Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel Movie Discussion Thread

[mirakura]

Okay so as my last ditch attempt to turn this topic back into topic I will list my problems with UBW route (not connected to Shirou's ideal) and try to propose solutions to each of them. I hope for a fruitful discussion not a shitstorm. As it i'll be spoiler heavy on the whole vn I will put it spoiler tag. Text wall warning.


Problem: Shirou.
Explanation: From what I understand the "basic" Shriou should be the same at the start of every route. Still his presentation at the beginning of each route varies greatly. In just 4 days of HF he has more emphaty, intelligence and competence than the in entire Fate route. He's also plot dumb, and the heroine he choose shouldn't affect his entire characterization. I'm not talking about his ideal and choices mind you.
Proposed solution: Make his basic character the same and not change it the way vn did. I'll take Miura's post as a good coin on that.

Problem: Saber
Explanation: Saber power level is broken. That should be a fact, and I can accept it because that's the way Type-Moon fighters work. But if you do this- do not give me Kuzuki vs Saber shit, Caster not being able to work a simple spell in (despite having nigh infinite supply of mana, and being able to cast multiple A level spells on a whim in UBW), and not Exaliblasting Archer on the spot in the church.
Proposed solution: Keep it consistent. Keep it simple. Do not treat her as a plot device. 2 options availible: downplay the "the strongest" or play along with it.

Problem: Gilgamesh
Explanation: This is vn problem only. And what i mean is again, consistency. The sadistic, bend on humanity eradication UBW Gil is somewhat different than The pompous, Saber-centered Fate one. I have no hope for this but it really did hurt my reception of UBW on current re-read.

Problem:Kotomine
Explanation: Again, consistency. HF,Fate and UBW Kirei are like two different people. Kotomine from Fate and HF is a spectator who won't take action just cuz he is happily watching the teenagers suffer. He gets active in HF but it's not the mustache twirling let's turn Tohsaka into the grail claunish vilian of UBW.
Proposed solution: Put him even more into background, turn the whole Shinji master and Incomplete grial thing to be Gil's idea, cuz Kirei is there mostly for the lulz, that way you can still guess his mindstate and not make him into a parody. Him sending lancer to help also gives him something deeper than I killed Mufasa now be a good grail.Turn lancer moment of awsome as fending off Gil's attempt's to reach her until Saber gets in or smth?

Problem:Kuzuki
Explanation: Character development: 0 Character info: 0 Character importance: Shriou's projection training bag. Seriously it's not even funny. Also he beat the fraking saber. It's beyond stupid.
Proposed solution: Total eradication or expansion ( I'm begging you Nasu!)

Problem: Incomplete Grail
Explanation: Why is Illya killed? Why is it accounted as Kirei's idea? Why does it even work at all given that he had no problems with her being the grail in Fate?
Proposed solution: Make her die trying to protect hercules, or some accident or god anything.

Problem:Shinji
Explanation: Yes he is a dick allright in all routes. But without the HF Matou family background he is simply a raging lunatic in UBW.
Proposed solution: Easy, include Zouken manipulating him. A nice way to include Zouken in UBW without spoiling Sakura's situation.

Problem:Plot convience
Explanation: Now i'll go into points
1). Saber staying behind to watch EMIYA vs Emiya fight while her master could be raped, dead, beaten or humiliated. Seriously what? You're a knight saber and rin is a princess waiting for help. Yep Lancer went. So what? Shirou's battle is his own now get your ass and do your Duty as your whole characterization would imply.
2). And what's gonna raise a shitstom :heh:
Shirou vs Gil. I'm not complaing about the battle, or that Shirou won or that Gil was badly portrayed ( i do think so but it's important to shirou's ideals so I won't complain), my problem is why the frack did Shirou and Rin go through so much trouble when concentrating their mana supply on Rin stats Saber means exaliblasting the whole fraking mountain. Realita Nua is even a worse offender in this cuz Dragons despite sharing the initial letter with Dicks does not require intercourse. I belive there is no hope in fixing that but given how many times Saber went Exalibur in Fate climax just because of the D, some other explanation than "only shirou can defeat him" would be nice.

And on PS. I really enjoyed UBW despite the above comments. My propositions were meant to criticize the vn, but also to make the Anime a more coherent and enjoyable ride as a whole.


Oh gosh, this is too good :heh::D Ok...


Shirou: Yes, in HF is just, no comment, honestly just too much. Also, Nasu made it so the heroine changes his character because he has to do different things for each one. Saber: She needs to know she did good so in other words: Comfort.
Rin: This is adolescence for which includes: Hormones.
Sakura: She needs to be rescued from the shadow so in other words: Saved
Proposed solution: No such thing, the Shirous in the routes are completely different people, who live different lives. His basic characters are the same it's just how they change throughout the routes. Which are supposed to vary.


Saber: As I stated, thrown around alot in UBW, but she couldn't Excaliblast Archer because 1) She had no master for prana 2) She's drained from resisting command spells and magic from some one from the Age of Gods. Nasu made her powerless so she can get a new master: Rin. She's used as a plot device, yes but if she was too much of a main, she would disturb Rin and Shirou's love(?).
Possible solutions: Leave the romance to Rin and Archer only or keep Saber the way she was in Zero, powerful but not interrupting the plot.
Though, that will ruin UBW's plotline.

Gilgamesh: Gilgamesh in Fate and UBW are vastly different and after all we saw in Zero with his 'you are my possesion Arturia Pendragon, now marry me' attitude, they need to do something about his characterisation. This is fixed in Fate but not in UBW or HF.
Possible solution: Before his battle with Shirou, give him more of his characterisation.

Kotomine: I hardly know the guy so, no comment.


Kuzuki: He doesn't have any characterisation in any of the routes but it UBW we know he loves Caster and when did he beat Saber? After all the talk of 'a human can't beat a servant', he beats her? That shows how much the plot differs from the others and from facts which isn't good.
Possible solution: Make Saber stronger than him, she's not a weak person, she has prana burst, and although Kuzuki is helped by Caster's magic, most of Saber's levels are rank A.


Ilya: She has to be killed because she's a plot device, it's Kirei's plan, probably just for the lolz.

Shinji: There's alot of characters that need to be pushed to the sides so the plot can work and Shinji is one of them. He has his time in HF. But he's supposed to end up as the fake Grail's vessel in UBW. That's why he's there, no deeper reason. Your solution though is a good one.

Plot convenience:
1) She knows Rin can take care of her self and she still thinks she should protect Shirou. Also, she doesn't know where Rin is any way.

2) Although the routes weren't supposed to be compared, it's a big problem. And dragons in her origin(I think, it hint that any way), same for fishes(lol) and Rin, I think. Has nothing to do with the D. The 'only Shirou can defeat him' makes no sense as it has been said before 'a human cannot beat a Servant'. That logic is only kept in Fate, for some reason. Simplest way of defeating Gil, Avalon + Excalibur, easy. But of course, Saber is just used as a plot device in UBW, so it's expected.

The things you have brought up are what I've been arguing(half or some of the time). They honestly are just for plot convenience, and it seems the only reason they chose UBW was for a Rin route and for action.

[scyllus]

Mirakura: On Shirou- read the first 4 days of Fate, and the first 4 days of HF again. I wasn't talking about his development but his basic persona which went from sexist helpless teen to emphatic mature guy on Nasu's whim.He suddenly asks the right questions, treats Saber as a full blown partner and doesn't treat women as some alien species designed to make him blush. In 4 days, not including the romance.
Exaliblasting the archer was supposed to occur after she gained Rin's mastership before he used UBW.

EDIT:Sorry for the D comment, i misread your explanation :heh:

[mirakura]

Mirakura: On Shirou- read the first 4 days of Fate, and the first 4 days of HF again. I wasn't talking about his development but his basic persona which went from sexist helpless teen to emphatic mature guy on Nasu's whim.He suddenly asks the right questions, treat Saber as a full blown partner and doesn't treat women as some alien species designed to make him blush. In 4 days, not including the romance.
The D thing was a joke, actually but analyze the climax again. Exaliblasting the archer was supposed to occur after she gained Rin's mastership before he used UBW.

Brain's fuzzy, I knew I was probably getting things in the wrong order as I haven't read UBW in a while and don't have time either. Yes, I see that now. Basic Shirou in Fate and UBW is very different from the one in HF, that's also done for convenience as Nasu wanted Shirou to be more mature at the beginning of HF so the route could go the way it did. Which still isn't right and destorys it for the readers. And yeah, HF is batshit crazy, it's doesn't link to any of the routes well. What you've mentioned is a problem throughout the whole VN not just UBW, so they probably won't solve it in the new anime and movie(s). Nasu has thought of that though, he's said Shirou would be more of a main, most likely meaning his character will start making more sense altogether rather than acting different for convenience.

The thing about Excalibur is that it takes some time to power up. Well it probably doesn't but for action and badass sake, they make it take a lot of time. And for convenience sake.

[chaos_alfa]

Brain's fuzzy, I knew I was probably getting things in the wrong order as I haven't read UBW in a while and don't have time either. Yes, I see that now. Basic Shirou in Fate and UBW is very different from the one in HF, that's also done for convenience as Nasu wanted Shirou to be more mature at the beginning of HF so the route could go the way it did. Which still isn't right and destorys it for the readers. And yeah, HF is batshit crazy, it's doesn't link to any of the routes well. What you've mentioned is a problem throughout the whole VN not just UBW, so they probably won't solve it in the new anime and movie(s). Nasu has thought of that though, he's said Shirou would be more of a main, most likely meaning his character will start making more sense altogether rather than acting different for convenience.

It isn't clear if Nasu or someone from Ufotable has said this.

A lengthily list of sweet scandalous details have been leaked from the latest volume of Type Moon Ace regarding the upcoming Fate/Stay Night anime by Ufotable, and some other Fate creations in the making.
Skipping the superfluous and getting straight to the details:

– The Fate/Stay Night anime series is due Fall 2014
– The director is Takahiro Miura (the guy who directed Kara no Kyoukai’s 6th film)
– Character designs are done by Tomonori Sudo, Hisayuki Tabata, and Atsushi Ikariya.
– Half the scenario is completed.
– Voice recording began Fall 2013.
– Some episodes have already been completed.
– They’re doing an original route with this adaption. The original content is done by Nasu.
– There are new costume designs – modern casual wear for Shirou and Rin and some jacket for casual Saber.
– The atmosphere will be serious, similar to Fate/Zero, but will have some comical moments.
– Fans will feel the connection to Fate/Zero.
– They want to portray Shirou properly as a main character.

[GreyZone]

The "Shirou as a better main character" thing was said by someone from ufotable.

[kenshinstyle]

The thing about nasuverse is that compatibility plays a huge part in battles and powerlevels are very unstable and flexible because of that. People who are unfamiliar with the nasuverse and had only watched fate/zero before would probably go "lolnasu highschool kid wiped the floor with the fuking king of heroes? lol gen somuchbetterwriter" I mean you just have to look at shiki from tsukihime or kara no kyoukai to know powerlevels doesn't mean shit. If the opponent is very compatible against you (natural enemy), then you are probably going to get owned regardless if you are a heroic spirit or dead apostle ancestor.

[XFire]

The thing about nasuverse is that compatibility plays a huge part in battles and powerlevels are very unstable and flexible because of that. People who are unfamiliar with the nasuverse and had only watched fate/zero before would probably go "lolnasu highschool kid wiped the floor with the fuking king of heroes? lol gen somuchbetterwriter" I mean you just have to look at shiki from tsukihime or kara no kyoukai to know powerlevels doesn't mean shit. If the opponent is very compatible against you (natural enemy), then you are probably going to get owned regardless if you are a heroic spirit or dead apostle ancestor.

Isn't Shiki the guy whose head would explode if he fought a Heroic Spirit? Unless its the girl Shiki, then she can run away from one or something. This was like a huge debate a while ago till the type-MOON came out and explained it, right?

[kenshinstyle]

Isn't Shiki the guy whose head would explode if he fought a Heroic Spirit? Unless its the girl Shiki, then she can run away from one or something. This was like a huge debate a while ago till the type-MOON came out and explained it, right?

You misunderstand my post. I'm not saying shiki can beat heroic spirits. My point is compatibility plays a huge part in battles. For instance, against dead apostle ancestor that don't have skills like instinct and eye of mind, etc. but have uber regen and immortality have weak compatibility against someone like shiki because he has a higher chance of succeeding a sneak attack against someone like that. And because of his eyes, the DAA' regen and immortality is useless. However, against a heroic spirit with skills like EoM and instinct, etc, shiki (this is ignoring the overflow of his mind exploding) most likely would be killed when attempting a sneak attack.

Servants and DAA are around the same level, but compatibility plays a huge part if not the deciding factor of the fight. That's what I like about type-moon, nothing is absolute. Even if you are very strong in general, you never know when some unknown highschool brat with just the ability to counter you would appear and just kick your ass.

[scyllus]

You misunderstand my post. I'm not saying shiki can beat heroic spirits. My point is compatibility plays a huge part in battles. For instance, against dead apostle ancestor that don't have skills like instinct and eye of mind, etc. but have uber regen and immortality have weak compatibility against someone like shiki because he has a higher chance of succeeding a sneak attack against someone like that. And because of his eyes, the DAA' regen and immortality is useless. However, against a heroic spirit with skills like EoM and instinct, etc, shiki (this is ignoring the overflow of his mind exploding) most likely would be killed when attempting a sneak attack.

Servants and DAA are around the same level, but compatibility plays a huge part if not the deciding factor of the fight. That's what I like about type-moon, nothing is absolute. Even if you are very strong in general, you never know when some unknown highschool brat with just the ability to counter you would appear and just kick your ass.

Okay Kenshin I can get behind what youre saying. And frankly Shirou beating Gil didn't bother me as much as going for a very risky gamble, while having an easy (Saber) and safe bet around. And to your point: Yes, T-M fan can go around and explain various things with overall knowledge of the Nasuverse. My point was that a) UBW doesn't really have a convincing explanation for it (so it'll work cuz archer said so?)-it would sound convinincing if it was archer who fought, but it really was just a tennager 10-days in training b) try thinking about casuals and f/z watchers. I was thinking about in lines of some plotexcuse that Saber just cannot exaliblast the whole mountain to pieces. Just to keep it somewhat together with Fate.

[kenshinstyle]

Okay Kenshin I can get behind what youre saying. And frankly Shirou beating Gil didn't bother me as much as going for a very risky gamble, while having an easy (Saber) and safe bet around. And to your point: Yes, T-M fan can go around and explain various things with overall knowledge of the Nasuverse. My point was that a) UBW doesn't really have a convincing explanation for it (so it'll work cuz archer said so?) b) try thinking about casuals and f/z watchers. I was thinking about in lines of some plotexcuse that Saber just cannot exaliblast the whole mountain to pieces. Just to keep it somewhat together with Fate.

Did you read the visual novel? During the fight with gil inside ubw, it is explained why ubw is overwhelming gate of babylon. Basically, ubw is faster with its raining swords and shirou drawing the swords since they are inside the reality marble. Gil have to draw his weapons from the GoB which is a little slower than shirou can swing at him. So, the rain of swords from GoB is negated by the rain of swords from ubw and at the same time shirou is drawing faster than gil and swinging at him, forcing him into defense mode. EDIT: Shirou isn't really a teenager with 10 days in training since he had leeched battle experience and skills from archer by then.

If ufotable wants to cater to the casuals, they would have maybe someone like Rin explain why shirou is gil's natural enemy and how ubw is a counter to gob. Actually, in the visual novel, rin did explain on archer and shirou being gil's natural enemy and how he tried to kill both of them in einzbern's castle as he sees them as a threat. So, ufotable can just adapt that scene so it won't be too jarring for fate/zero watchers when gil gets owned.

As for saber being a "safer" bet against gil, it was also explained by shirou in the VN that archer or shirou himself have the best chance against gil. IIRC, he said something along the lines of gil's strength being like a army-kind-of-strength (rain of swords), so saber has bad compatibility against him, which we saw its true in fate.

Of course, I'm not saying shirou is stronger than saber or gil. Like I said before, it's all about compatibility. If gil fought seriously from the start to kill shirou, no doubt he would have won. But that's not how the fight went, the fact is gil toyed with shirou and when he realized he needs to get serious, it was already too late since they are already inside ubw. So, that doesn't mean shirou is stronger than gil, however it also means that ubw and shirou is gil's natural enemy. Gotta give credit where it's due.

[7kneeman]

Just an amateur opinion in a few lines on the topics recent spoken on. Also likely not going to read replies, don't bother. Also this is words spoken to the wind not to your ears lightly whispered.

1: philosophy and such and such. it is fiction,I find when contested starting with the most amoral, then comparing that with the results is the easiest way to casually discuss. If the facts are on dispute there is no point to the discussion at that level in the first place.

2. The stories and such. For each route, assuming no knowledge, it should be trivial to fix.

3. The fights and such. In any exchange usually in this series the attacks seem to hold an attack power able of deciding with any individual strike. With that in mind the issue is usually a matter of hitting rather than out classing.

To clarify why in 1, as a baseline. Be wary of anchoring.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Did you read the visual novel? During the fight with gil inside ubw, it is explained why ubw is overwhelming gate of babylon. Basically, ubw is faster with its raining swords and shirou drawing the swords since they are inside the reality marble. Gil have to draw his weapons from the GoB which is a little slower than shirou can swing at him. So, the rain of swords from GoB is negated by the rain of swords from ubw and at the same time shirou is drawing faster than gil and swinging at him, forcing him into defense mode. EDIT: Shirou isn't really a teenager with 10 days in training since he had leeched battle experience and skills from archer by then.

If ufotable wants to cater to the casuals, they would have maybe someone like Rin explain why shirou is gil's natural enemy and how ubw is a counter to gob. Actually, in the visual novel, rin did explain on archer and shirou being gil's natural enemy and how he tried to kill both of them in einzbern's castle as he sees them as a threat. So, ufotable can just adapt that scene so it won't be too jarring for fate/zero watchers when gil gets owned.

As for saber being a "safer" bet against gil, it was also explained by shirou in the VN that archer or shirou himself have the best chance against gil. IIRC, he said something along the lines of gil's strength being like a army-kind-of-strength (rain of swords), so saber has bad compatibility against him, which we saw its true in fate.

Of course, I'm not saying shirou is stronger than saber or gil. Like I said before, it's all about compatibility. If gil fought seriously from the start to kill shirou, no doubt he would have won. But that's not how the fight went, the fact is gil toyed with shirou and when he realized he needs to get serious, it was already too late since they are already inside ubw. So, that doesn't mean shirou is stronger than gil, however it also means that ubw and shirou is gil's natural enemy. Gotta give credit where it's due.

Basically it comes down to Gilgamesh has no close quarter combat skills to speak of, even in F/Z he never actually fought close quarters, which probably why he is a Archer.

Shirou's abilities are actually quite hax for a human he doesn't just copy the weapon he traces he actually copies the original owners combat techniques and parameters to wield the weapon at roughly the same profiencicy as them (worse than they could but still impressively), this is explained in HF and alluded to in the rest of routes. It's part of why he's a faker he can imitate most heroic spirits to a ridiculous degree utterly inferior but imitate none the less. It was this skill gap that was reason why he could completely overwhelm Gilgamesh in close quarters. Gilgamesh was using a bunch of random swords that he had no real proficiency in and had not mastered.

Gil was overconfident, this means he barely used Ea which would have frankly destroyed Shirou head on and he wore no armor. All this combined with UBW compatibility with GoB allowed Shirou to close the gap and enter close quarter combat which Gilgamesh utterly fails at. Armour would have allowed Gilgamesh to survive the onslaught and take out Ea but again Gilgamesh was overconfident which was the cause of his ruin.

Shirou was a direct counter and gilgameshe's overconfidence was why gil lost. Even then a serious gil would have won.

[kenshinstyle]

Basically it comes down to Gilgamesh has no close quarter combat skills to speak of, even in F/Z he never actually fought close quarters, which probably why he is a Archer.

Shirou's abilities are actually quite hax for a human he doesn't just copy the weapon he traces he actually copies the original owners combat techniques and parameters to wield the weapon at roughly the same profiencicy as them (worse than they could but still impressively), this is explained in HF and alluded to in the rest of routes. It's part of why he's a faker he can imitate most heroic spirits to a ridiculous degree utterly inferior but imitate none the less. It was this skill gap that was reason why he could completely overwhelm Gilgamesh in close quarters. Gilgamesh was using a bunch of random swords that he had no real proficiency in and had not mastered.

Gil was overconfident, this means he barely used Ea which would have frankly destroyed Shirou head on and he wore no armor. All this combined with UBW compatibility with GoB allowed Shirou to close the gap and enter close quarter combat which Gilgamesh utterly fails at. Armour would have allowed Gilgamesh to survive the onslaught and take out Ea but again Gilgamesh was overconfident which was the cause of his ruin.

Shirou was a direct counter and gilgameshe's overconfidence was why gil lost. Even then a serious gil would have won.

I'm aware of all that, so you're agreeing with me right? Since you're saying what I had just said.

[GreyZone]

One thing I don't understand though, is why Gilgamesh did not use his chains BEFORE he was sucked into the darkness.

[GDB]

Because they're chains. They wouldn't do anything to Shirou since he'd just sword rain them into oblivion. They're only better than steel against divinity, which Shirou is not. It only worked at the end because Shirou was exhausted and drained.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

One thing I don't understand though, is why Gilgamesh did not use his chains BEFORE he was sucked into the darkness.

Chains is an anti divine weapon, it's mostly useless against Shirou who has servant like abilities but isn't actually divine. The only reason it worked at the end was because Shirou was exhausted and couldn't resist.

I'm aware of all that, so you're agreeing with me right? Since you're saying what I had just said.

Yeah was just adding to it so he would understand.

[scyllus]

Yeah was just adding to it so he would understand.

That's directed at me right?
Guys, have you read my posts allright? Nowhere did i state that shirou cannot defeat gil or that the battle was stupid. It was all right.
I was talking about taking UBW to screen and changing a few bits just to make it consitent within UBW.
Is it stated what did Shirou leech out of Archer? His battle experience?Sacrifices he had made to reach hero status? Training as a magi? Yep UBW is a weapon of total destruction against Gil, and I didn't dispute it. My beef was that a casual viewer with no prior knowledge of Nasuverse, could have troubles accepting it, more so if he watched f/z or fate/deen Saber in action. That focusing Rin's and Shirou prana on Shirou is a better idea , within UBW ,than processing it all to Saber, as stated within route, under Rin's Mastership the strongest servant. This was a gamble, it had some nice points, but all in all was more risky than the Saber explanation. And I'm not saying that you have to change the climax, just add some plot reason why is it better this way.Tenchi Hou Take point on projecting wielder exp. is a very good explanation, but it's not realy stated in UBW. It's a part of HF, and my whole point of this discussion was to make UBW an even better screening experience, on it's own.

