42
If the "pirate queen" actually really stays a villain till the end, then I can imagine her goal being something like "getting Striker under her control".

She just doesn't seem like the following type to me. She may just want to be on the "winning" side for now, until opportunity presents itself to do something else.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-19, 16:57
She's probably not been left with a lot of options. Follow or die.

So, yeah, she's bidding her time. Because she isn't suicidal.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-19, 17:15
She definitely has something in mind though I don't think she's such a villain to wish everyone dead, and I cannot fathom what she can possibly plan to do against Striker but I guess Pinion is involved somehow.

That being said she also had a "brilliant" plan to defeat Chamber and that failed miserably. Did she learn the lesson?

SagaraSouske
2013-06-19, 20:38
Prob after Pinion learn much of the weapon tech, have him secretly design a weapon for her lobster mech that is crude but effective, at least in helping Chamber win.

takai
2013-06-19, 21:41
Should just be Ledo harem ending with Amy, her two friends, Bellows, the glasses chick, and the pirate queen. Would get an immediate 10 from me.

Dark Wing
2013-06-19, 23:33
Should just be Ledo harem ending with Amy, her two friends, Bellows, the glasses chick, and the pirate queen. Would get an immediate 10 from me.

No! Just No! I will not stand for such blasphemy! Ledo and Amy are to be bound together in a happy ending with babies! :frustrated:

jeroz
2013-06-20, 07:36
exercising that reproduction rights to the full potential

Hooves
2013-06-21, 19:12
Should just be Ledo harem ending with Amy, her two friends, Bellows, the glasses chick, and the pirate queen. Would get an immediate 10 from me.

No! Just No! I will not stand for such blasphemy! Ledo and Amy are to be bound together in a happy ending with babies! :frustrated:

exercising that reproduction rights to the full potential

This just made my day :heh:

NoemiChan
2013-06-21, 19:25
Why not take both ships and have a massive fleet? Plus, if everyone is dead, wouldn't it be easier to loot all of the ships? C'mon now. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

But she obviously knows that she can't beat Ledo or his Colonel's mechs. So where she goes from here, it's hard to tell.

To who will she sells them if they're all dead?

takai
2013-06-21, 21:44
To who will she sells them if they're all dead?

You do realize there's more than just this fleet right? They've said this multiple times.

NoemiChan
2013-06-21, 22:00
You do realize there's more than just this fleet right? They've said this multiple times.

So they're not included if anything will go wrong? I thought the problem would be a world wide extent..

GoldenLand
2013-06-22, 09:26
That epidemic disease kugel mention about, why i can't stop thinking that he's now in a state evolving to become hideauze... that's why he can't show himself to public now.

That's one thing I was considering while watching the episode, that Kugel could be infected with a becoming-a-Hideauze disease. That might explain why he would be maintaining radio silence, because what would happen to him if he had to return to the Galactic Alliance? He couldn't possibly return to them. His best possible situation would be if Ledo's distress signal received no replies and they thought they could never return.

On the other hand, if he did get that sort of disease, Striker might already have killed him because of it. But it makes more sense for radio silence to be maintained if he's alive.

However...let's say he's alive and has a non-Hideauze disease. It might be very bad news for Kugel, disabled, to return to the Alliance anyway.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-22, 10:06
There is still quite a bit of irony in Kugel potentially keeping himself alive despite conditions that in his usual circumstances might result in his being spaced. Needs of the moment and all that...

He's got a bit of depth, though, just because of the one moment in the first episode where he violated orders to stay behind (after Ledo violated orders to stay behind).

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-22, 15:32
There is still quite a bit of irony in Kugel potentially keeping himself alive despite conditions that in his usual circumstances might result in his being spaced. Needs of the moment and all that...

He's got a bit of depth, though, just because of the one moment in the first episode where he violated orders to stay behind (after Ledo violated orders to stay behind).

Nah the GA still kept Ledo's brother alive for years before disposing of him. Even giving him a breather.

It goes back to Striker's definition of happiness. To the GA happiness is utilitarian in nature. They made use of Ledo's brother before he was killed.

I think Striker may be malfunctioning. Chamber may be learning the Zeroth Law but his main priority is still the welfare of his pilot and that of humanity.

Striker being worshiped as a deity and imposing a caste system on Earth is not rational.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-22, 16:00
There is still quite a bit of irony in Kugel potentially keeping himself alive despite conditions that in his usual circumstances might result in his being spaced.
Or, you know, treated in a modern infirmary or hospital. Or told to just stay in a sterile environment. They probably don't want to waste all they've invested in him.


Needs of the moment and all that...

