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Daiz
2008-03-18, 17:22
Fancy karaoke is still very popular these days. Many otherwise softsubbed releases have hardsubbed karaoke in order to have advanced effects that couldn't be achieved with softsubs alone.

While some people surely like fancy karaoke, I belong to the group who doesn't really appreciate karaoke effects. Sure, having fading and blinking letters to go with the music can be considered "cool", but honestly speaking, I don't see the need for eye-candy effects when the OP/ED is already supposed to be eye-candy itself. In fact, hardsubbed karaoke can become quite an annoyance when it's constantly taking up screen space from the actual animation and you can't turn it off. This is the reason I would rather have simpler softsubbed karaoke (translation + romaji [+ kanji], no blinking letters necessary) that I could turn off if I wanted to view the animation itself.

This leads me to my question, what's your opinion on karaoke, karaoke effects, what kind of karaoke would you like to see in fansubs, etc? I'm interested in knowing what other people think about this, since I generally seem to belong to the minority in this subject.

Grv
2008-03-18, 17:38
My opinion is that karaoke is one way for fansubbers to actually have some fun. When it comes to the rest of a release people expect an accurately translated, readable dialogue - no fun to be had there.

jfs
2008-03-18, 18:16
There's already been a thread like this at least once before... but I can't bother to dig it up.

I think I can claim a (more or less direct) influence on many of the karaoke effects made today, but I won't let that get into the way of my argument.

I like watching a well-made karaoke effect, and I find it fun developing my own, as well as developing tools to enable making even more advanced effects.
On the other hand, I hate badly done karaoke effects, whether that means something as trivial as bad timing, bad choice of colours or fonts, or maybe a generally bad/annoying design of the effect. I forgot which group it was, but I remember a karaoke effect for the My-HiME OP that in my eyes simply killed the opening... I found the raws much more watchable during the opening only because of it not having karaoke. That effect was what I'd call "visual pollution".

martino
2008-03-18, 18:56
Personally I have nothing against no karaoke effects, whether be it \k, \kf or just Triad-style. As long as the lyrics, translations and kana (although I sometimes wonder why I like to see it there) are present, I'm happy. However what I don't like is when someone tries to do the effects, and it ends up looking horrible, although this can be subject to personal preference too. So if you are trying, at least make it look nice. :)

Ichihara Asako
2008-03-18, 19:37
I don't care. Completely indifferent. I almost never watch OPs and EDs. IF I let them run, it'll be to listen to the music while I go grab a drink or something before the show starts. What groups do in the OP is of no concern to me.

Access
2008-03-18, 21:02
I think it's awful and should be stopped. Every time there is karaoke he thinks it's some kind of invitation to sing along, and believe me, he doesn't sing well at all. I used to be able to show digisubs at club meets without worry but now people wonder why the room clears out around a minute before the OP or ED is about to be shown. No one has the heart to tell the poor guy his voice is awful and he imagines himself as some future opera star or something similar. I feel like the concert in Clannad where they had to warn the audience 'sit toward the back and be ready to run at any moment'. So please cut it out with the karaoke I don't know how much longer I can handle that guy with his awful voice much longer.

D404
2008-03-18, 22:18
To each his own.

Maybe some middle ground here... ordered chapters anyone? :)

KholdStare
2008-03-18, 22:27
I don't really care about the flashy karaoke, but I do appreciate the OP and ED being translated, even if it's in normal text. However, some songs have very noticeable and incredible karaoke (Ayako's Minami-ke karaoke was really wow!) and some songs are catchy enough that I usually sing along. That doesn't mean the karaoke has to be overdone though.

Bot1
2008-03-18, 22:50
i do like having karaoke in the release but i prefer a simple softsubbed karaoke

Daiz
2008-03-18, 23:14
ordered chapters anyone? :)

I'd love this. I don't really mind how flashy karaoke is as long as I can turn it off if I want (unless the effects are literally BAD and make my eyes bleed), but unfortunately this would require fansubbers to actually use ordered chapters...

Zaris
2008-03-19, 00:51
I don't have a problem viewing karaoke during the OP/ED, but it becomes quite intrusive in my opinion when text becomes a dominating or distracting presence on the screen. Font size should remain small throughout the piece with a minimum of eye candy and effects, and OPs and EDs are no exceptions. The focus has to remain on the anime.

Xabin
2008-03-19, 03:02
I like kodaoke

cyth
2008-03-19, 03:08
Every now and then someone comes here to complain how the world doesn't revolve around them. As much as it baffles me, a lot of people like their karaoke subtitles to be included. Karaoke subtitles are part of the digisub culture and they are most likely not going away, sorry.

DragoonKain3
2008-03-19, 03:41
Personally, I could care less. As long as the english translation is available (so that I actually have a clue on what is being sung), whether there is karaoke or not wouldn't bother me at all. It's not as if I sing the song out loud then. While it's true it's pretty to look at, I wouldn't miss it if it wasn't there at all.

Then again, I sometimes find myself unconsciously singing an anime song whenever I'm deep in thought or busy doing something. And almost always, it would be the last one anime I saw beforehand, and times it occurs rises incredibly if the OP/ED had karaoke. So if you want less guys like me singing an anime song out of nowhere, remove the karaoke. :heh:

Daiz
2008-03-19, 03:42
Hey Toua, I didn't say that I completely and utterly dislike karaoke or that it should go away. In fact, I like having the romaji and translated lyrics (kanji is fine too). I said this in the first post too. The main problem I have is that most of the time the only choice is hardsubbed karaoke, so there's no way to turn the karaoke off. If I like the OP/ED of some show enough to actually watch it more than once, I usually end up wanting to turn the karaoke off at some point.

This could be solved in two ways:

1. Softsubbing the karaoke, which would result in less-flashy karaoke effects, since you can't just use the fanciest effects with softsubs in any reasonable way. I would be perfectly fine with this, and it would work under every platform too.

2. Using ordered chapters and editions to provide hardsubbed and non-subbed (or softsubbed) OPs/EDs and let user choose between them. This would be most likely the best solution, since this way people making karaoke wouldn't have to make compromises and people who want could turn karaoke off, but unfortunately only Haali Media Splitter does ordered chapters properly enough, so this would currently only work under DirectShow in Windows.

martino
2008-03-19, 03:50
1. Softsubbing the karaoke, which would result in less-flashy karaoke effects, since you can't just use the fanciest effects with softsubs in any reasonable way. I would be perfectly fine with this, and it would work under every platform too.
Unfortunately you can barely use even simple effects softsubbed when VSFilter is rendering. And don't forget, not everyone is running on a strong system...

Daiz
2008-03-19, 04:03
martino, I know. Personally I don't even have a very strong system, but on the other hand, I would be very much satisfied with even the simplest karaoke (think Triad style, except softsubbed).

In any way, ordered chapters + editions would pretty much be the ideal solution if they just could be used properly on every platform.

False Dawn
2008-03-19, 05:38
I think it's awful and should be stopped. Every time there is karaoke he thinks it's some kind of invitation to sing along, and believe me, he doesn't sing well at all. I used to be able to show digisubs at club meets without worry but now people wonder why the room clears out around a minute before the OP or ED is about to be shown. No one has the heart to tell the poor guy his voice is awful and he imagines himself as some future opera star or something similar. I feel like the concert in Clannad where they had to warn the audience 'sit toward the back and be ready to run at any moment'. So please cut it out with the karaoke I don't know how much longer I can handle that guy with his awful voice much longer.


I thought for a second that you were referring to yourself in third person :twitch:


1. Softsubbing the karaoke, which would result in less-flashy karaoke effects, since you can't just use the fanciest effects with softsubs in any reasonable way. I would be perfectly fine with this, and it would work under every platform too.


Unfortunately, a pipe dream - while I'd love to see the day when everything in an episode is softsubbed (typesetting + kara included), the only way I can see of doing it is a program that'll support multiple subtitle tracks playing at once. Well, and linked mkvs, I guess, though that would be a CPU drainer, I'd imagine, as well as being prone to errors.

