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monir
2013-06-21, 23:09
Welcome to the discussion thread for Suisei no Gargantia, Episode 12.

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zztop
2013-06-22, 03:14
Is this the final episode, or is there still 1 more to go? The net's been abuzz that there's a 13th ep of Gargantia.

willyvereb
2013-06-22, 04:47
It will have a 13th episode.
Also there will be 3 OVA episodes later, IIRC.

Evil_Sephiroth
2013-06-22, 13:46
Only 13...So rushed ;_;

Shinhwa
2013-06-22, 22:55
Although I feel Chamber getting destroyed or severely damaged at the end of the series is nearly unavoidable, in all truth I hope he doesn't get destroyed. Who would want our round round mecha Kyon-kun to die? D:

So, don't die Chamber!!!

jeroz
2013-06-23, 06:30
As much as no one knows how the story will move forward, I'm sure they will be "predictable" when looking back.

Will there be a mecha battle? How will Ledo react? Will there be sacrifices/casualties? Who will be the unlikely ally? There are still too many variables at the moment, the very first scene shall determine which route this story will take, before being dragged all the way back to a happy ending.

Personally I don't think there will actually be a fancy mech battle, and probably will have more arguments back and forth instead. Chamber will play a massive part in this episode, depending on how Ledo manipulates the military protocol to his favour. That being said, I think there will be sacrifices. I don't think Ledo is foolish enough to actually carry out the program if it involves bloodshed, he has learnt and gain enough self awareness during his time on Gargantia to know what's right.

===

Edit: apparently the episode just finished. Judging by the screenshots, there's one convenience in the plot that I'm not sure what to think of. I would need to watch the subs to understand what happened.
Also, lulz this guy:
http://i.imgur.com/cYUx4IZ.jpg

MisaoFan
2013-06-23, 06:36
I finished to watch the latest episode, but my views on it is the same as the previous few episodes: not enough Ledo/Amy moments. Other than that, it was pretty nice: the scene involving Ledo and Amy's squirrel named Grace was very heartwarming, I think the latter is probably spying since last episode just to help Gargantians. Unfortunately, things doesn't go too well, and Melty finally shows some signs of suffering but her life/death situation is saved by Amy. It turns out that Striker plays a evil wild card against Ledo and Chamber, they are fighting against each other with morality, and it even turn out that Pinion was controlled by the sect but is finally pairing with his friends and Rackage to defeat the sect. The biggest twist revealed this episode happens in the end, where Ledo is curious on what's going on inside of Striker, only to find out that Kugel is actually holographed from the start. My feelings are somewhat relieved when in the end, Amy will save Ledo and they will probably forgive each other and will live a normal life together as a potential couple, and this is the last candle I'm going to left it once it finishes!

jeroz
2013-06-23, 06:40
-snip-

so are they going to leave the whole ep13 back to the whole "integration into the society" aspect of the story? With Chamber seemingly intact, I'm not sure how I feel about this. Hopefully the epilogue next week shall fill up some of the needed characterisations that people has been asking for. At least Melty seem a bit more 3 dimensional (I hope) judging from your comments

bastek66
2013-06-23, 06:54
Two hours faster... damn I missed livestream
http://i.imgur.com/do92TN6l.jpg (http://imgur.com/do92TN6)

konart
2013-06-23, 07:33
Still have high hopes for Gen's 13th episode.

Revan21
2013-06-23, 07:49
Episode 12

I knew Kugel was dead all along.

After seeing how they get rid off the sick and elderly it did not take long for Red and Pinion to change their allegiance. I had expected Chamber to refuse Red's orders but it was not so.

The last third of the episode was pure awesomeness. the way Red challanged the Striker to a dogfight (equiped with a huge machinegun he got from Pinion), while Lackage's lobster mecha was kicking ass and taking names on the ships. Pinion also reached bro tier by helping Red out with ground support.
This was one very resourceful mutiny.

It was also quite shocking when Red opened the cockpit and Kugel's body immediately started to decompose, to the point where even his head fell off O.o

All that's left is to utterly senmetsu the Striker, which should hold no moral problem for Red.

I wonder, how the Gargantia will take part in the fight and what's the golden key for? Hidden nukes? :D

Principalities
2013-06-23, 08:47
As many predicted. Kugel was indeed dead. The reign of tyranny was Striker's doing all along.
Who knows. If Kugel did survive, things might not have turned out this way. However, without it's pilot, Striker went full GA nuts.

Chamber would never behave like Striker as long as Ledo is around. Ledo's arguments and thoughts do actually influence his Machine Caliber.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-06-23, 09:13
Yeah, like what we can see in the previous episode’s thread, many members (both Urobuchi veterans and non-veterans) here already guessed that Kugel isn’t kicking anymore the moment he appeared in hologram only. That resulted in no surprise whatsoever when it actually happens/comes true. :heh:

lightbringer
2013-06-23, 09:52
This episode ought to finally put to rest the recurring so often here question of why an all-powerful AI/mecha still needs a human pilot. Look at the shit that happens when there isn't one :)

I thought there would be about 50% chance that Kugel is dead, but it makes sense in retrospect - he was not exactly a sticker for rules, so he wouldn't have gone apeshit crazy like that.

Forbin
2013-06-23, 11:11
So my guess is we are far into the future where the war is over..but chamber kept Ledo alive

Runa
2013-06-23, 11:41
gen really took that route ./omg

LystAP
2013-06-23, 12:19
This episode ought to finally put to rest the recurring so often here question of why an all-powerful AI/mecha still needs a human pilot. Look at the shit that happens when there isn't one :)

I thought there would be about 50% chance that Kugel is dead, but it makes sense in retrospect - he was not exactly a sticker for rules, so he wouldn't have gone apeshit crazy like that.

Thinking about it, I suppose this should have been the most likely route the series would have taken, given it's limited operating time (only one episode left).

Perhaps they would have left Kugel alive had they more time to develop the story, but this probably concludes the storyline quickly and leaves it open to the "big surprise" they supposedly have in the last episode (I remember an interview where Army's seiyuu hinted as such).

aohige
2013-06-23, 12:33
Kinda figured, the whole thing felt so detached from emotion, it didn't feel like Kugel was the same character from the episode 1.
The "Kugel is dead" was the most popular, but I also saw some theory like "Kugel is turning half-squid, driving him insane" lol

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-23, 12:38
Since we'd already thoroughly poked into Striker puppeteering Kugel around, I wasn't surprised either. I did think that having Kugel's corpse shrivel up and decapitate itself was a little excessive though.

Pinion letting his hair down... unfortunately he didn't put on sunglasses. :heh:

Mecha combat: Nothing too spectacular by the standards of the genre, but it wasn't too bad either.

One more round chambered in Chekhov's Gun: The key and the tower (even if they've been using it as a sprinkler system). And Striker's external power supply, which might tie into whatever else they might have been doing over on the Heart of Darkness fleet to make everyone so compliant.

On that note, if Kugel expired relatively early on, I wonder how much detail Striker went into regarding directions. People are fairly creative, after all, so a simple "In the Alliance we space the old and infirm" could be turned into the elaborate ceremony with the chairs and the levers and the Big Red Button, but at some point the AI still has to sign off on things.

"I need a bigger temple."
"Purple is a good color."
"Etc."

User210120
2013-06-23, 12:57
Machines take over the world

Funkatron
2013-06-23, 13:10
Now that the episode is stream...

That episode was EPIC. There were a few missteps to be sure but Gargantia is delivering in these final episodes. Moment of truth for not only Ledo but Pinion as well, letting his hair down and becoming a boss. Also Amy shone a little in this episode, too, rallying the Gargantians to help Ledo.

I still wonder on how much of the religion aspect was Striker's idea and how much of it was interpretation from zealots

SagaraSouske
2013-06-23, 13:11
I bet next eps, Earth Hideouze will assist in the defeat of Striker.

Funkatron
2013-06-23, 13:13
I bet next eps, Earth Hideouze will assist in the defeat of Striker.

And then one nods to Ledo and surprisingly offers Ledo forgiveness for his stupidity.

... it could happen!

Entravity
2013-06-23, 13:52
Pretty much everyone guessed the "twist" so that doesn't really come as a surprise. The fight is alright, but it's much needed nonetheless. Should be interesting to see what happens from here.

Dop
2013-06-23, 13:55
As had been suspected by many, Kugel was dead already and just to rub this in they showed the body's rapid decomposition after Ledo opened the cockpit, presumably breaking the seal which had kept the body preserved.

I do wonder what the Gargantia's ace in the hole will prove to be, presumably mounted in that big tower that everyone wondered about when it first appeared.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Ledo's last order to Chamber is to grab Striker, fly up into space and then self-destruct, destroying the pair of them.

Happy ending next week, right?

kk2extreme
2013-06-23, 14:05
I think the Galactic Alliance will come to earth next ep...

waffler
2013-06-23, 14:12
even though people saw that coming my head still exploded

LKK
2013-06-23, 14:20
There was one big surprise for me. I hadn't guessed how aware the high priestess was about what's going on around her. For someone who I thought was little more than a mindless lackey, she was very cognizant of what has happening and what needed to happen to make her god's world a reality. I wouldn't be surprised if next week we learn that she was the real power behind Striker and his actions. She may be the true threat that the Gargantian fleet has to face when they arrive on the scene. I don't think that the danger is passed even though we know Kugel is dead.

Helius
2013-06-23, 14:25
Guess all that's left is just what the key opens. Maybe it's for activating the wormhole device thus attracting the Alliance and Hideauze to Earh?

Thoughts?

Funkatron
2013-06-23, 14:27
Guess all that's left is just what the key opens. Maybe it's for activating the wormhole device thus attracting the Alliance and Hideauze to Earh?

Thoughts?

Why would that even be their trump card?

Helius
2013-06-23, 14:41
Why would that even be their trump card?

Chances are the Gargantians don't know what the key does. But referring to it as a "Stairway to Heaven" seems to imply something that...shoots into the sky, or vice versa. The wormhole device immediately comes to mind.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-23, 14:42
This was a fantastic episode for me, the battle was really awesome and it was also awesome to see Chamber deciding to side with Ledo even if that meant to go against Kugel's orders. Though it's a bit strange that Striker didn't play the card of the "highest ranked GA officer" on him.

For the rest everything went as planned, Kugel was already dead meaning that Striker just developed a goddess complex and decided to rule this humanity through her distorted view.
It's interesting to note that Striker has not only better specs than Chamber but also a lot more information (including the truth about the Hideauze) while Chamber doesn't even have the info on Strikers' specs.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the next reveal will be that the GA is indeed ran by AI and therefore that Striker isn't really going rogue but trying to ensure dominion over humans on Earth too.


Another predictable event is that Rackage was planning to mutiny with the help of Pinion. The checkov's gun that was introduced two episodes ago was fired leading to the chance for Chamber to win the duel.

Kudos to those who thought that the golden key of the Gargantia was an important plot element.


Guess all that's left is just what the key opens. Maybe it's for activating the wormhole device thus attracting the Alliance and Hideauze to Earh?

Thoughts?

My prediction is that it's meant to control an orbital cannon. The giant sprinkler is probably a transmitter and it was always suspiciously under the close supervision of Oldham who is clearly connected with that key.

gaiachaos
2013-06-23, 14:42
The stairway to heaven is one of the lost technologies. It looks like Gargantia plans to open a gate and send the Striker there?

Mangaka-chan
2013-06-23, 14:45
I'm surprised that people's predictions about Kugel came true. XD But on the other hand I like the fact that it's the machine who's been driving this whole cult thing and not a human being; it gives me back a little bit of my faith in humanity. :p

And now that Ledo has his own flying squirrel following him (and I'll bet it's a boy squirrel so we can ship him with Grace ;)) I have a feeling that Chamber is going to get destroyed somehow and he'll name the squirrel after Chamber...

Jimmy C
2013-06-23, 14:48
I'm just somewhat disappointed that they let Kugel be dead after all. If Ledo really had to go up against Kugel's ambitions, that would have been delightfully complicated.
Now, he's absolved of that. It's been reduced to a matter of putting down a runaway machine.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-23, 14:51
BTW of course someone had to lose his head in a way or another

http://plonq.org/up/51c7517eba1b7.jpg

Mangaka-chan
2013-06-23, 14:53
This was a fantastic episode for me, the battle was really awesome and it was also awesome to see Chamber deciding to side with Ledo even if that meant to go against Kugel's orders. Though it's a bit strange that Striker didn't play the card of the "highest ranked GA officer" on him.

For the rest everything went as planned, Kugel was already dead meaning that Striker just developed a goddess complex and decided to rule this humanity through her distorted view.
It's interesting to note that Striker has not only better specs than Chamber but also a lot more information (including the truth about the Hideauze) while Chamber doesn't even have the info on Strikers' specs.

I liked the part where Ledo asks Chamber if he can fight Striker and I can just imagine Chamber going "...um, I donno" :D

I think Chamber doesn't have Striker's specs because the Striker class machine caliber seem to be used by high ranking officers (I'm not well versed in military knowledge, so I'm assuming Kugel's rank is higher to some order than Ledo's Ensign designation). It might be another one of those pieces of information that the GA felt was unnecessary to impart to foot soldiers because they should focus only on their own task and capability, and not be concerned about what their superiors can/can not do.

Finre
2013-06-23, 14:58
All that hatred against Hideauze for abandoning their humanity and now we have a machine ruling over humans ^^.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-23, 15:04
It is interesting to note that Chamber declared that Striker's actions cannot be considered something related to military operations of the Galactic Alliance, which means he does not consider what Striker is doing as something she is supposed to do in respect to the GA's directives.

