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ljjewell
2007-10-23, 15:33
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-10-23/japan-asks-america-to-stop-illegal-net-releases-of-anime

What (if at all) does this mean for animesuki's future?

Veritas
2007-10-23, 15:51
It's up to the mods. What will it mean for fansubbing? Probably very little.

2H-Dragon
2007-10-23, 15:56
I don't know what this means for animesuki's future, but we knew that fan subbing wasn't legal from the start. If japan promises to sub everything they release I have no problem with it. Till then I'll keep dling my fansubs. Even if animesuki goes down. Animesuki isn't the only place to get subs. Same with pirated movies. They are everywhere. We might get less subbers, but meh you can't have everything I guess.

Though you also have to think how much will the states care? They might just ignore the fact and keep on going like they always where. They where never legal. Why start now? Don't see a reason for the States to invest money in hunting down something that won't benefit them financially or make their country better.

edit: It seems to be a request out of many. So chance of the States listening to that is close to zero. I say animesuki is safe.

SuperAsuradaGundam
2007-10-23, 15:56
I think the big question is how will it affect the industry as a whole.

Xellos-_^
2007-10-23, 16:00
So Japan is telling me I shouldn't buy any more anime.

aboutblue
2007-10-23, 16:16
So Japan is telling me I shouldn't buy any more anime.

No, Japan is saying that you should be buying anime. Not downloading it. Unless of course you've been paying the creators for your downloads, which I doubt.

Hopefully, if there is a crack down, it will focus more on series that have been officially dubbed and less on ones that haven't. Even though legally speaking it doesn't make a difference.

2H-Dragon
2007-10-23, 16:22
No, Japan is saying that you should be buying anime. Not downloading it. Unless of course you've been paying the creators for your downloads, which I doubt.

Hopefully, if there is a crack down, it will focus more on series that have been officially dubbed and less on ones that haven't. Even though legally speaking it doesn't make a difference.

How much anime do you buy without watching it first? The prob with anime it's way too diverse. The tastes differ way too much. My luck is that I'm an odd ball most anime I like don't get licensed.

SuperAsuradaGundam
2007-10-23, 16:30
I wonder what do the international trade laws say about about watching a foreign media in a nation where no one has the rights to the work within that country. Would that mean that the foreign producer (in this case, the Japanese producer of the anime) have the sole international rights to the show, or is it just in Japan?

Kamui4356
2007-10-23, 16:38
No, Japan is saying that you should be buying anime. Not downloading it. Unless of course you've been paying the creators for your downloads, which I doubt.

How much anime would people own without fansubs though? Looking at my dvd shelf there are quite a few series that wouldn't be there without first watching the fansubs. The most recent example would be AIR, the oldest example would be Excel Saga, and there are many examples in between.

The previlence of fansubs should be evidence of a potental market. Companies didn't see it and fansubbers filled that role. I've said it in another thread, I dont' think a legit subscription or ad supported download site featuring subbed anime is too much to ask for. Give fans a legal alternative, and everyone's happy.

bayoab
2007-10-23, 16:43
Before the same misunderstanding is made...


Wow. That's quite a statement.

Nine lines out of fifty pages (on document p.49 / file p. 52). *Rolling Eyes

The news feature gives an impression that Japanese MoFA issued this formal statement on behalf of anime and only anime. That is not quite the case here. It is a report on the reform of regulations and policies of the United States requested by the government of Japan. Copyright protection is just one of many, many issues mentioned in the report.

Risaa
2007-10-23, 17:38
Conjunctions ("and", "but", "if", as a few examples) are your friends. :heh:

Frankly, it's not something I'd be worried about. IMO, they ought to consider that a small chunk of their sales come from fans checking out a series and then loving it enough to buy it. See Vexx's siggie. :)

SuperAsuradaGundam
2007-10-23, 18:10
I think what we are seeing here is the anime market, especially oversees is at a plateau, mainly because the many shows that are being produced are not piercing into the mainstream market, especially in America, thus it is becoming difficult to make a profit in the anime industry. Many shows that I notice being released are of the harem genre, however those shows are mainly made for the anime fan, not for the intention of mainstream media like Detective Conan, Naruto, Gundam, etc... In America only a few shows get recgonized in the mainstream market (Naruto, Pokemon, Yugioh, DBZ). What the companies should do is start to pitch these shows to the gneral public and if they are well received, then the market can expand. Right now the easiest way to try to make a buck is to stop the ilegal online distribution of anime, however that may not work considering the advancement of technology and also that this very thing does help bring shows oversees.

guest
2007-10-23, 18:22
Don't you guys remember that music online sharing crack down long time ago? A lot of college students were sued back then and paid enormous fine, at least. There is a lot less music online sharing now. This could be like that, you know, or could it be?

wingdarkness
2007-10-23, 18:37
Japan needs to mind Japan's business...It's easy to say scrap those fansubs when you got anime on every channel, and your favorite show is just a thumb-press a way...When Japan starts beaming a satellite signal to that $hitty dish in my backyard maybe I'll reconsider...


There is a lot less music online sharing now.
Surely you jest...

Altema
2007-10-23, 18:44
The problem with those individuals claiming that fansubs makes them buy more anime is that in the long run it makes more people NOT buy anime.

I personally own 0 DVDs. Reason being is lack of money. Fansubs allow me to own an endless supply of anime.

Corn
2007-10-23, 18:56
seems a bit strange. Aint all of Narutos popularity in the west, because of fansubs? I mean... fansubs is what made it possible. and now many import the anime and manga, and watch it and buy all the hundreds of games. all because of nameless fansubbers?

the anime marked in the west is relatively small. many people dont know what it is. particularly in europe. expousure through online channels will only sell the messege, and eventually turn enough people around.

remember that more people wanna be on the net than they wanna watch tv. its the evolution, no matter what.

and hopefully they will release that. people will buy what they really like, so if they take it seriously, it will sell, and pay off in the long run i think.

fansubbers are doing the anime world a favor. expousure!

Altema
2007-10-23, 19:01
There are still a ton of people though who will never spend a dime on anime, and that's the result of fansubbers.

If you want exposure, companies could enforce a preview where you can watch like the first three eps and then its up to you to buy or not. Allowing exposure through fansubs eliminates the market of people who might actually buy the product, but won't because of fansubs. Why do I need to buy a DVD of an anime when I have it all on fansubs?

Crystal Requiem
2007-10-23, 19:02
BWAHAHAHA. They really think it'll stop us? You can't stop the internetz baby!

Seriously, licensed anime is one thing, but all fansubbing? What about the animes that are never licensed? They dare say we can't watch the television they're watching? Screw them. There's no sense in it. And to think how hard sites like this try to keep all products of licensed anime away, and the members who follow by such rules, this will only increase the over all amount of illegal file-sharing. How many millions of people are going to get pissed when sites like AS, FTV, and CR (just to name a few) are shut down? A lot.

It would be interesting to see if America refused and Japan declared war. :D

Altema
2007-10-23, 19:04
I do say it would suck for anime that never get licensed to be blocked as well.

Although, the point about this action increasing the overall illegal file sharing is kind of funny. I doubt we are all 5 year old kids that end up doing more of something that we are told not to do.

wingdarkness
2007-10-23, 19:08
It would be interesting to see if America refused and Japan declared war :D
:p lol

And maybe we can get Micheal Bay to direct the re-enactment...

Oh crap he already did with the $hiteous Pearl Harbor :uhoh:...

Now what would be really interesting is if Japan declared war but states we can only fight using the Nintendo PowerGun and PowerGlove...Then we'll get our a$$ess kicked and totally lose fansubs for good^^...

cicido
2007-10-23, 19:26
I don't see the point, if Japan think that just by stopping fan sub would increase the DVD sale well that's just wrong.

If people won't buy DVD after fansub I highly doubt that they will buy it without fansub.
All my money spent on anime won't even be spent if there were no fan sub to start with.

Yosho
2007-10-23, 19:30
I have to say I've been a big proponent of subscriptions and try before you buy programs. I used to run an Anime Club; obviously we didn't have a lot of money. So besides members bringing in anime's that they owned, we would preview 2-3 episodes of fansubs for a set of series. From that we voted on which series we would use the clubs money to buy. I tried to work with VIZ, Bandai, AnimeEigo and a few others to work out a completely legit way of doing this, and they cooperated a little; however they would only send us what they wanted us to have. It was sad really. But we got cool free stuff like T-Shirts and mouse pads. ^_^

As other have said the future is on the internet. Having an inexpensive way of preview/buying/renting/whatever Anime and other media is the way to go. I say inexpensive because no one wants to pay DVD price for online media. I would gladly participate in this.

Nowadays I earn enough money that I can buy DVD's on a whim; so I've collected quite a bit of anime both online and offline. Can I get a B+ for effort? Please?

CandyVanMan
2007-10-23, 20:01
I'm rather simple minded.

Japan: I have money, you want it. You have Anime, I want it. Let's make a deal. Sell it to me or I'll take it for myself.

Zhemos
2007-10-23, 20:05
When is Japan going to learn that fansubs HELP promote anime.

I'll tell you right now. If I had never stumbled across a certain website 5 years ago and downloaded Love Hina I would have probably never gotten into anime, nor would I have spent the thousand some dollars I have invested right now in anime DvDs.

psycho bolt
2007-10-23, 20:05
Wtf, asking america to stop illegal distributing anime? Lols like that gonna happen. Not like the rest of the world is gonna listen too. Besides America is only a small part of illegal distribution. And the evidences that point pirating anime doesn't effect sales....just like music downloading.

Bleh, words come outta government mouths these days..

"the ministry says the fundamental problem remains unresolved for the foreseeable future" - what foreseeable future? I'm interested in your explaination of the future

SuperAsuradaGundam
2007-10-23, 20:13
Looks like we're going to have a long talk about this.


Lets wait and see what the government does and how the industry reacts.

Altema
2007-10-23, 20:13
Yes, music downloading does not effect sales. That's why musicians and artists love to spend money for lawyer fees to fight something that does not harm them in any way.

Again, you have these cases where people discovered fansubs, downloaded anime, and proceeded to buy DVDs. Then you have the flip side where people have 2 TB of anime, probably 1.5 TB not even watched, and they don't spend a dime on anime. Now if they had previewed a series, and could not get it anywhere else, they may have purchased something. But such a system would not matter if everything is free.

For a lot of people, the DVD's offer very little reason to purchase a series versus having the fansubs.

psycho bolt
2007-10-23, 20:30
The thing is that anime is distributed on TV in which we watch can watch without paying every show.

Altema
2007-10-23, 20:32
And your point is? I'm sorry, I don't follow.

psycho bolt
2007-10-23, 20:37
Since Japanese can watch anime freely on TV, why can't Americans get the same thing? We have no way of getting anime besides Fansubs. And I'm sure we don't wanna spend money on things we haven't previewed.

neutralizer
2007-10-23, 20:39
Since Japanese can watch anime freely on TV, why can't Americans get the same thing? We have no way of getting anime besides Fansubs. And I'm sure we don't wanna spend money on things we haven't previewed.

Not to mention, it takes so long for the DVDs to be released.

On side note, I hate the subtitle text looks on DVD :(

Crystal Requiem
2007-10-23, 20:48
Not to mention, it takes so long for the DVDs to be released.

Lol, from what I hear, if you live in Canada, you're screwed. Waiting for DVDs of anime that we would know nothing about is bogus. And American commercials for anime are so stupid.

Altema
2007-10-23, 20:48
Since Japanese can watch anime freely on TV, why can't Americans get the same thing? We have no way of getting anime besides Fansubs. And I'm sure we don't wanna spend money on things we haven't previewed.

Lack of demand and airtime would be two reasons.

bayoab
2007-10-23, 20:51
Since Japanese can watch anime freely on TV, why can't Americans get the same thing? We have no way of getting anime besides Fansubs. And I'm sure we don't wanna spend money on things we haven't previewed. I will not bother disproving the whole free bit as it is not free, but if we assume it was aired on cable in the US, it would be closer to equivalent.
And the answer is because people don't watch it on television. If anime really did that well on the air, there would be more of it. It is that simple. But beside Naruto and Pokemon and the like, anime gets horrible ratings and thus cannot pull in advertising money. If they cannot find advertising money to pay for the shows, they don't air them. It is simple economics.

When is Japan going to learn that fansubs HELP promote anime.
And that 95% of the people who download fansubs and never buy a disc help how?

ZeRoGravity
2007-10-23, 21:10
I actually found Japan's action amusing. "Asking" usually doesn't help. I'm sure America have more important things to worry about than the anime industry.

Altema
2007-10-23, 21:12
NBC asked me to stop downloading their movies, but asking helped there T________T.

Zaris
2007-10-23, 21:23
As long as the US has better things to crack down like terrorists and drugs, they won't care. The illegal net releases here aren't exactly illegal until the US licenses them officially, anyway. It's one country's ethics over another's.

The scale of unlicensed anime releases indicates something very obvious: there is a high demand for Japanese animation outside their borders. Clubs and conventions wills it. And fansubbers have been declared valued contributors to the market's advertising and success largely by overcoming the behemoth language gap, not to mention more accurate, better styled, and less imposing subtitles. This puts fansubs a step ahead in the game especially when a program starts airing. In short, the industry has done nothing to persuade audiences into buying their merchandise, and now they're having a fit with their marketers trying to meet a demand the industry's been slow with coping.

aohige
2007-10-23, 21:26
Since Japanese can watch anime freely on TV, why can't Americans get the same thing? We have no way of getting anime besides Fansubs. And I'm sure we don't wanna spend money on things we haven't previewed.

And what about the bootleg copies of movies, OVAs, pay-per-view shows, paid cable/satellite shows, and other purchased-only incentive shows that's rampant in the torrent streams? Even with legal issues aside, morally, those should never be available as free pirated downloads without rightholders' consent.

Heck, I bet majority of people who download those anime shows off P2P don't even know if those are TV airwave shows or paid shows.

As for "watching TV broadcast shows for free because it was originally free in Japan"...
I would agree with it, only if the fansubs and pirates include the original TV ads.
To be fair, you should watch the CM too right? :rolleyes:
But no, even though it's the advertising sponsors that funds the anime being made, illegal copies over the net cuts them out. That's simply not right.

Too bad their products aren't internationally available though. :heh:

mcruz1014
2007-10-23, 21:28
All I can say is that this has probably been said and done before, though probably in more private talks between politicians. So it would make sense that the American government probably didn't listen before, causing the Japanese gov. to bring the request public.

I doubt that this will change much of anything. The most that would happen would be a tougher crackdown on video sharing sites like youtube (which we've also seen before, and the internet community responded by uploading anime in larger numbers, at a more frequent pace).

Remember all the fuss about illegal music file sharing not too long ago (and that was from America's own industry), and you'll see that not much has changed with that situation, nor will it with anime fansubs.

the.Merines
2007-10-23, 21:45
Is this really talking about fansubbing, directly? Seems more to me like it refers to streaming sites like Youtube, etc., who allow anyone to upload anything. Sure, if they see an episode of a licensed series up'd there, they delete it, but it's only a matter of time before someone else uploads the same thing.

Streaming of (R1) licensed anime over the internet is bad for DVD sales, and thus bad for the industry. Japanese distributors can easily go after these types of sites. Things like IRC and torrents, though, are far more difficult to stifle.

psycho bolt
2007-10-23, 21:48
Hmm you got a point. But there are some good sites that encourages people to buy the dvds, well most of the streaming vids are fansubs though....

But the quality of the streams...are kinda hard to watch..

Ichihara Asako
2007-10-23, 21:56
This is a rather interesting move. I'm sure it will have some sort of impact, though doubt it will be major. It's impossible to stop P2P sharing. Even if dedicated sites like AS are hit, it won't stop the countless public trackers. The MPAA/RIAA have tried for years to shut them down and failed, a much smaller industry like Anime isn't going to succeed. And it's about as simple as that.

orange.a
2007-10-23, 21:58
If they want me to but anime, then FIRST, they need to come into my country and start selling it, I'm not going to ebay DVDs from USA because they want me to buy instead of download.

Also, this isn't going to stop the fansubbers. Sure a lot of fansubs are going to shut down because of that, but Anon is a greater force than anybody have ever imagined. Anon doesn't care about this kind of things so until Japan starts releasing it's DVDs with english subs, fansubs are pretty much doomed to exist.

bayoab
2007-10-23, 22:27
The scale of unlicensed anime releases indicates something very obvious: there is a high demand for FREE Japanese animation outside their borders. Clubs and conventions wills it. And fansubbers have been declared valued contributors to the market's advertising and success ON RARE OCCASION largely by overcoming the behemoth language gap, not to mention NOT AS more accurate (ON AVERAGE), FREE FROM DVD LIMITATIONS SINCE THEY ARE HARDSUBBED better styled, and MORE less imposing subtitles. This puts fansubs a step ahead in the game FOR PIRATES especially when a program starts airing. In short, the industry has done nothing HAS TRIED to persuade audiences into buying their merchandise, and now they're having a fit with their marketers trying to meet a demand the industry's been slow with coping. THE OVERALL DEVALUATION OF THEIR PRODUCTS.

FIXED that for you.

HurricaneHige
2007-10-23, 22:55
Altho i understand where the anime studios are coming from, i can bet my life savings their overseas profit will take quite a hit if they completely ban fansubs. I think most if not all of this forums agrees with me with that point, but i just wanna point out something.

1. Dubs r generally junk: altho the quality of dubs are getting better and better, and i agree that there are a few VAs that perform on-par, and sometimes better than Seiyuus, there are too few and far in between, seiyuus are generally better compare to VAs. That is why subs r better.

2. Lack of information: To be honest, even with animenetwork and such, the information on anime is severely lacking in North America, and i don't mean a simple plot summary, i mean like "information", such as the stuff we are sharing rite now on this forum, and these forums will be much less populated, and even cease to exist if fansubs are banned since noone could watch the anime before it is licensed. I for one will not waste money on an anime if i have not experienced first hand what it is about, or at least heard enuf information on it to make a decision, and i think there are quite a few peeps that shared the same view as me.

3. Products: Think about the population that will not purchase anime if they are not sure they are good or not, for example, i dont think i would've bought the six Saber figures + various fanbooks if i had not watched the anime, and guess what? that comes up to more than the DVD sales they would've made off me if they would've sold me the DVDs alone, and i probably wouldn't have bought the anime if i didn't watch it first (i was skeptical with FSN, until i watched it). Meaning they would've lost the sales entirely if it wasn't for fansubs, and this ultimately leads to this:

If they allow fansubs to continue, will the revenue made off of extra sales from advertising fansubs cover the lost DVD sales from fansubs freeloaders?

I'm not sure how much market research they did, but i for sure hope they did do a research and found that fansubs will indeed decrease their overall sales before they decide to act against it, just because they "think" it'll help. Anime Studios should exist to make money, and i personally believe that they will make more with advertising from fansubs, altho i don't have the data(duh), but judging from various boards reactions i think its safe to say that many share the same view on anime as me- they bought anime and anime related products BECUZ they watched it on fansubs before, and if they were uncertain, they probably would never have seen it if it wasnt for fansubs.

If indeed sales will increase from banning fansubs, then i will suck it up and agree with banning fansubs, but until they can present a market research that supports that hypothesis, i'm going to stand by mine proudly, since it benefits the studios that i support so much and also us in which we get anime much quicker than license ones

Altema
2007-10-23, 23:09
I'm pretty sure they did research, lol. I don't know many companies that blindly make decisions because they "think" it will help. You don't make costly moves without thinking first.

You purchased figurines and products equal to the cost of one DVD set. I have a fansub collection of about 500 or so DVDS. Somewhere a long the lines, I probably would have bought a DVD here and there, but why bother if fansubs are 100% free. That's probably the attitude of a ton of anime watchers. I THINK there is some lost revenue there.

I think what some of the people here have to realize is that not everyone that watches anime is doing what you guys are doing. Not everyone that watches fansubs feels inclined to buy the DVD and then proceed to buy anime related products.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-23, 23:13
sites like AS, FTV, and CR (just to name a few) are shut down? A lot.

It would be interesting to see if America refused and Japan declared war. :D


LOL, with what? Hell, the US has bases in Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Tokyo, Osaka....the US military makes up a portion of defense against (Not trying to start anything) China.




They might put a hit into the fansubs and they might shut down the established groups, but they can't stop Anon. The biggest thing I see is the time between releases is slowed and not every show will be subbed. This sucks but can't be helped. The only other thing I can think for them to fight it is to start at the source. Get the people uploading the shows in Japan.(Which they have started to crack down on this a bit).

As for the U.S. resonding...eh, I see them doing something small, but as long as they have oil in their eyes, they won't put that much into it. But I am sure the above will happen. It was bound to happen sometime.

The biggest fear for me, as stated above, is that not every show will be subbed, which really sucks. Maybe the Japanese government's secret goal is to get many foreigners to move to Japan so they can continue to watch and read anime and manga. They would spend all their money there and pay taxes..lol.

If they start subbing EVERY single show and sending them over here, fine. IF not, **** off Japan.

HurricaneHige
2007-10-23, 23:18
Thats exactly my point tho, i mean we are all speculately the revenue lost from anime sales compare to extra product sales from fansubs

Think about it tho, those 500 or so DVDs, would u have bought all or most of those anime if you were not able to get it online? Would banning fansubs effectively convert most of ur collection into money in the studio's pocket? and what about the sales lost from viewers like me? will forcing overseas anime fans to buy license anime cover the lost sales from fansubs advertising?