So yeah, maybe there'll be a choice one day, but at the moment, we're stuck with what each group decides for karaoke. Personally, I don't mind the flashy stuff, as long as it doesn't involve syllables disappearing as soon as they're sung because that just defeats the whole purpose of karaoke, doesn't it?

SeijiSensei
2008-03-19, 07:03
I've sometimes thought it would be nice to have the occasional clean OP and ED, maybe once every four or five episodes, just to see it without the clutter of karaoke and subber credits. I know if I care enough I can watch a raw, as I did with Bartender, but it would be nice to see a raw OP/ED from time to time in a subbed show as well.

Bot1
2008-03-19, 10:27
So yeah, maybe there'll be a choice one day, but at the moment, we're stuck with what each group decides for karaoke. Personally, I don't mind the flashy stuff, as long as it doesn't involve syllables disappearing as soon as they're sung because that just defeats the whole purpose of karaoke, doesn't it?

i don't get this. why do you want multiple subtitle tracks playing at the same time?

martino
2008-03-19, 11:20
In any way, ordered chapters + editions would pretty much be the ideal solution if they just could be used properly on every platform.
Having it work on each platform isn't necessarily a requirement, since it's not like they wouldn't be able to play the file at all... they just wouldn't get the same candy as Windows users would. However the approach you are suggesting is definitely interesting, although not everyone could be bothered with the creation of the chapters. Anyway, I quite like this idea, and might actually try and give it a shot next time (so far the OP/ED linking I've been using seems have been received fairly well by the leechers -- although you never know how many curse in quiet) the opportunity comes around the corner for me.

hobbes_fan
2008-03-19, 12:24
Can I suggest something?
As an end user I actually like them. I just ask that groups stay away from using green and red. 5% of the world's population is red/green colourblind (like myself) so green text dissappears into red backgrounds and vice versa. I tend to remux where possible stuff I d/l but hardsubbed it's a bit difficult. As a side note Blue yellow and purple are the rarest forms.

False Dawn
2008-03-19, 13:21
i don't get this. why do you want multiple subtitle tracks playing at the same time?


So that karaoke softsubs could be switched off without switching off the subbed translation itself. In a sense, so that it becomes an optional extra. As I say, though, this is probably a pipedream.

cyth
2008-03-19, 14:13
So that karaoke softsubs could be switched off without switching off the subbed translation itself.You know, you could just make two dialogue scripts, one with and one without karaoke lines included. <_<;

False Dawn
2008-03-19, 21:19
You know, you could just make two dialogue scripts, one with and one without karaoke lines included. <_<;


As far as I know though, fancy karaoke can't really be done softsubbed (this is foreign territory to me, so shoot me down if I'm wrong) and that's what I was thinking of when I said "softsubbed karaoke". I know that multisub is an option (one that's very unused, in fact), but it would only really allow basic styling and .ass tsing (afaik).

Bot1
2008-03-19, 21:42
you can easily make a pretty nice softsubbed karaoke if you know what you are doing. also the tsing can pretty much be as advanced as you want it to be. in the entire time i've tsed i've only had to get a sign hardsubbed once

Yuudai-kun
2008-03-20, 01:05
OP/ED Karoke as softsubs would be cool. If softsub kara can eliminate badly done AE karaoke (Nodame Special :heh:), i'm all for it!

I think all groups should at least provide softsubbed karaoke for all insert songs, because flashy hardsubbed karaoke within the episode/dialogue is really distracting.

Does anyone know what processor power would one need to play back a simple {\k..} karaoke anyway?

cyth
2008-03-20, 03:25
Does anyone know what processor power would one need to play back a simple {\k..} karaoke anyway?You don't need much; ye old Pentium 4 and AMD Athlon 1800+ processors suffice, but processing also depends on the length of individual lines. So yeah, simple softsub karaoke are a viable possibility.

Zippicus
2008-03-20, 03:26
Chalk one more up in the neutral column. It's very rare that I actually watch the op/ed segments anyways. I think Aria is the only show that I've actually watched every opening because they're all different and related to that particular episode.

TheFluff
2008-03-20, 05:08
Does anyone know what processor power would one need to play back a simple {\k..} karaoke anyway?

As Toua says, not very much. I know of several groups that use softsubbed \k or \kf karaoke for insert songs.

Yuudai-kun
2008-03-20, 05:40
As Toua says, not very much. I know of several groups that use softsubbed \k or \kf karaoke for insert songs.

That's interesting. Thanks for your replies.

Tbh, i'm a fan of simple \k karaoke. If the font choice is good and the colours as well, there's nothing to complain about (and if it's softsubbed, you could even adjust those to your liking).

So i have to agree with Daiz, softsubbed karaoke would be great.
Some people assume that nice karaoke means quality, some could care less (like me). Softsubbed \k style karaoke would be easy to make, faster (you don't need to encode it) and has all the advantages of softsub. Karaokestyler could still show of their skills with PVs ;)

Vegard Aune
2008-03-20, 05:55
I don't have a problem with karaoke-effects unless:
1. The lyrics are wrong, which often happens during the first few episodes an opening or ending is used, before the official lyrics become available. Dattebayo is particularly bad at this, where I've actually experienced that I've made a better guess at the lyrics than they did, and I hardly know anything at all about japanese grammar.
2. They're too flashy, like in the second opening in One Piece, where there was a scene where the subtitles literarily flew all across the entire screen, spinning around. They were completely unreadable, which completely defeats the purpose of having them there in the first place.

So yeah, I don't mind karaoke when it's done right, but I'd be just as happy without them. It's not like the lack of a karaoke-track has ever made me think "I am not going to buy this DVD because it lacks fancy karaoke-subtitles!!!!" or anything.

jfs
2008-03-20, 06:41
For the soft-\k topic, playback of plain \k or \kf should not take any additional CPU over what it takes to render a fully static line every frame. VSFilter uses a trick inside the rasteriser to switch over between different colours inside a scanline, it simply calculates "at pixel 342 switch to a different colour for fill" which is pretty much no slowdown at all. (If anyone have read Rasterizer.cpp that's what the 'switchpts' array does.)

Another trick that allows a bit more fancy soft karaoke is actually to split it into several smaller lines that each have a very simple effect. More effects clumped together on one line tends to slow things down a lot.

exedore
2008-03-20, 06:47
No karaoke here...the general feeling is that we've got better things to do with our time like actually watching anime than sit and key in frame by frame effects.

martino
2008-03-20, 06:54
...than sit and key in frame by frame effects.
What?!

Key in frame by frame effects... wth. Don't tell me you typeset in Photoshop... :twitch:

exedore
2008-03-20, 12:12
What?!

Key in frame by frame effects... wth. Don't tell me you typeset in Photoshop... :twitch:

Somebody has never seen one of our releases....I nearly broke my chair laughing after this.

We don't do karaoke. We don't do 80,000 colours and sizes and positions when it comes to dialogue. We have lives and jobs and better uses of our time. Which reminds me, I need to check my rice...

dj_tjerk
2008-03-20, 13:51
I love and hate making karaoke, but it's a good training for a non-creative person as me learn to be creative, learn how to go from an idea to realisation, and this may sound weird, but how to 'organize' that idea in steps (my head is chaotic, there's no start.. there's no end.. frankly, creating a karaoke/painting/whatever doesnt work the same way).

Also, i've never really liked going for the minimalistic approach, it's like studying just enough to get a 6/10. If you do something.. do it good or don't do it at all.

Daiz
2008-03-20, 15:02
I'd suggest doing something actually creative if you want to learn how to be creative... Styling karaoke isn't exactly what I'd call "creative work".

Also, in my opinion, you are free to do as styled karaoke as you want, as long as it can be turned off. There's already an explanation on how this can be achieved with hardsubbed karaoke in this thread.

