Tale of Genji (2009 adaptation) [Archive]

Nerroth

2009-01-03, 17:47

According to ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=10223), the main voice actors (http://genji-anime.com/staff.html) are Aya Endo (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=27752) as Murasaki no Ue, Sakiko Tamagawa (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=851) as Fujitsubo no Nyōgo and Takahiro Sakurai (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=5039) as Hikaru Genji himself.

It looks like Puffy AmiYumi (http://genji-anime.com/music.html) are doing the OP (http://www.puffyamiyumi.com/)...

New single info!!
　(2008.12.8)

The next single release has been confirmed.

New Single "Hiyori Hime"
2009.02.25 In Stores!!
First Limited Version: KSCL 1343-1344 / 1,500 YEN(tax incl.)
Normal Version: KSCL 1345 /,223 YEN(tax incl.)

"Hiyori Hime" which is written by Ringo Shiina will be the opening theme song for the FUJI TV anime "Genji Sennenki" starting January009.
Like the past singles, the First Limited Version will include a DVD with footage from the "PUFFY TOUR 2007 honeysweeper" final concert.
Songs included are "Kuchibiru Motion", "Hataraku Otoko", "Jet Keisatsu", "Asia no Junshin"!

LKK

2009-01-03, 22:10

and Takahiro Sakurai (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=5039) as Hikaru Genji himself.
And therein, you have one of the main reasons I decided to watch this show. :heh:

Vexx

2009-01-03, 22:19

Looking forward to a classic adaptation that reflects the source material.... (-=-)

lixuelai

2009-01-03, 22:24

Dunno how this will turn out. I am guessing this will cover Genji's life not the stuff in the end about his "son". Pretty ironic too how that turned out. What is this considered as? Im gonna guess seinen but it might be shoujou or josei too depending how they spin it.

ThoHell

2009-01-03, 22:51

Don't exactly know how I'm suppose to feel about this one. I enjoyed the book and hope that they don't butcher it, actually I'm not really sure if they should make this into a series. It's just a playboy's life...... and kind of ridiculous....

Mystique

2009-01-04, 00:35

A book i didn't quite get to reading in 2008 (someone had requested the only copy that i had for a while)
Just short of 1200 pages iirc, it was my bookworm challenge for the year (and still is)
so to adapt this into anime, it'd have to be fairly long (52 ep series?) or cut incredibly.

But I'm all for a literary classic, especially one as reknown as this. :D
Watching this space.....

edit:
fuji TV 0.45 on thursday mornings.
Not appreciating the time slot there people... -.-

SeijiSensei

2009-01-04, 02:41

Assuming, of course, that a fansub group picks it up.

Thanks for starting this thread, Nerroth.

Since Genji is a Noitamina show, I'd expect to see at least one complete sub, maybe two. The fansubwiki (http://www.fansubwiki.com/Who_Subs_What:_WINTER_2008) page lists "Yoroshiku?, Strawberry Mint Subs" for Genj. Yoroshiku subbed the recent Noitamina series Antique Bakery. Strawberry Mint has subbed quite a few shows (http://www.animesuki.com/group.php/611.html), but no Noitamina shows so far.

Noitamina shows never fail for fansubbers' attention. Over the past couple of years we've seen a number of complete, high-quality subs by transitory groups for shows like Hataraki Man (Arienai) and Mononoke (a lovely one-time (http://www.animesuki.com/group.php/562.html) performance by "Black Sheep"). We've also seen Noitamina subs from established groups like Shinsen (Mononoke) and from promising newcomers like BSS (Moyashimon, Nodame Cantabile Paris-Hen). I wouldn't be surprised to see any of these groups take on Genji.

Takahiro Sakurai (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=5039) as Hikaru Genji himself.

And therein, you have one of the main reasons I decided to watch this show. :heh:

Me, too. As soon as I saw Sakurai's name I knew I'd watch Genji. Anyone reading this who hasn't heard his performance as the Apothecary in Mononoke has missed one of the great star turns in recent Japanese voice acting.

It looks like Puffy AmiYumi (http://genji-anime.com/music.html) are doing the OP (http://www.puffyamiyumi.com/)...

Given that my original exposure to Puffy AmiYumi consisted of their somewhat underwhelming American cartoon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-T59L4n-Jo) show, I was surprised to enjoy their performances of the OPs for both Hataraki Man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lja-_x6cZaE) and Oh! Edo Rocket (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP1ZBEcFwPc).

Looking forward to a classic adaptation that reflects the source material.... (-=-)

Originally the producers planned on animating a currently-popular manga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Genji_(manga)) adaptation of Genji, but Dezaki threw it out and decided to write his own screenplay (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-11-10/dezaki-the-tale-of-genji-anime-to-debut-in-january) based more closely on "Murasaki's" novel. He's 65 (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=65), by the way, even older than us, Vexx! He also shares my birthday, though I'll admit he looks way cooler than me except for the cigarette.

Im gonna guess seinen but it might be shoujou or josei too depending how they spin it.

The manga was considered shoujo. Most significant novels transcend simple genres so I wouldn't want to characterize the original work with marketing categories. If the producers were asked this question, I'd expect an emphasis on the historical romance aspect of the story targeting a "josei" audience (http://www.takinganimeseriously.com/images/saimono-audience.png) like that for Saiunkoku Monogatari.

It's just a playboy's life...... and kind of ridiculous....

A book i didn't quite get to reading in 2008 (someone had requested the only copy that i had for a while)
Just short of 1200 pages iirc, it was my bookworm challenge for the year (and still is)

I've been reading off and on the Seidensticker translation and abridgment which is some 350 pages of English text. The older Waley version is 750 pages of considerably smaller text. Even reading the shorter version I've only gotten through perhaps a third of the book; I've just finished the chapter in which Genji meets Murasaki. I'd like to finish the novel before watching the anime, but I'll have to put my mind to it. It hasn't really grabbed me so far, but much of that has to do with the style of diction used throughout.

So far the most remarkable thing about the novel is the use of poetry in normal speech by all the characters. If they're not speaking poetically or quoting a poem verbatim, they're making an oblique reference to a poem that everyone is expected to recognize. Since I've been led to believe that "Murasaki's" novel authentically reflects Imperial life in Japan, I'm in awe of the notion that people routinely spoke this way, even if they came from the luxurious classes. Genji may be a playboy, but he speaks poetically and with thought and insight. I think he's a deeper character than the word "playboy" might suggest, but I haven't read enough yet to know for sure. He certainly seems single-mindedly intent on seduction at times.

I don't know if Dezaki can convey this style of speech in an anime. If the scripts do have the characters speaking in an archaic and more poetic style, it could make this a much more difficult show to subtitle.

so to adapt this into anime, it'd have to be fairly long (52 ep series?) or cut incredibly.

I just skimmed ahead in my copy and Murasaki's and Fujitsubo's names appear infrequently in the last hundred or more pages. Since these two women and Genji are the main anime characters, I'm guessing it will be cut incredibly. It will be, after all, only eleven episodes.

Shinndou

2009-01-04, 06:26

Now this is funny, I've just started reading this book under suggestion/orders ( :heh: ) of my Japanese Literature teacher at university. I suppose it'll be interesting to see how faithful this anime adaptation will be to the original classic.

Westlo

2009-01-04, 06:59

Always interesting in what Noitamina is showing so I'll be checking this out, like the vas casted for the leads too.

LKK

2009-01-04, 11:07

Me, too. As soon as I saw Sakurai's name I knew I'd watch Genji. Anyone reading this who hasn't heard his performance as the Apothecary in Mononoke has missed one of the great star turns in recent Japanese voice acting.
I was already considering Genji before the cast list was announced, but I wasn't 100% sure I'd try it. When I learned that Sakurai was voicing the lead, the show moved from my Might Try category to my Will Watch list.

tigerwoods

2009-01-04, 16:32

I'm really looking forward to this noitaminA series along with Kemono no Souja, I expect good things.

@Shinndou: Genji Monogatari has been on my "to be read soon" list for ages, I hope to find enough time to read it :heh:

TinyRedLeaf

2009-01-05, 11:12

So far the most remarkable thing about the novel is the use of poetry in normal speech by all the characters. If they're not speaking poetically or quoting a poem verbatim, they're making an oblique reference to a poem that everyone is expected to recognize. Since I've been led to believe that "Murasaki's" novel authentically reflects Imperial life in Japan, I'm in awe of the notion that people routinely spoke this way, even if they came from the luxurious classes.

I'm not convinced that everyone in London spoke in blank verse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blank_verse) during the era of Shakespeare, even if that's the way his actors conversed on stage. :p

While the aristocracy of Heian Japan were very likely highly educated and artistically refined, I wouldn't know the extent to which the novel accurately represents that the way they actually spoke. More likely than not, the author probably used a generous dose of artistic licence.

Time and motivation willing, I hope to get around to this series eventually. Looks like something right up my alley.

kujoe

2009-01-05, 16:43

While the aristocracy of Heian Japan were very likely highly educated and artistically refined, I wouldn't know the extent to which the novel accurately represents that the way they actually spoke. More likely than not, the author probably used a generous dose of artistic licence.
I have no idea how prevalent such manner of speech was, but it was mostly the norm within the context of courting.

A nobleman would express his intentions to meet the lady via verse, and she would respond in kind. A dialogue of poems would ensue before the lord is refused or allowed inside the estate of the lady to meet face to face. Some paintings from the Heian era focus on this slice of life as their subject.

I, too, am looking forward to this adaptation though I'm not that familiar with the source material, save for a passing discussion that was lectured to me long ago.

Shadow Kira01

2009-01-06, 02:07

The animation looks good, don't know about the anime itself though..

Irkalla

2009-01-06, 07:01

Probably the only show besides Viper's Creed that cough my fancy in this winter season, since I'm such a nazi about art. Also looks really like a classic, which I'm a big sucker for, so it's definitely on my watch list. Seiuyu cast doesn't look bad either.

LKK

2009-01-06, 13:09

Fuji Television has posted a 14-second commercial (http://www.fujitv.co.jp/flvplayer/flvplayerL.html?anime/genji/090115genji_hd) for Genji. It shows some of the animation but has no voices, just music. It's low quality though, so it's hard to judge the animation quality.

Shiroth

2009-01-06, 16:21

A very awesome member of this forum (Katapan) told me a little while back that my two favorite composers, S.E.N.S. will be doing the musical score for this series. I've longed for new material by them in the anime department since xxxHolic - Kei, so that news made me extremely happy, and look forward to this show even more then i originally was.

Fuji Television has posted a 14-second commercial (http://www.fujitv.co.jp/flvplayer/flvplayerL.html?anime/genji/090115genji_hd) for Genji. It shows some of the animation but has no voices, just music. It's low quality though, so it's hard to judge the animation quality.
That's S.E.N.S. alright. <3

& together with that animation, just beautiful. I can't wait for this show to start airing.

Dop

2009-01-13, 07:58

noitaminA series are always 'must-watch' for me, as I've never seen one I didn't like and seen many I've loved, so I'm looking forward to this one.

Fevvers

2009-01-13, 18:47

Although I'm not a fan of the novel (couldn't believe how I suffered through that, really, what with that asshat Genji) and neither am I a big fan of the director's older known works (but then again, the melodrama probably has more to do with the source material more than anything else), noitamina hasn't really let me down that much oh wait... there's Library Wars and very few anime have truly grab me for this season. Ride Back, Kemono no Souja Erin, and that's it. Well, at least this gives me time to finish my tons of backlogged series for last season.

Nerroth

2009-01-15, 12:13

Yay, it's the 15th!

Looking forward to the first feedback... and for word on subs, too.

SeijiSensei

2009-01-15, 13:20

Took a quick look around this morning and didn't see any raws yet, either. Not that I'd understand them, just want to see how it looks.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-01-15, 18:09

I've seen ep1 and liked it. Very beautiful. Rather old-fashioned looking. Definite visual echoes of Oniisama-e, for me. The pace and sound are like a reverie, but not too still. Lots happened.

I like what they have done with the adaptation, so far, moving things around and leaving things out, as they have to do to condense a thousand pages into an anime series. So far, they seem to be picking the right things to include -- and even to add -- so I do get a sense of the characters and what's going on. But then again, I'm very familiar with the novel.

