View Full Version : Re:Zero - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll
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Applehell
2016-07-23, 23:26
-wwGKyFYk70
Stark700
2016-07-24, 11:36
Got legit chills from this week's episode especially the last 5 minutes of that Emilia scene...just wow.
I get the feeling that people have the wrong expectations for this episode considering all the fake spoilers that floated around this arc. It was still a great episode though.
^That's mostly because the people who eat the fake spoilers are new to the point they lurk on 4chan and even reddit for information, guaranteed fake spoilers.
I missed the stream so time to wait for the subs to comes out.
Good episode. Again we get to see a lot of despair here. :heh: There are many new things here that need to be elaborated on. Why didn't those hands grab Subaru's heart like always? Why does Emilia die instead? Betty acted a bit strange, just how much does she actually know? Why did the White Whale let Subaru live? Mist shrouds things in mystery so I'm certain the erasure of Rem's existance along with some others are probably the Whale's ability. I wonder if there is a counter to that. Judging from that one scene in the OP sequence Subaru will definitely do better at recruiting at least 1 faction to help him take care of the White Whale in the next loop so I'm looking forward to that. This episode packs a lot of food for thought, I must say.
Crunchyroll subs are up. It was good as always. The whale's powers are plenty terrifying, Subaru should have enough clues to figure out what its power is by now but the poor guy should take a 5 minute break to process the information. He definitely is pressured for time but taking some time to decide what plan C (D? E?) is going to be would work wonders.. Heck, I really thought he would go and speak with Beatrice before going with Emilia, the previous arc should have shown him that the loli is a trove of inforrmation. Howeer given that the poor guy can't even articulate a coherent explanation of what's going on to Emilia I guess that's asking for much (just lie. Say that you got intel from Crusch that cultists were going to attack this location. Evacuate the villagers ASAP or have everyone turtle up in the mansion.)
And once again I just had to skip through Subaru's meeting with Emilia right through the end. Curse you vicarious embarrassment.
What took Pack so long to act?
Good episode. Again we get to see a lot of despair here. :heh: There are many new things here that need to be elaborated on. Why didn't those hands grab Subaru's heart like always? Why does Emilia die instead? Betty acted a bit strange, just how much does she actually know? Why did the White Whale let Subaru live? Mist shrouds things in mystery so I'm certain the erasure of Rem's existance along with some others are probably the Whale's ability. I wonder if there is a counter to that. Judging from that one scene in the OP sequence Subaru will definitely do better at recruiting at least 1 faction to help him take care of the White Whale in the next loop so I'm looking forward to that. This episode packs a lot of food for thought, I must say.
Because it's Emilia he was talking to. So... lets show him that his life is not something he should worry about, no?
It's pretty obvious that it's Satella's way of saying "no is a no"
He has to be manually summoned outside of his 9-5pm working hours. He probably came on his own power after he noticed the contract stone had been broken.
So many more things to muddy the waters. The hands from Subaru's Return by Death ability killing Emilia conflicts with her being the witch if the ability is truly from her. But then again, who knows, the hands being the same as Betelgeuse's makes me wonder if it's just a high ranking Witch Cult ability... which raises other speculation since one of the first things Betelgeuse asked Subaru was if he was Pride... also uh oh, Puck isn't in kawaii mode anymore... and Subaru is indirectly responsible for her death this time...
Also nghhhhh why must you be so amazing Rem...
Also nghhhhh why must you be so amazing Rem...
...Rem who?
I think this is now drifting uncomfortable close to being torture porn. Time to start acting less on impulse and more on thought or this is going to become unlikeably ugly.
BTW: instead of explaining his motivations as being from return from death, why not claim just to have visions of future events?
I think this is now drifting uncomfortable close to being torture porn. Time to start acting less on impulse and more on thought or this is going to become unlikeably ugly.
BTW: instead of explaining his motivations as being from return from death, why not claim just to have visions of future events?
That would make sense if Subaru had the time to think everything through clearly. But he doesn't. It's like you said, he's acting on impulse. He's the most mentally and psychologically messed up of all the arcs yet and when you combine that with him bouncing between utter despair and rage fueled revenge, he can't think clearly at all. I think his next death should be enough to push him over the edge though.
Because it's Emilia he was talking to. So... lets show him that his life is not something he should worry about, no?
It's pretty obvious that it's Satella's way of saying "no is a no"
That's a Yandere for you. I mean, look at the way her hands were caressing him. It was like she was saying, "Subaru, why do you do make me do this to you?"
Anyway, it looks like the Unseen Hand is supposed to be invisible (which should be obvious when I think about the name), and apparently Rem was ret-goned by Moby Dick.
Proto this is your fault I'll have you know:
http://i.imgur.com/fUIxUvq.jpg
Next episode is titled "From Zero". Get hyped.
That was the chapter that turned normal novel readers into raving fans who won't shut the hell up. :heh:
BladeMancer
2016-07-24, 14:02
Video quality is atrocious, what the hell. I couldn't even see the white whale.
Key Board
2016-07-24, 14:04
how the heck are you going to kill a Crimson Denizen without a Flame Haze?
Video quality is atrocious, what the hell. I couldn't even see the white whale.
HQ isn't out yet and yeah, it was super bad quality :uhoh:
-------------
About episode 17, holy shit this was amazing. Subaru literally is not even close to what he was at the beginning of the series, we can see how all of the things that happened to him and the people close to him has actual impact, there is development and progression on Subaru as a character and this is something you wont see pretty often.
The white whale and Betelgeuse, god this is painful, how Subaru is gonna get away from this without anyone by his side and especially considering Emilia can't help him. At least we saw Puck being badass this episode and finally became part of this fight but I guess is only for now since Subaru needs to die again to reset and get Rem back.. right...RIGHT?
Who is Rem? this literally killed me.
moridin84
2016-07-24, 14:23
- That's surprising, I thought he'd be killed by the whale but he got all the way to the manision
- Rem constantly sacrificing herself for Subaru is getting old. Rather than being selfless, I'm starting to see it as something she's doing for her own sense of self-satisfaction.
- It's going to be pretty awkward between Subaru and Otto next they meet.
- I was shocked at how calm Ram was, initially. Then it makes sense. It's really cruel.
- I actually took my headphones off when Subaru kept telling Emilia to just do as she said. That was pretty unpleasant.
- The scene Subaru/Emilia did seem like a repeat of the previous one but that isn't the case. "Why are you crying and seem to be in such pain" as Emilia said
- Oh yeah, Roswaal isn't in the mansion, I was thinking he'd at least confront Subaru
- It seems like Subaru did actually become friends with Beatrice. On the other hand, she doesn't care about Emila in any way whatsoever. It makes sense but it was kind of jarring.
- Killing Emilia instead of killing Subaru is probably just a way to stop Subaru from using it to commit suicide. The show seems to be entirely against the "easy route" of Subaru killing himself when things don't go his way
- Subaru still isn't dead
I was thinking that each of Subaru's deaths was getting worse and worse but this time won't be too bad. He's probably just going to be killed by Puck. Not good but certainly better than being tortured.
If the next episode title is "From Zero" then I suppose this is where Subaru is going to start turning things around. Which will certainly be nice. No idea what exactly he's going to do that, though.
And just to cheer myself up. From a happier episode...
http://i.imgur.com/VcAVqFr.jpg
HayashiTakara
2016-07-24, 14:24
I swear to god, every episode creates more questions than it answers.
Did anyone think he was in an illusion brought about by the White Whale? I mean, how could EVERYONE forget about Rem aside from Subaru?
If the next episode title is "From Zero" then I suppose this is where Subaru is going to start turning things around. Which will certainly be nice. No idea what exactly he's going to do that, though.
GOD, I hope so =01. Seeing him anxiously/furiously prattle about other people being useless or uncooperative even though he has zero capabilities himself is starting to get REALLY annoying =02. Usually it doesn't go for too long before he starts getting a handle on the situation, so it hasn't been a bother, but seeing it week after week after week, its kinda getting on my nerves.
HayashiTakara
2016-07-24, 14:34
Did anyone think he was in an illusion brought about by the White Whale? I mean, how could EVERYONE forget about Rem aside from Subaru?
GOD, I hope so =01. Seeing him anxiously/furiously prattle about other people being useless or uncooperative even though he has zero capabilities himself is starting to get REALLY annoying =02. Usually it doesn't go for too long before he starts getting a handle on the situation, so it hasn't been a bother, but seeing it week after week after week, its kinda getting on my nerves.
From my understanding the white whale erases all memory of person it consumes. Since it consumed Rem everyone forgets who she is.
Applehell
2016-07-24, 14:35
Wow to lose the one you love and the one loves you in one day regardless of what you did must beyond horrible. In someways far worse than ep 15 due how much more personal it is for Subaru.
Oh and I think it should be pretty obivious Otto was killed by Witch Cult member, if look closely at the swords. Going on that train of thought if the White Whale erases victims how is previous gen's Sword Saint still remembered? Maybe they have records his or her name?
moridin84
2016-07-24, 14:41
From my understanding the white whale erases all memory of person it consumes. Since it consumed Rem everyone forgets who she is.
Did Subaru go into Rem's room and find it unoccupied though?
It doesn't just erase memories. It erases traces of that person ever existing, period.
Notice Rem's room didn't look like it was ever used by her?
Did Subaru go into Rem's room and find it unoccupied though?
Did you not watch the episode?
It's pretty obvious that everyone who die by the White Whale get forgotten, as was proven already in the previous episode when one of the riders disappeared and Otto immediately commented that no one was riding there to begin with.
Dunno how White Whale can make everything related to that person disappear as well like items and whatnot but lets call it plot I suppose.
To that end the Sword Saint should not be remembered even if there were records of him because those records should not exist if he was consumed by White Whale. But perhaps that is the key? The person must be '' eaten '' by the whale? Whereas if the Sword Saint just got killed in action but his body was left behind he was thus not forgotten.
(Who is this Sword Saint anyway? When Otto mentioned him it seemed like Subaru knew who they were talking about but how could he? I don't think it's been ever mentioned before?)
Oh and I think it should be pretty obivious Otto was killed by Witch Cult member, if look closely at the swords. Going on that train of thought if the White Whale erases victims how is previous gen's Sword Saint still remembered? Maybe they have records his or her name?
Personally, I thought it was ironic. He pushed Subaru to save himself and then gets killed off by the Witch's Cult. As for the Sword Saint, either Moby Dick didn't eat him or someone else close by did the guy in. Remember, the Witch's Cult are close enough that Otto got ganked.
Oh and I think it should be pretty obivious Otto was killed by Witch Cult member, if look closely at the swords. Going on that train of thought if the White Whale erases victims how is previous gen's Sword Saint still remembered? Maybe they have records his or her name?
Or maybe he didnt get killed by the whale.
Good episode, the despair levels were off the chart!
zero7090
2016-07-24, 14:58
So main char continue to go full retard.
I keep hoping he would be any smarter than the previous arc but nope. He goes around crying about impossible thing in a magical world which his power is revive after dying. He don't even fcking try to ask "what is the white whale and its power" like in ep 9. Heck in that ep he knew how to talk to Ram-Rem into believing him without saying anything.
BladeMancer
2016-07-24, 15:03
So main char continue to go full retard.
I keep hoping he would be any smarter than the previous arc but nope. He goes around crying about impossible thing in a magical world which his power is revive after dying. He don't even fcking try to ask "what is the white whale and its power" like in ep 9. Heck in that ep he knew how to talk to Ram-Rem into believing him without saying anything.
Seriously? Read Aohiges post, no one knows about the white whales power because all traces of that person existing is gone when it's eaten so they don't know what happens to the person whose eaten.
Apache Thunder
2016-07-24, 15:16
The real question is....Why doesn't Suburu end up forgetting the people the whale consumed like everyone else?
Maybe the whale knew of his ability somehow and didn't eat him. The whole erasing him from time could have conflicted with his return by death ability and create a paradox maybe? So the whale decided it was bad idea to try and consume him. That or he gets energy from eating someone's "existance" and somehow the whale sensed he could not erase Suburu's existence because of his return by death ability, so he left him be. (Whale probably didn't know he had return by death specifically, only that eating him would not have benefited him at all. He doesn't necessarily have to know why. :P )
BladeMancer
2016-07-24, 15:17
The real question is....Why doesn't Suburu end up forgetting the people the whale consumed like everyone else?
I don't want to spoil here. If you want I can PM you.
DemonneoPT
2016-07-24, 15:22
Wow to lose the one you love and the one loves you in one day regardless of what you did must beyond horrible. In someways far worse than ep 15 due how much more personal it is for Subaru.
Indeed! The frustration level Subaru must be suffering is probably over 9000! Literally, Emilia seems to have died because he was telling her the truth about what he can do...lol... i mean, that is just messed up. I guess the chances of Emilia being the witch dropped a few points because of that. Plus the cult is also trying to kill her. I believe Emilia is an existance that somehow can destroy the cult/Witch and her being so similar in appearance to Satella is probably part of the answer. Something to do with her origin. I'm very curious about this but i doubt it will get explored in this arc. Maybe in the season 2 if White Fox doesn't decide to ruin the anime with an original ending like they did with Akame Ga Kill. That would be a low blow after such a great work so far :heh:
Good episode. Again we get to see a lot of despair here. :heh: There are many new things here that need to be elaborated on. Why didn't those hands grab Subaru's heart like always? Why does Emilia die instead? Betty acted a bit strange, just how much does she actually know? Why did the White Whale let Subaru live? Mist shrouds things in mystery so I'm certain the erasure of Rem's existance along with some others are probably the Whale's ability. I wonder if there is a counter to that. Judging from that one scene in the OP sequence Subaru will definitely do better at recruiting at least 1 faction to help him take care of the White Whale in the next loop so I'm looking forward to that. This episode packs a lot of food for thought, I must say.
I was asking myself the same. This arc sure knows how to build an interesting mystery about what the hell is happening. The hype is real for the next episode. It wil probably be at the same level or even better compared to episode 15! Plus, can't wait to see Puck destroying those cultist bastards. Unseen that Betelgeuse!!
BladeMancer
2016-07-24, 15:22
Also this just in
People are calling this the new "Boku dake" because of Rem taking the spotlight
:heh: :heh: :heh:
http://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Applejacked+_92b94a7633599da9a3c60863e7635e04.gif
Did you not watch the episode?
To that end the Sword Saint should not be remembered even if there were records of him because those records should not exist if he was consumed by White Whale. But perhaps that is the key? The person must be '' eaten '' by the whale? Whereas if the Sword Saint just got killed in action but his body was left behind he was thus not forgotten.
(Who is this Sword Saint anyway? When Otto mentioned him it seemed like Subaru knew who they were talking about but how could he? I don't think it's been ever mentioned before?)
Because Subaru knows the current Sword Saint, Reinhardt, and can't imagine someone like him being defeated by anything ever.
The previous Sword Saint was killed by the whale. Or so it is told.
As for you not knowing the phrase... crunchyroll poorly chose the translation of "Master Swordsman" instead of Sword Saint, despite the fact the word being a normal existing title in our world.
Klashikari
2016-07-24, 15:24
(Who is this Sword Saint anyway? When Otto mentioned him it seemed like Subaru knew who they were talking about but how could he? I don't think it's been ever mentioned before?)
We can assume that since Reinhard got the title of Sword Saint, Subaru got a rough idea of what kind of powers/skills a knight would have with that kind of title.
Apache Thunder
2016-07-24, 15:25
Also, Subaru couldn't see the hands from the crazy villain guy who's name I will never be able to spell correctly to even attempt in the episode where he kills Rem. But now he can see the hands...
So he has a lingering ability from accidentally killing Emilia after the what I assume to be the Witches "unseen" hands coming out and seemingly killing Emilia. Previous "attempts" of him trying to tell others of his ability weren't as forceful, so the Witch didn't manifest quite as dramatically as she did this time.
This further shrouds the Witch's intent as well since if Emilia was important to the Witch in some way, she wouldn't have killed Emilia. But maybe the Witch can't kill Subaru the same way the other characters can (perhaps if the Witch kills him, it's permanent and she still needs him alive). So instead she kills Emilia knowing it will force Saburu to kill himself to reset things again.
I would bet though if the Witch killed him instead, it would have been permanent and the the Witch must have known by know that the cult was coming to kill Emilia.
That's my rough idea on the situation as I believe it to be thus far.
Wandering Soul
2016-07-24, 15:29
Good episode. Again we get to see a lot of despair here. :heh: There are many new things here that need to be elaborated on. Why didn't those hands grab Subaru's heart like always? .
This time Subaru seemed to make it abundantly clear that the would tell Emilia the truth no matter. In that case, I figured that the hands realized there was no point in threatening him and decided to go after the person he was talking to, which just so happens to also be the girl that he loves to show that they will not allow him to tell anyone about his ability and get away it.
Applehell
2016-07-24, 15:33
To that end the Sword Saint should not be remembered even if there were records of him because those records should not exist if he was consumed by White Whale. But perhaps that is the key? The person must be '' eaten '' by the whale? Whereas if the Sword Saint just got killed in action but his body was left behind he was thus not forgotten.
I don't think that is necessarily the case. White Whale's mist may not work on everything related beyond the indivdual itself (their items, writings and such) and the memories ofpeople knew the victims. But if say a letter or autobiography was written about the victium by another person and wasn't erased because of that then that would be loophole. Of course the person who wrote to the victuim wouldn't remember. He/she would just have this unfamiliar name there.
With that said Tong does make a good point that last gen'd Sword Saint might have been killed by something else.
It's the first OP we've gotten in a while! Even with the OP they still manage to get the pacing just right and slowly draw out Subaru's suffering. The whole entire white whale scene was just as informative as it was horrifying. We learn from Otto that it is a legendary beast that was able to killed the first swordsman, although I'm not sure how significant of a person he/she was. But more importantly, we learn that the white whale is a mabeast and similar to the previous mabeasts it reacts very strongly to the scent of the Witch. Of course, Subaru being the idiot he was reveals this to Otto and is subsequently sacrificed by the merchant in a fit of panic, hysteria, and fear.
Subaru wasn't killed by the white whale for whatever reason and even manages to reach Roswaal's domain before the Witch's Cult attacks it. However, even after waking up in the mansion he is still as unhinged and incoherent as before. He rambles and raves to Emilia about an impending danger, before ultimately attacking Emilia verbally about her failures. At this point he literally cannot pull himself together to string a coherent sentence, which is all we can expect of Subaru I guess at this point.
However, the biggest reveal is probably how sinister and cruel his curse is. It almost gives a will or consciousness to the miasma that surrounds him. In particular, how lovingly his heart gets caressed by the hand of the witch before receding back and show the folly of Subaru's moment of recklessness or courage depending on how you interpret it. In previous iterations when Subaru tries to tell about his return by Death it always seemed to be a direct threat that if he tries to ignore the warnings, he will die. But of course, this is Re:Zero and suffering is taken to another level. It's not Subaru who dies, but Emilia through some unexplainable shenanigans of the witch. It just is shocking to see how much more pervasive and powerful this curse is than previously thought. The irony of it all is just fitting.
We see Betty again after a while and she says some pretty vague things. It's almost as if she actually is aware of these loops that Subaru is repeating. It's speculation at this point, but that is what caught my attention when she made her debut in front of Subaru cradling Emilia's lifeless corpse. For the next action she takes is sending Subaru away from the mansion, although I am not too sure what her motivation is. Pity perhaps? Subaru can't seem to make up his mind though. When the white whale is about to eat him he screams not wanting to die. When he inadvertently kills Emilia, he begs for Beatrice to kill him. Acting like a coward as usual I guess.
Puck's contract is dissolved with Emilia's death and Betty sends Subaru away to a place she can't see him die. It's interesting as Betty sends Emilia's corpse as well along with Subaru, which is kind of odd. We again see Subaru begging someone to end his life and as if getting his wish Betelguese and the witch's cult appears. Not surprising though appears Subaru is able to see Betelguese's Unseen Hand, which takes on a very familiar shape of the witch's hands. I wonder why Subaru can see it now, is it because the miasma is getting stronger?
I was worried when it seemed like Betelguese was going to defile Emilia's dead body in front of him, but luckily or unluckily enough Puck shows up and is pissed.
Another great episode, but I am starting to get a little tired of the crap Subaru is having to deal with.
Hmm... I think that is about all I want to talk about, but I feel like I am forgetting something. Must be my imagination. :p
Requiem-x
2016-07-24, 15:41
Just when I thought the series was getting stale, it brings it back once again. Funny how it is more reliable as a whole than its protagonist right now. That said, the last bit with Emilia was just fate kicking Subaru in the balls, or at least it looks like it, but considering how things have gone it COULD be his fault somehow.
Also, as an inmediate impression, its admirable Emilia is still willing to listen to Subaru, and believe him, after all the crap that's gone down. I know the whole point of this arc seems to be she's not a waifu, but damn, EMT indeed.
What else, what else, oh right, the hell happened to Rem? :twitch: I also thought it was the white whale messing with Subaru's head at first, but Otto's reaction came before that, and now things seem to have gone way too far for it just to be Subaru's imagination. Like, how the hell would he know about those dark vectors? Even if it got a bit overshadowed by the stuff at the end, that twist really came out of nowhere, and you can bet I want to know what is that about. And all the other stuff too. Well played, Re:zero.
Looks like the next episode is a big one. "From zero"...
We actually NT9 now?
blakstealth
2016-07-24, 15:46
Good lord. Puck in that last scene looked like a goddamn G.
DemonneoPT
2016-07-24, 15:49
@Elestia
Man, how can you call Subaru a coward if we are speaking about the same guy that jumped to the mabeasts nest just to save the kids? The same guy that is willing to go against nature itself and suicide so he can save Rem and Emilia... i mean, he is messed up at this point but not a coward!
So why does Puck keep referring to Emilia as his daughter? First with that giant creature-like Puck in the snow couple episodes back and now again ..
Mangonel
2016-07-24, 16:02
This feels like its starting to become an exercise in masochism... At the very least he doesn't have to see Emilia's corpse desecrated. Small favors right?
We've been shown quite thoroughly that Subaru's mental constitution has its limits. I feel hes being broken to the point where another self-induced rally of determination is going to strain believability.
I wonder if we'll get some more info on the parameters of his ability/curse. Something to let him plan at least a little bit. Perhaps it will be related to the increase in Witch's miasma hes carrying?
larethian
2016-07-24, 16:02
What took Pack so long to act?
He needs to relocate himself physically and it takes a finite amount of time.
Judging by her reaction??
Ah-reh CR??
Dunno. Maybe Puck is so old he just considers her a surrogate daughter?
