[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch [Archive]

Rias

2008-07-07, 16:44

This thread is for discussions regarding Umineko Ep3, which will be released on C74. This thread can contain various spoilers for Ep1 and Ep2.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wikipedia
Umineko no Naku Koro ni on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umineko)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Links to other Umineko threads in AS Forums:

original doujin games
Umineko no Naku Koroni - Ep. 1 Legend of the Golden Witch (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=53070)
Umineko no Naku Koroni - Ep. 2 Turn of the Golden Witch (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=59968)
Umineko no Naku Koroni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the Golden Witch (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=68453)
Umineko no Naku Koroni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the Golden Witch (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=74652)
Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Translation Project (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=65140)

images
Umineko Image Thread (wallpapers, fan art, gifs, etc.) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=59969)
Umineko Avatar & Signature Request Thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=69582)

music
Umineko music discussion (OP/ED, game soundtracks, dramaCDs etc.) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=65812)
Umineko music videos (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=68759)

manga
Umineko no Naku Koroni - manga thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=68716)

anime (unaired as of June 2008)
Umineko no Naku Koroni (TV) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=68713)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/Up_cg/474.jpg
CD Jacket "Anti-mystery vs Anti-Fantasy"
http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/Up_cg/473.jpg

New Potrait
http://07th-expansion.net/umi/bea3.jpg

Sterling01

2008-07-07, 17:26

Where would you order to get the pre-order goods if you live in the US?

Troyd

2008-07-07, 17:38

I saw it in niconico thirty minutes ago xD
Belphegor in the cover and not Asmodeus ＼(^o^)／
And that looking Witch-Maria in the portrait? Her hair is like the sailor Maria-looking girl @__@
And what are those preorder goods? xD the Jessica pic looks like an image of a holding pillow o_o

Rias

2008-07-07, 17:53

Actually I have mis-read...it's not a pre-order bonus for ep3. Rather, it's a promotion from mandarake that starting 7/19, if you buy either ep2, any higurashi game, or 2100 yen worth of new doujins, you get one of the 5 slim posters. To get it from US, your might have to use some sort of deputy service.

As to the real pre-ordering goods, seems that only Toranoana and Melonbooks is going to do it, and they will have it up for pre-order next week.

Nabiki Asakura

2008-07-07, 18:20

I saw it in niconico thirty minutes ago xD

link now!!!

Troyd

2008-07-07, 18:37

Mmmm? I don't know why do you want it, since it's just the same images that Rias put, but if you want o_o ...
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm3874977

And it's a shame that mandarake spanish version doesn't sell that goods, since I was planning on buying a lot of doujinshi the next month, oh caca! T__T
And I wonder what be including the preorder edition in toranoana and melon books, a character telephone card with Ryukishi art? xD

Nadeor

2008-07-07, 19:50

Horray for EP3 Thread ^O^
Time to leave my name here on the first page!

Rias

2008-07-08, 00:35

Currently 2ch is going nuts over one article that states that the person in the potrait is Maria...to add oil to the fire, the entry has just been taken down, that could mean 1 of the 3 things:

1. Entry was wrong, and Ryukishi07 sent in his complains to have it taken down
2. Entry is actually a giant spoiler, and Ryukishi07 sent in his complains to have it taken down
3. Under maintenance...but other entries works fine.

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/3163/viploader694692ds1.th.jpg (http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=viploader694692ds1.jpg)

Does this implies that Maria = Beatrice? Or just everyone is going to get their chance on the portrait :heh:

Nabiki Asakura

2008-07-08, 00:41

Mmmm? I don't know why do you want it, since it's just the same images that Rias put, but if you want o_o ...
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm3874977

because, ahn.......I.............love...........videos?XD

Nadeor

2008-07-08, 03:20

I knew Nabiki would never let us down XD
Keep going there!

crazysjd89

2008-07-08, 04:43

I've been so hyped up about this for awhile, I don't think I can wait a month and a half for it.

1. Entry was wrong, and Ryukishi07 sent in his complains to have it taken down
2. Entry is actually a giant spoiler, and Ryukishi07 sent in his complains to have it taken down
3. Under maintenance...but other entries works fine.

Would Ryukishi07 really do that when he encourages people to speculate? Or was it like inside knowledge or something?

Troyd

2008-07-08, 08:35

Well, Maybe it's that to announce that she is Maria was too hasty, because it could be that she is a new character, after all, in the portrait she has got green eyes (apparently), Maria has got blue eyes, that can be an evidence that they are different people.

Sterling01

2008-07-08, 12:28

Nadeor

2008-07-08, 22:59

But that's probably what we all figured, all characters are mysterious

melange

2008-07-13, 19:04

Or is it Maria = Lambdadelta?

Klashikari

2008-07-13, 19:09

That would be a bit too far stretched, though the removal of the portrait is quite intriguing.
That said, is that really a spoiler? I mean,
usually, portrait is shown quite early so being a spoiler, it would change drastically how the usual plot goes on.

I believe it is rather answer 1.

Rias

2008-07-13, 21:43

AkibaOS has put back the entry, and added a question mark at the end of the sentence so now it reads "The person on the protrait is Maria?" isntead. :heh:

Sterling01

2008-07-13, 22:01

AkibaOS has put back the entry, and added a question mark at the end of the sentence so now it reads "The person on the protrait is Maria?" isntead. :heh:
Wow..... real slick guys :heh::heh:

melange

2008-07-13, 23:56

That would be a bit too far stretched
Well the "style" of clothing in the portrait resembles Lambdadelta...

Though thats not much to go on cos I thought at first the "style" of clothing for the second portrait resembled Jessica :heh:

Nadeor

2008-07-14, 00:32

Lambdadelta has blonde hair
Also it's announced as Maria already

Above that, anyone noticed the connections between Higurashi arcs and Umineko arcs?

Onikakushi-hen, introduction to Neck-Scratching
EP1. Legend of the golden witch, First Twilight: Face-shaving

Watanagashi-hen, introduction to Stomach-Opening
EP2. Turn of the golden witch, First Twilight: Stomach-Cutting

I wonder if EP3 will be similar to Tatarigoroshi-hen...
(Battler 'falling' off the ship XD)

Klashikari

2008-07-14, 00:37

Well, it is quite blatant, as episode 1 put a more blunt emphasis on the similarities: Maria's letter has uncanny similar sentences than Keiichi's.
On the other hand, the ones for Episode 2 with Meakashi-hen are a bit more "difficult".

That said, the third title itself is quite... "gruesome" for those who finished episode 2. I just hope we won't have some "how to cook with Anibal lect... oops, Beatrice-sama!" scenes again, or it might be really insane :heh:

Nadeor

2008-07-14, 00:40

I just hope the Banquet which Ryukishi07 present to us will be abundant with Killings and Stakes for sides
Ryukishi07 already explained to the readers, that it is necessary to use the logics from Higurashi, but it's unappliable to explain solely based on that

Sterling01

2008-07-14, 09:33

That said, the third title itself is quite... "gruesome" for those who finished episode 2. I just hope we won't have some "how to cook with Anibal lect... oops, Beatrice-sama!" scenes again, or it might be really insane :heh:

But that was the best part of episode 2...
I wonder how many new music tracks there's going to be?

Rias

2008-07-16, 15:00

Sterling01

2008-07-16, 15:54

The portrait has been put up on the offical webpage, and has the link: http://07th-expansion.net/umi/bea3.jpg

Portrait = Beatrice confirmed? Or does Bea3 means Bea-something, such as Beazawachiyo?( Be-a => Bear =>Kuma =>Kumazawa? :heh:)
It could be the real "Beatrice" the one responsible for the wealth of the family and not the Witch Beatrice that Ep1's Battler is with.

Nadeor

2008-07-16, 22:19

I can't see the resemblance...
However I thought it was confirmed as Maria...?
But still...the summer comicket is only weeks away!
Guys, get ready for some serious Umi-ing XD

crazysjd89

2008-07-17, 02:27

This might be kind of farfetched, but...

I wonder if Beatrice is a "blanket term" which is used to describe women who have had a huge effect on Kinzo's life, and that's why the portrait keeps changing. And maybe the first woman was the actual Beatrice, and he was really in love with her, so he started seeing other women as "Beatrice".

If we assume the portrait will change one more time in Volume 4 and then loop through again in the answer arcs, that means there are 4 different Beatrices, and the "gifts" might correspond to the impact each Beatrice has had on his life.

"One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land. " Most likely a Beatrice who helped Kinzo and gave him the gold.
"One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead. " I'm not sure about this one. Maybe one who got him into black magic at first? Or perhaps it's the only woman to be able to promote her pawn to her dead queen in Chess against Kinzo!</EndBadChessPun>
"One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love. " could be a Beatrice that Kinzo fell in love with.
"One shall be, to put the Witch to sleep for all time. " I have a couple of thoughts on this one, but mostly thinking this is Kinzo's wife, which might be completely illogical due to things previously said. Or perhaps it's a woman who "hasn't happened yet"(lack of better term) and is the one who will stop Kinzo's obsession with Beatrice.

Like I said, it's a bit farout, but I thought it was interesting :heh:

I'm going to see if I can link this to the riddle at the beginning of the inscription.

Rias

2008-07-17, 02:31

I can't see the resemblance...
However I thought it was confirmed as Maria...?
But still...the summer comicket is only weeks away!
Guys, get ready for some serious Umi-ing XD

No one ever confirmed who is on the portrait...

Nadeor

2008-07-17, 07:51

theacefrehley

2008-07-17, 09:18

Nice theory...But I still think that is a key point to the world's changing patterns
Like how Frederica Bernkastel reviewed to Rika prior to the beginning of the world of Minagoroshi-hen, she explained the rules XYZ, which are the rules that existed in all worlds. Upon knowing this, Rika finally defeated Miyo in Matsuribayashi-hen

So I think, that the patterns of how the portrait changes is a key point to how the world organized. Even if it's just only Rule X exists, Battler still has a chance

From what I remember
Bernkastel never talks to Rika, only to the readers

If I'm not mistaken, Rika doesn't even use the words 'rule x, rule y, rule z' even though she is aware they are at work

So, I don't think Battler can count with Bernkastel's help :heh::heh:

Sterling01

2008-07-17, 12:58

From what I remember
Bernkastel never talks to Rika, only to the readers

If I'm not mistaken, Rika doesn't even use the words 'rule x, rule y, rule z' even though she is aware they are at work

So, I don't think Battler can count with Bernkastel's help :heh::heh:
Bernkastel and 34-tan are talking to Battler in the 2nd Hidden tea party

Rias

2008-07-17, 15:22

Rika didn't defeat Takano becuase she knows about Rule XYZ. Rather, it's arguable that she knows about the rules, or at least the components of it, before, as hinted by her revelations to Akasaka in Himatsubushi-hen. However, as we can see, due to her stance and lack of effort, added with the strong will that drives Rule Y (which in turns feeds Rule X and Z), she was unable to do anything to prevent the tragerdy.

