PDA

View Full Version : Character discussion - Nina


Pages : [1] 2

Skyfall
2009-02-14, 15:52
The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Nina related.
To keep the discussion enjoyable for all Regios fans, please follow the guidelines below and stay on-topic!
http://f.imagehost.org/0651/Nina.jpg
Note: Please don't use this for the specific episode / chapter talk, there are other threads (http://forums.animesuki.com/forumdisplay.php?f=88) for that stuff.
100Thread Guidelines
No campaigning!
No "hate" or "xyz must die" posts. Discuss why you do or don't like characters without whining and whining or blatantly campaigning for your favorite.


Be polite to your fellow forum members.
Do not insult or harass other members for their likes and dislikes. Do not take it so seriously that you end up in an argument with another forum member because they express a fondness for a character you loathe. Discussion and good spirited banter is always welcome, but harassing people won't be tolerated.

Discuss, not Chat.
Please remember that AnimeSuki is a discussion forum, not a chat room, there is a difference. If you wish to chat, then please make use of our IRC channel (#animeuki (irc://irc.zirc.org/animesuki)) on ZiRC (http://www.zirc.org/).


Have fun, but post intelligently.
It's great to have fun, but please try your best to add substance to what you post and make your thoughts interesting for the generation of fans that will follow after you’re long gone and on to watching some other series.

Use spoiler tags!Spoilers are allowed, but they must be enclosed in spoiler tags clearly marked with a proper title. Failure to do this can result in a BAN.



Adding a Spoiler tag:

spoiler.gif
Just highlight your spoiler and click the button found
on the "Quick Reply" and "Reply to Thread" forms.
Make sure that you include a title for the spoiler!
Please use the Report button if you see any spoilers:

report.gif
Click the button found to the left of the post, just under the poster's avatar.
Using the Report button is anonymous and helps the Moderators
to locate and deal with problems quickly.
Posting prohibited spoilers may result in a ban.
Note: Reporting a post does not mean the poster will be banned instantly.
The Moderators will use bans if warnings are repeatedly ignored.

MrTerrorist
2009-02-14, 16:43
A brief description about this character.
Your typical hotheaded, honorable Blonde Squad Captain with a heart of gold and a tragic past.

Manji Midou
2009-02-14, 19:31
she needs to listen to others and think things through more often, if her character can overcome this bad part of her personality then she can most likely be the best female character of the series. lt's nice to see her try her hardest unlike a certain victimised someone, be it she's doing it for self glory or out of really wanting to help out others... it's always nice to have female characters like her.

zalem
2009-02-14, 20:12
A brief description about this character.
Your typical hotheaded, honorable Blonde Squad Captain with a heart of gold and a tragic past.

Yeah, that pretty much describes her. I have sort of mixed feelings about Nina. She could potentially be a character I really, really like. She is independent, strong and hard working. She is someone who will always push herself and try her hardest to improve herself. Someone who won't take being a damsel in distress. These are all qualities I love in female characters. But then she has that hot-headed thing going for her and tends to lack common sense sometimes. So those are points against her. I guess I need to wait and see where the writers take her character. It'll be interesting to see how they develop her.

Master Assassin
2009-02-15, 05:05
Nina Antalk.

In my opinion, somewhat fits the "Noble Samurai/Knight" in my head, with the difference being that she takes a casual approach when it comes to social terms.

But her past and why she wants to become strong and fight is what makes me put her in that stereotype I thought of inside my head.

willyvereb
2009-02-16, 10:27
She's the "typical" female knight character: Bound to honor, protects the weak, wants to be stronger and never retreats.
As "extra" she has a motherly side to children/electric fairies.
But as the story progresses her confidence in herself drasticaly drops cause Lay-Fon. Perhaps that and the attack of Filth-monsters inspires her to improve herself more.

SageGaiGar
2009-02-16, 12:15
It's almost like the more pressure she puts on herself to become 'stronger', the weaker she actually is.

Master Assassin
2009-02-16, 12:32
Guess she should buckle up and benefit from Layfon's power by training with him. :rolleyes:

And that would mean... heh. Heheheheh.

willyvereb
2009-02-16, 12:47
what kind of training you mean?:P
If she tries the same kind of training as Lay-Fon snce childhood maybe she become better...if she survivesXD
To the readers of the Light Novel: Nina will become stronger soon? Because it's somewhat boring where the only the hero can do something and the others just got in the way.

Master Assassin
2009-02-16, 13:04
what kind of training you mean?:P
If she tries the same kind of training as Lay-Fon snce childhood maybe she become better...if she survives XD

Well, might not be necessary that she goes the "Spartan training" like Layfon did, but with Layfon teaching the basics (on how he got the zomghaxpowaaa) she might be able to have an idea where to go on developing her abilities even further.

But Nina doesn't seem to be the kind who'll back down from that harsh training if it means to get stronger. :rolleyes:

I believe she will eventually get better (and so does everyone else). There'll be time in which Layfon is at an disadvantage going "solo mobbing" but when his team mates offer help, they themselves become all uberhax again :p

I'm keeping my fingers crossed about that.

willyvereb
2009-02-16, 13:16
i hope that...because i think Nina's last stand even tough she can't do anything was admirable...imagine that everything or nothing attitude with some power!
the next question is Harley: he claims to be Nina's childhood friend, but: It's stated that Nina's the promising chidren of a noble family and she escaped from there a long time ago...maybe Harley found her? Or she escaped with him?

Master Assassin
2009-02-16, 20:38
It's stated that Nina's the promising chidren of a noble family and she escaped from there a long time ago...maybe Harley found her? Or she escaped with him?

I guess Harley found her.

Voitan
2009-02-17, 00:32
To the readers of the Light Novel: Nina will become stronger soon? Because it's somewhat boring where the only the hero can do something and the others just got in the way.

The simple solution would be to temporarily cripple Layfon's power/health and drop the steaming load of trouble on the rest, as they realize "OH SNAP! HAX CHARACTER IS DOWN AND I'M RESPONSIBLE NOW!"

willyvereb
2009-02-17, 02:49
That's no good cuz currently the whole city's army can't take down a medium-grade Filth Monster without Lay-Fon....
It seems that Nina beins her extreme training...so much that she uses up almost all her Kei...I hope then Lay-fon volunteers to be Nina's mentor in training...

honeypie_0106
2009-02-17, 06:36
I don't like Nina's character, I think she is one dimensional, a far cry from Kallen. Her jelousy and stubborness is not really that sexy.

I guess you don't see characters like Kallen from CG that often. I thought I would get my fix of Kallen from Nina, but I maybe she's just a tomboy that offers superficial emotions to the story.

Why get mad on the guy that saves your ass? Because he didn't tell you he had this much power?

Sorry, just had to vent.

On a personal note, I don't think Layfon and Nina have any chemistry at all.

Master Assassin
2009-02-17, 06:48
That's no good cuz currently the whole city's army can't take down a medium-grade Filth Monster without Lay-Fon....
It seems that Nina beins her extreme training...so much that she uses up almost all her Kei...I hope then Lay-fon volunteers to be Nina's mentor in training...

He needs to, I bet he can't bear to see his respected senior enduring her own training like hell. And yeah she needs Layfon so that she can do benchmarking on her training. It's useless training without someone good to gauge how far you've went :rolleyes:

I don't like Nina's character, I think she is one dimensional, a far cry from Kallen. Her jelousy and stubborness is not really that sexy.

I guess you don't see characters like Kallen from CG that often. I thought I would get my fix of Kallen from Nina, but I maybe she's just a tomboy that offers superficial emotions to the story.

Why get mad on the guy that saves your ass? Because he didn't tell you he had this much power?

Sorry, just had to vent.

On a personal note, I don't think Layfon and Nina have any chemistry at all.

I'd wait until it becomes half of the season/three-quarters of the season for me to benchmark her and see about that. Right now the anime just got to its quarter-season episode (6/24).

honeypie_0106
2009-02-17, 06:56
Yeah your probably right, but she did have an unhealthy start for me. Its kind of weird how I just didn't like her, even though I thought I would like Nina the most from Layfon's harem...

First impressions last....

willyvereb
2009-02-17, 07:00
It's easy why was she nervous to Layfon:
-He lied about his skills and even didn't take seriously the inter-platoon matches...remember Nina almost had bitten the grass before Layfon has became serious.
She has a knight-like personality...so lying is not a good thing in her sense almost no matter why...

MidNteJ
2009-02-18, 21:24
For someone who values life, always rushes to her death.... in fact that's all she does rushes

Her first captain was right about her not being able to be a captain

Kinku
2009-02-18, 21:35
Reason she like to do things on her own cause she wants to use her own power to protect everyone.. thats why she has trouble with Layfon cause it hard to watch someone doing what you want to do and you cant do anything about it.

Master Assassin
2009-02-18, 21:54
Reason she like to do things on her own cause she wants to use her own power to protect everyone.. thats why she has trouble with Layfon cause it hard to watch someone doing what you want to do and you cant do anything about it.

The real trouble I think is because she wants to do what Layfon can do but she lacks the power to, and when she found out about Layfon's real powers she went angry with Layfon for having powers to do what she wants to do yet is reluctant to use it.

Slick_rick
2009-02-18, 22:02
The real trouble I think is because she wants to do what Layfon can do but she lacks the power to, and when she found out about Layfon's real powers she went angry with Layfon for having powers to do what she wants to do yet is reluctant to use it.

I don't think she's angry at Layfon. I'd say she more angry with her own weakness which is more fitting with her character. When in Ep6 the other captain told her that she was relying too much on Layfon she knew he was right. Layfon also doesn't seem reluctant anymore to use his powers anymore if we take what he says at the end of Ep5 and in Ep6 he didn't seem to be holding back in training.

Tjaard
2009-02-19, 06:34
I don't think she's angry at Layfon. I'd say she more angry with her own weakness which is more fitting with her character. When in Ep6 the other captain told her that she was relying too much on Layfon she knew he was right. Layfon also doesn't seem reluctant anymore to use his powers anymore if we take what he says at the end of Ep5 and in Ep6 he didn't seem to be holding back in training.

I quote all that you said, except the last thing, i thinks that layfon, surely doesn't seem reluctant anymore, but in the training room isn't so serious, if you think that he used to kill bugs always, i don't think that on a training against those things he used all his strenght (when he fight them reminds me of one that sweeps dust with a broom xDD)

Slick_rick
2009-02-19, 06:53
I quote all that you said, except the last thing, i thinks that layfon, surely doesn't seem reluctant anymore, but in the training room isn't so serious, if you think that he used to kill bugs always, i don't think that on a training against those things he used all his strenght (when he fight them reminds me of one that sweeps dust with a broom xDD)

Well he does score almost 25 times more than her and on a higher difficulty level, 10 compared to 8. So at least we can say that he's putting forth an honest effort... Damn I'd feel like utter crap too if I was in her situation now that I think about it.

Tjaard
2009-02-19, 07:14
Surely she hate herself now, he has demolished her pride lol
However i like a chara as her, for now she thinks to the others only as comrade that help her to follow his ideals, so i want see as she develop her way of thinking, friends and for someone maybe something more :)

CybEssen
2009-02-19, 09:32
I wouldn't say she hates herself. She's just down in the dumps since she has dedicated her life (probably) to military arts after she ran away from what you COULD call a "set for life" scenario with her rich family and all, and she can't get up there with Layfon (Who has been hesitant for a while now, and even though he has all that power wants to be the opposite of what she is striving for, which in turn has her :confused:...) even though she's trying her hardest.

Then again we don't know what she was going through living "luxuriously" so that's just an assumption at best. Maybe we'll get more on that later. Some of her motivation is due to her attachment to the Zuellini fairy or fairies in general which we know a little more about at this time.

The defense of the city and the recent platoon match were a great wake up call for her, which in turn made her up her training up a notch to the point where it could be life threatening.

She wants to be up there so bad, but she's impatient. Granted, the filth monsters aren't going to wait around until she reaches new heights to attack so I guess the sense of urgency is understandable.

Tjaard
2009-02-19, 12:11
If you remember when she faint after the kidnap-fairy event, harley said that she probably thinks weakness is a sin, because a weak is unable to protect something and eventually lost it; so when she saw that 1 larva is more powerful than her, probably she began to hate herself, because she can't surely protect zuellny (and she is a bit jealous of layfon, but this is normally).
Well i want see more her evil angry look on the 1-2 epi xDD (when tried to recruit members for her platoon, funny eyes xDD)

willyvereb
2009-02-19, 12:53
I wouldn't say that she weaker than a bug because she can damage it somehow(and she have the intelligence and reflexes to eventually kill it) but it's an extremely tough fight for her and the bugs comes in swarms so even with good teamwork it's hopeless with the current power and skill of the platoon(and the other platoons too).
As i said elsewhere i don't think that they can't kill a single one of them because if that's the case then the bugs were already in the city when Layfon came.

willyvereb
2009-02-23, 03:32
Ok...Nina acts more and more like a captain. It seems that she got significantly stronger with the secret training(i mean compared to the former self at ep 2).
She has somewhat a dual personality: -the mask of the platoon leader:Strong willed, reckless fighter, who always in the most dangerous situation to save it from her comrades.
-A nice little girl who hates seeing someone hurt.
Currently her mask is pretty tough so we rarely see her nice side(most of the time only with Zuelni)

Slick_rick
2009-02-23, 04:29
Ok...Nina acts more and more like a captain. It seems that she got significantly stronger with the secret training(i mean compared to the former self at ep 2).
She has somewhat a dual personality: -the mask of the platoon leader:Strong willed, reckless fighter, who always in the most dangerous situation to save it from her comrades.
-A nice little girl who hates seeing someone hurt.
Currently her mask is pretty tough so we rarely see her nice side(most of the time only with Zuelni)

I don't know if I'd call that a mask or dual personality. It's pretty much who she is. The fact that she hates seeing people hurt is one of the main reasons she is so reckless at times and she was always a fairly nice person. Only thing I think changed in this episode was her becoming more willing to work with her team instead of trying to do everything herself.

Voitan
2009-02-24, 02:02
-A nice little girl who hates seeing someone hurt.
Currently her mask is pretty tough so we rarely see her nice side(most of the time only with Zuelni)

I wouldn't call Nina a little girl by any means. :heh:

Girl is stacked.

Master Assassin
2009-02-25, 02:45
I facepalmed on a fact I found out about Nina. An illustration showed by dear Gentleman "Mr. Novel #8" (nick'd Mixing Note) told me this...Nina seems to be deathly afraid of ferrets, to the point she'll draw her Dites and go berserk that Layfon has to draw his own Dite out to stop Nina. Deadly "cute girly" trait indeed.... :heh:

meh
2009-02-25, 09:37
The thing with Nina is just that she goes straight ahead at full speed all the time. And has trouble dealing with reality and other personalities. That's personally why I don't like her character. It's neither a smart nor an efficient way of doing things.

I hope Nina grows as a character, because she seems to be a pretty talented strategist and generally a good commander when she's actually thinking.

justinstrife
2009-03-05, 04:30
On a personal note, I don't think Layfon and Nina have any chemistry at all.

I am SO not shipping this pairing. I don't care for her either.

Layfon is badass. We need more male leads like him. Badly.

I'm 8 episodes in, and Nina is just not doing it for me. :rolleyes:

GreenLama
2009-03-05, 08:19
I find Nina to be a pretty cool character, but she seems a little pushy and seems to be very into her military arts and the whole Platoon thing, if she relaxed a little bit she would come across as a more easy going character. I am only on episode 6, so maybe she changes over the course of the next couple installments, but I doubt she will.

Fevvers
2009-03-06, 06:33
I dunno, I think Nina's flaws make her a fascinating character and someone very easy to relate to (which, I suppose, is also what makes her annoying to some people?). Her selfishness, insecurity and jealousy (that has nothing to do with romance) is a breath of fresh air for shounen female leads, imo. Whether or not she would be believably developed in future episodes is another beast entirely though...

As for all these shipping business, uhm, I don't really mind Layfon/Nina, neither do I love it; Layfon's a bit bland for my taste, I need to see more development from his side to fully formulate an opinion on that. I do think Nina and that childhood friend of hers cute together though; he seems to have the role female characters usually have, that is, the devoted friend who never gets the guy/girl. Having that reversed is, well, kinda adorable. Hee.

cheesie
2009-03-08, 21:40
Moved from the Episode 9 thread.

Guess we won't be on the same side in this show Crisis. :heh:

I would imagine so, JS. :) Of course, it'll not be easy to sympathize with a character you have no intention of siding with, but seeing how she seems to be as much as a central character as Layfon is in regards to the overall story, it would be worthwhile to exercise a bit of patience and see where she's heading later on. ;)

Currently, I'm doing the same with Felli. Being a woman myself (most likely not the targeted demographic), I have absolutely no interest in her frills or how shiny her hair is, which seems to be the one of Felli's selling points, so it's hard to emphasize with her when her character seems to be settling comfortably in the role of a rather generic stereotype. That's not to say I outright dislike her; it's more to do with how I'm unimpressed so far with what I've seen as I find her rather bland, but like Nina, she always has room for further development and I'm always welcome to the prospect of warming up to Felli later on. :)

justinstrife
2009-03-08, 22:48
Character development is over-rated if the character isn't likable to me. :heh:

Felli is pure fluff for me and that's about it. Cute to look at, has her funny moments, but there isn't a female in the story that really draws me in. I'm in the show purely for the frills, thigh highs, and Layfon kicking some hardcore ass.