[GreyZone]

That's directed at me right?
Guys, have you read my posts allright? Nowhere did i state that shirou cannot defeat gil or that the battle was stupid. It was all right.
I was talking about taking UBW to screen and changing a few bits just to make it consitent within UBW.
Is it stated what did Shirou leech out of Archer? His battle experience?Sacrifices he had made to reach hero status? Training as a magi? Yep UBW is a weapon of total destruction against Gil, and I didn't dispute it. My beef was that a casual viewer with no prior knowledge of Nasuverse, could have troubles accepting it, more so if he watched f/z or fate/deen Saber in action. That focusing Rin's and Shirou prana on Shirou is a better idea , within UBW ,than processing it all to Saber, as stated within route, under Rin's Mastership the strongest servant. This was a gamble, it had some nice points, but all in all was more risky than the Saber explanation.Tenchi Hou Take point on projecting wielder exp. is a very good explanation, but it's not realy stated in UBW. It's a part of HF, and the my whole point of this discussion was to make UBW an even better screening experience, on it's own.

I think the only thing that Shirou learned is the battle style that most suits him. He basically "cheated" by copying his future self's battle tecniques, which are, naturally, most suited for him. Because it was adapted to be used most efficiently by Emiya Shirou('s body and mind), he was easily able to learn it. I don't see what the problem is with that...

[scyllus]

The problem is the suspension of disbelief.
His "cheatings" are a great way to support his ability to fend off Kuzuki.
But given "human can't beat servants" and the fact that your point doesn't make him really any different than a teenager 10-days in training, the gamble sounds a bit plotforced. That's all I was saying.

EDIT: Kirei was a high level inquistior (and didn't he survive only thanks to his grail heart?), Kuzuki was pure plotforced bullshit, and Rin still had like 10x intelligence than Shirou, and didn't match Caster's level without tricks at all. And Shirou just started adapting Archers battle style, and wasn't even able to defeat Kuzuki, despite his absorbance of his ideal battle style.

PS. My point is probably going to be misunderstood again. I'm not against Shriou vs Gil at the climax. All I want is some subtle changes to make him a real threat to gil, not out plot reasons.

[GDB]

Kirei curbstomped Assassin. Kuzuki, admittedly with enhancements from Caster, bitch slapped Saber. Rin was about half a second away from finishing off Caster. "Humans cannot beat Servants" is hogwash. All it means is that Servants are superior, and NORMALLY wouldn't lose to a human.

[Cherry_Lover]

Shirou maybe didn't say "I'm going to let these people die because if I don't Sakura will die instead", but his action speak that he would coldly choose to kill them if he had to choose between them and Sakura. Totally opposite of what Kiritsugu did in F/Z when Grail ask him to choose between 2/3'rds of Mankind and what is important to him.

That's the entire point of HF - deny everyone else for yourself and for what you think it's important to you. Totally opposite of Fate where you put your own life in defense of others.

Nope. Shirou would not have just murdered innocent civilians to protect Sakura. Nothing in the story ever implies that. He wants to save Sakura, yes, but he also wants to save those people.

There is a big difference between refusing to murder an innocent person in cold blood because they are a potential danger, and actively murdering innocent people to ensure someone you love survives. Shirou in HF would not do the first, but nor would he do the second.

Sakura may be an innocent victim in HF, but after all she survived in that route she was better off dead in the end. That's at least my opinion.

What? What the hell makes you think that?

There's this thing called temporary insanity. Look it up.

Sure, but if someone commits a crime when temporarily insane, you don't then lock them up for it after the fact, because they're no longer insane. And, at the time, Shirou could hardly take Sakura to a mental institution, since they are not equipped to deal with Magi.

That's not to say he should have killed her from the get go, Archer even told him what he should have done, made absolute insurance that Sakura (or rather what was inside) killed nobody and if it did kill someone it should be Shirou followed by her death. He chose not to do this and in doing so thousands of lives were lost and he barely managed to avert loss of the lives of billions.

Shirou didn't know what was inside Sakura. Stop acting like Shirou was omniscient....

Shirou tried to do that, but as far as he could tell Sakura was fine. She wasn't killing anyone, she was just sleeping in her bed.

That's what happened in HF. A normal person does allow the person the loves even if it's not really them kill thousands of people and completely ignore it. Those people aren't quite normal any more.

Again, Shirou doesn't "allow" it. Shirou has no idea that Sakura is even involved in it until the end.

That's not what would happen under normal circumstances, generally Sakura would detained the moment it was even remotely implied she was a threat and by that I mean 24 hour surveillance not the willfully negligent shit Shirou did.

Who, exactly, was going to keep watch on her 24/7? They had a Grail War to deal with, remember, and as far as they could tell Sakura was just fine at that point. Further, treating her like a criminal and locking her up would have made her mental state worse, and that would not have been good for any of them.

Plus, that wouldn't have helped in any case, because Sakura did not need to be physically present for the Shadow to show up. She could have been locked up in the house and the Shadow could still have attacked people.

That's what Archer told Shirou to do and also what Shirou didn't do.

Actually, no, it's not what Archer told him to do. It's what he said he'd do himself. And, he did try. The problem is that he didn't understand the true nature of the threat that Sakura posed. He thought it was a matter of just keeping her in the house.

Yes, I would gladly(no gladly but you know what I mean) sacrifice my family for the sake of the world. Or my brother for the sake of 1 billion. Thing is, eventually they will die and it's for the sake of 1 bilion people who could do so much more. It's a heart breaking decision but, if after you sacrificed the people, and you saw all their faces, every single one, when you killed them/sacrificed them, what would you do? Yes but of course Shirou didn't think of that as no matter what you say, even if you classify the routes in ages, Shirou is not an adult. He doesn't seem to understand how big and important that many people are. And in the end, you never know if the core of this idealism in trying to be heroic around Sakura which is even worse.

About the mother thing, if the mothers of the billion people saw Shirou and his decisions, don't you think they will do something about it. It's their beloved children and he sacrificed all of them for a girl. Of course when you look into it, it's very deep, but still selfish. And when you look at it from the out side, it's like this:

A billion people, for a girl?

And if looked deeper it would be this:

A billion people, for a girl you truly love?

Or the way I see it:


One whole BILLION, who could do so many things, for a girl who you've only known for about a year and a half. Who would do what? Satisfy him!

Sorry, this is just utter bullshit misrepresentation. Shirou should absolutely not murder an innocent person in cold blood. Full stop. At no point does he ever say "I'm going to let billions of people die for Sakura", he simply attempts to save both.

Mirakura: Is it that bad:P? I am reading the vn back to back while posting it :P

No, it's not, he's just massively misrepresenting what happened.

[mirakura]

Kirei curbstomped Assassin. Kuzuki, admittedly with enhancements from Caster, bitch slapped Saber. Rin was about half a second away from finishing off Caster. "Humans cannot beat Servants" is hogwash. All it means is that Servants are superior, and NORMALLY wouldn't lose to a human.

Haha, funny.



Sorry, this is just utter bullshit misrepresentation. Shirou should absolutely not murder an innocent person in cold blood. Full stop. At no point does he ever say "I'm going to let billions of people die for Sakura", he simply attempts to save both.



No, it's not, she's just massively misrepresenting what happened.

No, I know he didn't say it, but his actions did. Plus, it's been stated over and over again, I'm not the only one who's interpreted it that way, and it's not wrong because Nasu hasn't said anything about it.Now time to stop as it's on to a new topic. Unless you want all of scyllus' effort to go to waste.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

That's directed at me right?
Guys, have you read my posts allright? Nowhere did i state that shirou cannot defeat gil or that the battle was stupid. It was all right.
I was talking about taking UBW to screen and changing a few bits just to make it consitent within UBW.
Is it stated what did Shirou leech out of Archer? His battle experience?Sacrifices he had made to reach hero status? Training as a magi? Yep UBW is a weapon of total destruction against Gil, and I didn't dispute it. My beef was that a casual viewer with no prior knowledge of Nasuverse, could have troubles accepting it, more so if he watched f/z or fate/deen Saber in action. That focusing Rin's and Shirou prana on Shirou is a better idea , within UBW ,than processing it all to Saber, as stated within route, under Rin's Mastership the strongest servant. This was a gamble, it had some nice points, but all in all was more risky than the Saber explanation. And I'm not saying that you have to change the climax, just add some plot reason why is it better this way.Tenchi Hou Take point on projecting wielder exp. is a very good explanation, but it's not realy stated in UBW. It's a part of HF, and my whole point of this discussion was to make UBW an even better screening experience, on it's own.
It is stated Archer's battle techniques and etc leaked out, not everything since he is still significantly weaker but a lot. It's a major point in his battle and in the story itself.

What your talking about with Rin makes no logical sense. Rin beat caster because caster can't actually physically fight. Shirou beat Gilgamesh because Gilgamesh can't fight in close quarters. Rin didn't simply outsmart Caster she was better than Caster at one specific thing. The exact same thing Shirou did even then that only worked due to gil's overconfidence.

Also you didn't pay attention what I said. Shirou copies almost ANY servants fighting style when it traces. It's why he could chop of berserker's arm with Caliburn, because of Saber's skill and A rank strength. Shirou is not a medicore fighter when he traces he's actually quite potent, it just puts a massive strain on his body which is why Archer does not do it, as it involves using fighting styles his body is not used to.

[Ragna92]

My beef was that a casual viewer with no prior knowledge of Nasuverse, could have troubles accepting it, more so if he watched f/z or fate/deen Saber in action. That focusing Rin's and Shirou prana on Shirou is a better idea , within UBW ,than processing it all to Saber, as stated within route, under Rin's Mastership the strongest servant. This was a gamble, it had some nice points, but all in all was more risky than the Saber explanation. And I'm not saying that you have to change the climax, just add some plot reason why is it better this way.Tenchi Hou Take point on projecting wielder exp. is a very good explanation, but it's not realy stated in UBW. It's a part of HF, and my whole point of this discussion was to make UBW an even better screening experience, on it's own.

Are you trying to say Saber should've got the prana instead of Shirou? From what I remember in the UBW route itself Shirou stated that Gil cannot be defeated by a servant that can't fight against an army. The only way to match him is with an army itself. Shirou was pretty much the only one who could defeat him in that route.

[scyllus]

2). And what's gonna raise a shitstom
Shirou vs Gil. I'm not complaing about the battle, or that Shirou won or that Gil was badly portrayed my problem is why the frack did Shirou and Rin go through so much trouble when concentrating their mana supply on Rin stats Saber means exaliblasting the whole fraking mountain.His Rin h-scene does implify some serious brain damage but the bone of his sword is working all right. Realita Nua is even a worse offender in this cuz Dragons despite sharing the initial letter with Dicks do not require intercourse. I belive there is no hope in fixing that but given how many times Saber went Exalibur in Fate climax just because of the D, some other explanation than "only shirou can defeat him" would be nice.

That was my starting point. UBW and Fate in context. As I changed my point to make UBW work better in UBW- i still insist to make Shirou more capable to make the final battle more logical. Not really changing it at all.

EDIT: Tenchi Hou Take : but i gave you credit that the projection wielder exp. is a nice explanation as to why he can fight with gil and archer on equal terms. The point was that the way UBW really works was explained in HF not in UBW route.Also on Avalon: i'm not entirely sure but Saber should be aware of it since Berserker vs Saber fight, not to mention thats much more logical for the fact she stayed behind to watch AxShirou fight. For Rin: It's similiar to the Gil vs Shirou battle. Caster belittled rin and paid the price. It doesn't change the fact that Rin was staking all on it as a part of her plan. Shirou pulls things like caliburn on a whim, with almost no training or battle exp. EMIYA is a natural enemy of Gil, Shirou is a bit plotforced-because the mechanics behind his way of fighting are not fully explained in UBW at all.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

2). And what's gonna raise a shitstom
Shirou vs Gil. I'm not complaing about the battle, or that Shirou won or that Gil was badly portrayed ( i do think so but it's important to shirou's ideals so I won't complain), my problem is why the frack did Shirou and Rin go through so much trouble when concentrating their mana supply on Rin stats Saber means exaliblasting the whole fraking mountain.His Rin h-scene does implify some serious brain damage but the bone of his sword is working all right. Realita Nua is even a worse offender in this cuz Dragons despite sharing the initial letter with Dicks do not require intercourse. I belive there is no hope in fixing that but given how many times Saber went Exalibur in Fate climax just because of the D, some other explanation than "only shirou can defeat him" would be nice.

That was my starting point. UBW and Fate in context. As I changed my point to make UBW work better in UBW- i still insist to make Shirou more capable to make the final battle more logical. Not really changing it at all.

Shirou needs UBW to beat gil (or to even fight gil), he can't do that in his current body without Rin's prana, he eventually grows up with a body strong enough to do it but he can't do it currently.

Excaliblast is useless against gil, Fate route already showed this. The only chance Saber has is Avalon and because Shirou didn't spend his time learning about saber in this route like Fate route he can't give saber Avalon. he doesn't even know of it's existence until Archer tells him.

[GreyZone]

I hope one day I will understand how Shirou's "20 magic units" were able to fill up all of Saber's "1000 magic units"... I don't remember anything about Avalon supplying the user with pure magical energy... and in the fight against beserker in Fate this would also be useless... I mean really... even if Shirou used up all his "20 magic units" for Saber, he would 1) not have enough mana for projection and 2) it would barely be 2% of Saber's maximum that she receives...

With Rin it was at least logical... because in UBW at least the one with more "magic units" was the one to give them away.

[mirakura]

I hope one day I will understand how Shirou's "20 magic units" were able to fill up all of Saber's "1000 magic units"... I don't remember anything about Avalon supplying the user with pure magical energy... and in the fight against beserker in Fate this would also be useless... I mean really... even if Shirou used up all his "20 magic units" for Saber, he would 1) not have enough mana for projection and 2) it would barely be 2% of Saber's maximum that she receives...

With Rin it was at least logical... because in UBW at least the one with more "magic units" was the one to give them away.

Said before, Nasuverse doesn't make sense. Also, Saber's got more that 1000 magic units, she just said she had that much at the moment, normally she would have a full magical core. Which is....I don't know how many magical units but I do know it's alot. There's no reasonable answer for that, as it makes no sense.

[GDB]

I thought it was the power of magic semen, not 20 magic units?

[Tenchi Hou Take]

I hope one day I will understand how Shirou's "20 magic units" were able to fill up all of Saber's "1000 magic units"... I don't remember anything about Avalon supplying the user with pure magical energy... and in the fight against beserker in Fate this would also be useless... I mean really... even if Shirou used up all his "20 magic units" for Saber, he would 1) not have enough mana for projection and 2) it would barely be 2% of Saber's maximum that she receives...

With Rin it was at least logical... because in UBW at least the one with more "magic units" was the one to give them away.

Saber has a lot of magical energy, Avalon itself comes with a lot (these are "god" forged weapons afterall).

Think of F/Z Iskander was talking taking very small amounts of Prana from Waver he was using almost entirely his own reserves.

[Klashikari]

At this rate, I really think people should just accept the fact that Fate route isn't going to be adapted as what it is, and move on... as in, -right now-.

The thread serves as a place to discuss speculations and anything related to possible spoilers such as interviews and tidbits indicating what will be adapted and what won't. Since Fate route was confirmed as not being part of the TV series, discussing about it is moot, while discussing of few scenes that can make it to UBW is fine, to a certain degree.
I surely think this thread was not named "complaints that Fate route wasn't adapted by Ufotable", nor "Saber needs her route to give her justice in the anime!" either. Get on with it.

The thread will remain locked for several hours so I can clean up while all involved parties cool off their heads a bit, and give a little thought of what is asked here.
Anyone derailing the thread to that tangent again will be infracted on the spot and banned temporarily if needed. You have been warned.

[scyllus]

So, while still being on topic of Saber's role in UBW as per mod's notification.
The most mentioned method of expanding her character is inclusion of some elements of Fate scenario-like the dreams.
And i was actually thinking of another approach. Do not use fate- use zero.
IMO the most important difference between UBW and Fate Saber is her ability to cope with her dillema-on her own-through observation(ubw) and with shirou's help-through relationship (fate).
My point is to include fragments of her disscusions with Gil,Ixanander as recollections, as well as pointing out, through her impressions of Kiritsugu, the mistake Shirou holds about his father's way of life (pointed out in HF). My proposition would make a nice follow-through to the problems zero mentioned, without altering the flow of the plot, just a few scenes focusing on her internal turmoil and the procces in thanks to which she is able to leave this world with no regrets at the end. What do You guys think?

[Nayrael]

I agree, it would be a good way to achieve the same thing while at the same time achieving the Director's goal for this to feel like F/Z's sequel.

[GDB]

Main thing I want to see is Saber reminiscence about Irisviel in the shed at some point. Her healing circle is what caused her to be summoned, after all.

[Stanfoo]

I agree, it would be a good way to achieve the same thing while at the same time achieving the Director's goal for this to feel like F/Z's sequel.

Directors goal to be a sequel to F/Z? Pretty sure the interview with Nasu said the opposite, and that they want F/SN to be it's own thing.


Of course, we understand. This is not a sequel to Zero, but a new Stay Night.

[BloodyKitty]

So there are these lines from the official description of the Heaven's Feel PV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X7JEFF9mvs):

「Fate/stay night　Heaven’s Feel」
TYPE-MOON×ufotableによる劇場アニメ化決定！

『Fate/stay night』における「Fate」「Unlimited Blade Works」2つのシナリオを踏まえた上で語られる作品の最終形を成す物語。

I've been studying Japanese for 1 year, so from what I understand from these lines, "Fate/stay night　Heaven’s Feel" (the HF movie official name) has been decided to be a theatrical anime by TYPE-MOON & ufotable, while the final form of "Fate/stay night" (they might mean the 2014 F/SN anime) will be based on two scenarios "Fate" and "Unlimited Blade Works". That's what I can understand, I need someone who has better Japanese to translate more accurately though.

If someone ask me why I brought this up, then I'd say I've met some people who claimed that Heaven's Feel movie will be based on Fate & UBW just because they read the route names in the last line while not understanding the Japanese words.

[LoveYouSaber]

while the final form of "Fate/stay night" (they might mean the 2014 F/SN anime) will be based on two scenarios "Fate" and "Unlimited Blade Works". That's what I can understand, I need someone who has better Japanese to translate more accurately though.


...so the anime is going to a mix of two routes? That's really a game changer if true, and it almost makes the previous numerous route battles/discussions in this thread look silly...:D

[Stanfoo]

Oh how I wish this to be true. But even if your translations are correct, it could be an error on Aniplex's part for the video description.

[scyllus]

Directors goal to be a sequel to F/Z? Pretty sure the interview with Nasu said the opposite, and that they want F/SN to be it's own thing.

Stanfoo, no offense but ain't it just beating over a dead horse ? Making fs/n adaptation a "true" sequel to f/z requires a)an original route or b) mix up off all the routes and a)removing SoL scenes b)multi-protag approach again, focusing on kirei vs emiya again, making it a rehash.

We're talking about inclusion of some scenes from zero to acquire the same goal as the vn did, but without adding too much Fate into UBW, in case of Saber mainly, which fits like a glove.

And frankly how many viewers franticly go over every post and interview Nasu and Miura makes? This is going to be treated as a sequel to f/z no matter what. Using that to their advantage without making it a shitmess sounds resonable, at least to me.

...so the anime is going to a mix of two routes? That's really a game changer if true, and it almost makes the previous numerous route battles/discussions in this thread look silly...:D
From what i've heard "Fate" is usually used in Japan as a abbreviation to the Fate Stay/Night. They refer to the specific routes names as heroine routes (ex. saber route,sakura route,rin route) . So in this case, i would be careful not to overanalyze this. Also, a port of Fate route on IOS/Android was anounced at the same time as the pv so it might be reffering to that.

[GreyZone]

I am not sure, but this could also simply mean that Heaven's Feel is the "story that follows after Fate and UBW", which refers to the VN format and not to the anime adaptions. I could be wrong though.

[scyllus]

Okay this should clear up the confusion it's from the official site of the adaptation.
http://i.imgur.com/QlanDGi.jpg

[Tenchi Hou Take]

So Fate route is released the same day as UBW? That would explain it.

[BloodyKitty]

So what they referred as "Fate/Stay Night" in the last line is the game itself while the 2 routes are released in final form in different formats? Talk about confusion. Not as bad as the people I've encountered who had misunderstanding about HF based on those lines though.

[Klashikari]

No, it is simply referring to the game. By no means they advertised the movie towards the anime. You completely mixed up the intent of the original japanese line.

[GreyZone]

No, it is simply referring to the game. By no means they advertised the movie towards the anime. You completely mixed up the intent of the original japanese line.

Well that's what I thought too, but I wasn't sure since I don't understand Japanese. Thanks for clering it up.

[Klashikari]

It basically means: This is the story that shapes the last form of the work based on what's been told after the two scenario [Fate] and [Unlimited Blade Works] from Fate Stay Night.

They pretty shoehorned the "ultimate / very last" aspect of the work intended to be adapted, which makes sense for HF, although it is just a mess to read.

[Death Usagi]

So how is that Andorid/iOS Fate going to work out anyway?

[Klashikari]

They will simply adapt the original VN to IOS, what else is there to understand?

[Nayrael]

Directors goal to be a sequel to F/Z? Pretty sure the interview with Nasu said the opposite, and that they want F/SN to be it's own thing.

One does not contradict the other. While FSN won't force itself to be like FZ, it will likely still take into consideration that a lot of people have watched FZ only and relate some things to FZ, like flashbacks and such.
Nasu himself was most likely worried that UBW Anime would have the style and feel of FZ rather than FSN and may make more radical changes (a legit fear as UBW has a radically different feel than FZ). The staff in return assured him that they understand the difference between FSN and FZ and thus won't take it too far.
It does NOT mean that it will be copy-paste of the VN's story nor does it mean that some original content, relating to FZ, would not be added. IIRC, even Nasu added into later versions of Realta Nua some new staff to correlate it with FZ.

...so the anime is going to a mix of two routes? That's really a game changer if true, and it almost makes the previous numerous route battles/discussions in this thread look silly...:D

Misunderstanding or not, the elements of Fate route will definitely be added in, it is naive to even think otherwise. Saber at least will get more screentime (which was not necessary in the VN due to everyone having read Fate beforehand).
How Kirei kept Gilgamesh from disappearing will no doubt also be mentioned in the Anime.
And Illya too. The scenes from Fate, where Shirou meets her while shopping for groceries, may also be included if only to make her get to appear in a few more episodes.
In general, there are many things from Fate that can easily be added into UBW storyline without any serious consequences or changing the plot.

So how is that Andorid/iOS Fate going to work out anyway?

You buy the game, it gets downloaded onto your Smartphone/iPhone and you play it in a smaller resolution ;)

[Cherry_Lover]

So how is that Andorid/iOS Fate going to work out anyway?

The Realta Nua versions of FSN were released as three separate routes, so I would assume they're just porting the Fate route to iOS. I'd expect the other two routes to be ported reasonably quickly, though, since the underlying engine is (presumably) the same, and the data files shouldn't depend on the OS.

Misunderstanding or not, the elements of Fate route will definitely be added in, it is naive to even think otherwise. Saber at least will get more screentime (which was not necessary in the VN due to everyone having read Fate beforehand).
How Kirei kept Gilgamesh from disappearing will no doubt also be mentioned in the Anime.
And Illya too. The scenes from Fate, where Shirou meets her while shopping for groceries, may also be included if only to make her get to appear in a few more episodes.
In general, there are many things from Fate that can easily be added into UBW storyline without any serious consequences or changing the plot.

Yeah, this. Saber will almost certainly get some of her scenes from Fate pulled over, particularly the stuff about her past. That stuff isn't shown in the VN because it would just be repeating the same scenes again, but there's no reason it couldn't have happened.

