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View Full Version : KanColle - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll


Klashikari
2015-03-18, 11:33
Welcome to the discussion thread for KanColle, Episode 11.

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SaintessHeart
2015-03-18, 11:39
Thanks for the create.

Kaga.

NOOOOOOOO.

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 11:40
Yamato superstar. :heh:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAZJxpKVEAAxupo.jpg:large

Only thing to say, what a cliffhanger. :(

- Was that Hoppō? Couldn't resist including her, despite her being misplaced at MI. :heh:

- A delay occured with the seperate fleets meeting? Anyway, Akagi sent Kongō and Buki to wait and proceeded forward with the others. Kidō Butai got hit by a that lovely Wo while they were preoccupied with Hoppō.

- Akagi can't launch planes anymore, same for Kaga I think.

- Tough scene with Kitakami. She and Ōi got into different fleets. While under pressure she calls for Ōi-cchi, realises that she's not there, goes "heh" and gets hit (?)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAZLAssUkAEWQin.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAZLA6hUcAAyuPc.jpg:large

Stark700
2015-03-18, 11:45
Wait...?! Kaga?!

Damn! And that battle turned out to be quite a fight against the fleet girls.
http://i.imgur.com/rnOs3FR.jpg

cloud04
2015-03-18, 11:45
dem flags are real now

Klashikari
2015-03-18, 12:40
Was that Hoppō? Couldn't resist including her, despite her being misplaced at MI. :heh:
No, actually, it was Hikoujouki, aka Henderson field.
I think she makes even less sense since she is part of Iron Bottom Sound...

*Edit: After watching again the raw, to be honest, I really don't know anymore if you meant the "other princess". The figure "on" Wo kai "looks" like Hoppou, but she looks... way bigger in term of certain proportions so it might be Hikoujouki prior being visible. *scratches head*

Anyway, as I thought, it was more like a setup than really the "first part" of the fight. I really think it would have been better if episode 10 was just the doolittle raid + Midway preparations, so episode 11 would focus on Midway while episode 12 wouldn't be cluttered.
As far as it goes, they will have to deal with the second half of the fight, exposing what is the actual deal of Operation FS and its benefits and the losses + epilogue.

I don't remember if they confirmed 12 episodes, but I hope there are 13 episodes, otherwise it will be quite awkward.

Scarletknive
2015-03-18, 12:50
No, actually, it was Hikoujouki, aka Henderson field.
I think she makes even less sense since she is part of Iron Bottom Sound...

I also think she makes less sense since she is supposed to be at Iron Bottom Sound... (Yes, I did read up about Hikoujouki's at wikia and wikiwiki.) until I go and read it up and found out that there is another Henderson Field at Midway. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henderson_Field_(Midway)) Guess the studio did their work on history.

SaintessHeart
2015-03-18, 12:57
That isn't Hoppo. It is a monster.

Hoppo is a loli.

The Green One
2015-03-18, 13:13
Geez Akagi, all that trouble to get Fubuki ready to be your guard and......you leave her behind. :heh: Gotta have that cliffhanger somehow I suppose. Things are looking grim.

IceHism
2015-03-18, 13:16
Looks like Kaga and Akagi got taiha'ed

oh man, i was looking forward to things being grim but i think it's gonna be very happy from now on.

SaintessHeart
2015-03-18, 13:17
No, actually, it was Hikoujouki, aka Henderson field.
I think she makes even less sense since she is part of Iron Bottom Sound...

*Edit: After watching again the raw, to be honest, I really don't know anymore if you meant the "other princess". The figure "on" Wo kai "looks" like Hoppou, but she looks... way bigger in term of certain proportions so it might be Hikoujouki prior being visible. *scratches head*

Anyway, as I thought, it was more like a setup than really the "first part" of the fight. I really think it would have been better if episode 10 was just the doolittle raid + Midway preparations, so episode 11 would focus on Midway while episode 12 wouldn't be cluttered.
As far as it goes, they will have to deal with the second half of the fight, exposing what is the actual deal of Operation FS and its benefits and the losses + epilogue.

I don't remember if they confirmed 12 episodes, but I hope there are 13 episodes, otherwise it will be quite awkward.

12+1 bonus?

Kind of reminds me of Akira Kurosawa's 7 Samurai where the comic relief of the party was killed in battle. Deft execution but the show goes on.

Verisimilitude
2015-03-18, 13:19
Who's that kanmusu standing on the cliff at Truk? I've heard a bunch of people saying its Taihou.

blitz1/2
2015-03-18, 13:19
Wasn't it supposed to be Midway Hime?

Oh and Teitoku better get his internet connection back on, because the ship girls are going mobile doll mode and it's not looking so good. xD

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 13:24
Who's that kanmusu standing on the cliff at Truk? I've heard a bunch of people saying its Taihou.
The one with the parasol? Yamato of course.

EDIT: Just going through the subbed version, right, missed that one during the raws, the one after the Yamato launching sequence. Could be her, although the hair is a bit too short.

Marina2
2015-03-18, 13:30
Who's that kanmusu standing on the cliff at Truk? I've heard a bunch of people saying its Taihou.

I also think she's Taihou.

http://i.imgur.com/Qn4s7Yh.jpg

D-Joe
2015-03-18, 13:31
No, actually, it was Hikoujouki, aka Henderson field.
I think she makes even less sense since she is part of Iron Bottom Sound...

*Edit: After watching again the raw, to be honest, I really don't know anymore if you meant the "other princess". The figure "on" Wo kai "looks" like Hoppou, but she looks... way bigger in term of certain proportions so it might be Hikoujouki prior being visible. *scratches head*

Anyway, as I thought, it was more like a setup than really the "first part" of the fight. I really think it would have been better if episode 10 was just the doolittle raid + Midway preparations, so episode 11 would focus on Midway while episode 12 wouldn't be cluttered.
As far as it goes, they will have to deal with the second half of the fight, exposing what is the actual deal of Operation FS and its benefits and the losses + epilogue.

I don't remember if they confirmed 12 episodes, but I hope there are 13 episodes, otherwise it will be quite awkward.

12 according to MX channel
http://www.mxtv.co.jp/bangumi/
Check March 25 and you will find out Kancolle episode 12 with "終"(the end)

Though maybe they already planned split cour, who knows.

Klashikari
2015-03-18, 13:32
Actually, there is someone else who is standing there without saying anything. I thought it was Mutsuki first, but it doesn't make much sense due to the context and the hair color + the lack of curly hair.

Considering the "collar" and the brown front bangs, I wouldn't be surprised if it is actually Taihou, although it is pretty... bad to introduce another kanmusu at the VERY LAST episode.

cloud04
2015-03-18, 13:38
admiral went into hidden coz he had to craft taihou at the last min?

CGrascal
2015-03-18, 13:39
Taihou? If they keep what happened to her, it'll be like introducing her and have her sink one minute in after her official entrance into the fight.

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 13:41
Yeah, it's Taihō:

http://i.imgur.com/YygWIUf.jpg

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-18, 13:43
3 Enemy carriers, no surprise there. :rolleyes:
So the one eyed carrtier might be there to represent Enterprise, since the bombers that hit akagi apparently belonged to her.

This episode makes me really want to know where the US fleet girls are atm, snce e already know that they can't be the US ships at all, due to the intro pretty much stating the problem is global.

I doubt it will happen, but it would be nice if the US Ships would make an actual appearance now (Not in form of their anger/regret/Yang side or whatever the abyssals are) and help shoot the Abyssal carriers down.
At least according to Akagi they sghould at least be in the general area.



I just hope Kitakami didn't sink back there.

As for Akagi - My bet goes to Fubuki shooting the bomb down.
At least there is some light for Yamato though: As a fleet girl sending her to Okinawa makes little sense, since she can't become stationary by sinking in shallow water anymore.

Also for Akagi, see the quote in my signature :P

Edit:
At least we won't see any scuttling.
Would make no sense as long as they don't tell us that the abyssals could assiminlate Akagi and Kaga :heh:

IceHism
2015-03-18, 13:46
Yeah, it's Taihō:

http://i.imgur.com/YygWIUf.jpg

I am so hyped. Glorious noto mamiko carrier

James Rye
2015-03-18, 13:48
Damn, the whole episode I was like "anybody but Kaga, anybody but Kaga". That beginning was like a brick to the face after 7 episodes of SOL. Where are you, Yamato? D:

Looks bad for the girls, wouldn't be surprised if some of them gets sunk next episode. Real question is if Akagi's suggestion to leave Maikaze out (who was the one who scuttled her in erh dream I suppose) will have an effect or not. Some stuff is different already, so is Akagi not carrying Kaga in her arms like in the dream. So maybe she will somehow survive? I dunno though, the Abyssals got them real good this time, would be kind of a shame if they didn't sunk a single shipgirl.
As long as said girl is not Kaga obviously. :P

I worry about the decoy fleet as well, especially about those Destroyer-chans...

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 13:58
3 Enemy carriers, no surprise there. :rolleyes:
So the one eyed carrtier might be there to represent Enterprise, since the bombers that hit akagi apparently belonged to her.
The lone bomb hit on Akagi was dropped by Richard Best from Enterprise's VB-6. But can we just stop making guesses which Abyssal might represent which USN ship? If we apply that logic then Flagship Kai Wo right there is Yorktown, Hornet and Enterprise rolled into one. :heh:

And if we want to be very exact, the USN didn't get into a surface engagement at Midway and the USN sure didn't have any CLTs (the Abyssal Chi-class that appeared here).

blitz1/2
2015-03-18, 14:02
So, maybe Teitoku went AWOL to buy DMM points to purchase some extra buckets, and maybe the 5th DIvision may return along with Taihou as reinforcements.

Klashikari
2015-03-18, 14:02
For those who missed it or can't figure the full roster for AL/MI:


Operation AL:
Mobile Unit 2:
Light Carrier Ryuujou
Light Carrier Junyou

Invasion Unit:
Heavy Cruiser Nachi
Light Cruiser Kuma
Light Cruiser Tama
Destroyer Akatsuki
Destroyer Hibiki
Destroyer Ikazuchi
Destroyer Inazuma

Operation MI:
Main Force - Invasion Force:
First Fleet:
Battleship Yamato
Battleship Kongou
Battleship Hiei

Nineth Fleet:
-Torpedo Cruiser Ooi
-Torpedo Cruiser Kitakami

Support Fleet:
-Light Cruiser Yuubari

Invasion Fleet:
Seventh Fleet:
-Aviation Cruiser Mogami
-Heavy Cruiser Mikuma

Second Destroyer Division:
-Destroyer Samidare
-Destroyer Harusame
-Destroyer Murasame
-Destroyer Yuudachi

Main Force:
Carrier Mobile Unit:
First Carrier Division:
-Standard Carrier Akagi
-Standard Carrier Kaga

Second Carrier Division:
-Standard Carrier Hiryuu
-Standard Carrier Souryuu

Third Fleet:
-Battleship Haruna
-Battleship Kirishima

????????
Eighth Fleet:
-Heavy Cruiser Tone
-Heavy Cruiser Chikuma

???? Destroyer Fleet:
-Destroyer Maikaze
-Destroyer Akigumo
-Destroyer Makigumo
-Destroyer Fubuki


Oh yeah... I don't get why 編成 was translated into "battle order" by CR...

James Rye
2015-03-18, 14:03
Looks like Agaki's dream is actually very different from the reality besieds carrying an unmoving Kaga. In her dream we see Souryuu and Kitakami getting hit, but we also see Mogami, Haruna and Kirishima there instead of Yuudachi, Hiei and Kongou who together with Fubuki was told to stay behind and wait for Yamato and her fleet.

Also can anybody enlighten me who Akagi is talking about when she says "I'm sorry. I couldn't protect her."?

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-18, 14:03
The lone bomb hit on Akagi was dropped by Richard Best from Enterprise's VB-6. But can we just stop making guesses which Abyssal might represent which USN ship? If we apply that logic then Flagship Kai Wo right there is Yorktown, Hornet and Enterprise rolled into one. :heh:

And if we want to be very exact, the USN didn't get into a surface engagement at Midway and the USN sure didn't have any CLTs (the Abyssal Chi-class that appeared here).

As I already said in my earlier post - we already know they can't be either of the carriers, due to lore reasons established in EP 1.
Which is why it would be nice to actually see at least their planes appearing and shootingg down abyssals.

If what Akagi says is true the US ships would right now be in the general area, and could actually help shooting the abyssals down.

Don't get me wrong there I'm positive it won't happen, but it would be a nice way to end the show, considering that they aren't really enemies atm.

So, maybe Teitoku went AWOL to buy DMM points to purchase some extra buckets, and maybe the 5th DIvision may return along with Taihou as reinforcements.

Or he is just idling and doesn't get it because Nagato isn't a load enough boat to wake him up .:heh:

Edit:
Looks like Agaki's dream is actually very different from the reality besieds carrying an unmoving Kaga. In her dream we see Souryuu and Kitakami getting hit, but we also see Mogami, Haruna and Kirishima there instead of Yuudachi, Hiei and Kongou who together with Fubuki was told to stay behind and wait for Yamato and her fleet.

Also can anybody enlighten me who Akagi is talking about when she says "I'm sorry. I couldn't protect her."?


Her dream is probably supposed to be the actual midway, with her carrier hull being replaced by her humanoid form until the last scene.
The ships actually remember how they were sunk, in the game its mostly when they get sunk(Nagato), moderately damaged(Bismarck) or dream(Nagato) though.

Yuudachi even remembers the name of her captain.

Captain Kikkawa... I can... see you again now... right?

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 14:17
????????
Eighth Fleet:
-Heavy Cruiser Tone
-Heavy Cruiser Chikuma

???? Destroyer Fleet:
-Destroyer Maikaze
-Destroyer Akigumo
-Destroyer Makigumo
-Destroyer Fubuki

Upper row is 随伴護衛部隊, probably meaning something like Escort Force.

Header for the destroyer is 護衛駆逐隊, something like Destroyer Escort Group.

LoweGear
2015-03-18, 14:28
You know, I once suggested over at another forum that the Admiral's treatment of Fubuki - from his dreams of marrying her, to powerlevelling her using Mobile Group 5, to conveniently assigning her as Akagi's escort in an all-carrier battle for her Kai Ni form without even knowing what it's capable of - was metagamingg on the Admiral's part.

I really didn't expect Kancolle to go meta as an actual major plot point though. :heh:

Kopi
2015-03-18, 14:29
Introducing Taihou is hype. S2 please. Disappointed that the abyssal humanoids don't have any voices again..

Just realized while the next episode's title is a reference to the carriers getting dive-bombed, it is also a reference to Aircraft Carrier Demon's attacking line.

James Rye
2015-03-18, 14:39
The Airfield princess is not the Midway Hime, right? I thought our girls would encounter the Midway Hime there in M1. Then again, could it be that Midayway Hime has yet to come into existence? I mean, Midway Hime looks like a mix of Akagi and Kaga so perhaps we will see Midway Hime in a possible Season 2. And if the studio goes with the "sunk shipgirls become Abyssal ships" then Akagi might really get sunk next episode. <.<

Should we do a poll on who we bet on to not make it next episode? My twenty bucks are on Akagi and Kitakami. :P

chaosprophet
2015-03-18, 14:41
My favorite episode so far. I like this concept of something trying to make then reach the same ultimate fate they had when they were ships. I'm expecting Bucky and Kongou coming to the rescue, likely Bucky shooting down that bomb.

admiral went into hidden coz he had to craft taihou at the last min?
That may be an interesting theory. Whether it's crafting or having to find the girl with Taihou's soul and making her equipment as quick as possible so she can participate on the strategy, that could be a reason why he hadn't show himself. Although even if in a rush, you wonder why he couldn't at least contact them saying he is safe.

@AC-Phoenix You mean the whole thing about fate means the US ships would have to be there? I disagree, it don't says anything about the actual time. In the past, or in a future time the US ships could end up fighting there and having their side of the fate regarding the Midway battle happening to them. In a battle where the abyssal would be representing the Japanese like how they're representing the US fleet for the Japanese ship-girls now. They're probably fighting the abyssal near their own waters, considering they're supposed to be overwhelming humanity a lot.

Nicaea
2015-03-18, 14:46
I still think that they will survive somehow. Still, where is Yamato? Did she somehow malfunction and use up al of her fuel?

Ithekro
2015-03-18, 14:52
Battle order or "Order of Battle".

The note is that was the planned list of ships. Not what was sent out this time.

The dream at the start was more or less what happened in 1942 at the Battle of Midway. Soryu being bombed. Hiryu still fighting even as Kaga and Akagi are limping along. Mogami and Mikuma running into each other followed by Mikuma sinking (they were part of the Main Fleet though, not the Striking Fleet or Invasion Fleet). Haruna and Kirishima as the carrier's battleship escorts.

The "modern" fleet is different, but is making the same mistakes, since Akagi can't figure out the details, only the ending. All the mistakes are the same...save when it comes to Fubuki and Kongo. The plan to meet up with the battleships was not exactly the plan. It was, but not until later. The Striking Fleet didn't leave anyone behind to wait for the Main Fleet that I remember. The orginal plan was to strike Midway and invade it. This would draw out the American carriers stationed at Pearl Harbor. By the time they should have arrived, the Main Fleet would be there and the Striking Fleet would be in position to crush the remaining American forces moving on the Main Fleet. The Japanese had even planned a location to wait for the American carriers after they finished with Midway. It was more or less the same location the American carriers were waiting for the Japanese (the Americans code named it "Point Luck" since what they did against the Japanse was considered a gamble at best and they needed all the luck they could get).

But having Kongo and Fubuki closer than the others gives them a chance....also the AL operation fleet has special orders. A ploy? An out. Bring in Sixth Division to cut off the Wo's chance of retreat (since we still have no submarines presented).

If Fubuki can deal with the Wo's planes, than the others can advance on the Wo's and Hime. Yamato's shells are perfect for Himes. And three Wo are not enough to deal with Yamato and company if they have proper AA (Fubuki, and if they want to be mean, Taihou).

Fubuki is fitted with AA that is very advanced for their fleet and Kongo is probably the most accurate battleship in the fleet (historically speaking).

chaosprophet
2015-03-18, 14:54
I still think that they will survive somehow. Still, where is Yamato? Did she somehow malfunction and use up al of her fuel?

That's a good question. Two possibilities come to mind, they got delayed because they had to suddenly rendezvous with someone else / had to go through a different route based on those orders Nachi was carrying; they got stopped in their tracks by a suprise enemy fleet with possible an really strong enemy, like the Battleship-hime. In the later case, maybe while Fubuki goes to meet with the carriers, Kongou may go look for the others that are late.

I think chances of their mission changing based on that order to be more likely. There must be a reason they showed that to us this episode.

orion
2015-03-18, 14:56
The Airfield princess is not the Midway Hime, right? I thought our girls would encounter the Midway Hime there in M1. Then again, could it be that Midayway Hime has yet to come into existence? I mean, Midway Hime looks like a mix of Akagi and Kaga so perhaps we will see Midway Hime in a possible Season 2. And if the studio goes with the "sunk shipgirls become Abyssal ships" then Akagi might really get sunk next episode. <.<

Should we do a poll on who we bet on to not make it next episode? My twenty bucks are on Akagi and Kitakami. :P

Akagi survived the real Battle of Midway so she won't die here imo. Kaga, Hiryu and Soryu also survived that battle.

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 15:05
Akagi survived the real Battle of Midway so she won't die here imo. Kaga, Hiryu and Soryu also survived that battle.
Um, what? All four were scuttled at Midway.

Eisdrache
2015-03-18, 15:15
For the undisputed main ship of carrier force one, Akagi is seriously failing. Not only did she succumb to the pressure when being attacked, she wasn't able to come up with a decision when they didn't meet up with Yamato either.

As for the rest of the episode, if they sink Tone/Soryu/Kaga I'll rage so hard.
New kanmusu in the last episode, seriously?
Is 'river, river, river' a real message?
KTKM got hit/sunk(?)
No equip scene for Yamato?!

Overall this episode tried really hard to create a dramatical feeling but it fell short in very many parts.

Ithekro
2015-03-18, 15:18
The dream at the start shows the causualties of the Battle of Midway on the Japanse side (minus Hiryu, who hadn't sunk yet...though Mikuma was sunk after all of the carriers were scuttled.)

orion
2015-03-18, 15:18
Um, what? All four were scuttled at Midway.

Wiki stated Akagi survived Midway. The only one that sank was Mikuma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway#Japanese_casualties

However, she was skuttled on June 5th as you stated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Akagi

If Fubuki decides to go to Akagi, then Akagi prob won't sink as Fubuki wasn't with Akagi at the original Midway.

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 15:25
Wiki stated Akagi survived Midway. The only one that sank was Mikuma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway#Japanese_casualties
Uhm, no. You misunderstood something in there. Just look at the Casualties and Losses row in the box on the top right-hand side of the article.

If Fubuki decides to go to Akagi, then Akagi prob won't sink as Fubuki wasn't with Akagi at the original Midway.
Neither were Yūdachi, Kongō or Kitakami.

Is 'river, river, river' a real message?

The Japanese codeword to indicate that total surprise had been achieved at Pearl Harbor was "tora, tora, tora" (tora meaning tiger). So why not.

Nvis
2015-03-18, 15:39
No Midway-hime...:sad:

Yamato's "official" debut = :heh:

Ithekro
2015-03-18, 15:44
That list of casualties is for the people killed. Not the ships.

On June 4th:
Soryu was scuttled first. Followed by Kaga.

The next day (June 5th) Akagi was scuttled, followed four hours later by Hiryu, who had been damaged later the previous day.

Mogami ran into Mikuma after Mikuma's helmsman turned her to evade submarines at too great an angle, causing Mogami, that was behind her, to run into her on the ordered course change. They limped behind the retreating Main Fleet and were subject to attacks form airplanes from Midway and later Hornet and Enterprise. Mikuma's fate was sealed by a fire that set off her own oxygen driven torpedoes. Mikuma sunk onthe 6th of June.

Later on June 6th, I-168 torpedoed the crippled USS Yorktown and the escorting USS Hammann. Hammann broke in two and sank. They tried to save Yorktown once more, but she eventually sank on June 7th, ending the Battle of Midway.

orion
2015-03-18, 15:54
Uhm, no. You misunderstood something in there. Just look at the Casualties and Losses row in the box on the top right-hand side of the article.


Yep. On further digging, Akagi was prob remembering and mourning what happened to Kaga in her dream at the original battle. So that ship we saw was the original Kaga on fire, right?

msg
2015-03-18, 15:54
Does "scuttling" can be considered "death" in a kancolle world? or "comatose"? :p

Lol i feel kinda cheated that they didn't show Yamato rigging her equipments up.Whats up with that?:heh:

It's cool that we got to see Akagi "past live" in her dream.

As for the ships...inb4 someone saves them (especially Akagi)

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 15:58
Yep. On further digging, Akagi was prob remembering and mourning what happened to Kaga in her dream at the original battle. So that ship we saw was the original Kaga on fire, right?
No, the ship was Akagi. Recognisable by the ア on the flightdeck (which by the way is also on the flightdeck part Akagi's wearing) and the island that's on the port side.

orion
2015-03-18, 16:00
Does "scuttling" can be considered "death" in a kancolle world? or "comatose"? :p


Wouldn't that be like euthanasia, mercy killing or "killed by friendly fire"? Is that allowed?

Ithekro
2015-03-18, 16:01
The ship on fire...being scuttled? That was Akagi.

Scuttle in naval terms is sunking your own ships. In Kancolle world? Suicide (if self-scuttled like Bismarck) or assisted suicide (to prevent capture I guess. Or because they are actually too heavy to two back to base with the enemy still around. Best to sink them rather than get three or four others sunl as well trying to rescue her, right?).

