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TigerII
2007-11-20, 02:04
Edit by rf: Continued from this thread, after it was revealed that the DMCA notices being sent by Odex weren't intentional. TigerII's post follows.

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What I said, maybe this was a test, and after the results they are saying mistake. I still say the future is clowdy. What other things besides torrents are there to use?

westbluef
2007-11-20, 02:12
Well, theres IRC, FTP and um Darknets.

minhtam1638
2007-11-20, 02:14
Speaking of which, has the Rizon IRC channel been targeted yet?

TigerII
2007-11-20, 02:16
....damn...what the hell are those(I am in that computer illiterate group that was posted by an earlier user)?

Vexx
2007-11-20, 02:33
edit: see quarkboy and coderjoe's posts --- they're much clearer than mine :)

If you visit tucows.com where they have thousands of freeware/shareware packages you can find all sorts of clients that use these protocols.

A darknet is a private virtual network where users connect only to people they trust.
Business use encrypted connections to do this sort of thing (VPN) but the concept is similar.

Much better explanations can be found on Wikipedia ... I'm wasting time that I could be playing Hellgate typing here :)

Coderjoe
2007-11-20, 02:55
IRC (internet relay channel) is just a protocol for handling chat and file transfers. People have written irc automatic servers that will spit up files (bot servers) on request. Its been around since before the Web (1992ish). If you've seen mIRC or Bitch, those are IRC clients (like you can use IE, Firefox, Opera, etc for HTTP).

IRC was not really intended to handle file transfers. It wasn't until later that the Direct Client-to-Client (DCC) file transfer method was added. It still has issues when it comes to people behind NAT routers that want to run a bot.

UseNet is one of the oldest 'filesharing systems' using a really lumbering method of replicating forums across the universe and you browse through directories looking for the files you might want or post in threads (again, a pre-Web sort of text-based forum that can also be used to trade files).

Usenet also was not originally intended to be used for file transfers. One advantage here is that someone could still make an indexing site which stores NZB files that tell a usenet client program exactly which posts they need in order to get the files. One downside is that decent servers are a pay-for service, and plenty of people won't be willing to pay that fee. (even though it can be as low as $10/month up to $25/month for a decent unlimited service)

Quarkboy
2007-11-20, 02:55
....damn...what the hell are those(I am in that computer illiterate group that was posted by an earlier user)?

They are "Internet Relay Chat" "File Transfer Protocol" and various shady peer2peer networks.

You forgot the other good way to get anime, usenet (although it's not really free).

Hmm, I feel peppy right now so perhaps I'll type a long off-topic informational post about these various distribution methods:

In no particular order:

1. IRC: This is one of the oldest protocols on the internet, and designed essentially as a chat server which client computers can connect to. Organized into "channels", you can join a channel and chat via text to other people in the channel, or private message other client users directly. Eventually various extra features were added enabling people to connect directly between clients and transfer files, etc. (so-called fservs and DCC). Relatively recently (perhaps 5 years ago) newer, more effecient methods of distributing files called XDCC started being used, where automated clients called "bots" are used as file repositories, and sending messages to them allows you to download the files they have, or give you a file listing, etc. It also allows efficient queuing for high-demand files.
Most big fansub groups still have IRC channels and XDCC bots of some sort for distributing their work, in addition to bittorrent. The most popular IRC network for anime is called Rizon (and historically, aniverse and originally dalnet were the biggest networks).
2. FTP: One of the original internet protocols, designed only for transferring files from a server computer to a client computer. Although ftp's were popular many many years ago for a time, the difficulty of queuing downloads and managing bandwith made them a poor solution for increasing demand, even with complex quota systems. I am not aware of any groups offering free ftp access to their files regularly, although you can find some ftps advertised on certain IRC channels.
3. Usenet: The third and final original internet protocol before the www(okay, I'm neglecting Gopher, but no one wants to remember that one). The original distributed message board, it was designed as a global, -decentralized forum, and was originally only for text. Usenet servers would propagate new messages around to each other, and users could connect to them and download messages in various topics they subscribe to. It wasn't too long until people came up with ways to share files using usenet, by essentially converting the binary data into ascii text, and splitting up this large amount of text into many many small little messages, and uploading it all to usenet. Many topics devoted to these binary postings (the alt.binaries.XXX groups) appeared and all kinds of things have been posted there for many years, including anime. In fact, some of the first anime I ever downloaded was through usenet, back in 1995 or so.
At the moment, a pretty large amount of anime gets posted to usenet, although far from everything that is released. Usenet servers with long "retention", i.e. how long messages last, are not free, and often cost $20 or so a month for a certain amount of speed or certain total download size. Plus, you never really know what is going to be posted (although you can request things, and hope someone feels like being nice to you).
4. Various peer2peer networks. Napster might be long dead, and gnutella is defunct, but back in the day they had some anime on them. Now the popular peer2peer networks with some anime availability are edonkey, emule (which combines the edonkey network with another one), overnet, and probably a few more I'm not aware of. Unfortunately these networks tend to be full of spam, trojans, viruses and warez/malware, and the anime on them is less common and can take a very long time to download or find.
5. Japanese peer2peer networks. You won't find any english subbed anime on these networks at all, but they exist and can be useful, and are, of course, the source of raws for most fansubbers. The original one, Winny, is dying a slow death right now. Share, the current choice, is the most popular, but with it's encryption being broken people are starting to turn to the newest, and still somewhat untested one called perfect dark.

Occaisionally you can find anime on direct download places like websites, or file sharing sites like mediafire, megaupload, or rapidshare. But there is no centralized repository and most groups do not distribute this way, plus files disappear after a very short time.

Vexx
2007-11-20, 03:25
Thanks for the expansion and qualifications... wasn't really intending on being chronologically driven in explaining ... just a rough shorthand for those who might turn to them in the future.

Quarkboy
2007-11-20, 03:36
Thanks for the expansion and qualifications... wasn't really intending on being chronologically driven in explaining ... just a rough shorthand for those who might turn to them in the future.

I was writing the post as you posted yours, so don't take it as a one-upping or anything. I'm just naturally more verbose :).

GHDpro
2007-11-20, 03:46
1) IRC
This works, but queueing for xdcc's/fserve's is kind of a drag. You have to join the channel, find the right xdcc/fserve, find the right pack/folder on the xdcc/fserve, issue request for a download and then hope your turn comes quickly. Of course, when it works, it does work pretty well and if the xdcc/fserve has a good connection it can max out mine.

2) FTP (also HTTP DDL)
Back in the days this was an even greater pain, because of quota's etc. At least with xdcc/fserve you can still browse and queue files even if all slots are currently filled (unless the queue is also full). And with anime now being a lot popular, I don't think FTPs will work anymore.

3) Usenet
My favorite alternative :) The only downside is that the process of downloading is a bit involved (if you don't use NZB sites) and the good servers are pay only. But if you are willing to check it out, some cheap providers that support PayPal may be found here: http://www.ngprovider.com/
See also this post I made: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1261590#post1261590

4) Other P2P
I'm not sure how secure any other common P2P system is. I don't think eMule etc, will be any more secure than BitTorrent is really.

5) Japanese P2P
Works great, if you're looking for raws that is. Fansubs is another matter. Also beware of fakes and viruses on Share.

Access
2007-11-20, 04:10
Talk about obscure protocols:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotline_Connect
This was in use back before the whole digisubbing thing started, and overlapped with some of the first-generation groups. I don't know if it can be even considered today, though, interesting thinking back.

Ascaloth
2007-11-20, 04:11
A more pertinent question; how much security do these alternative offer? Is it possible for BayTSP to compromise them?

Being situated in the area of most risk (you know what I mean), I'm especially concerned about this.

Quarkboy
2007-11-20, 04:54
A more pertinent question; how much security do these alternative offer? Is it possible for BayTSP to compromise them?

Being situated in the area of most risk (you know what I mean), I'm especially concerned about this.

Um, with most of these options with the exception of peer2peer networks, you don't upload anything, only download. So unless they hack into the ftp server or irc bot that is doing the file sending, there is no way for them to know who downloaded what. That doesn't stop them from doing really incidious things like spoofing an XDCC bot with fake files and trying to trick people into trying to download stuff from their fake bot. It probably wouldn't hold up in court but it would let them know who to watch.
Usenet is slightly different, although I somehow suspect that the companies that provide usenet access are not going to release any data they might have on who downloaded what, since the second that reaches the news they would go out of business :).
So basically those other methods are safe for downloaders, but much LESS safe for uploaders. And in any case in most countries except the US it is a lot harder to go after people for downloading copyrighted material than uploading it.