Nina's just an eyesore and one I'm practicing tuning out. Lets just say if I knew someone like her in person, we'd NEVER get a long and she'd be put in her place rather quickly with her ideals.

willyvereb
2009-03-09, 04:41
Remember: Nina is Layfon's friend and Captain at once. She exepts from Layfon to be frank and clear with her because of that "titles"(as friend and his captain). It's essential for the good relationship and the trust beetween them(in a platoon where the captain can't trust in her subordinate the effectiveness of the whole platoon suffers from it).
With the last episode i guess he confronted him to explain why he did what he did in the past...she's interested in Layfon's reasons behind all this.
Just an example:
You are working in a business company...You have a friend who your subordinate at once. You find out that he got caught stealing. What would you do?
A. Nothing...nothing to do with me and my work.
B. Fire him!
C. question him throrougly about the stealing case and then decide later.

Nina choose the C answer in that case...but it seems you choose the A answer...while it's crazy because your friend in the example might steal from your company too!
Perhaps we know that Layfon is not a bad guy and he has a proper reason for it, but how the hell Nina know that??? Her responsibility as a captain and her curiosity as a friend make her do that.

Tjaard
2009-03-09, 05:34
Yeah, probably that's the reason, but i like see this up&down feeling for layfon tha she has, because she is slowly trying to understand layfon not however accept everything about him, so i prefer this development that someone that already accept him without know nothing :)

GreenLama
2009-03-09, 07:25
Remember: Nina is Layfon's friend and Captain at once. She exepts from Layfon to be frank and clear with her because of that "titles"(as friend and his captain). It's essential for the good relationship and the trust beetween them(in a platoon where the captain can't trust in her subordinate the effectiveness of the whole platoon suffers from it).
With the last episode i guess he confronted him to explain why he did what he did in the past...she's interested in Layfon's reasons behind all this.
Just an example:
You are working in a business company...You have a friend who your subordinate at once. You find out that he got caught stealing. What would you do?
A. Nothing...nothing to do with me and my work.
B. Fire him!
C. question him throrougly about the stealing case and then decide later.

Nina choose the C answer in that case...but it seems you choose the A answer...while it's crazy because your friend in the example might steal from your company too!
Perhaps we know that Layfon is not a bad guy and he has a proper reason for it, but how the hell Nina know that??? Her responsibility as a captain and her curiosity as a friend make her do that.

Good way to put Nina in perspective when linked to Layfon. I have never really had to do it but if I had to be a superior in the work place to a friend as well as be his friend outside of work and something like theft or insubordination came up, I don't know what I would do. It must be hard for her.

TrueKnight
2009-03-09, 07:43
Not exactly. Its actually when and where Layfon did those things. He's in Zuellni and not Grendan anymore, Nina's basically complaining for the action what Layfon already did in the past and been punished for it, which was exile by the queen. So far Layfon in Zuellni is being a good kid and didn't make a fuss. Now when she finally knew about his past where its actually beyond her comprehention, being a spoiled runaway girl who likes to play wargame and idealistic, instead of trying to understand what Layfon's motives really were and how much pressure did a HB had back then, she tried to lecture Layfon to use her ideals intead. What if she were in the same situations as Layfon, she'd probably say otherwise. She's too rash into things without thinking cool first.

That's the kind of things from her I wanted her to change.

Wargumm1i
2009-03-09, 08:03
I do think it was unfair of Nina too soo quickly judge Layfon without hearing the whole story. Also its obvious that the Student council president knew about Layfon´s past, all of it and tried to help him get over it by putting Layfon on the same side as the annoying big brute and the cat girl.

Enternal
2009-03-10, 22:02
Then again we don't know what she was going through living "luxuriously" so that's just an assumption at best. Maybe we'll get more on that later. Some of her motivation is due to her attachment to the Zuellini fairy or fairies in general which we know a little more about at this time.

The defense of the city and the recent platoon match were a great wake up call for her, which in turn made her up her training up a notch to the point where it could be life threatening.

She wants to be up there so bad, but she's impatient. Granted, the filth monsters aren't going to wait around until she reaches new heights to attack so I guess the sense of urgency is understandable.

Yeah, I heard from somewhere that her life was not exactly "luxurious" as the anime so far had shown or revealed. If it is so, they should show more of it so that people could understand more about her than just saying she's some rich spoiled brat who likes to chase fairies because that sure doesn't explain other things about her.

But yeah, Nina is acting too rashly right now and really need to think carefully

Character development is over-rated if the character isn't likable to me. :heh:

Felli is pure fluff for me and that's about it. Cute to look at, has her funny moments, but there isn't a female in the story that really draws me in. I'm in the show purely for the frills, thigh highs, and Layfon kicking some hardcore ass.

Nina's just an eyesore and one I'm practicing tuning out. Lets just say if I knew someone like her in person, we'd NEVER get a long and she'd be put in her place rather quickly with her ideals.

So you are a person who relies a lot on impressions that you get from a character rather than how they developed right? So if a character seems badass somewhere in the beginning, when his flaws are revealed later you don't mind it but the reverse it true? Then it's going to be hard for you to like and see a developed character if this is how you fee. Anyway, I felt like you could never put someone like Nina in her place because you don't have what it takes unlike Layfon who can act calmly and discussed with her his ideals until she could understand and likewise.

But yeah, Nina is too rash and rushes into things. She needs to slow down and think a bit more.

Ryu-kun
2009-03-10, 22:07
Shes irrational, however contains a (Saber) noble personality if she changes by being more understanding instead of being reckless and seeing the things Layfon has seen it might be more different never less if she develops correctly then she might be my fav heroine for regios in Fon Fon's harem XD

justinstrife
2009-03-11, 02:15
So you are a person who relies a lot on impressions that you get from a character rather than how they developed right? So if a character seems badass somewhere in the beginning, when his flaws are revealed later you don't mind it but the reverse it true? Then it's going to be hard for you to like and see a developed character if this is how you fee. Anyway, I felt like you could never put someone like Nina in her place because you don't have what it takes unlike Layfon who can act calmly and discussed with her his ideals until she could understand and likewise.

But yeah, Nina is too rash and rushes into things. She needs to slow down and think a bit more.

If Layfon becomes a complete jerk or bad guy, then I'd hope someone would take him down. That's not going to happen though, so your argument is lame. :rolleyes:

First impressions mean a hell of a lot in real life. They can make or break you, whether it's in jobs, friendships, or relationships, and there's a good chance you can't ever break out of that first impression.

Fevvers
2009-03-11, 05:15
@justinstrife: Let me just butt in and say that not all characters need to be likable, or even sympathetic. Not that Nina isn't likable to me, because she is, really. It's obvious to me that no one here can change your mind, and that's fine. Doesn't seem like you have anything more constructive to say, so moving on.

What do people here think of the Layfon/Nina development in episode 9? I saw a lot of uproar over Nina's decision on the other thread, but was I the only who thought the escalating tension between them so very... delish? Haha, sorry. Seriously though, I think it was Crisis who mentioned it before, those two are undergoing one of the most interesting and meaningful developments in this show. It even made Layfon interesting for the first time! I love his sudden doubt on his philosophy, and hope we get to see more internal struggles like this.

Enternal
2009-03-11, 05:25
If Layfon becomes a complete jerk or bad guy, then I'd hope someone would take him down. That's not going to happen though, so your argument is lame. :rolleyes:

First impressions mean a hell of a lot in real life. They can make or break you, whether it's in jobs, friendships, or relationships, and there's a good chance you can't ever break out of that first impression.

First impression can do a lot in real life which is very true. But do you want to be those people who let 1st impressions ruin their views of others who might actually be different than they initially appear? That's what I am trying to convey here. We try to be better than that so we try to limit the heavy impacts of our initial impression of others.

Anyway, how is my argument lame? I'm trying to convey my message by using Layfon as an example so you got the idea but you still call it lame? :rolleyes:

What do people here think of the Layfon/Nina development in episode 9? I saw a lot of uproar over Nina's decision on the other thread, but was I the only who thought the escalating tension between them so very... delish? Haha, sorry. Seriously though, I think it was Crisis who mentioned it before, those two are undergoing one of the most interesting and meaningful developments in this show. It even made Layfon interesting for the first time! I love his sudden doubt on his philosophy, and hope we get to see more internal struggles like this.

I felt that the development is getting better since it makes each character more interesting since it makes them question their past actions and thoughts which is a good thing. One day you might think your action is correct but down the road, you might change your opinion due to many reasons like you grew up, you reevaluate yourself why did you think that way during that time which could perhaps be due to anger or other bias. Having Layfon and Nina clashing with each other like this so far seems to help them more than break them as Layfon starts to think more of his actions and Nina starts to think about her own ideals.

Tjaard
2009-03-11, 05:49
Having Layfon and Nina clashing with each other like this so far seems to help them more than break them as Layfon starts to think more of his actions and Nina starts to think about her own ideals.

Surely, more their thoughts clashing with each other, and more they deepens their relationship, this is normal :heh:
And surely i prefer someone that clashing with his personality and way of thinking than someone that only because love him take his side, because it means only a lack of personality:p

Enternal
2009-03-11, 06:22
Surely, more their thoughts clashing with each other, and more they deepens their relationship, this is normal :heh:
And surely i prefer someone that clashing with his personality and way of thinking than someone that only because love him take his side, because it means only a lack of personality:p

Definitely. So far all three main heroines are interesting in that aspect. Nina has clashing ideals with Layfon which makes them discuss with each other more and come more to and understanding with each other. Then there is Felli who seems to don't really care about Layfon ideals since he did not really hurt anyone good yet. Then there's Leerin who is already someone who understands Layfon.

Beside, if you simply take someone side because you love them, is that really love or is that more of an infatuation? If you really do love them, I believe that you still think whether what they did is right or wrong because you want the best for them.

Overall though, Nina and Layfon clashes because of how they were brought up differently. Leerin on the other hand grew up a similar situation so she understands him. Felli on the other hand I'm still a but confused. Is is because they share similar strong powers? Or simply she does not care too much about his ideals? I guess I need more time to think about that.

Tjaard
2009-03-11, 06:52
Definitely. So far all three main heroines are interesting in that aspect. Nina has clashing ideals with Layfon which makes them discuss with each other more and come more to and understanding with each other. Then there is Felli who seems to don't really care about Layfon ideals since he did not really hurt anyone good yet. Then there's Leerin who is already someone who understands Layfon.

Beside, if you simply take someone side because you love them, is that really love or is that more of an infatuation? If you really do love them, I believe that you still think whether what they did is right or wrong because you want the best for them.

Overall though, Nina and Layfon clashes because of how they were brought up differently. Leerin on the other hand grew up a similar situation so she understands him. Felli on the other hand I'm still a but confused. Is is because they share similar strong powers? Or simply she does not care too much about his ideals? I guess I need more time to think about that.

Yeah, for Felli probably is because they share strong powers and they know what means have it and to be used only for that (SCP :heh:), so probably she is fine when is with him, and because he ask her help with kindness (was always accustomed to being used by his brother that exploiting her powers)
For Leerin, many people think that she is someone who understands Layfon, surely she know layfon because is her childhood friend, but if you see her face when he cut Gaharn's arm, i don't think that she accept everthing that he do, contrary to what she says, probably she side with layfon only because she love him and no one else had taken his side after that incident (except the Queen and some HB, but this she probably don't know).

Enternal
2009-03-11, 07:00
Yeah, for Felli probably is because they share strong powers and they know what means have it and to be used only for that (SCP :heh:), so probably she is fine when is with him, and because he ask her help with kindness (was always accustomed to being used by his brother that exploiting her powers)
For Leerin, many people think that she is someone who understands Layfon, surely she know layfon because is her childhood friend, but if you see her face when he cut Gaharn's arm, i don't think that she accept everthing that he do, contrary to what she says, probably she side with layfon only because she love him and no one else had taken his side after that incident (except the Queen and some HB, but this she probably don't know).

I see, so that's probably the most likely reason anyway because there doesn't seem to be any other explanation. About Leerin, I felt that she does not exactly or completely understand Layfon (who does) but she probably is someone who understands him more than other people although like you said, she probably does not accept everything he does but since she understands his situation more since she grew up with him in a similar situation, she is much more accepting of him than others. Is this how you feel then? Sorry if I'm rehashing everything you say since I'm rather tired and can't seem to think clearly of what you wrote so I just want to verify. Oh yeah, she sure seemed strong since she does not sway when it comes to the topic about visiting the orphanage and stuff. She's like "I already decided that I will not visit the orphanage and that's that." No iffy or whatever. She is pretty much like the description from one of the novel readers and that's awesome then.

cheesie
2009-03-11, 07:19
Overall though, Nina and Layfon clashes because of how they were brought up differently.

True.

This episode shows how Nina is clearly riled up by how staunch and unforgiving Layfon is with his principles. Here, Layfon explains to Nina that he would do anything to survive, and she was visibly taken aback by how little regard he has for his honor as a Heaven's Blade receiver. Having understood the reality that honor doesn't place food on the table or give you a place to sleep, Layfon uses his power in any means necessary to fend for himself. It's a life principle that he has clearly abode by, and Nina doesn't have the first-hand experience needed to relate to that. By the end, however, she's come to accept the differences in their way of thinking, but as she approached Layfon, it seems her mind is on a different issue.

For now, I assume the issue boils down to the weight of Layfon's revelation and for Nina to decide if it's too heavy for the squadron to bear or not. But it's not as if Nina's the only one in the dark; Layfon himself is questioning this very life principle, and looking very calm over this, so it's highly possible he's been harboring these thoughts for a long time now, probably right after his entry into Nina's squadron. It's a shame that Nina wasn't there to witness the scene, he wouldn't have appeared to be so rigid to her then. What's most important is that they need to reach a mutual understanding, and there's no doubt they certainly will, much like the previous issues where they've proven themselves to confront and overcome. A wealth of development for both the plot and the relationship indeed. :)

Tjaard
2009-03-11, 07:36
I see, so that's probably the most likely reason anyway because there doesn't seem to be any other explanation. About Leerin, I felt that she does not exactly or completely understand Layfon (who does) but she probably is someone who understands him more than other people although like you said, she probably does not accept everything he does but since she understands his situation more since she grew up with him in a similar situation, she is much more accepting of him than others. Is this how you feel then? Sorry if I'm rehashing everything you say since I'm rather tired and can't seem to think clearly of what you wrote so I just want to verify. Oh yeah, she sure seemed strong since she does not sway when it comes to the topic about visiting the orphanage and stuff. She's like "I already decided that I will not visit the orphanage and that's that." No iffy or whatever. She is pretty much like the description from one of the novel readers and that's awesome then.

No probably you've right, but if she said something as "I already decided that I will not visit the orphanage and that's that", we can only think that until she follow Layfon's decision, the other thing aren't so important, because take side with Layfon means that for her Layfon surely is important but the other not so much and i don't think is so, or this is what i feel, you know when someone say "Love is blind" xDD
The other point is that we don't know who lived at the orphanage, but this makes me think that except for Layfon and Leerin the other were all children or persons with whom she had not then this great relationship if she leave them, but for this we need to see all the past of layfon to the orphanage.
Surely what i started to think is that if anyone had done the same thing for the orphanage, she certainly didn't take his side, this isn't probably a bad thing but i don't like this behavior, take side with someone only because you love him.
Well, probably i missed some point but i'm pretty tired too xDD

justinstrife
2009-03-11, 10:33
First impression can do a lot in real life which is very true. But do you want to be those people who let 1st impressions ruin their views of others who might actually be different than they initially appear? That's what I am trying to convey here. We try to be better than that so we try to limit the heavy impacts of our initial impression of others.

Anyway, how is my argument lame? I'm trying to convey my message by using Layfon as an example so you got the idea but you still call it lame? :rolleyes:

Your example was lame because it's not going to happen, and the odds of it happening are so minuscule it's not worth mentioning. Bring out a realistic example. :rolleyes:

I prefer my thought processes and how I think just fine. As you obviously feel the same about yours so we'll just have to agree to disagree forever on this subject. Some people just can never, ever, see eye to eye on certain issues, and this is one of them. :heh:

willyvereb
2009-03-11, 15:15
At least we have one girl who's not head over heels about Layfon. She acts according to her "basic" character: bound to honor and very seriously.
I can't wait to see her "cute side"ferret phobia, Teddy bear

gonzo562
2009-03-13, 18:28
i dont like nina her emotions are like a roller coaster

first i wont abandon u layfon, now sorry layfon im abandoning u!

Von Himmel
2009-04-08, 06:49
^
Well, I don't think it really was like that ^^; It's just because she can't come up with Layfon in a better way because the difference of their idealism. You know, when people had a different opinion, they tend to avoid each other so that they wouldn't have a fight. It's a different matter when they manage to talk to each other, because it can result to a fight.

And it's not like she doesn't care about Layfon. Just look at her reaction during the deserted city arc :)

TrueKnight
2009-04-08, 10:15
And it's not like she doesn't care about Layfon. Just look at her reaction during the deserted city arc.

Yea she likes him but seems remain in denial. She's a hardcore tsundere lol. Maybe give her 2 or 3 more ep.....

willyvereb
2009-04-08, 16:43
She's far from Tsundere...more like Nakamadere:p
The Tsunderes are hurting the other(physicaly or emotionaly) with their denial. Nina has no problem being close to Layfon but she constantly denies her feelings and she tries hard to think about him as "just" a comrade.