Klashikari
2015-03-18, 16:01
Does "scuttling" can be considered "death" in a kancolle world? or "comatose"? :p
Considering it is also Akagi's line when she sinks, it is definitely as good as being sunk by the enemy.
Lol i feel kinda cheated that they didn't show Yamato rigging her equipments up.Whats up with that?:heh:Several of us felt that way as well. I would like that scene to be there in the BD but I don't expect much considering the overall production value of the series as of late.

orion
2015-03-18, 16:02
No, the ship was Akagi. Recognisable by the ア on the flightdeck (which by the way is also on the flightdeck part Akagi's wearing) and the island that's on the port side.

Okay, so we saw original Akagi sinking while mourning how she couldn't protect Kaga?

Ithekro
2015-03-18, 16:07
Because she couldn't. Kaga was sunk first of the two. Here you see Akagi trying to tow Kaga only to get bombed. Kaga is nowhere to be seen when Akagi asks to be scuttled. She couldn't protect Kaga, and Akagi burned for hours. She was done, but needed help to sink. Poor Miakaze has to "do the honors".

The hope is that Fubuki will not have to "do the honors" in Miakaze's place.

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-18, 16:10
Okay, so we saw original Akagi sinking while mourning how she couldn't protect Kaga?

Her dream was what it was a dream.
Nothing that should be taken too serious.

Her mind basically replaced all the ships with their current image and went back to 'oh wait... we were not always humanoid' at the latter part, remembering how she used to look like.

Nvis
2015-03-18, 16:10
I don't understand why she asks to be scuttled. Not like the Abyssal would capture her anyways.

Klashikari
2015-03-18, 16:12
I don't understand why she asks to be scuttled. Not like Abyssal would capture her anyways.
It is plainly Akagi overlapping kanmusu with events that actually occured.

And... no, I don't think there is any confirmation they can't be captured, and we know from the game that Kanmusu can be corrupted, so better be scuttled then being seized by the enemy anyway.

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 16:15
Several of us felt that way as well. I would like that scene to be there in the BD but I don't expect much considering the overall production value of the series as of late.
Indeed. I went from "do we get to see a launching sequence?" to "oh, so they are going out without it" to "is this a Yamato launching sequence?!?" to "uhm, where was the equipment part?". :heh:

All in all the budget and time allocation is far from perfect and it shows in the animation. My personal highlight of this episode, Wo's face here:

http://i.imgur.com/Dk6H82d.png

James Rye
2015-03-18, 16:18
Okay, so we saw original Akagi sinking while mourning how she couldn't protect Kaga?

Probably. First thing Akagi did was looking if Kaga was still sleeping at her side when she woke up, so it could be a hint that she wanted to protect Kaga/keep Kaga alive in her dream.
If they really let Akagi die/sink next episode while Kaga survives (that desperate arm reach, look at her eyes, look at those eyes full of fear of losing AkagI!) and another season get announced, then I so cannot wait to see how Kaga will change with the loss of Akagi!
If that happens that is. Kaga could still get sunk next episode.....

I don't understand why she asks to be scuttled. Not like the Abyssal would capture her anyways.

Historical seen it was a japanese honor thing, not becoming a POW no matter what. But for the shipgirls here, it could be very likely that Abyssals might be able to capture them. Remember that huge destroyer who tried to "eat" Fubuki? Maybe that was an attempt to get a shipgirl into their ranks. If Akagi gets sunk she might become the "Midway Hime" for another season where Fubuki and the others have to sink their former friend.

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 16:22
Historical seen it was a japanese honor thing, not becoming a POW no matter what.
This doesn't have something to do with the Japanese mentality. They were not the only ones who did scuttle their crippled ships. Bismarck for example was scuttled by her crew, as was USS Lexington at Coral Sea. If your ship is unable to make it back to port it's better to sink her yourself, rather than risk the enemy capture her and potentially get something out of it.

Ithekro
2015-03-18, 16:33
The Americans attempted to scuttle USS Hornet to prevent capture. They failed. The Japanese took her on tow, but later scuttled her to prevent the Americans from retaking her.

As for the episode, what if the reason for Yamato's delay is Nagato and Mutsu deciding to join in at the last minute?

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-18, 16:34
It is plainly Akagi overlapping kanmusu with events that actually occured.

And... no, I don't think there is any confirmation they can't be captured, and we know from the game that Kanmusu can be corrupted, so better be scuttled then being seized by the enemy anyway.

Was that an old event story line or are you referring to the princesses/demons?

Ithekro
2015-03-18, 16:38
The first part would be shipgirls in place of the real ships in Akagi's nightmares.

The rest is the appearances of more recent princesses and oni. More recent ones look a lot like regular shipgirls sunk in those places in history. Though it seems to be two shipgirls that sank are merged into one Abyssal boss type ship/base. Based on appearances.

Wandering Soul
2015-03-18, 17:06
Fubuki is supposed to be Akagi's escort and Akagi just decides to her behind. Ending doesn't look good for Kaga or Akagi. But I still have doubts that things will go like some people think it will.

Kakurin
2015-03-18, 17:10
Fubuki is supposed to be Akagi's escort and Akagi just decides to her behind. Ending doesn't look good for Kaga or Akagi. But I still have doubts that things will go like some people think it will.
I personally think it's set up for a Fubuki rescue intervention followed by Yamato and the others joining and defeating the Hime and the Wo, saving most of Kidō Butai in the process. Fear that Kitakami's lost though. The explosion from the torpedo hit was really, really big.

Triple_R
2015-03-18, 17:13
Excellent episode eleven.

They did a great job of making the visuals and audio appropriately anxious, dramatic, and epic for several key moments in the episode.

Akagi (and friends) battling against fate might honestly be a stroke of genius - It adds some gravitas to the show, while making Akagi a bit more interesting and giving the show a neat meta-level that nonetheless works seamlessly in-canon with the characters and the plot.

The cliffhanger moment couldn't be much better. It was beautifully built up to, and the fade to black while Fubuki screams Akagi's name was a powerful and chilling moment.

I've read this show take a fair bit of criticism, but for whatever flaws it may have, it has a wonderfully theatrical sense of drama and timing. Very gripping and entertaining, at least in this anime-only viewer's eyes and ears.


I suspect that Fubuki will save Akagi, but I'm less confident over them totally avoiding casualties. It'll be interesting to see how things turn out next episode.

IceHism
2015-03-18, 17:17
Fubuki is supposed to be Akagi's escort and Akagi just decides to her behind. Ending doesn't look good for Kaga or Akagi. But I still have doubts that things will go like some people think it will.

If they really wanted to make kancolle grim, then they would have just followed history already. I'm pretty sure it's gonna end happily

I do got to say that i'm not sure whether kancolle trying to force itself to have a plot was a good decision on the staff's part.

FlareKnight
2015-03-18, 17:39
Yeah, the episode leaves me feeling interested in the result but not sure how interesting the result will be. The fact that they left the consequence for Akagi off screen does give the impression that she'll be fine and the MIA admiral's vision of Fubuki being a glorious savior will come to pass. Not the worst result to be sure, but not as interesting.

It was interesting in a lot of ways though. Akagi fighting against fate was great. She was just trying everything she could, trying to figure out what the danger was and get around it. Just making the best decisions she had.

Did turn into a horrific situation though. A lot of damage all around and looks like Kitakami is dead. Which is sad (she was the more likable of the yuri duo), but does give some weight to what is going on here.

NorthernFallout
2015-03-18, 17:45
Well, this was one school of foreshadowing. Seems they went with the "IN YOUR FACE" type. Was very nice to see some more shipgirls animated, though.

I'm very interested to see where they go with all this in E12. While I'd love to see a massacre (huehue) I'm at least hoping for a few sinking, and expecting a happy end. But we'll see.

Houreki
2015-03-18, 18:28
Wait!, is Kitakami really dead?

cloud04
2015-03-18, 18:33
Wait!, is Kitakami really dead?

didnt say specifically, we can assume that it was that case, it missed, or she's in taiha

Ithekro
2015-03-18, 18:43
Ooi spoiled her too much.

That or we are going to find out she's actaully badass when Ooi's not around. She did mention that she and Ooi use to compete to see who got the most kills.

Or we'll be subject to the dead-to-the-world Ooi once the survivors get back. Which is odd since it is usually Kitakami that is the greaving one after Ooi is sunk. Kitakami having survived the war.

Still no Yukikaze.

Marcus H.
2015-03-18, 18:58
You know, all this speculation of "who sinks or not" and "are we gonna follow history or not" actually made this series more tense than it actually is, as if the production team already anticipated how people will try to predict the ending.

Will Akagi sink? Will Operation MI be a bust? Are the kanmusu, despite their engines and artillery, merely sailboats carried to their end by the wind called Fate?

Also, why is someone bringing a mysterious set of mission orders in battle?

Wandering Soul
2015-03-18, 18:59
If they really wanted to make kancolle grim, then they would have just followed history already. I'm pretty sure it's gonna end happily

I do got to say that i'm not sure whether kancolle trying to force itself to have a plot was a good decision on the staff's part.
Yeah I don't really see a grim ending in store and I'm expecting a happy one.

FlareKnight
2015-03-18, 19:02
Yeah I don't really see a grim ending in store and I'm expecting a happy one.Yeah, kind of hard to be down about this episode with the double Kongou avatars above :D.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Kongou brings in the cavalry and they charge forward to glory :heh:.

cloud04
2015-03-18, 19:05
im still curious why the escort didnt come/(maybe late), although it might be coz of what nachi has in her hand

Triple_R
2015-03-18, 19:09
You know, all this speculation of "who sinks or not" and "are we gonna follow history or not" actually made this series more tense than it actually is, as if the production team already anticipated how people will try to predict the ending.

Will Akagi sink? Will Operation MI be a bust? Are the kanmusu, despite their engines and artillery, merely sailboats carried to their end by the wind called Fate?

Also, why is someone bringing a mysterious set of mission orders in battle?

Exactly. All of this makes the show a bit more suspenseful, which makes it more fun and interesting, in my opinion.

Granted, I get the impression that most of us here expect a happy ending, but at least there's a tiny bit of doubt or uncertain speculation to how everything will turn out. If Kisaragi had never been sunk, and if the show hadn't been as serious as it is (at times), the plot would probably feel more predictable and less suspenseful.

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-18, 19:10
The first part would be shipgirls in place of the real ships in Akagi's nightmares.

The rest is the appearances of more recent princesses and oni. More recent ones look a lot like regular shipgirls sunk in those places in history. Though it seems to be two shipgirls that sank are merged into one Abyssal boss type ship/base. Based on appearances.

What I was referring to is, whether there was some actual text in that regard in the game. I can't read it so I wouldn't know if there was.

~Yami~
2015-03-18, 19:12
so... admiral is disappeared to test his luck in crafting Taihou :heh:

I like the build-up before MI mission.. having Nagato-Mutsu moment is not bad as well

from this episode, now I learn why carrier can't launch a plane when they are damaged.. so the bow string got cut :heh:
I thought Akagi would be a calm person but it seems those death flag dream has affected her too much

I hope Fubuki would save the day and her fleet... there's no way I can watch them sunk (all those kanmusu are my favorite in carrier group 1)
but I really wonder what is happening to the main fleet.. don't tell me... :sad:

chaosprophet
2015-03-18, 19:16
If Kitakami had died there we would probably have seen at least a sink scene/line. Also it didn't really seems to me that was supposed to shown her getting hit but just showing a big explosion to show how dire their situation is. It also seemed to me that she wasn't really having a hard time, and wanted Ooi help at that moment, in avoiding torpedoes incoming to her, but rather trying to destroy the torpedoes that were targeting the carriers, as their escort.

Qikz
2015-03-18, 19:52
Kitakami is clearly not dead, she just can't die. She can't!

Also Fubuki is clearly going to step in and shoot the bombs out of the sky. There's no other reason for her to have trained her AA so hard. What's the point of her getting kai and then stand waiting for Yamato and her huge fuel tanks going slowly to turn up.

I honestly don't think or want anyone to sink. I'm just glad Soryuu and Hiryuu got some lines and so did Tama/Kuma! All that's missing now is Ryuujyou appearing <3

James Rye
2015-03-18, 19:53
If nobody would get sunk in the final fight why even bother sinking Kirisaki in the first place? That death in the 3rd episode gave us the thrill of shipgirls death being possible thus there being the possibility to see your favorite die on screen. If Kirisaki remains the sole vicitm then that would feel kind of off.

Given the ending, I think Fubuki returned alone, letting Kongou wait for the Yamato fleet, just in time to aid the main fleet but to late to help Akagi. As we have seen with Shouhou, once a shipgirl burns, that's pretty much it. You can't carry somebody home in your arms who's burning like a forest in Californien.

And no matter how good Fubuki became or how much the Admiral wanted her in the plan due her AA-guns and skills - there is simply no way Fubuki could save Akagi now, not from a dropped torpedo. She would need all the luck of her entire life combinded to land a shot on the torpedo to make it expldoe before it hit Akagi and that from probably quite a distance as well.
I think, Akagi is earning her decision's results. If she had kept Fubuki at her side, then Fubuki would have surely shot down those planes targeting Akagi before they could have dropped the bombs on her. But so, Fubuki cannot do anything, but shout her admiration's name.

So yeah, my money is on Akagi burning, the other shipgirls reuniting and trying to get a hold of the situation and making their stand to possibly saving Akagi. But the Abyssals will give them a hard time and maybe even sink one or two of the shipgirls or at least hurt quite a lot of them in the process to rescue Akagi somehow despite her burning.
Then to avoid further casulties the fleet has to retreat meaning somebody has to sink Akagi because who knows what the Abyssals would do to a captured shipgirl. And well, then the fight is pretty much over once they hit the Yamato fleet who will rekt the Abyssal pursuers. The rest of the episode will be about the grieve of the loss of Akagi and possibly Kitakami as well.

I could be wrong though. :P
Wouldn't liked it much though if we get a happy ending without a single shipgirl going down in the final fight of the 1st season. <.<

Azuma Denton
2015-03-18, 20:03
^
Err, it's Kisaragi, btw...

chaosprophet
2015-03-18, 20:16
I'm wondering about possible implications regarding the orders Nachi got.Why not reveal to them before going? The enemy seems to know their code, but they could always have told them before going out just like what was done with the plan for this mission. So it makes me think there may be a spy, or at least Nagato or the admiral think so. Be it an spy on their naval base or on a different one. It would also explain how the Abyssal seems to know the actual base they would attack to lay their trap, even thought they used a fake base name in communications and had a decoy attack. And since the mission began they had radio silence.

If nobody would get sunk in the final fight why even bother sinking Kirisaki in the first place? That death in the 3rd episode gave us the thrill of shipgirls death being possible thus there being the possibility to see your favorite die on screen. If Kirisaki remains the sole vicitm then that would feel kind of off.
Not really, Kisaragi sinking did its job: making we realize it's possible for them to sink so we get more tense at the battles. But like I said before, I don't think anyone major will sink now (maybe someone off screen like how it may have been the case with that light carrier), on the very end, for a few reasons:

As it was said in an interview, the show is about Fubuki grow. Fubuki having been training to protect the others, specially Akagi and fight the enemy planes, so I would expect to see the result of that grow at the end with she saving them.

Akagi death would be important for Fubuki's grown, but that would have had to happen earlier, preferably at a middle point of the show. If it happens now it would be incredible cheapened out, as there isn't time to portray it well.

A lot about this episode was changing that fate that seems to be leading the ship-girls to their demise. So I would expect them to actually be able to change it properly. Some shows would prefer to take a darker path, and while I tend to love those kinds of shows, that's not what this anime have been building up too.

refrain
2015-03-18, 21:03
So the 2 mysterious ships with Yamato is Shoukaku and Zuikaku?
http://i.imgur.com/uwOaNVe.png

Miraluka
2015-03-18, 21:27
Overall this episode tried really hard to create a dramatical feeling but it fell short in very many parts.
It's the consequence of not making a proper development due to the excessive Fubuki's focus of this series.

Ithekro
2015-03-18, 21:34
Having the Cranes and Taiho with Yamato would change the odds considerably even if Akagi sinks. Even more if Nagato and Mutsu head out as well (rather than stay and defend the base).

This anime doesn't appear to be about the horrors or futile nature of war. Nor is it glorifying it. The loss of one shipgirl adds to the tension this late on as the posibility that others could sink is real. Akagi's dream reminding people of the real Midway increases that tension as Akagi repeats Nagumo's mistakes, while Nagato potentally repeats Yamamoto's mistakes. But things have changed. Things are different. Fubuki being as advances as she is is only one thing. Having Shimakaze around at all is a big thing. Taiho is another (though I wonder if she's remember this happening, she's seems sad).

Having Akagi sink at this time would be a downer, but would work as a narrative if they do intend to have a second season, thus Akagi's death pushing Fubuki even harder as they head to the Solomoms (and Ironbottom Sound). If they go their...and keep things moderately historical....Fubuki will not make it out of the series alive. Which is why things have to change.

What is the line from the OP, 'Don't repeat the tragedy'. All the pieces are in place to turn the tide of the war. Remember that the Shipgirls and humanity have been more or less losing until recently. In history, Japan was sweeping the Pacific with nothing really stopping them. The turning point was Midway. Either the Japanese could continue on, or the Allies would stop them. Now? The Shipgirls are advancing, but will the Abyssal turn the tide and retake the oceans again?

Nagato's questioning why they are there is interesting though. And it is a valid question with no answer.

blakstealth
2015-03-18, 21:35
Aw, hell no. This cannot be. If Akagi goes down, we're gonna have Fubuki crying and weepin EVEN MORE. NO, THIS CANNOT HAPPEN.

And ayo, Yamato looked so cool and elegant. I wish we got to see the full transformation sortie.

blitz1/2
2015-03-18, 21:55
Aw, hell no. This cannot be. If Akagi goes down, we're gonna have Fubuki crying and weepin EVEN MORE. NO, THIS CANNOT HAPPEN.

And ayo, Yamato looked so cool and elegant. I wish we got to see the full transformation sortie.

Welll....

You can say this is what happens when the player character is MISSING from the show. :heh: The girls are going mobile doll mode on us without player approval. Again, the Teitoku better get his internet connection back up before his own fleet destroys itself before he could reap the awards.

blakstealth
2015-03-18, 22:00
Admiral gotta upgrade from his Walmart connection!

/americajokes

IceHism
2015-03-18, 22:03
Welll....

You can say this is what happens when the player character is MISSING from the show. :heh: The girls are going mobile doll mode on us without player approval. Again, the Teitoku better get his internet connection back up before his own fleet destroys itself before he could reap the awards.

I wonder what this guy is doing with his internet. Japan has the 2nd fastest internet in the world and costs far less than most ISPs in the west.

Marcus H.
2015-03-18, 22:05
Uploading "declassified footage", most likely. :naughty:

Miraluka
2015-03-18, 22:08
Aw, hell no. This cannot be. If Akagi goes down, we're gonna have Fubuki crying and weepin EVEN MORE. NO, THIS CANNOT HAPPEN.

And ayo, Yamato looked so cool and elegant. I wish we got to see the full transformation sortie.
ARGHHH
Not again!

Ithekro
2015-03-18, 22:09
Uploading "declassified footage", most likely. :naughty:

I'm pretty sure NuiNui and Bucki sank Aoba about taking those already.

blitz1/2
2015-03-18, 22:18
I wonder what this guy is doing with his internet. Japan has the 2nd fastest internet in the world and costs far less than most ISPs in the west.

Nono....THis is what happened:

Possibility 1
When naval base was hit, the Teitoku disconnected, hence why there is no body when the base was razed to the ground.

Possibility 2
Teitoku got banned from current server due to cheating (more than 4 fleets), creating the Kisaragi bug.

EDIT: Wait, did they send out Tone when she was Chuuhaed, BUCKET her or repair her before you sortie!

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-18, 22:39
Nono....THis is what happened:

Possibility 1
When naval base was hit, the Teitoku disconnected, hence why there is no body when the base was razed to the ground.

Possibility 2
Teitoku got banned from current server due to cheating (more than 4 fleets), creating the Kisaragi bug.

EDIT: Wait, did they send out Tone when she was Chuuhaed, BUCKET her or repair her before you sortie!

Its only her catapult thats broken, which is a reference to actual happenings.
During WWII her catapult malfunctioned and her recon planes couldn't launch.
Pretty much what Akagi said about destiny :heh:

blitz1/2
2015-03-18, 22:41
Its only her catapult thats broken, which is a reference to actual happenings.
Her catapult malfunctioned and her recon planes couldn't launch.
Pretty much what Akagi said about destiny :heh:

So fate was powerful enough to change gameplay mechanics, damn that sux. Well, that's RNGsama in a nutshell lol.

Tiresias
2015-03-18, 23:45
Oh wow, they're really milking the "We must learn from the past or doomed to repeat it" thing for all it's worth.

Wo was awesome. I am content.

What, still no Midway Hime? I'm still waiting for those tracts of land!

Can't wait for last ep! Hope we'll see Jun'you and the rest of the ships from the other base.

Wild Goose
2015-03-19, 01:15
Dere Nagato shows her vulnerable side to Mutsu. <3

Also Akagi and Kaga sleep next to each other, Akagashipping is a go!

Hmm. I've got a copy of Shattered Sword at home. I really should get to reading it.

LoweGear
2015-03-19, 01:18
Also Akagi and Kaga sleep next to each other, Akagashipping is a go!


Pffft.

Carrier Group 1 x Carrier Group 5 four-way please.

*RUUUUUUUUUNS*

Ithekro
2015-03-19, 01:22
But Soukaku doesn't show interest in escort ships.

Vaans
2015-03-19, 01:55
So the 2 mysterious ships with Yamato is Shoukaku and Zuikaku?
http://i.imgur.com/uwOaNVe.png

Whoa. i didn't saw this the first time. They must be them. But why kind of hide them.

Ithekro
2015-03-19, 02:10
Knowing Soukaku and Zuikaku are on the way would clearly change things. Three Wo and Airfield Hime verse 1st and 2nd Carrier Divisions is nearly even if Akagi knows the Wos are out there. Adding 5th Carrier (and potentially 4th Carrier) Division changes things entirely even if Akagi sunks. They would still win, which is what Akagi and Kaga want.

cloud04
2015-03-19, 02:12
add to that if they let taihou sortie too

Tiresias
2015-03-19, 02:14
Belated realization that those "Gearing Up" machines are pretty pointless since we already saw Yamato summoning her guns out of nowhere

Ernietheracefan
2015-03-19, 02:21
I am so hyped. Glorious noto mamiko carrier

And Humikane's first debut in Kancolle anime

LoweGear
2015-03-19, 02:26
Belated realization that those "Gearing Up" machines are pretty pointless since we already saw Yamato summoning her guns out of nowhere

COOL IS NEVER POINTLESS :cool:

Though why does the anime always see to it that the actual equip itself is cut out, such a tease ;-;

Ithekro
2015-03-19, 03:14
Skipping the magical girl transformation scene give more time to the story. If this was a four cour/year long show, I could see (and might even want to see) them pad the episodes with each girl getting her equipment before heading out. Or at least the new girls.

Yamato's neck piece/bow (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25820883) coming out of the water I image already has a soundtrack for it on Nico. It is bound to given the crossover fanbases (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25821066) when it comes to ships named Yamato.

Tiresias
2015-03-19, 03:22
Oh, I don't have problem with the idea of transformation scene itself. It's just that we saw them have these elaborate gears and stuff that was proven unnecessary in Yamato's episode since she can gear up without them. Kinda baffling really - one moment they're Iron Man, other times they're Heroic Spirits.:heh:

chaosprophet
2015-03-19, 04:15
Knowing Soukaku and Zuikaku are on the way would clearly change things. Three Wo and Airfield Hime verse 1st and 2nd Carrier Divisions is nearly even if Akagi knows the Wos are out there. Adding 5th Carrier (and potentially 4th Carrier) Division changes things entirely even if Akagi sunks. They would still win, which is what Akagi and Kaga want.

