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Archilla
2015-05-10, 11:11
Hello and welcome to the High School DxD Light Novel Feats Resource/Discussion thread!

You're probably confused as to what this is. This thread is a place to discuss, discover, and eventually catalogue the recorded, provable, and implied strengths/speeds/abilities/weaknesses/victories of characters, and a place to use this info to ask the age-old question: "Who wins?"

The intention of having this thread (and not just lumping it into the Powers thread) is to create our very own separate, updated, and non-suffocating version of something like the VS Wiki. Something people can reference and use as a resource for discussion.

For instance; if you'd like to talk about how cool the Fairy Wyverns are, or what Issei's next power will be, the Powers thread is the best bet. If you want to talk about how much damage you think Longinus Smasher can do, or want to help us figure out how fast Vali really is, come on in.

Ideally, this thread will eventually have updated posts for various characters that people can check to see what their best determined strength/abilities are.

If this is your kinda thread, hop in!

MOD EDIT: And now the thread rules:
As this is a source material thread, it is expected that you should be reasonably caught up to the latest source material when participating. However, if spoiling major plot points that others may not yet have read, please be considerate and use properly-labelled spoiler tags that indicate to the reader whether it's safe to open the tag. Spoiler tags with no label are not allowed!

Please stay on-topic.
No shipping talk
No pointless chatter
No posting raws or source illustrations
No posting translations of the source itself
No asking about when translations will be done
No posts only to update people about translation status (or to just say that something's "out")
No posts only to thank translators (please us PM or VM instead)


If you want to discuss a related topic, please feel free to request another thread be created about that topic.

Archilla
2015-05-10, 11:17
Issei Hyoudou


Destructive Capability: Island+ Busting

We came to this conclusion based off of Issei's Kyoto busting and destabilling of Dimension Lost feat, and subsequent powered up versions of his Dragon Blaster, namely Crimson Blaster and Longinus Smasher. This conclusion does not factor in Issei's highest possible boost multiplier potential, but instead assumes a moderate amount. As such, this is not Issei's highest theoretical damage output, but rather his highest reasonable damage.

Hk1117
2015-05-10, 11:19
Vali wins, hands down. Ise still isn't a threat to him at this point. Though I wager it'll be slightly more even a match if they fight in their current states.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 11:28
Vali wins, hands down. Ise still isn't a threat to him at this point. Though I wager it'll be slightly more even a match if they fight in their current states.

That's only if Vali manages to hit Ise while on EJOD. If Ise manages to avoid his attacks, after a few seconds Vali would be exhausted and Ise wins.

Archilla
2015-05-10, 11:30
Vali wins, hands down. Ise still isn't a threat to him at this point. Though I wager it'll be slightly more even a match if they fight in their current states.

While I agree that Vali is more powerful, we really need to see what LS can do before we can accurately gauge where they're both at.

Also, this isn't a solely Issei vs. Vali thread btw. It's for everyone and everything.

Hk1117
2015-05-10, 11:33
That's only if Vali manages to hit Ise while on EJOD. If Ise manages to avoid his attacks, after a few seconds Vali would be exhausted and Ise wins.

you know that is a big fucking IF, right?

Archilla
2015-05-10, 11:37
you know that is a big fucking IF, right?

We've got practically no info on EJOD. We know it insta-stomped a dude once, and that's it. Compression Divider is pretty much still a mystery. It's even less well defined than LS.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 11:43
What GDK1 said.

But hey, do you guys think the Super-Devils are stronger than the Heavenly Dragons (at their prime of course)? Because, from what I remember from V16, Crom had a much more menacing aura than Rizevim, but we also know from the spoilers from V18 that Rizevim has a "split" personality where he's child-like most of the time, but gets serious when something "big" happens, like Ise punching him with a SG ability even though he can cancel SG-related abilities... Man this is confusing. lol (haven't read it myself, so can't say much)

Archilla
2015-05-10, 11:47
What GDK1 said.

But hey, do you guys think the Super-Devils are stronger than the Heavenly Dragons (at their prime of course)?

Hard to say. True Form Sirzechs has gotten serious lipservice, but Ddraig and Albion keep pulling hax abilities out of nowhere. We'll probably find out at the end of this arc. I'm seeing a 3-way super devil BRAWL.

ImperialFlameGod8190
2015-05-10, 13:17
What GDK1 said.

But hey, do you guys think the Super-Devils are stronger than the Heavenly Dragons (at their prime of course)? Because, from what I remember from V16, Crom had a much more menacing aura than Rizevim, but we also know from the spoilers from V18 that Rizevim has a "split" personality where he's child-like most of the time, but gets serious when something "big" happens, like Ise punching him with a SG ability even though he can cancel SG-related abilities... Man this is confusing. lol (haven't read it myself, so can't say much)

The heavenly dragons in their prime are superior to the super-devils. Without knowing much about the dragons original powers you have to look at the fact that these guys fighting was enough trouble that they had to be split up like that. Rizevim is powerful to be sure but his SG canceller would be useless against original Ddriag and Albion. And if u assume that Boost and divide are original abilities and they can be used infinitely i'd say they'd lose almost guaranteed.

No doubt the Super Devils are powerful but considering that we're talking original power Ddraig and Albion are fierce.

Seafoam
2015-05-10, 13:50
The heavenly dragons in their prime are superior to the super-devils. Without knowing much about the dragons original powers you have to look at the fact that these guys fighting was enough trouble that they had to be split up like that. Rizevim is powerful to be sure but his SG canceller would be useless against original Ddriag and Albion. And if u assume that Boost and divide are original abilities and they can be used infinitely i'd say they'd lose almost guaranteed.

No doubt the Super Devils are powerful but considering that we're talking original power Ddraig and Albion are fierce.

But was that the current Maou or the old ones that were stopping them? If it was the previous, then there's nothing to base that upon considering Sirzechs is 100x stronger than them.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 13:59
But was that the current Maou or the old ones that were stopping them? If it was the previous, then there's nothing to base that upon considering Sirzechs is 100x stronger than them.

Sirzechs is actually 10x stronger than the Original Lucifer (Or was it the 4 original Maou combined?) according to Hades. But yeah, we never saw a Super-Devil fight seriously, the same way we never say a Heavenly Dragon fight seriously, so comparing both is just speculation. (I say that even when I'm the one who asked first, I'm that consistent lol)

Before someone think of mentioning Fenrir, I refuse to believe he was as strong as a Heavenly Dragon and wasn't able to kill one single person in V7.

Seafoam
2015-05-10, 14:08
Sirzechs is actually 10x stronger than the Original Lucifer (Or was it the 4 original Maou combined?) according to Hades. But yeah, we never saw a Super-Devil fight seriously, the same way we never say a Heavenly Dragon fight seriously, so comparing both is just speculation. (I say that even when I'm the one who asked first, I'm that consistent lol)

Before someone think of mentioning Fenrir, I refuse to believe he was as strong as a Heavenly Dragon and wasn't able to kill one single person in V7.

It was either 10 or 100 I'm not sure. And the only reason Fenrir is considered that level is probably because of his threat level, not his actual strength.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 14:13
It was either 10 or 100 I'm not sure. And the only reason Fenrir is considered that level is probably because of his threat level, not his actual strength.

It was actually said in the LN he rivals the Heavenly Dragons in their Prime. The worst mistake Ishibumi ever did.

Tbolt
2015-05-10, 14:18
The proof in the Dragons being the strongest was already in the LN, the three powers had to stop the war to deal with the two Dragons. If there was one person who could have delt with the two Dragons that person would have taken care of the problem.

Royalknightftw
2015-05-10, 14:43
It was actually said in the LN he rivals the Heavenly Dragons in their Prime. The worst mistake Ishibumi ever did.

I believe Fenrir does, he took down Tannin who is a dragon king in just a matter of second. Look, Fenrir is not as destructive as Ddraig or Albion, however it is as dangerous as Heavenly Dragons, no doubt about it. The reason why fenrir looked weak in the LN is because Gleipnir

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 14:47
I believe Fenrir does, he took down Tannin who is a dragon king in just a matter of second. Look, Fenrir is not as destructive as Ddraig or Albion, however it is as dangerous as Heavenly Dragons, no doubt about it. The reason why fenrir looked weak in the LN is because Gleipnir

There was no Gleipnir in the first fight. If Ise can match his speed with a burst of rage and manage to land a hit on him that would make him stop, then he's not as strong as a Heavenly Dragon.

Royalknightftw
2015-05-10, 15:02
There was no Gleipnir in the first fight. If Ise can match his speed with a burst of rage and manage to land a hit on him that would make him stop, then he's not as strong as a Heavenly Dragon.

It was pure accident, he knew the person he loved most was in danger thus his feelings managed to give him "powerup" for a moment (Not even normal Ddraig could pull that kind of stunt). Bet issei could not do the same thing again. There was Azazel, Baraqiel, even Odin in that fight,all of them are experienced fighters but not one of them could react when Fenrir tried to kill Rias.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 15:10
It was pure accident, he knew the person he loved most was in danger thus his feelings managed to give him "powerup" for a moment (Not even normal Ddraig could pull that kind of stunt). Bet issei could not do the same thing again. There was Azazel, Baraqiel, even Odin in that fight,all of them are experienced fighters but not one of them could react when Fenrir tried to kill Rias.

So a burst of strenght out of despair can make Ise move faster Heavenly Dragon? No way in hell that can happen, he moved far faster than normal, yes, but moving at the speed of a being in the Top 10 Strongest is complete bullshit. Even having Asia die couldn't unlock a complete JD, only an incomplete one.

Two HD caused 3 whole armies of super-powerful beings join forces to seal them.

Fenrir was hyped as being as strong as them, but never did anything that was as impressive as that.

Royalknightftw
2015-05-10, 15:22
So a burst of strenght out of despair can make Ise move faster Heavenly Dragon? No way in hell that can happen, he moved far faster than normal, yes, but moving at the speed of a being in the Top 10 Strongest is complete bullshit. Even having Asia die couldn't unlock a complete JD, only an incomplete one.

Two HD caused 3 whole armies of super-powerful beings join forces to seal them.

Fenrir was hyped as being as strong as them, but never did anything that was as impressive as that.

Well yeah, this is a series where "feeling" overcomes anything. Maybe even ddraig never realized his full power. Lets say an unsealed ddraig could match fenrir's speed, does that mean ddraig can beat fenrir?? Probably no

Fenrir was under Loki's control so it could not run amok as two HD did and there was Gleipnir, specially created to immobilize it.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 15:30
Well yeah, this is a series where "feeling" overcomes anything. Maybe even ddraig never realized his full power. Lets say an unsealed ddraig could match fenrir's speed, does that mean ddraig can beat fenrir?? Probably no

Fenrir was under Loki's control so it could not run amok as two HD did and there was Gleipnir, specially created to immobilize it.
Like I said, there was no Gleipnir in the first fight. And if feelings were that powerful Ise would have curbstomped Sairaorg in half a second. And yes Ddraig could curbstomp Fenrir like he was nothing. He's half the reason the 3 Great Factions of Christianity stopped fighting and joined forces for once. Fenrir couldn't kill a bunch of teenagers when he's supposed to have thousands of years of battle experience.

Royalknightftw
2015-05-10, 16:14
Like I said, there was no Gleipnir in the first fight. And if feelings were that powerful Ise would have curbstomped Sairaorg in half a second. And yes Ddraig could curbstomp Fenrir like he was nothing. He's half the reason the 3 Great Factions of Christianity stopped fighting and joined forces for once. Fenrir couldn't kill a bunch of teenagers when he's supposed to have thousands of years of battle experience.

Was Rias's life in danger during Sairaorg's fight ?? Nope
Like i said earlier, Fenrir never ran amok and if it did and Gleipnir never existed then who knows ?? Half of Gods of norse would have probably been in Fenrir's belly
Sounds like you added Anime version here, most of the time in second fight it was immobilized by Gleipnir, once it was set free for a moment it blietzkrieged Tannin and Vali in just a minute. It took JD, Excalibur ruler, and Gleipnir to subdue Fenrir.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 16:26
Was Rias's life in danger during Sairaorg's fight ?? Nope
Like i said earlier, Fenrir never ran amok and if it did and Gleipnir never existed then who knows ?? Half of Gods of norse would have probably been in Fenrir's belly
Sounds like you added Anime version here, most of the time in second fight it was immobilized by Gleipnir, once it was set free for a moment it blietzkrieged Tannin and Vali in just a minute. It took JD, Excalibur ruler, and Gleipnir to subdue Fenrir.

He was far more emotional in that fight than any other time in the series except for JD. And if the emotions from actually losing Asia can't break the seal put on Ddraig completely, Fenrir going for Rias would never make him able to reach an HD level speed without even activating JD.

And you seem to ignore that he was stopped by Ise when there was no Gleipnir around. He isn't half as strong as what the HDs are said to be. He couldn't kill a bunch of teenagers when he was at top notch condition.

Do you know what it took to seal two HDs? 3 OF THE STRONGEST FACTIONS IN THE WORLD. He's not as strong as an HD. Period.

Royalknightftw
2015-05-10, 16:51
He was far more emotional in that fight than any other time in the series except for JD. And if the emotions from actually losing Asia can't break the seal put on Ddraig completely, Fenrir going for Rias would never make him able to reach an HD level speed without even activating JD.

And you seem to ignore that he was stopped by Ise when there was no Gleipnir around. He isn't half as strong as what the HDs are said to be. He couldn't kill a bunch of teenagers when he was at top notch condition.

Do you know what it took to seal two HDs? 3 OF THE STRONGEST FACTIONS IN THE WORLD. He's not as strong as an HD. Period.

IMO issei's feeling for protecting someone is lets say stronger than the feeling of revenge. Regarding Sairaorg's fight, for the readers yes it seemed more emotional but for issei himself, i bet the incident in vol 7 when rias was about to get killed is far more emotional for Issei (at least for a moment).

Top notch condition? do you mean being ordered around by someone who is cocky as hell is in top notch condition? You realized if Loki did not pull out in the first fight due to his arrogance , ALL gremory team including Odin, Azazel, and Baraqiel would have been kaput

Strongest factions ?? each three of them ?? where did you get that info ??

Archilla
2015-05-10, 16:58
Wow haha, this thread got popular fast! I'll be posting the first feat discussion, Issei's Destructive Capability, later tonight.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 17:05
IMO issei's feeling for protecting someone is lets say stronger than the feeling of revenge. Regarding Sairaorg's fight, for the readers yes it seemed more emotional but for issei himself, i bet the incident in vol 7 when rias was about to get killed is far more emotional for Issei (at least for a moment).

Top notch condition? do you mean being ordered around by someone who is cocky as hell is in top notch condition? You realized if Loki did not pull out in the first fight due to his arrogance , ALL gremory team including Odin, Azazel, and Baraqiel would have been kaput

Strongest factions ?? each three of them ?? where did you get that info ??
Ise got over the trauma that was haunting him for months and finnally stated his love for Rias out loud. That was waaaay bigger than saving her emotionally-wise.
And I repeat something you are just ignoring, Asia's "actual death" didn't manage to give Ise the strenght of a HD, how could a threat to Rias give him the strenght to stop such a being without any consequences?

He was as strong as he could be, being ordered around or not doesn't make him weaker.

I never said they were THE 3 strongest factions. I said they were 3 OF the strongest factions. God of the Bible (For sure) and the Old Maou (Not so sure about them but I think Ishibumi said they were also) were said to be in the top 10 strongest beings when alive. They were actually feared by most factions aside from the Hindu Gods, to a point where the current leaders hid their deaths so that other Factions wouldn't attack them.

Krudelu
2015-05-10, 18:19
Wow haha, this thread got popular fast! I'll be posting the first feat discussion, Issei's Destructive Capability, later tonight.