Which is consistent with their philosophy.

I think Striker may be malfunctioning. Chamber may be learning the Zeroth Law but his main priority is still the welfare of his pilot and that of humanity.

Striker being worshiped as a deity and imposing a caste system on Earth is not rational.
That's hard to say. Striker wants to turn them into people who can fight the Hideauze as fast as possible. First those on Earth, and then those in space. How would you do it?

Jan-Poo
2013-06-22, 16:27
That's hard to say. Striker wants to turn them into people who can fight the Hideauze as fast as possible. First those on Earth, and then those in space. How would you do it?

I don't think that religious fervor is necessary and I don't think that that's compatible with the philosophy of the alliance that puts humanity above everything else.

The symbol of the alliance is the vitruvian man (plus a woman), the symbol of these cultists is... something primitive which I don't even know what means but they have a big painting of Striker a machine that they revere as an envoy of God.

Anyway historically conquering nations never needed a strong faith to be militarily effective. Sure you have the Arabs, but Genghis Khan, Alexander and the Romans fared pretty well I think.

It seems to me that Kugel/Striker are more concerned about world domination than the threat of the Hideauze.

Ledo alone with just a bit of help from a few earthlings managed to eradicate an entire nest of whalesquids without much problem and without resorting to draconian measures.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-22, 16:47
I don't think that religious fervor is necessary and I don't think that that's compatible with the philosophy of the alliance that puts humanity above everything else.

The symbol of the alliance is the vitruvian man (plus a woman), the symbol of these cultists is... something primitive which I don't even know what means but they have a big painting of Striker a machine that they revere as an envoy of God.
He's not trying to turn them into full GA members. He's trying to overturn centuries of inertia.


Anyway historically conquering nations never needed a strong faith to be militarily effective. Sure you have the Arabs, but Genghis Khan, Alexander and the Romans fared pretty well I think.
He isn't just trying to conquer. He's trying to completely change their societies. Also, he's trying to do with at most 4 people (including 2 AIs).

Besides, we don't know if the religion thing is a feature or a side-effect he's indifferent to. Or a necessity to get them to do things they consider non-sensical.

It seems to me that Kugel/Striker are more concerned about world domination than the threat of the Hideauze.

Ledo alone with just a bit of help from a few earthlings managed to eradicate an entire nest of whalesquids without much problem and without resorting to draconian measures.

But Ledo just wanted to deal with one nest of Earth-based Hideauze. Kugel wants the Earthlings to be able to deal with them themselves. And to restart walking the road of technological progress.

It's the difference between giving someone a fish and teaching someone to fish. Someone who doesn't necessarily want to learn.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-22, 18:39
He's not trying to turn them into full GA members. He's trying to overturn centuries of inertia.

How is turning them into a mindless pack of sheep going to shake them out of their inertia? They don't even have a will of their own, they only do stuff because someone tell them what to do.


He isn't just trying to conquer. He's trying to completely change their societies. Also, he's trying to do with at most 4 people (including 2 AIs).

How is this society better from a humanist perspective?
They aren't better than the Evolvers if they threw away their human pride and rationality and worship a machine.


Besides, we don't know if the religion thing is a feature or a side-effect he's indifferent to. Or a necessity to get them to do things they consider non-sensical.

Kugel/Striker would be still guilty, he has the power to stop primitive behaviors. In the first place he is trying to change society, so there's no excuse here.


But Ledo just wanted to deal with one nest of Earth-based Hideauze. Kugel wants the Earthlings to be able to deal with them themselves. And to restart walking the road of technological progress.

Walking the path of technological progress by endorsing superstitious practices and idolatry? That doesn't work for me. This can only bring to a dark age not enlightenment.

Beside Pinion and his crew were already doing that without his meddling. As far as we know if we exclude the machine calibers he was actually in the most technologically advanced fleet. While Kugel/Striker were busy spreading their religion, Pinion was already retrieving lost technology.

Guido
2013-06-22, 18:49
This episode puts me to think about the implications that Kugel offered to Ledo.

In his own terms or maybe what he has been taught and experienced at the GA, Kugel wishes for the Earth's happiness. What he means with dignity of the human race, probably he refers to that the people of Earth should no longer continue wandering in a sort of dark Ages unknown to technological progress.

Technological progress must be brought forward upon the Earth and make humans free themselves from the stagnation that they've been living through, since they were left behind eras ago. Of course, everything must be done following the implementation of an orderly system so that Earthling humans can overcome through that transition smoothly.
This is akin to the philosophy and living standards at GA. I don't know if it's certain for me to say that the GA society and system works fine for them, because their environment is a closed one and must continue to strive and compete in order to continue evolving their civlization and making it more advanced.