Kotomine is probably the same. Whilst he can't play a massive role in the story itself, he can certainly be given more explanatory scenes which are not shown in the original VN because, again, they're shown in Fate.

Ilya is a more difficult case, though, because any interaction between her and Shirou affects the plot development. So, she might have to wait for HF to get proper involvement.

Also, Sakura is an interesting case. Obviously, HF focusses on her, so she's not going to be given a massive role in UBW but, at the same time, she is Rin's little sister, and UBW is meant to be Rin's route, so I'm not so sure that they'll ignore her entirely. Particularly given that the UBW ending comes across as rather unsatisfactory and incomplete once you are aware of Sakura's situation and relationship to Rin, which people who come into the story from Zero will be.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

One does not contradict the other. While FSN won't force itself to be like FZ, it will likely still take into consideration that a lot of people have watched FZ only and relate some things to FZ, like flashbacks and such.
Nasu himself was most likely worried that UBW Anime would have the style and feel of FZ rather than FSN and may make more radical changes (a legit fear as UBW has a radically different feel than FZ). The staff in return assured him that they understand the difference between FSN and FZ and thus won't take it too far.
It does NOT mean that it will be copy-paste of the VN's story nor does it mean that some original content, relating to FZ, would not be added. IIRC, even Nasu added into later versions of Realta Nua some new staff to correlate it with FZ.



Misunderstanding or not, the elements of Fate route will definitely be added in, it is naive to even think otherwise. Saber at least will get more screentime (which was not necessary in the VN due to everyone having read Fate beforehand).
How Kirei kept Gilgamesh from disappearing will no doubt also be mentioned in the Anime.
And Illya too. The scenes from Fate, where Shirou meets her while shopping for groceries, may also be included if only to make her get to appear in a few more episodes.
In general, there are many things from Fate that can easily be added into UBW storyline without any serious consequences or changing the plot.



You buy the game, it gets downloaded onto your Smartphone/iPhone and you play it in a smaller resolution ;)

Gilgamesh explains how he remained after F/Z in UBW, he in fact explains it far better than what was said in Fate.

Honestly if their going to shoe in Fate stuff their going to have to do it at the beginning of the story or very near it, because Shirou actually loses his contract with Saber fairly early on (not HF early but still quite) and then she makes a contract with Rin so you can't really directly shoe in Fate development like some people here are expecting. At most I expect some flashbacks.

[sona-nyl]

You buy the game, it gets downloaded onto your Smartphone/iPhone and you play it in a smaller resolution ;)

From what I have heard it's going to be completely free actually. The latter routes will probably end up costing money if they ever get ported though.

[Cherry_Lover]

Honestly if their going to shoe in Fate stuff their going to have to do it at the beginning of the story or very near it, because Shirou actually loses his contract with Saber fairly early on (not HF early but still quite) and then she makes a contract with Rin so you can't really directly shoe in Fate development like some people here are expecting. At most I expect some flashbacks.

Shirou loses his contract with Saber somewhere in the later half of the middle of the story, IIRC. And, even then, Saber is still around, and still cares about Shirou. I think they could fit the majority of her development from Fate in just fine, and I'd be very surprised if they don't attempt to do so.

[Nayrael]

Gilgamesh explains how he remained after F/Z in UBW, he in fact explains it far better than what was said in Fate.

Honestly if their going to shoe in Fate stuff their going to have to do it at the beginning of the story or very near it, because Shirou actually loses his contract with Saber fairly early on (not HF early but still quite) and then she makes a contract with Rin so you can't really directly shoe in Fate development like some people here are expecting. At most I expect some flashbacks.

It just means that Saber would not be telling about her past to Shirou. For example, while she is being "tamed" by Caster, we can get her to remember about some things from her past... and while she looks at Shioru fighting Archer, she can get some char. development. For UBW, Shirou and Saber building a bond ain't that necessary.
Yeah, this would make it original scenes inspired by Fate ones, but still.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Shirou loses his contract with Saber somewhere in the later half of the middle of the story, IIRC. And, even then, Saber is still around, and still cares about Shirou. I think they could fit the majority of her development from Fate in just fine, and I'd be very surprised if they don't attempt to do so.

As in he doesn't actually learn much about her history at all, he doesn't have the time to. He only even finds out about Avalon from Archer. The major point of fate development is Saber moving on from her past with Shirou's help, that past Shirou barely even knows.

Basically your going to have to tell this from Saber's point of view and she develops largely on her own.

Basically it would be nothing like Fate at best.

I mean shit even in the VN getting too close to Saber either means good end or Rin get's captured because your neglecting her and so you get a bad end. There's no point in reproducing fate.

[Cherry_Lover]

He doesn't learn much about Saber's history in the VN because it's already covered in Fate. I don't think it would be difficult to alter that and still stick to the UBW story.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

He doesn't learn much about Saber's history in the VN because it's already covered in Fate. I don't think it would be difficult to alter that and still stick to the UBW story.

And that would be largely pointless. Saber could develop but you would have to do that in the beginning of the story. This story is not about Saber it makes no logical sense why he would be continuing to worry about Saber when his future self is attempting to kill him and he's questioning every single aspect of himself (she's not even his servant anymore), trying to turn this story in Fate dilutes it and serves no real purpose (Saber has her own route and her own route that's been developed into an anime).

Besides all that time you would be spending trying to turn UBW into Fate you could have spent you know focusing on the routes own heroine who herself didn't get have that much time spent on her because the main point of the story about Shirou and Archer.

There is no need to shoe in Fate stuff like that, it's not the point of this story (which is far more close knit than the other two routes) and it's needless pandering. Have Saber develop on her own by watching shirou's battle with himself expound with some flashbacks you know like how she actually develops in the VN.

[Raziel1991]

The Realta Nua versions of FSN were released as three separate routes, so I would assume they're just porting the Fate route to iOS. I'd expect the other two routes to be ported reasonably quickly, though, since the underlying engine is (presumably) the same, and the data files shouldn't depend on the OS.



Yeah, this. Saber will almost certainly get some of her scenes from Fate pulled over, particularly the stuff about her past. That stuff isn't shown in the VN because it would just be repeating the same scenes again, but there's no reason it couldn't have happened.

Kotomine is probably the same. Whilst he can't play a massive role in the story itself, he can certainly be given more explanatory scenes which are not shown in the original VN because, again, they're shown in Fate.

Ilya is a more difficult case, though, because any interaction between her and Shirou affects the plot development. So, she might have to wait for HF to get proper involvement.

Also, Sakura is an interesting case. Obviously, HF focusses on her, so she's not going to be given a massive role in UBW but, at the same time, she is Rin's little sister, and UBW is meant to be Rin's route, so I'm not so sure that they'll ignore her entirely. Particularly given that the UBW ending comes across as rather unsatisfactory and incomplete once you are aware of Sakura's situation and relationship to Rin, which people who come into the story from Zero will be.

You can add Saber´s backstory and her problems in this UBW adaption and if done correctly it would actually fit with the themes of the Unlimited Blade Works route. However if Ufotable does this they have to be careful for Saber´s story to not intrude in the main core of the story, in other words the conflict between Archer and Shirou. Adding stuff about Sakura however makes no sense, mainly because it does not fit with the themes of the Unlimited Blade Works route no matter how you spin it. And the fact she is Rins little sister or their relationship does not really matter since those who have read the UBW route should know that its Archers story, its certainly not Rins story despite her being the heroine of the route. In my opinion adding Sakura stuff here would just feel like putting an out of place filler.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

You can add Saber´s backstory and problems in this UBW adaption and if done correctly it would actually make fit with the themes of the Unlimited Blade Works route. However if Ufotable does this they have to be careful for Saber´s story to not intrude in the main core of the story, in other words the conflict between Archer and Shirou. Adding stuff about Sakura however makes no sense, mainly because it does not fit with the themes of the Unlimited Blade Works route no matter how you spin it. And the fact she is Rins little sister or their relationship does not really matter since those who have read the UBW route should know that its Archers story, its certainly not Rins story despite her being the heroine of the route.

You can add it and that's what I'm saying have her develop largely on her own, which is what happens in the VN and doesn't intrude on the core story they can expound on that as much as they want, but Shirou doesn't have to develop with Saber for that. The route goes out of it's way so that Shirou doesn't develop with Saber that way because A she's not the main heroine and B he loses his contract with her half way through the story.

This is not Fate I don't understand why people want it to suddenly become Fate. In terms of priorities Rin should be the one the they spend more time on, then Saber then offpanel fights.

[Raziel1991]

You can add it and that's what I'm saying have her develop largely on her own, which is what happens in the VN and doesn't intrude on the core story they can expound on that as much as they want, but Shirou doesn't have to develop with Saber for that. The route goes out of it's way so that Shirou doesn't develop with Saber that way because A she's not the main heroine and B he loses his contract with her half way through the story.

This is not Fate I don't understand why people want it to suddenly become Fate. In terms of priorities Rin should be the one the they spend more time on, then Saber then offpanel fights.

I agree if they decide to develop Saber she should do it on her own like in the Visual Novel, otherwise her development would almost certainly intrude the main story. They should spend most of the screen time to develop Archer, because after all UBW is his story and Shirous inner struggle to keep his ideal. And of course they should also spend a good amount of screentime with Rin not only because she is the heroine of the route but she is also very important for Shirous character development.

[Nayrael]

I have no doubts that they will expand on Rin a bit. We are talking about the same people who make an entire filler episode about Chibi Rin in FZ ;)

[Raziel1991]

I have no doubts that they will expand on Rin a bit. We are talking about the same people who make an entire filler episode about Chibi Rin in FZ ;)

Yeah it is highly possible they do that if we take into account ufotables Rin fetish. In my opinion if they want to expand something, it should be Archers backstory, because after all, all key events of the route are defined by Archer so its important to understand his character and past. I do think the VN did a good job with explaining Archers situation but still if they add original content I personally think it should be to expand on Archer.

[chaos_alfa]

I have no doubts that they will expand on Rin a bit. We are talking about the same people who make an entire filler episode about Chibi Rin in FZ ;)

Yeah it is highly possible they do that if we take into account ufotables Rin fetish. In my opinion if they want to expand something, it should be Archers backstory, because after all key events of the route are defined by Archer so its important to understand his character and past. I do think the VN did a good job with explaining Archers situation but still if they add original content I personally think it should be to expand on Archer.

I wouldn't call that episode filler. It was also in the light novel, they did change the fate of her kidnapped friend.

[Raziel1991]

I wouldn't call that episode filler. It was also in the light novel, they did change the fate of her kidnapped friend.

The fact it was in the light novel doesnt mean it was actually relevant for the main plot.

[LoveYouSaber]

Hindsight is 20/20, but thinking back now, there were two hints that they would be going for UBW for the upcoming anime.

1. They said they wanted to develop Shirou properly as a main character (He gets massive development in UBW)

2. Ufotable had Rin fetish as seen in FZ...

[Lorhand]

3. Urobuchi said they would adapt UBW.

[Raziel1991]

Im glad they did decide to adapt UBW. UBW!Shirou is my favourite version of Shirou and Archer is my favourite character in the visual novel. I always thought UBW was the route that was the least likely to be adapted by ufotable, Im glad I was wrong.

[Akogareru]

I would think it's obvious why they chose not to adapt the Fate route and why it wouldn't work well. F/Z Saber and Fate Saber is a complete 180. They want to keep Saber's badass warrior persona, and that isn't happening with Fate Shirou around (though I do prefer Saber's gentler side).

[kenshinstyle]

Actually, the japanese cares more about Fate Saber rather than zero with her "badass warrior" persona. It's only the fate/0 only watchers from the west that didn't play the VN that obviously prefer zero saber. So I don't think that's the reason they chose not to adapt Fate.

As said before, it's most probably they want to portray shirou properly that they chose UBW since it is his and archer route, rather than Fate which is more or less Saber-only route.

[Cherry_Lover]

Adding stuff about Sakura however makes no sense, mainly because it does not fit with the themes of the Unlimited Blade Works route no matter how you spin it. And the fact she is Rins little sister or their relationship does not really matter since those who have read the UBW route should know that its Archers story, its certainly not Rins story despite her being the heroine of the route. In my opinion adding Sakura stuff here would just feel like putting an out of place filler.

How does Sakura being Rin's sister not "fit with the themes of the route"? Further, people coming into it from Zero will know about Sakura's situation, and will feel unsatisfied if it is just ignored entirely.

I have no doubts that they will expand on Rin a bit. We are talking about the same people who make an entire filler episode about Chibi Rin in FZ ;)

It's kind-of hard for them to expand on Rin more than UBW already does, though, aside from by adding stuff about Sakura. UBW is still Rin's route, and most of the development that is left out of it is left out because it would be a HF spoiler.

In my opinion if they want to expand something, it should be Archers backstory, because after all, all key events of the route are defined by Archer so its important to understand his character and past. I do think the VN did a good job with explaining Archers situation but still if they add original content I personally think it should be to expand on Archer.

Honestly, I think that adding a significant portion on Archer's backstory is unlikely. Nasu seems to prefer keeping it somewhat unclear in detail, and covering what really happened in his timeline properly would involve almost an entire separate series.

I wouldn't call that episode filler. It was also in the light novel, they did change the fate of her kidnapped friend.

It was in the LN, yes, but they expanded it significantly. I think that that was at least partially out of necessity, though, because they couldn't cut it out (it's required to allow Kariya to meet with Aoi) and they couldn't fit it in as part of an episode between two other events.

[Raziel1991]

How does Sakura being Rin's sister not "fit with the themes of the route"? Further, people coming into it from Zero will know about Sakura's situation, and will feel unsatisfied if it is just ignored entirely.



Honestly, I think that adding a significant portion on Archer's backstory is unlikely. Nasu seems to prefer keeping it somewhat unclear in detail, and covering what really happened in his timeline properly would involve almost an entire separate series.




1. I think I already explained that the UBW route is Archer´s and Shirou´s story, not Rin´s. She is obviously the heroine of the route but that does not mean UBW is her story. You see, as we all know the main core of UBW´s story is the conflict between Archer´s way of thinking and Shirou´s way thinking. Adding Saber´s backstory in an UBW adaption would make sense as long as they are careful it doesnt intrude the main part of the story. Why? Because the problems of Archer and Saber are similar in nature, in fact, the VN itself stated that Saber saw in the UBW route Archer as her very own mirror image which is why it would add something meaningful to the main story. But adding the problems of Sakura in the Matou family does not really add anything to the conflict between Archer and Shirou in any way which is why I said it would feel like an out of place filler. As for the Fate/Zero thing, I dont see what´s the problem. Fate/Zero only viewers can get the resolution of Sakura´s story in ufotable´s Heavens Feel movie(s) adaption later on.

2. You are correct about this, Nasu does want to keep Archer´s past vague and it´s highly unlikely they add original content in the anime to expand his story, however my point was that it would actually be an addition that adds something meaningful to the story since after all, this is an UBW adaption. He and Shirou are the center of UBW´s story.

[GreyZone]

The only ways I can think of right now to include Sakura in UBW are the following:

1. Sakura's story gets "resolved" by her death and by extension Zouken could also be killed off
2. Shinji (who felt like nothing more than a personified plot device in this route) is somehow replaced by Sakura in the end (i.e. Rin saves Sakura instead of Shinji). Because of the grail growing out of her, Zouken worms are somehow eliminated as well

[scyllus]

The only ways I can think of right now to include Sakura in UBW are the following:

1. Sakura's story gets "resolved" by her death and by extension Zouken could also be killed off
2. Shinji (who felt like nothing more than a personified plot device in this route) is somehow replaced by Sakura in the end (i.e. Rin saves Sakura instead of Shinji). Because of the grail growing out of her, Zouken worms are somehow eliminated as well

These are not bad propositions at all.
On 1. You could move Rin's investigation of Matou household into UBW. Why isn't it ever questioned how could Shinji summon Rider in the first place? You could include her contacting Kotomine to help her get rid of Zouken, or just let Archer or Rin rip him to shreds, while giving Sakura a "false" saving, making UBW true a little easier to swallow(because rin had no way of knowing the heart worm secret).Having Sakura die just to make sure Zouken is really dead requires the knowledge of the entire HF route, and on it's own it just...well for me sadism:P
2. The second could work, but Sakura is the same as Illya.She arleady has a part of grail inside her, so forcing Illya's heart into her won't result into a cute shinji grail-kun.You would have to ommit the whole incomplete grail bussines, making ubw climax more like Fate one. I am not against it, but it would require major rework, and really alters the plot (Kotomine has no reason to appear in Einsbern mansion, killing Illya is stupid etc)

[mirakura]

How does Sakura being Rin's sister not "fit with the themes of the route"? Further, people coming into it from Zero will know about Sakura's situation, and will feel unsatisfied if it is just ignored entirely.





So how exactly do you think Sakura will fit into UBW, example, what scenes? You can't say they have to fit her in with out saying how:D

[GreyZone]

So how exactly do you think Sakura will fit into UBW, example, what scenes? You can't say they have to fit her in with out saying how:D

Read my post above:

The only ways I can think of right now to include Sakura in UBW are the following:

1. Sakura's story gets "resolved" by her death and by extension Zouken could also be killed off
2. Shinji (who felt like nothing more than a personified plot device in this route) is somehow replaced by Sakura in the end (i.e. Rin saves Sakura instead of Shinji). Because of the grail growing out of her, Zouken worms are somehow eliminated as well

As scyllus pointed out, those ways have their weaknesses, but still, you got your examples.

[mirakura]

Read my post above:



As scyllus pointed out, those ways have their weaknesses, but still, you got your examples.

Yeah, good ideas, but they change the plot to a degree. Also, it was at Cherry Lover, don't think I missed out what you said, but scyllus already dealt with them.;)

[GreyZone]

I doubt Cherry_Lover would like Method 1, but it would still be a way, to ADD it to the story (i.e. "original scenes by Nasu"), without CHANGING the existing one.

Method 2 would change the story though, that is true, but considering how Shinji felt almost non-existent here and Rin saving him somehow felt.... underwhelming? It could maybe work somehow, but maybe not... urgh my head.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

I doubt Cherry_Lover would like Method 1, but it would still be a way, to ADD it to the story (i.e. "original scenes by Nasu"), without CHANGING the existing one.

Method 2 would change the story though, that is true, but considering how Shinji felt almost non-existent here and Rin saving him somehow felt.... underwhelming? It could maybe work somehow, but maybe not... urgh my head.

Non existent... the dude tried to rape her, it was pretty much a better person moment more than anything to do with Shinji's character.

[mirakura]

Method 2 would change the story though, that is true, but considering how Shinji felt almost non-existent here and Rin saving him somehow felt.... underwhelming? It could maybe work somehow, but maybe not... urgh my head.

Yeah, I was screaming at the screen when she decided to save him...she almost risked her life, so much for a genius(jokes):D

[GreyZone]

Non existent... the dude tried to rape her, it was pretty much a better person moment more than anything to do with Shinji's character.

When I read that scene in the VN, not even for one second did I think that Shinji was a "threat". In my mind he was the buttmonkey of the series already... I mean on first glance everyone saw Shirou as an incompetent Magican noob. However Shinji was even worse. He was not even a magican at all, got stomped by Shirou and would probably easily lose against every other master as well. Not to mention that Shirou, aside from at least being a magus at all, was also physically stronger than him. It burned the impression into my head that "no matter what Shinji tries, he will, in 100% of all cases, always fail".

And that was even BEFORE I read HF, which was the "finishing move" for him (in my mind).

[mirakura]

When I read that scene in the VN, not even for one second did I think that Shinji was a "threat". In my mind he was the buttmonkey of the series already... I mean on first glance everyone saw Shirou as an incompetent Magican noob. However Shinji was even worse. He was not even a magican at all, got stomped by Shirou and would probably easily lose against every other master as well. Not to mention that Shirou, aside from at least being a magus at all, was also physically stronger than him. It burned the impression into my head that "no matter what Shinji tries, he will, in 100% of all cases, always fail".

And that was even BEFORE I read HF, which was the "finishing move" for him (in my mind).

Ahh, harsh - back to topic

[GreyZone]

Ahh, harsh - back to topic

OK. If not replaced, then I hope ufotable/Nasu at least turn Shinji into a less boring character. First he was the abusing big brother (which was appearantly completely forgotten by some point), then he was a support character for a mid-boss (Rider), then he was "the master" (in name) of Gilgamesh for a few minutes, he got a short rape attempt scene, then he runs away, gets captured and is then used for experiments by a mad scientist the grail, only to be saved by that one girl that he just tried to attempt to rape. I just summarized the complete involvment of Shinji in Unlimited Blade Works. He really is in need of some improvement. Considering that he is a throw-away character in the HF movie, his only chance to be involved is in UBW.

I also think that Taiga needs a bit screentime. I hope they use the same "special" format they did for Fate/Zero for the Irisviel classes. They were designed after the Tiger Dojo after all, so they could easily use the same format for a Tiger Dojo adaption as well (and add the bad endings!)

[Cherry_Lover]

1. Sakura's story gets "resolved" by her death and by extension Zouken could also be killed off

Killing her off is not a damn "resolution" to her situation, it's just a way of trying to avoid it. And, I somehow doubt it will satisfy people coming from Zero or Sakura fans.

These are not bad propositions at all.
On 1. You could move Rin's investigation of Matou household into UBW. Why isn't it ever questioned how could Shinji summon Rider in the first place? You could include her contacting Kotomine to help her get rid of Zouken, or just let Archer or Rin rip him to shreds, while giving Sakura a "false" saving, making UBW true a little easier to swallow(because rin had no way of knowing the heart worm secret).Having Sakura die just to make sure Zouken is really dead requires the knowledge of the entire HF route, and on it's own it just...well for me sadism:P

I'm not sure how a "false saving" makes UBW True any better, really. It just comes across to me as a way of absolving Rin of as much blame as possible so she can enjoy her happy ending without worry whilst Sakura is still left to suffer.

So how exactly do you think Sakura will fit into UBW, example, what scenes? You can't say they have to fit her in with out saying how:D

I honestly don't know. But, just because I don't know how they will do it, that doesn't mean I can't speculate that they will do it. I'm not a mind-reader.

Non existent... the dude tried to rape her, it was pretty much a better person moment more than anything to do with Shinji's character.

Well, that is a possible issue with the idea. With Shinji, it is unquestionably just Rin being a really kind person. With Sakura, that isn't really the case, because Rin genuinely cares for her.

[GreyZone]

Killing her off is not a damn "resolution" to her situation, it's just a way of trying to avoid it. And, I somehow doubt it will satisfy people coming from Zero or Sakura fans.

Even though it would be quite easy to implement, it would come off as a cheap solution (character is hard to implement? meh kill him/her off!). I put "resolved" into quotation marks for a reason.




In the VN Sakura just seems to stop existing altogether after the first few days.

They can only either:
1. Leave her the same way as in the VN
2. Give her pointless camoes, or
3. DO involve her in the story somehow.

There are no other solutions.

2 would just be pandering which would most likely just backfire both for Sakura fans, as well as Fate/Zero-first-watchers, which leaves us with either 1 or 3. If it is 1, then it doesn't matter, if it is 3, then my solution of her replacing Shinji could become plausible (though it would need a bit of work to do that).

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Killing her off is not a damn "resolution" to her situation, it's just a way of trying to avoid it. And, I somehow doubt it will satisfy people coming from Zero or Sakura fans.



