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View Full Version : Seriously, WTF is with all the teen protags in anime?


Demongod86
2007-06-09, 23:04
Am I the only one tired of the endless protagonists with a 1 in the decades column of their ages, who usually don't even break 18 years old (legal age)? Why is it that most anime has angst-on-legs for main characters? Wouldn't it be nice for a change NOT to have personified angst representing the face of the show?

Hell, some of the best anime EVER (or at least their characters) were such that they broke this rule:

Cowboy Bebop
Gundam SEED Destiny (Kira and Lacus are officially legal!)
Trigun
Outlaw Star
Ah My Goddess (if it's not good period, I know Belldandy has made her way into the Parthenon with Lacus, Yuna, Tifa, Saber, and Rider :heh: )

Need I say more?

So for all us 20somethings, why don't the anime producers make a more grown up anime?

Asai
2007-06-09, 23:27
I quite enjoyed Hataraki Man, as a more mature series. Honey and Clover is somewhat mature, too (I forget how old they're supposed to be, but they're at an arts college, so not like they're kids...) Nodame Cantabile, too. Music college there.

Personally, the younger protagonists in many series don't bother me much, as I have very broad tastes. But it is nice to have a story with an all adult cast from time to time. They are certainly out there, if you want to look. Even if the apparent majority is more about kids.

Vexx
2007-06-09, 23:43
@asai: Beat me.... I was going to point out the same group of series...

Honda Boy Techy
2007-06-09, 23:43
all the young protagonists make me wish I went to school in Japan or went to a school like a Japanese school with people that acted like they do. Instead I got the crap school full of back woods retards and preps.

Actually I was kinda wondering the same thing. It doesn't really bother me all that much (in fact I really like it for some reason) but I do like to get an anime that doesn't take place in a high school or middle school every once in a while.

Kyuusai
2007-06-09, 23:53
There are two major reasons:
- Teenagers still make up the majority of anime viewership.
- Many people are nostalgic for their high school years.

I won't even get into the issue of both younger and older male viewers preferring female characters to be young...

Potatochobit
2007-06-10, 00:30
because 20 year old kids don't ask their parents to purchase merchandise. they just pirate it on the internet ;)

IchigoMania
2007-06-10, 01:01
huhu ,... Kambe on Samurai 7 is one of the older protagonist

Kaioshin Sama
2007-06-10, 01:13
I'd personally be more worried about all the warning signs that point to the future of anime, possibly not even 5 years down the road, being completely absent of any character of the Male sex (and possibly absent of any characters with an age in the Double Digits). The sad thing is that the one in parentheses about the loli trend is the half-joke, but outside of that the alarm bells are going off with the increasing dominance of female characters in anime.

Siegel Clyne
2007-06-10, 03:52
Am I the only one tired of the endless protagonists with a 1 in the decades column of their ages, who usually don't even break 18 years old (legal age)? Why is it that most anime has angst-on-legs for main characters? Wouldn't it be nice for a change NOT to have personified angst representing the face of the show?

Hell, some of the best anime EVER (or at least their characters) were such that they broke this rule:

Cowboy Bebop
Gundam SEED Destiny (Kira and Lacus are officially legal!)
Trigun
Outlaw Star
Ah My Goddess (if it's not good period, I know Belldandy has made her way into the Parthenon with Lacus, Yuna, Tifa, Saber, and Rider :heh: )

Need I say more?

So for all us 20somethings, why don't the anime producers make a more grown up anime?


Not only does Hataraki-Man star an adult protagonist, 28-year-old Matsukata Hiroko (aka Hiro), if memory serves me correct, no one younger than twentysomething appears in this 11-episode Japanese anime television show about working men and women - very rare for a television series of any kind, let alone an animated one.

(And if someone younger than twentysomething does appear in the show, however brief that may be, I do not recall them having a speaking part.)

It is all about grownups.

Lacus Clyne seiyuu Tanaka Rie voice acts as Matsukata Hiroko in Hataraki-Man.

wontaek
2007-06-10, 04:58
Characters in Nodame Cantabile are mostly older than 20 years. The current model of business for Japanese anime still relies on TV as the main medium. Sooner or later, they will finally figure out that most of the oversea anime audience relies on internet and are over age of 20. ( Genshiken anyone? ) Considering the fact that there were many anime series in the 1980s with most of the characters in their 20s and 30s, I think there will again be a period, most likely starting about a year or two from now and lasting about five years, when many high budget anime series will have most of its characters' age over 20, because the people who grew up watching animes in 1980s would have become CEOs and congressional representatives in the 2010s. The fact that most of the famous seiyuus would have aged well into 30s and perhaps 40s will also contribute to this inevitable hiatus from the normal model of brain washing the teenagers.

Matrim
2007-06-10, 08:10
Am I the only one tired of the endless protagonists with a 1 in the decades column of their ages, who usually don't even break 18 years old (legal age)?

No, you are not. I have nothing against adolescent characters per se and some of my all time favourite animes have cast full of teens but I am tired of the lack of diversity. For one series with adult cast you have something like thirty with under 18 cast. All kinds of implausible premises are used to explain why teens happen to be mecha pilots, rulers of kingdoms or good old saviours of the universe. :)

Considering the fact that there were many anime series in the 1980s with most of the characters in their 20s and 30s, I think there will again be a period, most likely starting about a year or two from now and lasting about five years, when many high budget anime series will have most of its characters' age over 20

I really hope your prediction will becoem reality.

I'd personally be more worried about all the warning signs that point to the future of anime, possibly not even 5 years down the road, being completely absent of any character of the Male sex

No way, the harems with a loser male as a lead will never die. :heh:

Deathkillz
2007-06-10, 08:17
I'd personally be more worried about all the warning signs that point to the future of anime, possibly not even 5 years down the road, being completely absent of any character of the Male sex (and possibly absent of any characters with an age in the Double Digits). The sad thing is that the one in parentheses about the loli trend is the half-joke, but outside of that the alarm bells are going off with the increasing dominance of female characters in anime.
blowing things out of proportion again i see :3

the main thing with this is outlined by Kyuusai ~

the viewers want to relate to the characters they are watching and mainly because there are more teens watching anime that older people the companies tend to take up stories that lean against youth days ~

i can see that loli's are going to be popular but in no way is it going to be all that in the future ~ there are lots of companies out there willing to break the mould and it even shows with some of the current series airing ~ and your talk about "no males" is totally out >_<

Xellos-_^
2007-06-10, 10:45
the main character in Zone of Ender TV is a 40 something middle age guy.

HurricaneHige
2007-06-10, 11:01
Gundam Seed Destiny --> one of the best anime ever...?

sry those cannot be used in the same sentence

but the reason y they have so many teen prog its becuz anime is general geared towards teenage males in Japan, wat better way to get them hooked then to have someone they can relate to be the hero?

hipeach
2007-06-10, 11:03
Hell, some of the best anime EVER (or at least their characters) were such that they broke this rule:

Gundam SEED Destiny (Kira and Lacus are officially legal!)

With this, somehow your whole post lost any credibility.

the main character in Zone of Ender TV is a 40 something middle age guy.
And a great main character indeed.

I'd personally be more worried about all the warning signs that point to the future of anime, possibly not even 5 years down the road, being completely absent of any character of the Male sex (and possibly absent of any characters with an age in the Double Digits). The sad thing is that the one in parentheses about the loli trend is the half-joke, but outside of that the alarm bells are going off with the increasing dominance of female characters in anime.
I'd be more worried about more and more anime characters with age going 3 to 4 to even more digits. There seems to be more and more characters that are archmagi, vampires, immortals, gods, and whatever even more powerful in anime. Sooner or later all anime main characters will become Mary Sue's to realize the writer's perverted fantasy.

DarkT
2007-06-10, 11:06
*sigh* you've found the secret evidence as to the audience age that the anime-makers think they make it for? :).

Kinny Riddle
2007-06-10, 12:25
Honey & Clover had a whole range of 20-something characters, including Hagu (the story began with her at 19).

Dr Tenma in Monster was at least 30-something for most of the show, the title character Johann and his twin sister Nina were in their early 20s. With the exception of Dieter, the remaining characters were more or less adults.

For most anime, they have a target audience in mind, and most of that target audience falls in the 10-25 range, hence it's not surprising for teenage characters to dominate the cast.

4Tran
2007-06-10, 12:37
There are three main categories of anime: children's shows, otaku shows, and shows for everyone else. Obviously, children's shows are going to have young protagonists, but the same is usually true of the other categories. Part of this is due to Japan's youth-obsessed culture, but part of it has to do with storytelling as well - the boundary between child and adult is one of the most interesting character aspects to explore.

innominate
2007-06-10, 12:46
Atop the issue of target audience, do bear in mind that younger candidates do often suggest potential, together with a more responsive and greater learning ability. Also, it's simpler to visualize teenagers with unorthodox dreams and ambitions knowing that as humans age they tend waver along pragmatism rather than attempting something novel.

Not that I have anything against the older members of this forum, ^^..........

Yet again, I don't really think the age of the protagonist really matters, though, in this case. You can have young children in a film meant for adults- (eh, that sounded wrong,) but oh well, the converse can be true as well. =D

That said, supergrannies to the rescue!

Joojoobees
2007-06-10, 12:57
I personally would like to see more older characters. I get bored with an endless rehash of high school angst. In my opinion college-aged angst is not much different, although both H&C and Nodame Cantabile were very good shows.

Fortunately there has been some good anime with more mature main characters. I also enjoyed Bartender. Recently there was the largely overlooked, but quite good, Hataraki Man. Currently Seirei no Moribito has a main character who is 30, although there are several young characters as well. Darker than Black also features mostly grownups.

hipeach
2007-06-10, 13:46
Atop the issue of target audience, do bear in mind that younger candidates do often suggest potential, together with a more responsive and greater learning ability. Also, it's simpler to visualize teenagers with unorthodox dreams and ambitions knowing that as humans age they tend waver along pragmatism rather than attempting something novel.