GHDpro
2007-11-20, 04:55
A more pertinent question; how much security do these alternative offer? Is it possible for BayTSP to compromise them?

Being situated in the area of most risk (you know what I mean), I'm especially concerned about this.
As a downloader options #1, #3 and #5 (as per my or Quarkboy's post) should be pretty safe. That doesn't mean they can't compromise them, but it'll be harder for them (#5) or they just go after the uploaders (#1 and #3) instead of the downloaders.

Option #2 depends on if logs are kept and if BayTSP ever gets their hands on such logs.

Option #4 is probably not safe from BayTSP.

Access
2007-11-20, 05:46
For hotline lots of servers had agreements where you had to click 'I accept' before being allowed to the server. You had to agree that you were not a member of any kind of law enforcement, or any user acting on the behalf of a CO. (I doubt that alone would hold up to much real protection, though)

Then, some servers had downloading for most everything turned off by default, and would require that you do something in order to gain full downloading privilages. For instance, you may have had to download a video that was copyrighted by the server owner. This video was market 'absolutely not for distribution-- copyright so-and-so' and it was the only file guests could download. There might be some graphic text in the video itself, and that graphic text was a password that would allow you to create a real account.

This way, an enforcement agent would first have to engage in a real copyright violation to gain download access and see what was on the server. If that agent then later tried to sue the server owner, for copyright violation, the server owner could turn around and file a counter-complaint for copyright violation since the file he had to download to even get on the site was copyrighted by the server owner.

Actual law enforcement might just laugh at such a scheme, but a corporation wants to avoid being sued by individuals -- a corporation suing an individual is not an easy case to win before a jury, but an individual suing a corporation is an easier case to win, with greater potential for damages. If a corporation has to violate copyright law in order to continue with an investigation that may not even yield any results, they might just give up and go crack down somewhere else.

lamer_de
2007-11-20, 06:02
Usenet is already under attack, as it's obviously become way too popular to get by unnoticed. Especially in Germany usenet was explicitely and aggressively advertised by some companies as "get your illegal downloads of music, games, movies here with full 16mbit speed", which the record companies didn't find too funny and promptly sued. Admitted, that's only in Germany, but it happens in the US as well.

nzb services have been sued in 2006 already, but of course they're hard to target as the next site will pop up another day:
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/84265/mpaa-sues-torrent-and-usenet-search-sites.html

Which is why they're sueing the news providers directly now:
http://www.news.com/8301-13578_3-9798715-38.html

CU,
lamer_de

tbl
2007-11-20, 06:09
A Bittorrent server in Sweden is the way to go for the time being.

Coderjoe
2007-11-20, 06:19
A Bittorrent server in Sweden is the way to go for the time being.

That only covers the tracker, not the users. A tracker without users is useless. (This whole thing started with users getting DMCA notices due to bittorrent activity)

tbl
2007-11-20, 06:32
That only covers the tracker, not the users. A tracker without users is useless. (This whole thing started with users getting DMCA notices due to bittorrent activity)Yeah, I realised that after I posted, but I don't think BT is going to be stopped by targeting individual users. Though, then again, all it would take is for every ISP to start throttling BT.

mist2123
2007-11-20, 06:38
an Ftp server in Iran :)

GHDpro
2007-11-20, 06:52
I know usenet is also under attack; but it's only the usenet providers/nzb sites/uploaders who are getting into trouble. As a downloader, you should be pretty safe.

an Ftp server in Iran :)

Ah. How? Afaik most Iranians are limited to dialup-speeds as instructed by their government.

Slice of Life
2007-11-20, 07:41
I'm sure intelligence reports suggest that Iran is working on Trackers of Mass Copyright Destruction. :)


I'm also (seriously) sure that people are worrying too much. Alternatives will grow like mushrooms once they are needed.

cyth
2007-11-20, 08:12
Getting an IRC client, connecting to an IRC network and joining a #channel is something anybody can do, I believe. The biggest problem to picking up IRC for downloading anime is getting to know how the channel works.

Newbies need to know two basic guidelines to finding anime on IRC:


Read the TOPIC
xdcc send #[insert pack number]




Reading topics
Your goal is to find information in the #channel topic that will direct you to XDCC bots that hold anime. I've joined a few channels of a few random groups that are currently listed on AnimeSuki's top page. Let's take a look at them:


#animeone (at Rizon - irc.rizon.net)
http://shrani.si/f/3t/Z1/2Sfp7fxq/sfsfds.jpg
See what it says in the topic? XDCC: http://xrl.us/aonex Opening that link will take you to a site with all the information you need. For example, under the Archive section you'll find two bot names AonE|Urd and AonE|Mars with their respective file lists. Choose the file you want, go back to the IRC channel, and private message the bot with the file you want, i.e. the username AonE|Urd with the words xdcc send #1 for [AnY-AonE]_Ah__My_Goddess_-_Promo_[D373BE47].avi

==================================================

#as-fansubs (at Rizon - irc.rizon.net)
http://shrani.si/f/K/8K/3ZkNOU3m/gfhdfhd.jpg
See what it says in the topic? Trigger: !list, !dcii06 OK, so you don't want to download D.C. II ~Da Capo~ 06, you want to download episode 01. Well, type that trigger !dcii06 in the channel anyway! You'll get two responses by doing so:

-ShinkuKai- XviD: /msg [Sekai]Archive xdcc send #71 /msg charger xdcc send #261
-ShinkuKai- h264: /msg [Sekai]Archive xdcc send #72 /msg charger xdcc send #260

Typing /msg [Sekai]Archive xdcc send #72 in the channel does the same as private messaging the username [Sekai]Archive with the words xdcc send #72. That will get you D.C. II episode 06. But we want 01, right? We can assume that [Sekai]Archive is carrying more than just one file. Message it with the words xdcc list. In this case, the bot gives us the following reply:

-[Sekai]Archive- XDCC LIST Denied. Get pack #1 for packlist

A pretty straightforward instruction, right? OK, let's type xdcc send #1. The bot sends us a text file. Look into your IRC download folder. Opening it will give you a full list of what [Sekai]Archive is carrying. Search for your beloved D.C. II 01 file listing:

#31 32x [174M] [ASF]_Da_Capo_II_-_Episode 01_(Xvid_704x396)_[702C500A].avi
#32 88x [175M] [ASF]_Da_Capo_II_-_Episode_01_(h264_1024x576)_[12390CEC].mkv

Do you want the AVI or the MKV? Let's go with the MKV: Message [Sekai]Archive back with the words xdcc send #32

==================================================

#catchphrase (at Rizon - irc.rizon.net)
http://shrani.si/f/2J/b8/1OL7cXaZ/ysgydfgydf.jpg
See what it says in the topic? Majin Tantei Nogami Neuro 01 & 02 released: !neuro01, !neuro02. Triggers again. For example, type !neuro01 in the channel to get the info this trigger offers:

-[Yako]- Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro [XviD] (186MB) /msg Ashes|Ruby xdcc send 79 - /msg Ashes|Yellow xdcc send 41
-jocAWAY- Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro [XviD] (186MB) DDL: http://vs248022.vserver.de/sexxl/%5bcatchphrase%5d%20Majin%20Tantei%20Nougami%20Neu ro%20-%2001%20(704x400%20XviD)%5b838F9DFE%5d.avi
-[Yako]- Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro [H264][HD] (232MB) /msg Ashes|Ruby xdcc send 89 || /msg Ashes|Yellow xdcc send #46

Ho-ho... We can choose between two bots and also a DDL link! Again, pick the episode, pick the format, pick the bot/username carrying it, message them with the words xdcc send #[insert pack number]. I'm going to download Neuro 02 in H264 HD, so I'm gonna have to message Ashes|Yellow with the words xdcc send #46

==================================================

#froth-bite (at Rizon - irc.rizon.net)
http://shrani.si/f/9/3r/24qXdA8X/fgjjdfhg.jpg
See what it says in the topic? www.Froth-Bite.com This group has a website! Check it out. In the menu on the left you'll find a section named Releases -bot lists Go to that section where you'll find all the xdcc lists of all their XDCC bots. I'm personally aiming for their Sky Girls episode 11, so I'm going to message F_B|CD-Pengu with the words xdcc send #12 Wee~

==================================================

#shinsen-subs (at Rizon - irc.rizon.net)
http://shrani.si/f/C/lB/1kUV1syb/sdfsgydfg.jpg
See what it says in the topic? XDCC Bots: http://bot.page.us Go to that page, find your file, find the bot that's carrying it, go back to the IRC channel, message the bot with the xdcc send #[insert pack number] command, and you're done. Personally, I want their latest Tsubasa Chronicle - Tokyo Revelations 01 episode, so I'll search their bot listing site with the keyword 'Tsubasa' and use their handy Clipboard command to get the bot command /msg SHS|Sheska-chan xdcc send #378 automatically. I'll just paste that into the IRC channel and get the wanted file.