Syan48306
2016-07-24, 16:07
Man. Subaru, stop losing focus.
The first thing you tell Emilia when you see her is "we've got to go, now." You can't just do that, you've got explain yourself. I thought you learned that in the previous episode. Negotiate to get what you want. :/
Beatrice is a very interesting character. It's almost as if she knows what's going on but can't stomach actually killing him so she sends him off to die somewhere else. Then again, she might just dislike killing. Maybe we'll find out later.
Could Subaru be turning more and more into the authority of Pride? It's as if his own hidden hands from within him killed Emilia. After that, he can also see Betelgeuse's hands too. Perhaps that lines up with the witches smell getting stronger? Purely speculation.
EDIT: I guess Rem is still second to Emilia for Subaru.
Rem dies = run run run, "I don't want to die"
Emilia dies = kill meeeeeeeee.
Lulz
Next episode is titled "From Zero". Get hyped.
That was the chapter that turned normal novel readers into raving fans who won't shut the hell up. :heh:
Please tell me this means that there will be less suffering in the future.
Good lord. Puck in that last scene looked like a goddamn G.
Puck looked like floating Gilgamesh unleashing Gate of Babylon there. :heh:
Please tell me this means that there will be less suffering in the future.
Never. Suffering more and more is the point.
HandofFate
2016-07-24, 16:24
Since this series seems to be going for the seven sins motif, what interpretation of pride is Subaru showing? That everyone should just get what's he's saying without taking into account their awareness and circumstances?
With that, wonder if other characters are showing other aspects.
Roswall is showing a bit of wrath.
Rem with her sacrificing herself so hard each time for Subaru might be something, and not just total affection.
I also get the feeling that Betty does know about Subarus death power, but can't directly talk about just like how Subaru can't. Perhaps just bringing it up and questioning Subaru will kill her, him or somebody else near.
Applehell
2016-07-24, 16:28
He rambles and raves to Emilia about an impending danger, before ultimately attacking Emilia verbally about her failures.
That actually seemed like he was critizing himself rather than her. Emilia seemed to have picked up on it too. He's hurting a ton and he can't even hide that anymore.
Please tell me this means that there will be less suffering in the future.
You know nobody can say anything explicit about that. Just wait and see.
Jerseykid
2016-07-24, 16:32
I keep worrying Subaru isn't going to die fast enough before he hits a save point
@Elestia
Man, how can you call Subaru a coward if we are speaking about the same guy that jumped to the mabeasts nest just to save the kids? The same guy that is willing to go against nature itself and suicide so he can save Rem and Emilia... i mean, he is messed up at this point but not a coward!
But is he the same guy? Let's face it, Subaru is showing us his ugliest side, with good reason, but it is really hard not call him out on some of the stupid things he has said and done. I still love him and wish he could pull himself together again like in the past, but it doesn't look like its going to happen soon due to what he has been subjected to.
DemonneoPT
2016-07-24, 16:36
Man. Subaru, stop losing focus.
The first thing you tell Emilia when you see her is "we've got to go, now." You can't just do that, you've got explain yourself. I thought you learned that in the previous episode. Negotiate to get what you want. :/
Yes, because explaining to her why she has to go away from the mansion turned out to be much better option. So good she even died :heh:
EDIT: I guess Rem is still second to Emilia for Subaru.
Rem dies = run run run, "I don't want to die"
Emilia dies = kill meeeeeeeee.
Lulz
More like:
Rem is dead and Emilia dies because of him = Kill me! At that point, the timeline is too much fucked up for him to be there.
That actually seemed like he was critizing himself rather than her. Emilia seemed to have picked up on it too. He's hurting a ton and he can't even hide that anymore.
Oh that is an interesting thought. It's very possible Subaru is projecting his failure and flaws onto Emilia. He doesn't really know her at all despite his undying (lol) feelings for her, so its probably easy for him to do it at this point.
Since this series seems to be going for the seven sins motif, what interpretation of pride is Subaru showing? That everyone should just get what's he's saying without taking into account their awareness and circumstances?
With that, wonder if other characters are showing other aspects.
Roswall is showing a bit of wrath.
Rem with her sacrificing herself so hard each time for Subaru might be something, and not just total affection.
Subaru is probably pride because he's prideful about his achievements and for being always there to save everyone, that's my guess. Just watch episode 13 again and you'll see that.
FlareKnight
2016-07-24, 16:42
There is so much uncertainty in this episode that I can't know what to think right now.
This freaking whale! I don't get how it works or how it will interact with Subaru's Return by Death or anything! Plus if this whale erases people it eats....why would anyone be afraid of it? It's a creature that apparently never kills anyone right? Except it did kill that one swordsman but didn't eat him? Ok? I don't know.
Will Rem come back? She better, but I don't know she will. In a sense Emilia's death is almost secondary since you know she'll just be back next episode after Subaru dies. That'll be fine. It's far more concerning with Rem since we don't know what will happen.
The Witch as well remains totally hard to read. That power is completely malicious. It tries to scare Subaru into staying quiet before and when it realizes that doesn't matter it then kills the person in front of him. What is up with that? It's like this power refuses to directly harm Subaru past just giving him a scare or frankly being a jerk that is openly mocking him.
Frankly I'm just concerned about how this situation will continue. I don't think Rem would be gone for good, but there's no guarantee she's back next episode either. But it's hardly going to be Subaru's rise to recovery if Rem is gone. It won't be much of an accomplishment if she's not back.
What will even happen when that whale dies? Nothing or some kind of return of memory? I don't know. It feels like this episode can be summed up as "holy crap.....and I don't know."
I'm just wondering how that first swordsman didn't get erased from history. Maybe he wasn't devoured?
I mean for Subaru it could just a side effect of his ripple effect proof memory.
I totally understand Subaru being such an incoherent mess. He's probably panicking so hard he probably can't even think of lying, let alone string together a coherent one.
Lets hope that Rem's erasure isn't something that happens retroactively. That would suck the most.
As for Puck calling her his daughter... "musume" can also mean "girl" iirc.
Also, since no one has exclaimed this yet:
Being Subaru is suffering.
Anh_Minh
2016-07-24, 16:57
I'm just wondering how that first swordsman didn't get erased from history. Maybe he wasn't devoured?
Yeah, it was a whole subjugation force. It's possible there was someone to pick up his corpse and escape.
About time for Subaru to realize how amazing the witch is. There doesn't seem to be any limits to her power, so he can go ahead and die as many times as it takes. His enemies don't show any mercy, so it's time for him to become cold-blooded as well. We get that it's painful, but by now I want to see him put on an evil grin as he bites his tongue and drowns in his own blood. That's the only way he can win.
Wandering Soul
2016-07-24, 17:05
About time for Subaru to realize how amazing the witch is. There doesn't seem to be any limits to her power, so he can go ahead and die as many times as it takes. His enemies don't show any mercy, so it's time for him to become cold-blooded as well. We get that it's painful, but by now I want to see him put on an evil grin as he bites his tongue and drowns in his own blood. That's the only way he can win.
Considering how scared out of his mind Subaru was when the whale approached and how he started screaming about how he doesn't want to die, I don't think he has it in him to become cold blooded.
Subaru also still doesn't understand the ability completely. All this episode did was show him that the witch isn't above going after other people if he tries to tell them he has the ability. For all Subaru knows, he has a finite number of respawns at each checkpoint.
Mad Pierrot
2016-07-24, 17:07
I was wondering in the beginning why didn't Subaru kill himself to return to the "checkpoint" where Rem existed rather than going on to the next stage with less rings?
This freaking whale! I don't get how it works or how it will interact with Subaru's Return by Death or anything! Plus if this whale erases people it eats....why would anyone be afraid of it? It's a creature that apparently never kills anyone right? Except it did kill that one swordsman but didn't eat him? Ok? I don't know.
Uhm, by sheer size and speed alone that thing is terrifying. It's *faster* than a dragon mount and it literally blinds anywhere around it with mist... it's not even the *fact* that it kills people that makes it scary (like when you spot a gigantic bug in your room).
Dont forget about the people who survived to tell the story.
Applehell
2016-07-24, 17:15
The other sins have already been estabilished as the rest of the Cult Bishops.
pic
Subaru is probably pride because he's prideful about his achievements and for being always there to save everyone, that's my guess. Just watch episode 13 again and you'll see that.
Those aren't cult bishops and that image is from vol 8 which the anime hasn't covered (we are on v6) so you should delete that,
I was wondering in the beginning why didn't Subaru kill himself to return to the "checkpoint" where Rem existed rather than going on to the next stage with less rings?
He's scared of dying. You can see him say it in the episode.
FlareKnight
2016-07-24, 17:19
Hm, by sheer size and speed alone that thing is terrifying. It's *faster* than a dragon mount and it literally blinds anywhere around it with mist... it's not even the fact that it kills people that makes it scary (like when you spot a gigantic bug in your room).
Don't forget about the people who survived to tell the story.
I still think the thing should be considered more a curiosity by the fact that to the common knowledge it doesn't bother eating people. And I do think the casualties that don't result in eaten people are a good reason for people to be scared of it. People are startled by large bugs, but are definitely scared of an impending disaster coming their way.
And frankly if I see a big bug in the room I'm just going to kill it.
Draco Spirit
2016-07-24, 17:23
I'm just wondering how that first swordsman didn't get erased from history. Maybe he wasn't devoured?
That swordsman story is dam suspicious isn't it? I'm going with the theory someone knifed him in the back and blamed it on the whale.
I was wondering in the beginning why didn't Subaru kill himself to return to the "checkpoint" where Rem existed rather than going on to the next stage with less rings?
He's scared of dying. You can see him say it in the episode.
It amuses me how people keep expecting him to "hit reset" every time something doesn't go his way. Like dying's so easy and all... :heh:
I know that I sure wouldn't be able to "hit reset" whenever I wanted to. I'd probably be far more screwed up than Subaru in the head by now as well.
Mad Pierrot
2016-07-24, 17:38
It amuses me how people keep expecting him to "hit reset" every time something doesn't go his way. Like dying's so easy and all... :heh:
Yeah, but one of the last times he was so desperated to kill himself he threw him from a cliff. Of course everybody is afraid of dying, but Subaru had a lot of determination to hit reset.
I know that I sure wouldn't be able to "hit reset" whenever I wanted to. I'd probably be far more screwed up than Subaru in the head by now as well.
That makes two of us, then. :eyespin:
We get it, dying is scary, at least for the first 10 times or so. He's gonna get over it eventually. This would be a good time.
FlareKnight
2016-07-24, 17:40
It amuses me how people keep expecting him to "hit reset" every time something doesn't go his way. Like dying's so easy and all... :heh:Just shows the difference of situation :heh:. Rationally it makes sense to hit a reset button when things go bad. But...people don't think suicide is that comfortable right? Subaru has only done that once and it required a serious effort and level of commitment to do it. The moment he starts killing himself at every inconvenience then his entire mental state might fall apart. Someone who easily discards his own life can hardly be expected to value the life of others.
He has to keep wanting to live. And it makes sense that he does. The previous arcs should make that clear. He does lose something every time he dies. The memories of those around him and his connections to them. After having to re-start his connection to Rem and Ram in the second arc....I'd expect him to value staying alive and allowing those connections to remain intact.
The second someone "gets over" dying they could easily become a monster. People are asking Subaru to become a sociopath here. Just get over the loss of bonds and relationships. Get over seeing the people you care about dead. Get over the pain of dying. Yeah, that sounds really simple.
Those aren't cult bishops and that image is from vol 8 which the anime hasn't covered (we are on v6) so you should delete that,
oh they are not? sorry about that, got bad informed
Yeah, but one of the last times he was so desperated to kill himself he threw him from a cliff. Of course everybody is afraid of dying, but Subaru had a lot of determination to hit reset.
We get it, dying is scary, at least for the first 10 times or so. He's gonna get over it eventually. This would be a good time.
Guys, he did ask. Remember? Then, when Betelgeuse tried, he remembered something (I guess? Maybe what he was fighting for? I dunno) and dodged. The will to live isn't something to be triffled with.
And, like someone said in another thread before, this isn't All You Need is Kill. This is another kind of story.
Yeah, but one of the last times he was so desperated to kill himself he threw him from a cliff. Of course everybody is afraid of dying, but Subaru had a lot of determination to hit reset.
That was when things somewhat worked out with determination. You can see how well that "determination" fares in this arc. Now Subaru lost Rem and probably permanently mentally scarred.
Just shows the difference of situation :heh:. Rationally it makes sense to hit a reset button when things go bad. But...people don't think suicide is that comfortable right? Subaru has only done that once and it required a serious effort and level of commitment to do it. The moment he starts killing himself at every inconvenience then his entire mental state might fall apart. Someone who easily discards his own life can hardly be expected to value the life of others.
He has to keep wanting to live. And it makes sense that he does. The previous arcs should make that clear. He does lose something every time he dies. The memories of those around him and his connections to them. After having to re-start his connection to Rem and Ram in the second arc....I'd expect him to value staying alive and allowing those connections to remain intact.
The second someone "gets over" dying they could easily become a monster. People are asking Subaru to become a sociopath here. Just get over the loss of bonds and relationships. Get over seeing the people you care about dead. Get over the pain of dying. Yeah, that sounds really simple.
Yeah, there are enough monsters around. Let him keep being a somewhat normal kid for as long as possible, please... :D
I wonder how long he sat there holding Emilia's corpse in the pool of blood...
moridin84
2016-07-24, 18:26
Some people are saying that they hope that Subaru is going to start "becoming more cold blooded". I don't want that at all. I want him to return to his original, more positive personality.
Some people are saying that he should be more willing to commit suicide but, you know, that wouldn't really help. He's gotten much, much more information by "playing until he dies". For example, he could have killed himself the moment Rem died. However, he'd ending up losing everything he learned in this episode.
I think this is now drifting uncomfortable close to being torture porn.It's been like this for a while.
Watch torture porn with sprinkle of awkwardness porn, then come to the thread and enjoy excuses porn. :heh:
I'm starting to seriously think most of the people defending Subaru to the death must have read ahead.
...or have been spoiled of future events.
Especially with everyone repeating the "this is some other kind of story" in ambiguity over and over. Okey what kind of story is it then?
While I can understand some sympathy, and Subaru isn't responsible for all the wrongs of the world, but holy shit does he make life miserable for a lot of people around him with his bad thinking—or rather, no thinking. Whatever future climax people are defending him for, at this point better be damn good, and I mean really REALLY damn GOOD, for wasting so much time on Subaru crying and being stupid for at least 5 episodes? 6 episodes? I lost count. We didn't even get much of anything for it, the negotiation tutoring is practically just as enlightening as the famous "People die when they're killed" quote, and everything else is just questions and series voodoo.
This is slowly making the series un-recommendable... "Go watch Re:Zero it's really good! Except for 2-6 episodes at a time when the character will behave like a complete moron and gracefully omit saying or seeing the obvious even when its so easy he should have said it by mistake by now... but it's good... kind of"
Also,
Both Emilia and Rem died this episode I honestly couldn't care less. Literally felt nothing.
If there's anything this Subaru madness loop has illustrated from a writing perspective, is that once you loop enough times everything starts to get devalued and devalued into nothing. You reach a point where everything in the story (except maybe the main character) has ZERO value while in the loop. Events, character actions, and so on only have value once a loop concludes or you KNOW you're in the "end loop." Which is frankly boring. Every single non-ending loop is just as important as good fanfiction, because it's essentially "it could happen" but "didn't actually happen in the canon".
Next episode is titled "From Zero". Get hyped.
That was the chapter that turned normal novel readers into raving fans who won't shut the hell up. :heh:That better not be "Subaru starts from Episode 1 checkpoint" :eyebrow:
That would be essentially the author saying "Oh sorry guys got a little Lost there and actually I have no idea how to fix the giant mess I caused, opsie. Let me start over and make Subaru perfect. Let's ignore everything that happened ever had any meaning or significance. Look Subaru doesn't have uncurable-PTSD issues and uncurable-idiocy! Awesome right!"
Please NO shitty "Lost" ending.
Please NO shitty "Lost" ending.
Please NO shitty "Lost" ending.
The second someone "gets over" dying they could easily become a monster. People are asking Subaru to become a sociopath here. Just get over the loss of bonds and relationships. Get over seeing the people you care about dead. Get over the pain of dying. Yeah, that sounds really simple.
I have an opposing view of this, personally. Human nature is not about clinging to all those things, but about adaptation. The sooner he is able to conform to his new reality where he'll need to experience death many times to move on, the better off he'll be.
The more he denies that reality, the more he suffers. We've seen plenty of that by now. It would be a good time for him to grow past that. There hasn't been any badass moments for him lately..
Yeah, but one of the last times he was so desperate to kill himself he threw him from a cliff. Of course everybody is afraid of dying, but Subaru had a lot of determination to hit reset.
Some people are saying that he should be more willing to commit suicide but, you know, that wouldn't really help. He's gotten much, much more information by "playing until he dies". For example, he could have killed himself the moment Rem died. However, he'd ending up losing everything he learned in this episode.
Both are true. However this time, its like on another scale. He loses Rem, who he knows loves him(and its feeling like the reverse is also starting to become true) AND the one he loves. That should be enough justification to kill himself immediately, compared to only Rem(Ram? forgot which one), whom he didn't care about as much as he does now. For him to hold back "until someone kills him", which may or may not happen, is somewhat understandable, but similarly nonsensical. I'm thinking Puck will do the job(hell, he did it the 'other' time, and it wasn't even Subaru's fault).
Wandering Soul
2016-07-24, 19:02
I wonder how long he sat there holding Emilia's corpse in the pool of blood...
It was sunny outside when she died and it was sunset when Betty walked in so I wouldn't be surprised if he was there for an hour or two.
The second someone "gets over" dying they could easily become a monster. People are asking Subaru to become a sociopath here. Just get over the loss of bonds and relationships. Get over seeing the people you care about dead. Get over the pain of dying. Yeah, that sounds really simple.So what are you saying, Subaru needs to wait for a pie to drop from the sky?
Become the damn monster if that's whats required, worry about the stupid consequences when everyone is still alive.
What's exactly wrong with this? You're telling me that if face with the choice of saving the people around you from suffering or death you'd choose not to if it's inconvenient? Even if you lived forever, do you want to live forever with regret? And if you wouldn't regret that sort of decision then I don't know what to say... you're already a bigger monster then any sort of decision would make you into: "it's alright for everyone else to die and suffer so that I may remain pure".
Not all good decisions are warm and fuzzy. When faced with guaranteed disaster, protecting something is better then losing everything.
QFT
...It's been like this for a while.
Also,
Both Emilia and Rem died this episode I honestly couldn't care less. Literally felt nothing.
If there's anything this Subaru madness loop has illustrated from a writing perspective, is that once you loop enough times everything starts to get devalued and devalued into nothing. You reach a point where everything in the story (except maybe the main character) has ZERO value while in the loop. Events, character actions, and so on only have value once a loop concludes or you KNOW you're in the "end loop." Which is frankly boring. Every single non-ending loop is just as important as good fanfiction, because it's essentially "it could happen" but "didn't actually happen in the canon"...
Hmm... reminds of a time when I watched a same episode repeat for eight weeks running! :heh: no, more like :frustrated:
I did come out of this episode more curious about Beatrice. She actually seemed a bit sadden by what was going on and appeared to know much more than I thought.
Now risking sounding like a broken record... Puck is a wildcard in this plot, IMO.
Akito Kinomoto
2016-07-24, 19:17
Well, he can see the hands now. I could see him start to take a supporting role when Reinhard or whoever goes up against the cult
Rem is dead and so is Emilia, and it looks like whoever's lost ends up wiped from memory. Though I wonder how Puck still remembers the latter
He could still use Return by Death to bring them back, but the way they died feels too permanent. Like, character deaths in previous episodes didn't linger for that long. And to be honest, this is starting to get a little over the top even for me; killing either Rem or Emilia is one thing, but both at once...
Guys, he did ask. Remember? Then, when Betelgeuse tried, he remembered something (I guess? Maybe what he was fighting for? I dunno) and dodged. The will to live isn't something to be triffled with.
And, like someone said in another thread before, this isn't All You Need is Kill. This is another kind of story.
More like this is not Saike Mata Shitemo
Rem is dead and so is Emilia, and it looks like whoever's lost ends up wiped from memory. Though I wonder how Puck still remembers the latter
Because Emilia didn't die to the Whale, but rather, the "dark hands" of the curse.
FlareKnight
2016-07-24, 20:04
So what are you saying, Subaru needs to wait for a pie to drop from the sky?
Become the damn monster if that's whats required, worry about the stupid consequences when everyone is still alive.
What's exactly wrong with this? You're telling me that if face with the choice of saving the people around you from suffering or death you'd choose not to if it's inconvenient? Even if you lived forever, do you want to live forever with regret? And if you wouldn't regret that sort of decision then I don't know what to say... you're already a bigger monster then any sort of decision would make you into: "it's alright for everyone else to die and suffer so that I may remain pure".
Not all good decisions are warm and fuzzy. When faced with guaranteed disaster, protecting something is better then losing everything.
Umm there is a lot wrong with that. I mean if you want to become a soulless sociopath that's your choice, but I'm sure as heck not going to choose that route.
Your problem is that you presume that you'd decide to save the people around you in that situation. Once you become the person that doesn't care about your own life then why would you keep caring about anyone around you? The most logical choice then is to say "screw it, I'm out" and turn your back on everything. Though it seems like you've already reached that point from your own comments. And you wonder why that's a bad thing? You have all my pity.
That's the path you are suggesting taking. And what is the "stay pure" nonsense? You aren't staying pure in that scenario, but piling on more trauma to carry. There's nothing clean, warm or fuzzy.
So what are you saying, Subaru needs to wait for a pie to drop from the sky?
Become the damn monster if that's whats required, worry about the stupid consequences when everyone is still alive.
What's exactly wrong with this? You're telling me that if face with the choice of saving the people around you from suffering or death you'd choose not to if it's inconvenient? Even if you lived forever, do you want to live forever with regret? And if you wouldn't regret that sort of decision then I don't know what to say... you're already a bigger monster then any sort of decision would make you into: "it's alright for everyone else to die and suffer so that I may remain pure".
Not all good decisions are warm and fuzzy. When faced with guaranteed disaster, protecting something is better then losing everything.
And what would be the point of becoming a monster to save the people you care about if you end up not caring about them?
Subaru was trying to die this episode. He sought out Betelgeuse hoping he'd kill him.
