PDA

View Full Version : Geneon stops all productions


Genjo
2007-09-26, 11:11
Geneon Exits American Anime Industry
Geneon USA has officially informed retailers that as of 5 PM PDT this Friday, September 28th, the company will cease all DVD production, sales, and distribution.

All Geneon USA DVD titles scheduled for release after November 11, 2007 have apparently been canceled.
Taken from Animenation news



The onetime anime distribution company Geneon Entertainment (USA) Inc. has notified its retail customers that it will cease "the sales of DVDs and all related distribution and marketing operations as of 5 p.m. on Friday, September 28, 2007." The deadline for ordering all Geneon USA products is that time and date, and only orders for "catalog products in inventory or new releases with a street date" of November 6 or earlier will be accepted. Any outstanding retail orders will ship as soon as stock is available. No more returns will be accepted after 5:00 p.m. on November 30. The letter to retailers also says that "payables to Geneon remain unchanged."
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4510/geneonprvb7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The letter does not address the issue of the future availability of titles, nor does it discuss Geneon USA's future production plans.

The Geneon USA letter to retailer cites the termination of the proposed sales and distribution alliance with A.D. Vision, Inc. as the reason. Geneon USA had laid off much of its own sales and marketing teams earlier this month. Geneon USA's parent company, the Japanese advertising firm Dentsu Inc., said that "from October 1, 2007, Geneon USA will focus mainly on management of its works portfolio."
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-09-26/geneon-usa-to-cancel-dvd-sales-distribution-by-friday
Taken form Animenewsnetwork
More info about it.

wow i wonder what's going to happend to them.

Royal_Devil
2007-09-26, 11:31
Pretty much every series I'm in the middle of collecting at the moment is licensed by Geneon, most prominantly are Black Lagoon and Hellsing Ultimate. :(

Good thing Ergo Proxy's finished its release this week.

User65554
2007-09-26, 11:37
Wait, aren't they the guys who do/will do/would be doing Higurashi?
Doubt it could be related, though.

Cyz
2007-09-26, 11:38
What!? How on earth am I gonna finish my Story of Saiunkoku now? Man, this sucks! And Geneon licensed good animes too.

Genjo
2007-09-26, 11:38
well the only one i have from them is Fate/stay night and rest i have are ADV or D-rights etc but i feel kind sad for Geneon going out so fast specialy when they pick-up Shana and few others :(

Royal_Devil
2007-09-26, 11:40
Wait, aren't they the guys who do/will do/would be doing Higurashi?
Doubt it could be related, though.

Geneon's released the first 3 DVD volumes with the 4th set for December. Or at least it was set :(

Cyz
2007-09-26, 11:41
Not to mention leaving Saiunkoku and Higurashi hanging too. Plus, if Geneon is now quitting, that means Zero no Tsukaima isn't licensed anymore then? But why in the world they quit all of a sudden anyway? Financial difficulties maybe?

NightWish
2007-09-26, 11:42
Wait, aren't they the guys who do/will do/would be doing Higurashi? Doubt it could be related, though.They are. The fact that they bought the license to Higurashi probably (I don't work for them so can't say for sure) has nothing to do with the move to close down their distribution operation. They've been in talks with ADV for a while (about effectivly outsourcing the parts that are apparently defunct as of the 31st of December this year) but they fell through (http://www.animeondvd.com/news/pr.php?pr_view=1154).

AnimeOnDVD (http://www.animeondvd.com)'s summary of the letter sent out by Geneon (http://www.animeondvd.com/news/pr.php?pr_view=1156) today:Though the finality of things is still up in the air, Geneon Entertainment has sent out information to retailers regarding their 4th quarter plans. According to the information, Geneon will be shipping all releases they have in the queue for street dates through 11/05/2007. All orders placed after this coming Friday is non-returnable. As of 12/31/2007, they will be shutting down, apparently completely as AnimeNation is listing everything past 11/11/2007 as canceled. Plans for beyond 12/31/2007 are still up in the air but what little is being said indicates that they're intending to focus on their own properties in a similar way to Kadokawa Pictures USA is doing things.

if Geneon is now quitting, that means Zero no Tsukaima isn't licensed anymore then?Nope. Not at all. Note that currently it is only their distribution and marketing that are ceasing operation. Doesn't mean they have sold (or otherwise relinquished) their licensing rights.

But why in the world they quit all of a sudden anyway? Financial difficulties maybe?That is one reason, though it could be a decision made by their parent company. Impossible to say for sure without some sort of specific press release, but I can't see one of those being made.

DragoonKain3
2007-09-26, 11:49
WHAT THE #!@%@$? I want my Higurashi dammit! What the heck happened?

And man, I have to hunt down Cardcaptor Sakura DVDs before they skyrocket in prices even more. Also gotta get that Gankutsuou box set as well...

Things I have from them already...
Arjuna
Fafner
Koi Kaze
Someday's Dreamers
Starship Opertators
Stellvia
Tsukihime

Thinking of getting...
Gatekeepers (just for ol' osana-najimi's sake)
Kamichu
Karin (actually, maybe not since its not the complete set)
Shana
Sugar
X TV


Hopefully they revive like Media Blasters did.


EDIT:
Hmm... looking at what Geneon and its parent company (dentsu) is involved in...
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=2151
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=249

At the very least, Fate/Stay night most probably would be continued if or whenever they revive. Looking on the bright side, there's some titles on those two pages I wouldn't mind owning in R1, but that's a long time away.

But I guess that's what they get for allying with another company. ADV cancelling their 'contract' to distribute their titles just made it unfeasible for them to stay in the anime industry, since they layed off their marketing staff since they thought they have no need of them anymore.

Nightbat®
2007-09-26, 13:00
ok,... now what is the reason for this?

SeijiSensei
2007-09-26, 13:12
I thought this sentence from CoreMaster's post seemed significant:
"Geneon USA's parent company, the Japanese advertising firm Dentsu Inc., said that "from October 1, 2007, Geneon USA will focus mainly on management of its works portfolio."

It sounds like Geneon was having problems building up the marketing and distribution infrastructure it needed to operate effectively in the US. I'd guess that was a reason for the negotiations with ADV. The fact that ADV bowed out suggests that ADV determined Geneon's limited US assets weren't worth what Dentsu was asking. If, as Dentsu claims, Geneon will now focus on managing its portfolio, I wouldn't be surprised to see sub-licensing agreements with companies like ADV who already have the infrastructure in place to produce and distribute DVDs.

I remember when I was watching Black Lagoon thinking that Geneon appeared to making a strategic choice to develop works that could have appeal on both sides of the Pacific. Maybe they were just too optimistic about the size or growth rate of the North American market.

I guess I'm glad I follow shows like Dennou Coil or Oh! Edo Rocket that are obscure enough that they don't attract R1 licensors. Still, I was planning on buying Saiunkoku Monogatari after all the DVDs were released. The other big loser for me is Seirei no Moribito, to which Geneon purchased the rights even before the show started airing in Japan. Given it's Production I.G.'s current flagship production, I'm guessing someone will distribute it in R1. Seirei was the first of the shows being produced as part of Dentsu/Geneon's deal with Mitsubishi (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2006-06-06/d-rights-acquires-34-percent-stake-in-geneon-entertainment). I wonder what will happen to that?

Spectacular_Insanity
2007-09-26, 13:15
How could they do this to us? They've liscenced easily half the anime I've watched!

Midonin
2007-09-26, 13:18
I hope that Nanoha and Zero no Tsukaima can still get their US DVD releases. I was really looking forward to getting them.

Polaryzed_123
2007-09-26, 13:19
Me very, very sad. I already had a killer X-mas list going that included all released Black Lagoon and Higurashi DVD's, to name a couple. I REALLY, REALLY hope that this is temporary.

ayukanon45
2007-09-26, 13:30
sooo... does this mean that i wont get to finish higurashi in english?

Cyz
2007-09-26, 13:37
I hope that Nanoha and Zero no Tsukaima can still get their US DVD releases. I was really looking forward to getting them.
They might give the license to someone else.....maybe but that's not likely. Hmm, maybe Bandai might picked it up or ADV but not sure about that either. Well, there aren't any news that Geneon are dropping all the licensed animes as Nightwish said.


--> Whew! Good thing they weren't the one that licensed AIR and Kanon and also picked up the second season of Ah My Goddess :nod: Still, I'm still sad because I won't be able to complete Saiunkoku now.

Kamui4356
2007-09-26, 13:40
I'm sorry to hear this. They had some upcoming releases I was really looking forward to, like Nanoha. Geneon releases make up a good portion of my dvd collection. Hopefully they can sort things out and get some of their upcoming releases out somehow.

bayoab
2007-09-26, 13:40
The production stop hasn't been announced by anyone else. I have no idea where AN is getting that. AoD and ANN both seem to say it's future is unknown.

DeshoDesho
2007-09-26, 13:58
that too bad,i was hoping to grab the R1 Zero no Tsukaima DVD,lets hope it gets licensed soon

Alexandrite
2007-09-26, 14:04
Well... crap. If this is true, then there's a lot I won't get to see that I was planning on buying. Some of those dvds are going to get pretty expensive soon, so my plans to pick up Fate/Stay Night and Rozen Maiden are looking grim. Plus, Karin never finished, did it? And wasn't Rozen Maiden ~Träumend~ supposed to start being released soon? On top of that, now Nanoha won't be released... Curse you, Geneon. You've made me sad.

Xellos-_^
2007-09-26, 14:08
The production stop hasn't been announced by anyone else. I have no idea where AN is getting that. AoD and ANN both seem to say it's future is unknown.

It has been announce by Rightstuf on the front page of thier website assuring buyers they havbe sufficent stock of any release up to 11/13 but people should order asap if they plan to order anything.

Honda Boy Techy
2007-09-26, 15:05
well, i ain't sure what all i want that is on the Geneon label but I hope whatever they have will be released under a different company (ADV, Funimation, Bandai, etc.) I don't have much money due to lack of hours at work, so I may not be able to get anything I want from them in time. I don't like the idea but if there is something I wanna see bad enough that I can't get cause of this, I may have to download a torrent.

hideFan
2007-09-26, 15:38
Ahh depression... how you love to revisit me >.>

sothis
2007-09-26, 15:51
this is pretty much terrible. though ADV (imo) puts out the highest quality product (quality meaning awesome thinpaks, sturdy boxes, no crappy digipaks/bricks anymore, etc), geneon licensed almost EVERYTHING that i love. i really, really hope other companies pick up the licenses for tons of good shows in the future.

Xellos-_^
2007-09-26, 15:56
Genon hasn't said they are closing thier doors yet. And hopfully they are not. Genon is one of ther companies i really didn't think would be in financial trouble. If Genon is in financial trouble i hate to see how some of the smaller companies are doing.

bayoab
2007-09-26, 16:10
Genon hasn't said they are closing thier doors yet. And hopfully they are not. Genon is one of ther companies i really didn't think would be in financial trouble. If Genon is in financial trouble i hate to see how some of the smaller companies are doing.
If you read what the Geneon reps have been posting, this isn't actually about being in financial trouble. This is about the parent company not happy with how things were going even though they were meeting targets for most things.

Echoes
2007-09-26, 16:38
That's indeed unfortunate, I too was looking forward to Zero no Tsukaima and Higurashi among others. :(
Hopefully something will work out, but this is a sudden punch below the belt. *Goes off to be depressed*

Green²
2007-09-26, 16:41
Of course this has everybody wondering on what will become of the current titles that are under production, and if the works will be managed by someone else or not. That leaving a lot of uncertainty for the buyer. Nobody really wants to invest in what may be only to be a half-produced series. This will hurt their latest title sales big time, if they don't clearly put out some kind of info as to what will become of them.

Or maybe it's just as plain as that, and things are really worse than they seem. :(

NightWish
2007-09-26, 18:09
How could they do this to us? They've liscenced easily half the anime I've watched!huh? You make it sound like they set out to hurt you or stop you watching anime. They haven't done anything to us. If we're honest the question should probably be the other way around. It would be an odd company that wants have to wind down its operations; more likely they have been forced into the position. The question should probably be: what have we (i.e. anime watchers) done to them... or what have we not done for them that has contributed the the infeasibility of their operation. Note that is a rhetorical question that does not imply there is anything we could have done... I'm just pointing out you shouldn't feel slighted by them, at least not without more facts about why their distro operations had to stop.