==================================================

#sprocket-hole (at Rizon - irc.rizon.net)
http://shrani.si/f/8/dL/1VhWI8pM/dsfgydgfdf.jpg
See what it says in the topic? | /msg Sprocket|Random xdcc get 13 (7 PAS) 14 (4 WS AVI/Xvid) 15 (4 WS MKV/H264) 16-18 (1-3 WSv2 Xvid), 19-21 (1-3 WSv2 H.264). Now, I know this might be a bit hard to understand for any newbie, but let's tackle this anyway.
Sprocket Hole Fansubs don't release anything else than CLANNAD at the moment, so it's safe to assume anything you download from Sprocket|Random will be CLANNAD. The listed xdcc get command does the same as xdcc send! What about all the randomness after that, you ask? Fansubbers like to use abbreviations in topics because topic space is limited. Sprocket Hole Fansubs used the abbreviation 7 PAS for CLANNAD episode 07, and 4 WS AVI/Xvid for their WideScreen/AVI/Xvid version of CLANNAD episode 04. The list of abbreviations goes on, but the important thing to us is the pack number beside these abbreviations. For 7 PAS we have 13, for 4 WS AVI/Xvid we have 14. So if I want CLANNAD 07, I'll just send a message xdcc get 13 to Sprocket|Random and receive the file.

If you want to avoid the confusion with all these abbreviations, you know the bot name (Sprocket|Random), message it with the words xdcc list and get the full list of the files it carries.

==================================================

#ureshii (at Rizon - irc.rizon.net)
http://shrani.si/f/3k/YG/4Q4vhebv/dsfgdsgds.jpg
See what it says in the topic? http://ureshii-fansub.org If you open their website you'll see a section in their navigation bar called Distro (abbr. for Distribution!). You'll find a few links there: Their scarywater BitTorrent tracker site, DDL from Anime Treasure, and also an XDCC bot listing for Ureshii|Mr_T. Clicking that last link will take you to the XDCC list site with all the files you can imagine. So if I want to download their Dennou Coil 20, I need to remember the file pack number, which would be #56 at this moment. I go back to the IRC channel, message Ureshii|Mr_T with the words xdcc send #56 and receive the file.

==================================================

#a.f.k. (at EnterTheGame - irc.enterthegame.com)
http://shrani.si/f/2L/6m/2MQ5Qxum/dsfgsdfgsdf.jpg
OK, so this topic leaves us high and dry for the first time. They only listed their scarywater BT site and some other sites where we won't find any bot lists. But don't you worry! If you've read the rest of this post, you should know most (if not all) bots have a prefix of some sort that separates them from other users. Also, they are usually voiced (+) or hopped (%) to separate them from the rest of the IRC lurkers. If we look at the previous examples, we've had to deal with the following bots:

Ureshii|Mr_T
Sprocket|Random
SHS|Sheska-chan
F_B|CD-Pengu
Ashes|Yellow
[Sekai]Archive
AonE|Urd

Five out of seven of these bots had some kind of prefix to link them directly to the group in question, but they were all voiced or hopped. #a.f.k.'s bot is no exception here. If you look at the #channel user list, you'll see only a few people voiced, and that's where you'll find the user afk|IzumiKonata. Message that bot with the words xdcc list for its bot list, then just do what you always do: xdcc send #. I want to download Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei 09, so I'll have to message it with the words xdcc send #27


==================================================

Conclusion #1: IRC is a useful tool if you know two to three guidelines. Being able to read what you FEAR is the most important part of mastering IRC. All channels are different, but fansubbers [I]want you to find the files. Asking politely for help or advice might get ignored in some channels, but rest assured there are users always happy to help out, even if it's just giving you links to tutorials and such. You should read them, you should master IRC, you should be a lot more anonymous than downloading from BT, since the only one knowing what you download is the biggest criminal of the channel, and that's the person illegally offering files on the bot in the first place.

Conclusion #2: I have too much time.

For extensive and easy to read tutorial on IRC you should read Kirika's IRC guide on http://www.kasshin.net

Slice of Life
2007-11-20, 08:56
... wordy manual ...

Kirika's guide, as many such "ultimate" guides on a variety topics, neglects the most important ...

STEP 0: Cleanse your hard disk, buy Window$, and install it.

However, many Linux users prefer not to switch to a closed source(!) OS for security(!) reasons. I know that there is some xdcc linux client floating around but I've never tested it (there was no need to).

Quarkboy
2007-11-20, 08:59
Kirika's guide, as many such "ultimate" guides on a variety topics, neglects the most important ...

STEP 0: Cleanse your hard disk, buy Window$, and install it.

However, many Linux users prefer not to switch to a closed source(!) OS for security(!) reasons. I know that there is some xdcc linux client floating around but I've never tested it (there was no need to).

Using irc in linux is not a problem at all. There are a bunch of decent irc clients out there. In fact, when I used to use irc for all my downloading needs in the mid to late 1990s, I used xchat, if I recall, while running my debian then "unstable" woody.

And anyone who runs linux probably is techie enough to know basic IRC anyway.

cyth
2007-11-20, 09:41
I use X-Chat on both Windows and SUSE (I actually bought the license to the official Windows build; unofficial builds and *NIX versions are, of course, free). Other clients widely used are irssi (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1208709&postcount=15) and Pidgin (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1198145&postcount=5). These are all open-source, free clients.

Also, why such concern for the open-source communities when you don't even know IRC is widely supported for their OS. :p If anything, BT up until recently had poor *NIX support, from a technological standpoint.

TigerII
2007-11-20, 09:53
You are my heroes Toua. That wa sthe first easy guide I have seen for it. Thanks very much.

Slice of Life
2007-11-20, 10:13
Also, why such concern for the open-source communities when you don't even know IRC is widely supported for their OS. :p If anything, BT up until recently had poor *NIX support, from a technological standpoint.

It's also my OS. As I said: I never tried xdcc under Linux because there's no need to. You'd be surprised what a law-abiding person I am. ;) I download only, lets call it "unproblematic" stuff (like mainly unlicensed anime, as opposed to material from companies with the really big money behind them and an army of lawyers on standby here.) and Comcast is far away. I even hardly ever use irc for what it was originally meant too (big timeburner IMHO).

I'm quite sure that I would be able to download from irc for you if you pointed a gun at my head. But don't overestimate the computer literacy of Joe Ubuntu in the modern age of clicky-click. You just don't need all the computer-savvyness anymore when using Linux.

bayoab
2007-11-20, 12:10
For hotline lots of servers had agreements where you had to click 'I accept' before being allowed to the server. You had to agree that you were not a member of any kind of law enforcement, or any user acting on the behalf of a CO. (I doubt that alone would hold up to much real protection, though)

To put it nicely, those agreements were legal garbage and worth nothing in courts. Hotline was also subject to being spammed very heavily and there were tons of fake servers.

Gaiarth
2007-11-20, 12:21
You know, when I first started getting fansubs, we did it my swapping actual video-tapes between ourselves. Maybe the future of safe fansub watching lies in going back to snail-mailing them :)

wao
2007-11-20, 12:25
I've turned entirely to streaming anime by watching it off niconico - 'course that place is pretty heavily monitored now and anime producers are explicitly very angry at people who upload anime there (and people expect them to be nice to us when we're "stealing" hi-quality copies, saving 'em and sharing them too... I'd like what they're smoking.)

People have thought of the act of downloading/watching anime uploaded by others being made illegal but I don't think it is in Singapore (well I hope not). Personally my favourite mode of downloading if I really would need to get something for reference or some random use would be IRC. I usually find what I need, and what I can't find is so obscure I'm willing to use BT because they'd be... well, I just can't see them putting "Legend of Sirius" on their monitoring list or something, especially if it's an unusual tracker.

