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n0m@n
2017-06-26, 03:35
This is a thread to discuss High School DxD Light Novel DX volume 4.

Please stay on-topic and discuss what happens in this volume.

No shipping talk
No pointless chatter
No posting raws or novel illustrations
No posting translations of the novels themselves
No asking about when translations will be done
No posts only to update people about translation status (or to just say that something's "out")
No posts only to thank translators (please us PM or VM instead)


If you want to discuss a related topic, please feel free to request another thread be created about that topic.

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High school DX.4 preview


――My name is Saji Genshirou. I’m a second year student and am Kaichou’s Pawn.


There is another Pawn in the same year as me which made me happy. Though that guy was feeling astonished back then.


That was my meeting with him.


High school D×D DX 4――23.5


I came up with dozens of strategies where I wouldn’t have to fight you head on. I also came up with hundreds of ways to attain victory.

――But I discarded all of that. Do you know why?

No matter how many ways of victories I come up with, all of them are worth nothing more than crap compared to the choice of being able to fight against the King of Lions head on.

――“Spear of Indra” Team’s Leader, Cao Cao


……You fraud!!

He’s right! You must have used the [King]’s piece! No wonder you are strong even though you don’t have any demonic powers!!

You are the heir of the house of the Great King after all! It wouldn’t be weird if you had used it!


They said those things to me but this is practically my fate of being born in the house of Bael.

――But speaking truthfully, I am feeling happy about it..

It was no easy path……but even so, many of them think of me as a Devil of the Bael and they see me as the heir of Bael.

――「Purple King of Lions」 team leader, Sairaorg Bael



It’s been a while. I will have myself participate this time. --「Spear of Indra」 Georg

Even that Longinus possessor makes his return due to the participation of his comrades in the tournament.


Master. Will you hear the wish of Saji Genshiro? For a man there is always one man he wants to beat no matter what. ――Sitri group’s [Rook], Loup Garou

The quiet man is trying to push forward the battle between men.


I never thought you could use Dungam(Gundam) in such a way!! ――Seekvaira Agares


※Since this is DX, See-chan will definitely maker her appearance so she will have her own line and go wild.


This is my first time shopping in a shopping mall! ――Lint Selzan

Now them Lint-dono! We shall go to the game centre together! ――Kunou

Both of them had become friends and were enjoying life.


……Making new techniques, making new techniques…… ――Shidou Irina

She was working on making a new technique which involves the use of power of light


This battle. Maybe it would have been different if Seig was here…… ――「Spear of Indra」 Jeanne

There was comrades that had died. But there are also comrades that will return――


Well, it will be weird since it’s coming from me who left the group back then, but we can believe in the current Cao Cao. ――「Spear of Indra」 Perseus

Even the comrades that had once left had made their return.


Oh, Crom Cruach. So you came. ――Rias Gremory

……I came regarding put pact. ――Crom Cruach

What is the pact Rias made with the legendary Evil Dragon――


Now then, who will be the one to defeat Oppai Dragon. ――Sitri group’s Knight, Bennia

The countermeasure against Hyoudou Issei is an issue for the Sitri group.


As the current student president, I want to exchange conversation with the former student president through battle. ――Xenovia

Xenovia’s own way of physical speech assaults Sona Sitri mercilessly.


It’s almost summer so I want to discuss about the club’s camp! ――Asia

Even if the match is closing in, the school life will obviously approach too.


Oh my, the recklessness of this plan is insane. Even so, I still need to do it. ――Ouryuu

Yes, he has no other choice but to do it as a member of “Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth” team.


……Just as I thought, Rvael is really amazing. ――Toujou Koneko

Koneko witnesses the stunt of her friend.


Ever since I was defeated by you, I……had yearned for this day to come. The great king of lions……! -―「Spear of Indra」 Hercules

An unavoidable battle is something which occurs all of a sudden.


Ise-kun! You must not get provoked! ――Rossweisse

A shocking event for Ise happens there.


There must be something only the heiress of Gremory and Sitri can understand. ――Himejima Akeno

There is something only she can see since she saw them up close.


I will take you down, Ravel-san! ――Shinra Tsubaki

If she takes down the other team’s support, then――!


I do know a bit about Dungam(Gundam)…… ――Elmenhilde

The victims are clearly increasing――.


I will guide Ise-sama in a different way to Rias-sama. ――Yes, we will crush Sitri team. ――Ravel Phoenix

The lost she experienced in the match against 「Heaven’s Joker」 team removed something inside her.


……I see. So a completely different way from Rias to use Ise-kun…… So this is who Ravel-san really is. ――Sona Sitri

Sona’s calculation and Ravel’s calculation cross path――.


My name is Vritra. Together with Saji Genshirou, we challenge Ddraig of the Heavenly Dragon to a fight!

――Dragon King Vritra


You had given your name, Vritra……! My name is Ddraig! I accept that challenge!
Now then, partner. There’s no going back.
This――is a battle between Dragons!
――Sekiryuutei Ddraig

What started there was a battle between Dragons.


I came all the way here to beat you!! Hyoudoooooooooooooooou!!
――Saji Genshirou

Come! I will take you down!! Sajiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!
――Hyoudou Issei

The World Rating Game tournament, Azazel Cup, which is getting heated up――
What happens there is two matches――.

That man――was born with the strongest spear.
That man――was born with nothing.

「Purple King of Lions」 team VS 「Spear of Indra」 team

We were peers.
We were comrades.
We were rivals.
We were pals.
That’s why――.
We need to continue from that day――.
We need to settle the score this time for sure.

「Sekiryuutei of Blazing Truth」 team VS 「Sona Sitri」 team

ハイスクールD×D DX.4
Student Council and Leviathan

Coming out in July 20th!

The battle which could not be told in volume 23 happens there.

Bennia Lover
2017-06-26, 05:48
Saji is a third year student.

So Spear of Indra is the team name for Cao Cao's team?

CCPDarkraiRules
2017-06-26, 05:55
I think its more along the lines of Saji remembering his 1st meeting with Issei.

Hakai
2017-06-26, 06:24
I will guide Ise-sama in a different way to Rias-sama. ――Yes, we will crush Sitri team. ――Ravel Phoenix

That's my girl!

This preview made my day, thanks n0m. Was getting a bit thirsty for some DxD in my life *inhales* :heh:

Bennia Lover
2017-06-26, 06:29
Poor Sona not getting a cool team name. Team Spear of Indra, Team Purple King of Lions, Team Red Dragon Emperor of Blazing Truth, Team Heaven's Joker and then you just get Team Sona Sitri lol

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 06:37
^Yeah, that's what I think, too.

Anyway, this seems like it'll be amazing. I really want to read. The part about Ravel having a different way from Rias of guiding and using Ise is also something I look forward to seeing, though it sounds kind of ominous. I mean, for one thing, what did Ravel lose in the Team Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth vs. Team Dulio match? The lost she experienced in the match against 「Heaven’s Joker」 team removed something inside her. ^What exactly does that mean?

The showdown between Ise and Saji and Ddraig and Vritra in the Team Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth vs. Team Sitri match in this Volume also sounds like it'll be amazing and epic. Hopefully it won't disappoint. I really want to read that fight especially. The showdown between Dragons. Vritra and Ddraig also sounded really badass in this preview. I like it.

I wonder what Rias will think when she sees the new way to use Ise. How will it affect the matches in the future where Ise has to participate as her Pawn? I hope we'll get to see it, but unless there's a sequel featuring Ise and the others, we probably won't. I'm not sure I like that.

B214
2017-06-26, 06:38
That's my girl!

This preview made my day, thanks n0m. Was getting a bit thirsty for some DxD in my life *inhales* :heh:

There's a possibility that Sona can completely outdo Ravel's plan though.

Poor Sona not getting a cool team name. Team Spear of Indra, Team Purple King of Lions, Team Red Dragon Emperor of Blazing Truth, Team Heaven's Joker and then you just get Team Sona Sitri lol

Pretty sure Rias' team is also the same. Team Rias Gremory.

Bennia Lover
2017-06-26, 06:39
I want to see Bennia fight Issei just to see what she would say to him cause I bet she would be fan girling during their fight lol

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 06:42
My last post was 2 posts late. Just wanted to say that.

Anyway, yeah, B214 is right. Rias is also in the same situation with her team's name. Poor Rias and Sona.

And yeah, I think it's possible for Sona to defeat Ravel even with that new plan that Ravel came up with.

Edit: One post late. Man, this lag is killing me. Also made the site try to submit my previous post twice. Happens to me a lot these days.

Anyway, @Bennia Lover, I'm interested more in what makes Ise get provoked and how.

Bennia Lover
2017-06-26, 06:45
@Dragon Well what was removed certainly wasn't Issei's Dragon 'D' because that woman would not allow such a thing to happen lol

Hakai
2017-06-26, 06:51
There's a possibility that Sona can completely outdo Ravel's plan though.
I realize that, still I just found that line really badass :D

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 06:55
@Dragon Well what was removed certainly wasn't Issei's Dragon 'D' because that woman would not allow such a thing to happen lol

Of course not. It specifically says that it's something that was removed from Ravel. So that's why I'm asking what it was that Ravel herself lost in that fight, especially. Sheesh. Please take your head out of the gutter. :heh:

@Hakaishin: It did sound badass, but I also found it kind of ominous. It sounds kind of like she's trying to steal him away from Rias or something.

CCPDarkraiRules
2017-06-26, 07:01
Oh, Crom Cruach. So you came. ――Rias Gremory

……I came regarding put pact. ――Crom Cruach

What is the pact Rias made with the legendary Evil Dragon――

By the way was that "put" suppose to be "our"?

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 07:02
Seems that way. And that reminds me that I'd forgotten to mention this earlier: What was the pact that Rias made with Crom Cruach? Something related to fighting Ise? I really want to know.

Hakai
2017-06-26, 07:04
@Hakaishin: It did sound badass, but I also found it kind of ominous. It sounds kind of like she's trying to steal him away from Rias or something.

C'mon :/

It just means her way of doing things is different from Rias
……I see. So a completely different way from Rias to use Ise-kun…… So this is who Ravel-san really is. ――Sona Sitri

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 07:15
You think I don't realize that? It still gives me that feeling either way, though. I'm not sure why.

Hakai
2017-06-26, 07:22
You think I don't realize that? It still gives me that feeling either way, though. I'm not sure why.

you are overthinking.


How did you manage to get "she's trying to steal Ise from Rias feeling" from those simple lines, she's just guiding her king, doing her job .__.

B214
2017-06-26, 07:32
That quote made me think we may see some disagreement between Ise and Ravel. It makes it sound like Ravel will disregard Ise's feeling and desire to duel Saji and force Ise to follow her plan which ends up pissing Ise who gets angry with Ravel. And that becomes the plot for V24/25.

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 07:42
^Probably. I can see it happening. There's also that warning from her mother.

@Hakaishin: I understand that she's just trying to do her job, but the wording of those lines still gave me those vibes. I do want to know what it was that "was removed from her" when they lost to the Joker of Heaven Team, though.

I don't know why the wording gave me that vibe, though. :eyespin:

Sparda4
2017-06-26, 07:50
If Saji and Vritra are so pumped to fight do you guys think this fight is more then what it seems ? They have a level of bloodlust from what i'm getting out of the quote

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 08:35
If Saji and Vritra are so pumped to fight do you guys think this fight is more then what it seems ? They have a level of bloodlust from what i'm getting out of the quote

I don't think there's any bloodlust, though. Is it just me? It seemed more like a competitive challenge to me than a threat. And Ddraig also took it as a challenge from a fellow Dragon and strong rival that he shouldn't turn down.

katokateki
2017-06-26, 08:51
My name is Vritra. Together with Saji Genshirou, we challenge Ddraig of the Heavenly Dragon to a fight!

――Dragon King Vritra
So, Sparda, again, seems like what you wished has kinda come true. Vritra taking over the fight. Might bring some unknown power-up on the table. Hehe.

And I think B214 might have spoiled us about the plot xD :heh:

Maybe Ravel finally lost the thing that was keeping her from becoming what her mother warned Ise about? Idk. But Koneko admiring Ravel really showcases their maturing.

Thanks n0m@n for the update! :)

EDIT: @Osman's post which I didn't see earlier (weird): yeah, no blood lust. Just a dragon showing his pride to another.

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 09:05
So, Sparda, again, seems like what you wished has kinda come true. Vritra taking over the fight. Might bring some unknown power-up on the table. Hehe.

And I think B214 might have spoiled us about the plot xD :heh:

Maybe Ravel finally lost the thing that was keeping her from becoming what her mother warned Ise about? Idk. But Koneko admiring Ravel really showcases their maturing.

Thanks n0m@n for the update! :)

EDIT: @Osman's post which I didn't see earlier (weird): yeah, no blood lust. Just a dragon showing his pride to another.

Nah, I don't think Vritra's taking over. He's just challenging Ddraig to a fight. Would you say that Ddraig accepting the challenge the way he did means he's going to control Ise? Because I wouldn't say that.

As for what you said about Ravel losing the thing you said was keeping her from doing what her mother warned Ise about: Yeah, I guess it's possible. We'll see when it comes to that.

Lucidrago
2017-06-26, 11:55
I'm very interested in how Ravel's path of supremacy will play into this volume. Since it said she lost something. Because of their loss against Dulio, Ravel might just be concerned with winning now no matter the price. And while Issei does want to win, Ravel would try to advise him against fighting against Saji which would cause differences between them. Because despite Issei knowing how important it is for them to win, he's not one to back down from a challenge, especially from his fellow pawn and rival. And because Issei is a king now, fighting Saji at this point and going up against the Sitri team is very dangerous no matter how strong he is. They know how strong he is and would come up with countermeasures against him. Ravel would consider that since she knows how good of a planner and tactician Sona is and since Issei is the king it's game over if he retires. So that's where you see their personal paths coming into conflict. And to be honest, Saji wouldn't be defeated by Issei without getting the last laugh.

Sparda4
2017-06-26, 12:48
Well the Phenex clan is know for wanting to win no matter what so i'm not that shocked by what Ravel is doing. @katokateki I don't know why but i get a lot of stuff right but i'm not gonna push my luck tho :heh:

katokateki
2017-06-26, 14:54
@Osman I was giving hopes to Sparda from when he thought Vritra could take over the charge in front of Indra. The above incident at least shows that Vritra can and will act according to his free will which might be to kill indra... :heh:

@Sparda Yeah you lucky son of a biscuit.

Seafoam
2017-06-26, 16:09
Still no cover? I see that in terms of pages, it's almost as long as volume 22, and longer than 20, which means it should be pretty detailed for the fights.

Bennia Lover
2017-06-26, 16:29
So basically the size of V21 and yeah it's an entire volume dedicated to 2 matches so it has to be this long.

Sparda4
2017-06-26, 16:31
Oh guys let me let you in on a little secret, i the reason i thought Vritra could take over was because of JD. What i mean by that is the Sacred Gear took control away from Issei no other way to explain why someone goes nuts from it because some can control their anger ( example being Vali) and in turn control the Juggernaut Drive the life steal aspect does help in going crazy but again it can be resisted. Sairaorg resisted BtB (JD and BtB are only different in what kind of creatures power it releases BtB being anything, JD Heavenly Dragon)

Lucidrago
2017-06-26, 16:34
Well the Phenex clan is know for wanting to win no matter what so i'm not that shocked by what Ravel is doing. @katokateki I don't know why but i get a lot of stuff right but i'm not gonna push my luck tho :heh:

Where did you get that from? Because it's natural for a lot of people to want to win their matches. Why do you think it's because she's a Phenex?

Sparda4
2017-06-26, 16:41
^ The phenex are prideful bunch almost on the level of Dragons so yeah, and as a creature the Phoenix is proud of it's power to be always be reborn and be "undefeated"

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 16:53
But Ravel seems to be unique with the "supremacy" thing in the Phenex Clan, from how her mother was warning Ise. It doesn't seem like it's a Phenex thing, at least not to me. Pride you're probably right about. Supremacy, though, is the Hakuryuukou's thing. Remember how they said before that the Sekiryuutei chose domination while the Hakuryuukou chose supremacy? Ise's path is probably domination through righteousness, or maybe righteousness through domination - either way it's still domination because he's the Sekiryuutei. Vali is all about supremacy, whatever flavor it may be in for him (like how Ise's is righteousness). Ravel needs to understand that supremacy and the Sekiryuutei don't mix, as they're like oil and fire. Ise has to win against Sona in a way that would be unique to him as the Sekiryuutei who believes in righteousness (and as the Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth, which kind of does fit if you think about it: righteousness -> Blazing Truth).

Lucidrago
2017-06-26, 16:54
Oh guys let me let you in on a little secret, i the reason i thought Vritra could take over was because of JD. What i mean by that is the Sacred Gear took control away from Issei no other way to explain why someone goes nuts from it because some can control their anger ( example being Vali) and in turn control the Juggernaut Drive the life steal aspect does help in going crazy but again it can be resisted. Sairaorg resisted BtB (JD and BtB are only different in what kind of creatures power it releases BtB being anything, JD Heavenly Dragon)

That's assuming that JD works the same as Regulus Nemea's BtB. It might release the power but does BtB actually causes its possessors to go berserk. Sure it releases the full power of the Lion King, Regulus, and uses up your lifespan. But that doesn't mean it causes the possessors to go berserk like JD does.