Fevvers
2009-04-08, 18:55
Yeah, I don't think she's tsundere at all. Then again, I don't want to pigeonhole characters into stereotypes if it could be helped.

She is in her denial/confusion stage with Layfon though, so a bit of snappy moments from her would be unavoidable, I think. Not that that's bad thing, I'd rather the anime develop the romance angles much gradually instead of the usual love at first/second sight (coughfellicough).

Voitan
2009-04-09, 18:53
She's far from Tsundere...more like Nakamadere:p
The Tsunderes are hurting the other(physicaly or emotionaly) with their denial. Nina has no problem being close to Layfon but she constantly denies her feelings and she tries hard to think about him as "just" a comrade.

I'll agree here as well. Nina doesn't lash out at Layfon, though she will grill him hard on something she disapproves of.

Think of your typical D&D Paladin, and that's her.

willyvereb
2009-04-10, 00:42
Yeah...i guess her next Dite would be a two handed warhammer:p

TrueKnight
2009-04-10, 07:23
Okay maybe she's not a tsundere but when she's truly fallen for him I'm betting she'd be all tsun-tsun like the scene they showed us in ep 11.

Tjaard
2009-04-10, 09:29
Yep, Nina surely isn't a full tsundere and felli isn't a full loli, so we've half clichè chara, for this they're awesome :D

Ultramarinus
2009-05-14, 03:29
Think of your typical D&D Paladin, and that's her.

Indeed and this by itself already was enough to make her my favorite character in the series. However she's not the blind self-righteous type so tries her best to learn and improve, interacting with other characters and developing them as well. I'd say that Layfon owes most of his development to her and thus, the plot itself.

Her dedication to the nobler goals are combined with a degree of realistic approach (most easily noticed as her pursuit of strength, as she's aware that just idealism isn't enough) makes her stand a clear cut above the usual stereotype in my book.

To be honest, it doesn't make sense that she's not as popular as some other characters that barely developed even if at all, not to mention that they act as if thinking they're living in Tokyo with no survival worries. I wonder if some people really watch this show as a romantic high school comedy, valuing characters based on cuteness. :rolleyes:

willyvereb
2009-05-14, 05:42
The reasons simple...
1.The anime made her stupider and weaker than she really is.
2. she opposes Layfon-sama, the "god of Regios":p
3. Hard to read, and she seems like an emotional rollercoaster with that.
The light novels translated to english(thanks to Blewin) to chapter 4 of the first volume.

Layfon admires her determination and inner strenght. Not to mention that the 17th Platoon won the first match against the 16th without any serious help from Layfon. He though if they' lost the match then the 17th platoon dismissed and Nina's hopes crushed. He pwned 2 students in seconds and rushed to save Nina, but at the meantime Sharnid captures the flag(with a shot, any damage to the flag means defeat to the defenders). So in the end Layfon has little use in the first match in contrast with the anime. Layfon not always the one who saves the day..

satomianzaki
2009-05-14, 11:59
among the girl characters in regios, nina is also my favorite...even though some dislike her, i totally like the way they made and develop her character...well, i agree with willy that her character in the novel is way more pleasant than the one we witnessed in the anime...
but i still think she really stands out among the other girl characters in csr...

:)

Ultramarinus
2009-05-20, 09:13
Alright then let’s talk about some of the few negative traits about Nina:

- Made the most contributions on Zuellni losing one of its mines 2 years prior.
- Selfishly forcing Layfon to change his philosophy when she basically was living in a idealistic whereas Layfon is pragmatic;
- Advising Layfon not to subdue Dinn Dee when Kallian and Haia insisted otherwise;
- Didn’t do crap in ep 14 and just watching;
- Getting herself all beaten up and didn’t take Sheena’s advice in ep 16 because she was overestimating herself;
- She was asked by Layfon to check on Zuellni, she did, and found the Haikizoku and possessed being teleported to Myath along with Zuellni’s fairy. Ultimately in a strategic PoV for the city, she had failed, horribly. Zuellni was gone and the city becomes vulnerable to FM’s attacks.

Seriously, what made platoon 17 or even Zuellni so special? It’s not Nina, the star players are Layfon and Felli all along.

To start with, as long as someone can reflect on his mistakes and try to improve with good will, it enriches the character. In fact, this is pretty much the most commended type of character development. I never claim that Nina is perfect, it's not such a kind of anime. The lead ones are teenagers after all, they're interacting and evolving. I was uninterested in Layfon till he found his new path as well. After that, I came to like him even if he's more like chaotic good. That's why Felli rubs me the wrong way all around.

- She was the closest to taking the flag still, arguably a lack of good teamwork and she wasn't as powerful back then. Reflects on it and forms her squad to start with a better position next time. Inter-platoon matches decide start points.
- And that's what caused Layfon to awaken. Had she not, buh-bye Czellni on ep 7. Not to mention that the most serious plot advancement till now as it set the lead's motivation.
- Well, I think she cared for him as he was like her, determined to protect the city. She had warned him as well, going against police orders so that's an indication. Maybe it didn't serve the greater good, I'll accept that. It's a conflict that arises frequently in lawful good characters. Sometimes you can't satisfy both aspects of your alignment and have to. Most people find LG characters uninteresting but I find them exciting due to the dilemmas they face, their preference defines and crafts their character.
- Yeah but ep 14 was practically Sharnid's 15 mins of fame and Layfon soloed pretty much everything else. It's not like she avoided anything based on what we saw, people kept telling "leave that to us!/me!" to her.
- Her mistake was to not postpone the match but that was to show Layfon that he shouldn't take all the burden on his shoulders anymore. A serious mistake, but out of goodwill. As for the match strategy, there were 2 tanks and 2 ranged, opposition would gang up on them if they went together. I doubt they would fare any better, opposition could just delay them long enough to get their flag. We're informed that platoon 17 is one of the less populated squads and they went against the most powerful, so it doesn't come across as a surprise. She did overestimate her platoon though, I'll give you that.
- It was out of her control, Layfon barely avoided possession earlier. As I keep repeating, it wasn't her own will or choice for things to go that way. Haikizoku conveniently found someone with strong willpower and didn't miss the opportunity.

I know man, but she did it nevertheless. A lot of people and lives were saved because of her using her powers. Nina on the other hand didn’t have the god-like powers like Layfon and Felli’s. So she was being useful by properly command and utilizing them. But without them she’s just the same as all platoon grunts leader in the Regios world, nothing special. Now that she has the Haikizoku she’ll be target by the Ignus and somewhat that’ll made her central to the whole plot.
As I said earlier, power isn't the same thing as strength. Everybody can't be John Rambo, someone's gotta be his colonel. As much as Rambo is cool, the colonel both helps the plot to advance and a likable character. Regios setting is kinda like Vietnam war and Felli just doesn't suit it. Sharnid does, Dinn does, the president, even Meisshen does, because someone's gotta peel potatoes even in war. But you don't bring selfish princesses to Vietnam, it just feels wrong and out of place.

Maybe they'll extract the goat before she can even use its power, there are multiple directions to head from here.

But what about Nina?

Layfon got hurt in ep 15 because of the bridge falling and in ep 16 what was she thinking? The platoon match, not his subordinate’s well being but rather his powers and the effect for the squad. No wonder Felli always detest for being used because of people like her and Kallian who treated them as tools rather than human being. I guess that’s the ‘curse’ of having great power comes with big responsibilities.

I mean come on. Nina was all reckless in ep 1 – 7 but because of Layfon she changed to be a better squad leader and a captain from ep 7 onwards. Felli from I don’t care and don’t want to use my powers I don’t give a crap to anybody but because of Layfon finally willing did all the efforts I mention above.

It’s their character growths, but it’s not all without fault. Felli as you said is still being too dependent on Layfon to defining her character, while Nina depending to Layfon just for his powers. Nina finally snapped and maybe also Felli in the future.

Lets just sit back and enjoy their character grow because of Layfon and maybe we can have a harem.
I told about the LG dilemma above, that's where the lawful aspect went into foreground. It also makes sense considering that she cannot abandon her duties and responsibilities as a commander and wail for a single squad member that apparently was expected to recover fast. (Regios science seems to treat even spine damage like a mere cold, we saw other examples before like Nina getting slashed, etc) Still, she blamed herself later on due to letting the lawful aspect outweigh goodness. Another dilemma with no clear right answer.

I like Nina because she's imperfect in a good way. Humans after all, are faulty creatures, it's only your intention that your character can be judged on. Whatever that doesn't kill her, makes her stronger. She tries her best, doesn't budge even if things get tough. She's got ideals but ultimately she'll adapt when needed, like ep 10. But that doesn't mean abandoning them for convenience. Moreover, she develops and hormones don't play a part in it. :heh:

Oh man, what a WoT I wrote here. Ultimately, everyone can like whoever they want and dislike whoever they want and I'm not expecting to change their ideas. It's just that I'm basing these likes/dislikes on the characters' builds: their background, motivation, interaction, intention and development. So that's why I'll argue if required. :)

TrueKnight
2009-05-20, 09:19
One of my main gripes with Felli was her constant Layfonism, outside of her obsession with Layfon, what else does she have in her mind? Her volatile relationship with her brother and defiance to being used as a weapon could have been interesting, but let's be honest here, the anime has done very little to tackle that. She's just there to be... cute and a token love interest, and that's simply not a very fascinating place to be.

I'm still hoping things would change, that the show would stop making her whole world revolve around some guy, but considering it has already been 19 episodes, some doubts are completely unavoidable.

And, no, before some overzealous Felli-fan come ripping my throat, I was not criticizing her effectiveness in battle; she's a godsue, nothing more to say about that. Her reasons for using those powers are a different thing entirely. I have no problem with some selfishness on her part, especially with the whole ‘being used thing’, but when her only reason for fighting is for her twu wub, that sort of submissiveness is irksome and is in desperate need of some development.

I agree and this pretty much sums my views on her. She’s too devoted to Layfon. Some may see this as appalling while for some this is her main charm and attraction. A cold persone being pulled and attracted by somebody’s kindness or ‘stupidity’ and revolve around him with developing in the process.

but it's not worth getting personal over it as it's just a discussion where everyone chimes in with their two cents, and so far, things are looking pretty well-behaved. It's possible to discuss about Felli's traits without aggressively pulling other characters into it, as it appears you intend to diverge from the main point when you slander other characters in response to the criticisms. (You, as in general.)

Some people are defending Nina while downplaying Felli in the process. I’m doing just the same. In this particular issue when judging a character I haven’t drag any other characters into the pissing contest right until now. In some cases I agree about judging characters should not have drag other characters, but for the sake of valuing how the character is worth (like good or evil, useful or useless, lovely or an ass, badass or a wuss), sometimes comparisons are unavoidable.

I do however, agree about the ‘aggressive’ part, it is un-necessary and I apologize.

Edit: Responses

To start with, as long as someone can reflect on his mistakes and try to improve with good will, it enriches the character. In fact, this is pretty much the most commended type of character development. I never claim that Nina is perfect, it's not such a kind of anime. The lead ones are teenagers after all, they're interacting and evolving. I was uninterested in Layfon till he found his new path as well. After that, I came to like him even if he's more like chaotic good. That's why Felli rubs me the wrong way all around.

Ah, but Felli did change with her feats that I’ve stated earlier above. ;) Like Nina, her character also grew though not perfect.

arguably a lack of good teamwork and she wasn't as powerful back then

Okay.

- And that's what caused Layfon to awaken. Had she not, buh-bye Czellni on ep 7. Not to mention that the most serious plot advancement till now as it set the lead's motivation.

She didn’t know about Layfon’s past back then. Had she known she would’ve contradict with him once again and probably threaten to expel all over again. Layfon would’ve been transferred directly under Kallian’s command. And in the anime… Layfon had awaken because she wanted to protect Meicchi and gang (ep 5, weird but true).

Maybe it didn't serve the greater good, I'll accept that.

Okay.

Yeah but ep 14 was practically Sharnid's 15 mins of fame and Layfon soloed pretty much everything else. It's not like she avoided anything based on what we saw, people kept telling "leave that to us!/me!" to her.

Yea I agree, but she contributes almost nothing in this point.

Her mistake was to not postpone the match but that was to show Layfon that he shouldn't take all the burden on his shoulders anymore. A serious mistake, but out of goodwill.

Well the fact remains she consider him as a weapon back then. Though as you said she may regretted it and decide to change later on.

She did overestimate her platoon though, I'll give you that.

Okay and if only she had listen to other people’s inputs.

It was out of her control, Layfon barely avoided possession earlier. As I keep repeating, it wasn't her own will or choice for things to go that way. Haikizoku conveniently found someone with strong willpower and didn't miss the opportunity.

In other words she’s its her weakness. She’s not strong enough to confront the Haikizoku head on. But still she insisted eventhough it backfired on her.

As much as Rambo is cool, the colonel both helps the plot to advance and a likable character. Regios setting is kinda like Vietnam war and Felli just doesn't suit it. Sharnid does, Dinn does, the president, even Meisshen does, because someone's gotta peel potatoes even in war. But you don't bring selfish princesses to Vietnam, it just feels wrong and out of place.

But in Rambo he is the show and even without a colonel he could’ve pwn left and right at will. And in Rambo 3 most of the time it’s the colonel’s ass that was being saved by Rambo remember? Now regarding Felli, in Regios, her ‘appearance’ doesn’t suit the Regios setting but her ‘functions’ does. An indispensable military assets with regards on surveillance and combat intelligence and one of the best in Zuellni. On this matter the Rambo’s setting isn’t suitable at all because of the lack of radar display. Maybe movies like the Hunt of Red October where sonar comes to mind.

It also makes sense considering that she cannot abandon her duties and responsibilities as a commander and wail for a single squad member that apparently was expected to recover fast.

As I stated earlier, on this point she still considered him as a tool or weapon rather as a ‘friend’.

Ultramarinus
2009-05-20, 11:06
Ah, but Felli did change with her feats that I’ve stated earlier above. ;) Like Nina, her character also grew though not perfect.
She displayed all the symptoms of a crush in the earliest episodes and does only what she needs to get Layfon's affection after he awakened, not more. She got a motivation but it'd be far-fetched to call that real development. She had some potential but isn't utilized till now. Maybe 'the hug' will make the trick. Ultimately, anything she did seems to be in self-interest (love can be self-interest if you don't give a damn about the other person's feelings, "you're too kind Layton") unless she proves otherwise on this point forward.

She didn’t know about Layfon’s past back then. Had she known she would’ve contradict with him once again and probably threaten to expel all over again. Layfon would’ve been transferred directly under Kallian’s command. And in the anime… Layfon had awaken because she wanted to protect Meicchi and gang (ep 5, weird but true).
That's a speculation, I doubt that would happen as she merely mentioned getting seperated in ep 9. She was hasty to speak her mind out, but I should point out that whoever knows his past except Leerin, either:

- Sent him into exile and booed him, after having lived on his expenses
- Wanted to kill him for revenge
- Blackmailed him

So you see, what he did seems to be grave offenses against both law and custom. Certainly something to make a squad leader have second thoughts as the offenses include insubordination and using his position for self-interest. He doesn't tell the whole picture so it totally looks evil from the outside, those people don't know what really happened like we do.

Layfon awakened because it was Nina & Sharnid that would die for certain, being the first line of defense. He also recalled the trio, literally all his friends. He realized that cowering in a hole will have repercussions that he didn't want, friends' deaths.

Well the fact remains she consider him as a weapon back then. Though as you said she may regretted it and decide to change later on.
He was and he is an asset from the viewpoint of his superiors. Military works that way, you cannot be sentimental if it'll detract you from your duty. She still felt guilt even though she did her duty.
In other words she’s its her weakness. She’s not strong enough to confront the Haikizoku head on. But still she insisted eventhough it backfired on her.

Nobody knew the goat was there, they sent the person to survey the area to find Czellni. She didn't go there with the intention to confront the goat.
But in Rambo he is the show and even without a colonel he could’ve pwn left and right at will. And in Rambo 3 most of the time it’s the colonel’s ass that was being saved by Rambo remember? Now regarding Felli, in Regios, her ‘appearance’ doesn’t suit the Regios setting but her ‘functions’ does. An indispensable military assets with regards on surveillance and combat intelligence and one of the best in Zuellni. On this matter the Rambo’s setting isn’t suitable at all because of the lack of radar display. Maybe movies like the Hunt of Red October where sonar comes to mind.
Rambo always lacks motivation at the start, colonel puts him back to his feet. Colonel ain't got god-mode, but that isn't his fault. It's Rambo's sheer power that makes people look like wimps, just like Layfon does.

As for Felli, she got the powers but her character is out of place, appearance doesn't matter. The most logical role I can come up with is an anti-war hippie that whines about the mosquitoes while people die left and right around him. :p
As I stated earlier, on this point she still considered him as a tool or weapon rather as a ‘friend’.
As I said, it's how military works. You have to send your friends to their deaths if the task required it. She's rather compassionate, considering she's a commander. That caused her blunder to not postpone the match. She has to balance her job and her relations.
Many people can't accept Nina's "power-up" cause of their hate towards her. And because they think it's an instant power-up(even if it is...it's at least logical and has a great plot and drawbacks with it)
Heh, the thing is that she still hasn't used its powers, probably doesn't know how to invoke them. For all we know, Savaris closes on them with the intention to take it back. The goat may have ZERO benefit for her, as till now.