I'm not sure how a "false saving" makes UBW True any better, really. It just comes across to me as a way of absolving Rin of as much blame as possible so she can enjoy her happy ending without worry whilst Sakura is still left to suffer.



I honestly don't know. But, just because I don't know how they will do it, that doesn't mean I can't speculate that they will do it. I'm not a mind-reader.



Well, that is a possible issue with the idea. With Shinji, it is unquestionably just Rin being a really kind person. With Sakura, that isn't really the case, because Rin genuinely cares for her.

Rin can't really save Sakura so any saving here would be temporary stuff here would be generally meaningless, real development would involve her actually developing a relationship with Sakura as a sister, but ultimately only Sakura can kill Zouken (well amped dark Sakura anyway).

[Cherry_Lover]

Even though it would be quite easy to implement, it would come off as a cheap solution (character is hard to implement? meh kill him/her off!). I put "resolved" into quotation marks for a reason.

It's extremely cheap. It's basically just an attempt to get her out of the way without compromising Rin's happy ending, and I really despise that.


In the VN Sakura just seems to stop existing altogether after the first few days.

They can only either:
1. Leave her the same way as in the VN
2. Give her pointless camoes, or
3. DO involve her in the story somehow.

There are no other solutions.

2 would just be pandering which would most likely just backfire both for Sakura fans, as well as Fate/Zero-first-watchers, which leaves us with either 1 or 3. If it is 1, then it doesn't matter, if it is 3, then my solution of her replacing Shinji could become plausible (though it would need a bit of work to do that).

Yeah, given that they're making HF, 2 seems pointless, unless those cameos involve actually developing her relationship with Rin more and giving her at least some route to salvation.

What you're saying about 3 is possible, but rescuing Shinji does say something about Rin as a character that rescuing Sakura would not (because Rin has attachment to Sakura, whereas she hates Shinji with good reason).

Rin can't really save Sakura so any saving here would be temporary stuff here would be generally meaningless, real development would involve her actually developing a relationship with Sakura as a sister, but ultimately only Sakura can kill Zouken (well amped dark Sakura anyway).

I don't think that's actually true. The only method we see in canon for killing Zouken is Dark Sakura, but I doubt it's the only possible way it can be done. I don't think Rin can rescue her during the Grail War, but someone else (notably Gil, who does canonically go down to the Matou basement and squish some worms during UBW) could free her, and then other development could happen from there.

But, even if she's not freed, getting Rin to acknowledge her and interact with her more and hinting at some method for helping her in the future would be better than what happens in canon. I just don't like the idea of them basically writing it to get rid of Sakura in a way that is solely designed to make Rin feel less guilty or upset rather than to actually help her.

[GreyZone]

What you're saying about 3 is possible, but rescuing Shinji does say something about Rin as a character that rescuing Sakura would not (because Rin has attachment to Sakura, whereas she hates Shinji with good reason).
I don't think Rin hates Shinji... She actually always looked down on him and probably still did even then. She most likely just got a bit influenced by Shirou's ideals, but it was so subtle, that I only noticed it while we were having this discussion right now. So her finally warming up to Sakura would not really affect the story that much. However then it would also weaken the resolution in the HF movie(s).


I don't think that's actually true. The only method we see in canon for killing Zouken is Dark Sakura, but I doubt it's the only possible way it can be done. I don't think Rin can rescue her during the Grail War, but someone else (notably Gil, who does canonically go down to the Matou basement and squish some worms during UBW) could free her, and then other development could happen from there.

But, even if she's not freed, getting Rin to acknowledge her and interact with her more and hinting at some method for helping her in the future would be better than what happens in canon. I just don't like the idea of them basically writing it to get rid of Sakura in a way that is solely designed to make Rin feel less guilty or upset rather than to actually help her.

I think the only ones who can kill Zouken without Sakura dying are:

1. Zouken himself (suicide, for whatever reason)
2. Dark Sakura
3. Gilgamesh with some concept severing noble phatasm.
4. Caster with some kind of spell
5. Illya controlled by first generation Einzbern

Maybe also Archer...

Also they have to get to know about the worm in her heart first.

Aside from that, maybe Zouken's worms can be sealed or something... it would leave Sakura's future vague, as it is unknown wether he will be unsealed again or not. It would therefore not make HF obsolete.

[GDB]

While Archer would be just as capable as Gilgamesh, merely in terms of "ability", I'd agree with not putting him on the list (along with removing Caster and Illya) due to not knowing about the worm. Even if Caster knew, I don't see why she'd remove it anyway.

At least Gilgamesh, being a great King (even if I, and many others, think he's a total dick), could see one of her "training" sessions and bestow some benevolence upon her by freeing her. He wouldn't care if she were crying or begging for help, but the mere fact that she just accepts it might stir something in him.

[Amarantine]

I just don't like the idea of them basically writing it to get rid of Sakura in a way that is solely designed to make Rin feel less guilty or upset rather than to actually help her.

If I remember correctly, Rin only becomes aware of Sakura's "situation" in HF, so I don't see how she might be considered guilty in UBW. Sure, she obviously still cares for her in some way and laments the fact that they were separated as children, but is it really fair to expect her to just waltz in the Matou household and somehow force them to undo an agreement from a decade ago between two magus clans and force them to hand over the child the Matou lineage is counting upon to survive? Not only that, the time Rin and Sakura have spent apart has clearly estranged them and made things rather awkward between them, so that's all the more reason why it might be a little unreasonable to expect her to act in UBW, where she never learns what's really going on with Sakura in the Matou household.

1. Zouken himself (suicide, for whatever reason)

Extremely unlikely, considering his entire character motivation was that he was afraid of dying.

At least Gilgamesh, being a great King (even if I, and many others, think he's a total dick), could see one of her "training" sessions and bestow some benevolence upon her by freeing her. He wouldn't care if she were crying or begging for help, but the mere fact that she just accepts it might stir something in him.

I could also see ufotable go for something like that in order to make Gil a little more like his Zero self, where he still showed some benevolence here and there (whereas in UBW he's easily at his most douchiest).

[cyberdemon]

While Archer would be just as capable as Gilgamesh, merely in terms of "ability", I'd agree with not putting him on the list (along with removing Caster and Illya) due to not knowing about the worm. Even if Caster knew, I don't see why she'd remove it anyway.

At least Gilgamesh, being a great King (even if I, and many others, think he's a total dick), could see one of her "training" sessions and bestow some benevolence upon her by freeing her. He wouldn't care if she were crying or begging for help, but the mere fact that she just accepts it might stir something in him.

Gil would be far more likely to kill her out of disgust.

I think the only ones who can kill Zouken without Sakura dying are:

1. Zouken himself (suicide, for whatever reason)
2. Dark Sakura
3. Gilgamesh with some concept severing noble phatasm.
4. Caster with some kind of spell
5. Illya controlled by first generation Einzbern

1. not possible. Even in HF it took Ilya in the dress to get him to finally give up and considering her fate in UBW before she could do anything...
2. There's no real was to bring her out in UBW or Fate.
3. Do you REALLY think he would care about someone like Sakura to use anything like that? He'll more likely kill her instead.
4. Why would she?
5. Her fate in UBW doesn't leave this as an option.

[GreyZone]

Gil would be far more likely to kill her out of disgust.

He could possibly do it, to annoy Zouken though. He, along with Kirei, knows of his existence (if I remember correctly).

[cyberdemon]

He could possibly do it, to annoy Zouken though. He, along with Kirei, knows of his existence (if I remember correctly).

why go to all the trouble when he could just kill Sakura to have the same effect on Zouken? either way it trashes Zouken's plans for her but for someone like Gil, killing is a lot either than saving. He also doesn't care about anyone enough to be willing to save her.

[GDB]

Why would he kill her? Why would she disgust him? He isn't a prude, and the fact that she retains herself through 10 years of this would probably impress him. He does like strong-willed people, after all.

[GreyZone]

why go to all the trouble when he could just kill Sakura to have the same effect on Zouken? either way it trashes Zouken's plans for her but for someone like Gil, killing is a lot either than saving. He also doesn't care about anyone enough to be willing to save her.

I don't know how much Kirei knows and how much influence he has on Gil, but he wants to witness Angra Mayuu's awakening, if possible, so maybe he would ask Gil not to kill her if possible. Outside HF the shadow would appear later on anyway, according to Archer, it would just take significantly more time for it to happen.

Also there was that "meeting" between Gil and Sakura in the prologue, which was just there and never really led to anywhere. In Fate and UBW, Sakura just stopped being involved in the story altogether, while in HF they just meet again, Gil dies and that's it. Maybe it is a leftover from the Illya route that got scrapped, or something, but I don't understand, why they would include such a pointless scene into the 2nd PV... it COULD be hinting at something... or maybe they just included it "because it also happened in the VN".

[Amarantine]

I don't know how much Kirei knows and how much influence he has on Gil, but he wants to witness Angra Mayuu's awakening, if possible, so maybe he would ask Gil not to kill her if possible.

Also there was that "meeting" between Gil and Sakura in the prologue, which was just there and never really led to anywhere. In Fate and UBW, Sakura just stopped being involved in the story altogether, while in HF they just meet again, Gil dies and that's it. Maybe it is a leftover from the Illya route that got scrapped, or something, but I don't understand, why they would include such a pointless scene into the 2nd PV... it COULD be hinting at something... or maybe they just included it "because it also happened in the VN".

I think those first PVs may have included footage from both the UBW and HF adaptations just to keep people speculating about which route they'd be following. So maybe that scene won't be featured at all in the UBW anime and we'll only see it in the HF movie(s).

[GreyZone]

I think those first PVs may have included footage from both the UBW and HF adaptations just to keep people speculating about which route they'd be following. So maybe that scene won't be featured at all in the UBW anime and we'll only see it in the HF movie(s).

Even in the context of HF it seemed kind of pointless... a staring contest, wow... and then a few days later one of them dies... what a great "PLOTTWIST"!

[Lorhand]

Even in the context of HF it seemed kind of pointless... a staring contest, wow... and then a few days later one of them dies... what a great "PLOTTWIST"!

Gil told Sakura to "go die right now" in that scene. He was checking on the other Holy Grail.

[cyberdemon]

don't forget that in the beginning he walked right up to her and said "Go Die now". He doesn't care enough about her to save her.

[LoveYouSaber]

Why would he kill her? Why would she disgust him? He isn't a prude, and the fact that she retains herself through 10 years of this would probably impress him. He does like strong-willed people, after all.

At the same time, I was under the impression that in F/Z he was eagerly looking forward to Saber breaking down under the strain of trying to be an ideal king and then going to taste her tears... so while I understand he appreciates certain strong-willed people like Alexander and Waver, it's not a consistent trait...

[GreyZone]

Well, Gil certainly did not like Shirou and Archer... but that was more due to their "imitation nature" and probably the fact that Gil was aware of the danger they posed to him, which he didn't want to admit, thus leading to him hating them.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

It's extremely cheap. It's basically just an attempt to get her out of the way without compromising Rin's happy ending, and I really despise that.



Yeah, given that they're making HF, 2 seems pointless, unless those cameos involve actually developing her relationship with Rin more and giving her at least some route to salvation.

What you're saying about 3 is possible, but rescuing Shinji does say something about Rin as a character that rescuing Sakura would not (because Rin has attachment to Sakura, whereas she hates Shinji with good reason).



I don't think that's actually true. The only method we see in canon for killing Zouken is Dark Sakura, but I doubt it's the only possible way it can be done. I don't think Rin can rescue her during the Grail War, but someone else (notably Gil, who does canonically go down to the Matou basement and squish some worms during UBW) could free her, and then other development could happen from there.

But, even if she's not freed, getting Rin to acknowledge her and interact with her more and hinting at some method for helping her in the future would be better than what happens in canon. I just don't like the idea of them basically writing it to get rid of Sakura in a way that is solely designed to make Rin feel less guilty or upset rather than to actually help her.

This is largely pointless the main point of the issues in HF is you can't simply remove Zouken without killing Sakura.

Making up some silly bullshit reason why it can somehow be removed in UBW and solves all her issues, but not in HF completely undermines major plot points of HF and makes the majority of the roué worthless. It means Shirou shouldn't have made any o the choices he did in HF because UBW is a better ending for everyone involved since he didn't need to let thousands of people die in order to save her nor risk the entire world.

Sure if you want to degrade the message and purpose of HF through saving Sakura in UBW go right ahead not like I cared much for the route outside of Kotomine.

[GreyZone]

This is largely pointless the main point of the issues in HF is you can't simply remove Zouken without killing Sakura.

Making up some silly bullshit reason why it can somehow be removed in UBW and solves all her issues, but not in HF completely undermines major plot points of HF and makes the majority of the roué worthless.

Sure if you want to degrade the message and purpose of HF through saving Sakura in UBW go right ahead not like I cared much for the route outside of Kotomine.

I think I stay with the motion now, that Sakura either disappears as in the VN, or that Zouken's worms get "sealed" but not removed, leaving an uncertain future for Sakura, because he could be unsealed at some point.

[cyberdemon]

I think I stay with the motion now, that Sakura either disappears as in the VN, or that Zouken's wormed gets "sealed" but not removed, leaving an uncertain future for Sakura, because he could be unsealed at some point.

They will more likely stick to the VN since they have a movie planned for HF anyways.

[mirakura]

At the same time, I was under the impression that in F/Z he was eagerly looking forward to Saber breaking down under the strain of trying to be an ideal king and then going to taste her tears... so while I understand he appreciates certain strong-willed people like Alexander and Waver, it's not a consistent trait...

Yeah, the reason he was infatuated with her was because she was strong-willed also because she wouldn't fall to him easily. Lols, but he did start getting pissed off on epy 24.

@Everyone who wants Sakura to be involved in the anime minus GreyZone.

Bring up some points. How will she be involved? Lorhand has done that just fine but you others haven't. You can't keep saying they will involve Sakura without giving points. And when some points are brought up, you say they don't work. Why not yo bring up points your self?


@Person who said Gil would kill her.

Knowing the person Gil is, he would most likely spare Sakura and make her his pawn or servant. He save her then say something like 'I like you girl, you're very strong willed. You shall become my....'. Though Gil doing that totally destroys the point of having him in UBW.

This is largely pointless the main point of the issues in HF is you can't simply remove Zouken without killing Sakura.

Making up some silly bullshit reason why it can somehow be removed in UBW and solves all her issues, but not in HF completely undermines major plot points of HF and makes the majority of the roué worthless. It means Shirou shouldn't have made any o the choices he did in HF because UBW is a better ending for everyone involved since he didn't need to let thousands of people die in order to save her nor risk the entire world.

Exactly:D


P.S

Tiger Dojo would be a good idea, especially when Ilya's gonna die...

[Cherry_Lover]

I don't think Rin hates Shinji... She actually always looked down on him and probably still did even then. She most likely just got a bit influenced by Shirou's ideals, but it was so subtle, that I only noticed it while we were having this discussion right now. So her finally warming up to Sakura would not really affect the story that much. However then it would also weaken the resolution in the HF movie(s).

In general, I think Rin is somewhat disdainful of Shinji, but probably not outright hateful, no. However, aside from the fact that he abuses Sakura (which Rin knows to an extent even outside of HF), in UBW he also tried to rape and murder her. That is enough reason in itself to hate him.

Conversely, whilst Rin is not great at showing her affection to Sakura and tries to cover it up, she does genuinely love and feel concern for Sakura even at the beginning of the story (part of her reasoning for saving Shirou is that his death will hurt Sakura). Saving Sakura from certain death only tells us that she's not an absolute monster, whereas saving Shinji shows she's extremely kind and forgiving.

I think the only ones who can kill Zouken without Sakura dying are:

1. Zouken himself (suicide, for whatever reason)
2. Dark Sakura
3. Gilgamesh with some concept severing noble phatasm.
4. Caster with some kind of spell
5. Illya controlled by first generation Einzbern

Maybe also Archer...

Also they have to get to know about the worm in her heart first.

I think anyone can do it with sufficient magic. For example, Rin shows at the beginning of the story that she's capable of regenerating a heart, so why couldn't she do that for Sakura?

Aside from that, maybe Zouken's worms can be sealed or something... it would leave Sakura's future vague, as it is unknown wether he will be unsealed again or not. It would therefore not make HF obsolete.

I'm not sure why they need to leave her future "vague". Rin doesn't die in HF, that doesn't make her UBW ending "obsolete".

While Archer would be just as capable as Gilgamesh, merely in terms of "ability", I'd agree with not putting him on the list (along with removing Caster and Illya) due to not knowing about the worm. Even if Caster knew, I don't see why she'd remove it anyway.

Well, post-UBW I'd expect Shirou to be able to do it also. He sees the contents of GoB and of Archer's UBW, after all.

As for Caster, I think she'd do it if it suited her goals, and if she wanted to use Sakura for some other purpose then I think that killing Zouken would help that purpose. There's no reason for it to go that way in UBW, though, so it's unlikely she would.

At least Gilgamesh, being a great King (even if I, and many others, think he's a total dick), could see one of her "training" sessions and bestow some benevolence upon her by freeing her. He wouldn't care if she were crying or begging for help, but the mere fact that she just accepts it might stir something in him.

It would be more likely that he'd see Zouken and decide that he's an asshole who needs to be erased from existence, but that he would rather not kill Sakura for the hell of it. Or, just kill Zouken in a way that doesn't even interact with Sakura.

If I remember correctly, Rin only becomes aware of Sakura's "situation" in HF, so I don't see how she might be considered guilty in UBW.

Yeah, and there's no reason Sakura should feel guilty for the events of HF either, that doesn't mean she won't. If something happens to Sakura, Rin will blame herself. And, whilst she's not really at fault, as such, there certainly are things she could have done to look into Sakura's situation more, and signs that would indicate that she is definitely not alright.

Anyway, my point was more from a story-writer viewpoint. If Sakura's situation is left unresolved, then there is a good chance that Rin will get drawn into it at some point in the future. There are enough signs that she should be able to work out that Sakura has issues (especially when she gets older and wiser), and I can't see her hiding her relationship to Sakura from Shirou forever (not if they're going to have an enduring relationship). And, even if she does forget about Sakura and never investigates her, when something bad inevitably happens to Sakura, Rin will blame herself for failing to look after Sakura better (and with good reason, because she could have investigated more, and the older she gets the less valid her reasons not to have done so become).

So, just leaving her situation unresolved is not only bad for Sakura, it's also bad for Rin in the long term. Conversely, whilst killing her off in-story would hurt Rin, she would feel less responsible for it than if Sakura died far in the future when Rin could have reasonably done more to help her, and there is also no danger of Rin getting herself killed in a rescue attempt.

So, killing Sakura off in-story would make the ending less likely to go wrong for Rin, but only by sacrificing Sakura entirely. Which is something I find extremely distasteful.

Sure, she obviously still cares for her in some way and laments the fact that they were separated as children, but is it really fair to expect her to just waltz in the Matou household and somehow force them to undo an agreement from a decade ago between two magus clans and force them to hand over the child the Matou lineage is counting upon to survive? Not only that, the time Rin and Sakura have spent apart has clearly estranged them and made things rather awkward between them, so that's all the more reason why it might be a little unreasonable to expect her to act in UBW, where she never learns what's really going on with Sakura in the Matou household.

Actually, yes, I think it's totally reasonable for her to say "fuck this stupid agreement" and look into Sakura's situation more closely. Even Rin herself says (when she first visits the Matou house in HF) that it was idiotic of her to stick to that agreement because it has already been broken the moment Sakura was handed over.

don't forget that in the beginning he walked right up to her and said "Go Die now". He doesn't care enough about her to save her.

He also chose not to actively kill her, though.

This is largely pointless the main point of the issues in HF is you can't simply remove Zouken without killing Sakura.

Except that that's not entirely true, as Dark Sakura shows in the end. It's difficult to remove Zouken, and in HF they lack the ability to do so, that doesn't mean it could not be done in other routes or situations.

It means Shirou shouldn't have made any o the choices he did in HF because UBW is a better ending for everyone involved since he didn't need to let thousands of people die in order to save her nor risk the entire world.

That logic doesn't work because "follow the UBW path" was not an option available to Shirou when he got to that point in HF. It's not like he actively made a choice to go down the Sakura route so he could save her....

I think I stay with the motion now, that Sakura either disappears as in the VN, or that Zouken's worms get "sealed" but not removed, leaving an uncertain future for Sakura, because he could be unsealed at some point.

I don't think they should leave her future "uncertain" if they're going to do this. A large part of the point is to make it less of a "what, what about Sakura?" ending, and including an obvious future plot hook that you don't intend to resolve is really not a good way of making a satisfying ending.

@Everyone who wants Sakura to be involved in the anime minus GreyZone.

Bring up some points. How will she be involved? Lorhand has done that just fine but you others haven't. You can't keep saying they will involve Sakura without giving points. And when some points are brought up, you say they don't work. Why not yo bring up points your self?

Well, I don't know how to involve her, honestly. There isn't any obvious solution. I just think that it makes the ending a lot more satisfying if they give the Sakura/Rin stuff some closure, and that killing her off is a really horrible way of doing that.

[Amarantine]

Actually, yes, I think it's totally reasonable for her to say "fuck this stupid agreement" and look into Sakura's situation more closely. Even Rin herself says (when she first visits the Matou house in HF) that it was idiotic of her to stick to that agreement because it has already been broken the moment Sakura was handed over.

Rather than unreasonable, unrealistic is more what I meant. After all, like you said, Rin is still a kid, and at the start of the story she's still trying to fully uphold the whole "being the heir to a great magus family" thing, which implies being a cold and pragmatic person like her father conditioned and raised her up to become.

Of course, her character arc largely consists of her coming to terms with the fact that she's unable to do so and instead accepting her inherently kind nature (to the point of risking her life to save an irredimable asshole like Shinji), so I'd say that after UBW the chances of her looking into Sakura's situation and doing something about it in the future will have certainly increased.

[mirakura]

@CherryLover

It's still possible they will make an OVA to solve the Sakura matter, else just leave it to HF movies.

[Brother Coa]

The anime follows UBW route, how is Sakura handled in UBW route - she will be the same way in anime. They don't really need to add any extra material about her fate in anime, than what we have been shown in VN, when they are going to make a movie(s) about her route anyway.

And why is all of a sudden she the most important Fate character? 90% of all the stuff I can read here lately is about her and it is becoming more and more tiresome. I know that she has fans and that is ok but this is getting pretty tiresome.

[mirakura]

The anime follows UBW route, how is Sakura handled in UBW route - she will be the same way in anime. They don't really need to add any extra material about her fate in anime, than what we have been shown in VN, when they are going to make a movie(s) about her route anyway.

And why is all of a sudden she the most important Fate character? 90% of all the stuff I can read here lately is about her and it is becoming more and more tiresome. I know that she has fans and that is ok but this is getting pretty tiresome.

Lols, yh I feel thesame but outright saying it will cause another waifu war or another route war.:D

That said, lets try not to stray away from topic again. Else, torture from the MODs.

[scyllus]

Not a waifu war really just discussing Sakura's role in UBW is the same as Saber fans wanting additional time for their favourite. Not really a waifu war :cool:


So, just leaving her situation unresolved is not only bad for Sakura, it's also bad for Rin in the long term. Conversely, whilst killing her off in-story would hurt Rin, she would feel less responsible for it than if Sakura died far in the future when Rin could have reasonably done more to help her, and there is also no danger of Rin getting herself killed in a rescue attempt.