And JD is not a matter of controlling your anger. The possessors went berserk because they drowned in the sea of negative emotions of the past possessors, losing themselves in the process. That's why Juggernaut Drive is a one-time use. Juggernaut Drive can't be reversed or controlled. It's a form that gives you immense power enough to defeat gods and asks for your life and sanity in return. Juggernaut Drive was not about controlling your anger. The immense power, the possessor going berserk, and losing their life was Juggernaut Drive. The past possessors drowned themselves in power, with some of them going Juggernaut Drive and killing themselves while destroying everything around them. Once you go Juggernaut Drive, you're not there anymore. There are no emotions to control. You have already lost yourself in the sea of negative emotions.

That's Juggernaut Drive normally. In abnormal cases like Issei, he was able to get out of there because the person who was Issei was still in there. Regularly, Issei should have lost himself in the sea of negative emotions. But the main thing that caused him to go Juggernaut Drive was him apparently losing Asia again. So over all those negative emotions, there was Issei still there moaning over apparently losing Asia when he simply should have drowned in the power that was Juggernaut Drive. So because Issei was still in there, he was able to get out of Juggernaut Drive. That's why Vali called Issei's JD 'incomplete.' Because Issei was still in there.

As in Vali's case, he used his immense demonic powers to maintain JD for a few minutes without succumbing to the negative emotions or his life force being sucked up. This resulted in a huge drain on his demonic powers and stamina. Vali was merely using his demonic powers to keep the floodwaters(of Juggernaut Drive) at bay for a few minutes. But the danger was still there for him. He just used his natural talent to make that power his b****. Well for a few minutes anyway. So Vali wasn't controlling his anger.

Sparda4
2017-06-26, 17:00
I agree with you on the fact that Issei's JD wasn't the real deal but Vali's was and here's the kicker Vali needed to control his anger otherwise he would have forgot to channel his demonic energy and go berserk just like all the others so Vali did control his anger it wasn't his demonic energy alone.

Anyways back to topic.

Lucidrago
2017-06-26, 17:01
^ The phenex are prideful bunch almost on the level of Dragons so yeah, and as a creature the Phoenix is proud of it's power to be always be reborn and be "undefeated"

So why is winning just unique to them? Everyone wants to win. Issei wants to win, Rias wants to win, etc. It would be more accurate to say it's their pride as high-class devils.

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 17:13
That's assuming that JD works the same as Regulus Nemea's BtB. It might release the power but does BtB actually causes its possessors to go berserk. Sure it releases the full power of the Lion King, Regulus, and uses up your lifespan. But that doesn't mean it causes the possessors to go berserk like JD does.

And JD is not a matter of controlling your anger. The possessors went berserk because they drowned in the sea of negative emotions of the past possessors, losing themselves in the process. That's why Juggernaut Drive is a one-time use. Juggernaut Drive can't be reversed or controlled. It's a form that gives you immense power enough to defeat gods and asks for your life and sanity in return. Juggernaut Drive was not about controlling your anger. The immense power, the possessor going berserk, and losing their life was Juggernaut Drive. The past possessors drowned themselves in power, with some of them going Juggernaut Drive and killing themselves while destroying everything around them. Once you go Juggernaut Drive, you're not there anymore. There are no emotions to control. You have already lost yourself in the sea of negative emotions.

That's Juggernaut Drive normally. In abnormal cases like Issei, he was able to get out of there because the person who was Issei was still in there. Regularly, Issei should have lost himself in the sea of negative emotions. But the main thing that caused him to go Juggernaut Drive was him apparently losing Asia again. So over all those negative emotions, there was Issei still there moaning over apparently losing Asia when he simply should have drowned in the power that was Juggernaut Drive. So because Issei was still in there, he was able to get out of Juggernaut Drive. That's why Vali called Issei's JD 'incomplete.' Because Issei was still in there.

As in Vali's case, he used his immense demonic powers to maintain JD for a few minutes without succumbing to the negative emotions or his life force being sucked up. This resulted in a huge drain on his demonic powers and stamina. Vali was merely using his demonic powers to keep the floodwaters(of Juggernaut Drive) at bay for a few minutes. But the danger was still there for him. He just used his natural talent to make that power his b****. Well for a few minutes anyway. So Vali wasn't controlling his anger.

Great post. And I think you're right.

This is where Breakdown the Beast and Juggernaut Drive differ. Yes, they both shorten your lifespan and release the full power of the sealed creature. But that's where the similarities stop. Breakdown the Beast doesn't carry the danger of the user going berserk. There was no sign of that in Sairaorg, either (though he isn't really a true Sacred Gear possessor).

Vritra doesn't have Breakdown the Beast. Saji's Balance Breaker already releases the full power of Vritra, plus there's also fusion in it between their minds where they become one, so there's no room for Breakdown the Beast because for Saji, his Balance Breaker already kind of doubles as a Breakdown the Beast, too. And no, he won't go berserk or lose control. He and Vritra are one in that form, so Vritra won't be taking over (he probably can't).

@Sparda4: Vali controlling his anger wouldn't be enough for that in that case. Remember: Juggernaut Drive stems from the negative emotions of the past possessors of the Two Heavenly Dragons, not the current possessors. This is key. Because they are not his own emotions, he can't control them. His only choice, then, is to use his Demonic Power to keep them at bay. Make sense?

But I thought part of the reason why Ise's Juggernaut Drive was incomplete was also because Ddraig's full power wasn't released. Ise hadn't fully awakened it all yet, after all. One proof is the fact that the True Queen, which is an alternative to it, is said to be just as powerful, but it doesn't bring out the full power of Ddraig either.

Edit: One post late.

@Lucidrago: Agreed about the pride thing.

Sparda4
2017-06-26, 17:27
True that JD is the past member's negative emotions but if someone is angry it starts to rub of on you so he did need to keep his anger in check too.

And on the topic of Saji and Vritra not having a BtB i agree they don't have it but they still can use their lifeforce to get a LOT stronger absorption line works on the user also remember that ?

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 17:35
Breakdown the Beat doesn't make the user go berserk. Unless you can show me proof to the contrary, that is. Also, for the Juggernaut Drive, what makes you so sure anger is the only negative emotion? First of all, I really don't think Vali keeping his emotions under control would get him anywhere since he mainly needs to keep the past possessors' negative emotions at bay. But even before we get to that, remember that it's negative emotions in general, meaning it doesn't just include anger. There's anger, sadness, pain, etc. etc.. Plus it's a whole flood of emotions from all of the past hosts until it intensifies into something almost impossible to control. How many emotions would Vali have to hold back? And again, it's triggered from the past possessors' emotions, so not much good would come of him holding back or controlling his own emotions, anyway. Same with Ise. The moment Juggernaut Drive activates, unless you have as much or more Demonic Power as/than Vali, you're already gone. Only Ise's case was different because he was still in there mourning Asia's "death" and playing the Oppai Dragon song brought him back.

Sparda4
2017-06-26, 17:56
I'm not going to argue with your points because your right, it's been a long time since JD was shown and Issei's grief turned to anger so i guess i made the assumption later on that JD=Rage sorry about that.

Now let's go back to discussing how the Sekiryuutei vs Sitri match would play out and what might Saji be holding in his sleeve

DragonOsman
2017-06-26, 18:23
Well, yeah, in Ise's case he was saddened by Asia's so-called "death" and that was what triggered it, but that was also the reason why he wasn't completely gone. Hence the incomplete Juggernaut Drive. In any other case, he would've been completely gone the instant Juggernaut Drive activated. Vali could only be fine for a few minutes because he has more Demonic Power than Ise.

But yeah, back to the Sekiryuutei vs. Sitri fight. As I'd said, the supremacy is more the Hakuryuukou's thing. Ravel also follows the path of supremacy, but she needs to know that she can't force Ise to follow that path because he follows the path of righteousness and also because, as the Sekiryuutei, supremacy just isn't for him (for the Sekiryuutei, it's always domination).

It seems like that Ravel trying to force it will cause a disagreement between her and Ise as others have said. Ise really wants to fight Saji, and Ddraig wants to fight Vritra. And vice versa, too. Even if Ise understands that he could end up costing his whole team the victory if he agreed to fight Saji in the match, his pride won't let him walk out of that fight. Not only as Saji's rival and fellow Pawn, but also as a Dragon.

But this is why I think if it comes to this, Ise and Ravel will have to work together to try to find a way to win the match even with the Ise/Ddraig vs. Saji/Vritra fight on the cards. In other words, they'll have to win especially as the Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth Team (emphasis on "Sekiryuutei"), in a way that would do the Sekiryuutei title proud.

Also, this:
But Ravel seems to be unique with the "supremacy" thing in the Phenex Clan, from how her mother was warning Ise. It doesn't seem like it's a Phenex thing, at least not to me. Pride you're probably right about. Supremacy, though, is the Hakuryuukou's thing. Remember how they said before that the Sekiryuutei chose domination while the Hakuryuukou chose supremacy? Ise's path is probably domination through righteousness, or maybe righteousness through domination - either way it's still domination because he's the Sekiryuutei. Vali is all about supremacy, whatever flavor it may be in for him (like how Ise's is righteousness). Ravel needs to understand that supremacy and the Sekiryuutei don't mix, as they're like oil and fire. Ise has to win against Sona in a way that would be unique to him as the Sekiryuutei who believes in righteousness (and as the Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth, which kind of does fit if you think about it: righteousness -> Blazing Truth).

Lucidrago
2017-06-26, 19:07
@Osman I was just saying that it wasn't confirmed that Regulus Nemea's BtB caused the user to go berserk. Because Regulus is different from the two Heavenly Dragons. BtB would be similar to JD, but I doubt if it's as strong as JD. Who knows? It might cause the possessor to go berserk. But at the same time, it might not. While BtB and JD are similar, they are different.

@Sparda And Issei's sadness and anger would act as a catalyst for JD. JD was never meant to be controlled. It was just a forceful releasing of the Heavenly Dragons' power that put the possessors at the level of gods. And that kind of power calls for a heavy price. When was it ever stated that you just needed to control your anger to control JD? Because I don't remember it stating the past possessors being angry. Now I remember the past possessors drowning themselves in power and recklessly using it. Vali wasn't controlling his anger, he was using his demonic powers to keep the floodwaters at bay for a few minutes while he used JD. When you're surrounded by negative emotions, I really don't think it makes a difference whether you're angry or not when you're drowning in those negative emotions. You might need something that's way stronger than all those negative emotions like Issei's shock and pain at losing Asia again to still be yourself in that sea of negative emotions. It's more like you would need a very powerful emotion like Issei to overcome those negative emotions. Otherwise, you'll drown in the power that is JD.

Sparda4
2017-06-26, 19:12
Well Domination and Supremacy are very similar, Supremacy is being above everyone while Domination is controlling everything around you ( Atleast that's what the dictionary says) so i'm thinking Issei's going to come out on top not because he's the king but because of the trait of Domination Issei and Ravel DS relationship think about it .

Now about Saji vs Issei and the match as a whole Issei's going to win no doubt about it but i'm thinking this fight is going to be the trigger for a lot of "problems" on both sides.

Tbolt
2017-06-26, 20:21
There are a dozen things that could have been removed from Ravel. Doubt in herself, Doubt in Ise, Doubt in the team, Doubt in her strategy, Doubt in being able to really go all no mater who the opponent is (friend or foe). I for one see nothing ominous in that line but then again I'm not one to go crazy looking for bad things to happen.

Gary29
2017-06-26, 22:04
Still no cover? I see that in terms of pages, it's almost as long as volume 22, and longer than 20, which means it should be pretty detailed for the fights.

The cover should be out July 1st if Ishibumi follows the pattern of the last few volumes. Or June 30th depending on timezones.

Lucidrago
2017-06-26, 22:34
Well Domination and Supremacy are very similar, Supremacy is being above everyone while Domination is controlling everything around you ( Atleast that's what the dictionary says) so i'm thinking Issei's going to come out on top not because he's the king but because of the trait of Domination Issei and Ravel DS relationship think about it .

Now about Saji vs Issei and the match as a whole Issei's going to win no doubt about it but i'm thinking this fight is going to be the trigger for a lot of "problems" on both sides.

Well Issei's going to be on top in more ways than one. :naughty:

B214
2017-06-26, 23:39
@Osman I was just saying that it wasn't confirmed that Regulus Nemea's BtB caused the user to go berserk. Because Regulus is different from the two Heavenly Dragons. BtB would be similar to JD, but I doubt if it's as strong as JD. Who knows? It might cause the possessor to go berserk. But at the same time, it might not. While BtB and JD are similar, they are different.

@Sparda And Issei's sadness and anger would act as a catalyst for JD. JD was never meant to be controlled. It was just a forceful releasing of the Heavenly Dragons' power that put the possessors at the level of gods. And that kind of power calls for a heavy price. When was it ever stated that you just needed to control your anger to control JD? Because I don't remember it stating the past possessors being angry. Now I remember the past possessors drowning themselves in power and recklessly using it. Vali wasn't controlling his anger, he was using his demonic powers to keep the floodwaters at bay for a few minutes while he used JD. When you're surrounded by negative emotions, I really don't think it makes a difference whether you're angry or not when you're drowning in those negative emotions. You might need something that's way stronger than all those negative emotions like Issei's shock and pain at losing Asia again to still be yourself in that sea of negative emotions. It's more like you would need a very powerful emotion like Issei to overcome those negative emotions. Otherwise, you'll drown in the power that is JD.

This is from Volume 11, regarding the BTB from Azazel.
“Judging from the system, it is possible. If it’s Regulus Nemea or a creature-type sealed in Sacred Gear, it will be called , which is written as "Beast of Domination" in Japanese. Though the Heavenly-Dragon’s Juggernaut-Drive is more powerful. That is special. Well these are very dangerous so you shouldn’t use them even if you can. J[B]ust like Juggernaut-Drive, it will drain your life force and eventually kill you after going berserk.”

Well Domination and Supremacy are very similar, Supremacy is being above everyone while Domination is controlling everything around you ( Atleast that's what the dictionary says) so i'm thinking Issei's going to come out on top not because he's the king but because of the trait of Domination Issei and Ravel DS relationship think about it .

Now about Saji vs Issei and the match as a whole Issei's going to win no doubt about it but i'm thinking this fight is going to be the trigger for a lot of "problems" on both sides.

I'm kinda confused here. Ise already discarded the path of domination when he obtained the CCQ.

“I, who is about to awaken, am the Sekiryuutei who has discarded the principle of domination.”

The one who said anything about domination is Vali.

“I walk the road of domination with infinite destruction and by piercing through the imaginary dream. –I shall become a pure Emperor of the Dragon…..”

DragonOsman
2017-06-27, 06:28
Ah, yeah, that's right; Ise discarded the principle of domination and Vali embraced it (but wasn't the Hakuryuukou's supposed to be supremacy? Or am I misremembering there, too?). Ise is all about righteousness and "the path shining in true crimson light" now. Thanks for the reminder. But either way, supremacy isn't right for Ise. He needs to put his foot down in front of Ravel when it comes to this.

But I'd made a blunder in two of my past posts; the expression was referencing should be "like oil and water". My bad there.

@Lucidrago: Thanks for the quote from Azazel on Breakdown the Beast. I stand corrected, then: Breakdown the Beast can make the user go berserk. I guess Sairaorg is different because Regulus Nemea isn't really "his" Sacred Gear? But either way, Heavenly Dragon FTW since the Juggernaut Drive is more powerful.

Since the Cardinal Crimson Full Drive and Emperio Juggernaut Overdrive are alternatives to the Juggernaut Drive, except without the danger from going berserk, hopefully if there are successors to the Sekiryuutei after Ise, they'll be able to use their equivalent of the Cardinal Crimson Full Drive without negative emotions since they should be gone from the Boosted Gear now (a part of Ise's consciousness will be in the Boosted Gear, but without any negative emotions - in other words it'll be like the two strongest Sekiryuutei (can't remember the woman's name, but I think the man's was Barzak or something) since they were completely normal and sane. For successors to the Hakuryuukou coming after Vali, though, as Vali tamed those negative emotions and dominated them, those successors also shouldn't go berserk.

Sparda4
2017-06-27, 06:59
I wonder if CCQ and EJOD could be unlocked by future users i mean Issei and Vali will be in the sacred gear not fully just a part but still they would exist in the SG, so in theory the future users could learn the forms CCQ is iffy but EJOD is possible.

And i agree with you on Issei putting his foot down with Ravel so in a way he is Dominating her Supremacy.

( Am i the only one that thinks there is a little bit of a Domination Submission dynamic between the two ? )

DragonOsman
2017-06-27, 07:20
Ise already discarded the principle of domination. It's in the chant for Cardinal Crimson Queen.