If the kakus are coming, then chances are they used buckets on them so they would finish repairing in time. Is the admiral there at Truk?

Qikz
2015-03-19, 05:14
I'm thinking of a situation where Fubuki saves Akagi, but what if Zuikaku's planes shot down the bombs? I know Fubuki is the protag, but that'd be much cooler and those fairies would need some kind of medal for doing that <3

Estavali
2015-03-19, 05:59
Is 'river, river, river' a real message?

It is.

After the first round of attacks on Midway, Lieutenant Tomonaga Joichi, commander of Hiryuu's air unit (and whose squadron those Tomonaga planes in the game are based on), radioed Admiral Nagumo that a second round was needed to put Midway out of action. The message he sent was this "Kawa! Kawa! Kawa!" (カワ・カワ・カワ), which as the episode has explained, is the code for "A 2nd round of attacks is needed". Imho CR should have stuck to Kawa x3 instead of translating it.

On a humorous sidenote, this message is parodied in chapter 16 of the official 4koma. When Houshou asks the carrier girls what they want for yakitori, Hiryuu's answer is also "Kawa! Kawa! Kawa!!", which in this case means "Skin! Skin! Skin!" (皮!かわ!カワ!!). Sadly the English translator didn't catch the joke :heh:

While she doesn't use the quote in-game, one of Hiryuu's attack lines ("Second attack required. Hurry!") is probably inspired by it.

Dere Nagato shows her vulnerable side to Mutsu. <3

It's a rare side of Nagato that I hope would be further explored in the future, by both officials and fandom. Seriously, folks are overdoing the Nagamon thing and it's getting stale.



Also, about the Airfield Princess' appearance here, I read a comment at danbooru that seems so right yet so funny =3:
Compass sent them to Guadalcanal instead of Midway

Ithekro
2015-03-19, 07:25
I guess someone on the deign staff notices that the airfield on Midway at that time was renamed Henderson Field after an officer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lofton_R._Henderson) that was killed leading Marine dive bombers against Hiryu. It was named that following the Battle of Midway. Henderson Field on Guadalcanal was also named after this same person.

If the ideas about Midway Hime being a corrupted Akagi are no just ideas...than Midway Hime is for the next time the shipgirls try to take objective AF...after losing Akagi there.

Benigmatica
2015-03-19, 08:52
Man, if Akagi wants to fight her fate, she should have either wait for reinforcements or brought her escorts on her battle against the Midway Princess!

Sheba
2015-03-19, 08:54
Man, if Akagi wants to fight her fate, she should have either wait for reinforcements or brought her escorts on her battle against the Midway Princess!

She did send Bukki to seek the surface combat fleet and bring them to the main battlefront tho. Splitting the japanese fleet into many more without them being able to support each other have one of the MANY reasons it had gone so wrong for the Japanese.

Marina2
2015-03-19, 08:55
Hmm....

- What cause the delay of Yamato's fleet?

- What is the sealed mission order of AL operation fleet?

the answer to these questions will probably important in the final ep.

Xero8420
2015-03-19, 09:28
I also think she's Taihou.

http://i.imgur.com/Qn4s7Yh.jpg

Even more obvious that is Taihou when someone managed to get pass the sunlight contrast through PhotoShop.

Ah ha... I see what you did there, TTK.
You said that you were tight on resources was actually turned out to be your excuse to test your luck to get Yamato and Taihou through LSC all along, right?

Plot twist: RNG is actually playing a role in the anime too.

Ryuuoh DeltaPlus
2015-03-19, 11:08
I think the reason why the anime staff used Henderson-chan and not Midway Hime for this ep is to avoid controversy with the Western people (especially in Freedomland). The triangular runways of Midway hime will totally cause a backlash, and will result to KC branded as glorifying the IJN.

Sheba
2015-03-19, 11:10
Oh, that already happened. It dont help that some western fans are going "This Wo IS the Lexington! That one IS the Yorktown..." etc, ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Kakurin
2015-03-19, 11:35
I think the reason why the anime staff used Henderson-chan and not Midway Hime for this ep is to avoid controversy with the Western people (especially in Freedomland). The triangular runways of Midway hime will totally cause a backlash, and will result to KC branded as glorifying the IJN.
Don't think that's the reason. Could've chosen Midway Hime's final form:

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140808160944/kancolle/images/b/bf/584.png

And besides, I don't get your issue with the triangular runways, since one accepted map symbol for an airfield is the one on the left:

http://mapserver.maptech.com/mapserver/nautical_symbols/Images/char0284.gif

Nvis
2015-03-19, 12:08
Don't think that's the reason. Could've chosen Midway Hime's final form:

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140808160944/kancolle/images/b/bf/584.png


Best Hime!

Tiresias
2015-03-19, 12:14
Was there supposed to be a picture?

blakstealth
2015-03-19, 12:24
Having never played the game or know much of the characters outside the show, I dunno what you guys are talking about lol.

I will speculate that Akagi's gonna survive this one though. I just feeeel it. Also, who was screaming AKAGI-SAN at the end? Kaga?

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-19, 12:34
Having never played the game or know much of the characters outside the show, I dunno what you guys are talking about lol.

I will speculate that Akagi's gonna survive this one though. I just feeeel it.

There are two kinds of ship construction normal ship construction and large ship construction.
The latter takes higher Amounts of ressources and might as well result in a ship you could have gotten via normal construction too.
The ghist is that ships like Thaiho or Yamato are only available via LSC.

For example:
If you want Nagato from LCS you need at least
1500 Fuel 1500 Ammunition 2000 Steel 1000 Bauxite

While you could as well get her from normal construction for
400F 100A 600S 30B

And there isn't even a gurantee either she or Mutsu will actually be the ones to get constructed.

Personal Experience:
Tried building Yamato got Akagi (300F 30A 400S 300B in normal constr).
Getting Akagi can be considered especially bad luck since you actually get her for free from a quest too.

- Haven't done any LSC ever since, and won't try again any time soon.

Ernietheracefan
2015-03-20, 05:55
I think the reason why the anime staff used Henderson-chan and not Midway Hime for this ep is to avoid controversy with the Western people (especially in Freedomland). The triangular runways of Midway hime will totally cause a backlash, and will result to KC branded as glorifying the IJN.

I'd like to see Western reactions about this.

Sheba
2015-03-20, 06:08
Having never played the game or know much of the characters outside the show, I dunno what you guys are talking about lol.

I will speculate that Akagi's gonna survive this one though. I just feeeel it. Also, who was screaming AKAGI-SAN at the end? Kaga?

I highly doubt Akagi gonna sink. If the director's previous work on a Nanoha series have taught me anything, he prefers to show his characters snatching victory out of the darkest hour and the deepest despair. Things will look grim but it will be not too grim.

novalysis
2015-03-20, 06:19
Then again, Kirisagi sunk....

I think that Akagi is doomed, and it would be used as a further catalyst for Fubuki's growth. Honestly though, Kongo sinking would, I think be even more devastating at this stage for Fubuki than Akagi. Fubuki idolizes Akagi from afar. But Kongo has a far more active role in Fubuki's growth than Akagi ever had, and Fubuki truly knows Kongo on a personal, closer level.

Ithekro
2015-03-20, 07:05
Kirisagi sinking provides the threat that anyone can sink. It is a needed drama element, otherwise the combat would not have been taken as seriously. No threat of death, means there is a loss of tension in the plot when it cames to a war. When dealing with humans in a war zone, you don't have to have a death because we know they are human and can die. We couldn't know that with the shipgirls unless it happened. Up to that point, a damaged ship was a girl with ther clothing torn, broken equipment, and some dirt on her body. This damage was fixed by taking a long (extremely long fo Akagi) bath, and having magical green fluid dumped in for instant repair. There is no threat with just those in place, save for mayby Fubuki getting eaten by an enemy destroyer. Even then, one that was right in front of her, mouth open, waited a second then aimed a cannon out of its mouth, rather than just eat her.

Having Kirisagi sink, and now having a grave stone for her memory, makes it very possible for others to sink. Akagi's dreams also show this, but because this is Fubuki's story, a sinking in the present is what was needed. Someone Fubuki would know, at least a little bit. Someone that would effect her, or someone she cares about, deeply. That was Kirisagi sinking. It opens up the possibility that Fubuki could sink if she isnt' careful, and gives those massive death flags over Akagi a way to actually happen.

But...It doesn't have to happen. That the threat is there means the drama and tension for the cliffhanger has been served. If next week is the last episode if the series, there is no reason that Akagi needs to sink, just the threat and possibility of it happening is enough to drive the plot and move Fubuki forward. If a future series is planned, would Akagi need to be lost here?

Question: Who was designated flagship of Akagi's group? Akagi, right? Or was it Fubuki? Gamers: If Fubuki was flagship, could she take the hit for Akagi? (out even deflect it like Kongo did defending Fubuki?) Rules lawyers: Can Fubuki's new guns take out a falling bomb?

lfhoule
2015-03-20, 07:51
While not a gamer, I can tell you that Akagi is the flagship for the group: after all, it was she that ordered Fubuki and Kongou to stay behind to guide the Main Group to the Carrier Group, and even if Fubuki was the Flag, she's a destroyer with nothing in the way of armor, as opposed to Kongou, a fast battleship. So if Fubuki gets hit with a bomb, she's going to be in a world of hurt, if not follow the same fate as Kisaragi.
Can Fubuki take out a falling bomb? If she's lucky (which, this being anime, anything is possible). But as others have pointed out, we wouldn't / shouldn't be having to answer that kind of question if Fubuki was there in the first place swatting enemy aircraft out of the sky BEFORE they got to drop bombs with her new guns AND Type 94 fire director.

Marina2
2015-03-20, 08:08
In game, there is no way to destroy a bomb or a torpedo after they were launched but since this is anime Fubuki may be able to destroy that bomb before it hits Akagi. Still, we didn't see Fubuki around that area, it gonna be the asspull if she appears from nowhere.

Ithekro
2015-03-20, 08:11
It is possible that Akagi survives. In her dream she was scuttled. The bomb didn't sink her. She had to be torpedoed because the battle was lost and there was no way they could get her home.

With the others coming, it is possible they might win this fight even with the four carriers crippled. If that is the case, than Akagi can be brought home for repairs.


The twisted ending would be a Level One Akagi joining the fleet after Akagi sinks, and seeing Fubuki react to be being Akagi's senior.

Xero8420
2015-03-20, 08:23
In that case, this anime is attempting to pull out a deus ex machina in order to undo the losses in the past, to fight against fate in the current timeline. However, such scenario will not go well with people who are savvy of historical accuracy, to think that the fate of the carrier fleet is inevitable in that point and there's no way saving them.

Anyway, let's just say we imagine this as a Fate series.

Sheba
2015-03-20, 08:30
Well, if people wanted an exact reenactment of the battle of Midway, the movie starring Toshiro Mifune and Charlton Heston is still a good watch.

Top Sergeant
2015-03-20, 08:48
In that case, this anime is attempting to pull out a deus ex machina in order to undo the losses in the past, to fight against fate in the current timeline. However, such scenario will not go well with people who are savvy of historical accuracy, to think that the fate of the carrier fleet is inevitable in that point and there's no way saving them.

Anyway, let's just say we imagine this as a Fate series.

I'm quite savvy with history, and I am hoping Akagi survives.

There isn't any point in slavishly following history in a sci-fi anime like this one.

Besides, they have already deviated from being in lockstep with history, so I don't see the point in all the kerflaffle.

Marcus H.
2015-03-20, 08:58
Nobody, not even the staff, confirmed that they will stick to history.

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-20, 09:09
In addition to that, they also never outright stated that the Abyssals are US Navy ships.
They might take their place in this battle but thats pretty much it.

So no one can really expect any of the Wo to have Enterprise's luck, to survive a dive bomber putting a direct hit on her without any damage at all (the dive bomb was a dud), nor to survive a Kamikaze directly into the forward flight elevator. - Simply because neither of them is Enterprise.

Sheba
2015-03-20, 09:19
I'd suggest you to rephrase your line a bit. You make it sound like it's an undisputable fact that Abyssals are US Navy.

chaosprophet
2015-03-20, 10:01
In game, there is no way to destroy a bomb or a torpedo after they were launched but since this is anime Fubuki may be able to destroy that bomb before it hits Akagi. Still, we didn't see Fubuki around that area, it gonna be the asspull if she appears from nowhere.

I don't think that would be an asspull, with Fubuki remembering how things went wrong last time, it made quite obvious that she was going to help the carriers. Just like with Zuikaku and Shoukaku in an earlier episode.

And for hitting the bomb, we already got someone punching a shell away, also something that isn't really in the game.

Tiresias
2015-03-20, 10:19
Nobody, not even the staff, confirmed that they will stick to history.

I'm surprised people still think it will be. :heh: Jeez, one sunken shipgirl and everybody thinks it's Uro Gen doing a super-gritty accurate historical enactment of the Pacific War.;) What's next, Oppenheimer's Abyssal light? :p

basinz123
2015-03-20, 11:28
I really hope that the Abyssals are are not the US navy so that my dream to see Enterprise-san can be a reality someday....

Sagitta Luminis
2015-03-20, 11:40
If they are going to pull off a YuYuYu I'm going to be massively pissed.

Kakurin
2015-03-20, 11:46
I really hope that the Abyssals are are not the US navy so that my dream to see Enterprise-san can be a reality someday....
They aren't the USN.

James Rye
2015-03-20, 12:25
I'm surprised people still think it will be. :heh: Jeez, one sunken shipgirl and everybody thinks it's Uro Gen doing a super-gritty accurate historical enactment of the Pacific War.;) What's next, Oppenheimer's Abyssal light? :p

I'd like to see Akagi getting sunk, mostly because I would find it cheap if the shipgirls in their final fight against the "hardest boss of the season" and getting surprise attack all survive without a single loss. Wounds you can heal with a bucket or a couple hour long bath don't count as they hold no meaning.
Also Akagi, unlike Kisaragi who we had seen like less than 5 minutes, actually holds a lot of meaning. She is loved and admired by many people. Her death would change those people as they gotta deal with this loss. And if the anime gets a 2nd season and does follow the "sunken shipgirls can become Abyssal ships" theory then sunken Akagi could return in the next season as Midway Hime which would give the enemy a background story and face we could REALLY care for and actually would not want to see sunk by the shipgirls.

So I still hope Akagi, and maybe Kitakami as well so that we see how Kaga and Ooi will deal with the lose of their most important person in their lives, will sink and not because of historical accurat stuff but because that would really bring in some real drama and makes for an interesting ending as the shipgirls would probably win the battle with Yamato coming and blasting the Airfield hime away but a victory with the loss of the pride of the first aircraft carrier divison.

If they are going to pull off a YuYuYu I'm going to be massively pissed.

What's a YuYuYu?

Klashikari
2015-03-20, 12:34
Character death barely holds any meaning if it is done at the end of a season. You don't have any period that let that event to sink (no pun intended) in the audience. In fact, it would just be some forced drama that can't be possibly fixed within a single episode. You are suggesting that we would have to deal with 1) the second half of the battle 2) the conclusion of the battle 3) the conclusion of the admiral's decisions/disappearance 4) the aftermath 5) scene that would make people not pissed off that Fubuki has to deal with Akagi death in not even 10 minutes.

The fact damage can be healed in a flash doesn't mean they weren't on the verge of dying, otherwise you are saying that any sci-fi/fantasy setting that allow healing spells/techniques cheapen every battles. This is preposterous as once it is too late, it is -over- regardless if you have an almighty healing ability or not.
Fubuki almost sunk twice, and the fact we know buckets exist don't change the fact that if it wasn't for certain Kanmusu actions, she would be fish food like Kisaragi. The only reason why Fubuki's struggle isn't as tense as it could be is just because of the MC de facto plot armor, nothing else.

OTOH, Shoukaku and Zuikaku's struggle was way too close for comfort, and I can't see how "easy repair" has anything to do with the near death sequence.

If Akagi sunk around the half of second third of the series, it would at least have a meaning as we would have Fubuki mourning her, then move on. But in the very last episode? No way in frozen hell.

Top Sergeant
2015-03-20, 13:06
Kaga was pretty beat up by the end of last episode. She may also be on the chopping block.

I am still concerned for Akagi, both because of her dreams and her bowstring being broken.

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-20, 13:13
Her death would change those people as they gotta deal with this loss. And if the anime gets a 2nd season and does follow the "sunken shipgirls can become Abyssal ships" theory then sunken Akagi could return in the next season as Midway Hime which would give the enemy a background story and face we could REALLY care for and actually would not want to see sunk by the shipgirls.



Yeah a few things about that:

-) Akagi wouldn't be able to return as Midway Hime, Midway hime is a base (aka Midway island).

-) We don't actually know whether they are sunken ships that somehow fused together, or just one of two parts of the ship girls souls.

Remember - they have at least a slight idea how they ended, yet we have never seen anyone of them complain about it. And Nagato would have all right to QQ, because if it wasn't for high Radiation levels, after the test she wouldn't even have sunk. :heh:


Buckets are also something that can become rather rare during events (as the story hinted), so while they can indeed instantly repair a ship, they are still a valuable ressource, and do not grow on trees.
(obviously its not normal water in either the ship girls bath or the buckets)

lfhoule
2015-03-20, 14:17
Considering the , uhmm..., "other effects" that occur when a bucket is used on a ship girl, it's a good thing that they are in limited quanities, because otherwise, all the girls would be machoists.... and do I hear a freight train coming? ;)

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-20, 14:23
Considering the , uhmm..., "other effects" that occur when a bucket is used on a ship girl, it's a good thing that they are in limited quanities, because otherwise, all the girls would be machoists.... and do I hear a freight train coming? ;)

And that train must be the Tokyo express ;).

Triple_R
2015-03-20, 22:33
I'm not entirely sure if I want any named characters to get sunk next episode (I can see the pros and cons for both sides), but there is one point recently made that I want to address.

Character death barely holds any meaning if it is done at the end of a season.

I disagree with this. I've seen anime character death that happened in the final episode of a season or series, and they sometimes held considerable meaning for me.

A good death scene doesn't always require extensive aftermath. A minimalist approach isn't always best, but it can work sometimes. There's no real need to see Fubuki go on and on and on over a fallen Akagi, if it comes to that. I'm confident that good artistic direction (I'm thinking Shirobako here ;) :heh:) could manage to load so much emotionality into a couple key moments that this could very nicely get across everything that needs to get across.

One of my favorite fan-terms is one that 0utf0xZer0 once coined - "Precision Wham Moment". The key to these moments isn't what comes after it, but rather the moment itself, as well as careful and meticulous buildup to the moment. And we have excellent buildup when it comes to the relationship between Akagi and Fubuki.

Again, this isn't to say that I want Akagi to get sunk. But I do think it's possible to have that happen at the very beginning of next episode, and to execute Fubuki's immediate response to it well enough that it conveys everything that it needs to convey. What's left to be properly shown can probably be handled in a short but poignant funeral scene near the end or the episode, if not at the very end of the episode.

arkhangelsk
2015-03-21, 00:14
Well we'll get a new foreign battleship for the event, so lets wait and see which country it is from. If it is an allied ship others might follow.

Let's face it. If there is a new ship, it is going to be German. Probably Tirpitz, but they might play around with Scharnhorst or Graf Spee (gives more room to be creative with the stats).

I think the game would lose its popularity and close shop before the first American ship is inserted.

Character death barely holds any meaning if it is done at the end of a season. You don't have any period that let that event to sink (no pun intended) in the audience.

I'll disagree. It does change the ways you can use it, but sacrifice at the last minute (which generally coincides with the Boss Fight) is a way to add the value of sacrifice to the struggle.

OTOH, Shoukaku and Zuikaku's struggle was way too close for comfort, and I can't see how "easy repair" has anything to do with the near death sequence.

Frankly, for that one, I'll be more touched if the actual scene did not show them being "pelted" by a mere four fighters that have expended their bombs. I hadn't played KanColle for that long but really, the bullets should have no (significant) effect.

I don't think that would be an asspull, with Fubuki remembering how things went wrong last time, it made quite obvious that she was going to help the carriers. Just like with Zuikaku and Shoukaku in an earlier episode.

And for hitting the bomb, we already got someone punching a shell away, also something that isn't really in the game.

Well, we'll never know. Maybe one of the times when they take 1 damage, that happened.

However, shooting down a bomb would be very plottish and I hope they won't do that. If Akagi survives a bomb, she survives. I'll much prefer that.

Marcus H.
2015-03-21, 00:43
What's the point of Fubuki being assigned as Akagi's escort if Akagi would die anyway? That doesn't make any fucking sense.
If Akagi gets sunk, then all Fubuki had trained and aspired for was all in vain and the story just went one giant leap back.

Klashikari
2015-03-21, 13:54
I disagree with this. I've seen anime character death that happened in the final episode of a season or series, and they sometimes held considerable meaning for me.
As Marcus H. already explained, it won't cut it at all.
Character death thrown for the sake of drama at the very end of a season is already quite contrived, but in Kancolle, it is much worse because Akagi's death would take ages to address: Fubuki's raison d'etre in the base is to serve and escort Akagi. Fubuki already had trouble to deal with her own insecurity THRICE in the show (her initial inability to fight properly, the fact she was "demoted", and her attempt to rush her second remodel), and this took quite some time for her to deal with. Even now, there isn't really anything that could potentially make Fubuki overcome such devastating despair.
Furthermore, the fight is nowhere close to be over, and considering the fleet dispatched for Operation MI, there is no way to deal with Akagi's death AND the ongoing fight unless one of these 2 points is scrapped to offscreen/digest sequence, which is a major issue no matter how you look at it.

And no, using Shirobako's Aerial girls example doesn't work for Kancolle either because the former had only 1 lingering issue, which is Aria's reason for flying.
In kancolle, we still have the Abyssals, the missing Admiral, the whole point of operation FS etc.

If they want to sink someone, Kitakami or any other ship would "do", albeit it will be quite silly since we wouldn't have any impact whatsoever. Killing Akagi right there will just screws the momentum of the series.
-IF- it was done 2 episodes prior the final, I wouldn't complain. But with a single one episode left, I believe there is no way to address every remaining issue within only 20 minutes.

Shadow5YA
2015-03-21, 14:04
I'll disagree. It does change the ways you can use it, but sacrifice at the last minute (which generally coincides with the Boss Fight) is a way to add the value of sacrifice to the struggle.

In shows that do end with a character death, (e.g. Bebop, Psycho-Pass), the show raises death flags throughout the entire season by showing how flawed the character is, or how a certain fight that should be avoided is inevitable.

That's not even close to the tone of this show. Near the beginning we hear the Admiral hyping Fubuki up to be Akagi's escort, capable of turning the tides of battle one day.

Then all of a sudden in one episode we get Akagi having a bad premonition out of nowhere, and the fleet makes changes directly to avoid that premonition. A death flag hastily placed like that call for a compelling death on the final episode.

Ithekro
2015-03-21, 14:27
If Akagi were to sink, her wish would be that Kaga survives. Her sinking on the dream seems to be about not being able to protect Kaga.

However, in following her sinking line, Akagi would be scuttled by torpedoes. And it would be Fubuki's job. That seems like an unreasonable thing to do to the main character when the battle still needs to be finished. If it was done following the battle...well if they won, Akagi doesn't need to be scuttled, they can tow her home, unless they expect a counter attack that would kill more shipgirls if they tow Akagi.