Technically Betelgeuse found him. He didn't get the urge to want to die until Emilia died. Although since he jumped out of the way, you can assume that he still wasn't committed to that idea. So no, he hasn't truly wanted to die yet.
Technically Betelgeuse found him. He didn't get the urge to want to die until Emilia died. Although since he jumped out of the way, you can assume that he still wasn't committed to that idea. So no, he hasn't truly wanted to die yet.
He only dodged because Betelgeuse insulted Emilia.
Haruyasha
2016-07-24, 20:20
Welp, lets see... if we follow the pattern, this is the last time Subaru dies.
What I never understood is that this entire time, Puck could easily tell Emilia that Subaru is telling the truth, yet he doesn't ever show up until it's too late. His mind reading power is virtually useless.
Wandering_Youth
2016-07-24, 20:32
Wow, the Witch is a real bitch. It looks like she's done threatening Subaru himself and is now going after others anytime he tries to let out his secret. Pure evil....
Well Puck looks pissed and I'm pretty damn sure he's going to slice Subaru in half once he finds out that he killed her. Is it possible we can finally find out what kind of contract Puck and Emilia have?
On a bright side in this very dark time for Subaru is that he can now see the archbishops abilities which may give him an advantage in the coming battle. If his mind can really hang on for that long.
Syan48306
2016-07-24, 20:39
Anyone think the conversation with Beatrice was a little strange?
She isn't able to satisfy his wishes. Is her contract with Subaru from the past still active? Is that why she can't kill him and that she has to send him off somewhere else to die? She can neither protect him properly nor can she kill him - hence the failing of the wishes.
It looked like beatrice knew a lot more than she's leading on.
Anyone think the conversation with Beatrice was a little strange?
She isn't able to satisfy his wishes. Is her contract with Subaru from the past still active? Is that why she can't kill him and that she has to send him off somewhere else to die? She can neither protect him properly nor can she kill him - hence the failing of the wishes.
It looked like beatrice knew a lot more than she's leading on.
She mentions about pain and suffering; maybe she just didn't have the heart to kill Subaru in cold blood like that. It would be too much for her heart to bear.
And what would be the point of becoming a monster to save the people you care about if you end up not caring about them?
Subaru was trying to die this episode. He sought out Betelgeuse hoping he'd kill him.
You're a bigger monster if you choose to do nothing!
It's like knowing there's a bomb that's gonna blow up a school and you sitting there worrying about what problems you MIGHT have after you stop a god damn disaster.
I'm not saying I'm some kind of martyr here but you're all tacking this idea of "risking your life to save lives" and making it some sort of mortal sin just to somehow save face to this pathetic character. Give me a break, it's a pathetic excuse!
Umm there is a lot wrong with that. I mean if you want to become a soulless sociopath that's your choice, but I'm sure as heck not going to choose that route.I love how trying to save everyone suddenly makes you a guranteed souless sociopath. Wonderful.
But that aside, okey so you choose Subaru's route.... everyone else is dead, except you. Have a nice life, you're clearly a great person with a big hearth.
Your problem is that you presume that you'd decide to save the people around you in that situation. Once you become the person that doesn't care about your own life then why would you keep caring about anyone around you? The most logical choice then is to say "screw it, I'm out" and turn your back on everything.That's some great self serving logic you have.
Following that thinking everyone who risked their life to save anyone should clearly be preemptively put in jail, since they clearly will all become serial killers or something. They risking their life and all that, so there's no telling when they'll "turn" right?
So what if Rem and Otto and probably the entire caravan there died because of you? and in the case of Rem for you. So what if you know the entire village is gonna die, kids, families, everyone. Gotta protect no.1 right? Don't worry about Rem dieing there for you, since she risked her life for you she was clearly on the way to be a psycho right? And let's forget about Emillia who cared for you more then was really called of her given what she knew. It's more important YOU avoid becoming those soulless ones by trying to save her!
You're essentially tacking the "screw it, I'm out" solution only you're not out right saying it. Since what the hell else are you doing other then saving your own skin? There's only TWO options "save everyone" or "save yourself" there's no convenient wash your hands of the affair option you're implying.
And what is the "stay pure" nonsense?That refers to your position, hence why I used quotes when I wrote it. I'll spell it out if it wasn't clear. As far as I understand, you believe that so long as you keep zero-risk of getting moved from some idealistic high ground (ie. you keep "pure"), somehow everyone dieing around you is perfectly justified and you can live as a "normal" human being or go to haven for your good deeds or whatever.
My assessment is you're a monster if you let people die around you, and no excuse other then trying and failing can save you.
You have all my pity.Keep your pity. If someone ever saves your life give it to him. Though I can tell you some of us will save you even if you think of us as "soulless sociopath" for doing it, because that's just how important a life is.
Wandering Soul
2016-07-24, 21:07
Welp, lets see... if we follow the pattern, this is the last time Subaru dies.
What I never understood is that this entire time, Puck could easily tell Emilia that Subaru is telling the truth, yet he doesn't ever show up until it's too late. His mind reading power is virtually useless.
Puck can't read his minds, he can simply read people so that he can tell whether or not they are honest. He can also tell if they have any hostile intentions towards he or Emilia.
Even if Puck can tell that Subaru is telling the truth, the fact that Subaru can't say anything without someone paying the price still stands.
Anyone think the conversation with Beatrice was a little strange?
She isn't able to satisfy his wishes. Is her contract with Subaru from the past still active? Is that why she can't kill him and that she has to send him off somewhere else to die? She can neither protect him properly nor can she kill him - hence the failing of the wishes.
It looked like beatrice knew a lot more than she's leading on.
This, and she mentioned Roswall too.
Applehell
2016-07-24, 21:18
Welp, lets see... if we follow the pattern, this is the last time Subaru dies.
What I never understood is that this entire time, Puck could easily tell Emilia that Subaru is telling the truth, yet he doesn't ever show up until it's too late. His mind reading power is virtually useless.
That's because Puck can only read emotions and intentions. It's not literal mind reading, but instead an empathic ability. I.e he could telling if you're lying, but not what your lying about without context.
Akito Kinomoto
2016-07-24, 21:36
Because Emilia didn't die to the Whale, but rather, the "dark hands" of the curse
...how did carriage boy know the team got killed by the White Whale if it wipes its victims from memorial existence?
FlareKnight
2016-07-24, 21:42
...how did carriage boy know the team got killed by the White Whale if it wipes its victims from memorial existence?I suppose some were just crushed by direct impacts and not eaten? Maybe it was full?
Or maybe something else happened and they just blamed it on the whale later. If some of them were eaten and some just killed and left to rot...maybe their memories were reworked to thinking that was their full party.
...how did carriage boy know the team got killed by the White Whale if it wipes its victims from memorial existence?
Because it didnt target them, it killed the bandana guy, everyone scattered, then it targeted Subaru' carriage
BWTraveller
2016-07-24, 21:47
You're a bigger monster if you choose to do nothing!
It's like knowing there's a bomb that's gonna blow up a school and you sitting there worrying about what problems you MIGHT have after you stop a god damn disaster.
I'm not saying I'm some kind of martyr here but you're all tacking this idea of "risking your life to save lives" and making it some sort of mortal sin just to somehow save face to this pathetic character. Give me a break, it's a pathetic excuse!
I love how trying to save everyone suddenly makes you a guranteed souless sociopath. Wonderful.
But that aside, okey so you choose Subaru's route.... everyone else is dead, except you. Have a nice life, you're clearly a great person with a big hearth.
That's some great self serving logic you have.
Following that thinking everyone who risked their life to save anyone should clearly be preemptively put in jail, since they clearly will all become serial killers or something. They risking their life and all that, so there's no telling when they'll "turn" right?
So what if Rem and Otto and probably the entire caravan there died because of you? and in the case of Rem for you. So what if you know the entire village is gonna die, kids, families, everyone. Gotta protect no.1 right? Don't worry about Rem dieing there for you, since she risked her life for you she was clearly on the way to be a psycho right? And let's forget about Emillia who cared for you more then was really called of her given what she knew. It's more important YOU avoid becoming those soulless ones by trying to save her!
You're essentially tacking the "screw it, I'm out" solution only you're not out right saying it. Since what the hell else are you doing other then saving your own skin? There's only TWO options "save everyone" or "save yourself" there's no convenient wash your hands of the affair option you're implying.
That refers to your position, hence why I used quotes when I wrote it. I'll spell it out if it wasn't clear. As far as I understand, you believe that so long as you keep zero-risk of getting moved from some idealistic high ground (ie. you keep "pure"), somehow everyone dieing around you is perfectly justified and you can live as a "normal" human being or go to haven for your good deeds or whatever.
My assessment is you're a monster if you let people die around you, and no excuse other then trying and failing can save you.
Keep your pity. If someone ever saves your life give it to him. Though I can tell you some of us will save you even if you think of us as "soulless sociopath" for doing it, because that's just how important a life is.
Actually, I think you're possibly taking things a little far here. For one thing, I don't think the issue was something about suicide being a sin or trying to save everyone is bad or something like you apparently were interpreting, but rather becoming cavalier about death is a really dangerous situation. I mean, if his life no longer means anything to him on account of his ability to reboot, then what would anyone else's life matter? If he can always bring them back then there's no problem letting them die, and yes that would erode you on certain levels and risk turning you into something terrible. So no, I would not agree with the idea that he should just throw his life away. Furthermore, right now he's trying to find a way to make things work. In that situation the more information you have the better. You could die a thousand times trying to find a choice that will get you out of something you'd know to avoid if you'd waited just a little longer before resetting. But seriously, he's repeatedly thrown himself into the line of fire for other people, and each time experienced things that I sincerely doubt you have ever experienced. It's comparatively easy to jump into the fire when you don't know what it's like to be burned, but after experiencing the pain, the regret, the anguish, and all of the terror that comes with a violent death over and over again, it only stands to reason that he'd be fighting inside between his sense of justice that tells him to die for everyone's sake and the rapidly growing voice inside yelling "I don't want to die I don't want to die please never again I don't want to die ever again!!!" It takes incredible bravery to put your life on the line; it takes even more when you really know on a deep level just what it's going to be like. And for all the talk of him being a coward and such, consider his choice to go all the way telling Emilia about his power. The sensation of having his heart touched and almost crushed was so terrible that it gave Subaru as much terror as anything he'd experienced to that point when it first happened. He managed to use it repeatedly by making sure that he stopped once the reaction hit to minimize the damage, but it was still a terrifying thing to him. This time he decided to go for it, and either let this incredible death happen to him or finally explain to Emilia why he is the way he is. That takes some serious guts, far more than you or I or most people probably have.
DemonneoPT
2016-07-24, 21:50
Both Emilia and Rem died this episode I honestly couldn't care less. Literally felt nothing.
If there's anything this Subaru madness loop has illustrated from a writing perspective, is that once you loop enough times everything starts to get devalued and devalued into nothing. You reach a point where everything in the story (except maybe the main character) has ZERO value while in the loop. Events, character actions, and so on only have value once a loop concludes or you KNOW you're in the "end loop." Which is frankly boring.
Into nothing? Each loop gives you new information about what's happening. New lore details, politics, introducing and developing new characters, epic action, messed up cliffhangers, mysteries being solve and the arise of new ones... i mean, each loop is far from boring. And like you said, all the drama and the characters dying serves to develop Subaru's character and it explains why he is so fucked up at times. This could be crucial for future events. The journey also matters, not just the destination. Also, given the huge balls this author has shown so far, i seriously believe there will be a loop where Subaru will not be able to save everyone dear to him! But if that happens, people will still bitch about it, i guarantee it :heh:
Plus, not knowing when the save point is, should also keep things interesting and unpredictable. Look at Emilia and Subaru discussion (and also the thing with the knights).. almost everyone was screaming for Subaru to kill himself just because of that but guess what, it didn't happened and the loop started after that. It was unexpected for me at least!
And i have to mention that saying you do not care anymore if Emilia or Rem dies is no different from watching the adventures of other characters in another stories/animes and not caring about them, because you know they will definitely not die since the hero is super powerfull and will conveniently appear in the right time and save everyone. Re:Zero is just an alternative way of telling the plot. That and portraying magic as a real deadly art making even the lesser minions as someone to fear is why i like this show so much and i think that is why it got so popular.
This is slowly making the series un-recommendable... "Go watch Re:Zero it's really good! Except for 2-6 episodes at a time when the character will behave like a complete moron and gracefully omit saying or seeing the obvious even when its so easy he should have said it by mistake by now... but it's good... kind of"
Those 2-6 episodes actually explains why Subaru acts the way he acts but i think people are way too used to Lelouch-like characters where nothing seems to shake them. He is far from being the idiot a lot of people seem to think he is. His actions have a background, being it from all the stuff he went through, not having time to formulate plans because there is always something happening around him or because of his lack of social skills from being a neet/otaku. Subaru dying in the first episode was the realest portray i ever saw if some nerd happens to be teleported to a medieval fantasy world..lol. He is a character with flaws, a fucking nerd and that is what makes him so interesting, complex and cringe-worthy at times :heh:
Did you not watch the episode?
It's pretty obvious that everyone who die by the White Whale get forgotten, as was proven already in the previous episode when one of the riders disappeared and Otto immediately commented that no one was riding there to begin with.
Dunno how White Whale can make everything related to that person disappear as well like items and whatnot but lets call it plot I suppose.
To that end the Sword Saint should not be remembered even if there were records of him because those records should not exist if he was consumed by White Whale. But perhaps that is the key? The person must be '' eaten '' by the whale? Whereas if the Sword Saint just got killed in action but his body was left behind he was thus not forgotten.
(Who is this Sword Saint anyway? When Otto mentioned him it seemed like Subaru knew who they were talking about but how could he? I don't think it's been ever mentioned before?)
The sword saint mentioned here is the previous generation's sword saint, the one before Reinhart. Probably the father or uncle.
The real question is....Why doesn't Suburu end up forgetting the people the whale consumed like everyone else?
Because of the love around him I would presume. That's his only special characteristic.
And remember, it isn't just the sword saint. People remembered there was an entire punitive force too.
Anh_Minh
2016-07-25, 01:42
Anyone think the conversation with Beatrice was a little strange?
She isn't able to satisfy his wishes. Is her contract with Subaru from the past still active? Is that why she can't kill him and that she has to send him off somewhere else to die? She can neither protect him properly nor can she kill him - hence the failing of the wishes.
It looked like beatrice knew a lot more than she's leading on.
I mostly thought it very strange she found Subaru with a dead Emilia and didn't question anything.
zero7090
2016-07-25, 04:13
Seriously? Read Aohiges post, no one knows about the white whales power because all traces of that person existing is gone when it's eaten so they don't know what happens to the person whose eaten.
You know there are people that survived to tell the tale, that why people know its name is a white whale in the first place right? If they survived then there is a way to run from it.
Once you become the person that doesn't care about your own life then why would you keep caring about anyone around you?
The same reason why parents in third world countries, no in everywhere on earth can sacrifice themselves for their children? They can eat less, sleep less, work more hours so their sons and daughters can have warm meals, go to school and have a better future. It is not they don't care about their own life anymore. They know how important those things are, that why they are doing their very best to for their children to have a fulfilling life.
Thus main character, himself, knowing how painful dying is and have the power to change it, will kill himself over and over to save the people he love.
You know there are people that survived to tell the tale, that why people know its name is a white whale in the first place right? If they survived then there is a way to run from it.
Are you seriously not understanding what he said?
Stop and think about it for a moment. How does "surviving it" lead to knowing what happened to the victims?
How would you learn its powers?
You don't even have any recollection of the victims ever existing in the first place. No one does.
Only victims you would remember are the ones that died but didn't get consumed out of existence, in which case, would not lead to knowing its powers.
Its powers are literally immune from being known to anyone other than anomalies like Subaru.
I have a feeling you're just not putting any thought into this.
Think about it for just 1 minute and you'll go "ooooooooh. DUH." and smack yourself in the forehead. :heh:
Syan48306
2016-07-25, 05:20
And I can't believe she barely made a comment on a dead Emilia either.Only something about Roswel. I feel like she transcends time or can feel the previous resets or contracts or something.
Syan48306
2016-07-25, 05:40
Towards the end of the episode, we get some lines from Betelgeuse that hints at why he's doing what he's doing.
Betelgeuse to dead Emilia: "Still, Unable to to overcome even one Ordeal (Subaru?), much less confront one of the sins (Betelgeuse Sloth?), and after all this waiting. She trips over the first pebble in her path, and it's over. Ah, you're truly slothful."
This suggests that he's doing what he's doing because Satella needs him to do this and has been waiting for a long time to what? Revive?
Does Satella revive as the witch if she is able to survive all of the sins or kill all of the sins? Clearly, it feels like Betelgeuse is doing what he's doing for the greater good of whoever he's serving.
How does Subaru fit into the greater plan. He's clearly part of it as well.
FlameSparkZ
2016-07-25, 07:15
Towards the end of the episode, we get some lines from Betelgeuse that hints at why he's doing what he's doing.
Betelgeuse to dead Emilia: "Still, Unable to to overcome even one Ordeal (Subaru?), much less confront one of the sins (Betelgeuse Sloth?), and after all this waiting. She trips over the first pebble in her path, and it's over. Ah, you're truly slothful."
This suggests that he's doing what he's doing because Satella needs him to do this and has been waiting for a long time to what? Revive?
Does Satella revive as the witch if she is able to survive all of the sins or kill all of the sins? Clearly, it feels like Betelgeuse is doing what he's doing for the greater good of whoever he's serving.
How does Subaru fit into the greater plan. He's clearly part of it as well.
This is just my opinion/theory, but...at first I thought the "Ordeal" was something the Cult itself had to overcome, but this last episode pretty much reveals that they are the Ordeal, and the one that has to overcome it is Emila.
I assume when the cult found out about Emilia, they saw her as a potential vessel for the witch...but in order to actually be one, she has to clear these "Ordeals".
And yes, I guess Beetlejuice ( :heh: ) saw Subaru as a "pebble" that Emilia tripped on. And because she failed even before the Ordeal began, he insulted her.
That aside, now that we know that Subaru can see the "Unseen Hands", so he should be of use when he gathers a fighting force to eliminate the Cult...but it seems that they'll have to deal with that whale first...
Why can Betelgeuse control those hands and Subaru not? Does our slothful madman have some sort of intention that triggers the hands to move a certain way for him? Also interesting to see that throughout their encountere, Betelgeuse has had zero intention to truly kill Subaru.
Triple_R
2016-07-25, 07:57
I have to admit that pathetic/suffering/tortured Subaru is getting a little bit much now, even for my tastes.
I've defended Subaru a lot in previous episodes, and I certainly respect how traumatized he must be, but it's a little disappointing that he's turned into a pure ball of impulsive rage and fever-pitch desperation. He doesn't seem to be even trying to calm himself and think things through clearly.
You've done it, Tappei Nagatsuki. You've effectively wrote a deconstruction of isekai anime. It's almost impossible for you to screw that up now. But one way you can screw up the story in general is by overdoing it. Subaru has been broken down enough. He's struggled enough. Much more of this will seem like pure sadism for its own sake. It would be best if a serious turnaround happens soon, in my opinion.
The above being said, three key factors make this episode still good overall:
1. Rem's wonderful moments. Always a joy to see Rem shine, and she certainly shines here.
2. Some interesting plot twists. It seems like the White Whale wipes his victims completely out of existence, including retroactively. Ram having no memories of Rem is a very strong "WTF?!" moment.
3. Seeing Beatrice, Emilia, and Ram again. Even given the very dark circumstances, it was still nice to finally see these characters again.
This episode is such a great smack in the face for those who criticised Subaru for not revealing his curse.
That self-talk he did in front of Emilia is such a crucial moment for his characterisation. I know many people thought the rage-filled eye was the one back in ep15, but no, this one has much bigger importance. He confronts with his naivety, his powerlessness, his recklessness, and his arrogance. He's not the hero he thought he was at the end of arc 2, and here he comes face to face with this fact all by himself. No more stubbornness, this is it.
Applehell
2016-07-25, 10:03
Kawaii! :p
http://67.media.tumblr.com/17f086abaeccb5dcc89076b9b26f92ae/tumblr_oau4vxF3lM1rcufwuo1_540.gif
http://67.media.tumblr.com/b9f02e9b85a45075fc757111bc3aafc3/tumblr_oau4vxF3lM1rcufwuo2_540.gif
FlameSparkZ
2016-07-25, 10:04
Why can Betelgeuse control those hands and Subaru not? Does our slothful madman have some sort of intention that triggers the hands to move a certain way for him? Also interesting to see that throughout their encountere, Betelgeuse has had zero intention to truly kill Subaru.
Beetlejuice called his "Unseen Hands" an authority...so I guess it's an ability he has.
As for Subaru, the hands he sees when he tries to talk about his "Return by Death" ability aren't under his control.
There are many theories regarding the hand's identity: a curse that activates itself to prevent Subaru from talking...or the Witch of Envy herself intervening, and considering how this last time the hands caressed his cheek and heart ever so lovingly (see the post above :heh: ), it's clear they aren't some "defense mechanism" but actually being controlled.
Also notice that Beetlejuice's unseen hands are smooth and simple, while the curse hands are rough and vicious-looking.
Tenzen12
2016-07-25, 10:21
One thing should be now obvious, burden of dying is cumulative. Dying twice is scary, dying ten time unbearable. Subaru can't get used to it, at best, he can break completely and became indifferent to it, but that's not matter of his decision.
At this point Subaru is confirmed Subaru is unable kill himself even if he wish redo things, best thing he can is beg for someone kill him. Seriously Subaru needs at least year or two long break where no slaughter happens to get himself into state to be able think rationally again. I don't see any other way.
- That's surprising, I thought he'd be killed by the whale but he got all the way to the manision
- Rem constantly sacrificing herself for Subaru is getting old. Rather than being selfless, I'm starting to see it as something she's doing for her own sense of self-satisfaction.
Rem doesn't sacrificing herself "constantly" she does only once in her life.
At this point Subaru is confirmed Subaru is unable kill himself even if he wish redo things, best thing he can is beg for someone kill him.
Are you talking about him psychologically unable to kill himself? If not, didn't he off'ed himself once already, by jumping of a cliff. My memory is a bit hazy, but i think he did.
Tenzen12
2016-07-25, 10:37
Yes, I am talking about his mental state.
And i have to mention that saying you do not care anymore if Emilia or Rem dies is no different from watching the adventures of other characters in another stories/animes and not caring about them, because you know they will definitely not die since the hero is super powerfull and will conveniently appear in the right time and save everyone. Re:Zero is just an alternative way of telling the plot. That and portraying magic as a real deadly art making even the lesser minions as someone to fear is why i like this show so much and i think that is why it got so popular.With regard to the classic formula comparison...