Vexx
2007-09-26, 18:24
Crap... I forgot about Nanoha ..... <grrrrrrrrrrr>

Did Karin ever get started even? (I assume you mean the "embarrassing" bloodgiving vampire?)

It is a bit odd that the announcement lacks any explanatory data at all.

guest
2007-09-26, 18:27
Just my luck. :( I just got a raise and was thinking I can finally stock up my DVD. Uggh! :mad: My Nanoha and Higurashi DVDs are probably going to be a never-seen (never-existed?). I will try to get star operators and see what else I want. Uggghhhh! :mad: :mad:

hideFan
2007-09-26, 18:42
I figure they will either:
A. Finish their on-going projects and hand the rest over to another company to deal with dubbing and distro.
or
B. Make a contract with another company to handle their shows based on a set of standards they set (Like Kodakawa).

In either case, lets hope that its not Media Blasters that they entrust with their shows or else we may get half-assed sub only releases... XD! (that was slightly sarcastic to those of you who didnt realize.)

Honda Boy Techy
2007-09-26, 18:50
Did Karin ever get started even? (I assume you mean the "embarrassing" bloodgiving vampire?)

Yeah it did. I saw it at Best Buy a month or 2 ago.

Vexx
2007-09-26, 19:19
Hmmm, I might get my Karin volume 4 (street date 11/13/07) since they usually pop out early.... (just ordered 1-3, and pre-ordered 4).

Wait.... this is an ANN announcement? ... ... ... ... Tags it with label "SUSPECT" til otherwise verified. In other words all we really have is a large mound of uncertainty about what that means in regard to series currently in production.

wingdarkness
2007-09-26, 19:23
This is the first time in 9 years of leeching that I feel pi$$ed that I may have contributed to this...Of all the anime DVD's I own you'll see the Geneon label more than 60%...If leeching is a component of Geneon getting the axe, I'm finally gonna have an epiphany T_T...Because they're simply the best...

mdauben
2007-09-26, 19:24
Crap... I forgot about Nanoha ..... <grrrrrrrrrrr>

Did Karin ever get started even? (I assume you mean the "embarrassing" bloodgiving vampire?)
Yeah, the first few disks of Karin have been released, but it does not look like it will all be out by the cut-off date in the announcement from Geneon. Likewise Higurashi and Rozen Maiden (to name the other two Geneon titles on my pre-order list).

And then there is Nanoha.... :upset:

CandyVanMan
2007-09-26, 19:26
This royally bites the big one!:frustrated: I have boxes for Karin, Rozen Maiden, and Higurashi. I have DVD-1 for Sainkoku. I buy R1 for every fansub I watch and then some. I buy special editions whenever possible. I'll gladly buy a DVD with overpriced shwag.

I've already watched the shows. I already know the story. I've already seen the end. I want to support the industry. I gladly re-watch every single episode with the R1 sub. I have up to two months worth of active pre-orders on my Amazon account.

I truly hope they simply re-organize their sales, marketing, and accounting practices and get back on the job so I can start throwing money at them again. All these partially filled boxes on my bookshelf are guaranteed sales for them. In fact, most of it is already pre-ordered. They just have to make the disks.

Supersonic
2007-09-26, 19:43
I would like it if the A-S staff would treat Geneon's titles as if they were unlicensed until they are licensed to an anime company actually capable of...you know, selling anime, but I guess that would be too much to ask.

NightWish
2007-09-26, 19:46
I would like it if the A-S staff would treat Geneon's titles as if they were unlicensed... I guess that would be too much to ask.Yup, it would. Please don't ask again.

Supersonic
2007-09-26, 19:51
Yup, it would. Please don't ask again.

You got it boss, I won't ask again. It seems like asking you the first time pissed you off enough.

Xellos-_^
2007-09-26, 19:54
Hmmm, I might get my Karin volume 4 (street date 11/13/07) since they usually pop out early.... (just ordered 1-3, and pre-ordered 4).

Wait.... this is an ANN announcement? ... ... ... ... Tags it with label "SUSPECT" til otherwise verified. In other words all we really have is a large mound of uncertainty about what that means in regard to series currently in production.

There is also a announcement on the Rightstuf website. So it is no rumor.

Kamui4356
2007-09-26, 20:37
This is the first time in 9 years of leeching that I feel pi$$ed that I may have contributed to this...Of all the anime DVD's I own you'll see the Geneon label more than 60%...If leeching is a component of Geneon getting the axe, I'm finally gonna have an epiphany T_T...Because they're simply the best...

If Geneon titles make up more than 60% of what you have on dvd, I don't see how you could blame yourself for not buying enough.

wingdarkness
2007-09-26, 21:42
If Geneon titles make up more than 60% of what you have on dvd, I don't see how you could blame yourself for not buying enough.

Well your jaw might drop in surprise to how many Geneon series I haven't bought too...And I have 3 series that were completely bought black-market style...So yeah I kinda suck if I'm partially to blame...My platform has always been based upon the lack of companies failing verses the overly-verbose arguments against the leeching community...Geneon seems to be the most quality name I've ever seen fold in my 9 years of using my defense...I guess I'm still curious to whether or not this was a factor...Maybe I'm just overreating...

Supersonic
2007-09-26, 21:53
Well your jaw might drop in surprise to how many Geneon series I haven't bought too...And I have 3 series that were completely bought black-market style...So yeah I kinda suck if I'm partially to blame...My platform has always been based upon the lack of companies failing verses the overly-verbose arguments against the leeching community...Geneon seems to be the most quality name I've ever seen fold in my 9 years of using my defense...I guess I'm still curious to whether or not this was a factor...Maybe I'm just overreating...

Anyone who says that fansubbing is not at least a contributing factor to Geneon's downfall is fooling themselves. People download the fansubs and then "forget" to buy the title when it's licensed. It happens all the time and I'm guilty of it as well, but frankly I just throw away the discs and put my burnt off fansubs in the pretty case when I do buy DVD's so it's kinda hard for a guy like me to be convinced to buy unless it's a series I feel especially urged to support (usually I buy the R2 DVD's when this is the case, however).

hideFan
2007-09-26, 22:04
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/survey/

The fate of Geneon could be in our hands! -hits a dramatic chord-

You guys should fill out the survey to keep thier spirits up, and our anime comming!

Aoie_Emesai
2007-09-26, 22:10
They might give the license to someone else.....maybe but that's not likely. Hmm, maybe Bandai might picked it up or ADV but not sure about that either. Well, there aren't any news that Geneon are dropping all the licensed animes as Nightwish said.


--> Whew! Good thing they weren't the one that licensed AIR and Kanon and also picked up the second season of Ah My Goddess :nod: Still, I'm still sad because I won't be able to complete Saiunkoku now.

ADV picks up everything, so mostly likely they'll do it too.

serenade_beta
2007-09-26, 22:58
Oh dear, this is horrible.

This is quite a blow...

*slumps on the wall*

Dop
2007-09-27, 04:55
Eek!

Perhaps this just means they'll be out-sourcing the distribution and marketing side of things, and I'd certainly hope that after some kind of transition period while they sort things out and find new business partners we'll see the return of Geneon-licenced series, such as the remaining volumes of When They Cry (I had been buying the DVDs, so I'd be a bit miffed if I had an uncompleted set. Best not delete the old fansubs yet, just in case!) or forthcoming series like Nanoha.

Hopefully... Fingers crossed.

JKL
2007-09-27, 05:11
A sad day for the R1 market.

cyth
2007-09-27, 06:46
Anyone who says that fansubbing is not at least a contributing factor to Geneon's downfall is fooling themselves.Fansubbing has always been a contributing factor to the industry, and it wasn't necessarily a negative one in most cases, but Geneon's "downfall" has more to do with Dentsu's (Geneon USA's parent company) unrealistic demands that were influenced by deinvestments done on the behalf of Mitsubishi and D-rights. Geneon were meeting their targets prior to the fiasco, according to their representatives who posted on AoD.
Yeah, sure, leechers could be purchasing more, but seriously, no company is fooling themselves anymore about fansubbing and its positive contributions. Obscure titles without fansubs do not receive enough exposure among 'hardcore' fans who are willing to purchase them. Geneon USA dealt with obscure newer titles more than any company. Fansubbing does its role, but after that everything lies on the hands of the distributors.
I believe Geneon USA was one company fansubbers liked the most. We gave their properties a fair loving, the consumers gave loving back to Geneon. The only downside to their titles were somewhat steep retail prices, but not many questioned the quality of their products. It was a great company with a consistently positive reputation among the fansubbing crowds. It will be missed.

FatPianoBoy
2007-09-27, 06:59
I believe Geneon USA was one company fansubbers liked the most. We gave their properties a fair loving, the consumers gave loving back to Geneon. The only downside to their titles were somewhat steep retail prices, but not many questioned the quality of their products. It was a great company with a consistently positive reputation among the fansubbing crowds. It will be missed.
Indeed.
Of course, if I like a series enough, I'll buy it no matter who grabbed it up, but I was always happy to hear when Geneon got something I liked. Fansubbers, who already get good quality product for free, are not easily parted with their money. That the fansubbing community in general held them in such high esteem says quite a bit.
They will be sorely missed :(

mdauben
2007-09-27, 09:38
Anyone who says that fansubbing is not at least a contributing factor to Geneon's downfall is fooling themselves.
Actually, there is little or no hard evidence that fansubbing or filesharing has any significant impact on the sales of entertainment media. There are a lot of other factors that can be proven to contribute to poor sales, but these are often forgotten in the infamatory "anti-pirating" rhetoric from media companies. :rolleyes:

People download the fansubs and then "forget" to buy the title when it's licensed.
The problem with assertion is that most of those people don't "forget" to buy the DVDs, but rather that they would probably never have bought them at all. That is the factor that is ignored by the industry. Every downloaded title is not a lost sale, in most cases it is a sale that probably never would have been made, anyway.

It happens all the time.
I download a lot of anime, but I also follow up with purchases of any titles that I actually like and which actually get licenced in the US, and I always encorage others to do the same. Remember that in Japan, anime companies put their shows on TV just to expose people to them and generate DVD sales. In the market outside Japan, there is much less TV exposure of anime titles, and the only way people can be exposed to most new titles (without just blind buying of DVDs based on magazine reviews) is through fansubs. I would not have purchased half the anime DVDs I have, if I had not first viewed and fallen in love with the shows as fansubs. :)

So, the way to support Geneon and the industry is not through restricting fansubs, but through actually buying more DVDs. ;)

bayoab
2007-09-27, 13:26
Obscure titles without fansubs do not receive enough exposure among 'hardcore' fans who are willing to purchase them.
This is incorrect and bad logic.
I believe Geneon USA was one company fansubbers liked the most.
No. They did not "like" them. They knew fansubs help some titles, but it killed a number of titles for them too.

Supersonic
2007-09-27, 14:07
Yeah, sure, leechers could be purchasing more, but seriously, no company is fooling themselves anymore about fansubbing and its positive contributions. Obscure titles without fansubs do not receive enough exposure among 'hardcore' fans who are willing to purchase them. Geneon USA dealt with obscure newer titles more than any company. Fansubbing does its role, but after that everything lies on the hands of the distributors.

Well, to me I think you're underestimating the "frugality" of the average leech. Sure, "hardcore" fans will always buy the DVD collector's edition boxsets that come with a free Haruhi blow-up doll, but that's not the average user. The average user will take the path of least resistance. If that's paying $20 for a DVD or spending 3 hours downloading a torrent, that's the path he'll take.

Very few leechers actually care about the intricate "moral code" that the fansubbing community has.

No. They did not "like" them. They knew fansubs help some titles, but it killed a number of titles for them too.

Pretty much this. The "exposure" benefit that we're talking about only really balances out the "cheap bastard" detriment for very obscure titles.