Its not easy task to do that kind of research, in fact its pretty costly and i don't think anime studios by themselves will be willing to do the research, due to cost-benefit analysis, completely not feasible.

I understand the freeloader situation, but to be honest how many freeloader will be willing to buy anime equal or close to their current libaray if fansubs were to be banned? U cannot count those as lost sales since either way they will not be revenue to the studios.

Altema
2007-10-23, 23:23
I never said to count the whole collection as lost sales, but you can't disagree that there are a lost of sales within a sea of 500 DVDs. Keep in mind that one DVD holds a normal quality 26 episode series. Each DVD released holds how many eps? 3? 4?

My point is that if I had no other way to get anime, I probably would have purchased something by now.

The loss of revenue from viewers like you... question, do you believe that you are the majority of anime viewers or are you simply a small niche within the anime community? Because if it is the latter, the loss of revenue from you is irrelevant.

As for the cost of research, I don't know. I have never worked for the research department of a company, so I wouldn't know how much it costs to do such research.

Zaris
2007-10-23, 23:24
Why thank you. I didn't know my opinion was so atrocious that it needed fixing.

Altruistic as it sounds, people generally can be persuaded to pay for good products so long as that product is available. It's true with import cars and it's true with brand name clothing, games, and the restaurants you choose to dine in. Why not spend money on a business you wish to support? But like lots of commodities, if supply can't meet demand, demand finds its own ways - legal or not.

Fansubs is undelayed TV. Think about it. In the world of cable internet, satellite television, and supercars, people have this mentality to get whatever we want in the world where we want it as it happens. You need to revise a major marketing plan to suit this global audience, or fans will look elsewhere for their pleasures.

cicido
2007-10-23, 23:32
If people won't buy DVD with sub, don't expect them to buy DVD without it.
People who simply don't care about anime that much to buy it never will. At least some of them are still buying side products.
The Haruhi DVD in America was successful because of the simple plot summary they put at the back? I don't think so.

HurricaneHige
2007-10-23, 23:32
I never said to count the whole collection as lost sales, but you can't disagree that there are a lost of sales within a sea of 500 DVDs. Keep in mind that one DVD holds a normal quality 26 episode series. Each DVD released holds how many eps? 3? 4?

My point is that if I had no other way to get anime, I probably would have purchased something by now.

The loss of revenue from viewers like you... question, do you believe that you are the majority of anime viewers or are you simply a small niche within the anime community? Because if it is the latter, the loss of revenue from you is irrelevant.

As for the cost of research, I don't know. I have never worked for the research department of a company, so I wouldn't know how much it costs to do such research.

Truth be told, I dunno if viewers like me are the majority or minority or somewhere in between, thats the problem, i think nearly impossible to estimate these kind of thing without actually doing a survey, and i do not remember filling in any surveys that ask which group i belong in along with any of my DVD purchases.

Yes u would've purchased something by now, and so will many that owns similar libraries like yours. However, will that lot of u make up for the lost sales? we do not know since we do not have any means of estimating the size of each group. However, I understand that i am bias and that is y i think it will not cover the lost sales, since i would not have purchases some anime if i had not watched it previously on fansubs, and counting the lost of sales on anime-related products the lost of sales is pretty big compare to gains on recovered sales.

Believe it or not, the cost of market research is quite substantial, and i'm not being bias here. I do not believe that anime studios would go through with such an expense if they already held a strong belief that sales will go up with fansubs ban, which i think is foolish but it is probable. If they did do a research, it should be made public and that will increase the pressure on the US government to assist them, which of course is in favor of the studios. However, a simple "we lost 2billion dollars cuz of download" is completely garbage and my argument against that is in my previous post, as well as this one.

Altema
2007-10-23, 23:44
I'm willing to bet that you are the minority. Logically speaking, which is bound to be the majority? The group that gets free stuff or the group that spends money to get the stuff that could be free?

Vagrant0
2007-10-23, 23:47
There are still a ton of people though who will never spend a dime on anime, and that's the result of fansubbers.

If you want exposure, companies could enforce a preview where you can watch like the first three eps and then its up to you to buy or not. Allowing exposure through fansubs eliminates the market of people who might actually buy the product, but won't because of fansubs. Why do I need to buy a DVD of an anime when I have it all on fansubs?

I beg to differ, I didn't spend a dime on anime before I even knew fansubs existed. I simply didn't watch anime. Since I started getting more familiar with the form of media and the culture it reflects, I have not only spent money buying DVDs of series which I liked, but have spread word about anime I liked to others, which lead to even more sales. I may not have the budget to go buying every series I have seen, and I may have seen alot of horrible series, but just by being a participant in the market, and encouraging others to check out some of the good ones, I feel I'm doing more good than harm. It's essentially free advertizement for that series, and anime sales in general wouldn't be anything close to what it is like now without that aspect alive and well. Afterall, many people only get interested in anime because their friends are interested in anime. If all we had to go on was what ended up getting liscensed, and what local merchants decided to carry, we'd all still be watching DBZ and Pokemon... Dubbed.

Nevermind the fact that how well a fansubed series catches with people is a good indication of how likely that series is to be licensed. Or don't you think companies bother to look into those figures before taking the chance in buying the product? It's a live, unadulterated product test within the key demographic without personal cost... Any other industry would litterally kill for that sort of information.

HurricaneHige
2007-10-23, 23:48
But the group that is willing to pay for the free stuff if it no longer exist as free stuff might not be a majority, should keep that in mind.

Remember, this is not a necessity, one can simply move on to cheaper alternative means of entertainment.

HurricaneHige
2007-10-23, 23:51
I beg to differ, I didn't spend a dime on anime before I even knew fansubs existed. I simply didn't watch anime. Since I started getting more familiar with the form of media and the culture it reflects, I have not only spent money buying DVDs of series which I liked, but have spread word about anime I liked to others, which lead to even more sales. I may not have the budget to go buying every series I have seen, and I may have seen alot of horrible series, but just by being a participant in the market, and encouraging others to check out some of the good ones, I feel I'm doing more good than harm. It's essentially free advertizement for that series, and anime sales in general wouldn't be anything close to what it is like now without that aspect alive and well. Afterall, many people only get interested in anime because their friends are interested in anime. If all we had to go on was what ended up getting liscensed, and what local merchants decided to carry, we'd all still be watching DBZ and Pokemon... Dubbed.

Nevermind the fact that how well a fansubed series catches with people is a good indication of how likely that series is to be licensed. Or don't you think companies bother to look into those figures before taking the chance in buying the product? It's a live, unadulterated product test within the key demographic without personal cost... Any other industry would litterally kill for that sort of information.

Well..its not without personal cost, they lost sales on DVDs to freeloaders, thats their cost, but will the advertising help them boost their overseas sales enuf to breakeven with the loss, that is the question.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-23, 23:52
I think in the longer run, theyw ill loose money over this. We just won't buy as much because we wouldn't know if it is good or not. Another alternative is to learn Japanese..... Destroying fansubber sights is a lot easier than destroying P2P raws and such...

Altema
2007-10-23, 23:53
I heard a lot of "I" in what you've said Vagrant0. My statement still stands that a ton of people will still never spend a dime on anime.

You say you have done the industry good by word of mouth. Funny. Thats the same reasoning I used when I pirate photoshop, windows, and mp3s. I'm doing the company good because I give them advertisement by telling my friends how good so and so song/program/etc is.

You say that anime sales would not be what they are today without fansubs. If that's the case, why would ANYONE want stop something that made them money?

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-23, 23:54
They don't realize it. They are loosing money, but will they loose more if fan subs are gone?

That is question.

They will loose the sales of those who watch a show, then buy. No one will buy a show if they don't know if they will like it or not.

Altema
2007-10-23, 23:55
But the group that is willing to pay for the free stuff if it no longer exist as free stuff might not be a majority, should keep that in mind.

Remember, this is not a necessity, one can simply move on to cheaper alternative means of entertainment.

My statement wasn't really meant to be interpreted or analyzed. Its simple. If I have two lines, one line to get a free iphone and one line to pay for an iphone, which will be bigger?

Vagrant0
2007-10-23, 23:56
Also, buying a DVD can be a much better alternative to downloading it since you often get additional stuff along with the series. In some opinions, the additional artwork alone is worth the purchase price. There are also obvious image quality differences, downloaded anime is usually scaled down, and recorded from the TV, which leads to a poorer image quality and occasional glitches and distracting text indicating a local storm front. DVD versions are often higher picture quality, and hopefully don't include such things. While I would like to say that the subs are a bit better, I can't... But atleast you have an additional audio track so that you can see how bad the dub is, and occasionally have a commentary track which is gold in and of itself.

Altema
2007-10-23, 23:57
They don't realize it. They are loosing money, but will they loose more if fan subs are gone?

That is question.

They will loose the sales of those who watch a show, then buy. No one will buy a show if they don't know if they will like it or not.

Most people won't do something without properly researching and figuring out the consequences.

If a company issues a letter saying to stop, you can be sure they did a little homework.

HurricaneHige
2007-10-24, 00:00
Well thats a question that irrelevant to this discussion tho since free stuff will always be more attractive, but i dont think we are discussing that, are we?

Again, "homework" is done if benefit exceeds cost, if it doesn't then no statistically relevant "homework" will be done, plain and simple

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-24, 00:01
Well, now we are waiting on the U.S's response right?

Hate to say it like this, but hopefully they will continue to focus on dominating the world... and ignore things like this.

Altema
2007-10-24, 00:03
I was trying to logically show you that the anime group you are in is the minority while the group I am in is the majority. This was one of the major points you introduced in this discussion. You have harked upon the loss of sales from your group, but I am trying to show you, logically, that your group is the minority and loss of sales is not going to be a huge thing.

Altema
2007-10-24, 00:04
Also, buying a DVD can be a much better alternative to downloading it since you often get additional stuff along with the series. In some opinions, the additional artwork alone is worth the purchase price. There are also obvious image quality differences, downloaded anime is usually scaled down, and recorded from the TV, which leads to a poorer image quality and occasional glitches and distracting text indicating a local storm front. DVD versions are often higher picture quality, and hopefully don't include such things. While I would like to say that the subs are a bit better, I can't... But atleast you have an additional audio track so that you can see how bad the dub is, and occasionally have a commentary track which is gold in and of itself.

Totally subjective, but to each his and her own.

The DVD's are hardly worth it. I've seen some DVDs from my friends, and the extras hardly entertain me. Even though I watched the DVD's for free, I felt a bit cheated afterwards.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-24, 00:05
Twenty to thirty dollars is outrageous for 4-6 episodes per DVD.

HurricaneHige
2007-10-24, 00:06
Erm....you know...i watch fansubs too? and i'm sure i watch more than i buy...thats for sure.

However, i dont think u can get anime figures, and such for free, can you? those would not do as well as they are doing in North America if it wasn't fansubs, i think we can agree on that. Peeps that buy anime-related products due to fansubs i think outweighs the group that will buy part of their collection if fansubs are banned, this will be bias, just as ur view is since we do not have data on it.

Its almost like u think i only watch anime i buy....with the size of my library that will cost me well over $30000, not counting any anime related products, not to mention stuff that arnt even close to being license yet....

here's another thing, i highly doubt i would even think about purchasing anywhere close to that amount if fansubs were to be banned, and effectively and unbiasly u cannot count that as lost sales caused by Fansubs since i never would've bought it anyways

Kyuusai
2007-10-24, 00:07
Classic arguments aside, let's examine the potential repercussions of this: Likely nothing.

The MPAA and RIAA have been demanding the US government take action for many years. Decades, really, if you look back. And yet not much has been done. Why? Even with their lobbying power, though, they haven't been able to get around the fact that non-commercial copyright infringement is primarily the domain of civil, not criminal law.

Japanese companies already have the same civil court avenues open to them as US companies. Short of criminalizing all copyright infringement (which is discussed occasionally, but hasn't happened), then there's not much the US government is going to do. If they haven't done it yet to protect domestic corporate interests, why would they do it to protect foreign corporate interests?

Ultimately, yes, these are the whinings of a some (most certainly NOT all) of the industry in Japan as they refuse to adapt to a changing marketplace and instead respond by squeezing the consumer further. Sadly, Japanese lawmakers are even more firmly in the pocket of select corporate interest than US lawmakers are, but that evil (and I use the word sincerely) power doesn't extend outside their national borders.

Malintex_Terek
2007-10-24, 00:09
Sigh, I've been reading about this "trend" amongst capitalists in some recent Economics literature; their greed is so insatiable, they risk castrating themselves for a narrow-minded, short sighted promise of future profits.

Frankly, it couldn't come at a worse time in terms of arguing a case. The anime industry has NEVER BEEN BIGGER in America, true there are a ton of pirates but they might as well be blaming the R1 licensors for not shelling out enough to pay the R3 distributors. Why...? Because Japan's licensing fees for anime have increased tremendously over the years. What is it now, 30% of the actual production price on average? Let's not talk about how Japan's economy is finally looking bright for the first time in two decades.

Clearly, this is something that new PM is trying to steamroll just to look tough and frankly he's a moron for thinking it'll actually have sway, let alone impact sales toward the positive.

Vagrant0
2007-10-24, 00:12
My statement wasn't really meant to be interpreted or analyzed. Its simple. If I have two lines, one line to get a free iphone and one line to pay for an iphone, which will be bigger?

Yeah, more people will want what's free. That's just simple human nature. That however isn't how most fansubs work. Most fansubbing teams stop their torrents once a series has been liscensed. So it isn't a free line Vs. a pay line, it is a free line to test the product to see if people are willing to pay for it. Even if the free line isn't shut down when the pay line starts up, many people will assume that the free version will be of lower quality, or have some additional catch. There are adds everywhere for free stuff, that doesn't mean that you want to go clicking them. There's a catch with downloading liscensed anime... It may end up getting you arrested/fined. It's one thing to offer product testing, it's another to just blatently steal the product. It's the difference of liscense, and atleast around here, most people are familiar with the rules.

HurricaneHige
2007-10-24, 00:13
Sigh, I've been reading about this "trend" amongst capitalists in some recent Economics literature; their greed is so insatiable, they risk castrating themselves for a narrow-minded, short sighted promise of future profits.

Frankly, it couldn't come at a worse time in terms of arguing a case. The anime industry has NEVER BEEN BIGGER in America, true there are a ton of pirates but he might as well be blaming the R1 licensors for not shelling out enough to pay the R3 distributors. Why...? Because Japan's licensing fees for anime have increased tremendously over the years. What is it now, 30% of the actual production price on average? Let's not talk about how Japan's economy is finally looking bright for the first time in two decades.

Clearly, this is something that new PM is trying to steamroll just to look tough and frankly he's a moron for thinking it'll actually have sway, let alone impact sales toward the positive.

even though u put it so bluntly, i do agree that this move made by the studios is completely short-sighted

SeijiSensei
2007-10-24, 00:20
I own DVDs of Hollywood movies, and a few television shows, that I'm sure I could find torrents for if I looked for them. I chose to buy the movies and send some money to the producers.

I own CDs of music (including anime OSTs) that I'm sure I could find torrents for if I looked for them. I chose to buy the CDs and send some money to the producers.

I own DVDs of anime that I had already downloaded as torrents. I chose to buy the DVDs and send some money to the producers. Some of these I have yet to watch since I've seen the shows already, but I still felt the need to vote with my wallet.

I've also downloaded many shows that I've watched once and will never watch again. I don't intend to buy the DVDs for those shows. None of those constitute a "lost sale" since, without the fansubs, I wouldn't have known about those shows at all and thus wouldn't have bought them. When we're talking $100-200 for a complete series on DVD, it's simply too expensive a product to sample through purchasing blind. I don't really trust anime reviewers all that much so I don't see them as a reliable source of information on what shows I might like to own either.

Some shows I'd buy in an instant (e.g., Bartender), but they're not licensed in R1. I bought the OST instead.

I'd be happy to subscribe to a service where I'd get access to an array of anime shows if they were subtitled. I'd even be willing to pay something like $25/month for such a service. I'd be happy to watch anime on American television with commercials if they showed the types of programs I find appealing. Since my tastes generally run to less-popular shows like Bartender or Oh! Edo Rocket, I can't imagine that the shows I enjoy will ever be carried on mainstream television networks. (I've had ADV's AnimeNetwork available for some time now, but they never carry shows I want to see.)

For someone like me, the absence of fansubs would probably result in my spending less time on this hobby, and spending less (or even no) money on anime in any format.

As an aside, I suspect that the Japanese production companies are more concerned with anime being available in Japan than in overseas markets. If that's true, raws present a much greater threat to anime revenues than foreign-language fansubs.

In essence, I think it's disingenuous to point the finger at fansubs as the source of whatever revenue problems anime producers might be having. The producers have done little to make the enormous diversity of anime programming more available in foreign markets except via DVD sales, which are simply too expensive for most of the anime audience. Japanese viewers have the opportunity to sample shows on television before deciding whether to buy the DVDs. What options do those of us outside Japan have in this regard other than infringement?

Vagrant0
2007-10-24, 00:23
Totally subjective, but to each his and her own.

The DVD's are hardly worth it. I've seen some DVDs from my friends, and the extras hardly entertain me. Even though I watched the DVD's for free, I felt a bit cheated afterwards.

Ok, while not all extras are created equal, a real fan of the series or genere would feel differently. You too are being subjective. Are you even interested in anime? Or are you just having too much fun playing Devil's advocate?

Maybe I'm just an exception, but the whole reason why I watch a series, and mention it to others is because I want to see that series do well, and similar series be created. Not because anime is free entertainment, but because I appreciate the form of media, and want to see it more prevelant.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-24, 00:24
SeijiSensei

I think the companies have the view of tough shit for those of us outside of Japan.


Vagrant0


I like to watch the shows, but extra things don't interest me. I have never watched the same show twice either.

HurricaneHige
2007-10-24, 00:24
I own DVDs of Hollywood movies, and a few television shows, that I'm sure I could find torrents for if I looked for them. I chose to buy the movies and send some money to the producers.

I own CDs of music (including anime OSTs) that I'm sure I could find torrents for if I looked for them. I chose to buy the CDs and send some money to the producers.

I own DVDs of anime that I had already downloaded as torrents. I chose to buy the DVDs and send some money to the producers. Some of these I have yet to watch since I've seen the shows already, but I still felt the need to vote with my wallet.

I've also downloaded many shows that I've watched once and will never watch again. I don't intend to buy the DVDs for those shows. None of those constitute a "lost sale" since, without the fansubs, I wouldn't have known about those shows at all and thus wouldn't have bought them then either. When we're talking $100-200 for a complete series on DVD, it's simply too expensive a product to sample through purchasing blind.

Some of those shows I'd buy in an instant (e.g., Bartender), but they're not licensed in R1. I bought the OST instead.

I'd be happy to subscribe to a service where I'd get access to an array of anime shows if they were subtitled. I'd even be willing to pay something like $25/month for such a service. I'd be happy to watch anime on American television with commercials if they showed the types of programs I find appealing. Since my tastes generally run to less-popular shows like Bartender or Oh! Edo Rocket, I can't imagine that the shows I enjoy will ever be carried on mainstream television networks. (I've had ADV's AnimeNetwork available for some time now, but they never carry shows I want to see.)

For someone like me, the absence of fansubs would probably result in my spending less time on this hobby, and spending less (or even no) money on anime in any format.

As an aside, I suspect that the Japanese production companies are more concerned with anime being available in Japan than in overseas markets. If that's true, raws present a much greater threat to anime revenues than foreign-language fansubs.

In essence, I think it's disingenuous to point the finger at fansubs as the source of whatever revenue problems anime producers might be having. The producers have done little to make the enormous diversity of anime programming more available in foreign markets except via DVD sales, which are simply too expensive for most of the anime audience. Japanese viewers have the opportunity to sample shows on television before deciding whether to buy the DVDs. What options do those of us outside Japan have in this regard other than infringement?

While i agree with your point, but rite now it is the Japanese government asking America to stop their releases, meaning they r pointing their fingers to subs and not raws, since i dont think we get our raws from NA.

WhiteWings
2007-10-24, 00:34
Heck, if the japanese companies somehow manage to arrange something through all that mountains of legal issues to make it much easier to enforce copyrights then they better be taking care of other legal headaches like the non Original Generation Super Robot Wars games.

Aznbanana
2007-10-24, 00:40
Japan failed here.

therationalpi
2007-10-24, 00:42
Fansubs represent a gap in the marketplace, plain and simple. Economics tells us that a gap in the market will be filled by a black market if it becomes too large, and is left for too long.

What the Anime Studios are saying is that this black market is pulling buyers out of the legitimate market.

There are a few solutions to this problem, the one that the studios are suggesting is to legislate the problem away, crack down on the black market. Driving the cost up (Including the time and effort necesary to find the show), makes the fansubs less appealing, and may make it so the legit shows are a better deal. This works on the assumption that enough people would buy anime if fansubs were unavailable to make it worth the trouble for the studios.

The problem is that this shrinks the market, and really sidesteps the problem instead of facing it.

A better solution is to offer something to compete with the black market. For example, studio subbed anime, available online, for a reasonable fee or with advertising. The problem is, this comes at a high cost to the studio, who needs to find a partner to sub the anime and distribute it online. The distribution needs to be fast enough that it competes with fansubbers, and the quality needs to be just as good. Even more importantly, there needs to be value added so that it is "better" than the fansub. This can't be afforded by every studio, and even then is a questionable solution.

Fansubs are hard to compete with. They're free to buy. They're fast. They cost little to produce (the time of the subbers). They cost nothing to distribute.