Otherwise it's that or DDLs off places (I strictly refuse to download from any place that accepts donations though). But this whole experience has really taught me/made me realise I'm happy with much less; actually I don't want to keep most things I watch, and for first viewing I'm fine with 512x384 videos, if they're fast (subs not needed).

But regarding some of those places I'm kinda surprised some of them haven't been caught at all yet (I'm looking at you, certain-popular-journaling-site)

Ranko
2007-11-20, 13:04
You know, when I first started getting fansubs, we did it my swapping actual video-tapes between ourselves. Maybe the future of safe fansub watching lies in going back to snail-mailing them :)

That would be harder to track.

Why is it the afk channel tells me i'm banned, i've never been on enter the game before.............

valet
2007-11-20, 13:56
You know, when I first started getting fansubs, we did it my swapping actual video-tapes between ourselves. Maybe the future of safe fansub watching lies in going back to snail-mailing them :)

Way to go, now suspicious looking men from Singapore are going to be hanging out around your mailbox at about noon each day. :)

cyth
2007-11-20, 14:02
Why is it the afk channel tells me i'm banned, i've never been on enter the game before.............You either wanted to join with a guest, Anonymous*, or *emo* nickname, or you're on a brazillian connection, or you're using Chatzilla.

... yeah, old-school fansubbing channel. ;)

Vexx
2007-11-20, 14:14
That would be harder to track.

Why is it the afk channel tells me i'm banned, i've never been on enter the game before.............

You'd have to write them and ask. There could be a dozen reasons - all the way down to an unfortunate selection of a nickname that was banned or a poor choice of software client.

Some irc channels are "whitelist" --- you have to be on a list in order to get past the bouncer into the club.

But I'd try just logging in with a different nick first and see what happens.

cyth
2007-11-20, 14:24
You'd have to write them and ask.Yep, you could whine to bayoab about it (he's an operator of that channel and has posted in this topic). He loves to help people. o.ob

N-Bomb
2007-11-20, 14:32
That would be harder to track.

Why is it the afk channel tells me i'm banned, i've never been on enter the game before.............


Bay (the leader of afk (AKA bayfk)) won't say, but some of us believe it has to do with certain abuse he suffered at the hands of some Singaporeans at AX.

My personal theory is that it has to do with bay wanting all of .sg to have to use torrents and get prosecuted by Odex.

:o

ender
2007-11-20, 14:43
I know that there is some xdcc linux client floating around but I've never tested it (there was no need to).Hint: Xchat (http://www.xchat.org/), Irssi (http://irssi.org/) and a ton of others. A lot of XDCC bots run some version of Iroffer, and most of them run on a *nix box. There are also fserve scripts for at least Xchat and Irssi.

X10A_Freedom
2007-11-20, 17:25
Gave "Share" a shot, and I have no idea how to get it to work!

martino
2007-11-20, 17:35
Gave "Share" a shot, and I have no idea how to get it to work!
Share will be almost useless to you, unless you are specifically looking for raws...

Solace
2007-11-20, 18:20
Personally I hate IRC and the like. Just far too many elitist jerks who think they were never newbs like the rest of us. I had my fill of it back in the day and I'm sure it's only gotten worse with the newer generation of users.

I'm sure just like all previous sharing programs before it, the loss of BitTorrent will just give rise to some newer better program that's even harder to shut down and will generate even more legal and moral problems. And I'm sure it will gain popularity as the legions of people using BitTorrent will be searching around looking for the next big thing.

Ryougi Shiki
2007-11-20, 18:23
Gave "Share" a shot, and I have no idea how to get it to work!

Yeah, well, unless you want to get the RAWS there and get an .ASS to slap on it over here, it's not very useful to you. It's all Japanese.

Not to mention the timing is off because they're straight from broadcast.

I used Share for GL 25. It was hard to get it working.

Neither Winny nor Share are designed for perfect anonymity, just to be anonymous enough to make it not worth the bother.

X10A_Freedom
2007-11-20, 18:44
I am indeed looking for RAWs since I can understand them - but I'm a good 5000 miles from Japan!

I just read up a little more on share...and a prerequisite is 50kb/sec upload? :| Doubt I'd get Share to work at all then.

cyth
2007-11-20, 19:30
Just far too many elitist jerks who think they were never newbs like the rest of us. I had my fill of it back in the day and I'm sure it's only gotten worse with the newer generation of users.With thousands of IRC networks and tens of thousands IRC channels around that sort of generalization simply doesn't hold true. It's not as simple as BitTorrent, that's for sure. I've personally ran away from IRC for downloading purposes three times before picking it up permanently for anime, and only used it for chatting. That was when I was 13 when trading and obscure fserver scripts still ruled the channels. ;) The current generation of IRC downloaders have it pretty easy with iroffer XDCC bots. The ego associated with fservers and private FTPs advertised through IRC has disappeared for the most part.I'm sure just like all previous sharing programs before it, the loss of BitTorrent will just give rise to some newer better program that's even harder to shut down and will generate even more legal and moral problems. And I'm sure it will gain popularity as the legions of people using BitTorrent will be searching around looking for the next big thing.BitTorrent is probably the most efficient distribution protocol of modern day. I'm having difficulty imagining any kind of distribution design that would be able to take even further advantage of download and upload streams. I think for now BitTorrent needs a few security improvements and some encryption, but as it was said before, BitTorrent was designed to be as efficient in distribution as possible, disregarding privacy issues because it was never intended to be a protocol for unauthorised distribution of copyright works. Solely because of its efficiency I don't see fansubbing groups moving away from it any time soon.

I like Perfect Dark's unity design and heavy encryption though, but unity is simply not as efficient as BitTorrent because it's dealing with a multitude of files. Now if someone designed a Perfect Dark only for anime, that would be something. ^^;

Vexx
2007-11-20, 19:45
Much of what is called "elitist jerkery" on IRC is simply people who learned how to do things on their own by reading and experimenting -- and they've just been asked for the 40,485th time how to get a list (!list) by someone who wants to be handheld through the entire process and therefore will ask how to do it again the next time because they failed to pay attention.

Remember that person who wanted you to 'show me how to do the math' when what they really wanted was for someone else to do it for them?

OTOH... yeah, there are a fair number of socially dysfunctional people who infest the Internet........ :) o wait :)

There are a number of lovely guides for how to behave/etiquette and issue commands on IRC out there on da Intarweb. If you can install and play an MMO/game and learn the arcane crap for those things - average IRC usage isn't any more challenging.

Aoie_Emesai
2007-11-20, 20:28
1) IRC
This works, but queueing for xdcc's/fserve's is kind of a drag. You have to join the channel, find the right xdcc/fserve, find the right pack/folder on the xdcc/fserve, issue request for a download and then hope your turn comes quickly. Of course, when it works, it does work pretty well and if the xdcc/fserve has a good connection it can max out mine.

2) FTP (also HTTP DDL)
Back in the days this was an even greater pain, because of quota's etc. At least with xdcc/fserve you can still browse and queue files even if all slots are currently filled (unless the queue is also full). And with anime now being a lot popular, I don't think FTPs will work anymore.

3) Usenet
My favorite alternative :) The only downside is that the process of downloading is a bit involved (if you don't use NZB sites) and the good servers are pay only. But if you are willing to check it out, some cheap providers that support PayPal may be found here: http://www.ngprovider.com/
See also this post I made: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1261590#post1261590

4) Other P2P
I'm not sure how secure any other common P2P system is. I don't think eMule etc, will be any more secure than BitTorrent is really.

5) Japanese P2P
Works great, if you're looking for raws that is. Fansubs is another matter. Also beware of fakes and viruses on Share.

1. IRC is nice, but relearning all the commands again is annoying. I hate the queue line, lol ^_^
2. FTP is always a good option, there's so many to choose from and you can always use the file hosters. BBSs are a pretty good place too.
3. haven't tired usenet just yet
4. ...
5. Just being able to read Japanese would be a good start for me ^_^

Neaco
2007-11-20, 21:35
Personally I hate IRC and the like. Just far too many elitist jerks who think they were never newbs like the rest of us. I had my fill of it back in the day and I'm sure it's only gotten worse with the newer generation of users.

I'm sure just like all previous sharing programs before it, the loss of BitTorrent will just give rise to some newer better program that's even harder to shut down and will generate even more legal and moral problems. And I'm sure it will gain popularity as the legions of people using BitTorrent will be searching around looking for the next big thing.

Yeah I never liked IRC either, being stuck eternally in a certain channel of a certain infamous group whose channel OP's name ended in "Shok", watching hundreds of users swarm over the poor bots as soon as a release was announced. I never want to go back to that ever again.