Xellos-_^
2007-09-27, 14:26
i thinl someone else earlier reported but Genon's problem isn't making making enough sales to be profitable but the parent company wanting more sales then the market would give them. Genon was making money but the parent company wants more money.

The only major Genon series i haven't bought yet is Black lagoon and Shana. For Shana i wam waiting for the box set. I hate to collected singles and them have them release a sp ed with box. For black Lagoon I was just waiting till the end year when i have am a bit clearer on expenses.

Deathkillz
2007-09-27, 14:37
The problem with assertion is that most of those people don't "forget" to buy the DVDs, but rather that they would probably never have bought them at all. That is the factor that is ignored by the industry. Every downloaded title is not a lost sale, in most cases it is a sale that probably never would have been made, anyway.

I actually think its a combination of the two - its either:

1) cheapskates who dont even bother buying the DVD of a series they like to show their support.

2) boring series being licensed - there as so many more great series that show have but isnt picked up due to their "unselling" nature...

Vexx
2007-09-27, 15:03
Sigh... topic derailed ---

offtopic:
I'd just like to know how the hell I'm supposed to make an informed choice on what DVDs to buy without having seen the broadcast series.
Answer: if I can't see the broadcast series... I'll return to my pre-fansub days of not buying much of anything (i.e. out of the market).

If they want my money without fansubs, they *need* to solve that issue, like by broadcasting subbed series to the R1 region. And no, Adult Swim, CN, don't cut it --- they don't show the gamut of what is being broadcast nor do they usually show the genres I'm interested in. This isn't taking a chance on a $20 movie I've not seen... This is me looking at plunking several hundred dollars down on a DVD series -- so I think getting the same preview that japanese consumers get is important.

On topic: so I assume from the banter that there's been no follow up announcement or any new information about the series in-progress that Geneon was producing. Ceasing production on a series in the middle is exceptionally poor form if that is what is happening (glares at ADV a bit), especially if the situation is that Geneon was profitable but not quite meeting the profit *expectations* of the parent company.

monir
2007-09-27, 15:18
Okay folks, this isn't the topic to discuss why fansub screws the industry. Let's get on topic please because I don't want to delete posts right and left.

To be on topic myself, I was really looking forward to the second season of Black Lagoon so this is kind of a bummer.

rooboy
2007-09-27, 15:47
On topic: so I assume from the banter that there's been no follow up announcement or any new information about the series in-progress that Geneon was producing. Ceasing production on a series in the middle is exceptionally poor form if that is what is happening (glares at ADV a bit), especially if the situation is that Geneon was profitable but not quite meeting the profit *expectations* of the parent company.No, there hasn't been. Apparently Animenation (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php) asked and was told that Geneon is ceasing production in November, but would not confirm rumors about any existing or soon to come series being worked on.

Vexx
2007-09-27, 16:14
bleh... I ordered all the current "Karin" DVDs today and pre-ordered the 4th one due out right at the "we fall on our sword" date Geneon mentioned.
(Somehow I'd missed Karin getting licensed amongst all the other series I purchased this year...)

Hopefully, SOMEONE will finish Karin and any other series in progress at least.
I'll hope that they're still negotiating with someone to finish up the works-in-progress.

Dentsu and its parents aren't on my "happy face" list at the moment when I look at all the Geneon titles on my shelf purchased over the years.

mdauben
2007-09-27, 16:23
To be on topic myself, I was really looking forward to the second season of Black Lagoon so this is kind of a bummer.
I was looking forward to a number, myself. I was looking forward to them finishing the relases for Rozen Maiden, Higurashi and Karin, and I was also looking forward to them starting Nanoha and Nanoha A's. :(

Calawain
2007-09-27, 17:05
I really hope someone picks these licenses up, there are some series I'd like to buy/rent that are future Geneon releases. Hopefully this will end up convincing the rest of the industry to start making serious efforts to revitalize the industry and adapt to the fansub situation.

Xellos-_^
2007-09-27, 17:08
The problem with Genon is fansubs or there current business model. It is the parent company wanting a bigger profit.

Vexx
2007-09-27, 17:14
I've watched this sort of b.s. in several industries. Parent company buys a company doing well, making a decent profit.... lets say 10% of gross.

Then parent makes demands that company do 20% of gross and then shuts them down and sells off assets when company doesn't comply in ridiculous timeframe.

Or worse, parent comes in and gums up everything that *made* company profitable and then shuts it down when it fails to meet unreasonable expectations.

Because of the game rules for corporations, businesses tend to act psychotic and even reward unsustainable behavior in return for short term gains for the decision makers.

It may be that we'll see these titles pop up in another company's portfolio because a few of the executives play golf together...... :/ and yes, it *does* get that lame.

Potatochobit
2007-09-27, 17:18
this is very sad. if ADV is given the job to finish current releases ill be upset.

truthfully, i think most hard core fansubbers are the ones buying the official releases and supporting the industry. just like in japan, the companies do not bash on the otaku community even though alot of doujin works do technically infringe on copyrights.

at the moment, the only geneon show i'm collecting is rozen maiden. the rest are bandai and funimation releases.

Geneon may continue releases though, maybe just under another name or label, or smaller operation.

honestly, i dont see what they are complaining about. the US market is probably 4 times larger than the JP market. the problem is not illegal copies floating around on the internet. the problem is they are not getting any media time on cable television. I cant think of a single geneon tv advertisement neither. and i mean over the past 6 years.

Royal_Devil
2007-09-27, 17:33
I cant think of a single geneon tv advertisement neither. and i mean over the past 6 years.

They played some during the anime block on Fuse.

cyth
2007-09-27, 18:17
This is incorrect and bad logic.At least one retailer (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1635) thinks otherwise.Video piracy was an integral part of American anime distribution decades before America even had a professional anime distribution industry. It's arguable that America wouldn't have an anime industry if not for the influence of underground anime distribution. Bootlegs and fansubs helped anime come to America in the first place. These days fansubs are tremendously influential in establishing market potential. Shows with exposure and name recognition in America's fan community have a bigger potential consumer audience than shows with no name recognition.

No. They did not "like" them. They knew fansubs help some titles, but it killed a number of titles for them too.I wasn't saying "Geneon liked fansubbers the most." Read my statement again. As for Geneon's statement, I've read that article, I know what they said.
Well, to me I think you're underestimating the "frugality" of the average leech. Sure, "hardcore" fans will always buy the DVD collector's edition boxsets that come with a free Haruhi blow-up doll, but that's not the average user.That's why I mentioned hardcore fans and not leechers. Believe me, I'm the last person to blur the line between leechers and hardcore fans. It does happen a lot these days, I don't blame you for thinking I'm one of Them.

Thinker
2007-09-27, 22:25
I've watched this sort of b.s. in several industries. Parent company buys a company doing well, making a decent profit.... lets say 10% of gross.

Then parent makes demands that company do 20% of gross and then shuts them down and sells off assets when company doesn't comply in ridiculous timeframe.

Or worse, parent comes in and gums up everything that *made* company profitable and then shuts it down when it fails to meet unreasonable expectations.

Because of the game rules for corporations, businesses tend to act psychotic and even reward unsustainable behavior in return for short term gains for the decision makers.

It may be that we'll see these titles pop up in another company's portfolio because a few of the executives play golf together...... :/ and yes, it *does* get that lame.

Quite possible, because the same thing happened to one of my former employers during the dot.com boom. :)

DragoonKain3
2007-09-27, 22:30
I personally think that anyone is fine with me, as long as they finish the series I want. As big as a fan of dubs on a DVD as I am, even I'll settle for a sub only release if it means Higurashi will be finished. Only that title though, as I want dubs for titles I'm less passionate about, which in this case is Karin since its the only title I care about (though not gaga over like Higurashi) thats not finished.

I'm the type of person who wants to know what he's getting into, and if I don't I'd rather not be involved with it at all. It's not just with anime, it's with almost everything. I don't do Magic pre-releases unless the entire list has been spoiled. If not I don't go. While I do buy every RPG I can find, I MUST make sure first that it isn't an action RPG AND you have a party to use. If not, I won't buy it. And movies? I usually don't even bother, unless I happen to want to hang out with my friends in which case I go because its a social thing rather than because I want to see the movie.

And this applies to R1 DVDs as well. If I don't know I actually like the series beforehand, I wouldn't buy it at all. And considering that the genres I do enjoy isn't covered by North American broadcasts, if fansubs didn't exist, I wouldn't be buying ANY anime at all. Period. And that's just fine and dandy with me, as I have several other hobbies I can spend my time and money on if somehow fansubs became extinct.

Green²
2007-09-28, 00:59
No, there hasn't been. Apparently Animenation (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php) asked and was told that Geneon is ceasing production in November, but would not confirm rumors about any existing or soon to come series being worked on.
From the provided link (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php):
"AnimeNation has directly confirmed with a Geneon representative that the continuing release of all of Geneon USA's presently ongoing titles, including When They Cry, Karin, Kyou Kara Maou, Law of Ueki, Shonen Onmyouji, Hellsing Ultimate, Story of Saiunkoku, Black Lagoon, and planned future releases including Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, Guardian of the Sacred Spirit, Familiar of Zero, Rozen Maiden Traumend, and the Shakugan no Shana OVA will cease in November. While countless fans desperately hope that some or all of these titles, along with many or all of Geneon's catalog titles, will be "license rescued" or otherwise acquired by other American distributors, the Geneon USA spokesman that we spoke with could not discuss (or confirm) that possibility. So all that's known for certain right now is that Geneon's entire anime catalog is going out of print in America within the next two months, and there is no certainty that any of these titles will be continued or re-released in America in the future. One additional certainty is that if presently in medias res titles are eventually acquired for continuation or re-release in America by different distributors, fans of these shows will face a significant delay between current releases and any future releases or conclusions from new distributors."

---

Fan, meet Shit. Shit, meet Fan.

Overall it seems, meaning of the above affected animation titles, that either someone else will have to pick up from where Geneon left off at, ...or they remain uncompleted. And the main problem for all of those titles, being time itself, should you be hoping for a consistent dub. And we all don't want the female cast to be played by Crispin Freeman choked up on Midol.

Vexx
2007-09-28, 02:26
It makes it really damn hard for me to listen to anti-fansub arguments with this kind of amateurish "professional" handling of products going on.

I'm going to *hope* that negotiations for titles in progress at least are occurring but if they leave titles in limbo that were in progress --- it drives the consumer to consider NOT PURCHASING a series until it is entirely on the market. Great consumer training.... eh.

Of course, we repeatedly see 'stupid-head' business moves by this industry ....
marginally related: hey, MFI, I'm still waiting for a group of titles you slammed the community to stop subbing but you're just sitting on them to keep your butt warm apparently :P

EvaForever
2007-09-28, 10:37
What about all the soundtracks that Geneon has released?

Kyuusai
2007-09-28, 11:25
What about all the soundtracks that Geneon has released?

Since it said that all "related distribution and marketing operations", I'd assume that covers soundtrack CDs.

My gut leads me to believe that the smaller market for CDs means less likelyhood of re(sub?)-licensing.

Risaa
2007-09-28, 20:22
I just found out today. o_o (Sorry, the news came during a busy time for me ;_; )

Although I stick to Japanese manga, when it comes to anime, it's just better for me to buy the R1 released versions due to the cheaper price and that I'm getting pretty much the same thing anyways. So yeah, this news makes me pretty bummed too. :/

Because of its popularity, it came as a total shock to me that Geneon is being stopped. I've read the article and frankly, I think Dentsu is making themselves sound like asses to NA fans. :heh: "We're making profit, but we'd rather spend money elsewhere that doesn't involve you and make even MORE money for ourselves!" (I use a Mac, so I hear that all the time. :heh: )

Yeah yeah, I know. It's a business and they're there to make money. There IS such a thing as making customers happy, though, and that often works out well for both parties. :/

relentlessflame
2007-09-29, 00:45
Incidentally, for people who missed the posts in the Nanoha licensing thread, you'll probably be interested to know that production work on Nanoha and Zero no Tsukaima is continuing (http://avatar.mee.nu/good_news_cont.). It was also mentioned (http://www.animeondvd.com/forum/showpost.php?post/540529/) (over on AoD) that Geneon-related dub projects in LA were continuing. So even though Geneon won't be keeping inventory, selling to retailers, doing marketing material, and all that, it seems they're still actively working on anime projects. Some reassurance for those worried about the status of licenses current and announced.