Tofusensei
2008-03-20, 15:08
It's just a chance for fansubbers to have some fun. Nothing more, nothing less.

Move along please. Nothing to see here.

-Tofu

dj_tjerk
2008-03-20, 16:25
I'd suggest doing something actually creative if you want to learn how to be creative... Styling karaoke isn't exactly what I'd call "creative work".

I don't like painting, it's useless. Fansubbing is what i enjoy doing, so creating karaoke (it's more than running a simple script for me) is what's best for me i guess.

jfs
2008-03-20, 18:32
I consider making karaoke as a kind of "sculpting animated art with program code", it's part envisioning something I want to create and try to make it using the tools available, and experimenting with different things and see how it actually turns out. I don't see how that's really any different from other creative hobbies such as painting or writing prose. Today, writing program code that generates visual effects is an art form in itself, and if the resultant rendered graphics (whether it's text synchronised to a song, a silent film, or just something abstract) isn't art I don't know what it is.
Look at the demo scene (http://pouet.net/) for countless more examples of software art.

@exedore: Don't call it "keying in per frame effects" when you (should) know that it's simply wrong. Generating karaoke effects is writing algorithms that calculate effects per frame to some regular timing, it's quite rare you need to actually control things directly at a per-frame level.
(In other words, don't say one thing that's technically totally off the line if you really mean something else. It makes you look extremely ignorant/stupid.)
I'll leave that part of the discussion here.

As for why I do karaoke and not really anything else:
I made some attempts at translating, my Japanese skill isn't really up to it and I quickly tire from it. For the same reason I don't want to check.
I just don't have the patience to do timing. I don't consider my English good enough for editing. I find typesetting rather boring, really, and tire from it. Also see my opinions on that in another thread.
Getting raws, well, I can do that but other people tend to be faster at finding the good ones than me :) And my encoding skills never truly got to the "able to build a good filter chain" stage.
Programming is what I'm good at and what I enjoy doing, and to me, karaoke effects is a great way of exercising myself. It's in demand so I do it, and since I don't do anything, and since the only thing that can be held back by a missing karaoke is encoding, it can be done in parallel with almost everything else. So in most cases it doesn't actually delay a release.
(Yes, I just argued that you can't use the "karaoke delays release" argument for not making karaoke.)

getfresh
2008-03-24, 15:26
I have been a long time fan of the concept of doing 3 diff opening/endings for shows. First set being raw openings with no credits, no afx titles, no karaoke or translations of any kind. Second set having only the title, credits, and {\k,\K} karaoke with eng, roma, and kanji. Third set being the full thing, effected karaoke, titles, credits, logos, etc... . Then just rotate the sets every episode.

EPI-01 First set
EPI-02 Second set
EPI-03 Third set
EPI-04 First set
EPI-05 Second set
EPI-06 Third set
EPI-07 First set

and so on...

That way pretty much every type of viewer gets to see one opening the way they want to. If ppl bitch about that they are just bitching to bitch.

Shouta
2008-03-26, 01:10
I don't do it. Would use up too much of my time and wouldn't be worth it.

On the whole, I don't think it's necessary. Folks that can sing it will be able to after a few times listening to it anyway so it's just wasted time/space.

sangofe
2008-03-26, 07:40
Well done karaokes are sexy.

shinjipierre
2008-03-26, 12:43
Opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one.

I'd suggest doing something actually creative if you want to learn how to be creative... Styling karaoke isn't exactly what I'd call "creative work".
Creative people are creative with anything. Be it a brush, a pen, toilet paper, pieces of metal or forks. I guess you're not creative enough ;).

getfresh, you're awfully right, there will always be someone to bitch. Just stick with what you think is right :).

Daiz
2008-03-26, 15:01
Creative people are creative with anything. Be it a brush, a pen, toilet paper, pieces of metal or forks. I guess you're not creative enough ;).

I know, I was only half-serious when I said that. But seriously speaking, in the end, styling text and creating text effects is still just styling text and creating text effects. Things like writing / drawing / composing / game developing / other will give you a lot more "creative freedom", so to say. Of course, more creative freedom generally means more work too.

[/offtopic]

dj_tjerk
2008-03-26, 18:10
i feel like i'm limited by the sound of the instruments when i compose a song, or the limits of the language and the words when i'm writing a book, or that i can only see a fraction of the spectrum when i'm drawing and i that i can't actually draw 3d, and that i have to account for the system specs when designing a computer game. Everything has limits, some people don't even get close to them, some try to overcome them. It's up to you >_>

Lonestar9
2008-03-26, 20:39
I enjoy the fancy, colored karaoke graphics, to me it gives a show a unique look and feel, so I'm all for them.

ReAn
2008-03-30, 23:59
Karaoke I feel is like crossing your 7's, it's more like the neat frill that some people (groups) add on for completeness.

Personally I like it, I don't really see any major harm in having it but it's not something I'd delay a release longer than say... 1 day for (not even that long in most cases).

Karaoke is nice, and being that I'm an ex-karaoke timer&stylist it's one of the neater aspects of fansubbing.

pichu
2008-03-31, 09:40
It's really up to you, how you define "Fanciness" of the karaoke.

To me, if you're just matching the song and rhythms, you can do it very simply. In this case, you're just making a karaoke that's easy to 'sing along.'

However, in other cases, when the background (i.e., your opening video) is flashed with fancy effects or special effects, even your simple karaoke would look horrid on top of the scenes, no matter how watchable can your karaoke be on plain videos. In this case, you can make your karaoke "fancier" by matching exactly what appears on the scene, in which it won't destroy the viewing experience of the viewer. So, this type of karaoke can be extremely fancy depending on the scenes.

There are cases when you may want to hybrid this: sing along karaoke (simple) and scene-match karaoke (fancy).

It's really up to how you define 'fancy.' This is purely subjective.

There are cases where people try theme-based karaoke, as if it pertains to the story rather than the song or the scenes. But I would avoid this, because it will be hard to get it done correctly. :)

Haruyasha
2008-04-04, 00:40
I personally hate (hardsubbed) karaoke. I mean, it's ok for op and ed.. but I can't stand it when fansubbers add karaoke into the middle of an episode when some sorta music starts up. It ruins everything because now I have hardsubbed karaoke on 3 sides of the screen flying around taking my eyes off whatever is happening in the center..

I mean.. just a bit of common sense.. I really doubt anyone cares about what the lyrics say when there's action happening..

The recent school days dvd episode.. I appreciate the fansubber's hard work.. but it's painful to see karaoke flying all over the scene which I specifically downloaded the episode for.

Koroku
2008-04-04, 18:08
Whenever I karaoke inserts, I always make it plain \k and try to hide it off in a corner as best as I can. >_>

But I like karaoke, it's fun to make and for the most part, it gives a pretty nice looking final product~

Xanas
2008-04-22, 06:45
I generally like karaoke, though I think it'd be cool to have the ability to copy the subs for use with the R1 released DVDs since we usually get better video quality there. Also the ability to enable/disable at times would be very good. Couldn't a container format be made (or extended) to support some kind of overlay video rendering? Is this because cpus aren't capable of rendering one video over another with alpha blending in real time?

Kristen
2008-04-22, 06:59
I personally despise all karaoke in all forms, finding it nothing but a clutter on the screen. The OP/ED should be in clean and pure form, not with some text flying around jumping out at you. And then sometimes the Karaoke and Fansubbers Credits get to be so much, you see the text, and the OP just becomes a background action.
There have only been two instances of karaoke that I've ever liked, and since both shows are liscenced, I can't talk about it. But really, one of them I liked just because it added to the effect already given by the ED by adding a snowfall to an ED that already had snow on the ground.