The passing of a mentor does work a lot of the time. Sometimes it is a peaceful death after the mission is won. The victory is had, but the hero will never make it home (or dies after seeing the promised land, never actually reaching it), But Akagi is not Moses or Okita. Nor is she Obi-wan Kenobi. Plus if she was in the Kenobi role, she would have been training Fubuki more than she does. It was mostly the Sendais and Tone training her skills with Kongo teaching her how to handle things.

arkhangelsk
2015-03-21, 14:28
In shows that do end with a character death, (e.g. Bebop, Psycho-Pass), the show raises death flags throughout the entire season by showing how flawed the character is, or how a certain fight that should be avoided is inevitable.

If the latter is the standard, this qualifies! The original concept about Midway (dumb as it was) was to try and hit something the Americans weren't defending. The Americans will rush forward and the Japanese would hit them. Here, they already see that the base is well-defended from actually bothering to reconnoiter it, and they choose to hit it anyway. They could, for example, hit MO which they didn't finish hitting last time, but they don't.

Anyway, my point is that it is not necessarily bad for the character to die in the end. Heck, Sailormoon, one of the most popular anime of all time (they are still making Sailormoon to the present day) had all the Senshi wiped out between Ep45-46 (shrinking to a one-cour that would be the 2nd half of the last episode!), without any of that buildup you suggested.

That's not even close to the tone of this show. Near the beginning we hear the Admiral hyping Fubuki up to be Akagi's escort, capable of turning the tides of battle one day.

Any plan that involves a destroyer saving the day is fundamentally flawed, don't you think?

Then all of a sudden in one episode we get Akagi having a bad premonition out of nowhere, and the fleet makes changes directly to avoid that premonition. A death flag hastily placed like that call for a compelling death on the final episode.

The main problem here is that this anime is overall pretty weak, and the last 3 episodes overall are painful (you might notice I voted for "Painful" up there).

The worst thing about Episode 11, in my book, is how they literally walk to their deaths. If you take what passes for KanColle canon, they do have scrapes of their previous memories, so Akagi getting bad dreams based on the past is actually consistent - it just hadn't been made explicit before. I agree the whole Repeat-History-Fate thing was stuck in at the last minute, way too late really, but never mind. It does string together some past events in retrospect like Shokaku's damage and Kisaragi's death.

What really killed it for me is how they react. They attack the same place. They change the composition by reducing the escort fleet. Oi and Kitakami (a veteran pair that works well together) get split up for ... no reason. 1KB's real CAP was poorly controlled which led to the carrier's demise (after everything they might just have made it otherwise), so this time Akagi doesn't even put up a CAP. She puts her best antiair destroyer and her best battleship to await Yamamoto in a scene. She even fires the planes in two waves though her launching mechanisms have entirely changed.

Given how they are actively walking towards their deaths (they aren't even sleepwalking), I agree that Akagi dying in the last episode won't have a huge emotional impact. Yet, I kind of want it to happen because at this point that's what is utterly deserved.

I don't mind fighting fate themes, even if they are placed at the last minute. I do want to see a real attempt to break from it. Not this. This is just painful.

Klashikari
2015-03-21, 14:45
If the latter is the standard, this qualifies! The original concept about Midway (dumb as it was) was to try and hit something the Americans weren't defending. The Americans will rush forward and the Japanese would hit them. Here, they already see that the base is well-defended from actually bothering to reconnoiter it, and they choose to hit it anyway. They could, for example, hit MO which they didn't finish hitting last time, but they don't.
For the last time: stop bringing real history in there.
The whole premise of Operation MI is completely different in Kancolle compared to the real Battle of Midway.
Operation MI is a sub objective for Operation FS, which is the plan for the admiral to retake control of the sea portion his district was allocated to.

It is nowhere close to Yamamoto's attempt with the actual invasion of Midway back in the Pacific War.

Anyway, my point is that it is not necessarily bad for the character to die in the end. Heck, Sailormoon, one of the most popular anime of all time (they are still making Sailormoon to the present day) had all the Senshi wiped out between Ep45-46 (shrinking to a one-cour that would be the 2nd half of the last episode!), without any of that buildup you suggested.
Comparing that to Sailormoon is completely impertinent. We had so many points about reincarnation and other things that the whole "massacre" wasn't really that shocking considering the direction of the series.

As for Kancolle, we have absolutely nothing that suggest more "copies" of Kanmusu lurking around.
Any plan that involves a destroyer saving the day is fundamentally flawed, don't you think?Actually no. Destroyer can change the tides of battle just because a single action can have a domino effect.
It is even more true for us gamers, since the recent event made certain maps even easier thanks to the AA cut-in and Akizuki's prowess.
What really killed it for me is how they react. They attack the same place. They change the composition by reducing the escort fleet. Oi and Kitakami (a veteran pair that works well together) get split up for ... no reason. 1KB's real CAP was poorly controlled which led to the carrier's demise (after everything they might just have made it otherwise), so this time Akagi doesn't even put up a CAP. She puts her best antiair destroyer and her best battleship to await Yamamoto in a scene. She even fires the planes in two waves though her launching mechanisms have entirely changed.The dream itself doesn't really give any specific in "how to handle what's going on", and the situation called for drastic decisions on the spot.
I don't see how Akagi is supposed to take better decisions when you had irregular events going on like that: it isn't like she expected Yamato's fleet to be stuck somewhere, or Tone unable to launch recon planes etc.

arkhangelsk
2015-03-21, 15:15
For the last time: stop bringing real history in there.
The whole premise of Operation MI is completely different in Kancolle compared to the real Battle of Midway.
Operation MI is a sub objective for Operation FS, which is the plan for the admiral to retake control of the sea portion his district was allocated to.

This can be a bit difficult considering how the show keeps insisting on including historical references. To get away from History though, the anime's Operation FS as known includes more than just MI. At the very least, it included MO which they did not take last time. In fact, given that our Teitoku's fleet has most of the best vessels (the only thing he doesn't seem to have are Ise-class, Fuso-class, light carriers and subs), from an in-universe perspective, he is equivalent to the Combined Fleet commander, and the other naval bases are in charge of mostly auxiliary and guarding forces. That gives his command a very large Area of Responsibility (in Ep4, we know it includes as far West as the Javas).

There is no reason to hit MI now (as of Ep10) that they've discovered it has a strong defense. In fact, given the whole idea of "drawing" the enemy to a fight, they should be hitting something else. But they don't.

Comparing that to Sailormoon is completely impertinent. We had so many points about reincarnation and other things that the whole "massacre" wasn't really that shocking considering the direction of the series.

Reincarnation to you was a warning? I'll admit it wasn't to me. I really do think we have more vibes here than there.

Actually no. Destroyer can change the tides of battle just because a single action can have a domino effect.

It can, but it's not the basis for a plan, especially for admirals who do not have a "Heavy Damage Failsafe". Yes, I know, Akizuki - I've seen that overpowered cut-in in the vids from people who do have her. Maybe she'd drop for me next event (thanks for the advice in the other thread BTW) but in the meantime for one thing Fubuki is still not Akizuki, and the anime does not follow all the rules of the game too.

The dream itself doesn't really give any specific in "how to handle what's going on", and the situation called for drastic decisions on the spot.
I don't see how Akagi is supposed to take better decisions when you had irregular events going on like that: it isn't like she expected Yamato's fleet to be stuck somewhere, or Tone unable to launch recon planes etc.

She is supposedly the most experienced of the kanmusu (remember the legend in Ep 1 about Kaga and her wiping out an Abyssal Fleet?) Rather than taking out several destroyers from her escort, she should have suggested little things like moving to Truk first. That way, they can sortie together with Yamato and this whole coordination problem won't exist.

As for Tone, she may indeed be having trouble with her catapult but it is impossible to see any significant effect because everyone else was launching recon planes. It is one of those cases where a game-line and historical reference was inserted just for the heck of it.

Anyway, now it is too late but she still doesn't have to take the worst decision of leaving behind her AA-destroyer and her best battleship. And she can at least put a CAP up and having decided to engage the Airfield Princess, she should have employed a single wave strike (the double wave is itself another needless historical reference...)

Klashikari
2015-03-21, 15:46
There is no reason to hit MI now (as of Ep10) that they've discovered it has a strong defense. In fact, given the whole idea of "drawing" the enemy to a fight, they should be hitting something else. But they don't.Nagato had to figure the Admiral's plan after the "doolittle raid". It is quite obvious that MI base is the major threat for them, because the Abyssals carrier fleet is roaming around. The shows strongly implied that if they don't take out MI, the Wo-class kai and her fleet will harass them during their sorties.
It can, but it's not the basis for a plan, especially for admirals who do not have a "Heavy Damage Failsafe". Yes, I know, Akizuki - I've seen that overpowered cut-in in the vids from people who do have her. Maybe she'd drop for me next event (thanks for the advice in the other thread BTW) but in the meantime for one thing Fubuki is still not Akizuki, and the anime does not follow all the rules of the game too.Fubuki kai ni, both in the game and anime, has the Anti Aircraft Fire Director, and she is pretty much one of the best DD in term of AA.
If we consider the anime context while ignoring the game, it still makes sense to capitalize on Fubuki because 1) she is a special type destroyer 2) she has the proper gear to deal with AA.
She is supposedly the most experienced of the kanmusu (remember the legend in Ep 1 about Kaga and her wiping out an Abyssal Fleet?) Rather than taking out several destroyers from her escort, she should have suggested little things like moving to Truk first. That way, they can sortie together with Yamato and this whole coordination problem won't exist.
Being an ace doesn't mean they must be the best in term of leadership or judgment when the situation calls for it.

Also, moving to Truk is a bad idea because they are under radio silence and should Yamato's fleet take another route and miss them, Yamato and her escort would be at the mercy of the Wo kai fleet as they don't have any air support.
As for Tone, she may indeed be having trouble with her catapult but it is impossible to see any significant effect because everyone else was launching recon planes. It is one of those cases where a game-line and historical reference was inserted just for the heck of it. Huh? It actually makes even more sense in the anime than in the game: Tone not being able to launch recon planes mean that there IS a blind spot in their recon area, and that blind spot could explain why they didn't realize there was a fleet right behind them.
Anyway, now it is too late but she still doesn't have to take the worst decision of leaving behind her AA-destroyer and her best battleship. And she can at least put a CAP up and having decided to engage the Airfield Princess, she should have employed a single wave strike (the double wave is itself another needless historical reference...)It actually makes sense for her to leave the AA destroyer behind since it is possible for the carriers to fend off enemy aircraft with their own, as long as they weren't taken by surprise like that.
Meanwhile, there is nothing that insure Yamato's fleet safety, should they are caught up by the enemy carrier fleet. Also, leaving Fubuki behind would be pretty much suicide if she were to encounter a small patrol squadron.

One can argue that she could simply leave both Tone and Chikuma with Fubuki, but leaving the latter with Kongou was certainly not a bad decision.

rladls2121
2015-03-21, 16:55
This makes me really confusing that even though they are female humans, but at the same time are battleships.

What is with this females sinking?
These things are not just solders, wait did I say things?
Well, they can cook and eat curry, so at least they are not machines.

Other than sinking, I think it is better to say they are drowning don't you people think so?
I just don't know.

DerGilga
2015-03-21, 17:42
So Midway happened without Midway Hime? I have a hard time believing the anime will end without her showing up. I mean it's in her name. Can the anime end without a proper boss fight? the damaged Wo-Carrier doesn't give be boss unit vibes to me.
Also Akagi trying to fight fate but seemingly failing which causes her to fall into dispair at the end. I get the feeling that the end of this episode was the birth of Midway Hime and next episode Fubuki et al. will have to defeat the corrupted Akagi.

By the way, was this the first time blood was shown?

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-21, 18:32
This makes me really confusing that even though they are female humans, but at the same time are battleships.

What is with this females sinking?
These things are not just solders, wait did I say things?
Well, they can cook and eat curry, so at least they are not machines.

Other than sinking, I think it is better to say they are drowning don't you people think so?
I just don't know.

We don't knoww whether they are spirits, Humans or whatover 'born with the souls of ships' makes humans a good choice though.

Don't ask how they can actually chew on bauxite then though. :heh:

Ithekro
2015-03-21, 19:05
There is a clear difference here than historical. Shimakaze is already active. Taiho is possible now. Fubuki's AA fit is on here. I don't thing any of the AA destroyers were in service until after Midway. Nagato might have something in mind as well. If Yamato's delay is making sure Shoukaku and Zuikaku are ready. Nagato and Mutsu could be bringing Taiho.

There are too many loose threads for outs for the fleet right now. 6th Destroyer Division had orders, and there are two light carriers heading to join them for Operation AI which might be cancelled rather than a decoy, to flank AF.

I still think the Admiral is dead rather than missing.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2015-03-21, 19:28
What's a YuYuYu?I think he's referring to Yuuki Yuuna wa Yuusha de Aru anime.

Eisdrache
2015-03-21, 21:37
This makes me really confusing that even though they are female humans, but at the same time are battleships.

What is with this females sinking?
These things are not just solders, wait did I say things?
Well, they can cook and eat curry, so at least they are not machines.

Other than sinking, I think it is better to say they are drowning don't you people think so?
I just don't know.

The reason why you are confused is because you're trying to apply 3D standards to an anime. Just don't. The setting is that they're the manifestation of the ship's soul or whatever floats your boat. This, and nothing else. If it makes sense within the context of the anime, then it's perfectly fine.

James Rye
2015-03-21, 21:40
Yeah a few things about that:

-) Akagi wouldn't be able to return as Midway Hime, Midway hime is a base (aka Midway island).

-) We don't actually know whether they are sunken ships that somehow fused together, or just one of two parts of the ship girls souls.

Remember - they have at least a slight idea how they ended, yet we have never seen anyone of them complain about it. And Nagato would have all right to QQ, because if it wasn't for high Radiation levels, after the test she wouldn't even have sunk. :heh:

Buckets are also something that can become rather rare during events (as the story hinted), so while they can indeed instantly repair a ship, they are still a valuable ressource, and do not grow on trees.
(obviously its not normal water in either the ship girls bath or the buckets)

Didn't knew that Midayway Hime was a base. Still if the whole shipgirls can become abyssals theory holds true then Akagi might become the Midway Hime after the fleetgirls returned home without her?

What's the point of Fubuki being assigned as Akagi's escort if Akagi would die anyway? That doesn't make any fucking sense.
If Akagi gets sunk, then all Fubuki had trained and aspired for was all in vain and the story just went one giant leap back.

I'd agree with you if it were not for Akagi sending he escort away. If Fubuki had been with Akagi the whole time she surely would have shot down that plane before it could drop its bomb on Akagi.
So it makes sense that despite Fubuki's training and effort she could not protect her admired sempai. Because she was not there to fulfill her duty by the flagship's orders. So I don't see the fault in Fubuki's training and efforts not being enough to protect Akagi and more in the judgement of Akagi who wanted everything so different from her dream that she walked basically blindly into a trap which might get herself and others killed.

This makes me really confusing that even though they are female humans, but at the same time are battleships.

What is with this females sinking?
These things are not just solders, wait did I say things?
Well, they can cook and eat curry, so at least they are not machines.

Other than sinking, I think it is better to say they are drowning don't you people think so?
I just don't know.

The way I see it, the girl drowns while the ship soul/spirit sinks, so basically it is both. They can eat Bauxite which clearly are some kinda rock thingie and I doubt we humans could eat that without upsetting our stomaches. XD
So, no idea what the shipgirls actually are.^^

So Midway happened without Midway Hime? I have a hard time believing the anime will end without her showing up. I mean it's in her name. Can the anime end without a proper boss fight? the damaged Wo-Carrier doesn't give be boss unit vibes to me.
Also Akagi trying to fight fate but seemingly failing which causes her to fall into dispair at the end. I get the feeling that the end of this episode was the birth of Midway Hime and next episode Fubuki et al. will have to defeat the corrupted Akagi.

By the way, was this the first time blood was shown?

Yeah, I was a bit disappointed when we didn't got Midway Hime, I had looked forward for her to show up. It would be interesting to see Akagi take the Airfield Hime's place after the fleetgirls victory albeit with her getting sunk there and then returning as Midway Hime.

Could be the first time we saw blood, yeah. Even Kisaragi didnt seemed to bleed and that was after one killing hit.

I think he's referring to Yuuki Yuuna wa Yuusha de Aru anime.

Thanks, though that alone doesn't exactly tell me what was meant with "pull a YuYuYu". XD

AC-Phoenix
2015-03-21, 21:49
Didn't knew that Midayway Hime was a base. Still if the whole shipgirls can become abyssals theory holds true then Akagi might become the Midway Hime after the fleetgirls returned home without her?

No there is another princess which looks like a fusion of two certain other carriers... She is a carrier though, and not an installment.


The way I see it, the girl drowns while the ship soul/spirit sinks, so basically it is both. They can eat Bauxite which clearly are some kinda rock thingie and I doubt we humans could eat that without upsetting our stomaches. XD
So, no idea what the shipgirls actually are.^^

Before it gets into your stomache into a human stomache it probably breaks a human's theeth first if they try to eat it :heh:


Yeah, I was a bit disappointed when we didn't got Midway Hime, I had looked forward for her to show up. It would be interesting to see Akagi take the Airfield Hime's place after the fleetgirls victory albeit with her getting sunk there and then returning as Midway Hime.


See above.

Ryuuoh DeltaPlus
2015-03-21, 21:53
I really hope that the Abyssals are are not the US navy so that my dream to see Enterprise-san can be a reality someday....

For the love of crap people still believe that Abyssals = USN?

Though they use the English system of measurement for their weapons, there is no definitive proof that they are the Allies at all. And considering the Abyssals have a CLT (which the USN DID NOT have), it;s too far-fetched.

And also, the recent trend of bosses being allusions to the IJN ships themselves weakens that theory further.

Marcus H.
2015-03-21, 21:59
I'd agree with you if it were not for Akagi sending he escort away. If Fubuki had been with Akagi the whole time she surely would have shot down that plane before it could drop its bomb on Akagi.
So it makes sense that despite Fubuki's training and effort she could not protect her admired sempai. Because she was not there to fulfill her duty by the flagship's orders. So I don't see the fault in Fubuki's training and efforts not being enough to protect Akagi and more in the judgement of Akagi who wanted everything so different from her dream that she walked basically blindly into a trap which might get herself and others killed.

And it's not Fubuki's fault. Akagi's decision stemmed from the doubts in her head brought by images of the past. Fubuki shouldn't suffer for that, or rather, Fubuki's moments of suffering must be rewarded with fulfillment.

We're not watching a Gen Urobuchi story, goddammit. Let's rid ourselves of his bullshit.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2015-03-21, 22:09
Thanks, though that alone doesn't exactly tell me what was meant with "pull a YuYuYu". XDTo really understand what he's referring to, I think you'd better watch the series yourself :D. It's a treat.

arkhangelsk
2015-03-21, 22:50
Nagato had to figure the Admiral's plan after the "doolittle raid". It is quite obvious that MI base is the major threat for them, because the Abyssals carrier fleet is roaming around. The shows strongly implied that if they don't take out MI, the Wo-class kai and her fleet will harass them during their sorties.

Yes, the point is to get the carriers (another historical parallel). However, after that, you should think harder as to whether attacking a clearly defended, in fact the best defended base (they said there was the most vigorous response there) is the smartest way of doing so. Especially when even the few real-life points for attacking MI is not here (Yamamoto did not have an easy time pushing MI, mostly because it was so dumb).

If we pretend that MI really is the best choice, the formation needs to be fundamentally rethought, because the real MI formation, dumb as it is, is intended to fight something that will initially be undefended.

Fubuki kai ni, both in the game and anime, has the Anti Aircraft Fire Director, and she is pretty much one of the best DD in term of AA.

Which as I understand it is very far from Akizuki's level. I've actually seen a couple of AACIs without Akizuki (on video). You might be able to draw blood even without AACI, but only with an Akizuki's CI did I ever see the rather ridiculous result of all planes shot down, Strike Neutralized.

If we consider the anime context while ignoring the game, it still makes sense to capitalize on Fubuki because 1) she is a special type destroyer 2) she has the proper gear to deal with AA.

Capitalizing is a great idea. I don't mind the Teitoku's efforts to buff Fubuki. But the entire attempt to say she will change everything is a bit thin. This is one of the limitations of using a destroyer as your protagonist, but the show's makers didn't realize that.

Unlike a magical girl protagonist, which you can ass-pull however much you want, Fubuki is limited by her origins as a destroyer, with a relative mundane record. She isn't even necessarily first of the -bukis - in terms of commissioning date, she's more like 5th.

Also, moving to Truk is a bad idea because they are under radio silence and should Yamato's fleet take another route and miss them, Yamato and her escort would be at the mercy of the Wo kai fleet as they don't have any air support.

Here's what they should have done. They should have forward-deployed to Truk instead of angsting around at base. Then they can launch right with Yamato. They won't have coordination problems with Yamato because they can see her from the very start.

Huh? It actually makes even more sense in the anime than in the game: Tone not being able to launch recon planes mean that there IS a blind spot in their recon area, and that blind spot could explain why they didn't realize there was a fleet right behind them.

Actually, I don't mind them not seeing the enemy fleet - it does happen. Though considering the enemy fleet got close enough for a surface action, here is another place one must say Akagi's new plan actually managed to be a downgrade of a sucky plan - in the original, the destroyer screen deployed as pickets to spot incoming enemies. Akagi removed that screen!

Nevertheless, on screen, such an effect is never established. Further, it makes little sense in a world where launching planes is not an intricate process requiring hours, but a matter of launching an arrow. The moment Tone can't launch, Akagi can decide whether that sector is to be swept and just fire another arrow with next to no delay! That's why parodies can only be taken so far.

It actually makes sense for her to leave the AA destroyer behind since it is possible for the carriers to fend off enemy aircraft with their own, as long as they weren't taken by surprise like that.

That would only be true if they are actually looking around (one of the limitations of using humans as ships is that humans tend to mostly look forward unless specifically tasked especially when they are moving - if something hadn't prompted Yuudachi to glance back, our Abyssals would have gotten a torpedo drop on an unalerted target). And they can fend off enemy aircraft only if they put up a CAP!

BTW, it is never made perfectly clear whether Fubuki is Kai or Kai-2 now - as you know her visual form is a mishmash. However, if she is Kai-2 as the producers probably intended, she is also the holder of an air radar, which is not on the carriers. Kongo Kai-2 also has Type 21 and 22 radars. In short, in one stroke Akagi stripped her fleet of radar! OMG!

Meanwhile, there is nothing that insure Yamato's fleet safety, should they are caught up by the enemy carrier fleet.

That's why perhaps they should just have gone to Truk and sortied with Yamato the day of the operation.

Also, leaving Fubuki behind would be pretty much suicide if she were to encounter a small patrol squadron.

If she encountered a "small patrol squadron", if she concentrates on fleeing and they do not make a three sector attack, she can move at a comparable speed versus the enemy and avoid being engaged. Besides, the correct solution is to merely leave a few planes to spot and guide Yamato as she approaches that rock.

If we insist we must leave ships, and two of them too because we are worried about fighting "small patrol squadrons", then let the stay behinds be Yuudachi and Kitakami. I then would almost want to see the small patrol squadron because it's also a good way to give Yuudachi and Kitakami a moment. One reason this anime is not very good is because ... anime, you must allow everyone a good moment, not just the MC (especially when you picked a Lowest Common Denominator as your MC). The anime actually started off understanding this, but since Ep5 everything is kind of Fubuki, Fubuki, Fubuki, regardless of whether it makes sense.

tarajis
2015-03-22, 04:25
Pan-Paka-Pan!!