Considering the fact that those hundreds to thousands years old characters in anime are still shown with unorthodox dreams and ambitions and prone to changes, I don't think the real world states of adults have much to do here :p

Matrim
2007-06-10, 15:01
Atop the issue of target audience, do bear in mind that younger candidates do often suggest potential, together with a more responsive and greater learning ability.

Yeah but when you see the coming of age scenario about 100 times in different animes it kind of gets repetitive. :heh:

but the reason y they have so many teen prog its becuz anime is general geared towards teenage males in Japan, wat better way to get them hooked then to have someone they can relate to be the hero?

I don't know, how about writing a decent plot or having mighty good art or having characters which teens can relate too without the characters themselves being teens? Why always go for the most obvious solution of having teen protagonist(s)?

Joojoobees
2007-06-10, 15:13
Yeah but when you see the coming of age scenario about 100 times in different animes it kind of gets repetitive. :heh:
It's hard to be innovative when you're working on yet another story about someone's first kiss. I'm not saying it is impossible, just that the anime studios could come up with some fresh ideas by exploring the many opportunities for drama, action, humor, etc. that exist in the lives of people older than 20.

Also, justifying the choice of pre-adult protagonists by saying most anime is watched by pre-adults is to set up a self-fulfilling prophecy, because it is just as valid to say the market for anime is limited to pre-adults because most of the shows are pitched at them.

7Th
2007-06-10, 16:04
Am I the only one tired of the endless protagonists with a 1 in the decades column of their ages, who usually don't even break 18 years old (legal age)? Why is it that most anime has angst-on-legs for main characters? Wouldn't it be nice for a change NOT to have personified angst representing the face of the show?

Hell, some of the best anime EVER (or at least their characters) were such that they broke this rule:

Cowboy Bebop
Gundam SEED Destiny (Kira and Lacus are officially legal!)
Trigun
Outlaw Star
Ah My Goddess (if it's not good period, I know Belldandy has made her way into the Parthenon with Lacus, Yuna, Tifa, Saber, and Rider :heh: )

Need I say more?

So for all us 20somethings, why don't the anime producers make a more grown up anime?

:heh:

:heh:

Most useless thread ever. Most manganime start with teens or kids to show-off their progress during the series for it is really easy in narrative to develop young characters.

Slice of Life
2007-06-10, 20:05
Sooner or later all anime main characters will become Mary Sue's to realize the writer's perverted fantasy.

Ummm ... the anime industry is not some playground where writers can burn their studio's cash to realize their very own "perverted fantasies" disregarding the audience.

Sooner or later, they will finally figure out that most of the oversea anime audience relies on internet and are over age of 20. ( Genshiken anyone? ) Considering the fact that there were many anime series in the 1980s with most of the characters in their 20s and 30s, I think there will again be a period, most likely starting about a year or two from now and lasting about five years, when many high budget anime series will have most of its characters' age over 20, because the people who grew up watching animes in 1980s would have become CEOs and congressional representatives in the 2010s. The fact that most of the famous seiyuus would have aged well into 30s and perhaps 40s will also contribute to this inevitable hiatus from the normal model of brain washing the teenagers.

A potpourri of strange ideas. "Relies on the internet" = "downloads fansubs"? The question is who watches the ads on TV and more importantly who buys the merchandising stuff. Anime aren't made in the Japanese "congress" (wut?) and, see above, the CEOs will produce whatever sells. And seiyuus start their job, do their job, and finally quit their job.

Goofus Maximus
2007-06-10, 20:59
I don't mind the teen protagonists, but I do notice a trend of older protagonists as is mentioned:

Nodame Cantabile
Angel Heart
Hataraki Man
Claymore
Berserk
Seirei No Moribito
Bartender
Monster
Ergo Proxy
Witch Hunter Robin
Hellsing

All these and more have at least some protagonists who are either somewhat or much older than teenyboppers.

ibreatheanime
2007-06-10, 21:34
I am refreshed when I see an anime with more mature characters, however I see reasons why younger protaganists are used.

1. TARGET AUDIENCE
this has been mentioned many times in this thread, so I wont rant.
2. YOUTH
people like to focus on the young, rather than show the trials of adulthood. Why do you think hollywood is young? people like to see youth.
3. CHANGES
it can be amusing to watch characters evolve throughout a series. Plus having a young hero/herione makes it even more fantastic that they have to save the world, or overcome some sort of challenge. (in many cases)

mdauben
2007-06-11, 08:19
Am I the only one tired of the endless protagonists with a 1 in the decades column of their ages, who usually don't even break 18 years old (legal age)?
I do agree, but unfortunatly that is the demographic that most anime is aimed at, so its understandable. However, I certaily wouldn't mind seeing more anime aimed at an adult audince, either.

Hell, some of the best anime EVER (or at least their characters) were such that they broke this rule:
Hehe! Well, I can't agree with a list of best anything that included GSD :eyebrow:, but I know what you mean. Some of my own favorite series included "older" characters:


REC - A 20 something guy and an 18 year old woman.
Onegai Teacher! - A 20 something woman and an 18 year old guy.
Ai Yori Aoshi - Two early 20s leads (at least by the end of the series)
Nodame Cantabile - Two early 20s leads
Black Lagoon - Two 20 something leads.
Mobile Suit Gundam: 08th MS Team - Two 20 something leads.
Patlabor TV - All the main characters are at least in their early 20's if not older.
So, there are some out there. It's just that they are far outnumbered by the teen agers. :rolleyes:

Skane
2007-06-11, 08:57
Erm... I fail to see a problem really. It is hardly brain-taxing to come up with an anime series that has a main cast in their twenties or older. Hell, I'll throw in a new one for you guys to chew on.

Ghost in the Shell.

Perhaps the real problem is that you are not looking hard enough for it? ;)

Cheers.

4Tran
2007-06-11, 10:03
Hell, some of the best anime EVER (or at least their characters) were such that they broke this rule:
How important is the age of the protagonist in the first place? I'll list the ages of the protagonists of my favorite shows and the importance of their ages:

1. 16 - The age is important in only a handful of scenes. One of the themes is that age is relatively unimportant compared to what you do with what you've got. *
2. 10-18 - Age is utterly essential to the show. **
3. 12-13 - With either a younger or older protagonist, you'd have a totally different show. *
4. 16-19 - Other than being young and inexperienced, age isn't important.
5. 16+ - Age is important early on, but it's decidedly less so later on. *
6. 16 or so - Other than being young and inexperienced, age isn't important.
7. 16 - Age is an important component of the show. **
8. 16-20 - Age is utterly essential to the show. *
9. 16+ - Age is an important component of the show. **
10. 14 or so - Youth is very important, but the exact age isn't. Most people watching it would assume that the characters are older than they are. **

(For fun's sake, * denotes a show that has a school scene (not counting flashbacks), and ** denotes a show that largely takes place in school.)

I have very varied tastes, but I'm certainly no teenager, so I really don't think that the ages of the characters have anything to do with the quality of a show. It's not that much different from there being a lot of fantasy novels with young characters.

mdauben
2007-06-11, 12:30
I have very varied tastes, but I'm certainly no teenager, so I really don't think that the ages of the characters have anything to do with the quality of a show.
Certaily a show can be good or bad, irrespective of the age of the cast. Regarding the OP's desire for series featurning older characters, I think there are probably two main issues here.


First, a lot of people like to "see themselves" in a story. That becomes at least somewhat harder (although not impossible) as the age difference between the character and the viewer increase.
Second, is just the maturity of the subject matter. As they become older a lot of viewers hope for a little more depth to their relationships than the typical anime "first kiss" romance for example.

I'm well past my "teenage" years, too, and as much as I can still enjoy a well done "high school romance" series, it is still nice to see characters and situations that are a bit more mature (not hentai, just reflecting the outlook and concerns of people in their 20's or 30's).

At least, that's what I think. :p

cyth
2007-06-11, 16:29
I do agree, but unfortunatly that is the demographic that most anime is aimed at, so its understandable. However, I certaily wouldn't mind seeing more anime aimed at an adult audince, either.Most anime you see fansubbed are aimed at adults. To be more precise, anime that airs in Japan around or after midnight is primarily aimed at adults (18 years and above). If it were aimed at kids/teenagers that attend school regularly, they'd air them sooner, in the ~7 PM~ 10 PM timeframe, after they get out of school/extracurriculum activities and before bed-time.
Also, primary anime/merchandise consumers are people that have some kind of a job. Many young adults have parttime jobs or are fresh out of college & employed. Still, this doesn't mean that teenagers don't take part in the japanese otakudom, in fact, some studies say (http://animeonline.com/index.php?page=news_details&action=details&id=102026) most japanese otaku first realized they were down the path of being an otaku as early as in their time of grade school. Nevertheless, we should NOT apply the American mentality "kids have rich parents, college students are poor" to Japan.

NoSanninWa
2007-06-11, 17:18
Erm... I fail to see a problem really. It is hardly brain-taxing to come up with an anime series that has a main cast in their twenties or older. Hell, I'll throw in a new one for you guys to chew on.

Ghost in the Shell.

Perhaps the real problem is that you are not looking hard enough for it? ;)
This isn't the Suggestions Forum, but to make a good point here are a few more, all of them from the current season:
Darker than Black (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/997.html)
Seirei no Moribito (http://anidb.info/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=4403)
Moonlight Mile (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/965.html)
Emma season 1 (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/569.html) and season 2 (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/978.html).

That's 4 good shows currently aring which have adult protagonists. While it is a minority there are some pretty good shows for you to choose from. If I was to dip into the plethora of anime from previous seasons and years the number would increase greatly.

I certainly cannot argue that most anime is made for teenagers or those interested in remembering being teenagers, but there are a lot of good shows which do not fit this description at all.

4Tran
2007-06-11, 17:25
1. First, a lot of people like to "see themselves" in a story. That becomes at least somewhat harder (although not impossible) as the age difference between the character and the viewer increase.
I don't know if this theory is bourne out by the facts. While self-identification is a useful story element, it's hardly a necessary one. Besides, as you alluded, it's not exactly difficult to identify with characters regardless of age, gender, profession, demeanor, species, or sexual orientation as long as said characters are well written.