This has nothing to do with the alliance as far as we know, Striker simply decided that on her own, or perhaps it was Kugel before dying.

ookamigirl
2013-06-23, 15:09
Looks like Ledo liked Gargantia more than this new fleet.
It was a warm and cheerful place.
This one is just dark, depressing and unforgiving.
His commanders' new ways are not sitting well with Ledo.
It was nice Pinion and the others joined in to help the fight.
Wow, an unexpected surprise in the end.
Can't wait to see the final episode!

Funkatron
2013-06-23, 15:09
Chances are the Gargantians don't know what the key does. But referring to it as a "Stairway to Heaven" seems to imply something that...shoots into the sky, or vice versa. The wormhole device immediately comes to mind.

If I have some big deus ex machina final trump card weapon passed down from my predecessor, I'd sure as heck want to know what it does before I even THINK about turning the key. Ridget seems smart enough to ask that much. Oldham should know at least that much.

"Yeah, here you go new leader! Magic key that will save us!"
"What does it do?"
"Save us!"
"How?"
Who cares!"

RobotCat
2013-06-23, 15:10
I'm just somewhat disappointed that they let Kugel be dead after all. If Ledo really had to go up against Kugel's ambitions, that would have been delightfully complicated.
Now, he's absolved of that. It's been reduced to a matter of putting down a runaway machine.

Ledo made his decision to oppose Kugel before knowing that Kugel's dead. Now, if he only made this decision after finding out that Kugel's dead then it'd be what you're saying, but in this case, Ledo basically did go against Kugel (or who he thought was Kugel).

Anyways, looks like all the budget cuts from last episode were saved for this episode an the finale.

User210120
2013-06-23, 15:26
My prediction: next ep they will hunt strike

stormy001_M1A2
2013-06-23, 15:32
My speculation is the golden key is some kinda access to an orbital launch device similar to historical video when the Evolved nation is sending crafts to space so Striker and Chamber will self destruct in space. Those 2 advanced war machines should have tremendous energy source as propulsion and if even one of them exploded on Earth, it would be equalivent to multiple current modern nuclear rounds in terms of sheer destruction.

Nice ending: Ledo/Red decides to stay on Gargantia and becomes intimate with Amy after Chamber ejected him out of the cockpit to fulfill its last mission in protecting the pilot while it hugged Striker to the orbit for self destruct sequence

Bad ending: In last ditch effort to defeat the rogue war machine, Ledo/Red with his mecha hugged Striker, shoots into orbit and self destruct - a noble self sacrifice.

Crazy ending: GA or Space Hideauze appears in the orbit.

LystAP
2013-06-23, 15:37
My speculation is the golden key is some kinda orbital launch device similar to historical video when the Evolved nation is sending crafts to space so Striker and Chamber will self destruct in space. Those 2 advanced war machines should have tremendous energy source and if even one of them exploded on Earth, it would be equalivent to multiple current modern nuclear rounds being exploded.

Nice ending: Ledo/Red decides to stay on Gargantia and becomes intimate with Amy after Chamber ejected him out of the cockpit to fulfill its last mission in protecting the pilot while it hugged Striker to the orbit for self destruct sequence

Bad ending: In last ditch effort to defeat the rogue war machine, Ledo/Red with his mecha hugged Striker, shoots into orbit and self destruct - a noble self sacrifice.

Crazy ending: GA or Space Hideauze appears in the orbit.

Urobutcher Ending: Bad ending + Hidueaze AND GA appearing in orbit and horde of evolved whalesquid descending on Gargantia/Cultist Remnant fleet looking for revenge.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-23, 15:42
Enjoyable episode, but it just helps the whole series seem rushed and shallower than it could have been. Perhaps it's just my romance-oholism, but it seems to me that they wasted a lot of time through the series that they could have used to develop more of an emotional relationship between Ledo and Amy. Now we get reveal 1 (Kugel's survival), reveal 2 (his non-survival) and reveal 3 (the key) in three episodes.

Great quick-flying fighting scenes. Good partial rehabilitation for both the Lobster Lady and Pinion. Personally, I want the whale-squids to emerge as intelligent and befriendable, but that would be another too-quick reveal. Maybe the key calls in the whale-squids? I'm perfectly happy that Kugel is dead and a machine caliber other than Chamber is the bad buy. But the way Chamber found justification for obeying Ledo rather than the representative of his former rulers seemed a bit of a trick.

Fine series, but like many, it could have been better.

Tranhieu
2013-06-23, 15:47
I don't really get why Chamber is unable to comprehend the legitimacy of going against Commander's orders. Technically speaking, a soldier has to obey whatever his Commander's order is, and disregarding it means treason. A computer should understand at least that much, or the GA forgot to program him before he left the factory?

Chances are the Gargantians don't know what the key does. But referring to it as a "Stairway to Heaven" seems to imply something that...shoots into the sky, or vice versa. The wormhole device immediately comes to mind.
No, it's that huge sprinkler.:heh:

apotheosis
2013-06-23, 15:49
I'm disappointed Kugel is dead. I think it would have been far more interesting to have a long back and forth between him & Ledo about what the proper society is for the earthlings. Now it just feels black vs white with the computer blindly following GA protocol, instead of Kugel believing the GA way needed to be carried out on Gargantia.

I suppose there's only 1 episode left, so they just did not have time for that ..

Honestly I'm not much of fan of either GA or Gargantia's current society (though I can excuse GA more in their actual evironment than Gargantia on Earth). I hope they will at least hint that something between "happy go lucky with no real progress" and "space nazis" is possible for Earth. Even if Chamber is destroyed, there's always Pinion and his machines I suppose.

LystAP
2013-06-23, 15:57
I don't really get why Chamber is unable to comprehend the legitimacy of going against Commander's orders. Technically speaking, a soldier has to obey whatever his Commander's order is, and disregarding it means treason. A computer should understand at least that much, or the GA forgot to program him before he left the factory?


No, it's that huge sprinkler.:heh:

Not necessarily, Chamber did note that Striker was acting out of habit for Galactic Alliance military protocol, nor could Chamber rationalize that "Kugel"'s actions were as a member of the Galactic Alliance, or determine if it was something "Kugel" did independently; thus why he deferred to Ledo's judgment.

Chamber could conclude and perhaps did, that "Kugel"'s actions could be seen as corrupt, and as the next highest ranking GA officer, Ledo could be authorized to remove "Kugel" from command.

hai_san
2013-06-23, 16:08
haha so the Endboss is Striker Machina, seem due to the death of Kugel and without any guidance it developes an own will to pacify the planet and make it 2nd avalon... somehow it makes me fear that the real Avalon and the GA could have the same fate... somewhere a computer AI is controlling the humans to eradicate the Hideauze just to have the human having a task... Matrix/Terminator somehow...living while being controlled.

stormy001_M1A2
2013-06-23, 16:10
When Chamber requesting Colonel's health data, I suspect that is when the AI is crosschecking the military protocol to see if something amiss.

mikeomni
2013-06-23, 16:30
It figures that death is an endemic disease. The question is, when did Kugel die? Judging from the long hair and unshaven face, he was alive for a while since he entered that Striker. Did the MC Caliber kill him or was it other causes? He decomposed immediately after exposure to atmosphere while he seemed peacefully asleep. Sure it was dramatic, seemed kind of pointless to preserve the body unless (a) he was in stasis when he died (b) the MC was trying to preserve him for revival by an expert medical team.

The least ominous possibility, Striker put Kugel in stasis like Chamber did to Ledo when they went through the wormhole. Kugel couldn't be revived, so it went into "autopilot" which makes sense to keep the command structure operating despite the death of the superior officer. Of course, another officer can later assume command ... they could have "ai shotgun" programs for rogue MC like those omega worms in the Bolo series.

Most ominous possibility, Kugel has been dead since the before of the last battle. Space human bodies are flawed and do not work passed a certain service length. Which is why they are meant to reproduce once they reach 16. Ledo will learn he won't live beyond 2x age like Kugel. The GA is a human farm.

The Stairway to Heaven looks like it could be a power receiver. I'd imagine you need a lot of energy to fire magnetic space launchers. It may even be externally powered by orbiting solar collectors. Of course it is too strong to use for powering office equipment and ships in its original form. But may be able to pick up trickle charges from the sea galaxies which you could use to power a floating city. Once you use the key, you turn the core of gargantia into a spinal gun /yamato cannon with dire consequences. Which would further explain the indifference to Ledo's firepower in the start of the series, they had this trump card.

DuelGundam2099
2013-06-23, 16:42
So a rebellion just happened without any build up? Not that I am complaining though, this series was overdue for an action scene and it looks the wait was worth it depending on how they finish it next week. Either way, Surfing Lobster has now been mass produced. :cool:

On a related note I don't care if there is a massive casualty rate next episode or not just because of this Gen guy being on staff. I also don't see how people are calling this series dark/murder-fest, only two named people died so far.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-23, 16:42
At first I was disappointed because it turned out Kugel was just out to create his own slice of paradise inspired by self-centeredness and megalomania. Order without purpose, a cargo cult-like imitation of the GA.

And then I was even more disappointed because it turned out it was just an AI gone crazy.

Why couldn't it have been a compelling villain with valid reasons for his actions?

mikeomni
2013-06-23, 16:49
At first I was disappointed because it turned out Kugel was just out to create his own slice of paradise inspired by self-centeredness and megalomania. Order without purpose, a cargo cult-like imitation of the GA.

And then I was even more disappointed because it turned out it was just an AI gone crazy.

Why couldn't it have been a compelling villain with valid reasons for his actions?

It still could be. What we are seeing as a megalomaniac AI maybe someone's idea of a emergency protocol. Imagine in space you have adults and children in various stages of development. If all your adults got killed you need some way to ensure the next generation survives to fulfill the mission. The parameters may have been set up for pure survival mode. Discard defects, keep the best and ensure continued operation. If the exit threshold was set too high or not achievable then the machine stays in the loop.

Terrorist attack ...enforce martial law ... reduce civil liberties for greater protection until terror "goes away". Natural disaster ... enforce rationing until resources are in surplus. Sound familiar? It's not the right way to live. But it is a way to live ... some people say this is justifiable ... other will argue it isn't. My bar for humanity is a bit higher than merely living and breathing ... an acquired first world mentality.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-23, 16:57
It still could be. What we are seeing as a megalomaniac AI maybe someone's idea of a emergency protocol. Imagine in space you have adults and children in various stages of development. If all your adults got killed you need some way to ensure the next generation survives to fulfill the mission. The parameters may have been set up for pure survival mode. Discard defects, keep the best and ensure continued operation. If the exit threshold was set too high or not achievable then the machine stays in the loop.

Terrorist attack ...enforce martial law ... reduce civil liberties for greater protection. Natural disaster ... enforce rationing. Sound familiar? It's not the right way to live. But it is a way to live ... some people say this is justifiable ... other will argue it isn't. My bar for humanity is a bit higher than merely living and breathing ... an acquired first world mentality.

Still an AI gone crazy. Or it wouldn't have tried to deceive Ledo, and it would put more of an accent on restoring what it recognize as civilization than on conquest. In other words, more education and no overtaxing of its assimilation capabilities.

LystAP
2013-06-23, 17:00
At first I was disappointed because it turned out Kugel was just out to create his own slice of paradise inspired by self-centeredness and megalomania. Order without purpose, a cargo cult-like imitation of the GA.

And then I was even more disappointed because it turned out it was just an AI gone crazy.

Why couldn't it have been a compelling villain with valid reasons for his actions?

In my opinion as I thought earlier, they might have made a opponent like that, perhaps developed Kugel more had they more time. But with only one episode left, they went the fast route.

mikeomni
2013-06-23, 17:07
Still an AI gone crazy. Or it wouldn't have tried to deceive Ledo, and it would put more of an accent on restoring what it recognize as civilization than on conquest. In other words, more education and no overtaxing of its assimilation capabilities.

You could be right, given that Chamber showed some independent analysis, that Striker simply broke.

I'm saying the deception may be built in to the command units. It's running as designed. What we view as crazy is something a person up the chain decided was an expedient solution. In "emergency" situations some humans program in weird things that appear justifiable in their context. If you see an injured fellow, the human response should be to aid him. But if the cause of his injury, say a fire / tiger/ sniper, is also a threat to your survival it may prevent you from rendering aid. Until the story ends, this reason may still be lurking.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-23, 17:12
Well, yes. "Crazy" AIs generally act as programmed. It's just that someone didn't think things through, or they're in a context the AI wasn't designed for.

mikeomni
2013-06-23, 17:17
Well, yes. "Crazy" AIs generally act as programmed. It's just that someone didn't think things through, or they're in a context the AI wasn't designed for.

The beauty of sci-fi it exposes both the optimism and frailty of humans. We live with these kinds of problems everyday. Everytime I travel by plane I see these compromises in action. Someone from a different time would say we are crazy ... who is sane ... the "crazy" fellow or the person arguing with him?

Jan-Poo
2013-06-23, 17:21
Not necessarily, Chamber did note that Striker was acting out of habit for Galactic Alliance military protocol, nor could Chamber rationalize that "Kugel"'s actions were as a member of the Galactic Alliance, or determine if it was something "Kugel" did independently; thus why he deferred to Ledo's judgment.

Chamber could conclude and perhaps did, that "Kugel"'s actions could be seen as corrupt, and as the next highest ranking GA officer, Ledo could be authorized to remove "Kugel" from command.