Heres some DC i confirmed at least for now:

Volume 5: mountain level (probably the typical average mountain or a little smaller or bigger))
volume 9: city level (at least Kyoto size) or probably more since they were inside the dimension created by Dimension Lost that time. And it also caused some distortion to the dimension on the top of city busting.

atm I can't confirm exactly how strong is crimson dragon blaster from his CCQ but i think its at least stronger than welsh bishop's dragon blaster. For now I can assume that its at least beyond city level but not country level or multi city level since I actually have no proof on that one atm. For Longinus Smashher, the one I can confirm is that its able to turn sky red but the problem is the affected range so I'm pretty unsure abut it as well.

well gl quantifying Issei's DC in details tonight ;)

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 18:33
Is there a numerical value as standard to qualify country-busting? Because someone being able to blow up Japan doesn't mean he or she can do the same to Russia or China for example.

Krudelu
2015-05-10, 19:48
Is there a numerical value as standard to qualify country-busting? Because someone being able to blow up Japan doesn't mean he or she can do the same to Russia or China for example.

I think numerical value varies if trying to qualify country-busting. Guess we'll have to state if its small-country, medium-country, or large-country then.

It'll be better if we can at least mention destructive capability as big as what country to figure out in what level is it country-busting since countries vary in sizes after all.

Hk1117
2015-05-10, 20:33
We've got practically no info on EJOD. We know it insta-stomped a dude once, and that's it. Compression Divider is pretty much still a mystery. It's even less well defined than LS.

Implying Vali needs EJOD to beat Ise. Even Sun Wukong, though acknowledging Ise's strong points, implied that Vali would win in a straight fight if they fought.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 20:42
Implying Vali needs EJOD to beat Ise. Even Sun Wukong, though acknowledging Ise's strong points, implied that Vali would win in a straight fight if they fought.

That was including EJOD. In the same part of the Volume, Vali said Ise's CCQ was superior than his EJOD overall since it was far more stable even if the power output was far lower. It's easier to control, so Ise would have his own advantage while Vali would only have more demonic power.
IIRC It was also said that in terms of physical prowess (Strenght, speed, reflexes and etc) Ise is better than Vali when talking about their base forms.

And if Vali didn't use EJOD, he'd lose for sure, his BB is weaker than Ise's CCQ.

I don't disagree with the fact Vali would win right now, it's 99.999% sure he would. But the fight wouldn't be a curbstomp. It'd be really close since they both have their own advantages torwards the other.

Hk1117
2015-05-10, 20:45
That was including EJOD. In the same part of the Volume, Vali said Ise's CCQ was superior than his EJOD overall since it was far more stable even if the power output was far lower. It's easier to control, so Ise would have his own advantage while Vali would only have more demonic power.
IIRC It was also said that in terms of physical prowess (Strenght, speed, reflexes and etc) Ise is better than Vali when talking about their base forms.

And if Vali didn't use EJOD, he'd lose for sure, his BB is weaker than Ise's CCQ.

I don't disagree with the fact Vali would win right now, it's 99.999% sure he would. But the fight wouldn't be a curbstomp. It'd be really close since they both have their own advantages torwards the other.

Never said it would be a curbstomp.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 20:49
Then I misunderstood your first comment, sorry. :P

Hk1117
2015-05-10, 20:58
it's cool. :heh:

Parry999
2015-05-10, 21:45
Fenrir couldn't kill a bunch of teenagers when he's supposed to have thousands of years of battle experience. The heavenly dragons couldn't kill kokapuffs and azazel who both got owned by teenagers I wonder how big really was there so called epic rampage?

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 21:55
The heavenly dragons couldn't kill kokapuffs and azazel who both got owned by teenagers I wonder how big really was there so called epic rampage?

When did Azazel get owned by teenagers? The only one I can recall is Cao Cao who managed to keep up with him only, and said he'd lose for sure if they fought a second time. And Kokabiel got owned by Vali, who is so overpowered it's not even funny. Azazel said Ise wouldn't beat him doesn't matter how much he boosted.

The HD were cornered by 3 whole armies of Fallen Angels, Devils, Angels, God, and the Original Maou. you can't possibly compare that to less than a dozen Devils, a Valkyrie, a Fallen Angel, one Angel and two Dragon Kings.

Parry999
2015-05-10, 22:25
When did Azazel get owned by teenagers? The only one I can recall is Cao Cao who managed to keep up with him only, and said he'd lose for sure if they fought a second time. And Kokabiel got owned by Vali, who is so overpowered it's not even funny. Azazel said Ise wouldn't beat him doesn't matter how much he boosted.

The HD were cornered by 3 whole armies of Fallen Angels, Devils, Angels, God, and the Original Maou. you can't possibly compare that to less than a dozen Devils, a Valkyrie, a Fallen Angel, one Angel and two Dragon Kings. Azazel got owned by Cao cao twice he was being humble you really think the current ise couldn't beat azazel easy. The guy lost an arm to Katerea:heh:. That super OP guy couldn't beat Azi dahaka Kokapuffs is really weak for his thousands of years of experience.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 22:40
Azazel got owned by Cao cao twice he was being humble you really think the current ise couldn't beat azazel easy. The guy lost an arm to Katerea:heh:. That super OP guy couldn't beat Azi dahaka Kokapuffs is really weak for his thousands of years of experience.

Azi Dahaka mastered over a thousand magic and is stronger than Dragon Kings. That means he's above an average Maou.

Azazel didn't get owned twice, he and Cao Cao fought on even ground in V9. And being humble? Yeah right, Cao Cao lost because of his arrogance. Besides, he has the most OP weapon in the world, and is the descendant of one of the greatest strategists of China.

Kokabiel lost because Vali caught him off guard and divided his power by half multiple times.

Ise could never beat Azazel as he is now. Azazel is the type of guy who prepares himself beforehand for any of the enemy's skills, he could just find a way to counter Ise's attacks easily.

Parry999
2015-05-10, 22:54
Azi Dahaka mastered over a thousand magic and is stronger than Dragon Kings. That means he's above an average Maou.

Azazel didn't get owned twice, he and Cao Cao fought on even ground in V9. And being humble? Yeah right, Cao Cao lost because of his arrogance. Besides, he has the most OP weapon in the world, and is the descendant of one of the greatest strategists of China.

Kokabiel lost because Vali caught him off guard and divided his power by half multiple times.

Ise could never beat Azazel as he is now. Azazel is the type of guy who prepares himself beforehand for any of the enemy's skills, he could just find a way to counter Ise's attacks easily.

Azazel was in balance breaker cao cao wasn't when he got knocked down. He later lost again in v 11 to cao cao he also was struggling against pluto, his the Kakashi of Dxd cool personality but mid tier. What am saying is despite there 1000s of years of experience the fallen angels are really weak I don't even know how they survived the war.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 23:10
Azazel was in balance breaker cao cao wasn't when he got knocked down. He later lost again in v 11 to cao cao he also was struggling against pluto, his the Kakashi of Dxd cool personality but mid tier. What am saying is despite there 1000s of years of experience the fallen angels are really weak I don't even know how they survived the war.

Pluto is God level in strength. Just struggling is already a feat.
Fallen Angels aren't weak, they are the same as Devils and Angels.

Cao Cao has the most OP weapon in the DxD-verse which is as effective as Fenrir's fangs, what did you expect? And even with that he'd lose if he faced Azazel a third time, Azazel's true strength is his wits and tactics. He's more like a watered down version of Kurotsuchi from Bleach.

Parry999
2015-05-10, 23:25
Pluto is God level in strength. Just struggling is already a feat.
Fallen Angels aren't weak, they are the same as Devils and Angels.

Cao Cao has the most OP weapon in the DxD-verse which is as effective as Fenrir's fangs, what did you expect? And even with that he'd lose if he faced Azazel a third time, Azazel's true strength is his wits and tactics. He's more like a watered down version of Kurotsuchi from Bleach.

Do you have anything from the Ln that says Plutos god level? Cao caos feats argue heavly in caos caos favor of being a better tactician just look at the ladon fight.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-10, 23:28
Do you have anything from the Ln that says Plutos god level? Cao caos feats argue heavly in caos caos favor of being a better tactician just look at the ladon fight.
High-Class Grim Reapers are as strong as Ultimate-Class Devils. Pluto is a Ultimate-Class GR as well as Hades right hand.man, and his Roman counterpart in the original mythology.

How making a hole makes him a better tactician than Azazel?

kusabireika
2015-05-10, 23:37
High-Class Grim Reapers are as strong as Ultimate-Class Devils. Pluto is a Ultimate-Class GR as well as Hades right hand.man, and his Roman counterpart in the original mythology.

How making a hole makes him a better tactician than Azazel?

Cao Cao said it himself when issei ask him if he can beat Azazel in future battles again he said he can't because Azazel Technique "Scientist Type" who will research their opponent/enemy till his plan will be flawless :heehee:

Edit: just added this in the discussion ^^V :blush:

Tbolt
2015-05-10, 23:41
Hey kusabireika good to see you.

kusabireika
2015-05-10, 23:52
Hey kusabireika good to see you.

Yup miss you too and everybody :blush:

I wonder how strong is Shemaza "Azazel's Right hand man" ^^?

Parry999
2015-05-10, 23:55
High-Class Grim Reapers are as strong as Ultimate-Class Devils. Pluto is a Ultimate-Class GR as well as Hades right hand.man, and his Roman counterpart in the original mythology.

How making a hole makes him a better tactician than Azazel? But his not a god in dxd Sun wukong is training vali and ise to fight god class's if vali can already beat them it be redundant I say his satan level. Azazels never come up with a plan to beat an evil dragon yet has he? Cao cao has.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 00:02
But his not a god in dxd Sun wukong is training vali and ise to fight god class's if vali can already beat them it be redundant I say his satan level. Azazels never come up with a plan to beat an evil dragon yet has? Cao cao has.
Vali is God-Class during EJOD. That's confirmed in V16 or V17. But he can only keep it for a few seconds, so it's not very useful in a life or death fight without the surprise effect, so he needs to train to stabilize it.
Azazel was the one who came up with a plan to defeat Crom Cruach, it didn't work only because he trained to the point he's as strong as a Heavenly Dragon.

B214
2015-05-11, 00:07
“Yes, Bennia is a Grim Reaper. Even though I said that, she is a Demigod. Half Grim Reaper and half human.” (Volume 14)

Just Ignore me and continue your discussion.

jopjopjop
2015-05-11, 00:07
Azazel was the one who came up with a plan to defeat Crom Cruach, it didn't work only because he trained to the point he's as strong as a Heavenly Dragon.

What plan?

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 00:11
What plan?

That thing with the mystic bazooka and Fafnir in V16. I may be confusing things but something like that.

Parry999
2015-05-11, 00:13
That thing with the mystic bazooka and Fafnir in V16. I may be confusing things but something like that. It still failed. Like how Azazel always does poor dude.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 00:17
It still failed. Like how Azazel always does poor dude.

Yeah, always. Please tell me when a plan of his failed besides that time.

Parry999
2015-05-11, 00:21
Yeah, always. Please tell me when a plan of his failed besides that time. He hasn't won a single note worthy fight since volume 4. His plan to be lazy with ise and get tannin to unlock his balance breaker so he wouldn't have also failed. His teaching tatics for ise and rias I dont agree with.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 00:31
He hasn't won a single note worthy fight since volume 4. His plan to be lazy with ise and get tannin to unlock his balance breaker so he wouldn't have also failed. His teaching tatics for ise and rias I dont agree with.
Yeah, it didn't work because Ise is the Oppai Dragon. And without that training, Ise wouldn't have been able to unlock BB, so it still worked even if it needed something else.
You disagreeing with it doesn't mean squat.

Archilla
2015-05-11, 00:31
Alright gang! It's time for the Feats Disussion on...

Issei's Destructive Capability!

First, some notes. Some have asked about the quantifiable numbers in terms of damage. The VS wiki has a good listing of the rules of thumb for output required to destroy X and thus put a character in said category: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_Potency. This'll be hard to apply to DxD, but it can help us roughly quantify once we've determined a tier. Second, my intention here is to start a discussion that gets us as close to an accurate consensus.

Iku ze!

To begin, we start with Issei's Highest Explicit Feat. This, as of Volume 18, is his destruction of Dimension Lost's replica of Kyoto and the subsequent destabilization of the dimension with a single firing of [Dragon Blaster]. This, unequivocally, puts Issei at Large City+ Buster. Now, the obvious question comes from the Mountain busting feat from Volume 5. Not only does Issei reportedly bust a mountain in this feat, he does so accidentally. This is hard to qualify with our Kyoto feat, as [Dragon Shot] is a far weaker version of the shot that destroyed Kyoto. Either we reconcile this as hyperbole, or as I infer, that the Kyoto blast is much stronger than a city level explosion. More on that later however, as we can leave it for the powerscaling section.

SPEAKING OF THAT! Time for some P-P-P-P-Powerscaling!

The obvious first case for Issei's powerleveling is CCQ. If Triana can destroy a city casually, [Crimson Blaster] is obviously much stronger. And then after that, we have Longinus Smasher, which has no defined maximum power. What we do know however, is that CCQ's power boost brought Issei from being completely ineffective against Sairaorg's Balance Breaker to matching and overcoming it. In my opinion, the boost from CB>LS is at least a two-step boost. This would put Issei at an Island Buster. While him being higher is possible, we can't reach that at the moment without more stretched powerscaling or more feats.

Finally, we come to lipservice. Better known as Character Statements. I keep seeing that Issei has been stated to be equal to Serafall, but for the love of me I can't remember that. Anyone have any input on that?

Well, let's start the discussion!

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 00:37
Ise equal to Serafall? My memory sucks, but I'm pretty sure such comparison was never made in canon or by the author.

If the girls were in danger, I bet he'd go all the way to Continent-buster.

Archilla
2015-05-11, 00:38
Ise equal to Serafall? My memory sucks, but I'm pretty sure such comparison was never made in canon or by the author.

If the girls were in danger, I bet he'd go all the way to Continent-buster.

It's all over his VS wiki page. I can't find anything on it.

Parry999
2015-05-11, 00:40
^ Well Sona said Serafall could easily destroy a small country like japan. She also froze a section of the under world in v12
Yeah, it didn't work because Ise is the Oppai Dragon. And without that training, Ise wouldn't have been able to unlock BB, so it still worked even if it needed something else.
You disagreeing with it doesn't mean squat. But no one know he was truly an Oppai dragon till that moment :heh:

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 00:43
But no one know he was truly an Oppai dragon till that moment :heh:

I meant that it didn't work because Ise's breakthrough had to do with breasts since he's such a perv. He already pulled that Crazy Awesome stunt in Volume 4.

Krudelu
2015-05-11, 00:48
I don't think the mountain busting feat in volume 5 is a hyperbole according to the context:

[You don’t need that long. —Look, stick out your hand, and try firing a magic bullet like usual.]
Following Ddraig’s instructions, I stuck out my hand and aimed at Koneko-chan’s onee-san.
Doh! It fired in an instant! It passed right by onee-san and went far into the forest.
The next moment—. A red flash unfolded.
Doddoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooon!
The roar of an explosion ran from far away, and the blast even reached all the way here!
……Eh? ……What? I couldn’t react to this sudden event.
The poison mist was blown away by the blast from the attack and dispersed.
“Hahahaha! It’s been a long time since I’ve seen that red blast! Hyoudou Issei! An entire mountain far away from here completely vanished just now! Also, the barrier covering this area has been blown off as well!”
Tannin-ossan said that from the sky above
A mountain!? An entire mountain vanished!? I didn’t even fire it with particularly doubled power!?

If we're talking about the mountain he busted, it may be hard to assume it but I think its around the average mountain size or maybe smaller (probably some mountains arent even at least a mile in area)

Archilla
2015-05-11, 00:54
I don't think the mountain busting feat in volume 5 is a hyperbole according to the context:

[You don’t need that long. —Look, stick out your hand, and try firing a magic bullet like usual.]
Following Ddraig’s instructions, I stuck out my hand and aimed at Koneko-chan’s onee-san.
Doh! It fired in an instant! It passed right by onee-san and went far into the forest.
The next moment—. A red flash unfolded.
Doddoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooon!
The roar of an explosion ran from far away, and the blast even reached all the way here!
……Eh? ……What? I couldn’t react to this sudden event.
The poison mist was blown away by the blast from the attack and dispersed.
“Hahahaha! It’s been a long time since I’ve seen that red blast! Hyoudou Issei! An entire mountain far away from here completely vanished just now! Also, the barrier covering this area has been blown off as well!”
Tannin-ossan said that from the sky above
A mountain!? An entire mountain vanished!? I didn’t even fire it with particularly doubled power!?