WolfCoder
2007-11-20, 21:54
This site should also serve as a guide for obtaining unlicensed Animes in all forms for downloading noobs like me instead of just BT.

teachopvutru
2007-11-21, 01:42
As little as my knowledge about computer and the Internet are, I entered this thread interested in a new candidate for p2p filesharing (since it just seems cool somehow), but that doesn't seem to be happen anytime soon... yet. It doesn't stop me from wondering about what would the something that'll replace bittorrent be like, though. :p

Access
2007-11-21, 03:29
Personally I hate IRC and the like. Just far too many elitist jerks who think they were never newbs like the rest of us. I had my fill of it back in the day and I'm sure it's only gotten worse with the newer generation of users.

I'm sure just like all previous sharing programs before it, the loss of BitTorrent will just give rise to some newer better program that's even harder to shut down and will generate even more legal and moral problems. And I'm sure it will gain popularity as the legions of people using BitTorrent will be searching around looking for the next big thing.
IRC isn't that bad, it was the natural evolution of things like FTP or even the hotline (which was minor) stuff I mentioned earlier. All these things were single-server, multiple client; with IRC you could at least park multiple servers in the same place, and they would naturally share the load. In 1999/2000 it was the natural choice, a step forward but ultimately problematic. None of these things provide the natural evolution of BT, but then fansubbing was never really intended to be an 'under the radar' type of thing. It exists only b'cos no one really tries to stop it, not the japanesse companies, not the local companies, not the government: if anyone were to really crack down on it or make a truly concerted effort, most of the subbers themselves would just disappear rather than become underground outlaw / pirate groups. Like others have mentioned, BT was never really designed for any kind of anti-monitoring security or secrecy; which fansubbing didn't really need to begin with. Today you have things like WOW (8 million worldwide) using BT, linux distributions like fedora, fan-made or amateur movie groups using it. So BT isn't going away, and fansubbing, if it 'goes underground' it will evolve into something else entirely.

Quarkboy
2007-11-21, 03:43
You know, in a way, perhaps the simplest thing to do would be to change the paradigm of fansubbing to begin with.
Say everyone just trades scripts and Share hashes (for the linked raw), instead of video files themselves, and we set up detailed sites explaining how to use Share.

Then, essentially, the "world" would be hiding behind the cloud of Japanese downloaders as well. The script trading is just as "technically" illegal as uploading the videos, copyright wise, but it'd be trivial to set up html or direct downloads for such small files and ISPs wouldn't have the excuse about them sucking up bandwidth.

Sure, we'd have to give up overly flashy karaoke, and it might be difficult to teach everyone how Share works (although it is almost completely available in english). But any prosecution of people on Share would invariably force the Japanese companies to go after their own citizens, which would be very bad PR, I think.

In summary:

Distro scripts joined with Share (or whatever the current best place for raws is) hashes/download keys.

GHDpro
2007-11-21, 04:21
I am indeed looking for RAWs since I can understand them - but I'm a good 5000 miles from Japan!

I just read up a little more on share...and a prerequisite is 50kb/sec upload? :| Doubt I'd get Share to work at all then.

I'm not sure if the 50KB/sec is a hard rule. Btw, 50KB/sec should be attainable with anything but the slowest DSL/Cable connections. If your provider advertises the connection as at least 640kbps up, that should be sufficient.

Quick start guide to Share:

- Make sure you have the English interface. It makes things a bit easier. Also make sure you follow the instructions in the generic Share HOW-TO's you can find on various sites. My notes will repeat a bit of what is in those HOW-TO's but not all of it.

- Setup folders by clicking on the Folders tab and click Add Folder make sure you have at least one of each: cache, download and upload. Make sure the cache is large enough: I'd recommend at least 10 GByte.

- Go to Settings -> General Settings... -> Network in the menu and make sure the port you set there is properly forwarded in your router/modem. More so than any other network Share will simply stop working after a while if no-one can connect to you.

- One important point to Share is getting "nodes" (other people using Share). There are various sites who offer up-to-date lists, but adding them could be a bit of a hassle (I can remember the process not being very intuitive) so just use my nodes.db: nodes.zip (6.0 MB) (http://a.imagehost.org/download/0030/nodes.zip) Unzip that file and put it in the same folder as Share.exe

- Go to Settings -> Clusters... in the menu and add a cluster "アニメ". Clusters are away of showing to others what material you are looking for, so it's important to set them up right. If you are looking for music for example, add a cluster "音楽". Also make sure you tick the box in front of the clusters you want to mark as active (up to 5 max).

- Now you can search... but your searches might not find a lot. I'm not entirely sure why this is, but it might be because when you search you only find very popular files and/or files you have "seen before". Now to populate the "seen before" DB, set up a trigger. Go to the Trigger tab and click Add Trigger. As keyword add whatever you are looking for (in Japanese!) and tick the Enable and Add to DB only boxes, and untick the Delete matching query triggers box.

- If you let that run for a while, your searches should start to show more hits. To download then just double-click or right-click and select the right option.

- Hint: if you don't tick the Add to DB only box when adding a trigger, any results will be automatically queued as downloads. But be aware that if your search trigger is very generic, this results in tons of downloads being queued.

- You can view queued downloads in the Download tab and ongoing downloads in the Tasks tab. Be aware that it might take a while before downloads start, especially for rare files.

- Important note: check if there is activity under the Nodes tab. If not, hit Connect. If after a while there again is no activity at all under Nodes tab, see the Log tab for possible reasons. One likely reason is that port forwarding is not correctly set up.

Disclaimer

I'm no expert on Share, so I'm pretty sure some people might poke holes in the tips I've given here. But this is how I've gotten Share to work.

Coderjoe
2007-11-21, 04:23
The script trading is just as "technically" illegal as uploading the videos, copyright wise

I'm not completely sure about that...

Anyway, as far as the bandwidth hurdle is concerned, usenet is by far the best candidate, as the subbing group would only need to upload the release one time to a good usenet provider, and then the usenet providers carry the bandwidth and storage load. There are providers out there with well over 100 days of retention, too. As for older releases, they could just be reposted on request (provided a set period of time has passed since the last posting, such as 90 days).

Quarkboy
2007-11-21, 04:48
I'm not completely sure about that...

Anyway, as far as the bandwidth hurdle is concerned, usenet is by far the best candidate, as the subbing group would only need to upload the release one time to a good usenet provider, and then the usenet providers carry the bandwidth and storage load. There are providers out there with well over 100 days of retention, too. As for older releases, they could just be reposted on request (provided a set period of time has passed since the last posting, such as 90 days).

To be truthful, I'm not sure that the premium usenet providers could handle the load if people went en-masse to usenet, either on the upload side (flooding) or the download side (server capactity).
Furthermore, it's not free, and that will dampen a lot of people's willingness (although I pay for it right now for only $15 a month from usenetserver.com, which is a damn good deal)

Anyway, I have a suspicion that usenet may not be around for very much longer.
Let's face it, there are plenty PLENTY of perfectly good places online to talk about things with text. Like, say, animesuki forums. People go on usenet to download things, the majority (And I mean HEAVY majority, like 99%) of the bandwidth is illegal copies of movies, TV shows, and songs.
The recent attack of the RIAA against a usenet service (that was somewhat blatant, but still) will set a strong precedent and whether the alt.binary groups disappear next month or next year I think it is only a matter of time.

I don't think it's in fansubbing's best interest to run away to a place that is filled with EVEN MORE high profile illegal sharing activity. And it's SO OBVIOUS with usenet, too. Just download a header list and see what's being posted. At least with peer2peer you can't just pull up a list of everything that's being shared so easily.

Quarkboy
2007-11-21, 04:59
I'm not sure if the 50KB/sec is a hard rule. Btw, 50KB/sec should be attainable with anything but the slowest DSL/Cable connections. If your provider advertises the connection as at least 640kbps up, that should be sufficient.


It's the lowest selectable upload speed, but that speed is really only a suggestion to the program. The program automatically determines your TRUE upload capacity . I do believe that the option really only effects how you are listed on the node listing (you can see other people's listed speeds on the node list).


- Go to Settings -> Clusters... in the menu and add a cluster "アニメ". Clusters are away of showing to others what material you are looking for, so it's important to set them up right. If you are looking for music for example, add a cluster "音楽". Also make sure you tick the box in front of the clusters you want to mark as active (up to 5 max).