Chamber didn't say anything about Kugel's actions, only about Striker. When asked if he could fight against Kugel he didn't answer, he simply said that he'd leave that to Ledo's judgement.

Apparently the fact that establishing an "ideal society" isn't GA's standard protocol is a valid reason to stop Striker, but not a valid reason to stop Kugel.

In the end what Ledo is trying to do isn't GA compliant either.
So why Chamber should think that is Kugel that's going rogue rather than Ledo?

Given the situation he should logically defer to the decision of the highest ranking officer. If the AI machine calibers weren't programmed that way, that would be a pretty huge oversight of the GA against possible defections and mutiny.

Kanon
2013-06-23, 17:23
Ledo decided to oppose Kugel of his own free will before finding out he was dead, so in essence I got what I wanted: he did go up against Kugel. However, I'm still somewhat disappointed they went for this incredibly predictable twist. I would have liked to see Kugel and Ledo argue about their now diverging philosophies. Kugel would have represented the GA Ledo now rejects. Now that Ledo knows the truth, he's going to dismiss anything Striker says as the ramblings of a faulty A.I.

I thought Ledo's attempt to convince Chamber to fight with him would be the highlight of this episode, but this was pretty anticlimactic. Chamber was surprisingly easy to convince. I would he would have at least argued back a bit.

Pinion redeemed himself this week. And he looked quite handsome with his hair down.

Urobutcher Ending: Bad ending + Hidueaze AND GA appearing in orbit and horde of evolved whalesquid descending on Gargantia/Cultist Remnant fleet looking for revenge.

No.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-23, 17:26
It still could be. What we are seeing as a megalomaniac AI maybe someone's idea of a emergency protocol. Imagine in space you have adults and children in various stages of development. If all your adults got killed you need some way to ensure the next generation survives to fulfill the mission. The parameters may have been set up for pure survival mode. Discard defects, keep the best and ensure continued operation. If the exit threshold was set too high or not achievable then the machine stays in the loop.

The "emergency protocol" line of defense for Striker's actions is outright defeated by Striker's own claim that the fleet under her control is an ideal society that experienced a big improvement in achieving happiness.

Nothing suggests that Striker sees the current situation as just a temporary measure to face an emergency (which in fact doesn't exist).

Jerseykid
2013-06-23, 17:28
We see the effects of limited episodes. It all just came together too conveniently.

I await the greatness of the mysterious key

Anh_Minh
2013-06-23, 17:31
Chamber didn't say anything about Kugel's actions, only about Striker. When asked if he could fight against Kugel he didn't answer, he simply said that he'd leave that to Ledo's judgement.

Apparently the fact that establishing an "ideal society" isn't GA's standard protocol is a valid reason to stop Striker, but not a valid reason to stop Kugel.

In the end what Ledo is trying to do isn't GA compliant either.
So why Chamber should think that is Kugel that's going rogue rather than Ledo?

Given the situation he should logically defer to the decision of the highest ranking officer. If the AI machine calibers weren't programmed that way, that would be a pretty huge oversight of the GA against possible defections and mutiny.

That would potentially give too much power to superior officers. Putting more eggs in a high-ranked basket, if you will.

Besides, I don't think Chamber would have accepted fighting against a superior officer if they hadn't been in completely uncharted waters.

Netto Azure
2013-06-23, 17:33
My speculation is the golden key is some kinda access to an orbital launch device similar to historical video when the Evolved nation is sending crafts to space so Striker and Chamber will self destruct in space. Those 2 advanced war machines should have tremendous energy source as propulsion and if even one of them exploded on Earth, it would be equalivent to multiple current modern nuclear rounds in terms of sheer destruction.

Nice ending: Ledo/Red decides to stay on Gargantia and becomes intimate with Amy after Chamber ejected him out of the cockpit to fulfill its last mission in protecting the pilot while it hugged Striker to the orbit for self destruct sequence

Bad ending: In last ditch effort to defeat the rogue war machine, Ledo/Red with his mecha hugged Striker, shoots into orbit and self destruct - a noble self sacrifice.

Crazy ending: GA or Space Hideauze appears in the orbit.

Pretty nice theories. Although since many people here already theorized last week that Kugel passed away the reveal wasn't as shocking.

Anyways I wonder if it's going to be a mix of those. xD

Jan-Poo
2013-06-23, 17:36
That would potentially give too much power to superior officers. Putting more eggs in a high-ranked basket, if you will.

That's the whole idea, the more you are high ranked the more you have power.

An admiral wouldn't want to have to deal with every defection of any grunts. In the case of a commander doing so, the admiral would still be higher ranked than him and command all the machine calibers under him.

If an admiral were to defect then the central government would act. That seems logical to me.


Besides, I don't think Chamber would have accepted fighting against a superior officer if they hadn't been in completely uncharted waters.

That's probably the case, I guess that much has changed regarding Chamber and not just Ledo.

SagaraSouske
2013-06-23, 17:43
Machine Caliber prob require pilot input to stay as normal AI. If Krugel died as soon as Striker landed on earth, it is possible Striker simply turned insane due to lack of pilot input and eventually is influenced by what fleet it has landed on - meaning first making the choice of demonstrating power and they cowered before such power as suppose to how Gargantia acted when Ledo showed up. A combination of the a different decision and different reaction prob brought about the current state of affairs.

As for the key, it'd be awesome if it transformed Gargantia into a giant robo to fight Striker but that isn't gonna happen. It prob is a mechanism to communicate to the Earth Hideuze or the remnant of first generation hybrid that are still around and get them to help fight Striker.

Dark Faith
2013-06-23, 17:51
Nice ending: Ledo/Red decides to stay on Gargantia and becomes intimate with Amy after Chamber ejected him out of the cockpit to fulfill its last mission in protecting the pilot while it hugged Striker to the orbit for self destruct sequence
.

Now that sounds an awful lot like one of the endings in Zone of the Enders: Fist of Mars for the GBA :heh:

Kaoru Chujo
2013-06-23, 17:52
One of the problems of having real AI is that the human programmers can't anticipate every eventuality. There's a reason why people themselves have so much trouble deciding what is right in various situations. Once Kugel died, Striker would have sought a human officer (unavailable) then gone for a plan of action based on the aims of the Union. Now an officer has arrived, but the new plan has become Striker's guiding principle, so she/it refuses to recognize his authority.

That is another bit of illogic, in my opinion. She should immediately recognize Ledo, it seems to me. That is logical, but it is also one of Asimov's three laws of robotics: 1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm; 2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law; 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Of course, a military robot by its nature goes against the first law, so perhaps military robots have other laws. And Striker may have "gone crazy" and jumped the rails of its original programming, anyway.

Never mind. At least this is real science fiction, so I'd better count my blessings.

Dark Wing
2013-06-23, 18:10
You know I can't help but wonder if Kugel had not been dead all along and this series was longer would he have been a good recurring villain to oppose Ledo?

mikeomni
2013-06-23, 18:19
One of the problems of having real AI is that the human programmers can't anticipate every eventuality. There's a reason why people themselves have so much trouble deciding what is right in various situations. Once Kugel died, Striker would have sought a human officer (unavailable) then gone for a plan of action based on the aims of the Union. Now an officer has arrived, but the new plan has become Striker's guiding principle, so she/it refuses to recognize his authority.

That is another bit of illogic, in my opinion. She should immediately recognize Ledo, it seems to me. That is logical, but it is also one of Asimov's three laws of robotics: 1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm; 2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law; 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Of course, a military robot by its nature goes against the first law, so perhaps military robots have other laws. And Striker may have "gone crazy" and jumped the rails of its original programming, anyway.

Never mind. At least this is real science fiction, so I'd better count my blessings.

I would be curious if the last episode reveals the parameters that drove Striker to its action. If there is some logic to it, then defeating the logic could lead to a less violent end of the story. If the AI is simply "off the rails" then there is only brute force left.

Striker might not recognize Ledo because there is a minimum seniority to override its actions. Ledo hasn't said the magic words so to speak, or maybe was not yet told how to do this. "Striker, terminate program, authorization one zulu seven seven, alpha priority."

ChainLegacy
2013-06-23, 18:26
Cool episode. I can't help but think that the key opens up the wormhole... what else could it be for? It could obviously be some weapon that had not been mentioned up until this point, but that would be very out of left field for a final episode reveal with no foreshadowing.

So if it is the wormhole... what could they possibly use it for (Gargantians) and what possible plot implications could it have? It would certainly be strange for either of the space factions to show up this late in the show...

triplez
2013-06-23, 18:26
This was a blast. LEdo made a decision all by himself . Good to know that the GA's ways are not absolute that Ledo can chart his own path. The growth in character while predictable is still amazing.

However I still dislike Stryker being the one pulling the string. I would have enjoyed watching Ledo punched Kugel but it does simplify things. The talk of Stryker being insane seems wrong to me. WE don't know how much of this is Kugel's doing if he was alive on Earth and expired afterwards or it was the AI from the beginning.

It's still incredible, a cut-off AI from the Galactic Alliance saw fit to mold Earth after their image. IF taken all the way Earth could become another Avalon. Stryker could have open a new front against the Space Hideaze. The lost technologies from the sea would have made that possible. Course all the whalesquids would be dead.

With only one episode left the happy ending to me seems predictable enough. However I hope Pinion doesn't die. Between him and the stuff he found he could literally transform Gargantia into a mighty fleet no longer fearing pirates or whalesquids. I would hate to return to the status quo. There has got to be an alternative to the Galactic Alliance's way or even the pacifist ideology practice by the Gargantians.

Jan-Poo
2013-06-23, 18:41
Cool episode. I can't help but think that the key opens up the wormhole... what else could it be for? It could obviously be some weapon that had not been mentioned up until this point, but that would be very out of left field for a final episode reveal with no foreshadowing.

So if it is the wormhole... what could they possibly use it for (Gargantians) and what possible plot implications could it have? It would certainly be strange for either of the space factions to show up this late in the show...

The problem is that, as you pointed out, exactly what are they thinking to do with a wormhole?

The situation that triggered Oldham's proposal is a situation that requires strength to fight or to end a war. And yet I seriously doubt that they are going to contact either the GA or the Hideauze, both would have terrible consequences for Earth, it would be absolutely crazy, unless we miss something major.

Then again there must be a reason if Urobuchi wanted to write the last episode in person while ditching almost everything else. There must be something "special" that is supposed to happen.

Can it really be something as trivial as: Deus Ex Machina X appears, Striker is defeated the cultists are reformed and everyone lived happily thereafter?

That can't be, right?

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of big revelation and a mindfuck involved...

BoyTitan
2013-06-23, 18:44
My speculation is the golden key is some kinda access to an orbital launch device similar to historical video when the Evolved nation is sending crafts to space so Striker and Chamber will self destruct in space. Those 2 advanced war machines should have tremendous energy source as propulsion and if even one of them exploded on Earth, it would be equalivent to multiple current modern nuclear rounds in terms of sheer destruction.

Nice ending: Ledo/Red decides to stay on Gargantia and becomes intimate with Amy after Chamber ejected him out of the cockpit to fulfill its last mission in protecting the pilot while it hugged Striker to the orbit for self destruct sequence

Bad ending: In last ditch effort to defeat the rogue war machine, Ledo/Red with his mecha hugged Striker, shoots into orbit and self destruct - a noble self sacrifice.

Crazy ending: GA or Space Hideauze appears in the orbit.

No chamber is needed to help the people advance now that the have advance technology and from there battle in space they don't create big explosions when destroyed because ledo would never have fought whale squid on earth if that was the case.

Does a key to a elevator even sound helpful to you. Hai ledo we have a idea to help here use this elevator and gtfo with striker k thanks by. Orbital lasers makes a 1000 times more sense and seems like something that would get treated with the fear and respect it gets from the crew.

Anyways from this battle fighting to kill chamber should be able to avoid being destroyed lets check off strengths ledo has going.

#1 This is not a sunrise series where the most advance or newest model always win ala gundam seed,code geass,GC,Valrave you get the point, Sunrise has a terrible habit of making the newest unit or most high spec unit never loose to a older or lower spec one.

#2 Machine Calibers are not designed to fight each other they rely on 4 factors since fighting each other is vastly different from fighting whale squid

#1 First means of attack high out put mass targeting does not matter if striker has the edge in taking out multiple enemy's since this is a 1vs1 fight

#2 maneuverability there are 2 sides to this yes striker is faster but Chamber has a ace pilot in ledo and ground support so here they are tied.

#3 energy out put While striker does have more power find strikers power source and its screw double edged sword and its main advantage currently.

So chamber has a fair chance of winning. Hit and run focus on the units control center.

Honestly I would rather have kugel had been alive but the fight this episode between chamber and striker was good enough for me to just forget about it.

Chamber has grown more in the series than Ledo has him not taking Ledos side would have been a plot hole.

Irenesharda
2013-06-23, 19:02
Finally an episode you can really sink your teeth into!

Everything that has happened so far has come to this. Gargantia is finally making the move to make some changes and take a stand. The humans aren't crazy about this new order and start a rebellion headed by Pinion and Rakkage. For the first time in the show, Pinion isn't a douchebag and is actually doing really well. I guess all he needed was a new hairstyle, which I have to say makes him look ten times better. He's almost in bishie territory now.

Red has been battling against his ingrained training and has finally come to the decision that what his Commander is doing is wrong. He decides to fight against him instead, and Chamber decides to follow as his pilot decides, basing it on the logic that what the Commander is doing doesn't follow along with Alliance regulations.