Our special type destroyer will surely save her precious sempai... she'll knock that bomb out of the sky and she will receive her precious sempai's and other's gratitude she'll feel so happy she'll... well, considering they're out in the sea then everyone's already wet I guess... :heh:

Fubuki will come and she's coming not with the Main Fleet but with the Mean Fleet... ohhh, there's going to be abyssal bullying next episode... Yamato's coming with a possible 3 carries in tow... Nachi's order might be to turn around and head to MI after some time to help with the operation... Nagato and Mutsu might arrive with an additional fleet... it's the last episode so we need to at least see Nagato and Mutsu in action... :D

There's no repeating of tragedy nano desu... :heh:

Klashikari
2015-03-22, 05:21
If we pretend that MI really is the best choice, the formation needs to be fundamentally rethought, because the real MI formation, dumb as it is, is intended to fight something that will initially be undefended.And I don't see how the formation should have been reworked considering it is the best they can have from what we have seen thus far in the series: they intended to deploy Shoukaku and Zuikaku as well, but repairs wouldn't make in time, although both still joined Yamato anyway.Which as I understand it is very far from Akizuki's level. I've actually seen a couple of AACIs without Akizuki (on video). You might be able to draw blood even without AACI, but only with an Akizuki's CI did I ever see the rather ridiculous result of all planes shot down, Strike Neutralized.Please don't use videos whatsoever. Akizuki might be the best AA CI destroyer, but other DD around 60-70 AA can wreck enemy planes. Even when they rarely destroy all of them, Fubuki, Hatsushimo and Shigure destroy so many planes that even a Wo class kai has trouble to severely damage anyone that isn't a destroyer.Capitalizing is a great idea. I don't mind the Teitoku's efforts to buff Fubuki. But the entire attempt to say she will change everything is a bit thin. This is one of the limitations of using a destroyer as your protagonist, but the show's makers didn't realize that.I don't see how the show stated she is the "decisive factor". Instead, the admiral stated to Nagato she will be necessary for the upcoming operations, as in her contributions will balanced out the odds. Which means that if it wasn't for the other kanmusu, Fubuki wouldn't really change things like that.
It is pretty similar in the game: the last event didn't require specifically a DD, but a AA DD could completely turn the tables. That said, if you didn't deploy the usual strike force to deal with the thoughest abyssals, it is plainly useless.
Here's what they should have done. They should have forward-deployed to Truk instead of angsting around at base. Then they can launch right with Yamato. They won't have coordination problems with Yamato because they can see her from the very start.They just can't:
1) it took them only a day after Fubuki got her second remodel to prepare the fleet along with the other naval district.
2) Deploying the whole fleet at once would be quite problematic because their movements would be even more obviously spotted if such large fleet were to be on the move on the same sector.Actually, I don't mind them not seeing the enemy fleet - it does happen. Though considering the enemy fleet got close enough for a surface action, here is another place one must say Akagi's new plan actually managed to be a downgrade of a sucky plan - in the original, the destroyer screen deployed as pickets to spot incoming enemies. Akagi removed that screen!There was no way for her to leave ships behind without any DD. Denying DD for the ships left behind would mean they have absolutely nothing regarding the screen.
Note that Yuudachi was behind them, effectively serving as a screen for the rear.
Nevertheless, on screen, such an effect is never established. Further, it makes little sense in a world where launching planes is not an intricate process requiring hours, but a matter of launching an arrow. The moment Tone can't launch, Akagi can decide whether that sector is to be swept and just fire another arrow with next to no delay! That's why parodies can only be taken so far.Launching planes faster doesn't mean she can spam it. Akagi definitely has a certain number of planes at her disposal, which is why she was still thinking whether or not she had to deploy a second wave of bombers.
As portrayed in the anime thus far, recon can't cover a wide area in a flash, and it is even worse due to the weather. So no, I don't see how Akagi could recall any carrier scout back to launch it immediately where Tone's recon plane should have been sent.BTW, it is never made perfectly clear whether Fubuki is Kai or Kai-2 now - as you know her visual form is a mishmash. However, if she is Kai-2 as the producers probably intended, she is also the holder of an air radar, which is not on the carriers. Kongo Kai-2 also has Type 21 and 22 radars. In short, in one stroke Akagi stripped her fleet of radar! OMG!I don't see the issue since Hiei is still there, and has de facto a radar equipped considering Kirishima, Mogami and Yamato used the radar of their own design despite they "don't have a radar equipment, game wise". The show has demonstrated already that they don't follow the game logic completely, and that every ships have their usual capability.
You are using the game details for very picky arguments, despite it has no relevancy here.If we insist we must leave ships, and two of them too because we are worried about fighting "small patrol squadrons", then let the stay behinds be Yuudachi and Kitakami. I then would almost want to see the small patrol squadron because it's also a good way to give Yuudachi and Kitakami a moment. One reason this anime is not very good is because ... anime, you must allow everyone a good moment, not just the MC (especially when you picked a Lowest Common Denominator as your MC). The anime actually started off understanding this, but since Ep5 everything is kind of Fubuki, Fubuki, Fubuki, regardless of whether it makes sense.Kitakami also serve as a screen, even though she is a much thougher attacker than your usual CL. So no, it makes more sense to leave Kongou behind since they already have Hiei and the plan was to use the carrier advantage, so no point in capitalizing on battleships, whereas they need screen anyway.

And while I won't deny they could make use of more actions scenes for Yuudachi and the likes, you aren't making any sence whatsoever here. An anime does not have to spread the focus on every protagonist whatsoever, and Kancolle early episodes made it clear the series is about Fubuki's potential and growth. By no means it is supposed to be a showdown of the most popular Kanmusu in the franchise, and these still had their lot of action in there (mostly Kongou, Kitakami/Ooi, Zuikaku, Sendai sisters, and Yamato to some extent)
Hell, Fubuki only had 4 "good moments" so far: protecting Mutsuki in ep3, Taking command of the Mobile Fleet in ep5, saving Zuikaku and Shoukaku in ep7, her "training" with Akagi and Kaga in ep10.
Really, that's not really a lot for a series that focuses a lot on its main character, and the aforementioned kanmusu managed to get their time to shine.

risingstar3110
2015-03-22, 07:14
Long story short. If i'm not wrong, the theme of the anime is clear: the Admirals (or Kancolle players, also the main audience of the shows) will be the one to dictate the fate.
I can't guess if the Admiral disappearance was on purpose or was raised out of circumstances. But put yourself in his shoe, and it's obvious that the best way for him to revert the circumstance, is allow them to run their course , then intervene the last moment. This of course also work in the context that his communication code was broken, and he want to use it in his advantage


The plan obviously was to fake the kanmusu's own plan: diversion attack to AL, while main fleet striking MI. But as it's seen, the MI force may actually be the the diversion instead to lure out the enemies, while the AL force return (with Ooi) along with Yamato, the Cranes sisters, and Taihou (and Nagato+Mutsu, maybe) to deal the blow. His biggest mistake was probably due to Akagi being fairly sharp with her PTSD, and instead of following his exact order, tried to prove things herself: attacked too soon, and leave Fubuki behind. As she will need a Kai Fubuki to protect her while the real main fleet (with Yamato+Taihou) approach to encircle the Abyss force.

I don't think anyone will sink next episode. As they already set up the pairing. Akagi will be saved by Fubuki and her new AA Fire Detector. Kaga will be assisted by Zuikaku to return her favour (Zuikaga!!!). And Ooi will jump in to rescue KTKM. Hei obviously will have her Kongou oneesama of course.

When you think about it, the anime could actually act as a massive prequel for the game. As in "look at how these ship girls are doomed to their fate when leave alone", unless you, the commander can come in to control and revert their fate.

Sheba
2015-03-22, 07:24
What if the sealed orders hold by Nachi was to actually join up with the main force at MI?

risingstar3110
2015-03-22, 07:29
What if the sealed orders hold by Nachi was to actually join up with the main force at MI?
I also have doubt at first, but considering Ooi was in that fleet. It's almost certain that she will come back to save KTKM.

JokerD
2015-03-22, 08:11
Well I don't see Fubuki scuttling Akagi, she seems the type to carry her all the way back to base if it comes down to it. I wonder if Fubuki being in the fleet is the admiral's way of changing their fate...

They should have loaded Hiei with type-3 shells since they knew they were headed for anti-air combat...

What if the sealed orders hold by Nachi was to actually join up with the main force at MI?

Haha, that's what I thought too...

Xero8420
2015-03-22, 08:57
Long story short. If i'm not wrong, the theme of the anime is clear: the Admirals (or Kancolle players, also the main audience of the shows) will be the one to dictate the fate.
I can't guess if the Admiral disappearance was on purpose or was raised out of circumstances. But put yourself in his shoe, and it's obvious that the best way for him to revert the circumstance, is allow them to run their course , then intervene the last moment. This of course also work in the context that his communication code was broken, and he want to use it in his advantage


The plan obviously was to fake the kanmusu's own plan: diversion attack to AL, while main fleet striking MI. But as it's seen, the MI force may actually be the the diversion instead to lure out the enemies, while the AL force return (with Ooi) along with Yamato, the Cranes sisters, and Taihou (and Nagato+Mutsu, maybe) to deal the blow. His biggest mistake was probably due to Akagi being fairly sharp with her PTSD, and instead of following his exact order, tried to prove things herself: attacked too soon, and leave Fubuki behind. As she will need a Kai Fubuki to protect her while the real main fleet (with Yamato+Taihou) approach to encircle the Abyss force.

I don't think anyone will sink next episode. As they already set up the pairing. Akagi will be saved by Fubuki and her new AA Fire Detector. Kaga will be assisted by Zuikaku to return her favour (Zuikaga!!!). And Ooi will jump in to rescue KTKM. Hei obviously will have her Kongou oneesama of course.

When you think about it, the anime could actually act as a massive prequel for the game. As in "look at how these ship girls are doomed to their fate when leave alone", unless you, the commander can come in to control and revert their fate.

This pretty much consolidate my point of view.

Well then this ultimately shots down the perception of the admiral being "sh!ty" and the perception of "Fubuki wasn't supposed to be a MC" in a way of "which one is deserving and which one is not". It's like giving a slap on their faces, along with their preconceptions on this series.

Marina2
2015-03-22, 10:52
I also think that the sealed order is the real master plan that will turn the situation around. Both Kuma and Tama appear in OP but they haven't done anything untill now ,so they have to do something. I also hope to see Akatsuki sisters do something nice in battle.


I don't think anyone will sink next episode. As they already set up the pairing. Akagi will be saved by Fubuki and her new AA Fire Detector. Kaga will be assisted by Zuikaku to return her favour (Zuikaga!!!). And Ooi will jump in to rescue KTKM. Hei obviously will have her Kongou oneesama of course.


I thought AA is designed to shot down enemy plane NOT the falling bomb. :eyespin:

chaosprophet
2015-03-22, 11:10
I thought AA is designed to shot down enemy plane NOT the falling bomb. :eyespin:

And armor is supposed to withstand an enemy shell, and not punch it away. In any case, that isn't too far fetched considering the bombs here is almost the size of the enemy planes themselves. In real world bombs are much smaller than planes so hitting one would be way more difficulty than hitting a plane.

Ithekro
2015-03-22, 11:20
Going by the dream, the bomb doesn't sink Akagi. (it will hurt a lot though).

risingstar3110
2015-03-22, 12:37
I thought AA is designed to shot down enemy plane NOT the falling bomb. :eyespin:
Normally that will be the case. But if shooting down planes were Fubuki's pre-remodeled training. I guess her real act of heroes have to be more difficult than that. So yeah: bombs

It also will going full circle. remember how Akagi saved Fubuki in ep 1 right before she was "rammed" (or eaten) by the Abyssal destroyers? Will make sense if Fubuki gonna save Akagi the same way

arkhangelsk
2015-03-22, 12:41
And I don't see how the formation should have been reworked considering it is the best they can have from what we have seen thus far in the series:

While it may be hard to think of the absolute best formation, it is not hard to come up with a better one. Based on the original anime plan, they can use up to 33 vessels and 12 vessels per "squadron" (we'd pretend that's the limit).

What they then should have done is to make the formation not loosely based on the failed Midway plan, but like this (sortieing from Truk)
1) Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku (I get to these two next section), Kongo, Hiei, Kirishima, Haruna, Fubuki, Yuudachi

2) Yamato, Nagato (you are not doing any good back there, Nagato), Mutsu, Atago, Takao, Myoko, Nachi, Ashigara, Haguro, three destroyers. (I'm pretending Ise, Hyuga, Fuso and Yamashiro don't exist because we didn't see them).

3) Mogami and Mikuma, Ryujo, Tone, Chikuma, Oi and Kitakami, remaining slots with destroyers or light cruisers.

Basically, you use these in a similar fashion to what they actually did in Ep1 - the 3rd to scout and screen, the 2nd for surface action and at the back 1st to bomb and provide air cover. And they should all be in contact before entering the enemy zone, not afterwards.

they intended to deploy Shoukaku and Zuikaku as well, but repairs wouldn't make in time, although both still joined Yamato anyway.

CarDiv 5 really is a plot hole that does the anime no credit. Yes, Shokaku was damaged. She took a bath in Episode 8 and looked fine and dandy coming out of it. Again it is the show taking a historical parody too far, this time not even acknowledging what they had already written. At the very least they could have tried a lame dodge such as "Oh we couldn't replace the expended arrows" which at least won't contradict what they've already drawn. They used "repair", leaving us with zero maneuvering room.

I also find it absolutely stunning that even if I accept this premise, the idea of postponing the operation does not enter anyone's mind, especially those who feel they are trapped by fate.

As for how they joined Yamato anyway, I guess I can give the teitoku some credit, but again it does Nagato and Akagi pretty poor credit. Now they can't even have a firm grasp of the state of their subordinates, which is not cool!

Instead, the admiral stated to Nagato she will be necessary for the upcoming operations, as in her contributions will balanced out the odds. Which means that if it wasn't for the other kanmusu, Fubuki wouldn't really change things like that.

That's not very different from my basic point, which is to say that it was a real pull plotwise or planwise to say a destroyer will have that much effect. It'll only be even more absurd if she can determine the fate of the war by herself alone, but as it is, it is pretty bad.

They just can't:
1) it took them only a day after Fubuki got her second remodel to prepare the fleet along with the other naval district.

It isn't clear it was only one day, but if we insist it was, do remember that as far as anyone can see, it also takes well less than a day to move to Truk or to Midway for that matter (all distances are compressed in this anime compared to RL). They can just decide who's going in the morning, arrive in the afternoon, get a good night's sleep, and head north the day of the operation.

As for your other point, in certain official works, they do try to fudge up an excuse for the 6-ship limit by saying if they are even one ship over, suddenly they for no reason at all they are much more detectable. But it does not seem to be the case here, and multi-sixpack operations have been done before in this show (all launching within minutes from the same base) so it doesn't seem to count here.

Note that Yuudachi was behind them, effectively serving as a screen for the rear.

That you are at the formation's back does not equate a screen. A screen is a dispersed formation, generally composed of light units, that you deploy at a distance from your main formation - either across its front, semicircle in front or circular. Its biggest purpose is to buy the main force warning time. In the case of a kanmusu, this is actually relatively easy because the launch speed is so fast - buying two minutes can allow for a scramble. But no. There is no screen. Because Akagi has decided her response to seeing Maikaze in her dream is to dump Maikaze's division from her formation. Uh...

Actually, they did kind of do the screening concept correctly, in Ep9! I've seen people ask where the heck Soryu and Hiryu were. The answer is that they were following Mogami, Mutsuki and Fubuki, but screens sometimes are placed so far out to provide early warning that it is out of sight of the main formation.

Launching planes faster doesn't mean she can spam it. Akagi definitely has a certain number of planes at her disposal, which is why she was still thinking whether or not she had to deploy a second wave of bombers.

There are only three valid reasons for a half-strike:
1) You are sure half would be enough with confidence - if it doesn't you'd be surprised. However, it seems nobody was very surprised, which is as it should be, because as veteran carriers they should have mental models of what kind of bomb counts are required to destroy targets.
2) You don't think half would be enough, but you need to reserve planes to deal with other threats, so you'll settle for neutralization or even harassment. That's OK, but then Akagi definitely launched too fast (and she should have deployed a screen, so she might have time to shoot off torpedo bombers against ships that suddenly show up).
3) You don't think half would be enough and you don't feel there will be other threats, but a full strike will take so long to pump out that your leading planes will lose significant radius. This is the real life reason, but it doesn't apply here.

As portrayed in the anime thus far, recon can't cover a wide area in a flash, and it is even worse due to the weather. So no, I don't see how Akagi could recall any carrier scout back to launch it immediately where Tone's recon plane should have been sent.

I didn't say she should recall scouts. I said as soon as Tone can't launch, she should decide whether that sector is needed, and if yes, she should take a new Type 97 arrow and fire it.

I don't see the issue since Hiei is still there, and has de facto a radar equipped considering Kirishima, Mogami and Yamato used the radar of their own design despite they "don't have a radar equipment, game wise". The show has demonstrated already that they don't follow the game logic completely, and that every ships have their usual capability.

I'm not entirely following the game here either. However, in addition to the game (that forms the anime's basis), the anime never previously showed Hiei as one with radar (only Kirishima). By the way, the real Hiei died before she got radar.

Hiei doesn't act like she has radar in Ep11 when it would have helped (she should then have sensed the enemy planes before Yuudachi).

I think it is reasonable to conclude she does not have radar (and neither does Tone nor Chikuma, though they did get radars eventually in the real world) in the anime.

So no, it makes more sense to leave Kongou behind since they already have Hiei and the plan was to use the carrier advantage, so no point in capitalizing on battleships, whereas they need screen anyway.

You can't really form a screen with one ship anyway. And Kongo, as a battleship, is overall more useful than Kitakami as an escort for Akagi. You can use real stats or you can use game stats, but Kongo has much more firepower and resillence.

Hell, Fubuki only had 4 "good moments" so far: protecting Mutsuki in ep3, Taking command of the Mobile Fleet in ep5, saving Zuikaku and Shoukaku in ep7, her "training" with Akagi and Kaga in ep10.

The last one actually caused Fubuki's stock to drop in my heart, but anyway 4 good moments for the protagonist is not bad for a one-cour. I don't begrudge giving Fubuki 4 moments, but even in a one-cour one can find time to give good moments (which is a bit more than just them working) to the protagonist's friends, and this isn't happening since Ep4 or so.

chaosprophet
2015-03-22, 13:32
It also will going full circle. remember how Akagi saved Fubuki in ep 1 right before she was "rammed" (or eaten) by the Abyssal destroyers? Will make sense if Fubuki gonna save Akagi the same way
That's something I've forgotten. I agree with you that would be nice if it comes full circle with Fubuki saving Akagi's life on the last episode like she did with Fubuki's in the first one.

Estavali
2015-03-22, 13:36
Talking about coming to full circles, it would be ironic if Akagi was to be killed the same way she took out the Anchorage Princess, death by dropped bomb :heh:

Klashikari
2015-03-22, 14:09
What they then should have done is to make the formation not loosely based on the failed Midway plan, but like this (sortieing from Truk)

Basically, you use these in a similar fashion to what they actually did in Ep1 - the 3rd to scout and screen, the 2nd for surface action and at the back 1st to bomb and provide air cover. And they should all be in contact before entering the enemy zone, not afterwards.
You are just making a formation that take into account the real Midway fiasco, whereas it isn't exactly possible for Akagi to figure that the AL fleet was completely useless.

Regarding Nagato, we have to consider the context of the chain of command here, and having no one taking the control from the HQ is not exactly the best course of action, especially if the defense of the base is also necessary.
CarDiv 5 really is a plot hole that does the anime no credit. Yes, Shokaku was damaged. She took a bath in Episode 8 and looked fine and dandy coming out of it. Again it is the show taking a historical parody too far, this time not even acknowledging what they had already written. At the very least they could have tried a lame dodge such as "Oh we couldn't replace the expended arrows" which at least won't contradict what they've already drawn. They used "repair", leaving us with zero maneuvering room.They mentioned repair and fatigue before, and repair doesn't always refer to the ship but also planes. Also, the show doesn't imply a kanmusu is STUCK in the bath and can't get out of there during the repair.
I also find it absolutely stunning that even if I accept this premise, the idea of postponing the operation does not enter anyone's mind, especially those who feel they are trapped by fate.Postponing the operation has no immediate benefits whatsoever. They have been directly attacked out of nowhere, and leaving the abyssals force intact for too long will be too dangerous, especially if they decide to make a direct assault on truk.
That's not very different from my basic point, which is to say that it was a real pull plotwise or planwise to say a destroyer will have that much effect. It'll only be even more absurd if she can determine the fate of the war by herself alone, but as it is, it is pretty bad.And I never stated she will. The series pretty much impled her contribution would help in their favor. I don't see how it is difficult to consider that a AA destroyer can be an "enabler" for other ships to succeed in an operation. it isn't like the destroyer can be jesus on its own.
It isn't clear it was only one day, but if we insist it was, do remember that as far as anyone can see, it also takes well less than a day to move to Truk or to Midway for that matter (all distances are compressed in this anime compared to RL). They can just decide who's going in the morning, arrive in the afternoon, get a good night's sleep, and head north the day of the operation.
The abyssals already know about truk considering planes have been intercepted by Yamato back then. Suffice to say, if they were to spot a large fleet arriving to truk, it doesn't take a genius to realize that a huge force will come out from there.

If the whole fleet is stationed at Truk, it would make their plan even more obvious considering Truk is an advance base to begin with.
Since Nagato figured out their codes have been breached, I don't particularly see any issue to make further manoeuvres to avoid ambush and the likes.
As for your other point, in certain official works, they do try to fudge up an excuse for the 6-ship limit by saying if they are even one ship over, suddenly they for no reason at all they are much more detectable. But it does not seem to be the case here, and multi-sixpack operations have been done before in this show (all launching within minutes from the same base) so it doesn't seem to count here.There is a major difference here: the previous operations were done within the area for immediate response.
We are talking about a large fleet that has to take down a fortified base that has a carrier fleet among its defense.
I didn't say she should recall scouts. I said as soon as Tone can't launch, she should decide whether that sector is needed, and if yes, she should take a new Type 97 arrow and fire it.How does she take a "new type 97 arrow" if her scouts are deployed? Again, I don't see how she can do that unless she recall a recon plane for that. Using a bomber or fighter for this task is not exactly the most optimal here.
You can't really form a screen with one ship anyway. And Kongo, as a battleship, is overall more useful than Kitakami as an escort for Akagi. You can use real stats or you can use game stats, but Kongo has much more firepower and resillence.Kongou doesn't have as much mobility as Kitakami, and frankly, I seriously doubt she would change anything in such situation when the premise was to attack a base from afar.

While Akagi didn't make the best decision by not having a fully operational screen with her, the spur of moment and the situation at hand called for an immediate decision instead of expecting things would be better "later on".
The last one actually caused Fubuki's stock to drop in my heart, but anyway 4 good moments for the protagonist is not bad for a one-cour. I don't begrudge giving Fubuki 4 moments, but even in a one-cour one can find time to give good moments (which is a bit more than just them working) to the protagonist's friends, and this isn't happening since Ep4 or so.The whole point is not to spread the focus on too many ships, and frankly, I don't see how the series is making a disservice to the other kanmusu, save perhaps what happened to Yuudachi's second remodel.
Past that, the series direction made sure it was all about Fubuki, while other characters still contribute in there. if you were to remove them, Fubuki would be pretty much a sitting duck in most situations.

Kakurin
2015-03-22, 16:12
Yes, Shokaku was damaged. She took a bath in Episode 8 and looked fine and dandy coming out of it.
Akagi looked fine and dandy when she was in the bath with more than 15 hours still left. As Klashikari's said, nowhere does the anime say that you can't take a break. Considering the situation of episode 8 it's actually most likely that Shōkaku took a break to get dinner. Akagi took a torpedo and was far longer than 15 hours in the bath. Shōkaku got at least chūha'd, which in all likelihood is at least in the same ballpark, if not more. Her repairs won't be finished by the time she got out of the bath in the evening considering they just arrived not long ago.

