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Gary29
2016-02-17, 20:04
This is a thread to discuss High School DxD Light Novel Volume 21.

Please stay on-topic and discuss what happens in this volume.
No shipping talk
No pointless chatter
No posting raws or novel illustrations
No posting translations of the novels themselves
No asking about when translations will be done
No posts only to update people about translation status (or to just say that something's "out")
No posts only to thank translators (please us PM or VM instead)


If you want to discuss a related topic, please feel free to request another thread be created about that topic.

――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――

Volume 21 ―― Lucifer of the Optional Attendance

――March 19, 2016

Looks like everyone is coming to fight. Sirzechs, Crom Cruach, even Kunou and Yasaka (also First Sun Goku and Yu-Long). Also we're getting a Balance Breaker party, featuring Canis Lykaon, Zenith Tempest, Absolute Demise (Lavinia!!), Regulus Nemea, Sephiroth Graal, Forbidden Invade Balor the Beast, True Longinus, Divine Dividing and Boosted Gear.

We are ―― me and Issei, together forever.

So, Issei.

Do not cry――.

―Infinite Dragon Ophis

I won't be back for several hours, sorry. Just saw on the wikia that the quotes were up and wanted to provide some info quickly.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-17, 20:16
... Dang, only a handful of quotes this time?

Although I am curious about what Sephirot Graal's BB is.

Gary29
2016-02-17, 20:22
... Dang, only a handful of quotes this time?

Although I am curious about what Sephirot Graal's BB is.

No, there's a lot more. I just don't have time to translate it tonight so I picked out the most interesting info really quickly. Hope for B214 or someone else to post more details later. Or I'll get to it in the morning.

Hakai
2016-02-17, 20:26
>True Form Sirzechs
> Serious Crom
>Longinus Balance Breaker spam

http://i.imgsafe.org/75d1522.jpg

sunsengnim
2016-02-17, 20:47
My man Issei gets back up.
This is going to be a good volume after all.

LowCholesterol
2016-02-17, 22:24
Never say goodbye....

aaaand Ishibumi decided to add Lavinia into DxD verse.

B214
2016-02-17, 22:45
The last few lines by Ophis, the death vibe in it.

Ruki0089
2016-02-17, 23:54
We are ―― me and Issei, together forever.
So, Issei.
Do not cry――.

Ise crying ? Now who is gonna die anyway in this volume...

Sakuya_Hime
2016-02-18, 00:01
We are ―― me and Issei, together forever.
So, Issei.
Do not cry――.

Ise crying ? Now who is gonna die anyway in this volume...

probably Ophis or Lilith. :(

LowCholesterol
2016-02-18, 00:28
but hey, did Sakra decided to help DxD?

Chris38
2016-02-18, 00:48
Personally I doubt that Ophis is going to die ... after all she is a resident of the Hyodou mansion, which ... I believe gives her some degree of immunity against dangerous situations .

Lilith though ... might be a different matter... :(

But I still have some hope that it's just going to turn out being some relationship building between Ophis and Ise and it's not going to turn out as serious as it sounds to be when we learn the surrounding context of that quote...

Bigmac
2016-02-18, 02:40
Wasn't Ophis meant to die like 10 volumes a go until the author changed it? It sounds to me like Ophis is dying and saying they are together forever because of the Ophis power/conciousness that is inside of him? I wonder if Ophis will die and Lilith ends up living at the Hyoudou residence in her place while retaining some memory.

I hope this isn't the case though as I wanted to see some interaction with the twin lolis.

DOmus
2016-02-18, 03:38
So, who is Lavinia? Forgot about this series when volume 20 was being translated, is a character that has already been revealed or not?

Bigmac
2016-02-18, 03:45
She's a character from SlashDog I think, one of Tobios/SlashDogs companions.

Stark700
2016-02-18, 03:47
Hoping the fighting in this volume will memorable. I have a feeling this volume will get a bit dark....

n0m@n
2016-02-18, 04:49
Man, you guys sure are fast in finding the preview. Just found it 30mintues ago lol. So TLed withou knowing it was already TLed partially by someone else. Anways just pasted what I did below

High school D×D 21



To protect someone, huh..
It wouldn’t sound like me but I’m thinking that isn’t so bad.
――Hakuryuukou Vali Lucifer




I don’t want you to push yourself…but I’m sure you will end up fighting. ――Rias Gremory

The man she loves chose to stand even if his heart and body was shattered.


I will also continue to fight while believing the safety of Ise-kun ――Himejima Akeno

She had clearly became stronger compared to back then


A war is something new to me but I guess I would need to fight ――Kiba Yuuto

The clash against the Trihexa and the Evil Dragons would turn into a huge war which will drag every forces into it.


…Even someone with a God-class power can’t beat it… ――Toujou Koneko

Trihexa’s power great surpassed that of one’s imagination where it’s strength easily surpassed that of Gods.


I-I have prepared the Phoenix’s Tear… ――Ravel Phenex

A magnificent item that was made by Ravel.


Irina, Asia, this is the decisive battle! Let’s go! ――Xenovia
Yes! For the Heaven! For the people! And for everyone’s sake! ――Irina
Yes! I will protect everyone! I will make sure to protect them to the end! ――Asia

The two Holy-sword wielder and the Holy Girl who would protect everything descends down to the battlefield.


There’s someone who you want to settle the score with, isn’t there? Then leave this place to me! ――Bikou
Our leader is Vali-nya! ――Kuroka
Aren’t you going to show us more entertaining situation to me and the Holy-King sword? ――Arthur Pendragon
I! I like the both of the Heavenly Dragons of this era! ――Le Fay Pendragon

The troublemaking comrades of the White Dragon agrees to White Dragon’s determination


We shall stop the Emperor of the Beast with the spell that we created!――Rossweisse
Her research would become one of the key in this decisive battle

Now then. I shall make my move as a part of DxD――Sun Wukong
Ah man, I was supposed to be retired… But I’ll be in trouble if I don’t fight!――Jade Dragon

Mother and I shall also fight! ――Kunou
Hohoho, this is the part we have to give our all. ――Yasaka
A mere herds of Evil Dragons will be slaughtered by my servants and I! ――Tannin

Dependable allies gathers from the parts of the world under the world’s danger.

Rizevim, you sure have died while leaving behind such troublesome thing…but don’t think everything will accordingly as you planned. Do not underestimate me――Azazel

The elder of the Fallen Angels makes a strong decision to what the son of the former Lucifer had behind.

…He’s my pal… Are you going to insult Hyoudou Issei!? I won’t allow that! `――Saji

He couldn’t forgive the words that insulted his peer who had fought of the Underworld and his comrades――

So the opponent is going to be the Trihexa… Interesting! ――Crom Cruach
The Evil Dragon male didn’t take a step back even against that ‘monster’.

Then I shall also fulfill my duty as a Maou then. ――Sirzechs Lucifer
The current Lucifer makes his move!

And the Longinuses which can even slay Gods gather――

Longinus. Canis Lykaon――Balance break
――Jin, we shall slash everything. We were given the order that we can go all out today ―― Slash Dog

Longinus. Zenith Tempest――Balance break
I shall make you taste what a trump card means! ――Joker Dulio

Longinus. Absolute Demise――Balance break
Va-kun, you absolutely cannot become reckless on your own, okay? ――The Magician, Lavinia the Ice Princess

Longinus. Regulus Nemea――Balance break
Even if it may destroy my body, come into my fist! The shine of my life! ――Sairaorg Bael

Longinus. Sephiroth Graal――Balance break
Ufufu, I’m happy if someone like me can become a help. ――Valerie Tepes

Longinus? Forbidden Invaded Balor――The beast
I will definitely retrieve Valerie’s Holy Grail! And I will definitely let no one lay a finger on her! ―Gasper Balor

Longinus. True Longinus――Balance break
Now then, the will possessed in the spear. What will you tell me in this situation? ――Cao Cao

Longinus. Divine Dividing――Balance break
Azi Dahaka, I shall settle my score with you!! ――Vali Lucifer

Longinus. Boosted Gear――Balance break
Apophis! Trihexa! I won’t let you guys do as you want!
I won’t allow any more destruction even if that means that my body will reach its limit! ――Hyoudou Issei

666――
The destruction which will devour all――
In order to stop it, the DxD, the Longinuses, the warriors of different forces that had overcome their differences gathers――


Bring it on, Hakuryuukou!
Show me what a real Lucifer is made of!
――Azi Dahaka

I heard you have opened the door that surpasses the Crimson armour.
Sekiryuutei, you cannot defeat me unless you use it.
――Apophis

The two Evil Dragons that are more powerful than Rizevim Livan Lucifer stands in front of the two Heavenly Dragons!
The Hakuryuukou who was satisfied as long as there was battles――
The Sekiryuutei who simply wanted a daily life where he can simply live with laughters――
But the answers these two reached after this battles was the complete opposite――

It was a battle which was enough to change Hyoudou Issei’s thinking ways and life.

――Fourth Arc, climax

Highschool DxD 21
Coming out on 19th March

I shall always be with Ise.
So Ise.
Do not cry――

――The Dragon God of Infinity, Ophis

B214
2016-02-18, 05:02
Man, you guys sure are fast in finding the preview. Just found it 30mintues ago lol. So TLed withou knowing it was already TLed partially by someone else. Anways just pasted what I did below

Don't worry, your translation is much more appreciated than my lousy ones.

Hakai
2016-02-18, 05:05
The man she loves chose to stand even if his heart and body was shattered
I shall always be with Ise.
So Ise.
Do not cry――
Shit. Shieeeeeet
This better be just red herring like the case with Ise's parents in V20 preview


Apophis and Azi are stronger than Rizevim?
Well it was said that Azi is Crom level( probably before his training)

Seems like it's going to Vali vs Azi and Ise vs Apophis

And Va-Kun?!! :heh: :heh: :heh:

n0m@n
2016-02-18, 05:14
Don't worry, your translation is much more appreciated than my lousy ones.
You are really fast at getting info on DxD as always:D
Even faster than those who lurks on DxD thread in 2chan

I only found out after someone PMed me lol.

Shit. Shieeeeeet
This better be just red herring like the case with Ise's parents in V20 preview


Apophis and Azi are stronger than Rizevim?
Well it was said that Azi is Crom level( probably before his training)

Seems like it's going to Vali vs Azi and Ise vs Apophis

And Va-Kun?!! :heh: :heh: :heh:

Not just Ophis. But there are other several other characters with deathflag. I doubt all of them would die. There had been many deathflags in previous preveiws and no-one had died yet from the good guy's side. So we can only hope Ophis survives.

B214
2016-02-18, 05:18
You are really fast at getting info on DxD as always:D
Even faster than those who lurks on DxD thread in 2chan

I only found out after someone PMed me lol.



Not just Ophis. But there are other several other characters with deathflag. I doubt all of them would die. There had been many deathflags in previous preveiws and no-one had died yet from the good guy's side. So we can only hope Ophis survives.

I only found out that the quote was up because Gary created this thread.

Hakai
2016-02-18, 05:23
The previews are always very ominous, much more than the actual novel but this time.. this time I have a really bad feeling :(

My body can't contain all these hype and tension!!
[Burst]

Gary29
2016-02-18, 08:06
The Hakuryuukou who was satisfied as long as there was battles――
The Sekiryuutei who simply wanted a daily life where he can simply live with laughters――
But the answers these two reached after this battles was the complete opposite――

It was a battle which was enough to change Hyoudou Issei’s thinking ways and life.

Anyone else absolutely terrified by this part here? :heh:

Thanks as always for the help n0m.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-18, 08:10
Dang, those quotes are freaking ominous.

The one that worries me the most is that Ise is changing his thoughts/wish for peaceful days due to this fight.: I reeeaaally hope he doesn't become edgy MC No. 999999. I'm sick of those.

Hakai
2016-02-18, 08:13
We already saw future Ise and he's still the cool guy
So if he does decide to go full edge it's probably going to be temporary
My guess is he'll become more ruthless towards the people trying to harm his loved ones

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-18, 08:28
Considering he was fine with burning a guy alive (Hero Faction mook in v9) and nuking another into oblivion (Shalba in v11), I'd say he's already pretty ruthless.

sunsengnim
2016-02-18, 08:31
We already saw future Ise and he's still the cool guy
So if he does decide to go full edge it's probably going to be temporary
My guess is he'll become more ruthless towards the people trying to harm his loved ones

This future Issei was even more laid back and kind of playful i'm putting my money on that he's just going to become a bit more ruthless.

Or if people die that he'll see the limits of time and start pursuing his relationship with the girls more passionately.

This can only improve the series and his character in my opinion.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-18, 08:40
I really hope you guys are right. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but these quotes really give off a bad vibe to me.

Ariel_Saeba
2016-02-18, 11:44
My gratitude for translating this, sir nom@n

Oh yes, the BIG party is finally on....

I'm gonna break down my own opinion of the quote since I'm late in this party (gotta work on the god-damn Bachelor thesis... :D)

To protect someone, huh..
It wouldn’t sound like me but I’m thinking that isn’t so bad.
――Hakuryuukou Vali Lucifer


Vali's eventually taking the spotlight. I think this will make him more "human", and start finding a purpose in his life other than fighting (ramen, Indiana Jones-esque adventure, magician association, and BUTTS!) :heh:.

However, it's not like he's not gonna hurt badly in the fight. The opponent is Azi Dahaka, after all (which I have already expected when EX revealed that Vali will become a Devil Archmage in the future. He EARNED that title).

I don’t want you to push yourself…but I’m sure you will end up fighting. ――Rias Gremory

The man she loves chose to stand even if his heart and body was shattered.