Zalis
2008-05-26, 23:06
I generally like karaoke in fansubs, but I wouldn't cry if it were gone. I spent about a year and a half watching anime on R1 DVD only before I started watching fansubs, and I never felt like karaoke was "missing." When I started seeing it, I thought, "Oh hey, that's a nice bonus." I've never thought "omg that release doesn't have karaoke must not DL!" While I have no problem with groups like Triad and a.f.k. doing simple song translations with no effects, I don't have a problem with average fansub karaoke, as long as it doesn't clutter the screen with stupid effects or forget about its #1 mission: to provide a readable translation of the song for people who don't understand the audio. (The same could be said for main dialogue subs tbh.) Karaoke subs don't have to "match" the color of the backgrounds, that's for sure. And really, I'm perfectly satisfied with older, simpler effects, like in AI&A-F's Kanon 2002 release.

The only thing that really bugs with with karaoke is softsubbed karaoke. It's pointless and it just creates lag for a good number of viewers. I'd rather groups just hardsubbed the karaoke even on otherwise softsubbed releases, if they're going to do karaoke effects. People can look for clean OP/ED online if they really need it, and it's not like we're entitled to 100% pristine untouched files free of hardsubs/logos/etc. If they really need that, they can get the raws. Or if 100% softsub is the goal, just do simple song TL with no effects, like Hauu~'s Higurashi Kai release.

edogawaconan
2008-05-26, 23:12
The only thing that really bugs with with karaoke is softsubbed karaoke. It's pointless and it just creates lag for a good number of viewers. I'd rather groups just hardsubbed the karaoke even on otherwise softsubbed releases, if they're going to do karaoke effects. People can look for clean OP/ED online if they really need it, and it's not like we're entitled to 100% pristine untouched files free of hardsubs/logos/etc. If they really need that, they can get the raws. Or if 100% softsub is the goal, just do simple song TL with no effects, like Hauu~'s Higurashi Kai release.
you can turn on pre-buffer subpictures to turn off \k tags on vsfilter

Bot1
2008-05-27, 11:19
if its just a simple \k karaoke then it wont be noticeably slower than a normal line.

_Anakyn_
2008-05-27, 11:37
Karaokes like The Triad's or a.f.k's are the most useful. Losers like me spend hours in postedition programs like AE to entertain a bunch of leechers and have some fun ourselves playing with the effects. I think it's useless, but I'll keep doing them. Why? Don't ask me, ask the blonde girl.

furato
2008-05-28, 07:01
I think karaoke is not necessary and is just dead weight on my CPU with no added value.
But if the fansubbers like doing it, who am I to say they can't do it?

cyth
2008-05-28, 14:24
I think karaoke is not necessary and is just dead weight on my CPU with no added value.If you're talking about softsubbed \k karaoke, you can just turn on Pre-buffer subpictures in VSFilter's DirectVobSub (green arrowy taskbar icon during softsubbed video playback). It will get rid of pretty effects, but subs will take less CPU power.

edogawaconan
2008-05-28, 22:35
If you're talking about softsubbed \k karaoke, you can just turn on Pre-buffer subpictures in VSFilter's DirectVobSub (green arrowy taskbar icon during softsubbed video playback). It will get rid of pretty effects, but subs will take less CPU power.

yay to redundancy (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1616503&postcount=56) :twitch:

Fimbulvetr
2008-05-29, 04:03
The only thing that really bugs with with karaoke is softsubbed karaoke. It's pointless and it just creates lag for a good number of viewers. I'd rather groups just hardsubbed the karaoke even on otherwise softsubbed releases, if they're going to do karaoke effects. (...) Or if 100% softsub is the goal, just do simple song TL with no effects, like Hauu~'s Higurashi Kai release. Allow me to disagree here. There is nothing pointless about softsubbing in general, and that applies to the OP/ED parts just the same. Most subbers that I know of who use softsubbed karaoke do include a version of their subs without any effects, for people without proper renderer or the necessary CPU power. Enabling vsfilter's prebuffering is not the greatest solution imo, but it should disable all effects and thus decrease CPU time, even if it's not just plain \k.
Btw, which fansub groups do softsubbed karaoke? Could you point me to some, I'd really like to see that. I think Mentar still hardsubs even the translation lines of the OP/ED parts .. (correct me if I'm wrong)

People can look for clean OP/ED online if they really need it, and it's not like we're entitled to 100% pristine untouched files free of hardsubs/logos/etc.Noone is entitled to anything at all here but that is beside the point. Of course people can download raws, guess what I'm doing most of the time, but that doesn't make hardsubbing any better.


After this general softsub vs hardsub rant, about karaoke itself: I think most karaoke effects I saw in fansubs are way too flashy and intrusive, it tends to feel like I'm watching the karaoke instead of the actual OP/ED animation. I'm not saying effects can't be a bit more complex than \k - but you only need 'moderate' effects (like simple grow&glow) to already draw away a lot (imo too much) of attention. I'm not even talking about about the more ridiculous stuff like letters moving around half the screen, rotating words, or font sizes bigger than half the screen (ZX Mai-HiME ED anyone?) - that's just too stupid to even comment on.

Mentar
2008-05-29, 04:39
If you're talking about softsubbed \k karaoke, you can just turn on Pre-buffer subpictures in VSFilter's DirectVobSub (green arrowy taskbar icon during softsubbed video playback). It will get rid of pretty effects, but subs will take less CPU power.

True, but the problem with this is that moving ASS signs also stop working, likewise with fades. Therefore, I would not recommend this unless you're working on an absolutely borderline CPU.

Btw, which fansub groups do softsubbed karaoke? Could you point me to some, I'd really like to see that. I think Mentar still hardsubs even the translation lines of the OP/ED parts .. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Eclipse, gg... it depends. Sometimes we hardsub, sometimes we don't. Insert songs are mostly softsubbed.

After this general softsub vs hardsub rant, about karaoke itself: I think most karaoke effects I saw in fansubs are way too flashy and intrusive, it tends to feel like I'm watching the karaoke instead of the actual OP/ED animation. I'm not saying effects can't be a bit more complex than \k - but you only need 'moderate' effects (like simple grow&glow) to already draw away a lot (imo too much) of attention. I'm not even talking about about the more ridiculous stuff like letters moving around half the screen, rotating words, or font sizes bigger than half the screen (ZX Mai-HiME ED anyone?) - that's just too stupid to even comment on.

Well, you just did. And you're such a party pooper :) ... here, have a hanky to cry. *hands over a box of Kleenex*

The Mai-HiME ED is a series of still frames without animation. And here, the effect was to let the Karaoke appear in "free spots" in the still frames. Of course some purists will complain (they always will), but there were several people who enjoyed the relatively unusual approach.

Don't like it - do it yourself or buy the box. Simple as that :)

Light-
2008-05-29, 05:13
If multiple groups are releasing a show, I tend to download the version from the group with the nicest (imo) karaoke (unless they chose a really bad font for the dialogue subtitles)

Why? I like karaoke. As long as the effect flows nicely and doesnt make my eyes bleed. \k and \kf karaoke is a bit plain for me (except in insert songs, then its ok, but for OP/ED karaoke its a bit plain)

I also like to see cool karaoke and wonder/try and figure out how the artist achieved that effect.
It just makes the subs more interesting to me.

Fimbulvetr
2008-05-29, 09:33
The Mai-HiME ED is a series of still frames without animation. And here, the effect was to let the Karaoke appear in "free spots" in the still frames. Of course some purists will complain (they always will), but there were several people who enjoyed the relatively unusual approach.It was unusual , and probably an interesting experiment, and it does get plus points for furigana (I just love that part in jfs' karas) but in all it took too much space. For my taste :p
Of course there are much worse examples, like karaoke that is actually bad. I only mentioned the Mai-HiME ED one because it appeared on a release that actually mattered to me.
Rec OP, ok it was Ayu's after all: characters moving vertically up half the screen; some FMA OP by a group I can't remeber: japanese letters moving diagonally towards the center of the screen while inflating from normal size to even bigger than Mai-HiME ED romaji before they vanish, or Keep's Chrno Chrusade OP which was so overloaded with bad effects I still see it in my nightmares ;)

edit: After rewatching Mai-HiME ED I have to add: It also gets plus points for sticking strictly to revised Hepburn - you don't see ō used that often. If only Eclipse was sticking a bit closer to Hepburn too ..