That you are at the formation's back does not equate a screen. A screen is a dispersed formation, generally composed of light units, that you deploy at a distance from your main formation - either across its front, semicircle in front or circular. Its biggest purpose is to buy the main force warning time.

In reality that is. When was the last time anybody bothered with that in Kancolle? They are always steaming in close rows there. Besides, neither in the game nor in the anime are there enough escort vessels to form a real life screen anyway.

You can't really form a screen with one ship anyway.
Again you are applying real world logic to Kancolle - which isn't exactly appropriate.

The last one actually caused Fubuki's stock to drop in my heart, but anyway 4 good moments for the protagonist is not bad for a one-cour. I don't begrudge giving Fubuki 4 moments, but even in a one-cour one can find time to give good moments (which is a bit more than just them working) to the protagonist's friends, and this isn't happening since Ep4 or so.
Just going by memory I recount a "good moment" for Zuikaku with her determination to save Shōkaku at all costs in episode 7. Mutsuki had a "good moment" hammering some sense into Fubuki after the latter nearly got sank in episode 10. Just to name two. Honestly, this sounds more like frustration with Fubuki being the main character than actual gripes with the "good moments" count.

Triple_R
2015-03-22, 20:53
As Marcus H. already explained, it won't cut it at all.
Character death thrown for the sake of drama...

Why does it have to be "for the sake of drama"?

What about "for the sake of realism" or "for the sake of believability"?

Honestly, that would be the main pro to a named protagonist getting sunk in the final episode.

This is a major and hard-fought military battle in a larger war. One could argue that, realistically-speaking, this should result in some deaths on both sides.

This isn't about Gen Urobuchi-esque and Murphy's Law-reinforcing death and despair. This is just about portraying serious military combat in a normal and realistic way.

Yes, it's nice if characters you like survive to the end and get a good ending. That's the pro to nobody dying. I might like that ending more, but I'd probably respect it less. Having a fleet girl or two get killed is frankly the ballsier move, in my view, and it would also reflect the realities of war a bit more honestly and sincerely (and like it or not, warfare is a huge part of this narrative).

If one or more of the fleet girls gets sunk, does it have to be Akagi? No, but here is where drama would (also) come in. Akagi dying would have more of an impact than most fleet girls dying would. If you can get drama *and* realism both in the same shot, I can see the appeal there.


Character death thrown for the sake of drama at the very end of a season is already quite contrived,

You honestly think that would be more contrived than every protagonist miraculously surviving a major battle?


but in Kancolle, it is much worse because Akagi's death would take ages to address: Fubuki's raison d'etre in the base is to serve and escort Akagi.

I think that's overstating it a fair bit. Akagi is Fubuki's most important person, but it's not like Fubuki hasn't made other close and important friendships. The final episode could easily go back to those other close and important friendships (such as Fubuki's friendship with Mutuski) as a big part of the reason why Fubuki can find renewed hope and strength and reason to fight on, even if Akagi was to get sunk. Heck, I can even imagine an impassioned Mutusuki saying to Fubuki, "Losing Kisaragi was incredibly painful and I'll never forget her, but you helped me through that. Now I'm going to help you when you face the same sort of horrible situation yourself, Fubuki!"

Marcus H.
2015-03-22, 22:01
I think that's overstating it a fair bit. Akagi is Fubuki's most important person, but it's not like Fubuki hasn't made other close and important friendships. The final episode could easily go back to those other close and important friendships (such as Fubuki's friendship with Mutuski) as a big part of the reason why Fubuki can find renewed hope and strength and reason to fight on, even if Akagi was to get sunk. Heck, I can even imagine an impassioned Mutusuki saying to Fubuki, "Losing Kisaragi was incredibly painful and I'll never forget her, but you helped me through that. Now I'm going to help you when you face the same sort of horrible situation yourself, Fubuki!"

Going for realism then, Fubuki would be made responsible for failing her duties as escort ship and may never be allowed to become an escort ship. That blotch on her record may also destroy her reputation as a flagship. How's that then?

risingstar3110
2015-03-23, 01:51
Why does it have to be "for the sake of drama"?

What about "for the sake of realism" or "for the sake of believability"?

Honestly, that would be the main pro to a named protagonist getting sunk in the final episode.

This is a major and hard-fought military battle in a larger war. One could argue that, realistically-speaking, this should result in some deaths on both sides.

This isn't about Gen Urobuchi-esque and Murphy's Law-reinforcing death and despair. This is just about portraying serious military combat in a normal and realistic way.
I don't think the anime tone set for it to be realistic.

You want a war-like, realistic anime, the set tone has to be much darker and much more gritty. An example is this dj

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/risingstar3110/th_e7eb9647b6696859d2f09478612bed44_zpsggfvuzrf.pn g (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/risingstar3110/media/e7eb9647b6696859d2f09478612bed44_zpsggfvuzrf.png.h tml)http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/risingstar3110/th_f8b38757c2e8a7e1c42f0d57ea31cfa3_zpssdcbtn2v.pn g (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/risingstar3110/media/f8b38757c2e8a7e1c42f0d57ea31cfa3_zpssdcbtn2v.png.h tml)http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/risingstar3110/th_cac4c97597071693f877d5e408a02de4_zpsj8k66tog.pn g (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/risingstar3110/media/cac4c97597071693f877d5e408a02de4_zpsj8k66tog.png.h tml)

If the anime set in clearly such a dark and serious tone, and you tell me that some the girls will die in the next minutes for realism. Then yes, it's believable. But as current, the only reason for someone to die , is to build up tragic moment

arkhangelsk
2015-03-23, 08:35
whereas it isn't exactly possible for Akagi to figure that the AL fleet was completely useless.

A decoy fleet is not going to be useful if it hits the enemy at about the same time as the main fleet! Besides, we might not want to see what happens if the decoy fleet actually worked, because then they'll hammer the tiny decoy fleet with 3 Wo-class carriers.

Regarding Nagato, we have to consider the context of the chain of command here, and having no one taking the control from the HQ is not exactly the best course of action, especially if the defense of the base is also necessary.

We are talking about the big action of the IJN kanmusu. Now is not the time to hold back. Let Ooyodo control the people that are still here.

They mentioned repair and fatigue before, and repair doesn't always refer to the ship but also planes. Also, the show doesn't imply a kanmusu is STUCK in the bath and can't get out of there during the repair.

Ep8 at the 8:15-8:20 mark actually explicitly mentions that they had finished their 入渠. Further, if we have to resort to pulling out abilities we've never seen in any other media, why don't we just admit there is a plot hole? Kaga did not learn to fold rabbits because she can get out of the bath whenever she needs to get a new manga or whatever she reads.

Postponing the operation has no immediate benefits whatsoever.

50% more aircraft and carriers is "no immediate benefits whatsoever"?

The abyssals already know about truk considering planes have been intercepted by Yamato back then. Suffice to say, if they were to spot a large fleet arriving to truk, it doesn't take a genius to realize that a huge force will come out from there.

Well, they'd have to spot them first, and if that's so, what can the Abyssals do about it? They can 1 - Attack Truk, presumably with carriers. In which case we can have the battle at more favorable odds than attacking the enemy's base. 2 - They can try to raid the homebase again which we've seen can be easily repaired. 3 - Defend their own base.

(Besides, such concerns did not stop them from assembling in Truk for MO)

I don't particularly see any issue to make further manoeuvres to avoid ambush and the likes.

Such attempts at "cleverness" and deception has caused the IJN's defeat at MIdway. Again, our theme here is to fight the fate of Midway.

We are talking about a large fleet that has to take down a fortified base that has a carrier fleet among its defense.

The principles of the assault do not change such that the correct solution is to use two difficult to join up fleets with the carrier fleet leading.

How does she take a "new type 97 arrow" if her scouts are deployed? Again, I don't see how she can do that unless she recall a recon plane for that. Using a bomber or fighter for this task is not exactly the most optimal here.

Japanese carriers use Type 97 aircraft for both attack and scouting. In real life, in anime, and in the game. She just takes one from the arrows she has reserved for attack (yes, the attack power would drop, but what can you when a catapult goes faulty).

Kongou doesn't have as much mobility as Kitakami, and frankly, I seriously doubt she would change anything in such situation when the premise was to attack a base from afar.

She's not as agile. But she has a lot more firepower and can fire Sanshikidan, which are actually an effective anti-air munition in the anime (and the game ... I think. I hadn't convinced the game to give me any to try yet).

Past that, the series direction made sure it was all about Fubuki

Exactly. Which is not really a good idea. The protagonist is Fubuki, and she should take the cream. But not everything. One reviewer has it right. This is not "Bucky and Friends". Its Kantai Collection.

Her repairs won't be finished by the time she got out of the bath in the evening considering they just arrived not long ago.

Read above.

In reality that is. When was the last time anybody bothered with that in Kancolle? They are always steaming in close rows there. Besides, neither in the game nor in the anime are there enough escort vessels to form a real life screen anyway.

I point you in the direction of:
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141115144848/kancolle/images/b/b6/Formation_3.png

Akagi could have made that if she did not kick Maikaze and her division off her team.

Just going by memory I recount a "good moment" for Zuikaku with her determination to save Shōkaku at all costs in episode 7. Mutsuki had a "good moment" hammering some sense into Fubuki after the latter nearly got sank in episode 10. Just to name two. Honestly, this sounds more like frustration with Fubuki being the main character than actual gripes with the "good moments" count.

I'll be more appreciative that wasn't necessitated from their failure to put a few fighters above themselves, and that they didn't have to be saved by a destroyer, whose 12.7cm shell "Dai-has" a Flagship Wo. Really - one destroyer shell Dai-has a carrier. As for Mutsuki, incredibly, she later gets counterconvinced, which is ... uh.

Just to clarify a confusion that has gone on in the other thread too, I am pretty neutral towards Fubuki. However, I don't like how as the show goes on, it is increasingly only about Bucky. To take an example, in Ep10, you would, at the very least, expect her friends to jump in the water. But no, the show decides to keep the entire spotlight on Fubuki.

The show also saw fit to add some less than great aspects to Fubuki (which you must have read about in the other thread so I won't repeat her).

Klashikari
2015-03-23, 10:58
This answer will be quite long and involves two subjects, so going to use the tldr tag and be done with it: both sides pretty much had stated what they needed to say. At least, I would say I don't have much to add, and it is cycling/stalling at this point.

@Triple_R

Why does it have to be "for the sake of drama"?

What about "for the sake of realism" or "for the sake of believability"?

Honestly, that would be the main pro to a named protagonist getting sunk in the final episode.

This is a major and hard-fought military battle in a larger war. One could argue that, realistically-speaking, this should result in some deaths on both sides.
Just to clear a potential misunderstanding: I'm absolutely not against character death, even moreso since it involves military operations. Heck, I was one of the few gamers who wasn't shocked by Kisaragi's death and argued it was necessary to some degree.

What I'm against here is specifically Akagi's death in the very last episode. If she were to die in episode 10 or something, I wouldn't have much complaint considering she had some death flags and there would be at least a full episode to address this issue.If one or more of the fleet girls gets sunk, does it have to be Akagi? No, but here is where drama would (also) come in. Akagi dying would have more of an impact than most fleet girls dying would. If you can get drama *and* realism both in the same shot, I can see the appeal there. The problem is already stated previously: killing Akagi right there would be terrible imho, because the narrative would be screwed to no end. The series focused on Fubuki from start to finish (except ep6) and it was shown right from the start she aspired to be Akagi's escort. Killing Akagi there would be terrible because there is little to no way for Fubuki to earn some sort of "carthasis" since she barely had any role as Akagi's escort and there isn't any other material that would make her move on. Even if Mutsuki and Yuudachi are with her, her very motivation got shot down to hell.You honestly think that would be more contrived than every protagonist miraculously surviving a major battle?Yes I do. Simply put, we already went through the loss of a character, and there is absolutely no "quota" to fill, even if it is a major battle. Granted, I wouldn't be surprised if someone else sunk there, but if it happens to be Akagi, I seriously doubt the anime staff will be able to realistically handle the massive backlash it will cause on Fubuki.
It also brings a major problem: Akagi is one of the very few aircrafts available for the admiral to tackle on the Abyssals. Losing Akagi right there would cast a very grim atmosphere beyond Fubuki's own drama: it would need a major reconstruction of the fleet, with Nagato forced to deal the consequences.

@arkhangelsk

A decoy fleet is not going to be useful if it hits the enemy at about the same time as the main fleet! Besides, we might not want to see what happens if the decoy fleet actually worked, because then they'll hammer the tiny decoy fleet with 3 Wo-class carriers.The decoy fleet only has to lure the enemy, not engage it. As such, it is quite normal they are only composed of light vessels in order to bait the abyssals and leave the vicinity immediately upon detection.

And I don't see where Nagato stated she would send the AL fleet "at the same time". In fact, Akagi's fleet was tasked to set a rendez vous with Yamato, whereas the other fleet was to directly aim for AL.
We are talking about the big action of the IJN kanmusu. Now is not the time to hold back. Let Ooyodo control the people that are still here.Except that they need base defense considering what happened with the doolittle raid.
Also no, Ooyodo does not have the same weight as Nagato. Nagato is pretty much the commanding officer at the base with Mutsu as her aide. This is even more important now that her only superior, the admiral, has gone missing.
What you are saying is like asking the commander-in-chief to leave the HQ and ask the radio boy to coordinate the fleets AND issue them orders. That's absolutely not feasible, even moreso due to the scale of the operation.
Ep8 at the 8:15-8:20 mark actually explicitly mentions that they had finished their 入渠. Further, if we have to resort to pulling out abilities we've never seen in any other media, why don't we just admit there is a plot hole? Kaga did not learn to fold rabbits because she can get out of the bath whenever she needs to get a new manga or whatever she reads.Again, you are disregarding the fatigue and the repair for the planes. Also, they stated she is done -entering the dock-, Akagi didn't mention 修理 nor 回復, which is very different. There is nothing that indicate they had to do the full course of the repair at the dock, but likewise, if they keep getting in and out all the time, their repair won't finish at all.
50% more aircraft and carriers is "no immediate benefits whatsoever"?Not when the enemy forces is still going strong and could attack with their line of supply still intact, while Shoukaku and Zuikaku are still unavailable.
Obviously, it would be best for them to have their full capacity for a large scale operation, but giving their enemy even more leeway to strike is definitely not what Nagato and the Admiral were hoping for.
Well, they'd have to spot them first, and if that's so, what can the Abyssals do about it? They can 1 - Attack Truk, presumably with carriers. In which case we can have the battle at more favorable odds than attacking the enemy's base. 2 - They can try to raid the homebase again which we've seen can be easily repaired. 3 - Defend their own base.

(Besides, such concerns did not stop them from assembling in Truk for MO)If Truk is attacked, the risk of exposing Yamato's existence becomes quite real at this point.
Also, the base was easily repaired because the damage done was dealt by a SINGLE wo-class. It goes without saying that if she were to strike with her complete carrier group, things would have been way uglier.

Such attempts at "cleverness" and deception has caused the IJN's defeat at MIdway. Again, our theme here is to fight the fate of Midway.

The principles of the assault do not change such that the correct solution is to use two difficult to join up fleets with the carrier fleet leading.Again, you are forcefully using history in a very impertinent fashion: Akagi does -not- know the full extent of the real MI Operation. The only thing she knows is that, if they were to sortie like that, they are doomed, that's it.
Also, Nagato and Yamamoto's plans are practically opposite to each other in term of goal and prospect.
Both plans share the same fact that they would use a fleet to AL in order to lure the enemy force. Past that, it is different since Yamamoto planned to trap the USN in order to crush them in a single confrontation.
Nagato's plan was to join both fleets to a rendez vous point and make a frontal attack against MI base.

The fleets and initial layout are the same, but the execution and goals are quite different.
Also, let's not forget that AL fleet has secret orders which will probably override the initial ones.
Japanese carriers use Type 97 aircraft for both attack and scouting. In real life, in anime, and in the game. She just takes one from the arrows she has reserved for attack (yes, the attack power would drop, but what can you when a catapult goes faulty).In the game? Surely you jest. While they are sort of ok for attacks early in the game, you can't detect anything with that, let alone trigger "contact" with it.
Still, the issue is that she would have to deploy another attack plane which is suboptimal, especially in term of range: Type 97 has a range of 2100km while Zuiun has a range of 2400km. Likewise, the difference in term of speed is glaring: 375km/h VS 439km/h.
Plainly, using a Type 97 wouldn't fare as good as a Zuiun here.
Of course I'm using their real specs to make a comparison, and the distance/speed is probably scaled down for the Kanmusu/Abyssals but I -really- doubt the ratio is any different, especially if we consider the glaring difference of stats in term of recon in the game:
Type 97 has a measely 1 recon stats, while Zuiun has 6. Six times the recon value, and it is even more obvious when we consider that recon stats is DOUBLED for seaplanes. That makes the ratio 1:12, which is gigantic in term of contact mechanic and LOS requirements for maps.

While one can argue that a "loosy reconnaissance" is better than "no reconnaissance" in a given portion of the area, it has to be said that Akagi sticked to the protocol and using a bomber would be detrimental if she needs it for the second attack wave.
She's not as agile. But she has a lot more firepower and can fire Sanshikidan, which are actually an effective anti-air munition in the anime (and the game ... I think. I hadn't convinced the game to give me any to try yet).Sanshikidan do not have a major effect in the game as AA equipement, but still slightly contribute nonetheless. Even so, people don't even use Sanshikidan solely for AA, that's a waste of slot (instead, they are mainly used to deal heavy damage against Structure-type Bosses).
Anyway, note that the Sanshikidan were effective in Episode 3 because a full salvo was fired by the Kongou Sisters from afar, which means the shell would reach the desired altitude to explode. That's also why Yamato's own Shanshikidan show has impressed Fubuki because she singlehandedly dealt with them. If Sanshikidan were that effective, Hiei would be enough to deal with the planes which is not the case.
Exactly. Which is not really a good idea. The protagonist is Fubuki, and she should take the cream. But not everything. One reviewer has it right. This is not "Bucky and Friends". Its Kantai Collection.And that's where we have to agree to disagree: I don't see how Fubuki took "everything" here. Whereas the anime staff made some questionable decision regarding the pacing/flow of the series as a whole, many characters had their time to shine and arguably not in a minor fashion as already mentioned.I'll be more appreciative that wasn't necessitated from their failure to put a few fighters above themselves, and that they didn't have to be saved by a destroyer, whose 12.7cm shell "Dai-has" a Flagship Wo. Really - one destroyer shell Dai-has a carrier. As for Mutsuki, incredibly, she later gets counterconvinced, which is ... uh.Dai-has? Huh? if you mean 大破, that's "taiha", just saying.
You must remember that Fubuki got a very lucky shot and that both kanmusu and abyssals aren't just ships, but also sentient living beings.
No matter how though an enemy can be, if they were hit in a very weak spot, it would obviously have major effect on them. Note that it is actually possible for a destroyer to deal major damage on a flagship wo-class, and it doesn't has to be a Yuudachi or Ayanami kai ni to do that.
Just to clarify a confusion that has gone on in the other thread too, I am pretty neutral towards Fubuki. However, I don't like how as the show goes on, it is increasingly only about Bucky. To take an example, in Ep10, you would, at the very least, expect her friends to jump in the water. But no, the show decides to keep the entire spotlight on Fubuki.It wouldn't make sense for Fubuki not to stop them, exactly because it is a problem that only her can solve. Don't tell me Mutsuki and Yuudachi could convince Kaga and Akagi it would be enough at this point, as the whole point was to make Fubuki prepared to deal with AA duty. In fact, it would renders Fubuki's efforts for naught if Mutsuki and Yuudachi were to interrupt them.

Ithekro
2015-03-23, 11:34
Sanshikidan work at long range against formations of aircraft (some of the time). They are not very good for close in defense and historically were not considered to be of great value. They just didn't pack enough scrapnel to deal with single airplanes due to that lack of certain technologies. Technologies that the Americans had. Proximity fuses for one. They would tend to damage a lot of planes, but not down them. With more or denser metals to explode out and a proximity fuse to detonate it near the enemy craft, (rather than a timed fuse) than Sanshikidan become effective.

Therefore Hiei is not going to be useful for her Sanshikidan rounds against scattered air attacks that are close in. Her other weapons would still work, but Japanese AAA is notoriously bad in most cases.

Akagi, like all the other carriers, suffers from what their real life versions suffered from. Strict adherence to procedures. There is a proper way to launch an air strike, and that is the only way it is done. By the book. There are proper ways to do recon. By the book. The Japanese Navy is not know for throwing out the book. That was one of their downfalls. That they even had recon out from the carriers at all in this is against standard practise. That was why the Tone-class cruisers were their. They were the eyes of the fleet. That Akagi didn't have a CAP up was unusual, though from the look of it, they got caught like their original forms, lauching a strike. That strike should be able to turn back and engage the surface Abyssals with whatever they have, but they aren't designed to fight air to air.

They still don't know where the Wo are. Just that they are under attack from more than just the Hime.

Nvis
2015-03-23, 12:38
Why are ppl saying Midway Hime is the Abyssal Akagi? I don't see the resemblance.

arkhangelsk
2015-03-23, 13:03
Nice tag. I have to learn to use it.


@arkhangelsk[/B]

The decoy fleet only has to lure the enemy, not engage it. As such, it is quite normal they are only composed of light vessels in order to bait the abyssals and leave the vicinity immediately upon detection.

They are not going to escape with Junyo in their fleet (26 knots on a great day, or Slow - anyway they aren't getting away), unlike Wo.

And I don't see where Nagato stated she would send the AL fleet "at the same time". In fact, Akagi's fleet was tasked to set a rendez vous with Yamato, whereas the other fleet was to directly aim for AL.

They are sent out at the same time, and in the original plan, they aren't supposed to wait so long. So as far as we can see, we can expect the AL fleet to hit at best very shortly before the MI fleet hits.

What you are saying is like asking the commander-in-chief to leave the HQ and ask the radio boy to coordinate the fleets AND issue them orders. That's absolutely not feasible, even moreso due to the scale of the operation.

I feel sorry for Ooyodo, since she looks more like the staff officer than the "radio boy". Anyway, Nagato can't even issue effective orders from where she's sitting b/c all her units are in radio silence. Without intelligence and communications you have no control! If she bothers to sortie, at least she can direct the fleet she can see and if she groups everyone together she can see all of them.

Again, you are disregarding the fatigue and the repair for the planes. Also, they stated she is done -entering the dock-,

As far as available official material so far is concerned, entering the dock (then leaving it) is the only stage of repair. If we have to invent new stages that are never heard of before to paper over things, there's a plot hole.

As for fatigue, I wish they'd just use that since at least they did mention it in Ep8, though it is a long time to rest up.

Obviously, it would be best for them to have their full capacity for a large scale operation, but giving their enemy even more leeway to strike is definitely not what Nagato and the Admiral were hoping for.

The most irreplaceable thing in this anime is kanmusu (the bases are repaired rapidly). Of course, every day is a day when they can attack, but that's not sufficient excuse to rush in with insufficient force and risk losing everything.

When decision making, the most important thing is to note when you are rationalizing away problems so you can continue with your original plan. If your original plan says to use 6 carriers, it is because you need them. Be aware of the little devil's voice that says you can do it with four.

If Truk is attacked, the risk of exposing Yamato's existence becomes quite real at this point.

It will be revealed in a day or two anyway, when Yamato attacks them.

Also, the base was easily repaired because the damage done was dealt by a SINGLE wo-class. It goes without saying that if she were to strike with her complete carrier group, things would have been way uglier.

OK, so one day of emergency repair becomes three. Is that a reason to risk irreplaceable kanmusu (in the game, we'd have a new Kisaragi a long time ago, but here of course we don't)?