I will also continue to fight while believing the safety of Ise-kun ――Himejima Akeno

She had clearly became stronger compared to back then


A war is something new to me but I guess I would need to fight ――Kiba Yuuto

The clash against the Trihexa and the Evil Dragons would turn into a huge war which will drag every forces into it.


…Even someone with a God-class power can’t beat it… ――Toujou Koneko

Trihexa’s power greatly surpassed that of one’s imagination where it’s strength easily surpassed that of Gods.


I-I have prepared the Phoenix’s Tear… ――Ravel Phenex

A magnificent item that was made by Ravel.


Irina, Asia, this is the decisive battle! Let’s go! ――Xenovia
Yes! For the Heaven! For the people! And for everyone’s sake! ――Irina
Yes! I will protect everyone! I will make sure to protect them to the end! ――Asia

The two Holy-sword wielder and the Holy Girl who would protect everything descends down to the battlefield.

There’s someone who you want to settle the score with, isn’t there? Then leave this place to me! ――Bikou
Our leader is Vali-nya! ――Kuroka
Aren’t you going to show us more entertaining situation to me and the Holy-King sword? ――Arthur Pendragon
I! I like the both of the Heavenly Dragons of this era! ――Le Fay Pendragon

The troublemaking comrades of the White Dragon agrees to White Dragon’s determination

We shall stop the Emperor of the Beast with the spell that we created!――Rossweisse
Her research would become one of the key in this decisive battle

Now then. I shall make my move as a part of DxD――Sun Wukong
Ah man, I was supposed to be retired… But I’ll be in trouble if I don’t fight!――Jade Dragon Yu-Long

Mother and I shall also fight! ――Kunou
Hohoho, this is the part we have to give our all. ――Yasaka
A mere herds of Evil Dragons will be slaughtered by my servants and I! ――Tannin

Dependable allies gathers from the parts of the world under the world’s danger.

Rizevim, you sure have died while leaving behind such troublesome thing…but don’t think everything will accordingly as you planned. Do not underestimate me――Azazel

The elder of the Fallen Angels makes a strong decision to what the son of the former Lucifer had behind.

…He’s my pal… Are you going to insult Hyoudou Issei!? I won’t allow that! `――Saji

He couldn’t forgive the words that insulted his peer who had fought of the Underworld and his comrades――

So the opponent is going to be the Trihexa… Interesting! ――Crom Cruach
The Evil Dragon male didn’t take a step back even against that ‘monster’.

Then I shall also fulfill my duty as a Maou then. ――Sirzechs Lucifer
The current Lucifer makes his move!



Everyone goes all out with their powers. Nothing more to say. But this makes me wonder, why does Shiva of all people not have his own quote included? (although justified with the idea of his being a back-up). I even suspect that many of our heroes will have their turn to receive good beating from the Number of the Beast before resolving to their will. And yes, the body bags will probably higher in this one than that like Volume 16, 18, or even 12, but who gets the wrong end of the stick, we'll see.

And the Longinuses which can even slay Gods gather――

Longinus. Canis Lykaon――Balance break
――Jin, we shall slash everything. We were given the order that we can go all out today ―― Slash Dog

Longinus. Zenith Tempest――Balance break
I shall make you taste what a trump card means! ――Joker Dulio

Longinus. Absolute Demise――Balance break
Va-kun, you absolutely cannot become reckless on your own, okay? ――The Magician, Lavinia the Ice Princess

Longinus. Regulus Nemea――Balance break
Even if it may destroy my body, come into my fist! The shine of my life! ――Sairaorg Bael

Longinus. Sephiroth Graal――Balance break
Ufufu, I’m happy if someone like me can become a help. ――Valerie Tepes

Longinus? Forbidden Invaded Balor――The beast
I will definitely retrieve Valerie’s Holy Grail! And I will definitely let no one lay a finger on her! ―Gasper Balor

Longinus. True Longinus――Balance break
Now then, the will possessed in the spear. What will you tell me in this situation? ――Cao Cao

Longinus. Divine Dividing――Balance break
Azi Dahaka, I shall settle my score with you!! ――Vali Lucifer

Longinus. Boosted Gear――Balance break
Apophis! Trihexa! I won’t let you guys do as you want!
I won’t allow any more destruction even if that means that my body will reach its limit! ――Hyoudou Issei

Longinus party. No particular words I can put on. And Lavinia finally appears as I expected (but dunno whether she can become Vali's restraining bolt or other roles. As a trivia, in Slash/Dog Lavinia mainly acted like a doting sister to Vali). I didn't expect Valerie to join the fight, though (I thought she will be in the rear lines with Asia).

666――
The destruction which will devour all――
In order to stop it, the DxD, the Longinuses, the warriors of different forces that had overcome their differences gathers――


Bring it on, Hakuryuukou!
Show me what a real Lucifer is made of!
――Azi Dahaka

I heard you have opened the door that surpasses the Crimson armour.
Sekiryuutei, you cannot defeat me unless you use it.
――Apophis

The two Evil Dragons that are more powerful than Rizevim Livan Lucifer stands in front of the two Heavenly Dragons!
The Hakuryuukou who was satisfied as long as there was battles――
The Sekiryuutei who simply wanted a daily life where he can simply live with laughters――
But the answers these two reached after this battles was the complete opposite――

It was a battle which was enough to change Hyoudou Issei’s thinking ways and life.

The designated dragon fight with the result that change the Heavenly Dragons' views...

Again, I smell this to be the catalyst of how much the two has changed in three decades in EX, with Ise being more pragmatic, protective and serious with the relationship of his BIG family, and ruthless, but he will still uphold his "No killing unless the enemy is irredeemable" creed, while Vali will take a level in kindness and even goes to become some kind of a parental substitute.

Well, to describe how heartless Ise has become to his enemies in the future...
The huge dragon… Ise grabbed a mechanical arm on his large hand and used the fingers to pick his nose.

Yeah, he went that far. :D

High school D×D 21

――Fourth Arc, climax

Highschool DxD 21
Coming out on 19th March

I shall always be with Ise.
So Ise.
Do not cry――

――The Dragon God of Infinity, Ophis

Dying, yeah, but not dead. I won't go that far since Ophis will meet Lilith, who I think will become some kind of her "life support".

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-18, 11:59
Ise stopped giving a crap about the "no killing" policy in v9. The only reason Euclid was left alive were A) Because he was too strong, and B) Because they needed an information source.

II Maestro
2016-02-18, 12:54
The hype for this volume~!

Hoping nothing will happen to Ophis ... I wonder what Great Red intends to do once trihexa enters the dimensional gap ... will it be a battle between Apocalypse Dragon v.s. Apocalypse beast?

DragoMuseveni
2016-02-18, 15:30
The hype for this volume~!

Hoping nothing will happen to Ophis ... I wonder what Great Red intends to do once trihexa enters the dimensional gap ... will it be a battle between Apocalypse Dragon v.s. Apocalypse beast?

That will ruin everything they are trying now . A fight between those two apocalypse beast will ruin the world


I hope that Vali will have a power up in this volume , if not equivalent with DxD at least almost as powerful as DxD

saw2097
2016-02-18, 17:50
Rather ominous, sounds like Ophis will be the key to this whole thing.

The author is certainly hyping this one up.

amtro
2016-02-18, 19:05
Azazel, Ophis, Sirzechs, Serafall, Great Red. Anyone else I should add to the list of those waving their deathflags proudly?

beast 666
2016-02-18, 19:27
well I wonder if in this volume ophis or Lilith will die because according to his dialogue looks as if he were to die, but I doubt that it passes since it is somewhat unlikely that that will happen, although the official synopsis of the v21 translated of my here I leave is not if there is already another that translated it but here is


SYNOPSIS V21: Invasion of the Trihexa [666] began with sky, underworld and the world today, Iseei can do nothing because still in coma by the effect of the power of the Dragon goddess, so this time you may not fight. In this trial of the three great powers only may act be Vali, a sempai from the Hakoryuukou will tell you something unexpected, that a big battle is outbreak by the fate of the world.

saw2097
2016-02-18, 19:42
Maybe Ophis sacrifices herself to revive Ise from the coma.

Tbolt
2016-02-18, 23:23
In vol 20 everyone but a few people were up in arms because Ise's parents were "going to die" and guess what they didn't die, and I think it will be the same way with Ophis. And I always fall back on the quote from early in the story from Ichiei that no one in Ise's world will die. So I will beleave it when I read that someone in Ise's world dies but that's just me.

Ruki0089
2016-02-19, 01:04
Oh my god... This volume was the best volume of dxd series...!!
Vali is getting closer to Dante... You can get absolute power as long you don't abandoned your humanity And have something to protect... Who is vali gonna protect? His team? Or someone else? We don't know the answer...

Ariel_Saeba
2016-02-19, 01:45
Azazel, Ophis, Sirzechs, Serafall, Great Red. Anyone else I should add to the list of those waving their deathflags proudly?

Don't start with that mate... or should I add more? How about the likes of Shemhaza and the Longinus users?

AD3LF0N53
2016-02-19, 02:26
An action-packed volume, eh? Looking forward to it.

DOmus
2016-02-19, 02:51
So, what did Azi and Apophis do? Will be useful info to refresh my mind. I really need to re read the last couple volumes...

Hakai
2016-02-19, 03:24
So, what did Azi and Apophis do? Will be useful info to refresh my mind. I really need to re read the last couple volumes...

Read the novel.
Stop being lazy


Kidding :p

They seem to have control over Trihexa
As the ending of the V20 says the fate of the world is in their hands now

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-19, 05:34
Azi and Apophis took over Qlippoth after Riz was killed. They themselves did nothing of importance really. Riz had done all the work beforehand.

RED IV
2016-02-19, 08:16
this entire volume sounds like the definition of the word action

Ruki0089
2016-02-19, 08:41
Yes action, no ecchi. Soo sad....I miss ecchi dxd...

AD3LF0N53
2016-02-19, 08:46
So, what did Azi and Apophis do? Will be useful info to refresh my mind. I really need to re read the last couple volumes...

Some renegade spec-ops guys stole a weaponized super nuke.

Yes action, no ecchi. Soo sad....I miss ecchi dxd...

This is DxD. The ecchi here is unpredictable.

Hokoga
2016-02-19, 08:59
Yes action, no ecchi. Soo sad....I miss ecchi dxd...The ecchi'ness was shelved for a slightly more serious plot and so the fans won't become too agitated with the constant cockblocking that had no good reason behind it.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-19, 09:32
I don't care about the cockblocking. I'd rather pay attention to other aspects of a story than a fictional character's sex life. The ecchi in DxD was always good IMO because they always showed enough to be a good ecchi scene but never entered pseudo-hentai areas.

And if we count Ise's perverted antics during battle, it also helps to set the "Yes, this is THAT kind of series" mood that made it so charming in the first place.

And let's be honest, comedy is somethinng that this series basically depends to work.

Well, this discussion is worthless anyay, according to someone in the After v20 Thread (I think it was B214 who said it), in the 5th Arc Ishi will go back to the ecchi feel of the first 3 arcs.

Hakai
2016-02-19, 09:51
More than the ecchi scenes I'm looking forward to the romantic moments of the last arc.
Hopefully with girls other than Rias and Asia as well

DOmus
2016-02-19, 11:05
Read the novel.
Stop being lazy


Kidding :p

They seem to have control over Trihexa
As the ending of the V20 says the fate of the world is in their hands now

I kinda remember that, I meant more like, do they have a personal grudge against them(like Azi to Vali and Apophis to Issei)? or it actually would not matter if they fought a different adversary?

Ariel_Saeba
2016-02-19, 11:11
I kinda remember that, I meant more like, do they have a personal grudge against them(like Azi to Vali and Apophis to Issei)? or it actually would not matter if they fought a different adversary?

Vali and his team had fought Azi before (during the Vampire Civil War, Vol. 16 IIRC) and he was losing before being interrupted by Qlippoth. Vali wants a rematch.

Dunno about Ise vs Apophis (or Apep, if you prefer) since AFAIK they never actually meet before Vol. 20.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-19, 12:00
Apophis and Azi had never even appeared before v20. Azi fought the Vali Team in v16, but that's it. It was also mentioned that Apophis made a deal with Hades, but he doesn't have done anythng against Ise personnally.

beast 666
2016-02-19, 18:32
Good points of view, I think that Highschool dxd is very criticized by the side of the Ecchi because they always regard this anime as "a anime that only teaches breasts". Knowing that the truth is another since its history is very good to be an anime that is not classified as "Shonen" since it has a history very deep as admirable to see us readers in my opinion DxD with its Ecchi "a unique anime" makes it look compared To Love Ru already that this what abounds are Ecchi unnecessary (will not challenge me not hate this anime is only the truth is my opinion I don't judge)

While the theme of Apophis and Azi Dahaka only hope that vali were faced with Azi since if it kills the together with what remains of the khaos bridage fall, this to my excited of seeing already that will be very interesting this fight and its outcome.

I doubt the deathflag of ophis

DragonOsman
2016-02-19, 18:54
@DOmus: Yeah, like others have said, Azi-Dahaka and Apophis themselves haven't done anything to Ise directly. Azi-Dahaka and Vali just have a score to settle and I guess Apophis is interested in fighting the Sekiryuutei.

As for the ecchi-ness, I do like it. But I'd also be glad if the editor and publisher changed their stance on the sex, as it currently seems they aren't even allowing any implied sex (i.e. a situation where it happens off-screen and Ishi just implies that it happened). Right now, the only thing setting my mind at ease even a bit about that is EX.

Anyway, I'm glad that the quotes for Volume 21 are out now. And like most of you guys are saying, I, too, am very doubtful about the deathflag on Ophis amounting to anything. But rather than dying, she could also be fusing with Lilith to become Complete Ophis again. Meaning she'll always be with Ise as her complete self. Either or she'll really die, by sacrificing herself, but a part of her will still remain in Ise because he has DxD mode.