2. Second, is just the maturity of the subject matter. As they become older a lot of viewers hope for a little more depth to their relationships than the typical anime "first kiss" romance for example.
The maturity of the subject matter is entirely dependent on the themes of a show and the quality of the writing. The age of the characters is only relevant if they all behave as their age would suggest. Since the maturity of teenaged anime characters deviate wildly just as that of real teenagers do, it's not really a cause for concern. The main reason why we don't get more good mature works is largely due to a lack of good dialogue. Hence, a much better question would be "why isn't there better writing in anime?"

I'm well past my "teenage" years, too, and as much as I can still enjoy a well done "high school romance" series, it is still nice to see characters and situations that are a bit more mature (not hentai, just reflecting the outlook and concerns of people in their 20's or 30's).
I know where you're coming from since my favorite anime genre is drama, where the pickings are sort of slim. However, attributing any failings to the fact that the protagonist is a teenager seems to be missing the actual culprit. Besides, I can't think of a single show where someone could honestly complain that a show was bad because of the age of the protagonist.

monster
2007-06-11, 18:57
Besides, I can't think of a single show where someone could honestly complain that a show was bad because of the age of the protagonist. Well maybe not to that extreme (though who knows), but I think some people have 2 possible problems with teens/preteens. Either

1. Teens "act their age" (whatever that means), for example, Demongod86 seems to have associated angst with teenagers. So in reality, they just don't like the attitude of the character(s) rather than their actual age.

or

2. Teens act like (or assume positons typically given to) people older than their age. An extreme case would be this little girl (I don't know her actual age, but she appears middle school age or even younger) in Gigantic Formula that has high rank in Japan's Gigantic project. Although I don't know if anybody doesn't like the show because of her, it's just an example (I myself am enjoying the show). But I guess that could turn off some people, among other things of course.

Zu Ra
2007-06-11, 19:18
Initially I did mind it somewhat. But now strangely I am okay with the fact that The fate of world is resting in the hands of 13 year old

To add to the list :

- Speed Grapher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_Grapher) ( Saiga is in mid 30s )

- Solty Rei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solty_Rei) ( Roy is in mid 30/40 s )

Veritas
2007-06-11, 20:40
Japan's youth-obsessed culture

Since when has this been unique to Japan?

Ummm ... the anime industry is not some playground where writers can burn their studio's cash to realize their very own "perverted fantasies" disregarding the audience.

It's where they can realize the audiences perverted fantasies.

Anyway, like someone else said, it's probably mostly nostalgia. If you have an action anime, your protagonist is not going to be older, because they wouldn't be in the best condition they could have ever been in. Romance is obvious, because people favor ogling young folks over old ones. Also, youth equals freedom. Not way young youth, but that little sandwich of mid to late teens when you don't need someone to accompany you at night and probably don't have a child or your own.

kujoe
2007-06-11, 22:16
I'd personally be more worried about all the warning signs that point to the future of anime, possibly not even 5 years down the road, being completely absent of any character of the Male sex
No way, the harems with a loser male as a lead will never die. :heh:
In some way, series that blatantly revolve around lolis and yuri themes for actual stories are the new harem. (oh, snap!) Regardless of whether they're actually great or predictably ridiculous, in the end they're not fooling anyone.

But I don't think Kaioshin's vision of the future will happen. I can imagine an increase in their popularity, but as long as there are young boys and young girls, there will always be shounen and shoujo anime. At the very least, some measure of variety will always remain.

4Tran
2007-06-12, 00:56
Well maybe not to that extreme (though who knows), but I think some people have 2 possible problems with teens/preteens. Either

1. Teens "act their age" (whatever that means), for example, Demongod86 seems to have associated angst with teenagers. So in reality, they just don't like the attitude of the character(s) rather than their actual age.

or

2. Teens act like (or assume positons typically given to) people older than their age. An extreme case would be this little girl (I don't know her actual age, but she appears middle school age or even younger) in Gigantic Formula that has high rank in Japan's Gigantic project. Although I don't know if anybody doesn't like the show because of her, it's just an example (I myself am enjoying the show). But I guess that could turn off some people, among other things of course.
I was thinking more along the lines of not liking Detective Conan or Hikaru no Go because the protagonists were kids. However, your first point has very little to do with age, and the second point is more a case of questionable writing than it has to do with age.

Since when has this been unique to Japan?
Strictly speaking, never. However, Japan takes it to a much greater degree than most countries in the West.

In some way, series that blatantly revolve around lolis and yuri themes for actual stories are the new harem. (oh, snap!) Regardless of whether they're actually great or predictably ridiculous, in the end they're not fooling anyone.
Cute shows may be seeing a revival in popularity, but they've always been around, so they are hardly new. Technically speaking, they predate harem shows by quite a lot - the first real example of the latter is Tenchi Muyo and it didn't come out until 1992.

As for yuri-themed anime, I believe that there are a grand total of three shows in this category: Kashimashi, Strawberry Panic, and Kannazuki no Miko (even this is more of a love triangle). Every other show that one would associate with yuri has a different dominant theme. You may want to include Yami to Boshi to Hon no Tabibito, but that's a bit of a stretch.

monster
2007-06-12, 01:33
I was thinking more along the lines of not liking Detective Conan or Hikaru no Go because the protagonists were kids. However, your first point has very little to do with age, and the second point is more a case of questionable writing than it has to do with age. That is what I said, isn't it? But sometimes it is easier to blame age, as evidenced by the opening post. I'm just saying that people can blame the wrong things for what they don't like to see in anime, including age, questionable writing or not.

Slice of Life
2007-06-12, 05:25
Most anime you see fansubbed are aimed at adults. To be more precise, anime that airs in Japan around or after midnight is primarily aimed at adults (18 years and above). If it were aimed at kids/teenagers that attend school regularly, they'd air them sooner, in the ~7 PM~ 10 PM timeframe, after they get out of school/extracurriculum activities and before bed-time.

I have been hearing this again and again for years but I've never seen some proper viewer statistics about that. Late night slots aren't for the casual viewer. certainly cheaper than the prime time and the fans (= those who buy the merchandizing stuff) would tape the show anyway so it doesn't really matter when it airs.

I'm of course not claiming that there are no adults who watch shows about 14 years old boys(!) fighting giant monsters(!!) in humanoid-shaped robots(!!!), otherwise most of us wouldn't be here. But it's a totally different thing to claim that such shows are aimed at adults. When I aim a show at a group X I will try to do it in a way such that group X, and especially group X will like it. And when I see that group Y likes it more I will re-adjust the content.

And as I see it, the vast majority of anime has more appeal to 15 years old than to 25 years old, including most anime I like. (I, who's definitely not 15 anymore.) So either the script writers do a pretty bad job in tuning their content or most anime are aimed at 15 years olds more than at 25 years olds.

Aoie_Emesai
2007-06-12, 05:31
Does the age of the character really matter that much? I know I can syill enjoy an anime without realizing their age through out the entire anime. If it's presented really well, age is irrelevant.

kujoe
2007-06-12, 07:26
Cute shows may be seeing a revival in popularity, but they've always been around, so they are hardly new. Technically speaking, they predate harem shows by quite a lot - the first real example of the latter is Tenchi Muyo and it didn't come out until 1992.

As for yuri-themed anime, I believe that there are a grand total of three shows in this category: Kashimashi, Strawberry Panic, and Kannazuki no Miko (even this is more of a love triangle). Every other show that one would associate with yuri has a different dominant theme. You may want to include Yami to Boshi to Hon no Tabibito, but that's a bit of a stretch.
I was referring more to their perceived (or not so perceived) status, rather than the history of their existence.

And I'm pretty sure that there are more than three yuri-themed anime. Yuri (or shoujo ai) doesn't have to clearly be the dominant theme. It may be part of the defining categories, but for its fandom, that's not what matters the most. Such titles simply titillate and entertain. They can even be moving sometimes—just like harem.

Jazzrat
2007-06-12, 07:33
All the newer cartoons feature teenagers as well. Gone were the days of adult heroes like Mask and GI Joes.

Quajafrie
2007-06-12, 08:20
Well, the target audience of anime is mainly teens, not adults. So it's natural.

4Tran
2007-06-12, 08:26
And I'm pretty sure that there are more than three yuri-themed anime. Yuri (or shoujo ai) doesn't have to clearly be the dominant theme. It may be part of the defining categories, but for its fandom, that's not what matters the most. Such titles simply titillate and entertain. They can even be moving sometimes—just like harem.
If yuri doesn't have to be the dominant theme, then why call them yuri-themed shows? Why not just call them shows with lesbians in them? To be honest, I'm not even sure if it's fair to call yuri a theme at all; romance seems to be a much more fitting descriptor.

The reason that there aren't very many truly yuri-themed anime is because I don't think that anybody really understood the viewers' appetite for such shows until Maria-sama ga Miteru came out. Prior to that, non-pornographic yuri was seen to be largely a particular subset of shoujo; and not a particularly popular one at that. And pretty much all of those older stories (and a hefty portion of the newer ones as well) with a strong yuri subcurrent rely on imagery first set up by Oniisama E.

All the newer cartoons feature teenagers as well. Gone were the days of adult heroes like Mask and GI Joes.
You're quite right. A few decades ago, North American boys' cartoons used to predominantly feature adult, and children used to be relegated to being sidekicks. Now, there's still some shows with adult protagonists, but they're probably no longer in the majority. Then again, most modern cartoons tend to be stylistically different from their forebears as well: action-drama cartoons still often have adult characters, but they're nowhere nearly as common any more. I wouldn't say that they've completely gone away though; the new Star Wars cartoon will attest to that.

kujoe
2007-06-12, 09:29
If yuri doesn't have to be the dominant theme, then why call them yuri-themed shows? Why not just call them shows with lesbians in them? To be honest, I'm not even sure if it's fair to call yuri a theme at all; romance seems to be a much more fitting descriptor.
I thought already explained that on that post—or at least qualified my statement as to why I refer to them as such by calling them based on the theme or category that matters the most for (one of) its core audience. If it's there, it will garner a lot of attention and interest among fans. The theme is still there, and if it's emphasized enough it will inevitably define the story for others depending on one's preferences. It's only natural for yuri/shoujo ai fans to talk about the supposed sexual undertones of one title, while actions fans will be focusing more on the action scenes from the very same show.