And thus begins the most epic of fights as Chamber and Striker go head to head, while Pinion and Rakkage take care of things on the ground. Red is able to pin his leader, only to find out what I and many others guessed last week: Kugel has been dead for some time and Striker has been the one truly running the show. This begs the question of whether Striker's wiring has gone haywire or if the AI has become independent and is following her own plan? Either way, it has shocked Red to the core and he looks like her is out for mecha "blood" next week.

So what will be the thrilling conclusion to this tale and will it be a happy victory? Or will Striker's attack cause a great loss of life?

I give this episode a 8.7/10. The end of this show is deciding not to be a disappointment, and I'm glad for that.

ginger02
2013-06-23, 19:46
Hey this episode made me like Pinion and Lukkage more. And Pinion should always, always have his hair down.

Love melty's journey too, that couldn't have been easy. I need more Amy though, hopefully in the upcoming episode and OVA's.

The theme of this episode seems to deal with following what you feel is right, resisting corrupt rule, and thinking for yourself.

Irenesharda
2013-06-23, 20:05
This was a blast. LEdo made a decision all by himself . Good to know that the GA's ways are not absolute that Ledo can chart his own path. The growth in character while predictable is still amazing.

However I still dislike Stryker being the one pulling the string. I would have enjoyed watching Ledo punched Kugel but it does simplify things. The talk of Stryker being insane seems wrong to me. WE don't know how much of this is Kugel's doing if he was alive on Earth and expired afterwards or it was the AI from the beginning.

It's still incredible, a cut-off AI from the Galactic Alliance saw fit to mold Earth after their image. IF taken all the way Earth could become another Avalon. Stryker could have open a new front against the Space Hideaze. The lost technologies from the sea would have made that possible. Course all the whalesquids would be dead.

With only one episode left the happy ending to me seems predictable enough. However I hope Pinion doesn't die. Between him and the stuff he found he could literally transform Gargantia into a mighty fleet no longer fearing pirates or whalesquids. I would hate to return to the status quo. There has got to be an alternative to the Galactic Alliance's way or even the pacifist ideology practice by the Gargantians.

I don't know if "insane" is the right word. It's more of that it's intelligence has gone beyond it's original programming and now Striker is doing what it thinks is right, either because of a reworking of it's original purpose, or beacause it feels that this is necessary to accomplish its directive. Sci-fi has been full of these kind of A.I.s from Skynet, to Hal 9000, to ARIA and VIKI. They all start off on their original programming until they become so aware that they go outside the bounds in which they were originally designed in order to accomplish their directive more efficiently.

As for Kugel, he's been dead for a pretty long time. I think Red's been on Earth for around 6 months or so, I think? (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and that's about 183 days or so. That would probably coincide with the amount of decomposition we saw after exposure. It usually takes between 50 to 365 days, depending on conditions, for a body to look like that, however, it all depends on other variables such as Kugel's physical make-up as a space living human, as well as the fact that his body has been in an airtight environment. Being in a sterile environment means that he probably been dead even longer than usual, since he has gotten to that point of decomposition without the help of insects or other things. All in all, I would say he's probably been dead since arriving on the planet. It could be that perhaps he died on impact, such as a broken neck?

As to Gargantia's pacifist ideals, I too hope things don't return to status quo and that Amy's push for the Garganitians to act instead or running away shows that they are ready to get out of the stagnancy they been in for generations. And that with this newfound technology, humanity can grow again.

Marina2
2013-06-23, 20:08
Then again there must be a reason if Urobuchi wanted to write the last episode in person while ditching almost everything else. There must be something "special" that is supposed to happen.

Can it really be something as trivial as: Deus Ex Machina X appears, Striker is defeated the cultists are reformed and everyone lived happily thereafter?

That can't be, right?

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of big revelation and a mindfuck involved...

Urobuchi: You mean.....if I make it a happy ending with no big revelation and a mindfuck involved, you will be surprise right? Ok. :D Everyone seems to able to predict what I am gonna do anyway. Maybe this way will surprise them more.

Funkatron
2013-06-23, 20:09
I was wondering if anyone noticed: in the first 2 minutes of the Striker vs Chamber fight at around 16:10, the music sounded like an homage/remix version of "The Dark Knight" Trilogy soundtrack

SeijiSensei
2013-06-23, 20:11
Hmm. Five pages and no speculation on how the Pinion x Lukkage x Bellows triangle is going to turn out? I could see him joining either of them as salvagers, or maybe they could all go into business together. I can only imagine how that would work out, and none of my imaginings suggest it would go well.

Except maybe for Pinion.

yankky5
2013-06-23, 20:12
Well hot damn we got another skynet

Funkatron
2013-06-23, 20:15
Hmm. Five pages and no speculation on how the Pinion x Lukkage x Bellows triangle is going to turn out? I could see him joining either of them as salvagers, or maybe they could all go into business together. I can only imagine how that would work out, and none of my imaginings suggest it would go well.

Except maybe for Pinion.

I think that Pinion's leveling up Bellow might see him as a man now and act accordingly, if Lukkage doesn't jump him first

SeijiSensei
2013-06-23, 20:47
Thinking back on Lukkage's first appearance in the series, where she seemed to be portrayed as a lesbian S&M dominatrix, perhaps she'll take an interest in Bellows, and Pinion will be left out in the cold.

Funkatron
2013-06-23, 20:51
Thinking back on Lukkage's first appearance in the series, where she seemed to be portrayed as a lesbian S&M dominatrix, perhaps she'll take an interest in Bellows, and Pinion will be left out in the cold.

That's assuming Bellows will reciprocate. Seriously, shippers: it takes 2 to tango, you know

winkel
2013-06-23, 20:55
If Lukkage doesn't jump him first
Wasn't the implication last episode was that she already did jump him. :heh:

This episode... while I knew where it was trying to go, it made too many non-sequiturs along the way, such as:

-They didn't even explain the point of the ritual of dumping people into the sea. It was just "the big bad dark event of this fleet that everyone had to see to snap themselves and realize their actions." It seems the new fleet has not been given a single chance at all to explain their weird actions, only to establish that they are religious fanatics under the control of the Commander.

-Melty faltering in the middle of the sea. I can see that the point was she was traveling long and hard to reach Gargantia, and probably is very fatigued at that point, but did she just have to happen to faint and lose control right at that point? And Amy just happening to be close enough to her to catch her? It would have been a more believable scenario if she made it closer to the fleet and was saved from the ocean (or failing to reach the fleet, but that might be a bit too cruel).

Jan-Poo
2013-06-23, 20:57
Urobuchi: You mean.....if I make it a happy ending with no big revelation and a mindfuck involved, you will be surprise right? Ok. :D Everyone seems to able to predict what I am gonna do anyway. Maybe this way will surprise them more.

Hey, I can surprise everyone by piercing my hand with a knife for no reason, that doesn't mean it would be a smart move.

Cloudedmind
2013-06-23, 21:18
You know it's about to get crazy when Pinion let's HIS hair down.

It looks like the ritual finally snapped Ledo back to reality and he pushed to go against Kugel. I was also a bit surprised that Chamber was easy to convince but seeing as he said Strikers actions weren't in line with the GA's, I guess for him it wasn't much of a problem. In the end Ledo still had to make the decision himself, and I'm glad he did.

I think if the series had been longer they may have kept Kugel alive so we could get that talk between him and Ledo, but I don't think the talk we'll get between him and Striker can't be any less interesting. I mean just 2 episodes ago we got a great exposition from Chamber about the continued need to fight the Hideaze, which Ledo really seemed to consider. Of course I don't believe for a second that Ledo will change his mind now, but we may still get something interesting from Striker.

Now only to wait and see what that key does.

Shinhwa
2013-06-23, 21:19
Welp, we got an insane robot here.

Theo
2013-06-23, 21:20
I don't see why everyone's complaining about Striker spouting Alliance doctrine.

Those lines put by "Kugel"? That was all Striker and we enjoyed it right? Striker can still argue with Ledo and bring up Kugel's and the Alliance's points without much difference, right?

Diveman
2013-06-23, 21:25
Holy crap, and I thought Gen couldn't surprise me anymore with this series

Irenesharda
2013-06-23, 21:28
With Urobuchi personally writing the last episode of the series, I'm concerned for Red. I'm not sure if it's going to be all smiles and happy ending for him by the end of this.

I can think of five possible endings:

1) Chamber sacrifices himself for Red in order the destroy Striker and Red starts a new life on Gargantia, helping them adapt the tech so humanity can begin to thrive.

2) Both Chamber and Red sacrifice themselves to destroy Striker, and Gargantia and all Earth humanity will be forever changed by the visitors for beyond the stars.

3) The key is used for a warp gateway that Red and Chamber use to get rid of Striker, however they too get sucked in and end up back at the GA. Red uses what he's learned to change the GA and help the rest of humanity stuck in endless battle.

4) The battle is hard and many are lost, but Red with the help of Gargantia is able to destroy Striker. Everyone begins to rebuild and Red finds a new home.

5) Number 4, but at the very end, the GA show up, having traced Kugel and Red's signals.

stormy001_M1A2
2013-06-23, 21:30
I suspect if Colonel Kugel is still alive, things will not go that far on the cultist fleet. He is not exactly a "by the book person" as seen in 1st episode where he disregarded SOP to help a lowly ranked officer (2nd Lt Ledo/Red) during retreat.

Usually it is other way round, soldiers will try their best to keep their commanding officers alive in most circumstances.

So if he is alive, I don't think he will be so extreme in defending/enforcing GA's philosophy like combat AI did or fight another survivor from GA like Ledo/Red.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-23, 21:33
-They didn't even explain the point of the ritual of dumping people into the sea. It was just "the big bad dark event of this fleet that everyone had to see to snap themselves and realize their actions." It seems the new fleet has not been given a single chance at all to explain their weird actions, only to establish that they are religious fanatics under the control of the Commander.

-Melty faltering in the middle of the sea. I can see that the point was she was traveling long and hard to reach Gargantia, and probably is very fatigued at that point, but did she just have to happen to faint and lose control right at that point? And Amy just happening to be close enough to her to catch her? It would have been a more believable scenario if she made it closer to the fleet and was saved from the ocean (or failing to reach the fleet, but that might be a bit too cruel).

The ceremony: It showed that the fleet was doing things the way that the Alliance used to... and that Ledo no longer agreed with it. The dumpees were generally elderly, plus that kid that looked like Bevel and Ledo's brother and triggered the flashback shots. We know from Chamber that the Alliance destroys people that it doesn't consider worthy of support, so the parallels are all there. We learned from Gargantia that the rain is relatively infrequent, so it served as an event trigger, as well as providing another contrast between the Gargantians getting together to collect rain and the Apocalypse Now fleet getting together to drop people into the ocean...

As far as Melty conveniently running out of energy just before Amy saved her, that's just plain old dramatic license. :)

LKK
2013-06-23, 21:39
That is another bit of illogic, in my opinion. She should immediately recognize Ledo, it seems to me. That is logical, but it is also one of Asimov's three laws of robotics: 1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm; 2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law; 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Of course, a military robot by its nature goes against the first law, so perhaps military robots have other laws. And Striker may have "gone crazy" and jumped the rails of its original programming, anyway.
What does a fictional idea that Asimov invented for his short story Runaround have to do with the fictional world created for Suisei no Gargantia? There is no reason for anything in this fiction to operate by the ideas of another fiction.

As for Kugel, he's been dead for a pretty long time. I think Red's been on Earth for around 6 months or so, I think? (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
Ledo has been on Earth for closer to a year. You forgot that he spent the first 6 months in suspended animation in Chamber at the bottom of the ocean. I agree that he's been awake for about 6 months for a total of a year's worth of time on Earth.

-Melty faltering in the middle of the sea. I can see that the point was she was traveling long and hard to reach Gargantia, and probably is very fatigued at that point, but did she just have to happen to faint and lose control right at that point? And Amy just happening to be close enough to her to catch her? It would have been a more believable scenario if she made it closer to the fleet and was saved from the ocean (or failing to reach the fleet, but that might be a bit too cruel).
Amy didn't just happen to be close enough to catch her. Melty was signaling the Gargantia when she lost consciousness. I thought I saw a return signal as well. Plus a look of relief on Melty's face before she lost consciousness. My conclusion is that Amy saw Melty's signal, responded, and then immediately launched to meet her mid-air. Amy's presence wasn't a coincidence; she was responding to Melty's communication.

SeijiSensei
2013-06-23, 21:39
As far as Melty conveniently running out of energy just before Amy saved her, that's just plain old dramatic license. :)

Indeed. Anyone who watches anime and objects to implausible coincidences is not going to be watching for long. There's an equally unlikely coincidence in this week's Space Brothers, too. It comes with the territory.

Shinhwa
2013-06-23, 21:49
In all truth, I am sure Chamber may have turned out the same as Striker if Ledo was dead.

Polarpew
2013-06-23, 22:03
shit! robot rebellion! iRobot/Matrix much? This also proves that the robots dont require human pilots and perhaps never has?

Irenesharda
2013-06-23, 22:20
I suspect if Colonel Kugel is still alive, things will not go that far on the cultist fleet. He is not exactly a "by the book person" as seen in 1st episode where he disregarded SOP to help a lowly ranked officer (2nd Lt Ledo/Red) during retreat.

Usually it is other way round, soldiers will try their best to keep their commanding officers alive in most circumstances.

So if he is alive, I don't think he will be so extreme in defending/enforcing GA's philosophy like combat AI did or fight another survivor from GA like Ledo/Red.