I'm looking forward to the Vali vs. Azi-Dahaka and Ise vs. Apophis fights, especially.

It's also good, though, Lavinia is appearing in the DxD-verse now. I really liked her in Slash/Dog.

And from the looks of it, it also seems like Rose might manage to finish developing her sealing spell in Volume 21. Hopefully it works. If not, it should at least weaken the Beast.

As for how it's saying that the Two Heavenly Dragons' views will change, I hope Ise still at least remains a perverted guy that cares a lot for his loved ones. That is the core thing about this personality that shouldn't change, ever.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-19, 20:05
Uh, isn't Slash/Dog set in the DxD-verse? I mean, it's just a prequel, right?

n0m@n
2016-02-19, 20:17
Well, Slash Dog isnt actually a prequel of DxD according to Ishibumi.
1. It is set in the same world as DxD.
2. It takes place few years before DxD.
3. Characters that appears on Slash/Dog will appear on DxD, and vice-versa.
But Ishibumi stated that its still a seperate series from DxD (even with all the three points above:heh:).

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-19, 20:26
That is basically the definition of a prequel. '-' Ishibumi is nuts.

beast 666
2016-02-19, 20:36
There are rumors will Slash/Dog shall have a v2 according ichiei on Twitter

DragonOsman
2016-02-19, 20:38
@Chichi: Yeah, he's nuts. That really is the very definition of a prequel.

When I said that in my previous, I just meant that Lavinia will finally appear in the main series. Main story part of the DxD-verse, I guess?

Edit: One post late.

Hakai
2016-02-20, 00:19
I'm a bit surprised though, with Azi and Apophis being stronger than Rizevim
Even if he was the weakest one, he still was a Super Devil

Apophis saying Crimson mode is not going to cut it and Ise needs DxD to defeat him makes me think we're going to see some upgrades on the Crimson Queen

I really hope he doesn't use DxD next volume, at least against Apophis because
1:The more casually he uses it, the more nerf it's going to get
2:It wouldn't feel right after making the backlash of using this mode such a big deal.... Unless Ophis decides to sacrifice herself or some shit to give him a stable DxD(pls no, Ishi :/ )

Seafoam
2016-02-20, 00:31
I'm a bit surprised though, with Azi and Apophis being stronger than Rizevim
Even if he was the weakest one, he still was a Super Devil

Apophis saying Crimson mode is not going to cut it and Ise needs DxD to defeat him makes me think we're going to see some upgrades on the Crimson Queen

I really hope he doesn't use DxD next volume, at least against Apophis because
1:The more casually he uses it, the more nerf it's going to get
2:It wouldn't feel right after making the backlash of using this mode such a big deal.... Unless Ophis decides to sacrifice herself or some shit to give him a stable DxD(pls no, Ishi :/ )

Super Devil is basically just a ranking for a Devil above "Maou" level at this point. We knew Apophis and Azi Dahaka were top tier among the Evil Dragons already, and they probably got modified by the Grail at some point too, so it's not surprising to me really.

Hakai
2016-02-20, 00:53
I don't think just being above Maou Class is enough to be a Super Devil

I heard from Sensei that there are three Devils who are called in such way in the past. Because they had abilities that are too much beyond the other Devils. They are irregular existences which make people question whether they are even Devils

That kind of portrayal is considerably above Maou Class
There are several Maou Class devils

But yeah, Azi was already said to be 'equal' to Crom
So maybe i shouldn't be that surprised

Seafoam
2016-02-20, 01:01
I don't think just being above Maou Class is enough to be a Super Devil



That kind of portrayal is considerably above Maou Class
There are several Maou Class devils

But yeah, Azi was already said to be 'equal' to Crom
So maybe i shouldn't be that surprised

I thought that at first but look at how easily Rizevim got curbstomped by Issei. He even wondered how Rizevim was considered one. I kinda feel like Ishibumi retconned his strength and nerfed him a bit though

XFire
2016-02-20, 01:24
I thought that at first but look at how easily Rizevim got curbstomped by Issei. He even wondered how Rizevim was considered one. I kinda feel like Ishibumi retconned his strength and nerfed him a bit though

Rizeviem was physically and mentally exhausted from being butchered thousands of times over by Fafnir, and still held the line against Issei (who if you believe the hype was literally infinitely strong at that point) for a while.

Hakai
2016-02-20, 01:25
I'd take Azazel and the underworld's opinion over Ise on that one

He tends to unreasonably downplay and shit talk his opponents at the last moment(the shit talking part is justified), did the same shit to Euclid

Heck, did he even see Sirzechs in his true form?
He shouldn't have any idea on what level a Super Devil should be unless he's seen Sirzechs or Ajuka getting serious

Also could be that he didn't realize his own strength in that form
It was powered by Ophis and made the Sekiryuutei's ability 'limitless' according Ddraig so Rizevim was bound to get stomped

Chris38
2016-02-20, 01:30
Personally I doubt that Ise is going to be capable of using DxD mode so soon after his last use.

Since, just like Longinus Smasher I believe that it's going to have some pretty heavy usage restrictions ... at least until Ise manages to adapt to it's power - which is ... obviously not going to happen so quickly considering the previous pattern regarding Ise's power ups.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-20, 05:50
There's a gigantic gap between Maou-Level and Top 10 material. I'm pretty sure that was stated pretty early on, in v4 IIRC. Riz was just in-between, but still probably was stronger than most Gods.

Let's not forget he dismised an all-out, rage-fueled attack from Michael, which by default, was supposed to be Super Effective on him, without much trouble.

Hakai
2016-02-20, 07:51
You can forget about V4

Sirzechs a Top 10 is stated to be ten times stronger than the original Lucifer
Who obviously is a maou class

And that was on the quantity of aura alone, unless Lucifer had any hax better than POD the gap would be even bigger than ten times

I mean the guy is made out of POD/Demonic powers
That alone is ridiculous even without considering the 10x Lucifer aura

DragonOsman
2016-02-20, 13:58
@Cake: Unless Ise starts to really spam DxD mode unreasonably, I don't really mind. If he really ends up needing it against Apophis, it's at least understandable. But an upgrade to the Cardinal Crimson Queen does sound good. As long as it isn't a major power-up, I can see it happening, too, since Ishi said DxD mode would be Ise's final big power-up.

What we really need is for Cardinal Crimson Queen to get as powerful as Ddraig before he was sealed. Ise needs to stabilize and master it for that. What upgrades do you think Ishi might give to the mode aside from that?

As for Apophis and Azi-Dahaka being more powerful than Rizevim, I have to say it's not that surprising considering the fact that they're supposed to be legendary Evil Dragons who are a lot more powerful (and also matter much more) than Nidhogg. I don't know about Super Devils only being a class of Devils more powerful than Maou, but I do think they're supposed to be abnormally powerful Devils at least. But that being said, Rizevim was the weakest, so the main question is if these two Evil Dragons are also stronger than Sirzechs and Ajuka, since they're both much more powerful than Rizevim was and are the strongest Super Devils.

Edit: I didn't see this page at all before I posted. Ah, well.

Anyway, Cake is right about Sirzechs' power compared to the original Lucifer IMO.

But yeah, I do think Ise might not fully understand yet how much stronger he was compared to Rizevim in DxD mode, and I also doubt he knows yet how terrifyingly powerful Sirzechs is in his true form.

Hakai
2016-02-20, 14:14
The upgrade to CCQ doesn't have to be anything new or complicated
It could just be simple increase in stats
Remember what Azazel said? ''That guy's Sacred Gear's power must have increased tremendously'' for the happiness of being accepted by his parents

And DxD is not going to be his last major power up *cough*Ex spoilers *cough*
Maybe it'll be the last one we'll get to see in the main time line, by the time the story ends

I wouldn't be willing to even consider putting anyone other than 5-6 people above Sirzechs or Ajuka until they show the feats.
These two evil Dragons are weaker than Crom that's for sure.

Ajuka on the other hand was crushing several Ultimate Class devils by redirecting and modifying their own attacks, all while sitting on a chair..that's the definition of overpowered

DragonOsman
2016-02-20, 14:25
He can change the formula and power of an attack when he modifies, it, too, though, but yeah, I definitely agree about it being too overly powerful (saying "overpowered" reminds me of how they say someone was overpowered by someone else - which really means something completely different from what we intend when we say that something or someone is OP, no?).

Yeah, I do remember what Azazel said, yes. So yeah, some sort of upgrade has to me coming, at least.

I do want to know how strong Apophis and Azi-Dahaka actually are. But by Shounen rules, it makes sense that since they're the next bad guys the heroes fight after Rizevim, they'd be stronger. Major baddies in Shounen are generally progressively stronger.

Hakai
2016-02-20, 14:42
He can change the formula and power of an attack when he modifies, it, too, though, but yeah, I definitely agree about it being too overly powerful (saying "overpowered" reminds me of how they say someone was overpowered by someone else - which really means something completely different from what we intend when we say that something or someone is OP, no?).

Yeah, I do remember what Azazel said, yes. So yeah, some sort of upgrade has to me coming, at least.

I do want to know how strong Apophis and Azi-Dahaka actually are. But by Shounen rules, it makes sense that since they're the next bad guys the heroes fight after Rizevim, they'd be stronger. Major baddies in Shounen are generally progressively stronger.

Actually OP = Overpowered, at least that's how we've been saying for a while, you can Google it for further clarification :heh:

Here's my thoughts on Azi's power
The three-headed Dragon. ……I can tell he has a dense and evil aura even from this vision. ……I heard that he is called equal to that Crom Cruach, right
Now which Crom is he equal with?
The one that trained and became Heavenly Dragon class or the one from before who was still considered the strongest evil dragon?

I'd say it's the latter because not many people should know about Crom's training and him being Heavenly Dragon class was just Ddraig's speculation

So he's probably around pre-training Crom level, maybe a bit higher through Holy Grail
But we'll really know in the next volume, Ishi put him in a pretty important position so his strength might be retconned

coded321
2016-02-20, 14:43
that summary gives me final volume vibes

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-20, 15:30
It was already confirmed by Ishi there'll be another arc.

DragonOsman
2016-02-20, 16:58
@Cake (about OP): Be that as it may, the dictionary definition is the dictionary definition and that one will tell you otherwise. When we say that something is OP, dictionary-wise it should mean "overly powerful". To overpower someone or something means something entirely different ("to overcome, master, or subdue by superior force" - dictionary.reference.com, first definition out of the four listed).

Anyways, yeah, you're probably right about Azi-Dahaka being as powerful as Crom Cruach before his training. We'll see, though. A confirmation of how strong Azi-Dahaka and Apophis really are would be great.

@Chichi (about another arc being confirmed): Yep. It's true.

beast 666
2016-02-20, 19:51
from my point of visit Azi Dahaka and Apophis, showed that they are cowards because they have not been able to fight without having someone more powerful by his side always with Rizevim and now Thihexa right?, since perhaps more powerful than issei in Cardinal Carmesi mode, but if really they were that always be in the shadow of one more powerful that the? , and Apophis comment "no can beat me with your cardinal Camersi", this I dislike, since if issei again uses the DXD mode it is clear that this time will die, so I hope of Vali look amazing in this v21 and see something more than vali and his power

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-20, 20:44
I wouldn't say they are cowards. They are just really, really shallow characters. The closest resemblance to something unique to them is Azi's 3 personalities. And even then, that's just a quirk.

DragonOsman
2016-02-21, 13:13
Yeah. Also, I really doubt Ise will die just from using DxD mode. I'm sure he can handle it. Plus, that line Apophis really makes me want to read the Ise vs. Apophis fight.

Tbolt
2016-02-22, 11:08
Don't forget about Crom's banana power up, don't look down on the power of the banana.

Rieyay
2016-02-22, 17:18
We are ―― me and Issei, together forever.

So, Issei.

Do not cry――.

―Infinite Dragon Ophis

Does this imply Ophis dies and she will remain with Issei because he has "her/her power" in him ;_;
ISHI JUST DONT DO ITTTTT

DragonOsman
2016-02-22, 17:18
Are you saying Ise can get stronger from a banana because he's a Dragon? Well, then it goes double for him, sort of, since bananas are also good for humans (it's just that they don't make us stronger, per say).

Edit: One post late.
@Rieyay: I'm pretty sure Ophis isn't dying. We've had plenty of death-flags, and yet none of the good guys have died yet (thankfully). But something might still happen, short of her actually dying, so just brace yourself.

Rieyay
2016-02-22, 17:26
@Rieyay: I'm pretty sure Ophis isn't dying. We've had plenty of death-flags, and yet none of the good guys have died yet (thankfully). But something might still happen, short of her actually dying, so just brace yourself.

Yeah but this isn't Ophis' first death-flag. She had one before but Ishi had a change of mind. This gives her a higher chance of death I guess.

beast 666
2016-02-22, 18:49
Issei more strong with a banana? From my point of view I think perhaps not be true, since only the Dragons banana likes (that wrong was listen to this) and does not increase you more power, as we can see it in the only Asia v20 gave him a banana only Crom by this want it now to your first comment to try the banana was "Ummn Delicious " never could see an increase in their aura truth? But if ichei in the future tell us that bananas makes more strong to The dragons would be something very surprising, while what they say about Ophis and his presumed death, according to some rumors say that only Ophis she change change of roles with issei ( She this coma and not issei) since at a time may need the help of issei maybe yet this confirmed nothing

Bigmac
2016-02-22, 19:10
Just a thought but what if Ophis uses her power in her injured state to put Issei into Diabolos Dragon form to defeat Apophis, against his protests of course. This ends up draining her strength making her much weaker, eventually leading to her death. A pain worse than death, how about Issei's pain by feeling guilty for the death of Ophis, which changes his views.