Endou Aya, who will be Murasaki, is entrancing as the narrator. Tamagawa Sakiko as Fujitsubo is brilliantly elegant, though maybe she sounds a bit old for Fujitsubo at the time shown. And Kobayashi Yumiko gives the pre-teen Genji a fresh feel.

I loved how intimate with the seasons the backgrounds and sound made me feel. Very appropriate to the Heian sensibility. The ED was nice, but the OP will take some getting used to. Odd choice.

ThoHell

2009-01-15, 19:12

Oh dear me....playboy at an early age. Ok, don't think this is going to be a watchable series for me after watching ep 1.

Nerroth

2009-01-15, 19:53

Ugh, that OP sucks - totally out of place.

(I'm trying one of the raws on YT now - well, as much as they seem to actually have there.)

Celestial Kitsune

2009-01-15, 21:22

Screenshots for Episode 1 (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2009/01/15/genji-monogatari-sennenki-episode-1/) :)

I'll be blogging about this anime regularly :)

LKK

2009-01-15, 22:38

The OP song ... :twitch: :twitch: ... I didn't mind the visuals but the song ... :twitch: ... where did that come from?? It didn't fit with any of the rest of the show.

If the first episode is any indication, I might as well forget about watching the raws and just wait for the subs. I understood so very, very little of what happened.

Exias

2009-01-16, 07:55

Shiroth

2009-01-16, 08:02

The OP song ... :twitch: :twitch: ... I didn't mind the visuals but the song ... :twitch: ... where did that come from?? It didn't fit with any of the rest of the show.
Yeah the OP song is rather random. I don't mind it, but wow it does not fit.

First episode was very stunning, though i'm not going to lie, about 95% of my attention was directed at the score by S.E.N.S, and probably will be everytime i watch this. I may as well just watch it raw for that reason, 'cause i also understand rather little without subs.

ChibiGoku

2009-01-16, 08:25

I... have a feeling the opening is probably going to change, animation wise. As it is, TMS generally focuses more on the episode's content than the opening and ending animation. So, hopefully it'll change. Because, honestly, as it stands... That song is SERIOUSLY out of place, especially with the visuals...

It's not a bad song, just it's really out of place as it currently stands.

Anyways, having skimmed over the general episode, the animation is simply a beautiful piece of work. Tezuka Productions and TMS Entertainment doing the animation is a rather interesting combination. I'll actually get a better opinion when I actually watch the episode. I'm actually waiting for subs on this one, simply because this seems rather dialogue heavy...

Voitan

2009-01-16, 18:33

Oh dear me....playboy at an early age. Ok, don't think this is going to be a watchable series for me after watching ep 1.

Heeeeei-yayuh!

Watching, Genji's Playboy Hijinks. (clearly what the title should be for the show)

SeijiSensei

2009-01-16, 19:51

Well, I thought the show was lovely in both its artwork and background score. Like others I found the Puffy OP pretty inconsistent with the show itself, thus continuing a trend of late seen also in shows like Real Drive and Kurozuka. I recognized the ED artist Atari Kosuke (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=67407) right away as the fellow who did the ED for Natsume Yuujinchou; his voice is pretty distinctive. The OP/ED backgrounds were a bit hard to fathom for me; are they supposed to be scrolls?

I probably missed it in the novel, or it hasn't come up so far in what I've read, but I thought there was a much larger age gap between Genji and Fujitsubo than simply five years. Like Kaoru Chujo, I thought Tamagawa sounded much too old to be a fourteen-year-old, but presumably that will matter less as both characters mature. Kobayashi Himiko does another of her excellent boy characterizations as Hikaru, and Sugita Tomokazu never disappoints, here in the role of To no Chujo. We only heard a brief line of two from Sakurai at the end of the episode; I look forward to the rest of his performance.

In the sub there were a couple of rather strange transitions in the audio, one during the sponsor billboard, one at the midpoint and one at the end of the ED. I'm guessing they were commercials that weren't quite fully removed? I wonder, though, because the segment in the ED sounded a bit like Puffy. (Edit: Please don't take this as a criticism of the sub group in any way. I thought they did a great job especially given how quickly they turned this around. Thanks to Exias and his compatriots for their efforts on our behalf.)

Genji is quite the precocious little fellow though, isn't he?

SageGaiGar

2009-01-16, 20:11

I noticed the audio issue was well, still to whoever is subbing this, your work is appreciated. Even with the 'glitch', it was still understandable.

While I liked the OP for Kurozuka and Real Drive, I hated this one. It just didn't fit at all. I was more than happy with the ED, thought it sounded a little familiar. ;). I'll probably keep an eye on this series, even if Genji is an asshat. (Quite a bold kid as well)

Nerroth

2009-01-16, 20:58

I see the thread has been moved - but who is carrying the series?

rose-wisteria

2009-01-16, 21:30

I watched it a few hours ago and man, I loved the first episode. I haven't read the book but thanks to this first episode, I probably will. XD Good show so far. ^.^ And of course, I agree with everyone about the ED being great and the OP... er... not so much.

LKK

2009-01-16, 22:00

I recognized the ED artist Atari Kosuke (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=67407) right away as the fellow who did the ED for Natsume Yuujinchou; his voice is pretty distinctive.
I thought that was the same vocalist! You're right. His singing style is very distinctive.

The OP/ED backgrounds were a bit hard to fathom for me; are they supposed to be scrolls?
I'm not sure what the OP/ED visuals were supposed to be, but that's a good guess.

White Manju Bun

2009-01-16, 22:22

Takahiro Sakurai (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=5039) as Hikaru Genji himself.

Im in :)

Also if S.E.N.S is doing the music, Im doubly in.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-01-16, 22:54

1. I think five years is about right for the gap between Genji's and Fujitsubo's ages. I've also found one site (http://www.inform.umd.edu/CMLT/cmltgrad/JSchaub/CMLT270SU98/finalprojects/pin-fang/) that specifically says so. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Genji)has full info on the whole original story, on its main page and on the pages for each character, if you don't mind spoilers.

2. On rewatching with the sub, I thought I saw a number of places where the anime deviated somewhat from the book. In general, the anime seems to make explicit what is implicit in the book. Like Genji kissing Fujitsubo, for instance. (The whole relationship of the pre-teen Genji with Fujitsubo is covered in less than half a page of the novel's thousand pages, and there is no line about getting stronger and protecting her.)

I was a little put off by the changes, since the novel's restraint is one of its great virtues. But even if the anime is less delicate than the book, it is more delicate than most anime. They have to find a way of telling the story visually and in modern terms. This is, after all, a novel written a full thousand years ago, in a society that might seem utterly weird to us today.

3. I don't see Genji as "an asshat," at all. But I can understand how he might seem that way to us today. The anime has to find a way of getting us into that ancient society so that we see characters more the way they would have been perceived then. Genji was a high aristocrat with royal blood (though not considered a "royal") and recognized as the most beautiful and talented person in Japan.

It was normal in those days for men of rank to be fairly promiscuous. In the terms of the novel -- which was written by a woman -- Genji was extremely honorable with his many women, never abandoning anyone we see in the novel, even after he ceased spending much time with them. That's just how it was then.

4. The background music is sublime.

5. rose-wisteria, if you are at all inclined to read the book, do. It is one of my very favorite books. Not only is it great in itself, but some people consider it the first real novel in the history of the world -- written five centuries before the first European novel. But it is so much more modern in feeling than most old books. The best translation is in Penguin, by Royall Tyler. One warning: the first chapter is not as good as what follows. Lady Murasaki started writing the story chapter by chapter, and passed manuscript copies to other ladies at court as she went on.

jennkei

2009-01-17, 00:00

Celestial Kitsune beat me to blogging on it, but even though I could only come up with 20 screenshots (http://booksanime.today.com/2009/01/17/genji-monogatari-sennenki-1-forbidden-love-2/) for it (quite low ._.), I did like it. I've read Art of Seduction, and while I can bish him for being a casanova (yet another 'asshat'? :P), it's probably different when you're actually involved -- and a lot of the women do enjoy their time with him. It's what seducers do. ^^

Agreement with Seji-sensei and a few others who recognised Kousuke Atari's voice. ^^ And that the OP is rather o.O.

Exias

2009-01-17, 05:59

There were indeed issues with sync on the 480p version, shows why you shouldn't sub at 2AM. The 720p version that is being released shortly won't have any of these issues. :)

arkxkra

2009-01-17, 08:30

erm, just watch ep1, although I don't like the drawing style (personal favor), but it quite beautiful as well (in some sense).

So this tale was actually talking about the Genji love story? I found it quite interest (dunno why), so will continue watching.

Shiroth

2009-01-17, 09:44

Also if S.E.N.S is doing the music, Im doubly in.
Remember all the beautiful pieces from xxxHolic, like Deja view, Moderato and Lost Memory? It's pieces like that which are used all the time in this show. It's the same with a lot of J-Drama scores they do scores for. So glad they've been given the chance to do a similar work in Japanese animation.

Anyway, make sure you let me know what you think of the score. :)

I would have loved to hear Atari Kosuke sing the OP for this series, though saying that i don't believe he's worked on an OP yet. Shame.

Also regarding the original book, i plan to check it out, though i'm not sure if i'll wait until the series has finished.

LKK

2009-01-17, 10:52

Quick question from the sub. How would "Hikaru-kimi-sama" translate into English? Would it translate as "my lord Hikaru"?

Celestial Kitsune

2009-01-17, 14:14

The best translation is in Penguin, by Royall Tyler.

Yes, it is an excellent translation, but the choice will depend on what a reader wants from the book. I covered major Genji translations to English in this post (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/how-to-choose-english-translation-of-the-tale-of-genji/).

Kaoru Chujo

2009-01-17, 14:41

Yes, it is an excellent translation, but the choice will depend on what a reader wants from the book. I covered major Genji translations to English in this post (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/how-to-choose-english-translation-of-the-tale-of-genji/).That's an excellent post you link to. I love Waley's prose. I always felt Seidensticker (whom you prefer) sounded a bit awkward. Tyler has Seidensticker's accuracy with prose closer in quality to Waley, for me. Maybe I have a British bias (Waley was English, Seidensticker is/was American, Tyler is in Australia). The tiny bit of the original I've been able to read is amazing, with huge long sentences meandering on and on so beautifully. Kind of like the most beautiful English 17th-18th-century prose.

@LKK -- "My Lord Hikaru" for "Hikaru Kimi-sama" sounds reasonable to me, but the "Hikaru" is not part of his name, it is a kind of nickname: "Shining." So: "My Shining Lord," "My Brilliant Lord"? I'm not sure if the "Hikaru Kimi-sama" is in the original or is something they made up. He is often referred to a "Hikaru Genji," "the Shining (member of the) Gen clan." For anyone who doesn't know, Genji was the Emperor's son, but because his mother didn't have relatives who could protect him politically as Emperor, his father made him a commoner, making him part of the Gen or Minamoto clan.

achirist

2009-01-17, 15:50

I've read the novel several times (both waley and tyler translations,) and I really adored it. As for this anime - I don't like the way Genji and To No Chujo's adult faces are drawn. Also, this episode struck me as rather odd - I'm not sure who the woman he was with in the beginning was (Yugao? there seemed to be something along the lines of evening flower implied - but that is one of my favorite stories in the book, so I hope they could show it in full.) I fully agree that the opening was bad and out of place.

I don't think that this strange elaboration on child-Genji and Fujitsubo's friendship was that bad, though I don't prefer it. It must be stressed that the Emporer had many wives or consorts, all with their own children, so it definitely isn't likely that any woman the emperor took on would presume themselves to be in the position Genji's mother. As such, there wasn't anything like that in the novel.

I wonder, is Exinet the only group subbing this series?

Cal-Reflector

2009-01-17, 17:43

I own a Chinese and an English translation of Tales of Genji, but haven't got around to reading them. I was surprised to learn however that Genji is the archtypical original Harem Lead, and that his harem includes a wide, wide, wide range.

Damn.

Edit: Without having read the novel first, I like anime Genji pretty well so far. Nice music, pretty effects, and a unique art style.

Dagger

2009-01-17, 19:44

Unlike modern harem leads, however, he's a skilled seducer and doesn't run screaming from women. :p

StoneCloud

2009-01-17, 23:01

Who Subs this anime?

WanderingKnight

2009-01-17, 23:07

There were indeed issues with sync on the 480p version, shows why you shouldn't sub at 2AM. The 720p version that is being released shortly won't have any of these issues.

Quick question: I watched the 480p version. I could notice some issues with syncing at the beginning of the episode. Does it account for the extreme continuity issues throughout the rest of the episode? (I didn't notice any syncing issues after the first minute or so).

Seriously, I think there's something definitely wrong with this anime, somewhere. I just want to make sure it's the encoding, because if it's not, I'm going to be quite disappointed at a Noitamina production making some quite silly amateur directing mistakes.

Don't get me wrong, I like artsy stuff as the next elitist fan, but some things were completely wrong. And I'm even giving them a free pass on the substandard quality of the animation and the extreme amount of flashy tricks they pulled to avoid drawing extra frames.

Kirarakim

2009-01-17, 23:16

Nerroth

2009-01-17, 23:34

Just saw ep 1 on Veoh - very sad, and I noted the hint at Heian-kyo's strict customs.

(The Kyoto cho (http://www.east-asia-architecture.org/ieaau2/kyoto-cho.html) had its origins in square areas laid out in old Heian-kyo - patterned after Xi'an - which were walled, and from which commoners were mostly forbidden to enter or leave. It was the onset of the shogunate which saw these walls begin to crumble, since the focus of power had shifted to Kamakura and to the military rulers, and the strict societal rules keeping the order were less vigorously enforced.)

Oh, and I hope a sub group will do avi releases - my Archos portable media player doesn't care for mkv files...

White Manju Bun

2009-01-18, 00:29

Oh man....TakaSaku and Tomokazu Sugita in the same anime...I almost didnt make it through the first 4 mins due to I kept hitting rewind to hear them talking :heh:

Ill have to get used to the animation style but the seiyuu and music is enough to keep me interested for now :)

glyph

2009-01-18, 02:03

@LKK -- "My Lord Hikaru" for "Hikaru Kimi-sama" sounds reasonable to me, but the "Hikaru" is not part of his name, it is a kind of nickname: "Shining." So: "My Shining Lord," "My Brilliant Lord"? I'm not sure if the "Hikaru Kimi-sama" is in the original or is something they made up. He is often referred to a "Hikaru Genji," "the Shining (member of the) Gen clan." For anyone who doesn't know, Genji was the Emperor's son, but because his mother didn't have relatives who could protect him politically as Emperor, his father made him a commoner, making him part of the Gen or Minamoto clan.
"O Shining One?"

In fact, are not the names most (all?) of the characters are addressed by nicknames , epithets, or titles and not given names? Like Genji's mother Kiritsubo-no-koi is the "Concubine of the Paulownia Chamber", Fujitsubo-no-nyobo "Lady of the Wisteria Chamber"?

Hmm, looking good so far, but what a godsawful OP.

Thingle

2009-01-18, 02:10

Hikaru's a freaking stud. But it seems that he's fussing over the wrong woman.

Quick question: I watched the 480p version. I could notice some issues with syncing at the beginning of the episode. Does it account for the extreme continuity issues throughout the rest of the episode? (I didn't notice any syncing issues after the first minute or so).

Seriously, I think there's something definitely wrong with this anime, somewhere. I just want to make sure it's the encoding, because if it's not, I'm going to be quite disappointed at a Noitamina production making some quite silly amateur directing mistakes.

Don't get me wrong, I like artsy stuff as the next elitist fan, but some things were completely wrong. And I'm even giving them a free pass on the substandard quality of the animation and the extreme amount of flashy tricks they pulled to avoid drawing extra frames.

Yea there's something definitely wrong with the audio. I even thought I heard commercial break sounds somewhere in the episode. But then again, it's free so just enjoy :)

Mistressofburden

2009-01-18, 07:14

Who Subs this anime?

Live-eviL
Yoroshiku(not sure :S)
Strawberry Mint Subs
Nire-subs
Exinet Fansubs

Irkalla

2009-01-18, 16:37

Watched the first ep, didn't expect the shojo kinda art, but it's still better than the most moe kinda art out there right now. Also the seiyus are :love:

Exias

2009-01-18, 17:06

Quick question: I watched the 480p version. I could notice some issues with syncing at the beginning of the episode. Does it account for the extreme continuity issues throughout the rest of the episode? (I didn't notice any syncing issues after the first minute or so).

Seriously, I think there's something definitely wrong with this anime, somewhere. I just want to make sure it's the encoding, because if it's not, I'm going to be quite disappointed at a Noitamina production making some quite silly amateur directing mistakes.

Don't get me wrong, I like artsy stuff as the next elitist fan, but some things were completely wrong. And I'm even giving them a free pass on the substandard quality of the animation and the extreme amount of flashy tricks they pulled to avoid drawing extra frames.

There are sporadic issues as a result of the source raw and encode, which were cleared up in the 720p version. All around, it's worth deleting the 480p and getting the other version; as it also has minor script fixes.

Cal-Reflector

2009-01-19, 13:24

http://intersections.anu.edu.au/issue7/tyler.html

"Gender Relations in the Tales of Genji."

The essay provides a concise and accessible lesson on the background of society and characters in the Tales of Genji. It was certainly informative to me, and I feel as though I better understand the times and customs as a result.

I was surprised to learn that Tales of Genji is cause for shit storms in anime forums and academic circles alike; in brief, people either regard Genji as a considerate and tragic lover or a chauvinistic rapist. The author of the article above, as far as I can tell, tries to analyze the events of Genji based on the norms of Lady Murasaki's time.

Significantly, the author makes the point that a lady of good standing and upbringing could not by her own initiative accept a gentleman's sexual advances, since such a liaison carries many political consequences. Usually, the decision could only be made by direction from a superior authority, usually the lady's father. A problem that arises repeatedly in Genji is when the lady's father is dead, and the lady is reluctant or unable to make the decision whether to accept or not, even though she may be romantically inclined towards the suitor.

Nerroth

2009-01-19, 18:45

Some of the issues raised on that page are troubling - most notably on the kind of twisted rules in a society which would lead to such a result.

Cal-Reflector

2009-01-19, 19:45

Some of the issues raised on that page are troubling - most notably on the kind of twisted rules in a society which would lead to such a result.

I think the important point was: It was a different time, with different norms of morality, so judging behavior back then through a modern lens is problematic. Male-centered societies are certainly not unique to 11th (?) century Japan, so the most fruitful way to enjoy the story may be to accept the narrator's POV as representative of what might be considered good or unacceptable back then; nor does Murasaki fail to mention Genji's failings as a husband and human.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-01-20, 01:49

http://intersections.anu.edu.au/issue7/tyler.html "Gender Relations in the Tales of Genji."....Fascinating essay by the most recent great translator of the Genji. Thanks for the link. He doesn't put the opposition's points in much detail, but he makes his own in a fair way, it seems to me. As someone who loves this story, I'd like to say:

One, part of the joy of reading the Genji is to find oneself in such a different society. The only way to get the maximum benefit of that is to try to see things as people in those days would have seen them.

Two, I agree with the idea that the real center of the tale is the women in it, not Genji. He is the thread of the tale, but it is the stories of the women he encounters that give the tale its depth and flavour.

Three, using a word like "rape" to describe events in the book is useful for modern political activity, but violates the integrity of this ancient story. It is political commentary rather than literary criticism. Fair enough, but only one way of looking at things.

Four, Genji does coerce at least a couple of women, but in what seems to me and to Tyler to be a fairly humane way, under the circumstances of the time. The results for the women end up being pretty good, as they would not be either today or probably even in real life back then, as opposed to in this romantic tale. The mythical Genji never abandons a woman he has been with even once, and almost always seems to make their lives better than they might otherwise have been.

Five, from the point of view of pure popular literature and fantasy enjoyment, the amazing romantic encounters are certainly an important element of the appeal of the book, both to men and to women, despite or even because of the coercion. We don't just enjoy things that show society as it should be or people acting as we think they should. Literature is not social propaganda, but a voyage into the unconscious.

I'd also like to say that the first ten or so chapters of the novel contain most of the sexual encounters, but although they are the most famous chapters, the novel just gets better after that, and the last ten chapters, which are like a separate novel, are the best, dealing with the young lord Kaoru and the sisters at Uji (who are known as the "bridge princesses," or hashihime).

By the way, Cal-Reflector, the novel was written at the very end of the tenth century and beginning of the eleventh, so I think you could say it represents tenth century society. I'm not sure, but I think the title of the anime Genji Monogatari Sennenki means "Tale of Genji Thousandth Anniversary."

I visited the supposed tomb of the author, Lady Murasaki, in Kyoto a couple of years ago. It is just a small mound and a gravestone down a little alleyway opposite the Palace. You can go there and burn a stick of incense to her. Great experience.

stormy001_M1A2

2009-01-20, 02:05

I wonder if the anime going to animate the scene where Genji have butt sex with a boy out of frustration because he unable to screw the boy's sister.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-01-20, 02:51

I wonder if the anime going to animate the scene where Genji have butt sex with a boy out of frustration because he unable to screw the boy's sister.It could. In the novel, it just says he had him stay the night with him. Nothing is ever described graphically of any sexual encounter in the novel. We have no idea -- except human intuition -- of what they did beyond just being with each other. As you know, Alexander the Great, Plato, Socrates...all the great ancient Greeks took that kind of thing for granted, too. Other times, other mores. Don't try this at home, lol.

Cal-Reflector

2009-01-20, 03:33

Seeing how the anime has already elaborated so much on events barely referred to in the novel, I'm going to treat this show as it is on its own, ala Romeo and Juliet and Gankutsuou by Gonzo.

Therefore, my interest in the story so far is: Hot damn, boy. What're you going to do now??

jennkei

2009-01-20, 03:39

Did I hear someone mention yaoi akshun?! XD

Don't worry, I'm past that phase. >.> Hmmm. At the end of ep one Genji's just starting out, eh...so many women to seduce, so little time. -wry-

Shiroth

2009-01-20, 06:35

Thanks a lot for the novel and maybe anime spoiler, stormy001_M1A2.

Secca

2009-01-20, 11:11

I got to say this is very delicious. Like Kaoru Chujo said it's a tale from a different society entirely. Before watching this show, you just have to close your eyes, forget about everything you know, get rid of other thoughts. Then get yourself absorbed in to the play. I stil blushing from watching the first episode. >_<

ps. Pretty please put spoiler tag for the novels?

Exias

2009-01-20, 11:34

Thanks a lot for the novel and maybe anime spoiler, stormy001_M1A2.

It is an ancient novel, I don't think that constitutes a spoiler. Here's a spoiler from the bible. Jesus died.

Shiroth

2009-01-20, 11:35

It is an ancient novel, I don't think that constitutes a spoiler. Here's a spoiler from the bible. Jesus died.
It's still a spoiler from the novel (and one that could appear in the adaptation). Rules are spoilers from the original source go in spoiler tags, or not posted at all.

Nerroth

2009-01-20, 18:39

I think the important point was: It was a different time, with different norms of morality, so judging behavior back then through a modern lens is problematic. Male-centered societies are certainly not unique to 11th (?) century Japan, so the most fruitful way to enjoy the story may be to accept the narrator's POV as representative of what might be considered good or unacceptable back then; nor does Murasaki fail to mention Genji's failings as a husband and human.

There are some ideas and concepts which are not tied to one particular era or culture, but which have re-surfaced time and again across human history - and which we should not simply cast aside or compartmentalise because it happened in such-and-such a place at this-or-that a time.

No society operates in a vacuum - and indeed, the man who was already having people build temples in his name across the parts of the islands not still under Ainu control would likely have had as much to say against such rigid societal stratification and problematic cultural norms as he did when speaking against the caste system which was all too prominent in the Ganges plain of his time... and which is, even now, the subject of fierce debate in modern times.

So long as our histories, cultural ideas and various heritages play a role in our development as a species, it's as fair to use a critical eye on the past as it is on the present - as we try to figure out what kind of world we want to see in the future.