Royal_Devil
2007-09-29, 11:36
Incidentally, for people who missed the posts in the Nanoha licensing thread, you'll probably be interested to know that production work on Nanoha and Zero no Tsukaima is continuing (http://avatar.mee.nu/good_news_cont.). It was also mentioned (http://www.animeondvd.com/forum/showpost.php?post/540529/) (over on AoD) that Geneon-related dub projects in LA were continuing. So even though Geneon won't be keeping inventory, selling to retailers, doing marketing material, and all that, it seems they're still actively working on anime projects. Some reassurance for those worried about the status of licenses current and announced.

Well I guess that's good for Helling. But Black Lagoon's a Canadian dub :(

relentlessflame
2007-09-29, 11:47
Well I guess that's good for Helling. But Black Lagoon's a Canadian dub :(Well, I think the idea here is that, in general, productions seem to be on-going and haven't been cancelled in light of the downsizing. We have to wait and see, obviouly, but I'd guess that Black Lagoon's continuing as well.

ZippyDSM
2007-09-29, 19:36
Vexx
It happens alot more in gaming when a pub or group buys out a dev and then it starts to gut and rework it for what? they lose the talent and profitability of the dev and then they wonder why they have to close it.

I have seen a few Geneon DVDs Kara kyo maoh was ok Saiyuki was bad, I have a feelign they will be gutting qaulity to make the localizations "more hip" and look to sale better in the eyes of the all knowing suits or some BS, uhg this cant be good unless they are goign to down size a bit a run a translation focused operation and drop the localizing BS but I doubt, it sounds to me they are reinventing/reorganizing or scrapping geneon....

nhat
2007-09-29, 20:51
The problem with Genon is fansubs or there current business model. It is the parent company wanting a bigger profit.


I've watched this sort of b.s. in several industries. Parent company buys a company doing well, making a decent profit.... lets say 10% of gross.

Then parent makes demands that company do 20% of gross and then shuts them down and sells off assets when company doesn't comply in ridiculous timeframe.

Or worse, parent comes in and gums up everything that *made* company profitable and then shuts it down when it fails to meet unreasonable expectations.

Because of the game rules for corporations, businesses tend to act psychotic and even reward unsustainable behavior in return for short term gains for the decision makers.

It may be that we'll see these titles pop up in another company's portfolio because a few of the executives play golf together...... :/ and yes, it *does* get that lame.


When the company is in the red and isn't making profit, I don't think any parent company will want their child. A company can't survive without some profit and without profit they can't produce more products for consumers.

Xellos-_^
2007-09-29, 21:47
When the company is in the red and isn't making profit, I don't think any parent company will want their child. A company can't survive without some profit and without profit they can't produce more products for consumers.

form what was reported genon is making a profit. Not a huge profit but they were making thier targeted goals for the fiscal year but the parent wanted Bigger profits.

Chiibi
2007-09-29, 22:30
Geneon's dubs suck ass eight out of ten times so I don't really care. :P I am collecting a lot of series by them but I'm sure other companies will pick 'em up and I'm in no hurry. ^^

this is very sad. if ADV is given the job to finish current releases ill be upset.
ADV IS AWESOME. You should be happy if that happens. :P

ZippyDSM
2007-09-30, 01:46
Geneon's dubs suck ass eight out of ten times so I don't really care. :P I am collecting a lot of series by them but I'm sure other companies will pick 'em up and I'm in no hurry. ^^


ADV IS AWESOME. You should be happy if that happens. :P

ADV is no worse than funimation half the shows are ok the other half bad.

guest
2007-09-30, 08:59
From animenewsnetwork.com:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-09-29/dentsu-to-post-y5-billion-loss-on-geneon's-downsizing (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-09-29/dentsu-to-post-y5-billion-loss-on-geneon%27s-downsizing)

The Japanese advertising firm Dentsu Inc. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=249) announced (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/press-release/2007-09-27/dentsu-posts-extraordinary-income-and-extraordinary-losses-etc) on September 27 that it will post a 4.7-billion-yen (US$41 million) loss on a consolidated basis and 5.1-billion-yen (about US$44 million) loss on a non-consolidated basis due to the downsizing of its Geneon Entertainment (USA) Inc. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1782) anime subsidiary's "scope of business." It will also post a 7.2-billion-yen (US$63 million) loss on its withdrawal from D&T, a joint sales partnership between Dentsu and Tohokushinsha Film Corporation (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1520) for broadcasting rights in Japan to foreign movies and television programs. Both losses will be reflected in the financial results for the first half of the fiscal year ending March 31, 2008. Thanks, Blackwing.

I don't understand this. If the parent company is losing money when they let go of Geneon, why did they do this in the first place?

btw, why isn't the link working? For now, just copy and paste if you want to see it.

darksider
2007-09-30, 10:46
I don't understand this. If the parent company is losing money when they let go of Geneon, why did they do this in the first place?

I'd say that no one actually understands Dentsu, 'the faceless organization of Japan'.

LynnieS
2007-09-30, 11:32
I don't understand this. If the parent company is losing money when they let go of Geneon, why did they do this in the first place?I'd say that no one actually understands Dentsu, 'the faceless organization of Japan'. It could be that they are forecasting either (1) even bigger losses if they keep Geneon (and the partnership perhaps), (2) lower or same losses - but for a longer period, or (3) something else that they don't want - or can't - say in a press release.

Kyuusai
2007-09-30, 14:00
I'd say that no one actually understands Dentsu, 'the faceless organization of Japan'.

It could be that they are forecasting either (1) even bigger losses if they keep Geneon (and the partnership perhaps), (2) lower or same losses - but for a longer period, or (3) something else that they don't want - or can't - say in a press release.

Correct, and correct.

There is also the fact that larger corporations often feel that subsidiaries or ventures that are only mildly profitable are dead weight. They require time and money to manage and are a continued risk if they carry any financial obligations.

My gut feeling, though, is that Geneon was simply not profitable enough to overcome the effects of some personal satisfaction their Dentsu management had or the plans some one at Dentsu had to take the company in the direction it's headed now (as strictly a licensing house).

Xellos-_^
2007-09-30, 14:08
After thinking about it a bit.

i think a consolidation of the anime market is actually good for the overall market. The current anime market in NA is a very small pie and yet we have like 6-7 companies each having a slice of it. Now that there less companies. Other anime companies could get a bigger piece of this small pie. This allows the remaining the companies to shore up thier finance and maybe get some more investment if they show good profiblity. This could be better on a long term base for the NA anime market.

the loser of course would fans of niche shows like kamichu. The remaining companies would probably stay away form these shows unless they get the license really cheap.

ZippyDSM
2007-09-30, 15:16
After thinking about it a bit.

i think a consolidation of the anime market is actually good for the overall market. The current anime market in NA is a very small pir and yet we have like 6-7 companies each having a slice of it. Now that there less companies. Other anime companies could get a bigger piece of this small pie. This allows the remaining the companies to shore up thier finance and maybe get some more investment if they show good profiblity. This could be better on a long term base for the NA anime market.

the loser of course would fans of niche shows like kamichu. The remaining companies would probably stay away form these shows unless they get the license really cheap.

A more stable Localizing industry would simulate voice actor growth and allow vesirtile releases and well as high quality the only trouble is the bigger companies would not want to join anything.

Xellos-_^
2007-09-30, 18:30
another bad thing from losing Genon is no more 25/$100 on genon dvds anymore.

good thing i pick gungrave the last time rightstuf had 25/100 sale.

Vexx
2007-09-30, 20:40
From animenewsnetwork.com:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-09-29/dentsu-to-post-y5-billion-loss-on-geneon's-downsizing (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-09-29/dentsu-to-post-y5-billion-loss-on-geneon%27s-downsizing)

The Japanese advertising firm Dentsu Inc. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=249) announced (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/press-release/2007-09-27/dentsu-posts-extraordinary-income-and-extraordinary-losses-etc) on September 27 that it will post a 4.7-billion-yen (US$41 million) loss on a consolidated basis and 5.1-billion-yen (about US$44 million) loss on a non-consolidated basis due to the downsizing of its Geneon Entertainment (USA) Inc. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1782) anime subsidiary's "scope of business." It will also post a 7.2-billion-yen (US$63 million) loss on its withdrawal from D&T, a joint sales partnership between Dentsu and Tohokushinsha Film Corporation (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1520) for broadcasting rights in Japan to foreign movies and television programs. Both losses will be reflected in the financial results for the first half of the fiscal year ending March 31, 2008. Thanks, Blackwing.

I don't understand this. If the parent company is losing money when they let go of Geneon, why did they do this in the first place?

btw, why isn't the link working? For now, just copy and paste if you want to see it.

Usually when you see a company do this there's some amazing tax writeoff that makes it all worthwhile ... or that all the pain comes in one quarter.

Prince of Chronics
2007-10-09, 21:26
I've been so out of the loop regarding the whole R1 scene that I totally overlooked this news... I'm kinda disappointed now that I will have to wait even longer to officially own all of Black Lagoon =/

These fansubs I have on my drives are great.. but nothing beats actually having the real deal ... damn..

Royal_Devil
2007-10-09, 22:01
Letter from Geneon USA CEO to fans (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-10-06/geneon-usa-president-and-ceo-sends-message-to-fans/2)

Basically most of what we've been hearing

FatPianoBoy
2007-10-16, 18:59
I just got a RightStuf catalog in the mail and it has When They Cry volume 5 slated for 12/4 and volume 6 for 2/5. Should I be 'zomg :3'ing right now or does RightStuf not read the internets?

Draneor
2007-10-16, 19:06
Most likely, RightStuf printed or designed the catalogue a couple months in advance. Usually, publications of that nature take a while to go from concept to print. They may not have had time to make any corrections.

RightStuf has indicated on their website that they do not expect to be able to fill those Geneon pre-orders. However, Geneon is still looking into possibilities so we may get them at some point

Genjo
2007-11-14, 19:09
ICv2 reports that Navarre CEO Kerry Deacon's stockholder conference call yesterday cited Geneon USA's withdrawl from domestic anime distribution as a potential advantage for FUNimation's sales and content acquisition." Deacon specifically referred to former Geneon anime titles Sailor Moon, Hellsing, and Black Lagoon as "very strong content" with an uncertain future.

http://www.animenation.net/news/index.php?id=11799

it seems FUNimation might get there hands on Geneon Licensed Anime.

Xellos-_^
2007-11-14, 19:16
Nothing new. Most people here and elsewhere predicted that most Genon Titles will get bought by other companies. Just a matter of who gets what.

I am predicting ADV gets Nanoha

MB will go after some of the older titles like CCS and release a very cheap set of it.

bayoab
2007-11-14, 20:14
MB will go after some of the older titles like CCS and release a very cheap set of it.
That is not happening. The license to CCS expired almost a year ago after Geneon released the cheap set.

Avatar_notADV
2007-11-14, 20:51
If ADV was getting Nanoha, having me work on the subtitles would be unlikely. They have their own staff for that (and some equipment I really miss! ;_; )

Diaboso
2007-11-14, 20:53
awww on of my fav company's

Xellos-_^
2007-11-14, 21:13
If ADV was getting Nanoha, having me work on the subtitles would be unlikely. They have their own staff for that (and some equipment I really miss! ;_; )

I just hope it is not Bandai.

They are expensive without the Extras. At least Funi while expensive comes with extras that are worth it.

Malintex_Terek
2007-11-15, 01:02
it seems FUNimation might get there hands on Geneon Licensed Anime.

I'm a Navarre stockholder - I'm not sure if this info was reflected in the AN report, but Navarre's stock tanked a couple days ago (-40%!), reflecting a decrease in production and distribution capacity. Wall Street was surprised, and certainly, the prospects for the company in the future are starting to look grim. Most of the analytical networks I subscribe to believe Navarre is in its death throes right now - heck, even MF gave it the "thumbs down" rating, which they never gave to 4Kids even before its recent "rebound". That's including a full year of stagnation, six consecutive quarter losses and an uncertain future.