That probably won't happen but I still think something bad will happen to Ophis. I think she will die and will be replaced by Lilith living at Issei's place and with Lilith retaining some memories of being complete Ophis. Death Flag + Author mentions volume 21 will be much darker + didn't the author mention there will be a epilogue in volume 22? Anyhow it doesn't look good for her.

Rieyay
2016-02-22, 19:33
Just a thought but what if Ophis uses her power in her injured state to put Issei into Diabolos Dragon form to defeat Apophis, against his protests of course. This ends up draining her strength making her much weaker, eventually leading to her death. A pain worse than death, how about Issei's pain by feeling guilty for the death of Ophis, which changes his views.

That probably won't happen but I still think something bad will happen to Ophis. I think she will die and will be replaced by Lilith living at Issei's place and with Lilith retaining some memories of being complete Ophis. Death Flag + Author mentions volume 21 will be much darker + didn't the author mention there will be a epilogue in volume 22? Anyhow it doesn't look good for her.

Maybe Ishibumi comes up with shit like transfering Ophis' consciousness to Lillith's but it wouldnt be the same. Ophis will most likely die ;_;
My body which was more than ready for Vol21 contains now raw fear :(

Darth Fanta
2016-02-22, 19:53
I highly doubt Ophis will die.If she will,it wouldn't be in the preview.

beast 666
2016-02-22, 19:55
I can only say that if Ophis dies in this volume will be very sad to see, not the ophis if not for that will be a great loss for issei and his team, and in the fight against Trihexa it needed though as they say here the fact that the v21 is very dark can mean a lot of large losses and this perhaps mean a great story in es you volume

Gary29
2016-02-22, 20:34
I still think Ophis will get a mana power transfer from Lilith to stay alive after her injuries / possibly sustaining more. Or more like sharing some of her energy.

DragonOsman
2016-02-22, 20:40
@Beast: We aren't fully serious when talking about banana power-up for Dragons - you know that, right? Please don't take it so seriously. And by the way, Ise can be counted as a Dragon because he's a Heavenly Dragon host. After Volume 12, it's even more so, since he now he has a body made of Great Red's flesh and is considered a mini-True Dragon. There's also the part in EX where he appears in the form a 100 meter long gigantic Dragon.

@Bigmac: I really hope that what you said there doesn't happen.
Edit: One post late.
@Gary: Well, as long as Ophis is still alive. And in situations where a complete Ophis would be needed, Lilith and Ophis could just combine their powers.

Hakai
2016-02-22, 20:44
If something does happen to Lilith Ophis better start doing that ponytail from then on for quality control and justice's sake

Seafoam
2016-02-22, 21:02
If something does happen to Lilith Ophis better start doing that ponytail from then on for quality control and justice's sake

Someone finally talking some sense around here.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-22, 21:10
If Ophis dies, but we still get Lilith, somehow that'd piss me off more. Dunno why. ._.

Don't take the twins away from me Ishi.

djakamales
2016-02-23, 05:45
Spectre Dragon egg in vol 20,maybe that egg for revive ophis ,ishibumi sensei may have a goal to put the eggs in human world,BTW any spoiler about lilith?



*sorry my bad english

n0m@n
2016-02-23, 06:17
We wont get any spoiler till 18th March at earliest (since v21 release date is 19th March).
Apparently Ishibumi thought he would have to spread volume 21 into 2 books. But luckily he maintained it within 1 book (except the v21 will be quiet long). So Im guessing v21 will be approximately 400 pages long just like v5 and v9.

And the fourth arc will finally finish.... It sure was a long story arc. 3 years 6 month if we count from v13 or 3 years if we count from v14. V22 will be both the epilogue of story arc 4 and a prologue of story arc 5 apparently. Story arc 5 being the final story arc.

Ariel_Saeba
2016-02-23, 08:43
Yep, the possibilities of Ophis not dead is there, but Ishi has raised the flag to half a pole... I'm still on the premise of her being alive, though, with Azazel has promised Lilith to meet Ophis and the Dragon God wanted to see a dragon born from an egg.

For the length of the arc, I agree. It is very much like the Fourth Shinobi World War arc in Naruto (which lasted the longest). From what I can infer, the fifth story arc will give closing to the entire haremette's story and the conflicts of the Alliance (If the Malebranche will indeed be the bad guys).

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 08:55
So there won't be a Destruction God Shiva Arc? I was kind of looking forward to that, too.

And yeah, that's a pretty good point about Azazel's promise to Lilith and also the part about the Spectre egg.

Gary29
2016-02-23, 09:14
So there won't be a Destruction God Shiva Arc? I was kind of looking forward to that, too.

Yes there will. The last arc will likely feature the Malebranche + Shiva or whoever the Hindu antagonist will be as the enemies.

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 09:23
So even though it'll be called "Destruction God Shiva Arc," Shiva might not really be the main antagonist for the arc?

djakamales
2016-02-23, 09:26
samehow i still think azazel died in war or after war


The Destruction God Shiva arc afterworld vol 13 ishibumi sensei maybe this vol for started that arc

a traitor,if we dont have a traitor in this vol,maybe vol 22 will be full oppai,ecchi, vali interested with ramen,:D

Ariel_Saeba
2016-02-23, 09:27
I was hoping for Shiva to be an anti-villain rather than a straight-up villain, which he has shown this shade since his first appearance (opposing our heroes out of necessity, things like that), and Malebranche being tricksters, yet they can hold on their own in a fight (in Inferno, they almost outsmart Dante and Virgil for F's sake :D).

Gary29
2016-02-23, 09:29
So even though it'll be called "Destruction God Shiva Arc," Shiva might not really be the main antagonist for the arc?

You're asking things no one can answer but Ishibumi himself. All we know is that the final arc revolves around Shiva, and the Malebranche will probably be a subplot of villains. Like we had with Hades during the Hero-faction arc, but on a much greater scale.

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 09:35
I was just asking to see if you knew anything. Never mind if you don't, though. Sorry.

@djakamales: The apparent Destruction God Shiva Arc will be the upcoming arc, actually. In the 4th Arc, the main antagonist was Rizevim until he died, but now it's Apophis and Azi Dahaka. And Shiva may or may not be the main villain in the Destruction God Shiva Arc, too.

djakamales
2016-02-23, 09:46
I was just asking to see if you knew anything. Never mind if you don't, though. Sorry.

@djakamales: The apparent Destruction God Shiva Arc will be the upcoming arc, actually. In the 4th Arc, the main antagonist was Rizevim until he died, but now it's Apophis and Azi Dahaka. And Shiva may or may not be the main villain in the Destruction God Shiva Arc, too.

i think Apophis and Azi Dahaka will died this vol :) couse issei with dxd mode or he awaken and become a big dragon mode like in dxd ex ,vali Juggernaut Over Drive so we need a new enemy :)

Seafoam
2016-02-23, 10:40
You're asking things no one can answer but Ishibumi himself. All we know is that the final arc revolves around Shiva, and the Malebranche will probably be a subplot of villains. Like we had with Hades during the Hero-faction arc, but on a much greater scale.

Don't assume this is the Shiva arc until it's proven. All he said is he'd do one as a "last resort".

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 10:55
^There's that, too, yeah. That "last resort" bit (strangely, saying, "bit" just now reminded of the bits in binary numbering - binary digits, bits).

@djakamales: Nah, they'll die in the final battle of Arc 4 (the current arc). They're the final villains for this arc, after all, along with Trihexa.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 10:58
The 5th arc's not even called Shiva's Destruction Arc. It's named "something something Festival something."

Gary29
2016-02-23, 11:00
Don't assume this is the Shiva arc until it's proven. All he said is he'd do one as a "last resort".

We shouldn't assume anything knowing Ishibumi, but it seems highly probable.

Something like an Evil Dragon smells like they were added in quite late! Maybe you might be thinking like that when you were reading it, but I just used the secret setting which I thought I wasn’t going to use. That’s because I didn’t expect it to continue this far…… But please be rest assured. Even if Shiva arc doesn’t become possible, fourth story arc will end properly like how it should. I have already decided on the last part of the fourth story arc. If I was able to write the Shiva arc, please think of it as the extra stage. At the end, it will depend on the support of all of you……so I will continue to write.

But you're right that he could have changed his mind again. Actually, now that I think about it more, he probably did change his mind.....

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 11:05
@Chichi: That's not the name of the arc, it's just the name of Volume 21 I think. The arc names aren't the same as the Volume names.

@Gary: Good point. He can still change his mind. He did that when deciding which character the focus of Volume 20 will be on. At first he was thinking of making it Vali's Volume, but then he changed his mind and made it Ise's Volume. The reason for the change is mentioned in the Volume 20 Afterward and I think it's a pretty good reason, but still.

saw2097
2016-02-23, 11:31
He does change his mind but I am pretty sure that this next arc will be the Destruction God Shiva arc, with the Malebranche as sub villains for the weaker DxD members.

Even if he has other ideas, he can't keep doing stories in a High School setting forever, it is eventually going to get stale. If he has further ideas they will probably appear in a sequel series.

Also Ise is getting pretty overpowered, once he figures out how to use his new DxD mode more efficiently than there aren't many more villains that can challenge him.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 11:33
No, the name of the volume is Lucifer of the Optional Attendance.

Chris38
2016-02-23, 11:35
On a topic more related with volume 21 ( since I think we are slightly going off topic )

I wonder if there is going to be anything mentioned about Ise's Evil Pieces or the instability of his current bodies lifespan.

After all both of those aspects of Ise's body condition might be a prat of the price that Ise had to pay for using DxD mode ... since, after all it's a power that belongs to the God class - or at the very least is pretty close to it ... either way it's sufficient IMHO to cause some changes within the remaining normal pieces that Ise has within his body andthe awakening / usage of Ophis's power might have also changed the balance between her and Great Red's power within Ise's current body causing it to lean more toward the infinite rather then the dream...

@saw2097

Assuming that's going to even happen during the remaining arc of the story... after all I assume that the final arc is going to last the remaining school year ending with Ise's graduation from the Academy ( and officially becoming Rias's husband in the Underworld :heh: :D ) ... which makes me doubt tht in that short period of time he is going to figure how to resolve all the restrictions that the DxD mode is going to have...

Especially considering the fact that it's not the only power that Ise still has to master... and he still has a quite long period of time ahead of him to develop his 'combat abilities'.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 11:46
Ise isn't even near being Top 10 materiaal. He has a long way to go before being considered OP.

Hakai
2016-02-23, 12:14
Ise isn't even near being Top 10 materiaal. He has a long way to go before being considered OP.
Diabolos has both the feats and hype to be in top 10

But it's not very reliable and only usable for a little time and it screws him pretty bad afterwards so I wouldn't consider Ise top 10 just now

Seafoam
2016-02-23, 12:17
Diabolos has both the feats and hype to be in top 10

But it's not very reliable and only usable for a little time and it screws him pretty bad afterwards so I wouldn't consider Ise top 10 just now

Feats? All it did was beat Rizevim, who was weaker than we all imagined. Logic > Hype.

Hakai
2016-02-23, 12:23
Feats? All it did was beat Rizevim, who was weaker than we all imagined. Logic > Hype.

Rizevim had an auto i win card against Sacred Gear users, Ise still won, no he stomped, without penetrate

That makes it more than just beating someone of Rizevim's level

And what logic do you speak of? If that mode failed to live up to it's hype only then we will start questioning the hype
He has only fought one person so far and he outclassed that opponent in every possible way

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 12:25
Dragon Deification, once mastered, will still give him power equal to or greater than Ophis' in her prime, though. Before that, he has to master the Cardinal Crimson Queen form, too, which will give Heavenly Dragon level power. That's OP, no?

Edit: Three posts late.
I'm with Cake on this one. Rizevim's no slouch, and DxD mode builds off of the Cardinal Crimson Queen so it can be considered a part of it. Therefore, it's Sacred Gear related. Yet the Sacred Gear Canceler couldn't completely negate it even though Ddraig said it worked.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 12:29
Beating someone who isn't in the Top 10, no matter how easily, doesn't warrant him being in the Top 10. That's a huge leap of logic. It's like saying someone is Great Red Class because he or she's stronger than Shiva.

@Osman: EX made me doubt that a lot. 30 years and yet a bunch of God-Classes were a global threat.

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 12:32
Future Ise completely dominated, when he appeared, though, didn't he? The ones from the future who we saw fighting before that were all his kids, who aren't as powerful as him. If Future Ise had come from the start, beating them would've been as easy as taking candy from a baby.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 12:33
If Future ISe was as strong as Ophis, there wouldn't have been any war at all. Just a massacre.

Hakai
2016-02-23, 12:34
Beating someone who isn't in the Top 10, no matter how easily, doesn't warrant him being in the Top 10. That's a huge leap of logic

And ignoring direct statements that are only made recently and is yet to be proven false is just denial

And no it isn't just beating someone outside Top 10, Rizevim was his worst possible match up after Samael and Ise still stomped

B214
2016-02-23, 12:35
The concept of strength differs base on individual, so there's no absolute who is stronger than who. We can say that Ise is stronger than Kiba, but then again it doesn't mean that Kiba can't beat Ise or will lose to Ise all the time.

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 12:36
There could be reasons. The big boss was said to be on Great Red's level, after all, and some of the goons may have been enough to give Future Ise trouble even if he were as strong as complete Ophis. But it still said Ise ended the war, although it came with a price.

Edit: Two posts late.
@Cake and B214: Yeah, that too.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 12:36
Again, how would that matter? Rizevim wasn't in the Top 10. Period.