Besides, why call something a "shounen" romance or a "shoujo" one for that matter? Why "harem" when it's really just romance or comedy? I'm just being specific for the sake of discussion by using terms anime fandom has been using for a long time now. (off topic)

But I don't understand why you're saying that there are just a grand total of three titles. Perhaps it's because I generally lump shoujo ai and yuri anime under the same banner, at least for this case, since I was responding to an earlier comment about the increasing dominance of female characters, yuri and lolis earlier. And maybe there aren't that many yuri or shoujo ai titles in comparison, but the surge has been quite dramatic nonetheless.

mdauben
2007-06-12, 10:55
While self-identification is a useful story element, it's hardly a necessary one.
Like I said, it's not impossible and in a well done anime I'm sure most people have no problem identifying with a younger protagonist in a good show. That does not mean that (everything being equal) a viewer might not rather have an older character to identify with. The complaint I think it not against teen age characters per se, but just at the fact that they are such an overwhelming majority in anime.

However, attributing any failings to the fact that the protagonist is a teenager seems to be missing the actual culprit.
I would have to agree with you, but maybe its more an issue of prefernce than of good or bad? Perhaps we could look at genre as example of preference just like character age? For example, you said you like dramas, but comparativly speaking romantic comedies are probably much more common in anime (just like younger characters are more common than older characters). The fact that you prefer dramas does not mean that you can't enjoy romantic comedies, or even that romantic comedies are inferior to dramas. Just that, all things being equal, you would prefer to watch dramas. ;)

Jazzrat
2007-06-12, 11:02
Well, the target audience of anime is mainly teens, not adults. So it's natural.

That's not exactly it. It's more like a trend nowdays to feature teenager as the hero as opposed to a decade or two where manly adult action hero dominant the animation industry.

SeijiSensei
2007-06-12, 11:20
Like I said, it's not impossible and in a well done anime I'm sure most people have no problem identifying with a younger protagonist in a good show. That does not mean that (everything being equal) a viewer might not rather have an older character to identify with.

The maturity of the subject matter is entirely dependent on the themes of a show and the quality of the writing.... The main reason why we don't get more good mature works is largely due to a lack of good dialogue. Hence, a much better question would be "why isn't there better writing in anime?"

I think there's more to it than identification with the characters or limitations in the writing. I've certainly enjoyed many shows where the main protagonists are decades younger than me, Hikaru no Go and Noein being two shows that come to mind right away. 4tran is right that a well-written shows about younger protagonists can be compelling even if you are as old as me.

Where I part company with 4tran is over the question of whether this is simply a matter of poor writing. Writing shows about teenaged protagonists inevitably limits the range of potential story lines available. For instance, there's a lovely episode of Bartender about a retiring CEO reminiscing over a lost love from decades past. Another story concerns two aging filmmakers trying to reconcile their later commercial success with their earlier anti-establishment works. No matter how good the author of the series might be, he or she couldn't write stories like these with teen-aged protagonists. They're stories about mature people dealing with mature issues over a lifetime of experience.

Anyway, like someone else said, it's probably mostly nostalgia. If you have an action anime, your protagonist is not going to be older, because they wouldn't be in the best condition they could have ever been in. Romance is obvious, because people favor ogling young folks over old ones. Also, youth equals freedom. Not way young youth, but that little sandwich of mid to late teens when you don't need someone to accompany you at night and probably don't have a child or your own.

I often read here about the Japanese emphasis on nostaglia in their culture. I'd be much happier to watch a romantic show where the characters are in their thirties, perhaps one or both divorced, perhaps with kids. Instead nearly every romance show I've seen concerns unmarried people in their teens or early twenties. Again that seems to me to be a limitation of the intended target audience, not a limitation imposed by the abilities of the authors, or by the desire to touch some nostaglic vein in an older audience.

Kyuusai
2007-06-12, 12:41
SeijiSensei, your post brought to my mind another reason youthful protagonists are so common: Simplicity.

Something that we don't really realize until we've spent some time as adults is that we become more complex due to our experiences and a history of focusing on different things. The amount of information and exposition that covers all the basis to provide a relatively complete character portrait of a young person may not begin to illustrate a more mature character. That can not only take more time to cover, but also make it a bit harder to write for an older character, both in determining the character and in portraying them.

The genuine simplicity that a young character provides means that in a relative sense the story doesn't seem as shallow. When older, more mature characters are portrayed, it's commonly only in situations where the background of their more complex reasoning isn't as important as what their actions are (or at least in situations where we can make assumptions), and it's acceptable to leave their motivations amiguous. If an older character had focus in the same areas a younger character did, the same amount of exposition would feel rather shallow due to the relative difference in the depth of their character.

And, of course, despite being more complex internally, experience means that adults tend to be less likely to experience dramatic character progression in a particular situation, since they already have a deeper history of other events that have shaped them.

One reason Bartender works so well is that it immediately drills down to one particular dilemma and focuses on it. Since we are immediately taken beyond the usual slow, dramatic exposition and the scope of each story is limited, it avoids many of those pitfalls.

4Tran
2007-06-12, 23:52
Where I part company with 4tran is over the question of whether this is simply a matter of poor writing. Writing shows about teenaged protagonists inevitably limits the range of potential story lines available. For instance, there's a lovely episode of Bartender about a retiring CEO reminiscing over a lost love from decades past. Another story concerns two aging filmmakers trying to reconcile their later commercial success with their earlier anti-establishment works. No matter how good the author of the series might be, he or she couldn't write stories like these with teen-aged protagonists. They're stories about mature people dealing with mature issues over a lifetime of experience.
Actually, I largely agree with you. However, I don't think that what you bring up is a very big problem for anime. Most anime are adapted works, so that their stories and characters are set ahead of time - the potential stories that can be told through the characters isn't much of an issue. Next, even with original works, the creation process likely goes in the order of:
1. Figure out what kind of story you want to tell.
2. Figure out what kind of characters you want to use to telling it.

Most anime are tightly focused enough that if the kind of story that you're talking about is to be addressed, then provisions would have already been made for the characters and plot to accommodate them. The only time that this issue will constrain a show is probably when it comes to long running original works like Detective Conan or Doreamon. However, I doubt that that's really much of an issue.

Moreover, even in your example, the characters reminiscing over their lives are the guest characters, and the protagonist is merely an observer. Likewise, in Kino's Journey, Kino's age isn't at all a barrier to being a barrier to exactly the kind of stories that you're talking about.

I often read here about the Japanese emphasis on nostaglia in their culture. I'd be much happier to watch a romantic show where the characters are in their thirties, perhaps one or both divorced, perhaps with kids. Instead nearly every romance show I've seen concerns unmarried people in their teens or early twenties. Again that seems to me to be a limitation of the intended target audience, not a limitation imposed by the abilities of the authors, or by the desire to touch some nostaglic vein in an older audience.
I'm afraid that that's very unlikely to happen. Divorce is a big taboo in Japan, so they are very unlikely to make a show about a divorced person, especially one that tackles realistic problems. There's a very good reason why, in single-parent families, the other parent is almost certainly dead (usually the mother because of the way Japanese households work).

Fun fact: in the original broadcast of Koi Kaze, the only episode that was witheld from broadcast was the one dealing with the parents' divorce. The obvious conclusion is that divorce is literally more of a taboo than incest is.

The genuine simplicity that a young character provides means that in a relative sense the story doesn't seem as shallow. When older, more mature characters are portrayed, it's commonly only in situations where the background of their more complex reasoning isn't as important as what their actions are (or at least in situations where we can make assumptions), and it's acceptable to leave their motivations amiguous. If an older character had focus in the same areas a younger character did, the same amount of exposition would feel rather shallow due to the relative difference in the depth of their character.

And, of course, despite being more complex internally, experience means that adults tend to be less likely to experience dramatic character progression in a particular situation, since they already have a deeper history of other events that have shaped them.
That's a spot on observation. It's probably why so many protagonists in universes where there's a sizable amount of world building are young. It also explains why the aforementioned Kino wouldn't have been anywhere nearly as effective as a thirty-year old.

Solace
2007-06-13, 03:42
Age never bothers me. Most shows skew age so much that it's hardly consequential unless directly important to the story. It certainly wouldn't hurt to have more variety, but an older cast implies more seriousness in a story. How many would actually watch a show where the fate of the world to rest on five sixty year olds driving mecha, even though the idea has plenty of merit when the writing is good.

The anime industry is fairly new and the audience needs to grow up with it. While I believe there is certainly potential for more stories with a wider variety of characters possible, it inevitably comes down to who will be the bigger draw. For now, it's younger looking people, with the occasional show featuring older people. I think it will even out eventually, even with our youth obsessed cultures.

After so many years of seeing demographics and cycles change the scope of popular media, I've learned to tune out the generalisations and just focus on what matters the most - the story, writing, direction (and for me personally, music).

I believe NSW's sig sums it up best - "It's romance... hell, I'm a whore for that stuff. I'll watch a story about two tree slugs, as long as they love each other." -- bakabito

cyth
2007-06-13, 05:50
I have been hearing this again and again for years but I've never seen some proper viewer statistics about that. Late night slots aren't for the casual viewer. certainly cheaper than the prime time and the fans (= those who buy the merchandizing stuff) would tape the show anyway so it doesn't really matter when it airs.

I'm of course not claiming that there are no adults who watch shows about 14 years old boys(!) fighting giant monsters(!!) in humanoid-shaped robots(!!!), otherwise most of us wouldn't be here. But it's a totally different thing to claim that such shows are aimed at adults. When I aim a show at a group X I will try to do it in a way such that group X, and especially group X will like it. And when I see that group Y likes it more I will re-adjust the content.