The key to victory in Matsuribayashi-hen is the miraculous disappearance of Rule X, enlisting and dissolving Rule Z, and preventing Rule Y from happening by knowing who the true culprit is before Rule Y happens.

theacefrehley

2008-07-17, 17:52

Well,
Rika knows that someone most probably will go nuts in every world, so she is kind of aware of rule X
She knows that takano, tomitake and Rika always die, so Rule Y (the strog will that always makes it happen)
And she is pretty aware of the atmosphere of Sonozaki/Hinamizawa and the whole stuff about the Sonozaki being 'potential' suspects of everything that happens => rule Z

She just doesn't give the name 'rule' to the facts above

Bernkastel and 34-tan are talking to Battler in the 2nd Hidden tea party

To me they are talking to the readers
There's nothing indicating they are talking to Battler

Nadeor

2008-07-17, 21:51

I was talking about in the Manga version of Minagoroshi-hen
The first chapter is "Frederica", which is the conversation held prior to the beginning of Minagoroshi-hen, sadly Rika only remembered few things but forgotten what's important

And to Ace:
Yes it is indicated that they were talking to the depressed Battler
from what I can see, it happened this way chronologically:

EP2 -> EP2 Hidden Tea Party -> EP2 Tea Party

Since Battler's depressed because he was defeated, Bern and Lambda decided to 'cheer him up' in different ways (Although Lambda does not seem like she's trying to cheer him up)
Then Battler returns to the surface tea party of EP2, of which Rosa is been tortured by Beatrice, and smashed Beatrice's face onto the table...or a dish?
Evidence:
Beatrice mentioned in the Surface tea party, that Battler has been cheered up by 'some other witches'
Which is the "Lord of the Nippa" and "Super-Paper"...O_o

Sterling01

2008-07-17, 23:02

Since Battler's depressed because he was defeated, Bern and Lambda decided to 'cheer him up' in different ways (Although Lambda does not seem like she's trying to cheer him up)

Lambda was trying to show her dere side :heh::heh:

Nadeor

2008-07-17, 23:39

Ryukishi probably gave all 3 witches a type of personality...
Bern would be Yangire~*cough cough* Watanagashi-hen**
Lambda would be Tsundere yeap
Battler is M
and Beatrice is Nisemusume + S XDDDD

Sterling01

2008-07-18, 00:18

Bern would be Yangire~*cough cough* Watanagashi-hen**
Lambda would be Tsundere yeap
Battler is M
and Beatrice is Nisemusume + S XDDDD

Well Battler is Beato's M-slave :heh::heh:
Though I think Beato wants Battler to make her his M-slave. Kinda the whole point of their game.
I don't see how Beato is a Nisemusume :confused:

theacefrehley

2008-07-18, 07:27

Nabiki Asakura

2008-07-18, 18:48

Sorry if somebody told it before, but, the with is beatrice-sama.

http://07th-expansion.net/umi/bea3.jpg

look at the link

http://07th-expansion.net/umi/bea3.jpg

momobunny

2008-07-18, 21:32

Sorry if somebody told it before, but, the with is beatrice-sama.

http://07th-expansion.net/umi/bea3.jpg

look at the link

http://07th-expansion.net/umi/bea3.jpg

Thanks for clearing that up! =3 I never believed that that was Maria, the hair color and style are different and it doesn't look much like her to me... so it being confirmed that it's Beatrice makes sense. ^^

EDIT: Errrrr not? O.o;

Sterling01

2008-07-18, 22:08

Sorry if somebody told it before, but, the with is beatrice-sama.

http://07th-expansion.net/umi/bea3.jpg

look at the link

http://07th-expansion.net/umi/bea3.jpg
That doesn't mean anything

Nabiki Asakura

2008-07-18, 22:19

That doesn't mean anything

if doesn't mean anything, why someone wrote "bea3" in an image that's not beato ?

Sterling01

2008-07-18, 22:23

if doesn't mean anything, why someone wrote "bea3" in an image that's not beato ?

What Rias said...

The portrait has been put up on the offical webpage, and has the link: http://07th-expansion.net/umi/bea3.jpg

Portrait = Beatrice confirmed? Or does Bea3 means Bea-something, such as Beazawachiyo?( Be-a => Bear =>Kuma =>Kumazawa? :heh:)

Or it could also be another Beatrice it doesn't have to be Beato

Nadeor

2008-07-18, 22:32

As for the manga,
Nothing more reliable than the game :D
And Rika doesn't remember that talk, so, it's as if it didn't exist

As for Umineko
Seriously,
I read it again and I couldn't find this part of 'being cheered up by some other witches' being said to Battler, really

I think it was in the Surface Tea Party...
I could be wrong, but I'm sure they are talking to Battler
After all, we aren't the one's that's making the decisions, so we can't make Bern cry, and Lambda definitely is speaking to someone in front of her

Nabiki Asakura

2008-07-18, 22:37

May I use this topic to ask something? My friend are asking me if beatrice's tatoo is a butterfly or the family simbol(seacat :cool:). I answered that's the simbol, but another friend is telling that is a butterfly, so, can someone tell me, just for sure? Thanks

And, about the portrait...well, we need to wait so, and i'm thought that I have found something good _ _'

chronotrig

2008-07-18, 22:39

Well I think we can at least guess that it's the third portrait of Beatrice whether it's actually her or not. Ryuukishi said this game would be a confrontation between mystery and fantasy, but judging from the screens, it's leaning heavily on the fantasy side.

And that staff looks like something from negima:twitch:

Sterling01

2008-07-18, 22:40

After all, we aren't the one's that's making the decisions, so we can't make Bern cry, and Lambda definitely is speaking to someone in front of her

That's why I thought they were talking to Battler

May I use this topic to ask something? My friend are asking me if beatrice's tatoo is a butterfly or the family simbol

It's the family symbol

chronotrig

2008-07-19, 03:35

The official website for the anime, umineko.tv, is up and running, and filled with lots and lots of nothing.

Nadeor

2008-07-19, 07:39

The mark on Beatrice's shirt is "The one-winged Eagle"
It is the family symbol of Ushiromiya, which is considered sacred amongst the family and only the true members can bear it on their clothes or skin as a tattoo(like Eva), exceptions are made such as Genji, Kanon and Shannon

One-Winged Eagle meant something I suppose... after all the same mark appeared on the mysterious girl of EP3's staff

ClockWorkAngel

2008-07-19, 13:30

Ugh I ought to read more of the trans before I shout out theories; but regardless humour me.

Perhaps the symbol is adapted from Beato's sign instead of the other way around?

Why else would our moe-stakes have the symbol on their skirts?

Nadeor

2008-07-19, 20:50

Good point...
Yeah it could, since nobody knows for sure, and Kinzo definitely had some connections with Beatrice so that's possible
Of course~Gohda probably went "OMFG WHERE DID U WH*RES GET THE SYMBOL!?"
Upon been shouted, Beelzebub was pissed and killed Gohda: "Oops~"
That's the story XDDDD

theacefrehley

2008-07-20, 08:48

Just saw in the website

episode3　Banquet of the golden witch
（DVD－ROM　エピソード１　エピソード２同梱）
コミックマーケット２日目　８月１６日（土）
西１ホール　れ52a　07th Expansion　にて頒布
８月１７日より各ショップ様にて委託販売開始!!!
【動作環境】
●OS:Windows XP　●DVD－ROMドライブ
●HDD:1.5GB 以上の空き容量
●ディスプレイ:640×480（FullColor 表示可能な機種）
●メモリ:128MB 以上　 ●DirectX 8.0a 以降
●サウンド:DirectSound に対応したサウンドカード
（Windows98　Me　Vistaでも多分大丈夫です）

Episode 2 is around 900MB (when it was released, the system requirements were 1GB)

Now, for episode 3, the system requirement is 1.5GB
What could this mean (since the text/script requires very few HD space)?
Bunches of new songs?
New videos?
Bunches of new faces for the paper dolls?
voices? (dreams...) :D

ClockWorkAngel

2008-07-20, 09:55

1.5 gb?! This is assuming that it doesn't include the other episodes; then it's huge!

EDIT: I prefer beato with her hair done, but who knows who that painting is.

Rias

2008-07-20, 13:55

There are various theories regarding the wing symbol, such as the orientation of the wing and the position, but it's as solid as the Battler = woman theory.

Notice how the female from the Ushiromiya bloodline all the "a" at the end, while the male doesn't? E-ba, Ro-za, Je-shi-ka, Ma-ri-a? That means, Ba-to-ra is actually a woman too! :heh:

P.S. By this theory, Battler has a brother instead of a sister.

ClockWorkAngel

2008-07-20, 16:33

No it all makes sense, those hormones she talks about in the beginning! Battler must be a girl!

Nadeor

2008-07-20, 23:53

Rias...yeah that could be
but Battler has a -to in his name, which makes him rather male...
and Beatrice would be rather pissed than amazed XD

theacefrehley

2008-07-21, 04:37

1.5 gb?! This is assuming that it doesn't include the other episodes; then it's huge!

EDIT: I prefer beato with her hair done, but who knows who that painting is.

It includes the other episodes
but text data doesn't weigh anything in all these MBs... it could have 10 episodes and it wouldn't change much

Rias

2008-07-22, 11:45

Taken from diary:
http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/Up_cg/472.jpg

Real person:
http://ca.c.yimg.jp/movies/1046185200/img.movies.yahoo.co.jp/pict/wiredimage/7d/1c/w224503-view.jpg

http://blog.kage-yama.com/media/1/20060418-007koneri.jpg
http://when-they-cry.net/umi/cha/kin1.jpg
And the personality of Sean Connery is abit similar to Ginzo...Sean Connery hasn't given his son a single dime to support him. One of them "lion pushes its cub into a ravine to force it to fend for itself" thing...

Sterling01

2008-07-22, 16:10

Troyd

2008-07-22, 16:12

Wooow, another character, and he looks like Johnny, good! This is going to be the best episode, I can't wait to the next comiket :3

Rias

2008-07-22, 17:45

I would have to say "No" on Johny Depp but Is it just me or do we already have triple the amount of Characters then Higurashi had

If you are refering "characters with a portrait", then perhaps. If not, then Higurashi still has way more characters in it...

momobunny

2008-07-22, 18:00

Rias

2008-07-22, 18:18

Umineko has 28 that appeared so far... not including Anju or the new "Johny Depp" guy.

And on the Higurashi wiki page I counted 28... but I'm pretty sure that there are still a few missing characters... like Nomura...

They're both pretty close, I guess it's just the different setting and story that makes it seem like Umineko has more. I think Umineko has more MAJOR characters than Higurashi did but it seems to have less minor characters.

Please correct me if I'm wrong though. D=

They are missing a whole bunch of minor characters in that wiki. There are the Sonozaki Uncles (like 5-6 of them), parents of the club members, classmates that has names (like Okamura and the other guy...can't remember top of my head), Miyo's childhood friends from the orphanage, Tokyo faction people such as Koizumi...list goes on. It's even bigger if you count people without names, like all those guys in the Yamainu that only has callsigns.

Umineko...currently Main cast 18, witches 3, named characters 9 (from Asumu to Kawada to the lawyer Watanabe), stakes 7, random nameless people 3 (captain of the ship in ep1, servent who got injured on the job, Maria's father), sitting at 40. Oh and "Johnny Depp" = 41. :heh:

Nadeor

2008-07-22, 22:30

Don't care the amount of chars we have here
as long as Ryukishi07 gives us a logical explanation to all the events, it's fine =.=

Rias

2008-07-23, 15:22

More speculations (english lines taken from translations by theacefrehley):

From ep1->2, we see that "Beatrice has granted some wishes" for endroll of 1, shown from the 3 lines at the end:

"For George it was the fiancee he lost." -> George flirts with Shannon and gets to die with her.

"For Jessica it was the person in her thoughts she lost." -> Kannon Blade, and gets to die together

"For Maria it was the love of her mother she lost." -> Rosa Musou

Now, for 3 to respond to 2's enroll...
"Kinzo wanted the fiancee he lost." -> REAL Beatrice shows up in person?

"Maria wanted her mother's love she lost." -> Rosa Musou, this time Rosa has the full gauge and level 4/5 weapon?

"Genji wanted a peaceful sleep." -> Genji dies in the beginning? :heh:

ClockWorkAngel

2008-07-23, 20:24

It would be interesting if Beato came out, but I doubt it would happen. Seeing as it would almost confirm that she did it, even though we have to prove she didn't. Maybe it's a Beatrice, we'll figure it out soon enough.

Nadeor

2008-07-23, 22:27

Umineko is not something which a normal human being can solve
Just like Higurashi, it abuts the realm of unsolveable but does not go across the line
So who here agress that Umineko & Higurashi > Harry Potter?

Elvin

2008-07-23, 22:57

why are you even comparing the two ._.

Nadeor

2008-07-24, 03:51

Because...I can and it's free...?O_O

tobiast88

2008-07-24, 14:11

Ryukishi07 wrote Harry Potter? That's new.

Rika_Chama

2008-07-24, 17:59

Because...I can and it's free...?O_O

Hey thats just like maplestory o.0
if u did get it from the commercial
but where did the harry potter part come from

ClockWorkAngel

2008-07-24, 21:18

They're two different genres.

Besides the list of flaws in the Harry Potter world is immense. And let's not even mention how badly the ending went.

But this isn't time for a flame war.

I only wish for more appearances from our moe-witches

Nadeor

2008-07-24, 21:37

Just asking everyone's opinions, that's all, not trying to start a flame war
Besides, Harry Potter doesn't have the weird deaths we have here XD
So it's 1 for Umi XD

Yeah I got that from Maple Story
My younger cousin was addicted recently and he kept repeating that phrase whenever I ask him a question involving Why
So I figured it's time to Ultra-Quote

Elvin

2008-07-24, 22:55

I just thought it was wierd that you suddenly brought up HP out of the blue. Did you just finish reading one or something? Don't think we can properly compare umineko with anything before we read the ending.

Nabiki Asakura

2008-07-25, 00:19

Just thinking something, I don't want to interrupt the discurssion about HP, so i'll post it using spoiler XD

And if this man:

http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/Up_cg/472.jpg

is an adult(and not old) Kinzou and the girl in the portrait is the real Beatrice?

And if Kinzou is a pedophile? No, seriously, maybe...