@Osman: No it wasn't. That was just Ariel's assumption. And yeah, he ended the war. That's why the enemies were still able to do whatever the fuck they wanted.
@B214: Uh, yeah there is. Everyone in the Top 10 > Everyone not in the Top 10.
It's math.

Hakai
2016-02-23, 12:42
Again, how would that matter? Rizevim wasn't in the Top 10. Period.

>_>
hype and feats
He has hype of having the power of Sekiryuutei limitless at that form and his feats so far backs it up

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 12:44
His only feat was beating a guy who isn't in the Top 10, and also was extremelly weakened, as well as exhausted for lack of sleep for weeks. That doesn't put him in the Top 10.

If Ise had actual infinite power, Rizevim would have died in the first punch.

Hakai
2016-02-23, 12:46
His only feat was beating a guy who isn't in the Top 10, and also was extremelly weakened, as well as exhausted for lack of sleep. That doesn't put him in the Top 10.

Having limitless powers does, which is a hype that comes directly from Ddraig

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 12:47
Again: If Ise had actual infinite power he'd have killed Riz in one blow, and the universe would have gone with him. Not only that, but if he had infinite power, any enemy frm now on is nothing but fodder. Unless Great Red decided to become evil, this'd be One Punch Man without the sattire.

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 12:49
Not if some of it was being negated like Ddraig implied it was.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 12:52
You can't negate a part of INFINITE. It'd still be INFINITE. Do you even know what the meaning of INFINITE is?

Hakai
2016-02-23, 12:54
Again: If Ise had actual infinite power he'd have killed Riz in one blow, and the universe would have gone with him.
uh no
Just because he had limitless power source does not mean he used all of that in that punch
His punches are as strong as the amount of powers he puts there

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 12:55
Not to mention he probably still can't fully handle all that power yet. And it being called infinite could also be narrative hyperbole for all we know (*ack*, I hate using that term).

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 12:57
Uh, yes. A part of infinite is still infinite.

If it's an hyperbole, it can't be used as an argument.

Hakai
2016-02-23, 13:02
Uh, yes. A part of infinite is still infinite.


:rolleyes:
It was never said all parts of him was infinite
Having limitless powers could mean he could put as much powers as he wants to in his attacks
Not that all his attacks are infinite by default

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 13:03
That's the concept of infinity.

Besides, Ise has a "give your all" mentality. All of his attacks have all the power he can muster. He's not the type to hold back in an actual fight. So if he truly has infinite power, his attacks would have that infinite potency, because he wouldn't be holding back even an inch.

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 13:14
But he still doesn't know how to handle all that power yet, for sure. That was his first time ever in that form, after all. And you did notice how just trying to move casually ended with him moving to right in front of Rizevim in an instant without Rizevim noticing, right? He really still can't control that form yet.

Chris38
2016-02-23, 13:21
But he still doesn't know how to handle all that power yet, for sure. That was his first time ever in that form, after all. And you did notice how just trying to move casually ended with him moving to right in front of Rizevim in an instant without Rizevim noticing, right? He really still can't control that form yet.

True ... not to mention while Ophis's power might be infinite ... the amount of that power that Ise is capable of using at the moment might not be.

Basically the amount of power that Ise can use, might be related to Ise's remaining stamina ... body condition or some other factors that are related to the price that Ise had to pay for using Ophis's power.

After all unlike Ophis, Ise is not a Dragon God, since he wouldn't be capable of being revived by the Evil Pieces if that where the case ... so while he might be capable of using a God's 'power' ... he might have some restrictions to it that a 'True God' ... like Ophis doesn't have...

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 13:27
And? That proves this mode is strong. It doesn't prove it has infinite power.

If anything that shows this isn't infinite. If moving just a bit resulted into that, his attacks would have been much, much stronger if he had an infinite amount of power since he doesn't hold back.

@Chris: Just because a God can't be revived by EPs doesn't mean someone revived can't achieve the power of a God. It was said Sirzech's Rook would have been able to kill Jabberwocky if he knew how to use his full strenght. That's definitely god-Class power.

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 13:38
But Chichi, if Ise doesn't know how to bring out that infinite power, will his attacks really have infinite power? That's all we're saying.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 13:49
If he had infinite power, his attacks would have infinite power doesn't matter how much he held back. Infinity is like pregnancy. You either are or you aren't.

Hakai
2016-02-23, 13:57
No that's just your concept of infinite power

Even normal devils or other magical beings don't rise their aura to maximum level unless they are in a fight

But they all have a limit on how much they can use before they run out of MP
If someone doesn't have that limit and can keep adding more powers without ever running out that could satisfy the definition of having infinite powers

No one said his powers are raised to infinite levels all the time

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 14:08
No that's just your concept of infinite power

Even normal devils or other magical beings don't rise their aura to maximum level unless they are in a fight

But they all have a limit on how much they can use before they run out of MP
If someone doesn't have that limit and can keep adding more powers without ever running out that could satisfy the definition of having infinite powers

No one said his powers are raised to infinite levels all the time

It's his concept of infinite power, but normally it's what infinite is.

But yeah, when it comes to power, it's a little different. To begin with, at that time, Ise's stamina wasn't at full capacity. Even if DxD mode has infinite power, without enough stamina and training, he can't use that power.

sunsengnim
2016-02-23, 14:13
If he had infinite power, his attacks would have infinite power doesn't matter how much he held back. Infinity is like pregnancy. You either are or you aren't.

It's proven that in this series infinite isn't really infinite example being Ophis being able to be drained by Samael.

Ophis was seen as Infinite because she was just too strong.

Issei had just unlocked DXD he had no understanding of how to properly use it nor how to tap into it's power.

Also Rizevims sacred gear canceller was in effect and how far that drained Issei's power in his already severely weakened state is a ??? factor.

We have no clue on how strong Issei is in this new mode but what we saw could be compared to a dragon cub just being born so don't make any conclusions on this mode just yet.

Hakai
2016-02-23, 14:14
@osman:Then use limitless instead
Ddraig used the word limitless to describe that power a few times as well
No point in trying to be all nitpicky about this choice of words, Ishi is a simple writer

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 14:18
It's not my concept, it's the concept itself.

Well, duh, but Ise was in a fight, so that's not the case.

If Ise wasn't able to use infinite power, then saying the reason he steamrolled through SGC being that he has infinite power doesn't make sense at all.

@Cake: Except that he clearly showed to have limits. Otherwise, again, Riz would have been powder after one blow.

@Sunsengnim: Samael poisoned her, he didn't just drain her. After she was weakened Azazel even pointed out that she was no longer infinite. But if that's the case, it's not correct to call it infinite regardless.

Again, even if you cancel part of infinite, it's still infinite. So Ise's power is clearly finite.

Bigmac
2016-02-23, 14:30
Personally I like to think complete Ophis was infinite in the sense her powers regenerate quicker than she can spend it rather than having infinite power attacks. This would make sense because if it was the latter she wouldn't have had any trouble in booting Great Reds arse out of the Dimensional Gap.

I also like to think Issei's 'infinite' power is limited by his current body, his stamina etc.

Seafoam
2016-02-23, 14:37
^Agreed. People take the "Infinite" thing a bit too literally.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 14:44
Infinite power doesn't mean much if the other opponent also has infinite power.

If it's limited, it's not infinite.

Bigmac
2016-02-23, 14:54
There's no mention of Great Red having infinite power so that's your assumption.

Seafoam
2016-02-23, 15:03
Infinite power =/= being strong

Just saying. Infinite power in this case just refers to having more reserves, it doesn't equate to having more actual strength. There's no point in arguing about it though because Ishibumi never explained what the "Infinity" actually means. We won't get anything on it until Issei masters more of DxD mode probably.

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 15:12
^Yep. Also, if it isn't infinite amount of power, then it could just be that there's too much of it for the Sacred Gear Canceler to negate completely. And it seems infinite. But yeah, "infinite reserves" seems more likely.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 16:26
How the hell having infinite power doesn't equate being strong? ._.

My point is: DxD Mode isn't infinite in anyway whatsoever. If Ise after 30 years can't stomp a dozen God-Class beings, there's no way in hell he's infinite.

Seafoam
2016-02-23, 16:32
How the hell having infinite power doesn't equate being strong? ._.

This is in theory the same thing as the Boosted Gear but on a larger scale. Just because you have an infinite amount, that doesn't mean shit if your base level is weak. Yes yes we all know Ophis and Issei are no longer weak but I'm proving a point here.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 17:27
Uh, no. If you have an infinite amount of power, then there isn't a limit to how strong you are. I think you're talking about stamina.

And if you Boost infinite times, it's the same thing. The weakness of the BG is that noone in their right mind would wait for you to power up if you're as weak as Ise was. If he did boost infinite times, even God would be his bitch.

sunsengnim
2016-02-23, 17:34
How the hell having infinite power doesn't equate being strong? ._.

My point is: DxD Mode isn't infinite in anyway whatsoever. If Ise after 30 years can't stomp a dozen God-Class beings, there's no way in hell he's infinite.


A dozen god class beings we don't know their power levels off that can travel trough time and space and are actually machines meaning they can probably repair themselves and we know nothing of their armies.

Even if one person like Issei is beyond common sense in power one person cannot win a war no matter how strong he is.

You're oversimplifying it all.

DragonOsman
2016-02-23, 17:37
But we don't know if "infinite" for Ophis means infinite power or just infinite reserves, or if it just means an infinite lifespan. We can't be sure. And whatever "infinite" means for her is what should mean for Ise in DxD mode, too. And I think it means infinite reserves, not literally infinite power. When Ddraig said Rizevim couldn't completely negate DxD mode's power because Ophis is infinite, he probably just meant that Ise in that form has too much power for Rizevim to be able to completely negate it. Not that it's literally infinite.

Edit: Sunsengnim's also right. But I don't think we know exactly how they repair themselves.

beast 666
2016-02-23, 17:50
By that much uproar about the meaning of <infinity>? from my infinite point of view is called as a large amount of power over outgoing, (example more easy, I have a pencil that never was just the tip this proves that it is infinite since it does not have an end) with this clarification , issei on its DXD mode has a very out of limits of the power of the cardinal Carmesi This can be accomplished by considered an unstable mode for carrier, (Although in argument for the v20 is said to be the DXD mode for power without limits out of reach of the Dragons) so its power can reach exceed you limit known thanks to the power of Ophis, while what they say on, the God of destruction Shiva being a villain in this is very interesting v21.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-23, 19:31
Actually, we do know how strong they are. As strong as the likes of Odin and Zeus. So yeah, not exactly worth shit compared to the likes of Ophis.

Besides, Ise's not alone. The DxD universe has its own Chief God- Class beings, as well as the Super Devils, Longinus Users, and etc.

And they can Time Travel too. That's not exclusive to the UL.

If you throw a nuke at a billion soldiers, they are all dead.

sunsengnim
2016-02-23, 19:53
Actually, we do know how strong they are. As strong as the likes of Odin and Zeus. So yeah, not exactly worth shit compared to the likes of Ophis.

Besides, Ise's not alone. The DxD universe has its own Chief God- Class beings, as well as the Super Devils, Longinus Users, and etc.

And they can Time Travel too. That's not exclusive to the UL.

If you throw a nuke at a billion soldiers, they are all dead.

Using an attack like that has consequences Issei is trying to save the world not blow it up.
Stop ignoring the consequences of using huge amounts of power.

And the very fact they haven't beaten them yet even with all those extra gods,longinus users, etc means they aren't as weak as you're making them out to be.

They were winning the war until Issei got involved and made sacrifices to push them back.

Stop oversimplifying it all we're talking about the UL who got past Great Red they're not scrubs.

beast 666
2016-02-23, 20:01
well if we are talking about the God-Class, I wonder how will poder the God of destruction Shiva , As much is the equivalent of that power?

Hakai
2016-02-23, 21:45
Future Ise did not have scale mail on nor did he have Ophis' jet black aura/color

The one that appeared obviously wasn't his full power

If two people of Great Red's tier fighting is apocalypse level threat one being of that level fighting casually would still screw up the world significantly

And lastly, even though we don't know if Melvazoa is Great Red level or not it was never confirmed he was much weaker, we have no confirmation of his strength level
And even if he's weaker hax and surprise attack can always take someone by surprise no matter how strong they are, even Ophis was taken down and Trihexa was sealed.
They are strong but they can be dealt with

Amuris
2016-02-24, 02:17
This conversation seems a little weird. It seems like a lot of people started reducing strength to power or power-type. You guys remember technique types to, right? More on point, the Hindu gods were said to be strong cuz a lot of them have "tricky" abilities, right? As for the Ophis vs GR thing, their equal in level but have contradicting powers, like the red and white. They're just a more extreme form of boost and divide. Again, one increases infinitely (or just has infinite, doesn't actually matter. you should get why in a sec) the other decreases all to zero.

Basically, the amount of power isn't really the issue at that point, it's the concept of their power. It seems more like a rock-paper-scissors game than a matter of who has higher stats.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 05:14
I'm not making them out to be anything, That's how strong they were said to be.

If the world survived Trihexa going rampant, it will be fine with an attack or two from an equal being.

The Hindu Gods were said to have Cheat-Like Abilities. That sounds like hax to me, not technique.

I don't think it was ever implied Great Red "decreases stuff to zero".

DragoMuseveni
2016-02-24, 06:42
Maybe GR has a power that can transform dreams into reality or something among those lines, and trihexa is a beast that represents all the sins and evil of this world
And Hindu Gods do have hax power but as it is said those hax power are limited by their own power (look at rizevim hax ability )

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 08:22
I'm also on the "turning dreams into reality" camp. Is what makes more sense with his motif. Although Ishi could think of something else, this is the best bet IMO.