And as I see it, the vast majority of anime has more appeal to 15 years old than to 25 years old, including most anime I like. (I, who's definitely not 15 anymore.) So either the script writers do a pretty bad job in tuning their content or most anime are aimed at 15 years olds more than at 25 years olds.Well, practicality (meaning cheaper late night timeslots) is of course one of the reasons why anime is aired after midnight. Japan has a strong fanbase that can support anime airings on regular terrestrial TV stations, not just specialized cartoon/anime TV channels (just like in the U.S.). Nevertheless, the rule of thumb says the sooner it airs, it's more "mainstream", prime-time, meant for broader audiences. Nodame Cantabile and Death Note are meant for mainstream crowds, so they stuck them in early late night timeslots. Many Gundams and moe series (featuring young protagonists) air much much later. Of course, the usage of HDD, DVR recorders is a must for any otaku, but of course mostly the otaku crowds will use those whose majority are young adults! Anime isn't a medium watched by anyone or everyone, at least not the specialized TV series that fall in the late night timeslots.

Anime was introduced to most western anime fans as a mature medium that is watched by young and old alike (in Japan). That may be true for theatrical and primetime anime, but as far as late night TV series and OVA is concerned, that is certainly not the case. Do Japanese teens watch late night anime? No, Japanese anime otaku teens do. Do they construct the majority of anime fans/otaku in Japan? The figures are debatable, now that anime is (finally) catching up with mainstream crowds, but my educated assessment would be that the majority is comprised of young adults (I'd show you an article about this posted on ANN two years ago, but it's down right now).

BTW, Gundam & mecha were always in the domain of adult watchers. Transformers & the likes just faked the generation bridge.

4Tran
2007-06-13, 08:46
I would have to agree with you, but maybe its more an issue of prefernce than of good or bad? Perhaps we could look at genre as example of preference just like character age? For example, you said you like dramas, but comparativly speaking romantic comedies are probably much more common in anime (just like younger characters are more common than older characters). The fact that you prefer dramas does not mean that you can't enjoy romantic comedies, or even that romantic comedies are inferior to dramas. Just that, all things being equal, you would prefer to watch dramas. ;)
Preference would indeed be a better way of approaching this issue. There's nothing wrong with preferring to see one thing over another, but the difference is that it doesn't mean that there's anything actually wrong with the other.

To be honest, what I really like is good writing and good dialogue. In general, the best examples of both are found in drama. However, because really good dramas are rare, it's easier finding it in other genres. As for preference, I probably prefer watching light-hearted shows more: the expectation level is much lower, and I don't have to put anywhere near as much effort into the viewing experience.

The anime industry is fairly new and the audience needs to grow up with it. While I believe there is certainly potential for more stories with a wider variety of characters possible, it inevitably comes down to who will be the bigger draw. For now, it's younger looking people, with the occasional show featuring older people. I think it will even out eventually, even with our youth obsessed cultures.
The anime industry (Tetsuwan Atom in 1963) is almost as old as the television industry in North America (1950s). It's certainly as old or older than the majority of the viewers, so I don't think that the argument works very well.

Nevertheless, the rule of thumb says the sooner it airs, it's more "mainstream", prime-time, meant for broader audiences. Nodame Cantabile and Death Note are meant for mainstream crowds, so they stuck them in early late night timeslots.
*4.9% 06/08 (Fri) 12:45am-*1:15am Fuji TV Nodame Cantabile
<SNIP>
*2.9% 06/06 (Wed) 12:56am-*1:26am NTV DEATH NOTE

While it's a good rule of thumb, Nodame Cantabile and Death Note air late enough that it's certain that they're not meant for mainstream audiences. This would only be true if viewers don't have to make any special effort to watch a show that they like. Here's an example:*2.6% 06/09 (Sat) *6:00pm-*6:30pm TBS Terra e [To Terra; Toward the Terra]

BTW, Gundam & mecha were always in the domain of adult watchers. Transformers & the likes just faked the generation bridge.
While I don't know about mecha shows in general, Gundam TV shows have alway been intended for children as their main audience. It largely comes down to marketing: older Gundam fans were likely to buy the toys already, and appealing to children is much more likely to make new Gundam fans who'll buy the toys for a long time to come.



Off-topic nomenclature stuff:
I thought already explained that on that post—or at least qualified my statement as to why I refer to them as such by calling them based on the theme or category that matters the most for (one of) its core audience. If it's there, it will garner a lot of attention and interest among fans. The theme is still there, and if it's emphasized enough it will inevitably define the story for others depending on one's preferences. It's only natural for yuri/shoujo ai fans to talk about the supposed sexual undertones of one title, while actions fans will be focusing more on the action scenes from the very same show.
It's sort of unfair to lump the core audience together. Unless you're talking about a show where yuri is the prime draw, chances are that people are watching for quite a different reason. Regardless, defining a show by a minor theme just doesn't make that much sense to me. Why not define it by it's main themes instead? Then again, I've never been particularly fond of most anime nomenclature.

Besides, why call something a "shounen" romance or a "shoujo" one for that matter? Why "harem" when it's really just romance or comedy? I'm just being specific for the sake of discussion by using terms anime fandom has been using for a long time now. (off topic)
For the most part, I don't think that "harem" is a very descriptive term at all, and I don't use it other than to contrast things. It's so ill-defined that it could apply to just about anything, and a lot of people have been abusing it.

On the other hand, I think that the shounen romance and shoujo romance genres are well defined enough that they give a knowledgeable reader a good idea of the kind of style, writing, drama, and themes that the work will feature. While they all can fit under the general romance genre, these are useful classifications, so using them makes sense. A decent rule of thumb is asking whether the nomenclature applied is done so to dismiss a work or not. If it is, then it's likely to be fairly useless classification. The same goes for any classification where the actual definition is contentious.

But I don't understand why you're saying that there are just a grand total of three titles. Perhaps it's because I generally lump shoujo ai and yuri anime under the same banner, at least for this case, since I was responding to an earlier comment about the increasing dominance of female characters, yuri and lolis earlier. And maybe there aren't that many yuri or shoujo ai titles in comparison, but the surge has been quite dramatic nonetheless.
I said that there's three titles because that's all that I could think of where yuri is a central theme. In all the other cases, labeling a show yuri doesn't really tell us a whole lot. Would you label a show that has a single lesbian couple as yuri? How about a show where it's completely one-sided? Or what if you have to dig into the subtext to get anywhere?

As I said earlier, there are more shows that feature yuri more more prominently for the last few years. However, that's largely due to the unexpected appeal of Maria-sama ga Miteru to male viewers. They still haven't made all that many show to cater to this particular segment.

For example, you can simply call Simoun a yuri show. But that's not only a vague description, but it will likely lead to quite incorrect interpretations.

Mr JeburtO
2007-06-13, 10:28
younger protagonists allows for creater character developement, but i think there is a limit to some degree

Matrim
2007-06-13, 14:39
Would you label a show that has a single lesbian couple as yuri? How about a show where it's completely one-sided? Or what if you have to dig into the subtext to get anywhere?

Well, depends on whom you ask, some portion of the yuri fandom would answer yes to all these questions. Let's not forget the Maria-sama ga miteru itself is pretty much only subtext as far as yuri is concerned.

I for one, don't like such labels much. One wouldn't call a certain show a romance if it just has some hints of romance between the characters, would they? That's why I don't like it when people call Noir yuri or shoujo-ai. Even if we accept all the hints as genuine signs of romantic love, the classification is too narrow. I don't see anyone calling say Planetes romance.

It's sort of unfair to lump the core audience together. Unless you're talking about a show where yuri is the prime draw, chances are that people are watching for quite a different reason. Regardless, defining a show by a minor theme just doesn't make that much sense to me. Why not define it by it's main themes instead? Then again, I've never been particularly fond of most anime nomenclature.

Well put.

And, of course, despite being more complex internally, experience means that adults tend to be less likely to experience dramatic character progression in a particular situation, since they already have a deeper history of other events that have shaped them.

It's funny then that one fo the best character development in anime can be found in Monster and Planetes, shows with mostly adult characters. You can have very deep character development with characters of any age past infancy, it's a case of lazy writing if a writer needs to create a teenager in order to achieve this.

kujoe
2007-06-13, 14:45
Unless you're talking about a show where yuri is the prime draw, chances are that people are watching for quite a different reason. Regardless, defining a show by a minor theme just doesn't make that much sense to me. Why not define it by it's main themes instead? Then again, I've never been particularly fond of most anime nomenclature.
Yes, that's what I meant. I'm not sure if I could call it unfair, since if you ask any yuri/shoujo ai fan a list of his (or her) favorites, I'm pretty sure that it will contain series titles that are either questionable or not entirely centered on the yuri/shoujo ai theme at all. I'm coming from a standpoint of what fandom considers yuri or shoujo ai by reputation, whether they're actually centered on those themes or are merely interpreted as such.

You seem to be coming from a "political correctness" perspective in terms of genre definition, or at least that's how it sounds to me, to which I go back to the previous paragraph. Perhaps you can elaborate it for me more, since I'm hardly what you'd call a hardcore adherent of all things yuri and shoujo ai.

For the most part, I don't think that "harem" is a very descriptive term at all, and I don't use it other than to contrast things. It's so ill-defined that it could apply to just about anything, and a lot of people have been abusing it.
Again, I don't understand. Wrong usage of the term is one thing, but why use it at all to differentiate one show from the other if it isn't descriptive at all?

I said that there's three titles because that's all that I could think of where yuri is a central theme. In all the other cases, labeling a show yuri doesn't really tell us a whole lot. Would you label a show that has a single lesbian couple as yuri? How about a show where it's completely one-sided? Or what if you have to dig into the subtext to get anywhere?
Like I said, I wasn't necessarily talking about shows that center on that theme alone. I'm referring to shows that either center on that theme or have "enough of it" to warrant such a distinction. A good example that I can think of is Noir. The creators themselves have said that they didn't write the story with that intention in mind, but they also mentioned that fans are free to interpret it as they see fit. Even today, Noir is seen as a favorite among yuri and shoujo ai fans for its gold mine of interpreted subtext, even though the show was meant to be a stylish action title first. The nature or image of a story becomes changed—reappropriated—depending on the audience that consumes it, sometimes unfairly or in error, and this brings me to the point of my first paragraph.