If you are searching for a particular anime, adding in cluster with the name of the anime (in Japanese, of course) will also help, sometimes. Also, look at the node list and observe the cluster keywords of other people... maybe you can find on that matches what you are looking for better (like, EAC, for example)


- Now you can search... but your searches might not find a lot. I'm not entirely sure why this is, but it might be because when you search you only find very popular files and/or files you have "seen before".

that's because the search is set up like winny's, and searches only your local database, the computers you are currently connected to, and those computer's databases (I believe). "Trigger" is really the only thing that's important, although search can be useful for seeing what was out there.

Best english Share info site on the web: http://www.uguu.org/share/

Not for complete newbies, but very thorough.

Solace
2007-11-21, 05:00
I'm sure the atmosphere has changed a little bit. But my experiences using it turned me off of the whole thing, and personally I prefer the newer generation of sharing programs.

Bittorrents largest weakness is the sharing of old files. It's wonderful for pretty much anything less than a month old but after that things get iffy. The very design of the program means sharing with a small number of seeds is extremely slow (unless you find that magical person with a hard line).

Each generation of p2p has improved on the previous generations flaws. The fact that even in this thread people are discussing other options shows that bittorrent isn't perfect.

@Vexx - I'm not the type of person who goes into things blind. While I do ask for help politely when I'm completely stumped, I prefer to research and learn things for myself. I'm not the type of person who enjoys being led by the hand, part of the fun in learning is the sense of satisfaction of overcoming frustration.

What I hated about IRC and other older chat programs was that many of the channels where run by ops who were on a power trip. Most channels have bots who kick when someone can't figure out how to !list, but beyond that you'd have people who would join, say hello and get banned just because the op had a momentary lapse of asshattery. Yes, I ran into a few nice channels of kind people but it was like an oasis in a sea of the worst human rot imaginable. Oddly, I feel this way when playing many online games, and sadly, it's not always the children who act that way. Perhaps that makes me a bit elitist, but really it was just a tiring experience that's made me a bit jaded about online personalities.

@access - You'd better believe fansubbing is frowned upon by companies, or there wouldn't be three huge threads in this section discussing it. It was easy to overlook when people were trading crappy quality tapes but as technology has improved, you can get nicely translated hd quality files for free much easier that ever before.

No company is going to let that slide when they could be getting profit from it. The only thing that is slowing down how zealously companies are trying to protect their products is international laws, and they are doing everything they can to affect changes to benefit their interests.

Something you might not have noticed when companies use bittorrent "officially" is that it is often crippled. For example WoW's client offers no way to manage your upload rate, meaning your pipe gets choked out and your download crawls at a snails pace. It's faster to get a patch from fileplanet or to rip the .torrent from their patcher and put it in your own client.

Anyway, to stay on topic - I think bittorrent has a bit more life left in it, but only because someone hasn't created something that combines the overall ease of use and efficiency of bitorrent with better protection for seeders and leechers. I'm sure there's a few that are very close, however.

bayoab
2007-11-21, 05:15
You know, in a way, perhaps the simplest thing to do would be to change the paradigm of fansubbing to begin with.
Say everyone just trades scripts and Share hashes (for the linked raw), instead of video files themselves, and we set up detailed sites explaining how to use Share.This is such a bad idea. I see enough stuff from Japan that has used fansubs instead of raws for one reason or another and the last thing needed is to pollute the Japanese P2P networks with english file names and non-Japanese files. The Japanese dislike English users who don't understand how to use the program with Japanese as it is.

cyth
2007-11-21, 05:43
It's the lowest selectable upload speed, but that speed is really only a suggestion to the program. The program automatically determines your TRUE upload capacity . I do believe that the option really only effects how you are listed on the node listing (you can see other people's listed speeds on the node list).Your upload capacity or that upstream setting have nothing to do with your download speed or download slots (or node connectivity). You could limit your upload to 5 KB/s with an external program and download just as fast or even faster than you would without throttled upload. The only thing those settings influence is the number of download slots. You get a few extra if you set your downstream setting to something ridiculous like 12800 KB/s (100 mbit/s).So BT isn't going away, and fansubbing, if it 'goes underground' it will evolve into something else entirely.We'll just have to wait for the next revolutionary step of BT distribution. Large-scale distribution isn't going back to IRC or Usenet, that's quite certain, but these methods will always be around. At least I don't see IRC disappearing any time soon because it's home to 99% of all fansubbing groups out there. People who know how to take advantage of IRC will always have it better than BT users, speed and privacy-wise.

Vexx
2007-11-21, 06:30
@Vexx - I'm not the type of person who goes into things blind. While I do ask for help politely when I'm completely stumped, I prefer to research and learn things for myself. I'm not the type of person who enjoys being led by the hand, part of the fun in learning is the sense of satisfaction of overcoming frustration.

What I hated about IRC and other older chat programs was that many of the channels where run by ops who were on a power trip. Most channels have bots who kick when someone can't figure out how to !list, but beyond that you'd have people who would join, say hello and get banned just because the op had a momentary lapse of asshattery. Yes, I ran into a few nice channels of kind people but it was like an oasis in a sea of the worst human rot imaginable. Oddly, I feel this way when playing many online games, and sadly, it's not always the children who act that way. Perhaps that makes me a bit elitist, but really it was just a tiring experience that's made me a bit jaded about online personalities.


I'm not going to dispute that there are a LOT of asshats out there who reveal their true lack of soul thanks to the pseudo-anonymity of their online selves. And frankly its often not "children" but those who are merely adult by age and not mental acuity :)
It regularly has me turning off my MMO accounts to spend more time with monkeys who *attended* the monolith meeting rather than the ones still throwing poo at the waterhole :)

Sometimes though --- the poo throwing monkeys are the ones I described above though ... the lazy ones who just assume you'll do it all for them.

on topic: I suspect BT is a good longlasting *concept* for filesharing but it'll have to get anonymized, encrypted, and nimble -- at some point the asshat ISPs will have no way to observe your behavior outside of total transfer quantity. And THEN maybe they'll understand that they have to invest in infrastructure and offer quantity-tiered service (you want 30GB/month? $30.... 60GB? $60... or some such).

Quarkboy
2007-11-21, 06:52
This is such a bad idea. I see enough stuff from Japan that has used fansubs instead of raws for one reason or another and the last thing needed is to pollute the Japanese P2P networks with english file names and non-Japanese files. The Japanese dislike English users who don't understand how to use the program with Japanese as it is.

You clearly didn't understand what I was suggesting. I suggested trading script files by means OTHER than share, and distributing those scripts with hashes that match RAWS on share. No english filenames or, for that matter, file at all would be uploaded to the share network.

Solace
2007-11-21, 08:01
I'm not going to dispute that there are a LOT of asshats out there who reveal their true lack of soul thanks to the pseudo-anonymity of their online selves. And frankly its often not "children" but those who are merely adult by age and not mental acuity :)
It regularly has me turning off my MMO accounts to spend more time with monkeys who *attended* the monolith meeting rather than the ones still throwing poo at the waterhole :)

Sometimes though --- the poo throwing monkeys are the ones I described above though ... the lazy ones who just assume you'll do it all for them.

on topic: I suspect BT is a good longlasting *concept* for filesharing but it'll have to get anonymized, encrypted, and nimble -- at some point the asshat ISPs will have no way to observe your behavior outside of total transfer quantity. And THEN maybe they'll understand that they have to invest in infrastructure and offer quantity-tiered service (you want 30GB/month? $30.... 60GB? $60... or some such).

Agreed. ;)

I think at this point the only real way for p2p to evolve is to go the anonymous route like you described. With broadband getting better and more available size isn't as big an issue as staying under the radar. The push for decentralized networking hasn't really taken off (gnutella and the like) so it's more likely newer programs will push the packet encryption route instead. Makes me wonder if ISP's will try and do something against customers who have heavily encrypted traffic, since more often than not they'll just assume the worst because you are "hiding" something.

X10A_Freedom
2007-11-21, 08:15
Thanks for the guide GHDPro.

the port you set there is properly forwarded in your router/modem.
Not exactly sure what port number to put there. I also think there's a high chance ports forwarding is disabled on the network I'm on. BT works but an online game I tried, which needs ports forwarding didn't.

My upload speed is around 30-40kb/sec.

Quarkboy
2007-11-21, 08:16
...do something against customers who have heavily encrypted traffic, since more often than not they'll just assume the worst because you are "hiding" something.