TrueKnight
2009-05-20, 11:29
That's a speculation, I doubt that would happen as she merely mentioned getting seperated in ep 9. She was hasty to speak her mind out,

True about the Kallian part. But the possible of expulsion by her from the squad is still there. That’s who Nina is. stubborn and not willing to accept people’s opinion but rather forcing her idealistic views into someone else. Without considering that other person as also an irreplaceable military assets. She lacks judgment.

So you see, what he did seems to be grave offenses against both law and custom. Certainly something to make a squad leader have second thoughts as the offenses include insubordination and using his position for self-interest. He doesn't tell the whole picture so it totally looks evil from the outside, those people don't know what really happened like we do.

No he was a convict and criminal, which had already received his punishment lawfully in accordance with the laws and custom given by the Queen of Grendan, that was exile. Ep 5 and 7 already contributed his good deeds earlier even though he had this kind of mindset right from the start, so the case of ‘insubordination’ as you speak can also be categorized as ‘speculation’ of whether he would stray off or not, really. Its just Nina doesn’t care exploring enough.

Layfon awakened because it was Nina & Sharnid that would die for certain, being the first line of defense. He also recalled the trio, literally all his friends. He realized that cowering in a hole will have repercussions that he didn't want, friends' deaths.

No, it’s quite obvious ep 5 showed the trio as Layfon’s main reason to start kicking ass, at least in the anime


He was and he is an asset from the viewpoint of his superiors. Military works that way, you cannot be sentimental if it'll detract you from your duty. She still felt guilt even though she did her duty.

Which defines her ‘character’, who sees him nothing but a tool. Though it differs in the future but that’s character development.

Nobody knew the goat was there, they sent the person to survey the area to find Czellni. She didn't go there with the intention to confront the goat.

Yes, she insisted keep confronting the goat eventhough she knew the result.

As for Felli, she got the powers but her character is out of place, appearance doesn't matter.

You dismiss the facts that by using her powers she had saved a lot of lives and judging her only by her character?

The most logical role I can come up with is an anti-war hippie that whines about the mosquitoes while people die left and right around him.

Which of course, contradicts what happened up to ep 19 where using her powers she saved many poeple and helping the squad in the process.

As I said, it's how military works. You have to send your friends to their deaths if the task required it. She's rather compassionate, considering she's a commander. That caused her blunder to not postpone the match. She has to balance her job and her relations.

And as I said again, defines her character who considers people as tool just for glory.

I'm surprised that you didn't mention the old classical ones as her faults.
Many people can't accept Nina's "power-up" cause of their hate towards her. And because they think it's an instant power-up(even if it is...it's at least logical and has a great plot and drawbacks with it)

I won't. It may be considered as fault by some, but certainly not by me.

Ultramarinus
2009-05-20, 12:14
True about the Kallian part. But the possible of expulsion by her from the squad is still there. That’s who Nina is. stubborn and not willing to accept people’s opinion but rather forcing her idealistic views into someone else. Without considering that other person as also an irreplaceable military assets. She lacks judgment.
Uh, she dropped the matter the next day. What more can you expect? If the asset has a high risk of subordination, you can be better off getting rid of it. I'd say that she let it go because she considered Layfon a friend and thought he'll behave accordingly now.

As for judgment, do you recall the dialogue between the president and 1st platoon leader who also leads military? Vance proposed to move her to another squad because her potential was put to waste coupled with unmotivated bums. The president refused and threatened with veto. Now, we all know by now that the president is an excellent judge of character. He manages to bend people to his will without lifting a finger, just through arrangements. So what we can conclude from that scene is that she thinks Nina can motivate those bums and utilize their power. And voila, all we have witnessed so far didn't prove the president wrong. That's saying something about her leading capability.

No he was a convict and criminal, which had already received his punishment lawfully in accordance with the laws and custom given by the Queen of Grendan, that was exile. Ep 5 and 7 already contributed his good deeds earlier even though he had this kind of mindset right from the start, so the case of ‘insubordination’ as you speak can also be categorized as ‘speculation’ of whether he would stray off or not, really. Its just Nina doesn’t care exploring enough.
You must know that certain jobs require you to be criminal-record free. In this instance, his crimes aren't petty and also he can be a direct threat to the squad if he didn't change his mind. He doesn't explain his conditions and the circumstances as well. And yes, Nina changes her mind because Layfon seems to be rehabilitated (from her PoV, she doesn't know about orphanage funding or blackmail) and he's a friend. She cannot learn the truth if Layfon purposely hides it.
No, it’s quite obvious ep 5 showed the trio as Layfon’s main reason to start kicking ass, at least in the anime
I'd say it served the audience to show us he cares for them as well. He just told Nina that they'd die if they went and tried to stop them, so we were presented what he already thought about the squad.
Which defines her ‘character’, who sees him nothing but a tool. Though it differs in the future but that’s character development.

It's her duty, she was making friends fast with Layfon starting from ep 2. And that was after she took him as an asset in ep 1. You can be friends with your commander but he'll still work your ass off. That's how it goes.
Yes, she insisted keep confronting the goat eventhough she knew the result.
I'm saying once more: Nobody knew it would be there, including Nina.
You dismiss the facts that by using her powers she had saved a lot of lives and judging her only by her character?

Which of course, contradicts what happened up to ep 19 where using her powers she saved many poeple and helping the squad in the process.
I'm sorry if it wasn't apparent even though I stated earlier, but that's always what I've been doing till now, judging the characters by their character. :) Felli did it all to impress Layfon (by itself is bad enough even if she soloed dragons) and nothing extraordinary, just job description. We were oftentimes told that she wasn't utilizing her potential.
And as I said again, defines her character who considers people as tool just for glory.

Now that's one totally wrong interpretation of her motive. She's using her and others' powers to protect the city, the fairy and its citizens. She doesn't just use others and watches from the back, she puts herself in the thick of the battle without batting an eye. She has to make sure her platoon comes out on top of the matches so that they can make a head start in inter-city battle and prevent the city from disbanding. She needs to win but she still won't take shortcuts just for the sake of it, recall Dinn story. Her actions are as selfless as it can get, she could have said "I don't need your advice, you're just a newcomer" or some cliche lines like that. She accepted his advice right away.

TrueKnight
2009-05-20, 12:50
Uh, she dropped the matter the next day. What more can you expect? If the asset has a high risk of subordination, you can be better off getting rid of it. I'd say that she let it go because she considered Layfon a friend and thought he'll behave accordingly now.

No. At the start of ep 10 where Felli detected a lifeforce (goat-chan) Layfon proposed that he should be the one checking because of the potential danger from bugs. Nina flatly refused because she was still pissed and ignored the input from a veteran and was asked by Sharnid about it. Layfon later ignored her orders because he felt the threat probability was too severe.

Only at the end she accepted him with her unique conversations exchange.

As for judgment, do you recall the dialogue between the president and 1st platoon leader who also leads military? Vance proposed to move her to another squad because her potential was put to waste coupled with unmotivated bums. The president refused and threatened with veto. Now, we all know by now that the president is an excellent judge of character. He manages to bend people to his will without lifting a finger, just through arrangements. So what we can conclude from that scene is that she thinks Nina can motivate those bums and utilize their power. And voila, all we have witnessed so far didn't prove the president wrong. That's saying something about her leading capability.

No, all of them were bums. Yes that includes Felli back. All of them lack motivation where Nina failed to bring the best out of them. It changes when Layfon arrives , Layfon showed his ‘I AM HAX’ scene in ep 2. Then afterwards the squad started to grow around Layfon instead of Nina. Yes the character that grew includes Nina herself. Harley could conduct experiments on the dites, Sharnid tagging along with Layfon’s popularity, and Felli overcomes her selfishness.

It’s not Nina, it’s Layfon’s. The one thing Nina succeeded so far is to keep the top dog in check in terms of behaviour.

In this instance, his crimes aren't petty and also he can be a direct threat to the squad if he didn't change his mind.

Before the events with Nina on ep 9, Layfon already conducted ‘good’ deeds even with his survival mindset intact. Starting from ep 1 he already had this kind of ‘mindset’ but he still manage to do good as seen in ep 2, 5, 7 and 8. Nina should’ve considered this issue more thoroughly.

I'd say it served the audience to show us he cares for them as well. He just told Nina that they'd die if they went and tried to stop them, so we were presented what he already thought about the squad.

That’s interpretation or speculation, while the obvious were Layfon being motivated by the trio, which I think, represent the civilian that he should or want to protect.

I'm saying once more: Nobody knew it would be there, including Nina.

Er, okay, where she could’ve wait or fall back for a bit to wait for backup.

I'm sorry if it wasn't apparent even though I stated earlier, but that's always what I've been doing till now, judging the characters by their character.

Lol lol Okay, so you don’t like her personality eventhough she had contributions on saving tons of lives. Fine by me. 

Now that's one totally wrong interpretation of her motive. She's using her and others' powers to protect the city, the fairy and its citizens. She doesn't just use others and watches from the back, she puts herself in the thick of the battle without batting an eye. She has to make sure her platoon comes out on top of the matches so that they can make a head start in inter-city battle and prevent the city from disbanding. She needs to win but she still won't take shortcuts just for the sake of it, recall Dinn story. Her actions are as selfless as it can get, she could have said "I don't need your advice, you're just a newcomer" or some cliche lines like that. She accepted his advice right away.

Even at the cost of his friends, that’s what the early part ep 16 shown us. Yes, she’s a paladin that willing to sacrifice herself for a greater good, but in doing so she’s willing to not consider the well being of his friends, but rather treat them as an asset to achieve for victory.

willyvereb
2009-05-20, 13:25
Before the events with Nina on ep 9, Layfon already conducted ‘good’ deeds even with his survival mindset intact. Starting from ep 1 he already had this kind of ‘mindset’ but he still manage to do good as seen in ep 2, 5, 7 and 8. Nina should’ve considered this issue more thoroughly.
It's easy with clear mind...Nina was too occupied to think about that...not to mention her anger about the situation. We(with clear heads and more information) can't judge people who's IN the situation and they can't think as clearly as us because of that.

No, all of them were bums. Yes that includes Felli back. All of them lack motivation where Nina failed to bring the best out of them. It changes when Layfon arrives , Layfon showed his ‘I AM HAX’ scene in ep 2. Then afterwards the squad started to grow around Layfon instead of Nina. Yes the character that grew includes Nina herself. Harley could conduct experiments on the dites, Sharnid tagging along with Layfon’s popularity, and Felli overcomes her selfishness.
Actually the platoon just formed if i remember well and Nina managed to convince that lazy Sharnid to join her platoon. So Sharnid and Felli officially members only a short time ago.The 16th platoon's captain's reactions clearly indicates that. So actually it was both Nina's and Layfon's(uncanny) accomplishment.Without Nina's organisation the cooperation of the platoon stays at the level of ep 6(where they lost because Layfon was tired and injured) and Layfon may have died at ep 7(despite Felli's great support). Layfon only convinced Nina and gave more room for the platoon to improve.


That’s interpretation or speculation, while the obvious were Layfon being motivated by the trio, which I think, represent the civilian that he should or want to protect.
I agree with that.



Lol lol Okay, so you don’t like her personality eventhough she had contributions on saving tons of lives. Fine by me. 

Sorry, but it's a pretty screwed up logic to think somone isn't hatable if he/she saves lives. Someone's personality does a lot with it. If it's or a part of it unlikable for somone then he/she may hates that person.


Even at the cost of his friends, that’s what the early part ep 16 shown us. Yes, she’s a paladin that willing to sacrifice herself for a greater good, but in doing so she’s willing to not consider the well being of his friends, but rather treat them as an asset to achieve for victory.

Even at the cost of his friends? You obviously misses something about her. She rushed out recklessly and did everything she could by herself in the past because she didn't want anyone to get hurt. She's willing to burden herself with every weight even if it kills her. Layfon became the first person she could and must lean on. That's the main reason she thought about the success of inter-platoon match at first when she saw Layfon injured. And she hates herself for it. The Nina you draw totaly other than actually is in the anime. You draw a selfish, glory-seeking, manipulative woman. Now that's what Nina tries to never become!

Ultramarinus
2009-05-20, 13:44
No. At the start of ep 10 where Felli detected a lifeforce (goat-chan) Layfon proposed that he should be the one checking because of the potential danger from bugs. Nina flatly refused because she was still pissed and ignored the input from a veteran and was asked by Sharnid about it. Layfon later ignored her orders because he felt the threat probability was too severe.

Only at the end she accepted him with her unique conversations exchange.
Gorneo proposed going there to investigate, Nina agreed. Layton butted in, pointing out to danger. But you must recall that it was their duty to make a survey of the city. When they went back, what would they tell to the president? "We saw life signs and chickened out, we have no idea what it is"? Sharnid just says "is it ok?". He makes no comment. Layton head rushes into the place when Felli detects, Nina just tells him to wait, a normal response.

Oh and later on, Felli speaks her mind about him trying to conceal his actions as selfish to others but actually cares. There ya go, one point for Felli. :p So Nina realized it was like that.
No, all of them were bums. Yes that includes Felli back. All of them lack motivation where Nina failed to bring the best out of them. It changes when Layfon arrives , Layfon showed his ‘I AM HAX’ scene in ep 2. Then afterwards the squad started to grow around Layfon instead of Nina. Yes the character that grew includes Nina herself. Harley could conduct experiments on the dites, Sharnid tagging along with Layfon’s popularity, and Felli overcomes her selfishness.

It’s not Nina, it’s Layfon’s. The one thing Nina succeeded so far is to keep the top dog in check in terms of behaviour.
Layfon himself was an unmotivated bum, he first shows his god-mode because he witnesses Nina getting overwhelmed by the opposition even though she doesn't give up. Later on ep 5 it was similar. As Layfon progressed, Felli had to follow suit. Sharnid then goes "what the hell, I'll keep up to look cool". Harley was already looking for work to do. The president may have expected such a chain reaction. Layfon by himself would disguise himself as a useless bum without Nina's challenges brought upon them.

Before the events with Nina on ep 9, Layfon already conducted ‘good’ deeds even with his survival mindset intact. Starting from ep 1 he already had this kind of ‘mindset’ but he still manage to do good as seen in ep 2, 5, 7 and 8. Nina should’ve considered this issue more thoroughly.
Then you should go check their conversation in ep 9 again, he makes this "I AM EVIL!!!" face while he states he has no regrets. Nina couldn't see through his deceit but she's not the only one.
That’s interpretation or speculation, while the obvious were Layfon being motivated by the trio, which I think, represent the civilian that he should or want to protect.
In any case, Nina confronts him like that and he wouldn't have to see the empty streets and think "a reason to fight.." to himself if Nina said "I'm a platoon commander but hell yea, let's go hide like wussies". That's for sure.

Er, okay, where she could’ve wait or fall back for a bit to wait for backup.
You know how much she cares about Czellni, she loves her like a little sister. It's understandable that she got emotional.
Lol lol Okay, so you don’t like her personality eventhough she had contributions on saving tons of lives. Fine by me.
I don't deny what she did but she should have done those contributions as her job in any case. Everyone else did as much or more compared to their capability. I don't like her motivation and intention, that's all.
Even at the cost of his friends, that’s what the early part ep 16 shown us. Yes, she’s a paladin that willing to sacrifice herself for a greater good, but in doing so she’s willing to not consider the well being of his friends, but rather treat them as an asset to achieve for victory.
Once more I have to repeat: They're not high-schoolers in Tokyo. They belong to military platoons which are the city's defense against outside threats. And I told about Nina's objective to secure a mine in inter-city match. Loss means the city is gone, Czellni dies as well. She's the commander of her squad and befriending her inferiors won't mean that she'll go easy on them. Recall Sgt Hartman from Full Metal Jacket? She gotta play that role for them even if they're friends.

TrueKnight
2009-05-20, 14:11
@ wilivereb:

- She lacks cool headedness.
- The platoon improves mostly, because of Layfon. She was included on that improvement. That’s my whole point
- ok.
- ok, to each on his own then; and


You draw a selfish, glory-seeking, manipulative woman. Now that's what Nina tries to never become!

Her goal was to make her team to reach top spot, she relied on Layfon solely for his powers. Those traits were there you know. Right now she’s at a transition period.

Now then,

Nina agreed. Layton butted in, pointing out to danger.

Actually, Layfon proposed Nina to used Felli’s forte to further check the city’s premises, if there are dangers, he’ll immediately dispose them. This was what Nina refused. To suppress a potential danger. And luckily Layfon went in alone to further diss out the goat.


Layfon himself was an unmotivated bum, he first shows his god-mode because he witnesses Nina getting overwhelmed by the opposition even though she doesn't give up. Later on ep 5 it was similar. As Layfon progressed, Felli had to follow suit. Sharnid then goes "what the hell, I'll keep up to look cool". Harley was already looking for work to do. The president may have expected such a chain reaction.

Yes Layfon is the primary driver and then Nina went emo mode while the others grow.

Layfon by himself would disguise himself as a useless bum without Nina's challenges brought upon them.

He went god-mode to safe a half to death beaten Nina, and later to save his trio friends in ep 5.

Then you should go check their conversation in ep 9 again, he makes this "I AM EVIL!!!" face while he states he has no regrets. Nina couldn't see through his deceit but she's not the only one.