For example, you can simply call Simoun a yuri show. But that's not only a vague description, but it will likely lead to quite incorrect interpretations.
I haven't watched Simoun but it seems to me that it's exactly the type of show that revolves around the idea of attracting yuri/shoujo ai and moe fans more than anything. The "bait" is clearly enticing enough, and I'm pretty sure that's how it's recognized (as yuri/shoujo ai anime) by a lot of people.

4Tran
2007-06-14, 22:33
Well, depends on whom you ask, some portion of the yuri fandom would answer yes to all these questions. Let's not forget the Maria-sama ga miteru itself is pretty much only subtext as far as yuri is concerned.
Well, the point of using labels is so that one can pass on a fair amount of information efficiently and accurately. But, if a descriptor is so subjective that it means completely different things to different people, it's a pretty useless label. Instead of simplifying communication as they're supposed to, they often end up obfuscating it instead.

I for one, don't like such labels much. One wouldn't call a certain show a romance if it just has some hints of romance between the characters, would they? That's why I don't like it when people call Noir yuri or shoujo-ai. Even if we accept all the hints as genuine signs of romantic love, the classification is too narrow. I don't see anyone calling say Planetes romance.
I completely agree. Nobody labels a show a romance unless it was one of the dominant themes, and everybody is pretty much in agreement with what a romance is. It's an example of a useful label. The way that yuri is used, largely based on the composition of audience of all things, isn't.

You seem to be coming from a "political correctness" perspective in terms of genre definition, or at least that's how it sounds to me, to which I go back to the previous paragraph. Perhaps you can elaborate it for me more, since I'm hardly what you'd call a hardcore adherent of all things yuri and shoujo ai.
And your statement is precisely why I dislike misused labels so much. They're sometimes used as value statements rather than the descriptors that they're supposed to be. And they're used as a way of turning debates into arguments over semantic definition.

The easiest way I can think of to test if something is a main theme of a show is to simply imagine the show without said theme. If the show is still functionally the same, then it wasn't a main theme. All subtext, by definition, is subject to interpretation (and a certain portion of the audience is supposed to miss it), and if it's changed, it won't affect the show itself. That's why, even though romance is an element of roughly 90% of all shows out there, only a small number of them are actually considered romance shows.

Again, I don't understand. Wrong usage of the term is one thing, but why use it at all to differentiate one show from the other if it isn't descriptive at all?
That's because the terms can be descriptive. In its original usage, harem shows had a very precise definition: a guy living with a bunch of girls who were vying for his affections. However, the old definition has been used and abused so much that it's no longer meaningful. That's why every time harem shows are brought up, people have to first fight over what it actually means.

Like I said, I wasn't necessarily talking about shows that center on that theme alone. I'm referring to shows that either center on that theme or have "enough of it" to warrant such a distinction. A good example that I can think of is Noir. The creators themselves have said that they didn't write the story with that intention in mind, but they also mentioned that fans are free to interpret it as they see fit. Even today, Noir is seen as a favorite among yuri and shoujo ai fans for its gold mine of interpreted subtext, even though the show was meant to be a stylish action title first. The nature or image of a story becomes changed?reappropriated?depending on the audience that consumes it, sometimes unfairly or in error, and this brings me to the point of my first paragraph.
Remove the subtext from the show, and is anything significant changed? I'd imagine that Chloe's character would change a bit, but that's all. Attempting to define Noir by who likes watching it seems like an exercise in futility - it makes far more sense to simply examine what the show by its content.

I haven't watched Simoun but it seems to me that it's exactly the type of show that revolves around the idea of attracting yuri/shoujo ai and moe fans more than anything. The "bait" is clearly enticing enough, and I'm pretty sure that's how it's recognized (as yuri/shoujo ai anime) by a lot of people.
This impression is quite incorrect. In fact, a lot of people who started watching it expecting some sort of yuri-heavy show ended up being quite disappointed. While it certainly has lesbian couples in it, it also has gay couples, and heterosexual couples - does that mean its simultaneously a romance, a yuri show and a shounen-ai show? I would say that it's far form the case. Instead, it's a show about growing up more than anything else. In fact, Simoun would fit the OP very well since it wouldn't work at all if the main characters were adults.

kujoe
2007-06-15, 00:36
The easiest way I can think of to test if something is a main theme of a show is to simply imagine the show without said theme. If the show is still functionally the same, then it wasn't a main theme. All subtext, by definition, is subject to interpretation (and a certain portion of the audience is supposed to miss it), and if it's changed, it won't affect the show itself. That's why, even though romance is an element of roughly 90% of all shows out there, only a small number of them are actually considered romance shows.
Actually, what you bring up is related to something I've often felt needed to be criticized or discussed. The standpoint which I took upon myself is actually a criticism from my part regarding the representation of established categories of genres, of how fans sometimes take it upon themselves to represent a series by means of so-called subtext or themes, when in truth "subtext" itself is actually made to mean one's interpretation or preference.

Fans drive the industry as much they support (regulate?) it in this sense. For better or for worse, something can be said with regard to how fandom mentality defines and represents what it consumes—whether it's doing it wrong or otherwise. But this is a different topic entirely on its own.

Nergol
2007-06-15, 01:51
In America, anime is an adult hobby. In Japan, anime is aimed at and marketed to the 13-17 market mainly. Thus, the characters are those that that demographic can identify with. That's the ugly truth. Sorry.

Revenger1589
2007-06-15, 03:50
In America, anime is an adult hobby. In Japan, anime is aimed at and marketed to the 13-17 market mainly. Thus, the characters are those that that demographic can identify with. That's the ugly truth. Sorry.

I have to say something after reading that. I'm no expert on these but you are wrong, and the real truth us uglier in fact.

Anime, like any TV show, may be aimed at kids, teenegars, or adults. But when we are talking about the ones aimed at 13 and up, we are talking about otaku anime. The average persom in Japan doesent watch anime, and if he/she does, he/she won't admit it to "normal people", because that would be coming out as an Otaku.

Most anime that are talk about here are the ones aimed at Otaku, and air very late at night. These shows make money thanks to merchandaising and DVD sales, and the ones who buy these are young adults who have jobs.

The fact that the protagonist is a tennager doesen't mean that the show is aimed at that demographic. Most H-games have teen protags but are for people 18 and up.

So in the end, anime is aimed at Otaku, and specifically to the ones who buy the DVD's and other related goods, which is where the money is. :cool:

Honey_and_Cleaver
2007-06-15, 09:29
Yeah im tired with this teen heroes, even if they were older, they still act like one. But its been more than 10 years that weve never seen mature men to play as main roles.

Im glad that the most latest animes such as Darker than Black and Kaze no Stigma had mature men to lead,i think sooner or later, people will get fed up of immature shounen heroes.

I wouldnt mind a lot of shounen lead, but i hope they are mature like Train from Black Cat, Kira Yamato from GSD,Ichigo from Bleach or Zed from Kiba. I woundlnt want some whiny and immature guy like Shin from GSD, a harem shounen like Nagasarete,Seto no Hayome, Negima, etc or someone smartass,easy and showoff like Lulouch or Naruto. These characters are already way too overused,being too dislikable and untoleratable.

Yosho
2007-10-22, 14:21
I was thinking more along the lines of not liking Detective Conan or Hikaru no Go because the protagonists were kids. However, your first point has very little to do with age, and the second point is more a case of questionable writing than it has to do with age.

Strictly speaking, never. However, Japan takes it to a much greater degree than most countries in the West.

C'mon everyone's thinking it, and you’re all alluding to it. Japan has a very large and more accepted pedophile population. There I said it. Whew that was tough. :heh: *Hides*
But really it's true to a large extent. I can't tell you how many stories I hear from friends that visit Japan that are examples of pedophilia. Let alone some of the people that actually live there. Some of them even participate! So take that population, mixed in with a younger target audience, and possibly the nestalgia crowd; it's no wonder these types of Anime's sell big.

Now I know people are going to flame me for this, so I'm asking; please be gentle. :naughty:

This topic, for me, has actually annoyed me more and more lately. I don't dislike high-school settings; it's just that there is very little variety. And when a senior in high school looks like a 13 year old? That takes the cake. Kinda like how a 23 year old passes for a high schooler in American movies. It just doesn't work!

Now to properly explain what I find refreshing. Take Fate Stay Night. It's a high school setting; most of the characters are obviously young. HOWEVER, they don't look loligag young. I'm not sure if they "looked their age" because with all the jailbait looking like college busty blonde knockouts, my age judging sensor is really on the fritz. But really I agree with all of you, older genre anime would be much appreciated.

I digress…I do that a lot. ^_^ So anyways this is just yet another thread asking…no…begging the man to make us a more rounded population, with more varied stories, so that we Otaku can relate more stories to more people and infect the entire world with it’s glory!! Mwahahahamwahahahmwaaahahahahaaaa!!

KholdStare
2007-10-22, 15:31
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but Kimi ga Nozomu Eien offers a very good mix of ages, with the first two episodes featuring the protagonists in high school and the final 12 at college age. It's also special that the anime itself takes place over a 3 year timespan and not stuck with the same 18 year old for the entirety of the anime.

4Tran
2007-10-22, 18:01
C'mon everyone's thinking it, and you’re all alluding to it. Japan has a very large and more accepted pedophile population. There I said it. Whew that was tough.
While there's a certain grain of truth to that, I think the trend in young characters is more based on a different Japanese preoccupation: that of prizing youth. It's common in most countries, but it certainly appears to have more traction in Japan (which ironically, has the smallest youth population in the world).