If we're talking about the mountain he busted, it may be hard to assume it but I think its around the average mountain size or maybe smaller

I agree. My conclusion is that Dragon Blaster is simply far stronger than Kyoto busting.

Krudelu
2015-05-11, 01:03
I agree. My conclusion is that Dragon Blaster is simply far stronger than Kyoto busting.


"Disappear! Dragon Blaster!"
BOOOM!!
The shoulder cannons fired releasing an extremely massive blast! Even as I tried my hardest to maintain my footing, I could not stop the impact from the recoil, and it sent my body backwards...! I used all my strength to stop myself from flying away!
The high output energy was fired into the midst of the Heroes Faction!
"Interesting, I will take this shot, legendary dragon!"
Heracles stepped up in front, was he trying to take my attack--
"Don't take it! Evade!"
Cao Cao yelled and used the base of his spear to hit Heracles away from the line of fire! Cao Cao and the other members then swiftly escaped my attack.
Without hitting anyone, the cannon blast continued flying onward far away behind them.
KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
A large explosion shook the entire space while the city in the background was engulfed by the gigantic aura!
...The energy continued to spread, surrounding the entire city with intense light!
As the bright light faded, nothing was left! The cannon blast eliminated the entire scenery, and even the game field was affected and the artificial dimension began to show signs of distortion!
"...Destroyed the whole city! Hey! If he keeps firing, this dimension won't last!"
Heracles finally understood the power of my cannons, and cried out in surprise.
"Distorting the simulated dimension, yet this place was constructed to be sturdy... What kind of firepower was that?"
Siegfried stopped smiling and narrowed his eyes.


So at low end its at least city buster (Kyoto size).

It's easy to say that the DC can be more than that since it also cause distortion in the dimension made by Dimension Lost. If we factor in the dimension boundary (if there's one since from what I recall it only replicated Kyoto), maybe the boundary limited the expansion of the gigantic aura so I can see why it can be Large city buster.

Archilla
2015-05-11, 01:17
"Disappear! Dragon Blaster!"
BOOOM!!
The shoulder cannons fired releasing an extremely massive blast! Even as I tried my hardest to maintain my footing, I could not stop the impact from the recoil, and it sent my body backwards...! I used all my strength to stop myself from flying away!
The high output energy was fired into the midst of the Heroes Faction!
"Interesting, I will take this shot, legendary dragon!"
Heracles stepped up in front, was he trying to take my attack--
"Don't take it! Evade!"
Cao Cao yelled and used the base of his spear to hit Heracles away from the line of fire! Cao Cao and the other members then swiftly escaped my attack.
Without hitting anyone, the cannon blast continued flying onward far away behind them.
KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
A large explosion shook the entire space while the city in the background was engulfed by the gigantic aura!
...The energy continued to spread, surrounding the entire city with intense light!
As the bright light faded, nothing was left! The cannon blast eliminated the entire scenery, and even the game field was affected and the artificial dimension began to show signs of distortion!
"...Destroyed the whole city! Hey! If he keeps firing, this dimension won't last!"
Heracles finally understood the power of my cannons, and cried out in surprise.
"Distorting the simulated dimension, yet this place was constructed to be sturdy... What kind of firepower was that?"
Siegfried stopped smiling and narrowed his eyes.


So at low end its at least city buster (Kyoto size).

It's easy to say that the DC can be more than that since it also cause distortion in the dimension made by Dimension Lost. If we factor in the dimension boundary (if there's one since from what I recall it only replicated Kyoto), maybe the boundary limited the expansion of the gigantic aura so I can see why it can be Large city buster.

Yep. That's the exact reason I added the +. It basically means it's even higher than the threshold, but not quite island level.

Parry999
2015-05-11, 01:25
Shouldn't dragon blaster be equal to Crimson blaster since queen gives the same magic bonus bishop does

Archilla
2015-05-11, 01:29
Shouldn't dragon blaster be equal to Crimson blaster since queen gives the same magic bonus bishop does

CCQ gives better management to power and makes Issei stronger overall. Best example is him going from Sairaorg easily crushing his armor/stopping his rook punches to Issei being able to hurt him.

Parry999
2015-05-11, 01:37
CCQ gives better management to power and makes Issei stronger overall. Best example is him going from Sairaorg easily crushing his armor/stopping his rook punches to Issei being able to hurt him. Kind of makes triana a pointless powerup then Since an incomplete CCQ is all over stronger then it.

Archilla
2015-05-11, 01:45
Kind of makes triana a pointless powerup then Since an incomplete CCQ is all over stronger then it.

It's been made clear he needs to master the aspects of Triana to master CCQ.

Parry999
2015-05-11, 01:47
It's been made clear he needs to master the aspects of Triana to master CCQ. Yeah but we never see kazuya aoi train in it his always using CCQ

Archilla
2015-05-11, 01:54
Yeah but we never see kazuya aoi train in it his always using CCQ

Kazuya Aoi is the MC of Freezing. Issei Hyoudou is the MC of DxD.

Parry999
2015-05-11, 01:55
Kazuya Aoi is the MC of Freezing. Issei Hyoudou is the MC of DxD. LOL You didn't see what i did there did you lol

Archilla
2015-05-11, 01:59
LOL You didn't see what i did there did you lol

You just making the Josh Grelle joke? I appreciate it, heh, but unless you're talking about the Dub that's hard to notice.

Parry999
2015-05-11, 02:22
Plus Sairaorg was in balance breaker in the CCQ fight he wasn't when he fight triana. Sairaorg Deserves his own true queen for all his hard work.

Hk1117
2015-05-11, 04:57
Plus Sairaorg was in balance breaker in the CCQ fight he wasn't when he fight triana. Sairaorg Deserves his own true queen for all his hard work.

Sairaorg base = Ise in Welsh Dragonic Rook
Sairaorg BB > Ise True Queen.

I don't see the point.

Tbolt
2015-05-11, 05:36
Sairaorg base = Ise in Welsh Dragonic Rook
Sairaorg BB > Ise True Queen.

I don't see the point.

Ise fought Sairaorg on an equal level when he just manifested CCQ (true queen), so that tell you how powerful CCQ is. And now he has mastered CCQ to an even greater level.

Hk1117
2015-05-11, 05:46
Ise fought Sairaorg on an equal level when he just manifested CCQ (true queen), so that tell you how powerful CCQ is. And now he has mastered CCQ to an even greater level.

He was barely holding up in the fight. What good is being host to a heavenly dragon when you have to pull out all available power just to barely fight a lion?

ImperialFlameGod8190
2015-05-11, 06:04
He was barely holding up in the fight. What good is being host to a heavenly dragon when you have to pull out all available power just to barely fight a lion?

You rather severely underestimate Sairoarg and severely overestimate Issei at the time. Sairoarg is powerful the fact he fought kiba xenovia and rossweise and barely got a scratch the fact they needed to make sure he used the phoenix tears is rather terrifying. Sairoarg is stronger then Rias and by a long-shot. He needed to use CCQ and he knows it. As did Sairoarg.

Tbolt
2015-05-11, 06:43
Well the fact of the matter is you are both wrong and you cannot admit it. Sairoarg used an independent Longinus and was beating Ise in his base BB then the CCQ manifested and as Ddraig said The defense of this armor still hasn’t been stabilized! It’s basically a crab that just shed its shell ~ The Queen form hasn’t fully synchronized with you! and Ise fought head to head and beat him. I don't know what you read but you need to reread it again.

Hk1117
2015-05-11, 06:57
Well the fact of the matter is you are both wrong and you cannot admit it. Sairoarg used an independent Longinus and was beating Ise in his base BB then the CCQ manifested and as Ddraig said and Ise fought head to head and beat him. I don't know what you read but you need to reread it again.

they were fighting with their dreams (and possibly even lives) on the line. Excuses like "oh this is new so it's weak" are reserved for those who want a means to escape from the fact that they failed, if they fail. It's a sign of weakness no matter where you apply it.

Sure, he beat him, but he himself was in no better a position after the fight. He just barely made it.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 07:10
they were fighting with their dreams (and possibly even lives) on the line. Excuses like "oh this is new so it's weak" are reserved for those who want a means to escape from the fact that they failed, if they fail. It's a sign of weakness no matter where you apply it.

Sure, he beat him, but he himself was in no better a position after the fight. He just barely made it.

Sairaorg trained his whole life and is considered the strongest Devil of his generation even without any Demonic Power. Ise managing to fight in even grounds with such a monster after 6 months of training, and beat him when he got hold of a Longinus as well is already an amazing feat in it's own.

Hk1117
2015-05-11, 07:19
Sairaorg trained his whole life and is considered the strongest Devil of his generation even without any Demonic Power. Ise managing to fight in even grounds with such a monster after 6 months of training, and beat him when he got hold of a Longinus as well is already an amazing feat in it's own.

I don't deny his victory, just the fact that he needed a crack in the wall made for him to be able to break it down. He's still too weak. Far too weak. y'all be giving him way too much cred.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 07:23
I don't deny his victory, just the fact that he needed a crack in the wall made for him to be able to break it down. He's still too weak. Far too weak. y'all be giving him way too much cred.

He went from a below average human to Ultimate-Class strength in 9 months. If that's not powering-up at neck-breaking speed I don't know what is.

Hk1117
2015-05-11, 07:26
He went from a below average human to Ultimate-Class strength in 9 months. If that's not powering-up at neck-breaking speed I don't know what is.

he's not growing strong at the speeds you're all giving him credit for. More than half the time, he's needed holes made by everyone else to beat the bad guy or win the fight. Leave him to his own devices against a strong opponent, and 8/10 times he'll fall.

B214
2015-05-11, 07:29
he's not growing strong at the speeds you're all giving him credit for. More than half the time, he's needed holes made by everyone else to beat the bad guy or win the fight. Leave him to his own devices against a strong opponent, and 8/10 times he'll fall.

Well DxD's fight are mostly team base than individual base. Plus having friends to alongside is much better than it being like Dragon Ball where Issei takes all the spotlight while the others must wait for him to rescue them.

Hk1117
2015-05-11, 07:31
Well DxD's fight are mostly team base than individual base. Plus having friends to alongside is much better than it being like Dragon Ball where Issei takes all the spotlight while the others must wait for him to rescue them.

that's cool and all, but it's starting to close in on Fairy Tail levels of nakama asspulls.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 07:35
that's cool and all, but it's starting to close in on Fairy Tail levels of nakama asspulls.
There's still a looooong way until it gets that bad.

If sometime in the future Ise beats a villain because he's Ise I'll flip some tables. lol

Hk1117
2015-05-11, 07:37
There's still a looooong way until it gets that bad.

If sometime in the future Ise beats a villain because he's Ise I'll flip some tables. lol

I have a few ready for the occasion. we'll flip 'em together lol.

B214
2015-05-11, 07:43
There's still a looooong way until it gets that bad.

If sometime in the future Ise beats a villain because he's Ise I'll flip some tables. lol

The only reason Ise can have to beat a villain is only one thing that is OPPAI! Don't get that wrong:frustrated:. :heh::heh:

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 07:50
The only reason Ise can have to beat a villain is only one thing that is OPPAI! Don't get that wrong:frustrated:. :heh::heh:

I know. I only used the 2nd worst moment in all of FT manga as a joke/comparison. Erza actually beats a villain because she's Erza. That's the explanation Hiro gave us. Worse than that only Natsu one-shotting Blue Note.

@EDIT: I just remembered, Ise already managed to beat a Maou-Class opponent with a (less effective) Boosted Gear. So that would mean that if we count skill as "strength" he actually could defeat someone like Serafall.

B214
2015-05-11, 08:17
For me, i'd say that is because of the surprise factor. Euclid was only prepared for the white Wyvern, therefore is caught offguard by the red Wyvern, plus the Longinus Smasher only hit Euclid because Rossweisse restrained Euclid.

ImperialFlameGod8190
2015-05-11, 08:38
I know. I only used the 2nd worst moment in all of FT manga as a joke/comparison. Erza actually beats a villain because she's Erza. That's the explanation Hiro gave us. Worse than that only Natsu one-shotting Blue Note.

@EDIT: I just remembered, Ise already managed to beat a Maou-Class opponent with a (less effective) Boosted Gear. So that would mean that if we count skill as "strength" he actually could defeat someone like Serafall.

FT just had a pretty retarded moment IMO in the last chapter. Issei pretty much already has beaten opponents because "he's Issei" He smacked the hell out of Kokabiel and Vali their first because of "only you" moments. I mean seriously he gets a SS level boost just because Rias says he gets boobage. He then beats vali to the point he was gonna use JD because he was gonna halve Rias's boobs. issei's victories early on bordered on idiocy. Admittedly he's gotten better at it after the fact.

Biohazardous
2015-05-11, 09:26
Sairaorg trained his whole life and is considered the strongest Devil of his generation even without any Demonic Power. Ise managing to fight in even grounds with such a monster after 6 months of training, and beat him when he got hold of a Longinus as well is already an amazing feat in it's own.

Sometimes people forget how long the opponents Ise faces have been around verses the short time he has been a devil. Even a loss to Sairaorg after that long would have been a feat. Sairaorg would still have just about the same level of respect.

I really want to see a fully mastered CCQ. The power will probably be awesome. Maybe Ddraig will make a comment on it for us. Ddraig is perfect to help us get perspective on things.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 09:58
FT just had a pretty retarded moment IMO in the last chapter. Issei pretty much already has beaten opponents because "he's Issei" He smacked the hell out of Kokabiel and Vali their first because of "only you" moments. I mean seriously he gets a SS level boost just because Rias says he gets boobage. He then beats vali to the point he was gonna use JD because he was gonna halve Rias's boobs. issei's victories early on bordered on idiocy. Admittedly he's gotten better at it after the fact.

Azazel said Ise wouldn't have beaten Kokabiel doesn't matter how many times he boosted. And if Vali hadn't run away, Ise would have lost completely, he didn't win, he just went up a notch for a certain amount of time for comical relief.

Archilla
2015-05-11, 10:02
Okay, so where do we feel comfortable putting Issei in terms of destructive capability with powerscaling? There's some decently divided opinions.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 10:10
Okay, so where do we feel comfortable putting Issei in terms of destructive capability with powerscaling? There's some decently divided opinions.

Regular Ise, without anyone threatening the his family, probably is Island+ Buster.

If someone threaten his family however... I don't know, he scared the shit out of me in V6. I would say he could even go to Continent Buster, but I'm not too sure about that.

Archilla
2015-05-11, 10:16
Regular Ise, without anyone threatening the his family, probably is Island+ Buster.

If someone threaten his family however... I don't know, he scared the shit out of me in V6. I would say he could even go to Continent Buster, but I'm not too sure about that.

I foresee a Beserk Button being hit in the future. Personally, I see Riz slapping Rias or something. Then we'll see some upward limits.

Biohazardous
2015-05-11, 10:24
Regular Ise, without anyone threatening the his family, probably is Island+ Buster.

If someone threaten his family however... I don't know, he scared the shit out of me in V6. I would say he could even go to Continent Buster, but I'm not too sure about that.

I could agree with base Ise levels. Full out rage Ise...Im talking the kind of rage that wants every ounce of power available within him would be scary. I'd fear him needing that kind of power I'd say it will very very easily take out a continent. Fully mastered and unlock no telling.

ImperialFlameGod8190
2015-05-11, 10:47
Azazel said Ise wouldn't have beaten Kokabiel doesn't matter how many times he boosted. And if Vali hadn't run away, Ise would have lost completely, he didn't win, he just went up a notch for a certain amount of time for comical relief.

Okay i'll give u that i thought i said something akin to that but hey whatever

Royalknightftw
2015-05-11, 13:27
Yeah but we never see kazuya aoi train in it his always using CCQ

Guess he trained it offscreen, besides CCQ is just an improvised version of Triaina
However, if i am not mistaken he sometimes changes his pieces while in CCQ which probably means that he still uses Triaina (indirectly?) in fight, though i am not really sure about that.