Meaning, it's far more likely Navarre bankrupts and takes FUNimation down with it, since as a wholly owned asset their properties and whatnot are liable to creditors. Which sucks royally if FUNimation intends to pick at Geneon's bones.

Then again, the anime industry is leaking oil right now - anime isn't as profitable as it was between 2002 ~ 2005 because of rising licensing fees, inflation and the weakening dollar. Companies are slow to release titles and quick to jump on them, the licensing fees of which become sunk (which is prolly what killed Geneon). There's a lack of interest in the market since the biggest property, Naruto, is but a shadow of Pokemon and DBZ in the past.

In sum, it's a sour time for the anime industry and I don't think there are media companies around who would be interested in bailing out Funi. Frankly, if FUNimation falls the American anime industry could start to erode.

Which means fansubbers would win the war, but that's a mixed blessing. Same thing with Navarre...I don't want to lost my money. >_>

Mad Dog
2007-11-17, 11:35
http://www.animenation.net/news/index.php?id=11799

it seems FUNimation might get there hands on Geneon Licensed Anime.

I hate to be the barrier of bad news for Funimation fas but Funimation and ADV Films had already DECLINED to help Geneon distribute any of their titles. this happened before Geneon went belly up.

Now Geneon still OWNS the licenses to all the animes they had and are just looking for another company to distribute them on DVD. Media Blasters, Viz, and Bandai have expressed interest in helping with this.

Plus there have been a few people harassing Funimation on their forums saying that if they continue with the production of Negima!? they would boycott Funimation and Navarre. Seems to be working too.

Xellos-_^
2007-11-17, 13:30
I hate to be the barrier of bad news for Funimation fas but Funimation and ADV Films had already DECLINED to help Geneon distribute any of their titles. this happened before Geneon went belly up.

Now Geneon still OWNS the licenses to all the animes they had and are just looking for another company to distribute them on DVD. Media Blasters, Viz, and Bandai have expressed interest in helping with this.



That really doesn't mean anything. Just becuase ADV and Funi couldn't reach a deal with Genon before they went belly up doesn't they couldn't reach a deal in the future. Or instead just buy the license of some of the titles they want.

guest
2007-11-17, 13:51
Which means fansubbers would win the war, but that's a mixed blessing. Same thing with Navarre...I don't want to lost my money. >_>
Or the Japanese copy right holders would start to take real and harsh actions against fansub because they blame fansub to be the cause of all these.

Which means fanusb would lose in the war.

Xellos-_^
2007-11-17, 13:57
Or the Japanese copy right holders would start to take real and harsh actions against fansub because they blame fansub to be the cause of all these.

Which means fanusb would lose in the war.

That would be a double KO as a anime fans in the west could leave the anime fandom altogether or at leave the fandom with too few fans who can support the industry and the rest of the anime companies will go bellyup and the Japanese companies will be left without a western market.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-11-17, 14:19
Which means fansubbers would win the war, but that's a mixed blessing. Same thing with Navarre...I don't want to lost my money. >_>

Sell, sell, sell! By pancakes.

Malintex_Terek
2007-11-17, 16:23
Or the Japanese copy right holders would start to take real and harsh actions against fansub because they blame fansub to be the cause of all these.


And what are they going to do? Attacking difficult-to-track internet users in other countries who can easily mask their identities further is a matter of "finding a needle in a haystack". The anime companies will have to expend tons of money for overseas legal representation, and whenever they actually bag someone, assuming they win, the suit damages wouldn't even come close to the potential profits of an actual license.

The anime companies have some jaw, but it'll be easily broken by the legion. They're just trying well to hold face and feign real legal strength.

There's only ONE TRUE WAY to kill fansubbers, and that's to have:

1. Transaction/transportation costs so low people are indifferent between pirating and paying, as in the case of iTunes.
2. Extremely tight, powerful monitoring mechanisms for finding and prosecuting pirating offenders.

The RIAA is approaching this ideal, but it hasn't gripped strongly on #2 yet. Taking down Oink was a big blow to the stomach though.

The anime companies are in this tight spot with overseas companies suffocating because they raised their licensing fees out of simple greed while not taking into account stagnation in other countries. That's it.

Kamui4356
2007-11-17, 18:04
I wouldn't be suprised to learn that the weakening dollar is having a much bigger role in the current problems in the american anime business than we realize. I was watching the news the other day about the problems it was causing for Canadian studios, where a number of american TV series and movies were filmed because it was cheaper when the US dollar was stronger. Now it's getting to be more expensive to film in Canada than the US. The same thing could very well be happening when it comes to license fees for anime.

Since the anime industry generally operates on thin profit margins to begin with, the weakening dollar is probably cutting into their profits a lot. Really I should have realized that would have an effect, but I never even thought of it until Malintex_Terek mentioned it. :heh:

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-11-17, 18:19
The U.S. economy will collapse on its self. $9,116,228,962,974. 20 in debt ftw..

Solace
2007-11-17, 22:02
The U.S. economy will collapse on its self. $9,116,228,962,974. 20 in debt ftw..

The U.S. economy is certainly in a bad spot but collapsing? Doubtful. You'd be surprised how many countries are in a far worse spot than the U.S. is, market and debt wise. The weakening dollar certainly has the biggest impact on the import/export trades. Expect a reverse of the 80's and 90's where foreign goods where more attractive to consumers because the high dollar made American products more expensive in comparison. This will spur spending domestically as the infrastructure that previously relied on imported goods will need to rebuild to handle the increased demand. Yay for cycles.

It's a crappy time, sure. The world isn't ending but if it is you damn well better believe that if the American economy tanks the world will go down with it. If there's a second Great Depression, it will be unthinkably worse than the first because the American economy outstrips the rest of the worlds by a significant margin.

Expect major action from the government and foreign markets if there's any sign of something that significant.

Which means fansubbers would win the war, but that's a mixed blessing. Same thing with Navarre...I don't want to lost my money. >_>

This irks me. There isn't a war, except in perception. It's not an us versus them problem. It's a matter of greed. Licensing costs too high and overestimated demand for product is what is causing the problems you see now. Many people saw this coming. The last few seasons have completely saturated what is a comparatively small market. Something had to give.

minhtam1638
2007-11-17, 22:09
I hate to be the barrier of bad news for Funimation fas but Funimation and ADV Films had already DECLINED to help Geneon distribute any of their titles. this happened before Geneon went belly up.

Now Geneon still OWNS the licenses to all the animes they had and are just looking for another company to distribute them on DVD. Media Blasters, Viz, and Bandai have expressed interest in helping with this.

Plus there have been a few people harassing Funimation on their forums saying that if they continue with the production of Negima!? they would boycott Funimation and Navarre. Seems to be working too.

Well, I can say this. NOT Viz, NOT Bandai. The titles that Geneon owns do not fit the bill for either one.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-11-17, 22:14
Solace, I do know that it probably won't in the near future but at the current rates within a century if it hasn't collapsed, it will be very close. And yes when it does, so will many, many nations around the world. It is a bad thing that is only getting worse.

But yeah I know it will not probably collapse in our lifetimes.(Unless by the time we are that old medicine has advanced so much we could live decades past one hundred)

Itsuki Midoriba
2007-11-18, 01:24
Geneon's withdrawal from the distribution and production of anime was actually, IMO, a rather drastic move. This can actually be due to a few factors. I would believe that when the mail on the 1st post was released, the greenback (US$) was ALREADY falling against the yen (Japanese Yen/JPY) and the parent company, Dentsu Inc, is probably trying to stem losses of the Geneon USA division. And to add to the situation is tha the market, was not like in years ago. At that time, the Asian economy was just getting back to pre-Asian Financial Crisis state, and the currencies of the Asian nations were relatively weak. It made the products from Asia seem relatively cheap, compared to the strong US$. Especailly Japanese stuff, where the yen was weak. So the anime industry flourished, because Amercian otakus had "more" cash on hand.

Years later, the US$ has weakened sharply. When I first visited US, the exchange rate was at 115.20 yen to US$1, in Dec 1998. Now, it's 111.05 yen to US$1.

Ironically, "Dentsu Inc. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=249) announced (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/press-release/2007-09-27/dentsu-posts-extraordinary-income-and-extraordinary-losses-etc) on September 27 that it will post a 4.7-billion-yen (US$41 million) loss on a consolidated basis and 5.1-billion-yen (about US$44 million) loss on a non-consolidated basis due to the downsizing of its Geneon Entertainment (USA) Inc. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1782) anime subsidiary's "scope of business." "

(Anime News Network: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-09-29/dentsu-to-post-y5-billion-loss-on-geneon's-downsizing)

This, however, may be less than the losses it may incur due to a shrinking US$. Similarily, the British pound is also shrinking. (Then again, it's rising against the US$ - who's not?) That means, the British otakus have more cash than their Amercian counterparts to get more anime translated into English. But to purchase goods direct from Japan, it will cost more.

So I forsee that the next big market may well be from within Asia. I think South Korea is one. (But it has its own anime industry - or does it?)

Vexx
2007-11-18, 01:43
The thing is, Geneon was profitable... it just wasn't profitable *enough* for Dentsu's liking (one of the insanities of "maximum greed" in some corporate decision-making). The other factors you mention certainly drove the cart into the wall though :)

Potatochobit
2007-11-18, 01:54
The anime industry is not going to disappear. it may shrink a whole lot, and may even go to direct marketing type venues, but it will always be around.

personally, i think that is a good thing. crazy licensing fees have to stop.

Is geneon still owned by Pioneer? honestly, I have not seen any pioneer electronics or goods for quite a while. Don't really know if that has anything to do with this.

Outside of America and Japan, i'm not sure if you can call any other area a 'big market'

I'm not sure how well anime sells in the UK, but I do know that otaku-ish people are frowned upon far more than they would be in NA.

Malintex_Terek
2007-11-18, 03:16
The thing is, Geneon was profitable... it just wasn't profitable *enough* for Dentsu's liking (one of the insanities of "maximum greed" in some corporate decision-making). The other factors you mention certainly drove the cart into the wall though :)

"massive greed" only applies to the Japanese anime companies in my analysis, since those companies over-inflate their revenue frontiers by taking into account off-shores licensing. But, only the "big name" companies do this, or the ones who *think* they're hot stuff (Studio DEEN) from which we see the actual C&Ds from. Lesser known studios don't even have a hope of an off-shore license, they're short on everything from international recognition to original writing. The best they can hope for is a fair number of DVD sales and TV ratings to recoup their investment costs - after-all, if there wasn't a significantly lucrative return in the anime business, no one would enter the market in the first place.

Geneon was different. It was still operating even though it was likely earning negative profits for a long time (which was obvious to anyone who kept up with their production schedule) since doing so would allow it to lessen the burden of its sunk costs as long as possible. And who knew? There could have been a lighting-strike and Geneon's profitability could have shocked up (like, one or more of its big titles got licensed for airing on [adult swim] or Toonami).

bayoab
2007-11-18, 03:34
I would believe that when the mail on the 1st post was released, the greenback (US$) was ALREADY falling against the yen (Japanese Yen/JPY) and the parent company, Dentsu Inc, is probably trying to stem losses of the Geneon USA division.

Years later, the US$ has weakened sharply. When I first visited US, the exchange rate was at 115.20 yen to US$1, in Dec 1998. Now, it's 111.05 yen to US$1.
The Yen vs USD rate fluctuates up and down a lot. It has hit 110 and 125 multiple times in those 10 years. It has not been a continuous down period like the USD vs CAD. In fact, it was still at 115 2 weeks ago and it was still at that same 115 when this was announced. This has almost nothing to do with the currency exchange.

Vexx
2007-11-18, 05:19
aye... the yen and the dollar dance remarkably consistently.

105-125 range yen/dollar is almost noise level variation ... especially compared with, say, the Canadian dollar which has been 1$ CAN = ~75cents US for as far back as I've ever paid attention ... and now its nearly $1CAN=$1US.