...or maybe I'm wrong and everyone will say "boooooo"

....................................boo :cool:

Nadeor

2008-07-25, 07:08

Alright you guys have a point =v=

...Eh Nabiki... that's good but it just sounds wrong O_O
I've got another theory here:

According to the theory in F/SN, Shiro became Archer and came back to see Saber again
So My theory would be:

At EP8, when Battler finally defeated and solved Beatrice and her impossible chess game
Beatrice's dark self disappeared, leaving the good but dying Beatrice behind
Battler at this point, fell in love with Beatrice already
Realizing her remaining time will not be long, Battler asked Lambda and Bern to grant him a wish
He asked them to keep his memory and send him back to the past, so he can learn a way to save Beatrice before it's too late
Bern and Lambda agreed, they used their abilities and sent Battler back in time to decades ago

Battler then worked extremly hard, after he had founded the Ushiromiya Family, he began to study Black Magic, eventually lost himself in it
He thought himself is Kinzo, and he changed his name
So in return, after years of hard working, the year of 1986 finally arrived
Yet Battler still hasn't found any way to save Beatrice

So that's the reason why Kinzo wants to apologize to Beatrice:
Because he can not make it in time to save her

ClockWorkAngel

2008-07-25, 07:42

There's actually no proof that Beato is actually evil at all. She hasn't done anything actually evil.

I find her quite benevolent actually, if what Bernakastel was right, she isn't doing anything; so the repeating events are all Beato's doing, if she really wanted to kill them all she wouldn't bother with finding different possibilities. In a way she's giving Battler more and more chances.

The way she is depicted is meant to make her look evil, but she has to play the role of the bad guy or else the whole story would seem just like Higurashi.

That's my theory or now til I lose faith! May Beatrice the Golden bless us all!

EDIT: Also I can't seem to find a clean version of the portrait for Beato in ep1.

Nadeor

2008-07-26, 07:51

You mean the EP1 portrait?
I have it, hold on I'll upload it somewhere...

Edit:

Sry I only have the version for it with the Logo...
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w273/NNN1812/Witch.jpg

ClockWorkAngel

2008-07-26, 20:42

I always wondered; the dress is made of layers? That must be quite heavy.

And who do you suppose made all those paintings?

Nadeor

2008-07-26, 21:17

Ryukishi hired someone to do the paintings
So I guess of all episodes the paintings will be new everytime

Taiyakikung

2008-07-26, 23:34

I have a question about three witches.What's their power?I guess each witch has different
power.

Klashikari

2008-07-27, 03:08

Beatrice: her power is said to make her able to kill anyone undefinitely.
Bernkastel: her power is said to make the world repeat as long as a probability exists, however unprobable/low it is.
Lambdadelta: her power is said to make her able to kill anyone without fail.

The "mechanics" in their powers works like rock paper scissors: Beatrice has the upper hand against bernkastel because Beatrice will repeat the process undefinitely due of her "limitless", which renders Berkastel powers meaningless. Bernkastel defeated lambdadelta because "without fail", absolute rule doesn't work for their world, and by repitition of the tragedies, she won in a "endurance" contest with lambdadelta.
Lambdadelta can "defeat" Beatrice as her power doesn't go in fancy fashion and she kills the target designated.

Nadeor

2008-07-29, 08:46

Yeah what Klashi said~

Sterling01

2008-07-29, 11:18

Also since Battler inherited "black blood" he has magical resistance so the Stakes and the witches' powers don't affect him.

ClockWorkAngel

2008-07-29, 19:46

But then again one may argue that Kinzo should be unaffected too. A contradiction that battler has I believe yet make.

Nadeor

2008-07-29, 22:00

Probably cause because of Battler's mom (Asumu)
We don't know about her yet, we only knew that she had died some time ago
Since like in DBZ, Saiyan X Earth > Saiyan
So Battler might have the ability that we don't know yetj

Ex) The ability of been able to point "Objection!" to everything XDDDDD

ClockWorkAngel

2008-07-30, 10:15

And the "Black Blood" SHOULD be hieritary; but seems rather rare seeing as only Battler has it and Maria is the one who is capable of using magic (Or atleast seems like she can) There's no evidence that any one else in the family has those attributes.

Asashio123

2008-07-30, 14:00

I don't know, shouldn't it be alright if Battler inherited his "Black Blood" from his mother? His biological mother is probably not an Ushiromiya, and thus, it would be logical that no one else in the family has resistance to the Stakes. Battler is the only one who is biologically related to his mom, no?

And I was under the impression that Rosa and maybe Jessica have magical abilities, but only Maria knows magic, because Beatrice taught her.

Gleh, maybe I'm missing something. I didn't do very well with reading Umineko.

Sterling01

2008-07-30, 14:18

ClockWorkAngel

2008-07-30, 17:45

But maybe his mother had something to do with actually causing the genes to exist; maybe its a rare gene that can be easily overwritten by others; maybe his mom is special; who knows?

Rias

2008-08-07, 13:04

From the Diary, "Please Press Start Button"
http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/Up_cg/474.jpg

Ginzo's room theme.

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-07, 20:58

His rooms looks nice, must have a great view from there.

Nadeor

2008-08-07, 21:57

Umineko can be a mindfuck if not read carefully
However, I'd favor the theory of non-magical killings
But there's still one thing which I don't get...

If the killer meant to kill everyone like the epitaph foretold
Why not just kill everyone in the first place, and what's the point of proving magic exists to someone who will die shortly after?

If the murderer's goal is to get the hidden gold
Then why not just kidnap Kinzo or some family members and torture them, make them tell where the gold is, that would be a whole lotta easier

So my guess will be, the murderer is either connected with Beatrice in some ways or he/she has some other objectives to obtain before everyone dies

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-07, 23:32

well there are some good reasons.

1. If the killer kills everyone, s/he wouldn't be able to find the gold. Its incredibly well hidden and the such. The murder must somehow make it look like magic so that s/he can't be caught, and also so to instate fear and uneasiness into the hearts of anyone in the island, afterall you'd be much more prone to do cautious/impulsive/stupid things if you though everything was magical than; someone is trying to kill us, hey why don't we all get some weapons and hunt that bastard down?

2. Kinzo wouldn't tell them, and it'd be suspicious and hard to get the gold. If everyone but the murderer and Kinzo was missing, who'd you expect? The other family members have no idea where the gold is.

3. The murderer just likes gold, but using Beatrice as a guise inorder to freak/mindfuck/screw with everyone so that they don't do things in a rash and logical manor which would spell gg for the murderer.

Nadeor

2008-08-07, 23:42

Well that could be

But it is still really stupid to kill everyone of them
especially since then who can find the gold?

Ithekro

2008-08-08, 00:48

Odd theory:
What if someone is trying to make it so no one can get the gold?

Thinking in terms of economy, adding that much gold to the world stocks would lower the price of gold right? Thus if the gold remains hidden, the value would increase over time. Later, assuming the killer is alive still, they could use the gold (their own or if found the families gold) to be even richer than they could at that time.

Anyone have any idea what the gold market was like in 1986?

d-one

2008-08-08, 01:01

ah finally finish the first 2 ep of umineko and I must say it was awesome and really confusing especially ep 2 which looks like ryukishi 07 try to mindfuck us to believe of the existence of the witch :heh:

for the reason why the killer kill them all, maybe the killer ALREADY found the whereabouts of the Gold. Maybe he try to eliminate everyone who have connection to Rokkenjima so he can get all the gold for himself :rolleyes:

Nadeor

2008-08-08, 06:33

For Ep2 Beatrice definitely twisted the truth
That's all I can say for sure now

Asashio123

2008-08-08, 20:18

Of course, there's always a chance that the killer wasn't after the gold after all. I think that the killer is probably connected to Kinzo or Beatrice in some way (maybe he/she is another member of one of the Ushiromiya branch-families).

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure that the Beatrice in the dress, and the Beatrice in the mini-skirt are different in some way.

Maybe Beatrice I and Beatrice II are twins, like Mion and Shion. Ohohohoh~

Nadeor

2008-08-08, 22:34

And Ryukishi07 is going to mindfuck all of us by using the sonozaki theory...

Rena Ryuuguu

2008-08-14, 23:25

Nadeor

2008-08-14, 23:32

Guys! Bad news!

It seems like our Witches had encountered someone even they can't deal with
(No it's not Captain Jack)...
Maebara Keiichi, the Pervert of Hinamizawa
Invaded Rokkenjima!(JK)

Who exactly is this person!? and anyone mind translate?

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w273/NNN1812/EP3-1.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w273/NNN1812/EP3-2.jpg

Rias

2008-08-14, 23:45

Belial is fake. Welcome to the days before Comiket. You can tell by the lines and drawing style that it's not by Ryukishi07.

Nadeor

2008-08-14, 23:51

It's Fake!? OMG yes!!!!!!!
I want EP3 NAO!!!!! XD

Sterling01

2008-08-15, 00:40

Belial is fake. Welcome to the days before Comiket. You can tell by the lines and drawing style that it's not by Ryukishi07.
Where did that pic come from anyway?

Ithekro

2008-08-15, 00:51

Aww. And Beatice would have had so much fun with K1.

Rias

2008-08-15, 02:21

Where did that pic come from anyway?

I don't know where's it's originated from, but I've seen it on the 2ch Umineko thread like 2-3 days ago. It created quite a stir at first, but after some debunking, it's just reposted lately as a joke.

Rias

2008-08-16, 04:34

theacefrehley

2008-08-16, 05:16

Well those who got it from C74, one way or the other, should be able to enjoy their games now...the game is also on sale at stores tomorrow.

After playing for the first little bit...all I can say is...what a speedy development :heh:
more thoughts after I finish...

I guess I'll have to stay away from this thread for a month :heh::heh: (reading slow sucks)

Sterling01

2008-08-16, 08:40

Well those who got it from C74, one way or the other, should be able to enjoy their games now...the game is also on sale at stores tomorrow.

After playing for the first little bit...all I can say is...what a speedy development :heh:
more thoughts after I finish...
Well I got Episode 3 along with Magical Battle Arena, Subterranean Animism, and Battle Moon Wars Part 4.
You get to "Johnny Deep" yet?

Enerccio

2008-08-17, 08:14

EP3 MUSIC KICKS ASS!
miragecoordinator.ogg is definitely best!
And I think it's ZTS again.
HELL YEAH!

Sterling01

2008-08-17, 09:36

After rereading the prologue
Rika punishment is nothing compared to how Beato and the Skates treat Battler.

Keriaku

2008-08-17, 10:51

Not to be annoying, but just wondering if anybody was planning some 'rough translations' for Ep. 3 like were done for the previous two episodes?

theacefrehley

2008-08-17, 11:18

Not to be annoying, but just wondering if anybody was planning some 'rough translations' for Ep. 3 like were done for the previous two episodes?

When I finish reading it, I'll do it (as I doubt anyone will volunteer for this)
But, since I'm very slow reading+lack of time...:uhoh: you'd better come back next month:(

Sterling01

2008-08-17, 11:58

Shotgun Rudolf is balls to the walls awesome... Also Episode 3 is really really long
Also, WTF bunny girls? And I never knew Beatrice could feel sad

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-17, 12:16

It seems like everyone taking turns holding the gun XD

d-one

2008-08-17, 12:21

so now the old man finally take the stage after 2 times get killed fast? :cool:

hmm... who died at the first night then? :)

Coruja

2008-08-17, 12:32

When I finish reading it, I'll do it (as I doubt anyone will volunteer for this)
But, since I'm very slow reading+lack of time...:uhoh: you'd better come back next month:(
Thank you!!!!! And please, take your time!

Sterling01

2008-08-17, 12:41

so now the old man finally take the stage after 2 times get killed fast? :cool:

hmm... who died at the first night then? :)
The people who died the first night were
Kannon
Shannon
Kinzo
Gohda
Genji
and Kumasawa in a sense
Also Battler's powers are awakening

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-17, 12:44

What will the family do without the servants and their family head?

Sterling01

2008-08-17, 12:46

What will the family do without the servants and their family head?
Well so far most of the story is taking place in the witches' realm

d-one

2008-08-17, 12:48

th... that's the most unexpected turn :twitch:

now I want to play it really much:bash:

Sterling01

2008-08-17, 15:29

Here are Episode 3's Chapter title translations
Chapter 1: Little Girl Era
Chapter 2
Chapter 3 The Witch's Written Challenge
Chapter 4 The Possibility of 19 People
Chapter 5
Chapter 6 The Start of the Ritual
Chapter 7 Madame Beatrice
Chapter 8 Wagaria (This is a name of a new Witch though I'm not sure what the romanzation would be)
Chapter 9 Skirmish
Chapter 10 The Key to the Golden Village
Chapter 11 Coronation
Chapter 12 New Witch
Chapter 13 Advance Notice of Sacrifice
Chapter 14 The Whole Struggle
Chapter 15 The Definition of Witch
Chapter 16 The Reality of Witchcraft
Chapter 17 Witch Royal Court
Chapter 18 Witch Illusions

Sterling01

2008-08-17, 17:18

So I finished episode 3...
Madame Beatrice/Eva was pretty evil
That plot twist at the end was just cruel for Battler... but at least he has his sister on his side
Beatrice was just evil
Ange is just moe~~
Those spiderwebs were a nice touch
Though I still say wtf to the bunnygirls
And I hold my thoughts on the BeatoXBattler "moments"
Melting Away, Prison and Happiness of Marionette were my favorites of the new BGMs

Klashikari

2008-08-17, 20:14

I barely started a bit the banquet, and the pace is really great (albeit, the siblings discussion was extremely long).
I must say that Lonowe (spelling?), at this point is difficult to gauge as he seems more like Battler's ally.