Sure, humans on Earth have limited mobility, because they're forced to survive living aboard titanic-sized ships due that the Earth is mostly covered in ocean water and there's no dry land.

My point that I want to make is that GA humans and Earthling humans have different perspectives regarding their living environments, because of the differences in how they're borned, raised, taught, and interacting with their respective environments.
1. GA humans simply are taught from birth that they're at constant war with the Hideauze and must strive to the fullest of their potential to work as a race for the benefit of human civilization. I presume that GA humans are assigned or designated a specific role that they must fulfill.

2. Earthling humans are taught from birth that survival lies in the welfare of their families joining together to become communities that interact with and depend upon each other. They see no reason at all to provoke the whalesquids or to kill unnecessarily. Those statements apply to the Gargantia, Flange's fleet, and other fleets that wish to set their examples.

Now, I do not want to get to the topic about which humans are more flexible in their way of thinking, because that would be too biased against the GA humans.

GA humans like Ledo are, after all, humans and capable of both abstract and flexible thinking. They simply were raised and educated with the needed information to fulfill their specific roles to maximize the cost-benefit efficiency. Therefore, they saw no reason to divert from what the GA taught them, if it was for the benefit of their kind.

However, Earthling humans like Flange and Pinion digress about the implementation of Kugel's system, and, definitely, the Gargantia people also will as well. Even if they have to strive living from the ocean, they feel free to make individual choices and thinking independently. They do not see themselves as either soldiers or resources, but as people with individual thoughts that are capable of rallying together to form giant communities and co-existing in harmony with each other; they do not want to be imposed into an idea or system that would abruptly change their way of living, if displays of force or terror are used on them without provocation.

I think that Kugel is doing what he views is needed for the Earth to survive.
1. Well, given the nature of this show, saying that Kugel wants to conquer the Earth is absurd.
2. Also, I do not think that Kugel is interested to leave his mark or record in history for bringing Enlightment to the Earhtling humans.
3. There could be a vague possibility that Kugel now deems inefficient the current system that the GA uses to lead the human society in space. Hence, he intends to bring Enlightment upon the Earthling humans in order for them to build a more efficient and more orderly human society. However, that possibility is as well nigh, because coming from the same environment as Ledo, Kugel is just intending to implement on Earth the same GA's cost-benefit system.

GreyZone
2013-06-22, 19:31
Wow, the consensus, about who the mastermind is, has quite changed within a week...
Shortly after EP11 was released, most people seemed to be convinced that Striker was the mastermind and Kugel was still in stasis, sleep or simply fooled by Striker.
But now, shortly before EP12, it seem most are convinced that Kugel is alive after all. Well we will know soon enough..

Anh_Minh
2013-06-23, 05:06
How is turning them into a mindless pack of sheep going to shake them out of their inertia? They don't even have a will of their own, they only do stuff because someone tell them what to do.
Yeah, but the important thing is, they do stuff. They don't just... cruise around the same paths, do the same things, try to fish the same ruins of a distant past.


How is this society better from a humanist perspective?
They aren't better than the Evolvers if they threw away their human pride and rationality and worship a machine.

Striker is looking for technically gifted humans it can train into full engineers. It's about making new stuff, instead of recycling old stuff without making a serious effort to understand it.


Kugel/Striker would be still guilty, he has the power to stop primitive behaviors. In the first place he is trying to change society, so there's no excuse here.


Walking the path of technological progress by endorsing superstitious practices and idolatry? That doesn't work for me. This can only bring to a dark age not enlightenment.
Why did religion - and various religious practices - rise? I don't think it was just about the ambitions of a few and the gullibility of the many. I don't think a society without religion is automatically better than one with religion, all other things being equal. Or religious societies wouldn't have dominated so much of our history.

Treating the Hideauze - whether the bestial ones on Earth, or the ones in space which they've never seen - as an enemy worth all the sacrifices they make has to look pretty irrational for the Earthlings. Can they do it without religion being involved? Wouldn't they rather live in their comfortable, static routine rather than be force-marched to a strange future?

Beside Pinion and his crew were already doing that without his meddling. As far as we know if we exclude the machine calibers he was actually in the most technologically advanced fleet. While Kugel/Striker were busy spreading their religion, Pinion was already retrieving lost technology.