Krudelu
2015-05-11, 16:07
Okay, so where do we feel comfortable putting Issei in terms of destructive capability with powerscaling? There's some decently divided opinions.

About Crimson Blaster's Destructive capability:

From what I recall correctly, the first time Iseei used Dragon Blaster, he needed to boost (up to 30 times) in order to use Dragon Blaster.


Energy concentrated in the cannons--

"Disappear! Dragon Blaster!"
BOOOM!!
The shoulder cannons fired releasing an extremely massive blast! Even as I tried my hardest to maintain my footing, I could not stop the impact from the recoil, and it sent my body backwards...! I used all my strength to stop myself from flying away!


He also used the same city busting Dragon Blaster against base Sairaorg but only dealing little damage to base Sairaorg considering that Issei is already going all out in that fight. By the time he used unboosted Crimson Blaster in his CCQ (I don't recall him boosting while he's in his CCQ during that fight) , he's able to do significant damage to BB Sairaorg so it's easy to assume that Crimson Blaster (unboosted)>Dragon blaster

By Volume 11, during his fight against Shalba, he boosted before firing a a Crimson Blaster


“You are supposed to have received a curse! Why can you move!? Why aren’t you afraid!? Are you telling me you are not afraid of death!?”
Shut up!? Of course I am scared! But it seems like even scarier things will happen if I leave you alive! That’s why I will beat you up first!
[B][Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost!!]
HIT!HIT! HIT!
Combo of punches and kicks! Getting hit, Shalba falls onto the roof of the hotel!
“Absurd….! I am the real Maou!? I tried to accomplish my vengeance by seeking the help of Hades and humans and dealt with the shame and embarrassment…..! I even went through the experiments of the Hero Factions that made me puke….! But why are the Heavenly Dragons such as you and Vali getting in my way! A mere Dragon who doesn’t even have a huge dream or ideal! Why do you ignore someone like me who is seeking to go even higher!? I can’t understand! I really can’t understand!”
He goes to where the captured Ophis is and asks her.
“Ophis! Ophis! Give me that snake one more time! Then I shall attain the power that is beyond the previous Maou! I need that snake to beat this man!”
“Right now I am unstable. I can’t make the snake-type that increases strength.”
Shalba put on a face of despair after hearing Ophis. I landed in front of him. He looked up at me trembling. I then said it!
“You tried to take away the smiles of the children. That is enough of a reason for you to get beaten up! I! I am the children’s hero who plays the role of Oppai-Dragon! If you are trying to take their future away from them, then I will kill you here!”
I made cannons appear from my wings and started to get ready to fire a blast. A quiet impulse of aura. Enormous power is being charged in the cannon. Shalba released his wings and tried to run away….. I won’t let him get away! Hearing an idiotic ideal like yours, I’m not nice enough to let you get away!
“Blow away! Crimson Blasteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer!!”
[Fang Blast Booster!!!!]
ZUBAAAAAAAAAAAN!
Enormous amounts of crimson aura were released from the cannons!
“Fuhahahahahaha! Either way you will also die from Samael’s curse! Sekiryuutei!”
A red aura enveloped Shalba who was screaming……


Well it's arguable that he only did that boosts to increase his physical hitting power that time. We know that he boosted 14 times on this on so that a multiplier of 2^14 (x16,384). If we consider that the boost he did also carries over to his Crimson Blaster, we can get this kind of destructive capability.

Dragon Blaster's DC * 2^14
(This is just the low end)

But if we consider that Crimson Blaster's DC(unboosted) > Dragon Blaster, we get:
>Dragon Blaster's DC * 2^14

I know that I don't have an exact value of TnT for Dragon Blaster's DC but at least I can (probably) guess where "Island level" (probably larger than a city or region sze island) DC for Crimson Blaster is coming from since we can easily apply the multiplier to Dragon Blaster's DC to get his max DC for Crimson Blaster he did so far.

For those who are saying that Issei is capable of being a Continent level buster, I think I know where its coming from.


Yeah. I’ve decided.
“Don’t fuck with meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeee!!”
I’ll kill Vali—. I’ll absolutely kill Vali—!
“You bastard! Buchoooooou’s! So you intend to halve the size of my Buchou’s breeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeasts!!”
[Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost!!!!!!]
Voices from jewels on various places of my armour repeatedly resounded.
“I won’t forgive you! You’re the one person I absolutely won’t forgive! I’ll knock you down! I’ll destroy you! Valiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!”
[Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost!!!!!!!!!!]
My surroundings flew off! The ground I was standing on was also greatly gouged out and changed into a crater.
The windows of the old school building completely cracked, and the outer wall was collapsing.
My whole body was wrapped in the greatest mass of aura it had ever had.
“Ahahaha! What the heck is that!? Seriously! His dragon power sprang up because his master’s breasts might become smaller!”
Azazel guffawed and burst out laughing.
It isn’t a laughing matter! This really isn’t a laughing matter! For me, it’s more serious than heaven and earth being inverted! Yeah, scramble! This is the greatest possible crisis!
That’s why it’s unforgivable! Halve my Buchou’s breasts? That’s unforgivable! Those breasts are mine! As if I’d let them become small! I still haven’t rubbed them enough! I still haven’t sucked them yet! I still haven’t held them between my fingers yet! (!)
Don’t take away my dreams, you bastaaaaaaaard!
I realised it once again. He and I can never understand each other! I felt my dream to double Buchou’s breasts! Yet he said that this guy will halve Buchou’s breasts!
I thrusted my finger at Vali! The far-off trees in the background were blown away from the force of the aftershock of thrusting that finger.
“Just try to make a move on Rias Gremory! I’ll thoroughly destroy you to the point where you won’t be able to reincarnate agaaaaaaain! You halving maniaaaaaaaaaaaac!!”
The clouds in the night sky were broken apart from my exclamation. The full moon which had been hidden appeared.
“Today is full of surprises. Who would have thought that this much power would explode because of a woman’s breasts. But, it’s interesting!”
The Hakuryuukou flew out at me. —I didn’t feel slow.
Bah! I got away from that spot and kicked Vali in the side as he flew!
“Fast! Have you exceeded me in speed!?”
Like I know! Be surprised as you please! As if I’ll forgive! As if I’ll forgive this guy! If I leave him alone, not only Buchou, but also Akeno-san’s breasts will be halved!
Kuh! Just imagining it makes me shudder! It’s an unforgivable act even for God to halve those fantastic breasts! I caught up with Vali who was moving at the speed of light with no trouble.


The point of the entire context above is the amount of boosts he performed. Him being able to catch up to Vali in speed with those boosts is just a bonus. Anyway:

Look at how many times he boosted that time. This is so far his biggest amount of boost he ever done so far considering it's his longest consecutive boost. By counting how many times he boosted, we can approximately tell that the multiplier he gets is around 2^47. I'm not saying that he's continent buster at that time (volume 4) but if he does this multiplier with his crimson blaster, it can potentially be continent buster (at least medium continent size). Potentially greater.

Now, what does 47 consecutive boosts equates to?

*2^47 = approx. *140,737,488,400,000 = approx. *1.407375e14

So that's about 140 TRILLION MULTIPLIER! DAMN!:eyespin:
This multiplier might be also the reason why a lot of people can easily buy into that lightspeed or FTL(MFTL if greater) Vali nonsense. It's funny how it's meant to be a hyperbole but there's somewhat of an actual backup that can potentially prove that the hyperbole may not be just a hyperbole but for real :eyebrow:

Any thoughts on this?

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 19:01
Apparently Ddraig was World+ Buster when he was alive only regarding physical prowess. Crazy shit will happen if Ise and Vali have a final fight after mastering their SGs. And it proves Fenrir was a joke both in the LN and in the anime. HD level my ass.

Biohazardous
2015-05-11, 20:50
It is scary to imagine what Ddraig and Albion could do together in their prime.

Hk1117
2015-05-11, 20:52
It is scary to imagine what Ddraig and Albion could do together in their prime.

pfft. Imagine Ophis in it's prime, sitting quietly, peacefully sipping at Dimensional Gap tea when an idiot comes around blowing shit up. He breaks it's favorite tea set and Ophis rampages as a result.

Hell, imagine the current Ophis getting pissed off because (hypothetically) Ise got a few holes dug into himself... again

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-11, 22:16
Right now Ophis is 4x as strong as Ddraig in his prime. And she said she feels weak. Unless she's recovered some of her power, being the "Infinite" I think she just never stops generating power.

In her prime I think she was at least Solar System-Buster, maybe could be even Multi Galaxy-Buster.

Forget about her, think of the two monstrosities this arc revolves around:

Great Red and Trihexa are somewhat of Reality-Busters(Is this a thing? Still haven't memorised all the official tiers) since they fighting each other could end up destroying their entire dimension IIRC.

Archilla
2015-05-11, 22:32
Right now Ophis is 4x as strong as Ddraig in his prime. And she said she feels weak. Unless she's recovered some of her power, being the "Infinite" I think she just never stops generating power.

In her prime I think she was at least Solar System-Buster, maybe could be even Multi Galaxy-Buster.

Forget about her, think of the two monstrosities this arc revolves around:

Great Red and Trihexa are somewhat of Reality-Busters(Is this a thing? Still haven't memorised all the official tiers) since they fighting each other could end up destroying their entire dimension IIRC.

It's tough to say, but the fact that Ddraig is a World+ Buster really starts pushing up the levels of the Legendary Beings.

Hk1117
2015-05-11, 22:48
It's tough to say, but the fact that Ddraig is a World+ Buster really starts pushing up the levels of the Legendary Beings.

Well, they're still going by the christian logic of "god made the universe". That god feared Ophis. I doubt he'd fear someone who can only send a galaxy flying.

Krudelu
2015-05-11, 23:20
Now the question is what u mean by "world"? I know the word "world" is somewhat of a vague word since it can refer to a planet or the universe itself.

Hk1117
2015-05-11, 23:24
Now the question is what u mean by "world"? I know the word "world" is somewhat of a vague word since it can refer to a planet or the universe itself.

Well, the series seems to confine itself on Earth for the most part, soooo.....

Parry999
2015-05-12, 00:14
Well, they're still going by the christian logic of "god made the universe". That god feared Ophis. I doubt he'd fear someone who can only send a galaxy flying.

No there not If they where God would be omipotent. Omiscience and omnipresence and you know unkillable.

Hk1117
2015-05-12, 05:45
No there not If they where God would be omnipotent. Omniscient and omnipresent and you know unkillable.

Actually, no. As powerful gods are, even they can be killed with sufficient power. well, at least reduced to a mere shadow of what they were. Why do you think the god-killing spear exists?

Biohazardous
2015-05-12, 09:18
I loved Ddraig telling us about his world+ powers. The thing we have to figure out tho is what exactly would be brute force when it concerns him. He also said it would be destroyed several times over.

Gary29
2015-05-12, 09:21
Right now Ophis is 4x as strong as Ddraig in his prime. And she said she feels weak. Unless she's recovered some of her power, being the "Infinite" I think she just never stops generating power.

In her prime I think she was at least Solar System-Buster, maybe could be even Multi Galaxy-Buster.

Forget about her, think of the two monstrosities this arc revolves around:

Great Red and Trihexa are somewhat of Reality-Busters(Is this a thing? Still haven't memorised all the official tiers) since they fighting each other could end up destroying their entire dimension IIRC.

Ophis isn't literally infinite. She's just classified as such because her power level is so immense she seems to be infinite compared to everyone else.

Though since we're bringing up monstrosities this arc is centered around... thoughts on where Shiva would be ranked?


Well, they're still going by the christian logic of "god made the universe". That god feared Ophis. I doubt he'd fear someone who can only send a galaxy flying.

There's no info in the LN on who created the universe(s), unless you have a quote that says otherwise.

Also, if it's okay, I'd like to go back to a couple of earlier discussions for a moment:


Fenrir - "Heavenly Dragon" status is primarily used to refer to offense (durability being a close second). Fenrir's fangs have the capability to kill Gods, just like Ddraig and Albion in their prime do. That's why he's listed at the level that he is. Yeah, he didn't do anything major against the Gremory group and co., but every attack that he managed to get in nearly killed someone because of those fangs.

I don't see Fenrir's God-killing capabilities as a level of strength that he gained from hard work; I see it as a fixed level of power that he has innately. To show what I mean, think of it in Pokemon terms; the move Super Fang always chips off 50% of your current HP, regardless of type advantage or disadvantage (immunities not included). Fenrir's fangs do a fixed amount of damage to any being, Gremory-group level, Raynare-level, or God-class, that fixed amount being near-death for whatever opponent he's facing (75-80% of their HP every time, if you will). That's why all his attacks were fatal (without Asia's healing) in the LN. A second attack and that person would have died.

Azazel - He's like a mini Sun Wukong in a matchup against Ise. He has tricks up his sleeves to defeat you, but if you can surpass those tricks and manage to hit him he's done for. I think current Ise could defeat Azazel.

Biohazardous
2015-05-12, 09:25
I think Ise could defeat Azazel if he knew not defeating him would cause harm to the girls. He couldn't fight him serious enough without that. I see him just trying to defend and stay alive since Azazel is suppose to be a close friend at the least. Ise would be trying to get him to stop fighting and find out why he turned against them.

Gary29
2015-05-12, 09:31
I think Ise could defeat Azazel if he knew not defeating him would cause harm to the girls. He couldn't fight him serious enough without that. I see him just trying to defend and stay alive since Azazel is suppose to be a close friend at the least. Ise would be trying to get him to stop fighting and find out why he turned against them.

I don't mean like Azazel being a legit villain, I mean like a spar match. :heh:

Biohazardous
2015-05-12, 09:40
Spar humm that still can be a little rough. Maybe Asia needs to grow a little more. Ise is very strong in the right mood he could one shot Azazel especially if he wasn't expecting something that powerful. Imagine Rias whispering in his ear before the match beat him in less than x amount of time and the others will leave us alone for x amount of time to do what you want with me. He will walk up they say fight and BAM no more Azazel.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-12, 09:42
Ophis isn't literally infinite. She's just classified as such because her power level is so immense she seems to be infinite compared to everyone else.

Though since we're bringing up monstrosities this arc is centered around... thoughts on where Shiva would be ranked?




There's no info in the LN on who created the universe(s), unless you have a quote that says otherwise.

Also, if it's okay, I'd like to go back to a couple of earlier discussions for a moment:


Fenrir - "Heavenly Dragon" status is primarily used to refer to offense (durability being a close second). Fenrir's fangs have the capability to kill Gods, just like Ddraig and Albion in their prime do. That's why he's listed at the level that he is. Yeah, he didn't do anything major against the Gremory group and co., but every attack that he managed to get in nearly killed someone because of those fangs.

I don't see Fenrir's God-killing capabilities as a level of strength that he gained from hard work; I see it as a fixed level of power that he has innately. To show what I mean, think of it in Pokemon terms; the move Super Fang always chips off 50% of your current HP, regardless of type advantage or disadvantage (immunities not included). Fenrir's fangs do a fixed amount of damage to any being, Gremory-group level, Raynare-level, or God-class, that fixed amount being near-death for whatever opponent he's facing (75-80% of their HP every time, if you will). That's why all his attacks were fatal (without Asia's healing) in the LN. A second attack and that person would have died.

Azazel - He's like a mini Sun Wukong in a matchup against Ise. He has tricks up his sleeves to defeat you, but if you can surpass those tricks and manage to hit him he's done for. I think current Ise could defeat Azazel.

Did they ever say Ophis isn't literally infinite? If so, please tell me in which volume.

It was said in the LN that Fenrir's strength rivaled Ddraig and Albion in their prime. If being able to kill gods it's all you need to be in the top 10 Cao Cao should be there, since he has the spear that killed Jesus.

If Azazel could win against Cao Cao, he can win against Ise without breaking a sweat. He made a satellite with a Dragon Slayer cannon, a car with missiles and a bunch of other crazy shit for lulz.

Gary29
2015-05-12, 10:18
Did they ever say Ophis isn't literally infinite? If so, please tell me in which volume.