As for Trihexa representing all the sins and evil on earth, I can't say for sure, but I don't think so. Up to now it hasn't shown intelligence, and if it's just an animal, it can't sin or be considered evil, since animals aren't bound by morality.

The limitations of hax depends on the writer actually. Gold Experience Requiem, from JoJo, has some hax that could beat Great Red (If we consider just his raw power, he may have hax abilities we don't know of) Complete Ophis, and Trihexa fused by the Potara earrings. And it's destructive capacity is Town-Level at most.

DragonOsman
2016-02-24, 11:27
Trihexa is an amalgamation of seven different animals, and it's got seven heads that each belong to one of the seven animals. And there are Seven Deadly Sins. It fits, no?

Hakai
2016-02-24, 11:28
Ophis, and Trihexa fused by the Potara earrings.
The mental image

Can't unimagine

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 11:58
I thought it had ten heads. Or was it ten crowns with seven heads? Oh, fuck it, I'll just think of it as Multi-Bear with different heads until we get an illustration.

Seven is quite a common number in a lot of works of fiction. Seven Dragon Balls, Seven War Lords, etc... Unless it's actually pointed out, I think it's just a coincidence.

Besides, that appearence is the same as the description in the Bible, and I don't think it has anything to do with the seven sins in there.

@Cake: GR is in there too. :p

Amuris
2016-02-24, 13:25
...the Hax powers your talking about IS consider part of the technique category is what I'm saying. Technique types are suppose to rely not just on skill but tricks, like the counter mirror. Things that don't rely so much on their own power as their effect and situation. That's why Vali is a technique type with DD. or Saji's...everything. That's why they were so dangerous for power-types. They either reversed their advantage or made it irrelevant.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 13:30
Uh, no, technique is completely different from hax. Hax is an ability so overpowered power doesn't matter most of the time. Technique Types are basically people that fight in a way resembling actual martial arts because they lack the raw power.

Tsubaki's Counter Mirror is useful, but it does have a limit to how much it can absorb and reflect. Otherwise it'd be a Longinus.

Vali's not a technique type. No way in hell. All he does is nuke the opponent with magical blasts and make them weaker with DD hax. Even ISe is more of a technique type than him, and he's not much of one, if at all.

Amuris
2016-02-24, 13:53
vali was stated to be a technique/magic type while Ise is a power/support. DD is a technique type ability. Gasper is a technique type to because of Balor view. This was all discussed when they started the rating games.

DragonOsman
2016-02-24, 14:12
Yep. Saji's abilities are Technique-type ones. Technique doesn't always have to refer to only martial arts, it can be any ability that doesn't rely solely on raw power.

And Trihexa has seven heads with three horns each. Seven heads and ten horns. And each horn also has a crown.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 14:15
Vali was never stated to be Technique Type. Gasper was a technique type because he had next to no raw power, and fought by turning into a lot of bats.

Halving your enemies power is not a technique. Any dumbass with half a brain could use it.

@Osman: 3x7=21

Never said anything about Saji.

DragonOsman
2016-02-24, 14:25
I know 7 x 3 is 21, but the text in the Book of Revelation apparently said Trihexa has 10 horns. Could be an oversight of some sort, I don't know.

And Gasper would now probably be called a Technique+Power-type. Ise is a Power+Technique+Support-type.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 14:26
If it has ten horns it can't have 3 in each head. That's what I'm saying.

DragonOsman
2016-02-24, 14:32
It has seven heads and ten horns. Now I'm confused as to how many horns each head has, since it also can't have 2 on each had, either, as that would mean it has 14 horns.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 14:35
I don't get it either. Maybe math worked different at the time people wrote the bible, I dunno.

Amuris
2016-02-24, 14:57
turning into bats made him a support type. I'm bringing up Saji so that you get a look at the nature of technique types. For starters, consider how DD conceptually differs from Saji's abilities. Your still assuming it's purely a matter of how they use it. The skills themselves are inherently technique types. Even if Ria's times and plans her use of Extinguish Star, it is still a magic/power type attack. Abilities like DD and Virita are technique because they assault the opponent in ways that don't consider the users offense or the opponents defense while weakening them and making themselves stronger. Having these skills themselves is a form of strategy.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 15:02
Stopping time is the Support part of Gasper's arsenal. It's an ability, not a technique.

DD does considers the user's as well as the opponent's power. It completely DEPENDS ON IT. Divide doesn't works on beings that are much above him, and if he absorbs too much, he'll overheat like in v4.

"Having thsese skills is a form of strategy." No. Strategy is a plan. Those skills are resources. Just like how the BG isn't obligatorily a Power or a Support Type. Someone like Kiba could use it in a Technique battle style. There's no such thing as strategy without planning ahead, as well as thorough preparation.

Uh, no, It's all about how you use it. That's why Sirzechs is considered a technique type outside of his true form. Why is that so? Because of the way he uses PoD.

Amuris
2016-02-24, 15:53
that's over-generalization. Notice I said Extinguish Star and not PoD. BG isn't directly anything, yes, but Transfer is support and Boost is power. Now your bringing it up to the level of the SGs themselves. I'm talking about having or developing the individual skills from them.

Also, your statement about how Divide depends on power differs in no way from counter mirror's conditions. More so, my point was that it does not use power to assault the opponent.

Seafoam
2016-02-24, 16:25
Touching back on the Trihexa appearance; not all of the heads are supposed to have horns according to the bible iirc. And some have more than one.

DragonOsman
2016-02-24, 16:33
Then it's fine, I guess.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 16:50
Those abilities are everything the SGs have. There weren't any other abilities before Ise unlocked Reflect and Penetrate. Transfer can be used on the own person, as it was showed before, so no, it's not just for support. And Divide is used by Vali only to make the opponent weaker, so it's not technique. He still needs raw power of his own to damage the opponent.

Amuris
2016-02-24, 16:58
And Divide is used by Vali only to make the opponent weaker, so it's not technique.

That's specifically what I'm saying makes it technique.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 17:45
Except that it doesn't make it a technique.

Hakai
2016-02-24, 17:47
Chichi, what's your definition of techniques in Dxd?

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 18:50
Like I said before, a fighting style that's kinda like actual martial arts. Coordinated and thoroughly planned out attacks with feints and stuff. Basically, the way both Ise and Cao Cao fought in v9 before Triaina. Of course ignoring the PIS of some scenes. The way Kiba fights all the time.

Amuris
2016-02-24, 19:05
this is missing the point that I was trying to make though. My point was arguing about how Ise should beat everything with infinite power or Ophis being able to defeat GR just cuz she's infinite was flawed because that reduces everything to a match of raw power. A lot of the powers and fighting styles do something other than pelting others with raw power so there being opponents that can still match them isn't strange.

DragonOsman
2016-02-24, 19:21
^True.

And Chichi, I think your definition of what a technique is is flawed. It shouldn't just be limited to martial arts, after all.

Tbolt
2016-02-24, 19:45
Definition of technique in English:
noun
1A way of carrying out a particular task, especially the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure: new surgical techniques mean a shorter hospital stay the techniques used by Turner, Rembrandt, and Degas
More example sentences
1.1 [mass noun] Skill or ability in a particular field: he has excellent technique [in singular]: an established athlete with a very good technique
More example sentences
Synonyms
1.2A skillful or efficient way of doing or achieving something: tape recording is a good technique for evaluating our own communications
More example sentences
Synonyms

Not that anyone cares but here is the Definition of technique.

Amuris
2016-02-24, 20:16
why do people keep bringing a dictionary when we're discussing jargon?

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 21:11
Because it's the definition used by the series.

And no, if someone has infinite power, the only way to beat that someone is with either also having infinite power, or some really good hax. Feinting wouldn't be worth shit against a being of Great Red's level.

@Osman: Which part of "kinda like" you didn't read? I'm using martial arts as an example/point of comparison.

B214
2016-02-24, 21:24
Sairaorg uses martial arts and he's clearly not a power-type.

Technique type in DxD are mainly those that counter power with skills, Kiba changes his sword accordingly to the situation and opponent(s). Cao Cao analysis his opponent in battle and then trap them using his 7 Orbs etc.

Also Gasper is a Wizard-Support type not Technique-Support type.

Amuris
2016-02-24, 21:34
“The Rating Game classifies players into different particular fighting-types. Power, technique, wizard, support. Out of these, Rias is a Wizard-type. The type that is superior in magic in general, so to speak. Akeno-san is the same. Kiba is a Technique-type. He fights with speed and technique. Xenovia is a Power-type that excels in the area of speed. A player that aims for a one-hit-certain-kill. Asia and Gasper are Support-types. Also, if you classify them with even more detail, Asia is closer to a Wizard-type, while Gasper is closer to a Technique-type. Koneko is a Power-type. And lastly, Ise. You’re also a Power-type. However, you’re also good at being a Support-type as well. With your [Gift] power.”

This is from the beginning of life.4 vol 5. Apparently I mistakenly called Gift as Transfer. When did he use Gift on himself anyway?

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-24, 21:35
Sairaorg doesn't use martial arts. He does like Ise, he punches as hard and as fast as he can, damage taken be damned.

Besides, I was comparing Technique Types to that exact aspect of martial arts: Skill. Fighting accordingly to the situation. Which is why the likes of Vali can't be considered that because his only mode is "nuke until it's dead."

@Amuris: In multiple occasions he transfered Ascalon's aura to his blasts. There was also that one time he did it to his eyes in the pool episode.

B214
2016-02-24, 21:47
Sairaorg doesn't use martial arts. He does like Ise, he punches as hard and as fast as he can, damage taken be damned.

Besides, I was comparing Technique Types to that exact aspect of martial arts: Skill. Fighting accordingly to the situation. Which is why the likes of Vali can't be considered that because his only mode is "nuke until it's dead."

@Amuris: In multiple occasions he transfered Ascalon's aura to his blasts. There was also that one time he did it to his eyes in the pool episode.

Explain this then.
"I have three weapons. Strongly built body, fast legs, martial arts—Here I come!"

Sairaorg-san vanished again! The side!? My opponent has instantly appeared beside me! I shrank back to avoid Sairaorg-san's attack on my body—

And several others have accounted Sairaorg's use of martial arts already.

Hakai
2016-02-24, 21:57
both of them are the embodiment of power. There’s not a single technique, demonic-power, or magic involved. Simply a clash of power and power!

A clash of spirits between the pure power-types where no one can get involved!
12345678910
Screw ten character limit

reinastar
2016-02-25, 02:28
I really hope someone will die that will be so lovely right Onii-Sama and Onee-Sama ^_^~

aw454wtr
2016-02-25, 02:50
This is from the beginning of life.4 vol 5. Apparently I mistakenly called Gift as Transfer. When did he use Gift on himself anyway?

in vol 4 ise used Gift on his eyes to be able to see rais boobs underwater in the school pool

devilo96
2016-02-25, 03:51
Issei coma...
What the hell happened in vol 20?

Chris38
2016-02-25, 04:02
Issei coma...
What the hell happened in vol 20?

Simply put ... it's the side effect / price of using Ophis's power ( DxD mode ) in volume 20.

devilo96
2016-02-25, 06:19
Rizeviem and apophis
let me guess one of them will die in the next volume...and the other one will escape from the battle
and then become the enemy again for the next arc....
and if both of die in the next volume......
then who is the enemy for next arc......and we need more Elmenhilde(hope she join issei house soon)

DragonOsman
2016-02-25, 10:58
Rizevim was killed by Fafnir. I think you meant to say, "Azi Dahaka and Apophis" since the both of the are the new main villains along with Trihexa.

As for "infinite" power, I really think it's just power high enough to be nearly infinite, not that it's literally infinite. That and I think Ophis has infinite stamina and reserve-power, such that she'll never get exhausted. That should be what they mean when they she's "infinite". If she was truly infinite, there'd be two infinite Dragon Gods right now - but that's not the case (it shouldn't be possible to cut infinite power into any halves or quarters or any other fraction, as it'd still be infinite).

Plus, we have what Ddraig said to Rizevim about why the Sacred Gear Canceler didn't completely negate Ise's power in DxD mode: Using my fist’s momentum, I drove a direct punch towards Rizevim! Struck by that single blow, that bastard was flung onto the ground. Despite that, Rizevim immediately stood back up, and felt the part of his face that had been hit. From the looks of it, that blow just now was pretty good; his nasal bridge had been knocked crooked, and he had an incessant nosebleed. After Rizevim forcefully pushed his nose back into place and stopped the bleeding, he glared at me.

“……What the fuck was that just then? Why wasn’t it invalidated!? Did my ability not work!? How is that possible!?”

In response to Rizevim who was in pure disbelief, Ddraig began to speak

[No, son of Lucifer. Your ability did work.]

“Well, why wasn’t it cancelled then!? Even if that power has a share of Ophis’ power, as long as it’s the power of a Sacred Gear, my Sacred Gear Canceller should still be able to disable it, right!?”

[It’s extremely simple. Your ability to cancel is limited. Over here, the power of the Sekiryuutei’s ability is infinite. Since it’s a power which can’t entirely be cancelled — that would make things different, wouldn’t it?]

Ddraig’s remark left Rizevim stunned

See? Is that really so hard to understand? Taking what Ddraig said into consideration, it wouldn't really make sense for Ophis' power to truly be infinite, would it? Because after all, if it were truly infinite, negating even a part of it would've been impossible, but in fact, a part of it actually was still negated. So there you go.

And also, since this a Shounen demographic LN series, I find it hard to believe that Ise, the main hero, wouldn't master Cardinal Crimson Queen and DxD mode eventually. He most likely mastered them by the time of EX in 30 years, but there could be factors involved as to why he couldn't instantly end the war even with all of that power at his disposal. Could be anything. Ishi could've said, "Too haxx, please nerf" and done something to that effect.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-25, 13:34
There's no such thing as being "almost infinite". It's like being perfect. You either are or you aren't. SGC having a limit only proves DxD is stronger than said limit. Not infinite.