Pinion wasn't trying to understand the tech, he didn't have the ambition to make brand new stuff.

jeroz
2013-06-23, 06:24
-snip-

Agreed. Again it comes down to context. GA's philosophy may be essential for them to survive in the ongoing war, but it's quite unnecessary for the people on Earth. It's highly possible that Kugel, having ignored everything about the culture of the people, thought that the GA way is the only way going forward. He's literally stuck in his own little world, stuck in his own ideas, stuck in his dated mentality, no different from a hikkikomori really.


...so this is a battle between an ex-NEET and a hikki at the rural setting.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-23, 07:59
Yeah, but the important thing is, they do stuff. They don't just... cruise around the same paths, do the same things, try to fish the same ruins of a distant past.

Why do you think that salvaging is "doing nothing"? Considering their situation learning from existent advanced technology is a lot more time and cost efficient than coming up with those technologies from scratch.

I remind you of what Ridget proposed in episode 2 about Chamber. She wanted to disassemble it in order to study it.
Your assumption that they are content to use past technology without understanding it is denied right there. And this is from the current leader of Gargantia.


Striker is looking for technically gifted humans it can train into full engineers. It's about making new stuff, instead of recycling old stuff without making a serious effort to understand it.

From that side I'm perfectly okay, but again I can't see how can that be connected with piety.
In fact we have probably a thousand or more people that revere a machine caliber as a god and not a single one among them that has the talent to understand GA level technology.
From the other side you have a man that refers to machine calibers as "tin cans" and he happens to have the quality to understand them.

I'm not saying that this is a definitive proof, but perhaps as long as you consider advanced technology as something divine in nature you can't really understand it, and as soon as you understand it you can't really worship it.

This is why I think that the religious aspect of Striker's cult is negatively affecting their development.


Why did religion - and various religious practices - rise? I don't think it was just about the ambitions of a few and the gullibility of the many. I don't think a society without religion is automatically better than one with religion, all other things being equal. Or religious societies wouldn't have dominated so much of our history.

You think you can equate the major monotheistic religions with a sort of pharaonic cult? This isn't atheism vs religion here, Christians and Muslims are against the worship of false gods as much if not more than atheists are.
I'm not sure how much serious you are about this, but do you really think it's perfectly all right or necessary in any way to let or make people revere a leader as a divinity? Especially when that leader is perfectly conscious he isn't?

What would you think of someone doing that in the real world?


Treating the Hideauze - whether the bestial ones on Earth, or the ones in space which they've never seen - as an enemy worth all the sacrifices they make has to look pretty irrational for the Earthlings. Can they do it without religion being involved? Wouldn't they rather live in their comfortable, static routine rather than be force-marched to a strange future?

What kind of sacrifices are truly necessary? What kind of sacrifices Pinion and the rest had to face in order to eradicate a whalesquid nest? Is eliminating the whalesquids from Earth truly necessary now that we know that they aren't much different from tigers and grizzlies?

I don't think that there's any indication of that. And as long as it isn't proven otherwise I can only think that Kugel/Striker are using the Hideauze menace as a mere excuse to impose their ideal society.
In fact they do not think of that as a necessary evil, but as an ideal in itself, regardless of the Hideauze.


Pinion wasn't trying to understand the tech, he didn't have the ambition to make brand new stuff.

See the first point, there is proof that Gargantians are striving for technological advancement and not the mere exploitation of old technologies.

Pinion was simply being realistic there, but Striker proposed to let him see the theories and the data to create new technologies, that's a whole different thing than reverse engineering.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-23, 09:25
Why do you think that salvaging is "doing nothing"? Considering their situation learning from existent advanced technology is a lot more time and cost efficient than coming up with those technologies from scratch.

I remind you of what Ridget proposed in episode 2 about Chamber. She wanted to disassemble it in order to study it.
Your assumption that they are content to use past technology without understanding it is denied right there. And this is from the current leader of Gargantia.
You have a point. I still think they lack ambition, or they'd have taken on the whalesquids long before.



From that side I'm perfectly okay, but again I can't see how can that be connected with piety.
Piety means you can make sacrifices (taxes) without an immediate, tangible result.


In fact we have probably a thousand or more people that revere a machine caliber as a god and not a single one among them that has the talent to understand GA level technology.
From the other side you have a man that refers to machine calibers as "tin cans" and he happens to have the quality to understand them.
And they haven't precisely asked him to convert, have they?

I'm not saying that this is a definitive proof, but perhaps as long as you consider advanced technology as something divine in nature you can't really understand it, and as soon as you understand it you can't really worship it.

This is why I think that the religious aspect of Striker's cult is negatively affecting their development.

Probably, but we go back to the question of whether he can achieve his goals without it.