There's a difference. Characters in this die so often it almost becomes a given they'll die, rather then they'll be saved. Their personalities also become just as messed up as Subaru's. Rem has gone from paranoid, to kind toward Subaru, to now Subaru's secret lover. It's a bit much with how inconsistent it is, and short the time stan is.
I won't be surprised if we see more mutated personalities in the future for the 3 other candidates except Felt.
Also characters do permanently die a lot in stories, both old and new. But I guess mainstream most of the time they don't. :heh:
Re:Zero kind of cheats since it gets the dark story vibe that usually comes with characters dieing but with out characters actually dieing for real. And it also feels like it's so much more clever then regular stories since you don't have the hero save the day, but really the hero is just the deus ex machina of a "perfect loop" and usually involves a trump card to cleanup properly. First arc Super Knight. Second arc Roswall.
This episode is such a great smack in the face for those who criticised Subaru for not revealing his curse.Looks to me like he made more progress doing that then anything else. The plot did as well.
Don't get me wrong, the result was still pretty fucked up.
Tempester
2016-07-25, 11:17
While seeing Subaru suffer constantly throughout the past 5 episodes in different ways was very interesting, I admit that it's starting to feel a little bit stale by now. You can have the best writing ever but if you don't at least give us the fleeting hope that the MC might get his way for at least one episode among the suffering, the emotional balance of the show gets thrown off.
I have to admit that pathetic/suffering/tortured Subaru is getting a little bit much now, even for my tastes.
I've defended Subaru a lot in previous episodes, and I certainly respect how traumatized he must be, but it's a little disappointing that he's turned into a pure ball of impulsive rage and fever-pitch desperation. He doesn't seem to be even trying to calm himself and think things through clearly.
It would be best if a serious turnaround happens soon, in my opinion.
It feels like all the pieces of the plot are together now for Subaru to claim victory through his accumulated knowledge (the failed negotiations in episode 16 were obvious clues), so all he needs now is a big mental breakthrough moment like the end of episode 7 to bring himself together and gain the confidence and integrity to actually start saving people. I eagerly await the catharsis that will come with that.
FlareKnight
2016-07-25, 12:27
Yeah, I'm glad they are keeping Subaru from ending himself without reaching a very rare mental state. Requires a balance to get through these situations. Needs to be willing to hang in there as long as he possibly can in order to get through situations. Survive situations that it is possible to get through. Arc 1 could have dragged on if he gave up instead of putting through the effort to let Felt escape and hang on for as long as he could.
But, also only ending it when he has a determined focus to save the people he wants to help. And even then after he did take his life he was on the verge of falling apart in that Arc because of his desperation and fear of having the terrible things that happened, well happen again. It's not only going back, it is enduring going through events again and stressing about avoiding the worst case scenario.
This does feel pretty close to the lowest point Subaru can get to and probably about time for him to make his comeback.
I have no idea if this belongs here (mods if this belongs to another thread can you please move it?) but there are good news about episode 18 "From Zero" with a longer duration because White Fox needs to fit all the content there, I'm expecting something epic as episode 15.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2016/07/25/a-standard-length-episode-couldnt-contain-all-rezero-18-has-to-offer
I have no idea if this belongs here (mods if this belongs to another thread can you please move it?) but there are good news about episode 18 "From Zero" with a longer duration because White Fox needs to fit all the content there, I'm expecting something epic as episode 15.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2016/07/25/a-standard-length-episode-couldnt-contain-all-rezero-18-has-to-offer
White Fox rules!
DemonneoPT
2016-07-25, 13:15
I have no idea if this belongs here (mods if this belongs to another thread can you please move it?) but there are good news about episode 18 "From Zero" with a longer duration because White Fox needs to fit all the content there, I'm expecting something epic as episode 15.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2016/07/25/a-standard-length-episode-couldnt-contain-all-rezero-18-has-to-offer
See, this is the type of adaptation every story should have!!! So much love from White Fox! I'm still affraid they will pull out the same nasty trick they did to Akame Ga Kill with an original ending tho :heh:
See, this is the type of adaptation every story should have!!! So much love from White Fox! I'm still affraid they will pull out the same nasty trick they did to Akame Ga Kill with an original ending tho :heh:
To be fair, the source wasn't done by then and there was no chance for a second season.
Mister Twit
2016-07-25, 13:44
I just finished watching this series up to the current episode, and while I'm tempted to comment on Subaru's MC qualities I have a question about something else I'm still a little confused on: What happened with that "complex and unbreakable" curse Beatrice mentioned that was supposedly going to kill Subaru in a short amount of time? I think I must have missed the part where it was explained how he broke the curse and didn't die.
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-25, 13:46
I have to admit that pathetic/suffering/tortured Subaru is getting a little bit much now, even for my tastes.
I've defended Subaru a lot in previous episodes, and I certainly respect how traumatized he must be, but it's a little disappointing that he's turned into a pure ball of impulsive rage and fever-pitch desperation. He doesn't seem to be even trying to calm himself and think things through clearly.
You've done it, Tappei Nagatsuki. You've effectively wrote a deconstruction of isekai anime. It's almost impossible for you to screw that up now. But one way you can screw up the story in general is by overdoing it. Subaru has been broken down enough. He's struggled enough. Much more of this will seem like pure sadism for its own sake. It would be best if a serious turnaround happens soon, in my opinion.
I'm going meta here, but you have heard people saying that this current arc is very long and will probably take the rest of the show to finish, which is what? 7 eps away? That's the entire length of arc 2. No my friend, I'd say the suffering will still keep coming. The "best loop" would probably take a maximum of 3 episodes and I can expect the rest to be filled with more Subaru suffering. It's been on the back of my mind, but lately I'm kind of thinking I'll probably like the show even better if Subaru was a female MC. :heh:
I just finished watching this series up to the current episode, and while I'm tempted to comment on Subaru's MC qualities I have a question about something else I'm still a little confused on: What happened with that "complex and unbreakable" curse Beatrice mentioned that was supposedly going to kill Subaru in a short amount of time? I think I must have missed the part where it was explained how he broke the curse and didn't die.
The curse needed to be activated for it to kill him; the curse casters were the magical beasts, which are now dead/squashed/burned to a crisp. So the curse is still there, but dormant.
FlameSparkZ
2016-07-25, 14:08
I'm going meta here, but you have heard people saying that this current arc is very long and will probably take the rest of the show to finish, which is what? 7 eps away? That's the entire length of arc 2. No my friend, I'd say the suffering will still keep coming. The "best loop" would probably take a maximum of 3 episodes and I can expect the rest to be filled with more Subaru suffering. It's been on the back of my mind, but lately I'm kind of thinking I'll probably like the show even better if Subaru was a female MC. :heh:
One thing has been bothering me since the new OP was shown...At the very start, we see 12 birds flying in circle. What if those birds are a representation of each loop? :uhoh:
I certainly hope not, but it might be true. If that's the case, then Subaru still has some suffering to do :heh:
Tempester
2016-07-25, 14:28
I have no idea if this belongs here (mods if this belongs to another thread can you please move it?) but there are good news about episode 18 "From Zero" with a longer duration because White Fox needs to fit all the content there, I'm expecting something epic as episode 15.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2016/07/25/a-standard-length-episode-couldnt-contain-all-rezero-18-has-to-offer
That's great news! I'm not familiar with the source material, but from seeing how often the OP/ED are skipped, the fact that the episodes were already ~30 seconds longer than the usual anime episode, and now with this news, I'm glad that so much effort is being put to make this show work well, and I wish other studios would try harder with their LN adaptations because Re:Zero's execution alone is knocking much of the competition out of the park.
Incest Emblem
2016-07-25, 14:59
What I never understood is that this entire time, Puck could easily tell Emilia that Subaru is telling the truth, yet he doesn't ever show up until it's too late.
It would not have been particularly useful, because Subaru did not try to tell Emilia the truth: That he knows the witch's cult is coming to attack. Had he tried to say that rather than first raving about how Emilia must listen to him then trying to tell about his abilities in a way that got her killed, Puck might have corroborated him.
With things as they were, what Subaru said was not the truth: He had no way of knowing that things would work out if she listened to him. In fact, things would probably not have worked out that well, because it would still leave the village to be slaughtered.
Some thoughts on the whale apparently altering reality when it consumes a victim:
Does the fact that Rem never existed--after being eaten by the whale--mean Ram was born with 2 horns in this reality? It would have been an interesting twist of the knife in Subaru's wounds if it turns out that not having to save Rem meant that Ram had even greater power, she kept both horns, and she could easily repel the witch's cult.
AC-Phoenix
2016-07-25, 15:07
Some thoughts on the whale apparently altering reality when it consumes a victim:
Does the fact that Rem never existed--after being eaten by the whale--mean Ram was born with 2 horns in this reality? It would have been an interesting twist of the knife in Subaru's wounds if it turns out that not having to save Rem meant that Ram had even greater power, she kept both horns, and she could easily repel the witch's cult.
Its the first thing I would have pointed out to Ram in order to convince her rather than running into Rem's room.
Kawaii! :p
http://67.media.tumblr.com/17f086abaeccb5dcc89076b9b26f92ae/tumblr_oau4vxF3lM1rcufwuo1_540.gif
http://67.media.tumblr.com/b9f02e9b85a45075fc757111bc3aafc3/tumblr_oau4vxF3lM1rcufwuo2_540.gif
Yeah Satella loves him so much he is deeply touched.
Sorry... I ... just.... had... to :heh:
Key Board
2016-07-25, 15:28
The way it's done in Shana is that having your existence consumed means that no one (save for special people) can remember you, but it does not undo what you have done in life
If you did a great accomplishment, you would be remembered as a nameless hero.
Of course even so, erasing someone from existence produces a huge strain on cause on effect and gradually erodes the stability of the world
whether or not this produces similar repercussions in REZero remains to be seen
speaking of which I think the super powers in ReZero have no rhyme or reason
why does sloth have diclonius hands?
why is the whale a crimson denizen?
why is Subaru bound by mystery novel rules?
lesterf1020
2016-07-25, 16:35
This episode is such a great smack in the face for those who criticised Subaru for not revealing his curse.
The amusing thing was that it wasn't necessary this time. He had a carriage that had blood on it and a bunch of witch cult swords stuck in it. That should have been compelling evidence all by itself. Surely Ram would recognize the weapons of the ones who destroyed her village and removed her horn... unless all of that was erased with Rem
FlameSparkZ
2016-07-25, 16:50
The way it's done in Shana is that having your existence consumed means that no one (save for special people) can remember you, but it does not undo what you have done in life
If you did a great accomplishment, you would be remembered as a nameless hero.
Of course even so, erasing someone from existence produces a huge strain on cause on effect and gradually erodes the stability of the world
whether or not this produces similar repercussions in REZero remains to be seen
speaking of which I think the super powers in ReZero have no rhyme or reason
why does sloth have diclonius hands?
why is the whale a crimson denizen?
why is Subaru bound by mystery novel rules?
Because the author says so :heh:
The amusing thing was that it wasn't necessary this time. He had a carriage that had blood on it and a bunch of witch cult swords stuck in it. That should have been compelling evidence all by itself. Surely Ram would recognize the weapons of the ones who destroyed her village and removed her horn... unless all of that was erased with Rem
Probably not. But in her memory, it's just rewritten as losing her horn from a surprise attack, and Roswaal saving her.
Anh_Minh
2016-07-25, 16:52
The amusing thing was that it wasn't necessary this time. He had a carriage that had blood on it and a bunch of witch cult swords stuck in it. That should have been compelling evidence all by itself. Surely Ram would recognize the weapons of the ones who destroyed her village and removed her horn... unless all of that was erased with Rem
It's evidence that the Witch Cult's on its way. Not that the only hope was to run.
Still, there were things he could have done better. I don't want to be hard on him, because it's obvious he was in no state to think clearly, but he should have stated the thread more clearly. And instead of asking Emilia to just follow him, maybe send her to Roswaal? That would be asking for a lot less trust.
So, Roswaal will not show up until we get to the final loop again like in last arc?
If thats right, how convenient for him, alway avoiding all the suffering and death the others have to suffer until the good ending of the arc is reach
btw, I just can´t see this arc reaching a good ending, maybe a barely acceptable ending, but not more than that.
Applehell
2016-07-25, 19:50
speaking of which I think the super powers in ReZero have no rhyme or reason
why does sloth have diclonius hands?
why is the whale a crimson denizen?
why is Subaru bound by mystery novel rules?
What correlation are there these things supposed to have together begin to with? Because you're comparing 3 different powers that work completely independently of each other with no obivious intentional implied connections anyway.
Because the author says so :heh:
Yes, but that is case for all fiction. The rules and content are set by the author, the reader merely expriences it.
So, Roswaal will not show up until we get to the final loop again like in last arc?
If thats right, how convenient for him, alway avoiding all the suffering and death the others have to suffer until the good ending of the arc is reach
btw, I just can´t see this arc reaching a good ending, maybe a barely acceptable ending, but not more than that.
Rem did state that he was away on so meeting in the other parts of his territory.
Wandering Soul
2016-07-25, 20:56
speaking of which I think the super powers in ReZero have no rhyme or reason
why does sloth have diclonius hands?
why is the whale a crimson denizen?
why is Subaru bound by mystery novel rules?
Why are you assuming all these powers have to be connected to one another?
Especially with everyone repeating the "this is some other kind of story" in ambiguity over and over. Okey what kind of story is it then?
While I can understand some sympathy, and Subaru isn't responsible for all the wrongs of the world, but holy shit does he make life miserable for a lot of people around him with his bad thinking—or rather, no thinking. Whatever future climax people are defending him for, at this point better be damn good, and I mean really REALLY damn GOOD, for wasting so much time on Subaru crying and being stupid for at least 5 episodes? 6 episodes? I lost count. We didn't even get much of anything for it, the negotiation tutoring is practically just as enlightening as the famous "People die when they're killed" quote, and everything else is just questions and series voodoo.
Both Emilia and Rem died this episode I honestly couldn't care less. Literally felt nothing.
If there's anything this Subaru madness loop has illustrated from a writing perspective, is that once you loop enough times everything starts to get devalued and devalued into nothing. You reach a point where everything in the story (except maybe the main character) has ZERO value while in the loop. Events, character actions, and so on only have value once a loop concludes or you KNOW you're in the "end loop." Which is frankly boring. Every single non-ending loop is just as important as good fanfiction, because it's essentially "it could happen" but "didn't actually happen in the canon".
This is a REAL story of what would actually happen if some random chump with no cheats got dumped into a fantasy world of characters with their own lives and personality. He'd die and accumulate a lot of emotional baggage. If you can't handle it then go read some other isekai harem cheat slave wish-fulfillment story with a main character who should just choke on a purple dildo.
Then clearly you don't understand. We sympathize and defend Subaru not in knowledge of future events, but through empathy. Something you apparently lack. Subaru's actions are understandable. We get what he's going through and although we find his actions cringe worthy we cannot deny him. The negotiation tutoring demonstrated that these candidates are more than pretty faces and they have their own ambitions beyond being stereotypes and walking cliches. In regards to Subaru, his interaction with them gave us a window into his state of mind and their analyses basically revealed all this flaws.
That's wrong. Subaru's the one who's looping. Not us. We're just spectators. Previous loops may not have technically happened, but they happened for Subaru and you don't see him devaluing everything he cares about.
You're a bigger monster if you choose to do nothing!
It's like knowing there's a bomb that's gonna blow up a school and you sitting there worrying about what problems you MIGHT have after you stop a god damn disaster.
I'm not saying I'm some kind of martyr here but you're all tacking this idea of "risking your life to save lives" and making it some sort of mortal sin just to somehow save face to this pathetic character. Give me a break, it's a pathetic excuse!
That refers to your position, hence why I used quotes when I wrote it. I'll spell it out if it wasn't clear. As far as I understand, you believe that so long as you keep zero-risk of getting moved from some idealistic high ground (ie. you keep "pure"), somehow everyone dieing around you is perfectly justified and you can live as a "normal" human being or go to haven for your good deeds or whatever.
Your analogy better fits your own stance. If Subaru were ever capable of killing himself without hesitation in the middle of a crisis in which his loved ones are in danger because of one mistake which may or may not result in their survival, then he would have effectively become a sociopath. At that moment he'd lose any emotional attachment to Rem, Ram, and Emilia, seeing them as nothing more than objects to save and with that he'd have little reason to save them. It's not a just a matter of shouldn't. At this point he's so emotionally engrossed that he simply can't let go. He cannot let go of his love for Emilia and Rem. He can't let go of his anger at Betelgeuse for Rem's death.
There's nothing pure or moral behind our argument. This may come as a shock but Rem, Ram, and Emilia aren't important in the way you think they are. Sure their characters have won our hearts but they are ultimately important because they are important to Subaru. He's our inside man and we see the world through him. If he ceases to care about them, then what reason do we have?
My assessment is you're a monster if you let people die around you, and no excuse other then trying and failing can save you.
What the hell are you talking about!? You're the one who's saying he should just give up mid-loop and start over!
With regard to the classic formula comparison...
There's a difference. Characters in this die so often it almost becomes a given they'll die, rather then they'll be saved. Their personalities also become just as messed up as Subaru's. Rem has gone from paranoid, to kind toward Subaru, to now Subaru's secret lover. It's a bit much with how inconsistent it is, and short the time stan is.
There's nothing odd about Rem's character development. Subaru not only save her life against her suspicions and hostility, but affirmed the worth of her existence with both words and deed. That's more than enough to win a girl's heart which is more than what other series give us.
DemonneoPT
2016-07-25, 22:08
Some thoughts on the whale apparently altering reality when it consumes a victim:
Does the fact that Rem never existed--after being eaten by the whale--mean Ram was born with 2 horns in this reality? It would have been an interesting twist of the knife in Subaru's wounds if it turns out that not having to save Rem meant that Ram had even greater power, she kept both horns, and she could easily repel the witch's cult.
That would be one of the things i would ask Ram to convince her that someone important was missing in her life. But probably the story would be rewritten in a way where Ram would still be born with one horn and ended up being attacked by the cult.
The amusing thing was that it wasn't necessary this time. He had a carriage that had blood on it and a bunch of witch cult swords stuck in it. That should have been compelling evidence all by itself. Surely Ram would recognize the weapons of the ones who destroyed her village and removed her horn... unless all of that was erased with Rem
This. I do not know if they could identify the cult by the swords, but surely the state of the carriage would help to convince Emilia that an iminent attack is coming. But i really doubt she would just escape with Subaru and leave the villagers behind. But still, it would be a better approach than the one Subaru had. Truth to be told tho, a few hours before the guy was chased by a flying scary whale and left behind to die by Otto..lol. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone that is sitting in front of the computer enjoying a cold drink while Subaru in the other hand... you get my point :heh:
Related gif:
http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/3989/9575/original.gif?w=600&h
"No time to explain! Just go!!!!!!"
and then once that failed he decided to explain everything
speaking of which I think the super powers in ReZero have no rhyme or reason
why does sloth have diclonius hands?
why is the whale a crimson denizen?
why is Subaru bound by mystery novel rules?
Of course they do, but explaining would require spoilers.
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-26, 00:57
What the hell are you talking about!? You're the one who's saying he should just give up mid-loop and start over!
Honest question, do you honestly not see his point or are you just maintaining your position so as to not "lose" the "debate"?
Because see, I don't think it's such a difficult viewpoint to comprehend. Suppose my X-Com soldiers are deep in a late game mission, stuck in a situation where somebody needs to die to get out of but I don't want any of them dead, because this is my attempt at a no-death iron man run, which I have been playing for over a month now, in between my busy work schedule. At this situation I would indeed restart instead of keep going, throwing a month of time away. Is this "giving up"? My stated goal is "no one dies" not "finish the run", so me restarting is staying true with that goal.
Keeping in line with this example, you and several others' position would be someone that: although his goal is indeed "no one dies" he keeps going on regardless. However, the next best thing to expect at this point is that it will be a bitter lesson to better his next attempt at a no-death iron man run. The goal itself is already impossible to achieve no matter how well he did at the next missions until he start a new run.
========================================
Case in point, even if Subaru somehow managed to bring Emilia and the rest of the village away this time, Rem is still dead, so obviously he needs to die at some point to bring her back. And preferably sooner rather than later because his reset point might be moved to after Rem's death.
On that note, to be completely honest, I do not understand why Subaru shouted "I don't want to die" all snotty teary during his encounter with the whale, as if he forgot about his respawn ability (and why the hell didn't the whale finish him anyway?). I would think that a swift reset there would be considerably less painful on him rather than dragging on to a lingering painful dead-end, after which he went and begged someone to kill him anyways. Normal people with no respawn abilities IRL had and often chose to end their own lives in the face of despairing odds, but Subaru hasn't shown any signs of this and the one time he committed suicide was with a somewhat bright and hopeful tone.
Applehell
2016-07-26, 01:19
On that note, to be completely honest, I do not understand why Subaru shouted "I don't want to die" all snotty teary during his encounter with the whale, as if he forgot about his respawn ability (and why the hell didn't the whale finish him anyway?). I would think that a swift reset there would be considerably less painful on him rather than dragging on to a lingering painful dead-end, after which he went and begged someone to kill him anyways. Normal people with no respawn abilities IRL had and often chose to end their own lives in the face of despairing odds, but Subaru hasn't shown any signs of this and the one time he committed suicide was with a somewhat bright and hopeful tone.
Subaru has never been okay with death. He's even told Betty this back in arc 2 when she thought he took the fact he was going to die half day in too well. The sucide you mention took all his willpower to do because has no idea if his respawning is limited or not. So he alway hasto live hislife asif it is his last. Putting that aside it doesn't change the fact that dying is beyond excurating. It's not something he ever wants to experience if he can help it.
Of course they do, but explaining would require spoilers.
Indeed, though to be clear I was talking in terms of mechanics about them being separate from each other.
moridin84
2016-07-26, 01:29
Honest question, do you honestly not see his point or are you just maintaining your position so as to not "lose" the "debate"?
Because see, I don't think it's such a difficult viewpoint to comprehend. Suppose my X-Com soldiers are deep in a late game mission, stuck in a situation where somebody needs to die to get out of but I don't want any of them dead, because this is my attempt at a no-death iron man run, which I have been playing for over a month now, in between my busy work schedule. At this situation I would indeed restart instead of keep going, throwing a month of time away. Is this "giving up"? My stated goal is "no one dies" not "finish the run", so me restarting is staying true with that goal.
