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SpiderBraids
2007-06-01, 00:31
I haven't seen this touched on in a while, so here goes. (If it has, just point me to the link.)

What instances have you seen where a change made through dubbing ends up contradicting (or being contradicted by) a later event?

Here's mine. In an episode of Winx Club, a character shoots a plasma sphere at a teacher that she suspects is evil. She does hit him, but there's no harm done with the teacher. In the dub, this is changed to a "truth orb", which is meant to reveal the true nature of the target. So what's the problem?

Well, in a later episode, said teacher is revealed to be a fake when the real one shows up (like the Skinner incident in that really terrible Simpsons ep, only done much better). Even though this is the very kind of thing that the "truth orb" was meant to expose. And the dub never even tries to cover this up (they don't even drop a reference to the orb then).

(And I've had some people tell me that it's possible that she cast the spell wrong, but there's nothing in the footage that indicates such. Eventually, someone did tell me that it's possible that the dubbers didn't know that this was going to happen, which is pretty much the response I wanted.)

Your turn.

Potatochobit
2007-06-01, 00:48
u have to remember some times the voice timing doesnt match the script timing, so they have to shorten or change words.

but atm i can't think of anything that caused a problem.

Risaa
2007-06-01, 01:39
u have to remember some times the voice timing doesnt match the script timing, so they have to shorten or change words.

Yeah... that's really the reason why I heavily prefer subs... It's inevitable that some words and things would have to be changed around to fit the timing...

hobbes_fan
2007-06-01, 01:58
I've never really had an issue with accuracy. My main issues is with the English VA not matching characters.

FatPianoBoy
2007-06-01, 02:04
I've never really had an issue with accuracy. My main issues is with the English VA not matching characters.

Indeed. If I want accuracy, I turn the subs on ;)
My biggest gripe is bad/unnatural acting, which is just about everywhere. I'm pretty sure it usually isn't the VA's fault, since I've heard the same people perform very well and very badly, so maybe it's an issue with the director.

felix
2007-06-01, 02:10
With dubs its generally more of an issue with quality control.
I don't think voices have much to do with it. It doesn't really have to match to the last little sound, unless they don't have some horrible accent or something it should be fine. ( horrible as in it really really doesn't fit the character >_< )

SpiderBraids
2007-06-01, 02:22
That's not quite the kind of carelessness I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of when dubbers tweak certain parts of the story, making something that happens later make no sense (like the "truth orb" example in the first post).

Aoie_Emesai
2007-06-01, 02:33
Don't forget, Japanese isn't a language that can be translated into good and plain English. Different subbing/dubbing groups can translated an anime into many different version, which basically all end up meaning the same.

Kaioshin Sama
2007-06-01, 03:00
I remember watching an episode of Pokemon with my younger cousin one time where Satoshi (Ash's) dub voice came out of Kasumi (Misty's) mouth for one line.

An example of horrible casting for a dub would be Dark Malik Ishtar's dub voice for Yu-Gi-Oh! In the original Japanese version he sounds very calm and collected to the point where its just creepy (he also seems far more evil this way in how callous and unemotional he is in the scenes, yet you still get a definite undercurrent of malice). Well in the dub he has this grating loud angry sounding voice that he never turns off and it's probably the most overacted role I've ever heard in an anime dub. He sounds far more comical than evil as a result and the character is essentially ruined completely as a villain.

hobbes_fan
2007-06-01, 04:03
My best example of what I'm talking about is in Fumoffu, Ren Mikihara and Hayashimizu just sound wrong. Ren sounds like a so-cal airhead instead of a strong sensible quiet girl. Hayashimzu sounds like an spineless git, instead of a confident imposing leader type.

But, looking at the shows that you've mentioned they seemed to have had a few seasons each. I mean, that's a crapload of dialog to translate and comprehend. So it maybe a mistake. But as well as that it could just be a massive plothole, it may not just be the translators fault. From the info provided the subs don't exactly clarify the situation.

What was the "Plasma Sphere" supposed to do in the subs? I assume it was supposed to have a similar effect. It seemed it had no effect anyway, what was their explanation in the subs.

SpiderBraids
2007-06-01, 21:00
What was the "Plasma Sphere" supposed to do in the subs? I assume it was supposed to have a similar effect. It seemed it had no effect anyway, what was their explanation in the subs.

The Plasma Sphere had destructive powers. I'd link you to a [legal! because it's by the dubbers themselves] online vid clip showing the episode in question, but I doubt that it would be kosher (if it's okay though, I'll post the link later). But here are some parts of my summary of the uncut.