To compete, and turn a profit, a studio sub would have to be...Cheap or have a very small amount of advertising. Just as fast (if not faster). Cost little to produce (the manhours of the subbers). Cost nothing to distribute (bittorrent-like distribution method). Offer some sort of added value over the free subs.

That's a hard ball to balance, if you ask me.

Moreover, the fansub groups all seem to be emotionally invested in the anime market. Licensed anime torrents are harder to find than unlicensed. Enough so, that if a series is licensed, it's a better plan just to buy it instead of wasting time looking for it online. The gap that fansubs fill is not the "I want anime but I'm broke"-gap so much as the "I want to watch the anime as it's released"-gap, or the "I want to watch this anime, but it's not licensed"-gap. It could also be said that fansubs fill the same gap that TV takes up. Removing advertising isn't a big deal because the studios don't get the ratings numbers for overseas anyway, and most ads are irrelevant outside of the market.

Altogether, I think it's a bad move to stop fansubs, and I really don't think that many will go for it.

bayoab
2007-10-24, 00:43
I never said to count the whole collection as lost sales, but you can't disagree that there are a lost of sales within a sea of 500 DVDs. Keep in mind that one DVD holds FANSUB a normal quality 26 episode series. Each DVD released holds how many eps? 3? 4? FIXED and at DVD quality, you can only fit between 4-6 episodes on a DVD depending on the show.

Frankly, it couldn't come at a worse time in terms of arguing a case. The anime industry has NEVER BEEN BIGGER in America, true there are a ton of pirates but they might as well be blaming the R1 licensors for not shelling out enough to pay the R3 distributors.
The anime bubble was the biggest point. It burst a few years ago.

Twenty to thirty dollars is WHAT YOU HAVE TO SELL IT FOR TO TRY AND PROFIT outrageous for 4-6 episodes per DVD.Remember, if you halve the price, the sales have to more than double.

SeijiSensei
2007-10-24, 00:44
While i agree with your point, but rite now it is the Japanese government asking America to stop their releases, meaning they r pointing their fingers to subs and not raws, since i dont think we get our raws from NA.

OK, let me elaborate a bit on that point.

The rise of sites like YouTube present an enormous problem for Japanese producers who were accustomed to having relatively complete control over the Japanese audience. Now it's possible for Japanese anime fans to watch shows on overseas streaming sites rather than purchasing DVDs. This poses a political problem for the producers since they don't have the same clout with foreign governments and companies as they do at home.

Fansubbing exacerbates this problem since a lot of the material available from sites like YouTube are uploaded fansubs. It's not a very big leap for the producers to conclude that reducing the availability of fansubs will make it harder for Japanese viewers to end-run the established domestic distribution channels by visiting streaming sites. So even efforts to curtail fansubbing can be seen as efforts to control access by Japanese viewers to anime programming.

As evidence for this proposition, I found it interesting that the Japanese music industry has been quite industrious in submitting take-down requests to YouTube.

DragoonKain3
2007-10-24, 00:56
The way I see it is this way...

Let's say we get 1000 anime fanatics who's interested in a certain series. Question begs...

a) how many bought the DVD series 'blind'
b) how many bought the DVD series because they saw the fansubs first
c) how many did not buy because they saw the fansubs and didn't like it, otherwise they would've bought it blind
d) how many did not buy the DVD because it's already free over the net, otherwise they would've bought it since that's the only way to get it
e) how many did not buy the DVD series because they don't have money in the first place, nor are willing to fork over the money

In essence, groups 'a' and 'b' are what makes DVD sales as of right now.

As for 'a', I believe they are the majority of the DVD sales. I reason this because fansub watchers hate dubs, yet dubs SELL. So who else buys the DVDs for dubs? Those who's never watched fansubs before, ie those who go 'blind'. They might have seen the cover and/or reviews about it, but that's it. And guess what? Fansubs don't do jack for these people either.

So I established that the majority of DVD sales aren't those who's watching fansubs in the first place (for arguements sake, lets say 70% of DVD sales, although anything over 50% will work as well). So with or without fansubs, they'll still have that base of sales. Even without fansubs, you won't convert any people from group 'e' to buy DVD sales, so these people aren't at all affected by the presence or absence of fansubs in terms of DVD sales.

Now here's the specualtion... Group 'b' are those who make up the rest of the sales. Question is, how many of Group 'b' will still buy DVDs if fansubs went kapoot and no other way of getting a 'preview' is available.? Most likely, next to none. So without fansubs, the might lose say 25% of their sales, and I think I'm being generous when saying they'll still keep 5% of sales due to some group 'b' members buying anime through DVDs because that's the only way to get them anymore.

That said, while group 'b' basically represents loss of sales through banning of fansubs, groups 'c' and 'd' are gain of sales through banning.

HOWEVER, group 'c', having bought the first dvd blind, wouldn't buy the rest of the series since they won't like it. So they'll for sure make up very little of the 25% lost, say maybe 1% total.

So it all comes down to group 'd' to make up the rest of the sales. The question is, how much sales would they gain from group 'd' in the case fansubs went kapoot? Would it be as much or more than the sales generated by fansubs through group 'b' people? It's anyone's guess, but I say, not a chance. But then again I'm biased, since I'm of group 'b'.


Maybe we should have a poll to see who's in what group.

Me? I'm in group 'b', though I only started this year, spending already a minimum of $5k already. If fansubs cease to exist, well, I have other hobbies I dropped because of anime that I can start again. So if they don't want my $6k+ a year, well, that's just fine with me.

Malintex_Terek
2007-10-24, 01:11
The anime bubble was the biggest point. It burst a few years ago.


2002 might have been the climax, but 2003 + 2004 + 2005 + 2006 + 2007 are comparably robust. I wasn't actually being specific with "NOW" but I meant compared with ten years ago.

Kamui4356
2007-10-24, 01:22
The way I see it is this way...

Let's say we get 1000 anime fanatics who's interested in a certain series. Question begs...

a) how many bought the DVD series 'blind'
b) how many bought the DVD series because they saw the fansubs first
c) how many did not buy because they saw the fansubs and didn't like it, otherwise they would've bought it blind
d) how many did not buy the DVD because it's already free over the net, otherwise they would've bought it since that's the only way to get it
e) how many did not buy the DVD series because they don't have money in the first place, nor are willing to fork over the money

In essence, groups 'a' and 'b' are what makes DVD sales as of right now.

As for 'a', I believe they are the majority of the DVD sales. I reason this because fansub watchers hate dubs, yet dubs SELL. So who else buys the DVDs for dubs? Those who's never watched fansubs before, ie those who go 'blind'. They might have seen the cover and/or reviews about it, but that's it. And guess what? Fansubs don't do jack for these people either.

So I established that the majority of DVD sales aren't those who's watching fansubs in the first place (for arguements sake, lets say 70% of DVD sales, although anything over 50% will work as well). So with or without fansubs, they'll still have that base of sales. Even without fansubs, you won't convert any people from group 'e' to buy DVD sales, so these people aren't at all affected by the presence or absence of fansubs in terms of DVD sales.

Now here's the specualtion... Group 'b' are those who make up the rest of the sales. Question is, how many of Group 'b' will still buy DVDs if fansubs went kapoot and no other way of getting a 'preview' is available.? Most likely, next to none. So without fansubs, the might lose say 25% of their sales, and I think I'm being generous when saying they'll still keep 5% of sales due to some group 'b' members buying anime through DVDs because that's the only way to get them anymore.

That said, while group 'b' basically represents loss of sales through banning of fansubs, groups 'c' and 'd' are gain of sales through banning.

HOWEVER, group 'c', having bought the first dvd blind, wouldn't buy the rest of the series since they won't like it. So they'll for sure make up very little of the 25% lost, say maybe 1% total.

So it all comes down to group 'd' to make up the rest of the sales. The question is, how much sales would they gain from group 'd' in the case fansubs went kapoot? Would it be as much or more than the sales generated by fansubs through group 'b' people? It's anyone's guess, but I say, not a chance. But then again I'm biased, since I'm of group 'b'.


Maybe we should have a poll to see who's in what group.

Me? I'm in group 'b', though I only started this year, spending already a minimum of $5k already. If fansubs cease to exist, well, I have other hobbies I dropped because of anime that I can start again. So if they don't want my $6k+ a year, well, that's just fine with me.

It seems there should be a few more groups, like people who watch anime on tv and will/will not buy because of it. Not to mention the numbers would vary for each series. Something with a lot of action might get a large portion of your group A, but something with more drama like AIR will likely have a larger portion of group b.

Group c can be considered non buyers, since they won't get more than 1 dvd.

Group d are the big problem, but we have no idea how large it is.

Group e is completely irrelevant to the issue since they wouldn't buy anything either way.

-CaliphLysius-
2007-10-24, 02:14
Sigh, I've been reading about this "trend" amongst capitalists in some recent Economics literature; their greed is so insatiable, they risk castrating themselves for a narrow-minded, short sighted promise of future profits.

Frankly, it couldn't come at a worse time in terms of arguing a case. The anime industry has NEVER BEEN BIGGER in America, true there are a ton of pirates but they might as well be blaming the R1 licensors for not shelling out enough to pay the R3 distributors. Why...? Because Japan's licensing fees for anime have increased tremendously over the years. What is it now, 30% of the actual production price on average? Let's not talk about how Japan's economy is finally looking bright for the first time in two decades.

Clearly, this is something that new PM is trying to steamroll just to look tough and frankly he's a moron for thinking it'll actually have sway, let alone impact sales toward the positive.

Simple economics states that a larger market share does not necessarily correspond to higher profits for an industry, as it depends on the equilibrium price of the good on the market.

Guess what, the availability of FREE fansubs WILL devalue anime, such that the equilibrium price per unit (or expected revenue per "unit" sold) will be lower than if fansubs did not exist.

Put simpler, let's consider two groups in the population market for anime in North America.

Group A legally purchases the anime that they watch.
Group B only watches free fansubs.
Each DVD sold generates S in revenue, such that the total revenue for the anime industry from DVD sales is S * A

In a world where fansubs did not exist, we would see a decrease in the size of Group A, since I will concede that there does exist a group of individuals who utilize free fansubs as exposure material for future anime that they may purchase. We'll call this decrease "P", for previewers.

The intermediate population that purchases DVDs is not A - P, with total revenue S * (A - P).

However, the number of DVD purchases is also expected to see a new influx of individuals, from a subsection of the previous Group B, call this group N, for "new buyers.

The new population who buys DVDs is thus A - P + B. We can clearly see that if B is greater than P, the anime industry will be bringing in more money than if fansubs DID exist, despite the overall smaller population of anime watchers.

Nicholi
2007-10-24, 02:19
So after reading this (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-10-23/japan-asks-america-to-stop-illegal-net-releases-of-anime)...are all the truly ethical little boys and girls going to stop fansubbing now? Since it has finally been said in simple terms "we do not want you distributing our content". At least plainly stated for those living in the US, if you somehow think Japan is just fine with sharing their content elsewhere. Is AnimeSuki going to heed the Japanese government's message, or does it only respect the wishes of individual studios when they send out mean emails :P?

I think I have said this before...eventually there will come a time when Japanese copyright holders will be able to send C&D threats which won't be harmless letters from a foreign country. Communication and good relations between officials will only increase with time. We all know fansubbing is against the law because it involves simply ignoring the rights of the owners of the content. Have any of you seriously asked for permission to fansub a series? I wonder if any studios would say yes...maybe even give some additional support to boost foreign interest (thus licensing :)). Nono, working together is bad, we should just do whatever the fuck we want and pretend no one owns the rights to the show...wait no, the fans own it! There do seem to be a few weirdos out there, pretending it's all ok because they don't live in Japan and everything will be fine for eternity.

Most unfortunate seems to be the old adage that so long as fansubbers drop series when they are licensed in their countries of origin, "Japan" will give a slight approving nod and let them be. Doesn't seem to be the case. So what now o' ethical fansubbers (and normal ones as well)...what will you do now? Why are we still pretending everything is fine as long as the show is unlicensed in country X. Will you make a move, or wait for the inevitable. Thieverizing is thieverizing to me :3, I could care less.

Start your post off with "In a bleak future..." and make your predictions of what is to come, if anything is to change at all. Rebel fansubbers fighting with lasers (pewpew), giant mecha terrorizing the land, zombies!!, or high schoolers with sekrat powers which are saving the world from copyright destruction. Or just make a normal reply and pretend you can still fansub and be righteous n_n.

Vexx
2007-10-24, 02:34
Offer me japanese (or any other country's) channels to my home... and then I'll talk.
Until then, I don't spend a dime on DVDs unless I've seen the broadcast series via fansub or raw. Every anime DVD I own was a result of seeing the aired version on fansubs (over four thousand dollars at this point).

Secondary problem: the number of anime series that *never* get licensed. Again, a failure to address the market. "On demand" DVD pressings are affordable if someone would offer them. No one does.

I kept my VHS recordings of Animaniacs for almost 10 years while Warner suits argued over who would get which 1/10% before they released them on DVD. 2 tubs of the stuff. Offer me a legal way to watch any broadcast anime I'm interested in so that I can determine which ones I'll buy the "improved/enhanced" DVDs of ... and I won't *need* fansubs anymore.

And just like some people watch broadcast anime in Japan and never buy the DVDs... some people here will watch anime and never buy DVDs. duh.... I guess those japanese people are "stealing" too (to use the industry illogic).

Potatochobit
2007-10-24, 02:42
the biggest flaw with the current industry "and also why they are not making money" is that they rely solely on DVD purchases, outside of japan.

and most television networks will not carry anime, with good reason.

the production quality is low and the overhead cost is high, so fixing the system is not relatively easy.

news like this relatively means nothing though. the US is always pestering China to stop the pirating of microsoft and hollywood products.

Malintex_Terek
2007-10-24, 02:49
Guess what, the availability of FREE fansubs WILL devalue anime, such that the equilibrium price per unit (or expected revenue per "unit" sold) will be lower than if fansubs did not exist.


lol wut? Assuming the "dub market" and the "sub market" (n. - people who don't know fansubs v. those who do) seriously overlap, maybe. But that's an unlikely case. You might as well be talking about free cigars in Cuba is somehow affecting quantity demand of cigars in the United States when the two markets barely interact at all.

Kyuu
2007-10-24, 02:51
LOL, with what? Hell, the US has bases in Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Tokyo, Osaka....the US military makes up a portion of defense against (Not trying to start anything) China.

Didn't you know? Japan has a hidden stock pile of Gundams somewhere. Probably within Mt. Fuji.

b0nk
2007-10-24, 02:55
Well for one thing why is Japan targeting only the US, it seems really unfair to assume we are the cause of their losses. Most of the fansubbers in the groups I work for are mostly from european nations or asian countries like a fraction are in the US. Another thing is the most of the groups BT trackers aren't hosted in the US but in fact they are located in europe and asia.

I don't think anything will change in fact if they do decide to pursue with legal action the fansubbers will go "underground" and every release will be anonymous. Maybe releasing in IRC only like in the old days. People will find a way to get them eventually.

They are aiming in the wrong direction, if they really wanted to lessen the fansubs they should aim at the raw cappers and the p2p programs like share and winny. If they find a way to shut down the raw distributers then that would really hurt subbers more than threats sent to a specific nation.

But I don't think we should face legal action for making a logo or styling a karaoke on a fansub. Since we're just adding content that was not there to begin with.

aohige
2007-10-24, 03:12
Didn't you know? Japan has a hidden stock pile of Gundams somewhere. Probably within Mt. Fuji.

LIES!

We don't hide them in mountains... they are displayed out in the open for all to see in the quiet countryside of Okayama! :D
http://bitter.swee.to/gundam.html
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1354/zg13oq2.jpghttp://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7361/zg6gx4.jpg

Vexx
2007-10-24, 03:21
Just point me to the Sky Girls academy :)

@b0nk: be careful about falling into the "argument framing trap".... so far no losses have been established because the few *real* studies on this sort of thing (e.g. music/movie industry) that *have* been done have had mixed findings. You haven't lost a sale to someone who would never spend money on it in the first place. You *do* lose sales when you treat your paying customers like criminals or don't allow them to get the same preview of the product that your domestic audience gets. On the other hand, you do lose money when someone who would have bought the R1 DVDs gets them off of Internet rips. I'm not defending that crowd at all.

bayoab
2007-10-24, 03:40
Read what this is again:

The Japanese government issued a formal statement of requests to the government of the United States on regulatory reform and market competition policy on October 18, and included a request for the United States to help stop the unauthorized reproduction and distribution of Japanese animation online. Specifically, the formal statement mentions the spread of Japanese animation and other materials on video-sharing sites and peer-to-peer file-sharing networks.

This is a single PARAGRAPH in a 52 page document regarding the prevalence of anime on video sites and p2p areas. The word anime appears once and only once in the entire document. This seems more like a strongly worded version of "if you haven't guessed, we really don't like our stuff on youtube/etc and we want something done about it because it isn't going away." The magnitude of this is being extremely exaggerated by some people.

Potatochobit
2007-10-24, 04:26
Well for one thing why is Japan targeting only the US


because we have money


lots of it


Japan's electronics economy is very very dependent on the US

WanderingKnight
2007-10-24, 07:57
Am I the only one seeing this as merely a measure out of simple protocol and not really important to them? Knowing that the US is the most important "fighter against copyright infringement", including something like that in a 50-page long request seems kind of fitting. I really really don't think they are worried at all--Japanese anime historically owes its success outside the island's borders to fansubs, and it keeps on happening, so I'm sure most studios understand that.

And, as always, pirates shall exist, lest the world wishes to be completely destroyed due to global warming. Arrr!

Vexx
2007-10-24, 08:52
Bayoab and WanderingKnight are correct... this is, like, a few words in a huge document already full of armwaving platitudes (I rtfd'd).

Makes me think the OP's "news source" was just trolling for excitement, hits and controversy.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-24, 10:17
Didn't you know? Japan has a hidden stock pile of Gundams somewhere. Probably within Mt. Fuji.

Gundams would mince -meat in real life with today's technology. A few missles from an aircraft and they are down. They wouldn't have 'energy shields'..lol I can't belive I am getting serious about this..

Well, I figured a long time ago the future of fansubs was not bright, it was just a matter of time. As for how this will affect us immediatly, I doubt the US will do anything at the moment. As I said, the US government is focused on spreading democracy across the world, briging peace to war torn nations, blah, blah,blah. The first thing I see done is the established fan sub sites and distributtion sites being shut down, anime suki, shinsen subs, etc. Anon will still sub of course because Anon is many and none..lol. But I doubt Anon could take on the entire show market. The biggest thing I see happening if something is done right away is not every show will be subbed anymore, just major ones. Which sucks as the kinds I like are usually the ones no on pays attention to except like one group.

As for those saying until they license every show, or send channels for anime from Japan, you will watch fansubs, I think Japan's view on you is tough shit. You don't live here, you are not a Japanese citizen, we don't owe you any show.

The future does look dark for fan subs, and when they are finally all brought down, I guess I will have to focus on another hobby of mine. Until then,

http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf


:D


Or we could all learn Japanese. They are targeting fansubs because most of them have established sites and such, they can actually rbing those down(OiNK). But
P2P is much, much harder to shut down. RAWs will still be leaked, it is just will there be fan subbers to sub them. We learn Japanese, we cut out the middle man, lol.

Altema
2007-10-24, 10:37
Ok, while not all extras are created equal, a real fan of the series or genere would feel differently. You too are being subjective. Are you even interested in anime? Or are you just having too much fun playing Devil's advocate?

Maybe I'm just an exception, but the whole reason why I watch a series, and mention it to others is because I want to see that series do well, and similar series be created. Not because anime is free entertainment, but because I appreciate the form of media, and want to see it more prevelant.

What defines a real fan? From what I get from reading in between your lines, a REAL fan would feel differently towards the extras. I don't believe that being part of a fan is to be completely blind to what is good and what is bad, which is basically what you are saying to me.

Yes, I am interested in anime. I'd say I'm more interested than most people here. I also do love to play devils advocate though. I just feel that the opinions I usher here are the opinion of the majority of anime viewers. It's just that in an anime forum, it will seem like the majority of users here are the type that watch fansubs and goes out to buy loads of anime goods.

You are not an exception in spreading the word, but the end result is that it causes a similar effect to pirating. You want the series to do well, but if whoever you tell about the series decides to download the fansubs, it does not really help the people who made it.

FIXED and at DVD quality, you can only fit between 4-6 episodes on a DVD depending on the show.

You didn't really have to fix that. It should have been apparent that I was talking about normal quality fansub releases, not normal quality DVDs that are released on the shelves. I'm pretty sure anime users have the intelligence to figure out that one DVD is not going to hold 26 episodes of a real DVD quality series. Most anime fans have probably tried to burn a series on DVD in one time or another. That and I'm sure they've gone to the store to buy a DVD and seen that the DVD only has 4-6 episodes.

Simple economics states that a larger market share does not necessarily correspond to higher profits for an industry, as it depends on the equilibrium price of the good on the market.


Too bad simple economics is only useful for describing simple things. The markets in question are not easily analyzed by using economic models or economic ideas. Economics is by no means an accurate description of equilibrium/profit/etc.

the.Merines
2007-10-24, 11:34
blahblahalotofpointlessrantingdeleted

I still don't think the article is pointing directly at fansubs, but rather streaming video sites.