And future possessors of the Boosted Gear would still get their own equivalent of the Cardinal Crimson Queen. It's the "True Queen" from the Triaina forms for Ise because for him it's the Sekiryutei's original power brought out using the characteristics and traits of Pawn. Future possessors would also get the Sekiryuutei's original power released but without the negative emotions or the danger of going berserk, but the difference with the Cardinal Crimson Queen would be that theirs wouldn't have the Pawn's trait of the Queen Promotion like Ise's does. Hence, their own respective equivalents of the Cardinal Crimson Queen. The Cardinal Crimson Full Drive itself would stay, it's just that the future possessors would get their own version of it unless they're also Pawns like him (but even then, for Ise, Ajuka had to make adjustments that made the Sekiryuutei's power come out with the traits of the Pawn Piece, which wouldn't always be the same for the successors, even if it is for some (if Ajuka or someone else who knows enough about Evil Pieces (after Ajuka dies, when it comes to that kind of time) decides to do it for some of the future possessors).

So yeah, what I'm trying to say is that the Cardinal Crimson Full Drive itself isn't going anywhere. It's the new alternative to the Juggernaut Drive for the Sekiryuutei, after all. It's just that future possessors might get a different take on it that's similar to Ise's but still different.

katokateki
2017-06-27, 07:49
Future BG users? Ise isn't gonna anytime soon. Not at least for another few thousands of years. So, pointless.

Lucidrago
2017-06-27, 09:06
@Osman That was B214 that posted the quote, not me. I forgot about that part. But the same thing that causes the possessors of BG and DD to go berserk in JD wouldn't necessarily be the same as what causes those that use BtB to go berserk. Maybe you just need something way stronger to keep yourself from going berserk in those forms.

@Sparda Issei and Vali aren't going anywhere for a long time since they are devils. So why are we talking about future possessors here. And if they died, it would only be a fragment of their consciousness that stays behind. CCQ and EJOD are unique to Issei and Vali alone. Those are unique forms they achieved due to their traits. Issei used the traits of his evil pieces and combined that with Ddraig's power. Vali used his immense talent(demonic powers) to achieve EJOD. Those can't be replicated by any possessor. They would make light of what Issei and Vali achieved with their hard work finding alternatives to JD.

DragonOsman
2017-06-27, 09:32
@Osman That was B214 that posted the quote, not me. I forgot about that part. But the same thing that causes the possessors of BG and DD to go berserk in JD wouldn't necessarily be the same as what causes those that use BtB to go berserk. Maybe you just need something way stronger to keep yourself from going berserk in those forms.

Ah, yeah, my bad for not realizing that that wasn't you. I thought you edited your post when I wasn't looking. I guess it was just B214 messing up the quotation placement in his post. But yeah, anyway, you're probably right about the things that make Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing possessors who use the Juggernaut Drive go berserk being different from what makes those who use Breakdown the Beast go berserk. It may not necessarily be negative emotions in the case of Breakdown the Beast. But yeah, it's true that Breakdown the Beast is just easier to not go berserk in.

@Sparda Issei and Vali aren't going anywhere for a long time since they are devils. So why are we talking about future possessors here. And if they died, it would only be a fragment of their consciousness that stays behind. CCQ and EJOD are unique to Issei and Vali alone. Those are unique forms they achieved due to their traits. Issei used the traits of his evil pieces and combined that with Ddraig's power. Vali used his immense talent(demonic powers) to achieve EJOD. Those can't be replicated by any possessor. They would make light of what Issei and Vali achieved with their hard work finding alternatives to JD.

It's true that the Cardinal Crimson Queen and Emperio Juggernaut Overdrive are unique to Ise and Vali, respectively, due to how they got them, but it's still not right to say that future possessors wouldn't have their own equivalents of those forms, no? I mean, the fact still remains that the normal Juggernaut Drive was discarded in favor of these alternatives, which also means that if future possessors don't somehow also have their own equivalents or takes on these alternatives to the Juggernaut Drive, then those future possessors would have no way to release the true, original power of the Two Heavenly Dragons, and that's something we just can't have. It wouldn't make any sense, either.

Vali's Emperio Juggernaut Overdrive is just the Juggernaut Drive without the danger of going berserk, since the negative emotions are still there - all Vali did was subdue the curse and turn it into a power he can more easily control. Future possessors of the Divine Dividing would also have access to that because there's no need for something special like the traits of Evil Pieces. Ise, on the other hand, did use the traits of the Evil Pieces, so the future possessors of the Boosted Gear would have a Cardinal Crimson Full Drive that doesn't have the traits of the Evil Pieces like Ise's version does. It probably still be Cardinal Crimson Full Drive, though - unless not actually crimson but red in their case since Ise's turned crimson because of his feelings for Rias (he remembered her crimson hair and how much he admires them, and also her, and when he woke up, a crimson light coming from her breasts were covering his armor; that's what changed the armor and turned its color crimson).

It's true that Ise and Vali will be alive for a very long time, but they'll still die when their respective lifespans end, however long that'll take, and then the Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing will be passed on to their next hosts.

B214
2017-06-27, 09:43
10,000 years till the next possessors. Well the next possessors could get something new too. Like Ise and Vali's power having an influence on the BG and DD even after dying.

Bennia Lover
2017-06-27, 10:25
Issei's life span is currently uncertain because of his new body.

DragonOsman
2017-06-27, 11:19
Well, yeah; he could be as immortal as Ophis for all we know. But that'd be bad because in that case his loved ones would die before him which would be painful for him. I hope he'll die at some point, still.

@B214: The next possessors could very well get their own equivalents of what Ise and Vai made. They're the first ones to bring it to the Heavenly Dragon Sacred Gears, and it'd make sense if their successors inherited it from them like how Ise and Vali inherited the Juggernaut Drive (though in this case the future possessors would inherit something better than the Juggernaut Drive).

Bennia Lover
2017-06-27, 11:21
Well that would be semi-immortality [can't die of old age] but he still would be killed by a car accident.

DragonOsman
2017-06-27, 11:23
I don't think Ophis can even be killed. Infinite life-force. Though I guess this would only apply to Ophis in her prime.

Bennia Lover
2017-06-27, 11:24
You mean she could self resurrect or something?

Seafoam
2017-06-27, 11:24
Pretty sure Azazel mentioned something in volume 11 about her not being truly infinite.

DragonOsman
2017-06-27, 11:27
Her power probably has an infinite amount to it, as well as her having an infinite life-force. Plus, she and Great Red are said to be as strong as or stronger than Trihexa. And it's only "current" Ophis, whose power was cut in half, who is not infinite but actually finite.

Recall from the Ise vs. Rizevim fight in Volume 20 that when Rizevim asked why he couldn't cancel the power of Ise's attacks in DxD G mode, Ddraig replied that the power of the Sekiryuutei's ability is infinite, and that you can't cancel infinity. I took it to mean that, at that time, the power of the Sekiryuutei's abilities were infinite. Like, for example, Ise at that time could Boost his power infinitely.

Sparda4
2017-06-27, 15:30
Let me ask an interesting question. Saji's powers are based mostly around umbrakinesis right ? Couldn't he in theory "catch" a dragon shot and shoot it back at Issei ? And more or less move around the battlefield to anywhere that he is affecting ?

DragonOsman
2017-06-27, 15:56
Should be possible, yeah. But shouldn't it apply to any long-range or projectile-type move and not just Ise's Dragon Shot (for the reflecting ability)?

Sparda4
2017-06-27, 16:00
Yeah that's what i'm thinking too, and remember when Saji used absorption line on himself ? That could work even now so he can match Issei a little bit more. No btb needed for the lifesteal.

DragonOsman
2017-06-27, 16:23
True, that. But wouldn't be counterproductive to continue using Absorption Line to shorten his own lifespan? It couldn't possibly be worth to die sooner, and the fact that you're doing it to yourself on purpose just makes it weirder and possibly even stupid IMO.

And again, there's no Breakdown the Beast for Vritra as far as we know. So stop saying it as if it were a possibility.

Hakai
2017-06-27, 16:53
Hmmh. Maybe he'll try absorbing power from his teammates this time to power up. Sona should have a good amount of demonic power. If she can give Saji enough of that he might even be able to fight Ise head-on.

Sparda4
2017-06-27, 16:58
The main focus was on the lifesteal because Vritra is so unique that his SG doesn't have need for a Breakdown the beast. But the main thing i'm wondering about is how is Saji going to bridge the 20 grand canyon wide gap between him and Issei, he has Diabolos Dragon for gods sake that's WAY to much for Saji to handle even if he did sacrafice some of his lifespan. Techiniques might slow down Issei but he has proved time and time again that technique types will just get crushed by his insane level of sheer brute force. This match will be a loss for the Sitri team unless delete field works the way i'm thinking and even that could be overloaded.

Atleast on the plus side Saji's going to get a new technique or two and possibly get a new title :D

DragonOsman
2017-06-27, 17:03
Yeah, a new technique or two (maybe more) and a new title would be good for Saji right about now, though it does feel kind of bad to have it be in a side-story Volume rather than in one of the main story Volumes.

The fight between Ise and Saji is basically a fight between Ddraig and Vritra and their respective hosts. Ddraig said that even though Vritra was a really troublesome opponent due to his versatility, he could still win against him (IIRC). So that means that between Ddraig and Vritra, at least, Ddraig would always win, albeit with some difficulty because of Vritra's versatility.

Sparda4
2017-06-27, 17:13
Hey what if Saji can use demonic powers (The offensive kind) along with Vritra's powers ? That would bridge the gap just a little more and would keep in line with the technique type theme. How about that ? And maybe Rugal has taught him some magic too it's possible.

Edit:

Sona should have a good amount of demonic power. If she can give Saji enough of that he might even be able to fight Ise head-on.

The only reason i see Sona giving Saji HER demonic energy is so that SHE can win the match. I'll be honest here Sona is one of my favorites but her attitude isn't very nice most of the time. And i personally don't want her to give Saji anykind of boost or help because up to this point she hasn't even gave Saji a "Thank you" for what he did in volume 5 and 17 for her(Unless i'm wrong then correct me) Saji nearly gave his life for her twice so i'm against her helping Saji on principle because she hasn't done anything for him the first two times.

Hate to be so salty but i feel i'm right.

DragonOsman
2017-06-27, 17:22
That's true. It should work. But remember that it's not easy to increase Demonic Power. It takes a lot of time. Saji and Ise are kind of stuck with low Demonic Power, though Ise's might be a bit higher and he can also use Boost. But they're both Pawns and can of course raise it in Bishop mode, too (among other ways).

But Saji's biggest hope would be either Absorption Line to suck Ise's blood or power and/or Delete Field. The latter can be overloaded if Ise feeds it too much power, probably, and the former can be beaten easily too. Just don't get caught. Should be easier for Ise now. He'll just be in trouble if Saji's teammates interfere (though in that case, Ise's could do the same).

Lucidrago
2017-06-27, 17:53
Yeah, a new technique or two (maybe more) and a new title would be good for Saji right about now, though it does feel kind of bad to have it be in a side-story Volume rather than in one of the main story Volumes.

The fight between Ise and Saji is basically a fight between Ddraig and Vritra and their respective hosts. Ddraig said that even though Vritra was a really troublesome opponent due to his versatility, he could still win against him (IIRC). So that means that between Ddraig and Vritra, at least, Ddraig would always win, albeit with some difficulty because of Vritra's versatility.

Ddraig is a Heavenly Dragon. Vritra is a Dragon King. Which one do you think is stronger? The Dragon Kings as we've seen are equal in power to Ultimate-class devils and Satans. With Tannin being an Ultimate-class devil, yet being Satan-class in raw power. Or Tiamat being Satan-class. They could all be Satan-class. And Ddraig is top-tier god class. There's a difference. Doesn't mean they weren't formidable opponents. Remember that with Vritra's black flames, Saji was able to restrain Loki and Fenrir's sons and was sapping their power. And when Saji achieved Balance Breaker, his black flames were on par with the flames of Incinerate Anthem. No offense, but Saji is not one you can look down on or let down your guard against. He is a very good technique-type due to the nature of his abilities where he can even catch the strongest opponents unawares. Saji isn't one that Issei could beat while getting off scot-free. Saji is constantly training as well and he did go up against a Satan-class opponent. I'm just pissed that Ishibumi has passed over the other two Vritra Sacred Gears that Saji has.

And the reason there wouldn't be a Breakdown the Beast is because there are many Vritra Sacred Gears. Portions of his soul were sealed into those Sacred Gear instead of his whole soul itself like Ddraig and Albion. So Breakdown the Beast would kind of be impossible. Sure his consciousness was awakened after Saji's battle with Issei but still Vritra's soul is still spread out. If it makes you better, consider [Vritra Promotion] as Saji's version of BtB.

But Issei can't just easily shake off techniques like Saji's. Issei is still susceptible to techniques with that being his weakness. There's nothing to feel bad about, everyone has a weakness. If you take that away, then you would just be trying to make Issei invincible. And Vritra's abilities are way too versatile for Issei to just shake off. How does Issei deal with his power being drained away? How does he deal with his ability being nullified? Sure he can just use pure power to overcome it. But this is Saji we're talking about. Why would it go so far to hype out their battle if Issei is just going to beat Saji easily. Saji isn't someone who fights with pure power like Issei. Doesn't mean he won't give Issei the fight of his life.

Sparda4
2017-06-27, 18:04
The other two might be used now you never know. There is a reason for not showing them right off the bat.

Edit:A fight of his life sure Saji's going to give Issei a REAL challange but the outcome is still the same Issei's going to win. And Issei is invincible in DxD G against anybody other then a god or someon e on that level and that is in the false version of DxD G. True version let's not even talk about that because that from is on Prime Ophis level (once Issei can handle it)

Tbolt
2017-06-27, 18:44
Saji is the door mat you wipe your feet on when you go into the house, nothing more.

Lucidrago
2017-06-27, 18:46
And you only use your final trump card only when you need it. DxD G isn't something for Issei to use so casually. Did Issei use DxD G against Barakiel? Did he use it against Dulio? Then why would he use it against Saji when Issei could simply beat him with CCQ? Why would he just use that form considering that it wouldn't even be a battle for the two just a one-sided curbstomp. And even if he did use it, what happens if Sona had a countermeasure against him using it. Him basically falling into a trap or Sona taking advantage of his heavily depleted stamina just from using the form. That form isn't something to be used so casually.

I never said that Issei wasn't going to win. Just don't act like Saji is completely worseless in front of him and can't give him a good fight. Think about how Ddraig, a Heavenly Dragon, said Vritra, a Dragon King, was very troublesome to face. And Saji has even given much stronger opponents a problem due to Vritra's abilities. You think Issei's an exception?

Tbolt
2017-06-27, 18:54
Why would Sona have a countermeasure against Ise in DxD G when other people with way more power than her couldn't do anything against him.

Lucidrago
2017-06-27, 19:39
Power is not the only way to beat power. Power can be beat by outstanding tactics and the sort. Cao Cao had a countermeasure to Juggernaut Drive. Sona isn't one to underestimate Issei's team and we know she's one of the most brilliant minds in this show. She might not have a countermeasure, but don't put it past someone of Sona's caliber.

katokateki
2017-06-27, 20:08
Yeah, I'm afraid Sona might use some dirty tactics against Ise. Not exactly dirty, but who knows. I'm thinking targeting Ravel and Asia.

While Ise may expect Sona to have some honor while fighting or something(the kind that Sairaorg has), she might actually use his weakness just like Cao Cao would. Saji loves Sona enough to ignore Vrita and Ddraig's rivalry. And that could be the deciding factor.

Lucidrago
2017-06-27, 23:37
Yeah, I'm afraid Sona might use some dirty tactics against Ise. Not exactly dirty, but who knows. I'm thinking targeting Ravel and Asia.

While Ise may expect Sona to have some honor while fighting or something(the kind that Sairaorg has), she might actually use his weakness just like Cao Cao would. Saji loves Sona enough to ignore Vrita and Ddraig's rivalry. And that could be the deciding factor.

Dress Break is a dirty tactic. Palingual is a dirty tactic. Worthlessness is a dirty tactic. Hole is a dirty tactic. Divide is a dirty tactic. There are basically too many 'dirty' tactics in DxD for us to obsess over someone using them.

And what rivalry between Ddraig and Vritra? Ddraig and Albion are rivals. It would just be a match between two fellow dragons and two fellow pawns.

Sparda4
2017-06-28, 00:03
Ddraig and Vritra are Rivals this generation because Saji and Issei are but only THIS generation Ddraig and Albion are permanent rivals. And yeah if Sona is in any danger that overrides everything. I'm gonna sound like a jerk but volume 17 level attack and damage again plz Saji hasn't had enough bad luck as it is.
But lets be real here the only way i see Saji beating Issei is if delete gield nullify's the boosted gear Balance breaker and up (Triaina CCQ DxD G) then Saji might win but even then delete field could be overloaded and we're back to square one.

B214
2017-06-28, 02:45
Saji will take a risk and absorb Ise's power into his body hence unlocking a new power.

Well that's just a random idea. Pay no heed to it.

Lucidrago
2017-06-28, 02:48
Ddraig and Vritra are Rivals this generation because Saji and Issei are but only THIS generation Ddraig and Albion are permanent rivals. And yeah if Sona is in any danger that overrides everything. I'm gonna sound like a jerk but volume 17 level attack and damage again plz Saji hasn't had enough bad luck as it is.
But lets be real here the only way i see Saji beating Issei is if delete gield nullify's the boosted gear Balance breaker and up (Triaina CCQ DxD G) then Saji might win but even then delete field could be overloaded and we're back to square one.