Later, everyone learns about Plasma Spheres (not Truth Orbs... honest!). Professor Palladium gives everyone a warning on proper use. Stella initially volunteers herself to do this, but decides not to upon being warned that it could suck the air out of the room. Amaryl goes up, and learns how to create the Plasma Sphere, using a visualization technique called "inversion". She's good at creating the sphere, but instead of hurling it at one of the targets, she hurls it at Stella instead. Professor Palladium stops it from hitting her, and threatens to expel Amaryl. Oh yeah... PLOT POINT! PLOT POINT!

(Later in the summary)

Tecna lobs the Plasma Sphere she learned earlier at Avalon, doing some damage not only to Avalon but the window behind him as well.

(Full summary here (http://spiderbraids.livejournal.com/5343.html).)

For comparison to the dub, this link (http://www.angelfire.com/la3/goldenroad15/episode35.html) should do the trick.

I should also note that (only) 14 episodes passed between this episode and the episode where Avalon is revealed as fake (http://www.angelfire.com/la3/goldenroad15/episode49.html).

Tatsumiko
2007-06-02, 13:18
whinge and whine?!!!.....o_O....hmm..good thinking ^^"

ok ermmhh..something thats actually serious about this show..can't think of anything so ill mention the anime that has been murdered because of dubbing..X(

SailorMoon...They made Haruka and Michiru family!!!!..and not to mention the several worst attack phrases like : "Moon cosmic dream action!!"..when the weapon is in crisis mode....-_-

HashiriyaR32
2007-06-03, 21:09
Worst victim of ENGLISH dubbing? Initial D, hands down. Gangsta speak does NOT belong in anime. The cantonese dub was just as good, if not better, than the original.

krysinello
2007-06-03, 21:15
Anything by 4 kids and Dragonball Z. Can't stand them. Other then that I find most English dubs to be enjoyable.

SpiderBraids
2007-06-03, 21:21
Just so to clarify...

We're not really discussing general shoddiness in dubbing, but rather dub changes that create plot holes later because they haven't gotten that far ahead yet.

Maybe I should change the thread title?

krysinello
2007-06-03, 21:36
Well then, Orphen has major changed to the script in that it even had several things story line changed. Also 4 kids hack them all up anyways so I was right in that regards.

-KarumA-
2007-06-04, 02:17
Anything by 4 kids and Dragonball Z. Can't stand them. Other then that I find most English dubs to be enjoyable.

so true, i cant stand anything english dubbed.. there are some series done good but most of them are just too bad to be true.. for this reason i preffer subs and the original language

another fine example is Fruits Basket.. i watched it with the dub subs and i didnt understand anything about the so called joke translations... thank god there were 2 subs, one of the original language and another that was a typed version of the dubbed lines :)

FatPianoBoy
2007-06-04, 02:19
One example of a dubbing error that could potentially have adverse repercussions: 'sliders' was omitted from Haruhi's 'aliens, time travelers, sliders, and espers' introduction. If a slider ever shows up, it won't be as compelling, and Kyon's remarks about them not having shown up yet won't make any sense.

Tatsumiko
2007-06-04, 15:43
Just so to clarify...

We're not really discussing general shoddiness in dubbing, but rather dub changes that create plot holes later because they haven't gotten that far ahead yet.

Maybe I should change the thread title?

Aww come on Spidy!...there isn't a topic about dubs yet so why not use this one? XD

Robotnik
2007-06-04, 16:04
Yeah... that's really the reason why I heavily prefer subs... It's inevitable that some words and things would have to be changed around to fit the timing...

Subs suffer from this timing issue as well. The subtitle scriptwriters have to take readability and the length of the scene into account; you can only put up so much text to be read quickly enough by the average viewer.

Subtitle translations used to get parodied a lot in movies and cartoons, where someone onscreen would utter a single word and the subs would be like a whole paragraph.

Fruitfly
2007-06-04, 17:03
I don't remember a dub that screwed up a story. BTW what was the actual translation for "truth orb"? Plasma sphere? Sounds like something 4 kids will do.

I can't remember the title and the exact line they said but the weirdest dub line i heard was where students were in english class and the teacher asked a student to translate something into english. Except the word the teacher said was already in english. Something like "translate cat into english please" :eyebrow:

SpiderBraids
2007-06-18, 04:20
Electric Boogaloo!

Last time (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=48480), I talked of plot holes created via dub changes.

And now, let's talk about something different. Let me set up the scene with an excerpt of a summary of Winx...

Stella complains that they were going to learn how to make a twelve-course meal with a single spell, but Griselda says she'll just have to order in. For some odd reason, Stella holds her mouth, as if she'd just said something she should've kept to herself... except she didn't. I have this feeling she must've said something very different in Italian.