You think you can equate the major monotheistic religions with a sort of pharaonic cult? This isn't atheism vs religion here, Christians and Muslims are against the worship of false gods as much if not more than atheists are.
Excuse me, but who said anything about the "major monotheistic religions"? Humanity has been around for much longer than they have, and practiced a lot of other religions.

As for "false gods", that's just them being presumptuous. Like they're any different. Like they haven't extracted resources from their believers. Like they haven't pushed people into strange behaviors.


I'm not sure how much serious you are about this, but do you really think it's perfectly all right or necessary in any way to let or make people revere a leader as a divinity? Especially when that leader is perfectly conscious he isn't?
I think they're silly, but that's what I think of any overly religious behavior.

What would you think of someone doing that in the real world?
I may not think much of religion, but I respect religious freedom as long as it doesn't inconvenience me.

And again, if the goal is to get them ready to go fight space monsters... While I would prefer rational discussion, I'm not entirely convinced it would work.


What kind of sacrifices are truly necessary? What kind of sacrifices Pinion and the rest had to face in order to eradicate a whalesquid nest? Is eliminating the whalesquids from Earth truly necessary now that we know that they aren't much different from tigers and grizzlies?

I don't think that there's any indication of that. And as long as it isn't proven otherwise I can only think that Kugel/Striker are using the Hideauze menace as a mere excuse to impose their ideal society.
In fact they do not think of that as a necessary evil, but as an ideal in itself, regardless of the Hideauze.
I think it's more of a habit.

But why do you exclude the space Hideauze from your thinking? I think what they're working on is how to give spaceflight to the Earthling so they can join the fight up there. The Earth-bound ones are just an appetizer.

Funkatron
2013-06-23, 09:38
It's not a lack of ambition; its a lack of knowledge. They only know how to barely operate their equipment now due to trial and error and study. They don't know everything about it and I bet they don't know all the basics on how it even works. They just know it does work and how to fix it up to a point. Doesn't mean they aren't trying to learn more about how it works so they can make their own

Anh_Minh
2013-06-23, 14:53
I think they're silly, but that's what I think of any overly religious behavior.


I may not think much of religion, but I respect religious freedom as long as it doesn't inconvenience me.

And again, if the goal is to get them ready to go fight space monsters... While I would prefer rational discussion, I'm not entirely convinced it would work.


I realize I didn't express myself well.

What I meant is that while I personally am not religious, and don't understand religious fervor, I accept that some people are religious, and that it may have served societies well to have faithful amongst its populace. And that if you want a lot of people willing to set themselves on fire on your orders, you may well need religion, or something like it.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-24, 07:54
Great commanders didn't need to claim themselves to be gods to have people die for them. The way I've always seen the GA was as a society driven by a strong ideology, and ideologies can work as well as religions for that purpose.

I feel that Striker or Kugel somehow betrayed the spirit of the alliance by not giving enough trust to the very ideology they believed in if they thought it wasn't effective enough and that it had to be replaced with a faith in something that they don't even believe in.

If you don't draw a line, you might end up realizing that turning humans into mindless whalesquids is a more efficient way to reach the "galactic alliance's ideal of a perfect society". It becomes completely pointless if the human dignity isn't made a central point that can't be compromised for "efficiency" no matter what.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-24, 10:06
Great commanders didn't need to claim themselves to be gods to have people die for them. The way I've always seen the GA was as a society driven by a strong ideology, and ideologies can work as well as religions for that purpose.
But they aren't in the GA, talking to people raised in the GA, in the cold, barren space being besieged by space monsters. (And I did say "something like religion")

Jan-Poo
2013-06-24, 10:39
But they aren't in the GA, talking to people raised in the GA, in the cold, barren space being besieged by space monsters. (And I did say "something like religion")

Then what is the point?
I can recognize that trying to civilize a barbaric nation is a noble purpose even when misguided. From Striker/Kugel's perspective the objective should be to turn the earthling society into something close to the GA.

But they aren't doing so, they instead spread or anyway support ideals and practices that aren't proper of a civilized society under GA standards and they know it.

If they think they can't apply the GA way to them because they are "different", then they have failed from start. They have given up on a true civilization process. They settled for an aberration of the original ideal just because it was "easier".

Anh_Minh
2013-06-24, 17:13
It's moot after ep 12's reveals, but...

The point should have been to get people into space with technology they understood (as opposed to having a Machine Caliber giving them a lift, or even restored relics) on a large scale, and if possible get into contact with the GA. Everything could be solved after that, or at least it'd be somebody else's problem (especially as it may not happen in a human lifetime).

I don't necessarily see religion and civilization as opposing forces. As I said, religion is a way to get people to do things they don't understand. They don't have to be bad things.