What bad luck? As it is, Saji is just average or slightly above in terms of luck. While Issei is extraordinary in the luck category. It's not like Saji has a piano falling on him every second. Saji doesn't have any bad luck. Actually we can say that Issei has more bad luck than he actually does. Saji's bad luck stems from being involved with the Gremory group. Issei gets killed by a fallen angel just for being born with an OP Sacred Gear he knew nothing about on his first date. He keeps drawing supernatural existences towards him which he has to fight most of the time. Most of his clients for his devil's job are weirdos. He couldn't catch a break with all the strong opponents showing up to fight him. Raynare gave him trauma. He got Alphonsed. He lives with beautiful girls that want to have sex with him, but when he's about to take the plunge into adulthood, he mostly gets cockblocked. He has a bunch of male 'rivals' pursuing him. Some of those things you might count as blessings. But he still had to go through those events in the first place. The only bad luck Saji has is due to Issei attracting powerful beings to him. Well and having to eat Sona's cakes.

But, putting that aside, there is no possible way that Issei can defeat Saji while getting off completely scot-free. Saji isn't really a pushover that can just be sent flying like some other opponents.

DragonOsman
2017-06-28, 06:42
Why did you quote my post in your post #70 and say all those things to me, exactly? I already know all of that I and I agree with you. I also mentioned that Ddraig once said that while Vritra was a troublesome opponent for him due to his versatility, he could still beat him if he tried. I also know already that with Ddraig being a Heavenly Dragon and Vritra being a Dragon King, the former is of course much more powerful. I never even doubted that, so I don't know why you're saying that to me.

And we all have the Ise vs. Saji fight from the previous Gremory vs. Sitri match to take into account here, don't we? There, too, even though Ise managed to beat Saji, not only was it a hard fight for him but he'd also taken attacks that had lasting effects and ended up making him ultimately retire from the match after a while. Like the one Absorption Line sucking his blood, or the one sucked his power out. He can't afford to fall victim to these kinds of attacks when fighting Saji this time, though, since this time he's the King of his team and if he retires, his whole team loses. And there's every chance that if he isn't careful while fighting Saji, even if he wins that fight, he could still end up losing the whole match as a result of careless.

As for why Vritra doesn't have Breakdown the Beast. Yes, sure, his soul was split up into separate Sacred Gears, but those Sacred Gears are now one. They were all reunited thanks to Grigori's efforts. That was why Vrtira's consciousness awakened. But notice that the reason it's impossible for Saji to awaken Breakdown the Beast is more due to the fact that Balance Breaker already has Vritra's full power, and plus, their souls and minds become one in that form. Vritra's original, full power is already released in Balance Breaker. With that, there's no room for Breakdown the Beast because a release of the sealed beast's full power is exactly what Breakdown the Beast is supposed to be for.

Also, Lucidrago, in this case, Ddraig and Vritra can be seen as rivals from how Ddraig accepted Vritra's challenge. Look at their quotes in the preview. Do those look to you like things people who aren't rivals would say to each other? Also, don't forget that Ise and Saji are also rivals.

@Tbolt: I'm with Lucidrago on the point of Sona having a way around DxD G mode if Ise were to use it. You really shouldn't put it past her given how smart she is and how good she is at tactics. She also managed to use Ise better than Rias back in Kyoto while Rias was away and she had to command both the Sitri and Gremory groups by herself. Don't underestimate Sona's brain.

@Sparda4: I don't think Ise should use DxD G mode against Saji. For one thing, it'd be overkill and Ise would do a complete curbstomp - it wouldn't even be a fight. For another, if he did use it, and Sona has countermeasures planned against it or against him being exhausted after using it, he'd be in really big trouble. I know Lucidrago also said this, but I also wanted to say it. Just to make a point.

Sparda4
2017-06-28, 08:07
We all know DxD G is overkill that's a fact but there is a chance that delete field would force Issei to enter it.
Here an example Delete Field "Deletes" every form of the boosted gear besides the base form once it's activated Issei seeing the corner he is in (Or Ravel warns Issei) does castling and activates DxD G to see if that will be "Deleted" too. It's overkill yeah but we don't know the cap for Vritra's techniques so we don't know if it's going to cancel the armors or not.

DragonOsman
2017-06-28, 08:15
Now that you mention it, I can totally see Sona luring him into going into DxD G mode, only to corner him even further. As in, a plan that would make them win after he goes into that form and/or after he's exhausted after using his power in that form.

But yeah, it'd certainly be good to see where Delete Field's limitations lie/what its limitations are. Hopefully Ise can beat it without DxD G mode, though.

It does seem to me like you're too much of a Saji/Vritra fan, though. No offense.

Sparda4
2017-06-28, 08:26
I really am a big fan because of his techniques and power, i'll be honest here nowdays there is too much of the Insane levels of power no technique these days and Saji fills in the technique type folder along with Cao Cao but he's more along the lines of inteligent then purely technique type.

Krudelu
2017-06-28, 08:40
As much as people are speculating what may happen in the Team Issei VS Team Sona RG march, I'm wondering what game mode are they gonna get this time, which will affect this matchup drastically.

Lucidrago
2017-06-28, 09:12
I'm also the same. I'm more of a fan of techniques rather than power. Sure I love my Issei vs Sairaorg and Issei vs Riser fights. But it's more interesting to see someone use techniques to put their opponent into a corner or turn the entire battle around. Whether it's due to sheer tactics, effectively researching your opponent and coming up with countermeasures, using counter-based moves or abilities, using your ability or abilities to overwhelm your opponent, controlling the flow of battle, etc. Not everyone is an OP powerhouse like Issei and Sairaorg. So some have to use other methods besides power to defeat these strong opponents. And sometimes, power hasn't been enough for even Issei to defeat some opponents. When Issei used the cross and holy water and boosted them s k he could effectively weaken Riser in their battle to make up for the wide gap in their strength at the time. When Saji was actually kicking Issei's ass in their first battle before Issei went BB. Cao Cao making Azazel, Issei, Vali, and the others his bitches while taking them all on and having to defend Georg and Samael.

I want to see more battles like that. Not just battles where power decides it all.

DragonOsman
2017-06-28, 09:47
I do agree, but we're men, too, aren't we? You can't tell me that fights like Ise vs. Sairaorg don't get your blood boiling. :heh: Well, that and I'm just the type that always likes the main male lead and/or main female lead - unless they happen to be complete jerks, denser than a black hole, or just idiots. Plus I like Dragons.

I do also like tactics, as well as characters who are good at them, but I also like powerful characters. Not to mention Ise's powers are interesting, and he can also be smart/inventive in fights (I need some more of that from him).

Anyway, it'd be good if Ise managed to win in the match against Sitri, no matter how close it is. With good reviews, preferably, though in this case that might be wishful thinking since he's likely to get some bad reviews for agreeing to fight Saji when he should know that it could cost him the whole match if he isn't careful.

But yeah, I especially agree with Krudelu about being interested in what kind of match it's going to be. That will decide most of the odds about who's going to win here. And how.

Sparda4
2017-06-28, 10:12
Issei vs Sairaorg was something no sane man who follows this series didn't get hyped for. And you know what i'm thinking ? This match is a trigger for a lot of things on both parties sides internally.

DragonOsman
2017-06-28, 10:25
Issei vs Sairaorg was something no sane man who follows this series didn't get hyped for. And you know what i'm thinking ? This match is a trigger for a lot of things on both parties sides internally.

When you say, "this match," are you referring to the Gremory vs. Bael match, or to the Issei vs. Sona match in DX4?

As for what you said before that: well said, bro, well said.

Sparda4
2017-06-28, 11:22
The Issei vs Sona one. But seriously it does seem like it.

DragonOsman
2017-06-28, 11:36
What do you feel it's going to be a trigger for, in particular? Some rivalry between Ise and Sona as fellow Kings? Some rivalry between Ravel and Sona as fellow strategists? Other things stand to come up as well, on either side, I guess, but some of them would probably depend on who wins this match.

Sparda4
2017-06-28, 11:48
I'm thinking along the lines of internal conflict and similar things and maybe a rivalry too.

DragonOsman
2017-06-28, 12:05
Internal conflict among teammates in both teams (not across both teams but within the same team, I mean)? Like Ise and Ravel having longer-lasting differences and such? Yeah, I can see that. I just hope if it does happen, they'll end up making their bonds that must stronger afterwards. Rivalries across both teams would be good as well. If Sona and Ise become rivals, it'd be interesting. I'd like to see how Rias reacts to that, since Sona has been her rival since they were kids.

Lucidrago
2017-06-28, 17:28
That's kind of like saying that Rias has a rivalry with Riser and Sairaorg although it's very clear who those two have their mind on in a Rating Game against the Gremory group.

Bennia Lover
2017-06-28, 17:49
We've had a ball game which seems to be a reference to the ball game of Kuoh Academy, a capture the flag game, destroy the object game, and depends on chance game [Dice Game which totally is a chance game because of this fact]. I would love to see a hide and seek game variation. 2 rounds, so each time can hide and seek where you can free captured hiders. If a hider is found and captured, the hider will be held captive and the other hiders can try to freed the captives. If the hider is not captured, they can re-hide if they get away.

3 ways to win for hiders is to have no members captured, making sure the seekers don't capture more than half their team, or by defeating the enemy King. 2 ways for seekers to win is by capturing more than half the hiders or defeating the enemy King.

DragonOsman
2017-06-28, 17:54
@Lucidrago: Good point. But a rivalry between Sona and Ise is still possible in this case.

@Bennia Lover: Looking at that, yeah, it's quite possible that we can try to guess what any match's game type would be out of all the games humans play and at least one of us would be right eventually.

Tbolt
2017-06-28, 19:37
So what everyone is saying is ONLY Ise is going to fight Sona's team? No one has talked about Ise's team being way over the top of Sona's team. And Saji cannot get a super duper secret power up because he has nothing inside him like Ise or Vali and not even Ddraig mentioned any special power.

DragonOsman
2017-06-28, 20:00
Um, that's not what we're saying. You haven't noticed us mention Sona and her brain and tactics even once? Are you serious? Recall how the first Gremory vs. Sitri match went. The Gremory group was stronger back then, too, but what good did that do them in that situation? Power isn't everything. Not always.

And, again: don't underestimate Sona's brain.

Let's not forget how bad Ise's reviews have been in the tournament lately, either.

Tbolt
2017-06-28, 20:15
Recall how the first Gremory vs. Sitri match went.

Yep I sure do Rias beat Sona, one on one.

And how does Ise's reviews up to now have anything to do with anything imporant, as someone said "these are just fun matches" so what ever the commentators or fan's think means absolutely nothing

Bennia Lover
2017-06-28, 20:15
They are fun but also learning experiences so one has to be serious about improving themselves, but also about winning too to further improve as a team.

Tbolt
2017-06-28, 20:22
I will agree with you BL but to a point about improving themselves. But in winning you don't improve it just puts a point to the things you did have worked.

Lucidrago
2017-06-28, 20:33
Yep I sure do Rias beat Sona, one on one.

And how does Ise's reviews up to now have anything to do with anything imporant, as someone said "these are just fun matches" so what ever the commentators or fan's think means absolutely nothing

Only his first three matches had bad reviews. It's not about him winning or losing. It's just that for those first three matches, it should have been a clean, smooth victory for his team. Yet they slipped up, allowed their opponent to find openings, etc. That's where the bad reviews were coming from. Sona had good reviews for her Rating Game in Volume 5 even though she lost. For Rating Games, it's not as much about winning or losing as it is showing a good performance. But there haven't been any bad reviews after his match with Barakiel.

@Tbolt And why do you think that Saji has nothing? Saji has four Sacred Gears, Vritra's soul, and his Balance Breaker. Oh wait. He doesn't have a Longinus like Issei and Vali and doesn't have Ophis' power like those two. One is that Issei ISN'T going to use DxD G. That would be overkill. And plus Sona could possibly have countermeasures against it. And two Saji isn't someone to be approach carelessly or recklessly. Yes, Issei would win. But you're mistaken if it's going to be some one-sided curbstomp. Remember the Gremory vs Sitri Rating Game? Saji didn't have 4 Sacred Gears or a Balance Breaker and yet he still gave Issei trouble. Even if Issei wasn't using his full power, Saji was still holding his ground. If it was some regular technique-type, then yeah Issei could easily defeat him. Saji actually held his own against a Satan-class opponent like Bedeze Abbadon. Issei is the last one that would underestimate Saji.

B214
2017-06-28, 20:36
And how does Ise's reviews up to now have anything to do with anything imporant, as someone said "these are just fun matches" so what ever the commentators or fan's think means absolutely nothing

The preliminary round works base on points, so better review = more points, bad review = less points. There's thousands of team in this tournament, there could be teams that goes undefeated due to facing weaker opponents and teams that loses matches due to facing powerful opponents. So ultimately the reviews becomes the determinant on who moves to the top 16.

Lucidrago
2017-06-28, 20:47
True. So while winning matches will help you gain points, getting easy victories like Rias' team isn't really giving her a whole lot of points. She would need to beat a team with more points than her or a team with extremely strong members that could give her trouble. Winning all those easy matches will mean nothing to Rias if she really isn't facing anyone of significance and her score isn't enough to get her in the Top 16 by the end of the tournament. Issei has faced Barakiel's team and Dulio's team. And he's about to face Sona's team and Team God Alliance. While the tournament has only one month left till it ends and Rias is now just only facing someone of significance which is Vali. Rias could increase her number of wins and get in the Top 16 that way and just get lucky and get opponents that aren't on her team's level. But is that really helping her along? For example, would Sona's and Seekvaira's score have gone down that much considering they faced god teams where it was kind of clear who would be the victor? Now if Issei beats Team God Alliance, even if they had a lower score, his score would skyrocket due to them being a team of powerful gods.

Sparda4
2017-06-28, 22:34
@Tbolt And why do you think that Saji has nothing? Saji has four Sacred Gears, Vritra's soul, and his Balance Breaker. Oh wait. He doesn't have a Longinus like Issei and Vali and doesn't have Ophis' power like those two. One is that Issei ISN'T going to use DxD G. That would be overkill. And plus Sona could possibly have countermeasures against it. And two Saji isn't someone to be approach carelessly or recklessly. Yes, Issei would win. But you're mistaken if it's going to be some one-sided curbstomp. Remember the Gremory vs Sitri Rating Game? Saji didn't have 4 Sacred Gears or a Balance Breaker and yet he still gave Issei trouble. Even if Issei wasn't using his full power, Saji was still holding his ground. If it was some regular technique-type, then yeah Issei could easily defeat him. Saji actually held his own against a Satan-class opponent like Bedeze Abbadon. Issei is the last one that would underestimate Saji.

Agreed and here's another point Saji has a balance breaker that combines all 4 SG's into one. But he still has the potencial to achive a balance breaker with each individual SG and it is even possible Saji can gain something similar to triaina and CCQ.

@Tbolt And i can see your underestimating Saji but everyone has preferences so i'm not going to tell you what to like.

DragonOsman
2017-06-29, 05:29
@Lucidrago: Actually, with the Barakiel fight, all that happened was that the line "To the majority of teams, they are a simple and straightforward terror" was added to everything else people were saying about him and his team. What was already being said didn't change, and it stayed the same actually. Go back and read again, and you'll see what I mean. Where are you guys getting the idea that his reviews got better after he defeated Barakiel? That didn't happen. Not from what I remember.

Here's the quote about it from the end of Volume 22 Life.5:
After this game, the opinions of the critics changed. The voices pointing out that we were not familiar with strategy, and that our experience of the games was shallow did not change, but this was added on to the end of all that.
—To the majority of teams, they are a simple and straightforward terror.

See? Can you say from looking at this that their reviews are better?

And Tbolt, as others have said, considering the fact that they're called Rating Games, the ratings and reviews do matter. Don't conveniently forget stuff just to trash Saji.

@Sparda4: I mostly agree, though I'm not sure about him getting something like Triaina and Cardinal Crimson Queen. They were supposed to be a way for Ise to find an alternative to Juggernaut Drive, which is supposed to be the Heavenly Dragon Sacred Gears' equivalent of Breakdown the Beast. As such, since I find it unlikely for Saji to be able to awaken Breakdown the Beast, I also find it unlikely for him to awaken something similar to Triaina and Cardinal Crimson Queen. But let's wait and see either way because I could turn out to be wrong.

If it's just about him getting his Evil Pieces mutated and gaining Promotion forms with Vritra's power, like the Triaina and Cardinal Crimson Queen, then that I can see.

Tbolt
2017-06-29, 05:35
Well everyone wishing that Saji will suddenly raise above Ise is fine but they will always end up being the people standing in a field yelling "Were number two, Were number two". But oh well I just like reading what people pull out of their...head.

And Osman these are not official rating games, And don't forget what you want to happen means absolutely 0.