Mystique
2008-05-29, 10:03
This leads me to my question, what's your opinion on karaoke, karaoke effects, what kind of karaoke would you like to see in fansubs, etc? I'm interested in knowing what other people think about this, since I generally seem to belong to the minority in this subject.

Opinion on karaoke~
It's how I learnt to sing most of the Japanese tunes over the last 4 years to be honest :P
(thinks she's the only person in fansubland who sincerely appreciates and enjoys well desgined karaoke in anime) >.>
I don't do it. Would use up too much of my time and wouldn't be worth it.

On the whole, I don't think it's necessary. Folks that can sing it will be able to after a few times listening to it anyway so it's just wasted time/space.
No... I don't have that talent to pick up lyrics in any language by ear, I needed to memorise the kana and words first, so karaoke was neccesary. :p

I adore them simply because I lived in Tokyo and became a karaoke whore and the majority of my songs I sang were all OP and ED tunes (but I sang them in their full 3/4min version)
So it became a totally fun way to speed up my reading and speaking skills (as well as singing skills) ^^

So yes, lol all karaoke peeps have my sincere appreciation for their time and effort into making them for anime series that I adore and I hope to eventually learn to do this myself someday.

I can only assume those who'd hate them would be encoders, people who hate singing or some TS'ers/K-timers themselves for the effort that's needed or for the processor leeching it does. (for heavy effected ones)

As for what kind of karaoke I prefer to see?
The same kind of design aspects I expect to see on a well made website: simple, looks effortless and actually pertains to its purpose.
Purpose of karaoke (to me) is to show indication of time of the lyrics (and if possible) to set up the next line so the singer can see ahead.

I hate flashy, heavy effect-filled karaoke where the focus is:
'look at the showy effects it has!'
Rather than;
'Here are the words and indication of time presented in a nice simple format, perhaps slightly designed to relate to the theme of the OP or ED'
Same goes with bad use of colour and font in relation to the background it's on or if it's too difficult to read;
Bad design is a general turn off for me.

Schneizel
2008-05-29, 15:40
Rec OP, gg's release iirc: characters moving vertically up half the screen;
That was Ayu's.

mandarb916
2008-05-30, 16:25
don't like subs in OP/ED at all...I get rid of subs when possible anyways (ie. removing the sub track and remuxing, etc)...hate not being able to remove that distraction in OP/ED. I'd snag raws, but older series raws aren't exactly easy or possible to get...

Starks
2008-05-31, 14:30
I don't mind AFX karaoke so long as it isn't ridiculous or overly intrusive.

My view of intrusive and ridiculous is something perhaps best represented by a recent fansub of a popular Spring '08 series. When I watched the encode, I had the pleasure of seeing something that vaguely resembled sperm descending to the middle of the screen as each kana and kanji was highlighted.

Zalis
2008-06-02, 04:30
Allow me to disagree here. There is nothing pointless about softsubbing in general, and that applies to the OP/ED parts just the same. Most subbers that I know of who use softsubbed karaoke do include a version of their subs without any effects, for people without proper renderer or the necessary CPU power. Enabling vsfilter's prebuffering is not the greatest solution imo, but it should disable all effects and thus decrease CPU time, even if it's not just plain \k.
Btw, which fansub groups do softsubbed karaoke? Could you point me to some, I'd really like to see that. I think Mentar still hardsubs even the translation lines of the OP/ED parts .. (correct me if I'm wrong)gg's Geass R2 had softsubbed karaoke with no "plain sub" alternative; needless to say I switched over to Eclipse's release before too long. Sure, I could change those settings to make things smoother, but I'd rather have files that I can DL, open, and play with no problems or extra steps. I realize that softsubbing in general has its advantages, but the karaoke in that Geass release looked worse than the average hardsubbed karaoke, and combined with the playback problems, it added up to the worst of both worlds.

TheFluff
2008-06-02, 08:33
gg's Geass R2 had softsubbed karaoke with no "plain sub" alternative; needless to say I switched over to Eclipse's release before too long. Sure, I could change those settings to make things smoother, but I'd rather have files that I can DL, open, and play with no problems or extra steps. I realize that softsubbing in general has its advantages, but the karaoke in that Geass release looked worse than the average hardsubbed karaoke, and combined with the playback problems, it added up to the worst of both worlds.

you're doing it wrong
(hint: plain \k karaokes aren't perceptibly slower to render than standard text lines are)

jfs
2008-06-02, 16:15
Ok since this has been mentioned a few times recently, let me just give the technical explanation why \k is in practice not any slower to render than plain, static text.

This discussion only covers TextSub (VSFilter), I don't know what other renderers do and their use is still very limited. Also, everything that goes for \k also goes for \kf, \K and \ko. They use the same rendering technique.
This will also explain a funny "artifact" some karaokers might have seen when using \kf with vertical karaoke.

First, while TextSub does have a function that should tell whether a line is animated or not (presumably so it could avoid re-rendering static lines for every frame) that function is empty, it just says "return true;" - yeah, every line is always animated no matter what's in it.

Next, the way \k effects are handled is using a "switchpoints" algorithm.
TextSub renders (up to) three different single-channel 6-bit bitmaps for each line, fill, border and shadow. (Border = Shadow - Fill. Shadow = Fill "expanded" to give an outline.)
When the subtitle is to be painted onto the video, TextSub builds a list of switchpoints for each line component. A switchpoint has two parts: Colour (which includes alpha) and end-coordinate. The end-coordinate is which pixel index on the scanline the colour is valid up till.
(When a line has a vector-\clip, the vector drawing is rendered as a fourth 6-bit image which is used to mask the other layers while painting.)

When there is no \k effect, there is only one switchpoint for each component, which has the colour of it and the end-coordinate set to infinity (actually 0xFFFFFFFF).
When there is a \k effect, the current position of the highlight is calculated for the frame, and a switchpoint is added at the right coordinate. This is very fact to calculate. The pixel size of every syllable is already known (because the rasteriser breaks the line into "words" at every change in formatting - \k tags are formatting) and for \kf effects, getting the position within the syllable is a matter of simple linear interpolation between the endpoints of the syllable.

Now for painting an actual component.
For every scanline of the component, loop over each switchpoint. For each switchpoint, paint its colour to the video frame, using the component as mask and optionally also masking with a vector-\clip mask. When the endpoint of a switchpoint is reached, do the same for the next switchpoint, continuing where the previous one left off.
This is repeated for every scanline of the component. Also very fast.
(The case of just a single switchpoint, ie. no \k effect, is questionably optimised by removing the switchpoints-loop. I think this in practice only saves a few hundred or maybe thousand machine instructions in total for each component, but I haven't checked the actual code.)

For the reason why \k effects don't rotate when you use \frz (and family): They are scanline-based and the switchpoints are assumed to always be on the same coordinate on every scanline. The switchpoints can't change between scanlines for the same component.

I hope this explains why \k effects are fast and can't be a reason for absurd slowdown.
Now, \t effects (of any kind) is a wholly different matter. Those do slow things down, even horribly much. Unfortunately I haven't managed to figure out the real reason behind this.


tl;dr: \k effects are fast, by design they can't be more than marginally slower than static lines.

Soichiro
2008-06-13, 05:14
jfs, I have no idea what you just said. :p

Overall, I think kara is a nice thing to have in a release, but only if it's decent. It has to fit the video/song and not distract from the animation. I also think Triad-style karas can be nice if they're styled properly (such as a.f.k's SZS OP/ED). However, there are some things groups should never do in a kara. One is to use an ugly, blocky font, such as in Ureshii-Saizen's RD. And of course, the other is to have effects flying all over the screen like in Mishicorp's VK OP. Both are very bad practices and can lead to very ugly karas.