Full summary (http://www.angelfire.com/la3/goldenroad15/episode36.html). (See it in "action" at the 4:20 mark in this clip (http://wm.world.mii-streaming.net/media/4kids//fullshows/winx/Winx136_Act01_Multistream500.wmv). It's from the dubbing company themselves, so it shouldn't be any problem.)

Anyways, Stella's reaction doesn't really make sense with the dub dialog, but where I live, Griselda tells the class that you have to learn how to block attacks, and Stella's all, "Good thing you told me otherwise I would have just stood there until I got hit."

So the topic is, dub changes where characters' reactions make no sense anymore. (I have a few other videos from a different Winx episode to support this, but I'll upload those later.)

(BTW, I just read at this site (http://michaelsfavorites2.com/winxclub3/newspage.html) that Winx is now entering the Korean market. What goes around comes around.)

SpiderBraids
2007-06-19, 05:11
Basically, dub changes which make the scene in the dub BETTER than in the original. Discuss.

ShounenOnmyoujiiscoo
2007-06-29, 23:01
The Good : Inuyasha, Naruto,Saiyuki , Saiyuki Reloaded, Samurai Champloo, Samurai Deeper Kyo, One Piece, Fruits Basket, Witch Hunter Robin, Noein, FMA, Blood+ , Shaman King, Bleach, Trinity Blood, Gundam Seed, and I could go on and on about how like dubbing better than Japanese voices, and the only bad dub is D.N.Angel

KholdStare
2007-06-29, 23:43
Dubbing doesn't need to screw up the plot by incorrect translation to be bad. They can:

1) Be so boring and apathetic in such a way that I don't want to watch anymore.
2) Make me laugh for 90% of the episode so I really don't remember anything.
3) Has too much direct transliteration that no one knows what the comment is referring to because of cultural differences.

I've only watched a few dubs because they make me cry, either from laughter or just screwing up the series altogether. I'll give you my opinions on the shows I've seen dubbed.

Elfen Lied: This isn't bad. Actually it's pretty good except for the fact that Mayu's voice was shrieky at times while too loud and annoying elsewhere. I'd watch it in dubbed, but I prefer subs slightly.

Fullmetal Alchemist: I find nothing wrong with the dub except...well there's nothing wrong. It's really good with nice flow, female voice acting isn't hyped up or pitched usually, and everything seems normal. I prefer to watch it dubbed.

FLCL: I find this one of the best dubs ever made...they even used honorifics. I watched episode one subbed and episode two dubbed (accidentally) and I didn't notice the switch. Somehow the dub sounds exactly like the original too, just in another language. I prefer to watch it dubbed.

Inuyasha: Well I like the dubbed version even though people don't. The dub does sound unnatural and slow like you're speaking to a foreigner, but it's not bad. Also, Inuyasha doesn't sound as raspy and evil in the dub, and that's probably why I like watching the dub. I prefer to watch it dubbed.

Cardcaptor Sakura: I would never watch this show dubbed because the plot is changed, the main character is changed, people with crushes on each other were portrayed as afraid of each other because of ethical issues or something. I will always watch it subbed.

Place Promised: It was okay, but in my opinion it didn't capture the romantic and carefree mood as the original version. I prefer watching it subbed slightly over the dubbed.

hikariHoshino
2007-06-30, 00:18
Elfen Lied: This isn't bad. Actually it's pretty good except for the fact that Mayu's voice was shrieky at times while too loud and annoying elsewhere. I'd watch it in dubbed, but I prefer subs slightly.


Mayu voice was great to me because the VA was the same for hikari hoshino from this ugly yet beautiful world,but i think i know what part you hate mayu's voice,was it when Bandoh grabed her and she yelled but she sounded like a animal?

Ziv
2007-06-30, 01:59
imo shows with blatantly western themes are better dubbed. I just couldn't watch Last Exile dubbed. It was so confusing to see a European WWI-esque airplane pilot speaking Japanese. Other than that, pretty much every other series I've watched is better in Japanese. I must say, however, that the dub for Cowboy Bebop was waaaaay better than the original, although I think it had more to do with them finding one-trick VAs that just happened to perfectly fit their characters than the VAs being really good.

-Breakthrough-
2007-06-30, 10:24
Worst~ One Piece by 4kids. Nough said.

HyugaHinata
2007-06-30, 11:51
Yeah... that's really the reason why I heavily prefer subs... It's inevitable that some words and things would have to be changed around to fit the timing...

Yeah, I agree. Subs are almost universally better than foreign dubs. Japanese dubs for English live-action movies (Spider-man 2, Fight Club and Schindler's List) tend to be of a very high quality, though, and I often use them to improve my Japanese.