Mad Dog
2007-10-24, 11:38
Just point me to the Sky Girls academy :)

Ditto :D lol

bayoab
2007-10-24, 11:40
I'm pretty sure anime users have the intelligence to figure out that one DVD is not going to hold 26 episodes of a real DVD quality series. Most anime fans have probably tried to burn a series on DVD in one time or another. That and I'm sure they've gone to the store to buy a DVD and seen that the DVD only has 4-6 episodes.
You would be amazed at how many times someone posts something to the effect of:
"Why do DVDs only have 4-6 episodes on them!!! I can fit (some absurd number) on the ones I burn!!!!!!!" or "The anime companies are trying to rip us off by only putting 5 episodes on a disc."

What percentage of anime fans watch dubs exclusively, and why are they being catered to while other fans wait patiently and/or download illegal fansubs?Obviously, because they are larger than just a simple majority and the ones who really bring in the money. (Estimated anywhere between 70 and 90% of DVD sales are to dub watchers.) If sub watchers actually bought more product, we might actually have a bigger voice. If people really bought stuff and discontinued passing around shows, Japan wouldn't be complaining.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-24, 11:43
Well, it is illegal, our arguing won't change that. We knew it was illegal long ago. The question is, will the United States actually help them in stopping fan subs and video sharing sites. And that question is not if, but more of when.

Altema
2007-10-24, 11:48
You would be amazed at how many times someone posts something to the effect of:
"Why do DVDs only have 4-6 episodes on them!!! I can fit (some absurd number) on the ones I burn!!!!!!!" or "The anime companies are trying to rip us off by only putting 5 episodes on a disc."

Yeah, you are right about that.

Malintex_Terek
2007-10-24, 11:56
Well for one thing why is Japan targeting only the US, it seems really unfair to assume we are the cause of their losses. Most of the fansubbers in the groups I work for are mostly from european nations or asian countries like a fraction are in the US. Another thing is the most of the groups BT trackers aren't hosted in the US but in fact they are located in europe and asia.


US is a huge foreign market. Using one, albeit unusual example, Haruhi DVD #1 sold 80K units in Japan. It sold 60K units in America, 3/4 of the amount. With virtually no promotion whatsoever, and little to no mainstream appeal. And we don't even have hardcore "otaku" like across the pond.

cyth
2007-10-24, 12:42
Maybe I'm just an exception, but the whole reason why I watch a series, and mention it to others is because I want to see that series do well, and similar series be created. Not because anime is free entertainment, but because I appreciate the form of media, and want to see it more prevelant.This is the kind of positive spirit a fan should have. Buying DVDs and merchandise is, in my opinion, an inevitable consequence of that.FIXED and at DVD quality, you can only fit between 4-6 episodes on a DVD depending on the show.You can fit a lot more than just 6 episodes; just lower the video bitrate. Personally, I think anything above 4 eps/DVD isn't exactly healthy for your video experience. 3 eps/DVD is the best compromise between quality video and long term affordability that I can think of.a) how many bought the DVD series 'blind'

As for 'a', I believe they are the majority of the DVD sales. I reason this because fansub watchers hate dubs, yet dubs SELL.The trend among the U.S. licensing companies is now leaning towards cutting out English dubbing for low profile shows. Dubbing is simply too expensive for shows that will most likely have poor sales performance. The majority of niché titles that don't get dubs may not be bad properties at all, the licensing companies just have a different demographic in mind for them. A good deal of niché anime watchers watch fansubs already who don't mind subtitles. As it was said before, target demographics differ from title to title.Most unfortunate seems to be the old adage that so long as fansubbers drop series when they are licensed in their countries of origin, "Japan" will give a slight approving nod and let them be. Doesn't seem to be the case. So what now o' ethical fansubbers (and normal ones as well)...what will you do now? Why are we still pretending everything is fine as long as the show is unlicensed in country X. Will you make a move, or wait for the inevitable. Thieverizing is thieverizing to me :3, I could care less.I hate to break this to you, but making a case against "ethical" fansubbers sounds like a broken record that should've crashed a few years ago.the biggest flaw with the current industry "and also why they are not making money" is that they rely solely on DVD purchases, outside of japan.Only one part of the Japanese animation industry heavily relies on outsourcing. Those are the bigshot companies like GHD and Production I.G. Tiny production commitees or moderately big companies like Geneon and MediaWorks own rights to many titles that were expected to perform positively, already within Japan.Makes me think the OP's "news source" was just trolling for excitement, hits and controversy.It's what they do best. n_nYes, I am interested in anime. I'd say I'm more interested than most people here. I also do love to play devils advocate though. I just feel that the opinions I usher here are the opinion of the majority of anime viewers. It's just that in an anime forum, it will seem like the majority of users here are the type that watch fansubs and goes out to buy loads of anime goods.How mistaken you are. Eh, I just deleted a good chunk of my response to you because I'm sure you'll change your opinion at a certain point. :)

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-24, 12:59
So what are the short term consequences of this move? What will we see in the next few months I wonder.

WanderingKnight
2007-10-24, 13:09
Makes me think the OP's "news source" was just trolling for excitement, hits and controversy.
Oh, I should have known better (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=69349).

Nothing to see here, move along. The troll has already fulfilled its purpose anyways.

cyth
2007-10-24, 13:14
Oh, I should have known better (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=69349).We were both refering to the OP's "news source" though. ;)

WanderingKnight
2007-10-24, 13:16
We were both refering to the OP's "news source" though. ;)Yeah, well, it's all the same. A new account with no posts creates a thread touching a controversial subject and linking to a sensationalist article... *yawn*.

cyth
2007-10-24, 13:23
Yeah, well, it's all the same. A new account with no posts creates a thread touching a controversial subject and linking to a sensationalist article... *yawn*.I actually wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the ANN editors himself/herself. :uhoh:

Altema
2007-10-24, 13:45
How mistaken you are. Eh, I just deleted a good chunk of my response to you because I'm sure you'll change your opinion at a certain point. :)

No, my opinion is fairly solid. I don't remember wavering in any of my statements. If you feel that I have been changing my opinion, please indicate where. :(

I'm also not mistaken in my comments. I have heard so many people on these forums say that thanks to fansubs, they have gone out and purchased DVDs/figurines/etc. Yet when talking to people in school, clubs etc, I find a striking lack of such actions.

My point n mentioning forums is that it should be obvious to me that the majority of people here would have watched fansubs then proceeded to buy anime paraphernalia. This is an anime forum and the most hardcore of hardcore fans gather at forums. I doubt that the majority of anime viewers are comprised of these hardcore fans that buy things after they see them.

Man, on a side note, this thread is probably one of the hardest things to argue. It's such a logical battle and my side is difficult to defend :(.

WanderingKnight
2007-10-24, 13:57
I'm also not mistaken in my comments. I have heard so many people on these forums say that thanks to fansubs, they have gone out and purchased DVDs/figurines/etc. Yet when talking to people in school, clubs etc, I find a striking lack of such actions. Man, fansubs and hardcore fans are _the_ reason why anime ever got (formally) out of Japan. Without them, there would have been no western anime industry as we know it today... and I'm sure most companies know it. If they really wanted to pull down fansubbers, they would've done so a long time ago. Anime is just a small niche in the whole realm of internet "piracy", and as such, it's easier to destroy.

JustInn14
2007-10-24, 13:59
So does that mean we can't watch anime on the computer anymore?!!?!!?!?!?! ;'(

Altema
2007-10-24, 14:03
I'll just agree with you, WanderingKnight.

I don't want to add anything that may result in more expansive discussion. I've already lost what the heck I am debating, lol :(.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-24, 15:09
I forgot what you all were debating as well. All I wanted to try and figure out is the repercussions. But it seems we all did over react a little.

Slice of Life
2007-10-24, 15:29
Oh, I should have known better (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=69349).

Nothing to see here, move along. The troll has already fulfilled its purpose anyways.

:D Kudos to Tony K. or whoever has been pulling the strings here for generating such a storm in the little teacup that is our forum.

cyth
2007-10-24, 15:38
I'm also not mistaken in my comments. I have heard so many people on these forums say that thanks to fansubs, they have gone out and purchased DVDs/figurines/etc. Yet when talking to people in school, clubs etc, I find a striking lack of such actions.I'll agree that anime forums have a bigger share of passionate anime fans who not only leech but purchase their anime as well, however I wouldn't be so quick to say those people constitute a majority. "Many" - yes, majority - no. I'd say we're still pretty in minority.

Most fans I've come across were, despite watching fansubs, very casual fans who'd buy anime if they could get it in a store near them. I'm one of the few I know from my miserable country who imports otaku goods on a regular basis. Everything in life has to do with priorities. An overwhelming majority of the people I know simply don't prioritize anime as much as I do, so I set a few personal standards in regards to what it means to be a passionate fan.

Many people look for excuses when it comes to purchasing otaku goodies of their favorite anime shows. My personal red thin line between a casual fan and a passionate fan would be when you start asking yourself "How/Where can I get more?"

おしまい

Siegel Clyne
2007-10-24, 16:37
News FLASH! (http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/5217/up213522dx8.jpg) Article in the September 4, 2007 (http://www.mainichi.co.jp/syuppan/economist/news/20070827-144701.html) Issue of Economist, a Japanese Weekly Business Magazine Published by THE MAINICHI NEWSPAPERS

Up to now, the business model for animation (anime) usually was securing fans with television broadcasting, and recouping production costs with DVD sales.

For the past 1-2 years, however, DVD sales have been sluggish, and the number of works that can clear the line -- a series average of 10,000 copies is referred to as a break-even point -- has decreased.

Besides the spread of the hard disc recorder in which one can enjoy high resolution images comparable to the average DVD at home, there is also rampant downloading off the Net.

Also, television time slots for children's animation (kodomo no anime) are becoming less popular, and the trend for animation (anime) telecasts continues to shift from prime time (golden time) to late night, from key commercial television stations to UHF television stations and BS [broadcasting satellite] / CS [communications satellite] broadcasts.

If broadcast time slots for animation (anime) on key commercial television stations continue to decrease this fall, then opportunities for animation (anime) to reach wide audiences will keep decreasing.

GDH president Ishikawa Shin'ichirou says, "The animation (anime) business faces a transition period similar to the time when the music business shifted from CD sales to Internet delivery."

How does the anime industry adapt to changing markets?

bayoab
2007-10-24, 16:53
US is a huge foreign market. Using one, albeit unusual example, Haruhi DVD #1 sold 80K units in Japan. It sold 60K units in America, 3/4 of the amount. With virtually no promotion whatsoever, and little to no mainstream appeal. And we don't even have hardcore "otaku" like across the pond.
These numbers were disproven by people with access to Nielsen and Oricon numbers by the way. The Japanese numbers are half that. The American numbers are at best half.

SeijiSensei
2007-10-24, 18:01
If broadcast time slots for animation (anime) on key commercial television stations continue to decrease this fall, then opportunities for animation (anime) to reach wide audiences will keep decreasing.

Suppose this has anything to do with what I perceive as a substantial narrowing of the diversity of series available this fall? Most series in the current season seem targeted to a rather narrow audience of younger male otaku.

GDH president Ishikawa Shin'ichirou says, "The animation (anime) business faces a transition period similar to the time when the music business shifted from CD sales to Internet delivery."
How does the anime industry adapt to changing markets?

Was there any indication in the article that Ishikawa-sama thought that anime might follow the same path toward Internet delivery? I'd answer your question by saying that, if the domestic audience is shrinking, the industry needs to think about how to expand its reach into the overseas audience.

BTW, what is GDH?

Altema
2007-10-24, 18:04
I'll agree that anime forums have a bigger share of passionate anime fans who not only leech but purchase their anime as well, however I wouldn't be so quick to say those people constitute a majority. "Many" - yes, majority - no. I'd say we're still pretty in minority.

Most fans I've come across were, despite watching fansubs, very casual fans who'd buy anime if they could get it in a store near them. I'm one of the few I know from my miserable country who imports otaku goods on a regular basis. Everything in life has to do with priorities. An overwhelming majority of the people I know simply don't prioritize anime as much as I do, so I set a few personal standards in regards to what it means to be a passionate fan.

Many people look for excuses when it comes to purchasing otaku goodies of their favorite anime shows. My personal red thin line between a casual fan and a passionate fan would be when you start asking yourself "How/Where can I get more?"

おしまい

Can't really disagree with that.

I like how you wrote the end at the end :). It was nice.

Aoie_Emesai
2007-10-24, 18:49
Yada yada yada, it won't stop it.

Sasuke_Bateman
2007-10-24, 19:02
I'll steal Anime illegally.

X10A_Freedom
2007-10-24, 19:40
I get the impression anime DVD sales are quite poor in Japan itself. Looking at figures, the 10,000 figure seems hard to break for most anime DVDs. It means less than 10,000 individuals from a country with millions of people buy a particular DVD. Dare I say it means only the otaku buy them anyway?

I also reckon it's only people with very high interest in anime sign up to forums like this and therefore we have a relatively high proportion of people here who actually get DVDs. An ordinary person simply will not buy anime DVDs and I doubt blocking fansubs would make any positive difference. I would think it's actually a negative thing because the stoppage of fansubs actually blocks the "people with high interest" viewing the anime and if good, getting the DVDs.

I personally think the DVDs are overpriced (well, not exactly considering the length) but it's hard for people to fork out a huge lump sum of money in one go. I would also think the demand for DVDs is quite price inelastic, because of anime being non-mainstream (thus DVDs are only marketable to die-hard Otaku), even in Japan*.




*An adult who watches anime (with the exception of some films) in Japan is frowned upon - and ironically, it's only working adults who can afford anime DVDs. Students - part time work only pays 1000yen an hour, nowhere near enough to collect a whole series.

psycho bolt
2007-10-24, 20:10
Whatever, the government message is here is that they care about $$. Fansubs guys can close distribution so they get profit. While this maybe can work, I still get a feeling that they don't really care about Anime Fans outside Japan who can't get daily anime shows Japan are getting. That is the thing that kinda hurts us for being fans.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-24, 21:36
As I said, the production companies have a tough shit for people outside of Japan outlook.

NoSanninWa
2007-10-24, 22:53
BTW, what is GDH?

GDH (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1279) is a production company.

cyth
2007-10-25, 03:21
An adult who watches anime (with the exception of some films) in Japan is frowned upon - and ironically, it's only working adults who can afford anime DVDs. Students - part time work only pays 1000yen an hour, nowhere near enough to collect a whole series.I work part-time and I get less than that an hour. Bottom line: It is enough if you know where your priorities lie. Can't have everything in life though, that's for sure.

Siegel Clyne
2007-10-25, 04:17
I get the impression anime DVD sales are quite poor in Japan itself. Looking at figures, the 10,000 figure seems hard to break for most anime DVDs. It means less than 10,000 individuals from a country with millions of people buy a particular DVD. Dare I say it means only the otaku buy them anyway?


With exceptions like Studio Ghibli animated works and certain theatrical and direct to video animated features, Japanese and non-Japanese, it seems pretty much that way.

Some Japanese posters at 2ch were puzzled by the 10,000 figure too. Many late night anime series have received another season even though their average sales per DVD (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=796086), according to Oricon, fell below 10,000 (e.g., ARIA {twice}), sometimes well below (e.g., Jigoku Shoujo {Hell Girl).

(Jigoku Shoujo reportedly drew very good late night television household audience ratings in the Kansai region of Japan {Osaka, Kyoto, Kobe, etc.}, which may have helped it get a second season.)

One 2ch poster then said that the 10,000 figure applies to DVD shipments to retail stores, rental shops, etc. - not to DVD sales by individual customers.

DVD shipments technically count as DVD sales, so Bandai Namco can claim that Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu (The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya) sold over 800,000 DVDs in Japan (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-09-27/haruhi-psp-adventure-game's-promotional-movie-posted) - that is, Haruhi shipped over 800,000 DVDs to stores in Japan which sell and rent DVDs.

"Over 800,000 DVDs sold" (DVD shipments) sounds much more impressive than "over 320,000 DVDs sold" (Oricon sales data).

I also reckon it's only people with very high interest in anime sign up to forums like this and therefore we have a relatively high proportion of people here who actually get DVDs. An ordinary person simply will not buy anime DVDs and I doubt blocking fansubs would make any positive difference. I would think it's actually a negative thing because the stoppage of fansubs actually blocks the "people with high interest" viewing the anime and if good, getting the DVDs.


A recent post (http://www.animeondvd.com/forum/showpost.php?pid/555230/) on the Anime On DVD forums by John Sirabella, president of Media Blasters (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=7), has interesting things to say about this.

As far as downloads, can anyone tell you the number of households in the USA that have access to a computer and than access to the internet? Much smaller than you think...the actual percentage now of anime fans who do is higher than the national percentage, but it is not enough to impact sales as it has.

Truth be told it is the casual viewer who is carrying the market currently as the sales data shows it...they do not download as these titles are not important enough for that to them...

The anime collector long left this market many many years ago and has been replaced with a younger casual viewer with less spending income and grows out of it much more quickly than before...just go to con and look at them...more interested in costumes and headbands than the show...more interested in learning that annoying haruhi dance than care about the show...the collectors are long gone.


I personally think the DVDs are overpriced (well, not exactly considering the length) but it's hard for people to fork out a huge lump sum of money in one go. I would also think the demand for DVDs is quite price inelastic, because of anime being non-mainstream (thus DVDs are only marketable to die-hard Otaku), even in Japan*.




*An adult who watches anime (with the exception of some films) in Japan is frowned upon - and ironically, it's only working adults who can afford anime DVDs. Students - part time work only pays 1000yen an hour, nowhere near enough to collect a whole series.

Tri-ring
2007-10-25, 04:44
Japanese anime DVD sales is like a Chicken and egg situation.
The main sales of anime DVD(and/or DVD in general for that matter) actually lays at Tsutaya or rental shop since the price of these DVD are usually over priced.
DVD with three or four episodes for 40~50 dollars US?
Come on I can get the whole season of SG-1 for that price at B&N or Amazon.
The reason why they are over priced here in Japan is because not many buy DVD but prefer to rent them. Rental shops base their over night prices depending on the original price of the DVD so demands the production houses to price them at outrageous prices. Since their is not enough sales, without rental houses cooperation they give into those outrageous pricing.
It is a vicious cycle.

My recommendation to the Japanese production houses is to cooperate with Fan-sub groups to remove the fan-subs out of circulation once the DVD in Japan is place on sales in return for usage of sub-titles developed by the fan-sub groups into the DVDs in all region form and provide them at a fair price. This way all groups benefits.
I think additional compensation package can be placed into terms with advertisement of the DVDs at fan-sub sites in return can also be worked out.

Kyero Fox
2007-10-25, 07:18
If its good enough I'll buy it =\

cyth
2007-10-25, 09:36
Some Japanese posters at 2ch were puzzled by the 10,000 figure too. Many late night anime series have received another season even though their average sales per DVD (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=796086), according to Oricon, fell below 10,000 (e.g., ARIA {twice}), sometimes well below (e.g., Jigoku Shoujo {Hell Girl).All this just means that the 10,000 copy "break-even point" is an overstated generalization, and that success in sales figures difers from property to property, production commitee to production commitee, and so on.

By the way, R2 DVD sales revenue of Japanese anime are up (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-10-18/half-year-anime-dvd-sales) overall by 15% from last year, according to JVA.

2H-Dragon
2007-10-25, 09:47
Maybe they all just use their VCR's and DVD-recorders? :heh: ...Actually that might not be that far from the truth. :twitch:

Pell14
2007-10-25, 10:24
seriously, if there is no anime available on the net, i will consider to sucide. I am not joking, i spend most of my time watching animes and manga from the net. I cant really imagine a month without anime. Its almost like taking 3/4 of my life off. Honestly, I am a stingy otaku who doesnt spend any cent on any anime merchandise. Maybe people like me affect their sales, but i do collect mangas although

Altema
2007-10-25, 10:33
You should never joke about your life like that. 1) It's horrible that you would even say that 2) It's horrible that you would even think that 3) It's horrible that anime/manga is that much of your life that you would even say that.

Vexx
2007-10-25, 11:10
Actually, collecting manga or other merchandise still supports the industry (if more indirectly). I get the impression that a lot of Westerners don't understand that *anime*'s main purpose is induce fans to buy manga, CDs, DVDs, figures, and all that froufrou.

Anime and manga is my main form of passive entertainment anymore (gaming-pc&tabletop being my choice of interactive play) but I'd recommend looking around a bit before suiciding :)

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-25, 11:33
Wow, too the point of suicide? I mean, I like anime, but when the time comes where I can't watch it on the internet anymore, I can drop it. Eventually it will be like this, so you should find another hobby to get in to. Even more than anime is fishing for me, I have been fishing all over the US and Canada.

Pell14
2007-10-25, 11:57
yeah i do know that its really horrible

I have syndromes of hikikomori (my counselor told me its severe social anxiety) and im a basically neet :( on top of that im a anime/manga addict!

I know im kind of a loser, i do know that and its horrible, i already started seeking counseling 6 months ago. frankly speaking its not working, my legs still tremble when i order macdonalds and stuff like that. I think its time to switch from counseling to medication, if there is. If anime its taken out of my life, i would be idle for about 8 hours a day, i could easily predict that i will go insane and sucide or become a full time mania artist (considering the fact that i draw doujinshi and human anatomy after my anime craving daily)

People like me are not rare among asia countries, there are even crazier ones. Gaming addicts are way way way crazier than me. At the very least im could still think atm, and i seek counseling on my own behalf. I have dreams too, i will be taking entrance examination on november, hopefully i will be accepted then (studying arts, drawing to be precise)

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-25, 12:02
That is good. Get into school and that takes a large time of your day. Also, just try some new hobbies, collecting, models, out doors things, etc. Just go on a walk around a local park or somehting. Gives you time to think, and exercise. Maybe play a sport or something.