(It was odd timing to read that post at the time I was watching Michael Wood's The Story of India (http://www.pbs.org/thestoryofindia/) documentary, at a point where he was discussing the theological debates held under the Mughal emperor Akbar, the efforts at bridging the gulf between Islam and Hinduism under Dara, and the long-reaching reactionary attitude of Aurangzeb - and he made the point "Can we judge the past by the standards of the 21st century? Should we judge our time by theirs?")

Three, using a word like "rape" to describe events in the book is useful for modern political activity, but violates the integrity of this ancient story. It is political commentary rather than literary criticism. Fair enough, but only one way of looking at things.

Whether it happened five minutes or five millennia ago, rape is still rape.

(As an aside, in the book accompanying that documentary, there was a mention of the mosque at Ayodhia, torn down by a mob of militant Hindus in 1992 - as a communal act of supposed retribution, since it was said that the mosque was built on the ancient birthplace of Ram, the deified hero of the Ramayana. Only, as it happens, the whole thing was a mass delusion - the archaeological team which was, ironically, funded by a Hindu nationalist government to 'prove the truth of the myth' instead proved that there had been no significant structure on the site prior to the medieval era. Quite sobering to think that the kind of tales and legends that might to some be isolated from the modern world can have - or rather, what happens when the worst, rather than the best, of our ancestors is drawn from for succour.)

As you know, Alexander the Great, Plato, Socrates...all the great ancient Greeks took that kind of thing for granted, too.

And the main thing that many Greeks of his time were bothered with was not that Hephaestion was a man - it was that he and Alexander were around the same age...

WanderingKnight

2009-01-21, 06:58

As you know, Alexander the Great, Plato, Socrates...all the great ancient Greeks took that kind of thing for granted, too.

The fact that they're famous doesn't make them either great nor right.

But that's ignoring the fact that they considered women only worthy of attention when it came to procreation. That's why later in life all the philosophers, who could afford a longer lifespan due to the fact that they didn't have to work their asses off, turned their attention towards men.

Ancient Greek society was probably several times more misogynistic than Japan ever was.

SuperKnuckles

2009-01-21, 08:54

I heard the same thing from a college lecture too, and the professor had the same idea as the students. No matter the era they were in, forcing themselves sexually was just a messed up thing, normally to get that all important attention. We see the same thing with a lot of romance novels nowadays as well. lots of wedlock situations, lots of rape, incest, all that stuff. When kings and leaders took it for granted, it's because they were in absolute seats of power. You call them for it and you're getting beheaded. And of course, that's not the same as the homosexual stuff that occurred consensually. That's a different issue altogether.

Also, all the crazy sexual adventures within family reminds me of many ancient mythologies. I guess the overall idea is the same. Put weird family connections and yet weirder morality on top. That basically is Genji in a nutshell.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-01-21, 20:17

Nice discussion. Just wait until we actually have more of the real story to discuss, lol....Also, all the crazy sexual adventures within family reminds me of many ancient mythologies. I guess the overall idea is the same. Put weird family connections and yet weirder morality on top. That basically is Genji in a nutshell.That is Genji leaving out all the important bits, lol. I just come back to the necessity of trying to see a narrative from another time in the context of its own time. If you don't, then it is impossible to see the characters as anything other than caricatures. You just can't understand them or their stories. I think they and their stories are worth knowing and taking seriously on their own terms.

And Nerroth, rape is still rape only if it's rape. The piece by Tyler wraps the events in a number of important subtleties. In some sense, a lot of marriage in the past was not much different from rape. Understanding the psychology of women in such a harrowing society is one of the interesting things about the Genji.

And WanderingKnight, the great ancient Greeks were, in my opinion, right enough for their time. Sure that society was ridiculously misogynistic, but not moreso than too many others, even today. It would be hard to go through history and find many societies that weren't. I was just trying to say that moral standards vary from society to society, and most can make a case for saying they are following the rule of not doing to others what they wouldn't want done to them, which is the only universal standard of morality I can think of.

Genji's society was as patriarchal as any other, but women in those days created Japanese literature. Men all wrote serious prose and poetry in Chinese, the way people in medieval Europe wrote in Latin. Almost all of that stuff is forgotten, but the diaries in Japanese of several women, and this novel, still remain among the greatest classics of Japanese literature. As do the short poems written in Japanese by men and women as a sort of social exchange, in poetry contests, or like text messages after a date.

In any case, morality is important, but we can't see every story as some kind of sermon, and reject all stories that contain events of which we would disapprove if they happened in our own time. I imagine our ideas will seem quaint or brutal in a few centuries from now, too.

Apologies for any novel spoilers in previous posts. I will try to restrain myself.

Ascaloth

2009-01-21, 21:12

The fact that they're famous doesn't make them either great nor right.

Interesting. Please define "right". :eyebrow:

Nerroth

2009-01-21, 21:17

The ancient Greeks were notably stricter with their women than many of their neighbours - a point they, and the Romans, made pains to point out (and disparage) when they saw different gender relations among the likes of, for example, the Gauls and ancient Britons.

(Unfortunately, certain of their former neighbours, such as the Carthaginians, have lost much of their own voice, in terms of telling us about their own cultures - thanks to a certain group's 'activities'...)

And in the case of Heian-era Japan, again, the culture of the time (if there really was just one culture - one could argue that the city was rather different depending on whether you were stuck in one of those closed-off cho or not, even without referring to the various regional groups which would eventually shift the economic weight to what would become Osaka, the political prominence to Kamakura, and the demographic weight into a wider range of sites than had hitherto been the case) was neither static nor in isolation, not from its neighbours, nor from either its antecedents or its successors.

(There were Empresses in earlier times, and the first named leader in Yamataikoku in Chinese records was the priestess-queen Himiko - plus there is the matter of how the Ainu, who still held much of northern Honshu and Hokkaido at the time, did things.)

Ultimately, I would argue - again - that judging a work, any work, purely on the standards of the day is limited, as indeed would only referring to the present day as a contrast (although trying to plumb the highs and lows of human society over the last several thousand years is a lot for anyone to try and chew on...) but ultimately tie into certain concepts which could be argued to be common to all of humanity.

(While the example I made of Ayodhia was an extreme one, there are those who claim to look to certain eras and groups as paragons of virtue, which they would intend to see replicated in the present day - and we leave those kinds of questions unargued at our peril...)

Besides, it's not like we won't be judged in times to come - and how will they accept our failings and successes, and judge our place in the development of the species?

Leo_Otaku

2009-01-21, 23:41

0_0 oh god how can this not be an OVA XD I've got to see this.

Cinocard

2009-01-22, 00:12

You do know how illicit couples were treated back in those days, even if there were royal blood involved, right? What's with those "rape was acceptable" ?

You do know how Genji got in a rage after his third wife (what was her name again?) being raped, right? He realized it was punishment for what he did to his father (in fact his crime was even worse).

And you do know incest means putting oneself before one's father, and oneself before the emperor, were ultimate crimes, right?

Genji, himself, knew that he was wrong.

In some sense, a lot of marriage in the past was not much different from rape.

You said we shouldn't rely on modern ethic to view accent literature characters. With people in the past that kind of forced marriage wasn't rape. Rape was rape.

And even if he does love his women, and MOST OF THE TIME, the women also do love him and willing to be in an adventure, wrong is wrong, despite the motive. That said, there were also time he acts like animal.

Just admit it. I know, we all know, the higher a man is in society, the more fuck up his relationship gets. It's true for the past. It's true for today, and may be even for the far future. But rape and incest would never become a right thing. Rapers never are great. Unless someday having sex replaces a handshake.

SuperKnuckles

2009-01-22, 03:52

Nice discussion. Just wait until we actually have more of the real story to discuss, lol.That is Genji leaving out all the important bits, lol. I just come back to the necessity of trying to see a narrative from another time in the context of its own time. If you don't, then it is impossible to see the characters as anything other than caricatures. You just can't understand them or their stories. I think they and their stories are worth knowing and taking seriously on their own terms.

Yeah, I didn't argue that. But the crux of the Genji story is that he's basically a manwhore of utmost political status and of his own personal moral barometer. The story of politico-romantic morality surrounding him is the meat of the story no doubt.

Also, Japan was and still is very much a misogynistic society in many ways. Same can be said for most cultures that has ever existed. And of course, when the idea of ancient celebrities and politicians are concerned, they obviously have way more power than the typical peon of the times. It's still the same today, isn't it? The politicians and those in power have call-girl issues, athletes swap women on a daily basis, etc. While most of everyday people either don't even have a consistent sexual life and even less swap partners as easily as the high level socialites of society.

All that said, I would argue that humanity, even in modern society has NEVER achieved social equality between genders. Females are still marginalized a bit in some aspects. It keeps getting better at least in America, but the ideal is still ways to go. Not that it's some problem that can be easily solved, because of the deep rooted social norms we have.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-01-23, 01:06

Cal-Reflector

2009-01-23, 19:47

More great discussion, and many of the points made against mine I have to admit are just as reasonable, and certainly well-informed. I just hope people can enjoy the show.

And now we have a second episode, and I think I'm sold. I now realize more clearly that this is a complete retelling of the story, and not really an adaptation of the novel. So many scenes are added and changed, but so far they seem to me to clarify some of the relationships. Sugita Tomokazu and the script are making To no Chujo more real to me, with foreshadowing of his later strength. I felt even more sorry for Lady Aoi. And actually showing the meeting between Genji and Lady Rokujo worked for me. So did the way they represented his welcomed coercion. But I'm not making that argument right now, just enjoying the characters.The beauty of the look is still working for me. So is the beauty of the music. I even started enjoying the OP, realizing it had some depth to it, despite the oddness of the match with this show. I checked who wrote it: Shiina Ringo (YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REcd4DgM1T0&feature=related)), the outstanding pop/jazz writer/performer. Naruhodo. And I found myself liking the ED even more.

One indication of my enjoyment: I was surprised when we came to the end of the episode. I had no idea we were that far along.

Watched the raws without waiting for subs, so much of the finer points of dialogue escaped me. However:

I wonder how old Genji is at this point? He was 12 when he was married to the daughter of his benefactor, who was sixteen at the time. I'm undecided about how Aoi feels towards Genji at this point; does she dislike him? Is she playing hard to get? Is she a tsundere?

So this means Aoi is 1 year younger than Fujitsubou, and 2 years younger that Rokujou.

It appears as if the focus of this episode, the learned and prideful Lady Rokujou, has dangerously underestimated Genji and has let him get inside her head after their initial meeting. Putting in layman's terms: If someone made a dating game out of Tales of Genji, the Rokujou route seems like it would be one of the shorter ones, even though it appears hard to attain at first.

Hmmm... a Tales of Genji dating game. I'm sure someone has published one before.

jennkei

2009-01-24, 16:18

I didn't really get this ep. (Think I was watching it too early in the morning. ._.) I still like how it looks, but unfortunately I haven't reached enlightenment over liking the OP either. XD Ah well. Nonetheless, if you're after some screenshots of the ep (http://booksanime.today.com/2009/01/24/genji-monogatgari-sennenki-2-of-strange-women/)...

I think I'll just watch the anime and enjoy it as it is for a bit.

Celestial Kitsune

2009-01-24, 18:00

It seems Genji was a terrible person... However, I am enjoying this anime due to wonderful art and music :)

Episode 2 Screenshots (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/genji-monogatari-sennenki-episode-2/).

Kaoru Chujo

2009-01-26, 01:35

It seems Genji was a terrible person....If that is what the anime is conveying, then it isn't working. Genji was not seen as a terrible person by the author. He slept around, but that was not a great sin for an aristocrat of that time. And the author really never expresses any criticism of him in the novel, that I can recall.His bursting in on Lady Rokujo was supposed to be under the sway of his passionate love of beauty of all kinds: visual, literary, personal. And her passion for him was at least as great as his for her. One of the hallmarks of the aristocracy in Heian Japan was their highly developed aesthetic sense and love of beauty. I think the importance of beauty is a theme of the novel, too.

One thing I do wonder about is how they are showing Genji's age. I think he cannot be older than about 17 here, since he is supposed to meet Murasaki when he is 18 and she is 11, and his relationship with Lady Rokujo has been going for a long time by that point. But he looks older to me in the anime.

The anime says Aoi was cold to Genji because she expected to be the wife of an emperor, but her father, the Minister of the Left (almost like Prime Minister), decided it was better to marry her to Genji, whom his father loved so much, and who might become a power in the state in ways that an Emperor never could, since Emperors were controlled by their ministers. In those days, high aristocrats controlled the government by marrying their daughters to future emperors and becoming his top ministers.

I myself think Aoi was cold to Genji because he was so much younger than her, and neither much of a mate nor of a playmate, at first. Then she just got hardened in her initial attitude as he became a playboy, which he did in part because of her coolness. And so it goes. It was apparently perfectly normal for an aristocratic wife to continue living with her parents even after marriage. It was also normal for high-ranking men to have several wives, of varying degrees of status.

I also think we are seeing a real person in Aoi, powerless under the sway of her likes and dislikes and disappointments. Like the kind of low-level mental illness we all suffer from, to some extent. I guess I'm revealing that I think tsuntsun is a form of mental illness, lol. To see her happily using the comb later, however, just broke my heart. She would like to love him, but she doesn't know how.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-01-30, 00:51

Watching ep3, I thought how perfectly Yugao was being played. Then I saw in the end credits that she was being played by Koshimizu Ami (http://hashihime.blogspot.com/search/label/Koshimizu_Ami). I had never heard Ami, who is one of my favorite and most respected seiyuus, do that voice before. A voice goddess, for sure. That last "sore kara" was amazing.

Why she doesn't seem to be thought of as one of the very top seiyuus is beyond me. She has a huge range, comic talent, and the ability to sell deep emotion. That last is the biggest thing for me. Hoping not to be insulting, I might say that she also proves my observation that the best actors are not necessarily the smartest people around. Ami is a lovely person, but does not appear to be a rocket scientist.Loved the way all the characters were played, with the possible exception of Genji, lol. There is a formality about the presentation that is working for me. The scene with Aoi was powerful. I did not like Rokujo's little evil laugh, because I think she did the deed unconsciously. But that is letting the source infect my enjoyment of the anime, and anyway the rest of the process worked for me.Discussion here and on the excellent Iwa ni Hana (http://www.iwanihana.info/) blog has convinced me to revise my opinion of how Genji is being portrayed. I still think he is not a "bad person." But there is no doubt that his bee-among-the-flowers romantic self-indulgence has negative results throughout his life. Nowhere in the book is he exactly criticized for his follies, but the results of them are shown.

More gorgeous animation and backgrounds. Fireflies. Stars. Water flowing at night. This is not a perfect show, but I await it eagerly every week.

LKK

2009-01-30, 10:41

Are episodes 2 and 3 as dialogue intensive as episode 1 was? If so, I'll have to wait for the subs despite my desire to see the show. Watching episode 1 raw was little more than looking a moving art book for me. (I didn't even realize at the time that I was watching a flashback or that the child was Genji.) Unfortunately, I don't have the spare hard drive space to spend on moving art books at the moment.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-01-30, 16:07

Are episodes 2 and 3 as dialogue intensive as episode 1 was...?I'm not sure "dialogue-heavy" coves it, but the story is being told so telegraphically that every scrap of info is necessary to understanding what is going on. And preferably intimate knowledge of the novel. A sub makes it at least somewhat easier to understand. I'm still struggling to be sure I can tell Fujitsubo from Rokujo from Aoi. But I'm loving every minute of my confusion.

Nerroth

2009-01-30, 17:51

It's kind of a shame - not least since I started the thread in the first place - but I kind of feel that the show is starting to slip away from me.

I really don't feel comfortable watching the raws, yet without subs in avi format (or online) I'm not able to keep up all that well (I've only seen the first ep, still)...

...to say nothing of the sense of disillusionment I've been steadily feeling build up the more the source material is being discussed.

(I wanted to make a point of not reading the novel before I watched this, so I could encounter the story from this perspective first - but I guess I can't help but get sucked in by spoilers and arguments over certain issues.)

So, right now, I'm at a bit of a loss...

jennkei

2009-01-30, 20:19

Nerroth: I'm sorry to hear that! :( Maybe take a break from this board and catch up later? :)

Personally, I'm probably one of the few who can't get the book. -wry- What little I've read doesn't seem very much like the anime to me, but I'd only just about started on it.

I don't have trouble telling people apart...Rokujou is the one who looks psycho, Fujitsubo is the pretty one. ^^ Haha! Aoi -- haven't really seen Aoi much...we'll see.

Nerroth

2009-01-30, 20:47

Well, if I took a break from AS, I'd miss all the Gundam goodness, so...

jennkei

2009-01-30, 21:06

Haha, I meant just this thread in particular. XD I found Genji somewhat hard to understand at times even with (admittedly, Chinese, which I'm a bit rusty at) subs -- was watching it late at night once and nothing went in at all. ._.

Nerroth

2009-01-30, 21:10

I see - but I wonder, if the two were merged, would it be Gendam, or Gunji?

The adventures of the celestial being, indeed...

Celestial Kitsune

2009-02-01, 16:36

If that is what the anime is conveying, then it isn't working. Genji was not seen as a terrible person by the author. He slept around, but that was not a great sin for an aristocrat of that time. And the author really never expresses any criticism of him in the novel, that I can recall.His bursting in on Lady Rokujo was supposed to be under the sway of his passionate love of beauty of all kinds: visual, literary, personal. And her passion for him was at least as great as his for her. One of the hallmarks of the aristocracy in Heian Japan was their highly developed aesthetic sense and love of beauty. I think the importance of beauty is a theme of the novel, too.

One thing I do wonder about is how they are showing Genji's age. I think he cannot be older than about 17 here, since he is supposed to meet Murasaki when he is 18 and she is 11, and his relationship with Lady Rokujo has been going for a long time by that point. But he looks older to me in the anime.

The anime says Aoi was cold to Genji because she expected to be the wife of an emperor, but her father, the Minister of the Left (almost like Prime Minister), decided it was better to marry her to Genji, whom his father loved so much, and who might become a power in the state in ways that an Emperor never could, since Emperors were controlled by their ministers. In those days, high aristocrats controlled the government by marrying their daughters to future emperors and becoming his top ministers.

I myself think Aoi was cold to Genji because he was so much younger than her, and neither much of a mate nor of a playmate, at first. Then she just got hardened in her initial attitude as he became a playboy, which he did in part because of her coolness. And so it goes. It was apparently perfectly normal for an aristocratic wife to continue living with her parents even after marriage. It was also normal for high-ranking men to have several wives, of varying degrees of status.

I also think we are seeing a real person in Aoi, powerless under the sway of her likes and dislikes and disappointments. Like the kind of low-level mental illness we all suffer from, to some extent. I guess I'm revealing that I think tsuntsun is a form of mental illness, lol. To see her happily using the comb later, however, just broke my heart. She would like to love him, but she doesn't know how.

Well, my impression of Genji is based on some events from the novel that people mentioned in this thread. I don't think that anime portrays Genji in a very negative light. I'll form my final opinion after I read the novel myself.

Thank you for the detailed description of the events :)

Yes, Genji does look older than 18 in anime.

Mental disorders cause clinically significant distress and impairment - I don't think tsuntsun would qualify, but I see what you mean.

Episode 3 Screenshots (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/genji-monogatari-sennenki-episode-3/). It was a sad episode :(

This woman means serious business! :P

http://celestialkitsune.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/screenshots_67347.jpg

stormy001_M1A2

2009-02-02, 10:14

Thanks a lot for the novel and maybe anime spoiler, stormy001_M1A2.

No problems! :D

Can always read the novel. So no more spoiler!

Shiroth

2009-02-02, 10:58

No problems! :D

Can always read the novel. So no more spoiler!
It's sarcasm. No spoilers from the novel in the anime thread please.

stormy001_M1A2

2009-02-02, 11:13

Dude, u can even get it free text version online. Just read them.

glyph

2009-02-02, 12:46

That was supposed to be the Rokujou lady's yandere astral projection what killed poor Yugao, yes?

Kaoru Chujo

2009-02-02, 14:39

That was supposed to be the Rokujou lady's yandere astral projection what killed poor Yugao, yes?Yes.But I'm not sure she was doing it intentionally, or realized what she had done. I think (not sure) that to her it just seemed like a dream.

Watching it again, I really think that Hirata Eriko's turn in this episode as Aoi, who as Celestial Kitsune says "means serious business," was outstanding.

SeijiSensei

2009-02-06, 14:57

A discussion about the Tale of Genji aired on National Public Radio's On Point (http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2009/02/the-tale-of-genji/) this morning. The guests were a professor of Japanese Literature and Asian Studies at Pomona College, and a "novelist and cultural anthropologist" from Berkeley who has written an historical novel about the life of Murasaki Shikibu. You can listen to the program by following that link.

Boy, I sure wish I could watch another episode or two of Genji with fansubs so I could rejoin the discussion here. I generally avoid threads when the subs lag behind the releases to avoid spoilage. Plus it's hard to contribute when you're behind the raw watchers. I'll drop by again when another sub appears.

lixuelai

2009-02-06, 15:00

There is not much to spoil for Genji. Most people who is watching it probably knows the story already. I suggest reading the book ;)

SeijiSensei

2009-02-06, 15:04

I have been reading the book, but my sense is that the anime has its own trajectory.

I also doubt that "most people" watching it outside Japan know the story already.

Celestial Kitsune

2009-02-07, 15:29

Episode 4 Screenshots (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2009/02/07/genji-monogatari-sennenki-episode-4/).

Beautiful episode, terrible events...

lixuelai

2009-02-07, 19:56

I have been reading the book, but my sense is that the anime has its own trajectory.

I also doubt that "most people" watching it outside Japan know the story already.

I don't know about you but during high school it was a tiny part of the world history curriculum at my school. The teacher basically gave a quick synopsis and said it is the oldest novel and moved on. Anyway Genji boils down not to the story (which frankly is not much) but to the poetry and general mood throughout the book.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-02-08, 15:02

I don't know about you but during high school it was a tiny part of the world history curriculum at my school. The teacher basically gave a quick synopsis and said it is the oldest novel and moved on. Anyway Genji boils down not to the story (which frankly is not much) but to the poetry and general mood throughout the book.You had a good high school. I disagree about the story, but it is certainly not a normal neat novel plot. Episodic, but the episodes all contribute to an overall trajectory. Knowing the story beforehand isn't hampering my enjoyment, anyway.

Episode four makes it clear that they are telling the same story as the novel, but changing some of the scenes and even the events. Making things a bit more direct and clear, it seems to me. I'm not complaining, That's probably necessary for this short anime retelling.

For instance, I thought they did the events of ep4 extremely well.Murasaki's voiceover about having no idea at that time of Genji's future significance to her worked beautifully, for me. And his invasion of Fujitsubo's room was a lovely mix of things. Her remembering his childish kiss was eery and wonderful.

Genji's attraction to older women is connected to his losing his mother and also to being brought up by this elder sister/stepmother. And his attraction to Murasaki is connected to her resemblance to Fujitsubo.

Fujitsubo's attraction to him is possibly connected to her marriage to the old emperor, whom she likes and respects, but may not love in that way. Genji started with her as a little child, but grew up before her eyes into a potential object of romantic affection.

achirist

2009-02-08, 16:36

Genji boils down not to the story (which frankly is not much) but to the poetry and general mood throughout the book.

I agree, and that is what drew me in - the beauty, sensitivity, and ambience of the story - not the plot so much (and as a side note, I absolutely hate the second part of the book, the 'Ujai'? chapters that follow post-genji characters, and I beleive it wasn't written by the same person.)

But sigh, I have nothing to say about these weeks of episodes because there is no translation.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-02-08, 17:26

I agree, and that is what drew me in - the beauty, sensitivity, and ambience of the story - not the plot so much (and as a side note, I absolutely hate the second part of the book, the 'Ujai'? chapters that follow post-genji characters, and I believe it wasn't written by the same person.)....I agree about "beauty, sensitivity, and ambience." And I agree that the Uji chapters (the final ten) were probably not written by the same person (possibly by her daughter), but they are the chapters I love the most, personally, even though Genji does not appear in them at all. They are like a separate little novel, with its own romantic, psychological, and religious themes, and a somewhat tighter plot than the main part of the novel.

Uji (http://www.taleofgenji.org/uji.html) 宇治 is a town a few miles south of Kyoto. There is a famous bridge over the Uji River there. There is also a famous old water-control system. And some Fujiwaras had a country estate there, and built one of the most beautiful little buildings in the world, the Byoodoo-in (http://www.taleofgenji.org/byodo-in.html).

For anyone who is interested, this is a good site (http://www.taleofgenji.org/) about the novel and its world.

SeijiSensei

2009-02-14, 12:04

I know it's generally bad form to bitch about subs, but really, are we ever going to see any more episodes of Genji? My earlier optimism about how all Noitamina shows eventually get fansubbed is beginning to fade. We got off to a good start with two excellent versions of episode one, but it's been over a month since either was released.

I'm used to watching less-popular series that often have extended delays so I haven't given up hope. Still if someone has a release of episode two in the works, I'd love to hear about it, even if we may not see the final product for some while yet.

Celestial Kitsune

2009-02-14, 22:30

Episode 5 Screenshots (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/genji-monogatari-sennenki-episode-5/).

Grv

2009-02-17, 03:11

SeijiSensei I can't speak for anyone else but we are still working on Genji, slowly. I've been caught up with a lot of work recently so haven't been able to coach things along but we do have 2 eps translated and we're working on all the various bits and pieces - just might take a while to release as checking may take a little while to get started.

SeijiSensei

2009-02-17, 09:20

That's great news, Grv! Good luck balancing all these projects when a certain kitty reappears on the scene in April. Not to mention real life!

As I said, take your time; we'll be waiting.

yononaka

2009-02-20, 16:36

Ep. 6.

“Matsu onna. Matsu onna. Matsu onna. Matsu onna. Matsu onna. Matsu onna. Matsu onna. Matsu onna. Demo, hitori gurai kuru onna. Matenai onna.”

Love that line, both its delivery and its social commentary. At first I didn't get where she was going with this long repetition, but when she finished the phrase, it was beautiful. (Indeed, someone with such attitudes would have been rumored to be a "shou-shou kawatta kata". :heh:)

Competes pretty well with Yuugao's "sore kara", and Fujitsubo's redefinition of "ikemasen"*, I think.

Should we assume it's Lady Murasaki we have to thank for introducing the ever-popular hentai verbal trope? :)
BTW, Kaoru Chujo, nice to read your always insightful commentary in a situation where the nature of the subject doesn't compel me to object to it. ;) Been thinking about helping you give this thread the "Simoun boost", but somehow I'm very posting-averse these days...

Celestial Kitsune

2009-02-21, 17:47

Episode 6 Screenshots (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2009/02/21/genji-monogatari-sennenki-episode-6/).

Dop

2009-02-21, 19:14

Grv: That's fantastic news, thanks. I've loved what I've seen of this and feared it might never get subbed. But if someone is working on it then I don't mind waiting.

archivisth

2009-02-25, 21:03

Grv: That's fantastic news, thanks. I've loved what I've seen of this and feared it might never get subbed. But if someone is working on it then I don't mind waiting.

Yoroshiku could really use a translation checker, because of the formality of the Japanese in the episodes.

Lilith

2009-02-27, 15:44

Thanks for using spoiler tags. I didn't read the novel, my only knowledge of this story is through the manga Gekka no Kimi (which I really like).

The artwork is lovely, the animation is great (loved the backgrounds) and the music is definitely something to look forward to the OST. I'm totally hyped about this series! :love:

I hope it's still being subbed. :heh:

SeijiSensei

2009-03-14, 08:05

Thank you, Live-eviL!

I admit it took me a bit of time to get used to the subtitle font, but that only lasted a few moments. Looking forward to episode two!

Dop

2009-03-14, 08:14

Thank you, Live-eviL!

Seconded! Oh yes.

I did like the way the translator(s) used an old-fashioned formal kind of phrasing in the translation, that really fitted, I think.

Shiroth

2009-03-14, 08:16

Thank you, Live-eviL!
Another thank you Live-Evil from me. I can't wait to progress with this series thanks to your help.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-03-27, 16:18

Just watched ep11 (final) raw. On the whole, I loved this show, particularly for the look and for the voice-acting. But especially in the final episode, I thought they didn't need to alter the plot as much as they did. But I thought they made a good choice of where to end.There is zero fighting in the entire novel, so I fail to see why they needed to introduce some on Genji's flight to Suma. Just seemed stupid to me.

I would have preferred it if they had kept more of the original plot regarding Genji-Murasaki, too, but I can understand why they made the change. To include the fact that he made love to her before she had any idea what was going on, and so that she was resentful of him for a while, would have been a strong addition, but probably is too complicated to include.This show is getting strong ratings: #10 in the top ten anime, tied with Keroro Sougun with a rating of 4.2% of the audience. It's by far the latest broadcast anime in the top ten. The other shows in the top ten are early evening or weekend morning family shows like Chibi Maruko-chan (1), Doraemon (2), Precure (4), Atashi no'chi (5), Major (6), Inazuma Eleven (7), Shugo Chara (8), Onegai My Melody (9). This show is on in the Noitamina slot, at a quarter to one in the morning this past week.

Celestial Kitsune

2009-03-29, 15:41

Episode 8 Screenshots (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/genji-monogatari-sennenki-episode-8/).
Episode 9 (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/genji-monogatari-sennenki-episode-9/).
Episode 10 (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/genji-monogatari-sennenki-episode-10/).
Episode 11 (End) and a brief review (http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/genji-monogatari-sennenki-episode-11-end/).

Shiroth

2009-04-01, 07:59

Thank you Live-Evil.

This show is breathtaking. You really don't need to be told that this is based on a novel to notice it --- just going by the dialogue that's presented. I just feel that the stunning visuals pull me into the same world we're seeing, and i never want to leave. It's such a shame it's taken this long for subs to appear, though at least now we who have waited are able to witness this adaptation for ourselves.

As expected in this episode, we see the player Genji show us how he works. Yet again with the beautiful dialogue. I'm glad i haven't read the original book yet, because i'm able to experience this show, with it's elegant visuals for the first time.

SuperKnuckles

2009-04-01, 08:31

I would have preferred it if they had kept more of the original plot regarding Genji-Murasaki, too, but I can understand why they made the change. To include the fact that he made love to her before she had any idea what was going on, and so that she was resentful of him for a while, would have been a strong addition, but probably is too complicated to include.[/spoiler]This show is getting strong ratings: #10 in the top ten anime, tied with Keroro Sougun with a rating of 4.2% of the audience. It's by far the latest broadcast anime in the top ten. The other shows in the top ten are early evening or weekend morning family shows like Chibi Maruko-chan (1), Doraemon (2), Precure (4), Atashi no'chi (5), Major (6), Inazuma Eleven (7), Shugo Chara (8), Onegai My Melody (9). This show is on in the Noitamina slot, at a quarter to one in the morning this past week.

The Noitamina thing really describes it perfectly. Some of the more palatable shows (as in being lighter, not being about a notorious adulterer like Genji) of that animation block used to do noticeably better. But it's still impressive.

And wow, Onegai My Melody hanging up near the top after all these years. Crazy (one of my favorite shows too, btw). :heh:

The more I watch the show, the more the animation style of the Tezuka studios comes through. Most noticeably, it looks basically identical in style to that latest Ultraviolet anime. No surprise due to character designer.

Sinestra

2009-04-01, 22:02

I just watched episodes 1 and 2 (thank you Live Evil) and i must say how breathtakingly stunning the artwork is. When i see a series like this it makes me remember why i started watching anime again kind of like reknewel. These period historic dramas are my favorite genres.

Listening to Genji speak is almost listening to someone speak in your dreams. He elegance as a man of higher stature is portrayed very well. Yet his sadness becomes so apparent once you peer into his eyes. He almost reminds me Romeo before his he met Juliette or perhaps maybe but only in the way he phrases certain things about the world but I also see traces of Hamlet in his as well.

The most powerful weapon in the world is the strength of words and Genji has more ammo than most to spare. If his good looks and manners were not enough the guy is one of smoothest talkers i have seen in a while. He can woo any women even the ones that can not be wooed. That last scene in episode 2 was perfect he knows how to wait for him move and it seems he can read people quite well. Game that gives up too fast is no fun to chase.

The dialog through out the series is catching and although my Japanese is not nearly good enough yet even i could tell that many of the phrases and words used were old many words not used in modern Japanese i wonder if the VA's had trouble with the dialog at all.

The visual just pull right in like you are living in this period. I believe this is suppose to be the Heian period someone correct me if im wrong. I cant wait for more and im willing to wait for quality subs. I have heard of the novel in passing but i never got around to attempting to read it this might be the time for me to do so.

achirist

2009-04-02, 14:53

The lake under the bridge of dreams has frozen over; there is a new episode!

Though this was sort of a 'prequel' to what we saw in the book regarding Genji and Rokujo's relationship (and otherwise regarding Genji's young life), it was extremely beautiful, and it encapsulates so much of what I felt eight years ago when reading the book for the first time. The moon reflected in water; over wind-shaken trees and inside the places in-between people. This was such a good way of bringing in the poetry of Genji, and I muchly prefer this over the first episode. I like how the episode also hinted at Lady Rokujo's mental instability.

It would be nice if they would show the sequence where Genji shows up to romance a young lady, but ends up spending the night with her brother instead.

SeijiSensei

2009-04-30, 09:54

Having watched the three subbed episodes now, one thing that seems missing in the anime adaptation so far is a sense of the depth of Genji's emotions. We see how the women he seduces become enthralled by his attentions, but we don't see Genji's own internal emotional struggles that Murasaki details in the novel. He seems more of a cad in the anime than in Murasaki's original portrayal.

It is strikingly beautiful to watch and is certainly the most erotic mainstream anime I've seen. Maybe we should check to see whether there's an uptick in Japan's birth rate a few months from now.

Shinkun

2009-04-30, 17:07

Keep watching. We get to see more of Genji's emotions and inner struggles in future episodes. I agree, though, that the novel does a better job of depicting it.

Dop

2009-05-03, 14:36

Nice one Aoi-Anime - up to episode 4 now! Wonderful stuff.

achirist

2009-05-03, 17:44

Thoughts on Episode 3:

I really don’t like the way they twist the relationships in The Tale of Genji into modern forms; these women did not react or say or feel these things in the book, and nor would they have historically. Polygamy was extremely common among the Imperial set in this period, and the people did not act during such ‘dates’ or ‘affairs’ the way people act today.

It was implied in the book that Lady Rokujo and Genji had grown apart quite a bit before the Yugao episode; so it seems almost as if the director is trying to drum up sympathy for Lady Rokujo’s murders, as opposed to Genji. Further, Lady Aio never said that, would never have spoken of such things to her brother, and didn’t know every single thing that Genji did. She rejected him early on, and would have known for a long time by that point that Genji went out and met people. I remember none of the women obsessing about their age and comparing themselves thereby; that certainly wasn’t Rokujo’s nor Aio’s motivations towards each other. Furthermore, if Lady Aio and To No Chujo really both knew about Yugao

Than there would have been a huge plot change, since To No Chujo was Yugao’s recent lover, and the father of her infant child, and he was looking for her.

Genji and the women did not lie in bed saying things like ‘I will love you forever, we will get married and go away from here,’ they made sparse poetic comments about crickets and the moon and sleeves. Yet of course, as we know, Genji did end up taking care of women he had very short affairs with in the past. Also, there was definitely more to Genji, more to his poetry and ambience than just having affairs.

Episode 4:

I rather enjoyed this, I felt they did the aftermath of Yugao well enough, though, again, they mixed up the order of events and made it seem like the context is all about the women.

achirist

2009-05-13, 16:16

Episode 5 is out now; I thought it was very beautiful, and sad. Thank you Aoi-anime!

Shinkun

2009-05-13, 16:29

You're welcome. :)

Kaoru Chujo

2009-05-13, 22:21

Thoughts on Episode 3: I really don’t like the way they twist the relationships in The Tale of Genji into modern forms; these women did not react or say or feel these things in the book, and nor would they have historically. Polygamy was extremely common among the Imperial set in this period, and the people did not act during such ‘dates’ or ‘affairs’ the way people act today.
It was implied in the book that Lady Rokujo and Genji had grown apart quite a bit before the Yugao episode; so it seems almost as if the director is trying to drum up sympathy for Lady Rokujo’s murders, as opposed to Genji. Further, Lady Aio never said that, would never have spoken of such things to her brother, and didn’t know every single thing that Genji did. She rejected him early on, and would have known for a long time by that point that Genji went out and met people. I remember none of the women obsessing about their age and comparing themselves thereby; that certainly wasn’t Rokujo’s nor Aio’s motivations towards each other. Furthermore, if Lady Aio and To No Chujo really both knew about Yugao Than there would have been a huge plot change, since To No Chujo was Yugao’s recent lover, and the father of her infant child, and he was looking for her. Genji and the women did not lie in bed saying things like ‘I will love you forever, we will get married and go away from here,’ they made sparse poetic comments about crickets and the moon and sleeves. Yet of course, as we know, Genji did end up taking care of women he had very short affairs with in the past. Also, there was definitely more to Genji, more to his poetry and ambience than just having affairs. This is all true, but I'm still happy they gave us a coherent version of part of the novel. They probably felt it would have been very hard to keep people's interest without some of these familiar modern (or at least post-Heian) tropes.

As for Lady Rokujo, I think it is a good thing to develop sympathy for her. She is a deep and human character, I think, and probably not an intentional murderer.

Now that we've had an eleven-episode Genji, how about a 52-episode version that comes closer to the original? Unfortunately, commercial realities make this extremely unlikely. And if it were done, it would be an even more denatured version made for "family viewing" on World Masterpiece Theatre.

Just maybe, they could do an anime of the last ten chapters, telling the story of Kaoru and Niou, the Uji sisters and Ukifune. Even if they wrote an extra chapter to give a different ending.

And let me add my thanks to Aoi. Now I have a good reason to watch the show again.

achirist

2009-05-14, 00:33

This is all true, but I'm still happy they gave us a coherent version of part of the novel. They probably felt it would have been very hard to keep people's interest without some of these familiar modern (or at least post-Heian) tropes.

As for Lady Rokujo, I think it is a good thing to develop sympathy for her. She is a deep and human character, I think, and probably not an intentional murderer.

Now that we've had an eleven-episode Genji, how about a 52-episode version that comes closer to the original? Unfortunately, commercial realities make this extremely unlikely. And if it were done, it would be an even more denatured version made for "family viewing" on World Masterpiece Theatre.

Just maybe, they could do an anime of the last ten chapters, telling the story of Kaoru and Niou, the Uji sisters and Ukifune. Even if they wrote an extra chapter to give a different ending.

And let me add my thanks to Aoi. Now I have a good reason to watch the show again.

I definitely think Lady Rokujo is a compelling character, and I remember that, even after Genji realized what she had done in the novel, he still was able to express compassion, coming to see her in what was one of my favorite scenes (she doesn't even seem to have a daughter in the anime; I hope they won't try to say the child is Genji's, too.) I just disagree with excessively 'siding with her' on the matter.

And yes, I've thought that (roughly - longer or shorter depending on the chapter) one episode per chapter would make a really good anime series. But perhaps that isn't practical, especially not in a way that artistically conveys the book. I could see a sequel being made to this anime based on the Uji chapters, which would certainly be more manageable, though I think it is much easier to hate, or even think of Niou as the 'villian' in that story than anything in Genji.

Shiroth

2009-05-14, 08:45

It's funny how my original plan was to wait for the subs to finish so i can marathon the series, though thanks to listening to the score at least once a day since it's release has finally made me decide against it. :heh:

Thanks Aoi, will check our your subs today.

achirist

2009-05-29, 16:50

Episode six is out; very beautiful and atmospheric, as always. I wondered how Murasaki was going to come in; I guess they decided to cut everything about her father, including the scene where he and Genji check each other out. Oborozukyo was interesting, and certainly not a passive girl; though I felt a little bit dissapointed that they couldn't mention how much the Kokodine consort hates Genj, has always along with her family hated Genji and his mother, and explained how the Kokodine consort, Genji's elder brother and the others are on the right, while Genji is on the left (not in modern political definitions, no), thus making it even more bitter. One of the themes of the novel was supposed to be the destructive power of hatred, symbolized by the Kokodine consort, Lady Rokujo, and others. I'm kind of afraid they are about to majorly break continuity in a much bigger way than they have so far.

I loved, loved, loved seeing the Dance of the Blue Waves, which is, along with Genji meeting Yugao, one of my favorite parts of the book, along with the lady from the village of falling flowers (because it is evocative, memorable) who of course won't make it into here. For a second I almost thought that Oborozukyo was going to be someone else; that girl who has a birthmark on her nose, but I guess she probably won't be in the show either. :heh:

SeijiSensei

2009-05-29, 22:48

I went back and reread the scene in episode six which occupies merely a page or so in the Waley translation. The anime appears to reverse the roles of the two characters. There's no suggestion that Oborozukyo tried to lure Genji to her chambers; in fact, it's suggested she didn't know who he was until after he had entered her room, and only then because she recognized his voice. Rather than the princess seducing Genji, Waley describes the encounter as one where "she was far too young and pliant to offer any serious resistance, [so] he soon got his own way with her." The anime does seem to portray the women as much more forward than does the novel, giving it that anachronistic feeling that achrist mentions a few posts above.

As achrist also observes, it would be hard to understand the depth of Kokiden's antipathy toward Genji just from what we've seen in the show so far. In the novel she's obsessed with insuring that her son succeeds the mikado and fears that Genji's much closer relationship with the emperor threatens her son's position. (The emperor resolves this by making Genji a commoner as we saw earlier in the series.) By the way, along with being the intended wife of the heir apparent, isn't Oborozukyo also his aunt?

The voice of the actress portraying Oborozukyo sounded very familiar to me, but she doesn't seem to be listed on the ANN page (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=10223) unless her character appears under a different name there. Any ideas?

Something always seems to be falling from the skies in this show, whether it be rain, snow or sakura petals. Will the remaining episodes skip over the dry summer months to show the falling leaves of autumn next?

One amusing little scene comes during the preview. While the womens' nipples are always carefully hidden from view with falling hair or wrapped arms, in this case our view is blocked by Genji's hand.

One thing I noticed when visiting the ANN page is how the recorded opinions on this show are so dichotomous. Granted there are only a dozen or so votes there, but people apparently either love this show or hate it.

One other question: Have we seen Aoi yet? Is Genji already married, or is that still to come?

Shinkun

2009-05-29, 23:12

Aoi has appeared in several episodes. They were married after Genji's donning of the trousers. The next episode focuses on her and is titled "Aoi no Ue".

I agree that it appears the roles were reversed with Genji and Oborozukiyo's encounter. In the novel, Genji enters her chambers and his way with her. When she is about to scream, he tells her something along the lines of "resistance is futile, I always get what I want."

SeijiSensei

2009-05-29, 23:21

Aoi has appeared in several episodes. They were married after Genji's donning of the trousers. The next episode focuses on her and is titled "Aoi no Ue".

I guess I missed that. Scanning the novel I realized he was married by the time he meets Murasaki. I know they don't have a close marriage (indeed Genji's long absences from Aoi's home is a major source of conflict), but it says something about the presentation (or my fading memory) that I didn't recall her presence in the story so far.

Shinkun

2009-05-29, 23:26

Must be the memory :). They clearly explain in episode two that the daughter of the minister of the left is chosen as his wife. I used the word betrothal in the translation which may have caused confusion. She later appears complaining to Tou no Chuujo about the rumors about Rokujo no miyasudokoro and in episode five she watches the snow with him and warms up a little to him.

Shiroth

2009-05-30, 03:36

One amusing little scene comes during the preview. While the womens' nipples are always carefully hidden from view with falling hair or wrapped arms, in this case our view is blocked by Genji's hand.
I know this isn't the kind of show that needs to show nipples, though it does make you wonder if they're shown in the DVD or not. :heh:

One thing I noticed when visiting the ANN page is how the recorded opinions on this show are so dichotomous. Granted there are only a dozen or so votes there, but people apparently either love this show or hate it.
That is basically the general reaction i've been seeing from people i've asked, though i'm lucky that a lot of them have already read the book. It's something i've been wanting to do for years, though never get around to it. At least when i do it now, i'll have a S.E.N.S. score to have on in the background.

achirist

2009-06-11, 15:07

Episode 7:

I had been afraid that they were going to skip over the carriage incident. I really loved the way they presented that moment – the pivotal humiliation, cruelty that Lady Rokujo was subjected to and which made her hate Lady Aoi so intensely. It was even more brutal than I had pictured it. But I think it is odd that they only presented Lady Rokujo as being hurt and sad about Genji in the aftermath--while when they first introduced her, they showed her as being more dark than vulnerable, and I would think that her concious self would also have shown a bit of rage. I was also pleased to see a depiction of Lady Rokujo going away with her daughter to Ise; a place I would certainly love to see animated...

I don’t really like the way they kept going on about ‘rumors’ in the capital in the series – too much is presented as common knowledge that would have been intensely obscure and private in the world of the book. It is certainly ridiculous that any random person on the street could have guessed why Lady Aoi was possessed – and I’m sure no one would have talked of it lightly, as they would have been horrified. But in any case, they wouldn’t have been able to imagine that someone who was alive could have carried out this act due to that particular slight – if they believed she was possessed, they would have thought it was for a more general kharmic reason. No one else knew—Genji alone discovered what was happening, and he lived with that horror by himself for the rest of his life.

The last scenes almost made it seem as if Lady Rokujo had done herself up in bizarre makeup and went to kill Lady Aio in person, and I don’t think they served much purpose; just having Lady Aoi die after delivering her baby would have been fine. It is kind of ironic, in terms of the book, that the character Murasaki is the one narrating this all, since

Lady Rokujo also kills Murasaki, though not for some time.

Shinkun

2009-06-11, 20:50

Regarding the rumors. I believe the people depicted in both the series and the book are not common citizens of the capital but the nobility and the people who surrounded them. It is my understanding the the aristocracy of the Heian period were quite the gossip-mongers. ^^

The malign spirit was more insistent, and Aoi was in great distress. Unpleasant rumors reached the Rokujo lady, to the effect that it might be her spirit or that of her father, the late minister.
-quote from the novel

News and rumors seemed to spread like wildfire.

achirist

2009-06-12, 15:36

Ah, I guess I just didn't remember that; and you probably are right about the people discussing the rumor. I see on watching the scenes a second time that while it shows what look like common people while the rumors are discussed, they aren't shown as the ones speaking, so the visuals probably just are showing the movement of the information from Lady Aio's to the women at Rokujo Haven.

SeijiSensei

2009-06-15, 18:50

MikaMiaka

2009-06-16, 06:02

I just go around to viewing the first two episodes of this title, and I must say that it's quite odd to be talking about this thousand year old tale on an anime internet forum. ^__^

Hmmm, what would Murasaki Shikibu think of this?

In any event, my first impressions:

1. The OP is in complete contrast to the show itself. It's rather bizarre -- the OP is full of white broad strokes against black background accompanied by an upbeat song. The show itself appears to be not be related at all to the OP.

2. I am finding it difficult to get behind such privileged characters. I don't know; the romantic feeling of the art is amazing, but somehow, such romance gets lost and seems forced within the show itself. I suppose, right now, I find it hard to care about the Prince, but perhaps my attitude would change if I see more episodes.

3. I love the Prince's seiyuu, but find the females' voices too tender and whiny. But somehow, these voices are the perfect reflection of the style of art, so I don't really know whether firmer female voices would be a good thing.

All in all, I'll stick with it and see where it goes just for the story itself.

achirist

2009-06-16, 15:54

I'm rather curious about Aoi's "possession." In the novel, I can't tell if Murasaki actually thinks this a plausible explanation for Aoi's death, or whether the explanation is offered as satire. The notion of possession seemed rather out of place to me in such an otherwise worldly tale. Perhaps this is just anachronistic projection on my part though; as a product of her times, the Lady Murasaki may well have believed that Aoi could have been possessed by the malign spirit of a spited lover.

Well, you also have to remember that the characters are quite religious--very wrapped up in the sort of mixture of Shinto and Buddhism that the aristocracy of that time and place were drawn to. It is a common pattern, for instance, in the novel for people to renounce the world and become buddhist nuns/monks towards the end of their lives (and even some very young people for quite superstitious reasons, such as one of the characters in the latter part of the book), so I think they really would have believed in spirits and kharma and possessions, at least to some extent. In any case, that Lady Rokujo's spirit went around killing women in the novel is something the author established as fact in her work--it is a work of creative fiction, after all, and we should remember that we see another spirit:

Genji's dead father appears as a ghost to help Genji out of his exile--first appearing to Genji as a benevolent form and then apparently being quite a bit more frightening when he visited Genji's older brother, then emporer.

achirist

2009-06-18, 16:13

After watching episode 8, I looked up the free Seidensteker version of the novel that is available online:

"The Sanjo~ mansion was almost deserted. Aoi was again seized with a strangling shortness of breath; and very soon after a messenger had been sent to court she was dead." So I guess she might have been pretty much alone when she died, some time after giving birth to her child; but she wasn't as recovered as she appeared in ep 7.

In any case, I didn't like episode 8 very much. The beginning part about Lady Rokujo having contracted a demon to into her service was not from the book at all, and I don't like it, either. I've also reread the chapter this episode was based on, to confirm how much better it was. The sagano shrine was very beautiful in the book; full of crickets and reeds and late-autumn flowers; it was not raining, and it is noted several times that the place was full of priests, young courtiers, and of course the Lady Rokujo's daughter; from what it says about their meeting on a veranda, I seriously doubt they had sex. They exchanged many beautiful poems, and talked all night; words definitely were necessary, and I don't like how this made it seem like it was all about sex. I don't know, the sex always looks sort of the same, and sometimes it is difficult to tell; for instance in the beginning of this episode it took me awhile to realize it was Aio via a flashback that he was with. I was also kind of creeped about by the preview for next weeks episode...

achirist

2009-07-05, 16:02

Episode 9 was so beautiful; from the scenes of more dancing and Genji's flute playing at the beginning, to the presentation of his sadness and loss. That multi-layered dream of Fujistubo's was so haunting, and it seems that it did happen--that they were together one last time before she took vows and departed... Her playing of the koto (I think that is what it was) reminded me of a later concert, on a moonlit night, in the mountains near the sea (something I guess won't be in this series.)

Shiroth

2009-07-05, 16:20

My favorite scenes in each episode always end up being dream related. It's there that the visuals show what they can do truly do, and i love it.

Can say that i am adoring this show more and more as each episode goes by, and truly thank aoi for still subbing it. Such an outstanding score by S.E.N.S (as i have said a number of times already). It's pretty much breathtaking how perfect each piece fits with the visuals. Actually the word breathtaking is what i'd used to sum up this show, if someone asked me.

Dop

2009-07-06, 12:05

i am adoring this show more and more as each episode goes by, and truly thank aoi for still subbing it.

Total agreement here, especially on the thanks to Aoi for the subs.

Sinestra

2009-07-06, 14:13

Shiroth

2009-07-06, 17:01

They arent kidding when they say bad things come in three's. I think this is the first time i truly felt sympathetic towards Genji. Three very important people in his life exit the stage and 2 of them were probably his most precious in all the world.
It's going to be very interesting to see how he will act in the next episode, as we head towards the end of the series.

Shiroth

2009-07-11, 15:45

Episode 10 was yet another fantastic episode. The kindness of Genji's Brother brought me to tears on a number of occasions during this episode, though it was hearing how Genji accepted his fate as a child. Such an outstanding scene. It worked so well after the dance scene.

Waiting for the last episode now is quite painful, though i do know that i must order the original novel, ready to read after i've finished the series. Thanks again Aoi for the sub.

achirist

2009-07-12, 15:53

Having read the novel made this episode a but of a killjoy for me; as I kept waiting for what happened in the book to occur here, and it didn't. I have no idea what is going to happen next episode...

Genji was immediately exiled in the novel, not for any mention of his possibly being the heir apparent's father (unlikely because the boy does become emperor) but because Genji's brother, as To No Chujo pointed out, was weak, and his family made much of the political decisions; so the Kuritsubo Consort was easily able to force the exile, even though the emporer didn't really want to do it that much. Further, I believe Murasaki was about 19 at the time, and Genji's de-facto wife. There was never any talk about Genji losing his property, so she was allowed to stay...the exile was a very beautiful period in the novel.

But yes, this episode was very beautiful, touching. The only real criticism I have of it as a stand-alone piece is that there wasn't so much continuity with the emotion of the last episode. Though I guess Genji's feeling of being resigned to anything that happens--complete loss, complete ruin, explains some fo that.

Shinkun

2009-07-12, 17:44

It was my understanding from the novel that the exile to Suma was self-imposed due to being stripped of rank and falling out of favor with the court. I may be wrong, it's been a couple years since I read the novel back in college.

achirist

2009-07-12, 19:21

That may be; it has been years since I read the novel as well (and I don't have access to the Tyler translation that I mainly read now), but I don't remember it that way, perhaps because of the other details--such as that the ghost of Genji's father appeared to pressure the emperor to let Genji return. It did seem like the end of this episode hinted at Genji voluntarily exiling himself, though.

Shinkun

2009-07-13, 19:12

Correction, in the novel, Genji contemplates a self-imposed exile to the shores of Suma, but in the end, it is the lady Kokiden who uses her father's influence to force him to go. My bad :-D

achirist

2009-07-16, 16:30

Correction, in the novel, Genji contemplates a self-imposed exile to the shores of Suma, but in the end, it is the lady Kokiden who uses her father's influence to force him to go. My bad :-D

Ah, good, I did remember correctly then.

Shiroth

2009-07-16, 16:32

Looking around, and i'm seeing that there's quite a large number of official translations out there, especially on amazon. Would anyone be able to recommend me one?

achirist

2009-07-16, 16:40

Shiroth

2009-07-16, 16:41

I definitely recommend the Royall Tyler translation; it is the most recent (based on newer scholarship), is not abridged, and I think the poetic language is really superior in sheer beauty to the Seidenstecker.
I take it that would be this one?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tale-Genji-Penguin-Classics/dp/014243714X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247780654&sr=1-1

Thanks a lot for the help.

Shinkun

2009-07-17, 00:36

Yeah, that's the one. Having checked out both versions myself, I would have to agree with Achirist. Royall-Tyler does an excellent job.

Shiroth

2009-07-20, 19:28

Last episode has been subbed. Thanks again aoi-anime!

I just finished the last episode, and i will say i'm in complete shock regarding the last few scenes. What a way to end the series. I just love it when they show a scene right at the end, and it changes your view completely on the whole story.

Will share more thoughts regarding the end, and this series once i have some much needed sleep.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-07-20, 23:55

As someone who loves the Genji and has read all three of the main translations, I have to say I agree that Royall Tyler's translation is the best.

The best prose is Arthur Waley's translation from the earlier part of the last century, but he guessed a bit and left things out. He was a member of the Bloomsbury group, with people like Virginia and Leonard Woolf and Lytton Strachey, not just a translator but a man of culture.

Seidensticker is okay, fairly accurate as far as I can judge, but the prose is nowhere near Waley and below Tyler, too. Seidensticker was/is a professor at the University of Michigan.

Tyler's is the newest and appears to be the most accurate, and I find it the most satisfying to read. The story just seems to come through for me. Some people prefer Seidensticker's translations of the many poems in the text, but I like Tyler's well enough. I think Tyler was/is a professor at the Australian National University.

And I'll add my thanks to aoi-anime, too -- as well as to Live-Evil, who seem to be carrying on.

Shiroth

2009-07-21, 04:02

Now that i've finished the anime, i shall pick up the book as soon as possible. I know of it's size, though i know i'm in for one hell of an experience with it. Also, i have the outstanding score by S.E.N.S that will join me as i read.

Dop

2009-07-21, 08:21

At last! Hurray for Aoi in picking up the baton where others had dropped it and completing the subs.
At some point I need to sit down and go through the whole series again.
Then read the book.

achirist

2009-07-21, 19:03

Yes, much thanks to Aoi-Anime for finishing the series!

Kaoru Chujo, I didn't realize that Waley was part of the bloomsbury group - that is interesting.

That scene at the end, showing Genji alone at Suma, staring into the wonderfully luminous, harsh waves is amazing. The dream at the beginning is also interesting, showing Genji's guilt, how he was unable to escape, break out of the things that had built up in his life.

I guess I still prefer the emotional message of the book in this time period, though; I prefer the older Murasaki of the book and how she never, never, never said 'oneesama' and had a more mature relationship with Genji, and more certain fears and failings about his going. But this was sweet, and perhaps interesting because (despite the fact that I thought I had seen them having sex in the sort of 'next episode preview' a while ago) this relationship remained chaste here; the only episode without any love-making.

Though Genji and To No Chujo knew how to fence, it shouldn't be exaggerated that they could take on twenty men at once. I really think their presenting of Lady Rokujo's carriage being turned over was very effective in it's brutality, but I think in this case it doesn't add very much (it wasn't in the book either), where it might have been more interesting to show Kokiden, smoldering with hatred, trying to arrange to have him killed.

All in all, this was an amazingly beautiful anime, showcasing much of the swaying trees, crickets, moonlit nights, opening flowers, poetic trysts, and pointed emotions that make the story so wondrous.

strategos

2009-07-23, 21:57

How good is this series/?

Shiroth

2009-07-24, 07:40

How good is this series/?
Personally i enjoyed it a lot, though it all depends what you're looking for in a show.

SuperKnuckles

2009-07-24, 07:46

As expected of the fabled 'first novel in the world', it doesn't even have a proper ending, nor a satisfying segue at that. :heh:

I guess it's a decent watch. Most definitely not for everyone, and these kinds of stories have since been retold in much more fascinating ways since.

Shiroth

2009-07-24, 07:47

As expected of the fabled 'first novel in the world', it doesn't even have a proper ending, nor a satisfying segue at that. :heh:
I found the ending to be as proper as they come. I'm used to endings where not everything is explained right at the end, and leave you with a "use your imagination as to what will happen from now on" type of ending.

It was a powerful ending, and if you ask me it was perfect for this show.

SuperKnuckles

2009-07-24, 08:17

If Genji wasn't such a hurricane of a character, then a peaceful ending really would make sense. I just don't see how he couldn't burn out or something crazy like him either killing someone or being killed wouldn't happen at the rate of him cycling through women like that. That said, it does befit the Japanese aesthetic I suppose. But I guess I'm on the critical side of the fence here, because for all the buildup, it was a bit disappointing that the full potential of the actual storytelling wasn't reached.

But then again, I had the same problems, or maybe even worse so for some Shakespearean plays too.

Kaoru Chujo

2009-07-24, 10:43

I thought the anime did a pretty good job of presenting the world and part of its aesthetic, but it did take some liberties with the novel, and of course got only part-way through the story (the novel in English is over a thousand pages long). It wasn't perfect, but I did enjoy it a lot.

The novel is a pretty unique work. I think it is psychologically and even technically more advanced than early novels in the West like Don Quijote or Tristram Shandy (which were written 500-750 years later). In the novel, some major events happen off-screen, and we only learn about them from the characters' reactions later.

I believe the novel blended the forms of traditional tales and court-ladies' diaries to create a form that is so much like a modern novel, with its psychological introspection and subtle consideration of relationships.

Lady Murasaki's own diary is pretty fascinating, even though we only have part of it. There are other even more fascinating diaries, too: the Pillow-Book of Sei Shonagon, Gossamer Diary (Kagero Nikki), Sarashina Diary (As I Crossed a Bridge of Dreams), etc.

As for Genji killing or being killed in his amorous wanderings, the first actually did happen in an indirect way. But this kind of invading women's bedrooms was not that uncommon among the upper classes in those days, apparently. And Genji ended up having more trouble with the political world than the world of pleasure.