Hmm, this poses an interesting theoretical question. How does one tell if traffic is encrypted or not? If you write a program that checks for tell-tale signatures of certain encryption schemes, perhaps? But then, as a counter measure, suppose I develop an encryption protocol that "encrypts" my data into pseudo html, or normal seeming ftp traffic? Then how are they to tell that the data I am transmitting is nothing more than what it seems on the outside without knowing the encryption keys? Of course, all of this would introduce a large amount of redundancy and bloat to the transmission.

Hmm, as an example, (not realistic, but to prove my point), say I have an encrypted packet using 1024 bit RSA or something. This originally comes in seemingly randomish stream of bytes. But then instead of sending the encypted packet directly, say that I take each sequence of 4 128 bits (four ascii characters) and send instead the results page from searching google for that 4 character string. Then you are sending "content" that seems to the ISP like normal webpages, whereas the end user can easily recreate the original packet and then decrypt as usual. (I'm ignoring the fact that google tends to customize its results)

So encrypted content can also be MASKED, although at an expense of effeciency, usually.

Coderjoe
2007-11-21, 09:14
Hmm, as an example, (not realistic, but to prove my point), say I have an encrypted packet using 1024 bit RSA or something. This originally comes in seemingly randomish stream of bytes. But then instead of sending the encypted packet directly, say that I take each sequence of 4 128 bits (four ascii characters) and send instead the results page from searching google for that 4 character string. Then you are sending "content" that seems to the ISP like normal webpages, whereas the end user can easily recreate the original packet and then decrypt as usual. (I'm ignoring the fact that google tends to customize its results)

First, what you describe isn't really encryption but something close to steganography, the hiding of information within other information.

Now, for your example, again, ignoring google customizing pages. The load you put on google with such a scheme will make google hate your guts and do everything in their power to break your system.

For an ISP to tell if a connection is encrypted or not would require them to have a system sniffing connections and doing deep packet inspection for known encrypton protocol handshakes, such as simple SSL handshaking, or some other protocol that handshakes in order to determine encryption. This kind of deep packet inspection on the scale of comcast's (an example) customer base would require a lot of processing power. Plus, if it ever got out to the public that they were doing such packet inspection, it would be a PR nightmare.

Slice of Life
2007-11-21, 10:10
Every concept of sharing that involves transporting data X directly from A to B puts A into danger if B is paid by, say, Warner, and X is their movie. Onion routing is the only relatively secure solution I see at the moment.

valet
2007-11-21, 10:11
Finding out if a stream of data is encrypted is not too difficult, because encrypted streams stand out like sore thumbs with some simple statistical analysis. Hiding the fact that you have something to hide is what steganography is all about, but just like you say, it tanks on efficiency because you have to hide your original message in a more innocent-looking but larger (usually a lot larger) message. Because of that, it's ideal if your message is really important and your medium is really cheap (arguably neither is the case when it comes to filesharing).

Fortunately, it's not a problem that needs to be solved in the first place. The use of encryption is on the rise in normal, everyday network traffic. ISPs can't assume encryption streams are evil unless they're willing to cut off all of their online banking and web shopping users, not to mention their telecommuters who use VPN.

As for anonymous p2p, I can picture it driving the law to change such that a node becomes responsible for whatever data it forwards on behalf of its peers. If that happens, you (or maybe the operator of your exit node) suddenly have a lot more copyright holders to answer to, and when they're done with you, the FBI wants to talk to you about that little pedo problem you've got.

Slice of Life
2007-11-21, 10:24
As for anonymous p2p, I can picture it driving the law to change such that a node becomes responsible for whatever data it forwards on behalf of its peers. If that happens, you (or maybe the operator of your exit node) suddenly have a lot more copyright holders to answer to, and when they're done with you, the FBI wants to talk to you about that little pedo problem you've got.

This is true, but it's a legal problem, not a technical one, and it requires political solutions, not techical ones. Legally, everything is possbile. They can outlaw any operating system except windows with a build-in whistleblower if some judge decides that the property rights of a media company rank higher than your right to privacy.

I see pretty black for the future anyway, in an age where cameras with a face recognition software behind it are installed at every corner and Joe Sixpack is perfectly fine with it.

SeijiSensei
2007-11-21, 10:32
Plus, if it ever got out to the public that they were doing such packet inspection, it would be a PR nightmare.

After years of trying to convince people that online shopping via SSL connections is secure, attempts by ISPs to snoop inside encrypted packets would be the equivalent of dropping a large bomb on their feet.

I run encrypted "virtual private network" channels between my router and half a dozen clients around town so I can maintain the machines I've installed in their offices. There are so many valid uses for encryption that attempts to defeat it by ISPs would be a public relations disaster of major proportions.

I see a future where encryption is much more widely used than it is today, not less. Once public-key encryption systems like GPG become a no-brainer to install, my bet is they'll be adopted by a lot of businesses anxious to keep their private commercial correspondence free from prying eyes. Once people get used to using things like encrypted email at the office, it will start spreading to home use as well.

Quarkboy
2007-11-21, 10:38
As for anonymous p2p, I can picture it driving the law to change such that a node becomes responsible for whatever data it forwards on behalf of its peers. If that happens, you (or maybe the operator of your exit node) suddenly have a lot more copyright holders to answer to, and when they're done with you, the FBI wants to talk to you about that little pedo problem you've got.


Steganography? Didn't even realize it had a name, I was just sort of thinking out loud. Although every good idea I ever have when it comes to computers seems to have been invented by Knuth in the 80s...

Anyway, such a law will never happen because corporations wouldn't want the liability risk. Say such a law is passed. Then all hackerX needs to do to ruin said company is to hack a server on their system, set it up as a passthrough node for "kiddypornsiteXXX314" and tip off the local authorities. Corporate lobbyists would make sure it would never happen.


Okay, more thinking outloud: One of the advantages of Bittorrent when it comes to prosecution is fragmentation. Bittorrent isn't a network, it's a million DIFFERENT networks. The only flaw is that it requires a hub for each network (tracker) and for convenience normally that hub services many many networks at once (making the largest ones big targets).
Other p2p systems are harder to track because they are decentralized (like winny and share and gnutella), however they make big targets because they are essentially one giant interconnected network.
The best of both worlds would be a SELF FRAGMENTING, NON-CENTRALIZED collection of networks. Share is almost like this, with its system of clusters... however the clusters are fundamentally interconnected. I think that a network that automatically dislocates itself into distinct pieces would be more efficient, and also more secure against disruption.

Perhaps the idea is that you give the program a basic idea of what you'd like to find. It then connects you to one of the pieces it remembers from last time (the initial setup would need some input by hand like a piece list or something), and looks for what you want. If it's not there you can ask another node in the piece for the address of a node in a different piece (or look one up you've visited yourself in the past). And if the piece you are currently connected to gets too large, it automatically fragments in two, based off heuristics about who was downloading/uploading to whom, making the smaller networks more efficient and fair.

Coderjoe
2007-11-21, 10:48
Finding out if a stream of data is encrypted is not too difficult, because encrypted streams stand out like sore thumbs with some simple statistical analysis.

Really? How can you tell it isn't ordinary data? bits are bits until you know how to interpret them, as far as the computer is concerned.

Fortunately, it's not a problem that needs to be solved in the first place. The use of encryption is on the rise in normal, everyday network traffic. ISPs can't assume encryption streams are evil unless they're willing to cut off all of their online banking and web shopping users, not to mention their telecommuters who use VPN.

Agreed.

After years of trying to convince people that online shopping via SSL connections is secure, attempts by ISPs to snoop inside encrypted packets would be the equivalent of dropping a large bomb on their feet.

I use encryption every day as well, from SSL-encrypted IMAP, SMTP, FTP, and HTTP, to VPN connections, and SSH. I would be quite pissed if I found out my ISP was trying to peek inside my encryption, and would be very vocal about it, using online banking and shopping as points to get the average joe and jane to care about the issue. However, what I described was not so much the ISP trying to see what was in the encrypted data stream so much as just identifying it as an encrypted stream in the first place.

Vexx
2007-11-21, 11:17
The collision between Banks and most Major Corporations and the consumer millions versus "IP" Inquisitors over peering inside encrypted packets would be most amusing to watch.... I think the sound "squick" comes to mind.

valet
2007-11-21, 11:44
This is true, but it's a legal problem, not a technical one, and it requires political solutions, not techical ones. Legally, everything is possbile. They can outlaw any operating system except windows with a build-in whistleblower if some judge decides that the property rights of a media company rank higher than your right to privacy.