Keeping in line with this example, you and several others' position would be someone that: although his goal is indeed "no one dies" he keeps going on regardless. However, the next best thing to expect at this point is that it will be a bitter lesson to better his next attempt at a no-death iron man run. The goal itself is already impossible to achieve no matter how well he did at the next missions until he start a new run.
========================================
Case in point, even if Subaru somehow managed to bring Emilia and the rest of the village away this time, Rem is still dead, so obviously he needs to die at some point to bring her back. And preferably sooner rather than later because his reset point might be moved to after Rem's death.
On that note, to be completely honest, I do not understand why Subaru shouted "I don't want to die" all snotty teary during his encounter with the whale, as if he forgot about his respawn ability (and why the hell didn't the whale finish him anyway?). I would think that a swift reset there would be considerably less painful on him rather than dragging on to a lingering painful dead-end, after which he went and begged someone to kill him anyways. Normal people with no respawn abilities IRL had and often chose to end their own lives in the face of despairing odds, but Subaru hasn't shown any signs of this and the one time he committed suicide was with a somewhat bright and hopeful tone.
I find it much more admirable that he kept struggling to succeed after Rem died. Rather than giving up by committing suicide and resetting.
Plus, it's not like he has any other plan to succeed in the works.
Wandering Soul
2016-07-26, 01:45
On that note, to be completely honest, I do not understand why Subaru shouted "I don't want to die" all snotty teary during his encounter with the whale, as if he forgot about his respawn ability (and why the hell didn't the whale finish him anyway?). I would think that a swift reset there would be considerably less painful on him rather than dragging on to a lingering painful dead-end, after which he went and begged someone to kill him anyways. Normal people with no respawn abilities IRL had and often chose to end their own lives in the face of despairing odds, but Subaru hasn't shown any signs of this and the one time he committed suicide was with a somewhat bright and hopeful tone.
Even with the ability to respawn, death is still something that scares Subaru and he would much rather avoid it. Even the bright and hopeful tone he had when he committed suicide was later revealed to part of the mask that he was wearing when he was trying to earn everyone'e trust. Suicide isn't something Subaru can do casually.
Child_of_Sierra
2016-07-26, 02:04
After this episode he has more reason not to carelessly trigger his power.
Subaru thought he knew how the threat of the unseen hands worked: that they would sooner kill him than let him talk about his Return ability. The hands killed Emilia instead when it was obvious he was resolved to deal with the death it promised.
There is no guarantee that the rules for his resurrect ability won't be changed when he starts to accept death as an easy way out.
ie, after realizing everyone forgot Rem he just decides to suicide instead of confronting Emilia. He resurrects as expected... but with his "save point" now in the mansion after he survives the whale. We'd be watching Rem: Zero next week.
There is no guarantee that the rules for his resurrect ability won't be changed when he starts to accept death as an easy way out.
ie, after realizing everyone forgot Rem he just decides to suicide instead of confronting Emilia. He resurrects as expected... but with his "save point" now in the mansion after he survives the whale. We'd be watching Rem: Zero next week.
That's the scary thing, he doesn't know how the save points work and given how every three seconds he stumbles upon some horrific event, there's way too much of a possibility his save point will get moved to a situation where he'll be stuck with consequences he can't reverse. It's also really hard for him to figure it out too. He doesn't have any solid leads other then it's likely related to the witch and he can't very well experiment given the risks and it involving his death. Also now that I think about it, why do we assume his "continues" are infinite? He smells more and more of Satella each time, he might be consumed if he keeps relying on Return by Death or his "rebirths" might be finite.
Which is why the Xcom comparison is flawed. While Dark Souls is more accurate. In that game, you dont know if you have saved Solaire and will have no way to reverse it if you dont.
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-26, 05:39
There is no guarantee that the rules for his resurrect ability won't be changed when he starts to accept death as an easy way out.
ie, after realizing everyone forgot Rem he just decides to suicide instead of confronting Emilia. He resurrects as expected... but with his "save point" now in the mansion after he survives the whale. We'd be watching Rem: Zero next week.
I would say that is still a better outcome than NOT trying to die early and found out later that the save point has been moved anyway, at which case Subaru will be undoubtedly driven with a massive guilt and regret "if only I died sooner". Someone else pointed this out already but on Subaru's mind scale, the possibility of his ability not triggering correctly probably doesn't weigh too much against the possibility of him saving the ones he love by restarting. It's Re:Zero's version of Pascal's Wager, in a pure risk vs benefit point, there is just too much benefit to be had in trying to restart than the risk of it not triggering correctly, and the risk of him not being able to save his loved ones should outweigh the benefits of being careful with his ability.
Case in point:
Which is why the Xcom comparison is flawed. While Dark Souls is more accurate. In that game, you dont know if you have saved Solaire and will have no way to reverse it if you dont.
But he does know Rem is dead. The trigger when he went fuck it and decided to tell Emilia everything fully ready to die is because she forgets Rem as well. For all intents and purposes, THAT was Subaru's attempt at suicide.
As for the results. Sure, it results in Emilia's death instead, but now he knows that spilling the beans is not only a threat to him, but to everyone around him as well (which got me thinking, this could be his ultimate weapon as well. Stand in front of Betelgeuse and attempt to tell him about the respawn ability and see what happens). But, this mishap is regarding him spilling the beans, and not about whether the ability will trigger correctly or not. As shown, even after this point he is still intent on triggering his ability because he just cannot risk not saving Emilia. Only, I am not really sure why he didn't just immediately suicide. My best guess is, maybe he would eventually but the events lead to this before he could manage to do it. The guy was understandably still shaken after all.
He already considered Rem dead.
Even if he dies he's willing to sacrifice his life to save the Emilia here. Perhaps he's subconsciously wishing for yet another heroic death, maybe not. Either way he made up his mind about coming completely truthful about everything instead of being scared.
Obviously the new development means that he can't take the "easy way" out.
The hand is obviously threatening him, since it changed target once she realises taking his own life won't scare him. Common sense suggests there' no reason why she will help him if it means more reckless reveal of his abilities. She wants to silence him, helping him taking out obstacles is definitely the last thing she wants to do.
Tenzen12
2016-07-26, 06:53
I would say that is still a better outcome than NOT trying to die early and found out later that the save point has been moved anyway, at which case Subaru will be undoubtedly driven with a massive guilt and regret "if only I died sooner". Someone else pointed this out already but on Subaru's mind scale, the possibility of his ability not triggering correctly probably doesn't weigh too much against the possibility of him saving the ones he love by restarting. It's Re:Zero's version of Pascal's Wager, in a pure risk vs benefit point, there is just too much benefit to be had in trying to restart than the risk of it not triggering correctly, and the risk of him not being able to save his loved ones should outweigh the benefits of being careful with his ability.
Case in point:
But he does know Rem is dead. The trigger when he went fuck it and decided to tell Emilia everything fully ready to die is because she forgets Rem as well. For all intents and purposes, THAT was Subaru's attempt at suicide.
As for the results. Sure, it results in Emilia's death instead, but now he knows that spilling the beans is not only a threat to him, but to everyone around him as well (which got me thinking, this could be his ultimate weapon as well. Stand in front of Betelgeuse and attempt to tell him about the respawn ability and see what happens). But, this mishap is regarding him spilling the beans, and not about whether the ability will trigger correctly or not. As shown, even after this point he is still intent on triggering his ability because he just cannot risk not saving Emilia. Only, I am not really sure why he didn't just immediately suicide. My best guess is, maybe he would eventually but the events lead to this before he could manage to do it. The guy was understandably still shaken after all.
Whether dying is smart thing to do or not is not important anymore, because Subaru CAN'T kill himself regardless how terrible things are happening around. Even if his death could solve everything and save everyone he still can't kill himself anymore.
sapphire9294
2016-07-26, 07:51
so which is it? he killed emilia and gained the ability to see betelgeuse invisible hands, or he finally received enough miasma from witch/rbd to see the invisible hands?
I think it was more like he died enough times that the shadow hands could manifest, which is how they killed Emilia. This in turn increased his miasma enough that now he can see the invisible hands.
So it's all a chain of events or something.
Yes, but that is case for all fiction. The rules and content are set by the author, the reader merely expriences it.Usually rules flow into each other and build upon one another. I won't call it bad writing to have randomness, but it's not true that all fiction involves randomness in the powers. The reader is empowered to judge the rules as BS if they don't get respected or sufficiently plausible explanation is given for the exceptions.
Having a sense of the rules is what makes some shows a lot more fun.
What is generally bad writing is when, with out any foreshadowing, convenient "everyone [except the audience] knew about" super power emerge. *coughsupermancough* Particularly terrible when said powers or rules are very cheap and with out consequence or effort (or any significance to the story). Nobody likes a story where it's clear the author isn't even trying.
This is a REAL story of what would actually happen if some random chump with no cheats got dumped into a fantasy world of characters with their own lives and personality. He'd die and accumulate a lot of emotional baggage. If you can't handle it then go read some other isekai harem cheat slave wish-fulfillment story with a main character who should just choke on a purple dildo.First of all, it's not "real" or "realistic," Subaru is an otaku sterotype at best.
(ignoring the fact Subaru does actually have plenty of cheats for a moment)
It appears I clearly have a lot more faith in "random chump with no cheats got dumped into a fantasy world" hence our differences. I see Subaru at best as the WORST someone can do in the given situation. He was particularly terrible this episode too.
And I understand you all want to argue mental sickness for anything he does wrong, and respect it's a valid angle to look at his character from, but then if that's the case I guess we should change the sales pitch of the series to: "random CRAZY mentally unstable and sick person with no cheats, knowledge of negotions or common sense (since he's sick) got dumped into a fantasy world" since that's all he's been for a while now. Stella should have just grabbed some poor homeless dude, it would have made everything until now a lot more plausible, since we wouldn't need to wave "mentally ill" to explain everything.
*coughsupermancough*
Jeez, that's the kind of thing bad writers bring up, when they can't come up with compelling arguments or motivations - or they simply cannot write. To me, there aren't bad characters, there are bad writers.
That's my take on it, anyway. :p
Usually rules flow into each other and build upon one another. I won't call it bad writing to have randomness, but it's not true that all fiction involves randomness in the powers. The reader is empowered to judge the rules as BS if they don't get respected or sufficiently plausible explanation is given for the exceptions.
Brandon Sanderson put it really eloquently with his three laws of magic (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Sanderson%27s_Laws_of_Magic)
1. An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.
2. Limitations > Power
3. Expand on what you have already, before you add something new.
Applehell
2016-07-26, 14:02
Usually rules flow into each other and build upon one another. I won't call it bad writing to have randomness, but it's not true that all fiction involves randomness in the powers. The reader is empowered to judge the rules as BS if they don't get respected or sufficiently plausible explanation is given for the exceptions.
Having a sense of the rules is what makes some shows a lot more fun.
What is generally bad writing is when, with out any foreshadowing, convenient "everyone [except the audience] knew about" super power emerge. *coughsupermancough* Particularly terrible when said powers or rules are very cheap and with out consequence or effort (or any significance to the story). Nobody likes a story where it's clear the author isn't even trying.
Yes, but those rules are still within author's right to define. He doesn't have to reavel all of them at once so it doesn't suddenly give anyone a blank check to call BS whenever their want. Especially since it's no fun knowing everything about a setting from the get go. It's common new concepts to be introduced as story progress and they don't all have related to old ones. So unless author makes something entirely for one super specific purpose (or it ends up unintentionally contradicting some previous established fact) and never expands or brings up it again feel to call him/her out on it, otherwise your the one who looks suspect. In the end you don't much about this world to make claims on what should be possible or not because it wasn't spoonfed randomly. There is a balance to these things.
If it's a particularly powerful ability, then it needs buildup. Either escalation of events in the story, foreshadowing, or something else to support it's arrival. The character can of course very easily just find the ability, but unless that happens at the start or the character was setup to be "searching" it gets into slap stick comedy territory.
Abilities are sometimes almost like silent characters, they have to fit everything else and the world, since readers will have expectations on where they came from; just like they have expectations of all characters having at least some backstory or "CV" even if its untold. How are you gonna write in Subaru accidentally finds the all powerful "Dildo of Invincibility Courage and Kindness" capable of destroying his enemies into anything interesting? How are you gonna even justify its existence.
Brandon Sanderson put it really eloquently with his three laws of magic (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Sanderson%27s_Laws_of_Magic)
1. An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.
2. Limitations > Power
3. Expand on what you have already, before you add something new.That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Applehell
2016-07-26, 14:31
If it's a particularly powerful ability, then it needs buildup. Either escalation of events in the story, foreshadowing, or something else to support it's arrival. The character can of course very easily just find the ability, but unless that happens at the start or the character was setup to be "searching" it gets into slap stick comedy territory.
Abilities are sometimes almost like silent characters, they have to fit everything else and the world, since readers will have expectations on where they came from; just like they have expecations of all characters having at least some backstory or "CV" even if its untold. How are you gonna write in Subaru accidentally finds the all powerful "Dildo of Invincibility Courage and Kindness" capable of destroying his enemies into anything interesting? How are you gonna even justify it's existance.
That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Not really. You can reavel an ability then define it's origins afterwards regardless of it's relative power. It's only bad writing when something is only introduced for the sake of it and doesn't connect to any aspect of the world either mechinacally or historically. This goes for anything in the setting. You have to remember, your essenitally following a foreginer in this world and you know only as much as he does for the most part. Nobody gonna do something ridiculously conivent like sitting down and explaining every little thing to him. Somethings he will encounter simply a upon by chance due to the entirely alien nature of the setting and that is entirely fair.
That said everything regarding the White Whale has been sublted hinted at one point. Paricularity the fact almost nobody has survived an encounter with it. You don't know how or why, but tells you enough to know it is extremely powerful at least until it appears to show exactly why that is the case.
BWTraveller
2016-07-26, 16:05
First of all, it's not "real" or "realistic," Subaru is an otaku sterotype at best.
(ignoring the fact Subaru does actually have plenty of cheats for a moment)
It appears I clearly have a lot more faith in "random chump with no cheats got dumped into a fantasy world" hence our differences. I see Subaru at best as the WORST someone can do in the given situation. He was particularly terrible this episode too.
And I understand you all want to argue mental sickness for anything he does wrong, and respect it's a valid angle to look at his character from, but then if that's the case I guess we should change the sales pitch of the series to: "random CRAZY mentally unstable and sick person with no cheats, knowledge of negotions or common sense (since he's sick) got dumped into a fantasy world" since that's all he's been for a while now. Stella should have just grabbed some poor homeless dude, it would have made everything until now a lot more plausible, since we wouldn't need to wave "mentally ill" to explain everything.
It's realistic because that's definitely the best you can expect from anyone in this situation. Anyone who rants about why someone should just throw their life away because X, even if X means he comes back to life, has clearly not known what it's like to be at death's door and know the terror involved in a traumatic death or near-death experience. Even experiencing this once would be enough to derail someone somewhat, but this guy has experienced it over and over again. You really think it's that easy to remain completely normal and sane after that level of trauma? He's not a "crazy mentally unstable person who got dumped into a fantasy world", he's a normal otaku guy who got dumped into a fantasy world and then dragged repeatedly through one hellish scenario after another until mentally he's hanging on a precipice, struggling to find a grip while some sadistic fate keeps putting more weights on his ankles.
And again I agree with what people had said, if Subaru did what you seem to think he should have done, he would seriously be sliding down a very dangerous slope toward sociopathy. You seem to want him to embrace the fact that with the current rules his life doesn't really matter due to the fact that he can come back, but the fact that he can bring others back by doing this makes everyone's life just as meaningless as his own. In other words, once he starts just killing himself the moment things go wrong it will stop mattering if anyone else dies a horrible death. And this will then push him further down the slope because he'll indifferently slice his own throat and start over any time something goes wrong, and his failure to struggle and fight against what's happening will result in him rebooting with really no more information than he previously had, and thus he'll wind up just going back over and over again randomly trying things with no clue what's going on until he stumbles by pure chance on something that works, but even then that won't matter to him because by that point nothing will matter since it's just another path that can be retread if he even has a breakfast he doesn't like. Not to mention that the discovery of a successful path will have far less value since he just randomly stumbled into it without even really caring much, rather than fighting to his last breath to try and find a way to do something.
<X-COM analogy>
Uhhh, you DO realise that this isn't a videogame, right? It's, uhh, "real life", so to speak. Rem isn't some videogame construct you choose to be attached to just because you wanted to do a no deaths run. Rem is a "living, breathing person", so to speak.
DemonneoPT
2016-07-26, 16:56
It's realistic because that's definitely the best you can expect from anyone in this situation. Anyone who rants about why someone should just throw their life away because X, even if X means he comes back to life, has clearly not known what it's like to be at death's door and know the terror involved in a traumatic death or near-death experience. Even experiencing this once would be enough to derail someone somewhat, but this guy has experienced it over and over again. You really think it's that easy to remain completely normal and sane after that level of trauma? He's not a "crazy mentally unstable person who got dumped into a fantasy world", he's a normal otaku guy who got dumped into a fantasy world and then dragged repeatedly through one hellish scenario after another until mentally he's hanging on a precipice, struggling to find a grip while some sadistic fate keeps putting more weights on his ankles.
Or the ones that call Subaru an "idiot/moron" are delusional about what they would be capable to do in the same situation or it's me, an average joe, that in fact is not that average at all but rather a really dumb person, because i think i would not be able to do half the things he has done till now if i was in his shoes...lol. I mean, sometimes i do not like some of the decisions/attitudes Subaru has, but i totally get why he acts like that given his background. I just think the criticism he gets is disproportionate to all his good deeds and suffering he went through.
And again I agree with what people had said, if Subaru did what you seem to think he should have done, he would seriously be sliding down a very dangerous slope toward sociopathy. You seem to want him to embrace the fact that with the current rules his life doesn't really matter due to the fact that he can come back, but the fact that he can bring others back by doing this makes everyone's life just as meaningless as his own. In other words, once he starts just killing himself the moment things go wrong it will stop mattering if anyone else dies a horrible death. And this will then push him further down the slope because he'll indifferently slice his own throat and start over any time something goes wrong, and his failure to struggle and fight against what's happening will result in him rebooting with really no more information than he previously had, and thus he'll wind up just going back over and over again randomly trying things with no clue what's going on until he stumbles by pure chance on something that works, but even then that won't matter to him because by that point nothing will matter since it's just another path that can be retread if he even has a breakfast he doesn't like. Not to mention that the discovery of a successful path will have far less value since he just randomly stumbled into it without even really caring much, rather than fighting to his last breath to try and find a way to do something.
We had recently another anime where some people could resurrect from the dead (Ajin) and the ones that were better used to it were the main villain, a cold blood killer and the protagonist, an apathetic teen who is even hated by his own family. A true sociopath in the making. That's what Subaru would probably become if he starts to disregard people at the very first thing that goes wrong and kills himself. So i totally agree to what you just said. Funny thing is, Re:Zero already gave some hints supporting the theory that at some point in time Subaru will become a villain (Pride). So i guess eventually, there is a chance he will become a sociopath because of everything that happened to him. I wonder how the majority of people would react to such situation :heh:
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-26, 17:51
Uhhh, you DO realise that this isn't a videogame, right? It's, uhh, "real life", so to speak. Rem isn't some videogame construct you choose to be attached to just because you wanted to do a no deaths run. Rem is a "living, breathing person", so to speak.
You do realize I wasn't taking that as a exact/literal comparison? You even used the word "analogy" yourself. It's enough that if I get the point across, but apparently I'm not as clear as I hoped I am. So can you understand what I meant to say in that post? Whether or not you agree with it I don't care, but do I get my point across?
Honest question, do you honestly not see his point or are you just maintaining your position so as to not "lose" the "debate"?
Because see, I don't think it's such a difficult viewpoint to comprehend. Suppose my X-Com soldiers are deep in a late game mission, stuck in a situation where somebody needs to die to get out of but I don't want any of them dead, because this is my attempt at a no-death iron man run, which I have been playing for over a month now, in between my busy work schedule. At this situation I would indeed restart instead of keep going, throwing a month of time away. Is this "giving up"? My stated goal is "no one dies" not "finish the run", so me restarting is staying true with that goal.
Keeping in line with this example, you and several others' position would be someone that: although his goal is indeed "no one dies" he keeps going on regardless. However, the next best thing to expect at this point is that it will be a bitter lesson to better his next attempt at a no-death iron man run. The goal itself is already impossible to achieve no matter how well he did at the next missions until he start a new run.
On that note, to be completely honest, I do not understand why Subaru shouted "I don't want to die" all snotty teary during his encounter with the whale, as if he forgot about his respawn ability (and why the hell didn't the whale finish him anyway?). I would think that a swift reset there would be considerably less painful on him rather than dragging on to a lingering painful dead-end, after which he went and begged someone to kill him anyways. Normal people with no respawn abilities IRL had and often chose to end their own lives in the face of despairing odds, but Subaru hasn't shown any signs of this and the one time he committed suicide was with a somewhat bright and hopeful tone.
He doesn't have a point.
Your video game analogy fails to illustrate the psychological and emotional aspects of the situation and our debate isn't applicable in this latest loop considering Subaru was in no sound state of mind to make such a rational decision.
What part of "people don't want to die" do you fail to understand? Rem was basically killed off-screen and out of sight, but he personally witnessed the death of Emilia so it was a much bigger shock for him. There are people who have the guts or warped mind to commit suicide, but how many pussies are there that end up calling a suicide hotline?
I find it much more admirable that he kept struggling to succeed after Rem died. Rather than giving up by committing suicide and resetting.
Plus, it's not like he has any other plan to succeed in the works.
Like I said, he wasn't right in the head at the time so let's not give him credit for that.
I would say that is still a better outcome than NOT trying to die early and found out later that the save point has been moved anyway, at which case Subaru will be undoubtedly driven with a massive guilt and regret "if only I died sooner". Someone else pointed this out already but on Subaru's mind scale, the possibility of his ability not triggering correctly probably doesn't weigh too much against the possibility of him saving the ones he love by restarting. It's Re:Zero's version of Pascal's Wager, in a pure risk vs benefit point, there is just too much benefit to be had in trying to restart than the risk of it not triggering correctly, and the risk of him not being able to save his loved ones should outweigh the benefits of being careful with his ability.
Case in point:
But he does know Rem is dead. The trigger when he went fuck it and decided to tell Emilia everything fully ready to die is because she forgets Rem as well. For all intents and purposes, THAT was Subaru's attempt at suicide.