Siegel Clyne
2007-11-18, 22:26
Media Blasters Current Events and Discussion - AnimeOnDVD.com - Powered by FusionBB (http://www.animeondvd.com/forum/showpost.php?post/568573/)

Originally posted by Media Blasters President John Sirabella on 11-09-07 03:56 PM

The prices for anime in Japan has stabilized and this is good but the retailers in the USA have not. Unless the retailers stabilize, the prices in Japan mean really nothing.

Also you have to look at a company by company and see which company have finished with their packs and re-masters. The company who has finished them will need to license more or fade away.

I believe more than likely it will be close to the same as this year, fairly silent at AnimeExpo again. The years of the many pr releases of new titles at expo will be a thing of the past and companies will focus more on less shows.

I have been surprised at how low licensors have gone recently in pricing...much lower than I expected which means little competition.

Ranko
2007-11-20, 21:26
The thing is, Geneon was profitable... it just wasn't profitable *enough* for Dentsu's liking (one of the insanities of "maximum greed" in some corporate decision-making). The other factors you mention certainly drove the cart into the wall though :)



This happens all the time, i wonder why geneon didn't just spin off it's inhouse production into a new company that could then take other projects on.

Malintex_Terek
2007-11-21, 00:17
This happens all the time, i wonder why geneon didn't just spin off it's inhouse production into a new company that could then take other projects on.

Geneon didn't have an in-house production studio. They're just the publishers, the people who make the shiny packages and ship them off to retail stores or make sure they get to people online.

While Bang Zoom! Entertainment is an economy post-production studio, it's still a more expensive venture than in-house dubbing. The problem is, there are large start-up costs to in-house dubbing in the short term, so even if running the in-housing dubbing becomes cheaper in the long run, if one doesn't survive to the long run it' an unworthy investment.

Geneon also claimed interest in the manga business, which should strike anyone as cheaper than the anime DVD market - Geneon's argument for not going in was, "it's too expensive". Considering they'd have to aquire low cost paper, printing presses, get in good with bookstores...it makes a lot of sense that they'd not go in, especially without a guaranteed marriage to a large Japanese publisher like Del Rey + VIZ MEDIA do.

That was actually Geneon's sole advantage in the American markets, really - they (presumably) had first bidding rights to anything sponsored by Geneon Japan and, I'm inferring, some of Dentsu. For the most part, nearly all titles sponsored by Geneon J were "wait-listed" to be tackled by Geneon USA, with a couple exceptions being material connected to other publishing co's (Kodansha related material which was snapped by FUNimation, namelySchool Rumble). Why titles, namely, Nanoha got on this wait-list is up for debate, but I think it's because Geneon's investors would get more return licensing to Geneon than another company since they would probably extract a percentage of Geneon's profits.

bayoab
2007-11-21, 00:32
That was actually Geneon's sole advantage in the American markets, really - they (presumably) had first bidding rights to anything sponsored by Geneon Japan and, I'm inferring, some of Dentsu.
Mostly Geneon JP (Rondo Robe) titles and my understanding is that it wasn't first bid. It was low bid: If they bid above a certain minimum, they automatically got the title if the title wasn't able to reach a high enough price point to an outside bidder.

Also, Dentsu is an advertising firm and invested in many titles, even non-Geneon ones. I never heard anything to suggest Geneon got any advantage on these titles.

For the most part, nearly all titles sponsored by Geneon J were "wait-listed" to be tackled by Geneon USA, with a couple exceptions being material connected to other publishing co's (Kodansha related material which was snapped by FUNimation, namelySchool Rumble).
Geneon JP and Dentsu both had absolutely nothing to do with School Rumble.

Malintex_Terek
2007-11-21, 01:10
Mostly Geneon JP (Rondo Robe) titles and my understanding is that it wasn't first bid. It was low bid: If they bid above a certain minimum, they automatically got the title if the title wasn't able to reach a high enough price point to an outside bidder.


My impression is that if there is a low bid now, it wasn't always the case; there are at least two high-potential titles (or seemingly so), Rozen Maiden and the Nanoha OVAs, of modest episode count, which didn't get licensed until many years after they originally aired. This strikes me as rather odd - while it could the case such titles were more expensive in 2004, anime companies were also enjoying growth during that period as well. Elfen Lied getting licensed while Nanoha and RM getting left alone despite comparable popularity across the pond doesn't seem to make much sense to me.


Also, Dentsu is an advertising firm and invested in many titles, even non-Geneon ones. I never heard anything to suggest Geneon got any advantage on these titles.


Thanks for the clarification, here I was thinking they were a toy or holding company.


Geneon JP and Dentsu both had absolutely nothing to do with School Rumble.


I'm probably confusing Bandai/Geneon as licensors here.

Avatar_notADV
2007-11-21, 02:20
My impression is that if there is a low bid now, it wasn't always the case; there are at least two high-potential titles (or seemingly so), Rozen Maiden and the Nanoha OVAs, of modest episode count, which didn't get licensed until many years after they originally aired. This strikes me as rather odd - while it could the case such titles were more expensive in 2004, anime companies were also enjoying growth during that period as well. Elfen Lied getting licensed while Nanoha and RM getting left alone despite comparable popularity across the pond doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

Nanoha is -rori-.

Seriously, I mean, I've been in the business for more years that I like to think about. I -like- Nanoha. I'm WORKING on Nanoha. But that transformation sequence, I can't even watch it - it's just too friggin' much.

On top of that, it's a magical girl show, and honestly, magical girl shows have been doing pretty lousy on the market. "This is a show about a little girl who gets magical powers" is a kiss of death, talking to retail buyers. Sure, you and I both know that Nanoha ends up more like Gundam than Wedding Peach, but good luck convincing the guys at Best Buy of that! (Not to mention the first volume, which is considerably shy on the beam spam.)

At the same time, Nanoha was becoming quite popular in Japan, which tends to lead the Japanese licensors to demand more for the show in the US. Shows that are popular in Japan, but likely to be very small niche titles in the US, tend to sit around for a while - think Kanon or Gundam.

Kamui4356
2007-11-21, 03:42
Nanoha is -rori-.

Seriously, I mean, I've been in the business for more years that I like to think about. I -like- Nanoha. I'm WORKING on Nanoha. But that transformation sequence, I can't even watch it - it's just too friggin' much.

On top of that, it's a magical girl show, and honestly, magical girl shows have been doing pretty lousy on the market. "This is a show about a little girl who gets magical powers" is a kiss of death, talking to retail buyers. Sure, you and I both know that Nanoha ends up more like Gundam than Wedding Peach, but good luck convincing the guys at Best Buy of that! (Not to mention the first volume, which is considerably shy on the beam spam.)

At the same time, Nanoha was becoming quite popular in Japan, which tends to lead the Japanese licensors to demand more for the show in the US. Shows that are popular in Japan, but likely to be very small niche titles in the US, tend to sit around for a while - think Kanon or Gundam.

Even without all this stuff involving Geneon, I was worried about how well Nanoha would do for those exact reasons. I was glad to see it brought over, and if geneon does manage to get it out somehow I'll be buying it, but it just doesn't seem to be a show that American fans in general would like based on a first impression they'd get.

Sure once Fate shows up and the series starts to develop the story a lot of people would find Nanoha not at all what they were expecting. However, getting them to watch the series in the first place, let alone sit though the Fate-less first few episodes would be quite a challenge for the marketing people.

Malintex_Terek
2007-11-21, 04:53
Disclaimer:

<-has never seen, nor wants to see Nanoha.


On top of that, it's a magical girl show, and honestly, magical girl shows have been doing pretty lousy on the market. "This is a show about a little girl who gets magical powers" is a kiss of death, talking to retail buyers. Sure, you and I both know that Nanoha ends up more like Gundam than Wedding Peach, but good luck convincing the guys at Best Buy of that! (Not to mention the first volume, which is considerably shy on the beam spam.)


Can't say I know much about the state of magical girl shows, except that Winx and TMM were quite popular on 4Kids.tv, Sakura sold a lot of sub-only DVDs (undoubtedly surprising Nelvanna) and SM is still considered a "major property" by a certain company. That's enough, at least, for me to think magical girl titles in the ELC don't suffer the same stigma super robot shows do.

That said, what non-online retailer would take Nanoha anyway? I was under the impression DVD sales were done most cheaply online, and that a lion's share of them in recent times are being electronically handled. To take a sem-appropriate recent example, many many of Haruhi's DVDs direct from Bandai, when not sold at those silly BANDAI ENTERTAINMENT kisoks, went through online transactions.


At the same time, Nanoha was becoming quite popular in Japan, which tends to lead the Japanese licensors to demand more for the show in the US. Shows that are popular in Japan, but likely to be very small niche titles in the US, tend to sit around for a while - think Kanon or Gundam.

I'm aware of that tendancy, but there's two reasons I pointed out that Nanoha is non unique for getting excluded from a 2004 license.

1. Anime industry was much healthier than now; sales were robust, interest was high, tastes were diverse.
2. Companies tended to have more money on hand. I'm saying this from the number of licenses and looking at the value my stock would have had if I had owned it back then.

Look at Elfen Lied, which (apparently) had some lolicon innuendo as well - the show was graphic and shocking, and recieved a prompt license. Like Nanoha, and RM, it resonated with fans, albeit a lot more strongly.

For your recent examples, Kanon 2002 and Air have been ignored because "companies didn't think fans were into that kind of stuff". Since Haruhi moe turned into big business, hence, the licensing of Kanon 2006 (fairly rapid license really), Air and most likely Clannad in the future.

Gundam...if you mean Gundam00, Bandai's got its hands full right now with Geass and Haruhi and Lucky Star - it's got a lot to take care of before it can nab Gundam, and no other company is likely to adopt that title anyway since nearly all Sunrise works go through Bandai USA.

Ironically, a lot of older Gainax products are going through BV. o_O

relentlessflame
2007-11-21, 05:25
That said, what non-online retailer would take Nanoha anyway? I was under the impression DVD sales were done most cheaply online, and that a lion's share of them in recent times are being electronically handled. To take a sem-appropriate recent example, many many of Haruhi's DVDs direct from Bandai, when not sold at those silly BANDAI ENTERTAINMENT kisoks, went through online transactions.Avatar or anyone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but everything I've read over the last few years seems to indicate that brick & mortar stores remain, by far, the largest place where anime DVDs of all sorts are sold. Placement in these stores remains one of the big problems I repeated hear mentioned as being a key issue anime distributors are facing (and was one of the driving factors in the big push towards the "boxsets" and "thinpaks" of recent years -- keeping shows on store shelves when available retail space for anime is extremely limited). I am not an industry employee, but my impression from interviews and other comments from industry reps is that the online and direct sale markets are negligible in comparison.

Vexx
2007-11-21, 06:39
Interesting.... I've *never* purchased an anime title at a brick'n'mortar store. They simply don't carry anything I'm interested in... for that matter I hardly purchase any sort of DVD at them..... they don't carry what I want for the most part. I do look periodically.

SeijiSensei
2007-11-21, 08:42
Like Vexx, I buy online. With frequent sales and my "club" discount, RightStuf usually has anything I'm looking for. That said, I'm always impressed when I browse the selection of anime titles at the local Best Buy here (near Boston). They have a complete aisle of anime, probably some 40 linear feet and four shelves high. Their prices are nearly competitive with online in many cases. I actually bought the School Rumble special edition "locker" box there just because it was so cute.

Midonin
2007-11-21, 09:46
For me, Best Buy's the only place I've seen any anime locally, let alone such a good selection. Otherwise, I stick to online.

Vexx
2007-11-21, 11:11
Ah, that might explain something since I avoid Best Buy for a host of reasons unrelated to DVDs.

Avatar_notADV
2007-11-21, 11:55
I don't know that I'd say "negligible", and certainly it varies title to title, but brick and mortar still moves a surprisingly large number of copies - there was a time where BB was something like 30% of ALL anime sales, by itself. (Note that I haven't seen any figures for a couple of years...)