DragonOsman
2017-06-29, 05:38
I don't agree with the thought that Saji can surpass Ise. I'm saying Ise will beat him, but that if he isn't careful, it could turn out like the Gremory vs. Sitri match again where Ise ended up retiring because of what Saji had done. The bad thing about here is that if he retired in this match, he'll make his whole team lose. Because he's a King here.

Edit: Also, I added this to the end of my post:
If it's just about him getting his Evil Pieces mutated and gaining Promotion forms with Vritra's power, like the Triaina and Cardinal Crimson Queen, then that I can see.

Sparda4
2017-06-29, 05:42
I'm not saying i want Saji to be stronger then Issei ( That's impossible to begin with even before Issei got his new body) i've said this a few times already but i guess i'll say it again. Power distribution aka MC get's a powerup everybody around him needs to get one also from main characters to side ones this is how it needs to be unless a character has a cap that has been set for them.

DragonOsman
2017-06-29, 06:09
What will you do if Saji's cap has already been reached? Or if it's kind of low and will be reached very soon?

Sparda4
2017-06-29, 10:00
I doubt that Saji's cap has been reached and it wouldn't make sense story wise, where not at the final battle stage so there's still room for improvement. When you reach the final boss then you get the series end power level and the cap along with it, we're not on the final boss so everybody has more room for improvement.

B214
2017-06-29, 10:28
^Agree.

I don't think Ishibumi will let Ise and his close allies reach their cap now. At least not for another decade or so.

DragonOsman
2017-06-29, 12:16
Another decade in-story, you mean? Though Ise's probably still improving three decades from now in-story, and it'd be good if Saji can also keep improving at that point.

But I mean, Saji's power comes from Vritra. And he has no blessings from Ophis or Great Red like Ise and Vali do. Where will he get more power-ups after he's reached the cap of Vritra's power?

Sparda4
2017-06-29, 12:32
Saji is a technique type and with him learning and later mastering it and through learning how to get to know techniques better he can learn more techniques like magic techniques or even demon power techniques.

Hakai
2017-06-29, 12:46
He's a Sacred Gear user, they're known to evolve according to user's wish and they get more powerful with strong emotions(of course there's a limit, for each).

He can also improve his basic Devil abilities/physical strength with continuous training.

I can see him surpassing Vritra's original strength eventually tbh.

DragonOsman
2017-06-29, 13:26
Yeah, you're right. It'd be great if that happened. Would be good to see how strong he can get.

Sparda4
2017-06-29, 13:41
Oh yeah i forgot the Balance Breaker sub species that's something Saji could do (It's kinda ironic that everyone around Issei and Vali with a few exceptions are sub species SG users) Azazel did say it's possible for anyone to do it but it seems Issei and Vali don't have the time (and luck) to create one. It's kinda funny if you think about it.

DragonOsman
2017-06-29, 14:40
They probably have the luck, but yeah, I can agree about the time. But can they really make a sub-species Balance Breaker when they already have the normal kind? And it's the same for Saji if I'm not mistaken, though I guess he could just get individual Balance Breaker forms for each of the four Sacred Gears he has like you've said. If he can make one or more, if not all, of those ones a sub-species Balance Breaker, and he does so, you'll have gotten your wish.

Sparda4
2017-06-29, 14:50
Yeah but even i know that with the max for the series as a WHOLE is <30 or is 30 volumes the chances of Saji getting all 4 Balance Breakers and to get them on the level where Malebolge Vritra Promotion is now are very low. Him getting all 4 Balance Breakers that i can see but the odds of them reaching Malebolge's level is slim at best.

Lucidrago
2017-06-29, 17:55
And plus him using all 4 of his Sacred Gears and combining them into one Balance Breaker would be way stronger than having individual Balance Breakers for each Sacred Gear. Saji could definitely reach Satan-class levels of power as he is now because none of Issei's allies have reached their cap so far with Saji probably being able to overwhelm some Ultimate-class devils. Now he's not going to reach Super Devil levels of power like those that have a Longinus but he could still be one of the strongest devils in the Underworld. If the creator just gave him power-ups now, it would be asspullish and would just make the series like Bleach. Where suddenly the characters are just suddenly getting power-ups out the ass just because. I could see Saji having some new techniques and using his power better and gradually getting stronger, but that's it.

Sparda4
2017-06-29, 18:45
All four at the same time that's Malebolge Vritra Promotion, so we could see each SG on their own or a combination of the 2-3 out of 4.

DragonOsman
2017-06-29, 18:47
@Lucidrago: You're right about a Balance Breaker like Malebolge Vritra Promotion which combines the abilities of all four of the Sacred Gears into one being more powerful than individual Balance Breakers for each of the aforementioned Sacred Gears, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have both (for versatility). It could also be good for having "stages" to his Balance Breaker. I agree with everything else you've said, though.

Edit: One post late.
@Sparda4: Agreed.

Lucidrago
2017-06-29, 21:42
@Osman I don't know what you're expecting. But Saji's BB already has versatility. Balance Breakers are basically a strengthening of the Sacred Gear's ability. Malebolge Vritra Promotion already strengthens all 4 of the abilities of the Vritra Sacred Gears and he's able to use them all at once. There's no point in him getting Balance Breaker for each of the Vritra Sacred Gears because Malebolge Vritra Promotion is the best you're going to get. Basically the Balance Breaker of those Vritra Sacred Gears would just be a strengthening of their abilities which Saji already has in his Malebolge Vritra Promotion. That would just be a downgrade from Saji's current Balance Breaker which is the best possible form.

B214
2017-06-29, 22:48
Just give Saji 4 Artificial SG and have him combine those ASG with his SG.

Crimson406
2017-06-29, 23:21
Sorry for the blurry. But Dx4 cover is Elmenhilde.

https://imgur.com/a/74RXE

katokateki
2017-06-30, 00:21
Is she drinking blood? Damn.

She looks like she's gonna suck the blood out of your cock. Yeah, no.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/17/b2/ce/17b2ceacd7880d473474a9c34adec859.jpg

Sparda4
2017-06-30, 00:30
@Osman I don't know what you're expecting. But Saji's BB already has versatility. Balance Breakers are basically a strengthening of the Sacred Gear's ability. Malebolge Vritra Promotion already strengthens all 4 of the abilities of the Vritra Sacred Gears and he's able to use them all at once. There's no point in him getting Balance Breaker for each of the Vritra Sacred Gears because Malebolge Vritra Promotion is the best you're going to get. Basically the Balance Breaker of those Vritra Sacred Gears would just be a strengthening of their abilities which Saji already has in his Malebolge Vritra Promotion. That would just be a downgrade from Saji's current Balance Breaker which is the best possible form.

Ok let me explain how we were thinking about all 4 separate Balance Breakers. Think of them like the evil piece traits all four in BB would have an advantage over the other while Malebolge would be the "Queen" form. Not so cut and dry now is it ?

Edit: Well Elmenhilde looks like she's kinda horny i bet that's Issei's blood.

Lucidrago
2017-06-30, 00:51
Again that would be a serious downgrade. What's the point in trying to achieve it if he's just merely going backwards. Can you give me a way of his evil pieces combining with Vritra's abilities?

Sparda4
2017-06-30, 01:04
If he get's the other forms then they would strengthen Malebolge and the Evil pieces might be mutated by this point so they could tune themselves to each individual BB.

DragonOsman
2017-06-30, 07:42
^That. And Lucidrago, why are you talking as if we're saying to discard Malebolge Vritra Promotion? We're saying to keep all five Balance Breakers, not discard the one he has now in exchange for four separate Balance Breakers. That wouldn't be a downgrade, that would be allowing him to have something similar to Ise's Triaina and True Queen (if his Evil Pieces have also mutated, which is a possibility). Though Saji would need to get his Balance Breaker(s) linked with Vritra's powers like what happened with Ise, first, though. And it's not set in stone that what happened to Ise can also happen to Saji in the same or even in a similar way. But a guy can hope.

Sparda4
2017-06-30, 07:51
@osman Yeah your right there is a chance Saji could have linked his evil pieces with his sacred gears but the problem is that we don't know if they have mutated at all (I mean look at how rapid Issei's growth had to be just to get 4 mutated) it wouldn't make sense for the pieces to have not mutated but it's still out there until Saji himself says so or Ajuka(him i doubt he has more important stuff to do.)

Lucidrago
2017-06-30, 08:25
I know you guys aren't discarding Malebolge Vritra Promotion. But the whole point of a form is to have it be better than the last form. It just seems you guys want Saji to be a complete knockoff of Issei. Saji's Malebolge Vritra Promotion is 4 Balance Breakers in one. Issei just had one Sacred Gear, the Boosted Gear and had already achieved Balance Breaker. So he went further down that path by having his evil pieces combine with his Boosted Gear. And he had Ddraig's power converted into the traits of the evil pieces. That's basically impossible for Saji. Saji has basically skipped all those steps that Issei had to go through in one go. By achieving his Balance Breaker. And how would Vritra's abilities be enhanced by anything other than the bishop piece? Tell me what way Saji could have linked his evil pieces with his Sacred Gears without making him like Issei? Those other 3 Sacred Gears aren't attached to his soul like Absorption Line is. And Shemhazai said it when Saji was teleported to the battle with Loki about how there wouldn't be a change in Saji's evil pieces just because Absorption Line is still his base. Kiba gained another Sacred Gear and yet his knight piece didn't change. It seems you guys just want Saji to be exactly like Issei, which isn't going to happen.

And Triana was a stepping stone Issei needed to go through before he got to True Queen. Saji's Malebolge Vritra Promotion isn't tied to the traits of the pawn piece like Issei's Illegal Move: Triana and True Queen are. You're comparing apples and oranges. Saji going backwards isn't going to help him. Issei's True Queen mode and Saji's Malebolge Vritra Promotion ARE vastly different.

B214
2017-06-30, 10:32
I know you guys aren't discarding Malebolge Vritra Promotion. But the whole point of a form is to have it be better than the last form. It just seems you guys want Saji to be a complete knockoff of Issei. Saji's Malebolge Vritra Promotion is 4 Balance Breakers in one. Issei just had one Sacred Gear, the Boosted Gear and had already achieved Balance Breaker. So he went further down that path by having his evil pieces combine with his Boosted Gear. And he had Ddraig's power converted into the traits of the evil pieces. That's basically impossible for Saji. Saji has basically skipped all those steps that Issei had to go through in one go. By achieving his Balance Breaker. And how would Vritra's abilities be enhanced by anything other than the bishop piece? Tell me what way Saji could have linked his evil pieces with his Sacred Gears without making him like Issei? Those other 3 Sacred Gears aren't attached to his soul like Absorption Line is. And Shemhazai said it when Saji was teleported to the battle with Loki about how there wouldn't be a change in Saji's evil pieces just because Absorption Line is still his base. Kiba gained another Sacred Gear and yet his knight piece didn't change. It seems you guys just want Saji to be exactly like Issei, which isn't going to happen.

And Triana was a stepping stone Issei needed to go through before he got to True Queen. Saji's Malebolge Vritra Promotion isn't tied to the traits of the pawn piece like Issei's Illegal Move: Triana and True Queen are. You're comparing apples and oranges. Saji going backwards isn't going to help him. Issei's True Queen mode and Saji's Malebolge Vritra Promotion ARE vastly different.

Ise's Balance Breaker the Scale Mail wasn't connected to the Evil Pieces, just like Saji's Balance Breaker now. Besides the Evil Pieces are known to have secrets hidden in them. We're just taking the possibility that Saji could attain a power-up similar to Ise's Triana and True Queen.

DragonOsman
2017-06-30, 10:46
^Yes.

Like I've said many times before, the Triaina and True Queen were meant to be a replacement and alternative to the Juggernaut Drive, with the True Queen being the final result. That's not Balance Breaker, it's way beyond a Balance Breaker because it's supposed to bring out Ddraig's true power once mastered which the Balance Breaker doesn't do. The catch in Saji's case is that for him, his Balance Breaker already does release Vritra's true power. If Saji has to go above that, one way is for some or all of his Evil Pieces to mutate and for him to get armored forms more powerful than his Balance Breaker.

Getting individual Balance Breakers for each of his Sacred Gears and then taking them all and Malebolge Vritra Promotion to the next step might help. Or just taking Malebolge Vritra Promotion to the next step if he can't get those individual Balance Breakers.

Also, I know that it's impossible for Saji to be like Ise - especially now that he's skipped most of the steps Ise had to go through to get Triaina and True Queen like you said (@Lucidrago). But the main point is that Saji needs some power-ups, and him getting something similar to Triaina and True Queen might be good (but, again, "similar" doesn't mean "same" and I'm also not suggesting Breakdown the Beast or similar for Saji, either (because Breakdown the Beast might be impossible given the fact that Vritra's full power is already released in Balance Breaker; what Saji needs is a way to surpass Vritra)).

Lucidrago
2017-06-30, 10:59
Any more and you'll have him become a Super Devil. Has Saji reached his limit with Malebolge Vritra Promotion? Having him gain another form at this point in the story would be an asspull and make this series like Bleach. To be honest, I don't see Saji going beyond Satan-class like most of the others besides the Longinus possessors. Saji is most likely already at Ultimate-class level of power and he constantly trains and improves like everyone else. We shouldn't just assume he has hit his limit with Malebolge Vritra Promotion and needs a ton of new forms. If Ishibumi did that, this story would become like Bleach with no way out and just giving every character a power-up when they don't need it. What does Saji need a power-up for? To become a Super Devil. Just because he's not at Issei's level of insane power doesn't mean he needs a power-up. I'm not opposed to it, but Saji isn't weak in the slightest. Like you guys said, Saji will never be like Issei but it seems you guys want Saji to reach Issei's level of insane power.

Sparda4
2017-06-30, 11:25
I'll say this ONE more time as EVERYBODY forgets this. If the MAIN CHARACTER get's stronger EVERYBODY needs to have the same treatment otherwise it's an imbalance of power and that can't happen here because THEN DxD will become like Bleach. With Saji gaining 4 Balance Breakers 1 for Absorption line, 1 for Blaze Black Flare, 1 for Delete Field and another one for Shadow Prison isn't an asspull because has has the potencial for them and as Osman said the Evil pieces have secrets it's not a plot device for Issei to get stronger(Even tho they were used like that so far)

B214
2017-06-30, 11:25
@Lucidrago. No, i think most of us just want there to be room for improvements for Saji. For me i just think it would be possible because Saji has 4 Pawn Pieces and 4 SG. The numbers are just too fitting. Besides even if Saji does link his EP & SG like Ise and gains a power-up, it doesn't automatically mean the armour will transform. Maybe the promotion creates new weapons or arsenal for Saji to use.

I think you're currently limiting the linking of EP or Triana & CCQ to transformation of armour when it could potentially be something new and unique to Saji only.

DragonOsman
2017-06-30, 13:19
I'll say this ONE more time as EVERYBODY forgets this. If the MAIN CHARACTER get's stronger EVERYBODY needs to have the same treatment otherwise it's an imbalance of power and that can't happen here because THEN DxD will become like Bleach. With Saji gaining 4 Balance Breakers 1 for Absorption line, 1 for Blaze Black Flare, 1 for Delete Field and another one for Shadow Prison isn't an asspull because has has the potencial for them and as Osman said the Evil pieces have secrets it's not a plot device for Issei to get stronger(Even tho they were used like that so far)

Agreed.

Though it's more a Shonen thing than just limited to Bleach, what you said there. Just saying.

By the way, I know I've mentioned that part about Evil Pieces having hidden secrets before, but this time, the one who said it was not me. It was B214. Look here:
Ise's Balance Breaker the Scale Mail wasn't connected to the Evil Pieces, just like Saji's Balance Breaker now. Besides the Evil Pieces are known to have secrets hidden in them. We're just taking the possibility that Saji could attain a power-up similar to Ise's Triana and True Queen.

Anyway, yes, it actually is true that this has been mentioned in the LNs. But Sparda4, we also saw it happen with Kiba when he got his second Sacred Gear and when he combined Holy and Demonic, didn't we? It's not just exclusively being used as a plot device to make Ise stronger.

@Lucidrago. No, i think most of us just want there to be room for improvements for Saji. For me i just think it would be possible because Saji has 4 Pawn Pieces and 4 SG. The numbers are just too fitting. Besides even if Saji does link his EP & SG like Ise and gains a power-up, it doesn't automatically mean the armour will transform. Maybe the promotion creates new weapons or arsenal for Saji to use.

I think you're currently limiting the linking of EP or Triana & CCQ to transformation of armour when it could potentially be something new and unique to Saji only.

Agreed. Like you said, the numbers (4 Pawn Pieces and 4 Sacred Gears) really is too fitting. That, and the stuff he's been through so far should have made at least one of his Pawn Pieces mutate by now.

One thing, though: Triaina and True Queen are all about transformation of armor and about stronger abilities and power, right? What you meant is probably something like saying that Saji's case of linking his Evil Pieces with his Sacred Gear may not be limited to just a transformation of armor like the Triaina and True Queen. Right?

B214
2017-06-30, 13:33
One thing, though: Triaina and True Queen are all about transformation of armor and about stronger abilities and power, right? What you meant is probably something like saying that Saji's case of linking his Evil Pieces with his Sacred Gear may not be limited to just a transformation of armor like the Triaina and True Queen. Right?