As for the results. Sure, it results in Emilia's death instead, but now he knows that spilling the beans is not only a threat to him, but to everyone around him as well (which got me thinking, this could be his ultimate weapon as well. Stand in front of Betelgeuse and attempt to tell him about the respawn ability and see what happens). But, this mishap is regarding him spilling the beans, and not about whether the ability will trigger correctly or not. As shown, even after this point he is still intent on triggering his ability because he just cannot risk not saving Emilia. Only, I am not really sure why he didn't just immediately suicide. My best guess is, maybe he would eventually but the events lead to this before he could manage to do it. The guy was understandably still shaken after all.
Subaru indeed runs a risk of completing a loop with undesirable results if he doesn't reset immediately, but our point is that he is incapable in his current state of mind and it is not something he should do less he fall into sociopathy, which we have argued would be putting the cart before the horse.
He didn't kill himself because he didn't want to die. Why do think he begged and cried for someone else to do it?
And I understand you all want to argue mental sickness for anything he does wrong, and respect it's a valid angle to look at his character from, but then if that's the case I guess we should change the sales pitch of the series to: "random CRAZY mentally unstable and sick person with no cheats, knowledge of negotions or common sense (since he's sick) got dumped into a fantasy world" since that's all he's been for a while now. Stella should have just grabbed some poor homeless dude, it would have made everything until now a lot more plausible, since we wouldn't need to wave "mentally ill" to explain everything.
He's just been overwhelmed by everything he's experienced. He really needs to take an hour or day to process everything and come to terms.
Tenzen12
2016-07-26, 20:56
1) Hour or day is not enough
2) He has neither hour nor day to process everything even if it was.
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-26, 21:35
What part of "people don't want to die" do you fail to understand? ...
... but our point is that he is incapable in his current state of mind and it is not something he should do less he fall into sociopathy, which we have argued would be putting the cart before the horse.
The crux of why I cannot understand it is, because he actually committed suicide to save Rem before. Why isn't he capable of that anymore? Really, if that one problematic scene wasn't there I wouldn't have this doubt in the first place. (and probably others as well)
Also, by that same problematic scene, according to your other point, he's already fallen into sociopathy as well. This point I also have trouble understanding. An actual serial killer might find it easy to kill people, but might never bring himself to suicide. As such, even if Subaru become used to suicide, it doesn't necessarily mean he no longer holds his loved ones dear. Rather, I would argue that it would show that he holds their lives so important that his life weigh little in comparison. Rather than sociopathy, I'd call that altruism.
^
At that point in time, he managed to find the slightest bit of rationality left in him, and it still took all his courage to overcome human nature and commit suicide... Do you see anything rational in the way he behaves lately? He's far too broken to even consider the thought of ending his life earlt, even now that he wants to die is because of despair, not rational thinking (and even then instinct kicks in)
Also,repeteadly sacrificing you life for the wellbeing of others is not so altruistic if you know you can revive, if you are effectively inmortal and don't hold any regard whatsoever for your own life, your repeated sacrifice holds no weight, because it's not a sacrifice.
Triple_R
2016-07-27, 01:27
The crux of why I cannot understand it is, because he actually committed suicide to save Rem before. Why isn't he capable of that anymore?
Because here in this third arc, he's reached a psychological breaking point. The anime has made this abundantly clear, in my view. I'm not sure why some viewers have so much trouble with this.
Subaru used to crack lots of jokes, and come across as a guy who wanted to be the life of the party. When's the last time Subaru was like that? He's changed. A lot.
The fallout with Emilia rattled him very badly. Now combine that with severe trauma buildup due to repeated death and horror experiences (seeing the dead mutilated bodies of his friends, multiple times). Subaru is pretty much broken. He wasn't broken in the 2nd arc.
Now, it's fine to dislike this character development, but it's not nonsensical. Different people have different thresholds for what they can endure before they start breaking down - And Subaru passed his threshold 2 or 3 episodes back.
Hopefully Subaru will eventually bounce back from this, but I can understand it not being easy.
BladeMancer
2016-07-27, 01:38
^
At that point in time, he managed to find the slightest bit of rationality left in him, and it still took all his courage to overcome human nature and commit suicide... Do you see anything rational in the way he behaves lately? He's far too broken to even consider the thought of ending his life earlt, even now that he wants to die is because of despair, not rational thinking (and even then instinct kicks in)
Also,repeteadly sacrificing you life for the wellbeing of others is not so altruistic if you know you can revive, if you are effectively inmortal and don't hold any regard whatsoever for your own life, your repeated sacrifice holds no weight, because it's not a sacrifice.
You just hit bullseye my man.
zero7090
2016-07-27, 02:40
Are you seriously not understanding what he said?
Stop and think about it for a moment. How does "surviving it" lead to knowing what happened to the victims?
How would you learn its powers?
You don't even have any recollection of the victims ever existing in the first place. No one does.
Only victims you would remember are the ones that died but didn't get consumed out of existence, in which case, would not lead to knowing its powers.
Its powers are literally immune from being known to anyone other than anomalies like Subaru.
I have a feeling you're just not putting any thought into this.
Think about it for just 1 minute and you'll go "ooooooooh. DUH." and smack yourself in the forehead. :heh:
Since when i said him to find out what happen to the victim? I was telling him to find a way to pass the white whale so his carriage teams can evacuate the village people.
Do you even bother to think about how can main char go through this arc? He need to go back in 1 day time which mean he need to pass the whale. PASS, not kill or defeat it. The only thing he need to know is how to run/survive/hide from it.
BladeMancer
2016-07-27, 03:24
Since when i said him to find out what happen to the victim? I was telling him to find a way to pass the white whale so his carriage teams can evacuate the village people.
Do you even bother to think about how can main char go through this arc? He need to go back in 1 day time which mean he need to pass the whale. PASS, not kill or defeat it. The only thing he need to know is how to run/survive/hide from it.
There is also a flaw in that too. There is no literal way for Subaru and co to pass the whale unless they take the long way which makes them arrive during or after the witch cult attack and let me tell you the authority of sloth and the other authorities are no joke, you'd be surprised at what miezaru te actually does, and realise the slaughter of the village would happen quick. They have to go through the whale route to make it on time. Also the white whale is incredibly powerful...I'm betting the reason why people escape is because ithey have physical abilities or the whale just loses interest. I mean it's an existence eating white whale that can fly, so a specific way to escape probably doesn't exist
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-27, 04:39
The fallout with Emilia rattled him very badly.
Ah, that happened. I also argued at the time that her rejection was what shattered him completely. I wonder why I didn't connect that to this episode. I'm guessing I misinterpreted that cliffhanger when it showed Subaru's bloodshot glare. I thought that was a cue that he is now dead-determined to stop the tragedy "whatever the cost", and that his "broken" state of mind, even if not fully healed, is "on hold" after that loop. And this idea persisted all the way until that snotty teary scene with the whale, which struck me dumbfounded.
Also,repeteadly sacrificing you life for the wellbeing of others is not so altruistic if you know you can revive, if you are effectively inmortal and don't hold any regard whatsoever for your own life, your repeated sacrifice holds no weight, because it's not a sacrifice.
That is indeed a compelling point. On an emotional level, I find this idea rather agreeable. But, the cognitive side of my mind is still rather inquisitive, so let's explore this a bit more.
Let's start with this: why is it important for this sacrifice to have "weight"? What is it being weighed against? If at the end of this supposedly "weightless" road awaits the smiles and laughter of his loved ones, are those smiles and laughter "weightless" too? Let's also explore what exactly made this sacrifice hold no weight. Does simply being immortal overrides any weight of the sacrifices this man make? Let's take that famous quote "my only regret is that I have but one life to give for my country". If this man is actually immortal and can serve his cause indefinitely, does his efforts now hold no weight?
Triple_R
2016-07-27, 07:20
Ah, that happened. I also argued at the time that her rejection was what shattered him completely. I wonder why I didn't connect that to this episode. I'm guessing I misinterpreted that cliffhanger when it showed Subaru's bloodshot glare. I thought that was a cue that he is now dead-determined to stop the tragedy "whatever the cost", and that his "broken" state of mind, even if not fully healed, is "on hold" after that loop. And this idea persisted all the way until that snotty teary scene with the whale, which struck me dumbfounded.
I definitely can understand why you took that bloodshot glare cliffhanger that way. But what I think it really showcased was a change in Subaru's primary motivation.
In the first two arcs, Subaru's primary motivation was fondness/love of Emilia. He really was doing this primarily for her.
But the fallout with Emilia in this third arc has eroded a lot of that, at least for now. I think it first changed Subaru's primary motivation to wanting to prove himself, to wanting to prove his worth in the face of the way he was beat up and somewhat degraded early in this third arc. Then, after his encounter with Witch's forces, and Betelgeuse in particular, his main motivation changed again to that of pure white-hot revenge.
This is something Crusch picked up on in her last conversation with Subaru - That he seemed much more concerned with hurting the Witch's forces than he was with saving Emilia for her own sake. Perhaps Subaru is at his best when he's operating on more positive life-affirming motivations like wanting to help somebody he loves, and perhaps he's not as effective when he's operating on something more dark and negative like trying to get revenge on people he hates.
Excluding the fact that the main character gets resurrected back to a certain time when he dies, this show is super-repetitive - Subara tries to save the day, acts crazy around everyone and fails miserably at the end.
I'm also surprised after 17 episodes, and we still don't have a hint of what, why and how Subaru was transported into this world, and also why he doesn't seem to care one bit about it to try and go back to his world.
Excluding the fact that the main character gets resurrected back to a certain time when he dies, this show is super-repetitive
It's kind of the point? Repeating some of the actions, to change the outcome? :heh:
It's kind of the point? Repeating some of the actions, to change the outcome? :heh:
Done in a bad and boring way.
Triple_R
2016-07-27, 12:23
I'm also surprised after 17 episodes, and we still don't have a hint of what, why and how Subaru was transported into this world,
They've given us enough to speculate. At this point, it seems likely to me that the jealous Witch herself brought Subaru into this fantasy world. After all, he smells of the witch more and more after each "death". And then there's the way his literal heart was groped by that dark hand in this episode...
and also why he doesn't seem to care one bit about it to try and go back to his world.
It's maybe a little strange. Especially now. "F*ck it, I wanna go home!" would be a perfectly understandable feeling for Subaru to have at this point.
But I guess that Subaru's life back in his own world wasn't very fulfilling, so he's eagerly latched on to this alternate world that likely reminds him a lot of his favorite pieces of entertainment/fiction. Subaru is also now emotionally invested in this new world, and in some of its people, so there's some chance he might even be willing to spend the rest of his life there. Anyway, I'll take this extreme over the opposite extreme offered by Endride's male lead. :heh: In my opinion, there's no bigger buzzkill in an isekai story than a lead character that can't stop whining about wanting to go home.
It's kind of the point? Repeating some of the actions, to change the outcome? :heh:It is, but it's definitely been over-doing it lately. In some of the recent ones the outcome was almost identical too.
Also,repeteadly sacrificing you life for the wellbeing of others is not so altruistic if you know you can revive, if you are effectively inmortal and don't hold any regard whatsoever for your own life, your repeated sacrifice holds no weight, because it's not a sacrifice.Teachnically the argument is that Subaru is somehow afraid this is his last loop. Which, honestly, given the little to no changes that have happened in all of the times he's went back and forth, there's no real reason to believe that; but Subaru clearly does so nothing much we can do. Predominantly though, this sub-plot comes out more as Subaru being "bullied" by the world and subsequently running around like a headless chicken. You're gonna love it or hate it I guess.
In Subaru's circumstances I would think it would be more logical to be more afraid of not achieving anything, then the loops ending. There's definitely evidence of the curse being intentional and not accidental and the chances of whoever or whatever brought you to the world sending you back alive should you fail to meet their unknown objective are very low. What's experiencing death vs getting erased from existence in that case. I would also expect, realistically, a lot more focus on finding out about the curse you've been afflicted to, as opposed to chasing girls and running from death. Not that you should be seeking death, but maybe find allies and make some preliminary foundation into the world before flirting with every pretty girl on the street.
But that aside, getting back to his initial motivation for being afraid...
Strategically speaking the only difference the possibility of loops being finite brings, is you don't use strategies like "train for 1000 loops." Other then those the difference is very superficial, since any good efficient move in a non-finite loop system are still good moves in a finite system; you just have less resources to work with. If anything you should be tacking more risky strategies, and doing a lot more calculations, since in a finite loop you have less time and slowness is fatal.
He's just been overwhelmed by everything he's experienced. He really needs to take an hour or day to process everything and come to terms.
And I understand you all want to argue mental sickness for anything he does wrong, and respect it's a valid angle to look at his character from, but then if that's the case I guess we should change the sales pitch of the series to:
random impatient CRAZY mentally unstable and sick person
with no cheats, knowledge of negotions or common sense (since he's sick)
got dumped into a fantasy world to be overwhelmed
...since that's all he's been for a while now.
Better now? :heh:
The gist, I suppose, is that we would all like to see Subaru transforming from a victim to a hero in the next episodes. The most obvious way to accomplish that would be for him to adopt a rational and cold-blooded strategy in which he abuses his respawn power - but if another way exists that would be more in line with the perceived nature of the show and his character, that would be fine too. I just don't see what that would be, other than him getting insanely lucky and developing plot armor.
Done in a bad and boring way.
Yeah, that's your opinion. One I do not share, but that's okay, I guess?
@Jaden
I kind of expect (but certainly don't hope for it) that it will involve convenient "plot coincidence," with some minimal involvement from Subaru (probably negotiations since the show literally spelled it out for him by now) and probably some situation where Subaru does something that the show makes out as crazy—probably similar to the Ram throw that could have gone wrong in any number of ways.
Personally I just hope, whatever it is, it leads into some reveals of the world and some of the other characters.
Triple_R
2016-07-27, 13:13
Teachnically the argument is that Subaru is somehow afraid this is his last loop. Which, honestly, given the little to no changes that have happened in all of the times he's went back and forth, there's no real reason to believe that; but Subaru clearly does so nothing much we can do.
It's possible that Subaru perceives the White Whale has a major game-changer. The White Whale doesn't merely kill people, it completely wipes them from existence, even retroactively. At some level, Subaru might have reasoned this out from how his lone remaining companion no longer had any memory of Rem (and Ram later not remembering Rem hammered it home a lot, chances are). So getting killed by the White Whale is a very special and nasty sort of killing... could it possibly trump Subaru's time-loop ability?
Emilia instant-dying at Subaru trying to tell her about his time-loop ability might also get Subaru questioning the exact nature and limits of his ability. I can definitely understand doubts and worries seeping into his mind.
Granted, this is almost pure speculation on my part, but it does make sense to me. I'm willing to go with this if nothing else is offered up.
Applehell
2016-07-27, 14:04
It is, but it's definitely been over-doing it lately. In some of the recent ones the outcome was almost identical too.
We have only gone through 2 loops (now on the 3rd), which is less than what Arc 2 had which was 5. That is no way overdoing at least relative to the other two arcs. They have definitely not been identital either, sure we going over the same situation as standard of this genre, but content itself is different. You're confusing the fact this is a lengther arc with the amount of loops it actually has.
You do realize I wasn't taking that as a exact/literal comparison? You even used the word "analogy" yourself. It's enough that if I get the point across, but apparently I'm not as clear as I hoped I am. So can you understand what I meant to say in that post? Whether or not you agree with it I don't care, but do I get my point across?
Your analogy doesn't hold up because you're comparing throwaway fictional lives and throwaway fictional characters to "living breathing" people. He already has a hard time throwing his own life away, let alone the lives of others.
That is indeed a compelling point. On an emotional level, I find this idea rather agreeable. But, the cognitive side of my mind is still rather inquisitive, so let's explore this a bit more.
Let's start with this: why is it important for this sacrifice to have "weight"? What is it being weighed against? If at the end of this supposedly "weightless" road awaits the smiles and laughter of his loved ones, are those smiles and laughter "weightless" too? Let's also explore what exactly made this sacrifice hold no weight. Does simply being immortal overrides any weight of the sacrifices this man make? Let's take that famous quote "my only regret is that I have but one life to give for my country". If this man is actually immortal and can serve his cause indefinitely, does his efforts now hold no weight?
One, because of the storytelling, Subaru holds value in this story and makes it interesting precisely because he stills values his own life and that of others in spite of being able to loop, if the protagonist was a cold blooded guy that kills himself everytime something goes slightly wrong you're not watching a show, you're watching someone clear a videogame.
And for an in-universe reason, there's the fact that the curse has just been proved to actively hate Subaru and definitively willing to hamper his loop (this time, by getting the White Wale onto him, by killing Emilia), so there's reason to think that should he ever grow acostumed to suicide, the curse would punish him for it.
Teachnically the argument is that Subaru is somehow afraid this is his last loop. Which, honestly, given the little to no changes that have happened in all of the times he's went back and forth, there's no real reason to believe that; but Subaru clearly does so nothing much we can do. Predominantly though, this sub-plot comes out more as Subaru being "bullied" by the world and subsequently running around like a headless chicken. You're gonna love it or hate it I guess.
In Subaru's circumstances I would think it would be more logical to be more afraid of not achieving anything, then the loops ending. There's definitely evidence of the curse being intentional and not accidental and the chances of whoever or whatever brought you to the world sending you back alive should you fail to meet their unknown objective are very low. What's experiencing death vs getting erased from existence in that case. I would also expect, realistically, a lot more focus on finding out about the curse you've been afflicted to, as opposed to chasing girls and running from death. Not that you should be seeking death, but maybe find allies and make some preliminary foundation into the world before flirting with every pretty girl on the street.
But that aside, getting back to his initial motivation for being afraid...
Strategically speaking the only difference the possibility of loops being finite brings, is you don't use strategies like "train for 1000 loops." Other then those the difference is very superficial, since any good efficient move in a non-finite loop system are still good moves in a finite system; you just have less resources to work with. If anything you should be tacking more risky strategies, and doing a lot more calculations, since in a finite loop you have less time and slowness is fatal.
Better now? :heh:
Once again, that train of thought requires a sound state of mind, do you see Subaru anywhere close to a rational state of mind? He's operating nearly on instinct, and the prime instinct is selfpreservation, even if he on an intellectual level knows he can revive, that does not mean he's gonna get used to dying anytime soon. Yes, he has already commited suicide once, but back then he still had a bit of sanity left, and it still was probably the hardest thing he has had to do. Then there's the matter of the curse, that probably wouldn't take too kindly to Subaru actively exploiting it by commiting suicide anytime something goes wrong, and as this loop has proven, you don't want to provoke whoever is behind the curse.
DemonneoPT
2016-07-27, 15:23
It is, but it's definitely been over-doing it lately. In some of the recent ones the outcome was almost identical too.
We have only gone through 2 loops (now on the 3rd), which is less than what Arc 2 had which was 5. That is no way overdoing at least relative to the other two arcs. They have definitely not been identital either, sure we going over the same situation as standard of this genre, but content itself is different. You're confusing the fact this is a lengther arc with the amount of loops it actually has.
Yep, and people seem to forget that althought the outcome was the same, new information was added to the story in the last episodes. And it definitely was not boring to see. Episodes 15 and 17 were actually my personal favorites. The ammount of emotions and wtf moments i experienced were too damn high!
moridin84
2016-07-27, 17:31
What I find weird is that Subaru never seems to consider giving up. I don't mean committing suicide, I might not going to the mansion. Live happily ever after with Rem.
One, because of the storytelling, Subaru holds value in this story and makes it interesting precisely because he stills values his own life and that of others in spite of being able to loop, if the protagonist was a cold blooded guy that kills himself everytime something goes slightly wrong you're not watching a show, you're watching someone clear a videogame.
Yeah, this.
I don't think there are many stories which involve the main character looping dozens of time through the same time period it order to "get it right". It's normally limited to a few times. Since that's kind of boring. Excepting Groundhog day obviously.
Yep, and people seem to forget that althought the outcome was the same, new information was added to the story in the last episodes. And it definitely was not boring to see. Episodes 15 and 17 were actually my personal favorites. The ammount of emotions and wtf moments i experienced were too damn high!
It's just a matter of pacing. For you the pace is good, for other's the pace is too slow.
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-27, 17:34
And for an in-universe reason, there's the fact that the curse has just been proved to actively hate Subaru and definitively willing to hamper his loop (this time, by getting the White Wale onto him, by killing Emilia), so there's reason to think that should he ever grow acostumed to suicide, the curse would punish him for it.
Can we be sure this is actually what happened? Way I see it, we still can't rule out that what happened with that hand was how it would always work automatically. The assumption that he will be killed by the hand if he tries to spill the beans was only told to us through Subaru, and it's very likely that he assumed wrong. I even said before that I actually think that Emilia's death is a hint that he might be able use this as an offensive tool, perhaps similar to how Betelgeuse used his unseen hands. As for the whale, I don't think the curse was somehow actively calling it either, the whale is merely attracted to the witch's smell the way the beast dogs were. That's been how it always worked and at the time with the beast dogs, this aspect even helped him.
Your analogy doesn't hold up because you're comparing throwaway fictional lives and throwaway fictional characters to "living breathing" people. He already has a hard time throwing his own life away, let alone the lives of others.
I guess I really was not clear enough then. The point of the example isn't that somehow their lives are comparable, and let's just forget all of that altogether if it offends you somehow. That example was to illustrate the point that just because he restarted midway on his own terms (ie, suicide), doesn't mean that he is giving up on saving them. It's just one possible approach in completing Subaru's goal of saving everyone, which you may or may not agree with. Different people holds different values on different things, dismissing them entirely out of hand is intellectually dishonest and does not make for a good discussion.
Akito Kinomoto
2016-07-27, 18:06
Except the cursed hands have displayed sentience, and considering it's the same kind of hands as the cult's, doubtful the witch leaves such a loophole or indeed goes along with it as an offensive measure. The way hands behaved when he was resolved to die is not something that would be shown for no reason
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-27, 18:25
Except the cursed hands have displayed sentience, and considering it's the same kind of hands as the cult's, doubtful the witch leaves such a loophole or indeed goes along with it as an offensive measure. The way hands behaved when he was resolved to die is not something that would be shown for no reason
I would have to say I have trouble seeing this sentience. Besides, it is still just a conjecture so I can't say my idea with much certainty either. There is still too much mystery in how the witch, the curse and the cult connects with each other. Why are the demon beasts attracted and display aggression to the witch's smell? Why would the cult that worships the witch seemingly not care about Emilia which resembles the witch? Why does the witch grant Subaru this ability in the first place? They all seem to be at a deadlock rather than being on the same side despite them all being centered around the witch.