Again, you are forcefully using history in a very impertinent fashion: Akagi does -not- know the full extent of the real MI Operation. The only thing she knows is that, if they were to sortie like that, they are doomed, that's it.

You are Akagi. You have this crap dream. You can see who's there and who's not there. Instead of concluding something intelligent like "Wait a second, Shokaku and Zuikaku aren't there ... maybe that's what I need", you conclude "Maybe I should get rid of Maikaze". Uh, really.

Yamamoto planned to trap the USN in order to crush them in a single confrontation.
Nagato's plan was to join both fleets to a rendez vous point and make a frontal attack against MI base.

Actually, both plans are to hit MI to draw the enemy carriers out. Admittedly, Nagato did seem to at least want to put the "Main Body" closer to 1st Air Fleet (and Akagi defeats that concept by sailing on to the dust :-) ).

Still, the issue is that she would have to deploy another attack plane which is suboptimal, especially in term of range: Type 97 has a range of 2100km while Zuiun has a range of 2400km. Likewise, the difference in term of speed is glaring: 375km/h VS 439km/h. Plainly, using a Type 97 wouldn't fare as good as a Zuiun here.

They are not Zuiuns. They are the older Type 0 recce planes. Look at the plane in Chikuma's hand (the tail of Zuiun is much more swept back). If you use the game, you can't put Zuiun on the non-Kai Tone and Chikuma anyway.

While one can argue that a "loosy reconnaissance" is better than "no reconnaissance" in a given portion of the area, it has to be said that Akagi sticked to the protocol and using a bomber would be detrimental if she needs it for the second attack wave.

I thought we are trying to avoid Midway here... I mean, you see your friends being beaten to crap in your dream. You don't even suspect it was because you were ambushed and prioritize reconaissance?

Anyway, note that the Sanshikidan were effective in Episode 3 because a full salvo was fired by the Kongou Sisters from afar, which means the shell would reach the desired altitude to explode. That's also why Yamato's own Shanshikidan show has impressed Fubuki because she singlehandedly dealt with them. If Sanshikidan were that effective, Hiei would be enough to deal with the planes which is not the case.

The enemy torpedo planes were at almost zero altitude. The problem is probably more that they were detected too late, so the attacking planes are spread out very widely on multiple bearings (the lack of a radar is really hurting here...) at relatively high bearing rates, making them difficult to attack with Sanshikidan.

You must remember that Fubuki got a very lucky shot and that both kanmusu and abyssals aren't just ships, but also sentient living beings.

In other words, Plot Convenience.

It wouldn't make sense for Fubuki not to stop them, exactly because it is a problem that only her can solve. Don't tell me Mutsuki and Yuudachi could convince Kaga and Akagi it would be enough at this point, as the whole point was to make Fubuki prepared to deal with AA duty. In fact, it would renders Fubuki's efforts for naught if Mutsuki and Yuudachi were to interrupt them.

I didn't say they should interrupt them. I said they should jump in. Fubuki can then do something intelligent to lead them to victory. They can all do something and Fubuki actually looks more intelligent than the "mercy Kai" she was eventually given.

Kakurin
2015-03-23, 13:07
Such attempts at "cleverness" and deception has caused the IJN's defeat at MIdway. Again, our theme here is to fight the fate of Midway.
The Japanese defeat at Midway had many reasons. The overly complex plan was one of them, but it was by far not the factor that caused the Japanese disaster. Compared to the initial mistake in assumptions made by Yamamoto this "cleverness" factor is negligible.

Exactly. Which is not really a good idea. The protagonist is Fubuki, and she should take the cream. But not everything. One reviewer has it right. This is not "Bucky and Friends". Its Kantai Collection.
Fubuki is the clearcut main character of the Kancolle anime. Whether you like it or not, it is about "Fubuki and Friends". Just because the anime's part of the Kancolle franchise does not mean Fubuki getting main character like spotlight is wrong.

Akagi could have made that if she did not kick Maikaze and her division off her team.
Akagi didn't kick off the entire division. She reduced the intial setup by a single destroyer. Instead of Maikaze, Akigumo, Makigumo and Fubuki it was changed to Kitakami, Yūdachi and Fubuki. And as I said before, you can't form a real life screen with four destroyers. Besides, for anti-air purposes a bunched up formation is actually more useful than spreading it out, since then it's possible to increase the intensity of anti-air fire through concentration.

I'll be more appreciative that wasn't necessitated from their failure to put a few fighters above themselves, and that they didn't have to be saved by a destroyer, whose 12.7cm shell "Dai-has" a Flagship Wo. Really - one destroyer shell Dai-has a carrier. As for Mutsuki, incredibly, she later gets counterconvinced, which is ... uh.
You will be surprised then what my Yūdachi and Ayanami can do to them Wos. Also, since when was it confirmed that the Wo was taiha'd? She got a lucky hit in the eye, other than that no damage and retreated then into fog. She isn't in such a bad state overall that would impair her ability to launch planes for example, a sign for damage upward of chūha.

EDIT:

They are not going to escape with Junyo in their fleet (26 knots on a great day, or Slow - anyway they aren't getting away), unlike Wo.
Since you are using real life stats: The 26 knots are of no concern. Unless in combat situations ships never use their full speed for a long stretch as it consumes a huge amount of fuel. Destroyers are especially bad in that department. A Hatsuharu-class DD for example has a range of about 6000nm at 15 knots cruising speed. That range is reduced to 1000nm at top speed. It will be no problem escaping with a top speed of 26 knots. After getting spotted, turn away at full speed for the first hour, then return to cruise speed, which is significantly lower. I also think you have no real feeling about how fast a knot really is. The difference between 26 knots and 29 knots (max speed of Ryūjo) is five kilometres per hour.

It will be revealed in a day or two anyway, when Yamato attacks them.
Ah okay, so you think surprise effect doesn't matter?

I didn't say they should interrupt them. I said they should jump in.
Jump in and do what?

Klashikari
2015-03-23, 13:45
Looks like I have few corrections to do, and new things to add after all... *sigh*
They are sent out at the same time, and in the original plan, they aren't supposed to wait so long. So as far as we can see, we can expect the AL fleet to hit at best very shortly before the MI fleet hits.Where is the evidence they are to strike at the same time as the main force for MI? Let's not forget Nachi's secrets orders.

I feel sorry for Ooyodo, since she looks more like the staff officer than the "radio boy". Anyway, Nagato can't even issue effective orders from where she's sitting b/c all her units are in radio silence. Without intelligence and communications you have no control! If she bothers to sortie, at least she can direct the fleet she can see and if she groups everyone together she can see all of them.
Again, you are disregarding base defense. The kongou sisters and Yamato are deployed, and the only capital ships remaining are... Nagato and Mutsu. Should they are deployed and the base is attacked by a stroke of bad luck, there would be merely CA and CVL to defend a base that was wiped out by a single wo class.
As far as available official material so far is concerned, entering the dock (then leaving it) is the only stage of repair. If we have to invent new stages that are never heard of before to paper over things, there's a plot hole.What official material? It isn't like every medium follow the very same rules, and thus far, I didn't imply there are "new stages" of repair. Simply several times they have to get in the repair facility if their repair takes too long. No matter Akagi and Kaga's past times, I really doubt they would be able to stay like that for 30 hours straight. You are making that assumption because of the game where you can't get a ship out of the bath once they are in, except with a bucket, but the anime already demonstrated it doesn't stick to game mechanics to a T. Otherwise, should we call plot hole that they can attack several shelling phases without battleships?It will be revealed in a day or two anyway, when Yamato attacks them.And the whole point was to keep Yamato hidden so she can go full force the day of the operation. If she is spotted before they start operation MI, you bet she will be the primary target for the Abyssals.
OK, so one day of emergency repair becomes three. Is that a reason to risk irreplaceable kanmusu (in the game, we'd have a new Kisaragi a long time ago, but here of course we don't)?I believe there were a lot of cases where the IJN failed during the war because they didn't take any risk at some point. For instance, Kurita could have wiped out Taffy3 during the battle of Leyte Gulf if he didn't overestimated the enemy force by thinking they were carrier fleet instead of merely escort carriers.
Point stands like this: the naval district has hard time to deal with the abyssals due to their thinned supply lines, and loitering around will just increase the risk of losing their territory should the Abyssals make their move. The worst case would be if they decide to raid Truk, with the consequences I've mentioned already. I never stated it was without any risk and Nagato's attitude shows quite well she still has conncerns about the plan. Yet, if they just wait for Shoukaku's repair, they might lose the expansion they painstakingly got. Maintening defense for Truk would be pretty bad since MO island is still under the abyssal's control. Moreover, they still didn't strengthen their supply lines for obvious reasons.
You are Akagi. You have this crap dream. You can see who's there and who's not there. Instead of concluding something intelligent like "Wait a second, Shokaku and Zuikaku aren't there ... maybe that's what I need", you conclude "Maybe I should get rid of Maikaze". Uh, really.

I thought we are trying to avoid Midway here... I mean, you see your friends being beaten to crap in your dream. You don't even suspect it was because you were ambushed and prioritize reconaissance?Do you really think Akagi has the very exact grasp that "well, you failed because you were only 4 carriers, not 6"? The dream she got barely shows very few gimpse of the real Midway. That's not even a flashback, but a frigging dream, which isn't as clear as regular memories.
Let's expand the problem here: what if the issue was submarines that crippled enough kanmusu to the point Abyssals fleet can attack them without worry? What if it was an ambush involve torpedo squadron? What if the Abyssals went just through their aerial strike and plainly suicide-rush on them? There is not enough information from what we can tell with the dream sequence, and it is worse when Akagi herself can't help but describe it as a "strange feeling" instead of solid conviction.
Actually, both plans are to hit MI to draw the enemy carriers out. Admittedly, Nagato did seem to at least want to put the "Main Body" closer to 1st Air Fleet (and Akagi defeats that concept by sailing on to the dust :-) ).Yamamoto's primary goal was to get rid of the USN carrier fleet, more than acquiring Midway island.
He planned to lure the USN force within his carriers range, then have his surface fleet to do the clean up. That's not what Nagato was trying to do by having the combined fleet striking together the base. The plan is much more simple and straightforward, with the only issue that involves failure with the rendez vous between the two fleets.
They are not Zuiuns. They are the older Type 0 recce planes. Look at the plane in Chikuma's hand (the tail of Zuiun is much more swept back). If you use the game, you can't put Zuiun on the non-Kai Tone and Chikuma anyway.Funnily enough, that mistake makes me realize the difference between the two aircrafts are even worse in reality, since I somehow swapp ALL THREE stats (giving type 97 the Recon plane specs).
Type 97 Range: 627km
Type 0 Range: 2100km

More than thrice the range, and the game still show the huge decrepency of LOS: 1 against 5, which is 1:10 for actual reconnaissance stats. In reality and in the game, Type 97 can't hold the water against even the regular type 0 recon plane in term of reconnaissance.
In other words, Plot Convenience. Alright, so it is plot convenience that Akagi etc eat -normal food- along with regular supplies. It is plot convience to have them both ships and human body physics etc... No really, we aren't dealing with just piece of steel you know.

arkhangelsk
2015-03-23, 21:55
The Japanese defeat at Midway had many reasons. The overly complex plan was one of them, but it was by far not the factor that caused the Japanese disaster. Compared to the initial mistake in assumptions made by Yamamoto this "cleverness" factor is negligible.

Actually, it makes the plan even stupider. The overly complex and "clever" Midway Fleet Disposition were made on the basis of those Assumptions you mention. While naive and incorrect, if you accept the assumptions as premises, the plan at least makes some sense. Here, the assumptions don't apply, and we still have the same basic disposition. Hmm...

Fubuki is the clearcut main character of the Kancolle anime. Whether you like it or not, it is about "Fubuki and Friends". Just because the anime's part of the Kancolle franchise does not mean Fubuki getting main character like spotlight is wrong.

Maybe the world does look different from the POV of one who at least liked Fubuki enough to pick her for starter. From the POV of someone who did not, I don't hate Fubuki but in a sea of destroyers if not for her quests and Kai-2 she'd be a Modernization Material. I do understand she was planned to be the MC, and see her as a LCD choice for anime MC. We can pick Kongo or any number of others, but then the others will scream. Fubuki is uncontroversial - in fact, we want to see if the anime (and let's face it, the franchise is interconnected, so you can't really say Game and Anime are completely separate) can make "Bucky" a character. Especially since one way or another, she's now Kai-2 and a keeper. If possible, i want a keeper with character rather than because of the Kai-2.

However, having gone with a LCD choice does mean the anime has to give "our" characters their "Moments of Awesome" as TVTropes puts it if we are to be happy. Fubuki can grow and have good moments (in fact we look forward to it), but if she does so at the expense of "our" characters we are unhappy. I've actually seen people demand "character development" for other characters than Fubuki. I won't go so far - just so long as the rest are not "shafted".

Akagi didn't kick off the entire division. She reduced the intial setup by a single destroyer. Instead of Maikaze, Akigumo, Makigumo and Fubuki it was changed to Kitakami, Yūdachi and Fubuki. And as I said before, you can't form a real life screen with four destroyers. Besides, for anti-air purposes a bunched up formation is actually more useful than spreading it out, since then it's possible to increase the intensity of anti-air fire through concentration.

Has the possibility that she could have kept Maikaze et al (Mutsu expressly mentions that there's a variant for keeping them) and tacked on Yuudachi and Kitakami (and we might as well add in Oi - I feel for Oi here!) occurred to you? Especially if you think they can ignore game limits (so much for any reasons to limit to only 12 vessels?

As for the ring. Here are the facts of life. Japanese destroyers are notoriously weak at AA, a fact that is carried over into Kantai Collection including the anime (you'd notice as a whole they aren't getting those planes in Ep3). Thus, their main job is to provide some early warning for the heavier hitters (especially since Akagi sent away the things that have radar).

You will be surprised then what my Yūdachi and Ayanami can do to them Wos. Also, since when was it confirmed that the Wo was taiha'd? She got a lucky hit in the eye, other than that no damage and retreated then into fog. She isn't in such a bad state overall that would impair her ability to launch planes for example, a sign for damage upward of chūha.

I suppose from this you aren't getting as much success from those destroyers that aren't given cruiser level firepower coefficients, then. Anyway, the report at the episode end says Taiha. Do you want to say Fubuki falsified her report?

Since you are using real life stats: The 26 knots are of no concern.

I'm picking on the slowest ship there, but Ryujo is still not fast at 29. And if they don't use their top speed, the Abyssals can achieve an even greater closure - if that is they don't just catch them with planes...

Ah okay, so you think surprise effect doesn't matter?

If the Abyssals attack Truk, that's just changing the place where the Decisive Battle happens.

Jump in and do what?

And get pelted. Look, I know Fubuki is the main character and she will be the one who comes up with the brilliant saving throw. But I want to at least see some solidarity.


Looks like I have few corrections to do, and new things to add after all... *sigh*
Where is the evidence they are to strike at the same time as the main force for MI? Let's not forget Nachi's secrets orders.

The fact they have sortied at the same time and that everything is about one day's distance at most in this game. And if those secret orders are to help MI, they'd have to read them almost immediately.

Again, you are disregarding base defense. The kongou sisters and Yamato are deployed, and the only capital ships remaining are... Nagato and Mutsu. Should they are deployed and the base is attacked by a stroke of bad luck, there would be merely CA and CVL to defend a base that was wiped out by a single wo class.

A risk to be sure. But for one thing, they don't even have intelligence that they'd attack. Besides, if they attack, in a way that's actually good. The base might be flattened but we've established that's repairable. The attacking Wos (this mission's objective) have now placed themselves outside the mutual support provided by the Midway Anchorage defense complex and are actually easier to attack.

In fact, if we say we don't have to follow the game limits, and we accept the remaining CAs and CVLs can't defend the base against Wos, we might as well pour all of them into the offensive.

What official material? It isn't like every medium follow the very same rules, and thus far, I didn't imply there are "new stages" of repair. Simply several times they have to get in the repair facility if their repair takes too long. No matter Akagi and Kaga's past times, I really doubt they would be able to stay like that for 30 hours straight.

If there are no new stages, then on Ep8 8:15-20, they already reported the end (not a "pause") of the docking process.

I'm not saying they can't use your method. But it will be entirely new addition to not only those that are familiar with the game, but newcomers who are also given the implication it is not interruptable (in fact while you are right other mediums don't follow all the rules, I don't think this concept has been used previously in any other official material).

Further, even if I accept the idea they can take short breaks for meals, another problem is that we are shown repair times, and they are the "typical" game variety - the implication is that game rules apply (at least broadly) on this point. Between these two factors, if you really want to break from these assumptions, you have to set it up. Then it becomes a plus point. But they didn't and so it is a plot hole.

And the whole point was to keep Yamato hidden so she can go full force the day of the operation. If she is spotted before they start operation MI, you bet she will be the primary target for the Abyssals.

Good! Isn't one of Yamato's role a tough meat shield?

I believe there were a lot of cases where the IJN failed during the war because they didn't take any risk at some point. For instance, Kurita could have wiped out Taffy3 during the battle of Leyte Gulf if he didn't overestimated the enemy force by thinking they were carrier fleet instead of merely escort carriers.

They've lost more battles because they refuse to put in the ships when it counts, or they rush operations rather than putting in the force they in their hearts knew they needed.

Yet, if they just wait for Shoukaku's repair, they might lose the expansion they painstakingly got. Maintening defense for Truk would be pretty bad since MO island is still under the abyssal's control. Moreover, they still didn't strengthen their supply lines for obvious reasons.

If they lose their best ships, there will be no more expansion and only a matter of time before what expansion they got is rolled back up. If they win the decisive battle while keeping their ships even if the Abyssals take back one or two points they can get it back.

Do you really think Akagi has the very exact grasp that "well, you failed because you were only 4 carriers, not 6"? The dream she got barely shows very few gimpse of the real Midway. That's not even a flashback, but a frigging dream, which isn't as clear as regular memories.

I don't pretend she can see everything. But she can see:
1) They are losing, bad.
2) The enemy has air superiority.
3) Who's there and who's not.

Let's expand the problem here: what if the issue was submarines that crippled enough kanmusu to the point Abyssals fleet can attack them without worry? What if it was an ambush involve torpedo squadron? What if the Abyssals went just through their aerial strike and plainly suicide-rush on them?

Perhaps. But you deal with the problems you can see first, and the answer to none of these questions is "less screen"!

Yamamoto's primary goal was to get rid of the USN carrier fleet, more than acquiring Midway island.

Nagato explains the plan in the show - it is also about the carriers.

Type 97 Range: 627km

That's the range stat for the Army's Ki-27 (Type 97) fighter plane.

Alright, so it is plot convenience that Akagi etc eat -normal food- along with regular supplies. It is plot convience to have them both ships and human body physics etc... No really, we aren't dealing with just piece of steel you know.

It is not an uncommon play in anime for human looking bodies to be ridiculously resillient, and in fact is one of the premises required for a kanmusu.[/QUOTE]

CGrascal
2015-03-24, 00:19
Why are ppl saying Midway Hime is the Abyssal Akagi? I don't see the resemblance.

Similar hairstyle and facial features.
Midway Hime acts like a carrier in the game, like Akagi.
You run into Midway Hime in the Operation MI special event in the game. The exact same battle the series is in at the moment. Throw in the fact that other special events that reference certain battles where a ship sank, and the boss of that map also looks like a girl that can be a part of your fleet.

Kakurin
2015-03-24, 03:27
Maybe the world does look different from the POV of one who at least liked Fubuki enough to pick her for starter.
My starter ship was Samidare. Fubuki sat on level 7 for half a year. Fubuki was chosen as main character of the anime. Whether people like it or not, that's a fact and going by that fact she deserves main character treatment in the anime.

I suppose from this you aren't getting as much success from those destroyers that aren't given cruiser level firepower coefficients, then. Anyway, the report at the episode end says Taiha. Do you want to say Fubuki falsified her report?
Just because I mentioned the two of them doesn't mean that I don't get success from other DDs. Klashikari's already mentioned it, it doesn't have to be the two of them to do heavy damage.

Anyway, yeah, right, because Fubuki and the others can perfectly assess the damage the Wo suffered from looking at her for a couple of seconds. Fubuki hit her eye, but at no point did the Wo actually look like she was incapacitated. The Wo calmly assessed the odds that were stacked against her and chose to retreat.

I'm picking on the slowest ship there, but Ryujo is still not fast at 29. And if they don't use their top speed, the Abyssals can achieve an even greater closure - if that is they don't just catch them with planes...
Why in the world are you mixing real life stats and Kancolle? :eyespin:

And by the way, 29 knots is fast. The Kongōs' max speed was 30 knots, Kaga steamed at a max of 28. And as for the enemy being able to achieve greater closure... you do know that the enemy follows the same principles regarding max speed and fuel consumption do you? They likewise can't keep up max speed for enough time. And catching them with planes, depending on the distance, the time needed to spot the aircraft, the target may be long gone from the area where it was spotted. Besides, this also assumes that a fleet is in the vicinity ready for combat.

If the Abyssals attack Truk, that's just changing the place where the Decisive Battle happens.
Ah, so you think it doesn't matter whether the decisive battle is fought on ones own terms or the enemies terms, e.g. getting surprised by the enemy while not ready for combat? Interesting concept.

And get pelted. Look, I know Fubuki is the main character and she will be the one who comes up with the brilliant saving throw. But I want to at least see some solidarity.
It was Fubuki's training. Why in the world is it solidarity when they disrupt Fubuki's training? If anything it is counterproductive.

Ithekro
2015-03-24, 04:06
Fubuki's estimation of the Wo's damage is likely related to the multiple incorrect reports of damages to enemy ship in World War II on all side. Yorktown and Enterprise were both considered sunk more than once. The Americans thought some of the Japanese carriers had survived Midway for a time. The Americans though certain destroyers had been sunk or at least would be laid up for a long time, yet were back long before they were expected (leading to several misidentifications in official sources about which Japanese destroyers did what).

For speeds, sea state and weather also effect things. And not always evenly. Some ships can handle rough seas and other can't. 26 knots is only a problem if you assume the Wo-class representative of the Yorktowns and their 33 or so knots. Even then, you get into problems. Carriers have to turn into the wind to launch aircraft, even the shipgirls do that. If the retreat is with the wind, while the carriers have a tailwing, they can't launch airplanes. And closing to shooting distance, carrier to carrier, is never recommended. Only the likes of Lexington, Akagi, and Kaga were designed to do that when launched. And while the later American carriers had 5 inch guns, it was more for AA than surface combat. Also it would be more useful against destroyers than another carrier.

Sure the enemy destroyer could catch the AI group, but again it is distance over time. How long can the cruisers and destroyers run over 30 knots to catch a carrier that can probably sustain its higher speed for longer?

But do shipgirls and Abyssal even follow those sorts of rules?

If they do or don't, and Truk is attacked, they wil likely catch the shipgirls on land, where they seem useless for combat. While one Wo only damaged the Naval District, three can probably level the smaller Truk base, which will not be as easily repaired since its supplies still have to come from the Naval District. At that point the base is not usable, and the retreating damaged shipgirls are easy prey. Many won't make it back to the Naval District. And it still does nothing desfeat the Abyssals. Probably wouldn't even find the Wo-class ships if they hit as hard and fast as the first one did. That one could get that deep into the Districts waters was the worry, and Truk is easier to get to than the Naval District. And Truk had already been subject to an enemy recon attempt. Possibly by the same Wo before she head off to strike at the Admiral's office.