However, I don't see why it really matters if a group does kara or not. Yes, karaokes are nice to have, but the important thing people should watch for is the subtitles and the animation. If one group that was subbing a series had translations and editing that were far better than every other group, but their kara was so bad that it was unwatchable, I'd just download theirs and skip the OP/ED every time. If I really wanted to watch the OP/ED of that series I could just download another group's version just for the decent karas.

It seems like the more fancy stuff people come up with, the more they forget what fansubs are supposed to be for.

日本ひきこもり協会
2008-06-13, 14:34
One is to use an ugly, blocky font, such as in Ureshii-Saizen's RD.

Or SHS/The-Metal's RD OP karaoke? Like where you can literally not (or with enough endeavors to calculate pi by hand) read the translation and the unspoken parts.

Karaoke is fine as long as it's not too flashy and readable. Readability is to most important thing after all. Hinting at Mishicorp's VK op karaoke.

Jaka
2008-06-14, 00:19
has anyone watched an op with and w/o karaoke?

it seems like with kara, i just seem to stare at the effects and miss out on the op animation... but w/o, i seem to pay attention to the op animation.

(i think it's how you watch fansubs and pay attention to subtitles, you just can't resist)

is it just me?

max2k
2008-06-14, 13:54
It seems like the more fancy stuff people come up with, the more they forget what fansubs are supposed to be for.

Sorry but you forget that Fansubs are not only for the joyment of the Leachers. The Subber should have some fun working on theyr Projects to, is a Hobby....

Starks
2008-06-16, 15:48
I standby my opinion that Saizen's karaoke for the OP of Soul Eater pretty much set the bar in terms of eye candy/cancer in Spring 2008.

<_<

dj_tjerk
2008-06-16, 16:13
What? And here I'm trying to do my best to make eyecandy/over-the-top kara (http://ana-chan.com/kara/) (that may or may not hurt your eyes :P). I have to admit though, it does look a little bit like sperm ;P (the 'soul' in the episode itself is moving/animated, not a still image.. but i guess doing an animated particle in .ass is deadly)

Oxtail
2008-06-16, 16:25
The SS-Eclipse(I don't know the fansub scene enough to know who to credit) OP for Kyouran Kazoku Nikki from episode 3 onward is everything that people say they hate about fansub karaoke, and yet I consider it a freaking work of art. :D

max2k
2008-06-16, 16:46
Because is fits the OP perfect. And you can say most can be done with creative use of simple Overide Tags, thers only the particel effect in the last vers, wich would requirer LUA. If you not crazy, and try this per normal Automation....

Thers only on littel bug in the OP i think...

getfresh
2008-06-24, 23:21
I honestly do not understand what the big issue is about. If you like the karaoke or don't like it, it shouldn't matter. Fansubs are not meant to be used as a permanent copy. They are meant to be deleted once the show is licensed and distributed in the viewers language. I could understand arguing about this if fansubs were professional releases intended for the consumer market, but they aren't. Instead of complaining about what is annoying you with fansubs, wouldn't that energy be better spent contacting licensing companies and telling them what you would like to see them distribute in your area.

Just a thought.

Daiz
2008-07-05, 15:25
Okay, so nowadays, pretty much "the standard" in fansub karaoke is to have the romaji and kanji on top (or kanji on right/left) and the translation bottom.

While I was on a trip a while ago, I thought about how stupid it actually is; since the romaji is on the top and translation is on the bottom, there's no way to properly follow both of them. You can pretty much focus only on one edge of the screen, so you'd have to do something like glance at the another and then look at the another in order to follow both, which is pretty stupid.

So, I thought about how to improve it and came to the conclusion to drop the kanji completely (because who seriously needs kanji) and have the translation + romaji on bottom. Here's a demonstration, using gg's Macross Frontier karaoke as the base:

http://underwater.dbmd.org/bin/Macross_Frontier_OP_-_Karaoke_test.mkv (60MB)

Includes two subtitle tracks, first being the style I described and second being the original "standard" karaoke.

cyth
2008-07-05, 16:39
There are reasons why you'd want to position romaji away from translation lines. If I'm doing effected romaji + karaoke, it's aesthetically more pleasing to have effected text on one pile. At times you might come across an OP or ED that would have embedded kanji already; again, your personal sense of aesthetics may demand from you to separate effected text from non-effected. Also, why would you want to join romaji and translation to one side of the video only to create clutter? If you want to include subtitles to be as unobtrusive as possible, you need to dilute lines by not having them on one pile, perhaps turn on some transparency. Finally, animation art composition can force you to position subtitles differently from your standard.

I'm not sure what kind of super brain you possess, but I can't possibly follow and sing karaoke, read the song translation and follow the video all at the same time. We can now conclude that this proposition of yours wouldn't change anything. Karaoke distracts us from content, that's a given, but what exactly does your proposition improve if you can't follow the video sequence?

I don't like your writing style, btw. It seems like you're demanding standards (which nobody will follow), and you sound like a douche.

Daiz
2008-07-05, 17:29
I'm not demanding standards or trying to set them, since that would be just silly with fansubbing. This thread is about opinions on karaoke in fansubs, and I wanted to express my thoughts on the subject once again. My post was about "how things could be done too", and I wanted to hear what other people think about it here after talking with some people on IRC about it.

If I'm doing effected romaji + karaoke, it's aesthetically more pleasing to have effected text on one pile.
Then use only little amount of effects or make it so that they do fit together? Surely there couldn't be that huge problem with effecting things in an aesthetically pleasing way as you make it sound.

Also, why would you want to join romaji and translation to one side of the video only to create clutter? If you want to include subtitles to be as unobtrusive as possible, you need to dilute lines by not having them on one pile, perhaps turn on some transparency.
And you're saying having stuff all over the edges of the video (three edges covered at worst with romaji on top, kanji on right/left and translation on bottom) isn't clutter or obtrusive? Personally I might even say this way is less cluttery, since it's pretty much like having a two-line subtitle at the bottom and nothing else.

At times you might come across an OP or ED that would have embedded kanji already
My way doesn't address this obviously, and these aren't really that usual, are they now?

but I can't possibly follow and sing karaoke, read the song translation and follow the video all at the same time.
I don't find that really that hard with the example I provided. It is pretty hard with romaji on top and translation on bottom, though.

dj_tjerk
2008-07-05, 19:09
As I see it, stuff on the top of the screen is more disturbing than stuff on the bottom of the screen. I'd like your idea actually... :) I always watched the stuff on top, but just lately (coming across some older karaoke with both lines at the bottom, and insert kara's with only translation) i've been caring more about the translation (like, what the hell are they saying and how does the animation fit with those lyrics). Reading the translation, watching the OP animation, and seeing this big animated amount of text on top of the screen distracts me..

At the speed at which most songs are sung, I can easily read 2 lines if i want to, so that's no problem either.. Don't get me wrong though, I like pretty karaoke, watching only the nicely animated kana and hearing the lyrics... But I also like watching the translation (with or without non-animated kana) and the OP animation... Frankly, those 2 don't combine (where is my container with on-the-fly stream-on-stream overlay support).

Mystique
2008-07-06, 02:50
Slight curiousity:
Is there anyway to create furigana (or create a small line of hiragana ontop of the kanji you've put in, to align on top of the kanji it's representing?)

If there was such a way, then personally i'd lose romaji.
The anime is japanese, aimed at japanese audience -first and foremost- before we western audience decide to take it upon ourselves to amend it to suit us.
Secondly the song is in japanese, why lose the written script for the language this anime and song and spoken in?
Do we really need the kana? Yes - some of us studying the language or not, learn the words and song and reading from it, we do exist.
Do we really need the romaji?
No, can easily hop down to animelyrics.com if you really want to learn a japanese song and grab the romaji there. (or from so so so many other fansites)
As i'm reading, people (who cant read japanese) want to see the montage of the OP itself + translation, more than learn to sing the song.