SGT.Mitsuki
2007-10-25, 12:30
If fansubs werent there i woulnt ever have gotten adicted to animes in the first place.
its fansubs which introduced me to anime, not the tv and certainly not a store.
the tv in holland doesnt broadcast any animes anymore these days that i know of,
neither are there stores where you can buy em, nor do i have the money to buy em,
however when i like an anime i tell others about it ant try to introduce them to that anime even though their not anime watchers usually,
which is in my eyes mouth to mouth publicity and a contribution to the anime sociaty,
and im sure other otaku's do the same...

i meen.... without mouth to mouth publicity, there is NO business in the world that can run

seriously, if there is no anime available on the net, i will consider to sucide. I am not joking, i spend most of my time watching animes and manga from the net. I cant really imagine a month without anime. Its almost like taking 3/4 of my life off. Honestly, I am a stingy otaku who doesnt spend any cent on any anime merchandise. Maybe people like me affect their sales, but i do collect mangas although

You should never joke about your life like that. 1) It's horrible that you would even say that 2) It's horrible that you would even think that 3) It's horrible that anime/manga is that much of your life that you would even say that.

Wow, too the point of suicide? I mean, I like anime, but when the time comes where I can't watch it on the internet anymore, I can drop it. Eventually it will be like this, so you should find another hobby to get in to. Even more than anime is fishing for me, I have been fishing all over the US and Canada.

yeah i do know that its really horrible

I have syndromes of hikikomori (my counselor told me its severe social anxiety) and im a basically neet :( on top of that im a anime/manga addict!

I know im kind of a loser, i do know that and its horrible, i already started seeking counseling 6 months ago. frankly speaking its not working, my legs still tremble when i order macdonalds and stuff like that. I think its time to switch from counseling to medication, if there is. If anime its taken out of my life, i would be idle for about 8 hours a day, i could easily predict that i will go insane and sucide or become a full time mania artist (considering the fact that i draw doujinshi and human anatomy after my anime craving daily)

People like me are not rare among asia countries, there are even crazier ones. Gaming addicts are way way way crazier than me. At the very least im could still think atm, and i seek counseling on my own behalf. I have dreams too, i will be taking entrance examination on november, hopefully i will be accepted then (studying arts, drawing to be precise)


without anime id be dead by now by suicide too,
i drown myself in anime to escape the world as it is now,
life sucks and these little story's called animes are basicaly diffent worlds for me which i enter and and experience.

just like pell i got a problem however not the same,
im afraid of every real life human there is,
tho i have a diffrent situation and have a certain cause (which i know of) for my fear.

in real life when ever a person walks, turns or looks in my direction im on sharp, for the situation it might be a possible psychopath trying to hurt if not kill me.
tbh i started to hate n detest people irl, i feel alone like hell and am not good with social situations.

im quite suicidal but for me anime is like counseling, (never gone to counseling since its prob some psychopath that enjoys hearing other peoples problems but anyways)
anime makes me forget my negative feelings n ofthen makes me feel better,
yes there are animes which i find very sad and that make me realy down, but its still in a diffrent way but that always has a happy or atleast better end ^^

also im some 1 that will never tell this stuff to any 1 i know irl, or seek help of any 1 in real life whetter i know them or not...
for me who trusts no1, and cant afford to expose herself like this irl or to any 1 id ever come into contact with,
this kinda info is lethal and i do not show my weaknesses, thus making a situation where getting hurt/betrayed is small to ZERO,
but also has the effect that if there ever was a chance of help it wont be comming~
which results in anime being my life line ^^

Jya ne,
Mits

Ultenth
2007-10-25, 13:16
One of my main problems with a lot of the anime that has been brought over to the states on DVD is how they translate out a lot of cultural referances that they think Americans won't get. Meanwhile fansubbers either just translate it exactly, or if it might be confusing they just add additional text at the top, or still shots with explainations at the beginning or end of the show. I much prefer that approach, plus the texts they use are much more appealing than the DVD captioning. Plus I don't have to wait 1-2 years to watch shows that interest me.

Also the main reason that trying to kill fansubs globally (not just the US does it, tons of other countries do) would be bad for the global anime industry is that it would limit the variety available. Look at the types of video games that other countries don't get that are available in Japan. And look at what types of anime and manga were only brought over for years. Companies bring over and translate what they think will sell, if they don't think it will sell, they don't bring it over. And since no one is willing to take a risk on shows that they think won't do well in other markets, people continue to think they will do poorly, because no one is willing to take that chance and prove them wrong. So we'd be all stuck watching shonen series like DBZ and magical girls shows over and over with really no other genre's available. Fansubbing creates a fanbase that can be easily seen by looking around on the internet, which shows anime companies that shows outside of those usually brought over to the states do have a market here, and increases their chance of being transferred over.

In my opinion if Japan really wants to kill fansubbing they need to get together, get with an American broadcast company, and hire a bunch of subbers, including possibly some of the current fansubber base. Then create a TV station available in the US with quickly released subbed versions of the latest shows airing in Japan. They would keep their commercial marketting dollars, for really not much overhead cost because they would only be doing subs and not dubs. And we would get our anime. I would have 0 problem paying extra for access to a TV station like that.

I buy almost no DVD's, either movies or US tv shows. I'm not much of a collector, and I don't like watching things multiple times usually, so it's a waste of money for me to buy DVD's, I'd rather just watch things once. It's all TV shows, they should follow the current business model for TV shows and not just force people to pay exorbent amounts of money to have to buy everything on DVD. Plus creating a station like that would do an extremely good job of opening up the anime market by exposing it to a larger variety of people, thus increasing the amount of people likely to buy anime, and also increasing the demand and fanbase for side merchandise like toys and such.

If this was done right, and they translated more like the fansubbers do instead of trying to overtranslate it and rip out any cultural referrances, this could be potentially a great idea. Could be a side channel run by one of the current anime TV networks, where they have one with older stuff, and this one with subbed version of the latest shows.

Green²
2007-10-25, 13:28
YouTube and YouTube clone issues likely being what the real focus be on. But in part reads as a bullshit article.

BitTorrent be just thrown in to stroke ANN's anti-fansub base. And yet not much can be done about the later distribution process if when trying to get the US government involved.

Because:

1: They won't let me talk about #1 here.

2: The US government does not currently function. They only work for their own interests.

3: If trying to dodge the issue of #1, they may be just trying to slow it down with the #2. And although the ANN fan may be plugged in, there's no power because California is burning to the ground. And the ANN fan gets knocked over ...as the #2 is really tough.

No offense to those that are of resident of California, which #2 is where they are currently being screwed at.

JustInn14
2007-10-25, 13:51
Come now, there's a couple more things than anime to prevent you from commiting suicide, like McRIB's. I'd tellv you sbout some of my other interests, but you'll laugh at me........

But, I'd be seriously upset if I couldn't watch Lucky Star anymore. TV over here in the States, is Bull$h!t........

HurricaneHige
2007-10-25, 13:56
well some shows r good, prison break, house (kinda overdone now), the office are pretty good shows

but, they are so few and far in between, anime remains my no.1 "TV entertainment"

SGT.Mitsuki
2007-10-25, 14:20
Come now, there's a couple more things than anime to prevent you from commiting suicide, like McRIB's. I'd tellv you sbout some of my other interests, but you'll laugh at me........

But, I'd be seriously upset if I couldn't watch Lucky Star anymore. TV over here in the States, is Bull$h!t........

tbh fastfood isnt something people should be proud on if it prevents em from commitin suicide :/

also tv in almost whole the world is bull....

and tbh i dont see any good things about the world and anime realy is my life line :/
i meen, my daily life would be staring out of the window like a zombie if it werent for anime :/
since i rly dont like to have contact anymore with other people irl.....
contact with other people.... just freaks me out ^^.....

JustInn14
2007-10-25, 15:11
tbh fastfood isnt something people should be proud on if it prevents em from commitin suicide :/

You're right, but the McRIB is a limited time only food item. I still enjoy it, when I can. :)

also tv in almost whole the world is bull....

I agree. It's all corny crap for little kids or brats.

and tbh i dont see any good things about the world and anime realy is my life line :/

Hmm, well, as I said, I have about 5 other intersts, but anime's seriously one that is important to me. Along with the others.

i meen, my daily life would be staring out of the window like a zombie if it werent for anime :/
since i rly dont like to have contact anymore with other people irl.....

Same here. My voice is soft and raspy often. So no one would be able to hear me! :heh:

contact with other people.... just freaks me out ^^.....

Same here. My mom thinks being on the computer alot is "unhealthy". What a freak......

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-25, 15:13
Then you should slowly immerse your self into society. I am still= finding it hard to belive that some people can be so...sorry for lack of a better term...obsessed with anime. I like it and all, but for it to be the one thing keeping me from suicide. That is not a good thing. As I said, try somehthing new. You can't like anything else if you don't try it. But I guess I do have a different mind set...I am not what one would call a typical anime fan. I was into sports, fishing, horse riding, video games, etc before I found anime. And I would never let anyone I know, know I watch anime. I have to keep this world in complete secrecy, mainly from my family. My friends would be more open, but I just keep anime all hidden.

JustInn14
2007-10-25, 15:53
Then you should slowly immerse your self into society.

I try, but it doesn't help thsast my mom's a complete dildo 24/7! :frustrated:

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-25, 15:55
You sound like Cartman, no offense, lol.

SGT.Mitsuki
2007-10-25, 16:37
Then you should slowly immerse your self into society. I am still= finding it hard to belive that some people can be so...sorry for lack of a better term...obsessed with anime. I like it and all, but for it to be the one thing keeping me from suicide. That is not a good thing. As I said, try somehthing new. You can't like anything else if you don't try it. But I guess I do have a different mind set...I am not what one would call a typical anime fan. I was into sports, fishing, horse riding, video games, etc before I found anime. And I would never let anyone I know, know I watch anime. I have to keep this world in complete secrecy, mainly from my family. My friends would be more open, but I just keep anime all hidden.

Gyaaaaaaaaaaaa i dislike sociaty nomatter how i look at it so no way,
and the feeling that il get stabbed in my back the moment some 1 passes me by will never fade either....

also :/ wth theres nothing wrong with anime :/ tho.....
since i see ur profile name, which obviously is german, which meens that,
there is a very high chance that you are german too, which in that case meens that your perants dont realy tollerate stuff from other countries if ya get wa im trieng to say.... which is getting quite more n more normal these days in europe :/


I try, but it doesn't help that my mom's a complete dildo 24/7! :frustrated:

ok thats not so nice to say about your mum but hey who am i to have the right to say that ^^....
i kinda expect poison in every meal i get o.O .....

You sound like Cartman, no offense, lol.

southpark ka? sigh..... southpark.....ka.....



still i laugh at the fact japan acually asked to stop the net releases since the moment that that happens the entire anime market will slowly collapse

Calawain
2007-10-25, 16:52
:D Kudos to Tony K. or whoever has been pulling the strings here for generating such a storm in the little teacup that is our forum.

To be honest, I would not be surprised if that was so when I view the way the ANN staff rail on fansub watchers from their high towers, so to speak. Although, of course individuals with a personal financial stake in the R1 DVD market (as the paid staff at ANN have) will fervently tell you to buy everything at MSRP and collect everything that is remotely interesting. They seem to be offering a lot of soap box morality and little in the way of solutions.

The reality of the situation is as some mentioned here, this is a very small clause in a very large document. If the United States government even pays casual lipservice to this document, the last part they are going to go after is anime. There are much larger concerns outlined in the document that will be addressed first.

And in the absence of US action, neither the anime companies in the US or Japan has the money to engage in legal action against fansub creators, distributors, or downloaders. The legal ground is a bit shaky, and the litigation would cost vast sums of money they don't have. Look at the RIAA, they spent millions and have won one case, yes a single case in Minnesota went to jury and verdict and ended this month. So don't look for anything legal to be successful. On the other hand, it's really easy for them to include a couple of sentences in a long document to try and scare people.

The solution of course, is for anime companies to be innovative and come up with solutions that will address the reality. Morality debates won't solve the problem, solutions like faster licensing times, streaming subtitled shows within a week of airing, more dvd extras, cheaper prices, etc. will. The most innovative company at the moment is Viz, which is able to tie in shows like Naruto with everything from manga to costumes, and have offered direct download of subtitled Death Note episodes. It's a start that the other companies should look to emulate.

So in sum, arguments over the morality or usefulness of fansubs may drive a forum debate, but they won't solve much of anything. And this document will have close to zero affect on fansubs and AS I would think.

mist2123
2007-10-25, 17:13
LOl it would be funny if they pass a bill about banning animes in the us(illegal downloads)

Midonin
2007-10-25, 17:32
After seeing that this thread was started by a one-shot poster and seems to have exploded into something that was probably expected...I'll just offer my two cents.

If I like a show, I buy it, as well as my money will allow. If you liked it then, no problem liking it again on DVD. DVDs are even better, in my opinion - full quality that streaming or a file can't quite have, and extras to boot. I may just be one semi-casual fan (school comes first, after all), but I'm supporting this industry as well as I can. Needless to say, fansubs got me into 99% of my collection. And will expand it several times more in the future. I eagerly await when the release date of Gurren Lagann's first volume is announced.

I'm actually a little surprised that Japan isn't more open to fans outside their borders. I'd say many of us here are Patricia Martins, so to speak. We could probably converse as well as any fan over there, and a sense of camaraderie needs to be accepted. I say Japan companies should be proud they have hundreds more fans several miles away who watch every week with the same excitement as their native fans do.

Vexx
2007-10-25, 17:36
Often this sort of thread is what is could be called a "plant" to stir up controversy and generate hits to the referenced website... I may suggest the thread be locked to prevent more MISinformation spraying around.... die die die :)

Xellos-_^
2007-10-25, 17:43
tell me if you guys think this is a good idea or a bad idea.

Anime companies offer downloadable anime for $1 per ep. In addition to getting the anime the buyer also gets a $1 dollar coupon to buy that series anime dvds.

people can still test the anime and the money they spend on downloads could use to buy the dvd for that series.

The buyers don't spend anymore money then they usually do buying anime and the companies get increase dvd sales.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-25, 17:49
They might do it, but at more money. It is all about money to business people, so they would charge much, much more.

Aoie_Emesai
2007-10-25, 17:49
tell me if you guys think this is a good idea or a bad idea.

Anime companies offer downloadable anime for $1 per ep. In addition to getting the anime the buyer also gets a $1 dollar coupon to buy that series anime dvds.

people can still test the anime and the money they spend on downloads could use to buy the dvd for that series.

The buyers don't spend anymore money then they usually do buying anime and the companies get increase dvd sales.

If they offer less pricy prices per episode on DVD, then i'll gladly accept. I rather have a hard copy for me as a permanate copy, rather than my unstable HD.

retardation
2007-10-25, 18:04
if these studios are so worried about youtube, why don't they just hire a fansubber and put their own shows up for streaming with the commercials in it like adult swim does? they could get these out before the fansubbers have an opportunity to sub and have something like a tv-like audience. lets face it, anime is television. except for extremely popular shows, dvd sales are pathetic and the amount of dvd sales that are currently being lost to fansubs is probably marginal as well.

in fact, i don't know why more american stations don't put their shows up for streaming. what i assume is that it probably makes the television advertisers want to pay less and that money isn't made up by the ad money they get from internet sponsors. if you're a japanese company and are putting out streams for people who couldn't watch the initial show (could ip block japan/japanese audience would probably d/l an hq avi anyway), i wouldn't see this as much of a problem. if anything, it'd just be gravy on top of their local tv ad profits and it'd induce people overseas to buy dvd's--especially since more people were probably watching anime on youtube than people who get anime via torrents.

SeijiSensei
2007-10-25, 18:11
in fact, i don't know why more american stations don't put their shows up for streaming.

The traditional networks have another whole issue to consider -- their affiliated stations. You can bet the local NBC affiliate in Little Rock, AR, doesn't want people watching Heroes over the Internet. The local station won't be able to sell the local "availabilities" at the hour and half-hour bumpers, nor do they get network "lead-ins" to that station's local newscast, the most lucrative part of the local broadcasters' schedules. With most television carried via cable and satellite, it's often easy to forget that the "major networks" like ABC or CBS consist of a bunch of local stations carrying the programs that are distributed by the networks.

testorschoice
2007-10-25, 18:14
YouTube and YouTube clone issues likely being what the real focus be on. But in part reads as a bullshit article.

BitTorrent be just thrown in to stroke ANN's anti-fansub base.

Which specific parts are bullshit? Actually, P2P is mentioned in the original government document.

psycho bolt
2007-10-25, 18:23
It's bullshit that the government is saying this....I will not take a word from them ever again.

testorschoice
2007-10-25, 18:30
It's bullshit that the government is saying this....I will not take a word from them ever again.

Well, it's the Japanese government that's actually saying this. "Da Man" in other countries haven't said anything public yet, including the American government that the document is addressed to.

Altema
2007-10-25, 18:47
without anime id be dead by now by suicide too,
i drown myself in anime to escape the world as it is now,
life sucks and these little story's called animes are basicaly diffent worlds for me which i enter and and experience.

im quite suicidal but for me anime is like counseling, (never gone to counseling since its prob some psychopath that enjoys hearing other peoples problems but anyways)
anime makes me forget my negative feelings n ofthen makes me feel better,
yes there are animes which i find very sad and that make me realy down, but its still in a diffrent way but that always has a happy or atleast better end ^^

also im some 1 that will never tell this stuff to any 1 i know irl, or seek help of any 1 in real life whetter i know them or not...
for me who trusts no1, and cant afford to expose herself like this irl or to any 1 id ever come into contact with,
this kinda info is lethal and i do not show my weaknesses, thus making a situation where getting hurt/betrayed is small to ZERO,
but also has the effect that if there ever was a chance of help it wont be comming~
which results in anime being my life line ^^

Jya ne,
Mits

I can already tell from your post that you are too absorbed into anime. Your little tidbit about not revealing weakness is hardly a concern in the real world. Surprisingly, most people don't really care about your weaknesses and because of that they aren't going to use them against you. The idea of not revealing weakness is such a common theme in anime, and you are using something unrealistic to live your life.

Anime is not counseling, its your drug. Everything you have said basically makes it out the be a drug. The only difference is that the drug will ruin your life and your body. Anime will just ruin your life and make your body weak (if you dont do anything else). It's only a temporary fix and as long as you keep thinking that anime is your ticket out of this world, you won't ever change. But that's fine if you are happy being who you are.

yeah i do know that its really horrible

I have syndromes of hikikomori (my counselor told me its severe social anxiety) and im a basically neet :( on top of that im a anime/manga addict!

I know im kind of a loser, i do know that and its horrible, i already started seeking counseling 6 months ago. frankly speaking its not working, my legs still tremble when i order macdonalds and stuff like that. I think its time to switch from counseling to medication, if there is. If anime its taken out of my life, i would be idle for about 8 hours a day, i could easily predict that i will go insane and sucide or become a full time mania artist (considering the fact that i draw doujinshi and human anatomy after my anime craving daily)

People like me are not rare among asia countries, there are even crazier ones. Gaming addicts are way way way crazier than me. At the very least im could still think atm, and i seek counseling on my own behalf. I have dreams too, i will be taking entrance examination on november, hopefully i will be accepted then (studying arts, drawing to be precise)

Props for seeking help. At least you are trying to move forward.

One of the most common saddest things I've seen are people with little or no dreams. It's very sad.

Tri-ring
2007-10-25, 18:49
if these studios are so worried about youtube, why don't they just hire a fansubber and put their own shows up for streaming with the commercials in it like adult swim does? they could get these out before the fansubbers have an opportunity to sub and have something like a tv-like audience. lets face it, anime is television. except for extremely popular shows, dvd sales are pathetic and the amount of dvd sales that are currently being lost to fansubs is probably marginal as well.



Some are actually up for streaming like Gundam 00 (in RAW anyways).

Gao Online (http://www.gyao.jp/anime/)

mist2123
2007-10-25, 18:58
yeah i do know that its really horrible

I have syndromes of hikikomori (my counselor told me its severe social anxiety) and im a basically neet :( on top of that im a anime/manga addict!

I know im kind of a loser, i do know that and its horrible, i already started seeking counseling 6 months ago. frankly speaking its not working, my legs still tremble when i order macdonalds and stuff like that. I think its time to switch from counseling to medication, if there is. If anime its taken out of my life, i would be idle for about 8 hours a day, i could easily predict that i will go insane and sucide or become a full time mania artist (considering the fact that i draw doujinshi and human anatomy after my anime craving daily)

People like me are not rare among asia countries, there are even crazier ones. Gaming addicts are way way way crazier than me. At the very least im could still think atm, and i seek counseling on my own behalf. I have dreams too, i will be taking entrance examination on november, hopefully i will be accepted then (studying arts, drawing to be precise)

same as you :) except i am also addicted to games LOL


They want to stop streaming and piracy but why are they allowing Japanese streaming site to stream:confused:

'The Japanese are allowed to stream but not foreigners!!?'

cyth
2007-10-25, 19:04
I may suggest the thread be locked to prevent more MISinformation spraying around.... die die die :)I agree. Besides, it's branched a few other sub-topics that need to end now. If anything, this thread has taught us a valuable lesson. Perhaps it's time to reconsider who can and cannot post new threads.

testorschoice
2007-10-25, 19:05
They want to stop streaming and piracy but why are they allowing Japanese streaming site to stream:confused:

'The Japanese are allowed to stream but not us!!?'