It was said in the LN that Fenrir's strength rivaled Ddraig and Albion in their prime. If being able to kill gods it's all you need to be in the top 10 Cao Cao should be there, since he has the spear that killed Jesus.

If Azazel could win against Cao Cao, he can win against Ise without breaking a sweat. He made a satellite with a Dragon Slayer cannon, a car with missiles and a bunch of other crazy shit for lulz.

As far as I can remember, it was never stated. Not being literally infinite is my inference. If she was literally infinite, it would have been stated by now that she could and has regenerated her lost power.

Your strength is directly proportional to what level of beings you can defeat, doesn't matter if it's a fixed power or your regular strength. Cao Cao hasn't reached a level capable of defeating the top-10 yet.

Think of it like what Cao Cao said about Vali in v12; that he'd lose purely because of his overwhelming power. That's what Ise is to Azazel.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-12, 10:25
As far as I can remember, it was never stated. Not being literally infinite is my inference. If she was literally infinite, it would have been stated by now that she could and has regenerated her lost power.

Your strength is directly proportional to what level of beings you can defeat, doesn't matter if it's a fixed power or your regular strength. Cao Cao hasn't reached a level capable of defeating the top-10 yet.

Think of it like what Cao Cao said about Vali in v12; that he'd lose purely because of his overwhelming power. That's what Ise is to Azazel.

Maybe she is still recovering it because it was taken by the Ultimate Dragon Slayer. It's just speculation until someone confirms it, so let's leave it at that.

Then why everyone of the higher ups were hiding during the Underworld crisis? Oh yeah, because of Cao Cao's spear.

How is Ise's power overwhelming to Azazel? The only times he curbstomped someone, it was just some nameless fodder. Azazel is at the same level as regular Sirzechs, which Ise is not.

Seafoam
2015-05-12, 10:36
Did they ever say Ophis isn't literally infinite? If so, please tell me in which volume.

Volume 11. Someone said nothing is infinite in the world, but Ophis is close.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-12, 10:37
Volume 11. Someone said nothing is infinite in the world, but Ophis is close.

Ah, OK. Didn't remember that.

G147
2015-05-12, 10:49
The closest one i got to the topic at hand is this.

“Well if the Grim Reapers are here, then they have predicted certain types of resistance from Ophis. Also the current Ophis isn’t infinite. She is finite. They must have a way to seal Ophis besides using Samael. It’s obvious for us to be still and careful.”

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-12, 10:55
The closest one i got to the topic at hand is this.

That was after she got her powers stolen right? Then unless she absorbs Lilith, she'll stay finite then. Got it.

Biohazardous
2015-05-12, 10:58
That's my take on it Chichi.

Archilla
2015-05-12, 11:03
Before we move on too far, we came to a general consensus that Issei is Island+ without too much powerscaling or boosting, correct? If so I'll update the first post.

G147
2015-05-12, 11:10
Before we move on too far, we came to a general consensus that Issei is Island+ without too much powerscaling or boosting, correct? If so I'll update the first post.

Without using boost i don't think we can say Ise is capable of destroying an island though.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-12, 11:10
Before we move on too far, we came to a general consensus that Issei is Island+ without too much powerscaling or boosting, correct? If so I'll update the first post.

Yes, without too much boosting and just using CCQ.

G147, the keywords are too much.

Parry999
2015-05-12, 15:30
Actually, no. As powerful gods are, even they can be killed with sufficient power. well, at least reduced to a mere shadow of what they were. Why do you think the god-killing spear exists? God capital generally refers to the christian god like it does in this series to. And by christian logic he is all the things I mentioned plus jesus came back from the dead after allowing himself to be killed.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-12, 15:56
God capital generally refers to the christian god like it does in this series to. And by christian logic he is all the things I mentioned plus jesus came back from the dead after allowing himself to be killed.

In DxD they're killable. But that doesn't mean God couldn't have created the universe. The main problem with multiple pantheons existing in the same universe is that inconsistencies are prone to come up regarding stuff like that. So it could've been God from the Bible, it could've been the guy from the Hindu faction, Chaos from the Greek, and a bajillion others, he could even use the "Gods are born from humanity's faith" origin. If Ishibumi wants so he could say it was Mil-tan or Chichigami-sama.

Krudelu
2015-05-12, 16:11
Before we move on too far, we came to a general consensus that Issei is Island+ without too much powerscaling or boosting, correct? If so I'll update the first post.

Regarding the Island level, the problem is that "Island level" is kinda vague since islands vary in size as well. Some can be smaller than a city and some can be region size. I guess it'll be better if we can at least relate it's size with something...

Regarding CCQ, sure his CCQ is able to do significant damage to BB Sairaorg with Crimson Blaster(unboosted since he didn't boosted during the fight with his CCQ on) so we can tell that his damage output is significantly greater than Dragon Blaster but it's really hard to tell if it can really reach island level (Japan region size). So it's safe to assume that its a little greater than Dragon Blaster or at least equivalent to it as the very low end of it. I can see him being "island level" if we take the 2^14 boost he did in Shalba fight into consideration and use it as a multiplier for its very low end DC.

Any thoughts on this?

Archilla
2015-05-12, 20:39
Regarding the Island level, the problem is that "Island level" is kinda vague since islands vary in size as well. Some can be smaller than a city and some can be region size. I guess it'll be better if we can at least relate it's size with something...

Regarding CCQ, sure his CCQ is able to do significant damage to BB Sairaorg with Crimson Blaster(unboosted since he didn't boosted during the fight with his CCQ on) so we can tell that his damage output is significantly greater than Dragon Blaster but it's really hard to tell if it can really reach island level (Japan region size). So it's safe to assume that its a little greater than Dragon Blaster or at least equivalent to it as the very low end of it. I can see him being "island level" if we take the 2^14 boost he did in Shalba fight into consideration and use it as a multiplier for its very low end DC.

Any thoughts on this?

The above linked Destructive Capabilty Guide will give you more info on what being "Island Level" is.

Also, while I'm a little confused as to what you're saying, I think you're forgetting the massive jump in power from Crimson Blaster to Longinus Smasher.

G147
2015-05-13, 05:38
I believe the attack output for Ise is dependent on the number of [Boost] he uses or should i say he can control the desire output he wants.

Hk1117
2015-05-13, 05:41
I believe the attack output for Ise is dependent on the number of [Boost] he uses or should i say he can control the desire output he wants.

He's not there yet. He isn't yet capable of controlling his output levels. It'll be a while.

Though, I'd like to see him get stronger so his reliance on Ddraig and his allies is reduced.

Krudelu
2015-05-13, 05:48
I believe the attack output for Ise is dependent on the number of [Boost] he uses or should i say he can control the desire output he wants.

Sure he can do as much boosts as he wants but the problem is that can his stamina take the amount of boosts he can do? The power can put so much strain to him if he use it too much than what his stamina can do just like what happened to him during the rating game against Riser. That's why Issei has been training so he can also raise his stamina to be able to make use more of Ddraig's powers.

Royalknightftw
2015-05-13, 07:44
Did they ever say Ophis isn't literally infinite? If so, please tell me in which volume.

It was said in the LN that Fenrir's strength rivaled Ddraig and Albion in their prime. If being able to kill gods it's all you need to be in the top 10 Cao Cao should be there, since he has the spear that killed Jesus.

If Azazel could win against Cao Cao, he can win against Ise without breaking a sweat. He made a satellite with a Dragon Slayer cannon, a car with missiles and a bunch of other crazy shit for lulz.

There is a theory made by kikix and it's quite reasonable: "Assuming that her "infinity" would just be lack of tiring out (she could use her power infinitely), but with a definite cap, and a seal would prevent that "power regeneration" of her, Samael could rob her of finite amount of power lowering her "cap""

The problem is Fenrir's spec is a LOT higher than Cao-Cao, could Cao-Cao land a hit on Vali in vol 12 without using Samael ?? probably no, while Fenrir is able to Blietzkrieg both Vali and Tannin.

Biohazardous
2015-05-13, 07:58
He's not there yet. He isn't yet capable of controlling his output levels. It'll be a while.

Though, I'd like to see him get stronger so his reliance on Ddraig and his allies is reduced.

I think the reliance on Ddraig will go away when he unlocks GR/Ophis or just a little before. I want to know how things are going to change once those powers are unlocked. .

Hk1117
2015-05-13, 08:03
I think the reliance on Ddraig will go away when he unlocks GR/Ophis or just a little before. I want to know how things are going to change once those powers are unlocked. .

It won't be as exaggerated as some people are expecting. the guy got maybe 1-2% of each of their abilities.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-13, 08:08
There is a theory made by kikix and it's quite reasonable: "Assuming that her "infinity" would just be lack of tiring out (she could use her power infinitely), but with a definite cap, and a seal would prevent that "power regeneration" of her, Samael could rob her of finite amount of power lowering her "cap""

The problem is Fenrir's spec is a LOT higher than Cao-Cao, could Cao-Cao land a hit on Vali in vol 12 without using Samael ?? probably no, while Fenrir is able to Blietzkrieg both Vali and Tannin.
That's a really good theory.

He owned everyone in the ORC club when they were far stronger than in V7, Azazel who's as strong as regular Sirzechs and therefore Tannin, Kuroka, Le Fay (IIRC, could be wrong about her) and non-EJOD Vali while he had to protect George. And he still had 3 or 4 BB abilities up his sleeve. He showed as much fighting prowess, if not more than Fenrir ever did.

About Ise's new body's power, I agree with Hk, I think it won't be much about getting super strong, and more a really nerfed version of their abilities.

Biohazardous
2015-05-13, 08:21
The question is how nerfed. Of course you can't expect him to get a full 100% or even close to their original power. How much of their power will he get and will it also affect Ddraig. I personally think it can/will affect them both.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-13, 08:31
The question is how nerfed. Of course you can't expect him to get a full 100% or even close to their original power. How much of their power will he get and will it also affect Ddraig. I personally think it can/will affect them both.
About 0.00000009%, which would place him at Maou-Class instantly. jk

Considering Great Red didn't even acknowledge Tannin's attacking him at full-force, I think it could be like this, but I doubt it.

Unless you can tell me an actual argument as to why it'd affect Ddraig, I can't think so.

Biohazardous
2015-05-13, 08:41
All of this is speculation until it is said. Even assuming percents. Hell us saying he can do anything in regards to being made from them is speculation. It's almost guaranteed do to it being Ise but still an assumption. I think it would affect Ddraig just for the fact he is in Ise's body also. I can't give much else for argument since we don't even know it's fully possibly though it's likely. Maybe a future volume will have someone comment on it all like Ddraig himself, Ophis, or maybe even Ajuka.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-13, 08:47
All of this is speculation until it is said. Even assuming percents. Hell us saying he can do anything in regards to being made from them is speculation. It's almost guaranteed do to it being Ise but still an assumption. I think it would affect Ddraig just for the fact he is in Ise's body also. I can't give much else for argument since we don't even know it's fully possibly though it's likely. Maybe a future volume will have someone comment on it all like Ddraig himself, Ophis, or maybe even Ajuka.
I don't agree with it, but like you said, until it's said in the LN, almost everything is up for speculation.

Tbolt
2015-05-13, 09:12
Ise will be able to form into a full dragon, and be able to use all of Ddraigs powers.

Biohazardous
2015-05-13, 09:14
Ise will be able to form into a full dragon, and be able to use all of Ddraigs powers.

Oh no doubt about that. Ddraig will cry again this time from happiness. :p

Archilla
2015-05-16, 13:48
Will be putting out the Durability discussion prompt soon, just need to get my stuff around.

Krudelu
2015-05-17, 01:18
Just a revised reply of the reply I deleted awhile ago

The above linked Destructive Capabilty Guide will give you more info on what being "Island Level" is.

Also, while I'm a little confused as to what you're saying, I think you're forgetting the massive jump in power from Crimson Blaster to Longinus Smasher.


If you're referring to the vs wiki, DC tiers are based on generated TnT. Some may not make sense if we take the tier names' meaning literally like "city level" and "mountain level" since they vary in size (sometimes they are bigger over than other in size). If we're mentioning "island level" as tier from vs wiki then okay I get it


Sorry if I made it confusing regarding Crimson Blaster but here's what I was trying to say.

I think CCQ can hit "Island+" when considering certain factors:

-If were using the very low end then we can consider that at least Crimson Blaster(unboosted) = Dragon Blaster. From here, it can potentially hit Island+ if we consider the 2^14 multiplier from the Shalba fight.

-If were considering Crimson blaster(unboosted) is significantly greater than Dragon blaster considering the significant damage he did to BB Sairaorg, then it can potentially be close to "island level" since it could be beyond "city level" (Kyoto size). If 2^14 multiplier applied, it can potentially go beyond "island+"

Either way it can hit "Island+"

Regarding Crimson Blaster and Longinus Smasher, I already took their difference in DC into account. Everyone knows that LS>>>>>>>>CB. What I'm trying to say earlier is that Crimson Blaster alone can potentially be capable of "island+". I didn't included Longinus Smasher that time since it didn't show enough feats other than destroying the shrine (vol 6), the Jabberwocky (vol 12), and turning the sky red (vol 17). So I can't tell exactly it's potential DC.
Anyway, either one, if we're considering low end CB, then probably we can say that LS is "island+." Probably significantly greater


Also, I think we should mention his other mode's DC so we can tell the different feats with different modes. Just an example (something like this):
Base: wall
BB(regular: mountain (small mountain)
CCQ: island+
Feel free to include it on your first post if you must


Any thoughts on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will be putting out the Durability discussion prompt soon, just need to get my stuff around.

This may be hard to tell since the last time I can recall show his durability feat was against Grendel(vol 14). I'll try to reread the fights again to figure out his other durability feats that I may missed

Archilla
2015-05-18, 23:30
Umm... Oppai! I have returned riding Grea... Well, actually via my iPad.

It's time to tackle a tough beast in DxD. No, it's not speed. That... Fustercluck can be saved for another day. We're talking Durability, baby!

It's time for Issei's Durability Discussion! Iku ze!

We begin, as always, with the Highest Quantifiable Feat!

This is a slippery one, as this can be taken two ways. The easy go to is being able to tank lots of punches from BB Sairaorg, a fistfight in which the punches resulted in the breaking down of the dimensional space. The more recent option is Issei's fight against Grendel. This nasty Evil Dragon had physical strength that could only be brought down via a combination of manly souls (GL reference, check). The issue here is, while Issei did take hard hits, he got hurt pretty bad when he did. Whereas vs. Sairaorg, he was able to keep swinging away while being pounded on. Either way, I think these feats put him at Large City/Small Mountain Level durability. But, I do have something interesting to add to the discussion...

Knock knock. Who's there? Powerscaling, bitches!

So here's what I'm going to humbly present for y'all; Euclid only being knocked out after eating a Longinus Smasher. Why is this a feat for Issei? I propose that because Euclid was wearing his copy Scale Mail, he had obtained a durability similar to Issei. While the obvious point is that Euclid has much higher base stats than Issei, the counterpoint is that Issei's Sacred Gear is the real deal, and actually has a World+ Busting being chilling in his arm. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Euclid survived that attack solely because of being in that armor. So if we accept all this, Issei's durability has to be roughly equal to his Longinus Smasher. As this happens to be his most powerful attack, and as we happen to already have his destructive capability roughly determined, we'd get his durability to be Island+.

So... Let's have at it!

ImperialFlameGod8190
2015-05-18, 23:41
Umm... Oppai! I have returned riding Grea... Well, actually via my iPad.

It's time to tackle a tough beast in DxD. No, it's not speed. That... Fustercluck can be saved for another day. We're talking Durability, baby!

It's time for Issei's Durability Discussion! Iku ze!

We begin, as always, with the Highest Quantifiable Feat!

This is a slippery one, as this can be taken two ways. The easy go to is being able to tank lots of punches from BB Sairaorg, a fistfight in which the punches resulted in the breaking down of the dimensional space. The more recent option is Issei's fight against Grendel. This nasty Evil Dragon had physical strength that could only be brought down via a combination of manly souls (GL reference, check). The issue here is, while Issei did take hard hits, he got hurt pretty bad when he did. Whereas vs. Sairaorg, he was able to keep swinging away while being pounded on. Either way, I think these feats put him at Large City/Small Mountain Level durability. But, I do have something interesting to add to the discussion...