This topic, for me, has actually annoyed me more and more lately. I don't dislike high-school settings; it's just that there is very little variety. And when a senior in high school looks like a 13 year old? That takes the cake. Kinda like how a 23 year old passes for a high schooler in American movies. It just doesn't work!
There's a grain of truth to the former as well. Traditionally, Japanese people (particularly women) have been fairly petite, so it's not exactly all that rare to have an adult who looks like a grade school student. It only get unrealistic when their mannerisms and cognitive abilities stay at that same level of maturity.

orange.a
2007-10-22, 18:13
Cowboy Bebop
[the other unimportant ones]

Need I say more?

So for all us 20somethings, why don't the anime producers make a more grown up anime?

Ara ara~

Aren't you forgetting someone right after Cowboy Bebop? :mad:

HachiKuro's cast are all in college. And that's REALLY on of the best series ever.

Oppius
2007-10-22, 18:31
As a 22-years old man,I prefer using teenagers and children as main characters.They are easier to develop.Adult characters don't need further development.

There are few adult characters I like.Van from Gun X Sword as example is a person motivated by hatred and revenge.So most of the story are just dedicated for that theme.This also went for Kratos from God of War as non-anime example.

If I can make my own anime right now,I will use teenagers as main characters instead of adults.They also remind me my sweet past when I was one of them.

Geass
2007-10-22, 19:00
*Looks at favorite protagonists* :heh:

The vast majority of my favorite characters are at least 18, if not way older.

Malintex_Terek
2007-10-22, 19:06
I think one of the biggest influences on young people as protagonists is because most people can't have that kind of idealized lifestyle.

Look at any typical modern society. Most children endure a minimum of twelve years of education, which is more "following the flow" rather than serious, hard-core education (it's very inefficient). Follow that with anywhere from one to ten more years of education, then twenty years of getting "enough experience" in a certain field.

That's forty two years worth of drudgery, more than half one's life. We waste our youth to preserve a pained old age, there was no time to "go on an adventure" or to fully use our talents.

In anime shows, people already have the skills that would normally take years to develop by assuming ideal conditions, thus giving them all the time in the world to do whatever without worry.

The romantic youth is one everyone longs for.

Yosho
2007-10-22, 19:06
While there's a certain grain of truth to that


Thanks for the response but just to add some corny humor here, I'd like to ask that you change it to "a colonel of truth" :D

I don't think it's as deep as your making it out to be. Yes there's some "colonel of truth" hehe to what you say but for the most part I don't think it has to do with prized youth. The people as a whole are not that philosophical. It's just as simple as a magazine add. What's more likely for most people to see. The add with the car; or the add with the car with the bikini girl on it? Same thing. They like it because of young girls, it's pleasurable for them to watch, and they also get a good story for their time. If that doesn't prove it then why is it a fact of the cosmos that almost every anime shalt have at least one swimsuit episode?

I'm sure you've read many articles over the years about concerns on pedophilia in the growing youth and adults of Japan and surrounding countries. It's a definite and very real concern among the people there.

But I'm not here to judge or make it all negative, you guys seemed to want a reason for this, so I'm giving you the simplest most likely reasons. And besides like I said before, what this post is really about is that we want variety in our anime so that we can keep the richness of the stories alive and well. That's what we fell in love with to begin with right? Well I'm signing off. Cya guys later!

Matrim
2007-10-23, 09:10
Adult characters don't need further development.

What? That's nonsense. It's not as if man's character is set in stone once he passes puberty. Coming of age is not the only type of character development possible, after all.

hchuang
2007-10-23, 10:48
Look, there are massive number of people watching Naruto, so I guess people can give the typical otaku shows a break.

u know... this thread reminds me of a AIC series called Black Heaven about some married middle aged salary man going through mid life crisis until one day through circumstances saves the world by playing hard rock guitar.... The production was pretty high quality but you know... it simply didn't for me when I was like 19 at the time and it still don't. I am not middle aged, not married, and considers hard rock really a thing of the bygone generation.

If people are looking for something more sophisticated, there are all kind of literary classics. If youth culture gets tiring, there are whole slew of media catering to your mid-life mind-set, like some 60 year old reminiscing about joy of simply everyday life.

For the rest of still watching anime, people still would like to dream just a little longer

Vexx
2007-10-23, 11:41
@Yosho: You're not entirely offbase but you're seriously confusing "pedophilia" with "under-age" issues. The two terms are not equivalent in any legal, moral, or cultural sense and not that isn't just "in my opinion". The term "under-age" is a random local definition for legally defining when a person can give consent to having sex. It usually ranges from 14 (Canada, some US States, some Japanese prefectures, etc) to 18 (pretty ridiculously old but whatever) to "not til dad gets his two cows for the daughter" (even more absurd but so it goes). Pedophilia as a term... is only correctly invokable when someone in the mix is pre-pubescent (<11ish). The "lolita" term involves young women POST-pubescent... 12-15ish. "Lolicon" is such a murky term that I've given up on it having any meaning -- everyone uses it differently. There's also a difference between fictional drawings and actual pornography.... and the fact that 99% of the anime we're discussing has no actual sex in it and any nudity is typically non-sexual or someone is embarrassed. Enough items there for a long term paper, bleh.

Japan also lacks the sexual baggage that Western cultures are mired in (they have their own sorts of baggage but only some of it overlaps and it is situational).

There *is* a fascination with 'youth' just like in most Western cultures but the fact is that stories about young developing characters are easier to tell. Much of Western fiction involves young people encountering new and novel situations to test their character. Star Wars is a 'coming-of-age' story in that respect. Such tales and much of japanese anime is *nostalgic*. Japanese have a LOT of nostalgia for their youthful days, especially considering the crushing corporate structures they mostly work in when they grow up.

So I'm going to posit that you're not *wrong* as such... just incomplete. There are some serious problems... but they're part of a worldwide problem and substantially traceable to 'control and domination' mindsets - dominating those unable to resist or unaware of their options.
:)

Thanks for the response but just to add some corny humor here, I'd like to ask that you change it to "a colonel of truth" :D

I don't think it's as deep as your making it out to be. Yes there's some "colonel of truth" hehe to what you say but for the most part I don't think it has to do with prized youth. The people as a whole are not that philosophical. It's just as simple as a magazine add. What's more likely for most people to see. The add with the car; or the add with the car with the bikini girl on it? Same thing. They like it because of young girls, it's pleasurable for them to watch, and they also get a good story for their time. If that doesn't prove it then why is it a fact of the cosmos that almost every anime shalt have at least one swimsuit episode?

I'm sure you've read many articles over the years about concerns on pedophilia in the growing youth and adults of Japan and surrounding countries. It's a definite and very real concern among the people there.

But I'm not here to judge or make it all negative, you guys seemed to want a reason for this, so I'm giving you the simplest most likely reasons. And besides like I said before, what this post is really about is that we want variety in our anime so that we can keep the richness of the stories alive and well. That's what we fell in love with to begin with right? Well I'm signing off. Cya guys later!

Personally, I tend to prefer the stories involving adult, college, or late-teen characters (e.g. Honey&Clover, Lovely*Complex, Hataraki Man) or stories deeply dipped in japanese/shinto culture(e.g. Kamichu!, Mokke, etc) or slice-o-life (AzuDa, L*S, Sketchbook, etc). There are occasional series involving very young girls but frankly, its the comedy or the drama that draws me in initially (e.g. Nanoha, Ichigo Masimaro, KnJ).

Yosho
2007-10-23, 17:50
*points up to Vexx... :bow: * Now that's a great rebutle. I actually feel better about myself and you after reading that. For a profesional display of the proper way to argue, Domo Arigato

I see your point. I was making it out to be primarily sexual acts in nature; and your right, while that's partly true, it's not the whole picture. No they do not show nudity as a sexual form in these anime's, they would not be able to get away with that I think. However I still don't believe that the rise recently in loli anime's has to do with the just the kids population or that of an "appreciation for youth". If that were so, we would have seen this rise in loli a long time ago. And in many of these Anime's there is an ecchi theme. But then in many, not.

To argue with myself, I suppose the recent boom in computer animated anime's has made it a lot easier and cheaper to experiment with different genre's and this just happened to pick up because of that. Anything to this you think?

aohige
2007-10-23, 21:37
Seriously, WTF is with all the skin-tight spandex wearing superheroes in American comic books?
Sorry, couldn't help. :rolleyes:


@Vexx
All those babbling aside, Japanese really ARE full of lolicons. Myself not included.





No, really, I swear! *nervously twitches and hides his eromanga and eroge collection*

WhiteWings
2007-10-24, 00:39
Although in the old days the concept of children was vague and in many places people became formal adults a lot earlier than modern days... but personally I wish the average ages for the protagonists were just 2~3 years raised to make them a tad more believable.

Vexx
2007-10-24, 02:42
The biggest problem with such young protagonists is that the writers don't have a clue about developmental psychology and it shows in their mischaracterizations.

Youth and teenagers simply do not process their environment the same way as another age group and therefore often do not make the same decisions a person of a different age might. Its really quite interesting to see the psyche studies on various age groups that control for other bias and watch the functional differences.

@aohige: I don't know that Japan has a lock on males fascinated by young women (or women a bit too young), but they don't have the same sort of "religious" strictures binding them (using the word "religious" even though the Bible is full of approved underage activity :) ... much of American prudishness historically derives from Puritan and other religious cult interpretations of "how things ought to work").

panzerfan
2007-10-24, 10:40
The greatest market for anime of course is still for the teen. I do admit that there are too few works that do capture other age groups. As a matter of fact, a piece with protagonists at about 19+ is already sitting at the minority list.

Developing adults can be challenging, although I don't think that it should be a turn-off to focus on that. Look at Legend of Galactic Heroes as the penultimate example of having a massive cast, with a majority adults and even very strong and round characters that are actually past age 40, who in the course of their appearance continue their growth. The majority in that anime is at late 20s to 30s though.

I admit however, that selling 'moe' stereotypes become difficult when the protagonist start off being a functional adult, and even harder if the said protagonist is already a seasoned senior. I am having a hard time with trying to think of a 40+ years old moe meganeko. *People such as Evangeline do not count.