Granted, it's a legal problem, but I think it's a likely and legally feasible outcome, where outlawing operating systems is unlikely and, for the moment, legally infeasible.

Anyway, such a law will never happen because corporations wouldn't want the liability risk. Say such a law is passed. Then all hackerX needs to do to ruin said company is to hack a server on their system, set it up as a passthrough node for "kiddypornsiteXXX314" and tip off the local authorities. Corporate lobbyists would make sure it would never happen.

This isn't fundamentally different than hacking a corporation's website and uploading kiddy porn, though, and that's something that can happen today. I think prosecution would come after a lot of data was collected and maybe passed through some human filters to weed out issues like that. Given that the penalties could be criminal charges rather than $5k and a slap on the wrist, I don't think they'd have to make too many people into examples to put the freeze on it.

Needless to say, it'd be hard to file that suit today, and for right now I think anonymous p2p has one-upped the anti-p2p world. I just expect this to be the way they fight it if it becomes big enough to attract their attention

Really? How can you tell it isn't ordinary data? bits are bits until you know how to interpret them, as far as the computer is concerned.

The difference is that encrypted streams follow a much more random distribution than unencrypted streams. Bits that represent organized protocols and data generate repeating and identifiable patterns, and you don't necessarily have to be able to interpret them in order to know they're there. It's like finding writing on a wall in a language you don't understand (as opposed to steganography, where you would find an ordinary looking wall of absolutely no interest to you that somehow means something significant to somebody else).

ender
2007-11-21, 12:30
One thing: unless you're CIA, peeking what's inside encrypted packets is simply not doable as long as you use strong enough encryption (even if you are CIA, it's likely not doable).
BTW, valet: how do encrypted streams compare to compressed data?

lamer_de
2007-11-21, 12:54
The problem with share is the same as with every other network that is not "concentrating" on one file. You can easily see this with the western ones, like edonkey/kadmelia. Downloading there is slow, because bandwith is distributed through various files.
Yes, share is extremly fast for an encrypted network (1mbit+), but I very much believe it's because Japan's isp's allow for high upstream. In Germany for example ADSL is the most widespread connection type, with ratios that range from 8:1 (1mbit/128kbit) to 16:1 (16mbit/1mbit) in download:upload ratios. I guess the US cable ratios are similar. If the 100.000 people that download Bleach over torrent each week join share, I'm pretty sure that would have an interesting effect on the download speeds of all other files, because all bandwith would be sucked up by those "leeches". Which is exactly the point of BT, creating a separate network for every single file. The TOR network is another case (although not the same, as it doesn't force you to upload anything), where you have servers pumping out 2000kbps and it's still very slow. Even if your server chain consists only of 500kbps+ servers, all you get on the end is around 4kbps or so.

bayoab
2007-11-21, 13:47
You clearly didn't understand what I was suggesting. I suggested trading script files by means OTHER than share, and distributing those scripts with hashes that match RAWS on share. No english filenames or, for that matter, file at all would be uploaded to the share network.I clearly did understand what you said. What do you think is going to happen once those files hit the harddrive? I have no idea if Share is anywhere as evil as Winny when it comes to filenames, but do you think average leecher will keep a file named "—V‹Y‰ƒfƒ…ƒGƒ‹ƒ‚ƒ“ƒXƒ^[ƒYGX ‘34˜b " or in Japanese for that matter? They are likely to rename it and thus possibly kill it from the hash swarm that exists. (I assume that share is smart enough that they would still pick it up if it was hash search only, but can you really use just a hash effectively?)

Then it just takes that one leecher who realizes "Wait, the more I share, the more likely I'll get my file" and adds all his fansubs to his shared folder. Then the next leecher sees the fansubs and they start trading hardsubbed fansubs accordingly. The amount of garbage that shows up just increases.

Also, new users would have to be taught about fakes and viruses and the like. I am sure some enterprising users will start putting up more fakes to try and trick the gaijin or to infect them.

<Snip for length> The best of both worlds would be a SELF FRAGMENTING, NON-CENTRALIZED collection of networks. Share is almost like this, with its system of clusters... however the clusters are fundamentally interconnected. I think that a network that automatically dislocates itself into distinct pieces would be more efficient, and also more secure against disruption.
This too, has already been done. It is used by several viruses out there. Namely the Storm worm and one other.

valet
2007-11-21, 13:55
BTW, valet: how do encrypted streams compare to compressed data?

Compressing data removes patterns, but compression formats require new structured headers that aren't random, and whatever protocol you're using to move the compressed file is also going to contain observable patterns. If you just started firing a stream of gzipped data out to the internet, I imagine it might look like encryption (in a way, it is encryption, just not all that strong, and everybody already has the key). But data that's strongly encrypted end-to-end ought to look to some observer in the middle like highly random noise, and data that's not ought to generally look lumpy and lopsided.

GHDpro
2007-11-21, 15:44
I clearly did understand what you said. What do you think is going to happen once those files hit the harddrive? I have no idea if Share is anywhere as evil as Winny when it comes to filenames, but do you think average leecher will keep a file named "—V‹Y‰ƒfƒ…ƒGƒ‹ƒ‚ƒ“ƒXƒ^[ƒYGX ‘34˜b " or in Japanese for that matter? They are likely to rename it and thus possibly kill it from the hash swarm that exists. (I assume that share is smart enough that they would still pick it up if it was hash search only, but can you really use just a hash effectively?)
Afaik that's not how Share works. From what I've gathered Share downloads blocks of a file into a cache folder (which is several gigabytes big, depending on how large you allow it to grow). Once a download is complete, the cache blocks are assembled into a complete file. But uploading of already downloaded blocks is done from the cache folder: thus incomplete and renamed/removed downloads are also "seeded" as long as the blocks aren't purged from the cache (which they are occasionally to make room for new downloads).

So anyway, unless I'm wrong about how Share works, a downloader can do anything to any complete file he grabs of Share, as it's the cache folder that's used for uploading back. Of course... that still leaves the possibility of someone putting his fansub collection on Share.

Also lamer_de was quite right (IMHO) that an huge influx of non-Japanese users will probably cause a huge speed drop, as the current high speeds for most popular files are only sustainable because Japanese internet connections have great upload speed. Once the number of "leechers" grows, the speed will drop. And that might solicit a reaction by the Japanese users of Share, perhaps by blocking all non-Japanese users in some way (a correctly configured firewall should be able to do that, probably).

Also, new users would have to be taught about fakes and viruses and the like. I am sure some enterprising users will start putting up more fakes to try and trick the gaijin or to infect them.

That's spot on. Especially for very popular files you have to look out for files named "らき☆すた 01.avi.exe", if you know what I mean. I keep my virus scanner on standby when downloading from Share :eyebrow:

WolfCoder
2007-11-21, 15:46
I've got the best anti virus software that you can possibly get, Nod32 if you guys need a tip. Protects all, auto HD scan and net scan better than Norton, and VERY fast. I have it on and i see not much of a slow down at all.

bayoab
2007-11-21, 15:54
Afaik that's not how Share works. From what I've gathered Share downloads blocks of a file into a cache folder (which is several gigabytes big, depending on how large you allow it to grow). Once a download is complete, the cache blocks are assembled into a complete file. But uploading of already downloaded blocks is done from the cache folder: thus incomplete and renamed/removed downloads are also "seeded" as long as the blocks aren't purged from the cache (which they are occasionally to make room for new downloads).

So anyway, unless I'm wrong about how Share works, a downloader can do anything to any complete file he grabs of Share, as it's the cache folder that's used for uploading back. Of course... that still leaves the possibility of someone putting his fansub collection on Share.

Actually, that should be right. I had forgotten about the cache step. However, I'm sure there are people like me who have limited HD space and want the extra space the cache takes up back. Therefore, the downloaded copy gets moved into the shared folder and the cached is manually purged after every session.

Quarkboy
2007-11-21, 19:38
This too, has already been done. It is used by several viruses out there. Namely the Storm worm and one other.

Hmm, considering how difficult these bot-not worms have been to track down, maybe the easiest thing to do is set up a collection plate, and pay off the russian internet mafia for use of their bot-net for distro purposes. :)

Coderjoe
2007-11-22, 01:16
Hmm, considering how difficult these bot-not worms have been to track down, maybe the easiest thing to do is set up a collection plate, and pay off the russian internet mafia for use of their bot-net for distro purposes. :)

Sure, if you want to be doing blatently illegal things, in addition to marginally illegal things...