Knock knock. Who's there? Powerscaling, bitches!

So here's what I'm going to humbly present for y'all; Euclid only being knocked out after eating a Longinus Smasher. Why is this a feat for Issei? I propose that because Euclid was wearing his copy Scale Mail, he had obtained a durability similar to Issei. While the obvious point is that Euclid has much higher base stats than Issei, the counterpoint is that Issei's Sacred Gear is the real deal, and actually has a World+ Busting being chilling in his arm. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Euclid survived that attack solely because of being in that armor. So if we accept all this, Issei's durability has to be roughly equal to his Longinus Smasher. As this happens to be his most powerful attack, and as we happen to already have his destructive capability roughly determined, we'd get his durability to be Island+.

So... Let's have at it!

Since i revel in being that guy im afraid i have to do it but Issei happens to rather beautifully have the "power of the MC disease"
As far as battles are concerned. He nerfs enough attacks to allow him to stay in a fight until a solution appears to him. Thats the issue that i've had with issei as well as many MC's. he'll endure whatever he needs to endure until he can win. Thats why powerscaling is such a dangerous and foolish thing

Archilla
2015-05-18, 23:47
Since i revel in being that guy im afraid i have to do it but Issei happens to rather beautifully have the "power of the MC disease"
As far as battles are concerned. He nerfs enough attacks to allow him to stay in a fight until a solution appears to him. Thats the issue that i've had with issei as well as many MC's. he'll endure whatever he needs to endure until he can win. Thats why powerscaling is such a dangerous and foolish thing

Of course. We have to balance PIS with what we're given. While we also need to understand that the MC never really gets put down, I think my powerscaling argument has nothing to do with classic shonen "keep getting back up" stuff, and is solely based on his opponent possessing a copy of his armor.

Royalknightftw
2015-05-18, 23:49
@GDK 1

In vol 14, Iirc draig just returned from his "comatose state" so it might have affected CCQ in considerable ways (being weaker than usual) , that's why i believe Issei's durability while in CCQ is able to withstand almost any kind of physical attacks (island level perhaps)

Biohazardous
2015-05-19, 09:08
@GDK 1

In vol 14, Iirc draig just returned from his "comatose state" so it might have affected CCQ in considerable ways (being weaker than usual) , that's why i believe Issei's durability while in CCQ is able to withstand almost any kind of physical attacks (island level perhaps)

Hopefully volume 20 will let us see what CCQ can do. Ddraig has had time to fully recuperate and he got to practice and train with it.

Archilla
2015-05-19, 12:44
Hopefully volume 20 will let us see what CCQ can do. Ddraig has had time to fully recuperate and he got to practice and train with it.

My birthday is right about the time I imagine the whole volume will be translated, and all I want for it is a good speed feat and an explicit example of how much damage LS can do.

I'm preparing for the day Issei gets put up against a popular Shonen character in a VS forum, like Luffy. :D

Biohazardous
2015-05-19, 12:51
Id imagine it is capable of great destruction. One day we see someone/something get wrecked by it.

Archilla
2015-05-19, 21:11
Thoughts on the Euclid argument, anyone? It's a little out of the box, but I think there's some evidence there.

Parry999
2015-05-19, 23:23
Didn't Euclids ultimate class devil demonic power boost the Stats of his incomplete boosted gear replica? If so you probably can't scale the two.

Archilla
2015-05-19, 23:35
Didn't Euclids ultimate class devil demonic power boost the Stats of his incomplete boosted gear replica? If so you probably can't scale the two.

I addressed that. My argument is, while yes his base stats were higher via immense power, Issei has the advantage of his SG being the real deal and actually containing Ddraig, who if you remember was recently confirmed as powerful as freaking hell. A point during their fight was Euclid attempting to get Ddraig to come over to his SG because it wasn't complete without him.

While Euclid >>> Issei, Real Boosted Gear w/Ddraig >>>>>>>> Fake BG.

Krudelu
2015-05-20, 05:12
Regarding using Euclid for powerscaling of Issei's durability, I dont think its viable atm. They may have the "same equipment" even though one is real while the other one is fake but they have different parameters.

kusabireika
2015-05-20, 06:13
quick question ._. uhm what should I add in hs dxd power tread ^^?
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk308/0kusabireika0/Kanade%20Emoticon/Kanade006_zps56d322e6.jpg

Biohazardous
2015-05-20, 08:25
GDK don't forget if the parameters are close enough Ise could still lose if Euclid can use the tools of the gear better than Ise can.

Archilla
2015-05-20, 11:14
If people don't think it's viable then we won't consider it. That's the point of these discussions, and I'm glad people are being open about it.

But let me ask this question then. Does this mean you all think Euclid is significantly more durable than Issei with his armor? Or even in base?

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-20, 11:24
If people don't think it's viable then we won't consider it. That's the point of these discussions, and I'm glad people are being open about it.

But let me ask this question then. Does this mean you all think Euclid is significantly more durable than Issei with his armor? Or even in base?

Not really, I mean, having strong demonic power doesn't mean you're a tanker. Loki was a God and his hands were slightly burned by a Dragon Shot IIRC.

Archilla
2015-05-20, 11:27
Not really, I mean, having strong demonic power doesn't mean you're a tanker. Loki was a God and his hands were slightly burned by a Dragon Shot IIRC.

I agree. I think there's a very obvious reason Euclid needed the armor, and thus I think it gives legitimacy to an argument that the armor gave him what he needed to survive an attack that has annihilated everything we've seen it hit.

But, like I said, this is a democracy. Well, maybe managed democracy, if anyone gets the reference :D.

Biohazardous
2015-05-20, 12:08
I agree. I think there's a very obvious reason Euclid needed the armor, and thus I think it gives legitimacy to an argument that the armor gave him what he needed to survive an attack that has annihilated everything we've seen it hit.

But, like I said, this is a democracy. Well, maybe managed democracy, if anyone gets the reference :D.

The armor probably helped make up with his demonic powers couldn't alone. Since he is powerful his demonic aura probably made the armor stronger than say if Ise was wearing that set. Euclid having full mastery of the armor would give Ise a run for the money if he also doesn't have mastery or close to it. I'd like to think after all this time he has a good handle on things maybe short of LS. Not sure what he needs to master on LS though aside from being able to insure it's use doesn't take to much out of him.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-20, 12:21
The armor probably helped make up with his demonic powers couldn't alone. Since he is powerful his demonic aura probably made the armor stronger than say if Ise was wearing that set. Euclid having full mastery of the armor would give Ise a run for the money if he also doesn't have mastery or close to it. I'd like to think after all this time he has a good handle on things maybe short of LS. Not sure what he needs to master on LS though aside from being able to insure it's use doesn't take to much out of him.

LS isn't supposed to be mastered in the first place. It's the forbidden attack of a forbidden mode that unleashes the full power of a World-Buster Dragon. The fact he will be weaker for a whole month is a fair price if you ask me.

Biohazardous
2015-05-20, 12:27
Yes its a fair price doesn't mean he can't try to cut down the time though. :) More people might earn the reward of needing a LS to da face. Can't let them down with it being on a cooldown. :D

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-20, 12:48
Yes its a fair price doesn't mean he can't try to cut down the time though. :) More people might earn the reward of needing a LS to da face. Can't let them down with it being on a cooldown. :D

I meant in his current state. When he gets stronger, the "cool down" will naturally decrease, just like how the countdown and the amount of time he could maintain his armor decreased/increased with training.

Biohazardous
2015-05-20, 12:50
And that is when the epicness begins :D

Archilla
2015-05-20, 16:53
Not to derail any durability discussions, I'd just like to toss something out since I've seen some people abusing/not understanding "light speed" today on whowouldwin and I've got to mention it here.

Vali. Is. NOT. As. Fast. As. Light.

I know Ishibumi uses "lightspeed" in reference to Vali, but holy crap light is so goddamn fast. He's simply not.


Ugh. The speed discussion is gonna be a nightmare.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-20, 17:15
Not to derail any durability discussions, I'd just like to toss something out since I've seen some people abusing/not understanding "light speed" today on whowouldwin and I've got to mention it here.

Vali. Is. NOT. As. Fast. As. Light.

I know Ishibumi uses "lightspeed" in reference to Vali, but holy crap light is so goddamn fast. He's simply not.


Ugh. The speed discussion is gonna be a nightmare.
If Vali was as fast as light in volume 4, Ise was Quicksilver (X-Men latest movie, not Age of Ultron) at the start of the series.

I still wonder what "Godspeed" means. I mean, it's something if you're comparing to a god like Hermes, who had freaking flying boots and was the mailman of the Gods, which pretty much implies he was (or at least should be) fast as hell, but what about Aphrodite? I bet 10 internet points she wasn't fast at all.

Archilla
2015-05-20, 17:19
If Vali was as fast as light in volume 4, Ise is like Quicksilver (X-men, not Age of Ultron) at the start of the series.

I still wonder what "Godspeed" means. I mean, it's something if you're comparing to a god like Hermes, who had freaking flying boots and was the mailman of the Gods, which pretty much implies he was (or at least should be) fast as hell, but what about Aphrodite? I bet 10 internet points she wasn't fast at all.

This is exactly why the speed discussion will suck.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-20, 17:23
This is exactly why the speed discussion will suck.

The tone in which I read your comment makes me think I'm going to need some popcorn. :D:D

Parry999
2015-05-20, 17:25
Still Slower then flash like 99% of fiction

Archilla
2015-05-20, 17:27
Still Slower then flash like 99% of fiction

Flash breaks the laws of physics. Like, all of them.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-20, 17:32
Flash breaks the laws of physics. Like, all of them.
The Gurren Laggan way or the Fairy Tail way? I know it's not the One Piece way since he's not that goofy.

Archilla
2015-05-20, 17:42
The Gurren Laggan way or the Fairy Tail way? I know it's not the One Piece way since he's not that goofy.

The TTGL way. Going FTL is one, impossible, and two, implies all sorts relativistic physics and time dilation and such. Plus the whole speed force crap that totally tosses out Newton's Third Law.

Parry999
2015-05-20, 17:46
They think in less then an attosecond. The stuff wally and barry do is crazy.

Archilla
2015-05-20, 17:56
They think in less then an attosecond. The stuff wally and barry do is crazy.

Comic writers have a bad history of putting words before "second" they don't understand the ramifications of. A famous example is the scene where Flash carries all the Koreans away from that explosion one at a time. With the time frame provided, someone used simple math to show he'd be moving at some crap like 13 trillion times FTL.

Basically, The Flash irritates me.

Edit: FOUND ITTTTTT (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/110794/2632114-theflashisthefastestmanalive.png)

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-20, 18:07
Comic writers have a bad history of putting words before "second" they don't understand the ramifications of. A famous example is the scene where Flash carries all the Koreans away from that explosion one at a time. With the time frame provided, someone used simple math to show he'd be moving at some crap like 13 trillion times FTL.

Basically, The Flash irritates me.

Edit: FOUND ITTTTTT (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/110794/2632114-theflashisthefastestmanalive.png)
Damn.

I know squat about physics, but if you are going to use numbers, make sure they are right FFS.

At least Ishibumi's description of speed is really vague (except for V4, which is probably just overexageration from a teenager in high school) and he doesn't try to sound very logical about it.

Parry999
2015-05-20, 18:12
Comic writers have a bad history of putting words before "second" they don't understand the ramifications of. A famous example is the scene where Flash carries all the Koreans away from that explosion one at a time. With the time frame provided, someone used simple math to show he'd be moving at some crap like 13 trillion times FTL.

Basically, The Flash irritates me.

Edit: FOUND ITTTTTT (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/110794/2632114-theflashisthefastestmanalive.png)
I seen that one have you seen this one http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=15242 Four quintillion, four hundred eighteen quadrillion, one hundred forty trillion, nine hundred thirty billion, one million, six hundred forty-eight thousand times the speed of light saint seiya characters man. So how fast is akeno lightning that people deflect.

Archilla
2015-05-20, 18:20
I seen that one have you seen this one http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=15242

Yeah, haha. Seiya is broken as well.

My irritation came from the old "Luffy dodging light speed lasers" BS.

Like, do people get how fast that is? Light moves at about 300 Million meters per second. That's circumnavigating the globe 7.5 times every second.

Parry999
2015-05-20, 18:29
Yeah, haha. Seiya is broken as well.

My irritation came from the old "Luffy dodging light speed lasers" BS.

Like, do people get how fast that is? Light moves at about 300 Million meters per second. That's circumnavigating the globe 7.5 times every second.
Nope people don't just ask lucas arts. Luffys not Ftl I wonder if Kizaru is really even light speed or just made of light.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-20, 18:32
Yeah, haha. Seiya is broken as well.

My irritation came from the old "Luffy dodging light speed lasers" BS.

Like, do people get how fast that is? Light moves at about 300 Million meters per second. That's circumnavigating the globe 7.5 times every second.
Lasers in OP that don't come from Kizaru aren't as fast as light. No idea why, but they aren't.

@Parry: He's made of light, and can move at light speed, but he can only do so with the help of mirrors because it can only move in a linear pattern(?). At least my physics teacher in High School said it can only move that way.

Royalknightftw
2015-05-20, 18:34
Hmmmm, i guess most comic writers use "light speed" term as a way to describe how fast it is and then they put"God-speed" term to say it's faster than the "light speed" ones, not implying it has to be exact speed how physic sees "light speed" term. Well the problem is Flash is a Sci-fi comic, while dxd, fairy tail, and saint saiya are just pure fantasy.

Archilla
2015-05-20, 18:36
Nope people don't just ask lucas arts. Luffys not Ftl I wonder if Kizaru is really even light speed or just made of light.

Personally, I 100% don't believe he is. If he could move that fast, Pirates wouldn't exist. No one would ever be able to beat him, ever. It breaks wayyyyy too many concepts to have him be made of light.

Ugh.

Edit: Royal, Flash is 100% fantasy at that point. Attempting to give it legitimacy doesn't change the fact that it's just making stuff up.

Krudelu
2015-05-20, 19:21
Not to derail any durability discussions, I'd just like to toss something out since I've seen some people abusing/not understanding "light speed" today on whowouldwin and I've got to mention it here.

Vali. Is. NOT. As. Fast. As. Light.

I know Ishibumi uses "lightspeed" in reference to Vali, but holy crap light is so goddamn fast. He's simply not.


Ugh. The speed discussion is gonna be a nightmare.

Regarding this I think I can guess why people buy into the FTL Vali nonsense easily because of the 47 boost (2^47 or 140 trillion multiplier) Issei did back then at vol 4 to catch up to him so something that is meant to be hyperbole might not be hyperbole thanks to a certain factor :/

Archilla
2015-05-20, 19:25
Regarding this I think I can guess why people buy into the FTL Vali nonsense easily because of the 47 boost (2^47 or 140 trillion multiplier) Issei did back then at vol 4 to catch up to him so something that is meant to be hyperbole might not be hyperbole thanks to a certain factor :/

I take the lightspeed comment as just an inexperienced Issei's comments. Again, if Vali was lightspeed, no one could touch him. Unless we're arguing the heavy hitters can go FTL, which again, breaks Physics.

But true, that multiplier is nuts.

Krudelu
2015-05-20, 19:32
I take the lightspeed comment as just an inexperienced Issei's comments. Again, if Vali was lightspeed, no one could touch him. Unless we're arguing the heavy hitters can go FTL, which again, breaks Physics.

But true, that multiplier is nuts.

True that no one may be able to touch them if he's FTL but some people will argue that his opponents might have at least relativistic-FTL reactions. its possible to touch someone FTL if that person is capable of the same speed.

I still think that Vali is not FTL. It's just that multiplier can make a hyperbole not hyperbole.

Regarding FTL fights I wont be surprised if it happens one day in DxD...

So how fast is akeno lightning that people deflect.

If were assuming that Akeno's lightning is really lightning, then lightning travels at 224,000 mph

B214
2015-05-20, 19:34
Ise probably viewed it that way due to Vali's SG.