For the moment, TONCRAP of plot twists (Red Text fest), it is really awesome. (I think I'm in chapter 5)

Nabiki Asakura

2008-08-17, 20:18

Ankoku-chan

2008-08-17, 20:40

So, what does the cover of BotGW look like?

momobunny

2008-08-17, 21:01

d-one

2008-08-17, 21:11

and tell us about the new chara too :D

tobiast88

2008-08-17, 21:15

Not Lonowe - Ronoue. Like Genji's surname, which opens many doors...

Sterling01

2008-08-17, 21:29

I must say that Lonowe (spelling?), at this point is difficult to gauge as he seems more like Battler's ally.

Ronoue gets very awesome during Battler and Beato's fight with Madame Beatrice
Also anyone know the spelling for ワルギリア?

Rias

2008-08-17, 21:51

It's Ronove (or Roneve, Ronové, Ronwe)...if you want to go with the name that is derivied from the lesser key of Solomon. Of course, it does sound like Genji, and Ronove also serves Beatrice...

Just got to part where they talk about Beatrice + first red texts...seems that Ronove is helping Battler, but then he should be on Beatrice's side, no...?

Havn't got to ワルギリア part yet...unless that's the person that shows up like right in the beginning...

tobiast88

2008-08-17, 21:53

ワルギリア　might be Valkyrie...?

Rias

2008-08-17, 21:54

ワルギリア　might be Valkyrie...?

I thought so too...it does sound like "Valkyria", but isn't the correct way is ヴァルキュリア?

d-one

2008-08-17, 21:55

Also anyone know the spelling for ワルギリア?

Warugiria? dunno how to spell it :twitch: (wait, why it reminds me of Wallachia from Melty Blood? :heh:)

Sterling01

2008-08-17, 22:08

I thought so too...it does sound like "Valkyria", but isn't the correct way is ヴァルキュリア?
Yeah that's the correct way for Valkyrie...

tobiast88

2008-08-17, 22:15

Actually, the japanese word for valkyrie is derived fom the german, so it's ワルキューレ if I'm not mistaken.

Rias

2008-08-17, 22:25

Yeah, you are right. The japanese word is indeed ワルキューレ...which is same as ヴァルキュリア、ヴァルキュリャ、ヴァルキューレ、ヴァルキアー、ヴァルキリー, depending if you are using the german or english way...

but it still doesn't cover the ギリア part of ワルギリア...or is it just like Beatrice's name...

Sterling01

2008-08-17, 22:28

Actually, the japanese word for valkyrie is derived fom the german, so it's ワルキューレ if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah you're right that's another way to say it
Also for people who want to know about the new characters I did a quick write up.
Siesta 45 & Siesta 410: These things are the weirdest characters to come from the When they Cry Series. They were fucking annoying and Powerful. I was happy when Battler "killed" them.
Ronove: He's as awesome as the guy he was based on :heh:
Ange Beatrice/Ushiromiya Ange: She just plain moe~ and I suspect she has a brother complex
Eva Beatrice: The person I've been calling Madame Beatrice... she goes insane at the end

momobunny

2008-08-18, 00:08

Thanks!

So you already answered who the first twilight victims were, but may I ask who died on the rest of the twilights this time?

Sterling01

2008-08-18, 00:54

Thanks!

So you already answered who the first twilight victims were, but may I ask who died on the rest of the twilights this time?
I'm just going in the order that they were killed as I'm not sure about the specific Twilights and it gets kinda convoluted at the end
Second Twilight
Rosa & Maria
Third Twilight
Rudolf, Hideyoshi & Kyrie
Forth Twilight
Krass & Natsuhi
Fifth Twilight
George
Sixth Twilight
Nanjo & Jessica
He was Killed by Eva

d-one

2008-08-18, 00:56

Ange Beatrice/Ushiromiya Ange: She just plain moe~ and I suspect she has a brother complex
Eva Beatrice: The person I've been calling Madame Beatrice... she goes insane at the end

What do you mean by those 2 chara? did Ange and Eva becoming Beatrice? :twitch:

Sterling01

2008-08-18, 01:06

What do you mean by those 2 chara? did Ange and Eva becoming Beatrice? :twitch:
No they didn't become Beatrice

Thisguy

2008-08-18, 04:36

Finished it, and I must say that Beato was so moe while it lasted :heh:
Well, dunno, the way facial expressions were used around "last" scenes may be implying that there were some truth behind her pretence, especially with what scary 34 said in Tea Party.

I got a feeling that we're already reaching the bottom of Beatrice as character, and there're (most likely) more than 4 episodes to go, including Answer arcs.
That's rather fast if she will remain as the final villain of series, if you ask me... maybe 34 or someone else's gonna take over the role of last boss?

Nadeor

2008-08-18, 04:40

Gee Sterling! No Spoilers please >.<
Can't Resist...I'm only human T.T

Asashio123

2008-08-18, 09:33

I suppose it's just us non-Japenese speakers pestering everyone for answers. Thanks for answering them, by the way. :)

Otherwise, how are the Battler/Kyrie interactions going? Or is Battler unable to interact with his stepmother, despite her being alive for once? (That's not a question that requires a spoilerific answer, is it?)

Sterling01

2008-08-18, 10:24

Finished it, and I must say that Beato was so moe while it lasted :heh:
Well, dunno, the way facial expressions were used around "last" scenes may be implying that there were some truth behind her pretence, especially with what scary 34 said in Tea Party.

Yeah it seemed to imply something... maybe Beato will be like how Takano was with Tommy. Also Beato did act that way about him when Battler wasn't around.

Klashikari

2008-08-18, 20:10

I'm just done with Episode 3, and I can say that Ryukishi has the title of the most crazy author being the MOST unpredictable ever.
Episode 2 was full of "twists", but these are ridiculous compared to the sheer amount in episode 3, in a extremely good way.

I can't say much aside that the plot is exactly like in higurashi: the first 2 episodes give the premises, then the third one (Tatarigoroshi/Banquet of the Golden Witch) is just a huge nuke on the face.

-Beato VS Walgiria: holy sh... the battle was epic despite the limitations of the VN format. (あかいくつ偽 BGM was godly there)
-Battler going completely berserk against beato then Eva Beatrice
-Kanon VS Lucifer: who can stop him? Just like battler, kanon keeps going GAR over the chapters :heh:

Just like Battler, I have been totally deceived by Beato. I was encouraging and admiring her with the whole deal against Eva Beatrice (which deserve to be endlessly stuck a firewood place in witch hunt era). But as soon as she reveals her guise and Walgiria, I was really in "HOLY SHIT NO", as much as when Eva Beatrice killed George when he was with shannon.

Ange is certainly an interesting addition in the brawl though I wonder what she can do during the "tea parties", though Bernkastel claims her help is necessary. Knowing her (for Akasaka in Higurashi), the choice is certainly not random.

As for the plot itself, I cannot give head or tail for the whole deal... I mean, Eva Beatrice's red text were ALMIGHTY to the point it virtually looks impossible to resolve. Hell, I don't understand the whole deal with "true" eva (her facial expression when she killed Battler creeped me the hell of me)... One survivor this time, which is beyond usual (along with a lot of irregular, such like the sigil etc).

And... what the hell was that scary creepy lambda in the end? I didn't get everything, but she certainly got the upper hand against Beato, and her faces weren't exactly expected *shudders*

My only complain would be some "dragged" moments (such like the adults discussion in early chapter), and the fact "in" tea parties are much more important than the ongoing plot itself.

But this episode just blows away the first 2, it was absolutely awesome. (more thoughts to come)

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-18, 20:23

Ugh, this is hurting me lol, if only the translations would come faster XD

Sterling01

2008-08-18, 20:32

Oh yeah Klash I found that if you lighten the "true" eva sprite she has the same type of eyes that the Higurashi characters get

Nadeor

2008-08-18, 22:22

Great, while you guys got all the EP3 in details
We can only rely on your translations for help...Anyways
It seems like more witches decided to join the battle...or is it?
I saw a new witch in someone's fanart, and pretty common in a lot's with no emotions
Great, guess Ryukishi thinks Stakes are not enough for Rokkenjima =_=

Sterling01

2008-08-18, 22:47

Great, guess Ryukishi thinks Stakes are not enough for Rokkenjima =_=
Yeah, he had to add the Siestas, Ronove and Walgiria

Nadeor

2008-08-18, 23:10

What's with the names now O_O
Is he going the Nasu Kinoko style of retardation English XD?
still, looking forward
Once Battler's powers are fully awakened, it's pwning shit time for the witches XD

Ithekro

2008-08-18, 23:11

Make you wander what is going on doesn't it?

Sterling01

2008-08-18, 23:15

Once Battler's powers are fully awakened, it's pwning shit time for the witches XD
Well Battler's dad was able to was able to hold his own against a Stake

kj1980

2008-08-18, 23:34

New characters + new music = pure win for EP3.

chronotrig

2008-08-18, 23:35

Got to say it, I love this game more than any of Ryuukishi's previous ones. There are a lot of 'holes'(in a good way), things that the characters in the game don't realize that might be hints or things to mislead the readers. Honestly, I wondered from the beginning of umineko how ryuukishi could possibly continue to trick his readers after they learned not to trust anything he wrote in higurashi, but this game had a half dozen times where the plot shifted in completely unpredictable ways, and most of those I didn't see coming.

This game has so much in common with Tatarigoroshi. You have the 'lone survivor', a crazy long plot, and a completely new way to look at the series.
...and maybe the true culprit?

I have to admit, until the last chapter, I couldn't believe this was a question arc. All the loose ends started to get tied up even before the last 2 chapters(including that one that was 2-3 times longer than any in an umineko game so far).

Also, unlike umi 2, where we could really only pay attention to the relatively few differences from umi 1, we can finally start making some serious guesses about the nature of this series. In 'When they cry', anything that happens once means almost nothing, and anything that happens twice is a coincidence. Only the things that stay common for more than that are important.

But basically, he throws so much at us that making a single guess is impossible. This isn't a game where you figure out the right answer, this is a game where you find 'all the possible right answers'. And then try to remove possibilities and add new ones as soon as possible, to try and guess what could happen before it does.
Even if guessing the whole truth is impossible, there's plenty of information to guess part of the truth.

...And then, just to mess with us, he puts that part in the last chapter which throws doubt on everything else.:twitch:

kj1980

2008-08-19, 00:01

Well, I guess I'll my two cents as you guys call it.

So far, EP3 has been the best episode so far of Umineko - just when you think you got it, they thrown everything back at you which binds you in a spider web; a metaphor used widely in EP3. And being that this EP3 was more or less a "fair game" compared to EP2, many vital clues were dropped by Beato, Eva Beatrice and Ronove. More of the surprising clues given was that Beatrice did indeed exist in human form in the 1960s at Rokkenjima. And now we are introduced to the next step from Probatio diabolica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probatio_diabolica), the Hempel's Ravens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_paradox).

And just about when you thought you were willing to accept everything that was thrown at you, Beato pops a yandere on you and another twist occurs where Ange comes into the stage!!

Lastly, the tea party exchange between Lamdadelta and Beatrice is something that flips everything that we thought we knew about the witches upside down.

Oh and kudos to Ryu-chan for bringing in three very moe characters into the arena: the two Siestas (bunny ears) and Ange (absolute territory FTW)!

Sterling01

2008-08-19, 00:08

And just about when you thought you were willing to accept everything that was thrown at you, Beato pops a yandere on you and another twist occurs where Ange comes into the stage!!
I don't think Yandere would be the right term
Oh and kudos to Ryu-chan for bringing in three very moe characters into the arena: the two Siestas (bunny ears) and Ange (absolute territory FTW)!
While Ange is very very moe.... I hate the Siestas

kj1980

2008-08-19, 00:28

I don't think Yandere would be the right term

While Ange is very very moe.... I hate the Siestas

Trust me, yandere is a perfect term for EP3 Beato.