JustInn14
2007-10-24, 15:56
OK, we will create an anime about super powered 89 year olds. :p j/k Well, the way I see it, Japan's lucky to be able to create anime's with teenagers as the prtoganist's. Over here in the states, It's all about the whiny "no older than 11 year's old" crowd. So, think of it this way: You're lucky to have shows from a country smart enough to understand not to make shows speciffically for a lousy "Age Group that doesn't even deserve to watch THAT much teevee" LOLZ. Besides, we all know when "Protoganist's" become younger than the age of SEVEN, it's time to act insane. :p LOLZ.

panzerfan
2007-10-24, 16:16
I have always find the American psyche to be hard to grasp. For one, there seems to be such a rift between realpolitik principles to the neoconservatism that seems to be viewed as the 'staple' American outlook to the world... but I should stop musing on that.

On Nergol's point of how that anime is targeted towards 17 years old... the interesting thing is that the Japanese government now sees animation as a way of promoting itself abroad and is willing to support and embrace this. Acceptance of animation as an entertainment medium suitable for even more mature audience has grown in the last two decades. There was a time when manga weren't even to be read in the Japanese school system actually.

Yosho
2007-10-24, 20:50
@aohige: I don't know that Japan has a lock on males fascinated by young women (or women a bit too young), but they don't have the same sort of "religious" strictures binding them (using the word "religious" even though the Bible is full of approved underage activity :) ... much of American prudishness historically derives from Puritan and other religious cult interpretations of "how things ought to work").

There are 2 things, which I think everyone agrees on, that you don't bring into these kinds of discussions. Religion and politics. They don't end well. So please don't bring either of them in. Those of us that are religious usually don't go spouting, "In the name of the lord..." or "Those immoral atheists..." in these places; so I'd appreciate it if you'd keep anti-religious agenda's out as well; that way we all get along and have a decent discussion like I praised you for earlier.

This is just a conversation about questionable activities, and I think most of us agree on the morality of the issue I brought up. Now as far as saying Japan's culture looks at it differently, that may be. However does that mean we just accept it as "oh, don't worry, it's just their culture." And it may not be as bad as I made out earlier; it may be a fluke that I just seem to hear about. I do think this is an interesting discussion and could shed some light on truths or new idea's.

The greatest market for anime of course is still for the teen. I do admit that there are too few works that do capture other age groups. As a matter of fact, a piece with protagonists at about 19+ is already sitting at the minority list.

Developing adults can be challenging, although I don't think that it should be a turn-off to focus on that. Look at Legend of Galactic Heroes as the penultimate example of having a massive cast, with a majority adults and even very strong and round characters that are actually past age 40, who in the course of their appearance continue their growth. The majority in that anime is at late 20s to 30s though.

I admit however, that selling 'moe' stereotypes become difficult when the protagonist start off being a functional adult, and even harder if the said protagonist is already a seasoned senior. I am having a hard time with trying to think of a 40+ years old moe meganeko. *People such as Evangeline do not count.

LOL, I don't think we just want to shift to all 40+ year olds or even 30+ year olds. I would be happy about having a mix of all ages. I just think a diversity in mature looking characters vs cutsie loli characters would be appreciated. It's funny though, they put kids into adult situations and have to make choices as an adult, which panzerfan talked about. Why can't an adult make adult decisions, or learn about things from the view point of an adult. Trigun I believe was a great example of that. ^_^

Oh, I feel stupid for asking this, but what's "moe"?

On Nergol's point of how that anime is targeted towards 17 years old... the interesting thing is that the Japanese government now sees animation as a way of promoting itself abroad and is willing to support and embrace this. Acceptance of animation as an entertainment medium suitable for even more mature audience has grown in the last two decades. There was a time when manga weren't even to be read in the Japanese school system actually.

I'm not sure I follow correctly. What do you mean about the governments involvement? Besides asking for everyone to stop fan-subbing what else are they doing?

Vexx
2007-10-24, 21:41
There are 2 things, which I think everyone agrees on, that you don't bring into these kinds of discussions. Religion and politics. They don't end well. So please don't bring either of them in. Those of us that are religious usually don't go spouting, "In the name of the lord..." or "Those immoral atheists..." in these places; so I'd appreciate it if you'd keep anti-religious agenda's out as well; that way we all get along and have a decent discussion like I praised you for earlier.


Not to derail.. but what exactly did I say that was "anti-religious"?
1) Many American social values and strictures are descended from Puritanical viewpoints - that is historical.
2) The Puritans were a religious cult by any definition of the term. They were not mainstream Christianity at the time and their modus operandi was a dictionary definition of "cult".
3) Modern Americans often have no idea where their social and sexual value systems come from -- they just kind of wave their arms and say, "well... because that is just the way it is".
4) The Bible contains many stories of 'underage sexual activity'. Do I need to list them? It starts off in Genesis (Lot and his daughters being one example) and carries through Moses and into the New Testament.
5) Until one has *been* to another country and gotten off the beaten track, one sometimes really doesn't realize how the cultural (social/religious) atmosphere of one's own country permeates everything.
6) Males all over the planet tend to be fascinated with younger women ... how they deal with that depends to a degree on the obstacles placed in their path (social obstacles include religion).

Pointing out some of the underlying basis for sexual mores is necessary to compare cultures. You really can't have a cultural discussion without including the spiritual motivators or affectors involved.

To answer your question about "moe" ... well, one could wiki it but "moe" is a word kind of like "gestalt" or the more amusing "grok" - it is hard to describe properly. Think "cute and cuddly sometimes with a whiff of sexuality" -- you are compelled to defend the instantiation of "moe" from any evil that might afflict it -- a good "moe" melts your prefrontal cortex in a happy way. Other people will have variations on that theme to describe the concept.

panzerfan
2007-10-25, 09:28
I'm not sure I follow correctly. What do you mean about the governments involvement? Besides asking for everyone to stop fan-subbing what else are they doing?
Koizumi administration had officially come out with using anime as an advertisement medium for Japanese culture to abroad, which a decade ago would have been unacceptable to the government. Besides, the proposal itself which is available mentions of copyright infringement as one subsection, and it does not look to be out of the line with WTO perspective of copyright...

Yosho
2007-10-25, 11:10
Not to derail.. but what exactly did I say that was "anti-religious"?
1) Many American social values and strictures are descended from Puritanical viewpoints - that is historical.
2) The Puritans were a religious cult by any definition of the term. They were not mainstream Christianity at the time and their modus operandi was a dictionary definition of "cult".
3) Modern Americans often have no idea where their social and sexual value systems come from -- they just kind of wave their arms and say, "well... because that is just the way it is".
4) The Bible contains many stories of 'underage sexual activity'. Do I need to list them? It starts off in Genesis (Lot and his daughters being one example) and carries through Moses and into the New Testament.
5) Until one has *been* to another country and gotten off the beaten track, one sometimes really doesn't realize how the cultural (social/religious) atmosphere of one's own country permeates everything.
6) Males all over the planet tend to be fascinated with younger women ... how they deal with that depends to a degree on the obstacles placed in their path (social obstacles include religion).

Pointing out some of the underlying basis for sexual mores is necessary to compare cultures. You really can't have a cultural discussion without including the spiritual motivators or affectors involved.

:rolleyes: hai, hai. *forgets about trying to discuss the actual topic*


To answer your question about "moe" ... well, one could wiki it but "moe" is a word kind of like "gestalt" or the more amusing "grok" - it is hard to describe properly. Think "cute and cuddly with a whiff of sexuality" but not necessarily -- you are compelled to defend the instantiation of "moe" from any evil that might afflict it -- a good "moe" melts your prefrontal cortex in a happy way. Other people will have variations on that theme to describe the concept.

Thanks. Now I undertand.

Koizumi administration had officially come out with using anime as an advertisement medium for Japanese culture to abroad, which a decade ago would have been unacceptable to the government. Besides, the proposal itself which is available mentions of copyright infringement as one subsection, and it does not look to be out of the line with WTO perspective of copyright...

hmmm...so you mean increasing awareness of the Japanese culture around the world, through the use of Anime media? Are you referring to an increase in pushing Anime out to other countries around the world?

SGT.Mitsuki
2007-10-26, 01:51
Am I the only one tired of the endless protagonists with a 1 in the decades column of their ages, who usually don't even break 18 years old (legal age)? Why is it that most anime has angst-on-legs for main characters? Wouldn't it be nice for a change NOT to have personified angst representing the face of the show?

Hell, some of the best anime EVER (or at least their characters) were such that they broke this rule:

Cowboy Bebop
Gundam SEED Destiny (Kira and Lacus are officially legal!)
Trigun
Outlaw Star
Ah My Goddess (if it's not good period, I know Belldandy has made her way into the Parthenon with Lacus, Yuna, Tifa, Saber, and Rider :heh: )

Need I say more?

So for all us 20somethings, why don't the anime producers make a more grown up anime?

how about that anime with that photographer think it was called speed grapher or something?
and Black Lagoons chars aint watcha call highschool chars either, its quite a mature series :) *grins* (with guns, action and story ~Drools~) :D ^^ :)

anyways, speed grapher, black lagoon, Flag, Moonlight Mile
(tho i wonder if shinsen subs will ever finish it ~with that i meen FLAG~ :p )

Ryougi Shiki
2007-10-26, 12:20
What about Berserk? Monster? Hellsing? Kenshin? Zombie Powder? Great Teacher Onizuka?

aohige
2007-10-26, 15:53
What about Berserk? Monster? Hellsing? Kenshin? Zombie Powder? Great Teacher Onizuka?

You just mentioned six titles over the span of over ten years of broadcasting. :heh:
Of course there are those that doesn't fit with the mold, but it doesn't change the fact that majority of the shows follow the mold.

In the early to mid eighties, it seems that many of the memorable anime had adult protagonists.
Cobra, Kenshiro, Kinnikuman, Saeba Ryo, Cats Eye sisters, etc, etc. But it may be simply because shows that followed a mold of simple unoriginal pattern didn't stick to my memory, and the rule of majority may not have changed since.