Royalknightftw
2015-05-26, 11:52
Hmmm, should we talk about others feats, say Saji in his Vritra Promotion form ?? Well, he is not as destructive as Issei but surely we can talk about Saji's feats.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-26, 12:06
Hmmm, should we talk about others feats, say Saji in his Vritra Promotion form ?? Well, he is not as destructive as Issei but surely we can talk about Saji's feats.

Hmm... He was able to bind Loki and the Kyuubi down. But that's it I guess.

Biohazardous
2015-05-26, 12:12
He helped insure the school wasn't fully destroyed. Got his BB from it.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-26, 12:28
He helped insure the school wasn't fully destroyed. Got his BB from it.

Oh, it's about all of Saji's feats. Thought it was only the Vritra Promotion's.

Parry999
2015-05-26, 14:29
This dude was fighting ultimate class dudes before he even had a scale mail and people in this forum treat him like joke. He survived hits from Grendel without armor this guys durability might be better then ises.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-26, 15:48
This dude was fighting ultimate class dudes before he even had a scale mail and people in this forum treat him like joke. He survived hits from Grendel without armor this guys durability might be better then ises.

When did he fight Ultimate-Class beings?

Parry999
2015-05-26, 15:53
When did he fight Ultimate-Class beings? The kyuubi is one, loki is, Grendel was one Unless being called a dragon king class dragon only makes you high class dragon.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-26, 16:04
The kyuubi is one, loki is, Grendel was one Unless being called a dragon king class dragon only makes you high class dragon.
I don't recall he ever fighting Grendel.

Regarding Loki and Kyuubi:

A) It wasn't him, it was Vritra Promotion. If that counts, Ise is a Heavenly Dragon-Class because of JD.

And assuming that counts as him,

B) He didn't fight them, only binded them down, and wouldn't have been able to actually beat them.

Parry999
2015-05-26, 16:19
I don't recall he ever fighting Grendel.

Regarding Loki and Kyuubi:

A) It wasn't him, it was Vritra Promotion. If that counts, Ise is a Heavenly Dragon-Class because of JD.

And assuming that counts as him,

B) He didn't fight them, only binded them down, and wouldn't have been able to actually beat them. Volume 17 He takes several blows from Grendel a guy stronger then volume 10 Sairaorg when vritra was inside Divine dividing. He also doesn't loose control of vritra promotional instantly and JD not the same at all. Theirs not a balance breaker form of JD.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-26, 16:25
Volume 17 He takes several blows from Grendel a guy stronger then volume 10 Sairaorg when vritra was inside Divine dividing. He also doesn't loose control of vritra promotional instantly and JD not the same at all. Theirs not a balance breaker form of JD.
Yes, he loses control completely, the only one that can put him in check is Ise.

CCQ is pretty much an enhanced form of JD.

Parry999
2015-05-26, 16:54
Yes, he loses control completely, the only one that can put him in check is Ise.

CCQ is pretty much an enhanced form of JD. Its called Cardinal Crimson Full Drive not JD Ise calls it an alternative. But this has nothing to do with Saji durability compared to Ises without armor.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-26, 17:15
Its called Cardinal Crimson Full Drive not JD Ise calls it an alternative. But this has nothing to do with Saji durability compared to Ises without armor. It was Sairaorg who named it. And since names mean completely nothing in this regard, I don't see your point.

At the end of the day, it's an enhanced version of a Berserker state. Same as Saji's BB.

He didn't just tank those hits like nothing. It was like Ise in V2 and Saji himself in V5. He pushed his body beyond it's limits by risking his life. It's not about durability, it's about spirit. And we all know Ise is a pro when it come to spirit.

Archilla
2015-05-30, 15:34
Mmmkay, so I'm going to assume the verdict on my Euclid theory is not agreed upon. So that would leave Issei's durability at around mountain level. Are we okay with that?

Chichiryuushintei
2015-05-30, 15:41
Mmmkay, so I'm going to assume the verdict on my Euclid theory is not agreed upon. So that would leave Issei's durability at around mountain level. Are we okay with that?

If someone threw a mountain at him in CCQ Rook mode, he might be able to take it. Depends on who's throwing it.

Archilla
2015-05-30, 15:54
If someone threw a mountain at him in CCQ Rook mode, he might be able to take it. Depends on who's throwing it.

I'm comfortable saying that Grendel was at least small mountain level, as per the jumping-off post.

Krudelu
2015-05-30, 23:41
After all the rereads that I've done I can't seem to gauge Ise's durability very well atm. So I guess we can stick with "Large City/Small Mountain" durability level atm. Even if Grendel's punches are worth at least "Large City," since the best the punches did was to hurt him but it didn't even at least incapacitate him, then that mean that Ise's peak durability should be greater than just "small mountain" level. Since that is also hard to determine, I would just stick with "Large City/small mountain" level as the low end atm until there are more calculable feats in the future (or better yet improved feats).

Archilla
2015-05-30, 23:52
After all the rereads that I've done I can't seem to gauge Ise's durability very well atm. So I guess we can stick with "Large City/Small Mountain" durability level atm. Even if Grendel's punches are worth at least "Large City," since the best the punches did was to hurt him but it didn't even at least incapacitate him, then that mean that Ise's peak durability should be greater than just "small mountain" level. Since that is also hard to determine, I would just stick with "Large City/small mountain" level as the low end atm until there are more calculable feats in the future (or better yet improved feats).

I agree. I'll write something up and update the Issei post.

Biohazardous
2015-05-31, 08:13
I continue to hope volume 20 gives us plenty of insight into Use and the girls. We may get fortunate and be able to read it will shortly after release.

Tbolt
2015-05-31, 12:21
I continue to hope volume 20 gives us plenty of insight into Use and the girls. We may get fortunate and be able to read it will shortly after release.

Totally agree, it is about time to start seeing more advancement in all the relationships. If we don't it will just be rehashing the previous events over and over again, which starts getting boring and starts losing fans.

Biohazardous
2015-05-31, 20:52
Yea it would get boring. I can't see him making a Ise volume and not giving advancement or at least concrete statuses on the relationships. It also could be why it was changed from a Vali volume. He didn't want things to keep going without any kind of advancement or knowledge of whats going on in the relationships or Ise.

azeem40
2015-06-06, 20:34
How far would Ise go if he fought villains or heroes in DB or DBZ? I'd say he's below Master Roshi.

Parry999
2015-06-06, 20:55
How far would Ise go if he fought villains or heroes in DB or DBZ? I'd say he's below Master Roshi. Roshi shouldn't have even lost to king piccolo apparently his strong enough to fight freeza soldiers who should all be as strong as raditz or above.:confused:

azeem40
2015-06-06, 21:18
Roshi shouldn't have even lost to king piccolo apparently his strong enough to fight freeza soldiers who should all be as strong as raditz or above.:confused:

Most of Frieza's soldiers are crappy anyway, so that's why he beat them. Besides, Roshi died due to the evil containment wave, not from King Piccolo. I still think Ise maxes at Roshi, if not below him. Roshi can blow up moons.

Krudelu
2015-06-06, 21:54
How far would Ise go if he fought villains or heroes in DB or DBZ? I'd say he's below Master Roshi.

some characters in DB probably. DBZ? the way Ise is right now I dont think he can beat most of them especially the villains since most DBZ villains (especially the main ones) are at least planet level (can be greater).

Roshi can only blow up moons with Kamehameha.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-06-06, 21:58
some characters in DB probably. DBZ? the way Ise is right now I dont think he can beat most of them especially the villains since most DBZ villains (especially the main ones) are at least planet level (can be greater).

Roshi can only blow up moons with Kamehameha.

Not easily, he was pretty exhausted afterwards IIRC. But, yeah, Ise needs to get a lot stronger to get to DBZ level.

azeem40
2015-06-06, 22:12
Not easily, he was pretty exhausted afterwards IIRC. But, yeah, Ise needs to get a lot stronger to get to DBZ level.

Yeah, big time. I shouldn't have even included DBZ lol. He can't beat Raditz, the weakest Saiyan. XD
I'd say he'd probably beat Kid Goku post-Roshi training, but anyone beyond that he stands no chance. MAYBE Cymbal, but idk about that, though.

Krudelu
2015-06-06, 22:17
Not easily, he was pretty exhausted afterwards IIRC. But, yeah, Ise needs to get a lot stronger to get to DBZ level.

oops my bad. It should be "moon" rather than "moons." Just noticed it when u quoted it XD. But at least he's still able to do it even if its one.

Well Ise has a very long way to go to reach DBZ level. He might as well take more intense training than what's he been doing recently.

azeem40
2015-06-06, 22:20
I don't expect him to reach DBZ level. That's just absurd for him IMO.

Krudelu
2015-06-06, 22:25
I don't expect him to reach DBZ level. That's just absurd for him IMO.

Well its possible if he can perform a lot of consecutive boosts since his multiplier goes like this:

2^x

x= amount of boost

So basically he can get huge multipliers. He can potentially reach DBZ feats if he can perform a lot of boosts consecutively.

Ise has also been training so he can raise his stamina. The more stamina he has the more he can make use of Ddraig's power

Chichiryuushintei
2015-06-06, 22:29
I don't expect him to reach DBZ level. That's just absurd for him IMO.

Ddraig was World+ Buster level, so it's not impossible if he masters Ddraig's and his new body's powers. I doubt it'll happen without some kind of time skip, but still, it's possible.

azeem40
2015-06-06, 23:11
Ddraig was World+ Buster level, so it's not impossible if he masters Ddraig's and his new body's powers. I doubt it'll happen without some kind of time skip, but still, it's possible.

I didn't say it was impossible. It'll just be very difficult.

Archilla
2015-07-11, 00:41
Pulling the necro on this thread. I'll be updating the main post for Issei soon and starting a new discussion.

I won't let us die!

Hk1117
2015-07-11, 02:43
Pulling the necro on this thread. I'll be updating the main post for Issei soon and starting a new discussion.

I won't let us die!

let us die. raising the dead is unnatural and acts counter to the Facts of the Universe.

Which is really a messed up thing to do. the dead should stay dead.

Krudelu
2015-07-11, 04:19
Pulling the necro on this thread. I'll be updating the main post for Issei soon and starting a new discussion.

I won't let us die!

If you want you can start trying to quantify Issei's speed. Trust me it wont be a nightmare to talk about it as long as we provide proof (quotes from the LN will be nice) to prove his speed.

Also, we can try quantifying different things as well (like Issei's punching power, Kiba's durability post vol 10, etc.)

Also, I think you should mention the potency of Issei's attacks and other factors (like potency, dura, etc. for different triana forms)separately. Also lets try figuring out or quantifying what's quantifyable atm.:eyespin:

Archilla
2015-07-12, 00:49
Okay, to recap where we were for durability, we said that Issei was roughly Mountain level. This was due to taking punches from BB Sairaorg and Grendel.

Sairaorg will be fun to cover one day. His durability is on point. Dude ate a concentrated, much stronger version of an attack that vaporized a massive city and got back up.

Krudelu
2015-07-12, 02:17
Okay, to recap where we were for durability, we said that Issei was roughly Mountain level. This was due to taking punches from BB Sairaorg and Grendel.

Sairaorg will be fun to cover one day. His durability is on point. Dude ate a concentrated, much stronger version of an attack that vaporized a massive city and got back up.

In CCQ he is so we can say thats his current peak at least in low end but might as well figure out his earlier forms

G147
2015-07-12, 04:10
Sometimes i wonder why people keep on emphasizing on stuff like mountain level, city level when Sun Wukong already proved that technique > power. Ise despite having more raw power can't even land a hit on him, so raw strength means nothing in a real fight.

Hk1117
2015-07-12, 10:16
Sometimes i wonder why people keep on emphasizing on stuff like mountain level, city level when Sun Wukong already proved that technique > power. Ise despite having more raw power can't even land a hit on him, so raw strength means nothing in a real fight.

Finally, someone who understands english.

Direwolf18
2015-07-12, 10:24
Sometimes i wonder why people keep on emphasizing on stuff like mountain level, city level when Sun Wukong already proved that technique > power. Ise despite having more raw power can't even land a hit on him, so raw strength means nothing in a real fight.

::claps::

Thank you sir.

Archilla
2015-07-12, 12:24
Sometimes i wonder why people keep on emphasizing on stuff like mountain level, city level when Sun Wukong already proved that technique > power. Ise despite having more raw power can't even land a hit on him, so raw strength means nothing in a real fight.

Well that was a durability point I was mentioning, so it doesn't really have much influence on technique.

Also, power is important because it provides context. Sun Wukong has an absurd amount of experience. As Issei learns more technique, he can apply it to his large power base.

Power is good, technique might be better, but the best have both.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-07-12, 13:02
Sometimes i wonder why people keep on emphasizing on stuff like mountain level, city level when Sun Wukong already proved that technique > power. Ise despite having more raw power can't even land a hit on him, so raw strength means nothing in a real fight.

If it was that simple then Saji can easily beat Ise since he's a Technique-Type while Ise is a Power-Type.

It all depends on the person's experiece, Sun Wukong has been a Fighting Buddha for centuries (or millenia, not sure) so of course he can kick Ise's ass, he's been fighting for only 9 months. :rolleyes:

At least in the DxD-verse, it has been shown that technique can overcome raw power, but raw power can also overcome techniques. Hence how Kiba is more or less equal to Ise in terms of overall strenght. Both are equal even with completely different fighting styles. Experience is the deciding factor.

LowCholesterol
2015-07-12, 17:52
If it was that simple then Saji can easily beat Ise since he's a Technique-Type while Ise is a Power-Type.

It all depends on the person's experiece, Sun Wukong has been a Fighting Buddha for centuries (or millenia, not sure) so of course he can kick Ise's ass, he's been fighting for only 9 months. :rolleyes:

At least in the DxD-verse, it has been shown that technique can overcome raw power, but raw power can also overcome techniques. Hence how Kiba is more or less equal to Ise in terms of overall strenght. Both are equal even with completely different fighting styles. Experience is the deciding factor.

not really. Saji could defeat Ise if he training with Sairaorg method(hardcore training). but i'm sure this could happen in future. remember, he also defeat Ise with BB on volume 5 while he only have his own body and absorbtion line.

and about raw power surpasses technique. can you mention in which volume that happened? i forget about it.

Archilla
2015-07-12, 18:10
not really. Saji could defeat Ise if he training with Sairaorg method(hardcore training). but i'm sure this could happen in future. remember, he also defeat Ise with BB on volume 5 while he only have his own body and absorbtion line.

and about raw power surpasses technique. can you mention in which volume that happened? i forget about it.

Saji is simply not going to be passing Issei in this story. And C'mon he didby beat Issei he just stalled so he'd get removed from the game. Plus, Iseei managed to give them game-winning info before he left anyway.

LowCholesterol
2015-07-12, 18:16
defeat is defeat.
Ise defeat him and he also defeat Ise

on that fight Ise was possibly defeated by Saji even before retired because of blood loss if. Saji magic blast hit him (the one before Ise wear his armour)

Chichiryuushintei
2015-07-12, 18:19
not really. Saji could defeat Ise if he training with Sairaorg method(hardcore training). but i'm sure this could happen in future. remember, he also defeat Ise with BB on volume 5 while he only have his own body and absorbtion line.

and about raw power surpasses technique. can you mention in which volume that happened? i forget about it.
Ise is training all the time too, so unless you mean if Ise just stopped training for a few months to let Saji catch up to him, no, he wouldn't be able to beat Ise.

Ise couldn't give his all in that fight because of the special restrictions the higher-ups put on the Gremory Team. He could have just ended the game from the beginning with his Dragon Shot that can blast a mountain without even having to do much except from shooting at the enemy's base general direction.

Rias's team VS Sona's team. The only Technique-Type in Rias's side is Kiba, all the others are Power-Types. See who won even under rigged and completely unfair restrictions.

Archilla
2015-07-12, 18:41
defeat is defeat.
Ise defeat him and he also defeat Ise

on that fight Ise was possibly defeated by Saji even before retired because of blood loss if. Saji magic blast hit him (the one before Ise wear his armour)

Not sure what you mean by the second part. I love Saji and he deserved his new powerup, but nothing is changing the fact that Issei would demolish him at the moment.