Sterling01

2008-08-19, 00:32

I would think the yandere would be Eva Beatrice and Beato would be tsundere

kj1980

2008-08-19, 00:34

I would think the yandere would be Eva Beatrice and Beato would be tsundere

Nah, to the extent that Beato did to bring back Battler on to the game table, that's more of a yandere than tsun.

Sterling01

2008-08-19, 00:43

It's mentioned in Genji's Ep 2 profile that he was made with the help of a advanced level demon. Since Ronove has a similar name to Genji's could he be the one who helped Kinzo create Genji

Nadeor

2008-08-19, 02:46

Alright you two...Cough Cough?
Remember our Spoiler function O_O?
We can discuss this all we want later...when you guys release it =.=

Apathy

2008-08-19, 04:42

Episode Three definitely sounds like the most interesting of the lot so far...

Although, I am getting very confused about the whole 'Eva-Beatrice' thing. Not to mention the roles of the new characters (Ronove, the Siestas... if they have a role, and Walgiria).

Erm... does anyone have any light to shed on this? (Sorry, I seem to have joined the many who fall under the category of 'non-game owners/non-Japanese speakers who just ask questions'... ehe).

Klashikari

2008-08-19, 05:33

Let's see... these are only my interpretations because I obviously didn't catch everything:

Eva-Beatrice: in Episode 3, Eva revealed that her past was in huge turmoil because of the inheritance issue with Krauss.
There isn't much hint if it is a split persona or whatnot, but there is a "witch" within Eva, and both are "Ushiromiya Eva", though the Rena like one with the seifuku pretends that she has magic and as long as Eva believes in it, the magic will goes on.
After a little while, Eva was able to find the Gold. She was really in ecstasy, but in the shadows, the witch didn't want to share the gold with any of the other siblings, and Beato pays her a visit. Since she resolved the riddle, she gets the right to take the place of the head of the Ushiromiya family, and becomes the new "Golden Witch, Beatrice". Hence she became Eva-Beatrice.

Beato is guiding her "apprentice" a bit, but it is quickly revealed that Eva-Beatrice is as psycho or even more than beato and goes on a rampage, to much Eva's dismay.

Ronove: he is serving beatrice because of a contract, though he seems to share a special bound with Beatrice. Ronove is actually difficult to gauge as he seems in favor for Battler as well.
He is acting as Beato's proxy times to times and seems to enjoys the antics between beato and Battler.
Once Witch Eva became the new Beatrice, Ronove the serves her, but still stay on good terms with Battler and Beato.

Siestas: these are the bunny girls that Eva-Beatrice summoned when the sisters of purgatory failed in their mission to eliminate some characters. These have an absolute weapon that is activated once the target's whereabouts and identity are confirmed (this can be done from AFAR). The weapon is a golden "snake" that will chase the prey wherever it is without fail, piercing their vital point. Witches cannot avoid this either. This weapon can also be used as a way to fish out the corpses and retrieve them for the siesta.

Walgiria: Beato's mentor. Walgiria is the "previous beatrice, the endless witch". She is extremely composed and gentle, who has a very different mindset than Beato: the endless magic isn't supposed to be used for such destruction etc.
She will assist Battler in the "in game tea parties" against Beato then Eva-beatrice, but in the end there is some plot twist...

It is kinda digest, and I don't think I put all the details, but heh.

Thisguy

2008-08-19, 06:40

Nah, to the extent that Beato did to bring back Battler on to the game table, that's more of a yandere than tsun.I'd disagree, since Beato in that state is not showing sign of "yan", only determined to do her share of "task" even if it risks her life.
If anyone is to be called a yandere, 34 in ??? should.

Apathy

2008-08-19, 08:00

It is kinda digest, and I don't think I put all the details, but heh.

Actually, that was very helpful~ It managed to explain quite a bit of what I was confused about.

So, 'Eva' (or the witch-part of Eva, Eva-Beatrice) became the new 'golden witch'? In that case, perhaps Beatrice was formerly in her position before. =/

Walgiria sounds... interesting. I wonder what her motives are/what she's doing around, then. Was she the former 'Golden Witch' as well, then...?

... The Siestas sound and look scary.

... Ah, more questions (somewhat). ._. Sorry.

In any case, thanks for your help~

Klashikari

2008-08-19, 08:15

Some added details

Actually, "The Golden Witch, Beatrice" is the title of the "endless witch", it isn't the proper name of the character we know (which is officially now "beato").

Walgiria was the "Beatrice" before beato. Then the third "Endless Witch/Golden Witch, Beatrice" is "witch Eva", hence named by the game "Eva-Beatrice".

The condition to pass the title is a bit unclear between Walgiria and Beato, but Beato gives the title to the person who is able to figure out her riddle.
There isn't any indication if Walgiria did the same, with a riddle, but considering what she says, when they fight each other, it seems Walgiria gave her title to Beato willingly, like Master and Apprentice.

Yes, the weapon the Siestas' use is scary, but ironically enough, these two are very different from the Sisters of Purgatory in terms of actions etc (they aren't curel or so, but they follow their master's orders, though they are kinda like jokes characters considering their behaviour).

d-one

2008-08-19, 08:23

um sorry but I need to know one thing

I have seen 2 witch picture from the game (not including Ange of course), but which one is Walgiria? Is she the one in the third game painting? or Is she the silver haired lady?

Klashikari

2008-08-19, 08:26

^

Walgiria is the first "Beatrice" in the branch, the silver haired one.

The third painting is Eva-Beatrice

Apathy

2008-08-19, 08:42

Thanks very much for the information, again. (It really is quite useful to know what's going on... I'm afraid I can be a bit of a spoiler-lover. ._.).

I guess if you wanted to find out the ultimate origin of the 'endless witch', then you'd need to look at Walgiria... although, she seems to help out Battler at one point? Come to think, even Beatrice seems to be going against Eva-Beatrice... seems she reverts at the end, though. That probably means Eva's the survivor in this scenario?

As for the Siestas... for some reason, I think it's the bunny ears/appearance that I find scary about them. And their attack.

... Also, Ange. Why does she show up at this point in the series? (Come to think, what does she do, if anything?).

Sorry, again.

Klashikari

2008-08-19, 08:59

Looks like I will have to do a summary at this rate :heh:
Well, let's see if I can explain a bit in further detail:

Until I understand her character TIPS, I'm unable to explain much about Walgiria. That said, to explain further the point:
Walgiria was in Rokkenjima as Beato was doing ill stuff with the "endless magic", and even says that her only regret was "passing the beatrice title" to her apprentice.
After a very rough and epic battle, Beato lost, but the latter actually made a trap and Walgiria thus "died" (rather removed from the chessboard).

As result, she is in the "in tea party" and assists Battler despites he cannot admits witches and such. She then explains few things, like the Schrödinger's cat, that permits Battler to expand his thoughts and methods to counter Beato.

After the usual "first 6 sacrifices", few events happen. Eva managed to find the gold, but later her witch self became "The Gold Witch Beatrice" and resumed the rampage of the ressurrection ceremony. At this point, Battler and Beato had a very heated argument, and with a special approach (I won't spoil that though), Battler managed to own completely Beato.

Beato tried to understand what Battler meant by that, but Battler refuses to, and forces her to think about herself and if needed, consulting Walgiria and Ronove. After few psychotic events with Eva-Beatrice, Beato understands some things and begin to act by herself, even if she doesn't have all her powers anymore and her actions are hindering Eva-Beatrice.

After lots of trouble, Eva-Beatrice is finally "invited" in the Tea Party, where she has to fight against Battler, who cannot allow her to taint "beato's name". From there, epic battler of wits, but in the end Eva-Beatrice is the winner, with almighty Red Text, which made Battler surrender completely.

However, Beato then used a method which completely took everyone offguard, and the matter is settled down, at the expense of Beato's existence (Eva-Beatrice vanishes as well).
In the plot, things are "settled", though "plot" Battler is murdered by Eva (who went utterly broken due to George mysterious death). Nanjo is killed by a unknown factor (but claimed to be a murder), while Jessica is dead mysteriously like in ep1 (unfortunately, I don't get her EXECUTE TIPS text). The only survivor is Ushiromiya Eva, confirmed 12 years later. Among Kinzo's relatives, only Eva and Ange (who couldn't come due of her sickness) are alive.

After a while, both beato and Battler were able to reach the Golden Land.
Battler is relieved and such, and unlike before, he is about to sign the golden land registry. This is where Beato reverts to her real self and starts to force Battler in signing "Ushiromiya Battler. I admits witches exist".

Then, Ange intervenes and allows Battler to regains his senses, though he is badly hurt that Beato toyed with his feelings (as he was utterly deceived).

As for Ange, it seems she is "Ange-Beatrice" since Eva is about to die, so the latter gives all the fortune to her (not really in a generous way, but rather as revenge). As result, Ange becomes the fourth Beatrice (if we speculate there isn't anyone before Walgiria), Ange-Beatrice.
Ange wanted to know the truth, but Eva is as broken as Keiichi in tatarigoroshi. As result, Ange ponders about it, and wish to see her beloved parents and brother. This is where Bernkastel appears and asks her help though there isn't any guarantee that she can "bring back her family". She can avenge them, but making them alive would be a probability close to 0.
Ange is actually Bernkastel "Knight" Piece (IIRC), and she will assist Battler in the tea parties, though there isn't any explanation why Bernkastel chosed her, nor her possible powers and such.

Apathy

2008-08-19, 09:40

Ah~ That was very helpful (as well). Again, thanks for all your hard work.

... Huh, this episode really did bring a whole lot of new things to light; although it revealed a lot, there's also a lot of new things to consider. I hope we get a good answer arc for this one...

It's very interesting, though, speculation and all, so I'm glad I know vaguely how things go now.

... Incidentally, does 34 appear all? Considering it's mostly 'in the witches' world', I'd be kind of surprised if she didn't.

Sterling01

2008-08-19, 09:48

After a while, both beato and Battler were able to reach the Golden Land.
Battler is relieved and such, and unlike before, he is about to sign the golden land registry. This is where Beato reverts to her real self and starts to force Battler in signing "Ushiromiya Battler. I admits witches exist".

Also during this part, some of Beato's actions are weird ie the whole face change bit.... I don't think that really was her "real self"

Klashikari

2008-08-19, 09:58

... Incidentally, does 34 appear all? Considering it's mostly 'in the witches' world', I'd be kind of surprised if she didn't.
Just like what I said in my first reactions

Yes, Lamba appears. And honestly, she is freaky scary. It seems that she might be the "true boss" considering how she is really imposing herself to the point that Beato didn't even try to reply or so (with some troubled face etc).

I didn't understand much, but Lambda is hardly a passive actor here.
Also during this part, some of Beato's actions are weird ie the whole face change bit.... I don't think that really was her "real self"
Yes indeed, I have my doubts, especially...
the scene with Lambda. And considering her past with Kinzo, Beato's character might be deceiving even in her evil stance.

Sterling01

2008-08-19, 10:01

Just like what I said in my first reactions

Yes, Lamba appears. And honestly, she is freaky scary. It seems that she might be the "true boss" considering how she is really imposing herself to the point that Beato didn't even try to reply or so (with some troubled face etc).

I didn't understand much, but Lambda is hardly a passive actor here.
Didn't Lamba also appear when they were crowning Eva the new Beatrice

Kets

2008-08-19, 12:23

Just wondering, but which Stakes/Siestas killed which person?

Klashikari

2008-08-19, 12:41

Just wondering, but which Stakes/Siestas killed which person?
Let's see:

Stakes and their targets

Asmodeus : Rudolf
Beelzebub: Hideyoshi
Mammon: Kyrie
Lucifer: Krauss
Satan: Natsuhi

No, there isn't any mention of Leviathan and Belphegor. (for obvious reasons)

Special note: note that NONE of the victim were shown killed by any stakes of purgatory. Most if not all were killed by both Siestas 410 and 45, then Eva-Beatrice gouged them with the stakes (lucifer being extremely reluctant to that).

Kets

2008-08-19, 12:45

Thanks! But who did Beezelbub kill?

Klashikari

2008-08-19, 12:49

Oops, I forgot one stake and I made a mistake. please check the spoiler again, I made a correction.

Kets

2008-08-19, 13:10

Thanks again! Although what do you mean by obvious reasons?

Klashikari

2008-08-19, 13:29

Thanks again! Although what do you mean by obvious reasons?

Eva-Beatrice sent Belphegor and Leviathan to kill Rudolf and Kyrie, but the couple managed to defeat and kill them, in a classy way.

Sterling01

2008-08-19, 15:03

Eva-Beatrice sent Belphegor and Leviathan to kill Rudolf and Kyrie, but the couple managed to defeat and kill them, in a classy way.
Yeah I'm still wondering how they were able to do that

Asashio123

2008-08-19, 15:10

Huh... I never knew that Eva could have that in her.