Ophis being infinite or not is a completely different can of worms. Ise in DxD wasn't anywhere near the power of what Compelte Ophis was like. He wasn't even as strong as a Heavenly Dragon, and she was 4x that after being weakened and poisoned by Samael.

DragoMuseveni
2016-02-25, 15:14
Infinite do have many interpretations . I must agree with Chichi , also i dont think ophis in her prime is actually infinite , is more like a power that besides the number 2 looks limithless but it isn`t .
Also DxD mode might be 1/4 as powerful as a heavenly dragon , that is what i believe

Gary29
2016-02-25, 16:15
Neither Ophis nor DxD are literally infinite, for clarification. That would be an absurd assumption to make.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-25, 16:39
If Ophis isn't infinite, noone would make such a big deal of it being infinite. They would just say that it's really fucking strong.

DragoMuseveni
2016-02-25, 17:19
If Ophis isn't infinite, noone would make such a big deal of it being infinite. They would just say that it's really fucking strong.

Ophis power is more like the universe . We believe it is infinite but it is not

DragonOsman
2016-02-25, 18:48
In other words, like I said before, it's narrative hyperbole. Complete Ophis' power is so friggin' much that it just seems infinite even though it really isn't. If I were to use a liquid analogy for measuring units of power, I'd say Ophis' power in her complete state would be about a millimeter or so short of being truly infinite.

And just the fact that Ddraig said DxD mode Ise's power was partially negated means it's not infinite. If it was really infinite, even negating a part of it would still keep it at infinite levels. So we didn't see how powerful Ise really is in DxD mode when he fought Rizevim. We'll probably see its true power demonstrated if and when he uses it in Volume 21 against Apophis, since they're apparently going to fight.

Also, again, "infinite" in this case could also mean infinite stamina power-reserves. I think it's both that and nearly infinite power that just seems infinite.

beast 666
2016-02-25, 19:13
Ophis is not infinit! From my point of view, I Would say so but, at the same time it is not longer than her, has earned the title of "Dragón of the infinite" this shows that, She has that title for his power and skills, Even when half of its power was extracted she was affected, and I Wonder to steal an infinite power? The this is the sign that "She no is infinite"

reinastar
2016-02-25, 19:15
eating popcorn while watching this discussion Onii-Sama and Onee-Sama. ^_^~

DragonOsman
2016-02-25, 20:28
@Beast: Yep. You can't cut infinity by value and expect it to not still be infinity. In the first place, because it's infinity, you wouldn't even know how much to cut it by to get it to that value. Ophis is only said to be infinite. It's narrative hyperbole. No, well, actually: she probably does have infinite stamina and maybe even an infinite lifespan, but there's no way she really has infinite power.

If you guys don't think it can be narrative hyperbole - have you read Rave Master? One of the Ten Forms of the Ten Commandments sword that Haru uses, Silfarion, was stated to be able to allow the Rave Master to move at supersonic speeds, but in a clarification note at the end of the same chapter, Hiro Mashima (mangaka who did Rave Master) said that Haru doesn't really move literally at supersonic speeds because if he did, his flesh would get separated from his bones and he'd die. The Rave Master's body is still that of a human, so it can't handle moving at that kind of speed. A pretty good example of narrative hyperbole.

B214
2016-02-25, 21:37
[—Dragon Deification. This is the absolute power that only Ophis can bestow.]

And then there's the talk about borrowing Ophis' power. DxD may just end up being the same as the Gigantic BB. Ophis lends its power to Ise and have him take charge of that power. As to why Ise collapsed after using it.

“…….Strange. Holding back my power, very hard.”

Because Ophis can't control her powers properly, she ended up placing power beyond Ise's capacity.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-26, 09:35
In other words, like I said before, it's narrative hyperbole. Complete Ophis' power is so friggin' much that it just seems infinite even though it really isn't. If I were to use a liquid analogy for measuring units of power, I'd say Ophis' power in her complete state would be about a millimeter or so short of being truly infinite.

And just the fact that Ddraig said DxD mode Ise's power was partially negated means it's not infinite. If it was really infinite, even negating a part of it would still keep it at infinite levels. So we didn't see how powerful Ise really is in DxD mode when he fought Rizevim. We'll probably see its true power demonstrated if and when he uses it in Volume 21 against Apophis, since they're apparently going to fight.

Also, again, "infinite" in this case could also mean infinite stamina power-reserves. I think it's both that and nearly infinite power that just seems infinite. You can't be a milimeter short of being infinite. For the last time, infinity is something you either are, or you aren't. There's no middle ground, no "almost". It doesn't matter if your power level has a bajillion digits, it's not even close to being infinite.

Ophis's whole motif revolves around infinity. It's the Ouroboros, the Infinite born from the Nothingness, etc etc... It's a conceptual being.

I've been saying from the start DxD's mode isn't infinite.

And then there's the talk about borrowing Ophis' power. DxD may just end up being the same as the Gigantic BB. Ophis lends its power to Ise and have him take charge of that power. As to why Ise collapsed after using it.



Because Ophis can't control her powers properly, she ended up placing power beyond Ise's capacity.
Except that Ophis was thousands of miles away from the spot. And according to v21's summary, she's still in a pretty bad condition.

B214
2016-02-26, 10:41
Except that Ophis was thousands of miles away from the spot. And according to v21's summary, she's still in a pretty bad condition.

And Ise got the chant by talking to himself. It was Ophis taught Issei the chant.

Also don't forget, Fafnir can enter the Divine Dividing, it's not beyond Ophis to teleport herself into the Boosted Gear.

DragonOsman
2016-02-26, 11:48
Ophis put her power into Ise's body at the same time as when Great Red gave him its flesh for his new body. That power "charged up" to allow Ise to enter DxD mode. I don't think Ise was really borrowing the power, I think he was just using the power that Ophis had already given him. And it'll now probably have to charge up again for the next use.

@Chichi: If Ophis' power was truly infinite, we'd have two infinite Dragon Gods right now because you can't cut infinity and expect it to not still be infinite.

And if Ophis were truly infinite, DxD mode would also have to be infinite because its power comes from Ophis. Otherwise, Ddraig wouldn't have said what he said about it to Rizevim. But if the power is truly infinite, it shouldn't be possible to partially negate it, and yet Rizevim was able to do it.

But it could also be that, like I've saying, it's not infinite power but infinite stamina so that you don't get exhausted. We don't know for sure whether "infinite" here really means infinite power or if it just means infinite stamina. If it's infinite power, it could also just be narrative hyperbole which isn't necessarily impossible since this is a story.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-26, 12:36
And Ise got the chant by talking to himself. It was Ophis taught Issei the chant.

Also don't forget, Fafnir can enter the Divine Dividing, it's not beyond Ophis to teleport herself into the Boosted Gear.
Except that it was never said that was actually Ophis. Most likely that was the part of her power that went into fabricating Ise's body.

He was able to enter DD while Vali was nearby. And again, Ophis is still badly hurt.
Ophis put her power into Ise's body at the same time as when Great Red gave him its flesh for his new body. That power "charged up" to allow Ise to enter DxD mode. I don't think Ise was really borrowing the power, I think he was just using the power that Ophis had already given him. And it'll now probably have to charge up again for the next use.

@Chichi: If Ophis' power was truly infinite, we'd have two infinite Dragon Gods right now because you can't cut infinity and expect it to not still be infinite.

And if Ophis were truly infinite, DxD mode would also have to be infinite because its power comes from Ophis. Otherwise, Ddraig wouldn't have said what he said about it to Rizevim. But if the power is truly infinite, it shouldn't be possible to partially negate it, and yet Rizevim was able to do it.

But it could also be that, like I've saying, it's not infinite power but infinite stamina so that you don't get exhausted. We don't know for sure whether "infinite" here really means infinite power or if it just means infinite stamina. If it's infinite power, it could also just be narrative hyperbole which isn't necessarily impossible since this is a story.

Samael's poison weakened/crippled her and she stopped being infinite. That's why in v11 Azazel said she wasn't infinite anymore after the attack.

If her trait was infinite stamina, DxD mode wouldn't have a time limit since it'd grant Ise a shitton of stamina.

DragonOsman
2016-02-26, 15:06
Whatever "infinite" means here, Ise either wasn't able to completely bring out and/or wasn't able to fully handle it correctly. And we also have what Ddraig said to Rizevim in the quote I posted from Volume 20. Ddraig clearly said that while Rizevim's ability did work, because Ophis is infinite, it couldn't be negated completely. Tell me honestly: Do you really think Ddraig would say that if Ophis was truly infinite? After all, it should be impossible to just "partially negate" infinity. And Ddraig even said that the ability of the Sekiryuutei is infinite. If you don't believe me, you could just go and reread that part. I'll post just that part here, too:
[It’s extremely simple. Your ability to cancel is limited. Over here, the power of the Sekiryuutei’s ability is infinite. Since it’s a power which can’t entirely be cancelled — that would make things different, wouldn’t it?]

Ddraig said that since the Sekiryuutei's ability at the time was infinite, Rizevim couldn't cancel it completely. Now what does that tell you?

beast 666
2016-02-26, 19:05
Good points of view @Osman , If the power of ophis, and the DXD mode are not infinite, then because Rizevim could not be able to cancel with your sacred gear canceller, the power of issei in DXD mode ?. This for me is very strange that this shows that some or otherwise the power of issei (in DXD mode ) and ophis are an infinite power although ophis does not show it as such and this dislike not knowing it since it is somewhat stable to not know , Perhaps Ophis She had infinity power when it was complete?

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-27, 06:49
Whatever "infinite" means here, Ise either wasn't able to completely bring out and/or wasn't able to fully handle it correctly. And we also have what Ddraig said to Rizevim in the quote I posted from Volume 20. Ddraig clearly said that while Rizevim's ability did work, because Ophis is infinite, it couldn't be negated completely. Tell me honestly: Do you really think Ddraig would say that if Ophis was truly infinite? After all, it should be impossible to just "partially negate" infinity. And Ddraig even said that the ability of the Sekiryuutei is infinite. If you don't believe me, you could just go and reread that part. I'll post just that part here, too:


Ddraig said that since the Sekiryuutei's ability at the time was infinite, Rizevim couldn't cancel it completely. Now what does that tell you?

I know what Ddraig said. I'm saying he done fucked up about DxD Mode. Ise wasn't even near 1/4 of the strenght of a crippled Ophis, saying that this also applies to her while complete is a huge leap of logic.

DragonOsman
2016-02-27, 09:02
Why would he f*ck up about about something he's in direct contact with and should know about and understand more than anybody else? If he says that the Sekiryuutei's power is infinite in DxD mode (or whatever "infinite" actually means in the context of this series), then I'll buy it since it's him saying it and not anyone else. The reason it didn't seem that strong was because part of it was cancelled by Rizevim's ability. If Ise's opponent had been anyone other than Rizevim or Diehauser, we would've seen just how powerful it really is. We still haven't seen it at 100% yet because of Rizevim's ability.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-27, 11:05
Except that you can't cancel part of infinite. Therefore DxD Mode isn't infinite.

There aren't multiple meanings to infinite. It's like saying there are multiple meanings to perfection.

Gary29
2016-02-27, 11:27
Except that you can't cancel part of infinite. Therefore DxD Mode isn't infinite.

There aren't multiple meanings to infinite. It's like saying there are multiple meanings to perfection.

...But there are. You can be subjectively perfect, which in itself opens up a myriad of possible definitions of "perfection" as vast as the human race itself. Likewise, infinity can refer to a lifespan, stamina/power reserves, or power itself. Edit: Also narrative hyperbole, of course.

What even is this discussion...? :heh: It's clear Chichi's not gonna change his mind, ever.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-27, 11:39
Uh, no, perfection implies no flaws whatsoever. If someone can see a flaw, it's not perfect.

Any half-assed God is immortal, and when Samael made Ophis to cease being infinite, he clearly made her weaker.

B214
2016-02-27, 12:53
Well even if DxD is supposedly infinite, the user isn't infinite. Just because one have a sword that can supposing cut a diamond to half doesn't automatically means the wielder can cut it to half for sure. There'll definitely be factors affecting it, like the strength of the person cutting, the way he's cutting it etc.

DragonOsman
2016-02-27, 13:05
As I've been saying, it's still entirely possible that it's narrative hyperbole. And Gary said it just now, too. And again, Ddraig said that Sekiryuutei's power in DxD mode is infinite. I'll take his word for it over yours any day because it's Ddraig's own friggin' power with Ophis' trait of "Infinite" added to it for goodness' sake.

Also, right now it really might not seem to be all that powerful, but that's only because of the Sacred Gear Canceler. We still haven't seen how powerful DxD mode Ise actually is. That and Ise's body was already screaming in pain just from being in that form and from having Ophis' power flowing through his body. It's clearly too much power for him to handle. Which would imply that he'll need really, really hard training to be able to master this form. He won't be able to use it well until then.

Proof of above: —Ise, this state can only be maintained for a very short amount of time.

I see, I only had a very brief amount of time. That could be a few seconds, tens of seconds, or even a few minutes. Regardless of that, it wasn’t long. —That’s because my body was already screaming out. There was a strange power circulating around inside my body. It felt as though my body would be torn apart if I moved even just a little bit.

And after using this power, he coughed up blood and collapsed, and according to Ishibumi, he was feeling pain worse than death as the price for using the power. Ddraig also said something along those lines; […Partner. —This is the price of power. Ophis’ power…is really too…]

But anyway, let's drop this now; arguing with Chichi is like arguing with a brick wall.