So, killing Sakura off in-story would make the ending less likely to go wrong for Rin, but only by sacrificing Sakura entirely. Which is something I find extremely distasteful.




I love Sakura as a character but I could envision her death instead of Illyas as a component for a grial, if only to see how it would affect Rin. Won't happen because of Nasu, but if Saber could die in HF to develop Shriou and Rider, Sakura's death, instead of deus-machina saving method could help develop the heroine, Rin. It would even work better than Illya to bolster Shirou's resolve in his ideal and make his battle against Gil more personal. It would be sad and all, but it's still better than happy-go-lucky UBW true-as Sakura's death should develop Rin and Shirou. But really I'm sure Nasu would object, Fans would rage, and hell would froze over before it could happen. It would also connect some dots from zero without spoiling much from HF.
But should it destroy berserker death march of awesome i am against it :P Bah, it wouldn't have to exclude each other because the fantastic thing about Gil is that you can justify everything he does by him being Gil xD

P.S Just imagine ufo going full LoTR with shirou projecting byakuya and kanshou at the gate to the temple, looking over his shoulder at rin nod, whispering: for Sakura-with grail-kun in the background it really sounds like a rip-off xD:heh:

[Brother Coa]

But why would Sakura and Saber get additional time in Rin's route? Saber is already bada** in that route, only she is not resolved 100% but she has been resolved in 2006 anime so that's ok. Sakura will be too resolved 100% in HF movie, so that leaves anime to be pure Rin. If someone finds that distasteful - then just don't watch it. Watch your favorite route animation instead and be happy.

Judging what decision UFOtable made they will probably go with VN storyline to the letter and that's pretty much it, adding original content only to fil gap between UBW and FZ and that's pretty much it.

[scyllus]

Brother Coa- and honestly what's what I think they will do. But these are just speculations steming from a)original content inclusion b) fate/zero fact of existence c) not everyone is a vn purist. Also filling any hole from zero to ubw have to include Tohsaka sisters and give Saber's decision at the end some context doesn't it?

EDIT: Mirakura you're right xD Let's disscus cutting Rin's involvment in other routes instead xD

[mirakura]

Fans would rage, and hell would froze over before it could happen.

Why will they rage? They're getting UFO do their route right? They should be perfectly content, plus it's Rin's Route so they should expect something like that to give her more characterisation....

P.S

The waifu war will be about which heroine deserves extra time...

[mirakura]

There were a few optimistic posts prior about Saber getting additional char development, but you just had to ruin it! Can we all just come to a consensus about this?

I would say that was possible but...then I wouldn't even be speaking for my self:p

[hinode]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but while Fate/Zero showed the wormpit I don't think it revealed that Zouken implanted his core worm within Sakura. This means there should be room for ufotable to resolve the visible hanging plot threads from Zero in UBW while still leaving the core HF plotline untouched. Something like:

A) Gilgamesh seemingly kills/drives away Zouken while he's nominally under Shinji because he thinks Zouken is a mongrel

B) Gil also clears out the basement of worms because they disgust him

C) Show Shinji treating Sakura better at the end since he's no longer jealous of her

D) Maybe some sort of recognition of Sakura from Rin before she leaves for London

This way Sakura's visible issues from the perspective of Zero-only watchers look resolved, but the complications below the surface are left for until the HF movie(s) where they belong, rather than shoehorning them into UBW badly or trivializing them by somehow completely saving Sakura in a trivial manner.

[Brother Coa]

a)original content inclusion b) fate/zero fact of existence c) not everyone is a vn purist. Also filling any hole from zero to ubw have to include tohsaka sisters and give Saber's decision at the end some context doesn't it?

If they really wanted to take that route they would do something else. Obliviously they saw that doing it differently from VN won't solve anything so they decided to do UBW for anime and HF for movie and call it a day. I also had some theories but the day they announced these two I know that all fell in water because they will probably go pure VN route(s).

And just because they have FZ does not mean they had to follow it, Nasu said it himself. FZ is one anime and this will be the other. I can already tell you that FZ purists will after everything is aired always considered HF movie(s) as true FZ sequel. ( not that they will be 100% right about that but as long as they are happy who cares )

And Saber don't really need any development because she already has 2006 anime, that's the logic behind their decision. She get her closure there ( even if we didn't get True Ending scene ) while Rin will get her in UBW and Sakura in HF - everyone is happy.

I can only hope now that they will also do remake of 2006 anime after they finish UBW and HF to please the biggest fanbase. But even if they don't it's ok, I already got anime, manga and movie home on DVD so I am happy as I can be :).
They remaking 'Fate' route one day will just be bonus for me.

[scyllus]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but while Fate/Zero showed the wormpit I don't think it revealed that Zouken implanted his core worm within Sakura. This means there should be room for ufotable to resolve the visible hanging plot threads from Zero in UBW while still leaving the core HF plotline untouched. Something like:

A) Gilgamesh seemingly kills/drives away Zouken while he's nominally under Shinji because he thinks Zouken is a mongrel

B) Gil also clears out the basement of worms because they disgust him

C) Show Shinji treating Sakura better at the end since he's no longer jealous of her

D) Maybe some sort of recognition of Sakura from Rin before she leaves for London

This way Sakura's visible issues from the perspective of Zero-only watchers look resolved, but the complications below the surface are left for until the HF movie(s) where they belong, rather than shoehorning them into UBW badly or trivializing them by somehow completely saving Sakura in a trivial manner.

A) You can justify Gil by being Gil,and a variation of any character killing Zouken works.
B)Justifiable but requires HF knowledge ( Zouken body made of worms etc.)
C)Zouken lives still, everything minus rape is the same
D)Pandering and just enraging to Sakura fans.Resolves nothing, comes out of nowhere and still hurtful.
But overall these weren't any worse that what was already proposed (also by me)the disscusion continues as Cherry Lover is adamant in his position that "seemingly" saving Sakura is the same as doing nothing at all to help reedem her shafting in UBW true (and if you read his posts closely he's got quite a good reasoning for it). And there's the fact what Nasu said, not a sequel to zero.

[Brother Coa]

But Cherry Lover is adamant in his position that "seemingly" saving Sakura is the same as doing nothing at all to help reedem her shafting in UBW true (and if you read his posts closely he's got quite a good reasoning for it).

So?

If he doesn't like how they deal Sakura per UBW route - he doesn't need to watch it or to love it.

He will have HF movie(s) to watch and love.

[scyllus]

So?

If he doesn't like how they deal Sakura per UBW route - he doesn't need to watch it or to love it.

He will have HF movie(s) to watch and love.

Awww, c'mon there is no need to go personal here.
His points were mostly about Rin's development through Sakura's existence. And that what's very missing in RIN'S route. Of course Razor has a good point that UBW is really an Archer route, but if you want to market it as Rin's route, more development for her is a given. And Sakura is a perfect way to go about it. I would say that replacing Illya by Sakura might be a good way to go for it, but anything could work really.
I do support your point that the Sakura topic should end soon, it will end up in flames.

[Brother Coa]

I am not getting personal - only realistic.

You cannot expect them to give Sakura the same treatment that main heroine in the route will receive. Not to mention that Zouken didn't get involved at all, so after the way Sakura stays with him and that's it. That's what happens in UBW and Fate and I don't see why would they change that when they already decided to do unrelated HF movie(s) to resolve her story as well. Using that they can go fully for UBW true ending, just like they can let Ilya get brutally killed because she has her own anime.

And I agree, speculations need to stop to allow rumors to return. I am coming here to read rumors, not how some would like for x character to end.

[cyberdemon]

I am not getting personal - only realistic.

You cannot expect them to give Sakura the same treatment that main heroine in the route will receive. Not to mention that Zouken didn't get involved at all, so after the way Sakura stays with him and that's it. That's what happens in UBW and Fate and I don't see why would they change that when they already decided to do unrelated HF movie(s) to resolve her story as well. Using that they can go fully for UBW true ending, just like they can let Ilya get brutally killed because she has her own anime.

And I agree, speculations need to stop to allow rumors to return. I am coming here to read rumors, not how some would like for x character to end.

Not to mention Zouken is a cautious one. His plans couldn't take form in UBW. So I seriously doubt he would do anything stupid like come in contact with Gil. He'll play it as low key as possible until the war is over and then start planning for the next war.

[Cherry_Lover]

Rather than unreasonable, unrealistic is more what I meant. After all, like you said, Rin is still a kid, and at the start of the story she's still trying to fully uphold the whole "being the heir to a great magus family" thing, which implies being a cold and pragmatic person like her father conditioned and raised her up to become.

Well, yes, sure, she's not going to do it, but that is a character flaw on her part rather than anything fundamental preventing her doing so. Which means that, if something does happen to Sakura, she's likely to feel extremely guilty about not doing something earlier.

Of course, her character arc largely consists of her coming to terms with the fact that she's unable to do so and instead accepting her inherently kind nature (to the point of risking her life to save an irredimable asshole like Shinji), so I'd say that after UBW the chances of her looking into Sakura's situation and doing something about it in the future will have certainly increased.

Yeah, it's just that that makes the ending lack closure, which isn't really that great when you don't intend to make a sequel.

The anime follows UBW route, how is Sakura handled in UBW route - she will be the same way in anime. They don't really need to add any extra material about her fate in anime, than what we have been shown in VN, when they are going to make a movie(s) about her route anyway.

Except that she's Rin's sister, and people coming from Zero will be aware of this and her situation. That makes it harder for them to just ignore her and still have a satisfactory ending to the story.

I love Sakura as a character but I could envision her death instead of Illyas as a component for a grial, if only to see how it would affect Rin. Won't happen because of Nasu, but if Saber could die in HF to develop Shriou and Rider, Sakura's death, instead of deus-machina saving method could help develop the heroine, Rin. It would even work better than Illya to bolster Shirou's resolve in his ideal and make his battle against Gil more personal. It would be sad and all, but it's still better than happy-go-lucky UBW true-as Sakura's death should develop Rin and Shirou. But really I'm sure Nasu would object, Fans would rage, and hell would froze over before it could happen. It would also connect some dots from zero without spoiling much from HF.

Sakura isn't a Grail outside of HF, though, and even there she's not a proper Grail. You couldn't use her heart like Ilya's.

It's also not resolving the situation at all, it's just using Sakura as a dumb plot sacrifice.

But why would Sakura and Saber get additional time in Rin's route? Saber is already bada** in that route, only she is not resolved 100% but she has been resolved in 2006 anime so that's ok. Sakura will be too resolved 100% in HF movie, so that leaves anime to be pure Rin. If someone finds that distasteful - then just don't watch it. Watch your favorite route animation instead and be happy.

Because Sakura is Rin's sister. You can't cover Rin fully without involving Sakura somehow. The VN leaves it out because of spoilers, but the result is that UBW misses a bunch of development for her (hence why it's often called Archer's route).

Judging what decision UFOtable made they will probably go with VN storyline to the letter and that's pretty much it, adding original content only to fil gap between UBW and FZ and that's pretty much it.

Sakura is part of that "gap", though. As is Saber, for that matter. Coming from Zero, Sakura's relationship with Rin and Saber's problems both need resolving in a way that someone reading the VN would not require.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but while Fate/Zero showed the wormpit I don't think it revealed that Zouken implanted his core worm within Sakura. This means there should be room for ufotable to resolve the visible hanging plot threads from Zero in UBW while still leaving the core HF plotline untouched. Something like:

A) Gilgamesh seemingly kills/drives away Zouken while he's nominally under Shinji because he thinks Zouken is a mongrel

B) Gil also clears out the basement of worms because they disgust him

C) Show Shinji treating Sakura better at the end since he's no longer jealous of her

D) Maybe some sort of recognition of Sakura from Rin before she leaves for London

This way Sakura's visible issues from the perspective of Zero-only watchers look resolved, but the complications below the surface are left for until the HF movie(s) where they belong, rather than shoehorning them into UBW badly or trivializing them by somehow completely saving Sakura in a trivial manner.

Hmm, it's possible, but that would come across really badly to anyone who does know HF, especially since Zouken would need to find a way to bring himself back somehow (which likely means taking Sakura's body).

You cannot expect them to give Sakura the same treatment that main heroine in the route will receive. Not to mention that Zouken didn't get involved at all, so after the way Sakura stays with him and that's it. That's what happens in UBW and Fate and I don't see why would they change that when they already decided to do unrelated HF movie(s) to resolve her story as well. Using that they can go fully for UBW true ending, just like they can let Ilya get brutally killed because she has her own anime.

Rin is Sakura's sister. As someone who is supposedly a good person, I would expect her not to just abandon and forget about her own little sister....

Not to mention Zouken is a cautious one. His plans couldn't take form in UBW. So I seriously doubt he would do anything stupid like come in contact with Gil. He'll play it as low key as possible until the war is over and then start planning for the next war.

Well, canonically Shinji takes Gil into the basement, at least. So it's possible Zouken could die then.

[mirakura]

I know I've been talking about plot changes an'all but, wouldn't any original scenes change the plot anyway?

[cyberdemon]

Well, canonically Shinji takes Gil into the basement, at least. So it's possible Zouken could die then.

That is all the more reason for him to disappear and stay out of sight of everyone for the remainder of the grail war. He's not the type who will le himself die before he could even start his plans.

Chances are most likely that UBW will remain UBW and HF will remain HF without mixing the 2 since they are each getting an adaption.

I know I've been talking about plot changes an'all but, wouldn't any original scenes change the plot anyway?

Not really. It could expand the plot without changing it. Like maybe showing more on Archer's past and how it played out and such.

[hinode]

I know I've been talking about plot changes an'all but, wouldn't any original scenes change the plot anyway?

The original magazine line about new scenes was:

Since nobody's bothering, Miura's talking about the scenario meetings and how Nasu was talking about this stuff you couldn't figure out from just playing the game and background tidbits.
The interviewer asks him what kind of stuff this was and Miura gives an answer that wasn't put on print.
The interviewer's excited response was that was information that really was new info that wasn't in any of the Type Moon material books. And wowzers.

So we should be getting events that technically happened in the VN but were never shown or even really implied.

Sadly a bad translation turned this into "original content for an original route" and thus we got months of speculation all across the internet that ended up being waaaaaaay off the mark.

[cyberdemon]

The original magazine line about new scenes was:



So we should be getting events that technically happened in the VN but were never shown or even really implied.

Sadly a bad translation turned this into "original content for an original route" and thus we got months of speculation all across the internet that ended up being waaaaaaay off the mark.

No we got days of it before it was corrected followed by months from those who refused to accept that it was a mistranslation originally lol.

But information that we couldn't figure out through the game. This has me curious. anyone have any ideas what it could be? It won't be specifically stated in the routes if this is the case while still being there.

[mirakura]

No we got days of it before it was corrected followed by months from those who refused to accept that it was a mistranslation originally lol.

But information that we couldn't figure out through the game. This has me curious. anyone have any ideas what it could be? It won't be specifically stated in the routes if this is the case while still being there.

Yh but, what extra info could there be? As far as i'm concerned, my fav chara's got enough info in that route. And Sakura doesn't have enough but thats kept for plot-twist. We need Rin and Archer fans for help if they have any suggestions:cool:

[cyberdemon]

Yh but, what extra info could there be? As far as i'm concerned, my fav chara's got enough info in that route. And Sakura doesn't have enough but thats kept for plot-twist. We need Rin and Archer fans for help if they have any suggestions:cool:

I can imagine more behind the scenes stuff with Rin concerning Sakura. I don't think they will change how UBW turned out and probably won't increase Sakura's presence or ending. There probably won't be a true reconciliation which is how the VN route went but show more about Rin looking after Sakura and such. Basically just show what has been hinted of Rin but not change anything about the route.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

I'm guessing it's shit like Bazett, various off panel battles and maybe Rin stalking Sakura. There also a bit ofextra information Fate/extra goes into regarding Archer's backstory but the VN does not vut I'm not entirely sure they'll put it in.

[Altima of the Gates]

Well the best way for people to guess what will happen is just to read the VN and mark down the stuff that was skipped due to not being observed by Shirou or off-camera stuff. UBW as a route was the shortest, so getting a full anime would allow exploration of most branching parts of that. Good things to include would be more info about Kuzuki, seems he doesn't really get much in the way of character development and isn't that explored even in Hollow. Maybe more stuff concerning what happened to Rider. The anime has the advantage of being able to do more off-camera things, but only what we saw hinted at in the route itself. No need to speculate much further than that. Nor do I think they meant that they will change the outcome, so it's a waste of time to speculate on possible ways for them to change it, since they just meant things we didn't get to see.

[Amarantine]

Well the best way for people to guess what will happen is just to read the VN and mark down the stuff that was skipped due to not being observed by Shirou or off-camera stuff. UBW as a route was the shortest, so getting a full anime would allow exploration of most branching parts of that. Good things to include would be more info about Kuzuki, seems he doesn't really get much in the way of character development and isn't that explored even in Hollow. Maybe more stuff concerning what happened to Rider. The anime has the advantage of being able to do more off-camera things, but only what we saw hinted at in the route itself. No need to speculate much further than that. Nor do I think they meant that they will change the outcome, so it's a waste of time to speculate on possible ways for them to change it, since they just meant things we didn't get to see.

If we're going off stuff that happened off-screen, then there's always Assassin fighting just about every Servant and managing to prevent them from getting into Ryudou Temple. I'd certainly be curious to see him fending off Berserker as supposedly happened.

[Cherry_Lover]

I can imagine more behind the scenes stuff with Rin concerning Sakura. I don't think they will change how UBW turned out and probably won't increase Sakura's presence or ending. There probably won't be a true reconciliation which is how the VN route went but show more about Rin looking after Sakura and such. Basically just show what has been hinted of Rin but not change anything about the route.

Well, given that we see Shinji take Gil into the basement during UBW and squash a few worms, it's possible that it is meant to be implied that Zouken gets killed off, and the anime will show that to be the case. After all, we never see any evidence that Zouken is alive past that point, so it would be entirely consistent with the story for that to be true, and it would certainly eliminate a lot of the uncertainty around Sakura's fate.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Well, given that we see Shinji take Gil into the basement during UBW and squash a few worms, it's possible that it is meant to be implied that Zouken gets killed off, and the anime will show that to be the case. After all, we never see any evidence that Zouken is alive past that point, so it would be entirely consistent with the story for that to be true, and it would certainly eliminate a lot of the uncertainty around Sakura's fate.

Zouken's inside Sakura and I doubt Gilgamesh cares enough to go out of his way to save Sakura if he wanted to kill Zouken. Your basing all this on the fact that Gilgamesh is such a nice guy that he'd go out of his way to save Sakura. Gilgamesh doesn't care about mongrels, he let waver go out of his loyalty to Alexander someone Gilgamesh considers worthy.

Unless Sakura swears unfailing loyalty to Gilgamesh, I can't see how your little scenario would even work out in regards to character portrayal.

[Endscape]

Zouken's inside Sakura and I doubt Gilgamesh cares enough to go out of his way to save Sakura if he wanted to kill Zouken. Your basing all this on the fact that Gilgamesh is such a nice guy that he'd go out of his way to save Sakura. Gilgamesh doesn't care about mongrels, he let waver go out of his loyalty to Alexander someone Gilgamesh considers worthy.

Unless Sakura swears unfailing loyalty to Gilgamesh, I can't see how your little scenario would even work out in regards to character portrayal.

Gilgamesh doesn't have to care about Sakura to want to get rid of Zouken.

In fact, Zouken is so disgusting that he would get rid of him on general principle. That would be pretty in character for Gilgamesh, and he could really do it with some weapon from Gate of Babylon.

[cyberdemon]

Well, given that we see Shinji take Gil into the basement during UBW and squash a few worms, it's possible that it is meant to be implied that Zouken gets killed off, and the anime will show that to be the case. After all, we never see any evidence that Zouken is alive past that point, so it would be entirely consistent with the story for that to be true, and it would certainly eliminate a lot of the uncertainty around Sakura's fate.

They aren't going to make such a big change to the route. They will use HF to deal with that storyline. Gil would also just as likely kill Sakura. She still holds inactive command spells (Kirei would know that she was the true master of Rider) and he would probably just see her as weak for not fighting back and just allowing this to happen to her. Waver stood up for himself against Gil and proved his beliefs and loyalty to Broskander. That was why Waver was spared by Gil. Sakura hadn't done anything like that in UBW. Her growth is entirely in HF.

[Cherry_Lover]

They aren't going to make such a big change to the route. They will use HF to deal with that storyline. Gil would also just as likely kill Sakura. She still holds inactive command spells (Kirei would know that she was the true master of Rider) and he would probably just see her as weak for not fighting back and just allowing this to happen to her. Waver stood up for himself against Gil and proved his beliefs and loyalty to Broskander. That was why Waver was spared by Gil. Sakura hadn't done anything like that in UBW. Her growth is entirely in HF.

But it's not a "big change", because Zouken dying has precisely zero impact on the story. In fact, if it is meant to be implied by the basement scene then they're not changing anything at all.

Further, it does make logical sense that assuing Zouken's death was intended, because otherwise there is literally no reason to show an interlude with Shinji taking Gil into the basement and crushing worms (remember that this is in UBW, so the readers don't know about the basement at that point). They couldn't make it explicit what was happening in the VN because it would be a HF spoiler, but the UBW anime is likely to assume that people already know about Zouken, so that's not a problem.

As for why Gil would be there, he's Shinji's "servant" at the time, and is shown canonically going into the basement in an interlude. It makes sense that he might have killed Zouken at that point. And, we know Sakura survives to the end of the route, so he can't have killed her.

I'm not saying it's certain, but it's definitely a possibility, and it would provide resolution to Sakura's situation in UBW without having to change the plot in any way.

[mirakura]

They aren't going to make such a big change to the route. They will use HF to deal with that storyline. Gil would also just as likely kill Sakura. She still holds inactive command spells (Kirei would know that she was the true master of Rider) and he would probably just see her as weak for not fighting back and just allowing this to happen to her. Waver stood up for himself against Gil and proved his beliefs and loyalty to Broskander. That was why Waver was spared by Gil. Sakura hadn't done anything like that in UBW. Her growth is entirely in HF.

Gil might spare her after seeing she had to live with worms for such a long time. He is a pretty nice guy(as in a tsun)so you never know.;)

@Cherry Lover

But wouldn't the worm still be in Sakura's heart?

[Cherry_Lover]

Gil might spare her after seeing she had to live with worms for such a long time. He is a pretty nice guy(as in a tsun)so you never know.;)

Well, we know Sakura doesn't die, because she's still around in the epilogue. Zouken, on the other hand, is never mentioned after that point (even though he is mentioned prior to it, when he calls Shirou's house to tell Sakura to return home), so his death would be possible.

@Cherry Lover

But wouldn't the worm still be in Sakura's heart?

Well, it depends on how he is killed. It is possible, yes, but at very least we know Zouken cannot have taken Sakura's body, because Sakura is still alive in the epilogue. I'd imagine that, if they were intending to imply Zouken's death in the original VN, they'd make it stick, though, since otherwise why bother?

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Gilgamesh doesn't have to care about Sakura to want to get rid of Zouken.

In fact, Zouken is so disgusting that he would get rid of him on general principle. That would be pretty in character for Gilgamesh, and he could really do it with some weapon from Gate of Babylon.

Yes and Sakura would die also. Zouken is in Sakura. It would be far easier for Gilgamesh to kill Sakura also and it makes no sense for him to go out of his way to save her.