And no, I don't mean Gundam 00, I mean the original Gundam. We're talking about a title that sat around for so long that Bandai opened up a US branch just to put out Gundam. ;p

Finally, surely you can see why Elfen Lied is different from Nanoha, from a "sell this title to the retailer" perspective? "Buck naked woman rips apart people in fountains of gore" is EASY to sell. "Little girl gets magic wand and defeats monsters" is a lot harder. But it's fair to say that Nanoha's popularity hadn't really taken off until A's anyway - it took some time for the "oh yeah, that's the magical girl spinoff from that porn game" to get subsumed into "oh yeah, I watched the first fight in A's and got befriended!"

Malintex_Terek
2007-11-21, 20:21
Interesting.... I've *never* purchased an anime title at a brick'n'mortar store. They simply don't carry anything I'm interested in... for that matter I hardly purchase any sort of DVD at them..... they don't carry what I want for the most part. I do look periodically.

That's pretty much my situation as well. Stores like that don't exist in this neck of California - I buy most of my supplies from a whole-saler like Costco and never deal with retailers at all. The only time I went shopping for anime in a retail store was to look for "discount thin-packs" of Monster Rancher in the dollar bins of a Wal-Mart (I didn't find any).

Like SeijiSensei and Midonin, though, I've got to comment that online users are more likely to buy online than the not-so-net-savvy parents of young anime fans.

Xellos-_^
2007-11-21, 21:31
the last time i bought anime form a retail store with the Nadesico Brick pack form Best Buy maybe 5-6 years ago.

Every big of anime i have since is off the web.

dojikyo
2007-11-21, 21:53
I usually buy from Best Buy or RightStuf. Circuit City's dvd section is a mess and the selection of anime is pretty bad. Fry's is pretty good but way too far away.

Hopefully Funimation eventually picks up some of the Geneon licenses. Moon Phase was awesome. Postcards with art from the original artist were a nice little extra.

Kyuusai
2007-11-21, 22:44
When we talk about online sales versus brick 'n mortar stores, we can't forget to take into account the fact that most sales do happen to be in the major metropolitan areas. I can't find much at my local Hastings or Blockbuster, and Best Buy isn't much better... but NYC, SF, L.A., and the few similar cities see far more in-store sales and, heck, probably drive the industry as a whole.

And yes, Nanoha is not at all a title likely to do well in the mainstream. Yes, magical girl properties can be strong, but that's mainly among young girls. Content issues aside, Nanoha is accessible to young girls, I think, but it's certainly a title aimed at young adult males, and while magical girl properties do have a passionate following among young adult males in the US, it's a small passionate following.

And, for the record, I really enjoyed watching Nanoha and was eager to watch it with my little sister... until the lolicon-aimed transformation sequences. At that point I dropped it.

killbethy
2007-11-28, 06:28
since geneon didn't reach an agreement with adv and officially dropped all of their upcoming anime releases, does that also drop the licensing? they are stopping midway through a LOT of series. for example, they only released 3 dvds of higurashi... are the rest of the episodes technically okay to download fansubbed now? mou....

NoSanninWa
2007-11-28, 06:29
since geneon didn't reach an agreement with adv and officially dropped all of their upcoming anime releases, does that also drop the licensing? they are stopping midway through a LOT of series. for example, they only released 3 dvds of higurashi... are the rest of the episodes technically okay to download fansubbed now? mou....
No. They are still intending to release them. They just don't know the details yet.

Vexx
2007-11-28, 14:30
This is the "limbo" part of licensing... when the holding party is spiraling in flames but hanging on to assets that might be worth something in a firesale.

(looks sadly at his partially completed Karin collection)

killbethy
2007-11-29, 06:35
This is the "limbo" part of licensing... when the holding party is spiraling in flames but hanging on to assets that might be worth something in a firesale.

(looks sadly at his partially completed Karin collection)

there doesn't seem to be any limbo about it... they were intending to release things through adv, but the two companies couldn't come to an agreement. all the news i have read has said that geneon usa is dead for good... and if any of the series continue, they will have to be picked up by someone else.

http://anime.ign.com/articles/834/834362p1.html

Xellos-_^
2007-11-29, 12:17
there doesn't seem to be any limbo about it... they were intending to release things through adv, but the two companies couldn't come to an agreement. all the news i have read has said that geneon usa is dead for good... and if any of the series continue, they will have to be picked up by someone else.

http://anime.ign.com/articles/834/834362p1.html

Production has stop but the company is still there in a legal sense and still owns all rights to any anime in its profolio. So unless Genon USA completely close down and the rights to it is animes are revert back to the original company fansubs are still a no go.

Besides which Shows like Hellsing and Black Lagoon are pretty much going to be pick by someone they are the type of shows that tend to o well in the R1 market.

Also Avatar is still being pay by someone to work on Nanoha and Zero so both shows being release in the future is pretty high.

It is all just a matter of time.

Whitemoon648
2007-11-29, 12:42
I had a question. What does this Quote mean?:

"From October 1, 2007, Geneon USA will focus mainly on management of its works portfolio."

SeijiSensei
2007-11-29, 13:34
I had a question. What does this Quote mean?:

"From October 1, 2007, Geneon USA will focus mainly on management of its works portfolio."

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1166898#post1166898

Whitemoon648
2007-11-29, 15:51
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1166898#post1166898

So it just means that they are looking to find people to sell their product's licenses to? I thought it had a more significant meaning than that.

SeijiSensei
2007-11-29, 16:53
So it just means that they are looking to find people to sell their product's licenses to? I thought it had a more significant meaning than that.

Perhaps it does. What did you think it meant?

Vexx
2007-11-29, 17:05
It doesn't just mean "to sell their product licenses" ... they have works in progress that they appear to be trying to negotiate completion, release, and distribution agreements with other shops.

Rereading their news releases ... I'm wondering if they're intent on just becoming a clearing house or "prime contractor" and all the actual work gets outsourced.

Whitemoon648
2007-11-30, 14:31
Perhaps it does. What did you think it meant?

Well what i wrote was what i thought. But i still thought there might have been a bigger meaning to what they said. Such as they might want to completly stop trades with USA. In another words i thought maybe Geneon (JP) didnt want to have any of their works released in USA any more, which would be a bummer. They usually have good works and Geneon's quality of anime was improving and at a really good level. I was curious ( as probably many fans are) why Geneon did that. Wouldnt USA be one of their biggest market?
It doesn't just mean "to sell their product licenses" ... they have works in progress that they appear to be trying to negotiate completion, release, and distribution agreements with other shops.

Rereading their news releases ... I'm wondering if they're intent on just becoming a clearing house or "prime contractor" and all the actual work gets outsourced.

Oh to finish the unfinished works. I completly forgot about that. Well i still hope they would some how release their work in USA. Also It was a shame that they couldnt come up with an agreement with AD vision. After VIZ they are my most favorite producers.

Vexx
2008-01-02, 18:46
Queried the address given on Geneon's still active website (which links to a Rightstuf address). Here's the response I got. Not promising but not dead and buried either.

Hello-
Unfortunately, we haven't heard anything about another company picking
up Geneon's unfinished titles. If/when that does happen, the
announcement will be made on both the company website and ours as well.

Thank you and have a nice day,
Brandon B.

The other thing is that Geneon's website acts as if things are still running... just no updates or status updates since November.

Aoie_Emesai
2008-01-02, 19:08
The other thing is that Geneon's website acts as if things are still running... just no updates or status updates since November.

I guess they might still have a chance to see the market value of their assets ^^

Seiryuu
2008-03-26, 06:27
I'm out of date on this, and there's probably a different thread somewhere I didn't look on it, but I'm curious about this. As I've heard it, Geneon USA has completely shut down. Some companies, like Funimation, are trying to acquire the licenses that Geneon either didn't start or didn't finish. Regardless, the licensing company seems to be no more, so my question is: of those licenses that have not yet had a single release, what is their status? I've heard of licenses being cancelled before, and I know how such a show's status is viewed on AS and the forums. But what of ZnT, Nanoha and Geneon's other recent buys?
Please note, I am only asking about Geneon licenses that have not begun distribution yet and that have not been officially picked up by a different company. If my information is out of date and all their licenses have been reclaimed, then that's fine. I also know that most of the licenses, if not yet claimed, are likely targets for other companies to license and will probably be licensed soon. But, again, until officially transferred, what is the general view?
note: I'm also disregarding issues with parent companies, such as MFI, since shows with such issues have the same status whether licensed or not.

bayoab
2008-03-26, 09:20
All shows are still licensed by Geneon. They have just stopped releasing the DVDs. They are still working on production of the series (dubbing, subtitles) as they have contracts with other companies that require them to finish the work on them.

Vexx
2008-03-26, 17:13
This is... so bloody strange. My 3 Karin volumes sitting their Karin artbox would really like to have the rest of their sisters join them. My fund for Nanoha is getting dusty....

The total lack of status doesn't improve my disposition.
Here's a link to the last bit of information someone was able to spot (in February):
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-02-08/funimation-negotiating-to-acquire-geneon-titles

Kamui4356
2008-03-26, 19:08
I really wish someone would take Nanoha off their hands already... It was one of the series I was looking foward to buying. On line of course, as I was certainly not looking forward to getting strange looks from the cashier at best buy. :uhoh:

You'd think as an anime fan I'd be used to those strange looks. :heh:

Icehawk
2008-03-26, 19:58
So long as Black Lagoon and Higurashi get picked up I will be happy, those two shows simly MUST be finnished. Yeah, the silence on the status of this debacle is really annoying. Would have been nice if Funimation gave an update at that convention they were at recently.

Seiryuu
2008-03-26, 22:30
Sorry for making the new thread, I was looking for this in the license department.
As I said, I have no doubt about stuff like Higurashi, where some of the series is complete. At that point, contracts and plans become harder to change. Prior to initial distribution, however, things are a little less certain. I understood, however, that no new productions would be produced and distributed, so it sounds like projects like Nanoha that are still in the earlier stages were simply cut. I just want to know how the "complete" shutdown of Geneon USA effects those. It could be that they're far enough along and have done enough work on the first volumes that contracts with other companies will require production or sale. On the other hand, depending on how far along production was, it could be like Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch: work just stops and deals are voided. So, were the series they've been PLANNING but not yet PRODUCING completely dropped, or are there still some contractual obligations left?

bayoab
2008-03-27, 00:18
Production continued on all Geneon series. Even the ones they hadn't even started work on before closing.

Also, it appears that the first true rescue has appeared as there is a post on the AnimeonDVD forums that Media Blasters has Seirei no Moribito. (Trailer is supposedly on Kite: Liberator DVD).

Xellos-_^
2008-03-27, 13:03
Sorry for making the new thread, I was looking for this in the license department.
As I said, I have no doubt about stuff like Higurashi, where some of the series is complete. At that point, contracts and plans become harder to change. Prior to initial distribution, however, things are a little less certain. I understood, however, that no new productions would be produced and distributed, so it sounds like projects like Nanoha that are still in the earlier stages were simply cut. I just want to know how the "complete" shutdown of Geneon USA effects those. It could be that they're far enough along and have done enough work on the first volumes that contracts with other companies will require production or sale. On the other hand, depending on how far along production was, it could be like Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch: work just stops and deals are voided. So, were the series they've been PLANNING but not yet PRODUCING completely dropped, or are there still some contractual obligations left?

Translation and timing for Nanoha has been finish for quite a while. Not sure where the dubs stand but Nanoha was not cut in the early stages.

Quarkboy
2008-03-27, 22:15
Translation and timing for Nanoha has been finish for quite a while. Not sure where the dubs stand but Nanoha was not cut in the early stages.

Nanoha has been completely dubbed, info from personal contact who knows the VA for nanoha.

Whether the dub ever gets released is still completely unknown.

darkchibi07
2008-03-27, 22:47
Nanoha has been completely dubbed, info from personal contact who knows the VA for nanoha.

Whether the dub ever gets released is still completely unknown.

Do you know who'll be dubbing it or that's a secret?

Kamui4356
2008-03-28, 03:32
Nanoha has been completely dubbed, info from personal contact who knows the VA for nanoha.

Whether the dub ever gets released is still completely unknown.