I’m not disputing that particular fact, I merely pointed out his past merits from ep 1 until ep 7, of which he already had his “I AM EVILL!!” principal but still manage to save Zuellni’s and the platoons. That showed who he really is in terms of survival.

In any case, Nina confronts him like that and he wouldn't have to see the empty streets and think "a reason to fight.." to himself if Nina said "I'm a platoon commander but hell yea, let's go hide like wussies". That's for sure.

Yes, which he did. Only after he discovers the silence of the city he remembered his trio friends which bring back his motivations to fight.

You know how much she cares about Czellni, she loves her like a little sister. It's understandable that she got emotional.

I guess so, even though he views Layfon otherwise, as a weapon that is (ep 16). In terms of value Zuellni is a city’s generator supporting thousands of civilians and of course she couldn’t view Layfon as the same.

I don't deny what she did but she should have done those contributions as her job in any case. Everyone else did as much or more compared to their capability. I don't like her motivation and intention, that's all.

k.

Once more I have to repeat: They're not high-schoolers in Tokyo. They belong to military platoons which are the city's defense against outside threats. And I told about Nina's objective to secure a mine in inter-city match. Loss means the city is gone, Czellni dies as well. She's the commander of her squad and befriending her inferiors won't mean that she'll go easy on them. Recall Sgt Hartman from Full Metal Jacket? She gotta play that role for them even if they're friends.

Welcome to military. Where friends are tools even for Nina.

Ultramarinus
2009-05-20, 14:39
Actually, Layfon proposed Nina to used Felli’s forte to further check the city’s premises, if there are dangers, he’ll immediately dispose them. This was what Nina refused. To suppress a potential danger. And luckily Layfon went in alone to further diss out the goat.
Felli herself said that she couldn't discern what it is, that's why Gorneo proposed surveying and Nina agreed.
Yes Layfon is the primary driver and then Nina went emo mode while the others grow.
Hmm? Care to elaborate?

He went god-mode to safe a half to death beaten Nina, and later to save his trio friends in ep 5.
He was actively trying to blend into the surroundings and not attract attention from day 1, he awakens because of Nina's constant stimulative efforts. Be it during matches or monster attack.
I’m not disputing that particular fact, I merely pointed out his past merits from ep 1 until ep 7, of which he already had his “I AM EVILL!!” principal but still manage to save Zuellni’s and the platoons. That showed who he really is in terms of survival.
Alright, so everyone isn't a lie detector. It's not just Nina who gets deceived after all. But she had to confront him due to her responsibility as her superior.

Yes, which he did. Only after he discovers the silence of the city he remembered his trio friends which bring back his motivations to fight.
So Nina was right to refuse his proposal, I see that we came to an agreement there.
I guess so, even though he views Layfon otherwise, as a weapon that is (ep 16). In terms of value Zuellni is a city’s generator supporting thousands of civilians and of course she couldn’t view Layfon as the same.
Uh, apples and oranges there. He got admitted into hospital and they're told he'll undergo an operation and recover. Czellni is actively threatened by something nearby.
Welcome to military. Where friends are tools even for Nina.
They're not just friends, but also superiors and their subordinates. I don't see how you can refuse something like that.

TrueKnight
2009-05-20, 15:04
Felli herself said that she couldn't discern what it is, that's why Gorneo proposed surveying and Nina agreed.

Geez, Right after Gorneo proposed Layfon interfered insisting Felli should further check the premises and should there are hostiles he’d immediately dispose it. Nina refused Layfon’s offer and follow Gorneo’s advice even though Layfon mentioned that there’s a possibility of crazy monster running loose. Please watch the scene.

Hmm? Care to elaborate?

What I mean Nina wasn’t the one thats responsible in developing squad 17 as character. If Layfon hadn’t showed up they would remain as bums. After Layfon went hax she just goes jealous over her subordinate. A fine example indeed.

He was actively trying to blend into the surroundings and not attract attention from day 1, he awakens because of Nina's constant stimulative efforts. Be it during matches or monster attack.

No, he stayed reluctant even after Nina’s aggressive motivations. He awakens mostly because (i) Nina was half beaten to death in ep 2; and (ii) he thought of his girl-friends trio.

Alright, so everyone isn't a lie detector. It's not just Nina who gets deceived after all.

Yes, but guess what? They’re still alive, Zuellni and the squad that is. Because of who I wonder? The ‘evil’ guy.

But she had to confront him due to her responsibility as her superior.

And aggressively attacked his principal despite him having saved Zuellni twice.

So Nina was right to refuse his proposal, I see that we came to an agreement there.

If you mean that the thing that caused Layfon to fight were his trio friends instead of her. Then yes.

Uh, apples and oranges there. He got admitted into hospital and they're told he'll undergo an operation and recover. Czellni is actively threatened by something nearby.

Yeah your right. Too bad she attacked the Haikizoku head on instead of thinking strategy though.

They're not just friends, but also superiors and their subordinates. I don't see how you can refuse something like that.

Yeah, too bad.

Slick_rick
2009-05-20, 15:53
Geez, Right after Gorneo proposed Layfon interfered insisting Felli should further check the premises and should there are hostiles he’d immediately dispose it. Nina refused Layfon’s offer and follow Gorneo’s advice even though Layfon mentioned that there’s a possibility of crazy monster running loose. Please watch the scene.

At the time Nina certainly had reasons to doubt Layfon's motives so I assume her not putting the entire success and failure of the mission in his hands who be a fairly prudent move. Lets cut the pretense. The reason you criticize Nina isn't because she was unjustifiably worried but because the one she doubted was Layfon. We all know in Regios doubting Layfon is akin to sacrilege to some.:rolleyes:


Yes, but guess what? They’re still alive, Zuellni and the squad that is. Because of who I wonder? The ‘evil’ guy.

How was Nina suppose to know this? Does she have to put everything on blind faith? What if he had turned out to be a bad guy? Wouldn't you criticize her for not realizing he was? Seems like Nina is playing with a double-edged sword in your mind.



And aggressively attacked his principal despite him having saved Zuellni twice.

I don't know what having saved Zuellni has to do with her not liking his principals. Sure, if Hitler saved my life I'd be thankful but I doubt you'd be seeing me telling him anything other than his ideals are completely wrong. Layfon certainly isn't Hitler but neither I nor Nina believe that doing whatever it takes to survive an ideal worthy of praise but one certainly to be wary of someone who thinks like that.



If you mean that the thing that caused Layfon to fight were his trio friends instead of her. Then yes.

It was her words that made him think of them. You seem to want to sidestep that fact.


Yeah your right. Too bad she attacked the Haikizoku head on instead of thinking strategy though.

Layfon when confronted by the Haikizoku attacked head on too. He was just much stronger than Nina. Does using your brain not apply to Layfon either then? Nina like Layfon relies on what she knows best. I don't know what else you expect for her in that situation.

Ultramarinus
2009-05-20, 15:55
Geez, Right after Gorneo proposed Layfon interfered insisting Felli should further check the premises and should there are hostiles he’d immediately dispose it. Nina refused Layfon’s offer and follow Gorneo’s advice even though Layfon mentioned that there’s a possibility of crazy monster running loose. Please watch the scene.
I did, she acts cold so it can be interpreted like the way you did. Wrapping it all up, she still changed her mind even though Layfon tried to actively deceive her into thinking like that. She cannot be expected to agree to what he told he did was right. Noone else except Leerin did, even those who knew Layfon for years.
What I mean Nina wasn’t the one thats responsible in developing squad 17 as character. If Layfon hadn’t showed up they would remain as bums. After Layfon went hax she just goes jealous over her subordinate. A fine example indeed.
And if Nina wasn't there he would remain a bum. :) After Layfon activated god-mode, she increased her effort to get more powerful. What makes you think it's jealousy?
No, he stayed reluctant even after Nina’s aggressive motivations. He awakens mostly because (i) Nina was half beaten to death in ep 2; and (ii) he thought of his girl-friends trio.

Yeah, because they act like bums while their commander is forced to wage a one-man war. And when she rushes to defend the city, not caring about dying.
Yes, but guess what? They’re still alive, Zuellni and the squad that is. Because of who I wonder? The ‘evil’ guy.
So this cool dude who moved to the neighborhood is a nice person and helps people around was in fact a criminal you learn from your co-worker. When you confront him, he says "I stole a bank and killed its guard, I had to do that in order to survive". Would you still say "that's alright man, I met you just recently but you're a good guy"?

And aggressively attacked his principal despite him having saved Zuellni twice.
He stood back behind his sins, he didn't explain the circumstances leading to them.
If you mean that the thing that caused Layfon to fight were his trio friends instead of her. Then yes.

He decided to fight for all of them, it was still Nina's action that led to that.
Yeah your right. Too bad she attacked the Haikizoku head on instead of thinking strategy though.
She didn't have the means to call for help at that point. That's why they didn't even know what happened to her.
Yeah, too bad.
No idea what you mean there to be honest.

Now, we began to run in circles a bit so I feel like asking you a question based on a remark done about you earlier: You were called a Nina fan before, what exactly do you like about her?

willyvereb
2009-05-20, 16:03
@ wilivereb:

A She lacks cool headedness.
B The platoon improves mostly, because of Layfon. She was included on that improvement. That’s my whole point
C ok.
D ok, to each on his own then; and


E
Her goal was to make her team to reach top spot, she relied on Layfon solely for his powers. Those traits were there you know. Right now she’s at a transition period.

Now then,
...

You seriously try to dirty a character? Or we can't understand each other.
You broght up some good facts but you totally show Nina in a negative light.
I reply to some of your points.
A.) You're right, but you position your expectation too high. It needs a serious and cool headed thinker to actually understand that. Felli only accepts what she hears because:
1. she's distanced from almost everything. Including the military arts, communities etc...
2. She loves Layfon
3. She's always cool headed(if not then she must went out her anger almost immediately...extreme emootions a bad thing for her Nen-i control)
4. She may thought something similar could happened in Layfon's past before He told the truth.
B.)Platoon improves? What do you mean? Battle strenght? Naturally. Layfon is an one-man army so it's natural. But actually it was mainly because of Nina(and maybe Leerin's letters) that Layfon actually used his powers. Through Layfon Nina indirectly influenced Felli to use her powers too.
Regarding the teamwork it's mainly Nina's work(actually often just in the backgrounds without showing Nina's work). So the improvement of the platoon directly and indirectly thanks to her. Perhaps without Layfon the platoon would be average at it's best. Layfon, Nina and the situations that made the platoon the thing now it is.
E.) That's one of her developments. She relies on someone. She dares to give that role. If you say that Nina used Layfon then pretty much everyone used him. Felli as her private slave, Karian as his FM buster, Nina as their key fighter, Sharnid to raise his popularity, the Queen(obvious), the governer of the orphanage...pretty much almost everyone. But Layfon said he don't mind being used if it's for the sake of a thing he agrees on.

TrueKnight
2009-05-20, 22:16
The reason you criticize Nina isn't because she was unjustifiably worried but because the one she doubted was Layfon.

Not exactly, I criticize her because she unjustifiably disapprove of Layfon’s ‘ideal’ or ‘mindset’ or ‘philosophy’ without considering the feats he had done in Zuellni in ep 5 and 7 as I stated to Ultramarinus before. Besides he has been punished accordingly by the Queen.

What if he had turned out to be a bad guy? Wouldn't you criticize her for not realizing he was? Seems like Nina is playing with a double-edged sword in your mind.

It’s a double edge sword as you speak. But in ep 9, where she already knew what’s Layfon capable of from ep 1 – 8, , and so far up to ep 9 Layfon hadn’t done anything deemed as ‘evil’ but instead he saved Zuellni’s twice say, I’d say its alright.

I don't know what having saved Zuellni has to do with her not liking his principals. Sure, if Hitler saved my life I'd be thankful but I doubt you'd be seeing me telling him anything other than his ideals are completely wrong. Layfon certainly isn't Hitler but neither I nor Nina believe that doing whatever it takes to survive an ideal worthy of praise but one certainly to be wary of someone who thinks like that

Gah man, you bring up one of the most extreme example. Okay if ‘Hitler’ had saved millions of citizens including friends and families of New York twice from alien assault I’d be wary too, but considering his expertise in near-future with potential of saving more millions again from alien attacks and like he’s the only one capable on doing it around the area so…

It was her words that made him think of them. You seem to want to sidestep that fact.

Okay so Nina gave him speech and telling him he’s a coward and he should just hide and get lost for not using his power. Which he did, Layfon then walked into an empty street and started to think about the trio girlfriends. I don’t it was because of Nina’s words.


Layfon when confronted by the Haikizoku attacked head on too. He was just much stronger than Nina. Does using your brain not apply to Layfon either then? Nina like Layfon relies on what she knows best.

Well she should’ve realized the Haikizoku potential danger in ep 14 and that he’s not as strong as Layfon but instead she went head on.

I did, she acts cold so it can be interpreted like the way you did.

Uh okay.

And if Nina wasn't there he would remain a bum. After Layfon activated god-mode, she increased her effort to get more powerful. What makes you think it's jealousy?

So all of them are bums and there would be no Regios in the first place. Layfon would remain an idiot who studied General arts and Nina would’ve lost the fights with the 16th. The jealously aspect of Nina could be seen in ep 3, ep 6 and 7 where one of them she decided to cancel one of the training.


So this cool dude who moved to the neighborhood is a nice person and helps people around was in fact a criminal you learn from your co-worker. When you confront him, he says "I stole a bank and killed its guard, I had to do that in order to survive". Would you still say "that's alright man, I met you just recently but you're a good guy"?

If he is the only guy who’s capable on saving let’s say all the citizens in New York when nobody else could, then probably yes. Provided he had already been punished, and didn’t do anything bad until now.

He stood back behind his sins, he didn't explain the circumstances leading to them.

He remains a good boy up until ep 9. I don’t see why he should change his principle considering all his feats. It’s a double edge-sword as slick_rick mentioned but even with his mindset intact from ep 1 he isn’t strayed off yet. It's his survival philosophy.

Yeah, because they act like bums while their commander is forced to wage a one-man war. And when she rushes to defend the city, not caring about dying.

No, Nina was supported by the rest of the platoons. If there’s a one-man war, it’s Layfon.

He decided to fight for all of them, it was still Nina's action that led to that.

In ep 2 it was Nina or a half-beaten to death comrade, in ep 5 Nina told him to get lost. It was the empty street where he started to think about his trio friends

Now, we began to run in circles a bit so I feel like asking you a question based on a remark done about you earlier: You were called a Nina fan before, what exactly do you like about her?

In a ‘positive’ light: She's using her and others' powers to protect the city, the fairy and its citizens. She doesn't just use others and watches from the back, she puts herself in the thick of the battle without batting an eye. She has to make sure her platoon comes out on top of the matches so that they can make a head start in inter-city battle and prevent the city from disbanding. She needs to win but she still won't take shortcuts just for the sake of it,

rstrafford
2009-05-20, 23:58
How does Layfon getting punished by the queen have any bearing on how Nina treats him? Besides, by criticizing Nina's behavior towards Layfon, aren't you guilty of the same thing? I don't see how you condemn her actions when they are really justifiable. Nina isn't omniescent; she doesn't see what we do. All she knows is what she hears from Layfon and he's not telling her everything, so naturally she wouldn't have a clear picture of what's going on, especially when Layfon feels shame over the entire event as it is. And because he does, she probably thinks it was something really bad.

And just because Layfon saved the city doesn't automatically clear him of anything; Roy saved Leerin, and we can hardly say that he was good. Nina couldn't be sure about Layfon's intentions, not when they've only been on the same platoon for a short time and when he's already lied about his abilities.

Slick_rick
2009-05-21, 00:11
Not exactly, I criticize her because she unjustifiably disapprove of Layfon’s ‘ideal’ or ‘mindset’ or ‘philosophy’ without considering the feats he had done in Zuellni in ep 5 and 7 as I stated to Ultramarinus before. Besides he has been punished accordingly by the Queen.

I don't see how she was unjustified. From her POV there certainly had a lot of reason to be wary. Certainly he saved the city but the reasoning behind him saving the city is definitely called into question. If all he cares about is surviving then he saved the city only because it was for himself to survive. If the time comes where him surviving entails letting the city be destroyed then that can certainly become a problem. Also he was not the clear with his actual reasoning but instead only played more into the role of an uncaring and cold person when Nina confronted him with the accusations. She also never denied his way of thinking she only said she didn't know if she could work with him because of it.

That a pedophile has been punished by the government certainly doesn't mean that "I" have to allow my child to go around him or associate with them. "You" might chose differently but that doesn't mean my reasoning is unjustified in anyway.





It’s a double edge sword as you speak. But in ep 9, where she already knew what’s Layfon capable of from ep 1 – 8, , and so far up to ep 9 Layfon hadn’t done anything deemed as ‘evil’ but instead he saved Zuellni’s twice say, I’d say its alright.

She didn't have your blind faith. I don't know how that makes her any more or less unjustified in her reasoning. For her point of view Layfon was certainly shaping up to be a dark, shady and untrustworthy character.




Gah man, you bring up one of the most extreme example. Okay if ‘Hitler’ had saved millions of citizens including friends and families of New York twice from alien assault I’d be wary too, but considering his expertise in near-future with potential of saving more millions again from alien attacks and like he’s the only one capable on doing it around the area so…

I don't get what this has to do with agree or disagree with someone's philosophy. Are you trying to say you'd use Layfon like Kalian does even if you don't agree with him? Certainly that's your choice but I don't know how Nina deciding she's not to type to use another person just because of there abilities when she doesn't trust then is so unjustifiable.



Okay so Nina gave him speech and telling him he’s a coward and he should just hide and get lost for not using his power. Which he did, Layfon then walked into an empty street and started to think about the trio girlfriends. I don’t it was because of Nina’s words.

The connection isn't hard to see. Nina tells the the power they gained was to protect those who are important to them. Then while walking in the street he asks himself "A reason for me to fight" and then his friends faces flash into his mind. I think there an obvious connection there don't you? Why is Layfon even walking down the street at that moment? Wasn't he just a minute ago when talking to Nina all about getting the hell out of the city? Where were the faces of his friends then? I certainly can't make you see what you don't want to but this certainly wasn't an abstract scenes by any means.



Well she should’ve realized the Haikizoku potential danger in ep 14 and that he’s not as strong as Layfon but instead she went head on.

I don't what you expect her to do. She was sucked into a place where Felli's petals couldn't follow. She couldn't call in for help and there didn't look to be any way for her to escape. Her options were fairly limited to run, fight, or ,apparently the best option in retrospect, pray. I think she chose the one that best fit her even if she had little chance. She's never backed down from Layfon so I don't see her backing down to the Haikizoku either.

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 00:46
I don't see how she was unjustified. From her POV there certainly had a lot of reason to be wary. Certainly he saved the city but the reasoning behind him saving the city is definitely called into question. If all he cares about is surviving then he saved the city only because it was for himself to survive. If the time comes where him surviving entails letting the city be destroyed then that can certainly become a problem. Also he was not the clear with his actual reasoning but instead only played more into the role of an uncaring and cold person when Nina confronted him with the accusations. She also never denied his way of thinking she only said she didn't know if she could work with him because of it.

The thing is when ep 9 happened, he had saved Zuellni twice, caring and willing to fend off the FMs alone in ep7. Layfon way of survival was what I posted a few pages back

The ‘surviving together with friends’ has always been his philosophy right from the start and it didn’t happen after he arrive in Zuellni.

Now the question raised here is how he does it. Lawful or unlawful? Good or bad?.

Back in Grendan he thought of his orphanage and to survive they needed money. So no matter what the paths are, he’d do it be it how ‘unlawful’ or ‘bad’ might it seems, just if he could get the money. Resulting of him being exiled and deemed as a criminal and nearly received capital punishment if it weren’t for the amnesty given by the Queen. His intentions were good but it’s the way he exercised them.

Now in Zuellni, his philosophy is still there, but because of his teammates (he used on fighting alone)… and someone who will keep him in check all the time aka none other than our captain, he has to do his ‘survival’ philosophy in a ‘lawful’ and ‘good’ way.



That a pedophile has been punished by the government certainly doesn't mean that "I" have to allow my child to go around him or associate with them. "You" might chose differently but that doesn't mean my reasoning is unjustified in anyway.

You don’t have too, it’s your right. What Nina did is basically forcing her ideals onto him with a possible threat of expulsion. And if you put the situation similar to Layfon this ‘pedophile’s the only one capable to save the city from a massive horde of zombies/aliens/dangers whereas nobody else can’t.

She didn't have your blind faith. I don't know how that makes her any more or less unjustified in her reasoning. For her point of view Layfon was certainly shaping up to be a dark, shady and untrustworthy character.

He had saved tens of thousands of lives whereas Nina couldn’t. In her views Layfon may shaping to be a dark character. But nevertheless he had saved her and Zuellni twice using his survival instinct I posted above.

Certainly that's your choice but I don't know how Nina deciding she's not to type to use another person just because of there abilities when she doesn't trust then is so unjustifiable.

But should a massive horde of FM’s strikes again she’s bound to rely on his powers again. Because he’s the one that capable of doing that. For the sake of tens of thousands Nina should’ve willing to let this off. Er…which she did actually in the end and remain pissed about it.

The connection isn't hard to see. Nina tells the the power they gained was to protect those who are important to them. Then while walking in the street he asks himself "A reason for me to fight" and then his friends faces flash into his mind. I think there an obvious connection there don't you? Why is Layfon even walking down the street at that moment? Wasn't he just a minute ago when talking to Nina all about getting the hell out of the city? Where were the faces of his friends then? I certainly can't make you see what you don't want to but this certainly wasn't an abstract scenes by any means.

Layfon told Nina to evacuate or escape to the shelter, the shelter as seen with the scene with Narki was around the street I think. Don’t know if its really connected and after rewatching that scene around 2 times I think I know what you mean though it occur only after you have pointed this out and I’m still not convinced.

I don't what you expect her to do. She was sucked into a place where Felli's petals couldn't follow. She couldn't call in for help and there didn't look to be any way for her to escape. Her options were fairly limited to run, fight, or ,apparently the best option in retrospect, pray. I think she chose the one that best fit her even if she had little chance. She's never backed down from Layfon so I don't see her backing down to the Haikizoku either.

Which ultimately resulted to her being possessed and getting teleported to Myath along with the fairy.

zibi88
2009-05-21, 01:22
heh but its fun too look how Nina-lovers are throwing away everything others say about her (the bad things without admitiing rights ) trying to make her a pure-crystal character that is allways right and her own actions dont couse harm to others

I could say only one thing.... Nina will never understand Layfon as much as Leerin does...

Leerin (like layfon is 15years old.... nina 19y) knows way more about the surrounding world (the reality) than Nina (which starts to understand it a little in end of ep19 while flying in the sky >_< wow she really needs to see something with her own eyes to start belive/understand [talkign to her wont make her understand])

Hmm I wonder about ep20.... it seems she is unable to tell everyone that she becomed haikizoku host....... seriously in my eyes she is mean !!!!!! she was demanding the painfull (for Layfon) truth about his past (forcefully digging up the buried past... without thinking over layfons feelings) later she complained about it with her own ideals and started to hate layfon for what he did.....

and here Nina diesppeared for 1-2days along with zerenii.... makeing layfon undergo mental pain (he blamed himself for her disapperance) and makeing him fight waves of monsters even throught he was still injured..... and now she returns and doesnt want to tell abut the truth.........<--- she is damn selfish here.... people should know what happenedd (layfon had to tell in order to make better teamwork.... so she should tell it too in order to make team cooperation better... [after 1-2days disapperance they demand and anser after all]

So nina should tell them the truth and not make it look like 1way ticket that makes: everyone around her have to tell her all their pasts and secrets while she doesnt have to say anything (maybe the haikizoku would make them kinda worry but wouldnt they be more worried if soemthign started to happen with nina and they dont know what is the couse of that)

willyvereb
2009-05-21, 01:29
The thing is when ep 9 happened, he had saved Zuellni twice, caring and willing to fend off the FMs alone in ep7. Layfon way of survival was what I posted a few pages back

The ‘surviving together with friends’ has always been his philosophy right from the start and it didn’t happen after he arrive in Zuellni.

Now the question raised here is how he does it. Lawful or unlawful? Good or bad?.

Back in Grendan he thought of his orphanage and to survive they needed money. So no matter what the paths are, he’d do it be it how ‘unlawful’ or ‘bad’ might it seems, just if he could get the money. Resulting of him being exiled and deemed as a criminal and nearly received capital punishment if it weren’t for the amnesty given by the Queen. His intentions were good but it’s the way he exercised them.

Now in Zuellni, his philosophy is still there, but because of his teammates (he used on fighting alone)… and someone who will keep him in check all the time aka none other than our captain, he has to do his ‘survival’ philosophy in a ‘lawful’ and ‘good’ way.


I see your point but you still can't blame Nina for that. She was confused by all the things she heard.Imagine a situation where you find out that your new friend killed his parents and there's a warrant of caption on him at his previous country? Your friend don't deny it, even so he ensures your suspiction. You known him as a kind and good person, but you can't know him very well after just a short time doesn't it? In truth he's innocent, but he not even told you the situation clearly. I think you would make the same decision as Nina with Layfon. Not to mention Nina has quite a lot of responsibilites on her shoulder to simply ignore that.



You don’t have too, it’s your right. What Nina did is basically forcing her ideals onto him with a possible threat of expulsion. And if you put the situation similar to Layfon this ‘pedophile’s the only one capable to save the city from a massive horde of zombies/aliens/dangers whereas nobody else can’t.
I can't argue with you on that because we can't agree on it no matter what points we bring up.



He had saved tens of thousands of lives whereas Nina couldn’t. In her views Layfon may shaping to be a dark character. But nevertheless he had saved her and Zuellni twice using his survival instinct I posted above.

But should a massive horde of FM’s strikes again she’s bound to rely on his powers again. Because he’s the one that capable of doing that. For the sake of tens of thousands Nina should’ve willing to let this off. Er…which she did actually in the end and remain pissed about it.
Actually Nina understood that the City needs his power, but it doesn't mean she must like him. And if she can't get on well with him then she's only a nuissance to him and he's a problem in the platoon with his different attitude. That's why she adviced that they should part ways. And in something you'r mistaken: It's not neccessary for Layfon to be in the 17th platoon. Actually he could act as a special soldier of Zuellni and Karian could force Felli to work with him. So even if he left the platoon it wouldn't have meant to leave Zuellni unprotected by him.



Layfon told Nina to evacuate or escape to the shelter, the shelter as seen with the scene with Narki was around the street I think. Don’t know if its really connected and after rewatching that scene around 2 times I think I know what you mean though it occur only after you have pointed this out and I’m still not convinced.
Nina has zero experience about Filth Monsters and she can't believe that Layfon has either at that time. Maybe that's why she ignored Layfon's words. Perhaps it's played in the light novels much better. The anime misses many elements and that's why Nina is so bitchy with Layfon without any serious reason.


Which ultimately resulted to her being possessed and getting teleported to Myath along with the fairy.
Actually even if she ran she had little chance to escape that fate. Not to mention that she actually solved the problem a little. The City stopped and didn't move more deeper into the FM hive. If it continoues then even Layfon couldn't protect them for long.

Slick_rick
2009-05-21, 02:18
The thing is when ep 9 happened, he had saved Zuellni twice, caring and willing to fend off the FMs alone in ep7. Layfon way of survival was what I posted a few pages back

The ‘surviving together with friends’ has always been his philosophy right from the start and it didn’t happen after he arrive in Zuellni.

Now the question raised here is how he does it. Lawful or unlawful? Good or bad?.

Back in Grendan he thought of his orphanage and to survive they needed money. So no matter what the paths are, he’d do it be it how ‘unlawful’ or ‘bad’ might it seems, just if he could get the money. Resulting of him being exiled and deemed as a criminal and nearly received capital punishment if it weren’t for the amnesty given by the Queen. His intentions were good but it’s the way he exercised them.

Now in Zuellni, his philosophy is still there, but because of his teammates (he used on fighting alone)… and someone who will keep him in check all the time aka none other than our captain, he has to do his ‘survival’ philosophy in a ‘lawful’ and ‘good’ way.



The problem is Nina has no way of knowing his "true philosophy" nor does she have any reason to believe that he won't at some point decide to return to the "unlawful" and "bad" way once it suits his needs.



You don’t have too, it’s your right. What Nina did is basically forcing her ideals onto him with a possible threat of expulsion. And if you put the situation similar to Layfon this ‘pedophile’s the only one capable to save the city from a massive horde of zombies/aliens/dangers whereas nobody else can’t.

Nina certainly wasn't forcing her ideals on to him with a threat. She could only be threatening him if she felt that the platoon meant a lot to him which she had no reason to believe it did. She certainly didn't tell him he had to changes his ideals in anyway. She just said she didn't know if she could work with him anymore. Certainly if two people morals differ so much that there might arise problems between them then something must be done. Don't you think?

Also I might certainly make use of a pedophile if need to save the city but certainly after it's been saved I might chose to next time take my chances if I don't completely trust that person. My problem is your characterize her actions as irrational. It makes me wonder if you truly understand the meaning of the word. Yes, she chose different than you would and problem even I would. I would probably use Layfon as much as I could and kill him off once he's not needed or becomes a liability. Nina isn't like me but there is certainly good reasoning behind her actions.


But should a massive horde of FM’s strikes again she’s bound to rely on his powers again. Because he’s the one that capable of doing that. For the sake of tens of thousands Nina should’ve willing to let this off. Er…which she did actually in the end and remain pissed about it.

Certainly they might need his power later on but I don't see how he's needs to be in Nina's team for them to utilize him. Send him over to another team. For the sake of tens of thousands how much would you allow him to get away with? Might you not try to find a different way than relying on one person to save you every time you were in danger or even just take your chances without him, no matter how slim they were? Do you believe that everyone would/should chose the same path as you? People's morals are undeniably different. I don't know if that means her's or others morals are wrong/irrational because they would chose differently.

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 02:47
In a ‘positive’ light:

She's using her and others' powers to protect the city, the fairy and its citizens. She doesn't just use others and watches from the back, she puts herself in the thick of the battle without batting an eye. She has to make sure her platoon comes out on top of the matches so that they can make a head start in inter-city battle and prevent the city from disbanding. She needs to win but she still won't take shortcuts just for the sake of it,

Others have given very detailed and sensible replies to other topics, so I'll rather point out to inconsistencies about what you're constantly bringing up:

So showing what I have written earlier as a response to your criticisms, you accept these and the following are your conflicting ideas:

+ She's using herself and others to protect the city.
- You complain about her using people like tools. You complain about her efforts to get her duties done. You claim that she's only doing it for glory and jealousy.
+ She has to do anything legal to improve her squad and win matches.
- You complain about her using her subordinates like assets. You complain about her confronting the 'free radical' element of her team, who may pose a threat to these objectives.

So which shall it be? It feels like you've wandered off the coast while you tried to criticize basically everything Nina stands for. By any means, I don't see how you like her while denouncing her every aspect that's listed as "Nina in a positive light".

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 03:02
The problem is Nina has no way of knowing his "true philosophy" nor does she have any reason to believe that he won't at some point decide to return to the "unlawful" and "bad" way once it suits his needs.

True, but at the very least she should’ve had taken the entire result and feats she witnessed from him from ep 1 and 8 into account, at that time unfortunately, she didn’t.


Nina certainly wasn't forcing her ideals on to him with a threat. She could only be threatening him if she felt that the platoon meant a lot to him which she had no reason to believe it did. She certainly didn't tell him he had to changes his ideals in anyway. She just said she didn't know if she could work with him anymore. Certainly if two people morals differ so much that there might arise problems between them then something must be done. Don't you think?

Well I agree about the conflicting part, but to summarize it in ep 9 she wouldn’t accept his way his thinking, which resulted that she didn’t know if they could work together anymore.

Also I might certainly make use of a pedophile if need to save the city but certainly after it's been saved I might chose to next time take my chances if I don't completely trust that person. My problem is your characterize her actions as irrational. It makes me wonder if you truly understand the meaning of the word. Yes, she chose different than you would and problem even I would. I would probably use Layfon as much as I could and kill him off once he's not needed or becomes a liability. Nina isn't like me but there is certainly good reasoning behind her actions.

Certainly they might need his power later on but I don't see how he's needs to be in Nina's team for them to utilize him. Send him over to another team. For the sake of tens of thousands how much would you allow him to get away with? Might you not try to find a different way than relying on one person to save you every time you were in danger or even just take your chances without him, no matter how slim they were? Do you believe that everyone would/should chose the same path as you? People's morals are undeniably different. I don't know if that means her's or others morals are wrong/irrational because they would chose differently.

The whole Grendan ordeal is a thing of the past where he did his crime as a Heaven Blade within Grendan’s jurisdiction. He had duly received his punishment as an exile. Afterwards he went to Zuellni to start a new life. Layfon hadn’t done any mistake or crimes that could be deemed as unlawful within Zuellni’s from ep 1- ep 9, in fact its quite the opposite. He saved the city from a full fms onslaught and contributed the most in killing the dragon bug. He’s a hero instead of a criminal. Though his ‘motives’ still remain questionable for Nina.

Well for me to be honest, if a criminal was already gone through a punishment at some place and arrive at a city, got a job and didn’t do anything wrong in the process while staying there, then at some point an alien assault came and then he saved the city singlehandedly resulting into probably millions saved, including loved ones; then I’ll gladly accept his service regardless what his ‘motives’ are. The city need his expertise no matter what. Especially in world like CSR where horde of hungry bugs could easily consumed an entire city unless the city is of course a broken hax like Grendan.


So showing what I have written earlier as a response to your criticisms, you accept these and the following are your conflicting ideas:

+ She's using herself and others to protect the city.
- You complain about her using people like tools. You complain about her efforts to get her duties done. You claim that she's only doing it for glory and jealousy.
+ She has to do anything legal to improve her squad and win matches.
- You complain about her using her subordinates like assets. You complain about her confronting the 'free radical' element of her team, who may pose a threat to these objectives.

So which shall it be? It feels like you've wandered off the coast while you tried to criticize basically everything Nina stands for. By any means, I don't see how you like her while denouncing her every aspect that's listed as "Nina in a positive light".



You asked what made me like her, right? I still do but she’s not without fault. At positive lights there are flaws hidden, she’s too idealistic and forceful. I could’ve the listed the many good things and qualities that she has which hadn’t been posted yes. But that’s another story.

zibi88
2009-05-21, 04:23
I personaly wonder what would Nina do if she was pushed in a corner similar to Layfon..... like if Nina dont drop military arts forever someone will hurt zerenii spirit..... or if nina wont hurt someone Zereni spirit will be hurt/killed

what would Nina do in that situation.... Zerenii fairy is that "important part (kinda like person)" thing for Nina (she wants to protect her).......... Layfons case was similar "kids in orphanage (people)" so he was not fighting for himself but was thinking only about them

The differance between those cases is that "zerenii fairy doesnt need cloths,food,books and paying for the building" so all that Nina was doing was to play with her in machinery room.... and so in Layfons situation is the opposite "kids needed cloths,food,books,medicine and paying for the building" and for that he needed lots of money.... he sacraficed his pride & way of thinking that he is not human....

So personaly I see that Nina was working only for herself without worrying about others like Layfon who was thinking only about Leerin and kids in the orphanage


I know that there are Nina-lovers who will not agree in any way with anyone.... but comapreing Layfon's case with Nina is kinda wrong their lifes were quite opposite (not only about that important part their are fighting for..... but the whole life... layfon had to fight with monsters and his mistake could be his death.... and Nina was safely playing in the inner platoon matches where you cant get killed )

Maybe Layfon had others principles.... like orphanage is more important for him than other people in the city but anyway he was fighting monsters and risking his life for the city so what is wrong in wanting to protect what is important to him...... haveing "important thing to him" gives him motivation never to give up and continue to try hard

Nina never had the protecting whole city on her own mind (not talking about her dreams of "I will protect you zerenii" sicne she couldnt defeat even 1larva bug at the end) like Layfon...... HB have to fight alone outside the Regios city while people are liveing safely in the city meantime like nothing is happening....... failing in protecting is not acceptable whatever monster it is running away is not allowed defeat or die....

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 05:18
True, but at the very least she should’ve had taken the entire result and feats she witnessed from him from ep 1 and 8 into account, at that time unfortunately, she didn’t.
If it was just Gorneo telling about it, she would have reason to doubt. But Layfon himself is clearly admitting and not regretting the claims. Admittance is without any external pressure on him, how wouldn't you believe the man?

The whole Grendan ordeal is a thing of the past where he did his crime as a Heaven Blade within Grendan’s jurisdiction. He had duly received his punishment as an exile. Afterwards he went to Zuellni to start a new life. Layfon hadn’t done any mistake or crimes that could be deemed as unlawful within Zuellni’s from ep 1- ep 9, in fact its quite the opposite. He saved the city from a full fms onslaught and contributed the most in killing the dragon bug. He’s a hero instead of a criminal. Though his ‘motives’ still remain questionable for Nina.

Well for me to be honest, if a criminal was already gone through a punishment at some place and arrive at a city, got a job and didn’t do anything wrong in the process while staying there, then at some point an alien assault came and then he saved the city singlehandedly resulting into probably millions saved, including loved ones; then I’ll gladly accept his service regardless what his ‘motives’ are. The city need his expertise no matter what. Especially in world like CSR where horde of hungry bugs could easily consumed an entire city unless the city is of course a broken hax like Grendan.
Punishment doesn't warrant rehabilitation by itself. It's not a matter of exacting revenge from him for what he did, it's about if he learned his lesson. He says he didn't and that's by itself enough to give second thoughts about working together. I don't know you but I wouldn't work together with a convicted criminal whose crimes defy all I value if I had the chance. It's not like Nina wants him to get exiled, she just would have him replaced to another platoon. This wouldn't have any impact on city's benefit from Layfon. He's happy, she's happy, city happy. Nobody loses anything.
You asked what made me like her, right? I still do but she’s not without fault. At positive lights there are flaws hidden, she’s too idealistic and forceful. I could’ve the listed the many good things and qualities that she has which hadn’t been posted yes. But that’s another story.
You have based all of her motivation on desire of glory and jealousy, I'd like to see her good qualities listed by you. As it seems that the paragraph I wrote isn't really what you like about her.

willyvereb
2009-05-21, 05:40
I personaly wonder what would Nina do if she was pushed in a corner similar to Layfon..... like if Nina dont drop military arts forever someone will hurt zerenii spirit..... or if nina wont hurt someone Zereni spirit will be hurt/killed

what would Nina do in that situation.... Zerenii fairy is that "important part (kinda like person)" thing for Nina (she wants to protect her).......... Layfons case was similar "kids in orphanage (people)" so he was not fighting for himself but was thinking only about them

The differance between those cases is that "zerenii fairy doesnt need cloths,food,books and paying for the building" so all that Nina was doing was to play with her in machinery room.... and so in Layfons situation is the opposite "kids needed cloths,food,books,medicine and paying for the building" and for that he needed lots of money.... he sacraficed his pride & way of thinking that he is not human....

So personaly I see that Nina was working only for herself without worrying about others like Layfon who was thinking only about Leerin and kids in the orphanage


I know that there are Nina-lovers who will not agree in any way with anyone.... but comapreing Layfon's case with Nina is kinda wrong their lifes were quite opposite (not only about that important part their are fighting for..... but the whole life... layfon had to fight with monsters and his mistake could be his death.... and Nina was safely playing in the inner platoon matches where you cant get killed )

Maybe Layfon had others principles.... like orphanage is more important for him than other people in the city but anyway he was fighting monsters and risking his life for the city so what is wrong in wanting to protect what is important to him...... haveing "important thing to him" gives him motivation never to give up and continue to try hard

Nina never had the protecting whole city on her own mind (not talking about her dreams of "I will protect you zerenii" sicne she couldnt defeat even 1larva bug at the end) like Layfon...... HB have to fight alone outside the Regios city while people are liveing safely in the city meantime like nothing is happening....... failing in protecting is not acceptable whatever monster it is running away is not allowed defeat or die....
Interesting...
First: I don't know what would Nina do in Layfon's situation if she were completely in the same situation(she would probably do many things similary)
But if we keep Nina's "typical personality"(Honorbound[and honest], Strong-willed and full of energy) then it something similar like that:
Here's my quick-made story about Nina(with her usual personality) in Layfon's shoes at Grendan.
Nina couldn't participate in illegal matches because it dirties the image of Military Arts. Instead she tries to work somewhere(as shop assistant, or worker at the machinery department). Perhaps everyone looks strangely on her as HB reciever. The queen probably forbids her to do that and then Nina asks for help from her. The Queen:
A.maybe she helps her
B.) she don't helps her and Nina must work secretly part-time somewhere(but still a honest work with relatively small pay... Nina believes it can't be helped). In the meantime her childhood friend Harely learns finance and he works in a part-time job too.Maybe Nina even convinces everyone to work for the good of the orphanage. Because thanks to his friend's advice she knows she can't earn enough and she needs the help of others. The news about the working orphanage spreads and many people donates for the well being of the orphans as a reaction.
But someone finds out that Nina at part-time work actually Nina Volfstein Anttalk, the 12th HB reciever and tries to blackmail her to give up her status to her(with losing to him at the MA tournament). Nina nods for it at first, but at the actual tournament she can't do that and defeats him. The guy tells Nina's secret to everyone and it causes a great disturbance. The Queen is angry(she know it all, but she's angry because it found out), but partly to the efect of the public she supports the orphanage and Nina remains a HB reciever.

That's it in short. I left out the angsty and self-hatred parts, but in short that happens when Nina(while she retains her personality from CSR...so as we know her). Like a fairytale? It's not exactly but with Layfon's power and Nina's personality we've got a Marry Sue cause much of Nina's faults comes from her powerlessness.
Perhaps as i said if Nina grows up in the same situation as Layfon her personality somewhat become similar to Layfon's...we don't know which part of her personality is due to background and which one's hers since birth.

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 05:51
If it was just Gorneo telling about it, she would have reason to doubt. But Layfon himself is clearly admitting and not regretting the claims. Admittance is without any external pressure on him, how wouldn't you believe the man?

Again, his past feats and deeds from episode 1 till 9 were more than enough to override that. If he’s not there Zuellni, its citizens, the platoon and her would’ve been bug food by ep 9.

I don't know you but I wouldn't work together with a convicted criminal whose crimes defy all I value if I had the chance.

In CSR’s case considering: (i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws; (ii) had undergone his punishment, (iii) the environment around are invested hundreds of thousands or probably million creatures thats hungry for human flesh; and (iv) He’s the only one capable defending the city or area where its populations are around tens of thousands where loved ones reside; then overruling such ‘value’ and ‘motive’ are but a small price to pay, at least in my case.

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 06:07
Again, his past feats and deeds from episode 1 till 9 were more than enough to override that. If he’s not there Zuellni, its citizens, the platoon and her would’ve been bug food by ep 9.
It's clearly not enough, that's why everybody got deceived except Felli. (and Leerin of course, but she knew him longer than anyone else)
In CSR’s case considering: (i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws; (ii) had undergone his punishment, (iii) the environment around are invested hundreds of thousands or probably million creatures thats hungry for human flesh; and (iv) He’s the only one capable defending the city or area where its populations are around tens of thousands where loved ones reside; then overruling such ‘value’ and ‘motive’ are but a small price to pay, at least in my case.
You seem to have picked one sentence from the paragraph while the remaining parts included all the reply, pasting it and making the parts you ignored bold:

"Punishment doesn't warrant rehabilitation by itself. It's not a matter of exacting revenge from him for what he did, it's about if he learned his lesson. He says he didn't and that's by itself enough to give second thoughts about working together. I don't know you but I wouldn't work together with a convicted criminal whose crimes defy all I value if I had the chance. It's not like Nina wants him to get exiled, she just would have him replaced to another platoon. This wouldn't have any impact on city's benefit from Layfon. He's happy, she's happy, city happy. Nobody loses anything."

And if anyone likes to, we can move this discussion to Nina's thread.

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 06:26
It's clearly not enough, that's why everybody got deceived except Felli. (and Leerin of course, but she knew him longer than anyone else)

Then what’s enough? So Nina should change his ideals completely? Sorry but its Fon-fon’r right to stood by his ideals, especially when he’s contributed more than enough to Zuellni’s population as a whole much more than she did. If she don’t like then tough luck.

"Punishment doesn't warrant rehabilitation by itself. It's not a matter of exacting revenge from him for what he did, it's about if he learned his lesson. He says he didn't and that's by itself enough to give second thoughts about working together.

Actually, my answer would’ve been the same as this,

In CSR’s case considering: (i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws; (ii) had undergone his punishment, (iii) the environment around are invested hundreds of thousands or probably million creatures thats hungry for human flesh; and (iv) He’s the only one capable defending the city or area where its populations are around tens of thousands where loved ones reside; then overruling such ‘value’ and ‘motive’ are but a small price to pay, at least in my case.

It's not like Nina wants him to get exiled, she just would have him replaced to another platoon. This wouldn't have any impact on city's benefit from Layfon. He's happy, she's happy, city happy. Nobody loses anything.

She disagreed with his ‘ideals’ so she probably decides to rule him out out of the team. She couldn’t accepted Fon-fon’s way of thinking despite the feats he had done and the points I’ve said earlier. Er…..similar result as before.

Do you know if Feli gets kidnapped on purpose or no?

No, man. Sry. For the pics its from the official websites.

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 06:42
Then what’s enough? So Nina should change his ideals completely? Sorry but its Fon-fon’r right to stood by his ideals, especially when he’s contributed more than enough to Zuellni’s population as a whole much more than she did. If she don’t like then tough luck.
Layfon telling the truth would be enough. And they're not Layfon's real thoughts, he's hiding the truth on purpose. In any case, Layfon would be just moved to another platoon, problem solved.
Actually, my answer would’ve been the same as this,
Then you're not understanding the difference between concepts of punishment as revenge and punishment as rehabilitation. Nina doesn't want him to suffer for what he did. She just doesn't want to work with someone whose projected (not real as he hides the truth) ideals conflict fundamentally with hers and also possess risk to the platoon.
She disagreed with his ‘ideals’ so she probably decides to rule him out out of the team. She couldn’t accepted Fon-fon’s way of thinking despite the feats he had done and the points I’ve said earlier. Er…..similar result as before.

Yeah, so Nina removing him from the platoon has no harm on the city's well-being, contrary to what you claimed all along.

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 06:56
Then you're not understanding the difference between concepts of punishment as revenge and punishment as rehabilitation. Nina doesn't want him to suffer for what he did. She just doesn't want to work with someone whose projected (not real as he hides the truth) ideals conflict fundamentally with hers and also possess risk to the platoon.

He had been ‘punished’, ‘penalised’, and had undergone them as an exile. His ‘ideals’ are his and him alone. Its his right. I refer to point (i) of my previous post ‘(i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws’, from ep 1 till 8 he hasn’t done anything wrong. My point (ii) until (iv) just reinforce his worth even further and that’s why Nina should take them into account.

Layfon telling the truth would be enough. And they're not Layfon's real thoughts, he's hiding the truth on purpose. In any case, Layfon would be just moved to another platoon, problem solved.

Yeah, so Nina removing him from the platoon has no harm on the city's well-being, contrary to what you claimed all along.

It shows one thing, a person who couldn’t able to accept other people’s opinion or way of thinking despite his past positive feats, just because it conflicted with her self righteous idealistic thinking where she did less than him. You're right, Fon-fon would've been better off under another team.

But of course, ep 10 showed otherwise where she still accepted him there even though she’s pissed about it.

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 07:12
He had been ‘punished’, ‘penalised’, and had undergone them as an exile. His ‘ideals’ are his and him alone. Its his right. I refer to point (i) of my previous post ‘(i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws’, from ep 1 till 8 he hasn’t done anything wrong. My point (ii) until (iv) just reinforce his worth even further and that’s why Nina should take them into account.
It's his crime he defends with those ideals. Yes, it's his right. And it's also Nina's right to remove his from the platoon for that. If it wasn't for his earlier actions, Nina could just fire him on the spot. Heck, Gorneo and his monkey want to kill him even though they're aware of his accomplishments. Why are you so fixated on just Nina's response as if she's the only one who didn't understand him? Sharnid couldn't see it till Felli told them as well.
It shows one thing, a person who couldn’t able to accept other people’s opinion or way of thinking despite his past positive feats, just because it conflicted with her self righteous idealistic thinking where she did less than him. You're right, Fon-fon would've been better off under another team.

You're talking as if his crime was stealing bread from bakery. His crimes were severe enough to grant his exile, removal of his rank and hatred from whole Grendan city. The conflict of those ideals weren't something trivial like "you like yellow huh? I don't like it, let's separate".

Nope, Layfon would devolve back into his emo comatose as it's Nina's actions that kept him moving forward. I didn't speculate about "what would happen" anyway.
But of course, ep 10 showed otherwise where she still accepted him there even though she’s pissed about it.
Because after all that happened, he still hid the real truth from her. He was literally asking for it.

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 07:24
It's his crime he defends with those ideals. Yes, it's his right. And it's also Nina's right to remove his from the platoon for that.

Ok.

If it wasn't for his earlier actions, Nina could just fire him on the spot.

That’s a bit harsh. Nina isn’t like that at all. She is as you said, a paladin.

Heck, Gorneo and his monkey want to kill him even though they're aware of his accomplishments.

Which Layfon could’ve killed them in the process. But he didn’t, he spared them, even with his ‘ideals’. So he didn’t stray off afterall.

You're talking as if his crime was stealing bread from bakery. His crimes were severe enough to grant his exile, removal of his rank and hatred from whole Grendan city. The conflict of those ideals weren't something trivial like "you like yellow huh? I don't like it, let's separate".

That’s Grendan, now he’s in Zuellni. And what he did in Zuellni are by far more beneficial for its citizens than Nina can ever achieved, yes?

Nope, Layfon would devolve back into his emo comatose as it's Nina's actions that kept him moving forward. I didn't speculate about "what would happen" anyway.

He’s perfectly capable alone mentally as shown in ep 7, 12-14.

Because after all that happened, he still hid the real truth from her. He was literally asking for it.

But she still accepted him while being pissed. ‘I hate you!!!’, ‘I know….’. Classic. Fon-fon stood by his ideals quite gallantly. ;)

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 07:59
That’s a bit harsh. Nina isn’t like that at all. She is as you said, a paladin.
She could, but yeah, she's not that reckless. I pointed out to the seriousness of the conflict with the example.

Which Layfon could’ve killed them in the process. But he didn’t, he spared them, even with his ‘ideals’. So he didn’t stray off afterall.
I told that as examples of how others reacted to his crimes, it's not only Nina who receives it as negative.
That’s Grendan, now he’s in Zuellni. And what he did in Zuellni are by far more beneficial for its citizens than Nina can ever achieved, yes?
The crimes aren't erased by moving cities and what he's saying implies that he can be a threat to the platoon at the very least. Repeating once more: She doesn't want him to get kicked out of the city.
He’s perfectly capable alone mentally as shown in ep 7, 12-14.

He had friends that he wanted to protect. His new platoon could consist of people that he wouldn't care for, like shunning or denouncing him. See: Gorneo, his monkey, multiple no-name artists that opposed him over the course of the series.
But she still accepted him while being pissed. ‘I hate you!!!’, ‘I know….’. Classic. Fon-fon stood by his ideals quite gallantly. ;)
Yup, because his actions were inconsistent with his words. His attitude was totally confusing.