Yes, well this thought came since Vritra is said to be the Dragon King in terms of variety of skills, so i just though rather than an armour power-up like Ise, maybe Saji could end up having arsenals instead.

DragonOsman
2017-06-30, 13:38
Yeah, good point. I can certainly see that. So, rather than separate armored forms, it'd be one armored form with four different tricks, one for each of his Evil Pieces? That might be good.

Sparda4
2017-06-30, 13:56
Atleast we all agree on Saji having the potencial to gain balance breakers for all of his
SG's. @Osman I guess i was quick to read everything so i mixed it up sorry bout that.

Crimson406
2017-06-30, 19:33
Dx4 cover (clear version)

https://imgur.com/a/XZsVo

Bennia Lover
2017-06-30, 19:46
Elmenhilde is my favourite DxD girl despite my name [Bennia is my second favourite] so to me this is the best cover

Joeemm
2017-06-30, 22:21
Question. I've read throughout this thread of both Saji and Kiba having more than one sacred gear. However, in the LN it is called a "sub-species". I do remember Saji having an artificial sacred gear but are there any records (I've read all 22 volumes so far) of any individual having more than 1 sacred gear initially? I'd call a sub-species a branch, not a separate one as the sub-species really is a branch from the original.

On the Sona vs Ise match up, we have no idea what type of game they will pick. Who knows, it might just be one like the Dulio vs Ise match up so trying to flesh out whether Draigg and Vitria will have their intended match ups is pointless at this time. Don't you think?

I do believe Saji tries his best and views Ise as a rival, but does Ise really count him as a rival? It will be an interesting game but Sona, while she's touted to be great at techniques and proper usage of her peers, her techniques aren't flawless. Ise and Ravel are still inexperienced, less than Sona so she has the advantage here. But despite that, Sona never plays clean and fair (think back to the match vs Rias where Ise's blood was drained) well, she's a devil anyhow, lol.

With regards to the speculation about Ravel, it's still too early to call. There could be a plethora of reasons why she snapped. However, I do believe the quote from Koneko suggests something contrary to what I've read so far.

But I wouldn't put anything past Ravel and Ise....all they have to do, lol, is just breach the topic of Saji in love with Sona and how she's not responding positively to Saji's advances in the match to cause a severe mental breakdown. How about that option? I wouldn't put it past Ravel.

On a side note, while Ise discarded "domination" in CCQ, "domination" is back in the chant for "DxD G".

Hakai
2017-07-01, 00:05
Dx4 cover (clear version)

https://imgur.com/a/XZsVo

Damn she looks sassy as hell :o

katokateki
2017-07-01, 00:08
Even with that blood drink? My instincts tell me to run away idk why.

Not ignoring your post Joeemm :heh:; but following it xD.

Sparda4
2017-07-01, 03:56
@joeemm Saji has 4 SG's that are the real deal not sub-species, Kiba on the other hand does have a Balance Breaker that is sub-species and that is for Blade Blacksmith it's Glory Drag Trooper while Sword Birth has an Irregular Balance Breaker. Two very different things.

DragonOsman
2017-07-01, 05:06
^Yep. Saji's Sacred Gears aren't artificial, they're the real thing. Grigori gave him the other three from other people, though, while his own is only Absorption Line. But yeah, they're true Sacred Gears. There's no artificial Sacred Gear among the ones Saji has. [And by the way, "sub-species" is a term that refers exclusively to Balance Breakers that are different from the original ones.]

Also, even after reading 22 Volumes, you really need to ask if Ise considers Saji a rival? Of course he does.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-01, 08:43
They've been rivals since Volume 5.

Joeemm
2017-07-01, 09:17
They've been rivals since Volume 5.

The reason I asked is because lately, Ise mostly recognises those that he must surpass as rivals. Yes, at the beginning he did, but power wise, he has already left Saji behind.

DragonOsman
2017-07-01, 11:10
Yeah, but Saji isn't all about power. You do know that, right? Saji's a technique-oriented fighter, and that gives Ise a hard time because he's a bad match up against that kind of fighter. He does consider Saji a rival, due to how formidable he can be with his variety of techniques and tricks. Ddraig also said before that Vritra was troublesome because of his versatility, even though Ddraig himself would still ultimately win in a fight. Ise and Saji are the same way. That's why it's not wrong to say that Saji is still a rival for Ise. Not as big of a rival as Sairaorg or Vali, but still a rival nonetheless. There's also the fight between them in Volume 5. You remember what Saji did to him in that fight? Sure, he beat Saji, but Saji left a lasting mark that cost him the rest of the match afterwards. Ise wasn't using his full power, but that wasn't by choice but by design. It goes to show you that power isn't everything, especially in certain situations, and that you also need techniques and the ability to think on your feat.

Joeemm
2017-07-01, 11:45
@joeemm Saji has 4 SG's that are the real deal not sub-species, Kiba on the other hand does have a Balance Breaker that is sub-species and that is for Blade Blacksmith it's Glory Drag Trooper while Sword Birth has an Irregular Balance Breaker. Two very different things.

Sorry, I don't mean to drag this on, but I'm correct. Saji does NOT have 4 separate sacred gears. I read back through the early novels just to be sure. Absorption Line was the base form of his sacred gear just like how Ise had boosted gear. (LN3)
“Heh! How’s that! This is my Sacred Gear “Absorption Line”! As long as this line is connected to you, your power will continue to be absorbed by my Sacred Gear! Yeah! Until you lose your consciousness that is!”

Sacred Gear! I see! So Saji is a Sacred Gear possessor as well! So if that is connected to you, you continue to have your power absorbed! And you can’t even cut it with a holy-sword! Now I don’t feel like fighting against Saji………

“……Dragon-type Sacred Gear is it!? The most troublesome type. The initial ability isn’t that much of a threat. But when it grows, the destructible power surpasses other Sacred Gears on a whole different level. Scary. Man, it is such a nuisance!”

This grew on him just as Issei's own grew on him.Most sacred gears can't go past Balance Breaker “No, there exists nothing above Balance Breaker. The ultimate and final form of Sacred Gears is the Balance Breaker. However, there are several things inside Sacred Gear that have a magical being sealed in them. A peculiar restraint is applied on those ones. Your Boosted Gear and Vali’s Divine Dividing are examples of that.”

[This spirit. Is the “Prison Dragon” that sleeps in his Sacred Gear responding to Saji’s feelings?]

Dragon-type Sacred Gears are scary, Ddraig. I couldn’t understand what was happening!

LN6 So, Prison Dragon is part of the Sacred Gear of Absorption line as we read here This further grew.

Saji sighs. Hmm? Saji has a bandage around his right arm. A wound?

“What’s with that bandage?”

“Hmm? Oh, this.”

He unwraps the bandage a bit. Then there were many marks that looked like a black snake.

“…….What is that?”

I ask with suspicion and Saji answers.

“When I asked Azazel-sensei, he told me the cause of this happened when I had a battle with you in the last game. Apparently, connecting myself with you - the Sekiryuutei, who reached Balance Breaker - and taking your blood had an influence on my body. It seems like the line which was disconnected from my body also reflected the information of the Sekiryuutei it had taken data of.”

“You serious? Is it bad?”

“No, it seems like it doesn’t have a bad influence. It’s just that it’s appearing on my body. Like this, for example.”

What Saji shows me is a small jewel that has appeared on a part of his arm. …….I thought it was a jewel, but it is isn’t it? It’s identical to the jewel on Vali's, Sensei’s, and my dragon-type Sacred Gears.

“…….Maybe you got cursed?”

When I said that, he made a really disturbed face.

“Uwaa….. Don’t say something which I was having concerns about…… Did you know that Vritra didn’t leave that much of a good legend?”

DragonOsman
2017-07-01, 12:04
Remember that the Prison Dragon Vritra's soul was split up into four different Sacred Gears, one for each ability that he had. Grigori found the other three and put them inside Saji artificially. Don't you remember? He does have four Sacred Gears now, with only one of them being linked to his soul. But having all four of the Sacred Gears caused Vritra's consciousness to awaken, and in Balance Breaker, his and Saji's respective minds and souls fuse.

It's inaccurate to say that the Prison Dragon is only a part of Absorption Line because "Prison Dragon" is Vritra's nickname. And as I had said before, his soul had been split up into four separate Sacred Gears, one for each ability, with Absorption Line being one of them.

Sparda4
2017-07-01, 12:25
Was it stated what color Vritra's aura is ? I'm always thinking it's purple of some similar shade.

Lucidrago
2017-07-01, 12:33
It's black. Tannin is purple. Azi Dahaka is black and purple.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-01, 12:39
The only thing purple of azi dahakas was his scales having a shade of purple. Aura colours are not known.

Sparda4
2017-07-01, 12:52
I might be wrong here but vritra WAS an Asura right ? Some might see where i'm going with this.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-01, 12:59
In original myth he was but in DxD he was aligned with the Asuras, not one of them.

Lucidrago
2017-07-01, 14:59
Well his aura would be black and purple. Like Crom Cruach is black and gold. And Apophis is black and silver.

DragonOsman
2017-07-01, 15:51
Tannin's Dragon Gate is also purple. Vritra's is black. Their Dragon Gate's color and the color of their aura are the same - not a coincidence, I bet. Ddraig's and Alibon's ones are also red and white, respectively. Though, of course, we haven't seen the Evil Dragons' Dragon Gates. We've seen Vritra's probably because he's also a Dragon King.

Lucidrago
2017-07-01, 16:38
Ddraig- Red

Albion- White

Fafnir- Gold

Vritra- Black

Midgardsomir- Gray/Silver??????

Yu-Long- Green

Tiamat- Blue

Tannin- Purple

Grendel- Dark Green

Ladon- ?????????

Niohoggr- ????????

Yamata-no-Orochi- ????????

Crom Cruach- Black and Gold

Apophis- Black and Silver

Azi Dahaka- Black and Purple

CCPDarkraiRules
2017-07-01, 16:55
Yeah, Midgardsomir is Grey on wikia. I think Ladon would be a Dark Brown, Niohoggr a Dark Grey and for Yamata-no-Orochi I can't think of a colour for him.

DragonOsman
2017-07-01, 17:03
Well, what does the LN say on Midgardsormr's color?

But what does this have to do with DX Volume 4?

Sparda4
2017-07-01, 17:19
It's my fault i just asked if it was stated what color Vritra's Aura is. So being that i made us go off topic let me change it back to DX4

So Sairaorg is going up against Cao Cao who do you think will be in Cao Cao's team ? And will Sairaorg include other members now that each pawn is worth 1 (Regulus being 1 for not being a god if he was then he would be 8 pawns)

CCPDarkraiRules
2017-07-01, 17:25
For Cao Cao's team I would think that members of the Hero Faction would become his team. I am going to guess which piece his team members are:

Cao Cao: King

Georg: Queen

Jeanne: Knight

Heracles: Rook

Leonardo: Bishop/Pawn

Perseus: Rook

DragonOsman
2017-07-01, 19:28
Yeah, it'd make sense for people from the Hero Faction to be his teammates. But I won't try to guess what Pieces they'll each be aside from Cao Cao being the King.

As for Sairaorg. I know that Regulus isn't worth 7 Pawns here like he is normally but actually just 1 Pawn instead, but I don't think Sairaorg needs to get more people on his team (does he?). I mean, a full 16 positions on the team being filled doesn't seem to be a requirement. Ise can participate just fine without a full set, can't he?

Sparda4
2017-07-01, 19:34
Yeah Sairaorg has the inteligence to use his pieces well enough but this is Cao Cao we're talking about here that guy is borderline a tactical genius in every aspect except the unorthodox methods (Like how Issei is). So maybe 1 or two more pieces might not hurt.

DragonOsman
2017-07-01, 19:42
I guess so. Well, either way, the fight will be good. I'm looking forward to it.

Sparda4
2017-07-01, 19:46
And you know what i'm thinking we're going to see ? The longinus' original Balance Breaker in this match if we don't then that's going to be used towards the end game of the series.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-01, 19:48
The trouble is Perseus and what he can do. Maybe he might be the possessor of Innovate Clear.

DragonOsman
2017-07-01, 19:52
@Sparda4: Eh? Um, I don't think someone who's already gotten a sub-species Balance Breaker can also get the true Balance Breaker as well. The sub-species is a branch that you get in place of the real thing, after all, isn't it? Cao Cao said he was switch the current destructive ability to something else, though, so we'll probably see that. Along with maybe some other changes.

@Bennia Lover: Yeah. Have we seen Perseus before? He's a new character, isn't he? I want to see him and what he can do, too. And now that you mention it, it really is possible that he's the possessor of Innovate Clear.

Lucidrago
2017-07-01, 19:53
Actually Regulus is still worth 7 pawn pieces. The rule about devils that were reincarnated with more than one evil piece being counted as one evil piece only applied for the bishop, knight, and rook pieces. Because as you have realized, Bova is worth 3 pawn pieces and Ouryuu is worth 5 pawn pieces. Why do you think it's like that? Do you think it'd be fair if there were 8 Ultimate-class devils promoting to queen? Because if the rule you stated above applied to the pawn piece then most teams would register their strongest members as pawns. And as long as that person isn't a god or god-class being, then they would be worth only one pawn piece. Now there are teams that do have 8 pawns on their team like Barakiel does. But every devil would be rushing to gain OP team members that aren't god-class or gods to register them as pawns. So the context of the statement about those originally worth more than one piece being registered as one piece only applied to the knight, bishop, and rook pieces. Pawns in this tournament are given a value based on their strength. But I believe they'll keep the devils that are already pawns as their actual value.

DragonOsman
2017-07-01, 19:57
So Regulus is really still worth 7 Pawns? I see. That's good if so. Thanks for the info. So then Saji is also worth 4 Pawn Pieces and if Ise were participating as a part Rias' team, he'd be worth 8 Pawn Pieces.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-01, 19:58
Bova and Ouryuu are very strong to need to take up that many pieces. The rule about Devils who are multiple pieces applies to Pawns too. Kiba explains the ruling and he said this: "Secondly, the concept of a pawn piece’s value had been invalidated in this tournament. Even if a servant originally possessed multiple pieces, it would become equivalent to having one unless they were a God-class being. A simple example would be Kuroka, who possesses two [Bishop] pieces, but according to the rules of this tournament, she is counted as having only one. That’s why it would be possible for Vali to register both Kuroka and Le Fay-san as his bishops."

Lucidrago
2017-07-01, 23:54
I actually believed that was a mistranslation. I think it would have just been 'a piece's value' rather than 'a pawn piece's value'. Because it was the next paragraph that the pawn was explained. Why would they say the pawn piece's value was invalidated and use Kuroka as an example when she is a bishop? Because in the next paragraph they talked about the limitations of the pawn piece. Again you're talking about making Saji and Regulus worth one pawn piece when it's clear how strong they are. They would really throw off the whole bit they said about a pawn's limitations being strict. Because that would mean you'd have to put those at Saji's and Regulus' level at one pawn piece.

B214
2017-07-02, 05:10
Well, what does the LN say on Midgardsormr's color?

But what does this have to do with DX Volume 4?

Yes Volume 14,

The Dragon Gate is emitting a green colour. Doesn’t the Dragon Gate give out the colour of the Dragon which is being summoned?

I heard that Ddraig is red, Albion is white, Vritra is black, Fafnir is gold, Yu-Long is green, Midgardsormr is grey, Tiamat is blue, and old-man Tannin is purple.

DragonOsman
2017-07-02, 05:37
Well, there we go, then. Thanks.

@Lucidrago: Let's try asking Noman about it, then. If it's a mistranslation, he should be able to tell.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-02, 08:24
Maybe it was supposed to say "A pieces value has been invalidated" then that would make more sense

DragonOsman
2017-07-02, 10:42
Yeah. We should ask n0m@n. Where is he when you need him, anyway?

Krudelu
2017-07-02, 19:34
If anyone can post the original text from it, can anyone post it? I'll try to give it a shot figuring out the text.

EDIT: What I meant by this is the original raw text for the potentially mistranslated text.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-02, 19:41
"Secondly, the concept of a pawn piece’s value had been invalidated in this tournament. Even if a servant originally possessed multiple pieces, it would become equivalent to having one unless they were a God-class being. A simple example would be Kuroka, who possesses two [Bishop] pieces, but according to the rules of this tournament, she is counted as having only one. That’s why it would be possible for Vali to register both Kuroka and Le Fay-san as his bishops."

@Krudelu I already posted this above but I re-posted it for you.

Krudelu
2017-07-02, 20:01
I was referring to the original raw text for the potentially mistranslated phrase. Sorry for not making it clear :/. I'm gonna edit my initial post just to let anyone know

Bennia Lover
2017-07-02, 20:02
Oh well only the translators know where to find that.

cyberdemon
2017-07-03, 09:46
Dx4 cover (clear version)

https://imgur.com/a/XZsVo

hmm those wings. does this means she has officially received an EP from Issei?

Lucidrago
2017-07-03, 09:50
Those are her vampire wings. Devils have black bat-like wings. Vampires also have wings.

DragonOsman
2017-07-03, 10:32
Yeah.