Edit: One post late.
@B214: Yeah, there's that too. Like I said, Ise still can't handle having Ophis' power flowing through his body yet. It's still basically too much power for him, and he needs more training to be able to use it.

But yeah, again, I won't talk about this anymore because Chichi is a brick wall.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-27, 13:19
It's not my words. It's the concept of infinity. It's how infinity works.

So now Ise not being able to handle a power immediately makes it infinite? Please, He was exhausted just from Triaina in v9. Longinus Smasher made him weaker for a month. JD ate up 99% of his life-span.

Besides, I love how you are saying Ophis isn't infinite, but says Ddraig is correct in saying DxD mode is. That's priceless.

Hakai
2016-02-27, 13:27
This discussion
http://i.imgsafe.org/3ecae24.gif

When can we expect the cover to be out?

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-27, 13:33
Mid-March I think. Normally it gets revealed one week before release (March 21st in this case, I think?), right?

Hakai
2016-02-27, 13:56
I guess we're getting Either Le Fay or Kuroka, maybe both.

But what would be nice is Vali with Fenrir, it'd look so majestic but this is just wishful thinking

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-27, 14:43
I'd prefer Vali and Ise. Ise didn't get the cover to his own volume (though I still loved it) so I think he deserves it. Plus Fenrir is a wolf. Not exactly what I'd call illustration worthy, since wolves look mostly the same.

DragonOsman
2016-02-27, 15:25
Chichi, please don't put words in our mouths. I'm not saying that DxD mode is infinite and Ophis isn't, I'm saying that "infinite" in this series' context might in and of itself just be narrative hyperbole and that whatever it actually means in the context of this series is the kind of "infinite" that Ophis and DxD mode are. Is that so hard to understand?

And I know that all of his other modes were hard to handle at first too, and that he hasn't even mastered Triaina and Cardinal Crimson Queen yet either. But even compared to those modes, feeling Ophis' power flowing through his body was even more difficult for him to handle. That's what the events of Volume 20 told me.

Anyway, about the cover, I think you're right about Ise and Vali being on it. It'd also be good for Vali and someone else from his team being on it, too, though.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-27, 15:51
Except that there aren't any "kind of" infinite. Either it is infinite or it's not. By your logic, Vali can move at a "kind of" lightspeed then.

beast 666
2016-02-27, 16:29
@Chichi:The meaning of "infinity", is to misinterpreted since you say as "perfection" is impassible to achive what is not true?, since issei is unstable since you body it is very difficult to bear power of that caliber right?, Only is a way of saying that this power is in some way infinite although perhaps not so certain?, So that no mistake is meaning, Changing the subject, regarding the cover of the v21, Should already have emerged since Only 23 days for resale, So it rare to not come out yet such time, Miyama Zero this busy, Already as many know the also an ilustrador de Oda Nobuna and DxD.

Gary29
2016-02-27, 16:32
Above all I want Kuroka + Le Fay for the cover. Or just one of those would make me happy.

DragonOsman
2016-02-27, 16:39
Yeah, since it's Vali's Volume and Ishi mostly has girls appear on the covers anyway, it'd be great to see a girl from the Vali Team appear on the appear. It'd also make sense that way. But it'd also be good actually have Vali on the cover. Vali and Ise, or maybe Vali and a girl from the Vali Team.

And jeez, seriously . . . why is it so hard for a certain someone to understand the concept of narrative hyperbole? I'm done with that discussion now. :eyespin:

Amuris
2016-02-27, 17:49
Kinda want to correct two things here.

any variable can have a positive, negative, or neutral affect in a situation. To be perfect, something would have to have all available positive variables. However, in another context, those variable would have a negative affect. Therefore, there is as many definitions of perfect as there are arrangements of variables.

DxD likes math. You should go by the mathematical definition of infinity and how it's used in calculus and up. Most things make more sense if you view it from that perspective.

Boost is base*2^n and Divide is base/(2^n)

+infinity occurs when an equation with positive growth, like Boost's, is allowed to increase n without limit. At the same time, zero is approached by equations with a faster growing denominator, like Divide's.

In terms of calculus, infinity is only a number when considered in terms of the continuous growth of n. If stopped and examined in an specific instance, the equation has a non-infinity value.

(I'm not joining back in. I'm still of the position that the argument is pointless and that Diablous Dragon and Ophis should still be matchable other things like Great Reds Zero aura or whatever. I'm just throwing more swords, pitchforks, and nets, etc into the arena.)

beast 666
2016-02-27, 18:26
good points of view, my ideal front would be with Ophis and Vali serious something very special and good seeing, @Osman: I if I know the meaning of narrative hyperbole have always read some books (nothing to do with the anime) where the author makes many references to the unattainable, only amplified the veracity is this is exaggerated or not easy to understand its meaning as in the following example from the book "Time and space"" : "the world is difficult to understand is a well of darkness, without course to imagining being the human being to be seen, before the small trip in space and time with just a blink of an eye, the mind is capsized " in this case this varies with the meaning infinite

twistedymond
2016-02-28, 06:20
I've been following this argument for a bit and after review of the text it seems that "infinite" is an attribute of the power that ise is using kind of like saying "power of destruction " for Rias, what does that mean really well the demonic power she puts out has a special attribute that destroys. The power Ise is using has the attribute of "infinite" what does that mean well it seems to mean that the attack is harder to stop or cancel maybe impossible to cancel. Does it mean power output is infinite, no because that would destroy the universe it would create a big bang or something equally destructive so its just some cool attribute ishi gave the power at this time. I am not going into weather or not oribos was infinite in the beginning or anything like that just talking about the power ise channeled

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-28, 10:42
Uh, no. Something perfect is something that has no flaws whatsoever, doesn't matter what variable you put in. Otherwise it's imperfect since it's flawed in some way.

Yeah, I'm sure the Infinite born from Nothingness has everything to do with math.

@OSman: If it's narrative hyperbole, than it's not infinite.

babbo3d
2016-02-28, 11:05
I'm so anxious, since the amount of death flags is originally large and they seem to be forming a death flag formation increasing the death flag energy all pointing to ophis, combine with it being the end arc, i got a bad feeling..... if something happens to her i will rage so hard, if you need to kill someone kill ise again i'm sure he can revive with some bs method.

DragonOsman
2016-02-28, 11:05
@Chichi: [Compile error alert: Cannot determine what is meant by "than" in this context. Please review definition of word.]

Anyway, do you really think the characters in the series know that what they're saying is being used by their author as narrative hyperbole? All they know is that they're being made to say that something is the way it is. They don't need to know or care about specifics. Just like how Silfarion is "said" to be able to let Haru move at supersonic speeds, but the author clarified in a note at the end of the chapter that it's not really supersonic speed because of it was, Haru's body wouldn't be able to handle it and would therefore just collapse. To the characters in the series, it's supersonic speed and also not narrative hyperbole, but to us the readers, it is. Same thing here.

It's just a story. Stories have narrative hyperbole as a plot device and the characters in the story aren't aware of it.

And "infinite" could also have a different meaning here than we think. I just thought of this:
Maybe, rather than it just being purely narrative hyperbole, being "infinite" in the series' context just means that that the power regenerates and comes back to full power infinitely. The power itself isn't what's infinite, but the number of times it regenerates is. So when Rizevim tried to cancel it, his ability couldn't keep up with Ise's infinitely regenerating power and so its limit as to what it can cancel was exceeded. Basically, what some people said about Ophis just having infinite reserves was probably correct.

It's infinite reserves (not infinite stamina, just infinite reserves of power where it comes coming back and Rizevim's Sacred Gear Canceler can't keep up), and the reason there's a time limit is because the power is still too huge to handle right now and it also feels strange to Ise. His body was also screaming in pain already just from being in DxD mode. Ophis' power isn't of infinite quantity but just regenerates infinitely, and its attribute is "infinity". The form's proper name is "Dragon Infinity Drive" and the voice from the gems also says "D-Infinite-D" instead of "Boost," plus the symbol for "infinity" also appears on the gems.

Edit: One post late.
@Babbo3d: I don't think the death-flag will really mean anything.
Volume 21 isn't part of the Final Arc, it's still part of the same arc that Volume 20 is in.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-28, 11:23
I meant "then". Typo. Sue me.

No idea what that Silfarion stuff is about. If it's narrative hyperbole, than it's not true. Do you think Vali can move at lightspeed by the context of the series? Of course he can't.

Ise's power regenerating wouldn't have anything to do with it not being cancelled. SGC doesn't deplete the power, it just blocks it. Ise's power then was above the limit. Not infinite, but above the limit for sure.

So Ophis is just like the Phoenix Clan? Because that's literally how they work.

I fail to see how that is anything more than speculation, just like my speculation.

DragonOsman
2016-02-28, 11:39
Silfarion is one of the forms of the Ten Commandments sword the Rave Master uses, and it's said to be able to allow him to move at supersonic speed.

And it can still be narrative hyperbole. You just don't fully understand the concept. And I also fail to see how Ddraig could possibly be wrong about his own power becoming infinite (or whatever the term means in HS DxD). He was the one who said that the Sekiryuutei's power is infinite, and I don't think he's wrong. Plus, it's in the LN, so it's your problem if you don't want to believe it.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-28, 11:51
Thanks for clarifying. But if the author himself admits it's not supersonic, then it's not supersonic.

I know what narrative hyperbole is. Can it be? Yes, but we never saw a Full Powered Ophis fight, so it can't be said as far as she's concerned.

Ise, on the other hand, was fighting all-out, and he clearly didn't have infinite power. It was also said multiple times Vali moves at lightspeed, but I don't see anyone buying that. So yes, in his case, it is clearly an hyperbole.

DragonOsman
2016-02-28, 12:57
We didn't see Ise's full power in DxD mode, though. It's actually much more powerful than it was shown to be here. And I still think Ophis and DxD mode being called infinite is narrative hyperbole. Ddraig also said that the Sekiryuutei's power in DxD mode is infinite, and I fail to see how he could possibly be wrong about his own power considering the fact that he's the Sekiryuutei himself.

And we'll probably never see Ophis' true power being shown unless she can fully recover all of her power before this series ends. If she can do it without having merge with Lilith, I'd love that, and would also like to see her true power being shown in the story.

If that happens, and we can get a clear comparison between DxD mode Ise's full power and Ophis' full power, we'll be able to see for sure if it's all a narrative hyperbole or not.

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-28, 13:17
Please, tell me where was it said it's more powerful than it was shown.

If it's narrative hyperbole, than that alone makes Ddraig wrong because it would mean it's not infinite. I already agree DxD Mode's probably narrative hyperbole, I never believed it to be infinite actually. Complete Ophis on the other hand,can't be said snce we don't know anything about her beside being equal to Great Red and Trihexa.

Amuris
2016-02-28, 14:04
Uh, no. Something perfect is something that has no flaws whatsoever, doesn't matter what variable you put in. Otherwise it's imperfect since it's flawed in some way.

Yeah, I'm sure the Infinite born from Nothingness has everything to do with math.


perfect is contextual. What makes something flawed in a particular circumstance would make it perfect for another. Therefore, it cannot be perfect at all times for any and everything. This is because circumstances have contradictory values. There is no such thing as flawless due to the existence of contradicting values/priorities.

As for the math, you wrote that off pretty quick considering the author made it the bases of the MC's power. What lead you to believe math should be dismissed?

DragonOsman
2016-02-28, 14:15
@Chichi: It's narrative hyperbole to us as readers, not to the characters themselves. To the characters, it really is infinite. That's why what Ddraig said, to the context of the series and for the sake of continuity, isn't wrong. And besides, again, it's Ddraig's own power and he should know more about it than anyone else.

Edit: Also, just who do you think Ise's power in DxD mode originates from in the first place? Ddraig also said that DxD mode's power is the absolute power that only Ophis can bestow. You can't just go and say that just for one of them "infinite" is narrative hyperbole and that for the other one it isn't.

Anyway, I think we should just change the topic now because this really isn't getting anywhere.

beast 666
2016-02-28, 17:43
For sure the meaning of infinity is unknown since it is a narrative hyperbole, this has no meaning in common, as have already said before issei did not show its true power with DXD mode since its body is unstable, has a limit so this support this large amount of power over collateral, if only issei support this we could see if realmete is infinite or is not , Although if you ask me if it is infinite as say it Draig, Notably what you say is said in the Ex issei was Sekiryuutei Carmesi of the infinite,right ? If it were not for that it would be called so, also is worth saying that when it appeared the issei from the future in the Ex as both Loki and Ruma Idra They are afraid of their power right....., so perhaps the had because knew that his power not had limits certain ?, or will only be another narrative hyperbole or a consciousness

Chichiryuushintei
2016-02-28, 18:08
@Chichi: It's narrative hyperbole to us as readers, not to the characters themselves. To the characters, it really is infinite. That's why what Ddraig said, to the context of the series and for the sake of continuity, isn't wrong. And besides, again, it's Ddraig's own power and he should know more about it than anyone else.

Edit: Also, just who do you think Ise's power in DxD mode originates from in the first place? Ddraig also said that DxD mode's power is the absolute power that only Ophis can bestow. You can't just go and say that just for one of them "infinite" is narrative hyperbole and that for the other one it isn't.

Anyway, I think we should just change the topic now because this really isn't getting anywhere.

Infinity isn't subjective. It either is or isn't. For the millionth time.

Ise's power came from a severily weakened Ophis that wasn't infinite anymore. Using that to compare to a Complete and fullpowered Ophis is nonsensical.

DragonOsman
2016-02-28, 19:27
The power could've been building up inside Ise, charging up so it could be used. And for all we know, the Boosted Gear's Boost ability could also have enhanced it. We don't know for sure.

And again, why are we even still talking about this? It's clear that it's not getting us anywhere.