Akito Kinomoto
2016-07-27, 18:32
I would have to say I have trouble seeing this sentience. Besides, it is still just a conjecture so I can't say with much certainty either. There is still too much mystery in how the witch, the curse and the cult connects with each other. Why are the demon beasts attracted and display aggression to the witch's smell? Why would the cult that worships the witch seemingly not care about Emilia which resembles the witch? Why does the witch grant Subaru this ability in the first place? They all seem to be at a deadlock rather than being on the same side despite being centered around the witch.
Calling it conjecture also undermines the possibility of using it offensively. AFAWK there's no deadlock because Emilia is still a character shrouded in mystery and combined with any connection to the Witch the whole picture is still clouded
BWTraveller
2016-07-27, 18:32
Teachnically the argument is that Subaru is somehow afraid this is his last loop. Which, honestly, given the little to no changes that have happened in all of the times he's went back and forth, there's no real reason to believe that; but Subaru clearly does so nothing much we can do. Predominantly though, this sub-plot comes out more as Subaru being "bullied" by the world and subsequently running around like a headless chicken. You're gonna love it or hate it I guess.
Have we been watching the same show or did I just miss those comments? I don't recall any significant argument to suggest he thinks he's going to die permanently or anything of that sort. Some people have speculated that it might be his last due to the fact that it took him this many loops the last two times, but that has nothing to do with why he's been going crazy. Again, I can only assume that you have absolutely no appreciation of the horror that Subaru has gone through over and over again. You'd be lucky if you were as sane as he is after that many violent and disturbing deaths, not to mention all the deaths he witnessed and times he found himself powerless to stop anything.
In Subaru's circumstances I would think it would be more logical to be more afraid of not achieving anything, then the loops ending. There's definitely evidence of the curse being intentional and not accidental and the chances of whoever or whatever brought you to the world sending you back alive should you fail to meet their unknown objective are very low. What's experiencing death vs getting erased from existence in that case. I would also expect, realistically, a lot more focus on finding out about the curse you've been afflicted to, as opposed to chasing girls and running from death. Not that you should be seeking death, but maybe find allies and make some preliminary foundation into the world before flirting with every pretty girl on the street.
He's been doing exactly that, searching for allies to help him. And he'd been shown on several occasions trying to gain knowledge, but everywhere he turns he finds it's almost immediately obvious that he's scarcely going to get anything. And he doesn't know that much about diplomacy so it stands to figure that right now he'd be trying to get to know people in the only ways he knows how, which is grandstanding and making a fool of himself, and trying to pursue his love because he doesn't want to miss a chance and lose her because he thought he'd fail again.
But that aside, getting back to his initial motivation for being afraid...
Strategically speaking the only difference the possibility of loops being finite brings, is you don't use strategies like "train for 1000 loops." Other then those the difference is very superficial, since any good efficient move in a non-finite loop system are still good moves in a finite system; you just have less resources to work with. If anything you should be tacking more risky strategies, and doing a lot more calculations, since in a finite loop you have less time and slowness is fatal.
Better now? :heh:
Again, I haven't heard that much argument to suggest that there's really any concern about not coming back anymore. He was probably concerned about that at first, but at this point it seems more like he just doesn't want to die again. After this many loops it'd be pretty understandable to just assume it's going to continue, but again you constantly seem to be treating the experience of dying as if it's nothing. It's not nothing to him, it's still a terrifying thing, so very many times more due to the fact that he knows just how painful, terrifying, and simply WRONG it feels to die, as well as how much it hurts to go back again full of vital knowledge that he can't get anyone to believe. And as several people have pointed out, if he did become indifferent to all of this he would almost certainly become a real monster, because if the loop renders his own life or death meaningless, along with any pain he experiences, then the same thing is true of anyone else's. Once he stops caring about death, he won't simply start killing himself to reboot, he'll stop having any real concern when his friends are killed, or when they're hurt, because that just means he's going to have to go over it again. He could even start to throw away loops, doing crazy, pointless or even cruel things to relieve stress without any concern about how his action or inaction is affecting others since they're all going to go back again anyway.
I wonder if the whale ability works both ways.
If it dies, does everyone come back or get remembered? Would be interesting if suddenly the kingdom has a whole bunch of new people, especially when most of the brave idiots who faced the whale are probably all heroes.
Also almost forgot about it, but I have a feeling the tree is the problem not the whale. Checking the episode again, Flugel's tree was the name. Don't know if it's due to animation or its meant to hint anything but the tree practically pops into existence as they go near; given it's as high as mountains its strange it would be invisible when mountains behind it aren't. It's also convenient how the whale happens to appear right as they see the tree.
It's just a matter of pacing. For you the pace is good, for other's the pace is too slow.Second this.
Have we been watching the same show or did I just miss those comments?So you didn't read into that "problem" of his and still are so concerned for his "well" being and so called reasoning?
People's concern for the ONLY character that is guaranteed to come back when he dies sure is baffling. I mean he's forever safe if nothing else due to plot armor, and should he die the series has to end.
Compare that to every other character, which from a certain perspective on time loops legitimately die each time—and it goes with out saying they have the chance to permanently die. But it's not cool to pity them right?
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-27, 18:55
And as several people have pointed out, if he did become indifferent to all of this he would almost certainly become a real monster, because if the loop renders his own life or death meaningless, along with any pain he experiences, then the same thing is true of anyone else's.
And several other people has also pointed out that it isn't such a definite thing. He might become a monster, but he might also not become a monster, he might even become something else entirely. And even if he did become a monster, who knows, it might also be an interesting story to see how he would redeem himself afterwards.
That is indeed a compelling point. On an emotional level, I find this idea rather agreeable. But, the cognitive side of my mind is still rather inquisitive, so let's explore this a bit more.
Let's start with this: why is it important for this sacrifice to have "weight"? What is it being weighed against? If at the end of this supposedly "weightless" road awaits the smiles and laughter of his loved ones, are those smiles and laughter "weightless" too? Let's also explore what exactly made this sacrifice hold no weight. Does simply being immortal overrides any weight of the sacrifices this man make? Let's take that famous quote "my only regret is that I have but one life to give for my country". If this man is actually immortal and can serve his cause indefinitely, does his efforts now hold no weight?
Sacrifice, by definition, holds weight. It is a sacred act in which one willingly gives up something they cherish and value for the sake of another. It's weight is derived from one's desire not to relinquish that something, but doing so in spite of it.
That weightless road demands he no longer care about said smiles and laughter. It requires him to cut off the emotional bonds he has with them so at the end what value do those smiles and laughter hold for him?
His death in this latest loop was not sacrifice. He wanted someone else to kill him because he couldn't bear to do it himself.
Subaru is not immortal. An immortal would never experience death. Subaru does and like any other living thing he doesn't want to die. His suicide in the second arc was indeed an act of sacrifice with great weight filled with his resolve against great uncertainty as to whether he would return. He did not want to die, but willingly did so to save Rem.
Can we be sure this is actually what happened? Way I see it, we still can't rule out that what happened with that hand was how it would always work automatically. The assumption that he will be killed by the hand if he tries to spill the beans was only told to us through Subaru, and it's very likely that he assumed wrong. I even said before that I actually think that Emilia's death is a hint that he might be able use this as an offensive tool, perhaps similar to how Betelgeuse used his unseen hands. As for the whale, I don't think the curse was somehow actively calling it either, the whale is merely attracted to the witch's smell the way the beast dogs were. That's been how it always worked and at the time with the beast dogs, this aspect even helped him.
I guess I really was not clear enough then. The point of the example isn't that somehow their lives are comparable, and let's just forget all of that altogether if it offends you somehow. That example was to illustrate the point that just because he restarted midway on his own terms (ie, suicide), doesn't mean that he is giving up on saving them. It's just one possible approach in completing Subaru's goal of saving everyone, which you may or may not agree with. Different people holds different values on different things, dismissing them entirely out of hand is intellectually dishonest and does not make for a good discussion.
Why do we assume the hands work under some rule? I think it's clear that the Witch can just strangle him and kill the people close to him whenever she wants.
Uuh, yes it is. You're restarting because you've deemed that it's no longer possible to save everyone. That's giving up.
You and felix have cited Subaru's heroic suicide in arc 2 to justify killing himself willy nilly, but the difference between that act of bravery and your recommended course of action is that Subaru was motivated by his love whereas yours results in him abandoning that love. With no detailed explanation or guarantees about his ability, Subaru can't even be sure if he'll return from death. One loop he may find himself permanently dead. He has to live every loop as if it was his last, dying of his own volition only when his love for another demands he can no longer live on.
And several other people has also pointed out that it isn't such a definite thing. He might become a monster, but he might also not become a monster, he might even become something else entirely. And even if he did become a monster, who knows, it might also be an interesting story to see how he would redeem himself afterwards.
That isn't worth the risk.
Can we be sure this is actually what happened? Way I see it, we still can't rule out that what happened with that hand was how it would always work automatically. The assumption that he will be killed by the hand if he tries to spill the beans was only told to us through Subaru, and it's very likely that he assumed wrong. I even said before that I actually think that Emilia's death is a hint that he might be able use this as an offensive tool, perhaps similar to how Betelgeuse used his unseen hands. As for the whale, I don't think the curse was somehow actively calling it either, the whale is merely attracted to the witch's smell the way the beast dogs were. That's been how it always worked and at the time with the beast dogs, this aspect even helped him.
I guess I really was not clear enough then. The point of the example isn't that somehow their lives are comparable, and let's just forget all of that altogether if it offends you somehow. That example was to illustrate the point that just because he restarted midway on his own terms (ie, suicide), doesn't mean that he is giving up on saving them. It's just one possible approach in completing Subaru's goal of saving everyone, which you may or may not agree with. Different people holds different values on different things, dismissing them entirely out of hand is intellectually dishonest and does not make for a good discussion.
If the hands of the curse caresing Subaru right before they kill Emilia as a punishment for his resolve to tell the truth even if it costed him his life is not a proof of sentience, then I don't know what it is.
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-27, 20:09
Subaru is not immortal. An immortal would never experience death.
Subaru is immortal. There are multiple types of immortality.
And I guess ultimately we just think differently in this case. I don't believe that supposedly weightless road "necessitates" him to cut off all emotional ties to the ones he loves. The only time I can regard this road as weightless is when it ultimately doesn't end in those smiles and laughter, but that isn't a predetermined course.
add: to say it in another way, I think ultimately the one giving weight to his efforts isn't himself, me, or you, but the people who benefit from his efforts.
Why do we assume the hands work under some rule? I think it's clear that the Witch can just strangle him and kill the people close to him whenever she wants.
Because all this time, it's been portrayed as something that works automatically. Subaru was using the hand in his heart as he damn pleased during the beast dog fights. Why would the witch goes along with him then? Well, I don't think she did, it's just how the hand works.
Uuh, yes it is. You're restarting because you've deemed that it's no longer possible to save everyone. That's giving up.
No, the only time when I give up is when I am no longer restarting, despite still not having achieved that no death run. In Subaru's case, this would be akin to when he decides to fuck it and runs away from Rem and Emilia and the village and everything.
BWTraveller
2016-07-27, 20:23
So you didn't read into that "problem" of his and still are so concerned for his "well" being and so called reasoning?
People's concern for the ONLY character that is guaranteed to come back when he dies sure is baffling. I mean he's forever safe if nothing else due to plot armor, and should he die the series has to end.
Compare that to every other character, which from a certain perspective on time loops legitimately die each time—and it goes with out saying they have the chance to permanently die. But it's not cool to pity them right?
I was talking, as you may have noticed from what part of your quote that was for, about the way you seem to be trying to make Subaru's panic and the situation as a whole into a question of whether he can still go back. I felt like it was obvious that his personal actions had nothing to do with a suspicion that he couldn't go back, but rather the obvious problem that's been hitting him harder and harder: the painful, terrifying and disturbing experience of dying and the equally horrible experience of then waking up knowing what's waiting for everyone but having to struggle to convince them.
And to Erneiz hyde, I know several have expressed doubts, but I have trouble buying it. There are certainly situations in which a person could become completely indifferent to his own life or death and remain a good human being, but the reason Subaru has for disregarding his life works for all lives and everything that happens to everyone as well. If it was only his life that lost meaning, then certainly he could embrace this and remain a good guy because he still cares about everyone else's life. But here if his life loses all meaning because he can reset, then EVERYONE'S life loses meaning, and it doesn't even matter what happens to them. If he embraces the reset power, then all of it will lose meaning. Even if one of the girls were to be tortured in the most horrible ways imaginable, who cares? It's not like this has any effect on her once he resets the clock. It has no meaning at all. As a result, anything bad that happens ceases to be "how could this happen" and instead becomes "crap, guess I gotta reboot again". That level of indifference for people's lives and happiness would indeed make him a monster. True, there's no absolute guarantee, but it's still a very big risk and even if he could get past the most certainly huge fear he'd probably still be very smart to try and avoid taking death so lightly. Not to mention that, as I've said before, simply going back once things go wrong, or dismissing a given world as a dead end and giving up, would have a terrible effect on his future (loops included). Whether he kills himself or just gives up and waits to die, once he gives up he's not going to be paying much attention to things. That will result in him not noticing things and not digging out clues that could be vital to finding a way around the situation. Right now, he's desperately fighting tooth and nail to the very last moment, and as a result he's learning more and more about the situation every time. If he started to just give up, all he'd have left is random chance that something he tries will accidentally work, by which point he could be effectively several years or even decades older.
Subaru is immortal. There are multiple types of immortality.
And I guess ultimately we just think differently in this case. I don't believe that supposedly weightless road "necessitates" him to cut off all emotional ties to the ones he loves. The only time I can regard this road as weightless is when it ultimately doesn't end in those smiles and laughter, but that isn't a predetermined course.
Because all this time, it's been portrayed as something that works automatically. Subaru was using the hand in his heart as he damn pleased during the beast dog fights. Why would the witch goes along with him then? Well, I don't think she did, it's just how the hand works.
No, the only time when I give up is when I am no longer restarting, despite still not having achieved that no death run. In Subaru's case, this would be akin to when he decides to fuck it and runs away from Rem and Emilia and the village and everything.
im·mor·tal
i(m)ˈmôrdl/
adjective
1. living forever; never dying or decaying.
It doesn't matter what kind of immortality you're talking about. Subaru, along with every living thing, is not just afraid of the pain that precedes death, but death itself. Pain is something you feel when you're alive. Death is a whole other can of worms.
The road is not weightless because of the results. It's weightless because it didn't cost you anything physically and emotionally.
Automatically? How do you know it wasn't manual? The witch is clearly intent on making sure Subaru keeps his mouth shut about his power. She stopped him then because he was going to talk about it. It didn't matter if he was just using it to his advantage. The difference now was he was intent on talking about it in spite of the pain so she had to take more drastic measures. In this case killing the witnesses. It's not like she's got anything better to do being sealed and all.
Triple_R
2016-07-27, 21:32
I wonder if the whale ability works both ways.
If it dies, does everyone come back or get remembered? Would be interesting if suddenly the kingdom has a whole bunch of new people, especially when most of the brave idiots who faced the whale are probably all heroes.
Also almost forgot about it, but I have a feeling the tree is the problem not the whale. Checking the episode again, Flugel's tree was the name. Don't know if it's due to animation or its meant to hint anything but the tree practically pops into existence as they go near; given it's as high as mountains its strange it would be invisible when mountains behind it aren't. It's also convenient how the whale happens to appear right as they see the tree.
That's very interesting speculation, to your credit.
Killing the whale having this sort of "whole bunch of new people coming back" effect could make for a dramatic plot twist and signify a massive turnaround for the plot.
I also think you might be on to something with the tree being the problem, especially if the tree is in fact connected to the whale (the tree grows bigger with each person ate/killed by the whale, maybe?). If you cut down the tree, maybe that solves some serious problems.
As for caring about characters other than Subaru - I care a lot about Rem. She's my favorite character in this show. I also like Ram. I like Reinhard a lot (though I find it odd how he's supporting someone as crazy as Felt seems to be :heh:). I generally find the Royal Selection candidates to be interesting and/or entertaining. There's no character I dislike except, perhaps, those I'm meant to dislike.
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-27, 21:38
Automatically? How do you know it wasn't manual? The witch is clearly intent on making sure Subaru keeps his mouth shut about his power. She stopped him then because he was going to talk about it. It didn't matter if he was just using it to his advantage. The difference now was he was intent on talking about it in spite of the pain so she had to take more drastic measures. In this case killing the witnesses. It's not like she's got anything better to do being sealed and all.
I don't claim to know anything on this. I am speculating based on what I see. And so far, I haven't seen enough to refute this speculation beyond any reasonable doubt, but I wouldn't mind if the show proved me wrong later. You are not wrong in thinking that the witch might actually control the hand in his heart, and I am not outright denying that she might, I am just open to other possibilities.
DemonneoPT
2016-07-27, 23:34
People's concern for the ONLY character that is guaranteed to come back when he dies sure is baffling. I mean he's forever safe if nothing else due to plot armor, and should he die the series has to end.
I think no one is concerned with Subaru's life given his Return by Death ability. His mental state and personality-wise, however, is the real issue. The last episodes explored just that and i really think this will be important for some sick plot-twist in the future regarding his character development. Plus, Subaru himself had the same idea as you Felix, when he proudly said he could "fix" everything and make any problem disappear because of his special skill, however, when the situation really demanded it, like when he arrived at the village/mansion and everyone was dead, he quickly regretted his previous though and fate as seen in the beginning of the episode 15. Clearly it's not easy for him (for now at least), so his decision to go on until the timeline is really fucked up and expressing fear is completely understandable. That is not being a coward. It's being a human and i like this realism in his character! It's also the author's way to give some challenge to Subaru because his power would be way too OP in a Lelouch-like character..lol
I feel like some of the people here haven't yet recognise just how big of a task it is to prevent a massacre like that.
When Subaru jumped in ep7, he had a clear plan: "convince Rem through his own actions that he's trustworthy".
Here, upon the sight of such brutality, he is powerless. It's not something that he can fix alone. He cannot be the hero like back in ep2 where he persuaded Rem and charge into the woods himself. He needs an army, yet he has no idea where to get them, at least at that time.
If you really have to metagaming as part of the audience, yes as long as his story continues he will still be alive, but that's completely missing the pictures. Also, to completely relying on the curse for every single thing is basically hides himself into a shell. If anything goes wrong, he will just kill himself. It's a cheese strat at the very worst. Would that provide any room for character progression? I highly doubt it
Applehell
2016-07-28, 00:37
Because all this time, it's been portrayed as something that works automatically. Subaru was using the hand in his heart as he damn pleased during the beast dog fights. Why would the witch goes along with him then? Well, I don't think she did, it's just how the hand works.
It really hasn't though, at least not with any actual proof. We have only seen it stop him from speaking about RbD and revive him., but neither actions are inherently automatic. It it was always possible Satella has been watching Subaru herself the entire time.
Because all this time, it's been portrayed as something that works automatically. Subaru was using the hand in his heart as he damn pleased during the beast dog fights. Why would the witch goes along with him then? Well, I don't think she did, it's just how the hand works.
good reminder, probably why she decided to switch target this time round. Also remember that back then it's just to lure it out without committing fully, now the complete phrase has been said.
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-28, 02:17
I feel like some of the people here haven't yet recognise just how big of a task it is to prevent a massacre like that.
If you are referring to us people that argued that he should just restart, then you're misunderstanding. I'd argue it's precisely because we recognize that this task before him is not something that can be solved simply by "braving it through the bitter end". The complete requirement is very strict and the window very narrow. The notion that by keeping on will definitely give him better chance to learn what happened to him and his surrounding, thus better odds at dealing with the problem, is largely because we know beforehand this is fiction and bound by fiction rules (you noted character progression, which is one of them). Indeed, restarting until he can figure out how to earn the trust of all the other candidates and enlist their help isn't exactly an engaging story, the same way how it would be boring if the save point this time is before the fallout with Emilia so he can redo it, or back then if Subaru had died before Rem went into the forest alone to help him, so on and so forth. In actuality, I think keeping on even though he's so unprepared carries a greater risk to his mental health deteriorating even faster (which is exactly what's happening now) and thus lower the odds of him ever succeeding. In addition, there is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that he will be able to find new helpful clues even if he brave it through the bitter end, none outside our fiction rules.
Akito Kinomoto
2016-07-28, 02:26
I don't know why people are hung up on Subaru's morality, least anyone forget character development doesn't necessarily have to be a "good" thing. He could clear his head and realize this isn't the way to do things, or this could be the understandable rise of a tragic villain
It better be Rem he burns the world down with just in case
BWTraveller
2016-07-28, 05:56
If you are referring to us people that argued that he should just restart, then you're misunderstanding. I'd argue it's precisely because we recognize that this task before him is not something that can be solved simply by "braving it through the bitter end". The complete requirement is very strict and the window very narrow. The notion that by keeping on will definitely give him better chance to learn what happened to him and his surrounding, thus better odds at dealing with the problem, is largely because we know beforehand this is fiction and bound by fiction rules (you noted character progression, which is one of them). Indeed, restarting until he can figure out how to earn the trust of all the other candidates and enlist their help isn't exactly an engaging story, the same way how it would be boring if the save point this time is before the fallout with Emilia so he can redo it, or back then if Subaru had died before Rem went into the forest alone to help him, so on and so forth. In actuality, I think keeping on even though he's so unprepared carries a greater risk to his mental health deteriorating even faster (which is exactly what's happening now) and thus lower the odds of him ever succeeding. In addition, there is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that he will be able to find new helpful clues even if he brave it through the bitter end, none outside our fiction rules.
It's hard to say really. But one thing I can say, when trying to figure out a situation and change it, more information is almost always advantageous. It might add weight to him as you said, but not doing it is driving blind, relying on nothing but your knowledge of what things look like up to the first point it went downhill. That's a limited knowledge base to work from. As long as he continues to reel in crazed panic like he's been doing the additional knowledge won't do him any good and indeed might hinder him further, but I find it rather unlikely that he'll be able to get out of this in such a desperate state anyway, so unless he fails completely somehow I think he's likely to find at least some grounding he can use to get back to his feet, at which point yes the additional knowledge will indeed help him. All that said, he's certainly not in a state to think that thoroughly right now. For the most part, as others have said, he seems to be running mostly on desperation, impulse and instinct.