They Japanese government is only trying to stop illegal streaming. The Gyao stream above is an official stream licensed from Sunrise and Dentsu. The government document isn't about official Japanese streams, just like it isn't about Adult Swim Fix's streams or the official streams from American anime companies. The Japanese companies have been taking down unofficial streams and files in Japan too, although it's like trying to build a dam during a typhoon.

Kamui4356
2007-10-25, 19:06
tell me if you guys think this is a good idea or a bad idea.

Anime companies offer downloadable anime for $1 per ep. In addition to getting the anime the buyer also gets a $1 dollar coupon to buy that series anime dvds.

people can still test the anime and the money they spend on downloads could use to buy the dvd for that series.

The buyers don't spend anymore money then they usually do buying anime and the companies get increase dvd sales.

I'd much rather have a site with a monthly subscription than pay per episode. If I have to pay per episode I'm less likely to use such a site. Not to mention after already paying for the episodes once, why pay for them again on a dvd? With a subscription based site it's more like getting HBO at least in my mind.

A free, ad supported site like NBC now has would be even better, but I'd settle for a subscription based site.

Xellos-_^
2007-10-25, 19:22
I'd much rather have a site with a monthly subscription than pay per episode. If I have to pay per episode I'm less likely to use such a site. Not to mention after already paying for the episodes once, why pay for them again on a dvd? With a subscription based site it's more like getting HBO at least in my mind.

A free, ad supported site like NBC now has would be even better, but I'd settle for a subscription based site.

Well the money spend on the download eps will be counted toward the purchase price of a dvd as a coupon.

So you spend $26 to download all 26 ep of a series. You will then have 26 $1 coupon to use to buy a dvd.

You are spending same amount.

User65554
2007-10-25, 19:26
This probably won't change much. The US has enough problems already keeping it's film and music from online downloads.

Kamui4356
2007-10-25, 21:25
Well the money spend on the download eps will be counted toward the purchase price of a dvd as a coupon.

So you spend $26 to download all 26 ep of a series. You will then have 26 $1 coupon to use to buy a dvd.

You are spending same amount.

Missed that line. :heh: Still, a lot of people will think, "well I already paid for the episodes, so why pay more just to have a dvd that takes up shelf space?"

Not to mention, if they have to pay per episode they might be less willing to check out series they're unsure about. With a subscription service, there's no extra cost besides the time to check those series out. Sure a dollar isn't much, but it might be just enough to stop someone from checking out a series like Shion no Ou.

Really though both have successful models in television, with premimum channels like hbo and pay per view. Personally I prefer the subscription based model, but I'm sure others will complain about paying fo content they have no interest in or something like that.

aohige
2007-10-25, 21:59
same as you :) except i am also addicted to games LOL


They want to stop streaming and piracy but why are they allowing Japanese streaming site to stream:confused:

'The Japanese are allowed to stream but not foreigners!!?'

The diffrence of legal and illegal?
Diffrence of money getting to the hands of rightholders and not?

Gyao is officially licensed, advertisement supported, completely legal operation.
For all intents and purposes, it works just like a television channel... except it's over the internet.

What you want is a movement to create similar operation with english language sites, instead of advocating crime.

Sazelyt
2007-10-25, 23:50
Interesting, but why did they ask only US? Just because the subtitle language is English?

Well, I don't know but unless the Japanese pays for all these licensing fees of all those titles in US, it would be very difficult to make US government move on that issue. And, even the companies within US are not acting that way. The seriousness of their actions haven't reached the level of MPAA or other organizations.

But, anyways, for the companies in Japan, I think the best approach would be to make the titles - the subtitled versions - available online using a pay-per-view system. They won't lose anything, as the majority of those titles are already available online, and seeing the troubles of MPAA in stopping the sharing of the files, I doubt they will reach any satisfactory or even better result.

So you spend $26 to download all 26 ep of a series. You will then have 26 $1 coupon to use to buy a dvd.What kind of DVD are you talking about? 26 episodes should make around 8-9 DVDs, making the price much higher than that $26.

Xellos-_^
2007-10-26, 00:25
Interesting, but why did they ask only US? Just because the subtitle language is English?

Well, I don't know but unless the Japanese pays for all these licensing fees of all those titles in US, it would be very difficult to make US government move on that issue. And, even the companies within US are not acting that way. The seriousness of their actions haven't reached the level of MPAA or other organizations.

But, anyways, for the companies in Japan, I think the best approach would be to make the titles - the subtitled versions - available online using a pay-per-view system. They won't lose anything, as the majority of those titles are already available online, and seeing the troubles of MPAA in stopping the sharing of the files, I doubt they will reach any satisfactory or even better result.

What kind of DVD are you talking about? 26 episodes should make around 8-9 DVDs, making the price much higher than that $26.

same dvd as it is now.

in R1 a 26 ep series would be about 7 disc
24 ep would be 6 disc

bayoab
2007-10-26, 00:56
Although, of course individuals with a personal financial stake in the R1 DVD market (as the paid staff at ANN have) will fervently tell you to buy everything at MSRP and collect everything that is remotely interesting. They seem to be offering a lot of soap box morality and little in the way of solutions.
Actually, I've never heard a company representative actually say to pay MSRP. They understand as well as us that our money is limited. Beside, between paying 40% off MSRP and paying MSRP, they don't get any more money unless it is directly sold. They also take notice of where we buy our stuff. There was a point there where it was clear they realized how many people used DDD.
if these studios are so worried about youtube, why don't they just hire a fansubber and put their own shows up for streaming with the commercials in it like adult swim does? they could get these out before the fansubbers have an opportunity to sub and have something like a tv-like audience. lets face it, anime is television. except for extremely popular shows, dvd sales are pathetic and the amount of dvd sales that are currently being lost to fansubs is probably marginal as well.
Because the point is, these are not meant to be international properties when airing. They are meant to be Japanese properties until someone pays for the rights to air it in other places.

Sazelyt
2007-10-26, 00:58
same dvd as it is now.

in R1 a 26 ep series would be about 7 disc
24 ep would be 6 discIn that case, $26 price seems more like a bootleg price, rather than original. Especially for popular series, it may be better to multiply that amount by 3, which would make a subscription based system a better and cheaper choice.

Xellos-_^
2007-10-26, 01:16
In that case, $26 price seems more like a bootleg price, rather than original. Especially for popular series, it may be better to multiply that amount by 3, which would make a subscription based system a better and cheaper choice.

$1 = 1 DOWNLOAD Ep = $1 coupon for regular price anime dvd

xris
2007-10-26, 02:45
I would like everyone to remember the original topic of this thread. It isn't about the price of anime, it isn't about the legality of fansubs, it isn't about streaming sites, etc., etc.

Any further off-topic discussion is just going to be deleted.

Plus, bayoab has stated the following a few times now. Please do not over-react to what amounts to a single paragraph in a 52 page document.

Read what this is again:
The Japanese government issued a formal statement of requests to the government of the United States on regulatory reform and market competition policy on October 18, and included a request for the United States to help stop the unauthorized reproduction and distribution of Japanese animation online. Specifically, the formal statement mentions the spread of Japanese animation and other materials on video-sharing sites and peer-to-peer file-sharing networks.
This is a single PARAGRAPH in a 52 page document regarding the prevalence of anime on video sites and p2p areas. The word anime appears once and only once in the entire document. This seems more like a strongly worded version of "if you haven't guessed, we really don't like our stuff on youtube/etc and we want something done about it because it isn't going away." The magnitude of this is being extremely exaggerated by some people.

David L
2007-10-26, 04:02
I don't know what this means for animesuki's future, but we knew that fan subbing wasn't legal from the start. If japan promises to sub everything they release I have no problem with it..

In the medium term, it's a symptom.

The problem is that during the 1998-2001 period Japanese anime studios grew gradually dependent on profits from the US anime industry for their health. (At that point, fansubbing was a very minor issue as peer-to-peer was not popular.)
They were in a situation where the western market was hungry for anime to a possibly even greater degree than the Japanese market, since they had no free air shows to watch. Thus, they could supplement sponsorship and licensing with western DVD deals and the occasional television deal as well.

Japan also sold DVDs to the domestic market, but they were high priced and mostly bought by major collectors for shows they REALLY liked (e.g., Evangelion, etc.), or were direct-release DVD. Most people in Japan saw their anime on TV.

The increasing demand also saw even more product being licensed: not just the best shows, but just about anything. Major expansion and co-partnerships between Japanese and US studios. Go Anime!

But then came in quick succession various digital fansubbing operations. Initially based on hard-to-find message boards, they eventually moved to the new bittorrent. With western fans (and Japanese fans as well) who ignored copyright and used bit torrent able to get the equivalent of "free air" digital copies distributed within days of the shows release, the bottom fallsl out of this model.

Back when Japanese studios relied on their own domestic market for profit, the shows made money by commercial sponsorship and licensing of product (toys, model kits, music, etc.). Some shows still do a lot of that (nana TV and gundam, etc.). But the big US and Euro profits of anime DVD sales in the "captive western market" of the 1995-2000 pre-digisub era saw them shift to a mode where WESTERN DVD licensing provided a big chunk of income. It seemed great! Then came bittorrent and youtube.

The US-DVD market was so profitable because US fans were starved for anime, with only a few shows on TV. But the model is simply not sustainable if a large portion of the customer base uses fansubs to "pick and choose" and buy product only after they've seen it. Sure, many people who watch fansubs buy the ones they really like on DVD. But very few, I suspect, buy EVERY fansub they watch. Or even a fifth of them. And if the Japanese market is now dependant on US DVD sales it can't sustain itself like that unless every series is so freaking good that people MUST buy it on DVD.

Which simply won't happen.

Hence this news story. The Japanese studios are waking up to realize that by tying themselves economically to the American market, they have left themselves vulnerable to the American market's problems. And that problem is digisubbing.

In the old days of anime, people bought DVDs sight-unseen - sometimes subscribed to entire series sight-unseen - based on the hype. And in general, most series were good, because the US companies could only afford, usually, to gamble on the best (or on hentai, which sold to a different demographic). But as the companies expanded, they had to pick up more and more middle of the road shows as well to feed the demand. And these are not sustainable if fansubs exist, because in most cases, people aren't enthusiastic enough to buy them once they've seen them.

They might do that if they hadn't seen them. If the only choice was DVD. But not otherwise.

Hence, the Japanese studio problem. Hence, they're crying out for help. You see that in conventions, in the Haruhi ad campaign, in this recent news report. And the problem is, they're kind of screwed.

Basically, one of three things will likely happen:

(1). Company enforcement manages to be successful in shutting fansubbing down, either politely (pre-licensing EVERY series!) or by legal threats. Difficult given the music industry example, but possible, I guess. This is what we're seeing attempted. The US licensor's and the Japanese creative companies both want something done.
(2). Over a period of the next 5-10 years, the US and Japanese anime industry gradually decline, accelerating the move of talented people into other areas (e.g., video games, US domestic production of "anime-like" shows that are made in the US and can rely on US product-tie ins etc., making little games or anime digital pets for cell phones, whatever), basically. becoming a shadow of itself.
(3). The profit model significantly changes, whether it's by 0.99 cent-per-episode direct downloads being offered simultaneous with Japanese release (or for Japanese release), a shift away from broadcast anime to OAV serial production with simultaneous Japanese and US releases, or whatever, simultaneous US-Japan broadcast, or a return to a toy-licensing model (perhaps based on manga licensing) where the anime is essentially designed to sell the manga, kits, whatever (in which case that probably limits the number of new innovative series).

Siegel Clyne
2007-10-26, 06:06
All this just means that the 10,000 copy "break-even point" is an overstated generalization, and that success in sales figures difers from property to property, production commitee to production commitee, and so on.

By the way, R2 DVD sales revenue of Japanese anime are up (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-10-18/half-year-anime-dvd-sales) overall by 15% from last year, according to JVA.


Yep.

I wrote the last post on the Anime News Network thread (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=44126) discussing the subject.

relentlessflame
2007-10-26, 11:30
But then came in quick succession various digital fansubbing operations. Initially based on hard-to-find message boards, they eventually moved to the new bittorrent. With western fans (and Japanese fans as well) who ignored copyright and used bit torrent able to get the equivalent of "free air" digital copies distributed within days of the shows release, the bottom fallsl out of this model.

[...]

The US-DVD market was so profitable because US fans were starved for anime, with only a few shows on TV. But the model is simply not sustainable if a large portion of the customer base uses fansubs to "pick and choose" and buy product only after they've seen it. Sure, many people who watch fansubs buy the ones they really like on DVD. But very few, I suspect, buy EVERY fansub they watch. Or even a fifth of them. And if the Japanese market is now dependant on US DVD sales it can't sustain itself like that unless every series is so freaking good that people MUST buy it on DVD.In the time continuum you presented here, this is the part that isn't quite as cleancut as you make it sound. During a time, as you said, they were licensing anything and everything, because the market was hungry. It was the "new in thing", in a sense. But that itself played just as large of a role in the "bubble burst". Anime concepts, in general, are largely formulatic and derivative, and American fans, in general, are looking for something new and exciting. The "all anime is great!" mentality (when it all seemed new) slowly gave way to the "90% of anime is crap" mentality (that you still very much see today), and people slowed down their purchases. The general American audience also didn't follow the Japanese transition into the "moe~" trend, which further contributed to their weakening interest in the anime market. The TV series DVD boxset also rose in popularity in America, swaying the value perception ("wait, I can get 26 episodes of Popular TV Show X for $50, or 3 episodes of Anime Show Y for $25?"). Fansubs played a role in this too, as it provided a way for people to watch anime without committing to a purchase upfront; it was neatly timed with the general disenfranchisement that was happening in the music scene ("we don't want to pay $25 to get one good song").

So all of these factors (and many more, I'm sure) resulted in the market correction we saw. It's a traditional case of oversaturating the market as a result of excessive optimism (see also the tech bubble), and we're still seeing the consequences play out now. Even if you took one element out of the equation (fansubs, for example), I find it unlikely it would have changed the outcome significantly. Just like in Japan, there's a group interested in watching anime, and a much smaller group interested in buying it. For a while, it seemed that the latter was bigger than it actually was.

I'm sure no one in this grand scheme realistically expect that dampening piracy alone will result in a significant increase in sales. What they're really fighting for, though, is to preserve the value of their intellectual property, and their control over it. In other words, when they sit around the negotiating table with a licensing company (Funimation, ADV, whoever), the rampant piracy makes the license less valuable in the eyes of the American company (because it's already "out there"), and thus the Japanese companies aren't able to ask for (or get) as much as they'd like. Whether it has an actual impact on sales is less important the perception. That and, eventually, they'd all like to offer their own streaming services so they can control the distribution and use the statistical data to support and strengthen their marketing campaigns. We also have the transition to Blu-Ray/HD DVD, where Japan and the U.S. are in the same region factoring into this. So there are a lot of reasons they would be interested in pushing the U.S. government to take a look at this issue, but I doubt it really has all that much to do with the tired "lost sales" argument. More than anything else, publishers are fighting to stay relevant as the market transitions to new distribution schemes. The only way they can do that is to keep some sort of a leash on the properties they have rights to.

Vexx
2007-10-26, 12:38
Cookies for both David L. and Relentlessflame's comments once again showing why things are complicated and that the tactic of reducing problems to simplistic levels frequently produces the wrong solution :)

The only thing I'll add is that the *concept* of intellectual property as the so-called owners would like to have it defined, imo, is fatally flawed in the long term. But that would involve a long discussion about the original purposes of copyright and the Creative Commons that I don't want to write a thesis for at the moment. The various points of view and philosophies are all already documented anyway. :)

aohige
2007-10-26, 12:53
It all comes down to this.

Yeah, piracy isn't going to go away, and fansubbing DOES indeed have negative impact as well as some positive impact. Not acknowledging that is simply in a denial. Companies know it's not going to go away, and there's nothing they can realistically do to prevent it.

Who's at fault here? Well, there are faults and irresponsibility on all parties, but the most harmful ones are leechers. DOMs. The guys who simply pirate everything, and don't spend a dime, even when they like what they see.

It's very basic. If you like a product, be it music, TV shows, whatever... I don't care where you got it from, PLEASE buy the product and show your support. If no money goes into product you like, then you're dooming your own favorite show/band/whatever. Leechers do nothing but harm the industry, be it any industry. This part is up to you guys, indivisual users, not to the companies. The argument "They don't release attractive enough merchandise for me to care to spend money on" is moot point. Because if that was the case.... what are you doing here? :rolleyes: You like anime, that's why you're here right?

David L
2007-10-26, 13:25
The TV series DVD boxset also rose in popularity in America, swaying the value perception ("wait, I can get 26 episodes of Popular TV Show X for $50, or 3 episodes of Anime Show Y for $25?"). Fansubs played a role in this too, as it provided a way for people to watch anime without committing to a purchase upfront; it was neatly timed with the general disenfranchisement that was happening in the music scene ("we don't want to pay $25 to get one good song").


Good points. But here's where the fansubs are an issue.

The industry is operating on a hardcover/softcover book model: the initial release ($25 or so for 3-5 episodes plus extras) is the hardcover; the DVD box set ($50 or so for the series) is the softcover. The model works well in the publishing industry... but it is dependent on hardcore fans - early adopters - who are eager to get the NEW STUFF NOW and We Can't Wait! The trouble is, a good fraction of hardcore fans who want New Stuff Now can get their new stuff now months faster by fansub downloading. And if they're going to wait and loyally by the tv series, why not wait another six months to a year and get the DVD set saying 2/3 price?

Margins are often only a few percentage points, because profits have to be split between retailer, US company, Japanese company, etc. Even if the fansubs only take away a FRACTION of the profit, that percentage is taken off the high-end "hardcover" market . And that's where it hurts. The market is marginal - thanks to the bubble - that fansubs have an influence out of proportion to their size. It's because the basic market is oversaturated that fansubs hurt the companies.

The bottom line, I think, is that fansub or not, the sales model is not sustainable in that people will not pay new-movie prices for 3-5 episodes of generic anime tv product. They will pay it for their occasional favorite series, and the big hit sales support the others... but that probably cannot sustain the anime industry in Japan by its lonesome. And that means that the Japanese industry will have to find a way to sustain itself some other way, or the market will remain troubled unless and until it can find a temporary boost from some other Evangelion-level hit...

Vexx
2007-10-26, 13:26
@aohige: That's what I call the "street musician" model.... if you like what they do, put some money in the hat so they can continue to make your life brighter.
If you're rich, put more -- if you're not, put what you can. If you can't right now, promise yourself to put some later and then *DO* it.
The big corps may not like it.. but they're no different than the street musician or juggler in the big picture. And conversely, I have no particular reason to be tolerant of people who don't leech entertainment without ever intending on give any of it a dime.

As Magnatunes (company) and Radiohead, the Grateful Dead and others show with their "pay what you think its worth" model ... just because *everyone* isn't paying the full price doesn't mean you aren't maximizing your profits anyway (since there's fewer *everyone* at full price).

relentlessflame
2007-10-26, 13:53
The industry is operating on a hardcover/softcover book model: the initial release ($25 or so for 3-5 episodes plus extras) is the hardcover; the DVD box set ($50 or so for the series) is the softcover. The model works well in the publishing industry... but it is dependent on hardcore fans - early adopters - who are eager to get the NEW STUFF NOW and We Can't Wait! The trouble is, a good fraction of hardcore fans who want New Stuff Now can get their new stuff now months faster by fansub downloading. And if they're going to wait and loyally by the tv series, why not wait another six months to a year and get the DVD set saying 2/3 price?

Margins are often only a few percentage points, because profits have to be split between retailer, US company, Japanese company, etc. Even if the fansubs only take away a FRACTION of the profit, that percentage is taken off the high-end "hardcover" market . And that's where it hurts. The market is marginal - thanks to the bubble - that fansubs have an influence out of proportion to their size. It's because the basic market is oversaturated that fansubs hurt the companies.I suspect that you're overinflating the importance of fansubs and, again, oversimplifying the issue. Even in today's market, industry representatives have stated that singles still dominate in terms of sales. And further, if a fansub viewer is not sufficiently interested in the show to buy the singles, are we really more convinced they'll wait even longer to get the sets? I mean, I'm sure it happens, but I haven't seen that opinion posted very frequently. Fansub viewers don't by any means make up the majority of the anime purchasing market, and the majority of the collectors from yesteryear have moved on (except for the occasional nostalgia releases).

The bottom line, I think, is that fansub or not, the sales model is not sustainable in that people will not pay new-movie prices for 3-5 episodes of generic anime tv product. They will pay it for their occasional favorite series, and the big hit sales support the others... but that probably cannot sustain the anime industry in Japan by its lonesome. And that means that the Japanese industry will have to find a way to sustain itself some other way, or the market will remain troubled unless and until it can find a temporary boost from some other Evangelion-level hit...I agree. The issue is that times have changed, and the market needs to adapt. As we see in all entertainment-related industries right now, it's a slow, gradual process with a lot of growing pains. Eventually, though, I'm pretty confident they'll figure something out.

David L
2007-10-26, 14:59
I suspect that you're overinflating the importance of fansubs and, again, oversimplifying the issue. Even in today's market, industry representatives have stated that singles still dominate in terms of sales. And further, if a fansub viewer is not sufficiently interested in the show to buy the singles, are we really more convinced they'll wait even longer to get the sets? I mean, I'm sure it happens, but I haven't seen that opinion posted very frequently. Fansub viewers don't by any means make up the majority of the anime purchasing market, and the majority of the collectors from yesteryear have moved on (except for the occasional nostalgia releases).