It seems from others that you actually like/read the translation (pleasant surprise to me, but worrying now when i see the amount of guesswork/innacuracy of song translations going on post single release).

If the latest OP in naruto is anything to go buy however, already embedded kana may be more common in the future. Japanese do place karaoke on variety shows when they get guests to sing the current song they're promoting, or on special music events on TV, so I guess it's beginning to make its way to anime too.

cyth
2008-07-06, 02:57
Then use only little amount of effects or make it so that they do fit together?There you go again. And I was obviously speaking about karaoke that is heavily effected. I'm not for or against such karaoke, but I do prefer to have simple, unobtrusive or no effects at all. But this conversation isn't just about your preferences or mine.And you're saying having stuff all over the edges of the video (three edges covered at worst with romaji on top, kanji on right/left and translation on bottom) isn't clutter or obtrusive? Personally I might even say this way is less cluttery, since it's pretty much like having a two-line subtitle at the bottom and nothing else.Actually, for this to work I wouldn't use kanji at all. I proposed this by thinking about your video example, since you were, after all, speaking about karaoke without kanji.I don't find that really that hard with the example I provided. It is pretty hard with romaji on top and translation on bottom, though.The great thing about digital video is that you can rewind and rewatch it. This isn't TV. At least to me, reading two lines and following the video can be a bit of a struggle, and I certainly don't believe anyone, even you, can enjoy the video as you would without or very little subtitles to read.

jfs
2008-07-06, 03:00
@Mystique:
Aegisub has supported generating furigana for karaoke effects for about 2 years (I think it is) using some special notation in the raw timed line, and extra code for generating the effect. It should take very little effort to put it in effect-wise if you use kara-templater for generating effects.

Mystique
2008-07-06, 03:04
@Mystique:
Aegisub has supported generating furigana for karaoke effects for about 2 years (I think it is) using some special notation in the raw timed line, and extra code for generating the effect. It should take very little effort to put it in effect-wise if you use kara-templater for generating effects.
If you're still around in some years to come, think i'll bug ya regarding it. It's definitely something worth learning about (if not applying on too) if some people find 3 lines of text as too much clutter.
(and here was i thinking that many skip OP+ED after watching ep 4 or more...) :p
Thanks for that tho ^^

dj_tjerk
2008-07-06, 05:21
If there was such a way, then personally i'd lose romaji.
The anime is japanese, aimed at japanese audience -first and foremost- before we western audience decide to take it upon ourselves to amend it to suit us.
Secondly the song is in japanese, why lose the written script for the language this anime and song and spoken in?
Do we really need the kana? Yes - some of us studying the language or not, learn the words and song and reading from it, we do exist.
Do we really need the romaji?
No, can easily hop down to animelyrics.com if you really want to learn a japanese song and grab the romaji there. (or from so so so many other fansites)


You can also turn that one around, saying that because they're fansubs, aimed at an international audience, one would have to lose the kana because noone can read them, and keep the romaji instead :P If you want to see the kana, you can go to any fansite with the lyrics on them, but there's no need to stick em in the fansub :) I guess it's just a matter of preference, and luckily for the viewers, there's enough to choose from (or steal softsubs and do it the way you see is right).

Personally, as a non-japanese speaker, I could care less about kana. Kanji are just not readable, and eventhough I learned some hiragana from watching lots and lots of karaoke, it takes me way too long to read them so the purpose of it being a karaoke is lost.

Mystique
2008-07-06, 11:37
Naturally, there are two sides to every coin, doi have to write both sides to state the obvious instead of my opinion, lol.
The furigana is the side that provides the hiragana, for those who can read basic japanese. Naturally it'll seem too fast at first, hence you practice no? :p

As for grabbing those kana lyrics, you can't, at least they copy protect like 3-4 japanese main lyric websites that i frequent and stick them in small scrolling windows so printing them, ha not likely; trust me the romaji side is a lot easier as you said, since fansubs cater for the international audience, tons of fans are prepared to share and transcribe scans for you all.

It is a matter of preference then again, we're amending an original video source from a culture that is not ours and to them karaoke on screen is as normal as their 'subs' on their variety show, karaoke in their life is just as normal as pubs in england.
To me personally since i can sing/read kanji and kana and have been learning songs from OP's and ED over the years, it seems kinda... arrogant to strip the written language for a show and song in native language that when we sing, we're speaking their language, we're stepping into their culture.
There's already a huge ass debate on why should we keep japanese honourifics and use words like 'shinagami' when we're supposed to be translating in freaking english, lol.

At least if we're that interested, (in the singing) shouldn't be at least trying to read their script too? People take a trip to japan and hop into a karaoke room, there'll be no romaji to assist you, so it's good practice for this hobby imo :)
(fun too, lol)

Also I've noticed, fansubbers tend to wanna respect or observe the japanese culture more than your average mainstream US industry, so i don't see why karaoke, esp karaoke should be any diff in terms of losing the original kana for the song.

That's my two pence anyways, if i had to choose two lines then it would be furi+kanji (original source) and english translation. (translated output)

Eitherway the 3 lines don't bother me personally, i focus on one depending on what i wanna know (the lyrics or the tl) and another ep, i may focus on a diff thing.
Not that big a deal tbh for 90 secs...

dj_tjerk
2008-07-06, 12:53
At least if we're that interested, (in the singing) shouldn't be at least trying to read their script too? People take a trip to japan and hop into a karaoke room, there'll be no romaji to assist you, so it's good practice for this hobby imo :)
(fun too, lol)
Damnit, I better start learning then.. karaoke rooms seem like a lot of fun :P

But leaving words untranslated but pronounceable is something different than, wtf gibberish..

Oxtail
2008-07-07, 19:16
There are 2 reasons I'll read the karaoke on an anime episode:

1.) To figure out what the song is about

and

2.) To see what's being sung in Japanese


That being said, it makes a lot of sense to group the romaji with the kanji away from the translation. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a vain hope of busting out some cool anime song at a KTV/noraebang/karaoke box in the future, and for that you really do need both the romaji and the kanji. Like someone said above, there's no romaji to help you out when you go karaoke. You need the romaji to figure out which syllables to sing, but you need to be able to sync it with the kanji because that's how you're going to see it at a karaoke place.

If fansub groups can go the extra mile and put small kana over the kanji, it would be a huge boon to aspiring karaoke singers, but that's more of a nice to have. :)

getfresh
2008-07-07, 23:05
There are 2 reasons I'll read the karaoke on an anime episode:

1.) To figure out what the song is about

and

2.) To see what's being sung in Japanese


That being said, it makes a lot of sense to group the romaji with the kanji away from the translation. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a vain hope of busting out some cool anime song at a KTV/noraebang/karaoke box in the future, and for that you really do need both the romaji and the kanji. Like someone said above, there's no romaji to help you out when you go karaoke. You need the romaji to figure out which syllables to sing, but you need to be able to sync it with the kanji because that's how you're going to see it at a karaoke place.

If fansub groups can go the extra mile and put small kana over the kanji, it would be a huge boon to aspiring karaoke singers, but that's more of a nice to have. :)

"small" subs render quite poorly. And increasing the size of the kanji to allow for the "kana" would further crowd the screen which we are already pretty much at limits with. If fans are hoping for something like this they should get the PV raws of the full version songs and place their hopes in someone being kinda enough to create a kara for it. This would be better in the case of ppl hoping to "bust out anime songs in a karaoke booth" since the songs there would normally be the full version anyways, and not the TV remix.

D404
2008-07-08, 19:51
I've said it once, i'll say it again:

Ordered Chapters. :)

martino
2008-07-08, 20:31
I've said it once, i'll say it again:

Ordered Chapters. :)
You're not the only one that's been saying it. But let's face it; It won't happen widely imo. So far I recall that only Daiz (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) has been doing that stuff, and well... try to look (or guess) at the number of encoders capable of doing it... ehrm...

getfresh
2008-07-09, 07:14
headlesscow has mentioned it to me as well when we were discussing changing our "way" of subbing certain elements of the scripts. I think if you are going to go with softsub you guys are right for the extras people want. But I think what I said about the kana holds true either way. Kana helpers are about 1/3-1/4 the size of normal kanji. If you have TS'd a lot you know that when splitting the subs into different areas of the screen you are pushing the limits on how large of a sub you can fit.