I suppose Maria is just a "fake" character, like Rena. The story isn't about her after all.

Now, does all this lead up to another epic Bern+34 battle? Time to wait and see.

Thanks for summarizing the episode, Klashikari. :)

Sterling01

2008-08-19, 15:17

Now, does all this lead up to another epic Bern+34 battle? Time to wait and see.

Bern and 34 are still considered "spectators"
What this is leading up to is Battler&Ange VS Beato&Wagaria with Ronove on the sidelines

Nabiki Asakura

2008-08-19, 18:58

I'M FINALLY PLAYING IT! OH, BEATRICE-SAMA!

...Geez, I can understand nothing, when people will start to translate the third game? But, after all, just see Beatrice's face and listen to this dark music is good for now

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-19, 20:55

I wonder, who is the Beatrice that Kinzo knows and loves? From ep2 he seems familiar with Beato, but evidence supports that it is Wagaria whom would be a more realistic possibility.

Any pics of Wagaria?

Apathy

2008-08-19, 21:16

So, Walgiria is actually against Battler and Ange...?

As for Walgiria:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q42/unasuvas/umineco_uljp00069.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q42/unasuvas/viploaderf134948.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/1383/hauuasaqj9.jpg

Erm, I think these were from 2chan (which then got posted to LJ)... apart from the last one?

Nadeor

2008-08-19, 23:18

The guys at the chinese forums are acting up as well
They say that they can finish the first translation by late November, but I doubt that

Leviathan and Belphegor got killed!?
But they can come back to life right?

It seems like that Beatrice ain't as much of a player as 34 in Hinamizawa
After all Ever since EP2 she encountered troubles XD, Ownt by Battler at the first round and started to play cheap ever since XD

P.S. I hate the Siestas! Stakes FTW!~ S.o.P. FTW!!!

Jaymer

2008-08-20, 01:17

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-20, 09:11

Yea, she's freaking scary XD.

I love it how Battler just goes WTF in that moment.

Also, what's the deal with this Dark Battler?

Klashikari

2008-08-20, 09:15

Yeah I'm still wondering how they were able to do that
Especially Kyrie... the way it was depicted was overkill :heh:

Also, what's the deal with this Dark Battler?
There isn't anything like "dark battler". I dunno what you are talking about.

Battler became just extremely calm, cold and "unchallenging" against Beato once Eva-Beatrice was doing her rampage as he was fed up with Beato's cruelty to the point he couldn't stand it.
While he can "somehow understand" the murders as it is a necessity for Beato for the resurrection ceremony, he cannot condone the cruelty and the enjoyement Beato displayed until now, and go so cold that Beato was upset.

He then goes hell serious against Eva-Beatrice, but that's all. There isn't any "dark" battler

Sterling01

2008-08-20, 09:31

Also, what's the deal with this Dark Battler?
It's just a fan name

Asashio123

2008-08-20, 09:44

Also, what's the deal with this Dark Battler?

Huh... I'm sure it's come to be the name describing Meta-Battler, or the Battler that exists in the Witches's realm. And like Sterling said, it's a fan-name.

But I have another question/weird theory. If finding the gold makes you Beatrice, then did Rosa turn into Rosa-Beatrice at the end of Ep.2? Or was that gold not Beatrice's gold? Hmm... I don't know.

Klashikari

2008-08-20, 10:04

But I have another question/weird theory. If finding the gold makes you Beatrice, then did Rosa turn into Rosa-Beatrice at the end of Ep.2? Or was that gold not Beatrice's gold? Hmm... I don't know.
That wasn't Beatrice's gold. The culprit(s) put some ingots at the sanctuary so that people WILL have to believe in the "legend of the gold", starting to find the gold stash before getting slaughtered by "the witch".
It is pretty much like Krauss' ingot. Just a proof, nothing like the real amount of gold.

Kets

2008-08-20, 13:41

I have another question. Where did Eva find the gold?

chronotrig

2008-08-20, 14:31

In the subway:heh:

Sterling01

2008-08-20, 14:43

Here's a question if a guy finds the gold... is he gender swapped?

Klashikari

2008-08-20, 14:44

You can expect the guy being as cuucko as Kinzo, being a wizard or something...
Until beato goes very wrong indeed :heh:

Rias

2008-08-20, 17:55

Finally finished reading...I see many people have already finished reading a long time ago. Not in the deducing mood yet, so here are my thoughts about this story:

-More history, this time about the adults: mainly Eva and Krauss' relationship and her desire to succeed the family (or make George to)...which became the backbone of Ep3.
-Who would've thought that some people were right about Kumazawa all along..."Kuma->Bear theory":heh:
-Kids groups sure stayed silent for a long while...the talks between the adults were getting a bit boring at times, but was definitely better Eva found the gold.
-As expected, supernatural events in 1 and 2 are just in the witches' claims...with that out in the open, the story becomes really intresting.
-Kyrie + Rudolf vs stakes scene was great...but it's also suprising to learn more about Asumu that way...
-Good to see Battler finally figured out how to approach the game...intresting to see what "powers" the human side gets (recreating any situation, or perhaps that's only possible beucase of Walugire), and what the witches can do (Red text, witness summoning)
-I saw the whole "Sun and Wind tactics" a mile away when Walugira first mentioned it and as Beato loses her composure more and more as Eva-Beatrice took over...but I still couldn't help but to sweat a bit from my eyes during the Beatrice+Kanon scene.
-Enje showing up was awesome...I knew it was bad news when Battler started to acknowlege the witches...

Deductions:
-Hmm...all signs do points towards Eva as the culprit...but what of the initial 6? Also Nanjou's death is still the biggest mystery. It does seem that it might've been the fact that finding the gold pushed Eva into paranoia, but I wonder if there's anything more to that...
-Massive red text at the end was definitely too much for me to deduce for now...there doesn't seem to be any loopholes, unless it's playing on the words again (from the initial 6 suicide red-text trick)...a thing I did notice was that the red text of "all 15 people were dead" happened AFTER Nanjou was dead...
-There is something weird about passing down the title. Assuming anyone who can solve the riddle, like Eva did, would get the name "Beatrice", why wouldn't Ginzo do it himself? Afterall, he's the one who knows where the gold is. Rather, he's more intrested in completing the ritual (which might hint that it is the 'mystery' solution to the first 6. Ginzo goes on a rampage, but dies of old age), than becoming "beatrice" so that he can meet beatrice.

-Santa Claus is a witch too!? :heh: Berkerstal sure is mean to him...
-LD is still playing Higurashi? :heh: And she doesn't know the real culprit's idenity!? :heh:
-Yandere LD...still can't get over the fact that she lost?
-Last time we had Worldenddominator, this time we have miragecoordinator. I'm starting to really like zts' music.

-With Jessica "missing", the only two left in the end is Eva and Enju...
-As expected that Eva's life was in shambles even tho she accquired all the gold. After all, that's what Rosa warned Eva when she wanted to hide the fact that she found the gold. No family, no trust in people, always living in paranoia...even the names of Hideyoshi and George is ruined by that.
-Enje = Akasaka!? However, it seems kinda early for her to turn the table completely around...also, it seems that she will be constrained with the fact that she is 6 years old in 1986, just like Rika was...

-Rudolf~Natsuhi isn't "offered to the new witch"...
-Siesta Guard/Golden Bow...intresting stuff...I wonder if they will appear again, or different ones will show up next time.

It has been an awesome episode. So until next time, "see you again, have a nice day."

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-20, 23:22

Looking through the many translation.

Really, I just like Hideyoshi, out of the parents he just seems the be the most "mature" of them all, followed by Rudolf and Kyrie.

Enju has a brother complex what is this :rolleyes: interesting no?

Nadeor

2008-08-21, 00:06

I would say if I don't know Ryukishi-sensei better, I'd say he had given up on Umineko...
Due to the fact that EP3 sounds more screwed up than ever...
With the Stakes being NEET now and Some other random creeps running around on loose
...
Ginzo: Screw that, I'mma outta here

Apathy

2008-08-21, 00:22

It only seems to get more confusing... ._.;

Kuma = bear?

Supernatural events in 1 and 2 are just the witches' claims... were they happening or not, in that case?

I know that red text sometimes shows up at crucial/frightening points of the game (and, of course, the red 'na' has significance in the title), but it seems to hold another sort of significant power?

I suppose it's even more confusing in 3, as it mostly takes place in the witches' world...

Sterling01

2008-08-21, 00:28

[SPOILER="more annoying questions"]Kuma = bear?
Supernatural events in 1 and 2 are just the witches' claims... were they happening or not, in that case?

Don't ask about Kuma = Bear... It's just stupid :heh::heh:
They "happened" in the eyes of the Witches
I would say if I don't know Ryukishi-sensei better, I'd say he had given up on Umineko...
Due to the fact that EP3 sounds more screwed up than ever...

Don't worry for the third arc of Higurashi... people thinking that as well

Rias

2008-08-21, 00:40

I guess the ultimate question is: If the meta world does behave like schrodinger's cat theory, then

Does that mean anything the witches claimed can be discard as "anti-mystery"? That is, even the power or red text itself is just "anti-mystery", since it's something the witches claimed?

That would make the story quite boring actually.

Also, seems that there are much mention that ワルギリア = Virgil. As ウェルギリウス = Vergilius, whom of course, is derived from Divine Comedy/Dante's Inferno.

Apathy

2008-08-21, 01:21

I know that kuma (熊 ) = bear, but that's about as far as I got with that one. ;

I never really understood the Schrodinger's cat theory. Ehe.

Although, from what I can grasp of it, it might presumably cause things to make sense in the witches' 'claims' versus reality, if it came to that.

kj1980

2008-08-21, 01:44

I know that red text sometimes shows up at crucial/frightening points of the game (and, of course, the red 'na' has significance in the title), but it seems to hold another sort of significant power?

Actually, the red text is a visual effect which provides Battler (the game player) the absolute truth. A sample would be:

George W. Bush is the President of the United States. He is the dumbest president ever.

The red colored texts mean that the witches' and their minions' statements are true. Uncolored text are opinions.

Come to think of it, I wonder how this will be done in anime form? Red texted Japanese subtitles?

tobiast88

2008-08-21, 03:30

Schödinger's cat is an illustration of quantum theory. You have a cat in a box, with a mechanism to kill it at a random time - completely random, in a millisecond or in a million years. The box is hermetic. Having no information about what's inside, the cat is in a state of flux: not alive, not dead, since you don't know. Once you open the box, that state of flux is over: you've observed and therefore perturbed the system, but gained information - but you don't know the state of the cat before you opened the box. The cat could have died, found Beatrice's gold, ate Maria's rose, pooped on each of the stakes' and the siestas' heads individually and turned itself inside out for all you know. All you know is what you observed, and when you observed you disturbed the system, possibly modifying the result. Meaning human consciousness can theoretically have an effect on the universe.
That's the theory.

Klashikari

2008-08-21, 03:33

I never really understood the Schrodinger's cat theory. Ehe.

The schrodinger's cat theory is used in Umineko as a visual theory to determine a case with several truths.
Walgiria explained that until the "box is open", the cat may or may not be alive (she used the example of a cathode ray tube of a television, which may or may not contain a gremlin). In a case where you don't have any confirmation, several statements can be considered as "truth" until you actually open the box.
This is very different to the "probatio diabolica" as you force the fact that a fact cannot be discarded as long as there is no proof against that fact. In the schrodinger theory, you are actually allowing several truths to be real, and they decrease in numbers over time, as you probably gather more and more clues/points about the case, thus, like said earlier, the observation is lead to have consequence to a said unclear case.

So, in Beato and Battler witty battle, BOTH magic and science sides are true until any of the side deliver the smashing blow.

The red colored texts mean that the witches' and their minions' statements are true. Uncolored text are opinions.
I would say that these can also be conclusion, deduction and even facts, though beato herself says they "may not" be the truth.
Come to think of it, I wonder how this will be done in anime form? Red texted Japanese subtitles?Either that, or Beato will have a "funny" voice for such lines... kinda.

tobiast88

2008-08-21, 03:53

My guess is that it'll cut to the words in red against a black screen while she says it.

Ithekro

2008-08-21, 04:01

Depends on how clever the studio doing the anime is now doesn't it?

tobiast88

2008-08-21, 04:06

Oh god, and DEEN has SUCH a great track record...

Thisguy

2008-08-21, 07:02

Yeah I'm still wondering how they were able to do thatRodulf won by (rather cunning) tactics, and Kyrie won by overpowering Leviathan's jealous power; she claimed her envy toward Asumu is 845 times more powerful than Leviathan does toward her sisters :twitch:

Now, it must be reminded that Battler's ~ and most likely our's, too ~ prime goal is denial of magic as a whole, and to prove that all murders are done by mere humans.
Come to think about it, by denying magic we'll be getting rid of these beautiful clothes from these murderous scenes that invloves magics...