Umm, sorry but Kugel is as dead as you can get. There is no "if he is alive". The guy is dust, bone, hair, and bits of leathery flesh.


Ledo has been on Earth for closer to a year. You forgot that he spent the first 6 months in suspended animation in Chamber at the bottom of the ocean. I agree that he's been awake for about 6 months for a total of a year's worth of time on Earth.



Okay, then that makes perfect sense then as even in the best conditions a body will decompose to bone in about a year, maybe a little longer in a sterile environment. So, yeah, Kugel's probably been dead since or on arrival.

kyp275
2013-06-23, 22:28
One of the problems of having real AI is that the human programmers can't anticipate every eventuality. There's a reason why people themselves have so much trouble deciding what is right in various situations. Once Kugel died, Striker would have sought a human officer (unavailable) then gone for a plan of action based on the aims of the Union. Now an officer has arrived, but the new plan has become Striker's guiding principle, so she/it refuses to recognize his authority.

That is another bit of illogic, in my opinion. She should immediately recognize Ledo, it seems to me. That is logical, but it is also one of Asimov's three laws of robotics: 1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm; 2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law; 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Of course, a military robot by its nature goes against the first law, so perhaps military robots have other laws. And Striker may have "gone crazy" and jumped the rails of its original programming, anyway.

Never mind. At least this is real science fiction, so I'd better count my blessings.

Bringing Asimov into Gargantia just because there are robots makes about as much sense as bringing Star Driver into Attack on Titan because the Cybodies and Eotens are big. Though at least you can have fabulous eotens in the latter scenario :p

kakakka
2013-06-23, 22:29
I would have liked to see Kugel and Ledo argue about their now diverging philosophies. Kugel would have represented the GA Ledo now rejects.

To be honest, I agree with you. But this also ties in with Chamber's dialogue 2 episodes before. In a sense, the Machine Calibers (and the AI) are the representation of GA's ideals....

Now that Ledo knows the truth, he's going to dismiss anything Striker says as the ramblings of a faulty A.I.

Yeah.

I am thinking Striker is carrying Kugel's will; since Kugel died, Striker was left to continue Kugel's wish, not only for the sake of GA's ideals, but also to affirm its continued existence.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-23, 22:30
Umm, sorry but Kugel is as dead as you can get. There is no "if he is alive". The guy is dust, bone, hair, and bits of leathery flesh.

...and his head came off. In most cases you don't come back from that one. :heh:

Irenesharda
2013-06-23, 23:00
Here's a question: Why the HECK hasn't Pinion been wearing his hair down? He looks 10 times more awesome, and he seems to have gotten 10 times smarter too. Maybe all that hair gel was affecting his brain...:heh:

http://tenka.seiha.org/images2013/gar12/42.jpg

andyjay729
2013-06-23, 23:01
I don't know why all robotics stories have to be hidebound to Asimov's laws, since we obviously haven't yet developed a sentient robot. (And perhaps shows like this and 2001 show why we probably shouldn't.)

Yes, I can perhaps imagine a scenario where a sentient computer might declare itself superior to its "meatbag" creators and perhaps as mankind's successor child; a creature born of pure intellect. If a robot or even computer has all the intellectual capacities of a human, why shouldn't it develop sentiments of arrogance and pride...or perhaps independence and justice, as Chamber seems to be doing when it/he agreed to go into battle against Striker?

Going back to the show, I personally would've liked the fight between Ledo and Striker to be a little more drawn out and Ledo to actually be in a position of danger and fear for his life; but still, the fight that did ensue was pretty awe-inspiring, and I liked seeing him finally standing up to his old masters.

And I also like how Melty became quite the determined little spitfire in the past couple episodes. I think she's actually had more lines than Amy in the last two.

I was confused; was the squirrel Ledo encountered Grace herself, or just another of her species? (Which gives the implication that in this world, they breed like ship rats.)

Cloudedmind
2013-06-23, 23:10
I don't know why all robotics stories have to be hidebound to Asimov's laws, since we obviously haven't yet developed a sentient robot. (And perhaps shows like this and 2001 show why we probably shouldn't.)

Yes, I can perhaps imagine a scenario where a sentient computer might declare itself superior to its "meatbag" creators and perhaps as mankind's successor child; a creature born of pure intellect. If a robot or even computer has all the intellectual capacities of a human, why shouldn't it develop sentiments of arrogance and pride...or perhaps independence and justice, as Chamber seems to be doing when it/he agreed to go into battle against Striker?

Going back to the show, I personally would've liked the fight between Ledo and Striker to be a little more drawn out and Ledo to actually be in a position of danger and fear for his life; but still, the fight that did ensue was pretty awe-inspiring, and I liked seeing him finally standing up to his old masters.

And I also like how Melty became quite the determined little spitfire in the past couple episodes. I think she's actually had more lines than Amy in the last two.

I was confused; was the squirrel Ledo encountered Grace herself, or just another of her species? (Which gives the implication that in this world, they breed like ship rats.)

I believe it was another of her species since Ledo himself acknowledges that Grace is back on Gargantia with Amy.

playmaker2k
2013-06-23, 23:11
I was so spot on with that revelation!

It really was Striker the whole time with his corpse left rotting in the cockpit.

The A.I was probably left to revert to what it was programmed to do to remain relevant since Chamber said a couple episodes back that the machine calibur's sole purpose or in this case its "existence" was to take out the hideaze.

The only problem is it was never informed in what to do if their pilot dies along the way especially in a foreign land.

Chamber is the best!

That is all.

Oh and I like how they use the hook for the main theme in The Dark Knight during that battle with Kugel.

Don't think I didn't see what you did there, Production I.G.

Like the World's Greatest Detective, here's the proof.

watch?v=vLqKSv1F42A

Listen to the 2:13 marker and enjoy.

(<Batman fanatic)

Theo
2013-06-23, 23:11
Holy shit, Gen went Full Mami on Kugel, even with yellow hair! (yeah yeah helmet tint, but still)

Nvis
2013-06-23, 23:12
Ledo has his own squirrel buddy!

Irenesharda
2013-06-23, 23:45
I believe it was another of her species since Ledo himself acknowledges that Grace is back on Gargantia with Amy.

Yeah, it was a totally different squirrel and actually he debuted last episode scurrying in the shadows. Grace has longer ears, which may indicate that the female of the species is bigger with more extravagant markings and long ears, where the male is smaller with blunter ears and a little plainer.

So yeah, he and Amy now have a pair!

http://i1.wp.com/angryanimebitches.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Suisei-no-Gargantia-Ep-12-Img-0005.png?fit=1024%2C1024http://www.anime-planet.com/images/characters/grace_gargantia_on_t_50139.jpg

Marina2
2013-06-24, 00:10
I love this ep.

- Ledo re-do his thought.
- Melty didn’t get melted by beam when she took off.
- Pinion changed his opinion on Kugel (Striker) force.
- LUKKAGE lurked under water and attacked.
- Striker get struck by Chamber.
- Amy is ready to go to save Ledo.
- Kugel turned into gel…. (oh! )

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-24, 00:13
Chamber I'm impressed! You left the decision to Ledo.

In a way Chamber is a master manipulator. He had doubts with the disease and "happiness" Striker was spewing but ultimately left the choice to Ledo.

He would support his pilot over somebody who does not act rationally.

Striker it seems ultimately lost its marbles. Ledo and Chamber fight her to protect humanity.

Unknown Soldier
2013-06-24, 00:19
Chamber is merely a pilot support system. His purpose is to maximize the combat efficiency of his pilot. In the absence of direct orders from the Galactic Alliance, he obeys the commands of his pilot. He didn't leave the decision to anyone, he's an AI programmed to support his pilot.

What's interesting is what Striker is doing. In the absence of her pilot, why is she acting on her own? Her purpose is to maximize the efficiency of her pilot. I hope the Galactic Alliance are not so stupid as to design a support AI which doesn't automatically execute a failsafe shutdown on the termination of the pilot's life.

After last week's episode, it looked like the show was about to go completely off the rails but this episode somehow managed to jump clear off the tracks and land squarely on another set of tracks. It's obvious they are rushing the story now though, one wonders why they wasted so much time earlier on with such a short 1-cour run planned.

novalysis
2013-06-24, 00:43
Well, I am surprised no one has brought up the other crazy possibility of a twist ending: Gargantia is a pre-preparation virtual program for those entering Avalon.

LystAP
2013-06-24, 00:56
A minor tidbit I realized that should have made the eventual Kugel reveal more predictable while watching this episode. During the battle, "Kugel" was basically repeating the same statements he made earlier, with no differences in tone or wording that a human may have under similar circumstances.

yankky5
2013-06-24, 01:03
Here's a question: Why the HECK hasn't Pinion been wearing his hair down? He looks 10 times more awesome, and he seems to have gotten 10 times smarter too. Maybe all that hair gel was affecting his brain...:heh:

http://tenka.seiha.org/images2013/gar12/42.jpg

lol just like himekawa xD

Chamber is merely a pilot support system. His purpose is to maximize the combat efficiency of his pilot. In the absence of direct orders from the Galactic Alliance, he obeys the commands of his pilot. He didn't leave the decision to anyone, he's an AI programmed to support his pilot.

What's interesting is what Striker is doing. In the absence of her pilot, why is she acting on her own? Her purpose is to maximize the efficiency of her pilot. I hope the Galactic Alliance are not so stupid as to design a support AI which doesn't automatically execute a failsafe shutdown on the termination of the pilot's life.

After last week's episode, it looked like the show was about to go completely off the rails but this episode somehow managed to jump clear off the tracks and land squarely on another set of tracks. It's obvious they are rushing the story now though, one wonders why they wasted so much time earlier on with such a short 1-cour run planned.

Astro boy would be so proud of you, you used he and she on chamber and striker instead of it :P

ArrowSmith
2013-06-24, 01:41
Awesome episode. When Ledo tells Chamber - "Chamber, prepare for war", I did a Freddie Mercury raised fist.

Unknown Soldier
2013-06-24, 01:45
Astro boy would be so proud of you, you used he and she on chamber and striker instead of it :P

The AIs are programmed to have male and female human voices. What's wrong with using the proper genders to address them? Why else would they have been programmed with human voices instead of robotic ones? Anthropomorphism is intentional when machine voices are assigned human qualities, it's so humans will feel more comfortable when interacting with them. Haven't you ever wondered why Siri is a woman? :heh:

durack
2013-06-24, 01:48
This really feels like a 26 episode show spliced into 13.... at random

Watchable but utterly forgettable. A pity.

ArrowSmith
2013-06-24, 01:48
The AIs are programmed to have male and female human voices. What's wrong with using the proper genders to address them? Why else would they have been programmed with human voices instead of robotic ones? Anthropomorphism is intentional when machine voices are assigned human qualities, it's so humans will feel more comfortable when interacting with them. Haven't you ever wondered why Siri is a woman? :heh:

Just look at Siri - female voice.

ArrowSmith
2013-06-24, 01:49
This really feels like a 26 episode show spliced into 13.... at random

Watchable but utterly forgettable. A pity.

I disagree. I will long remember this series and yes it should have been 26 episodes.

Dash_Hunter
2013-06-24, 02:35
Good episode, the possibility of Kugel being dead and Striker doing things in his name crossed my mind when Striker first appeared.

My theory for the last episode:
The key that Gargantians have sends a signal to the portal that humans and hideauze used in the past, Ledo and Chamber can't destroy Striker so they plan to send it away from earth.
They use all the power that's left and cross the portal with Striker, the Gargantians close the portal and Ledo, Chamber and Striker are lost forever (or they return to the GA or appear infront of the hideauze)

Happy version:
The same but Chamber ejects Ledo before he starts the plan so he can stay in Gargantia.

Dark Wing
2013-06-24, 02:43
This really feels like a 26 episode show spliced into 13.... at random

Watchable but utterly forgettable. A pity.

Oh come on now I've seen way worse. This series may have been on the short side and would've been great if it was a bit longer but it's not forgettable.

Irenesharda
2013-06-24, 02:54
This really feels like a 26 episode show spliced into 13.... at random

Watchable but utterly forgettable. A pity.

I wouldn't say it's forgettable, but it did have wasted potential.

It actually almost feels as if there were 4 or 5 different writers writing 4 or 5 completely different stories and then they tried to make them all converge somehow, without really know what the other writer wrote.


You had one thing going on with the space battle and a future Utopian society that's not exactly what it seems.
Then you have the battle-hardened fish out of water story, who is trying to fit into a society that doesn't need him.
Then you have a romance harem slice-of-life antics story trying to squeeze in there.
And then you have the darker, moral-challenging plot line involving the Hideauze and what really makes us human, and where does one draw the line.
And now they've tossed that out AGAIN, to have a humanity vs. enslaving rogue A.I. rebellion storyline where the A.I. is trying to save humanity by taking over it and enforcing its mechanical logic.


They have all these storylines that would have been great plots singularly, but they instead tried to have them all fit in a single cour show, thus every single one of them is only half done and everything becomes haphazard.

This was a good episode, but this has been one off kilter show. I've come this far, I might as well see how it ends.:rolleyes:

Triple_R
2013-06-24, 03:43
This was a pretty good and satisfying penultimate episode. Good cliffhanger end that sets up what should be a solid finale.

This episode was somewhat predictable, but its overall execution was quite satisfying, so that largely made up for the predictability.