And kinda off topic and back on the original one of putting kana in... Just that adding the extra work of adding the kana is just a bit much imo. I can see how the kanji isn't that big of a deal to the TLers since the official lyrics are in kanji to begin with or because they need to write out the kanji to do research on the song. But asking the t/lers, timers, and typesetters to increase their work by 50% so you can learn Jap is a bit much. Not trying to be a dick, but learning Jap from fansubs isn't a good idea to begin with along with the fact we already catch shit from people for being late with releases as is. Increasing our work for something totally unrelated legibility of the subtitles or the accuracy of the translation is something that irks me.

TheFluff
2008-07-09, 11:52
"small" subs render quite poorly.

welcome to the wonderful world of high definition video, where subs are-
oh wait never mind, you probably consider HD unethical, carry on.

getfresh
2008-07-09, 12:44
>.> ... No I consider it unwatchable because I cannot play it on my comp. Nice attempt to troll me though. I thought I already told you I'm not doing it here anymore since it got boring. I personally don't have a major opinion on what format things are encoded. Only thing I ever said about that is I don't like leechers demanding HD releases so they can opt out of actually supporting the industry... Because, and I'm sure we can agree for once, without the monetary motivator of people going out to buy the professional licensed version because they want "higher quality" video, the companies aren't going to do it. Of course it isn't the encoders fault at all imo. These fans who love certain shows so much that they are like rabid dogs when you don't release when they deem you should have. They feel so deeply about these shows that they curse out the groups who are providing them with the ability to even see it the episodes in their language(not sure if this happens to groups other than English fansubs, just making a guess). Yet they aren't willing to spend a dime on actually buying the DVD's. R2 or not. That is what pisses me off.

As far as you encoding what ever format you feel most motivated to use is your own business. Not like it is more of less work for you to use one or the other. I just don't see a point in adding a whole new section of work to our hobbies so 97% of the ppl can go "KOOL! They have more subs that aren't even in English offered now!" .The other 3% of course using it to learn Japanese and further compound to the already slumping reliability of fansub translation accuracy.



And thanks for the heads up on the "small font" thing. I honestly would have never known. I tried increasing the resolution depth via the script in the past just to see if that made any diff, which it didn't so I figured it was just another fun thing to enjoy about textsub.

cowteats
2008-10-18, 03:53
I'm interested to know what anime viewers think about karaokes used in anime subs. I didn't want to post this under "Fansub groups" because I didn't want opinions from only fansubbers.

There are two main kind of karaokes used:

Hardsub: The karaoke is "burnt" into the video itself.
Pros:
-The ability to create fanciful karaokes that you see in most subs today.
Cons:
-does not allow you to turn off the karaoke subtitles.
-may cause slight video degradation(artifacts) in the opening/ending

Softsub:
Pros:
-The ability to turn off karaoke subtitles. Some people are annoyed by the karaoke blocking the op/ed and want to turn them off.
Cons:
- Almost no fanciful effects are allowed, so the karaoke will be plain.
- can only be used on h264/mkv

Hardsub karaoke is the main trend in fansubbing, but there is a shift to softsubs for some groups. What is your opinion on this?

Eczema
2008-10-18, 03:58
I've never really payed much attention to karaoke in the OP/ED. Fancy is nice I guess, but is it really necessary? With hardsubs, I hardly notice/care about artifacts. Softsubs make it easier to grab images from the anime to make avatars and stuff. I would probably go with softsubs, since having the option to turn them on or off is good. But then again, I don't really care much either way.

X10A_Freedom
2008-10-18, 04:07
Softsubs. Karaoke is fine most of the time but in some series where the scenes in the OP play a part in the story (e.g. ARIA), I'd like the option to turn the text off.

Radiosity
2008-10-18, 04:34
Where's the option for 'karaoke is the work of the devil and should be mercilessly destroyed'?

Especially since a huge number of groups seem to think the harder to read and more SHINY the karaoke is, the better. I'm happiest with the groups who put simple romaji up top, english translation down the bottom, and no frills. To be brutally honest though, I've not seen an anime recently that had an op/ed I'd feel like listening to, never mind sing along with :(
Catchy and fun songs seem to be a thing of the past (at least in the few shows I actually watch), with a few notable exceptions.

Solais
2008-10-18, 05:39
Good fancy karaoke is good. Even in Aria, I love how they do it, even thought I only notice karaokes once and twice at least during watching a series. But I prefer hardsubbed karaokes, if they're good, and fit in the mood of the show.

Vegard Aune
2008-10-18, 09:07
I'm interested to know what anime viewers think about karaokes used in anime subs. I didn't want to post this under "Fansub groups" because I didn't want opinions from only fansubbers.

There are two main kind of karaokes used:

Hardsub: The karaoke is "burnt" into the video itself.
Pros:
-The ability to create fanciful karaokes that you see in most subs today.
Cons:
-does not allow you to turn off the karaoke subtitles.
-may cause slight video degradation(artifacts) in the opening/ending

Softsub:
Pros:
-The ability to turn off karaoke subtitles. Some people are annoyed by the karaoke blocking the op/ed and want to turn them off.
Cons:
- Almost no fanciful effects are allowed, so the karaoke will be plain.
- can only be used on h264/mkv

Hardsub karaoke is the main trend in fansubbing, but there is a shift to softsubs for some groups. What is your opinion on this?

SOFTSUBS FTW!
I utterly despise fancy effects, (I don't mind simple stuff, but the more advanced and "eye-catching" the effects are, the more they annoy me) so just having the subs written in a plain font on the top of the screen is my preferred method of doing it. As a matter of fact, I don't really consider HAVING romaji on the screen necessary in the first place.

todkapuz
2008-10-20, 00:16
I guess at times I love them, at times I hate them...

Some of the effects and stylization that have been done are really enjoyable... or when they are done in a way that fits perfectly with the OP/ED ... but there are other times that I would like to just see the original art.. hard to have both eh?

I guess for me, I really like having Kanji (well kanji, hirigana, or katakana as appicable), translation, AND transliteration to romaji... as I am getting to that point in my Japanese study that I can make out the meaning (often) by the kanji, but at times I find it really hard to get from Kanji to spoken word... i know its just a phase, but thats where I am. (and I love to sing along.. okay? :))

Just on a SLIGHT side tangent... I also really appreciate credits done by fansub groups to be fitting to the OP/ED ... and to me it is really nice if they group provides some of the key bits over to english ...

KholdStare
2008-10-20, 03:17
Apparently I posted in this thread before and I'm too lazy to check what I posted so I have no clue what I said.

I personally love fancy karaoke. Some people are under the impression that fancy directly translates to hard to read, and I disagree. Of course, if karaoke are fancy and hard to read, then that's bad. Believe or not, there are some great karaoke out there that I really love. Off the top of my head, I recall SS-Eclipse's Hayate no Gotoku, gg-Eclipse's Manabi Straight, SS-Eclipse's Clannad AS, SS-Eclipse's Kyouran Kazoku Nikki, SS-Eclipse's Code Geass R2, and ToyBox's Mamoru-kun (a bit over the top but I love it).

Back to the original question, I prefer softsubs. It was actually half and half, but there were times when I despised hardsubs because I was trying to get a screen capture or something similar. I remember being mad at SS-Eclipse because they hardsubbed the karaoke in the middle episode 48 of Hayate no Gotoku.

What I really hate is using black and white for karaoke. That actually makes it hard to read (hello Menclave's ef - a tale of melodies), and sometimes a contrast between fill and border can make a big difference in readability.