Klashikari
2015-03-24, 04:55
The fact they have sortied at the same time and that everything is about one day's distance at most in this game. And if those secret orders are to help MI, they'd have to read them almost immediately.Leaving the base at the same time doesn't mean they are to attack at the very same time. We don't know how far AL base is, and we don't know about the exact schedule of the operation.
Note that Nachi mentioned a certain timing for her orders, which means that at least her squadron are to follow a certain schedule instead of immediately rushing AL. Likewise, This also holds true for Akagi who was supposed to wait for Yamato. The base might be flattened but we've established that's repairable. The attacking Wos (this mission's objective) have now placed themselves outside the mutual support provided by the Midway Anchorage defense complex and are actually easier to attack.The base was attacked by ONE wo-class. By herself, she destroyed many facilities and the kanmusu there were sort of lucky that no one got hurt in the process. It goes without saying that a full task force against the Naval District would lead to much worse consequences. Trading merely an abyssal advance base for your main base.... frankly, that prospect is ridiculous.Further, even if I accept the idea they can take short breaks for meals, another problem is that we are shown repair times, and they are the "typical" game variety - the implication is that game rules apply (at least broadly) on this point. Between these two factors, if you really want to break from these assumptions, you have to set it up. Then it becomes a plus point. But they didn't and so it is a plot hole.1) the large bath tube holds more than 1 kanmusu and does not have any timer
2) more than 4 kanmusu can get in the bath at the same time
3) Fubuki, who was NOT damaged could enter in the bath, which is not possible in the game.

And it isn't only the bath: the anime already demonstrated it follows a few game mechanics, but still change them to fit the actual anime environment. So really, if you accept that they can change their formation during battle or the fact they can attack several times without a battleship, or again the fact we have many elements that contradict the game (food VS resources, equipment not on them all the time etc), then there is no frigging reason to cling on the pseudo "plot hole" that they can't just leave the bath for a short while. If anyone can enter there despite they aren't damage, likewise it also means they can leave even if it is not completely done. Oh and, remember that Shoukaku was much more damaged than Zuikaku, yet both left the bath at the very same time despite they didn't use any bucket, otherwise they wouldn't leave the bath only at nighttime.Good! Isn't one of Yamato's role a tough meat shield?What are you talking about? No, Yamato is not supposed to be like that, otherwise the IJN would have used a little more often even due to her costs. The whole point is that Yamato can deal major damage due to her arsenal, but it is useless if she get harassed to the point she can't fulfill her purpose. Nagato herself pointed out that they can't afford her being exposed prior the operation, and that's quite obvious why.
If they lose their best ships, there will be no more expansion and only a matter of time before what expansion they got is rolled back up. If they win the decisive battle while keeping their ships even if the Abyssals take back one or two points they can get it back.They are already struggling with their supply lines. If they lose an island like Truk, not only it would be much harder to deal with the Abyssals due to how they have to take back the territory they lost in the process, but they would have lost many resources and facility back at Truk. If they let the Abyssals keeping their momentum, they are at risk of a much bigger problem.
I don't pretend she can see everything. But she can see:
1) They are losing, bad.
2) The enemy has air superiority.
3) Who's there and who's not.There is no indication what was the cause of the air superiority. Either 1) the enemy indeed has more carriers (and we know it isn't the case in both the anime and IRL) 2) something crippled Akagi's carriers which made them unable to launch their planes.
The second point is what happened, and there is nothing that indicates Akagi how it happened. There is no way for her to realize if it was a pack of submarines who successfully disabled Kaga or herself, or any of the possible scenario I've mentioned previously. There are a lot of situations that could lead to such results which doesn't involve the lack of carrier on their own side.

To make things worse, it is a dream, and as I stated, a dream isn't as tangible as some regular memories. Akagi can't help but feel something is amiss, instead of having a clear understanding that their fleet is NG.
Perhaps. But you deal with the problems you can see first, and the answer to none of these questions is "less screen"!You aren't going to have "much less screen" with only ONE destroyer missing there. The reason why Akagi failed there was because she had to make a very quick decision due to unexpected parameters, and even that decision had some merits as Kaga suggested they couldn't just wait and be spotted at some point. The initial fleet composition change doesn't contribute to their downfall here.
Nagato explains the plan in the show - it is also about the carriers.Yeah, and Nagato arguably didn't state they are about to lure the carrier task force to pin them down in a convulated plan. Look, they were to go for a frontal assault, and both fleets meet at a rendez vous point before the assault.
How is that even remotely the same as Yamamoto trying to be a smartass by separating his fleets miles away? Yamamoto's fleets were not tasked to make a combined fleet at a later point, whereas it was supposed to be the case for Akagi and Yamato.
That's the range stat for the Army's Ki-27 (Type 97) fighter plane.*sigh*You know what my point is, and it is very tiring. But sure: 1992km (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_B5N). Still a little more than 100km. And that's just the difference IRL. Difference in the game is even more blatant as I already explained and no one in hell would use bomber for recon in the game, since you can't do shit with these.It is not an uncommon play in anime for human looking bodies to be ridiculously resillient, and in fact is one of the premises required for a kanmusu.Yet, it isn't uncommon either that a very though character getst toasted just because their weak spot has been hit.
In the end, it isn't unheard of that DD can deal major damage to larger ships, and it is even more true in the damn franchise.

Ithekro
2015-03-24, 05:22
Considering what the American destroyers and destroyer escorts pulled off and Samar, Fubuki hurting a Wo is not out of the question.

arkhangelsk
2015-03-24, 08:48
Considering what the American destroyers and destroyer escorts pulled off and Samar, Fubuki hurting a Wo is not out of the question.

The primary weapon there was the torpedo IIRC...


Leaving the base at the same time doesn't mean they are to attack at the very same time. We don't know how far AL base is, and we don't know about the exact schedule of the operation.

They launched at the same time. If we assume AL is farther away, then MI's strike will go in first and that will be last of the value of the decoy. Even if it is closer, due to the short timings for going everywhere established by the anime, they can't be very much earlier

Note that Nachi mentioned a certain timing for her orders, which means that at least her squadron are to follow a certain schedule instead of immediately rushing AL.

She says at a certain timing, they are to open the orders. In the meantime, their old orders to pummel AL are active.

Likewise, This also holds true for Akagi who was supposed to wait for Yamato.

And they were presumably not supposed to be waiting and waiting for Yamato to show up.

The base was attacked by ONE wo-class.

Which caused one day emergency repair's worth of damage. Trading three or so days to repair the base (let's not pretend it would be lost) for a bunch of enemy carriers is not bad especially since that's a worst case scenario. If they lose because they were skimpy, the enemy Wos will be able to gain sea superiority and then they will never be able to repair the base.

And it isn't only the bath: the anime already demonstrated it follows a few game mechanics

Fine. If we pretend the game never existed, the anime will establish the 入渠 as the means of repairing shipgirls and no other means mentioned. We are given a time to repair damage of a carrier from a torpedo (15H). We see a carrier damaged a 2nd time, and that one was longer ... say 2-3x as long from the events, which may be explained by individual circumstances or Akagi having already served part of her "sentence". The story heavily implies they cannot freely move since they fold rabbits and do other things to pass the time in the bath. Further, at 8:15 of Ep8 they will establish Shokaku has finished her 入渠. The time was in the range of a few hours, which is shorter but not grossly so, so there's no justification for insisting they somehow aren't finished.

So we've already established some rough parameters even within the anime, and it'll be breaking those parameters to have Shokaku suddenly still be in repair. Thus, it is hard to avoid the conclusion there is a plothole.

No, Yamato is not supposed to be like that, otherwise the IJN would have used a little more often even due to her costs.

I don't want to dismiss Yamato's firepower, but her armor and survivability are also part of her virtues. If the enemy peck at her, everyone else can attack freely, so she's still performing her function.

Besides, Nagato said that before Yamato announced herself to the world. If we think that didn't bust her and we must not use her during defensive operations against enemy carriers approaching Truk ... one girl is easy to hide.

They are already struggling with their supply lines.

Their comfortable lives strongly imply that it isn't like their supply lines are being strangled. Any supply difficulties are due to an overly aggressive tempo and while the Abyssals can sting, they are overall winning.

Even if they lose an island like Truk, they can still get it back. Maybe with some difficulty, but they have the assets. Lose said assets and Truk will be gone anyway next week, and they won't get it back.

There is no way for her to realize if it was a pack of submarines who successfully disabled Kaga or herself, or any of the possible scenario I've mentioned previously.

If it was a pack of submarines, the solution is more escorts, not less. She should have kept Maikaze's division and tacked on Yuudachi plus whatever else she can get. If they are surface attackers, same and aircraft carriers would help. In short, even if we assume Akagi had a much blurrier impression of her dream than we did, it is hard to come up with a threat where the correct solution is fewer assets.

The initial fleet composition change doesn't contribute to their downfall here.

If they had even one more destroyer, they could have made a picket screen of sorts even after dumping Fubuki and Kongo. That in itself could have improved this Getting Hammered scene into a meeting engagement.

And it is the beginning of a string of weak decisions which lead to their final plight.

Yeah, and Nagato arguably didn't state they are about to lure the carrier task force to pin them down in a convulated plan. Look, they were to go for a frontal assault, and both fleets meet at a rendez vous point before the assault.

You mean, attacking a base to lure carriers out is not convoluted? Now admittedly, Nagato did improve on Yama-chan's plan by setting an assembly point (though they should have sortied in an assembled state). Other than that...

And then Akagi threw Nagato's improvement away as she sailed forward :-)

Still a little more than 100km. And that's just the difference IRL.

Can't bring the game back in just when it is convenient :-) 100km is about 5%. It is not significant.

In the end, it isn't unheard of that DD can deal major damage to larger ships, and it is even more true in the damn franchise.

Since you said I shouldn't use the game, we are left with reality as a external reference. So, we have a destroyer, armed with a 5-inch gun, Heavily Damaging a carrier with one shell (not torpedo, gun). You tell me if there is something forced about this :-)

Kakurin
2015-03-24, 09:13
The primary weapon there was the torpedo IIRC...
Chikuma was raked by fire of 5in guns from Samuel B. Roberts and Heermann.

We are given a time to repair damage of a carrier from a torpedo (15H).
Akagi was already in the bath for some time. The damage she took from the torpedo therefore took far longer than 15 hours to repair.

The story heavily implies they cannot freely move since they fold rabbits and do other things to pass the time in the bath.
It doesn't imply anything in that sorts. You are making a mental error. To repair damage they have to stay the displayed time in the bath, meaning they use the time to do various things like folding rabbits. This has nothing to do with whether they can get out of the bath for a time - during which the damage isn't further repaired - or not since they don't repair damage while out of the bath.

Further, at 8:15 of Ep8 they will establish Shokaku has finished her 入渠.
入渠 = entering a dock. It doesn't mean finishing the repair process.

If they had even one more destroyer, they could have made a picket screen of sorts even after dumping Fubuki and Kongo. That in itself could have improved this Getting Hammered scene into a meeting engagement.
Whether you have one destroyer or two doing this doesn't matter. Besides you are ignoring weather conditions. In these weather conditions advanced warning is limited by visual contact. Place a couple of DDs further out does nothing, since the planes will just fly over them out of visual range before dipping down when closing in on the big targets.

Can't bring the game back in just when it is convenient :-)
This is ridiculous. Klashikari's clearly distinguished between when he's referencing game, anime and reality. The one who mingles all together is you.

Since you said I shouldn't use the game, we are left with reality as a external reference. So, we have a destroyer, armed with a 5-inch gun, Heavily Damaging a carrier with one shell (not torpedo, gun). You tell me if there is something forced about this :-)
Again, since when was it confirmed that the Wo was taiha'd? Ithekro has already pointed out, false estimates happened quite often. Considering the overall state of the Wo and the short time they had observing her it isn't unlikely that Fubuki and the others erred in the estimation of the damage inflicted.

arkhangelsk
2015-03-24, 09:42
Chikuma was raked by fire of 5in guns from Samuel B. Roberts and Heermann.

They raked, but most of the damage was done by the torpedoes.

Though I might as well apologize here for confusing you for Sheba.

The damage she took from the torpedo therefore took far longer than 15 hours to repair.

I'll grant you that possibility, but nevertheless having established fixes like that, now to change it takes a new setup.

It doesn't imply anything in that sorts. You are making a mental error. To repair damage they have to stay the displayed time in the bath, meaning they use the time to do various things like folding rabbits. This has nothing to do with whether they can get out of the bath for a time - during which the damage isn't further repaired - or not since they don't repair damage while out of the bath.

You are going to be sitting there folding rabbits and popping styrofoam when you can just take regular trips out of the bathroom to get your manga, your novel, whatever? The clear implication is that you can't, especially when someone has to go to read the combat report to them rather than them just going out for a few minutes to get it.

入渠 = entering a dock. It doesn't mean finishing the repair process.

It is actually better described as a state of being in the dock. Unless you think that you can finish a 入渠 by just entering it and getting right back out. The question would be meaningless.

Whether you have one destroyer or two doing this doesn't matter. Besides you are ignoring weather conditions. In these weather conditions advanced warning is limited by visual contact. Place a couple of DDs further out does nothing, since the planes will just fly over them out of visual range before dipping down when closing in on the big targets.

We are in an overcast. To spot ships, the planes will have to be below the clouds, which limits their altitude.

At the very least, if they had a picket out in their rear, they might have picked up those torpedo planes. Even an extra minute, given how fast a kanmusu launches a plane, could improve things significantly.

This is ridiculous. Klashikari's clearly distinguished between when he's referencing game, anime and reality. The one who mingles all together is you.

I've noticed that he tries to alternate between game logic (the Type 0 recce plane having a much higher LOS value than the Type 97) and other logic (such as suggesting that people can get out of the dock) when it is convenient.

Again, since when was it confirmed that the Wo was taiha'd? Ithekro has already pointed out, false estimates happened quite often.

First, they are very very close, too close for a mistaken recognition. If you want to say Fubuki can't really tell, I'm cool, but then she shouldn't have entered Tai-Ha into her report. People make estimates based on what you report, you know.

Klashikari
2015-03-24, 10:48
Okay, I guess this is my final answer because at this rate, it just doesn't go anywhere.
They launched at the same time. If we assume AL is farther away, then MI's strike will go in first and that will be last of the value of the decoy. Even if it is closer, due to the short timings for going everywhere established by the anime, they can't be very much earlierYou are again glossing my point altogether: LAUNCHING at the same time does not mean "attacking" at the same time. Frankly, this point makes me wonder if you are doing it on purpose: operations aren't always put in motion to aim the target immediately after departing from the base. Not only Akagi's fleet had to go to a rendez vous point, but there is absolutely no indication both bases were to be "attacked at the same time". Again, your argument is stuck in the assumption that "if they left the base => directly aiming for their respective target", which has no evidence to support that.She says at a certain timing, they are to open the orders. In the meantime, their old orders to pummel AL are active.Let's assume the orders are to open them past a certain distance? Again, you fail to realize these orders can completely clear the assault on AL even before they reach the vicinity of the island. For all we know, it could be when Junyou and Ryuujou join them. Immediately casting such conclusion before even figuring the actual orders is beyond premature.And they were presumably not supposed to be waiting and waiting for Yamato to show up.And this part was already justified by the episode itself: the situation was irregular, and initiative were to be taken.
Which caused one day emergency repair's worth of damage. Trading three or so days to repair the base (let's not pretend it would be lost) for a bunch of enemy carriers is not bad especially since that's a worst case scenario. If they lose because they were skimpy, the enemy Wos will be able to gain sea superiority and then they will never be able to repair the base.You are making the assumption that a full carrier raid on the base would simply lead to 3 or more days to repair the base... basing on what? We have seen the base tattered like that with a single wo-class, and repair could be conducted because kanmusu at the base were not hurt at all. Again, the naval district is their main base, and if it were to fall, there would be absolutely no way for them to establish a territory unless a new base is built, which can be subject to additional raid. The scale of destruction caused by a single carrier is enough to figure that more of them would simply make base reconstruction quite difficult, especially if there are casualties among the personnel.
Fine. If we pretend the game never existed, the anime will establish the 入渠 as the means of repairing shipgirls and no other means mentioned. We are given a time to repair damage of a carrier from a torpedo (15H). We see a carrier damaged a 2nd time, and that one was longer ... say 2-3x as long from the events, which may be explained by individual circumstances or Akagi having already served part of her "sentence". The story heavily implies they cannot freely move since they fold rabbits and do other things to pass the time in the bath. Further, at 8:15 of Ep8 they will establish Shokaku has finished her 入渠. The time was in the range of a few hours, which is shorter but not grossly so, so there's no justification for insisting they somehow aren't finished.Like I said, leaving the docks often will not make the repair process any faster, so of course, they should have some past times in order not to prolong their repair. Let's not forget that Akagi's repair timer was set on 15h despite she was damaged "the other day", whereas Kaga's timer was set immediately on 30h.
Again, you are obsessing yourself with 入渠 which is only refer to going to the docks. If the simple act of doing so refer to the whole process of repair, it doesn't make any sense for Zuikaku and Shoukaku to leave the docks at the exact same time, since Zuikaku would have finished her repair way before Shoukaku and de facto would have to leave the docks, basing on the assumptions that "once a kanmusu is in the docks, they can't leave" which immediately cast the following assumpion "therefore, once the repair is over, they have to leave". Unless you are pretending that Zuikaku is waiting outside of the repair facility for -hours- just for sake of waiting for her sister.

There is no indication that the kanmusu cannot move in the bath, nor the bath "cell" lock them inside. You are again ignoring the fact Fubuki could enter in a bath despite she has absolutely no damage when she encountered Atago. With this point and the obvious differences in term of bath configuration in the anime, there is absolutely nothing that confirm the "cannot leave the docks before the repairs are over" argument, which is only backed up by the assumption the repair mechanics are the same as in the game.
I don't want to dismiss Yamato's firepower, but her armor and survivability are also part of her virtues. If the enemy peck at her, everyone else can attack freely, so she's still performing her function.

Besides, Nagato said that before Yamato announced herself to the world. If we think that didn't bust her and we must not use her during defensive operations against enemy carriers approaching Truk ... one girl is easy to hide.Yamato is not supposed to receive the brunt of the attacks whatsoever. That's like asking for your best offensive asset to take every damage around and having your less optimal offensive ships to do the rest of the job.
No matter how sturdy Yamato is, it is meaningless if she is the main target of the enemy task force, which was demonstrated quite well with the original Musashi and Yamato's fates. Likewise, it is the same in the game: Yamato is primarily used as a sturdy trump card, but if the enemy fleet kep targetting her, she will be in chuuha/taiha in no time, which will decrease your fleet performance by a major dive. I can testify that most of my event final maps that involve failure in the boss node is half because girls attacks the wrong targets, and half of the time because my best assets were the target of a major focus fire.
Their comfortable lives strongly imply that it isn't like their supply lines are being strangled. Any supply difficulties are due to an overly aggressive tempo and while the Abyssals can sting, they are overall winning.Buckets. And Tone never mentioned the state of their ammunition and bauxite. They already had plenty fuel and steel, and that's about it.
Can't bring the game back in just when it is convenient :-) 100km is about 5%. It is not significant.I've noticed that he tries to alternate between game logic (the Type 0 recce plane having a much higher LOS value than the Type 97) and other logic (such as suggesting that people can get out of the dock) when it is convenient.Excuse me? The whole point was to give you the primary problem I have with your implication that "yeah, a 97 is fine!" despite it has shortcoming BOTH in reality and in the game. Not only the IJN doctrine would stop Akagi to deploy an additional plane like that, 100km in term of distance is no laughing matter, moreso when it is required for reconnaissance in enemy territory. I find your remark quite hyprocritical when you are the one conveniently using real history parts for decisions "issues" (such expecting Akagi to prevent Midway just because she saw glimpses of a dream) and "games" arguments when it comes to other points like repair (which are established as "not fully the same in the anime" by several examples). In both cases, you are conveniently cherry picking your points for your assesments. I believe I didn't presented "only history arguments" and "only game arguments" here, as I considered the anime series with its own setup from the very beginning.
If we were to check again my answers, the vast majority of my "game explanations" are in reponse to yours: you were the one mentioning the game for the repair, and claiming that "both in reality and the game, you can use type 97 for recon" despite it isn't the case.
Since you said I shouldn't use the game, we are left with reality as a external reference. So, we have a destroyer, armed with a 5-inch gun, Heavily Damaging a carrier with one shell (not torpedo, gun). You tell me if there is something forced about this :-)No, we cannot exactly because the girls aren't scaled to what happened in reality. We already have demonstrations in reality AND in the game that DD can deal substancial damage to larger vessels -without- their torpedoes (this is even more true in the game, for obvious reasons). This tangent can be justified even moreso in the franchise because they are -not- ships, and there are enough evidences that the anime follows more often the game than the reality, while keeping a coherent setup to avoid clunky stuff like "only 1 shelling phase without a BB". Game mechanics are loosely followed so the anime has its own set of rules, while still refering to the original material. Past that, all of us gamers already agreed early on the game can't even be used as reference for everything in the anime, starting with Kisaragi sinking due to a single bomb.

Kakurin
2015-03-24, 11:00
If you want to say Fubuki can't really tell, I'm cool, but then she shouldn't have entered Tai-Ha into her report. People make estimates based on what you report, you know.
The Japanese reported numerous times that an American carrier has been sunk despite not *actually* witnessing the ship going down. Fubuki and the others saw the Wo with an eye injury and *assumed* that she was taiha'd, which from their perspective might be right, since they are more human and thus for them an eye injury is taiha, whereas the Abyssals are more cyborg / machine. I don't see how you can blame Fubuki for entering that assumption into the report. Again sounds like cherrypicking for specifically blaming Fubuki.

arkhangelsk
2015-03-24, 11:31
Like Klashikari, I don't think I can come up with a creative argument this round that would convince my stubborn opposition. Since I'm sure such feelings are mutual, I'll call this my last too :-)

The Japanese reported numerous times that an American carrier has been sunk despite not *actually* witnessing the ship going down.

That's not supposed to be a good part. And Fubuki has a much closer and calmer look than most of those Japanese you mention.

Fubuki and the others saw the Wo with an eye injury and *assumed* that she was taiha'd, which from their perspective might be right, since they are more human and thus for them an eye injury is taiha, whereas the Abyssals are more cyborg / machine. I don't see how you can blame Fubuki for entering that assumption into the report. Again sounds like cherrypicking for specifically blaming Fubuki.

So your solution is that it was actually more a Shoha, but Fubuki did not really know what she was talking about and got overly impressed by the eye damage? I'll applaud that this is actually a plausible in-universe (Watsonian) solution, though IMO it really still doesn't excuse the authors.

Even if I assume that's what they were shooting for ... really, I think I'll be happier they ruled that Fubuki shot the eye (the only part she could control, so the fact she did a Shoha is no discredit to her), realized it was really a Shoha, and wrote it in the report as such.

Ithekro
2015-03-24, 16:45
On a standard fleet carrier of that time...

A five inch shell hits either the bridge or the hanger deck just in front of the bridge. If they are that close a five inch shell could go through what armor might be there. The unarmored flightdeck gets damaged from the shell blowing up inside the hanger and possibly putting shrapnel into the bridge. The other way puts a hole in the bridge. This is followed by a massive torpedo spread that is intercepted by a brave heavy cruiser, which is sunk by doing so.

Now there is a lone carrier with enemy units on one side and a squall on the other. The flight deck or bridge is damaged. A call for retreat is advisible.

If we take Abyssal repairs to be like Allied repairs (to keep with the repeating tragady theme) than that Wo will be repaired enough to get the flight deck or bridge functional ina very short period of time. She will still be damaged, but functional in a way that would be more than expected by the shipgirls. (Such is the nature of having superior damage control teams). Basically the Wo took a crit that did lots of damage, but if she has damage control, she goes up a set or so without needing to go home. This would also fit with any allusion to them being the Yorktowns.

Xero8420
2015-03-24, 20:31
^
Oh yeah, right. Revenge of the Wo-class flagship. Probably she wanted to seek revenge against Fubuki for getting shot right into the eye. :heh: