Licensed Zaregoto Series (Light Novel discussion) [Archive]

Sterling01

2008-08-02, 22:35

Title:戯言シリーズ (The Nonsense Series)
Author:西尾維新 (NisiOisin)
Illustrations:take

It's completed at 9 Vols and 6 Titles
Beheading Cycle: The Blue Savant and the Master of Nonsense/クビキリサイクル　蒼いサヴァンと戯言使い
Strangulation Romanticist: Zerozaki Hiroshiki, Human Failure/クビシメロマンチスト　人間失格　零崎人識
Hanging High School: The Nonsense Master's Student/クビツリガクエン　戯言使いの弟子
Psycho Logical (First Part): The Nonsense Killer/サイコロギカル（上）　戯言殺し
Psycho Logical (Latter Part): Sour Little Song/サイコロギカル（下）曳かれ者の小唄
Magical Cannibal: Niounomiya Siblings, Masters of Carnage/ヒトクイマジカル　殺戮奇術の匂宮兄妹
Uprooted Radical (First Part): The Thirteen Stairs/ネコソギラジカル（上）十三階段
Uprooted Radical (Middle Part): Overkill Red vs. the Orange Seed/ネコソギラジカル（中）赤き従裁 vs. 橙なる種
Uprooted Radical (Latter Part): The Blue Savant and the Master of Nonsense/ネコソギラジカル（下）蒼いサヴァンと戯言使い

Summery of Vol 1:
Trapped on an island owned by Akagami Iria, a disinheireted "princess", surrounded by geniuses, and mildly annoyed that someone has started cutting their heads off, the Zaregoto series' inhumanly alienated narrator Kunagisa Tomo's escort/guardian/assistant "li-chan" decides he can't wait a week for the detective to get there and starts trying to solve the case himself. As it's not like he hasn't seen a dead body before.

Kunagisa Tomo: A genius engineer who's eighteen and can't go up or down stairs without the help of "li-chan" due to a mental disorder.

"li-chan": A person so apathetic that almost nothing seems to faze him. He is Tomo's escort on the island and knew her since she was thirteen. He's been studying abroad in Houston, Texas and was part of a special education. Has a very bad memory and doesn't like to give out his name as he thinks of himself as only Tomo's "sidekick" even though he's narrator of the story. He seems to have tried to "take" Tomo in the past and because of that he has problems sleeping in the same bed as her, even though Tomo doesn't mind if they "fool around".

Matt122005

2009-02-23, 02:04

Um, I request a mod edit the topic title.

Zaregoto is a LIGHT NOVEL series, and it should be states as such in the title.

I actually own the first volume which was released by Del Rey. I've began reading it and I must say its very interesting and I'm really getting into it. ^_^

-Matt

Kunagisa

2010-07-02, 19:37

Necro-ing another dead topic.

Any other readers out there besides the ones that hang around in the LN Rec topic? I recently just finished the 6th volume (5th title), and I must say that ... is a tough one to stomach (before this it took like 3 months to finish the previous title). This series is a long process of hurt and small but quick heals. The goal seemed to be how much can you screw a person over before he completely breaks down, then you tape that person back up and you hurt him even more than ever.

There ... are so much mental and physical abuse to Ii-chan that at some points for me I had to stop reading and go do something else before coming back to the plot. The novel at the basis is a mystery novel, yet at the core there is a much greater enigma that I still don't know wtf is going on (since he just introduced a TON of shit that he never mentioned in the previous 5 novels). One thing I like about this series is every ALWAYS without fail come to a really good explanation at the end of each title.

Another point is the characters, I just kinda brieftly looked at volume 7 and there are around 40 characters mentioned at the bios. Usually with huge long epic stories I can't remember who the hell is who by the end of like 2 volumes, but here I still remember almost all of them because each of they are so unique with their own idiosyncrasies and personalities that set them apart in an unique unforgetabble way ... though the sad (awesome) thing is that they almost all end up dead yet still come back to haunt Ii-chan in some way.

With volume 2 recently released in English I think this might be a good time to bring the thread back up and see if I can get more people interested in this again =P.

Westlo

2010-07-02, 19:45

With volume 2 recently released in English I think this might be a good time to bring the thread back up and see if I can get more people interested in this again =P.

Still waiting on my copy of Vol 2 to ship! Is there a tentative date for Vol 3 set yet?

Arabesque

2010-07-03, 19:13

I was lucky enough to receive mine on the morning on my trip (the beauty of pre-orders) so I had planned to finish reading throughout my vacation, but the moment I started flipped the first page, I went ahead and finished the whole thing in 2 days :heh:

So yeah, The Kubishime Romanticist ended up, surprisingly, better than the first book. Not that I thought that The Kubikiri Cycle was bad, but it didn't really leave me with such a strong impression as this book had done (evident in that aside from the premise, major events and some characters, I couldn't really remember what had happened in the first novel even though I re-read it a month ago) Now perhaps I'm being a little hot-headed since I recently finished it and it's still fresh in my mind (and it's the only thing aside from Gosick 2 that’s anime related I have here to help me pass the time) but I think I can attribute the stronger impression to the increased amount of deception that the story gives, not to make the murder cases and mysteries more difficult to figure out but to hide the true nature of the characters and just how fu*ked up everyone in this story really is.

Just like stuopidget had mentioned, this story may dress itself as a murder mystery, but underneath that it is all a look on how twisted and horrendous can people truly be all the while hiding it under a scarf of pointless arguments and vocabulary meant most of the time to distract the reader from what's actually going on but leading us somewhere all the same. I seriously have no idea how can Nisioisin can manage to keep increasing the level of depravity with each book after this for 5 more instalments. I can only imagine what sort of insanity lies in Vol. 3 *_*

I will say this: after this book, whatever happened in Ikkun Ii-chan's past better be something absolutely revolting, because while TKC might've given us some hints with him burring bodies in the past and what not, this one showed just how ''damaged'' he really is.
I think that the biggest shock to me was that after all was said and done, Ii-chan most likely didn't even feel responsible enough to actually cover for the suicide but he was actually coaxed by Mikoko into doing so, just like she did with him when she was alive all throughout the case.
One thing I like about this series is every ALWAYS without fail come to a really good explanation at the end of each title.
Hm, if the subsequent novels final explanations get treated like in TKR then I'll proplly agree. If they end up like book one however, good isn't what I'll use to define them.Another point is the characters, I just kinda brieftly looked at volume 7 and there are around 40 characters mentioned at the bios. Usually with huge long epic stories I can't remember who the hell is who by the end of like 2 volumes, but here I still remember almost all of them because each of they are so unique with their own idiosyncrasies and personalities that set them apart in an unique unforgetabble way ... though the sad (awesome) thing is that they almost all end up dead yet still come back to haunt Ii-chan in some way.
*Winces at bold text*

~_~

Yeah, I noticed that as well. For some reason, I can't remember the names of the characters in this series that well (I bet I'll have a hell of a time just fliping back to the bio page every 5 seconds when I get to that book then!), but I can recall thier personalties with ease (maybe they just have forgettable names? Reason for Ii-chan's poor memory? Maybe that's why he only has a simple nickname to avoid this problem? XP) The only one though that I can remember without fail is Maki the fortune teller. Maybe because she struck me as being the most interesting one of the whole punch in that book.

To me, it's hard to say if anyone actually leaves an actuall impression on Ii-chan, since I had completly misread him throughout this book, so I have no idea about that *_*
Still waiting on my copy of Vol 2 to ship! Is there a tentative date for Vol 3 set yet?I'm guessing that the release of book 3 rides on how well 2 does, because my copy didn't have any advertisement for it's release (or maybe thing changed since book 1)

Westlo

2010-07-14, 10:06

Kunagisa

2010-07-15, 03:48

Knocked off the first 100 pages today, took me a dozen or so pages to click with me but I've enjoyed the start to this quite a bit. Kinda depressing I might not get a chance to finish this series.. I don't mind the long wait in between.. I'm a Wheel of Time reader ffs lol... but they could pull the plug on this at any time... :(

I can see this happening as well. Better cross your fingers for an anime then (though most readers would agree an anime will probably be subpar to the text version since that guy thinks wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much, but SHAFT did do a decent job with Bakemonogatari and WF isn't doing too shabby with katana).

RowanWulfram

2010-07-17, 10:30

Maybe you guys can help me, then.

I just finished The Kubishime Romanticist and there's one part I'm still confused about; what is the x over y riddle? When Ii-chan asks Kunagisa if she knows what it means, she asks if its in cursive. When he says yes, she says "look at it in a mirror and turn it sideways". Needless to say, I tried to do this, but couldn't figure out the meaning behind it. Did I just miss something obvious?

Kunagisa

2010-07-17, 13:58

I had a really good picture for it on some blog, but I can't find it anymore, so you'll just have to settle with this crappy one.

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3909/originalx.png

Mess around with that and you get

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6661/finaln.png

Source (http://hmx.jp/archives-3/cat_06_zaregoto2.php)

One guess on whose birthday that is =).

Cursive really screws you over doesn't it.

Arabesque

2010-07-17, 14:55

Cursive really screws you over doesn't it.
More like Ii-chan's unreliable narration that does that lol

Maybe its just me, but that doesn't look like and x or a y or any of the English alphabet for that matter.
I guess writing with blood using your finger tip turns it like that?

Kunagisa

2010-07-17, 15:11

More like Ii-chan's unreliable narration that does that lol

Maybe its just me, but that doesn't look like and x or a y or any of the English alphabet for that matter.
I guess writing with blood using your finger tip turns it like that?

Haha indeed. I could imagine many people couldn't figure it out and end up discussing it over forums to come to the conclusion (I sure as hell didn't get anywhere close using the standard x and y to try to figure it out). And like I mentioned, that one isn't the best photo I've found so just have to bear with it XD.

RowanWulfram

2010-07-17, 15:24

Oh!
....
Oh? That seems... odd. Is that really what it is? Weird that everything else would be so detailed but that one thing N. leaves the fans to figure out. It's even harder because so many people have their own style of cursive...

The first one wasn't written in blood, it was written with a red ink. (oil based, wasn't it?) Which I just now realized; what was used to write the first two x/y was never mentioned. Neither was the third one, it just said the "victim had written it", so I assumed blood as well on that last one.

Thanks for the help though, that was likely to drive me nuts.

Kunagisa

2010-07-17, 16:54

Oh!
....
Oh? That seems... odd. Is that really what it is? Weird that everything else would be so detailed but that one thing N. leaves the fans to figure out. It's even harder because so many people have their own style of cursive...

Wasn't there hints on what her birthday was? I don't think he outright told you, but I do know the month was april, which for some solved the x part, then after that the rest is working backward. You know whatever's on it is related to her. Then it has to be either nicknames, initials and the such, but yeah it wasn't explained clearly I think.

Or maybe he explained it in the dictionary (yes he wrote a dictionary for this series), so I don't know.

Thanks for the help though, that was likely to drive me nuts.

Np.

apr

2010-07-18, 01:09

Wasn't there hints on what her birthday was? I don't think he outright told you, but I do know the month was april, which for some solved the x part, then after that the rest is working backward.

She tells him when they're talking in the mess hall. Not that he cares. (page 34)

orangejuicetang

2010-07-24, 16:14

Oh, so that was the answer to the x/y thing. Thanks, was driving me nuts.

Still, I felt bad for Mihoko.

Kunagisa

2010-07-24, 16:39

Oh, so that was the answer to the x/y thing. Thanks, was driving me nuts.

Still, I felt bad for Mihoko.

Mikoko's story's pretty sad, but on the this-is-fucked-up-chart she's on a pretty low spot in the series.

orangejuicetang

2010-07-24, 17:34

Probably, but she does get some extra bonus points from me because she reminds me of Satsuki from Tsukihime.

But hopefully Del Rey will continue with this series and release the third volume some time in the future.

Kunagisa

2010-07-24, 17:50

I hope so too. I would understand if they're hesitant about do 4 because it goes together with 5. 3 is still stand alone and introduces 2 really cool characters, and is the first one that Jun gets involved extensively.

Arabesque

2010-07-25, 08:18

So am I the only one who thought Mikoko reaped what she sowed? I didn't think it was sad, just pitiful.
and is the first one that Jun gets involved extensively.
So it's the shortest book in the series :heh:?

_eternal

2010-08-06, 14:24

So am I the only one who thought Mikoko reaped what she sowed? I didn't think it was sad, just pitiful.

I agree, somewhat. With stories like this, everything gets screwed up to the point that I find it hard to feel sorry for characters unless there's a clear victim. Like one of the characters mentioned, if anyone is a victim, it's Akiharu.

Arabesque

2010-08-07, 04:41

^Well,

If we had to say who were the victim(s) in this fiasco, Akiharu would certainly make the list, and Tomoe as well (but even then, because she wasn't all that interested in life or had been treating her friends well and opening up to them, she can be viewed in a negative light (or can be seen as somewhat pitiful) though the fact she was killed for such a stupid reason makes her at least sympathetic in my eyes).

Akiharu was a nice guy who was smarter than the way he looked or acted and got caught up in a tragic (and stupid) situation. The fact that he allowed himself to die for his friends was really noble, if misplaced on people that shouldn't count as friends.

Kakkou

2010-08-07, 07:21

Mikoko's story's pretty sad, but on the this-is-fucked-up-chart she's on a pretty low spot in the series.Man, I really really hope Del Rey finish releasing the series (and Kara no Kyoukai. Damn their empty words from Faust!). I'm in love with it and I'm just dying to know, yet terribly afraid of just how fucked up Ii-chan is and what made him that way.

So am I the only one who thought Mikoko reaped what she sowed? I didn't think it was sad, just pitiful.Nope, I was pretty much felt the same way about her as Ii-chan
did. Honestly, such a stupid reason to murder =/. Akiharu and Tomoe are the ones to be sad about for dying because of such a petty, messed up situation.

Buddy Waters

2010-08-09, 23:11

I'm just dying to know, yet terribly afraid of just how fucked up Ii-chan is and what made him that way.

Maybe one of these days he'll do a prequel novel and tell us. I kinda doubt it.

Kunagisa

2010-08-09, 23:39

Maybe one of these days he'll do a prequel novel and tell us. I kinda doubt it.

I think I will explode with joy if he ever does a prequel for the time before E3 and when he first met Tomo. He seems to be too interested in doing Jun Aikawa's stuff right now though. One can only hope ...

chaos_alfa

2010-10-25, 14:07

Kraker2k

2010-10-25, 18:16

Does anyone know what the status of the 3th volume is? Please say it hasn't been canceled :upset:

I'm also still waiting for the Kara no Kyoukai novels which Del Rey still hasn't even released volume 1 of :(

From the tid bits I've heard, we probably won't be getting a v3...

For starters.. the series wasn't all that popular, then Del Ray went down and got bought out by another company..

shmaster

2010-10-25, 23:00

I need someone to agree with me. Who believes Defective Product makes the perfect homeroom teacher of class minus 13? Human Disqualified also needs to appear for the obvious reason.

Kunagisa

2010-10-26, 01:21

I need someone to agree with me. Who believes Defective Product makes the perfect homeroom teacher of class minus 13? Human Disqualified also needs to appear for the obvious reason.

Oooh I don't know about that. I-chan is kinda ridiculously broken, all of class 13 together wouldn't top him ... Zerozaki can probably solo Medaka himself given that he could injure Jun ...

Besides the characters in volume 2, pretty much everyone else who appeared in the novel are basically completely freak cases, especially "I". I-chan doesn't fit anywhere except next to Tomo =P, or being abused by Jun.

shmaster

2010-10-26, 02:38

Exactly why Defective Product has to be there. He is the perfect role model for the class minus 13. If there is a goal that class minus 13 is aiming for, it should be becoming the same as I-chan. Assuming he doesn't lead the class into self destruction upon entering it, of course.

As for Hitoshiki, he has to be there to say hi to a certain murderous maniac who doesn't like to kill. It'll make a great contrast if you dump those two together, consider Human Disqualified is a murderous maniac who really ISN'T a murderous maniac but simply an ordinary person who forces himself to behave like one.
Though, Hitoshiki being class minus 13's homeroom teacher isn't a bad idea too, consider he is the Jail Alternative of Defective Product. And we know that Fox Faced has shown us how things can get worse if you find one instead of another between Jail Alternatives.

For how I love Medaka for it has been filled with broken psychotic nutcases, I just want to see it getting more ^$&%*^ed up.

Used Can

2010-10-26, 03:33

From the tid bits I've heard, we probably won't be getting a v3...

For starters.. the series wasn't all that popular, then Del Ray went down and got bought out by another company..
I honestly don't know why American companies bother with LNs. I don't think they are any popular in the US. Seriously, someone could be translating this for free in the Internet, by now, and much faster than Del Rey, I'm sure.

I guess I can always buy them in Japanese and read them later. I've got my hands full with 2 LNs in Japanese as of now, and it's hard for me to read them; so, I've got to go slowly. It's really sad, since I could be reading Zaregoto right now, if Del Rey wasn't so slow.

As for Mikoko, she was pitiful, but she got what she deserved. She planned the whole thing, which makes things worse. I agreed fully with I-chan's final quote "Don't be so spoiled."

Izayoi

2011-03-01, 23:12

I love thread necromancy, not really. Never knew there was a thread on this.

I honestly don't know why American companies bother with LNs. I don't think they are any popular in the US. Seriously, someone could be translating this for free in the Internet, by now, and much faster than Del Rey, I'm sure.

That sucks, but I doubt it will be that much faster with the passions of western translation communities. Although, I guess it will be faster than 2 volumes in 2 years. It is always better to just learn Japanese than rely on these translation. Also, can anyone explain to me why these translation companies take so long? I don't think it would be that hard to translate a volume in a week if loosely translated.

apr

2011-03-02, 05:31

Also, can anyone explain to me why these translation companies take so long? I don't think it would be that hard to translate a volume in a week if loosely translated.

Try it. I can barely read a book in a week.

Cruor

2011-03-02, 15:31

I love thread necromancy, not really. Never knew there was a thread on this.

That sucks, but I doubt it will be that much faster with the passions of western translation communities. Although, I guess it will be faster than 2 volumes in 2 years. It is always better to just learn Japanese than rely on these translation. Also, can anyone explain to me why these translation companies take so long? I don't think it would be that hard to translate a volume in a week if loosely translated.

It takes long because not many people are buying it. From what I hear to actually make a profit off it it needs to sell about 5000 copies (this is the break even point). Last I heard (months ago) it was only at 200 copies.

Zaregoto isn't popular is the problem. Maybe if it gets an anime it will become really popular but who knows. I think the companies need to learn having Niso anime of Bakemonogatari and Katanagatari probably won't make Zaregoto automatically popular. Besides looking at the naming scheme will make you think Zaregoto and the others are unrelated.

S3vEn

2011-08-01, 09:05

sorry for bumping this thread

but recently I finish reading volume 1 ----> gonna read volume 2 once I get my hands on it

unfortunate I was unable to find any volume summary for this series / spoiler / etc

if possible can someone please summarize volume 2 - 9 (end)

or major plot / character secrets (I am super curious about "I" real nature / background story)

Sean Gaffney

2011-08-02, 02:59

As far as I know, no one has done a detailed summary or spoilers of Volumes 3-9. I would enjoy being proved wrong, but...

As for 2, read the book! :D

Used Can

2011-08-02, 04:26

I hope some other company pics up Zaregoto. It's be such a waste to leave it at vol.2.

S3vEn

2011-08-02, 23:37

lucky enough volume 3 first few chapter has been translated into English

unfortunately I am still unable to find volume 2 english downloadd lol

I check the closest "chapters" and they said it wasn't available ;-;

I am so curious about the Ii-chan

if anyone want the link for volume 3 translations just msg me :D

Sean Gaffney

2011-08-03, 03:15

I would suggest the reason Del Rey dropped the series was due to low sales, most likely due to people wanting to download it for free instead. :mad: Go buy Volume 2 from Amazon if you want to read it.

Used Can

2011-08-03, 03:27

More than that, I think Zaregoto simply wasn't too popular in the West. In fact, LNs have never been too popular, unless they have an anime or some other medium which is more popular in the West that makes fans feel like buying the LNs, as in the case of Haruhi or S&W.

I think they should learn how to market these things better. Moreover, if the market is too small then simply raise the price. Zaregoto was cheap to begin with. I'm sure those who really wanted to read it would have paid a bit more, in order to ensure it still got translated and printed.

All the same, faster translations would have been a good thing as well. 2 years between releases was a terrible idea.

larethian

2011-08-03, 04:18

I don't think it would be that hard to translate a volume in a week if loosely translated.
this is actually the funniest comment I've ever heard in months (even if it's an old one). wwwwwwwwww

Makall

2012-03-03, 22:37

What's the likelihood of an anime adaptation?

Kunagisa

2012-03-04, 01:15

What's the likelihood of an anime adaptation?

Next to 0. Rumor has it that Nisio doesn't want this to be animated, and I do agree it would be incredibly hard to be animated.

I HOPE the Ningen "spin off" (the series share the same world view) eventually will get animated though as it has more action in it.

Tyabann

2012-05-07, 21:07

I just finished the second book and holy shit. :heh:

Really sad about there never being an anime, since there will clearly never be a translation of this series.

Arabesque

2012-05-07, 21:14

I guess I might as well ask: Opinion on Mikoko?

Also, the X/Y thing ... do you buy it? :heh:

Really sad about there never being an anime, since there will clearly never be a translation of this series.It's a pity the series never got popular in the English LN community (we were lucky we ever got the second volume translated in the first place) but I think there is a high chance of an anime coming along. The series is apparently popular enough, and with Nision properties selling like hot cakes, I guess there is a good chance we might get one in the near future. At least, for Kunagisa's mind's sake ... <.<

Tyabann

2012-05-07, 22:22

I guess I might as well ask: Opinion on Mikoko?

I don't think she really deserved what happened to her. Muimi, either.

Also, the X/Y thing ... do you buy it?

Only reason I found this thread was because I was looking for an answer regarding that. :heh:

The series is apparently popular enough, and with Nision properties selling like hot cakes, I guess there is a good chance we might get one in the near future. At least, for Kunagisa's mind's sake ... <.<

Kodansha apparently has ten Nisio anime projects lined up, and only two are unaccounted for... one of them will almost definitely be his new book, and Zaregoto would definitely end up being multiple projects... I can't see it happening.

Arabesque

2012-05-07, 22:44

I don't think she really deserved what happened to her. Muimi, either.Really? Even after what she did to Tomoe?(well, okay Tomoe isn't entirely without blame but still ...) I can get Muimi and Akiharu, but really?
Only reason I found this thread was because I was looking for an answer regarding that. :heh:And do you actually believe it? :heh:

For the record, I still can't believe anyone would look at that and think ''yeah, that look like X and Y alright'' :heh:
Kodansha apparently has ten Nisio anime projects lined up, and only two are unaccounted for... one of them will almost definitely be his new book, and Zaregoto would definitely end up being multiple projects... I can't see it happening.Well, they might be saving it as a surprise ...

or I should really just give up hope already. Le sigh ...

Tyabann

2012-05-07, 22:50

Really?

She deserved punishment, sure, but she sure as hell didn't deserve that.

Ii-chan is sort of like Iago from Othello, isn't he? Killing people indirectly through the power of words... and he says he hates murderers.
For the record, I still can't believe anyone would look at that and think ''yeah, that look like X and Y alright'' :heh:

It would probably work better in an anime. Funny, isn't it?

Qilin

2012-05-20, 12:25

Just finished the first translated novel, and I enjoyed it thoroughly. It contained much of the chararacteristic quibbling I'd expect from a Nisioisin work, but it helped flesh out the characters in full twisted detail. But still, the mystery itself was quite the page turner.

I believed that I knew what I was getting into when I heard this novel was a standard British-style mystery, but I was mistaken. While it did follow the genre conventions (corpse switching, impersonation, sealed rooms, etc.), the ultimate solution was crazy enough to impart an widely different impression from what I was expecting.

Another thing that impressed me is the amount of depth that went into developing the different characters. As I mentioned, this is mediated by each character's chronic verbal diarrhea. No character can be understood completely by face value alone, and that's what I love about it. Everyone has their own motivations that are left vague, making it sort of like a puzzle to solve. Though arguably, I'd say that the biggest mystery in all this is Ii-chan himself.

I'll be starting with The Kubishime Romanticist soon, and I hope it'll top the first volume. From hearsay, this is where the series begins showing it's true colors, and about time too since I still can't guess where this will all lead to.

Here's to wishing volumes 4 up to 9 finally getting a much needed translation. Otherwise, an anime adaptation would be lovely, though the priority seems to be on the -monogatari series for now. I find this story more interesting than Bakemonogatari at least.

Westlo

2012-05-23, 04:03

You mean volumes 3 to 9 get translated don't you? :(

Shikijin

2012-05-25, 12:52

Phew. Finally managed to finish Nekosogi Radical part 3. Now on with the spin-offs. Another 1600 pages to go :upset: And Nisio is still writing :eyespin:

Qilin

2012-05-25, 13:29

You mean volumes 3 to 9 get translated don't you? :(
Well, there is a translation of volume 3 somewhere in the net, so I'm not as worried about that. Of course, it isn't an "official" translation, but I'm willing to take whatever I can get given the current state of things.

But really. I'm dying to know what everything is leading up to, without having to taint myself with spoilers.

EDIT:

Finally done with volume 2, and wow. This one was even more relentless with it's verbose dialogue than the first one, though I admit that I found this one more interesting. For one thing, this volume placed a greater emphasis on Ii-chan's characterization, and boy. That was a truly glorious mess if there ever was one.

If anything, the actual murders were just plot devices used to convey just how much of a human failure he is.

Ii-chan is probably close to being an actual psychopath. His extreme indifference, coupled with his lack of empathy, seem to be indicative of this. These traits alone suggest that he is quite capable of killing others if he wasn't so adept at controlling himself. Mainly because he expresses strong aversion towards murder to remind himself of what he must not become. Of course, Zerozaki is the exception to this.

It's pure brilliance, I'd say. Ii-chan's strong condemnation for the act of killing someone out of passion is a product of him being unable to comprehend human emotions. In that sense, Zerozaki's habit of killing out of habit, without any need for justification or pretense, was much more palatable.

Unlike in Kubikiri Cycle, Kunagisa is largely absent in this volume, which already presents a stark difference between the two volumes. Kunagisa is sort of like a morality pet that keeps the reader from drawing attention to Ii-chan's incredibly messed-up personality. Here, we get to see him exposed in all its twisted glory.

I wonder what the hell happened to him in America. Something might have happened to him there to reduce him to such a state. Or, it might be even scarier if he was like that ever since before...

(As a side note, "Damaged Goods" seems like an awkward translation if there ever was one)

Shikijin

2012-05-27, 16:39

Well, there is a translation of volume 3 somewhere in the net, so I'm not as worried about that. Of course, it isn't an "official" translation, but I'm willing to take whatever I can get given the current state of things.That translation is incomplete, the translator has been inactive for long periods, and the third is even the shortest book in the series. I suggest you to start learning Japanese, in the long period it will do you plenty of good (try simpler stuff before Zaregoto though).
Ii-chan is probably close to being an actual psychopath. His extreme indifference, coupled with his lack of empathy, seem to be indicative of this. These traits alone suggest that he is quite capable of killing others if he wasn't so adept at controlling himself. Mainly because he expresses strong aversion towards murder to remind himself of what he must not become. Of course, Zerozaki is the exception to this.No, the psychopath is Zerozaki. Even Jun Aikawa has some psychopathic traits in her, though she is definitively not a psychopath. Ii-chan is a schizoid. The distinction between a psychopath and a schizoid seems to puzzle many people (the psychopath may not feel anything, but he feigns emotions so he generally appears even more emotive than normal people), but it suffices to say Ii-chan has a bigger sense of guilt than people credit him for, especially once you get past what he says.

Maybe it's me, but I think volume 2 is understood better when read a second time.(As a side note, "Damaged Goods" seems like an awkward translation if there ever was one)It is a correct translation, though.

欠陥製品

欠陥【けっかん】 (n) (1) defect, fault, deficiency, deformity, (2) shortage, gap, (P)
製品【せいひん】 (n) manufactured goods, finished goods, product, (P)

Qilin

2012-05-27, 22:48

That translation is incomplete, the translator has been inactive for long periods, and the third is even the shortest book in the series. I suggest you to start learning Japanese, in the long period it will do you plenty of good (try simpler stuff before Zaregoto though).
How depressing. Now, I find yet another light novel series that I won't be able to enjoy without being able to read Japanese.

No, the psychopath is Zerozaki. Even Jun Aikawa has some psychopathic traits in her, though she is definitively not a psychopath. Ii-chan is a schizoid. The distinction between a psychopath and a schizoid seems to puzzle many people (the psychopath may not feel anything, but he feigns emotions so he generally appears even more emotive than normal people), but it suffices to say Ii-chan has a bigger sense of guilt than people credit him for, especially once you get past what he says.

Maybe it's me, but I think volume 2 is understood better when read a second time.
Now that you mention it, schizoid might be a better diagnosis for him, given his general aloofness and apathy.

On the other hand, it could be interpreted as him restraining himself. I saw his aversion towards social interactions and murder as a barrier he consciously created to shy away from his true self. As he suggested himself (assuming he wasn't lying), Zerozaki is what he might have become if he didn't restrain himself as much.

But yeah. I really can't deny that he can feel guilt, albeit in his own twisted way. Not exactly for Mikoko or Muimi, but for Tomoe, who was somehow similar to himself.
It is a correct translation, though.
I figured it must be, given how awkward it sounds in English.

shmaster

2012-05-27, 23:15

Qilin

2012-05-27, 23:25

shmaster

2012-05-27, 23:43

Well, I have to bring in content of future volumes if we have to discuss more. Like his high school love story or the back side of volume 2.
But then, even volume 2 itself has provided some hints on this.

Remember Human Failure had made an analogy between his life and a train. That he feel if he stops here, his life thus far would be in vain. Human Failure refuse to fix his problem, or even re fuse to recognize only to protect who he was.

Tyabann

2012-05-27, 23:45

Did no one else notice that, despite his condemnation of murder, Ikkun is essentially responsible for the deaths of two people and the ruination of a third? :heh: There's a line of his at the end of the book, where Aikawa accuses him of manipulating the entire situation... his response to that was nothing if not extremely disturbing.

Such a bastard.

Qilin

2012-05-28, 00:35

Well, I have to bring in content of future volumes if we have to discuss more. Like his high school love story or the back side of volume 2.

Huh. Point taken.

I can't really argue having only read the first two volumes.
Did no one else notice that, despite his condemnation of murder, Ikkun is essentially responsible for the deaths of two people and the ruination of a third? :heh: There's a line of his at the end of the book, where Aikawa accuses him of manipulating the entire situation... his response to that was nothing if not extremely disturbing.

Such a bastard.
"Responsible" is such a tricky term to use here. He already stated within the book that he only felt responsible for one of the deaths, and that was Tomoe's.

If we adhere by his philosophy, the act of murder, by itself, loads the doer with a heavy guilt and self-loathing to the point of committing suicide. As such, all he did was to make those who would commit such an act aware of this. To him, it was their own guilt and despair that led them to kill themselves.

What's funny here is that the early portions of the book make such a show of condemning people who impose their values onto other people, and then we have Ii-chan here who unabashedly forces his views onto his peers.

I guess it's moral relativity again in this case. For the layman, he instigated two suicides (even if one was interrupted). But from his lens, he was only raising their awareness of the weight and gravity of committing murder.
I love this book so much.

shmaster

2012-05-28, 01:08

I think Defective Product is saying that to for the sake of himself. Like trying to remind himself not to kill as he sees absolutely no value in human life.

Qilin

2012-05-28, 01:20

I think Defective Product is saying that to for the sake of himself. Like trying to remind himself not to kill as he sees absolutely no value in human life.
I agree with you there.

In psychology, it's a coping mechanism called reaction formation, where an individual suppresses unwanted impulses and desires by acting in the opposite manner. All his pretense about condemning murder is just one of the barriers he imposed upon himself to control his lack of empathy. Without it, he states that he might have ended up identical to Zerozaki, a remorseless monster. As he puts it, he's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Shikijin

2012-05-28, 02:54

Wait a second, Human Failure most definitely is not a psychopath.
He is actually the more normal one when compared to Defective Product.
Human Failure cannot relate to others due to learned behaviors, unlike Defective Product who's personality is internally screwed up.Zerozaki was well received, so he had to be "herofied" in the latter books, but in the second book essentially he was someone who killed 12 people. He got the glib empty talk of a psychopath, as well as the lack of nervousness. There is also something mentioned in the latter books that could be used to argue he is indeed a psychopath, though in the end the series was not meant to be that consistent.
What's funny here is that the early portions of the book make such a show of condemning people who impose their values onto other people, and then we have Ii-chan here who unabashedly forces his views onto his peers.That's not really it. The thing is, Ii-chan knew Mikoko had killed Tomoe. It didn't take him much to figure it out. He also already knew Mikoko was head over heels for him. In the end though he couldn't accept to be associate himself with a murderer, so he tried to sweeten the blow by taking Mikoko out for a date, and then said her something that would have made her stop hanging out with him. It was an indirect message to Mikoko, he wasn't really trying to force his views onto his peer. He would have liked Mikoko to confess to police. He didn't foresee Mikoko would have killed herself, in fact he stated beforehand he didn't understand other people's emotions (and he even talked with Zerozaki expressly to understand how a killer thinks like!).As he puts it, he's a wolf in sheep's clothing.I think the original word was 偽善者, which literally means "person who feigns goodness", usually translated with "hypocrite". "Wolf" gives it an aggressive nuance, which maybe was not necessarily intended by the author.

shmaster

2012-05-28, 03:32

Zerozaki was well received, so he had to be "herofied" in the latter books, but in the second book essentially he was someone who killed 12 people. He got the glib empty talk of a psychopath, as well as the lack of nervousness. There is also something mentioned in the latter books that could be used to argue he is indeed a psychopath, though in the end the series was not meant to be that consistent.

I would not agree with this either.
Even though I would say he is the more normal one between the too, I also had no doubt he is a sorrier excuse of a human being then Defective Product.

At least Defective Product recognize his own problem and confronted time to time. And there is also the effort he made to make up what had he done to Dead Blue back then.
But Human Failure... just... in the end, whether avoid understanding it or is truly obvious... he STILL couldn't figure out what went wrong between himself and Man Eater by the end of the series. I can understand he wants to stay on the train of being a murder to protect his own identity, and I won't blame him 100% for his cruel words to the Man Eater way back then. But... how can he still not see his own problem AFTER his truth has been pointed out. This fact has traumatized me ever since the series ended, and I truly feel sorry for Man Eater.

Qilin

2012-05-28, 03:39

That's not really it. The thing is, Ii-chan knew Mikoko had killed Tomoe. It didn't take him much to figure it out. He also already knew Mikoko was head over heels for him. In the end though he couldn't accept to be associate himself with a murderer, so he tried to sweeten the blow by taking Mikoko out for a date, and then said her something that would have made her stop hanging out with him. It was an indirect message to Mikoko, he wasn't really trying to force his views onto his peer. He would have liked Mikoko to confess to police. He didn't foresee Mikoko would have killed herself, in fact he stated beforehand he didn't understand other people's emotions (and he even talked with Zerozaki expressly to understand how a killer thinks like!).
This is how I interpreted it:

He figured out Mikoko's murder early on, so he decided to confront her about it under the guise of a date. He then indirectly condemns her actions and that she deserves to die or go to hell or such. Basically, he was aiming to burden her with the guilt of her crime. That's all he was hoping for. Afterwards, he expected her to turn herself in or somehow show some indication of her guilt. The fact that she ended up killing herself was a surprise to him, but it mattered very little since he already did what he wanted to do. The confrontation with Muimi proceeded in a similar fashion, albeit more direct to the point.

Which parts of it are wrong exactly?

If there was any character in this story he had a connection with (minus the recurring cast), it would be Tomoe, given their similar outward personalities, and that he personally felt responsible for her death.

I think the original word was 偽善者, which literally means "person who feigns goodness", usually translated with "hypocrite". "Wolf" gives it an aggressive nuance, which maybe was not necessarily intended by the author.
That's how Del Rey translated it, though I didn't intend to use it in that context. I just meant that he consciously uses his aloof, apathetic exterior to hide something much more terrible.

Shikijin

2012-05-28, 07:23

he STILL couldn't figure out what went wrong between himself and Man Eater by the end of the series.I can't comment until I have read that part, but as I said, he is a psychopath.As written in Nekosogi Radical part 3, the Zerozakis don't feel anything. I think that's the similarity with Ii-chan, though Ii-chan just numbed himself out because too many people were dying near him, Hitoshiki is just born that way.

Basically, he was aiming to burden her with the guilt of her crime. That's all he was hoping for. Afterwards, he expected her to turn herself in or somehow show some indication of her guilt. The fact that she ended up killing herself was a surprise to him, but it mattered very little since he already did what he wanted to do.You forgot that in the note Mikoko left there was only written "I wanted you to save me". He did all the rest on his own initiative, because he felt responsible. Basically, for pity.

Ii-chan felt Tomoe understood him better than many other people, and he regretted he didn't have the chance to talk to her more. In the end though he didn't hate Mikoko for having killed Tomoe, because he was an outsider from the start. He didn't like Mikoko, but he bore no ill will toward her.

This point maybe is hard for those who don't understand schizoid thinking. Ii-chan meant to separate himself from Mikoko. From the distance, inside a buffer, he could have all sort of fuzzy feelings towards her. Maybe he even found her funny or cute someway. Ultimately though this didn't matter to him, he wasn't interested in her to begin with and then she even became a murderer. It's not like he couldn't feel any pity towards her when she died. And he didn't want her to die, though he had a reasonable guess she could attempt suicide (and he went at length to prevent that). Objectively though she was less than worthless, she was harmful. She killed a person out of jealousy, and it was not even guaranteed she would have stopped there.

(And Mikoko at least did it for herself. Atemiya did it for the sake of others (shifting responsibilities), so he went down hard on her)

I repeat, Ii-chan bore no ill will toward Mikoko. He didn't hate her. He wasn't even trying to punish her, he just wanted her to take responsibility. He didn't even manipulate her to commit suicide, so it's not his fault she died. He took every step to assure Mikoko wouldn't commit suicide. In the end he still feels a bit guilty, but precisely because he did all he could for her he doesn't blame himself much. Things just went that way.

Qilin

2012-05-28, 08:05

You forgot that in the note Mikoko left there was only written "I wanted you to save me". He did all the rest on his own initiative, because he felt responsible. Basically, for pity.

Ii-chan felt Tomoe understood him better than many other people, and he regretted he didn't have the chance to talk to her more. In the end though he didn't hate Mikoko for having killed Tomoe, because he was an outsider from the start. He didn't like Mikoko, but he bore no ill will toward her.

This point maybe is hard for those who don't understand schizoid thinking. Ii-chan meant to separate himself from Mikoko. From the distance, inside a buffer, he could have all sort of fuzzy feelings towards her. Maybe he even found her funny or cute someway. Ultimately though this didn't matter to him, he wasn't interested in her to begin with and then she even became a murderer. It's not like he couldn't feel any pity towards her when she died. And he didn't want her to die, though he had a reasonable guess she could attempt suicide (and he went at length to prevent that). Objectively though she was less than worthless, she was harmful. She killed a person out of jealousy, and it was not even guaranteed she would have stopped there.

(And Mikoko at least did it for herself. Atemiya did it for the sake of others (shifting responsibilities), so he went down hard on her)

I repeat, Ii-chan bore no ill will toward Mikoko. He didn't hate her. He wasn't even trying to punish her, he just wanted her to take responsibility. He didn't even manipulate her to commit suicide, so it's not his fault she died. He took every step to assure Mikoko wouldn't commit suicide. In the end he still feels a bit guilty, but precisely because he did all he could for her he doesn't blame himself much. Things just went that way.
I agree with that. I don't think Ii-chan ever harbored any ill will towards Mikoko the entire time. I would even argue that it's against his nature to act out of spite toward someone he barely knows.