I didn't really have a major problem with Chamber so easily going along with Ledo's decision to oppose Striker/Kugel. You could chalk it up to Chamber being programmed to be completely loyal to his pilot no matter what. Or, if you want, you could chalk it up to Chamber being smart enough to tell that something fishy was going on with Striker so that motivated him to take Ledo's position. Perhaps Chamber even feels that Gargantia's ways are ultimately more productive than the society that Striker has set up. In any event, I don't find it that hard to roll with.

The biggest question mark for the finale is that key, and exactly what it will do. It adds a nice touch of uncertainty to what would otherwise be a perhaps overly predictable finale. Oh, I now expect a pretty happy ending here, but who knows what'll happen if and when that key is used.



I wouldn't say it's forgettable, but it did have wasted potential.

It actually almost feels as if there were 4 or 5 different writers writing 4 or 5 completely different stories and then they tried to make them all converge somehow, without really know what the other writer wrote.


You had one thing going on with the space battle and a future Utopian society that's not exactly what it seems.
Then you have the battle-hardened fish out of water story, who is trying to fit into a society that doesn't need him.
Then you have a romance harem slice-of-life antics story trying to squeeze in there.
And then you have the darker, moral-challenging plot line involving the Hideauze and what really makes us human, and where does one draw the line.
And now they've tossed that out AGAIN, to have a humanity vs. enslaving rogue A.I. rebellion storyline where the A.I. is trying to save humanity by taking over it and enforcing its mechanical logic.


They have all these storylines that would have been great plots singularly, but they instead tried to have them all fit in a single cour show, thus every single one of them is only half done and everything becomes haphazard.

This was a good episode, but this has been one off kilter show. I've come this far, I might as well see how it ends.:rolleyes:

To be fair, the only thing here that feels like a bit of a red herring to me is "And then you have the darker, moral-challenging plot line involving the Hideauze and what really makes us human, and where does one draw the line." The debates that this subforum had on this topic seems largely moot now. On the whole, the dark revelation about the Hideauze seems mainly to only be relevant to Ledo's character development, rather than anything tying into a larger theme.

Oh, it's possible that the final episode will delve a bit more back into this, but given that there's still a Striker that needs to be defeated, and a war to be won, and presumably some degree of an aftermath that includes Ledo happily reuniting with Amy and the rest of Gargantia, I doubt they'll have much time to squeeze in much more re-examination of the Hideauze.

Ultimately, this story really is mostly about one teenager/young adult's journey into adulthood, and everything that entails. It's just done against a very fantastical and somewhat dark backdrop, fitting of Gen's writing style and taste.

That being said, this show has been rather bloodless by Gen's standards, and I somehow doubt that the finale will get all that bloody.

However, Gen wanted to write the first and the last episodes, and that along with this mysterious Key plot element does suggest to me that there could be a big surprise or two in the finale.

Om Nerabdator
2013-06-24, 04:00
Great episode, and the first time i actually liked pinion too, he showed himself to be a boss ^^

jeroz
2013-06-24, 05:02
To be fair, the only thing here that feels like a bit of a red herring to me is "And then you have the darker, moral-challenging plot line involving the Hideauze and what really makes us human, and where does one draw the line." The debates that this subforum had on this topic seems largely moot now. On the whole, the dark revelation about the Hideauze seems mainly to only be relevant to Ledo's character development, rather than anything tying into a larger theme.

actually with the recent revelation in the past two episodes, we also need to look at how GA operates and if it's as good as many mistakenly thought it was earlier in the season. Are they really human in those living conditions? Are you willing to say that the people on GA have better life than those who chose to be Evolvers?

Compare with those two, it's easy to see how much better it is on Gargantia without all the stupid inhibitions/restrictions/segregation. We don't know how the life is like as an Evolver, but I certainly would not want to live as part of the lifeless GA

stormy001_M1A2
2013-06-24, 05:11
Good episode, the possibility of Kugel being dead and Striker doing things in his name crossed my mind when Striker first appeared.

My theory for the last episode:
The key that Gargantians have sends a signal to the portal that humans and hideauze used in the past, Ledo and Chamber can't destroy Striker so they plan to send it away from earth.
They use all the power that's left and cross the portal with Striker, the Gargantians close the portal and Ledo, Chamber and Striker are lost forever (or they return to the GA or appear infront of the hideauze)

Happy version:
The same but Chamber ejects Ledo before he starts the plan so he can stay in Gargantia.

This is what I speculated too. LOL

zztop
2013-06-24, 05:52
Ledo:I decide, and you(Chamber)execute(my decisions)…

Assuming Striker operates on the same principle as well, could it mean that all of Striker’s actions in commanding its fleet and enforcing the cult was due to some dying command given by Kugel himself?

Perhaps Kugel started the cult himself, and handed full responsibility to Striker before his death(if the long hair and stubble on Kugel’s corpse was any indication, I’d say he and Striker were out and about on Earth for quite some time before he died, given he was clean shaven and short-haired way back in Ep 1.)

Or was Striker acting independently on its own, falling back on Alliance protocol and tradition to enforce order with the loss of its pilot?

PS. Wonder if the squirrel following Ledo is male...if everything goes well, Grace's gonna get a new partner!

Principalities
2013-06-24, 05:55
Striker's tech spec is waaay above Chamber. Not to mention the vastly superior add-ons such as energy rifle and double shoulder mounted missile pods.... Even with Ledo to pilot, Chamber was struggling all the time. I shudder to think if Kugel was still around to pilot Striker. Chamber would not have stood a chance!

I suspect the Gargantian Fleet key is the means to return to space. Will the Gargantians and Ledo seize the chance to reunite with their space brethren or will they continue to live their own existence on Earth?

SeijiSensei
2013-06-24, 06:30
Here's a question: Why the HECK hasn't Pinion been wearing his hair down? He looks 10 times more awesome, and he seems to have gotten 10 times smarter too. Maybe all that hair gel was affecting his brain...:heh:

Showing my age ...

The first time Pinion appeared he immediately reminded me of early 60's teen heartthrob Edd Byrnes who played the role "Kookie" on a detective series called 77 Sunset Strip (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051247/). Pinion had the same hairdo and the the same obsession with combing his lathered hair. Even though Byrnes couldn't sing a whit, a single was released with pop star Connie Stevens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connie_Stevens) called "Kookie, Kookie, Lend Me Your Comb."

3gDT2Xk5-Oo

Now this all happened decades ago so I doubt anyone associated with Gargantia knew about Byrnes when they designed Pinion, but you never know. Those girls in the audience are collecting Social Security today.

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-24, 06:37
Here's a question: "Rack" and Pinion - intentional pun, or coincidence?

Pocari_Sweat
2013-06-24, 07:13
Here's a question: "Rack" and Pinion - intentional pun, or coincidence?

I think you're just a perverted late 20's man ;)

Guardian Enzo
2013-06-24, 07:22
In all seriousness, do most people know what a rack and pinion is? And would Gen know? It could just be a coincidence.

bastek66
2013-06-24, 07:23
Did you see that?
http://i.imgur.com/w6YUIInl.jpg (http://imgur.com/w6YUIIn)

Jan-Poo
2013-06-24, 07:26
Well, I am surprised no one has brought up the other crazy possibility of a twist ending: Gargantia is a pre-preparation virtual program for those entering Avalon.

I actually thought about that, but the reveal "it was just VR!" has been done before and it never had a good reception.
In the end it isn't much different from the "it was all a dream" which is now universally considered a poor plot device.


actually with the recent revelation in the past two episodes, we also need to look at how GA operates and if it's as good as many mistakenly thought it was earlier in the season. Are they really human in those living conditions? Are you willing to say that the people on GA have better life than those who chose to be Evolvers?

I don't think it's fair to judge the Hideauze by looking at the whalesquids and I don't think it's fair to judge the GA by looking at the cultists of a faulty AI.

Ledo and Kugel weren't cultists, they had a mind of their own (proven by the fact that they both took independent actions), and Avalon is supposed to be an even less militarized place, so I have quite some difficulties at believing that the life in the alliance is the same as Striker's "ideal" society.

Of course I agree that Striker's utopia isn't really much better than the Evolver's.

In all seriousness, do most people know what a rack and pinion is? And would Gen know? It could just be a coincidence.

I didn't know until recently, someone posted a list of names and the explanations, they are all specific names for mechanical parts or tools, sort of. Ridget sounds similar to Widget, Bevel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevel) is related too.
No it's definitely not a coincidence.

andyjay729
2013-06-24, 07:54
Did you see that?
http://i.imgur.com/w6YUIInl.jpg (http://imgur.com/w6YUIIn)

Maybe it wasn't a coincidence how Kamina's seiyuu was chosen for Pinion's role (like how it probably wasn't a coincidence how Squid Girl's seiyuu was chosen for the role of Amy).

A lot of people have noted similarities between Bellows and Yoko Littner, so there could be some shipping possibilities there.

And on the previously linked Wikipedia article about bevels, did anyone notice another carpentry term in the first paragraph called "chamfer"?

jeroz
2013-06-24, 08:48
One thing that bothers me a bit is how alert and focused the head female priestess is. I wonder if there are something that we overlooked

LKK
2013-06-24, 08:52
One thing that bothers me a bit is how alert and focused the head female priestess is. I wonder if there are something that we overlooked
I mentioned something similar yesterday. She seems to have more power, knowledge, & influence than I first thought from her episode 11 debut. I wouldn't be surprised if she turns out to be the cultists' final threat to Gargantia.

Funkatron
2013-06-24, 09:03
I mentioned something similar yesterday. She seems to have more power, knowledge, & influence than I first thought from her episode 11 debut. I wouldn't be surprised if she turns out to be the cultists' final threat to Gargantia.

Most likely she was the one who set up the "religious" aspect of the cult so she had a sliver of power

Jan-Poo
2013-06-24, 09:35
Well she is the head priestess (or so it appears) after all.
And by the way the one who talked to Flange in Ep11 was a different priestess and she acted more or less the same.

Dop
2013-06-24, 09:58
Here's a question: "Rack" and Pinion - intentional pun, or coincidence?

Aargh! I'd totally not noticed that until you mentioned it and then couldn't believe how dense I'd been not to notice it!
If that's a coincidence, it's an amazingly fortuitous one so I'd be more surprised if it wasn't deliberate.

The first time Pinion appeared he immediately reminded me of early 60's teen heartthrob Edd Byrnes who played the role "Kookie" on a detective series called 77 Sunset Strip (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051247/).

Things you don't expect to see on AnimeSuki no. n of x...!

I had thought that Pinion had some kind of 50's greaser style look, but I get your reference too.
Certainly though I think his change of hairstyle reflects his change of heart, and he really shouldn't go back to the greaser look!

Arya
2013-06-24, 10:04
I watched the episodes just lately, without checking the total number of them, (my fault), and I was just preparing myself to a grim period for the cast subjugated to Kugel. Period that would have been solved thanks to Ledo allying with the Earth Hideuze ... instead this grim period is already finished, well it's not even started. :frustrated: :p

Gundamx
2013-06-24, 10:06
Chamber would never behave like Striker as long as Ledo is around. Ledo's arguments and thoughts do actually influence his Machine Caliber.
True since in ep1 Chamber try to control Gargantia by force but Redo refused
(If Redo was dead = another GA fleet)
Champer and Redo at ep1 = GA mentally
(Empire at all out war against race want to wipe them out is not healthy for peace era)

HandofFate
2013-06-24, 11:34
man, Episode 12 was very heavy.
Pinion kind of was a hothead at the beginning of this climax arc, but I think it made the point where he made his decision on what side to go on MUCH more powerful. Best face turn ever.

I'm suddenly imagining this episode everytime the camera focuses on his face and he yells a line, that its a Super Robot Wars cut of him talking before firing something.

Thought it was funny that after taking off the mask, and the paint rubbed off, Pinion turned into a hunky bishonen lol.

Enjoyed Rack's re-entry as a cast member into this whole thing.


It was kind of strongly alluded to. But yea, guy inside Striker is dead.

blakstealth
2013-06-24, 12:18
The fight between Striker and Chamber was pretty cool; it's definitely my favorite fight scene from this show. lol

And I'm very curious about this Stairway to Heaven. It could turn out to be some kind of secret super weapon of mass wubwub or something totally unexpected. Some people here speculated that it's some method to get to space? That would be a pretty interesting twist.

bastek66
2013-06-24, 17:39
http://i.minus.com/i73b7TDctAVDL.gif

triplez
2013-06-24, 21:25
I'd like to know what the Stairway to heaven is. COuld it be a dormant killer satellite? a mech kept in storage?

More likely I believe it is the activation key to the wormhole gate mention in episode 9. IF the $it really hit the fan they can shoved Stryker right through that gate along with Chamber and Ledo.

Problem solved?

Jan-Poo
2013-06-24, 21:38
Wouldn't Oldham be a real dick if he knew the way to send Ledo back home but always kept it for himself?

MeggieMay
2013-06-24, 21:55
Stairway to Heaven sounds to me like a Space Elevator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator) Which might take you up to the wormhole gate but wouldn't necessarily activate it. I guess they could just dump Striker up in orbit but how well that would work, I haven't a clue. Another possibility that comes to mind is it's some sort of communications module, seeing the archival footage seemed to be filmed in front of that mast (I can't find that picture from Ep 9 - does anyone remember what thread that was in?). It might be able to reach deep space and/or it might be able to over-ride the mechs in some way. No idea what is going on here yet, though.

taofd
2013-06-25, 00:05
Here's the mind f**k:

Stairway to Heaven is the hidden technology that allows the creation of symbionts. The Gargantian's are the descendant's of the faction of Evolver scientists that chose to remain on Earth to try to save as many people left as they could.