Plus nothing really disgusts Gilgamesh in that context your thinking of, if you believed that you'd miss the point of his character. He didn't push Kotomine down the path he did because that sort of shit ever really actually repulsed him, he's far more interested in seeing what he considers interesting people entertaining him than he is about any remotest context of morality.

He only dislikes people who directly offend him, e.g copy his weapons, steal his weapons, show him absolutely no respect. Someone like Zouken who simply schemes and is vile is simply the type of person Gilgamesh would rather observe than destroy.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yes and Sakura would die also. Zouken is in Sakura. It would be far easier for Gilgamesh to kill Sakura also and it makes no sense for him to go out of his way to save her.

It depends on the method of killing. There is no reason to assume that Gil is incapable of killing Zouken without destroying the worm in Sakura's heart.

Plus nothing really disgusts Gilgamesh in that context your thinking of, if you believed that you'd miss the point of his character. He didn't push Kotomine down the path he did because that sort of shit ever really actually repulsed him, he's far more interested in seeing what he considers interesting people entertaining him than he is about any remotest context of morality.

He only dislikes people who directly offend him, e.g copy his weapons, steal his weapons, show him absolutely no respect. Someone like Zouken who simply schemes and is vile is simply the type of person Gilgamesh would rather observe than destroy.

I dunno, I think he'd still find Zouken somewhat repulsive. For one thing, Gil is pretty big on the whole "no-one but me is allowed to kill people" thing, which Zouken very much breaks. Plus, Zouken's fixation on living no matter what and general lack of humanity is one I'd expect Gil not to approve of. Even Kotomine thinks Zouken should die.

Plus, it's entirely possible that Shinji suggested it, and Gil went along with it just because. Shinji is not exactly fond of Zouken, after all, Zouken treats him with utter contempt.

Like I said, the question is why Gil is even in the basement in the first place otherwise, and especially why it was used as an interlude. It serves literally no purpose unless it's to imply Zouken's death.

[mirakura]

Yes and Sakura would die also. Zouken is in Sakura. It would be far easier for Gilgamesh to kill Sakura also and it makes no sense for him to go out of his way to save her.

Plus nothing really disgusts Gilgamesh in that context your thinking of, if you believed that you'd miss the point of his character. He didn't push Kotomine down the path he did because that sort of shit ever really actually repulsed him, he's far more interested in seeing what he considers interesting people entertaining him than he is about any remotest context of morality.

He only dislikes people who directly offend him, e.g copy his weapons, steal his weapons, show him absolutely no respect. Someone like Zouken who simply schemes and is vile is simply the type of person Gilgamesh would rather observe than destroy.

The king hates worms
My king loves lions :3

Gil will kill him because he will consider him not worth living on his land/property, whatever he calls the world...

[cyberdemon]

Well, we know Sakura doesn't die, because she's still around in the epilogue. Zouken, on the other hand, is never mentioned after that point (even though he is mentioned prior to it, when he calls Shirou's house to tell Sakura to return home), so his death would be possible.



Well, it depends on how he is killed. It is possible, yes, but at very least we know Zouken cannot have taken Sakura's body, because Sakura is still alive in the epilogue. I'd imagine that, if they were intending to imply Zouken's death in the original VN, they'd make it stick, though, since otherwise why bother?

he isn't implied to have died in either Fate or UBW. Also Gil couldn't have known that about the worm in Sakuras's heart. He only knows that she is a fake grail. Even Kirei didn't know that part. He knew she was a fake grail and likely knew she was the master of rider but until he performed the surgery in HF, he couldn't have known about the worm wrapped around her heart. Even if Gil deemed it ok to spare her after killing Zouken and the worms in the basement. that worm would take over and Zouken wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice Sakura so that he could continue on living despite his plans not working.

It depends on the method of killing. There is no reason to assume that Gil is incapable of killing Zouken without destroying the worm in Sakura's heart.

That worm HAS to be killed for Zouken to die, so long as one worm survives, he could poccess the body of another and continue living. No one besides Zouken and MAYBE Sakura even knows that it is there. Sakura wouldbe ashamed to say anything and Zouken definitely wouldn't say anything.

[GDB]

Plus, it's entirely possible that Shinji suggested it, and Gil went along with it just because. Shinji is not exactly fond of Zouken, after all, Zouken treats him with utter contempt.

And logically, if Zouken were still alive after that, Shinji wouldn't be for very long after the route ended. However, we know that he does live on and turned over a new leaf (to some extent, anyway), which implies he never incurs Zouken's wrath for taking Gil to the basement.

[cyberdemon]

And logically, if Zouken were still alive after that, Shinji wouldn't be for very long after the route ended. However, we know that he does live on and turned over a new leaf (to some extent, anyway), which implies he never incurs Zouken's wrath for taking Gil to the basement.

yeah. it is also far more likely he was just in the basement doing research on Sakura as a fake holy grail for his and Kirei's plans. It never amounted to much though because the war ended before Sakura could be used since AM couldn't exert its influence on her. Sakura also hadn't absorbed any souls of heroic spirits by that time so she was useless to them by that point

[Tenchi Hou Take]

The king hates worms
My king loves lions :3

Gil will kill him because he will consider him not worth living on his land/property, whatever he calls the world...

Gil would have killed him long before the 5th Holy Grail war if your logic actually held up.

Fact of the matter is he didn't despite living their for a decade. People keep forgetting this fact.

[Cherry_Lover]

he isn't implied to have died in either Fate or UBW.

In Fate, no, but in UBW there is a scene where Gil goes to the basement with Shinji and is shown crushing worms. That at least could imply that Zouken has been killed. It sounds to me like exactly the sort of implication they could be talking about making more explicit here.

Also Gil couldn't have known that about the worm in Sakuras's heart. He only knows that she is a fake grail. Even Kirei didn't know that part. He knew she was a fake grail and likely knew she was the master of rider but until he performed the surgery in HF, he couldn't have known about the worm wrapped around her heart. Even if Gil deemed it ok to spare her after killing Zouken and the worms in the basement. that worm would take over and Zouken wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice Sakura so that he could continue on living despite his plans not working.

Yes, but we know Sakura is not dead post-UBW, so that could not have happened.

That worm HAS to be killed for Zouken to die, so long as one worm survives, he could poccess the body of another and continue living. No one besides Zouken and MAYBE Sakura even knows that it is there. Sakura wouldbe ashamed to say anything and Zouken definitely wouldn't say anything.

Why does that worm have to be killed for Zouken to die? That is true if you kill him by normal methods, yes, but Gil is not normal....

And logically, if Zouken were still alive after that, Shinji wouldn't be for very long after the route ended. However, we know that he does live on and turned over a new leaf (to some extent, anyway), which implies he never incurs Zouken's wrath for taking Gil to the basement.

Yeah, true.

I can't say for sure that this is the case, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. The "Gil in the basement" scene seems to me to be exactly the sort of implication they could be talking about being more explicit.

yeah. it is also far more likely he was just in the basement doing research on Sakura as a fake holy grail for his and Kirei's plans. It never amounted to much though because the war ended before Sakura could be used since AM couldn't exert its influence on her. Sakura also hadn't absorbed any souls of heroic spirits by that time so she was useless to them by that point

Why would they bother showing an interlude for that, though? It has literally no purpose to it.

And, in UBW Sakura was never going to be used as a Grail and couldn't realistically be activated by that point, so why bother researching? Particularly since Shinji knows nothing at all about it, so wouldn't suggest any such thing.

[mirakura]

Gil would have killed him long before the 5th Holy Grail war if your logic actually held up.

Fact of the matter is he didn't despite living their for a decade. People keep forgetting this fact.

He might have spared him to observe what he was doing...just for the fun of it :3

[Endscape]

Gil would have killed him long before the 5th Holy Grail war if your logic actually held up.

Fact of the matter is he didn't despite living their for a decade. People keep forgetting this fact.

You're forgetting that logic is meaningless to Gilgamesh. He just moves on a whim.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

He might have spared him to observe what he was doing...just for the fun of it :3

Which was what I was saying, precisely what would have changed his mind now?

Anyway we already know Waver and Rin destroy the greater Grail in practically all routes. There's a war between Waver's faction and those that want the Holy Grail Wars to continue. I can't imagine Zouken sat back and let them destroy the grail. Considering Waver won and Zouken had nothing else to really live, that's probably when Zouken dies in Fate and UBW.

You're forgetting that logic is meaningless to Gilgamesh. He just moves on a whim.

Neh gil is fairly consistent he's not a schemer but he certainly insistent entirely random. He pushed Kirei with a specific idea and had a very good idea of what the end result would be, he had planned to watch Saber despair until she would finally be broken, at which point he planned to take her. He has no real overall goal but he is consistent in his actions he doesn't change them for no real reason.

[cyberdemon]

Yes, but we know Sakura is not dead post-UBW, so that could not have happened.



Why does that worm have to be killed for Zouken to die? That is true if you kill him by normal methods, yes, but Gil is not normal....

Zouken's life is tied to the worms. He will live so long as one survives. That is a fact that has been set in stone in the series.

That Sakura is alive means that Zouken has yet to NEED to take advantage of the heart worm yet. Meaning that he is still alive.

Gil has never been shown to have a weapon that you seem to wish he has. Plus even if he had it, does he even have the skills to use it? Gil's ability is all about quantity an not quality. He'd go for big flashy attacks to get things done rather than go in for CQC.

Why would they bother showing an interlude for that, though? It has literally no purpose to it.

And, in UBW Sakura was never going to be used as a Grail and couldn't realistically be activated by that point, so why bother researching? Particularly since Shinji knows nothing at all about it, so wouldn't suggest any such thing.

It's just foreshadowing for the next route. They did the same thing in Fate for Archer despite not going into who he was then.

[Amarantine]

Why would they bother showing an interlude for that, though? It has literally no purpose to it.

Er, the purpose of the interlude was the same as that of any other scene where Shirou wasn't present, i.e. to show what other characters are doing in the meantime and to be able to advance the story and develop the supporting cast without the main character being present. That scene shows us how Shinji feels about the Matou household and his position in it, and, more importantly, it develops Gilgamesh's character and shows his motivation for taking action. That's clearly the point of showing the two of them interacting, since otherwise Gil would have been underdeveloped as the main antagonist of the route.

Him crushing worms at the end just seems to me like a small and superficial detail to end the scene on a somewhat emphatic note. Reading Zouken's death into it seems like a huge stretch to me, but to each their own interpretation, I suppose.

[Cherry_Lover]

Zouken's life is tied to the worms. He will live so long as one survives. That is a fact that has been set in stone in the series.

No, not really. Zouken dies in HF despite having worms remaining, and Gil likely possesses weaponry that can bypass that.

That Sakura is alive means that Zouken has yet to NEED to take advantage of the heart worm yet. Meaning that he is still alive.

Or, that he couldn't take advantage of it, meaning that he is dead....

All we do know is that Gil was crushing worms in the basement. It makes sense that at very least he would have killed a whole bunch of them and significantly weakened Zouken, but Zouken never kills Sakura as a result, meaning he may well be dead.

Gil has never been shown to have a weapon that you seem to wish he has. Plus even if he had it, does he even have the skills to use it? Gil's ability is all about quantity an not quality. He'd go for big flashy attacks to get things done rather than go in for CQC.

Every time Gil is shown to need a weapon to do something, he pulls it out of GoB. Gil has pretty much every conceivable weapon. There is no reason to assume he would not have a weapon that could kill Zouken.

It's just foreshadowing for the next route. They did the same thing in Fate for Archer despite not going into who he was then.

It's pointless foreshadowing, though. It shows nothing of use. And, it's an interlude, so it's not even something that would obviously be shown.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

No, not really. Zouken dies in HF despite having worms remaining, and Gil likely possesses weaponry that can bypass that.



Or, that he couldn't take advantage of it, meaning that he is dead....

All we do know is that Gil was crushing worms in the basement. It makes sense that at very least he would have killed a whole bunch of them and significantly weakened Zouken, but Zouken never kills Sakura as a result, meaning he may well be dead.



Every time Gil is shown to need a weapon to do something, he pulls it out of GoB. Gil has pretty much every conceivable weapon. There is no reason to assume he would not have a weapon that could kill Zouken.



It's pointless foreshadowing, though. It shows nothing of use. And, it's an interlude, so it's not even something that would obviously be shown.

Pointless foreshadowing is exactly what it is. You can't change that, it may now be considered something else if your idea somehow ends up in this adaptation but for the years after the VN released that's what it was. Nasu never stated anything to the effect of what you were implying and despite several rewrites of the story, extra information released nothing else was added. So yes that's what it was. That's the purpose it served.

[GDB]

Even if he doesn't, for some strange reason, have a weapon that can kill Zouken without killing Sakura, it'd be weird to also not have some sort of weapon that could seal him.

It just doesn't make sense for Zouken to still be around and Shinji survive after the route with what transpired. I'm not even taking Sakura not being killed into consideration here, since it really doesn't matter to the point that Shinji survives without incurring Zouken's wrath.

[Endscape]

Neh gil is fairly consistent he's not a schemer but he certainly insistent entirely random. He pushed Kirei with a specific idea and had a very good idea of what the end result would be, he had planned to watch Saber despair until she would finally be broken, at which point he planned to take her. He has no real overall goal but he is consistent in his actions he doesn't change them for no real reason.

No one ever said he did any of that.

Gilgamesh is like a cat, if he feels like doing something, he'll do it. He could have known about Zouken for years, ignored him and just spontaneously decided to kill him once he saw him, it's perfectly in character for Gil.


That Sakura is alive means that Zouken has yet to NEED to take advantage of the heart worm yet. Meaning that he is still alive.

Gil has never been shown to have a weapon that you seem to wish he has. Plus even if he had it, does he even have the skills to use it? Gil's ability is all about quantity an not quality. He'd go for big flashy attacks to get things done rather than go in for CQC.

What are you talking about?

Gil's whole shtick is that he has an infinite number of weapons with unique abilities, so he can counter just about any kind of ability. We see him using weapons with those sort of abilities all the time.

It certainly wouldn't be odd if he has a weapon that can target the soul or something.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Even if he doesn't, for some strange reason, have a weapon that can kill Zouken without killing Sakura, it'd be weird to also not have some sort of weapon that could seal him.

It just doesn't make sense for Zouken to still be around and Shinji survive after the route with what transpired. I'm not even taking Sakura not being killed into consideration here, since it really doesn't matter to the point that Shinji survives without incurring Zouken's wrath.

Zouken has no reason to fear Shinji and there's plenty of things he could have done to Shinji while Shinji remains alive. Plus he perhaps wants Shinji to continue his line for whatever reason. There's numerous reasons why Shinji could have survived.

No one ever said he did any of that.

Gilgamesh is like a cat, if he feels like doing something, he'll do it. He could have known about Zouken for years, ignored him and just spontaneously decided to kill him once he saw him, it's perfectly in character for Gil.



What are you talking about?

Gil's whole shtick is that he has an infinite number of weapons with unique abilities, so he can counter just about any kind of ability. We see him using weapons with those sort of abilities all the time.

It certainly wouldn't be odd if he has a weapon that can target the soul or something.

He certainly said that at least for Saber he made his intentions perfectly clear. But you still have explained why he would save Sakura in all of this and your entire argument resolves around gil being a walking talking deus ex machine. Your not giving reasons for anything.

[mirakura]

No one ever said he did any of that.

Gilgamesh is like a cat, if he feels like doing something, he'll do it. He could have known about Zouken for years, ignored him and just spontaneously decided to kill him once he saw him, it's perfectly in character for Gil.





Exactly:heh:

[GDB]

Zouken killed Shinji's mother just for not having a magical enough uterus. Pretty sure directly defying him and crushing his worms, while bringing a dangerous threat like Gilgamesh to his workshop, would incur enough wrath that Shinji wouldn't just be out and about living a normal life.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Zouken killed Shinji's mother just for not having a magical enough uterus. Pretty sure directly defying him and crushing his worms, while bringing a dangerous threat like Gilgamesh to his workshop, would incur enough wrath that Shinji wouldn't just be out and about living a normal life.

Yet for all these centuries the Matou family has survived. Why do you think that is. If he wants to he could easily reign Shinji in as he's done for many others. Zouken still thinks they have use hence why he keeps them around.

[GreyZone]

Yet for all these centuries the Matou family has survived. Why do you think that is.

Zouken did state though that Shinji would be "the last generation", i.e. there would be no more Matous after Shinji dies, which is exactly what Zouken planned. This sentence only makes sense if Shinji dies before he makes a girl pregnant, which could happen quite easily considering Shinji's popularity among girls. So Zouken killing Shinji makes very much sense. "Letting Shinji live a peaceful life without being a Mage" does not seem Zouken's style.

[Endscape]

Yet for all these centuries the Matou family has survived. Why do you think that is.

Because Zouken had a use for them. However, Shinji, from Zouken's PoV, is completely useless, so it's unlikely he'd let Shinji just continue living after that disrespect he showed him.

[GDB]

There's no indication that there was any defiance from the line until Byakuya and Kariya's generation. Kariya defied the family, despite being a suitable heir, which left Byakuya to produce an heir. He wasn't very adept at magic, but he wasn't useless, so he could still continue the line. He and his wife gave birth to the useless Shinji, who had no magical circuits, and thus would be the end of the line. That's why Sakura was brought in to become the new heir. If Kariya hadn't betrayed the family, it'd have continued just as it had for hundreds of years.

So... not really sure what you're trying to imply, unless you think I'm saying that Zouken kills every member of the family, which is obviously not what I'm saying?

[Cherry_Lover]

Pointless foreshadowing is exactly what it is. You can't change that, it may now be considered something else if your idea somehow ends up in this adaptation but for the years after the VN released that's what it was.

Actually, based on what was said in the article, if Zouken dying in that way does end up in this adaptation then it was clearly meant from the beginning to be a hint that he was dead. They said they would add new information that was implied in the VN but not explicit, and this would fit that perfectly, if it is true.

Of course, I could be wrong about it and it will turn out that Zouken isn't dead after all, but if he does die in the UBW anime in a way that does not contradict the original VN, then it is almost certain that, in Nasu's mind, he died in the same way in the VN.

Nasu never stated anything to the effect of what you were implying and despite several rewrites of the story, extra information released nothing else was added.

Except that this discussion started because of a comment that said the anime would have scenes revealing things that had happened in the VN, but were not explicitly shown. What I'm suggesting seems to fit that perfectly.

The reason no additional information is added to cover this in more detail is because it would be a spoiler. They can't show Zouken dying in UBW explicitly without people knowing more about Zouken.

So yes that's what it was. That's the purpose it served.

How can you say that? You have no information whatsoever on why Nasu added it, you're just asserting that he added it as pointless foreshadowing with no evidence whatsoever to demonstrate that.

Zouken has no reason to fear Shinji and there's plenty of things he could have done to Shinji while Shinji remains alive. Plus he perhaps wants Shinji to continue his line for whatever reason. There's numerous reasons why Shinji could have survived.

Zouken is really quite vindictive, and the fact that Zouken was quite OK to put Shinji in harm's way in the Grail War (which he would outright expect Shinji to die in, based on past wars) shows how little Zouken cares for his survival.

Further, Shinji post-UBW has reformed and is a lot less of a dick, which means that he is both no longer as useful to Zouken, and also potentially an outright threat (because he knows what Zouken is doing to Sakura, and his nicer outlook means he might actually tell someone).

But you still have explained why he would save Sakura in all of this and your entire argument resolves around gil being a walking talking deus ex machine. Your not giving reasons for anything.

None of our argument relies on him wanting to save Sakura, though. She would be incidental at best, killing Zouken would be the goal. And, I am sure Gil possesses weapons that can do so without harming Sakura, or even coming into contact with her.

We don't have any specific examples, but Gil is the master of pulling weapons out of his ass to deal with any problems. Further, Gil has All-Seeing Eye, which means that he automatically knows what it would take to kill Zouken. So, yeah, our argument does revolve around Gil being a walking Deus-Ex Machina, but that's because he is. Gil possesses a prototype of every Noble Phantasm that exists, as well as a shitload of other stuff. I would be astounded if he lacks the capacity to kill Zouken without harming Sakura, and extremely surprised if he lacks the capacity to kill Zouken without even seeing Sakura.

Because Zouken had a use for them. However, Shinji, from Zouken's PoV, is completely useless, so it's unlikely he'd let Shinji just continue living after that disrespect he showed him.

Not entirely, Shinji was useful in helping break Sakura (see HF, for example). However, that only works because Zouken twisted him into being a total dick. Now that he's a lot nicer, it no longer applies, and Shinji is, if anything, a liability.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

There's no indication that there was any defiance from the line until Byakuya and Kariya's generation. Kariya defied the family, despite being a suitable heir, which left Byakuya to produce an heir. He wasn't very adept at magic, but he wasn't useless, so he could still continue the line. He and his wife gave birth to the useless Shinji, who had no magical circuits, and thus would be the end of the line. That's why Sakura was brought in to become the new heir. If Kariya hadn't betrayed the family, it'd have continued just as it had for hundreds of years.

So... not really sure what you're trying to imply, unless you think I'm saying that Zouken kills every member of the family, which is obviously not what I'm saying?

Yeah I had forgotten about the part where Shinji was utterly useless.

Though I'd like to point out that Shinji wasn't actually shown to hate Zouken not even in that interlude. Quite the opposite actually he hated his father and his mother and honestly thought Zouken wanted him to be the next heir. So he wasn't actually betraying Zouken. Just being an idiot.

[mirakura]

That said, how do you think they will handle Rin and Sakura's relationship?

[Tenchi Hou Take]

That said, how do you think they will handle Rin and Sakura's relationship?

Can't imagine they'll feel the need to bother too much that's the entire point of a HF adaptation. They could probably have them barely interact but have have various scenes of Rin stalking her, since that's basically what the VN said she did since she was still trying to be a proper Tohsaka heir.

[cyberdemon]

Can't imagine they'll feel the need to bother too much that's the entire point of a HF adaptation. They could probably have them barely interact but have have various scenes of Rin stalking her, since that's basically what the VN said she did since she was still trying to be a proper Tohsaka heir.

Agreed. They aren't going to handle that or Sakura's issues since that is the point of them making the HF movie. The most it will go into is showing that Rin does look out for Sakura in secret.

[Cherry_Lover]

Agreed. They aren't going to handle that or Sakura's issues since that is the point of them making the HF movie. The most it will go into is showing that Rin does look out for Sakura in secret.

I'm not remotely convinced of that. Like I said before, the Zouken death thing seems to fit perfectly with the "original scenes covering things implied in the VN" idea. I'm not saying it's certain, but it's a high possibility.

[Nayrael]

They won't go too far into the issue because it would result in domino effect of having to go further and further into the issue the more they add. Not only do they have HF for Sakura's story, but there is a limit of how many episodes the Anime can have.

Any additions will be very minor at best. And by very minor I mean content that will only last few seconds. In other words, barely worth looking forward to. Also, Nasu seems to be quite wary of changes to the story.

[chaos_alfa]

I'm not remotely convinced of that. Like I said before, the Zouken death thing seems to fit perfectly with the "original scenes covering things implied in the VN" idea. I'm not saying it's certain, but it's a high possibility.