I agree. The issue is that times have changed, and the market needs to adapt. As we see in all entertainment-related industries right now, it's a slow, gradual process with a lot of growing pains. Eventually, though, I'm pretty confident they'll figure something out.

I agree I've over-simplifying. In general terms, the popular series sell well. The threat is to the margin of profit on the 'middle of road' series. The trouble is that some *Japanese* companies are apparently (based on statements made by reps and industry people at US anime conventions) relying on the sales of middle-of-the-road broadcast average anime series to US companies to keep them financially afloat. I suspect it is these sales that fansubs are most affecting.

But I don't have hard data, so I could be completely wrong. It's also worth pointing out that copying of anime was present in even the early 90s. For a time, most anime was available on VHS and many video stores carried full ranges. Just about every other anime fan I knew would go to the video store, rent an anime, then use a couple of VCRs to copy the damn thing, or would share and copy VHS tapes among themselves. DVD releases temporarily halted this, but it was there from the beginning.

Midonin
2007-10-26, 16:35
Believe me, my money is going towards as large a collection as I can. I can't get it all at once, and it takes time, but my support is there.

tatsuzan
2007-10-26, 17:07
I am sometimes surprised, how american people don't know about what their government do at outside of U.S.
Is there truly exist free speach?:heh:

U.S.government do a LOT for protect their Hollywood movie business through this "The U.S.-Japan Regulatory Reform and Competition Policy Initiative" .

For example, to record the movie in theater by camera or recorder is Penal servitude in japan form 2007 as U.S.gov issued.

U.S.government even want to change the most besic rule of japanese copyright raw.Now, japanese copyright raw is "Shinkoku-zai" means "An offense subject to prosecution only if the victim presses charges".and U.S offers to change it for protect their software business.:upset:
and japanse otaku worried for it. Because if raw has changed, all Doujinshi will be illigal.

Do you mean, Washington is the only goverment which have a right to "correct" other country's copyright protection??

If you want to know amore, (I know, people in U.S. are not interested in such kind of thinkgs) please search "The U.S.-Japan Regulatory Reform and Competition Policy Initiative" and read about it.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-26, 17:17
Since World War II, Japan has been in Washington's shirt pocket. Nations the US defeats and dominates take it, while other(United Kingdom, other major European nations) don't.

Japan paid and is still paying a heavy price for their revenge against the oil embargo.(I am an American and I feel the US should let other nations govern themselves.)

Seska
2007-10-26, 17:46
Wow, from stopping Illegal Net Releases of Anime, to the Outside politics of USA... What a great step :)


ok, for clear out... Not a big to off topic?

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-26, 19:08
Yep. this thread is all over. DVD prices in between.

JustInn14
2007-10-26, 20:39
Since World War II, Japan has been in Washington's shirt pocket. Nations the US defeats and dominates take it, while other(United Kingdom, other major European nations) don't.


That's dumb.

What about other UNDUBBED anime's like Lucky Star?! :uhoh:

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-26, 21:30
What is dumb about that? That is exactly how it is.

JustInn14
2007-10-27, 02:17
What is dumb about that? That is exactly how it is.

Sorry. I just hadn't known about that fact before. Anyways *trying to get back on topic* Does this "Rule" affect anime episodes on youtube? (probably does, but it doesn't hurt to ask) ;).

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-27, 10:06
Youtube was taking anime off months ago. If you want to stream, there are better sites.

Calawain
2007-10-27, 11:00
I am sometimes surprised, how american people don't know about what their government do at outside of U.S.
Is there truly exist free speach?:heh:

U.S.government do a LOT for protect their Hollywood movie business through this "The U.S.-Japan Regulatory Reform and Competition Policy Initiative" .

For example, to record the movie in theater by camera or recorder is Penal servitude in japan form 2007 as U.S.gov issued.

U.S.government even want to change the most besic rule of japanese copyright raw.Now, japanese copyright raw is "Shinkoku-zai" means "An offense subject to prosecution only if the victim presses charges".and U.S offers to change it for protect their software business.:upset:
and japanse otaku worried for it. Because if raw has changed, all Doujinshi will be illigal.

Do you mean, Washington is the only goverment which have a right to "correct" other country's copyright protection??

If you want to know amore, (I know, people in U.S. are not interested in such kind of thinkgs) please search "The U.S.-Japan Regulatory Reform and Competition Policy Initiative" and read about it.

It's not that the US has the "right" to enforce their copyrights abroad, it's the fact that they have the power to. Hollywood has a huge power and money base, and they can reach any government in the world through the U.S. government. It's the reality of politics and economics, otakudom is small, Hollywood is very very large.

bayoab
2007-10-27, 12:05
It's not that the US has the "right" to enforce their copyrights abroad, it's the fact that they have the power to. Hollywood has a huge power and money base, and they can reach any government in the world through the U.S. government. It's the reality of politics and economics, otakudom is small, Hollywood is very very large.Actually, in most developed countries, companies have the legal rights in most countries to enforce their copyrights as per the protections afforded in the country of question. Japan could always come over and enforce their copyrights if they wanted to. It's just expensive for them.

Zarn
2007-10-27, 16:24
i say keep asking, kthxbye.

Avatar_notADV
2007-10-27, 17:11
It's expensive for us too!

One of the problems of copyright enforcement in the US is that -every- case is a federal case. That means that it's not really possible to bring a copyright case for less than a couple thousand dollars in filing expenses and legal time. Doesn't matter how small an infringement it is, or how open-and-shut the case is, it's just that expensive to do anything. (You'll also wait a few months...)

The RIAA can afford to blow that kind of cash on prosecutions. The anime industry can't. There's just not enough profits to support the legal action unless you're getting the money at the end of the process.

But you can't sue anime fans for profit. They SPEND IT ALL ON ANIME! ;p

So there's no good solution. Anime fans make crappy legal targets if you're relying on income. But if you can't just eat the prosecution costs, and you can't recover from the defendants... you really can't sue.

Kyomi
2007-10-27, 18:14
I guess that makes sense somewhat.
Though I can't really say if they will or will not be able to follow up their actions.
I'll just go with the flow until it all comes crashing down on us, when that happens I'll just go do something else I guess.

-HyugaNeji-
2007-10-27, 19:57
Our thinking has completely changed. I assume there are many people here, way over 20 years. Not even 10 years ago, the mentality of people was totally different. If you wanted to have something, you went to buy it, because most of the people would've never dared to actually buy some super low quality VHS at a black market. And also black market contact wasn't as easy and "risk free" as the internet.

But then came the internet. It completely changed our behaviour. Ask yourself how many anime movies and series you already watched? Imagine yourself 10 years before. It would have been TOTALLY normal for any of us to watch 1 or 2 series each year if we had to buy many VHS for it. Nowadays it may be 1 or 2 series each week for some people here.

The internet made greedy bastards out of the people. We yell MORE MORE MORE and it seems totally normal. That's why we lost our sense of appreciation. We download, we watch, we download, we watch. And so on.

TB's full of anime? That would equal thousands of dollars/euros. That's why the current youth (in my eyes) has a twisted sense of reality. It's just: I WANT X, I GET X. Paying? NO WAY IN HELL. People lost the ability to go without the thing they want, if they can't afford it. Of course i also watch fan sub's once in a while, but i can count the series i watched the last year on one hand. A

On the other hand. The logic, that sales would rise again, without the availability is wrong. If it wasn't for the easy availabilty, demand would decrease to the REAL level again. Which means, 1 or 2 series each year (that's an example) The TB's of anime on a harddisk are merely a product of boredom and easy availability and not real demand.

Vexx
2007-10-27, 22:59
Those of us paying attention in the patent, trademark, and copyright arenas know that the US keeps trying to "export" its rather novel interpretations of such things to other nations. In the last few years, the EU has pushed back pretty hard (especially after organized troutslapping of the EU 'crats by informed citizenry). The Asian sector has been a more mixed bag -- often nodding its head and then continuing with 'business as usual'. The anime sector is just one small component of the whole debate over the control of created works.

WanderingKnight
2007-10-28, 01:59
The internet made greedy bastards out of the people. We yell MORE MORE MORE and it seems totally normal. That's why we lost our sense of appreciation. We download, we watch, we download, we watch. And so on.

FYI, similar debacles took place when video/audio tape recorders first appeared. What happened, then? Nothing, the industry just found a new way of selling the product. Now it's harder since it seems the US government wants to keep an alliance with the copyright holding companies (!= artists), but eventually, things will change. Consumers decide, not the industry. Without consumers, the industry can't exist. It's kind of like the perverse relationship between the master and the slave, where the slave depends as much on the master as the master on him. However, in these kinds of products, consumers have infinitely more power than the industry, since we're talking about luxury commodities, which are non-essential to life. So, in this case, it's the industry the one that has to change the way of acting, not the consumers.

You should really watch Steal This Movie! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steal_This_Movie), which will probably give you a good insight on the whole debate.

cyth
2007-10-28, 04:34
You should really watch Steal This Movie! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steal_This_Movie), which will probably give you a good insight on the whole debate.Don't you mean Steal This Film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steal_This_Film)?

-HyugaNeji-
2007-10-28, 06:43
WandererKnight i know those things. What i wanted to say is mainly, that attitude has changed. Explain to me, if it's "normal" to have terabytes of anime on the harddisk? Hundreds of series and movies? To own such an amount was impossible for the broad audience in the past. And that's just, because it's free. If it wasn't for free, people would deal with it and say: Well, then i just watch what i really want to watch. And instead of hundrets of series/movies it'll just be a couple of them. But with the availability people became kind of addicted and want more and more. And it feels normal.

User65554
2007-10-28, 08:17
^I have a friend who downloads anime, burns them onto DVDs, puts them in a large CD case, and never watches them. He just collects them.

Midonin
2007-10-28, 08:31
I don't think the advent of the Internet made all of us greedy. The fact that so much variety exists is by and far a positive. American and Japanese fandom are nearly aligned now on everything except DVD sales, but only because it takes us years to get them. That aside, I'd like to say things are better than they would've been years ago, where the fraction of anime known was tiny in comparison.

WanderingKnight
2007-10-28, 09:49
WandererKnight i know those things. What i wanted to say is mainly, that attitude has changed. Explain to me, if it's "normal" to have terabytes of anime on the harddisk? Hundreds of series and movies? To own such an amount was impossible for the broad audience in the past. And that's just, because it's free. If it wasn't for free, people would deal with it and say: Well, then i just watch what i really want to watch. And instead of hundrets of series/movies it'll just be a couple of them. But with the availability people became kind of addicted and want more and more. And it feels normal.

Who're you to decide what's normal and not? I'm not making a judgment of value over the situation, I'm just saying that these kinds of things always happened. IMO it's positive, since it grants people an enormous amount of freedom over the things they might want to watch or not, and in such way it enriches them. "Oh, it must be bad because we didn't watch so many in the past!" is no way to justify things. In the past there were a lot of bad things, too. Then there's the small little fact that the scope of anime has expanded so wildly that it offers lots of variety, much more than the one offered in the 70's or 80's, or even in the 90's.

It really depends, I personally feel that such assertions are kinda "get off my lawn!" negative attitudes towards the current world just for the sake of nostalgia. If things became like this, it's because they had to become like this. Whether this is good or bad, it'll be in the hands of the future generations to decide. As for now, the only thing the industry can do to prevent their own destruction is to cope up with the situation.

aohige
2007-10-28, 09:54
FYI, similar debacles took place when video/audio tape recorders first appeared. What happened, then? Nothing, the industry just found a new way of selling the product.

No it's not the same.
There was no way for an indivisual to share his video collection with millions of others in the entire world with VHS movement. The amount of impact a single user can make on the internet is on a tottaly diffrent scale. The sheer scale diffrence is so large, that drawing a comparison of similarities between the two is just plain silly.

And he does have a point. The lack of respect for intellectual properties most definitly have diminished in the past ten years.
You may be too young to notice it, but those of us who actually LIVED through the introduction of VHS/CD era have seen the changes.
The younger new generation of kids have absolutely no repect for it, from my experience.
Many have literally told me "whey the hell would I pay for shit I wanna listen to? (or watch)".
There are few companies that's trying to shift the business models due to the change in society, and few are successful (such as Apple).

I don't think the advent of the Internet made all of us greedy. The fact that so much variety exists is by and far a positive. American and Japanese fandom are nearly aligned now on everything except DVD sales, but only because it takes us years to get them. That aside, I'd like to say things are better than they would've been years ago, where the fraction of anime known was tiny in comparison.

And that is the positive side of the effect of Internet.
Because so many indivisuals are connected with only the language barrier in between, hobbies can be shared and spread to literally anyone in the world. This has created global acknowledgement of anime that the industry has never seen.
However, whether the positive effect of the internet outweights the negative, or vice versa, no one knows exactly, and probably will continue to be studied with no clear answer.

WanderingKnight
2007-10-28, 10:24
And he does have a point. The lack of respect for intellectual properties most definitly have diminished in the past ten years.
You may be too young to notice it, but those of us who actually LIVED through the introduction of VHS/CD era have seen the changes.
The younger new generation of kids have absolutely no repect for it, from my experience.
Many have literally told me "whey the hell would I pay for shit I wanna listen to? (or watch)".
There are few companies that's trying to shift the business models due to the change in society, and few are successful (such as Apple).Then perhaps the concept "Intellectual Property" (a concept traditionally non-existent, if we're gonna start talking about tradition) is flawed in the first place, and should have never existed. It's an obvious consequence of trying to profit from art in a corporative manner (remember, this is the copyright holding companies profiting here and not the artists directly). I think it's for the best that such a concept disappears, but I agree that there's a point of education we're missing (retribution to the artist). Some bands have recently started to change their approach (Radiohead, Nine Inch Nails -the band incited their fans to "steal their records" because of the absurdly high prices in Australia-), appealing their fans in a more direct manner, and in such a way will the rest of the artists have to change their approach. Whether it is good or bad for art is completely subjective (as in the quality of art).

BTW, Apple did indeed change their approach, but by imposition of DRM, which is not something good in my book.

Avatar_notADV
2007-10-28, 11:09
Knight, sit down and think for a second.

Anime is inherently a corporate art form. It doesn't exist in the "wild", save a single exception of one episode produced by one iron man over a period of two years. It's not a matter of greedy, predatory companies finding a poor, starving animator and saying "give us the rights to the masterpiece you've just created and we'll throw you some bread crusts."

Anime can't be produced by the bazaar model. It requires a great deal of rigorous scut work, where the objective is to make many very similar drawings, keeping all of them as close to the character models as possible. NOBODY will do in-betweens for free - and we've had plenty of evidence over the years that even people who get paid to do it, occasionally do quite a terrible job at it. Fact is, good anime hews very closely to a single creative vision (or that of a small number of people, at any rate), but cannot actually be realized by those people alone. If you could somehow convince people to do your in-between work and all of the other assorted tasks associated with the creation of an anime, for free, your charisma is sufficient to take over a small third-world nation and you ought to change jobs. ;p

So there's no point in talking about "intellectual property as a non-existent concept". In a world where a company cannot profit from intellectual property, anime ceases to exist altogether. (Manga is a little different - we have lots of reason to believe that a significant amount of manga would still exist in such a world. But that's because a few people can make a Comic Party, but they can't make a JC Staff or Kyoto Animation!)

Finally, anime companies generally tend to be "good guys" when compared to other commercial entities when it comes to IP. When the RIAA catches you distributing their music, they send you a lawsuit, not a "please stop" letter. Hell, the lion's share of non-encrypted DVDs for retail sale in the US came out of my old employer. ;p (Our head DVD author used to wear a DeCSS t-shirt to work!)

All that said, the real threat isn't from a few guys downloading a show. It's from the creation of a certain perception among fans, and that perception is "why the hell would I spend any money on anime?" The industry can survive the former, but if the latter becomes the public perception, then they're toast.

WanderingKnight
2007-10-28, 11:18
Yes, you make valid points, and I agree overall.

All that said, the real threat isn't from a few guys downloading a show. It's from the creation of a certain perception among fans, and that perception is "why the hell would I spend any money on anime?" The industry can survive the former, but if the latter becomes the public perception, then they're toast.Yes, and I said already I think it is a problem of education, but it is also a problem the industries have partly a responsibility to solve. Like I said, customers have infinitely more power than the industry when it comes to luxury commodities, so it's in the industry's best interest to find out a new way of maintaining and selling anime. They're going to have either to cope with the internet, or to transform it in its new tool, but it is evident that the current way of making money outside Japan is not going to work.

Even so, I don't know why people in the States are complaining so much. If I had local access to official DVD releases, I'd be so happy my pocket would have a hole the size of the damn Niagara falls.

Seska
2007-10-28, 11:59
And he does have a point. The lack of respect for intellectual properties most definitly have diminished in the past ten years.
You may be too young to notice it, but those of us who actually LIVED through the introduction of VHS/CD era have seen the changes.
The younger new generation of kids have absolutely no repect for it, from my experience.
Many have literally told me "whey the hell would I pay for shit I wanna listen to? (or watch)".
There are few companies that's trying to shift the business models due to the change in society, and few are successful (such as Apple).

Indeed, they grown up with P2P Net world. The INet is for them Free all things stuff. Why have i to pay for things, when i can get in on the Net?. They don't know that someone has to bring up the money, for release this "free" stuff for them...

I remember the times of the Commodore Amiga. Where crack groups steals even Games in creation, so for be the first and fastest to spread the stuff. And other ones collect stuff, just for have them but never played it...

guest
2007-10-28, 12:08
I think this is the gap between old generation and the new. This is like old people saying, “Books online? Nah. It is just not as good as the ones in print.” The young generations would be like, “Digital books are the way of future. Get over with it.” It doesn’t sound so pleasant but it is true. In the far future, books in print will be something people only see in museums.

I don’t think it is about the appreciation has diminished because of this internet era. This is the turnover of the era. More importantly, this is the drive that makes all the inventions today. If everyone says like, “the weather is so hot. Just deal with it,” instead of saying, “is there something I can do about it?” We would never have invented air conditioning. Greed or, the desire to improve the unpleasant situations has always been a drive for us to change our environment. It is bad sometimes but it is also good at the same time.

Fansub is illegal and I am not proud of it. Yet, I also think that this is not the direction the industry should take. After RIAA cracked down online music sharing, its sales and profit still keep declining. The real reason behind it is people want diversity instead of listening to the similar music all the time. That just left RIAA with a bad name and still crippled profit. Does anime industry want to go down that path as well?

I really hope the industry, the fansub community, and the consumers can work out something together, like making fansub legal somehow? If not, it is the industry that will have to cave in someday. After all, that is the way human economics works, not the other way around. But both consumers and industry will suffer a lot more than it should. It really doesn’t have to be this way.

Seska
2007-10-28, 12:16
A littel step in the right direction are, to bring these Lechers the idea, how someone work his ass off in years, to bring this piece of stuff together and then some one stole this stuff right away from under his nose, only for get it free... If then thy display the face and emotion of this poor buddy, that would be perfect...

aka "he is building his dream, with this work he can pay his Family the Rent, Gas etc..." "then at the release day, someone stole his work right under his nose" "So he is poor as he was at begining, because the producer left him alone. And his Bills mountain just don't stop to grow, because his family need support trough the daily times"...

because, with the Inet your are living in a cold anonymous world. Where you counterpart are only displayed in letters and icons... We have to bring the Faces back behind these Bin and bytes...

The Inet is the sweet of Parents/Humans work.

relentlessflame
2007-10-28, 14:20
TB's full of anime? That would equal thousands of dollars/euros. That's why the current youth (in my eyes) has a twisted sense of reality. It's just: I WANT X, I GET X. Paying? NO WAY IN HELL. People lost the ability to go without the thing they want, if they can't afford it. Of course i also watch fan sub's once in a while, but i can count the series i watched the last year on one hand. A

On the other hand. The logic, that sales would rise again, without the availability is wrong. If it wasn't for the easy availabilty, demand would decrease to the REAL level again. Which means, 1 or 2 series each year (that's an example) The TB's of anime on a harddisk are merely a product of boredom and easy availability and not real demand.
An interesting question for another discussion would probably be "How would your viewing habits change if you had to buy the DVDs for every series you watched fansubbed?" (Ignoring of course the whole impossibility of the forced scenario, etc.) This is a constraint I placed on myself back when I first started with fansubs, and have pretty much stuck to over the years. I've also adopted that model for everything else "downloadable" -- CDs, games, books, etc. And in recent years, I've extended that to include buying Japanese merchandise when I don't think something will ever get licensed. It's not a philosophy that I preach, and, obviously, not everyone is able or willing to set aside that amount of money (certainly not when you're talking R2s - yikes!) or even shelfspace (I'm in the process of moving, and yeah... boxes, and boxes, and...). But it is an interesting measure of how much anime/stuff you download/watch, and ties to this question of "how much of our interest in anime is simply because we're bored and it's free".

I suppose that "at my age" (I think I'm probably way too young to say that!) I'm at an interesting cross-over point in terms of the attitude towards media, where I embrace both downloading and purchasing on equal terms. But, I enjoy buying the actual physical merchandise and having it on my shelf, because it's a tangible expression of my fandom. To me, just having a file on my computer isn't good enough -- or worse (for me), just knowing it's somewhere "out there" to be streamed to me at horrendous quality when I want it. But if I look 5-10 years younger than me, media seems to be something inherently intangible: it has no physical form, and is constantly changing. Something's the "big thing" at the moment, but in no time everyone's moved on (one of the big problems for converting these fans to DVD buyers, by the way). It's not just that things "move so fast", though (I'm perfectly used to that), it's that, as a consequence, they leave no residuals. Their cellphones, iPods, and Facebook pages are in constant flux. So the idea of buying the DVDs one or two years after the show's aired... the main question you get is "why would I want that?" It's a physical, tangible reminder of a past long-since forgotten -- it's almost like collecting tombstones to some people. Not to mention that the sheer quantity of media being thrown at people makes each individual piece less remarkable; a lot of anime that would have previously been considered great are either ignored or marginalized, and that even within one sub-genre!