I think the point Urobuchi is trying to make in this series, is that it's not appearances that matter, but the choices and decisions we make that make us human. There is no sense in surviving if we give up that core aspect of humanity.

monir
2013-06-25, 00:16
I think the point Urobuchi is trying to make in this series, is that it's not appearances that matter, but the choices and decisions we make that make us human. There is no sense in surviving if we give up that core aspect of humanity.

Yeap! Every series I've seen that he has written pretty much carries the same thematic message.

taofd
2013-06-25, 05:04
Yeap! Every series I've seen that he has written pretty much carries the same thematic message.


It's the first series where I've seen him do it so blatantly though... I've always suspected Urobuchi was a little bit of a voluntaryist, but now I'm pretty darn sure.

scr
2013-06-25, 07:01
Ledo, don't waste your time and do the obvious: assume direct control. You're the only Alliance officer around and thus Striker must obey your command.

I totally didn't expect Pinion going Kittan and start kicking ass.


The only thing missing in the asskicking are Luckage's twinks. :D

Cosmic Eagle
2013-06-25, 11:30
I wonder how Ledo didn't succumb to Earth's diseases unlike the Colonel..

FredFriendly
2013-06-25, 11:38
I wonder how Ledo didn't succumb to Earth's diseases unlike the Colonel..

Probably 'cause he's still a virgin.

LKK
2013-06-25, 11:50
I wonder how Ledo didn't succumb to Earth's diseases unlike the Colonel..
We don't know yet that Kugel died of disease. He may have been fatally injured during his arrival on Earth. His life support system may have been damaged, and he died of dehydration, starvation, or asphyxiation. It's also possible that Striker murdered him. We simply don't know yet why Kugel died.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-25, 14:21
And Earth isn't uniformly pestilential.

Student no.0
2013-06-25, 18:59
Pinion and the others backing up Ledo like bros was so awesome. Please don't get Urobutcher'd Pinion :(

Grey
2013-06-25, 19:26
I'd love it if Striker gave a speech to Ledo like Chamber did in episode 10. It probably won't happen. Striker's fleet was too obviously designed to look bad with the grey color scheme and sea-turfing those people. If they wanted to give Striker a compelling speech they would have developed the fleet a little differently and given less focus on that.

It's a shame though. I would've loved a clash of views and arguments between Kugel, Ledo, Striker, and Chamber. But Kugel is dead and I can't expect much from Striker now.

Also: Pinion was pretty cool. And Rackage has nice eyes.

aohige
2013-06-25, 23:15
I'd like to know what the Stairway to heaven is. COuld it be a dormant killer satellite? a mech kept in storage?


Clearly it's a rediscovered phonograph with a Led Zepplin album spinning on it.

We just weren't aware this is yet another Macross Saga.

FlareKnight
2013-06-25, 23:23
Well we knew it would be either Kugel was behind this or he was dead and Striker had gone rogue. Ended up being the latter. It made sense a good way through the fight that Kugel was dead. It just didn't seem like a speech from the guy we saw in episode 1. Not the way I'd imagine him trying to reason with Ledo even if he had gone powerhungry.

This could be a rather large pain to deal with though. Not sure how much stress maneuvers might put on a pilot in those units, but if there are any Striker doesn't have to worry about them. Going to be a tough one for Ledo to win.

Do wonder what this big secret is. The fact that they need Amy's help makes it all the more interesting. Though it could be as simple as needing Amy to fly into the area to tell Ledo how to make use of this Stairway to Heaven. Does sound like some sort of transportation or teleportation device. Maybe they can go and dump Striker into the sun.

Still seems plenty likely the emotional loss we're going to see is having to sacrifice Chamber. The ultimate move by the pilot support system, sacrificing itself to protect its pilot.

ttdestroy
2013-06-26, 03:53
Yeah when Chamber didn't turn on him(like I thought he would), I assumed he was gonna get destroyed. Chamber is pretty much the ultimate bro/wingman.

hai_san
2013-06-26, 04:09
Well whoever Tomokazu Sugita dubs, it is a good guy! ;)

Winterson
2013-06-26, 06:21
I bet the key leads to a chamber where a flying mech is long hidden in which the former captain of Gargantia owns. Meaning, he's also GA soldier and the rest was history. Reason why the doctor and the old captain knew something about the Whalesquid was because Ridget's father was once like Ledo who kept on fulfilling his top priority of killing the Hideaze and soon realized the meaning behind his actions were questionable. Amy will pilot the relic so she can help Ledo, only her is capable of doing it. blah, blah, blah, and so these are just my factual imaginations.

MeisterBabylon
2013-06-26, 08:32
Its just the key to the worm hole that you see in the revelation at Squidnest. When opened, it creates a subspace rift that tears everything in range apart, leaving Ledo to lead Striker into it.

He then is faced with the choice of using the worm hole to jump back home, or stay. :D

rocket
2013-06-26, 10:33
Gotta say this was one of the best episodes I've seen in a long time - as someone put it earlier the train jumped the tracks, but then landed on even better tracks, impressive!

The mutiny unfolded as expected, but was satisfying, and I was actually glad to see the rehabilitation of Pinion and Pirate Queen.

The euthanasia scene was upsetting and effective. Putting the GA's policy's in play among the people of Earth for me really underscored how morally bankrupt and inhuman that society was! Honestly I'm surprised there are still GA supporters in this forum. Kugel's or Striker's intentions or execution quality aside *that* is the true face of the GA and it was very clear we were to be horrified by it.

I actually found the way that Ledo approached Chamber regarding the possibility of combat to be quite effective and tense. It reminded me a bit of a confession scene the way they danced around the question without Ledo committing himself to something that could be considered insubordination or mutiny. I was surprised Chamber gave in, but I suppose that's the risk of a learning machine - as it gathers data and adapts it may realize it can follow orders to maximize happiness with a different definition of happiness.

Was happy to see more Melty and have her be so prominent in the climax because I find her slightly cat-like eyes and quirky smirk to be super cute (and she's the resident twin-tail of the series). I got the sense that she'd been signaling Gargantia for a while before dropping of into exhaustion, so the timing didn't seem ridiculous, but the scene did feel rushed... after all they had to skip the necessary mouth to mouth resuscitation attempt by Amy, or the scene where Amy tenderly undresses her unconscious absent old friend... er... ok I digress but the scene was too rushed, and felt like a coincidence.

Fight scene - awesome! And as expected with critical assists from the rebels.

Kugel's reveal was shocking to Ledo (and surely it's not a coincidence that Kugel got Mami'd), and I think completes the study on the many ways humans can lose their humanity. They can act like animals, they can act like machines, they can become animals, or they can abdicate their decisions to machines. In retrospect Chamber's stirring speech in defense of the GA is now explicitly self serving and clearly the motivation for Striker's actions.

The GA (and it's war against the Squids) is necessary to justify the existence of Machine Calibers.

What comes next? Chamber realizes this and self destructs with Striker?

What's the external power source Chamber identified during the battle?

What secret does Gargantia hold with the key?

I'd like something along the lines of Gargantia opens wormhole gate and we find we're far in the future, the GA has been wiped out and the Squids return to Earth. Seeing what's happening they threaten to destroy all humanity, but Ledo submits himself as the only criminal, and the Gargantians convince the squids of the model of co-exsistence. Ledo's gone, Humanity lives in a 'happy' society, but essentially in a nature preserve maintained by the post-human spacefarers. Shocking, and twisted, but somewhat good end.

However I can't imagine why Gargantia would consider their Stairway to Heaven a tool of last resort if it's only a gate...

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-26, 10:40
What's the external power source Chamber identified during the battle?

I was wondering about this myself, then wondered if I was overinterpreting things...

When that line came up originally, I thought it meant that Striker was getting additional energy beamed to it from some remote location, which would have to be dealt with for Chamber to win.

After watching it again I thought that maybe Chamber meant simply that Striker had been charging itself from some external power source during the past few months, so it had a much higher level of stored energy than Chamber, which had been running on internal reserves the whole time.

...that still would leave the question of what Striker had done to adapt to the local power sources, since it does not seem that so far Chamber and Ledo have managed to do so.

Piesum
2013-06-26, 14:42
With Urobuchi personally writing the last episode of the series, I'm concerned for Red. I'm not sure if it's going to be all smiles and happy ending for him by the end of this.

I can think of five possible endings:

1) Chamber sacrifices himself for Red in order the destroy Striker and Red starts a new life on Gargantia, helping them adapt the tech so humanity can begin to thrive.

2) Both Chamber and Red sacrifice themselves to destroy Striker, and Gargantia and all Earth humanity will be forever changed by the visitors for beyond the stars.

3) The key is used for a warp gateway that Red and Chamber use to get rid of Striker, however they too get sucked in and end up back at the GA. Red uses what he's learned to change the GA and help the rest of humanity stuck in endless battle.

4) The battle is hard and many are lost, but Red with the help of Gargantia is able to destroy Striker. Everyone begins to rebuild and Red finds a new home.

5) Number 4, but at the very end, the GA show up, having traced Kugel and Red's signals.


I've thought of some of these possibilities too. In response to number 3.. Half of me hopes Ledo survives and lives on Gargantia but the other half of me feels like the GA needs a revolution..

Also, unlike most of the comments here, I prefer Pinion with his hair up hahaha. But his personality seems to have at least gotten better haha.

andyjay729
2013-06-26, 20:17
So in the end Gargantia can be summed up with this classic Sesame Street (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpIS5iddctk) sketch...as well as Gen's philosophy to some extent.

"I AM A MA-CHINE. I AM NE-VER WRONG. MA-CHINES ARE BET-TER THAN HU-MANS...BET-TER THAN HU-MANS...BET-TER THAN HU-MANS..."

andyjay729
2013-06-26, 20:23
I've thought of some of these possibilities too. In response to number 3.. Half of me hopes Ledo survives and lives on Gargantia but the other half of me feels like the GA needs a revolution..

Also, unlike most of the comments here, I prefer Pinion with his hair up hahaha. But his personality seems to have at least gotten better haha.

Given Gen's preference for bittersweet endings, I personally think that's how things might end. The key will summon a stargate back to space and both Chamber with Ledo and Striker will get sucked in, with Ledo crushing Striker to "death".

Spectacular_Insanity
2013-06-27, 03:57
I'll admit, the end of this episode made me go "What the fuck?"

So it was the AI support system the entire time? Mind = blown.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-27, 04:57
I was wondering about this myself, then wondered if I was overinterpreting things...

When that line came up originally, I thought it meant that Striker was getting additional energy beamed to it from some remote location, which would have to be dealt with for Chamber to win.

After watching it again I thought that maybe Chamber meant simply that Striker had been charging itself from some external power source during the past few months, so it had a much higher level of stored energy than Chamber, which had been running on internal reserves the whole time.

...that still would leave the question of what Striker had done to adapt to the local power sources, since it does not seem that so far Chamber and Ledo have managed to do so.

Yeah it is wireless energy transmission. As for the power source is likely the solar powered nanomachines the question is the method as the Evolver videos did not show such.

Then again... Earth had space elevators but those as far as we know were destroyed.

NoemiChan
2013-06-27, 05:04
Lols..... the machine was behind everything... It takes normal pressure to behead a rotten corpse...

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-27, 14:12
I think I found out why Chamber wouldn't comment on Kugel.

From LN pictures we know soldiers aren't always inside their Machine Calibers. But during an operation they do keep them in suspended animation.

In Ledo's case it was an emergency measure till rescue came. But resources are finite. How long can Chamber keep recycling air or keep his charge's vitals stable.

Kugel doesn't come out of Striker and is apparently awake. How can Kugel live shut in? Chamber can't prove if Kugel is alive or not to Chamber Kugel is both alive and dead at the same time.

Schrödinger's cat paradox is in effect.

Which is why Chamber can only answer so as far Striker is concerned. While he has suspicions he doesn't have proof about Kugel. But Striker its actions are does not conform to regulations and goes against the purpose of AI priority as Chamber puts it "Protect Human dignity". Pretty much First Law of Robotics there. Why is Striker depicted as a god? When they are merely tools of humans according to Chamber.

triplez
2013-06-27, 19:59
Stryker is portrayed as a god is because i think is how the the fleet that fished the AI out regarded it as such. Who knows. Judging by the carcasses of whalesquids on their ships it's my reasoning that Stryker decimated the whalesquids in the cult's area and transfered the reverance or awe inspiring worship from whalesquids to itself. Plus with the mech on their side the High priestess in charge use Stryker to draw more ships and people to their cause and increasing her own power.

I doubt that all the cult members are their by free choice. You have the pirates becaUSE they can't match the power of Stryker but still wanting to break away at a later date. IF Stryker still wants to fight the Space Hideaze building a second Avalon is probably the best choice.

Remember Chamber suggested Ledo could dominate the more primitive Gargantia with its power. Without Kugel perhaps Stryker went to a default position. By uniting the Earth Stryker will in time get the resources to return to the Galactic Alliance.

Stryker may explain why they still use pilots in their space battles. Without humans the AI might change the parameters of its own programming.

With only one episode left I still hope for that happy ending. The defeat of Stryker. Reconciliation with Gargantia. Pinion hooking up with the pirate. Ledo kissing Amy although if she's too young that would be gross.

It would really be bold if Ledo decides to return to space and attempt to enligthen the folks back home. That would leave the series hanging but more dramatic. Just speculating.

frubam
2013-06-27, 20:53
Well I can see how this is going to end:

LISmPmdUhYA

SeijiSensei
2013-06-27, 21:32
It would really be bold if Ledo decides to return to space and attempt to enligthen the folks back home. That would leave the series hanging but more dramatic. Just speculating.