Issei could solo the Sitri group in a game. Add Koneko and it's a lock 10/10.

LowCholesterol
2015-07-12, 20:18
Not sure what you mean by the second part. I love Saji and he deserved his new powerup, but nothing is changing the fact that Issei would demolish him at the moment.

Issei could solo the Sitri group in a game. Add Koneko and it's a lock 10/10.

ah, that part. i mean Ise will retire earlier if he take Saji magic blast(the attack which is absorbing Saji life force and then divided by DD gaunlet before it hit Ise)

yes if it's current him, but he will be trapped many time since sitri team now possess many artificial sg user, a new knight&rook.

but if he was with Koneko he will safe from trap since she could detect the enemy movement

Archilla
2015-07-12, 20:42
ah, that part. i mean Ise will retire earlier if he take Saji magic blast(the attack which is absorbing Saji life force and then divided by DD gaunlet before it hit Ise)

yes if it's current him, but he will be trapped many time since sitri team now possess many artificial sg user, a new knight&rook.

but if he was with Koneko he will safe from trap since she could detect the enemy movement

Are you saying that Saji's flame blast (which has no feats and is obviously weaker than Issei's projection abilities) could take out Issei? His durability is far superior and he's massively faster.

Issei wouldn't even need to factor in any of Sona's peerage. His damage output is so high he could just completely annihilate the area and all of them at once.

I mentioned Koneko because she would instantly know the location of Sona. Then Issei would either A) destroy that entire area instantly with a casual Dragon Blaster or B) zip over with Sonic Knight faster than any of them could react and punch Sona so hard she'd probably die.

sky black swordman
2015-07-12, 21:00
Ise is training all the time too, so unless you mean if Ise just stopped training for a few months to let Saji catch up to him, no, he wouldn't be able to beat Ise.

Ise couldn't give his all in that fight because of the special restrictions the higher-ups put on the Gremory Team. He could have just ended the game from the beginning with his Dragon Shot that can blast a mountain without even having to do much except from shooting at the enemy's base general direction.

Rias's team VS Sona's team. The only Technique-Type in Rias's side is Kiba, all the others are Power-Types. See who won even under rigged and completely unfair restrictions.Personally, I think Ise could have defeated Saji much earlier even with the restrictions placed on the Gremory team. In my opinion, Ise wasn't putting enough power behind his punches when he fought Saji. I feel that Ise held back a great deal of his power because he didn't want to seriously hurt Saji.

Archilla
2015-07-12, 21:29
Personally, I think Ise could have defeated Saji much earlier even with the restrictions placed on the Gremory team. In my opinion, Ise wasn't putting enough power behind his punches when he fought Saji. I feel that Ise held back a great deal of his power because he didn't want to seriously hurt Saji.

Definately. He had an explicit mountain vaporizing feat. He could have killed him.

G147
2015-07-12, 21:48
Personally, I think Ise could have defeated Saji much earlier even with the restrictions placed on the Gremory team. In my opinion, Ise wasn't putting enough power behind his punches when he fought Saji. I feel that Ise held back a great deal of his power because he didn't want to seriously hurt Saji.

Actually it's the opposite, Saji gave Ise the treatment Ise gave Riser in V2, to keep standing up even after being pound over and over. Hell Ise was even pressured by that perseverance. It's like what Tannin taught Ise,

[Kid. Listen carefully. The most fearful attack is a “heavy blow”.]

[A heavy blow?]

[Yeah, the Rating Games that you’ll be fighting in from now on will have various people fighting with various feelings. For the sake of one’s desire, for the sake of a hobby, for the sake of one’s family, for the sake of a woman, for the sake of wealth, and for the sake of a dream. Various thoughts and feelings mix together. Among these, there are even people who have invested their lives into the games. Among the participants in this hellish iron pot, there is an attack that must be feared the most. That is the “heavy blow”.]

[Is that a special final move? Or a Sacred Gear? A magic technique?]

[—No. Kid, grasp your fist. What is being grasped inside your hand there?]

[……I don’t know.]

[It is “filled” with something. A dream, or a soul. One’s life is “put into” that fist. This is, above all, dangerous. If one has time to prepare other attacks, this blow can be dealt with to a certain extent one way or another. But, just that is not enough. The “heavy blow” reaches to the core of the body. This is effective. It is frighteningly effective. Even in the Underworld with its magic and science, the damage of that blow can’t be expressed clearly. But, the ones who had been hit with this blow understand. Yeah, this is bad, they think. An opponent that can release this blow is an unmistakably, genuine strong enemy. You must never go easy against them. If an opponent can release that blow even if he is of a lower level than you, that is a different story. If you receive that blow, the battle situation will change completely. It pierces you. No matter what defence you use against it, it will reach the core of your body.]

Archilla
2015-07-12, 21:54
I get what you're saying, but his point is that Issei could have straight up murdered him if he wanted to.

Plus, the heavy blow got tossed into the pit of no return like Reverse or Oppai Beam.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-07-12, 22:05
Actually it's the opposite, Saji gave Ise the treatment Ise gave Riser in V2, to keep standing up even after being pound over and over. Hell Ise was even pressured by that perseverance. It's like what Tannin taught Ise,

Yeah, but Ise has that same perseverance, so even if he acknowledges it, doesn't mean Saji would have defeated him.

Archilla
2015-07-13, 09:10
As to the earlier discussion about why we use feats/tiers/busting levels at all, I'm happy to explain if people still really think that everything is irrelevant besides technique.

Hk1117
2015-07-13, 09:23
As to the earlier discussion about why we use feats/tiers/busting levels at all, I'm happy to explain if people still really think that everything is irrelevant besides technique.

all that planet level or galaxy level power will be the same as horseshit when someone who knows the guy's weaknesses inevitably comes along.

Funny enough, it happens to Ise all the bloody time.

Archilla
2015-07-13, 10:15
all that planet level or galaxy level power will be the same as horseshit when someone who knows the guy's weaknesses inevitably comes along.

Funny enough, it happens to Ise all the bloody time.

First off, that's not even technique. Saying someone won't be as effective when someone is aware of your weakness is a pretty obvious fact. That's like saying "Yeah, Superman won't be SHIT when someone shows up with Kryptonite." That's just someone knowing ahead of time how to beat someone.

Second of all, technique is a factor like anything else, but you're being ludicrous if you think it's the end all be all. We use feats/busting/tiers etc. like every single respectable VS forum on the Internet because it's the best way to build a complete profile of a character. If technique was as godly as you suggest, a character like Batman would go around stomping herald-tier characters. But he doesn't. Destructive capability is just as important as say, speed. Sometimes a character is outclassed.

Thirdly, am I missing something you are with "happens all the bloody time?"

Current Issei's (going from CCQ onwards) major fights have gone Overwhelming Power User > Technique User (even though his technique is BS) > Overwhelming Power Dragon > Overwhelming Demomic Power User > Overwhelming Demonic Power User with absurd hax.

Again, am I missing something?

Gary29
2015-07-13, 10:53
I get what you're saying, but his point is that Issei could have straight up murdered him if he wanted to.

Plus, the heavy blow got tossed into the pit of no return like Reverse or Oppai Beam.

I wouldn't say that. Whenever Sairaorg fights, that same idea returns. It's just that Issei doesn't utilize it (which is a bit of a shame considering he fights to protect everyone).

Archilla
2015-07-13, 10:56
I wouldn't say that. Whenever Sairaorg fights, that same idea returns. It's just that Issei doesn't utilize it (which is a bit of a shame considering he fights to protect everyone).

I feel like it was just kinda morphed into classic "never give up" shonen punches and get back up moments.

I just mean that it had a specific name and was never heard of again.

Archilla
2015-07-16, 11:45
Quick question for y'all:

Last night on whowouldwin someone asked me to do a Bloodmatch of Issei vs. Luffy. All that means is it's a typed-up story of a fight instead of just why someone wins.

People seemed to like it and it's decently long. Any interest in me posting it here?

Chichiryuushintei
2015-07-16, 12:15
Quick question for y'all:

Last night on whowouldwin someone asked me to do a Bloodmatch of Issei vs. Luffy. All that means is it's a typed-up story of a fight instead of just why someone wins.

People seemed to like it and it's decently long. Any interest in me posting it here?

Sure, that seems like an interesting match.

Archilla
2015-07-16, 12:33
Here it is! Hope any interested enjoy.



Issei Hyoudou and Rias Gremory stared blankly at the peaceful island that they had appeared on. They looked around to see nothing more than a quiet flat area with a few mountains in the distance, seated picturesquely on the water.

“Wow!” Iseei exclaimed as he admired the view. “I’m sorry I messed up the magic transport circle, but what a sight!”

Looking at the sky, Issei stumbled back and tripped into something behind him, falling over. Turning around, Issei saw that he had knocked over a large leg of meat that had been roasting over a small fire. Staring at the meat with a defeated yet angry look was a young man in a straw hat.

“M-m-m-m-m-my lunch…” Monkey D. Luffy exclaimed, stomach grumbling.

“Ah! I’m sorry! Let me cook it for you!” said an embarrassed Issei, as he picked up the meat from the dirt.

Having gained more control over his Dragonification recently, Issei took a deep breath and belched fire over the large leg of meat. With an akward smile, he handed the now charred meat back to the man. However, the man was no longer looking at the food. Instead Luffy was staring at Issei, eyes sharp with rage.

“You ate the Mera-Mera fruit?” He ask, his voice trembling as he saw his brothers’ legacy tarnished by this sheepish teenager.

“Huh?” Issei replied, confused. “The fire was just one of my abilities, It’s kind of a long story…”

“I DON’T CARE!” Screamed Luffy, smashing the ground to pieces in front of Issei with a single swing. “For my brother… for what he meant to me… I will defeat you here and now!”

Issei realized that for whatever reason, this man was serious. He had crushed the ground in front of them to pieces, and his fiery determination reminded him of when he was staring down Sairaorg Bael. This was not an opponent to take lightly.
“Boosted Gear… Balance Breaker!” cried out the voice from Issei’s arm as he was covered in red aura. As it faded, Luffy was looking at a hulking figure covered in red, dragon-themed armor.

“We don’t have to do this” said Issei as his armor was donned.
“Yes… WE DO!” yelled Luffy as he speed towards his opponent.


In an instant, Luffy was in front of Issei his rubber arm behind him, suddenly launching forward at an incredible velocity. Issei used Triana promotion to shift his arms to a thicker armor, and caught the punch, even as it sent him skidding backwards. This man was strong. He needed to open up the battlefield. Spreading his wings, Issei took to the sky, gathering a large amount of aura in his hand and preparing a Dragon Shot at the man below him.

“You can fly… but you’re still too slow… Gear Second!” exclaimed Luffy as steam started to lift off of his body.

Next thing Issei knew, Luffy was behind him. Before he could even react, he felt a fist in his back.

“Gomu-Gomu no Bazooka!” yelled Luffy as he smashed his opponent into the ground, leaving a crater upon impact.

“Issei!” cried out Rias, who was stunned by the man’s show of strength.

Lying on the ground, Issei felt the pain of the blow he had just received. Standing up, he reformed his damaged armor. Understanding that this man was too fast for him normally, he summoned his strengths and again changed pieces.

“Sonic Knight!” echoed out of Issei’s arm as his armor fell away to reveal a lighter form.

Leaping forward, he appeared in front of Luffy, changing his armor to that of the Rook once again to hit with maximum impact. Luffy held his hand forward as the massive fist smashed into it, overflowing with aura. Luffy skidded backwards amidst dust, but as it settled he remained unscathed. Issei saw that his hand was covered in black, and it seemed to boost his durability.

“I’m through here.” Luffy said, biting his thumb. “Gear Third!”

At the last second, Issei dodge the massive fist that had sped past him, crushing the background behind him. He turned, knowing who was in that direction. To his dismay, Rias was knocked unconscious by the resulting impact.

“Rias!” Issei screamed, rushing over to her desperately.

He held her in his arms, frantically checking for signs of life. She was breathing, but out cold, with a sliver of blood running down her forehead.

“I… I didn’t want to fight you before… but now you hurt Rias…”

Issei turned towards Luffy as his aura expanded and he began to chant:

“I, who is about to awaken, am the Sekiryuutei who has discarded the principle of domination.”

“I shall walk the road of righteousness by having the infinite dream and hope!”

“I shall become the King of Crimson Dragon.”

“And I promise you all! I will show you the future that shines in True-Crimson light!”

Red aura overflowed on the small island, as Issei’s armor gained a darker hue and emerged to it’s most powerful form: Cardinal Crimson Queen.

“It doesn’t matter what you look like!” Luffy yelled.

But before he knew what was happening, Issei had appeared in front of him. Luffy’s Haki provided him the foresight, however, to catch Issei’s incoming punch in time, as he coated his hands in Haki. However, a different sound rang out of Issei’s arm this time.

“PENETRATE!” echoed throughout the field, and Luffy felt the full weight of Issei’s punch, as if his Haki wasn’t even there.

Luffy flew back, crashing into the ground. Getting back up, he took a deep breath and prepared himself to take the fight to the next level.

“I’m going to beat you here and now!” Luffy exclaimed. “Gear Fourth!”

Issei looked on as the man’s form changed. He became rounder and more muscular, as he covered himself in the black armor that had stopped his Rook punch earlier. Answering in kind, Issei prepared to make use of his most powerful abilities.

“Fairy Wyverns!” said Issei as small Dragon statues colored both red and white flew out of the jewels on his armor.

Across the field from Issei, Luffy pulled his fist back into his arm and prepared a mighty blow.

“Gomu Gomu no… Kong Gun!” Luffy screamed as his Haki infused fist flew forward with enough speed and power to bring Warlords of the Sea to their knees.

However, as his punch flew, the small white dragon statues grazed his arm, and sounds rang out:

“DIVIDE! DIVIDE! DIVIDE! DIVIDE!”

With every word, Luffy could feel the force of his punch dwindling, along with his own stamina and strength. By the time it reached Issei, all occurring at an unfathomable speed, the punch was weak enough for the man in armor to catch it with his hands.

“My turn.” Issei said as he send the red statues forwards. “Dragon Shot!”

“BOOST! REFLECT! BOOST! REFLECT! BOOST! REFLECT!”

These were the only words Luffy could hear as the blasts of demonic energy hit the statues, growing stronger as they passed through the red ones, and bouncing off the white ones, hitting Luffy all over, each with the power to turn a mountain to ash. As the dust cleared, Luffy was bleeding and breathing heavily. He needed to finish this before the time limit on Gear Fourth expired. He kicked into the sky and prepared his ultimate attack, ready to bring it down upon the man in armor.

“Gomu Gomu no…”

As Issei heard these words, he changed all his dragon statues to red, and brought them close to his body.

“BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST! BOOST!”

The aura overflowed into Issei as the plating on his chest slid apart to reveal a charging cannon.

“KONG GUN!” cried Luffy, sending his ultimate attack down upon Issei.”

“LONGINUS SMASHER!” screamed Issei, as the aura built up in his cannon shot forward into the sky.

In an instant, the black fist and the red aura met in the sky, but the aura could not be overcome. There was a great flash, and Luffy was overcome by the tremendous energy.

Issei depowered his armor, gasping for breath, knowing that if his enemy had survived that, he was finished. However, when he looked up his opponent has been vaporized by the power of his final attack, with only the telltale crimson aura stained sky remaining from Longinus Smasher’s aura letting anyone know that the Straw Hat Pirate had ever been there.

amtro
2015-07-16, 12:41
Beams shoot right through Luffy, so unless you're a fanboy this match will be in Issei's favor.

Chichiryuushintei
2015-07-16, 13:02
Beams shoot right through Luffy, so unless you're a fanboy this match will be in Issei's favor.

I never thought Ise's beams had piercing power. Always thought they just blew up upon contact. But yeah, Ise wins hands down.

Sooo, not sure if off-topic, but who you guys think would win, Ise using CCQ or The Hulk?

Biohazardous
2015-07-16, 13:06
Ise more than likely would need access to LS.