If they are going to do that they should probably only make it look like he was defeated. Afterward when the viewers see the HF movie(s) they will discover Sakura still had one of Zouken's worms inside of her heart and Zouken wasn't actually defeated at the end of UBW. If Zouken would get totally defeated in UBW he would look less threatening in the HF movie(s). By doing it this way the viewer will think all the plot threads of Fate/Zero have been wrapped up, without it actually being the case.

[mirakura]

Any additions will be very minor at best. And by very minor I mean content that will only last few seconds. In other words, barely worth looking forward to. Also, Nasu seems to be quite wary of changes to the story.

If I remember correctly, someone said something about UBW being the shortest route. In the first adaptation, they added extra scenes, which means that the original content wouldn't last just for a few seconds....And if it did, then what's the point of mentioning it at all? It'll just get fans pissed off....

[cyberdemon]

If I remember correctly, someone said something about UBW being the shortest route. In the first adaptation, they added extra scenes, which means that the original content wouldn't last just for a few seconds....And if it did, then what's the point of mentioning it at all? It'll just get fans pissed off....

I don't know if it is the shortest route or not but any route in FSN is still rather long. It all depends on how well they pace the series and how they expand the fight scenes. Adding new scenes is a delicate issue especially after the 2006 anime so they won't go overboard on them.

[GreyZone]

I don't know if it is the shortest route or not but any route in FSN is still rather long. It all depends on how well they pace the series and how they expand the fight scenes. Adding new scenes is a delicate issue especially after the 2006 anime so they won't go overboard on them.

This time the "fillers" are written by Nasu himself though, which is completely different to DEEN's own non-canon fillers.


Btw looking at the Prisma Illya thread (although I didn't watch it yet, maybe I'll do it if i find the time), DEEN really created some Shirou haters... but hey, I am not one to talk about such things, I dropped DEEN's anime after 3/4 episodes after all.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Didn't Nasu make the Archer fight with Berserker canon? So it wasn't all non canon.

[GreyZone]

Didn't Nasu make the Archer fight with Berserker canon? So it wasn't all non canon.

I heard that was "retroactive", i.e. Nasu thought "well yes that fight looks OK and does not contradict the caonon, so it's fine", but I'd rather see someone post the soure of this statement, because I don't know where I read it anymore.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

I heard that was "retroactive", i.e. Nasu thought "well yes that fight looks OK and does not contradict the caonon, so it's fine", but I'd rather see someone post the soure of this statement, because I don't know where I read it anymore.

Hence the word make. I know it wasn't originally.

[GDB]

Only thing I recall him canonizing about it was Trace: Overedge for Kanshou and Bakuya.

[Cherry_Lover]

They won't go too far into the issue because it would result in domino effect of having to go further and further into the issue the more they add. Not only do they have HF for Sakura's story, but there is a limit of how many episodes the Anime can have.

They're not going to go into it in detail, no, but that doesn't mean they can't resolve it.

Any additions will be very minor at best. And by very minor I mean content that will only last few seconds. In other words, barely worth looking forward to.

Honestly, I find that extremely unlikely. The anime is going to need filler beyond the normal story, because the original VN story doesn't quite extend to a 24 episode anime, and people will want to see some added scenes.

Also, Nasu seems to be quite wary of changes to the story.

Yeah, but making things that were already implied more explicit isn't changing the story.

If they are going to do that they should probably only make it look like he was defeated. Afterward when the viewers see the HF movie(s) they will discover Sakura still had one of Zouken's worms inside of her heart and Zouken wasn't actually defeated at the end of UBW. If Zouken would get totally defeated in UBW he would look less threatening in the HF movie(s). By doing it this way the viewer will think all the plot threads of Fate/Zero have been wrapped up, without it actually being the case.

I disagree entirely. If they're going to try to wrap up the Zouken stuff, they should do it properly, not just give some false resolution to appease Zero fans temporarily. Plus, if Zouken's only remaining worms are the ones inside Sakura's heart, then Sakura is dead, because Zouken has no choice but to take over her body at that point. That is definitely not a good way of resolving the situation.

[Shinji103]

Late response is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay late, but count me in on the F/SN fans psyched up for a UBW series. I thought the movie was good, but my only gripe was that they couldn't really get the ShirouxRin done as well as ShirouxSaber in the first series. (though forgiveable since it was a movie and not a whole series) It's nice to see we'll finally get that. (in case you couldn't tell, Rin is my favorite of the three heroines :D) It'll just suck having to wait several months between cours, but at least that means we'll be getting the same awesome animation we got with Fate/Zero. Or so I think, but then it comes back to me that all the definitive ShirouxRin won't be until the second cour........... T.T

Awesome for the Heaven's Feel movie(s) too. Though UBW is my passion, it'll be nice to have animated HF as well.

[ukulelembo]

Some info:
http://i.imgur.com/TiBQfY0.jpg
- original scenes that complement the content of the original story are fully written by Nasu.
- there will be scenes that that switch on the point of view other than Shiro's.
- there will be also the new scene of conversation between Kirei and Gilgamesh.
- a new scene for those who know "Fate/Zero" which subtly ties both work together.
- Takeuchi wanted them to adapt all routes, now is pissed that Saber's route didn't get anime. :D

[Amarantine]

- there will be also the new scene of conversation between Kirei and Gilgamesh.

I'm sure some will find this to be blasphemous pandering to the viewers coming from Zero, but I don't care, Kirei and Gil's relationship was criminally underexposed in F/SN, and I'm glad we'll get new glorious interactions between them. Long live Team Yuetsu.

[GDB]

It, along with Saber never mentioning or thinking about Irisviel (for obvious reasons, of course) are the two main things that made FSN feel lacking after Fate/Zero was a thing.

Also, not surprised at all that Takeuchi was upset that the Fate route wasn't being animated. He's the #1 Saber fanboy, after all. He pimps her out more than TypeMoon themselves.

[kakakka]

I'm sure some will find this to be blasphemous pandering to the viewers coming from Zero

Obviously.

Not that I was looking forward to it (nor do I hate it) but I feel it does fit with trying to fit in UBW with FZ.

[Lorhand]

It, along with Saber never mentioning or thinking about Irisviel (for obvious reasons, of course) are the two main things that made FSN feel lacking after Fate/Zero was a thing.

There is a small scene in Fate, when Ilya, Saber and Shirou have lunch, where it seems like Saber is thinking about Iri when she looks at Ilya's face. But yes, other than that, Saber never makes any vague remarks about Iri for, as you've said, obvious reasons.

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2082/10-F12-06-12.jpg

That must have been from the bottom of her heart.
Saber's voice is the same as always. It doesn't sound like she's thinking about Ilya.

[LoveYouSaber]

Some info:
http://i.imgur.com/TiBQfY0.jpg
- original scenes that complement the content of the original story are fully written by Nasu.
- there will be scenes that that switch on the point of view other than Shiro's.
- there will be also the new scene of conversation between Kirei and Gilgamesh.
- a new scene for those who know "Fate/Zero" which subtly ties both work together.
- Takeuchi wanted them to adapt all routes, now is pissed that Saber's route didn't get anime. :D

LOL, as GDB also noted, Takeuchi is really such a Saber-con. Though I obviously also hope he gets his wish somehow later on :p Maybe his disappointment will drive him into coming up with even more versions of Saber...

But good thing that we know more about the scenes that are going to be added. If that is the complete list of scenes that are original and to be added by Nasu (the long debated original/new content), then actually this doesn't amount to much.

[ukulelembo]

Maybe his disappointment will drive him into coming up with even more versions of Saber...
She will have a big role in the upcoming Online Game Reboot (http://www.fate-go.jp/).
http://i.imgur.com/kSMcGPJl.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/kSMcGPJ.jpg)

If that is the complete list of scenes that are original and to be added by Nasu (the long debated original/new content), then actually this doesn't amount to much.
No it isn't. It's just a few examples mentioned in interview. There will be much more.

[Amarantine]

It, along with Saber never mentioning or thinking about Irisviel (for obvious reasons, of course) are the two main things that made FSN feel lacking after Fate/Zero was a thing.

It felt particularly lacking in UBW, what with Kirei dying so close to Gil and we don't even see any reaction from the latter. If they're going to add more stuff on them, I'd like to see Gil at least comment on it or something. I mean, Gil basically molded Kirei into what he became and Kirei was the one human he found interesting enough to follow and live with for 10 years. It certainly wouldn't hurt to at least imply Gil was somewhat moved by his death.

The Saber and Iri deal also feels like it could use a mention, yeah, but at the same time I find it more excusable since Saber is just the kind of person not to mention something, no matter how obvious or relevant it may seem to everyone else, if no one asks her about it.

[LoveYouSaber]

It certainly wouldn't hurt to at least imply Gil was somewhat moved by his death.

Yeah, probably saying something along the lines of "Killed by Lancer, of all people? You amuse me even in death, Kirei." ;)

[XFire]

Yeah, probably saying something along the lines of "Killed by Lancer, of all people? You amuse me even in death, Kirei." ;)

Says the guy who's killed by a human...........

[scyllus]

Is this only about tv series or include movie as well? Salvaging Kotomine in UBW is like...impossible without killing him offscreen xD For HF it would make a lot of sense, as he develops. But it seems they are doing things faithfully so I'll leave my rambling to myself. Multi-pov...in vn we had archer,saber,rin,shirou and... caster? Ahhh lancer narrates his fight with archer I belive.And there is shinji in like...3 scenes? Berserker and Illya one scenes too.Well it sounds like a beatiful mess alright:D Hype!
EDIT: There is stamp that's its tv series only in the magazine. Can't wait for zero watchers bitter tears as their characters get trolled.
EDIT 2: I'm actually fearful that Takeuchi will take revenge by making all tsuki remake charas even more saber clones with variety in breast size and hair colour. Oh the horror. Not that it gets released ever xD

[Lorhand]

Takeuchi's favorite Tsukihime character is Hisui. No need to fear anything.

As for Kirei and Gil in UBW... Gil recognizes Kirei's death, but it seems like he doesn't give a shit about it. An added reaction in the anime wouldn't be such a bad addition I guess.

[mirakura]

some info:
http://i.imgur.com/tibqfy0.jpg
- original scenes that complement the content of the original story are fully written by nasu.
- there will be scenes that that switch on the point of view other than shiro's.
- there will be also the new scene of conversation between kirei and gilgamesh.
- a new scene for those who know "fate/zero" which subtly ties both work together.
- takeuchi wanted them to adapt all routes, now is pissed that saber's route didn't get anime. :d

YES, GO TA-KE-U-CHI, YESH come on fight for us!

[ukulelembo]

Is this only about tv series or include movie as well?
Current interview was about UBW TV series. Whether there will be some added scenes also in HF movie is hard to say. Basically it's possible, but it will depend on how big length movie project will have.

Multi-pov...in vn we had archer,saber,rin,shirou and... caster? Ahhh lancer narrates his fight with archer I belive.And there is shinji in like...3 scenes? Berserker and Illya one scenes too.Well it sounds like a beatiful mess alright:D Hype!
Basically they can add some scenes with Caster's original master of some pov for Matous's family and Illya.

[scyllus]

Current interview was about UBW TV series. Whether there will be some added scenes also in HF movie is hard to say. Basically it's possible, but it will depend on how big length movie project will have.


Basically they can add some scenes with Caster's original master of some pov for Matous's family and Illya.

They could but frankly Nasu is going EAWare in his desire to protect his artistic vision.Not that I blame him. At least that's what I get from the interviews. And as I stated somwhere far back,If you include zero, you have a mess ready. Transferring characters don't really match (Gen tried but his Kirei is 99% HF one, and Gil is combo of FatexUBW) ,plots are left hanging etc. I'm hyped for this but bitter for not using the tv format to get rid of the things that worked in vn but not neccesarly on screen. But gotta have faith:D GilxBerserker is my favourite fight overall and I cannot wait.

[Lorhand]

FZ-Gil is a mix of Fate, UBW and HF. His few conversations in HF with Kirei are very similar to the ones in FZ, for instance. As for Kirei, what you see of him in all three routes is the end result of FZ. That was the point of his story in FZ. I don't see the mess regarding these two characters.

[Cherry_Lover]

If that is the complete list of scenes that are original and to be added by Nasu (the long debated original/new content), then actually this doesn't amount to much.

I'm pretty sure it's not. Plus, "scenes that switch the POV to someone other than Shirou" could cover just about anything. In particular, you'd expect anything that Nasu considers canon but wasn't explicitly shown in the VN to fit that, since anything Shirou sees in the VN we'd expect to have seen as well.

Current interview was about UBW TV series. Whether there will be some added scenes also in HF movie is hard to say. Basically it's possible, but it will depend on how big length movie project will have.

I'd be surprised if they add too much to the movie, it's unlikely to be long enough.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

I don't even understand why they stated the change of view. I mean that happened in the VN they're called interludes this is basic common sense.

If they're adding more content the logical conclusion would be some that they're not from the protagonists point of view.

edit

[mirakura]

FZ-Gil is a mix of Fate, UBW and HF. His few conversations in HF with Kirei are very similar to the ones in FZ, for instance. As for Kirei, what you see of him in all three routes is the end result of FZ. That was the point of his story in FZ. I don't see the mess regarding these two characters.

I thought HF Gil died before getting any characterization?

I don't even understand why they stated the change of view. I mean that happened in the VN they're called interludes this is basic common sense.

If they're adding more content the logical conclusion would be some that from the protagonists point of view.

But that will change the plot, e.g, you wouldn't have Shirou see Gil & Kotomine have a convo would he? And that's original content. :3

[Lorhand]

I thought HF Gil died before getting any characterization?

I know you didn't care much about HF and only rushed through it, so you don't remember that many details, but there were one or two interesting scenes with Gil (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuFQTtOGdtU).

[Tenchi Hou Take]

I thought HF Gil died before getting any characterization?



But that will change the plot, e.g, you wouldn't have Shirou see Gil & Kotomine have a convo would he? And that's original content. :3

You get changes points of view from Archer also and VN cuts into third person during major fights. Plus we're talking about things Shirou never even knows about been shown from a different perspective in the VN e.g Shinji's talk with Gilgamesh. Which are interludes

It's not new nor does it explain anything about this specific adaptation. What they've said about new scenes already covers it.

It's like saying this adaptation will contain Rin's relation with Shirou... well no shit.

[ukulelembo]

In particular, you'd expect anything that Nasu considers canon but wasn't explicitly shown in the VN to fit that, since anything Shirou sees in the VN we'd expect to have seen as well.
Basically, we can expect "Hobbit-like" expansions which probably happen during UBW route, but in the game are not directly shown. For example a conversation between Gilgamesh and Sakura during Prologue.
http://i.imgur.com/7u8NQqql.jpg


I'd be surprised if they add too much to the movie, it's unlikely to be long enough.
Me too, but that chance is still not completely zero. We currently don't even know from how many movies HF project will be composed.

[scyllus]

FZ-Gil is a mix of Fate, UBW and HF. His few conversations in HF with Kirei are very similar to the ones in FZ, for instance. As for Kirei, what you see of him in all three routes is the end result of FZ. That was the point of his story in FZ. I don't see the mess regarding these two characters.

Guess my hatred of UBW Kirei get's better of me. The contrast between UBW and HF Kotomine is just so very jarring. I know he played with Kariya's fate for fun. But it's not the same as actually going out of your way to appear before Rin just to torment her, letting Gil kill Illya without a reason really, and playing along with Rin's the perfect grail while all his HF self is evidently shown as Interested in destroing Shirou's ideal, spotting the similiarties, and not just appearing to reveal i killed your father than die. But I repated that many times and it seems like an unpopular position. And he still struggles against morale vs sadism, and is not a pure evil villian of UBW and Fate.
Yes, he embraces his nature, but the various things he does in HF ( Illya's rescue mission, saving Shirou and Rin when he finds them on church doors), shows that pure evil is not an answer to his character. And that's his role in ubw.
On Gil- IMO In UBW he's just a pure sadist concerned only with humanity eradication, and have almost no development. He was a little deeper in zero. I would say that Gil's existence is just a foil to not make Saber utterly broken. But that's for the game topic so'll stop there.

The whole point is that gen took 3 routes to craft zero and if you see only one part of the puzzle, the meaning get's lost.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Guess my hatred of UBW Kirei get's better of me. The contrast between UBW and HF Kotomine is just so very jarring. I know he played with Kariya's fate for fun. But it's not the same as actually going out of your way to appear before Rin just to torment her, letting Gil kill Illya without a reason really, and playing along with Rin's the perfect grail while all his HF self is evidently shown as Interested in destroing Shirou's ideal, spotting the similiarties, and not just appearing to reveal i killed your father than die. But I repated that many times and it seems like an unpopular position. And he still struggles against morale vs sadism, and is not a pure evil villian of UBW and Fate.
On Gil- IMO In UBW he's just a pure sadist concerned only with humanity eradication, and have almost no development. He was a little deeper in zero. I would say that Gil's existence is just a foil to not make Saber utterly broken. But that's for the game topic so'll stop there.

The whole point is that gen took 3 routes to craft zero and if you see only one part of the puzzle, the meaning get's lost.

Where are you getting Kieri wanted to destroy Shirou's ideal? Kirei never really cared about Shirou's ideal which is what you see in Fate, UBW and Mind of steel HF. Shirou and Kiritusugu are completely different people Kirei hated the fact that Kiritusugu a fairly normal person was honestly trying to achieve the ideal and believed he could.

Shirou is the opposite and Kirei accepted and noticed that. Shirou like Kirei derives his happiness almost enterly from helping someone else, the opposite of Kirei (which was hurting others) but equally flawed. Shirou also never actually believed he could achieve his ideal, that was not the point (as UBW makes abundantly clear) he just wanted to help people. That's why Kieri is never shown showing any actual hatred towards Shrou because he does not hate Shirou nor what he stands for. He understands Shirou better than anyone because they are two halves of the same coin. That's why he comments on the pointlessness of the fight they're only fighting because their goals contrast, that's it they have no other real issues.

He never understood Kiritsugu despite hoping Kiritusugu would understand him which is the cause of his hatred.

[ukulelembo]

letting Gil kill Illya without a reason
They needed her heart.

[scyllus]

Where are you getting Kieri wanted to destroy Shirou's ideal? Kirei never really cared about Shirou's ideal which is what you see in Fate, UBW and Mind of steel HF. Shirou and Kiritusugu are completely different people Kieri hated the fact that Kiritusugu a fairly normal person was honestly trying to achieve the ideal and believed he could.

Shirou is the opposite and Kirei accepted and noticed that. Shirou like Kirei derives his happiness almost enterly from helping someone else, the opposite of Kirei (which was hurting others) but equally flawed. Shirou also never actually believed he could achieve his ideal, that was not the point (as UBW makes abundantly clear) he just wanted to help people. That's why Kieri is never shown showing any actual hatred towards Shrou because he does not hate Shirou nor what he stands for. He understands Shirou better than anyone because they are two halves of the same coin.

He never understood Kiritsugu despite hoping Kiritusugu would understand him which is the cause of his hatred.

Okay before it turns into total shitstorm I'll just make myself clear.
UBW Kirei is activelly plotting to make tohsaka a grail, which condradicts his focus on Shirou, Kiritsugu and nature of evil. And the latter (minus Shirou obviously) were the focus of his chara development in zero, and UBW lacks what. IMO he wants Shirou to see that Kiritsugu wasn't the person he imagined and when given a chance he shatters Shirou's delusion in HF. That's what I meant by destroying his ideal. And I agree that they are they are similliar but opposite, yet all this is not present in UBW. And that do not match with zero at all . That's i would rather prefer to not touch on Zero at all, in vn this was acceptable, without it's IMO bad writing.

They needed her heart.

Really I know. But why? To make Rin a damsel in real distress? To give Kirei a chance to reveal I killed your father and dissapear ? To empty the einsbern mansion?

Cutting Illya's limbs or just keeping her comatose is enough for a grail. And nor Hf, nor Fate Kirei had any trouble accepting that. If that's all Gil idea fine, but they did insert Kotomine out of whack.

[Key Board]

well if you put it that way it does seem weird

UBW is the route where Shirou embraces his ideals.. even if they are "fake" and borrowed
HF is the route where Shirou let's go of it and decide it's not worth it

You'd think Kirei would be more excited about trolling Shirou in UBW

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Okay before it turns into total shitstorm I'll just make myself clear.
UBW Kirei is activelly plotting to make tohsaka a grail, which condradicts his focus on Shirou, Kiritsugu and nature of evil. And the latter (minus Shirou obviosly) were the focus of his chara development in zero, and UBW lacks what. IMO he wants Shirou to see that Kiritsugu wasn't the person he imagined and when given a chance he shatters Shirou's delusion in HF. That's what I meant by destroying his ideal. And I agree that they are they are similliar but opposite, yet all this is not present in UBW. And that do not match with zero at all . That's i would rather prefer to not touch on Zero at all, in vn this was acceptable, without it it's IMO bad writing.

Your missing the point, he doesn't care specifically about Shirou not in the way your thinking anyway. This is not Fate Zero where he specifically aims for for Kiritusugu in order to find him. Kirei doesn't care he has a single goal to awaken Angra and a secondary goal of harming humans. He doesn't derive anything from Shirou because there's not all that much he needs to learn from Shirou because he understands Shirou likely better than Shirou understands himself most of the time. Notice how he always wants to give Shirou the grail to make a wish it works according to his plan. The reason why he doesn't go after shirou is because they're the exact same Shirou is doing what Kirei currently is doing especially in UBW. He's following his nature of helping people, much like Kieri harms people. There's no need for Kirei to do anything as at that point they're exactly the same.

Why he goes after Rin is because he likes torturing people and will help him reach his goal which is entirely in character. The only thing that's odd is how quickly he dies. He's never as obseesed about Shirou as your implying. Shirou even dies from his servant initially, that's how little he cares.

[Rising Dragon]

Given that Ilya was a "fake" human of sorts, being a homunculus and such, and his own distaste with modern humanity and such, Gilgamesh probably thought he was doing Ilya a favor by killing her.

Plus, by killing Ilya, they remove a potential problem to their plans. After all, Gilgamesh knows that a Servant-less Master can still acquire another Servant.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Given that Ilya was a "fake" human of sorts, being a homunculus and such, and his own distaste with modern humanity and such, Gilgamesh probably thought he was doing Ilya a favor by killing her.

Plus, by killing Ilya, they remove a potential problem to their plans. After all, Gilgamesh knows that a Servant-less Master can still acquire another Servant.

Illya was dead either way from their goals why he takes her heart her is explicitly stated in the novel (why people keep ignoring it I have no idea). He wants a imperfect grail container as he has no needs for a wish just that Avenger is born. That's why he takes Ilya's heart and put it in Shinji (an imperfect container).

That's it, that's all there is to it.

[ukulelembo]

Really I know. But why?
Illya's heart is core for Grail and they want use own vessel.

[mirakura]

Given that Ilya was a "fake" human of sorts, being a homunculus and such, and his own distaste with modern humanity and such, Gilgamesh probably thought he was doing Ilya a favor by killing her.

Plus, by killing Ilya, they remove a potential problem to their plans. After all, Gilgamesh knows that a Servant-less Master can still acquire another Servant.

Halff human, she's Kerry's biological daughter :3

[scyllus]

Your missing the point, he doesn't care specifically about Shirou not in the way your thinking anyway. This is not Fate Zero where he specifically aims for for Kiritusugu in order to find him. Kirei doesn't care he has a single goal to awaken Angra and a secondary goal of harming humans. He doesn't derive anything from Shirou because there's not all that much he needs to learn from Shirou because he understands Shirou likely better than Shirou understands himself most of the time. Notice how he always wants to give Shirou the grail to make a wish it works according to his plan. The reason why he doesn't go after shirou is because they're the exact same Shirou is doing what Kirei currently is doing especially in UBW. He's following his nature of helping people, much like Kieri harms people. There's no need for Kirei to do anything as at that point they're exactly the same.

Why he goes after Rin is because he likes torturing people and will help him reach his goal which is entirely in character. The only thing that's odd is how quickly he dies. He's never as obseesed about Shirou as your implying. Shirou even dies from his servant initially, that's how little he cares.

Okay I can accept your points. For me Shirou is just as important to Kirei as the other way round, in terms of themes and development, but You're right that it doesn't work that way in terms of plot all the time. On Rin I won't accept it, it's still feels to me as a cheap plot device to make Rin more "heroine" like, by putting her in serious danger. But that's the UBW fault. Kotomine has 3 scenes. He feels like a plot device in that route. Not a character really. If Nasu and ufo expand that just a bit i'll be perfectly content. Also he likes to watch people suffer (in zero) and not actievly doing things like putting Illya heart into Rin. That's the way he works in Fate and HF, and his active participation like what was jarring to me. But I'll stop arguing it you were right were it counted.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Okay I can accept your points. For me Shirou is just as important to Kirei as the other way round, in terms of themes and development, but You're right that it doesn't work that way in terms of plot all the time. On Rin I won't accept it, it's still feels to me as a cheap plot device to make Rin more "heroine" like, by putting her in serious danger. But that's the UBW fault. Kotomine has 3 scenes. He feels like a plot device in that route. Not a character really. If Nasu and ufo expand that just a bit i'll be perfectly content. Also he likes to watch people suffer (in zero) and not actievly doing things like putting Illya heart into Rin. That's the way he works in Fate and HF, and his active participation like what was jarring to me. But I'll stop arguing it you were right were it counted.

Giving Kotomine more depth is fine and I think he deserves it. That's why I thought of them introducing Bazett into this, to at least show the meaning of Lancer killing him, while also giving Lancer more character development since he's like the 3rd or 4th (depending n how important you consider Saber) character to this route.

[mirakura]

Giving Kotomine more depth is fine and I think he deserves it. That's why I thought of them introducing Bazett into this, to at least show the meaning of Lancer killing him, while also giving Lancer more character development since he's like the 3rd or 4th (depending n how important you consider Saber) character to this route.

I think the character rating for UBW should be:

#1 Shirou/Archer
#2 Rin
#3 Saber
#4 Caster
#5 Lancer...

or

#1 Shirou/Archer
#2 Rin
#3 Caster
#4 Saber
#5 Lancer

:3 Correct me if i'm wrong.

P.S

That rating is for the VN not the new anime. The new anime's rating will probably have Rin as #1...

[Tenchi Hou Take]

I think the character rating for UBW should be:

#1 Shirou/Archer
#2 Rin
#3 Saber
#4 Caster
#5 Lancer...

or

#1 Shirou/Archer
#2 Rin
#3 Caster
#4 Saber
#5 Lancer

:3 Correct me if i'm wrong.

P.S

That rating is for the VN not the new anime. The new anime's rating will probably have Rin as #1...

Casters an arc villain... I meant main characters here.

[mirakura]

Casters an arc villain... I meant main characters here.

Bleh, ok....

[scyllus]

Giving Kotomine more depth is fine and I think he deserves it. That's why I thought of them introducing Bazett into this, to at least show the meaning of Lancer killing him, while also giving Lancer more character development since he's like the 3rd or 4th (depending n how important you consider Saber) character to this route.

I really like where are you going with this. Still not sure if it would be better for the movie or tv series. Establish Kirei as a pullstringer of the 5th holy grail war, maybe introducing Gil, show Lancer as a duty bound knight who follows orders because of his geasi, (god diarmund was such a ripoff in some things) (Saber repels a command spell for 3 days, and lancer follows Kirei without a question? Magres or not they're both Servants cmn Nasu)maybe include something about killing woman "hitting him hard" from hf ( an recolecttion to bazzet?) while showing some of his madskillz. Nice and pleasing to zero fans despising his lack of screentime in UBW. Also a much better introduction to Cu, and his appearance in the middle of me crying over berserker and illya gives me nightmares to this day:P God fix this mood shift Ufo I BEG YOU.

[Nayrael]

Really I know. But why? To make Rin a damsel in real distress? To give Kirei a chance to reveal I killed your father and dissapear ? To empty the einsbern mansion?

Cutting Illya's limbs or just keeping her comatose is enough for a grail. And nor Hf, nor Fate Kirei had any trouble accepting that. If that's all Gil idea fine, but they did insert Kotomine out of whack.

I don't remember Kirei ever saying "Archer, pull her heart out!". I always thought it was Gil's own decision and Kirei just rolled with it by choosing the nearest enemy Magi, Rin, as the vessel.

As for tormenting... Kirei torments everyone. He is a man who believes that desperation, especially just before they die, reveals the best in humans. He is a kind of person that turns into a full sadist in front of anyone who is about to die or goes through a traumatic experience atm. It is just his way of loving humans.

[Cherry_Lover]

Basically, we can expect "Hobbit-like" expansions which probably happen during UBW route, but in the game are not directly shown. For example a conversation between Gilgamesh and Sakura during Prologue.
http://i.imgur.com/7u8NQqql.jpg

Honestly, I'd expect that to be in HF rather than the UBW anime, because it's relevant there. The only reason I'd expect to see it in UBW is if they use it as foreshadowing for Gil killing Zouken later on.

Guess my hatred of UBW Kirei get's better of me. The contrast between UBW and HF Kotomine is just so very jarring. I know he played with Kariya's fate for fun. But it's not the same as actually going out of your way to appear before Rin just to torment her, letting Gil kill Illya without a reason really, and playing along with Rin's the perfect grail

Kotomine doesn't control Gil. At most he can advise Gil. And, intentionally trolling Rin is totally something you'd expect from Kotomine, especially in a situation where he doesn't expect it to backfire. Hell, in Zero he even gave Rin the knife he used to kill Tokiomi for the purpose of trolling.

while all his HF self is evidently shown as Interested in destroing Shirou's ideal, spotting the similiarties, and not just appearing to reveal i killed your father than die. But I repated that many times and it seems like an unpopular position. And he still struggles against morale vs sadism, and is not a pure evil villian of UBW and Fate.

Kotomine is not interested in destroying Shirou's ideal. He's interested in Shirou because of that ideal, but he doesn't desire to destroy it. His goal in HF is to see AM born, because he's interested in the concept of a being that is inherently evil, even without any consciousness.

Yes, he embraces his nature, but the various things he does in HF ( Illya's rescue mission, saving Shirou and Rin when he finds them on church doors), shows that pure evil is not an answer to his character. And that's his role in ubw.
On Gil- IMO In UBW he's just a pure sadist concerned only with humanity eradication, and have almost no development. He was a little deeper in zero. I would say that Gil's existence is just a foil to not make Saber utterly broken. But that's for the game topic so'll stop there.

No, Kotomine isn't just "evil for the hell of it", but his motive in HF is very particular, and only comes about because of that route. He has something similar with Shirou in Fate, but in UBW no such opportunity arises.

Okay before it turns into total shitstorm I'll just make myself clear.
UBW Kirei is activelly plotting to make tohsaka a grail, which condradicts his focus on Shirou, Kiritsugu and nature of evil. And the latter (minus Shirou obviously) were the focus of his chara development in zero, and UBW lacks what. IMO he wants Shirou to see that Kiritsugu wasn't the person he imagined and when given a chance he shatters Shirou's delusion in HF. That's what I meant by destroying his ideal. And I agree that they are they are similliar but opposite, yet all this is not present in UBW. And that do not match with zero at all . That's i would rather prefer to not touch on Zero at all, in vn this was acceptable, without it's IMO bad writing.

Kirei doesn't have much of a focus on Shirou, as such. Shirou is of interest to him, yes, but it's not the sole thing he cares about. And, ultimately, summoning the Grail is part of his interest in the "nature of evil".

Really I know. But why? To make Rin a damsel in real distress? To give Kirei a chance to reveal I killed your father and dissapear ? To empty the einsbern mansion?

To allow the Grail to be summoned/

Cutting Illya's limbs or just keeping her comatose is enough for a grail. And nor Hf, nor Fate Kirei had any trouble accepting that. If that's all Gil idea fine, but they did insert Kotomine out of whack.

Sure, but why should Kotomine care about killing her?

Okay I can accept your points. For me Shirou is just as important to Kirei as the other way round, in terms of themes and development, but You're right that it doesn't work that way in terms of plot all the time. On Rin I won't accept it, it's still feels to me as a cheap plot device to make Rin more "heroine" like, by putting her in serious danger. But that's the UBW fault. Kotomine has 3 scenes. He feels like a plot device in that route. Not a character really. If Nasu and ufo expand that just a bit i'll be perfectly content. Also he likes to watch people suffer (in zero) and not actievly doing things like putting Illya heart into Rin. That's the way he works in Fate and HF, and his active participation like what was jarring to me. But I'll stop arguing it you were right were it counted.

Kotomine wasn't the one who kidnapped Rin, remember, that was Archer. I think Kotomine was just taking advantage of the situation to get a Grail vessel, as well as doing some trolling of Lancer into the bargain.

[ukulelembo]

Honestly, I'd expect that to be in HF rather than the UBW anime, because it's relevant there. The only reason I'd expect to see it in UBW is if they use it as foreshadowing for Gil killing Zouken later on.
All current shots are from UBW anime. HF project is still in pre-production. Footage in HF trailer was just for presentation. More shots you can see here:
http://i.imgur.com/1lrYgFhl.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/1lrYgFh.jpg)

[mirakura]

All current shots are from UBW anime. HF project is still in pre-production. Footage in HF trailer was just for presentation. More shots you can see here:
http://i.imgur.com/1lrYgFhl.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/1lrYgFh.jpg)

I should have guessed it was UBW with that Taiga scene....Once again, Turia is the front cover, no surprise there...

[cyberdemon]

Honestly, I'd expect that to be in HF rather than the UBW anime, because it's relevant there. The only reason I'd expect to see it in UBW is if they use it as foreshadowing for Gil killing Zouken later on.

It happens in all 3 routes. Rin happens to witness it but not know what it going on in the prologue. It's only verified what happened in HF.

[AP24]

I wonder if the "H scene" in UBW will be adapted as a "non-H scene" like in the movie version.

[Kanon]

I wonder what the scene that's supposed to tie Fate/Zero and F/SN together is supposed to be. It could be so many things. Right now, I'm leaning toward it being related to Kiritsugu and his ideals.

[scyllus]

Delphins or not the raping of Tohaska Rin is one of the UBW biggest nightmares. I'm all fine with sex but at least make it....natural. Well maybe some implication since it's tv format. But the worst thing to do is to turn both HF and UBW realta nua. That'll hurt.

I wonder what the scene that's supposed to tie Fate/Zero and F/SN together is supposed to be. It could be so many things. Right now, I'm leaning toward it being related to Kiritsugu and his ideals.

Bazzete inclusion could work as well. As I posted above a good chance to reintroduce Kirei, his problems touched in zero and all. But it'll probably be the scene of Shirou promise to Kiritsugu, with some internal monolouge from Kerry.

[GDB]

Delphins or not the raping of Tohaska Rin is one of the UBW biggest nightmares.

...What? Rin was never raped outside of a Bad End in Heaven's Feel.

[scyllus]

...What? Rin was never raped outside of a Bad End in Heaven's Feel.

I was actually talking about the sensual h-scene Rin and Shirou share. Rape was a joke, but it hurt my...everything just reading it.

[Nayrael]

The fact that Takeuchi is angry may press them to remake Fate later, I also read on their site ( where they have announced the news ) that they received many complains from majority of fans. That may push them to do 'Fate' route as well in 2 or 3 years .

(this is from the Official Info tread, but since discussions there are forbidden...)
I wouldn't take him being pissed too literally. Anyway, everyone knows how fanatical fans can get so I doubt that this was much of a surprise for them.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Well they can stay pissed doubt care we get two full seasons of the sheer awesomeness that is UBW adaptaed by UFOtable, as far as adaptations for my favourite route, as long as they do it justice there's nothing more I could want.

If it comes at expense of not seeing fate adapted right now again (suffering through it in the VN to reach UBW was bad enough), I have no regrets. Fate will almost certainly get adapted just not right now.

[GreyZone]

Well they can stay pissed doubt care we get two full seasons of the sheer awesomeness that is UBW adaptaed by UFOtable, as far as adaptations for my favourite route, as long as they do it justice there's nothing more I could want.

If it comes at expense of not seeing fate adapted right now again (suffering through it in the VN to reach UBW was bad enough), I have no regrets. Fate will almost certainly get adapted just not right now.

I see what you did there.

[ukulelembo]

I personally highly doubt that there will be any more FSN anime after this. Dissatisfaction of Saber fans is perhaps understandable, but as the reason for creating an identical series once again is completely ridiculous. Old anime from DEEN is maybe poor, but still is there. And Ufotable visibly put all their effort into current anime and HF project. Hard to believe that after this they will want to turn back to Fate route and adapt it just for rest of the die-hard Saber fans that don't satisfy current anime. More likely they move forward and adapt some other Fate title like Hollow Ataraxia (hottest candidate) or Extra and Apocrypha, eventually quite different TM title like for example constantly delayed Girls' Work (http://www.girlswork-animation.com/).

[Nayrael]

I for one would like to see Apocrypha adapted next, more so than Hollow/Ataraxia or Extra.

[ukulelembo]

I for one would like to see Apocrypha adapted next, more so than Hollow/Ataraxia or Extra.
Me too, but first, the last book must be published. They definitely won't adapt unfinished work.

[cyberdemon]

I personally highly doubt that there will be any more FSN anime after this. Dissatisfaction of Saber fans is perhaps understandable, but as the reason for creating an identical series once again is completely ridiculous. Old anime from DEEN is maybe poor, but still is there. And Ufotable visibly put all their effort into current anime and HF project. Hard to believe that after this they will want to turn back to Fate route and adapt it just for rest of the die-hard Saber fans that don't satisfy current anime. More likely they move forward and adapt some other Fate title like Hollow Ataraxia (hottest candidate) or Extra and Apocrypha, eventually quite different TM title like for example constantly delayed Girls' Work (http://www.girlswork-animation.com/).

also depending how they handle the HF movie, since there isn't actual confirmation on multiple movies yet as far as I am aware just speculation based on wording, I could see them doing a full series on HF before another full series on Fate. At best I can see a Fate movie to try and round things out but doing another full series for Fate seems pointless. Fate is the simplest of the 3 routes and likely the easiest to adapt into a movie.

[Nayrael]

also depending how they handle the HF movie, since there isn't actual confirmation on multiple movies yet as far as I am aware just speculation based on wording, I could see them doing a full series on HF before another full series on Fate. At best I can see a Fate movie to try and round things out but doing another full series for Fate seems pointless. Fate is the simplest of the 3 routes and likely the easiest to adapt into a movie.

Yep, especially since a large portion of it is general exposition. Since such exposition will not be as necessary (due to it being handled by FZ, UBW and HF... not to mention the original Deen's Anime for those who have watched that) the story gets shorter and you get something that can easily be integrated into a movie or two.

[ukulelembo]

also depending how they handle the HF movie, since there isn't actual confirmation on multiple movies yet as far as I am aware just speculation based on wording...
HF project is currently visibly in pre-production. So the exact length or number of movie(s) probably still isn't decided. But it's apparent that Ufotable also want put all effort into that. So there's no need to worry that something will be rushed or messed. In current interview from magazine they even explained that they chose movie format for HF, because they don't need to hold back and can show full charm of HF route, which they believe would be destroyed in TV format (you can guess what it means ;) ).

[cyberdemon]

Yep, especially since a large portion of it is general exposition. Since such exposition will not be as necessary (due to it being handled by FZ, UBW and HF... not to mention the original Deen's Anime for those who have watched that) the story gets shorter and you get something that can easily be integrated into a movie or two.

Yeah plus if HF ever gets a full series and Fate gets a movie then it would even things out. a full series for each route and a movie for each route.

HF project is currently visibly in pre-production. So the exact length or number of movie(s) probably still isn't decided. But it's apparent that Ufotable also want put all effort into that. So there's no need to worry that something will be rushed or messed. In current interview from magazine they even explained that they chose movie format for HF, because they don't need to hold back and can show full charm of HF route, which they believe would be destroyed in TV format (you can guess what it means ;) ).

I know what you mean lol. The lack of confirmed info on the length though still leave anything up in the air. They could just make a single movie because they are already planning in the future to make a full length series. Or they can do multiple movies to get it done now. either way if they do animate Fate I get the feeling it will be a movie at best.

[mirakura]

Yeah plus if HF ever gets a full series and Fate gets a movie then it would even things out. a full series for each route and a movie for each route.


UBW and Fate will be equal but HF gets 2 adaptations from UFO so...not really even there.

Yep, especially since a large portion of it is general exposition. Since such exposition will not be as necessary (due to it being handled by FZ, UBW and HF... not to mention the original Deen's Anime for those who have watched that) the story gets shorter and you get something that can easily be integrated into a movie or two.

also depending how they handle the HF movie, since there isn't actual confirmation on multiple movies yet as far as I am aware just speculation based on wording, I could see them doing a full series on HF before another full series on Fate. At best I can see a Fate movie to try and round things out but doing another full series for Fate seems pointless. Fate is the simplest of the 3 routes and likely the easiest to adapt into a movie.

I for one would like to see Apocrypha adapted next, more so than Hollow/Ataraxia or Extra.

I personally highly doubt that there will be any more FSN anime after this. Dissatisfaction of Saber fans is perhaps understandable, but as the reason for creating an identical series once again is completely ridiculous. Old anime from DEEN is maybe poor, but still is there. And Ufotable visibly put all their effort into current anime and HF project. Hard to believe that after this they will want to turn back to Fate route and adapt it just for rest of the die-hard Saber fans that don't satisfy current anime. More likely they move forward and adapt some other Fate title like Hollow Ataraxia (hottest candidate) or Extra and Apocrypha, eventually quite different TM title like for example constantly delayed Girls' Work (http://www.girlswork-animation.com/).

And the epidemic hath begun

I see what you did there.

Yeah I saw it too

:T_T:

[ukulelembo]

The lack of confirmed info on the length though still leave anything up in the air.
Project is still in pre-production, so they don't give you length because they themselves still don't know how long project will be.

They could just make a single movie because they are already planning in the future to make a full length series.
Are you listening to what I'm saying? They basically confirmed that they don't plan TV series for HF, because TV censorship don't allow them to show all what they want to show. This was directly confirmed in the magazine.


either way if they do animate Fate I get the feeling it will be a movie at best.
They don't animate Fate. Trust me. ;)

[mirakura]

They don't animate Fate. Trust me. ;)

I don't trust strangers :heh:

[GDB]

UBW hasn't even started airing yet. Can we please stop worrying about whether or not they'll do something else when they still have HF in the docket to do after the thing that hasn't even started yet?

I mean seriously, geez. Nothing debated about the fate route will change anything, and it's a nigh impossibility that they won't say anything further about it for at least a year. Do we really have to listen to the complaining for another year?

[mirakura]

You may have to. I will stop,eventually, but others may not. :meh:

[Mikethemaster]

Isn't Ufotble big sakura fans so them making HF movie with H-scene possible a given i wounder if they do the h-senes will the voice actors be on board. Don't VA in japan get bad rep in japan if they do a henti by Jap VA big name ones. Personally i wouldn't mind seeing Fate/Extra and ccc being animated they would use a diferent servent than saber i think Ufotble doesn't like saber that much, they just use her for money.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Isn't Ufotble big sakura fans so them making HF movie with H-scene possible a given i wounder if they do the h-senes will the voice actors be on board. Don't VA in japan get bad rep in japan if they do a henti by Jap VA big name ones. Personally i wouldn't mind seeing Fate/Extra and ccc being animated they would use a diferent servent than saber i think Ufotble doesn't like saber that much, they just use her for money.

They probably won't do full on H scenes, Kara shows the action nipples and all but they don't focus on it massively. They'll probably the action in a short shocking flash and then cut out unless it's something important to the plot like Shinji trying to rape Sakura before he dies. Basically like what you'd find in most movies. They're not making porn here. Some of it will be censored/removed anyway because even that's too much for cinema.

[GDB]

Ufotable is a collection of people, not a hive mind. As such, they each have preferences. The director for UBW, for example, is clearly a Rin fan as he was also the director of the Rin's Adventure episode of Fate/Zero.

However, one of the higher ups in charge of the HF movie(s) is a "true Sakura lover", and they chose the theatrical format over TV format because of the lower restrictions on content. But like Tenchi said, this isn't porn.

[Mikethemaster]

Thanks for clearing that up for me but i wounder what they mean by less rescrited sorry if i splet it wrong kind of tired, but what more gore higher budget art or will they be able to show the crest worms maybe not like you sad it not porn.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Thanks for clearing that up for me but i wounder what they mean by less rescrited sorry if i splet it wrong kind of tired, but what more gore higher budget art or will they be able to show the crest worms maybe not like you sad it not porn.

I think they'll be able to get away with most story related shit like crest worms (but they won't show in extended graphic detail), but most of random sex scenes between Shirou and Sakura will likely be cut short, I think the scene where Sakura lifts her skirt and she's wearing nothing will be heavily censored/removed.

I do wonder how they'll handle the movies though if there's several will they cut out almost all the random cooking etc that doesn't add too much to the story or keep it in because that rally doesn't make for a particularly interesting movie if they kept all of it. The routes length largely comes down to that filler, so it'll be interesting seeing they'll do.

[Mcfart]

Ufotable is a collection of people, not a hive mind. As such, they each have preferences. The director for UBW, for example, is clearly a Rin fan as he was also the director of the Rin's Adventure episode of Fate/Zero.

However, one of the higher ups in charge of the HF movie(s) is a "true Sakura lover", and they chose the theatrical format over TV format because of the lower restrictions on content. But like Tenchi said, this isn't porn.

Never liked the hentai in FSN...tho the threesome in Fate was funny, lol. I still don't remember what Rin's role was in "transferring" magic was ._.'

[mirakura]

I think they'll be able to get away with most story related shit like crest worms (but they won't show in extended graphic detail), but most of random sex scenes between Shirou and Sakura will likely be cut short, I think the scene where Sakura lifts her skirt and she's wearing nothing will be heavily censored/removed.

I do wonder how they'll handle the movies though if there's several will they cut out almost all the random cooking etc that doesn't add too much to the story or keep it in because that rally doesn't make for a particularly interesting movie if they kept all of it. The routes length largely comes down to that filler, so it'll be interesting seeing they'll do.

They could make Sakura have flash backs of it before she snaps :3

Never liked the hentai in FSN...tho the threesome in Fate was funny, lol. I still don't remember what Rin's role was in "transferring" magic was ._.'

She wanted to get in on the shtuff ;)

[Tenchi Hou Take]

They could make Sakura have flash backs of it before she snaps :3



She wanted to get in on the shtuff ;)l

Clearly, she was in love Shirou and likely had a thing for Saber. She wanted to ensure the preparations were in order.