Those wings also look different from Devil wings. Try comparing her wings to Rias's.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-03, 11:56
Unlike Devils who have bat-like wings, vampires possess bat wings that are similar to dragon wings.

katokateki
2017-07-04, 07:38
Unlike Devils who have bat-like wings, vampires possess bat wings that are similar to dragon wings.

Mindfuck. 10char

Bennia Lover
2017-07-04, 21:47
Can't wait for the illustrations

Bennia Lover
2017-07-12, 06:16
There is a special short story that comes with buying DX.4 + Dragon magazine at Animate on Team Zatouji taking on Sun Wukong's team called Team Saiyuki (Journey to the West). Yes. THAT Zatouji, the familiar master.

DragonOsman
2017-07-12, 06:24
Zatouji the Familiar master's team is taking on the First Gen. Sun Wukong's team? Can Familiars be used as Pieces? But anyway, yeah, I want to read it, if only just because I want to know how it goes.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-12, 06:27
If a longinus can be used as a piece [Regulus], familiars sure as hell can but I would Imagine his team is actually full of people. This is very interesting because we get to see how strong he is.

DragonOsman
2017-07-12, 06:36
Yeah, maybe he has people on his team. But in that case I really want to see his team and who's in it.

Lucidrago
2017-07-12, 08:36
Yes. Because most familiars are basically creatures. And basically any creature can be a familiar. Even Tannin can be a familiar. And Fenrir could even be a familiar. And creatures can also be reincarnated as devils.

Darksider555
2017-07-12, 10:56
……You fraud!!

He’s right! You must have used the [King]’s piece! No wonder you are strong even though you don’t have any demonic powers!!

You are the heir of the house of the Great King after all! It wouldn’t be weird if you had used it!


They said those things to me but this is practically my fate of being born in the house of Bael.

――But speaking truthfully, I am feeling happy about it..

It was no easy path……but even so, many of them think of me as a Devil of the Bael and they see me as the heir of Bael.


――「Purple King of Lions」 team leader, Sairaorg Bael

Does this mean that Sairaorg was using the King Piece the entire time?! That would be a very tragic turn of events. And it would ruin Sairaorg's character. After all he worked for his strength. I wonder how this will play out.

CCPDarkraiRules
2017-07-12, 11:09
No, it just the public thinking along the lines of this: "Huh, that Sairaorg Bael is abnormally strong despite having no demonic powers, he must have access to the King Piece being the heir of the house of the Great King"

Darksider555
2017-07-12, 11:15
Oh, I misread it. Thanks for the correction. But those critics have no valid argument since Diehauser Belial revealed the info on the King Piece and Sairaorg wasn't among them. Plus Ajuka could just reveal how many King Pieces were in circulation.

CCPDarkraiRules
2017-07-12, 11:21
I think its the public who calling Sairaorg a fraud not the critics who I think would beforehand confirm whether Sairaorg's power is true or not.

Darksider555
2017-07-12, 11:58
Well he was popular before the whole King Piece fiasco took place. And it was pretty much an open secret that his own father hated him because he lacked Power Of Destruction. But Sairaorg was able gain the respect of the public because he fought the Khaos Brigade and through Rating Games.

DragonOsman
2017-07-12, 13:52
Yeah, it's the public that's thinking that. I also think the same (that it's the public).

Darksider555
2017-07-12, 16:38
Another interesting bit surrounding Ise Vs Saji is that Saji wasn't able to communicate with Vritra like Ise was able to communicate with Ddraig which gave Ise unique insight into the capabilities of his Sacred Gear. Plus Saji also lacked his Balance Breaker at that time.

If Saji wasn't implanted with other with other Vritra Sacred Gears, what kind of Balance Breaker do you guys do you think he would achive? It would no doubt be weaker.

DragonOsman
2017-07-12, 17:21
He would've gotten a Balance Breaker for just Absorption Line, obviously, and Vritra's consciousness wouldn't have been there.

Lucidrago
2017-07-12, 17:22
Well they probably don't understand how the king piece even works. Because it simply said a king piece could strengthen the king from 10 to 100 times. My impression is that it increases the demonic powers of the king. Because those that are born pureblood devils are born with demonic powers and some with unique abilities. Some are born with more talent AKA demonic powers than others. Some are blessed with Satan-class demonic powers like Grayfia, Diehauser, Serafall, Falbium, and probably Rias. Some were just born with an insane amount of demonic powers that far surpasses a Satan like Sirzechs, Ajuka, Rizevim, and probably Vali and Millicas. Those are very rare cases. And then there are those that are born high-class devils that get the short end of the stick like Sairaorg and are born with low-class demonic powers. That's a super-rare case. Because I would say the majority of high-class pureblood devils of noble origin are born with high-class demonic powers. And there are some that are born with Ultimate-class demonic powers. And then there are the rare cases that are born with Satan-class demonic powers. And it would be a super-rare case for a high-class pureblood devil of noble origin to not have at least high-class demonic powers, but it happens.

Now where does the king piece come in? The strength of these high-class pureblood devils come from their demonic powers they were born with and their unique abilities if they have one. A devil's unique ability(like POD, Worthlessness) is basically fueled by demonic powers. Some have greater demonic powers than others which is why it seems like they can use their unique abilities to such great effect. That's why Diehauser is described as the first monster from the House of Belial. Not because of Worthlessness. But because of his Satan-class demonic powers+Worthlessness. Worthlessness has existed far before Diehauser was born. Diehauser's able to use it to such great effects because of his immense demonic powers. Same with the Phenex and their regeneration. Same with the Baels and POD.

So with Bedeze Abbadon and Roygun Belphegor, they were most likely born with just high-class demonic powers and nothing more than that. They weren't blessed with an extraordinary amunt of demonic powers. They wanted to be able to compete with the 'monsters' in the Top 10, so they used the king piece to increase their demonic powers to Satan-class levels. Before getting the king piece, Bedeze couldn't use Hole the way he does now(or did). So for high-class pureblood devils it's their amount of demonic powers and unique abilities that determine their strength.

DragonOsman
2017-07-12, 18:22
Yeah. Great post.

I think I mostly agree, but I have to say something. I'm sure that even if Bedeze and Roygun couldn't have used their respective clan abilities as well as they did because of the King Piece if they didn't have the King Piece, I do think they would at least still have been able to use those abilities. Just at a lower level. I'm sorry, but the way you worded it made it sound like you doubted if they could use those abilities at all because their Demonic Powers weren't that high. If you didn't mean that, I'm sorry.

As for Sairaorg, yeah, he probably couldn't have used the King Piece at all anyway since he doesn't have any Demonic Power.

Lucidrago
2017-07-12, 18:29
Yeah sorry for wording it that way. That's what I meant. For example, when Sirzechs was fighting Crusuery Asmodeus and he used his POD to destroy Ophis' snake within Crusuery's body and his demonic powers just automatically weakened since the thing giving him those immense demonic powers was destroyed. Same would happen if the king piece was removed from a devil.

And I would say that Sairaorg could use the king piece and get the demonic powers worthy of a high-class devil. Since he barely has any demonic powers it would work. Well we have no idea what level of demonic powers the king piece would give him. But the king piece just wouldn't work on devils that have an evil piece inside them already or those devils that simply have too much demonic powers. And a speculation, but I think if you have something powerful within you like a Longinus with a Heavenly Dragon sealed within it, then getting a king piece would just be disastrous. Boosted Gear+King Piece+8 Mutation Pawn Pieces+Ophis' and Great Red's power=Disastrous situation which is most likely immediate death. Well it's not like Issei can get a king piece anyway. And with Regulus, it really isn't Sairaorg's Sacred Gear as it isn't bonded to his soul but simply an independent being who Sairaorg can use. Well Sairaorg is the possessor, but Regulus Nemea isn't bonded to his soul like Issei's Boosted Gear.

DragonOsman
2017-07-12, 19:47
It's been stated that Sairoarg has no Demonic Power, though. An extremely rare case among Devils. it's the reason why he has to rely on his own physical strength and touki. I'm not sure if the King Piece would work on someone like that.

As for Ise, the King Piece was already no good for him from the moment he was reincarnated, Boosted Gear or no. You stated the reason yourself: the King Piece won't work on someone that already has one or more Evil Piece(s) inside him/her.

Lucidrago
2017-07-12, 21:44
Every devil has demonic powers. Sairaorg just barely has any demonic powers. Which I speculate has never been seen among someone born amongst the 72 Pillars and Extra Demons. And that has never been seen before in the House of Bael. He was born with no Power of Destruction. And even if he had it, with his low demonic powers it's not like he could do anything with it. Sairaorg was supposed to be born with at least high-class demonic powers. But he was born with a very low amount of demonic powers.

DragonOsman
2017-07-13, 06:58
No, I'm pretty sure it said he has none. I'll bring you a quote if I can.

Edit: Well, I'll have to keep looking to find a quote that explicitly says that, if there is one, but for now, look at these:
"I have three weapons. Strongly built body, fast legs, martial arts—Here I come!"
Note: No mention of Demonic Power.

It's been implied even if it's not explicitly stated. I mean, why would he rely on only his body and physical attacks alone (along with the touki he built up himself) if he had even a bit of Demonic Power to train and use? It's been stated time and time again that he relies only on his own body and martial arts. No Demonic Power. And even if he has "barely any", it really means he doesn't have more than just a very small, puny amount, lower than a regular Low-class Devil's. It's so little that it's like it's not there, or it's really not there at all. One or the other.

Lucidrago
2017-07-13, 07:41
I saw the quote and then it said that he barely had any demonic powers in the next paragraph or two. Every devil has demonic powers. Even someone like Sairaorg although some might consider his demonic powers nearly nonexistent

Sairaorg-san was born of his father who is the head of the house of Bael and his mother who came from the noble house of Vapula.

It seems like people around them became overjoyed because the next heir was born.

But Sairaorg-san was faced with a shocking truth immediately.

-He has barely any demonic-powers, and he didn’t carry the special trait of Bael, the power of destruction.

Each generation of the head was blessed with demonic-powers, and it was absolute for them to have the power of destruction. But Sairaorg-san was born without it.

Sairaorg-san’s father who was in despair directed his anger to his wife.

[Where did you leave our clan’s power of destruction, and how did you give birth to such a defect!?]

-Defect.

Just because he was born without demonic-power and the power of destruction, Sairaorg-san was abandoned by his father. His mother who gave birth to him also was despised as well.


For a devil who barely has any demonic-power, they wouldn’t get treated well by others no matter where they go.

Even when he moved to the countryside, Sairaorg-san became the target of discrimination. Because he has less demonic-power than the low-class and medium-class devils his age, he was bullied by those devils.

All of those quotes come from Volume 10 Life 1. There was only one part that said Sairaorg had no demonic powers. For some devils, his demonic powers are nonexistent. He does have demonic powers, but barely. Every devil has demonic powers. Just different amounts. To his father, Sairaorg wasn't born with at least high-class demonic powers and wasn't born with POD which deemed him a failure in his eyes. So the little demonic power Sairaorg has could be counted as not having demonic powers.

DragonOsman
2017-07-13, 08:33
Yeah. The wording in Volume 10 is really confusing, but it does seem like he has "barely any". It's still too low to count, though. Even Ise has more than him.

Sparda4
2017-07-13, 08:56
Well at this point Sairaorg doesn't even want demonic power imo. He trained his body to extremes because he wanted to show that he will kick everyone's ass who looks down on him because he doesn't have the same amount of demonic power as the rest of the devil society.

DragonOsman
2017-07-13, 09:06
^True. And that just makes him all the more badass IMO. He's a great guy and a great rival (to Ise, of course (for the "rival" part)).

Lucidrago
2017-07-13, 10:16
Well I think Issei just has the demonic powers of an average low-class devil. Remember when he couldn't even teleport because his demonic powers were too low which was probably due to only one of Issei's pawn pieces' power being released due to how pathetic Issei was. I really don't think his demonic powers went up all that much due to the rest of his pawn pieces being released. Because even low-class devils with low-class demonic powers can cover their hand in aura and teleport through a magic circle. It's his Boosted Gear that has been increasing his demonic powers. Before he entered Balance Breaker, Issei had to wait and Boost a few times before he was able to do anything like fire off Dragon Shot and the like in a fight. And his Balance Breaker automatically boosts all his stats like his physical strength, speed, durability, and demonic powers way past what it normally is. So I would say regularly Issei has the demonic powers of an average low-class devil. And Sairaorg has even less than that.

DragonOsman
2017-07-13, 10:26
Probably, but I like to think that maybe Ise's Demonic Power is closer to a Mid-class Devil. I hope it's true. Ise's Demonic Power may have gone up from his Pieces mutating, after all. I know that Gasper's Demonic Power isn't that high even though he has a Mutation Piece, but still. [I mean, after all, it depends on your talent in Demonic Power and Ise's is really low. Asia's talent is greater, so her Demonic Power is a bit higher than average.] You'd think Ise would be a bit more talented in that area considering how it just requires imagination. You don't even need to be smart and/or good at math like with magic. Ajuka's the only one who modeled his Demonic Power closer to magic.

Sparda4
2017-07-13, 10:55
Well demonic power could be like a muscle. The more you use it and heavier the tax is on the reserves they might increase, but it is true with Issei the boosted gear plays a very big part in his demonic power. Wait a minute, can't Sairaorg use portals ?

DragonOsman
2017-07-13, 11:08
Sairoarg doesn't have that kind of Demonic Power ability. The one he could've inherited, he didn't (Power of Destruction). He did inherit the Vapula clan trait, but that's just the ability to tame lions (though it's useful since it did give him the Regulus Nemea).

I'm not sure how much Demonic Power can be raised through training. It probably can be, though. But if, even with all the training he does, Sairaorg couldn't raise his, then it might be impossible unless it depends on whether or not you actually try to raise it. Ise probably did, though difference isn't that much noticeable.

Lucidrago
2017-07-13, 11:20
I just believe that demonic powers is fixed when you are born or reincarnated as a devil. It never explicitly stated how much demonic powers the reincarnated devils have. But any devil can use a magic circle. That's one of the simplest things to do with your demonic powers and you really don't need a lot of demonic powers for that. Issei has the Boosted Gear, which is what raises his demonic powers. But still I believe Issei's base demonic powers is that of the average low-class devil. He even needs to boost the fire he creates within his stomach to use it when not in Balance Breaker state.

DragonOsman
2017-07-13, 12:40
I'm not sure if it's a fact, but what Hakaishin told me was that all reincarnated Devils generally receive Demonic Power at the level of a Low-class Devil, though there are exceptions where a reincarnated Devil has somewhat higher Demonic Power than that if they are talented (like Asia). But I just feel that Ise's Pieces mutating should've made it higher. So if it was that of an average Low-class Devil at first, after his Pieces mutated, it should've been raised to around Low- to Mid-class level, or maybe low-tier Mid-class or around there.

Darksider555
2017-07-13, 13:38
Depending on how they specialise their abilities, the amount of demonic power is determined by the reincarnated devils strength. For instance both Ise and Saji had low amounts of demonic power, so much so that Saji drained his own lifeforce to compensate in Gremory vs Sitri. Somelike, Kiba for instance has moderate amounts of demonic power; enough to create illusions but not offense demonic power. Akeno's Bishop aspect in her Queen piece + her Fallen angel status mean that her power is comparable to that of Rias who is a High Class devil.

But it's worth noting that training can improve the strength and amounts of demonic power reserves one can contain within themselves. But we've only seen this with Rias and Akeno. Ise did increase his demonic power at least to Mid Class devil but whether that was because his Evil pieces were unlocked or through training remains undetermined.

Lucidrago
2017-07-13, 14:51
All reincarnated devils start out as low-class devil. It doesn't mean they all have low-class demonic powers. I would say it varies from person to person upon being reincarnated. Like it varies among devils that are born devils.

And I don't think Rias increased her demonic power. Well she probably increased the demonic powers she can use at a time. She has immense demonic powers but she's still young. So she need time to hone and develop her demonic powers. She needs a lot of time to collect a huge amount of demonic powers like Extinguish Star which I speculate will get better in the future. I mean that the time it takes to collect and focus that amount of demonic powers will gradually reduce as Rias hones and develops her demonic powers through time. She already has an insane level of demonic powers but how much she can basically use in one attack is limited due to her inexperience and her young age. To use more powerful attacks she needs to collect a huge amount of demonic powers. Someone like Sirzechs could most likely do that in an instant. If you could train to develop demonic powers then Sairaorg should have immense demonic powers. It's not like devils are Desperados from Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry.

I still believe Issei has low-class demonic powers. There's nothing wrong with that. He has the Boosted Gear which increases his demonic powers to high-class level or higher.

Joeemm
2017-07-13, 18:13
Ise's demonic power is still very low, so low that he can't even fly with his demonic wings. Each time he had to fly, he entered Scale Mail mode to fly. After he was dragonified (got his new body from Great Red with Ophis help) he was able to fly using his dragon wings. Even Ise's dragon shots come mostly from being a dragon. When using his demonic powers to create dragon shots, the most I've read he being able to perform is two shots before he runs out. So while he has more than Sairorg, his demonic power is still low. He can't even use his demonic wings to fly like I stated earlier.