That's good to hear. If it's read to go it will hopefully increase the chances of another company picking it up. It would be a shame if they put all that work in and it never sees a release though...

KatsuKy
2008-03-28, 04:26
how about Hayate no gotoku, is it a Geneon's?

Seiryuu
2008-03-28, 04:54
Nanoha has been completely dubbed, info from personal contact who knows the VA for nanoha.

Whether the dub ever gets released is still completely unknown.

Does that mean the entire series is dubbed or just vol1? When I said earlier stages of production I meant there hadn't been any releases. Relatively speaking, completion of one DVD puts it at just a little past the quarter mark. Oh well, let someone pick it up soon.

demonix
2008-03-28, 08:52
Does that mean the entire series is dubbed or just vol1? When I said earlier stages of production I meant there hadn't been any releases. Relatively speaking, completion of one DVD puts it at just a little past the quarter mark. Oh well, let someone pick it up soon.

If it's complete then the whole thing has been dubbed (remember that geneon only licensed the first 2 seasons which are only 13 episodes each and considering the length of time it's been since the license was announced would mean that the whole thing has been dubbed)

how about Hayate no gotoku, is it a Geneon's?

You have just earned a facepalm (why ask about a series that hasn't even been licensed yet)

nexist418
2008-03-28, 10:19
That's good to hear. If it's read to go it will hopefully increase the chances of another company picking it up. It would be a shame if they put all that work in and it never sees a release though...

Yeah, since I have only seen strikers & I've been waiting for months now for these to e released.

FatPianoBoy
2008-03-28, 10:26
Unless you're waiting out of respect, there are methods of acquiring the first two ;)

Quarkboy
2008-03-28, 10:40
Do you know who'll be dubbing it or that's a secret?

I didn't hear which dubbing studio, but the cast lists on animenewsnetwork's encyclopedia are correct, as far as I the roles I personally know.

Furthermore, it looks pretty probable that Media Blasters will be releasing it, as John Sirebella (head of MB) posted a hint that he had 2 of the ex-geneon series yet unannouced and those were ones that had not been started yet by Geneon (which narrows the possibilities considerably... Probably Nanoha and one other)

darkchibi07
2008-03-28, 11:08
I didn't hear which dubbing studio, but the cast lists on animenewsnetwork's encyclopedia are correct, as far as I the roles I personally know.

Furthermore, it looks pretty probable that Media Blasters will be releasing it, as John Sirebella (head of MB) posted a hint that he had 2 of the ex-geneon series yet unannouced and those were ones that had not been started yet by Geneon (which narrows the possibilities considerably... Probably Nanoha and one other)

Well then, looks like I'll make a trip to that Nanoha sub-forum! :D

Altvaltex
2008-03-28, 11:15
how about Hayate no gotoku, is it a Geneon's?

Hayate No gotoku is just licensed today by shogakukan so I guess its not..but ITS LICENSED NOW T_T

xris
2008-03-28, 11:36
Hayate No gotoku is just licensed today by shogakukan so I guess its not..but ITS LICENSED NOW T_T
Could you link to this because it hasn't yet been confirmed or reported on the usual sites.

Plus, it's rather off-topic to this thread isn't it.

Xellos-_^
2008-03-28, 11:54
I didn't hear which dubbing studio, but the cast lists on animenewsnetwork's encyclopedia are correct, as far as I the roles I personally know.

Furthermore, it looks pretty probable that Media Blasters will be releasing it, as John Sirebella (head of MB) posted a hint that he had 2 of the ex-geneon series yet unannouced and those were ones that had not been started yet by Geneon (which narrows the possibilities considerably... Probably Nanoha and one other)

I had heard MB got it early on but then recently i heard Fumi has Nanoha.

SeijiSensei
2008-03-28, 11:54
John Sirebella (head of MB) posted a hint that he had 2 of the ex-geneon series yet unannouced and those were ones that had not been started yet by Geneon (which narrows the possibilities considerably... Probably Nanoha and one other)

The talk (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1489070&postcount=1220) in the Seirei no Moribito thread is that SnM is the other series.

Quarkboy
2008-03-28, 13:50
The talk (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1489070&postcount=1220) in the Seirei no Moribito thread is that SnM is the other series.

Nope... John mentioned the "two more" in the same thread he dropped the SnM hint over at animeondvd's forums, AFTER he revealed that license.

So he has 2 more IN ADDITION to Seirei no Moribito...

The post is here:

http://www.animeondvd.com/forum/showpost.php?post/687159/

FatPianoBoy
2008-03-28, 13:59
His comment on partially released titles surprises me. I thought Geneon was a victim of corporate BS due to slumping (but by no means tragic) profits.

Quarkboy
2008-03-28, 14:06
His comment on partially released titles surprises me. I thought Geneon was a victim of corporate BS due to slumping (but by no means tragic) profits.

They are, but even corporate BS still is overridden by possible money making... Dentsu is sitting on rights to things that it has no plans to release itself. It's easy money to sell them off cheap to someone else to finish, and at least they recoup some losses.

It's surprising that the unfinished series haven't been sold yet, to me. Probably just long negotiations since there's issues to be resolved with re-releasing the earlier volumes, box-set rights, etc...

Quarkboy
2008-03-28, 14:13
Could you link to this because it hasn't yet been confirmed or reported on the usual sites.

Plus, it's rather off-topic to this thread isn't it.

I think he got it from Crunchy Roll, which seems to have pulled the series due to it being "licensed".

http://www.crunchyroll.com/series-2792/Hayate-no-Gotoku.html

it says "licensed by Shogakugan productions"

considering that shogakugan is a japanese company that produced the show, I think that they requested it be taken off crunchy-roll but it's not "licensed" in R1.

P.S. the comments REALLY piss me off. "The companies that did this must DIE!!" etc... "One more anime gone!" ...
sure you get a little bit of that here, but nothing like the vitriol on cr when something is pulled.

bayoab
2008-03-28, 16:04
Though apparently C&D letters to Crunchyroll have been beating announcements (as mentioned at AB). It might be the case of the US company going to the Japanese company and saying 'You do it, we don't want to leak this'.

And I'd guess the reason it is taking so long is Dentsu is trying to recoup as much of their costs as possible and not trying to just give away their properties which do have value. They are probably trying to dump some of the larger properties (Black Lagoon, Hellsing Ultimate) together with some of their lesser properties that weren't finished (Law of Ueki).

SeijiSensei
2008-03-28, 16:21
I wonder if other potential licensors share Sirabella's opinion that he only wants series that have not yet been released. I can understand not wanting to become responsible for someone else's product, but I wonder what that means for shows like Saiunkoku Monogatari which have only one or two DVDs released.

Also I recall that the first wave of take-down notices sent to YouTube actually came from the association that represents Japanese composers and musicians. I think the profusion of anime music videos was the stimulus in that case, but I can see the same groups objecting to the hosting of anime episodes on similar grounds.

Vexx
2008-03-28, 16:45
(sighs and stares at his partial collection of the anime Karin)

Not really sounding hopeful for partially released Geneon titles at the moment, is it?

Xellos-_^
2008-03-28, 16:47
I wonder if other potential licensors share Sirabella's opinion that he only wants series that have not yet been released. I can understand not wanting to become responsible for someone else's product, but I wonder what that means for shows like Saiunkoku Monogatari
which have only one or two DVDs released.
Also I recall that the first wave of take-down notices sent to YouTube actually came from the association that represents Japanese composers and musicians. I think the profusion of anime music videos was the stimulus in that case, but I can see the same groups objecting to the hosting of anime episodes on similar grounds.


I like Saiunkoku but it was a show that should never have been license. Licensing shows like Saiunkoku is how genon got the way they are today. Unless it is package with a more popular show or sold at a very low cost i doubt any company will want it.

bayoab
2008-03-28, 19:06
I like Saiunkoku but it was a show that should never have been license. Licensing shows like Saiunkoku is how genon got the way they are today. Unless it is package with a more popular show or sold at a very low cost i doubt any company will want it.

We don't know what Geneon paid. We don't know how many discs geneon had sold of the first volumes. There are too many unknowns to even say whether that statement is even accurate. Geneon staff did claim they were hitting targets on almost all series.

Vexx
2008-03-28, 19:27
Aye, there's too much of a thriving market in "niche" market DVDs to write off something simply because the numbers sold is small (see PBS.org or bbc.co.uk for endless examples of quality but low-sales mini-series and other gems) compared to some hugely popular title.

Seiryuu
2008-03-29, 23:23
The suggestion that Geneon's failure may be the result of some overall mediocrity in the series they've distributed recently is very sad. It's quite frankly an idiotic judgment that, upon reading, made me immediately think of the braindead executives of Dilbert comics. I mean no offense, but that particular judgment is very thoughtless and overly generalized. Sure, I don't like everything Geneon's brought out, just like there's many series I won't touch produced by any given company. Frankly, I think one of the big hindrances to sales was not the quality of the series or their presentation, but the price. Honestly, I've many times walked into a store, looked through various DVDs, and come across some great series I love done by most companies for just over $20, and some great series I love done be Geneon for 26 to just under 30. This isn't a massive difference, I know, but anyone who has limited funds or wants to limit his spending will stop when they see a relative difference like that. I absolutely love Stellvia, but I have not purchased a single DVD. When I get DVDs, I often get several that I like, count out the price, and if I don't like the amount I'll put back some of the most expensive items. This wouldn't matter to me with series like Higurashi, where the thought of not buying frankly never came to mind, but when making that snap decision it's often the Geneon stuff that went back on the shelf.
Frankly, given whatever changes need to be made to afford a decrease in price, I suspect many of Geneon's series would have done much better. I'm always eager to replace old fansubs with professional work and support distributors, but there's only so many things I can buy at a time.
So perhaps, instead of wondering why the series didn't sell, perhaps companies should be considering why Geneon wasn't able to sell any of them. After all, which is more likely, that every series this company was mid-distribution on was worthless, or that the company had hit a point where it couldn't effectively sell water in a drought?

cyth
2008-03-31, 03:48
Well, your argument for mediocrity not being an issue isn't very thoughtful either. The trend of this discussion was to tie Geneon's fall to one reason that would explain it all. The overall picture is probably more complex IMO. The price of their DVDs was an issue for some consumers, definitely, I personally think they made dubs for series that generally don't sell well among casual consumers, then there was piracy, the declining DVD market and U.S. economic slowdown. Geneon used to have higher price tags, so it's good to remember that decreasing prices isn't as easy as flipping a switch. If there is no market for sales expansion, the whole idea is border-line lucrative. The real issue is that anime business in the U.S. is no fairy tale. If Geneon had been doing well, we wouldn't have seen this kind of turnout.

Seiryuu
2008-04-02, 06:03
I did not say mediocre shows weren't an issue. I personally admitted there were shows they did that I just didn't like and wouldn't buy for any price. I just noted that most distibutors have some hits and some misses, and that it seems profoundly unlikely that the company had developed taste so bad that you could blame the mediocrity of those series. At least not all of them. I just noted that, good or bad, if your competitors' prices are often around 10 to 20% less than yours, you're going to have to work extra hard to maintain your market base, and, therefore, it will be more difficult for your successes to outweigh your mistakes. Prices may be hard to change, but that wouldn't change the tendency of consumers to favor cheaper products. It might not have been a deciding factor, but I do believe the more popular series may have been better able to compensate for the unpopular ones if not for other factors, one of them being price. That's why I said that ignoring partially completed series on such grounds is silly. Certainly, series like Higurashi shouldn't be disregarded.

Please note that I'm talking about comments made by executives in distribution companies concerning their reluctance to buy partially-released series, not about any comments here about what should or shouldn't have been licensed or how certain licenses may have ended up more burdens than anything else. There are plenty of shows that shouldn't be licensed, or that will need more work than normal to produce a profit. I'm just mad that some executives would actually say part of the reason they won't buy a certain series is because it wasn't enough to save Geneon.

Mikewolf
2008-07-06, 04:42
BIG NEWS!

Funimation has agreed to distribute Geneon's Licensed titles

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-07-03/funimation-agrees-to-distribute-select-geneon-titles