No bravery fightings, No last touching moments of lovers. No Stake Sisters and Siesta too.

There waits us will be hidous scenes where brothers killing each other and their children for their own benefit, and Beatrice won't be there to take accusation of crimes.
... and, to make it worse, that'll be where we'll be heading in Answer arcs, unless Ryu-chan decides to make hell of twist to story.

EP3 made me realise this, and I now actually think it might be a good idea to surrender to Beato. :uhoh:

Klashikari

2008-08-21, 07:12

EP3 made me realise this, and I now actually think it might be a good idea to surrender to Beato. :uhoh:
Well, that's exactly what Battler suffers ever since episode 1.
Until we can prove that a 19th person (or more) that isn't a witch exists, it WILL be ugly (as it is hardly a matter of coincidence or accidents anyway. I honestly cannot understand how it would be an "accident" in the first 6 sacrifices case in ep3).

Thankfully, the cousins are absolutely unable to pull the strings considering their range of actions and alibi in the 3 episodes until Ryukishi is just reversing more cuckoo twists.

Apathy

2008-08-21, 07:28

So, if I'm understanding this:

Schrodinger's cat theory: there are several things which could be true, based on probability (in the experiment, whether the element decays or not). As long as the true state of affairs (whether the cat is alive or dead) is unknown, the cat is both alive and dead simultaneously due to this. It is only when one is confirmed that this one becomes truth. However, by seeking to confirm this, a person interferes with the experiment, and could have influenced it just by that.

... Ah, it's still kind of confusing to apply...

Still can't really wrap my head around probatio diabolica, other than it's 'an impossible proof'. =/ These things seem a bit over my head...

Klashikari

2008-08-21, 07:45

Correct. The theory implies that the cat is simultaneously alive and dead.
If it was the "probatio diabolica", it would be "the cat is alive until you prove it is dead!" which is used when you have absolutely no mean to prove it (vice versa, you can claim the cat is dead until there is a proof it is alive).

The theory makes the vision far much more broad in such case, and observations and random applications/interventions might change the outcome/result the observer seeked for.

Apathy

2008-08-21, 08:20

The difference being that there's a way to prove it (or a way to prove it without contradicting the situation) with Schrodinger's, but not the probation diabolica?

... I sort of get Schrodinger's cat now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

It seems to be more applicable to Higurashi, in any case? Well, pertaining to Rika/Bernkastel's view about 'a single piece changing the outcome of a world', or the various observations or actions that can lead to certain outcomes. Actually, there was a reference to Schrodinger in one of Bernkastel's poems, wasn't there? Although I really don't know if it's significant at all...

Sterling01

2008-08-21, 10:33

Oh god, and DEEN has SUCH a great track record...
Well the good thing is DEEN might not be doing it

Kets

2008-08-21, 13:54

What happened to Kumasawa and what's the bear theory?

Rias

2008-08-21, 14:39

What happened to Kumasawa and what's the bear theory?

Kumasawa was 1 of the 6 that got killed in the first night, her body was found in the guest room.

Kumasawa were found by the purgatory sisters, and were going to be offered as a sacrifice for the first ritual. However, she managed to repel their attacks. Beatrice shows up, and Kumasawa transform into Beatrice herself (another Beatrice. This Beatrice is the mentor/master of the current Beatrice). The two Beatrices battles, and Kumasawa-Beatrice loses. After her death, she joins Beatrice, Battler and Renove in the meta world, giving advices to Battler and Beatrice on their games. She is called Warugiria in the meta world.

Bear theory is just a play on words. It originated back in Ep1 when people thought that Kumazawa was kinda suspicious; that she might actually be Beatrice in disguise. The theory is further strengthed by the fact that Beatrice, whom romanji is Be-a-to-ri-i-che, has the starting sound of "Bear". Bear in Japanese is Kuma, which is also the start of Kumazawa. (I can't remember if there were further twisting on words for the zawa part).

Sterling01

2008-08-21, 15:02

Bear theory is just a play on words. It originated back in Ep1 when people thought that Kumazawa was kinda suspicious; that she might actually be Beatrice in disguise. The theory is further strengthed by the fact that Beatrice, whom romanji is Be-a-to-ri-i-che, has the starting sound of "Bear". Bear in Japanese is Kuma, which is also the start of Kumazawa. (I can't remember if there were further twisting on words for the zawa part).
I don't think there was any more word play...

Ithekro

2008-08-21, 15:13

What studio would be qualified to handle this type of story?

momobunny

2008-08-21, 15:17

Kumasawa was 1 of the 6 that got killed in the first night, her body was found in the guest room.

Kumasawa were found by the purgatory sisters, and were going to be offered as a sacrifice for the first ritual. However, she managed to repel their attacks. Beatrice shows up, and Kumasawa transform into Beatrice herself (another Beatrice. This Beatrice is the mentor/master of the current Beatrice). The two Beatrices battles, and Kumasawa-Beatrice loses. After her death, she joins Beatrice, Battler and Renove in the meta world, giving advices to Battler and Beatrice on their games. She is called Warugiria in the meta world.

Stupid question... but I never played the game and I just want to make sure...

Are you saying that Kumasawa is Warugiria? :confused:

Asashio123

2008-08-21, 15:26

It seems to be more applicable to Higurashi, in any case? Well, pertaining to Rika/Bernkastel's view about 'a single piece changing the outcome of a world', or the various observations or actions that can lead to certain outcomes. Actually, there was a reference to Schrodinger in one of Bernkastel's poems, wasn't there? Although I really don't know if it's significant at all...

Well, if my understanding of Schrodinger's Cat is correct, and the mechanics of the Umineko "time-rewind" or similar to the mechanics of the Higurashi "time-rewind", I don't see why it doesn't apply to Umineko, along with all the other visual novels, eroges, and H-games ever created. The "single piece changing the outcome of the world" seems to be true in Umineko, as well. Huh...

What studio would be qualified to handle this type of story?

Any studio, really, though I guess some studios are better at animating the whole mystery-genre than others. (Pss... Madhouse... pss...)

Rias

2008-08-21, 15:34

Stupid question... but I never played the game and I just want to make sure...

Are you saying that Kumasawa is Warugiria? :confused:

Depends how you look at it.

If you adopt the "anti-mystery" view, that is, you acknowledge the witches and their magic and what not, then yes. Kumazawa = Walugire.

In the real world, Walugire never showed up. So perhaps they are also the same person, or maybe they had nothing to do with each other. I kinda have a feeling that Kumazawa also knew about human-Beatrice that Ginzo kept in the past and perhaps indeed IS the "Beatrice" just like inthe beginning of the episode. Just without the magic and all that.

Apathy

2008-08-21, 21:08

Well, if my understanding of Schrodinger's Cat is correct, and the mechanics of the Umineko "time-rewind" or similar to the mechanics of the Higurashi "time-rewind", I don't see why it doesn't apply to Umineko, along with all the other visual novels, eroges, and H-games ever created. The "single piece changing the outcome of the world" seems to be true in Umineko, as well. Huh...

Ah, yeah: I was just thinking more of Higurashi when I typed that.

Schrodinger's cat... I guess its relation to these sorts of scenarios is the possibility of two things being true at once, and only when one is proven does it become that one. (The problem being that when you seek to prove it, you influence it in some way: I guess the VN equivalent is two paths being true, but by seeking to see whether one path is true, you could cause it to happen, and as such influence it? ... Erm, I'm just typing my thoughts out and getting confused again, so I could be wrong...). It seems that all of these situations just keep on looping around until a desirable outcome is reached.

As for Kumasawa... so, completely different things can happen in different worlds. ._.; To the extent of a complete identity change...

I guess the thing is how much the worlds affect each other- or how much you believe the 'fantasy world' to be true? =/

Kets

2008-08-21, 21:17

Whose picture was this of?

http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/Up_cg/464.jpg

Apathy

2008-08-21, 21:42

I think it's Eva-Beatrice (the one in the seifuku?). Could be wrong, though...

Sterling01

2008-08-21, 21:48

Whose picture was this of?

http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/Up_cg/464.jpg
Younger Eva

Nadeor

2008-08-22, 00:09

Come to think of it that Ryukishi also likes Asmodeus XD
But wth...Everytime the next day I come to check out this thread there's a new page
Everyone has gone insane over EP3 already...God the temptation is too much!

Just a question about EP3:

I know that Eva survived to the last night to find the gold, but did Eva.Beatrice kill her?
I sure do hope EP3 is another "Then there were none" XD

Looks like the witches can figure out pretty much by now:
The adults will pwn the sh!t out of the stakes if not careful XD

Sterling01

2008-08-22, 01:51

Just a question about EP3:

I know that Eva survived to the last night to find the gold, but did Eva.Beatrice kill her?
I sure do hope EP3 is another "Then there were none" XD

She's alive at the end.... like Keiichi was in Tatarigoroshi-hen

ganbaru

2008-08-22, 04:25

She's alive at the end.... like Keiichi was in Tatarigoroshi-hen

''like Keiichi was ni Tatarigoroshi-hen'' is she is a state that bad?

Klashikari

2008-08-22, 04:28

^
she is COMPLETELY broken.

Nadeor

2008-08-22, 07:46

Wow just as I thought...
Hey if I'm not wrong, maybe my theory about thinking of things indirectly according to higurashi will work!!!!

According to Higurashi:

Onikakushi-hen: Neck-Scratching, solved reason as Hallucinations
Watanagashi-hen: Stomach-Opening, solved reason as Mi/Shi-Body Swap
Tatarigoroshi-hen: Curse-Killing, solved reason as merely coincidence

and just like Umineko:

EP1: "Face-off"
EP2: The great halloween feast
EP3: ???...I don't know yet

Yes I did realize that Cotton-Drifting didn't occur until Tatarigoroshi-hen
but Shion(Disguised as Mion) did mention to Keiichi on the 'Surgery bed' about the Cotton-Drifting

So maybe we can use a similar logic according to the chapters of Higurashi
But since Ryukishi is a genius, he would definitely know better than to make it alike too much

chronotrig

2008-08-23, 05:05

Don't worry, no one's gonna be confusing umi 3 for Tatarigoroshi.

Asashio123

2008-08-23, 19:39

Ah, yeah: I was just thinking more of Higurashi when I typed that.

Schrodinger's cat... I guess its relation to these sorts of scenarios is the possibility of two things being true at once, and only when one is proven does it become that one. (The problem being that when you seek to prove it, you influence it in some way: I guess the VN equivalent is two paths being true, but by seeking to see whether one path is true, you could cause it to happen, and as such influence it? ... Erm, I'm just typing my thoughts out and getting confused again, so I could be wrong...). It seems that all of these situations just keep on looping around until a desirable outcome is reached.

As for Kumasawa... so, completely different things can happen in different worlds. ._.; To the extent of a complete identity change...

I guess the thing is how much the worlds affect each other- or how much you believe the 'fantasy world' to be true? =/

Huh... so in VN-context; before the game starts/ the first million words of text before the first choice>Schrodinger's cat theory is true.
After first choice> Shrodinger's cat is false, as the choice makes one ending one likely than another.

And in Higurashi-context; before the reboot starts> Schrodinger's cat is true.
After reboot, Rika angsts and doesn't do much> Schrodinger's cat is false, BAD END is more likely than GOOD END.
After reboot, Rika carries out her master plan to defeat Takano> Schrodinger's cat is false, GOOD END is more likely than BAD END.
(Should I put the above section in a spoiler tag?)

...Hmm... I kind of like the idea that before the "reboot" or whatever the Umineko equivalent is, the Schrodinger's cat theory is true, but after the reboot, how the characters act influences the ending.

Thus, Battler carrying out master plan>GOOD END is more likely than BAD END. :)

Apathy

2008-08-24, 02:11

Eh, I was under the impression that what you said was more or less the case, although I'm not sure about the 'true' or 'false' aspect of it. Also, with VNs, I guess there's more than one option influencing the story (more than Higurashi, I think? I've never played a VN, but I was under the impression you get to change the situation more/provide more input to the situation than Higurashi?).

My impression of things:

Schrodinger's cat: 'The cat is conceptually both dead and alive, as neither has been proven. Upon looking in the box to confirm it one way or another, one can confirm whether it is dead or alive- however, by doing so, one could also influence the experiment in some way'.

VN: The several different outcomes of the pathways (stemming from the same situation) are conceptually possible at the same time, as none of them have been proven to be true or false (the ones that happen or not). Upon seeking to confirm whether one outcome is the the case or another one is, one can 'confirm' that it is the case- however, in doing so, one would have influenced the path.

I don't know completely how VNs work (as I've never played one, much less Air), but to use an example... say in Air, there's Misuzu's good end, Kano's good end, and Minagi's good end. They're all conceptually possible at the same time, but if you 'seek to prove that Misuzu's good end is the case' (make the situation into Misuzu's good end, I guess), then you'd be aiming for Misuzu's good end- therefore, you have a conclusion, but one that's been brought about by your actiosn and desire to confirm/conclude whether it is one ending or another. (Although, confirming the ending of a visual novel isn't really as concrete as confirming the living state of a cat).

I think that the examples you gave for Higurashi are good. By seeking to confirm whether a good end was possible, I guess you could say Rika undertook the necessary actions in order to do so, thus influencing her destiny. The reboot just gives her different situations and the like each time. It's probably the same for Battler, too?

So, Higurashi: The different outcomes of a situation (in a world) are conceptually possible at the same time, as none of them have been proven to happen or not. Upon seeking to confirm whether one outcome is the the case or another one is, one can 'confirm' that it is the case- however, in doing so, one would have influenced the path.

I guess Rika seeking to confirm whether the Yamainu and Takano were behind things would have influenced the path, for instance. Or, as aforementioned, simply Rika seeking to confirm whether she could influence things to get a good end. It's probably a bit different, but I think there are similarities.

... But I could just be getting confused. ._.; Someone please correct me if I'm wrong... In any case, what you said sounds right to me.

I'm glad I'll never have to study quantum physics: if I can't even get my head around Schrodinger's cat, I wonder what I'd make of the rest of it (not to mention all the formulae)...

Ah, and of course: Schrodinger's cat was mentioned in the poem by Bernkastel for Minagoroshi-hen:

Please tell me what happened in this night.
It's like the cat inside the box.

Please tell me what happened in this night.
You don't know if the cat in the box is dead or alive.

Please tell me what happened in this night.
The cat in the box was dead.

-Frederica Bernkastel

d-one

2008-08-24, 02:15

If Umineko ep.3 adult character main focus is Eva, could it be at the ep.4 Kyrie gonna be the main focus? :)

it will be interesting to see another side of Kyrie

and maybe at the answer arc, the fathers will get the focus (Imagining Krauss, Hideyoshi, and Rudolf show his GARness to defeat Beato underlings till the end of the game :heh:)

Nadeor

2008-08-24, 02:45

Eva > Rosa > Natsuhi

Why? Let's just say Rosa-Musou is no match for Yangire-Eva...

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-24, 07:24

The problem with Schrödinger’s cat is that though both possibilities are possible theoretically, only the second (death) is possible logically.

The cat will die eventually.

The cat will die one way or another.

So one may assume;

You can only save the cat by opening the box.

The key is not finding whether or not the cat is dead or alive, but guarantee one possibility or another.

Theory is unlimited, while logic is limited in the scope of possibility.

There’s also a version that if you open the box the cat will die cause of the poison activates the moment you opened it. But this isn’t mention and would probably screw with what Ryukishi is implying.

ganbaru

2008-08-24, 07:35

.

There’s also a version that if you open the box the cat will die cause of the poison activates the moment you opened it. But this isn’t mention and would probably screw with what Ryukishi is implying. Dan Simmons used that version on his books Endymion and The rise of Endymion

Asashio123

2008-08-24, 09:39

Eh, I was under the impression that what you said was more or less the case, although I'm not sure about the 'true' or 'false' aspect of it. Also, with VNs, I guess there's more than one option influencing the story (more than Higurashi, I think? I've never played a VN, but I was under the impression you get to change the situation more/provide more input to the situation than Higurashi?).

My impression of things:

Schrodinger's cat: 'The cat is conceptually both dead and alive, as neither has been proven. Upon looking in the box to confirm it one way or another, one can confirm whether it is dead or alive- however, by doing so, one could also influence the experiment in some way'.

VN: The several different outcomes of the pathways (stemming from the same situation) are conceptually possible at the same time, as none of them have been proven to be true or false (the ones that happen or not). Upon seeking to confirm whether one outcome is the the case or another one is, one can 'confirm' that it is the case- however, in doing so, one would have influenced the path.

I don't know completely how VNs work (as I've never played one, much less Air), but to use an example... say in Air, there's Misuzu's good end, Kano's good end, and Minagi's good end. They're all conceptually possible at the same time, but if you 'seek to prove that Misuzu's good end is the case' (make the situation into Misuzu's good end, I guess), then you'd be aiming for Misuzu's good end- therefore, you have a conclusion, but one that's been brought about by your actiosn and desire to confirm/conclude whether it is one ending or another. (Although, confirming the ending of a visual novel isn't really as concrete as confirming the living state of a cat).

I think that the examples you gave for Higurashi are good. By seeking to confirm whether a good end was possible, I guess you could say Rika undertook the necessary actions in order to do so, thus influencing her destiny. The reboot just gives her different situations and the like each time. It's probably the same for Battler, too?

So, Higurashi: The different outcomes of a situation (in a world) are conceptually possible at the same time, as none of them have been proven to happen or not. Upon seeking to confirm whether one outcome is the the case or another one is, one can 'confirm' that it is the case- however, in doing so, one would have influenced the path.

I guess Rika seeking to confirm whether the Yamainu and Takano were behind things would have influenced the path, for instance. Or, as aforementioned, simply Rika seeking to confirm whether she could influence things to get a good end. It's probably a bit different, but I think there are similarities.

... But I could just be getting confused. ._.; Someone please correct me if I'm wrong... In any case, what you said sounds right to me.

I'm glad I'll never have to study quantum physics: if I can't even get my head around Schrodinger's cat, I wonder what I'd make of the rest of it (not to mention all the formulae)...

Ah, and of course: Schrodinger's cat was mentioned in the poem by Bernkastel for Minagoroshi-hen:

Higurashi is almost like us watching Rika play a live VN. We don't actually get direct input on the situation, but Rika does.

Otherwise, I was thinking more along the lines that Schrodinger's cat applies only to, say, the time before the Higurashi reboot (so that Rika has not made any moves on the playing field yet), but after Rika makes her first move, Schrodinger's cat does not apply any more, as her actions would have influenced (yes, that word) the outcome in some way, thus making one "END" (as I call it, eheheh) more likely than the others.

Similarly, during the time the box containing the cat is closed, Schrodinger's cat would apply, but if you took the box and threw it into a deadly wildfire, Schrodinger's cat would not apply, as it is far more likely that the cat is dead, than that it is alive.

So, I guess we're thinking the the same thing, although it seems that I'm thinking more about influencing a path before you try to confirm the outcome, while you're thinking about influencing a path by trying to confirm the outcome. Right?

...So... now to apply this to Umineko. Gaaaah~ :confused:

The problem with Schrödinger’s cat is that though both possibilities are possible theoretically, only the second (death) is possible logically.

The cat will die eventually.

The cat will die one way or another.

So one may assume;

You can only save the cat by opening the box.

...

This is confusing. It seems I can't understand anything unless it's put into a VN-perspective. :(

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-24, 10:43

Beato's power is to kill someone infinitely, the power of the schrodinger's cat, the ability to trap you into a paradox of possibility, but in reality there's only one reality, death.

To break that paradox, direct interference must be made, something has to be done before a set period of time, the ninth twlight.

Battler hasn't done much in the Witch's realm, though he is trying to figure out a way to defeat the witch, he first must try to find out the rules of this game and attempt to break them.

Sterling01

2008-08-24, 10:51

Beato's power is to kill someone infinitely, the power of the schrodinger's cat, the ability to trap you into a paradox of possibility, but in reality there's only one reality, death.

That's the power of the "Endless witch" which Beato currently has... though she can give it away.
The power she, herself, has is to make things remember their forms (ie fixing a broken vase or a "broken" Battler).

Klashikari

2008-08-24, 11:42

You misinterpretating a lot of things, CWA.
Beato's power is NOT related at all to the schrodinger's cat theory.

That theory is used to demonstrate that before the conclusion is given, both science and magic sides are right at the same time. It has absolutely nothing to do with Beatrice being able to chain murder people she chooses.

ClockWorkAngel

2008-08-24, 12:03

:p It's my fault for trying to connect things that don't match up things.

If that's true, then technically it would be impossible to find out. It sort of conflicts with her ability too, since its going to be a loop of death and doom, no conclusion will be presented, therefore you HAVE to break the cycle somehow.

It's like higurashi all over again, to win some sorta miracle is going to happen again. I have a feeling Enyu may make a human appearance eventually.

Apathy

2008-08-24, 22:19

So, I guess we're thinking the the same thing, although it seems that I'm thinking more about influencing a path before you try to confirm the outcome, while you're thinking about influencing a path by trying to confirm the outcome. Right?

...So... now to apply this to Umineko. Gaaaah~

I think that's more or less it. I... erm, think... ._.; (This theory is pretty confusing, isn't it).

As for Umineko, I guess the basic premise of the argument would be:

The cat is alive/the cat is dead = the cause is science (rationality, logic, etc.- a human explanation)/the cause is magic (supernatural, occult, etc.- the witches' explanation).

The problem with Schrödinger’s cat is that though both possibilities are possible theoretically, only the second (death) is possible logically.

The cat will die eventually.

The cat will die one way or another.

So, in other words, the cat has to die eventually (regardless of the cat living also being a theoretical possibility, along with death) as long as it's stuck as the box. I suppose this would be the case due to the decaying atoms, or whatever it was; as long as it was stuck in the box, there would eventually be a point where an atom decays, whereupon the flask would smash and the cat would die.

So... perhaps, despite Rika/Battler living being a theoretical possibilty, it's set so that they will eventually die- unless they do something?

You can only save the cat by opening the box.

The key is not finding whether or not the cat is dead or alive, but guarantee one possibility or another.

Theory is unlimited, while logic is limited in the scope of possibility.

The only way to save the cat- logically, not theoretically- is opening the box- otherwise, it will die. This is the only way to guarantee the 'alive' possibility- however, it needed the influence of 'opening the box' to do so. I guess the same is true for Rika/Battler: the only way to live (logically) is to break free of the samsara/rules (the rules being for Schrodinger's that 'the cat will die when an atom decomposes', which is sort of inevitable, I guess), and they have to guarantee that possibility. However, they have to influence it by wanting to do so.

The way that the theory is phrased is confusing sometimes, though, as it puts it across that by seeking to confirm (guarantee?) whether the cat is alive, one influences it to go in one direction or another. Although I guess if you want to 'guarantee' the cat living, again, the only way is taking it out of the box.

As for the latter part, I guess you could say that this means that the possibilities for magic being the cause are unlimited, and the possibilities for logic being the cause are limited. Which is a fair statement, I would think.

Otherwise, I was thinking more along the lines that Schrodinger's cat applies only to, say, the time before the Higurashi reboot (so that Rika has not made any moves on the playing field yet), but after Rika makes her first move, Schrodinger's cat does not apply any more, as her actions would have influenced (yes, that word) the outcome in some way, thus making one "END" (as I call it, eheheh) more likely than the others.

I think this could be the case, too: I guess all of her actions (in order to guarantee that Schrodinger's cat- at least the part where 'the cat will eventually die'- is not true) eventually culminate and help her break free of the 'box'. Is that sort of it...?

... I seem to understand things better in a VN context, too. ._. Or at least one where you can see the situation tree (even though the one in Kizuna still really confuses me)...

... In the end, I really feel sorry for that cat. ._.;

Nadeor

2008-08-24, 23:58

I remembered a quote from a philosopher:
"Whenever there's a paradox, there's another one within it"

It means there's an inner-paradox to every paradox that's outside
so I guess, by figuring out what the inner-paradox is and apply it, Beato will be defeated
Suppose this:

Battler: "Recital Requested! Beato, state the following using your red words!:
I'm a liar "
Beato: "...uh"

That will be just plain cheap, similar to the cat theory
you put it inside the box, but now the cat is powerful enough to come out and it forced YOU to go in instead...

Asashio123

2008-08-25, 09:48

I think that's more or less it. I... erm, think... ._.; (This theory is pretty confusing, isn't it).

As for Umineko, I guess the basic premise of the argument would be:

...

Hmm... I think you summed it up pretty well here. I'm going to stop theorizing on Schrodinger's cat. (Now, I'm reading up on Quantum Suicide, which seems to apply a bit more to Higurashi/Umineko [?])

It's kind of obvious that the crime was committed by man, not a witch. If it was committed by a witch, it'd be pretty boring. Of course, after seeing Beato and The Witches (Bern, 34, Walgiria, etc.) so many times, it'd also be almost unbelievable if they ended up being hallucinations or whatever. I'm sure they exist in some form or another, maybe in a state similar to Hanyuu's.

So, maybe Beato works similiar to the way the Sonozakis do. She didn't actually commit the murder, but just because, she lies to Battler and takes the credit for it.