However, his strong aversion towards murder still stands. Without any intention of manipulating anyone, he simply made his stance on the subject quite clear. He wanted to break down all the pretensions and excuses people make to justify killing other people, and expose the deplorable act for what it truly was. In tearing apart these fragile defenses, he was pretty much forcing his values onto them.

Of course, like you said, he never intended to instigate a suicide,and he probably even took some precautions to prevent it. But then, I don't think he felt any real attachment towards Mikoko to begin with, so the effect was minimal when these precautions failed.

shmaster

2012-05-28, 13:33

I can't comment until I have read that part, but as I said, he is a psychopath.As written in Nekosogi Radical part 3, the Zerozakis don't feel anything. I think that's the similarity with Ii-chan, though Ii-chan just numbed himself out because too many people were dying near him, Hitoshiki is just born that way.

That is the thing, he technically is not a Zerosaki. As Emoto pointed out, Human Failure does not have the natural desire to kill other human beings that rest of the Zerozakis posses. In other words, all the Zerosaki attributes Hitoshiki has were learned behaviors, and the very thing that has been killing him. (exercising power as a Zerosaki without mentally being one has been overloading his own body to the point of killing him).

Also, it is also wrong to say Zerozakis don't feel anything. They still have emotions, like the entire clan has a strong bond with one another (especially Mind Render), or how Belt Keep had his crush on Overkilled Red. Just their desire for murder overshadow rest of their personality.

Tyabann

2012-05-28, 20:44

Didn't he indirectly cause Muimi to kill... the other guy, I don't remember his name. Aikawa accused him of setting that whole situation up, and he just countered with "I couldn't do that, I don't understand people", something I feel the whole book shows to be a complete and utter lie.

Qilin

2012-05-28, 20:57

^ The fact that so many interpretations of a single character can coexist makes me glad I read this book. :)

In grand scheme of all things, Akiharu-kun was the true victim. I'd say that that incident betrayed just how little regard Ii-chan had for human lives. He set it up so that if Akiharu was to die, it would undoubtedly point to Muimi.

shmaster

2012-05-28, 21:50

Qilin

2012-05-28, 22:30

I believe there was no "set up". I feel he really didn't care on how the girls is going to react to his words. He just watch other human beings dances by his words, and then response to it as he sees fit. A really deranged form of a "whatever" attitude.
I'm pretty sure he had something in mind when he purposefully divulged the "x over y" thing as a dying message to Muimi. It was stated to serve as a form of insurance in case the murders continued after Mikoko died.

orangejuicetang

2012-09-10, 19:59

Does anybody know what happened to the website that was slowly translating Zaregoto volume 3?

Cruor

2012-09-19, 12:16

As far as Ii-chan's psychology I think he might've been intending for a bit more then we think simply because of how quickly he switched gears to eating the evidence and terrorizing Atemiya. But yeah, staying cool in those kinda of situations could easily be the kind of stuff he picked up from his past.

Does anybody know what happened to the website that was slowly translating Zaregoto volume 3?

The translator said he was going to remake it (or rather something about how he would actually get back to work) in August. And then at the end of August, well, that happened. So yeah, I can only assume he's either finishing it and wanted to put it in a different format or he gave up but was being sly about it. Considering he said he was going to update it in August I'm leaning on the former hopefully.

Also I believe a second project started up for the novel.

orangejuicetang

2012-09-21, 15:50

Also I believe a second project started up for the novel.

Tell me more

Cruor

2012-09-25, 15:34

Not sure if I'm allowed to link to it? Well, I've seen threads link to BT and Del Ray kinda went under so maybe?

Here. (http://www.suiminchuudoku.net/tl/wikka.php?wakka=zaregototsukainodeshi)

Izayoi

2012-09-25, 22:03

this is actually the funniest comment I've ever heard in months (even if it's an old one). wwwwwwwwww

In my defense, I didn't specify how many people were translating. However, after some experience in translating I realized the time of the process is quite disproportional to the time it takes to consume the translated material. So I was naive, and I admit it now but "wwwwwwww" was definitely unnecessary! sad face :V

orangejuicetang

2012-11-11, 17:40

Now is the time to split. This is not my selfishness or my cowardice -- this is my strategy. Alright, Shiogi-chan. If the strategist you is going to treat Tamamo-chan like that -- then I'll throw away my role as the user of nonsense.

From now on, it's not about going behind each other's backs.

It's a fight to the death.

I'll kill you, slice you to bits, line you all up, trim you down to size, and set you out for all the world to see.

Oh my, ii-chan.

Sol Falling

2012-12-14, 07:06

Picked up the third novel translation by the second translator group...just one chapter (the epilogue) remaining, so I gave into temptation. Was freakin' awesome, and I feel at this point as if we've started to really have a good idea of what Ii-kun's character is. Not only that, but unexpectedly this volume still threw in the (perhaps somewhat meaninglessly) obligatory murder mystery as well. It was pretty satisfying to guess the culprit correctly, I guess that Nishio might have set that up. The climax/reveal was, as always, non-stop awesome.

Reading through some of the more light-hearted sections, there were times where Ii-kun's personality really felt like Araragi, lol. And I guess a lot of the more philosophical stuff about things like strength and relativity reminded me strongly of themes brought up again in Medaka Box. These are pretty fascinating catches, and although I guess Nishio could possibly be criticized for reusing so many character types or themes in his own works, I'm grateful because I really feel like getting access to Zaregoto also helps me gain insight Nishio's other series.

Kunagisa

2012-12-15, 08:58

Picked up the third novel translation by the second translator group...just one chapter (the epilogue) remaining, so I gave into temptation. Was freakin' awesome, and I feel at this point as if we've started to really have a good idea of what Ii-kun's character is. Not only that, but unexpectedly this volume still threw in the (perhaps somewhat meaninglessly) obligatory murder mystery as well. It was pretty satisfying to guess the culprit correctly, I guess that Nishio might have set that up. The climax/reveal was, as always, non-stop awesome.

Did you figure out the closed room trick (the answer is in the epilogue)? How did Hime-chan get out with the room locked from the outside?The solution is pretty simple now that I've read ... quite a few closed room cases, but when I first started reading mysteries I thought it's brilliant (partly because he managed to distract me from even focusing on the trick until the very end). The epilogue is actually the most fun of every single arc imo.

This will probably be surprising to you but Shiogi is actually Nishio's favorite character for this series! During 2007's popularity, she poll ranked 8th out of 100 or so Nishio characters. You won't find out all her story unless you read Ningen series too. She appears for so little in this volume but ... I do wish she lived in retrospect because Nishio kept writing more about her and how awesome she is (not to mention she has by far the coolest title) ... NISHIO YOU MONSTER.

Sol Falling

2012-12-15, 10:21

Did you figure out the closed room trick (the answer is in the epilogue)? How did Hime-chan get out with the room locked from the outside?The solution is pretty simple now that I've read ... quite a few closed room cases, but when I first started reading mysteries I thought it's brilliant (partly because he managed to distract me from even focusing on the trick until the very end). The epilogue is actually the most fun of every single arc imo.

Haha, no, I didn't think too much about the trick either, although now that you've suggested it I may give it a try. I haven't read too many murder mysteries myself but I guess the point you mention about distraction is pretty relevant because with regards to the culprit part I felt like Nishio deliberately brought it up and revealed quite a few clues early on which is I went and made a guess. In terms of logically deducing the escape/murder method itself I've got pretty little experience or skills.

Since it's Hime-chan the two immediate ideas to think of are rappelling down the window like she did with Iichan later, or going through the vent like she said she did when she left. The questions in my mind are whether it's possible to close the window or vent again using just string. Aside from that...hmm, maybe taking the Dean's hand with her and just walking out the door and locking it; question would be if it's possible to hide it/put it back without Aizawa-san noticing (seems unlikely). lol, this seems to be the limit of all I can think of for now, when the answer comes out I suppose I'll see.

This will probably be surprising to you but Shiogi is actually Nishio's favorite character for this series! During 2007's popularity, she poll ranked 8th out of 100 or so Nishio characters. You won't find out all her story unless you read Ningen series too. She appears for so little in this volume but ... I do wish she lived in retrospect because Nishio kept writing more about her and how awesome she is (not to mention she has by far the coolest title) ... NISHIO YOU MONSTER.

Haha, so Shiogi is Nishio's favourite. That poll rank is pretty impressive/interesting; so aside from Ningen series, does she show up again in Zaregoto's main books at all?
lol yes, I did find her very amusing and Nishio was doing a quite a good job of making me like/warm up to her just before she...died (lol).
Hmm, so I wonder if Shiogi is the only "strategist" character in the series, or if her entire family is. If she is the only strategist character, that could be an interesting reason for understanding why she's Nishio's favourite, particularly considering the way her concept contrasted with Ii-kun, the "scammer" main character.

Shikijin

2012-12-16, 12:13

Reading through some of the more light-hearted sections, there were times where Ii-kun's personality really felt like Araragi, lol.Yeah, and Hime-chan is a bit like Hachikuji.

orangejuicetang

2012-12-26, 13:53

So the 3rd novel is now fully translated

I was actually really surprised when Shiogi and Tamamo died because I thought they were somewhat popular, and they really didn't do much before they suddenly died.

Also, is it just me, or does each novel make ii-chan appear more and more abnormal?

Kunagisa

2012-12-26, 19:11

lol, this seems to be the limit of all I can think of for now, when the answer comes out I suppose I'll see.

;)

so aside from Ningen series, does she show up again in Zaregoto's main books at all?

Outside of Ii's random musings, I don't believe so (it's been a while though, and I still haven't finish the very last volume). However ... Nisio mentioned something about using Recovery on her in the Zerozaki series, and I have no idea what Recovery is.

Hmm, so I wonder if Shiogi is the only "strategist" character in the series, or if her entire family is. If she is the only strategist character, that could be an interesting reason for understanding why she's Nishio's favourite, particularly considering the way her concept contrasted with Ii-kun, the "scammer" main character.

I thought her mom is one of the four + one families of the Econimcal world, which I don't think was explored too heavily. Ma ... I can't shed too much light on this because I haven't read everything's related to this series ...

One more thing though, Hime-chan's the strongest character in the entire series in terms of pure fighting strength, which was a nice contrast to Shiogi's character type~

Yeah, and Hime-chan is a bit like Hachikuji.

I like Hime-chan a lotttt more, cause she's so stupid. When Hachikuji appears it's none-stop neta talk = /me rivers of tears

Also, is it just me, or does each novel make ii-chan appear more and more abnormal?

For me, at least up until the end of arc one (vol 1-3), he is the "most normal" character, at least in comparison to everything/one else. The only part that made me ??? is when he fought Zerozaki to a standstill. WTF?!?!

Sean Gaffney

2012-12-27, 04:24

;)
For me, at least up until the end of arc one (vol 1-3), he is the "most normal" character, at least in comparison to everything/one else. The only part that made me ??? is when he fought Zerozaki to a standstill. WTF?!?!

It's hard to define Ii-chan as normal when the books are filtered through his unreliable narration. We've already had him outright lie to the reader a few times. And his avoidance tendencies make me feel confrontational by comparison.

The prologue to Book 4 seems to be done, by the way. Why do I get the feeling the ninth and final book won't end with happy shippy Ii-chan/Kunagisa wuv wuv?

Shikijin

2012-12-27, 15:57

One more thing though, Hime-chan's the strongest character in the entire series in terms of pure fighting strength, which was a nice contrast to Shiogi's character type~There are stronger characters, like Jun Aikawa for example.

I read the translation of the first chapter of book 4, but there are some points wrong. Ayaminami Hyou is called "Cheetah" (because he is fast), not "Cheater". And the Mad Demon is "indulgence in depravation", not "Fallen Three-string".

Kunagisa

2012-12-27, 18:02

There are stronger characters, like Jun Aikawa for example.

Nisio says Hime-chan's strongest! Here's the excerpt:

http://puu.sh/1G6fxhttp://puu.sh/1G6fi

It's hard to define Ii-chan as normal when the books are filtered through his unreliable narration. We've already had him outright lie to the reader a few times. And his avoidance tendencies make me feel confrontational by comparison.

Normal people lie too ;).

All his actions seem logical enough at least early on (I assume you mean normal as in behavior, not intellectual level etc.; dude was in ER3 afterall).

PS: So awesome that people are still discussing this series. I do wish there are more official English translations though, I'd buy the series again just to read it in another language.

orangejuicetang

2012-12-27, 21:45

For me, at least up until the end of arc one (vol 1-3), he is the "most normal" character, at least in comparison to everything/one else. The only part that made me ??? is when he fought Zerozaki to a standstill. WTF?!?!

Well, what I mean by getting more abnormal is sort of like this.

Volume 1: He's on an island filled with geniuses and eccentrics, so by comparison he seem like a simple normal person. Although there are a few hints thrown here and there mostly by other people's perceptions and comments on him like the mindreader Maki's, although nearly everybody's somewhat unreliable and deceptive. Still, compared to all those people, he seemed like he could just be a normal person.

Volume 2: This is where I felt I could see his abnormalness more clearly, since unlike volume 1, in this volume he's surrounded by more or less 'normal' people (not counting zerozaki). Actually the way he sort of sees Zerozaki as a mirror image first hints towards something of an abnormality, and the conversations and interactions with the rest of the normal 'students' sort of causes ii-chan's difference to show. Also, in light of the third novel, it's sort of interesting to remember Muimi's line near the end of the book, which went something like 'We got along so well, then as soon as you appeared everything went to shit'.

Volume 3: This is where people call more attention to his difference from normality and even begin theorizing about it, mostly Shiogi and Jun, that he's an 'aimless equation' or filled with 'missing parts' or the like.

Qilin

2012-12-28, 09:00

I just finished the 3rd novel translation, and wow... What a ride. I'll need a few hours at least to fully form my thoughts on this one, but then I'd like to slip in some of my impressions of Ii-chan before they slip away into forgetfulness.

If anything, this third novel puts into perspective just how broken Ii-chan's character is. While his involvement with the events of the second novel already indicated this, it is only here that these anomalies to his personality are emphasized, especially without a foil in the form of Zerozaki to complement his character (or lack thereof).

I did notice that he makes a habit of distancing himself from everything from the second novel, but I didn't realize that his emptiness was so complete, so pervasive. It's terrifying. It's the reason why he can face the prospect of death almost indifferently. It's also the reason why lying and deceiving others is like breathing to him. He practically has no self to conceal. All he is a lonely husk directed by a set of sham ideals and an unerring devotion towards Kunagisa.

If there's any hope for him, it's that he seems to be consciously suppressing his own self (presumably out of guilt or escapism) to create this hollow persona he is projecting.

In any case, Jun pestering Ii-chan with her assorted character impressions was many shades of awesome. :D

Tyabann

2013-01-18, 18:06

blackwhite67

2013-01-18, 19:45

Where are you guys reading it? I can't find it anywhere.

Arczyx

2013-01-18, 21:51

Where are you guys reading it? I can't find it anywhere.

Suimin Chuudoku (http://www.suiminchuudoku.net/tl/wikka.php?wakka=Zaregoto)

Of course, the volume 2 is not there.

Qilin

2013-01-18, 22:14

Finally got around to reading Vol. 3.
Am I the only one kind of disappointed by Ikkun's character in this book? He's FAR crazier in Vol. 2... here he felt quite a bit more sanitized, and the story being more simple/straightforward didn't help matters.
The thing about Ii-chan is that he likens himself to a passive observer. That is his default state of action. Volume 2 is what happens if he ends up getting too personally caught up in an incident and becomes an actual player. Still, the fact remains that nothing ever ends up well as long as he's involved.