Not to mention establishing a premise for a sequel.

jeroz
2013-06-28, 04:04
It would really be bold if Ledo decides to return to space and attempt to enligthen the folks back home. That would leave the series hanging but more dramatic. Just speculating.

and no one on board shall listen to him

Jan-Poo
2013-06-28, 08:30
That would be a way to give some kind of "closure" or hope for the early introduced galactic war.

If nothing of that sort happen the ending would be something like: "Rejoice! The cultists have been vanquished and all it's right with the Earth! Yeeeah... there's still Hideauze and Nazi GA killing each others in the galaxy, but who cares?"

rocket
2013-06-28, 09:27
If nothing of that sort happen the ending would be something like: "Rejoice! The cultists have been vanquished and all it's right with the Earth! Yeeeah... there's still Hideauze and Nazi GA killing each others in the galaxy, but who cares?"

There's still a chance for the Squids or Space Nazi's to show up and bring utter despair and futility in the last episode! Or to find out we're far in the future and the war is over with both sides annihilated...

RIXS
2013-06-28, 18:14
I wonder if the Hideauze will make a come back because he said he only eliminated them in that area. :confused:

Guido
2013-06-29, 15:36
Between today and tomorrow Suisei no Gargantia concludes, and I'm in time since I've already done with the twelfth episode.


Several of you people raised an interesting topic at the thread for the previous episode. I do agree that the tactic Kugel employed to implement the GA social order onto the Earth and its people doesn't fall into the category of religion. In fact, ten thousand years ago the very concept of religion did not exist for humans at that time.

What Kugel described in detail how he and Stryker plan to turn the Earth into a second Avalon for the Earthling humans relies on two arguments:

1. Argumentum ad baculum: A very common logical fallacy that appeals to show of force, threat or coercion to justify its reasoning.

2. Argumentum ad verecundiam: Fallacious appeal from authority. This is likely very tricky for me to suggest given that Kugel mostly uses force and instills terror to bring forth a social order that is alien to the native humans from Earth and to which many of them argue against.

However, actually, it's Kugel himself that brings forth the aformentioned argument when Ledo previously tries to appeal to the Commander that the Earthling humans have already established their own societies, hence, they have no right to meddle in Earhtlings' affairs.
Kugel replies back that being soldiers of the Galactic Alliance, and not finding themselves at the frontlines, then they must advance the Earth and its people for the benefit of what constitutes the Galactic Alliance and humanity.

However, I actually brought forth another type of argument reasoning with that above statement.

a) Yes, Kugel as well is using his authority as soldier of the GA to justify his actions on Earth.

b) But, he's also appealing to the argument that what's best and works for the greater good of the majority, then it will also work the same for the minority.

In that last statement, I refer to the Galactic Alliance as the majority of the human race; the first episode it was said that 400 million humans live in Avalon.
The people of Earth I class them as the minority of the human race, although the series doesn't mention at all how many humans survived the cataclysmic Ice Age, and how many descendants of those humans are scattered and living in the Earth in the story's current time.

What works the most efficient and suits well for the Galactic Alliance doesn't do good for the people of Earth. The differences I mentioned them in my previous posts:
1. Space humans and Earthling humans borned and raised in different environments.
2. Space humans have Hideauze as natural predators, so they have to struggle for the fight of their lifetime.
3. In such extreme conditions, I think they had no other choice but looking forward to build their society based on the system that would allow them the highest survival rate.
4. Earhtling humans have no other choice but living on board giant ships to cruise the oceans, as practically all the Earth is covered in water.
5. To Earthling humans their only predators are humans themselves like them, which could be pirates or rival fleet factions warring for water, other resources, or treasures; natural elements like typhoons, tsunamis, and hurricanes can play a dangerous hazard for the survival of Earthling humans. Finally, as long as they do not provoke whalesquids, Earthling humans then do not make enemies of them.

I believe living in space is the more haphazard and adverse environment to dwell than living on Earth. Simply put, they have to create artificial colonies and those colonies must support and sustain the necessary living conditions for space humans to survive, thrive, and reproduce. The conditions I present not only limit to oxygen (air) supply, but also more efficient technology, terraforming the environment, and many other issues.

The Earth itself from what looks and is depicted in the present story is full of all types of natural resources. What the Earthling humans did was to recover their technology to the point of building giant ships to live onboard and to create Yunboro to bring forth treasure from underneath the water's surface. Of course, I do not forget that they can fish their food, they can gather rain water, they built lighter vehicles for air travel like the surf kites, and so on.

The mentality of Space humans based on their environment and surroundings is that of survival through competitive struggle within a cost-benefit efficiency framework.

The mentality of most Earthling humans is centered around relationships, family, and community. By joining their fleets, the humans together can form a large supracommunity that allows for free exchange of relationships, interaction, ideas, work, trade, and etc. Everybody gets involved or participates out of their free will to help the others in need. Their civilization becomes more a community of families joined together that struggle when the need arises and forces them to struggle, but also they live and let live.

Most of these Earthling humans have become so used and accustomed to that kind of society and mentality that for them has turned into a natural lifestyle. However, because Kugel intended to force them into a system and mindset completely alien to them, then friction was both natural and to be expected because they would not agree to the drastic changes that such system entails:

For example, dividing the fleets into separate units for better efficiency or disposing of the weaklings, handicapped, or diseased appealing to the reasoning that doing so increases the chances of humanity itself for survival.
Look how Melty, Flange, and even Pinion became so disgusted when the fleet under Kugel's command disposed of their diseased people; that was the turning point for Pinion to call it quits and to revolt, but only after he heard the plans for insurrection from Lukkage herself.

To me the poignant highlight of this episode was Ledo's moment to make a decision: loyalty towards his former superior officer or protecting the Gargantia and its people because of his newly-found sense for compassion.

This is a very important theme for the series that revolves around coming of age. When the time comes that you have to take that very important step that will shape the rest of your life; when you have eaten the forbidden fruit that is knowledge, and now you're realizing there's another reality that is different from what you were told in the paradise of ignorance; the time when you have been accustomed to live in the dark, but when the light comes and spreads all around you either you choose to remain unmoved or to adapt into the light.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-29, 15:54
Several of you people raised an interesting topic at the thread for the previous episode. I do agree that the tactic Kugel employed to implement the GA social order onto the Earth and its people doesn't fall into the category of religion. In fact, ten thousand years ago the very concept of religion did not exist for humans at that time.

What Kugel described in detail how he and Stryker plan to turn the Earth into a second Avalon for the Earthling humans relies on two arguments:


Except that Stryker wasn't trying to reproduce the GA's social order, where soldiers aren't even full citizens. In the end, for all her talks about the GA, her plan was all just based on power crazed fantasies of being at the top of the ladder. Whether Stryker developed those on her own or as a result of Kugel's own possible descent into madness before his death doesn't matter.

Calca
2013-06-29, 21:23
Skynet took over the colonel's mech!

Guido
2013-06-29, 21:45
Except that Stryker wasn't trying to reproduce the GA's social order, where soldiers aren't even full citizens. In the end, for all her talks about the GA, her plan was all just based on power crazed fantasies of being at the top of the ladder. Whether Stryker developed those on her own or as a result of Kugel's own possible descent into madness before his death doesn't matter.

It is interesting that Calca joked about Stryker being Skynet. No, I think that Stryker is more like the A.I. super computer from I, Robot film. Close to the climax of that film the twisted revelation came that it was the culprit behind the doctor's murder, and if I recall correctly, it planned stealthily to bring forth a sort of efficient order.

Unlike Skynet from the Terminator films, the A.I. from I, Robot came to the conclusion that certain rights and liberties must be suppressed in order for humans not descending into chaos and not to necessarily dispose of them, or that's what I recalled.

Moreover, I can also compare Strykers' actions to Auto the A.I. that controlled the ship in the film Wall-E. Auto did what it did to prevent humanity from reaching Earth, because it was following protocol directives from the ships' creators.

However, like you said Anh_Minh it's irrelevant whether Stryker's recent course of actions involving the Earth and its human population are due either to its own reasoning or following the late Kugels' orders.
- The Earth and GA are located in different locations and environments. So reproducing verbatim and then implementing the same GA system order in Earth in its entirety is not feasible, or that's how I look to it at the short-term.
- I think as well that is irrelevant to go at depth how much authority Stryker exerts, since I consider Machine Calibers pilot by soldiers as War Machines.
- Whatever those power crazed fantasies came from doesn't matter, but Stryker at least must have come to the conclusion that it cannot expect that so called new order to be implemented overnight. It must allow, at least, for a smooth transition so all humans or the majority can adapt into it.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-06-29, 22:16
From Chamber's own reasoning and opinion human dignity and civilization must be protected but he uses that as a validation of his own existence.

Even after being unable to participate in the war Chamber still had purpose. Though his own pilot does his own thing to adapt Chamber himself adapted being part of the community giving his services to the benefit of humanity.

Though he exceeded his own parameters cut off from the Alliance he is still useful to humanity validating his own existence.

Striker on the other hand lost its pilot and directionless. Its purpose in question. Exceeding its parameters reasoning if I can't come to the GA I'll make the GA here on Earth with it on top. Losing the purpose that it is meant to serve humanity.

So I'll make this comparison. Chamber is more akin to a Bolo his purpose is to protect his creators, the humans. Striker is a rampant AI that has deviated much from its original programming which is even violating Alliance military protocols such as being subordinate to the highest authority present.

Anh_Minh
2013-06-30, 05:15
It is interesting that Calca joked about Stryker being Skynet. No, I think that Stryker is more like the A.I. super computer from I, Robot film. Close to the climax of that film the twisted revelation came that it was the culprit behind the doctor's murder, and if I recall correctly, it planned stealthily to bring forth a sort of efficient order.

Unlike Skynet from the Terminator films, the A.I. from I, Robot came to the conclusion that certain rights and liberties must be suppressed in order for humans not descending into chaos and not to necessarily dispose of them, or that's what I recalled.

Moreover, I can also compare Strykers' actions to Auto the A.I. that controlled the ship in the film Wall-E. Auto did what it did to prevent humanity from reaching Earth, because it was following protocol directives from the ships' creators.

However, like you said Anh_Minh it's irrelevant whether Stryker's recent course of actions involving the Earth and its human population are due either to its own reasoning or following the late Kugels' orders.
- The Earth and GA are located in different locations and environments. So reproducing verbatim and then implementing the same GA system order in Earth in its entirety is not feasible, or that's how I look to it at the short-term.
- I think as well that is irrelevant to go at depth how much authority Stryker exerts, since I consider Machine Calibers pilot by soldiers as War Machines.
- Whatever those power crazed fantasies came from doesn't matter, but Stryker at least must have come to the conclusion that it cannot expect that so called new order to be implemented overnight. It must allow, at least, for a smooth transition so all humans or the majority can adapt into it.

But that's the thing. Stryker only cares about military power, which in the present situation is almost superfluous. If it really was trying to remake the GA and was merely in a transitional period, it should have tried to educate as many people as possible on all aspects of technology, so they could reconquer spaceflight.

Stryker wasn't trying to remake the GA anymore than Bob Denard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Denard) was trying to spread the ideals of the French Revolution. It was just a power grab.

Guido
2013-06-30, 14:09
But that's the thing. Stryker only cares about military power, which in the present situation is almost superfluous. If it really was trying to remake the GA and was merely in a transitional period, it should have tried to educate as many people as possible on all aspects of technology, so they could reconquer spaceflight.

Stryker wasn't trying to remake the GA anymore than Bob Denard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Denard) was trying to spread the ideals of the French Revolution. It was just a power grab.

Then, what I can make out of this:

1. Either Stryker became creative in its way of making decisions, hence, came to the conclusion of establishing military might on Earth giving reason to all those power crazed fantasies. Exerting its authority from the GA to turn the Earth into a second Avalon is nothing short, but an excuse and not a real commitment to the cause of humanity. Note that when I mean creative I do not address Stryker suddenly manifested the capability for abstract thought and making flexible decisions.

2. Or Stryker came to the conclusion that Earthling humans are far more chaotic than those comprising the GA, therefore, remaking a social order similar to the GA on Earth both is inefficient and unfeasible; it'll never work out. Hence, coercion and threat through full and brunt military might is the most quick and effective answer. Either you form part of us, or you remain a threat that will be immediately dealt with.

MeggieMay
2013-06-30, 17:25
I played catchup today on the series and had one thing I wanted to put into a thread other than on Ep 13. That is, my thought on seeing 11 & 12 was that Kugel couldn't have cooked up the "religion" that fast. Some of the fleet he had must have had some sort of similar thing going on before he showed up. For one thing a few of those buildings seem to have been designed almost like temples and I don't think Striker would have wasted time building those after she showed up. I think Striker/Kugel used that preexisting situation to get their plans under way.

Which lead to why Striker when crazy and decided she was a goddess of some sort. I'm not convinced things would have ended up as badly as they did had Kugel not died. I really think she took this somewhere beyond what he would have. Then again, part of what may have lead to this mess is Kugel getting rescued by this particular group. If they weren't fairing to well to begin with (we don't know if they were doing as well as Gargantia or not before he arrived), along with having some sort of religious group controlling it, might have been part of the reason Kugel felt the humans needed to have a more GA style structured way of living. If he didn't grasp that that there were deserve groups running around out on the planet, it could explain why he thought so strongly on how to "fix" the problem.