Lucidrago
2017-07-13, 19:54
But yet Sairaorg can fly using his devil wings.

DragonOsman
2017-07-14, 06:15
Yeah. The reason he can't fly with his Devil wings has nothing to do with the amount of Demonic Power he has. The reason is that he isn't compatible with his Devil wings. His compatibility with his Dragon wings is greater. [But even then, Ddraig has take care of the flying]

@Lucidrago: Rakudai Kishi no Eiyuutan's "Eiyuutan" part is not supposed to be translated as "Cavalry". That's a mistranslation. It's supposed to be "Chivalry".

I know there's nothing wrong with being a Low-class Devil, but I also know that Ise's Pawn Pieces mutated. And we also don't know how much a difference it makes in how much Demonic Power you have if you train, if any at all. But like I said before, it could also require the person to actually try to increase his/her Demonic Power, and since Sairaorg probably doesn't care, he doesn't try to increase his.

And speaking of Rakudai. No one in DxD ever said that a Devil can't increase his/her Demonic Power like how it was said in Rakudai that Blazers (normally) can't increase their mana capacity (unless they undergo Brute Soul and become Desperado). That's why, in DxD's case, it's not really known whether or not one's amount of Demonic Power is fixed from birth.

Lucidrago
2017-07-14, 07:14
Again Issei even said in Volume 5 he had low amounts of demonic powers while fighting Saji.

We had better prepare ourselves. Should I use my Sacred Gear normally? Or should I use Balance Breaker? I wavered between them, but I still didn’t know what kinds of abilities the opponents’ had.

My strong point was—my simple physical strength that I prided myself on. I barely had any magic. Even if I increased my magic power with my Sacred Gear, I would quickly run out of gas…Even if I had strong power, if I mistakenly used it, I would instantly lose!

…I was always in a dangerous situation. I had to bear at least that in mind.

I saw Saji point his hand at me and trying to fire a magic bullet at me! He intended to deliver the finishing blow right away! I quickly got up and rolled over to the side!

Don!

A big hole was made in the floor from the magic blast he fired! What power! It was completely a finishing blow move! It’s dangerous! I was going to exit the stage before I activated Balance Breaker. I wouldn’t be able to say anything about what happened to Gasper then!

“…Not bad, Saji.”

“Hyoudou. I’m serious. I'm going to seriously defeat you, the Sekiryuutei.”

—. Saji’s eyes were filled with resolution. I could tell that his seriousness was tremendous.

Then, Saji raised his hand and tried to fire another magic blast.

Don!

He fired another high-volume mass of magic! The size of it wasn’t considerable, though. Mostly like, he was following the rule that said that not to damage the building as much as possible.

But, the attack was powerful enough to take down an opponent like me!

I dodged, and the store I was standing at before was destroyed by the blast of magic.

However, how did Saji create such an attack? I had heard that he had low magic like me. Yet, how was he able to release such power?

At that moment, I opened my eyes widely. Because Saji’s Sacred Gear had its line connected to his chest— to his heart.

—The source of Saji’s continuous attacks was his life-force!?

“Saji! You! Are you converting your own life-force…into magic power!?”

“That’s right. With my low magic, this is the only way for me to shoot powerful attacks. I convert my life-force into magic power using my Sacred Gear’s ability. It’s just as you see. I’m [risking my life], as it were.”

Both of those quotes cone from Volume 5 Life 4. The first one is while Issei and Koneko are on their way approaching Saji and Nimura. He's thinking about who the opponents were that they would be facing. The second quote is during his battle against Saji.

I don't believe it's possible to increase demonic powers if you train. Issei has the Boosted Gear, which doubles power including demonic power. Saji converted his life force into demonic powers using his Sacred Gear to connect a line to his heart. The only other means I've seen of increasing demonic powers is the king piece and Ophis' snake. I just think that Issei gained more control of his demonic powers but his base is still low-class. Any devil can teleport using a magic circle. Now with Rias and Akeno, their powers were enhanced by sucking the dragon aura out of Issei's finger. Besides that I believe there is no way to increase demonic powers.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-14, 08:48
Issei's demonic power isn't great offensively, but it is defensively. His demonic power will never be like Sirzechs', Vali's, or Ajuka's offensive wise, but it is high enough to create a seemingly impossible technique like breast language. His demonic power is great for defence not offence.

DragonOsman
2017-07-14, 08:48
@Lucidrago: That's Volume 5, though. It's before the power from all eight of his Pawn Pieces was liberated, if I'm not mistaken. You're probably right about Demonic Power being able to be raised, but at least if I'm right, his Demonic Power at that time wasn't what it was after his Pieces' power was released. And now his Pieces have mutated. I know all Devils can travel through a magic circle, so you don't need to keep repeating that. I'm just saying that it's possible that his Demonic Power went up at least a bit when his Pieces mutated. Reincarnating stronger beings requires Mutation Pieces, and all eight of Ise's Pawn Pieces are Mutation Pieces (not confirmed yet, but it's likely).

Edit: One post late.
@Bennia Lover: Eh? Dress Break is offensive, though, isn't it? Pailingual may be a passive ability that isn't offensive, but I wouldn't necessarily call it defensive, either. The ability to talk to breasts isn't defensive, after all.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-14, 08:54
Yes it is. An ability to learn your opponents next move is defensive because it prepares you to defend yourself or others.

Joeemm
2017-07-14, 08:57
The mutation of Ise's pieces weren't brought about by demonic power but by the 'evolution' of the sacred gear he has. Remember, the first mutation was brought about by the incomplete Juggernaught Drive but because of the incomplete nature of it, something got messed up and Azuka had to fix it. Ise has been undergoing abnormal growth through his sacred gear and the last change was most definitely brought on by Dragon Deification. Even Azuka pointed that out. Anyways, the author hasn't laid out a clear cut method of how the demonic powers come about especially for reincarnated devils; what factors affect them and what doesn't so all we can do is speculate. But we're getting a bit off topic there I think.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-14, 09:02
I'm wondering if Elmenhilde can fly by herself or she fly's in this volume thanks to Issei's blood. Most likely she can fly by herself.

DragonOsman
2017-07-14, 09:26
@Joeemm: Please don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to say that his Pieces mutated because of his Demonic Power increasing. I'm proposing the opposite (Mutation causing power to increase). But one thing, though: Ise's Pieces mutated after Ajuka's adjustments, not as a direct result of Juggernaut Drive. Juggernaut Drive messed up the code in Ise's Pieces' program, and that was hurting Ise. Ajuka had to make those adjustments to allow the Pieces' traits to mix with the power of the Sekiryuutei. That's why the four Pieces mutated in the way that they did. They carry different values, so that each one represents one type of Piece that a Pawn can turn into using Promotion. Ajuka's adjustments made it so that the Evil Pieces could adjust to the power of the Sekiryuutei, and that allowed the original power of the Sekiryuutei that was released with the Triaina and True Queen to possess the characteristics and traits of the Pawn Piece. Ajuka said that he didn't know what the results of his adjustments would be, though, meaning it wasn't intentional on his part. He just wanted to leave "something" in there as a gift to Ise while fixing the code that the Juggernaut Drive messed up, but even he didn't know what that "something" would end up being.

As for how reincarnated Devils get Demonic Power, isn't it through their Evil Pieces? We already know that. They get power from the Evil Pieces used to reincarnate them. And yes, it's just speculation on my part that Ise's power may have risen from his Pieces mutating. But I feel that it's a reasonable thought, though I don't think it rose that much. Probably rose to somewhere between Low- to Mid-class or somewhere around there.

Ise was able to use Dress Break and Pailingual when he'd just gotten back after his body was remade and he hasn't asked Rias to give him his Pieces back yet, but I think that that was an author mistake. Ishibumi probably just forgot. Either that or Ise's Evil Pieces are unique to him in that they are now linked to his soul. Ajuka did say that they can no longer be used on anyone except Ise. He said it like it's something that's never happened before, from how I read it. But, even when they're linked to his soul, they apparently still need to be inside him for him to be reincarnated into a Devil. So it could still be that Ishibumi messed up (though his Pieces could still be linked to his soul).

About Elmenhilde: Yes, I think she can fly on her own.

Edit: To add to what I said before about the adjustments to Ise's Evil Pieces: Ajuka's main intention was to allow the Pieces to be able to handle Ise's erratic growth, as well as the power of Sekiryuutei. That's why he made the adjustments. I forgot to mention that earlier.

Lucidrago
2017-07-14, 10:36
@Bennia We're talking about the amount of Issei's base demonic powers not the techniques he created due to his perverted nature. Defensively? Sirzechs, Ajuka, and Vali can easily use defensive magic circles to defend them from attacks. Dress Break and Palingual are just countermeasures against females. You're comparing Issei who has low demonic powers to three devils who have the most demonic powers out of all the devils today. It's not about Issei's demonic powers being defensive-based because look at Dragon Shot and all its variants. It's just about Issei's low-class demonic powers. Issei creating those techniques is due to his extremely perverted nature not because of his demonic powers being based on defense. Look at Ajuka's Kankara Formula and Rizevim's Sacred Gear Canceller. Those would be considered impossible techniques right? Issei being a pervert has no bearing on his amount of demonic powers.

And the Boosted Gear allows Issei to increase his demonic powers due to Boost. And Issei bding in Balance Breaker state increases his stats including his demonic powers when he's wearing the armor. When Issei's not in Balance.Breaker, he has to Boost for quite a while before he has enough demonic power to use Dress Break or Palingual. When in Balance Breaker state, he has enough demonic power to use it. And Dragon Shot, Dragon Blaster, Crimson Blaster, and Infinity Blaster are his demonic powers infused with Ddraig's aura. And are you saying those aren't great offensively. It's not about Issei's demonic powers being suited for offense or defense, it's just that Issei's base demonic powers are low.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-14, 11:01
@Lucidrago He created breast language because he is perverted yes, but just because he didn't intend it to be defensive, does not mean it is not. It's a case of 'something created for an unintended purpose'.

Lucidrago
2017-07-14, 13:33
Not saying it isn't but Dress Break and Palingual have no bear o ng on thd fact that Issei's base demonic powers are low. So how does Dress Break and Palingual THEMSELVES defend you against attacks? Do the abilities themselves block attacks? If a female outsmarts Palingual and attacks him then how well can Palingual defend against the attack. I understand what you're saying about how it allows you to defend against an attack by reading a girl's breasts. But allowing someone to defend against an attack and defending against an attack are two different things.

DragonOsman
2017-07-14, 15:48
He isn't saying that Dress Break is defensive. He never even mentioned Dress Break in that context.

@Bennia Lover: I'm with Lucidrago on the point of Pailingual. It allows Ise to know what a girl is thinking, but if the girl in question manages to outsmart it, Pailingual won't defend him from the next attack(s). Hence, it's not a defensive technique.

Also, yes, again, look at Dragon Shot. That's an attack that uses Demonic Power, and it's offensive. And while it's perverted, Dress Break, too, is offensive. That makes two offensive Demonic Power moves and one passive one (Pailingual is passive, not defensive).

Ise's amount of Demonic Power is what's being talked about here. And there's also nothing to explicitly tell us what the nature of his Demonic Power is, but I'd be wiling to venture a guess and say it's offensive rather than defensive.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-14, 21:16
@Dragon Someone bypassing a defence does not mean that defence is no longer a defence. Also, a passive ability is an ability that's always active and activates automatically. Breast Language is therefore not a passive ability.

Joeemm
2017-07-14, 22:19
Leaving the long debate aside of Ise's base demonic power, do you think we'll get to see Elmenhilde become a permanent member of Ise's team? I know she's on "observation" status but in the spoilers she participated in that match. What do you guys think? Or was she just on a test run?

Bennia Lover
2017-07-14, 23:00
I think yes she will. Her power to absorb abilities or powers through drinking blood is useful. She can drink the blood of her opponent and gain one of their powers. She doesn't even need to bite them, just one drop of blood spilled onto her will be enough.

DragonOsman
2017-07-15, 03:26
How she get their blood without biting them? Unless her teammates can somehow get a vial of the blood for her, she'll have to bite the target to get the blood. But yeah, her ability is definitely useful and since she did participate in that battle according to the spoilers, there's a chance she's already on the team officially by then.

About Pailingual, @Bennia Lover: It's not a defensive move because it doesn't defend against attacks in its own; it only lets Ise know what the girl whose breasts' voice he's listening to will do next and then it's up to him how he'll act to avoid the attack or defend himself. How he defends himself or whatever else he does in response to the knowledge is completely up to him. If Pailingual were really a defensive move, it'd protect him from attacks on its own because that's what defensive moves do. But it's not like that at all. I hope you see now how flawed your argument is.

Bennia Lover
2017-07-15, 04:19
Elmenhilde can get opponents blood off let's say, Issei's clothing if they spit blood onto them but that would be rare.

CCPDarkraiRules
2017-07-15, 05:46
n0m@n posted this awhile back:

Team Ise:
King - Ise
Queen - Grayfia
Rook 1 - Rossweisse (depending on situation she's a Bishop)
Rook 2 - No official member
Knight 1 - Xenovia
Knight 2 - Irina
Bishop 1 - Asia
Bishop 2 - Ravel (depending on situation a pawn)
Pawn (3 piece) - Bova (depending on situation a Rook. He was a Rook during the match against Dulio)
Pawn (5 Piece) - Nakiri Ouryuu (depending on situation a Rook)
---------------------
Benchwarmer - Elmenhilde (worth 2 Pawn Pieces. Participated in the match against Dulio)
??? - Roygun Belphegor

So I think Elmenhilde is a part of Ise's team. Also I think if you have free pieces in the tournament you can swap people around as an example for Ise's match against Dulio Bova who is registered as a Pawn was a Rook for it as showed above.

Lucidrago
2017-07-15, 06:32
Yeah you can swap people around. You can have a whole pool of teammates to choose from like Dulio has all(or at least most) of the remaining Brave Saints at his disposal. And Issei has Roygun AND her peerage at his disposal.

And I just imagined a hilarious situation. During the Issei vs Sona Rating Game where Elmenhilde bites Saji and drinks his blood. Then she gets excited while drinking Saji's blood and falls for him. I know that would never happen because of her already drinking Issei's blood and being in his harem. But it'd be funny if she was forced to choose between Issei and Saji.

DragonOsman
2017-07-15, 06:32
Yeah, Elmenhilde is on the team, but she's listed as a benchwarmer even though she did participate in the match against Dulio as a Pawn? O.o

Ise has no official as his second Rook, though. Right now other people can fill in, but it'd be good if he got an actual Rook later. What's he going to do with Roygun, though? I wonder if she'd be good as the second Rook? Though it's out of the question if she isn't suitable as a Rook.

Edit: One post late.
@Lucidrago: Good points. Yeah, Elmenhilde already loves Ise, so her falling for Saji isn't likely. I think even if she drank his blood, the one she loves would still be Ise. She loved him even before she drank his blood.

But yeah, now that you mention it, Ise really does have all of Roygun's peerage, doesn't he? I wonder if he could use her Rook as his own in the tournament, for example?

Sparda4
2017-07-15, 09:08
Well for the tournament he can have her team members join. BUT could they work in sync ? Roygun's servants know how they can cooparate but with Issei and his team could be a problem.
And i'm starting to think maybe Roygun and her peerage can become the "team" Vali wants to fight. It's not very likely but it's a thought.

DragonOsman
2017-07-15, 09:20
Nah, that's already his tournament team (including his peerage, once he completes it), though I guess including Grayfia would be bad since she isn't really a part of his team permanently (only there for the tournament, after all). Roygun's peerage can be counted as reserve troops of sorts.

Speaking of Queens, I really want to know who Ise's actual Queen will be. It seems like it'll be a new character, but I really want to see her. I wonder if she'll be introduced in DxD or we'll see her in a sequel (like Milicas's story that Ishibumi seems to want to write, for instance).

But I think this would be better if we talked about it in the harem thread. This thread is supposed to be about DX4, isn't it?

Lucidrago
2017-07-15, 10:03
Tiamat. The only person I can see becoming his queen and who is actually worthy of a queen piece. And she's strong but not too strong for an evil piece like Crom Cruach. Despite what people think evil pieces can't work on anybody. There are those that are simply too powerful for any evil piece.

DragonOsman
2017-07-15, 10:52
Again, let's take this to the harem thread. I think a talk about the peerage is perfect for that thread. Until we have more info on DX.4 this thread should be on hold.

Hakai
2017-07-15, 16:47
Tbh. I'm way more interested in Sairaorg vs Cao Cao than Ise vs Saji Sona.

Hopefully it's a detailed fight with some illustration(s).

Sparda4
2017-07-15, 20:58
That's kinda needed at this point. we haven't had many "fight" illustrations these past few volumes it's time for 1 or two.

Lucidrago
2017-07-16, 07:00
Don't get your hopes up. Miyama-Zero's illustrations are top-notch but you don't get many. There was a volume that only had two illustrations one time.

Hakai
2017-07-16, 08:00
That's kinda needed at this point. we haven't had many "fight" illustrations these past few volumes it's time for 1 or two.

Well, the last volume did have one of Ise vs Dulio.. But yeah they are certainly lacking.

Miyama has been horribly lazy since Volume 16.