Well, that's what I'd like to say, but he did seem to do quite a bit of interference in the events of the third volume, so I can't really say that he was all that passive. But then, I guess I should say that his talents lie with inductive reasoning and psychological warfare, so there wasn't much opportunity for him to use those talents. I probably didn't help that he ended up projecting Kunagisa Tomo onto Yukariki Ichihime for a good chunk of the novel.

You could probably say that his presence in the story was utterly pointless. You could probably even say that he made things even worse. At least two less people would have died if he didn't happen to come.

blackwhite67

2013-01-18, 22:49

I think Il coming off as broken should be no surprise at this point. I mean he's really been stressing it out in the first two volumes.

Tyabann

2013-01-19, 03:48

The thing about Ii-chan is that he likens himself to a passive observer.
Just like every other light novel protagonist, which is rather frustrating, reading this now.
It's probably possible that Ikkun helped to inspire those kind of utterly boring characters though. Not that I think Ikkun himself is that boring as long as he's actually involved in things and isn't talking about how tsukkomi he is every three lines.
You could probably say that his presence in the story was utterly pointless. You could probably even say that he made things even worse. At least two less people would have died if he didn't happen to come.
You could say the latter two statements about Vol. 2 as well, but at least there he felt like a major character.
Here it was pretty much The Jun Show and as much as I like her she really isn't all that interesting due to being entirely too overpowered. Much like Medaka, I guess.

I really hope the rest of the series is more like Vol. 2 than it is like Vol. 3. This was rather disappointing.

Qilin

2013-01-19, 11:52

Just like every other light novel protagonist, which is rather frustrating, reading this now.
It's probably possible that Ikkun helped to inspire those kind of utterly boring characters though. Not that I think Ikkun himself is that boring as long as he's actually involved in things and isn't talking about how tsukkomi he is every three lines.
I'd argue that that's the entire point of his character though. He's an utterly broken individual with nothing left within him except for an irrational devotion towards Kunagisa Tomo. Take that away and you'd have an empty husk with an equally empty set of rules that defines it's existence. In that sense, he's comparable to Hanekawa Tsubasa in Nekomonogatari Black.

You could say the latter two statements about Vol. 2 as well, but at least there he felt like a major character.
Here it was pretty much The Jun Show and as much as I like her she really isn't all that interesting due to being entirely too overpowered. Much like Medaka, I guess.

Well, I can't argue with that. Jun's flashiness easily overpowers Ii-chan's bland-ish character. Still, he didn't exactly do anything especially different from the things he did in the previous volume, so the difference is either Jun hogging the climax all to herself or how little control he had over the entire incident. That's reasonable, I guess.

I personally liked it since it places into perspective what exactly is wrong with his character to begin with, exactly what was unsettling about his interactions with the people around him.

Tyabann

2013-01-19, 12:29

I'd argue that that's the entire point of his character though. He's an utterly broken individual with nothing left within him except for an irrational devotion towards Kunagisa Tomo. Take that away and you'd have an empty husk with an equally empty set of rules that defines it's existence. In that sense, he's comparable to Hanekawa Tsubasa in Nekomonogatari Black.
In the sense that most of what's visible of his personality is just an act in an attempt to seem like a normal person, yeah. Kumagawa is exactly like this too (though he barely even tries). I guess Nisio loves these kind of characters.
My problem is that I have some difficulty really buying into that in this case, I guess? Ikkun felt too human in this book, as compared to the previous.
I sort of expected him to absolutely ruin Ichihime like he did to Mikoko and Muimi, but I suppose the main reason he did that wasn't because he "hates murderers" but more because they got him involved in their ridiculous friendship drama.

Qilin

2013-01-19, 18:51

In the sense that most of what's visible of his personality is just an act in an attempt to seem like a normal person, yeah. Kumagawa is exactly like this too (though he barely even tries). I guess Nisio loves these kind of characters.
My problem is that I have some difficulty really buying into that in this case, I guess? Ikkun felt too human in this book, as compared to the previous.
I sort of expected him to absolutely ruin Ichihime like he did to Mikoko and Muimi, but I suppose the main reason he did that wasn't because he "hates murderers" but more because they got him involved in their ridiculous friendship drama.
For me, it was the opposite. I found his portrayal a lot more human in the previous book than here. The previous story at least had Zerozaki and Tomo-chan for him to sympathize with no matter how remotely. Heck, his unusual actions in the novel were thanks to whatever little sense of likeness he felt towards Tomo-chan, which is probably the closest he can get to feeling for another human being. Here, on the other hand, he felt more like a piece of cardboard, vaguely going where the flow takes him. As a result, he felt even more unnerving considering what we already know about his character.

But yeah. I'd say that Vol. 2 was the exception rather than the rule in describing his usual behavior. Though I'd agree that I missed all the mind games that made the previous volume so enjoyable.

Tyabann

2013-01-19, 18:57

Here, on the other hand, he felt more like a piece of cardboard, vaguely going where the flow takes him.
I guess my problem is that there are way too many other main characters like that, although in their case it's never presented as a character flaw. :heh:

Qilin

2013-01-19, 19:09

I guess my problem is that there are way too many other main characters like that, although in their case it's never presented as a character flaw. :heh:
Fair enough. Perhaps this is Nisio's attempt at deconstructing a popular character archetype?

Tyabann

2013-01-19, 19:53

Fair enough. Perhaps this is Nisio's attempt at deconstructing a popular character archetype?
Ikkun might predate a lot of characters like that. Zaregoto was first published in 2002.

Sol Falling

2013-01-19, 21:24

blackwhite67

2013-01-19, 21:26

I wonder how Ii will have developed as a character by the last volume?

Tyabann

2013-01-20, 02:55

Qilin

2013-01-20, 03:26

Aside from being caught up in Jun's task for him at the beginning, I don't really see how this third volume involved Ikkun being caught up in a flow.

In the beginning him and Hime were caught up/trapped in Shiogi's strategy, but throughout that section it was mostly Ikkun leading the way. Subsequently they were rescued by Jun, but that only lead to them discovering the murder and locking themselves up in the Dean's office.

From that point forward, it was Ikkun's will to throw himself out there and not live in dependence upon someone greater than him. That/those actions got to one of the legitimate core of Ii-kun's character. Despite knowing himself as broken (or perhaps rather, because he knows himself to be broken), Ii-kun refuses to allow himself to depend on any other person. Correspondingly, Ii-kun develops a contempt for any kind of person who tries to depend on him. The only exception to this is Kunagisa Tomo, who is both the victim and responsible for why Ii-kun is broken in the first place.
When mentioned him being caught up in a flow, I was talking about the events of the novel in general. The fact that his presence had nearly no effect on the incident except to make it worse presents him as kind of a puppet to the flow of the story.

Regardless, this is an interesting interpretation. I intentionally left out the bit about Ii-chan's complex towards Jun since I couldn't find a way to reconcile it with what we already know about his character, but it seems you've done so pretty well. What exactly makes this interpretation is interesting is that it suggests the existence of another layer to his already convoluted psyche.

On the outside, you have his surface facade, a cool passive observer who struggles to maintain an air of non-involvement in most matters. Beneath that is an empty husk devoid of any morals, values, dreams, or ideals, defined only by an arbitrary set of rules to govern his actions. But this perspective then suggests a third, deeper layer to his character that actively perpetuates the aforementioned layers. It's the side of him that is averse to any influences that may threaten the way of life he's decided to adopt. Using this framework, I'd guess that it was this side of him that triggered his deep involvement in the events of Volume 2.

Sean Gaffney

2013-07-06, 17:22

So now that Book 4 is translated, what do people think? Yes, it seems to be a 2-parter with the incomplete book 5, but...

Seems to me to be more conversation and less action than usual. Also less focus on Ii-chan sucking (though there is still a TON of that) and more on why he's with Kunagisa. There seem to be a larger number of people who are good at pushing his buttons... or at least getting him to admit he has buttons.

I like the female Jigen who goes as their bodyguard, as well as the researcher who blatantly solicits Ii-chan for sex. And Kunagisa's reaction to the ending of the book was both startling and creepy and amusing all at once.

Also loved the description of that test that Ii-chan took while in Houston.

Reading Zaregoto just reminds me how light and fluffy Medaka Box is by comparison. :)