Anyway, I've noticed that even when a character is narrating (and therefore lip syncing becomes a moot issue), they'll often change the lines. They generally keep the meaning, but it's still annoying.

Psychotic_Virtue
2007-06-30, 17:05
Im Mostly Against Dubs Although There Are Rare Well Made Ones Like Outlaw Star. I Think Dubbing Companies Should Hire British Voice Actors As A Change Of Pace From The Emotionless American Dubs Which We Usually See...

P.V.

Ziv
2007-07-01, 05:19
Anyway, I've noticed that even when a character is narrating (and therefore lip syncing becomes a moot issue), they'll often change the lines. They generally keep the meaning, but it's still annoying.

That's one of the things I don't get either. I can understand it when they have to add a figure of speech or something to make it sound right, but a lot of the time they change adjectives even though it doesn't improve the coherency, and doesn't clarify any cultural references.

Skizm240
2007-07-03, 11:57
(1) (1) ok i guess its time for my 2 cents. I feel that voice acting in japan isn't looked at the same as over here. It's a very big Biz there...i mean people become IDOLS from it. I'm not trying to say that japanese dubbing is the most important, because i feel the same about all re-dubbs. I would be mad as heck if i watched a version of Open Season with thai dubs.
I guess the thing with me is that I want things left in there intended state. Artwork isn't made to be destroyed...and this is very much art

Happy_Chip
2007-07-04, 06:16
Basically, dub changes which make the scene in the dub BETTER than in the original. Discuss.

IMO I find comedy usually works better with a (well-executed) dub. I found that series with comedy in them, like Lost Universe and Dai Guard, made me laugh more when watching with the dub, but watching with subs was better to communicate the plot and story. In particular the changes in dialog with LU really changed the flavor of the overall story...in a bad way. But the humor was better.

WanderingKnight
2007-07-04, 07:54
Basically, dub changes which make the scene in the dub BETTER than in the original. Discuss.Never happened to me.

I don't know too much about English dubbing (though I've gotta say that I listened a bit to the English track of a Cowboy Bebop DVD and I almost wanted to puke, even though I've heard many people call it the best dub in history). Over here, I get Spanish dubbing.

There is one problem with the Latin American Spanish right now. When I was a kid (approximately up till 2000 or something) dubs were made in Mexico. And Mexico has some great vocal actors. Though I would never prefer them over the original Japanese cast, when I watch those old dubbed shows, like Dragon Ball Z, Cowboy Bebop, NGE, the actors don't feel as if they were reading a sheet of paper.

But what happened after 2000? For some reason or the other (probably because of money :/), dubs started to be made in my country. And vocal actors here SUCK. I can't watch the shows they broadcast in the local anime channel because of that HIDEOUS dubbing, with a cast comprised of around 5 VAs for 20 shows and a lack of acting attitude that goes beyond comprehension. There are times when they broadcast old series with Mexican dubbing, like Crayon Shin-chan, and they sound good and I have no problem watching them. But once they get to post-2000 series, I feel compelled to turn off the TV at once.

SpiderBraids
2007-07-04, 21:12
I would be mad as heck if i watched a version of Open Season with thai dubs.

Hey, I'm from Thailand... and like in the US, there's quite some practice in using local celebs for dubbing, and promoting as such. (It's more common on animation dubs, though.)

That said, I only tolerate dubs on non-English programming. (Recently, one of our local free channels stopped broadcasting bilingually [as in, with the original sound on the alternate soundtrack], and it kind of teed me off, but I've gotten over it, because I hardly ever watched their English programming anyways...)

Back to the topic. Check out a positive dub change at around the 7:05 mark in this comparison vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQYVTH42Src) I made. (I know it's not much, but I'm pretty sure that other Winx fans could point out more positive edits to you.) And there's more where that video came from. (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=spiderbraids+comparisons)

Edit: Throwing back all the way to this thread's first post, I found a YouTube clip of the class where the girls learn how to create truth, er, PLASMA spheres. Since it appears to be okay to put up short clips (and clips uploaded by the dubbers themselves), here's the link:

Palladium's Class (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoYvqLa89so)

For comparison, the 4K version of the scene starts at 2:45 in this clip (http://wm.world.mii-streaming.net/media/4kids//fullshows/winx/Winx135_Act02_Multistream500.wmv).

Okay, let the comments begin.

OutPhase
2007-07-04, 22:07
Worst~ One Piece by 4kids. Nough said.

If that's the worst you have seen, I envy you since you have not seen anime actually be completely butchered. At least they didn't change anything important or major, and to me, it does not matter to me how they changed some minor details as long as they didn't do anything that would alter or destroy the original story or plot.

The Cardcaptor's Sakura dub makes practically every other dub I have seen to date look like it was translated without any flaws.