So what does that all mean, and what does it have to do with this topic?! Even if you could somehow get rid of fansubs and illegal downloading, the traditional approach still won't work when marketing to the "new generation". I know that even companies in the anime industry (both "foreign" and "domestic") realize this, as they're working to reduce the lag time (both time-to-release, and time between releases) and increase their online portfolio/partnerships. While we're in the transition phase, though, it's sure to be a bit of a bumpy ride.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-28, 16:15
Gah, technically even fansubs are not free. I pay $90/month for the means to obtain it. It sucks having only one internet provider in my area to choose from. They can charge heavy rates :(

Kurapica
2007-10-28, 16:57
This sort of attitude makes me want to invest in the anime industries even less. They have to realize that much of the money that they are making from overseas customers directly stems as a result of the exposure and accesibility to fansubbed anime and manga. Most of the manga and anime I know and paid for, I know through 'illegal net releases'.

In the end the market for animanga will be easily fulfilled. That's why it's important to connect to new blood and capitalize on the appeal it enjoys at the moment. For most of the potential customers, anime is still a minor niche. It's still unordinary for Western people to like anime and manga. And by keeping it out of the mainstream, that attitude will never waver.

tatsuzan
2007-10-28, 17:38
This sort of attitude makes me want to invest in the anime industries even less. They have to realize that much of the money that they are making from overseas customers directly stems as a result of the exposure and accesibility to fansubbed anime and manga. Most of the manga and anime I know and paid for, I know through 'illegal net releases'.


Do you mean, funsubbers HELP anime industries by exposure anime??:heh:
If so, why they don't stop exposure pirated edition after after having understood they do not expect it ? Are they so kind that they can't stop helping others who don't want help ?

Many funsub supporter seems to ignore a simple fact that *Creaters reserve rights to decide exposure their creation or not.*
They can DECIDE, even if their choice is non-correct answer.

It is obvious.
If a results of marketing research say "If distribute Coca-cola free for 1 day, their achievements in the next year will double", can you carry coca-cola out without permission and distribute everyone? No. it must be illegal.

OutPhase
2007-10-28, 18:55
This sort of attitude makes me want to invest in the anime industries even less. They have to realize that much of the money that they are making from overseas customers directly stems as a result of the exposure and accesibility to fansubbed anime and manga.

However, the free advertising of their shows through fan-subbing groups come back and bite them in the ass when it's time to release the DVDs. Some people decide not to buy the DVDs because they are "too expensive", and they are getting subtitles, the original language it was in, a dub, DVD extras, and for some DVDs reference notes. To me, an average of 25$ +tax doesn't seem like a big price-tag considering the distributors went through a lot for crap to bring it overseas.

Other people won't buy it since they have the fansubs downloaded and carry around a "what's the point?" view on the release.

Most of the manga and anime I know and paid for, I know through 'illegal net releases'.

I know them through "illegal net releases" because I knew them through word of mouth about the series before the first episode was even aired in Japan.

Altema
2007-10-28, 19:40
^I have a friend who downloads anime, burns them onto DVDs, puts them in a large CD case, and never watches them. He just collects them.

That sounds like me and my friend O_O. I plan to watch it when I have more time :).

Kurapica
2007-10-28, 20:33
Do you mean, funsubbers HELP anime industries by exposure anime??:heh:
If so, why they don't stop exposure pirated edition after after having understood they do not expect it ? Are they so kind that they can't stop helping others who don't want help ?Um, yes. One of the main reasons why people know anime and manga is through online distribution and accessibility. Fora like animesuki, narutofan, bleachasylum etc. thrive on this notion. Also, a lot of fansubbers purposely sub anime in the hope to bring it to a broader audience. When a series gets licensed they drop it.

However, the free advertising of their shows through fan-subbing groups come back and bite them in the ass when it's time to release the DVDs. Some people decide not to buy the DVDs because they are "too expensive", and they are getting subtitles, the original language it was in, a dub, DVD extras, and for some DVDs reference notes. To me, an average of 25$ +tax doesn't seem like a big price-tag considering the distributors went through a lot for crap to bring it overseas.Truth be told, that's another concern I have with the practice of licensing. Not only are they very slow to release their product, which isn't even all detrimental, but their price of the final product is disproportionally 'expensive'. The margin of appreciation for the (unnecessary) dub, the subtitles, the extra's, etc. gets smaller when you'll have to pay 30 bucks for 4 episodes. Especially if you consider that one season often consists of 26 episodes. For most consumers, regardless of the existance of fansubs, that's too much.

Other people won't buy it since they have the fansubs downloaded and carry around a "what's the point?" view on the release.Those people strike me as people who wouldn't purchase the product anyway. They are oblivious to the difference between watching an anime on a 17" inch screen or at the comfort of a couch and a television.

Avatar_notADV
2007-10-28, 21:10
Um, yes. One of the main reasons why people know anime and manga is through online distribution and accessibility. Fora like animesuki, narutofan, bleachasylum etc. thrive on this notion. Also, a lot of fansubbers purposely sub anime in the hope to bring it to a broader audience. When a series gets licensed they drop it.

I'm sorry, but if you think that fansubs are necessary so that people can find out about shounen fighting anime, there's something very wrong with your mental processes.

"How would they know it was popular over here if not for fansubs?" Okay, I could possibly buy that argument on something bizarre, like Yakitate Japan. But if there's someone who's reviewing anime at a licensing company, and they can look at a show like Bleach or Naruto and not INSTANTLY KNOW that it will sell great, they should be fired. I mean, come on!

-MotokoAoyama-
2007-10-28, 21:12
I agree that the producers ultimately have the right to request America's attention in stopping "illegal net releases", but I don't think America would pay much attention to this request simply because they are too busy with dealing with other issues, like illegal music downloads that are actually affecting America's own music industry.

Let's just say that America does pay attention to the request and fansubs are really terminated; the implications may not be so positive for the anime producers. Yes, they have the right to do this, but this may not yield to a positive result. I, for one, will just stop watching anime, thus stop buying anime products, if there are no fansubs. You see, I don't mind buying what I watch, but the thing is, I don't know if something is worth buying until I've had a preview of it.

I think what would be better is if anime airing in Japan gets subbed the day after and released on an anime channel of sorts in America. If that's the case, I'll definitely subscribe to the channel, thus be able to pay for the anime I watch as it is released. However, that seems a bit too...unrealistic.

Either way, I think that fansubs actually do bring more profit to the anime industry, but if producers insist on taking them away, they can, but then they'll just have to suffer the loss.

Altema
2007-10-28, 22:39
Those people strike me as people who wouldn't purchase the product anyway. They are oblivious to the difference between watching an anime on a 17" inch screen or at the comfort of a couch and a television.

Personally, I'm not oblivious to it. It's just a hell of a lot cheaper to watch fansubs at the comfort of a couch and a television than it is to buy the DVD and watch it at the comfort of a couch and a television.

relentlessflame
2007-10-28, 23:03
Personally, I'm not oblivious to it. It's just a hell of a lot cheaper to watch fansubs at the comfort of a couch and a television than it is to buy the DVD and watch it at the comfort of a couch and a television.
Since you've been harping on this point since the beginning of the thread, I have to admit that I'm not sure what you're going for by continually bragging here about being cheap. You've made it abundantly clear that you don't give a damn about the anime industry, and you're only here for the free ride. And you've also made it a point to point out that there are others like you. But what you haven't established is, why should anyone care? Am I to believe that if, all of a sudden, fansubs were to cease to exist, the floodgates to your wallet would open? Most unlikely. If all you do is take and never give back to the industry, you're just a simple leech, and your anime fandom is, quite frankly, irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You're a net zero, financially. I'm not sure that being a cheap leecher is something worth bragging about -- it's not like it takes any special skills, and it's not exactly flattering. Just like those people with those huge binders full of fansubs they're so proud of -- my reaction would be something like "wow, aren't you special..." I've heard of wanting to be the "unheard voice" in a debate, but not typically the voice that no one has any sympathy for. :heh:

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, just saying that I don't get it.

Vexx
2007-10-28, 23:13
Okay... that was funny :)

Kyuu
2007-10-28, 23:41
The solution is simple -- watch more on TV -- in English. :D:D:D:D

Altema
2007-10-28, 23:51
Since you've been harping on this point since the beginning of the thread, I have to admit that I'm not sure what you're going for by continually bragging here about being cheap. You've made it abundantly clear that you don't give a damn about the anime industry, and you're only here for the free ride. And you've also made it a point to point out that there are others like you. But what you haven't established is, why should anyone care? Am I to believe that if, all of a sudden, fansubs were to cease to exist, the floodgates to your wallet would open? Most unlikely. If all you do is take and never give back to the industry, you're just a simple leech, and your anime fandom is, quite frankly, irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You're a net zero, financially. I'm not sure that being a cheap leecher is something worth bragging about -- it's not like it takes any special skills, and it's not exactly flattering. Just like those people with those huge binders full of fansubs they're so proud of -- my reaction would be something like "wow, aren't you special..." I've heard of wanting to be the "unheard voice" in a debate, but not typically the voice that no one has any sympathy for. :heh:

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, just saying that I don't get it.

Is there a point as to why anyone should care about anyone's opinion? Most people are fairly opinionated and stand ground on their opinions about many issues. I doubt they TRULY cared about what you had to say.

And no, I never pointed out that I don't care about the anime industry. That's just an inference made due to my comments (I don't blame you though). I really can't "support" the anime industry in any way possible. I can inform friends of what's good and they could go buy it, but I am financially unable to do so. That's about the extent of how I can "support" the anime industry.

Question. It's obvious that being a leech isn't worth bragging about, but is the alternative really worth bragging about? So you can buy things, so what? Buying things does not take skill.

I stopped seriously commenting on this thread because I don't believe that anyone in this thread is really informed of how things work. There are legal issues, money issues, international economics, marketing, etc. I don't believe that anyone is really informed about all those issues. Therefore, I see lots of logical fights here, but nothing solid.

But honestly, my most recent comment wasn't an attempt to brag about being cheap. It was an honest statement. To say that people are oblivious to the comfort of watching DVDs on a couch + TV is a bit silly when you can do it with fansubs.

I apologize for any hostility that I have brought to this thread.

relentlessflame
2007-10-29, 00:23
Question. It's obvious that being a leech isn't worth bragging about, but is the alternative really worth bragging about? So you can buy things, so what? Buying things does not take skill. I wasn't implying that buying things is worth bragging about, and it certainly does not take skill (only money). But at least the industry has a small reason to care about you; it gives you a position worth defending on this issue. You're not simply a leech, you're a paying customer. It's not something worth bragging about, but it's at least something that has worth.

I stopped seriously commenting on this thread because I don't believe that anyone in this thread is really informed of how things work. There are legal issues, money issues, international economics, marketing, etc. I don't believe that anyone is really informed about all those issues. Therefore, I see lots of logical fights here, but nothing solid.Well, that's a nice opinion. Not sure what you expected; this is not a simple issue. Even the "experts" don't have a clear and easy answer that can address all the different facets (if they did, we wouldn't have this problem). And, of course, whether you realize it or not, people who work and have worked in the industry are both reading and posting in this thread. Again, I'm not sure what great insight would have qualified as being "really informed of how things work", but I guess there's no sense dwelling on it.

-MotokoAoyama-
2007-10-29, 00:27
The solution is simple -- watch more on TV -- in English. :D:D:D:D

The problem with that is, anime come out way too slowly on TV, and of course, it's in English, which to me is...not that great. I prefer subtitles.

JustInn14
2007-10-29, 00:28
The solution is simple -- watch more on TV -- in English. :D:D:D:D

Love too.. But it's all crap! :mad:

Altema
2007-10-29, 00:32
I don't really see purchasing anime as giving you any position in terms of defending this issue. If your opinions are valid and logical, I don't see why would purchases have anything to do with it.

I expected a little more than a logical battle that leads nowhere. Granted, I have not kept up after a certain page (forgot the number), but what I did read was nothing more than a well thought out logical battle. But logic is logic and it certainly isn't always reflective of real life.

And yeah, I do realize that people that have worked or do work in this industry have been reading and posting. I figured as much. I've worked in the industry for a brief time and I still don't have a solid opinion.

We can talk in PM if there is anything left to discuss. I feel the clutter growing :(.

cyth
2007-10-29, 06:51
I don't really see purchasing anime as giving you any position in terms of defending this issue. If your opinions are valid and logical, I don't see why would purchases have anything to do with it.For years fansubbers have been trying to establish legitimate ground for their "products". The fansub debate has, for the most part, been rotating around the redundancy of the DMCA and the act of stealing copyright property. It took off when the American anime industry was bringing over more titles than ever before (2001), reached its peak in 2003 (with the AnimeJunkies drama) and ended with a last spur of new american anime distribution licences in 2004. Looking at the debate from the side of the law, fansubbers were on one side and the industry on the other. I think both sides are now a step closer together. The fact that Bandai USA and Kadokawa brought over Suzumiya Haruhi and addressed illegal video sharing communities to spread the word and purchase the DVDs means that they were tapping into the market potential fansub watchers have to offer. It was an honest two-way communication between the fans and the industry.
A fan who purchases his anime has every right to address his disappointments and expectations, while leechers with no financial input can only talk, but they won't be listened to, no matter how logical their arguments sound. This, of course, defies logic itself, but as you say...[...] logic is logic and it certainly isn't always reflective of real life.

Kurapica
2007-10-29, 07:27
I'm sorry, but if you think that fansubs are necessary so that people can find out about shounen fighting anime, there's something very wrong with your mental processes.

"How would they know it was popular over here if not for fansubs?" Okay, I could possibly buy that argument on something bizarre, like Yakitate Japan. But if there's someone who's reviewing anime at a licensing company, and they can look at a show like Bleach or Naruto and not INSTANTLY KNOW that it will sell great, they should be fired. I mean, come on!Sigh, I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to make people understand. The gist of my argument can be found in my previous post (if read with comprehensive interpretation skills).

christinemarie
2007-10-29, 08:27
Well why Japan would bother with their deman from America they can just use the DVD version (Since it's better than the Fansubbed-TV version) to profit when an anime is on hype. Fansubbers help Japan distribute goods all over the world and if they are interested, buying spree would start and try hoarding for anime stuffs. Well if an anime is licensed then that's the time the fan-sub would stop, though not in other case like I said fansubbed helps them a lot.
Well they can catch anyone that would try to sell pirated goods at best and have him/her pay up.

Anachronism
2007-10-29, 09:51
Anime studios should take a look at what U.S. television studios have started doing recently, especially NBC. You can watch every episode of most of NBC's shows online for free with some advertisements. If fansubbers can get subtitled episodes out within days of their airing in Japan then there's no reason why the studios themselves or a hired partner can't get ad supported subtitled episodes out there. It would also help sales if they were to reduce the cost of licensing these shows. It's pretty hard to convince myself to buy four episodes of an anime on a DVD for $30 when I can buy an entire season of most other shows for that much. It's also hard for me to spend that much on what is a dying and old format. While DVDs will always be around just as there's still an extremely small group of people who buy movies on VHS, with HD-DVD and Blu Ray gaining ground and HDTVs getting cheaper every month I feel like I should be getting a lot more for $30 than four standard definition episodes.

cyth
2007-10-29, 10:15
Anime studios should take a look at what U.S. television studios have started doing recently, especially NBC. You can watch every episode of most of NBC's shows online for free with some advertisements.You know what's wrong with NBC's streaming service? It blocks streaming to non-U.S. connections. Us guys from Europe have to download our Journeyman and Heroes episodes through illicit means, just like you do anime. Imagine some Japanese streaming site adopting a similar approach to distribute their anime.I feel like I should be getting a lot more for $30 than four standard definition episodes.Yet anime is a niché hobby in the U.S. and you expect prices fitting mainstream titles...

By the way, you can get anime for a lot less than $30 (DVDPacific (http://www.dvdpacific.com)). Most of the DVD singles I get are priced from $16-$18. If you want them a lot cheaper (like $5 a pop) just be on the lookout for TRSI (http://www.rightstuf.com/) sales.

Messerschmitt_Bf-109
2007-10-29, 10:33
Lol, at Amazon you can find used DVDs for cheap.

aohige
2007-10-29, 11:06
You know what's wrong with NBC's streaming service? It blocks streaming to non-U.S. connections. Us guys from Europe have to download our Journeyman and Heroes episodes through illicit means, just like you do anime. Imagine some Japanese streaming site adopting a similar approach to distribute their anime.Yet anime is a niché hobby in the U.S. and you expect prices fitting mainstream titles...


Imagine?
It's already implimented.

Gyao, that's streaming Gundam 00 currently, blocks foreign IPs.
They are ad-based free streaming site officially contracted to air some TV shows including anime.
Biglobe also has free streaming, but their free stream broadcast are not IP restricted.

Also, about the price... There is already a service called Bandai Channel, that offers TONS of anime for online viewing for pretty cheap.
There are multiple diffrent providers for Bandai Channel, and they all work diffrently. Some are subscription based, and some are pay-per-view.
And many of them do not block foreign IPs.
Check out their site for full listings. (http://www.b-ch.com/cgi-bin/contents/ttl/jpchar_list.cgi)
471 anime titles, 6367 episodes total. And they do have free episodes available to get you hooked.

cyth
2007-10-29, 11:08
Gyao, that's streaming Gundam 00 currently, blocks foreign IPs.
They are ad-based free streaming site officially contracted to air some TV shows including anime.
Biglobe has free streaming, but their free stream broadcast are not IP restricted.I actually know about those. <_<;; I had to use a Japanese proxy one time to get to the Gundam 00 promo. orz

Anachronism
2007-10-29, 11:14
You know what's wrong with NBC's streaming service? It blocks streaming to non-U.S. connections. Us guys from Europe have to download our Journeyman and Heroes episodes through illicit means, just like you do anime. Imagine some Japanese streaming site adopting a similar approach to distribute their anime.Yet anime is a niché hobby in the U.S. and you expect prices fitting mainstream titles...

By the way, you can get anime for a lot less than $30 (DVDPacific (http://www.dvdpacific.com)). Most of the DVD singles I get are priced from $16-$18. If you want them a lot cheaper (like $5 a pop) just be on the lookout for TRSI (http://www.rightstuf.com/) sales.

My point was that they should have English subtitled episodes ad supported and streaming for English speaking audiences as a measure to prevent piracy due to fansubs, not that there should be streaming services in Japanese only available to Japanese audiences.

I already know about DVD Pacific and look out for Rightstuf sales but thanks any way.

aohige
2007-10-29, 11:19
My point was that they should have English subtitled episodes ad supported and streaming for English speaking audiences as a measure to prevent piracy due to fansubs, not that there should be streaming services in Japanese only available to Japanese audiences.

I already know about DVD Pacific and look out for Rightstuf sales but thanks any way.

Does NBC broadcast their shows to oversea IPs subtitled in other languages?
You brought up NBC as comparison, so they should, right?

If they don't, how are they ANY diffrent from Japanese streaming sites?
Japanese streaming sites broadcast shows in Japanese to Japanese audiences only, by restricting IP.
NBC streaming site broadcast shows in English to American audiences only, by restricting IP.

It's exactly the same thing.

4as
2007-10-29, 11:34
lol, I like that! Lets just stop the whole fansubbing, ALL OF IT, for 2 years and then see there faces.
"What the...? Theres absolutely no interest in new anime for past 2 years! WHERE DID WE GO WRONG?!"

Fansub helped promote anime outside Japan. For all that we done for them now they turning there backs on us...

aohige
2007-10-29, 11:38
lol, I like that! Lets just stop the whole fansubbing, ALL OF IT, for 2 years and then see there faces.
"What the...? Theres absolutely no interest in new anime for past 2 years! WHERE DID WE GO WRONG?!"

Fansub helped promote anime outside Japan. For all that we done for them now they turning there backs on us...

I'm sorry but if you fail to see both the beneficial side and downside of the issue, you're just as blind as those you accuse to be blind.

Anachronism
2007-10-29, 11:48
Does NBC broadcast their shows to oversea IPs subtitled in other languages?
You brought up NBC as comparison, so they should, right?

If they don't, how are they ANY diffrent from Japanese streaming sites?
Japanese streaming sites broadcast shows in Japanese to Japanese audiences only, by restricting IP.
NBC streaming site broadcast shows in English to American audiences only, by restricting IP.

It's exactly the same thing.

I'm not saying I support NBC's decision to block foreign IPs. My point was that NBC saw a problem with piracy in the U.S. and came up with a reasonable solution. In NBC's situation the target group was U.S. residents and in this situation U.S. residents are also the target group.

Vexx
2007-10-29, 11:55
ah, globalization.... only *really* for the multi-national corporates, not for the consumer :)

4as
2007-10-29, 11:55
I'm sorry but if you fail to see both the beneficial side and downside of the issue, you're just as blind as those you accuse to be blind.
Ok... I dont know what are you talking about. :S
I'm being a bit sarcastic here, though stoping whole fansub for 2 years would give a definitive answer whether fansubbing really hurst or helps industry ;0