As for caring about characters other than Subaru - I care a lot about Rem. She's my favorite character in this show. I also like Ram. I like Reinhard a lot (though I find it odd how he's supporting someone as crazy as Felt seems to be :heh:). I generally find the Royal Selection candidates to be interesting and/or entertaining. There's no character I dislike except, perhaps, those I'm meant to dislike.I pretty much like every other character (other then Subaru), they're alright. If I were to order them maybe top 5 in no particular order Reinhard/Crusch/Betelgeuse/TheCurse/Pack (have some doubts on curse being Stella or even really a time loop curse after the recent episodes). Followed by the "why aren't you be involved more in the plot" characters Julius/Mimi/Beatrice/Emilia/Ram followed by lower down the "dunno why I like you" character Anastasia/Rem/Felix/Felt. If I missed ones *coughpriscillacough* probably don't care enough for their involvement.
Even if I like most of the cast, the world itself feels like it's a bit wasted on the plot around them. None of them feel like they could carry the show if the spotlight shifted to them. Well, maybe Ram, Crush or "TheCurse."
The plot, on the other hand, while interesting feels like it's not being kind to the characters. The looping essentially means we're repeating the same character development moments over and over, maybe slightly differently. So if your name isn't Subaru, even if you might appear episode after episode your character development is either stagnant or (if you're the victim of loop-cheats) a bit extreme. (Unfortunately Subaru manages to achieve the same development even with out the handicap)
I guess I really was not clear enough then. The point of the example isn't that somehow their lives are comparable, and let's just forget all of that altogether if it offends you somehow. That example was to illustrate the point that just because he restarted midway on his own terms (ie, suicide), doesn't mean that he is giving up on saving them. It's just one possible approach in completing Subaru's goal of saving everyone, which you may or may not agree with. Different people holds different values on different things, dismissing them entirely out of hand is intellectually dishonest and does not make for a good discussion.
We can't "forget all of that altogether". The fact that these are living, breathing people, and not just game constructs, is exactly the reason why he is unable to throw away his life or those of others.
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-28, 13:03
We can't "forget all of that altogether". The fact that these are living, breathing people, and not just game constructs, is exactly the reason why he is unable to throw away his life or those of others.
I meant the analogy itself.
Incest Emblem
2016-07-28, 16:28
On the subject of the hands:
When was the last time that Subaru managed to talk about his situation--deliberately, unintelligibly, or obliquely--without the hands stopping him?
In the first arc, Subaru managed to drop incoherent lines about coming from another world and dying.
In the second arc and beginning of the third arc when Subaru tried to tell others about his situation, the hands stopped him.
Now, when Subaru tried to tell Emilia about his situation, the hands killed Emilia.
We have thus far assumed this is because the hands react differently depending on the likelihood of someone understanding and how far Subaru would go to supply information. In other words, Subaru could drop incoherent lines, because no one would understand him. But he cannot tell someone about his situation. And if he tries to brave through the ordeal of the terror of the hands, the hands would kill the would be listener rather than frighten Subaru.
But perhaps there is another explanation? What if the progression we have seen is not the result of different reaction to external stimuli? Would Rem really have understood him if he started talking about his situation while being chased by the dogs in the forest? What if the reason we see this progression is because as the witch's power grows stronger about Subaru, the hands get more powerful and can affect more things?
In other words, Subaru would talk about his situation at first because the hands were not yet strong enough to stop him. Then, after dying a number of times, the hands grew strong enough to strike fear into him. And now, they are strong enough to kill others around him.
I'd argue that ramblings that no one can ever take seriously don't really count.
I meant the analogy itself.
But then you'd also have to abandon your argument as to why it's strange that he's not killing himself.
erneiz_hyde
2016-07-28, 16:40
But then you'd also have to abandon your argument as to why it's strange that he's not killing himself.
The analogy was to illustrate that killing yourself midway is not giving up. As for why I found it strange he didn't kill himself, that one was resolved with my conversation with Triple R.
On the subject of the hands:
When was the last time that Subaru managed to talk about his situation--deliberately, unintelligibly, or obliquely--without the hands stopping him?
In the first arc, Subaru managed to drop incoherent lines about coming from another world and dying.
In the second arc and beginning of the third arc when Subaru tried to tell others about his situation, the hands stopped him.
Now, when Subaru tried to tell Emilia about his situation, the hands killed Emilia.
We have thus far assumed this is because the hands react differently depending on the likelihood of someone understanding and how far Subaru would go to supply information. In other words, Subaru could drop incoherent lines, because no one would understand him. But he cannot tell someone about his situation. And if he tries to brave through the ordeal of the terror of the hands, the hands would kill the would be listener rather than frighten Subaru.
But perhaps there is another explanation? What if the progression we have seen is not the result of different reaction to external stimuli? Would Rem really have understood him if he started talking about his situation while being chased by the dogs in the forest? What if the reason we see this progression is because as the witch's power grows stronger about Subaru, the hands get more powerful and can affect more things?
In other words, Subaru would talk about his situation at first because the hands were not yet strong enough to stop him. Then, after dying a number of times, the hands grew strong enough to strike fear into him. And now, they are strong enough to kill others around him.
The hands don't care whether anyone knows he came from another world. They care about him spilling the beans on his loop ability.
I'd argue that ramblings that no one can ever take seriously don't really count.Personally I like where Incest Emblem is going with this.
@Incest Emblem
One thing I've been wondering is just what is the extend of things he can't say. Unfortunately even though he's shown he doesn't really mind tricking the hands to come out with the forest stunt, he's never really tried experimenting with the limitations. "I am from another world" isn't even that relevant; it's nothing more then "look at me I'm special." He could just say "I come from the future" "I am from future" "I have seen you die"
Heck in arc 2 he more or less solved the case because he told them outright both that he was cursed and that the village kids are in trouble. Kind of the same in arc 1 as I remember.
Applehell
2016-07-28, 19:12
^But a Curse in Re:Zero is a vey specific termology assoicated which a branch magic whose main trait is that it will kill you once activated. So saying that would just make people suspicious on why he's still alive. They also people like Puck and Betty who can detect them too and will catch his lie. So lying like that wouldn't do him any good in the long run.
Subaru can freely talk about that he comes from the other world. People in Luginica already know that people do come from the other world sometimes, although people who say that are usually regarded as crazy anyway.
Cut-out stuff in the Light Novel not shown in anime up to episode 17:
1.Subaru already mentioned to Priscilla he's from the other world
2.Certain character who has already appeared already said he/she is from other world
3.The "Hoshin" from Anastasia Hoshin is not her true family name. She took up the family name and named her company Hoshin because Hoshin is the name of the founder of the country Kararagi. And according to legend/history, the real Hoshin is somebody from another world.
^
That would open the door to Beako also being from another world, with the things she said to Subaru in this last loop...
^But a Curse in Re:Zero is a vey specific termology assoicated which a branch magic whose main trait is that it will kill you once activated. So saying that would just make people suspicious on why he's still alive. They also people like Puck and Betty who can detect them too and will catch his lie. So lying like that wouldn't do him any good in the long run.What do you mean by "lie."
I'm saying he can say a lot of helpful things with out technically lieing at all.
The mobile lie detectors in the series (Crush included) are gonna help him gain credibility.
The only issue is trust. He has to avoid sounding crazy, which appears to be hard even when he was still in loop 0. :heh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIgkGkZxC2g
Megumin has hijacked the preview of episode 18. Explosion! :heh:
EXPLOSION!! :heh:
Looks like we're just continuing with the endless metal problems porn. Not really surprised, it was pretty high possibility.
With some luck maybe he'll do something on the second half of the episode.
On the bright side, seems we'll get a good look at Puck next episode.
Wandering Soul
2016-07-29, 17:39
I would be oddly okay with Emilia doing that impression for the rest of the season. EXPLOSION!:heh:
Like how there are two layers to the joke.
Subaru: Now, the story is about to hit the climax. Let's make a preview for next episode, Emilia-Tan!
Emila: Kukuku, this preview is where this world chose to destine and I have long-awaited for this moment.
Subaru: Emilia-Tan?
Emila: My name is Emilia, a half-elf spirit user, and one of the royal selection candidate.
Subaru: Emilia-Tan? What's all the sudden, Emilia-Tan? What happened, Emilia-Tan?
Emila: Because of this overwhelmed power, I've mistakenly treated possessing witch's forbidden power... Do you want it? Then, prepare to walk with me into the endless abyss.
Subaru: That is wrong, that is wrong, Emilia-Tan. Everything is wrong, Emilia-tan.
Next episode: From Zero
Emilia: EXPLO—
Subaru: I WON'T LET YOU
It would be alright with me if someone would explain the two layers to the joke. Please.
It would be alright with me if someone would explain the two layers to the joke. Please.
A seiyū joke. Takahashi Rie who voices Emilia has voiced Megumin in Konosuba last season. So here in the PV we have Emilia acting as Megumin with her signature "EXPLOSION!" (though cut off by Subaru) at the end. Here's a website with her explosions:
http://megum.in/
:heh:
larethian
2016-07-30, 11:21
Was relatively busy this week and forgot about this week's radio again. My brain is trembling.
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DemonneoPT
2016-07-30, 21:15
Ahah!! I miss so much those explosions :heh:
I really have to say but Emilia/Megumin's Seiyuu has one of the most prettiest voices i ever heard! Loved the joke in the preview. Can't wait for the next episode. Puck going mad!!!
FateAnomaly
2016-07-31, 05:23
I laughed and felt satisfaction when Otto kicked Subaru out of the carriage.
It is kinda weird that Subaru as a hikkomori is kinda slow on the workings of cliche monster ability like that whale erasing people from existence after it eats them.
So now he also has the ability to kill anyone he wants. All he have to do is to tell them his secret.
You know, the reason we can easily deduce the whale's powers is because it's a fictional universe and therefore we know it's not real. From Subaru's perspective, everything that's happening is all too real. Not to mention he is not in a position where he can just take the time to think of anything other than how to not die.
Peanutbutter
2016-07-31, 08:19
Finally jumped on this train after witnessing all the chattering on it. Binged all current episodes in the last 3 days.
If there ever was a series where I sighed at the behavior of the MC, this has to be it. In the first 2 arcs, MC was watchable though a bit too loud and "seinen-hero" too much. In this current arc, he really epitomizes the "me, me and me" mindset that is in a lot of people these days (and I find it refreshing yet frustrating to watch).
Rem doesn't deserve this piece of crap AT ALL. Neither does Emilia. Being so "savvy" about RPG tropes at the start, and yet doesn't reflect and realise what your actions and words bring, it takes a lot to go through his antics.
Seeing Rem in the Ep 18 preview warms my heart, but I guess the suffering continues till the end. All I want is a decent and happy end.
You know, the reason we can easily deduce the whale's powers is because it's a fictional universe and therefore we know it's not real. From Subaru's perspective, everything that's happening is all too real. Not to mention he is not in a position where he can just take the time to think of anything other than how to not die.From Subaru's perspective, as evident in episode 1, he sees it as a fantasy setting too, no matter how real. He just seems to have forgotten the game logic that permeates the entire universe along with (aparently) any sense of wanting to abuse his gaming knowledge to bend the rules of the world to his favor. Sure, he failed initially, and maybe it actually has no use, but he hasn't really tried hard enough at all to experiment with the boundaries; he only seems to know how to hit his head against them.
With regard to "time to think" argument...
This gets brought up a lot, but the excuse is wearing thin.
Sure in episode 1 where events flowed into one another continuously, with only moving around and running around as pauses you could say he has less time to think then we do. But since episode one he's had days of casual labor. I would think he has had more time to think then some of us just casually thinking about his problem for a bit every week when the episode airs.
There's also a big difference between "hasn't had time to think" and "not thinking at all." With what time Subaru has had, what exactly has he been thinking exactly? One of his weakest points as a character is how his characters "objective," once you go beyond the screeming and moaning, can be sumed up for the last 2 arcs (arc 1 was the exception aparently) as simply "I need to be next to Emilia / I need to drag Emilia around" with no followup at all.
Applehell
2016-07-31, 10:07
Oh please lets stop with the game logic nonsense. Half of the entire first episode was spent striping him of that very notion this was game rather than actual world with it's own rules. It's also a ridiculous idea that implies all fantasy are the same and rides on assumptions that Subaru has even played games that such a being with no real basis to support that line of thinking. Subaru clearly never imagine such a thing to exist here so being completely beliwered at is natural. Meta logic can only take you so far when your dealing with real monsters. It has nothing to do with not thinking about it or not.
And you need to stop exaggerating what happened in first 2 arcs. He did plenty reasoning then, but he had to go through the proper emotional channels first instead acting like a robot who wasn't effected by his expriences. Many people would dealt with his situation much worse than he did if at all.
Subaru will be a better state to think when his mind in better shape to do so. That's it.
Oh please lets stop with the game logic nonsense. Half of the entire first episode was spent striping him of that very notion this was game rather than actual world with it's own rules. It's also ridioulous idea that implies all fantasy are the same and rides on assumptions that Subaru even read books with such a being or thinks what can do normal and expected with no real basis to support it.And yet the world is very game-y in many aspects.
Dunno why you bring up the show not wanting him to use game logic to at least try to understand the world around him easier. I think the author would be pretty stupid if he picked an otaku for his character's persona and then not even half way though the first episode (volume?) decided "oh shit, uh, yeah never mind" by making everything about his character useless. Whats the point? You would just go and change Subaru's entire back story if that was the case.
And you need to stop exaggerating what happened in first 2 arcs. He did plenty reasoning, but he had to go through the proper emotional channels first instead acting like a robot who wasn't effected by his expriences. Many people would dealt with his situation much worse than he did if at all.
Subaru will be a better state to think when his mind in better shape to. That's it.By that logic if I get a paper cut food should drop from the sky. If I get a broken leg I shouldn't have to work. And if I break my arm I should have my own personal maid.
Misfortune is not a free pass in life. Pity and aid are two very different things.
So, do we really need another character to come in and solve the problem for Subaru? Is that what you all want?
If you want to talk realism...
Anyone in this situation, no matter the torment, no matter the scars, if he doesn't man up and fix the problems he has himself NOBODY else will. Especially in cases such as that of the show. There's no public safety and the entire country couldn't give a shit about Subaru even if he got murdered in the street; you're all applying your Earth-democracy and human rights logic way too deeply to this show. But even if that wasn't the case, the universe doesn't just bend down to wipe your ass based how misfortune you are. You are an insignificant spec of dust with or with out your mental problems.
Realistically there's only 3 things that can happen...
you fix your problems, before it's too late to fix them; all the time wasted not fixing your problem is merely courting death
someone else has to fix your problems for you
pie drops from the sky and your problem magically goes away (what everyone wants and where I see this silly story going at the moment; frankly pie has already dropped a dozen times just in this arc)
you die (permanently), but hey you died "righteously" since you were suffering from some "problems," which obviously makes all the difference. So it's all "good," even if you were really the only hope for other people around you (who supported you when you were down), so long as you die for the right reasons nobody can blame you for all the things you could have done but didn't even try. /sarcasm
DemonneoPT
2016-07-31, 11:19
Yep, i think a lot of people are delusional about what they would be able to do in such situation and are still to attached to the usual OP MC tropes.
And yet the world is very game-y in many aspects.
Dunno why you bring up the show not wanting him to use game logic to at least try to understand the world around him easier. I think the author would be pretty stupid if he picked an otaku for his character's persona and then not even half way though the first episode (volume?) decided "oh shit, uh, yeah never mind" by making everything about his character useless. Whats the point? You would just go and change Subaru's entire back story if that was the case.
By that logic if I get a paper cut food should drop from the sky. If I get a broken leg I shouldn't have to work. And if I break my arm I should have my own personal maid.
Misfortune is not a free pass in life. Pity and aid are two very different things.
So, do we really need another character to come in and solve the problem for Subaru? Is that what you all want?
If you want to talk realism...
Anyone in this situation, no matter the torment, no matter the scars, if he doesn't man up and fix the problems he has himself NOBODY else will. Especially in cases such as that of the show. There's no public safety and the entire country couldn't give a shit about Subaru even if he got murdered in the street; you're all applying your Earth-democracy and human rights logic way too deeply to this show. But even if that wasn't the case, the universe doesn't just bend down to wipe your ass based how misfortune you are. You are an insignificant spec of dust with or with out your mental problems.
Realistically there's only 3 things that can happen...
you fix your problems, before it's too late to fix them; all the time wasted not fixing your problem is merely courting death
someone else has to fix your problems for you
pie drops from the sky and your problem magically goes away (what everyone wants and where I see this silly story going at the moment; frankly pie has already dropped a dozen times just in this arc)
you die (permanently), but hey you died "righteously" since you were suffering from some "problems," which obviously makes all the difference. So it's all "good," even if you were really the only hope for other people around you (who supported you when you were down), so long as you die for the right reasons nobody can blame you for all the things you could have done but didn't even try. /sarcasm
There's nothing remotely "game-y" about this world. It's a fantasy world, not a VRMMORPG come to life.
Big talk. In the end, it's easier said than done.
Looks pretty game-y to me. Especially with the save point system it has.
Yep, i think a lot of people are delusional about what they would be able to do in such situation and are still to attached to the usual OP MC tropes.
Big talk. In the end, it's easier said than done.This straw man argument of putting the words of "*I* would definitely make it" in my mouth which neither I or ANYBODY ELSE has ever said, because you all can't accept "trying" as a valid option is getting old.
You make it sound like being a defeatist magically solves everything.
If you're so resolute on defeat when tackling anything then you'll just achieve worse results then you could even imagine yourself, since instead of aiming high you're justifying the lowest of the low.
The show even explained this itself. In one of the few useful parts of Subaru's madness, just as our favorite evil priest explained, his madness is artificial. Which is not to say that Subaru hasn't suffered but that a lot of his suffering is something he has created to meet the expectations he has (and apparently all of you have) for how one has to "suffer" in the circumstances and not of natural origin. It's like how some people make cartoony noises when they get hurt and dance around as if meeting some expectations on how one needs to react when getting hurt. Subaru even proved his words to be correct shortly after.
Looks pretty game-y to me. Especially with the save point system it has.
This straw man argument of putting the words of "*I* would definitely make it" which neither I or ANYBODY ELSE has ever said, because you all can't accept "trying" as a valid option is getting old.
You make it sound like being a defeatist magically solves everything.
If you're so resolute on defeat when tackling anything then you'll just achieve worse results then you could even imagine yourself, since instead of aiming high you're justifying the lowest of the low.
The show even explained this itself. In one of the few useful parts of Subaru's madness, just as our favorite evil priest explained, his madness is artificial. Which is not to say that Subaru hasn't suffered but that a lot of his suffering is something he has created to meet the expectations he has (and apparently all of you have) for how one has to "suffer" in the circumstances and not of natural origin. It's like how some people make cartoony noises when they get hurt and dance around as if meeting some expectations on how one needs to react when getting hurt.
I repeat: There is NOTHING "game-y" about this world. Subaru's ability, which only applies to him, looks like a respawn system, but it's gonna take more than that to call the world "game-y" much less apply game logic.
Have you not been watching? Subaru HAS been trying. He's failed as a result of his mixed up priorities. Getting help from the other candidates was the right move, but he failed to negotiate as a result of his anger that narrowed his mind. Crusch also noted his mixed up priorities. Subaru's problem isn't not trying, it's getting his head straight.
The correct word is feigned. Subaru feigned madness as a result of his very understandable trauma in order to escape reality, which could also be interpreted as hoping someone else could fix his problems and therefore slothful. There was nothing unnatural about the origins of his madness.
You are saying Subaru needs to tackle his problems. As are we, but that's not going to happen unless he gets his mind straight and that's not going to happen out of nowhere without some sort of profound experience.
You can call it non-game-y all you want (and I don't even have a problem with people not seeing it as game-y like me), the problem is not just the game like similarities it's the over simplification of most of the elements in the world. Very basic politics. Very simple magic system. Very simple social hierarchies (elfs, lizzard men, etc living together no problem). Some odd balls are thrown in but that doesn't change much, most of the characters are so single-dimension they're not much different from game NPCs. You can throw the entire setting in a game, change nothing and it would work.
Have you not been watching? Subaru HAS been trying. He's failed as a result of his mixed up priorities.I don't even count that since it was almost like the entire world forced him to try, but regardless, so what if he failed!? try again!
DemonneoPT
2016-07-31, 12:29
@Felix
But Subaru is actually trying. You just want him to succeed in the first tries without him even having the proper knowledge to do so. He can't just look at Crusch and instantly figure it out what her way of thinking and goals are. The anime uses the reset system so we can learn a little bit more about what's happening within each loop. The same thing is valid for Subaru. Even the characters deaths have meaning, like when Emilia died, it served the purpose of showing that Satella's dark hands currently cursing Subaru can actually kill people and that may be a game changing information. So he will have to die and suffer until enough information is gathered so he can come up with a viable plan and use his chess pieces (other characters that can actually do something) to turn the tables. And he has to do this with a limited ammount of time, without having any usefull skill since he is just an average joe and at the same time dealing with the stress and mental traumas that comes with death, torture and constantly seeing your loved ones dying and sacrificing for you over and over again. That is why i think the criticism Subaru gets is unfair. You are not taking into account the psychological approach the author is exploring in his story including Subaru's background as the typicall otaku/neet. His reset power may be godlike to say at least, but it comes with a great price! That's what the last episodes explored and you just considered it as an useless mess, which for me makes no sense at all.
You can call it non-game-y all you want (and I don't even have a problem with people not seeing it as game-y like me), the problem is not just the game like similarities it's the over simplification of most of the elements in the world. Very basic politics. Very simple magic system. Very simple social hierarchies (elfs, lizzard men, etc living together no problem). Some odd balls are thrown in but that doesn't change much, most of the characters are so single-dimension they're not much different from game NPCs. You can throw the entire setting in a game, change nothing and it would work.
Yep, that is your main problem because you want everything now instead of getting the information little by little like it's supposed to be. Mysteries and world building should take it's time to be fully developped unless you plan to finish the story in 25 episodes. I heard the anime will only cover like 15% of the total story? And you already want everything or a big part of it to be already fully explored...
You can call it non-game-y all you want (and I don't even have a problem with people not seeing it as game-y like me), the problem is not just the game like similarities it's the over simplification of most of the elements in the world. Very basic politics. Very simple magic system. Very simple social hierarchies (elfs, lizzard men, etc living together no problem). Some odd balls are thrown in but that doesn't change much, most of the characters are so single-dimension they're not much different from game NPCs. You can throw the entire setting in a game, change nothing and it would work.
I don't even count that since it was almost like the entire world forced him to try, but regardless, so what if he failed!? try again!
There was nothing complicated about that stuff to begin with. They haven't been oversimplified. They haven't been expanded on, but there is potential. A game setting quantifies things. There are stats, skills, iron-clad rules. This is NOT a game.
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