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 08:17
She could, but yeah, she's not that reckless. I pointed out to the seriousness of the conflict with the example.

Splendid then.

I told that as examples of how others reacted to his crimes, it's not only Nina who receives it as negative.

Yes, but Nina confronted him because of his dark ‘motives’ and ‘ahm evil’ aura with the possibility to stray off. Which of course, didn’t happen from ep 1 to 8. Others also saw him of his crimes, which he easily repel and could’ve killed them considering his ‘motives’, that is none other the essence of his survival, but he didn’t. He kept himself in check.

The crimes aren't erased by moving cities and what he's saying implies that he can be a threat to the platoon at the very least.

Implications, which are quite the opposite of what already happen, that was he kept being lawful.

Repeating once more: She doesn't want him to get kicked out of the city.

Yes, only the possibility of replacing him from the platoon. Hence she couldn’t accept differences other than her ideals.

Yup, because his actions were inconsistent with his words. His attitude was totally confusing.

Considering his survival philosophy, I’d say it’s fairly consistent and that’s Layfon for you. :)

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 09:10
Yes, but Nina confronted him because of his dark ‘motives’ and ‘ahm evil’ aura with the possibility to stray off. Which of course, didn’t happen from ep 1 to 8. Others also saw him of his crimes, which he easily repel and could’ve killed them considering his ‘motives’, that is none other the essence of his survival, but he didn’t. He kept himself in check.

Implications, which are quite the opposite of what already happen, that was he kept being lawful.
Motives that caused his crimes, if those motives remained, who's to say he wouldn't commit them again? You should be aware that he could in fact be evil who were merely playing along to a charade, from Nina and others' point of view. We're judging him based on what happened really back in Grendan, the real, uncovered truth we're shown. The truth which is not available to Nina and others.
Yes, only the possibility of replacing him from the platoon. Hence she couldn’t accept differences other than her ideals.
You're downplaying the importance of the issue to something like football club fandom. I've pointed out the severity of the issue multiple times already.
Considering his survival philosophy, I’d say it’s fairly consistent and that’s Layfon for you. :)
Like I said above: You're commenting based on the real past shown to us, the audience. Nina cannot watch CSR, she cannot know what happened back in Grendan.

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 09:31
Motives that caused his crimes, if those motives remained, who's to say he wouldn't commit them again?

Himself and his actions that are already happened? During ep 1 -9, maybe 10, he didn’t cause any crimes. The facts contradicts the implications.

You should be aware that he could in fact be evil who were merely playing along to a charade, by Nina and other's point of view. We're judging him based on what happened really back in Grendan, the real, uncovered truth we're shown. The truth which is not available to Nina and others.

Well not the way I see it on the accounts of what already happened. He saved tens of thousands of lives and until ep 9 manage to keep himself in check. Even before or after Nina viewed him as evil in ep 9 he didn’t commit any crimes at all but instead good and possibly heroic deeds. Afterwards we haven’t seen him straying off. Nina already viewed him as evil as shown at the end of ep 9 with the possibility of replacing him from the platoon. But we know how ep 10 turns out. She gave up and backs off.

You're downplaying the importance of the issue to something like football club fandom. I've pointed out the severity of the issue multiple times already.

As am I. She couldn’t accepted people’s opinion. Its because Layfon’s ‘ideal’/’point of view’ is [(i) gay; or (ii) atheist; or (iii) socialist; or (iv) materialistic; or (v) selfish, or (vi) any other] she immediately shun him. That’s Nina for you where she couldn’t accept diversity of opinions at first. But the end of ep 10 she finally gave up.

Like I said above: You're commenting based on the real past shown to us, the audience. Nina cannot watch CSR, she cannot know what happened back in Grendan.

Well in Nina’s point of view from the events ep 9 and 10 be it as evil as he is she finally gave up and accepted him. Good for her. :)

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 10:05
Continuing the discussion from ep 19 thread here now.

Himself and his actions that are already happened? During ep 1 -9, maybe 10, he didn’t cause any crimes. The facts contradicts the implications.

Well not the way I see it on the accounts of what already happened. He saved tens of thousands of lives and until ep 9 manage to keep himself in check. Even before or after Nina viewed him as evil in ep 9 he didn’t commit any crimes at all but instead good and possibly heroic deeds. Afterwards we haven’t seen him straying off. Nina already viewed him as evil as shown at the end of ep 9 with the possibility of replacing him from the platoon. But we know how ep 10 turns out. She gave up and backs off.

As I said, he could have been making an act to gain their trust, he could be anything. The guy was an enigma by all means, his power, his motives, where he was from and what he was doing till now. Nina just learned his past and it literally is a wreck as told to her. He makes a case out of it and hides only the parts that prove him innocent.
As am I. She couldn’t accepted people’s opinion. Its because Layfon’s ‘ideal’/’point of view’ is [(i) gay; or (ii) atheist; or (iii) socialist; or (iv) materialistic; or (v) selfish, or (vi) any other] she immediately shun him. That’s Nina for you where she couldn’t accept diversity of opinions at first. But the end of ep 10 she finally gave up.
Let me point out the link between the crimes he defends and Nina's concern:

- Insubordination: Among the heaviest crime possible in the military, would result in expulsion.
- Using rank for illegal exploits: Among the most dire crimes for state officials, would result in expulsion.
- Using deadly force against a witness: You guess.

It's got nothing to with being gay or atheist.
Well in Nina’s point of view from the events ep 9 and 10 be it as evil as he is she finally gave up and accepted him. Good for her. :)
Thankfully you cleared Nina of that charge at least. :p

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 10:29
Honoring Ultramarinus and other posters requests,


As I said, he could have been making an act to gain their trust, he could be anything. The guy was an enigma by all means, his power, his motives, where he was from and what he was doing till now. Nina just learned his past and it literally is a wreck as told to her.

Again………implications which contradicts of the facts that happened. Has he committed any crime during this enigmatic gesture? It’s actually the opposite. And again, Nina should’ve check on this thoroughly.

He makes a case out of it and hides only the parts that prove him innocent.

Fon-fon was never innocent and never will. Back in Grendan he committed a serious crime which I stated earlier: (i) participated in underground match for money; (ii) nearly killed a guy for blackmailing him with the pretext of a exhibition match or bout; (iii) disclosing the fear that Martial Artist are not human; (iv) disgracing the Heaven Blades name, hence the queen; and finally (v) disgracing the Psyharden, his master’s code of conduct. His actions were punishable by death, but by the grace of the Queen the punishment was reduced to only exile. That’s what happened in the past. In the past,

Now in Zuellni he started a whole new life where so far he is good and heroic.

- Insubordination: Among the heaviest crime possible in the military, would result in expulsion.
- Using rank for illegal exploits: Among the most dire crimes for state officials, would result in explusion.
- Using deadly force against a witness: You guess.

Grendan was a thing of the past so I’m going to talk his feats on Zuellni.

- Insubordination and expulsion, but because of what? His actions within Zuellni’s jurisdiction that’re already happened are within boundaries, and he saved Zuellni, proven to be an indispensable military asset. Because his ideals differs from his superior? If that’s the reason Nina would file for an expulsion or court marshaling Fon-fon then it only made her more and more selfish and couldn’t accept people’s opinion even more.

- Using rank for illegal exploits, what crimes did Fon-fon commit in Zuellni? None. Just expressing and defending his opinion that differs from his superior.

- Using deadly force against a witness: You guess. Back in Grendan, not in Zuellni he’s not.

Taken all the above into account further shows the quality of the superior Fon-fon’s under is it? ;)

But relax, episode 10 had proven otherwise. She gave up.

It's got nothing to with being gay or atheist. She already tolerates lazy bums who try to avoid work by any means possible, so she's not a bigot.

She didn’t tolerate Fon-fon just because his way of thinking is different. Now that’s something.

On side note, Fon-fon is above the military law because of what he’s capable of. At least him and Felli. If Nina wants to expelled him then by all means, many would simply take him under their wings and Nina’s squad can return of being ordinary again.

Thankfully you cleared Nina of that charge at least

Yeah Fon-fon’s stood by his ideals and Nina couldn’t do anything about it and finally gave up and accepted him. It shows that she actually grows. :)

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 10:58
Again………implications which contradicts of the facts that happened. Has he committed any crime during this enigmatic gesture? It’s actually the opposite. And again, Nina should’ve check on this thoroughly.
His good deeds were no more real than his bad deeds, as he himself tells her such, Nina has to take his word. There isn't any other source of information except Gorneo, who already had told the same.

Fon-fon was never innocent and never will. Back in Grendan he committed a serious crime which I stated earlier: (i) participated in underground match for money; (ii) nearly killed a guy for blackmailing him with the pretext of a exhibition match or bout; (iii) disclosing the fear that Martial Artist are not human; (iv) disgracing the Heaven Blades name, hence the queen; and finally (v) disgracing the Psyharden, his master’s code of conduct. His actions were punishable by death, but by the grace of the Queen the punishment was reduced to only exile. That’s what happened in the past. In the past,

Now in Zuellni he started a whole new life where so far he is good and heroic.

He did those mostly to fund the orphanage, he was at fault but the motives were selfless, maybe except cutting down that guy. If he made his case like that, he could receive a lesser punishment or at least the Queen could use her initiative in the matter to at least let him stay. Not to mention Nina could at least not offer separating.
Grendan was a thing of the past so I’m going to talk his feats on Zuellni.

- Insubordination and expulsion, but because of what? His actions within Zuellni’s jurisdiction that’re already happened are within boundaries, and he saved Zuellni, proven to be an indispensable military asset. Because his ideals differs from his superior? If that’s the reason Nina would file for an expulsion or court marshaling Fon-fon then it only made her more and more selfish and couldn’t accept people’s opinion even more.

- Using rank for illegal exploits, what crimes did Fon-fon commit in Zuellni? None. Just expressing and defending his opinion that differs from his superior.

- Using deadly force against a witness: You guess. Back in Grendan, not in Zuellni he’s not.

Taken all the above into account further shows the quality of the superior Fon-fon’s under is it? ;)

But relax, episode 10 had proven otherwise. She gave up.
Seriously, maybe we should just stop arguing about this particular matter. It seems that our understanding of a military structure, criminal law and commander responsibilities is totally different and you've been refusing all of my explanations to their nature.

His crimes' implications persist over moving, he refuses to repent, rather he defends his crimes, his ideas threaten the platoon's teamwork and safety. As long as you continue to ignore these facts, we'll just continue to repeat with different words. Let's say we disagree about the matter and be done with it.

One last thing: She didn't give up, she saw through his deceit.
She didn’t tolerate Fon-fon just because his way of thinking is different. Now that’s something.

On side note, Fon-fon is above the military law because of what he’s capable of. At least him and Felli. If Nina wants to expelled him then by all means, many would simply take him under their wings and Nina’s squad can return of being ordinary again.
She didn't tolerate his way of thinking because it goes against military, law and squad safety. Let's drop this as well and call it a disagreement.

As I said several times before, she would just have him moved to another platoon. She doesn't have the authority to expel, she didn't imply that either.
Yeah Fon-fon’s stood by his ideals and Nina couldn’t do anything about it and finally gave up and accepted him. It shows that she actually grows. :)
Felli told them about Layfon's true ideals and it made sense, so she drops the matter. If she thought he really was like how he told, (EBUL!!!) she wouldn't let it go.

Now that we moved here and seemingly closed a few topics as disagreements, I'd really like to see your reasons as to why you like Nina. Because your list of criticisms pretty much covers all the aspects of her character.

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 11:27
His good deeds were no more real than his bad deeds, as he himself tells her such, Nina has to take his word. There isn't any other source of information except Gorneo, who already had told the same.

Then she had amnesia of the good things Fon-fon’s conducted during in Zuellni? Fon-fon hadn’t violated any laws.

He did those mostly to fund the orphanage, he was at fault but the motives were selfless, maybe except cutting down that guy. If he made his case like that, he could receive a lesser punishment or at least the Queen could use her initiative in the matter to at least let him stay. Not to mention Nina could at least not offer separating.

His crimes were severe in the eyes of Grendan’s and the royal family. Fon-fon was just lucky really.

and you've been refusing all of my explanations to their nature.

long as you continue to ignore these facts, we'll just continue to repeat with different words.

Unfortunately, as are you. You argued about ‘motives’, I argued about ‘facts’, ‘events that happened’.

Grendan events:

- He committed crime in Grendan and had been punished;
- Has a motive of survival;

Zuellni events

- Arrived at Zuellni, during this has his motive of survival;
- Beat squad 16, during this has his motive of survival;
- Saved the city in ep 5, during this has his motive of survival;
- Fighting the dragon in ep 7 saving the city again, during this has his motive of survival;
- Fighting Gorneo and co, during this has his motive of survival;
- Conducting surveillance to the Goat City; during this has his motive of survival;
- Confront Nina, his past exposed, stood by his ideals and during this has his motive of survival
- Confront Shante and Gorneo who probably intends to kill him, beat them off, but he spared them, during this has his motive of survival;
- Ep 12 – ep 15, during these periods he has his motive of survival;

He had his motives, but still, he didn’t commit any crimes at all. These are what you seems didn't take into account.

If we arguing about ‘motives’, then pretty much Nina’s recklessness and forcefulness should’ve been taken into account because of her nature to not thinking strategically as seen 2 years prior, in ep 2, 6, and 16. And she should’ve been strip out of her rank permanently because he’s unfit to be a leader, it could simply happen again in the future because of these events and based on ‘motives’ alone. Not because of facts.

She didn't tolerate his way of thinking because it goes against military, law and squad safety. Let's drop this as well and call it a disagreement.

And you dismiss the fact the Fon-fon hadn’t conduct any crimes of violations under her leadership, but so far he obeyed nearly every order that was given, including from the high ranks. Just because his way of thinking is different she consider them as a ‘crime’.

Maybe you’re right. Lets disagree.

As I said several times before, she would just have him moved to another platoon. She doesn't have the authority to expel, she didn't imply that either.

You’re right, he should remove under different platoon where they can at least tolerate his differences rather than a rather ‘racist’ or ‘chauvinistic’ squad who likes to prejudice.

Felli told them about Layfon's true ideals and it made sense, so she drops the matter. If she thought he really was like how he told, (EBUL!!!) she wouldn't let it go.

Your right, that’s why she’s still angry with him in the end. :) Good for them.

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 11:45
Then she had amnesia of the good things Fon-fon’s conducted during in Zuellni? Fon-fon hadn’t violated any laws.
Once more, those do not clear out his crimes.
His crimes were severe in the eyes of Grendan’s and the royal family. Fon-fon was just lucky really.
Because he hid the truth there as well apparently. Even the children of the orphanage who received those cookies had no idea it was dirty money.

Unfortunately, as are you. You argued about ‘motives’, I argued about ‘facts’, ‘events that happened’.
I've told about facts of military structure, criminal law and squad safety, that applies in the world of Regios as well. I also told about his crimes that were also facts and his lies that were also facts, from the characters' point of view.

I just saw the same discussion the previous page here and it looks like you held the same view back then. Best if we just drop it like Layfon & Nina did. :p
And you dismiss the fact the Fon-fon hadn’t conduct any crimes of violations under his leadership, but so far he obeyed nearly every order that was given, including from the high ranks. Just because his way of thinking is different she consider them as a ‘crime’.

Maybe you’re right. Lets disagree.
Agreed on that last sentence.
You’re right, he should remove under different platoon where they can at least tolerate his differences rather than a rather ‘racist’ or ‘chauvinistic’ squad who likes to prejudice.

To think you're portraying that ideology conflict as racism now, I'm just dropping it. Whatever floats your boat. :rolleyes:
Your right, that’s why she’s still angry with him in the end. :) Good for them.
Yup, it makes sense to get angry at liars.

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 12:03
Once more, those do not clear out his crimes.

His Grendan crimes were an undisputed hard facts. However he already undergone punishment. About his ‘motives’ his feats are more than t enough to overrule that.

I've told about facts of military structure, criminal law and squad safety, that applies in the world of Regios as well. I also told about his crimes that were also facts and his lies that were also facts, from the characters' point of view.

As I stated earlier his crimes were in the past. During his presence within Zuellni’s military from ep 5 onwards he obeyed every orders and was a dutiful soldier and saved the city. Where does his ‘motives’ were actually harmful to others and for the benefit of the city as a whole other than to our closed-minded captain?

I just saw the same discussion the previous page here and it looks like you held the same view back then.

Yes you’re right. It’s really unfortunate that at least to me you couldn’t provide a rather sufficient counter argument about all of his feats and facts he already did against his motives and lying habits rather than clinging on stuffs in the past

To think you're portraying that ideology conflict as racism now, I'm just dropping it. Whatever floats your boat

Your right, it’s not racism, but conflict of ideologies, hence Nina likes to prejudice.

Yup, it makes sense to get angry at liars.

In a unique and funny way on how she delivered them, I can give you that. :)

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 12:20
His Grendan crimes were an undisputed hard facts. However he already undergone punishment. About his ‘motives’ his feats are more than t enough to overrule that.
I said this multiple times already, still, here comes one last time: It's not a matter of exacting revenge on his crimes but if he rehabilitated or not. If you don't see the difference between these two, I have nothing more to offer on the matter.
As I stated earlier his crimes were in the past. During his presence within Zuellni’s military from ep 5 onwards he obeyed every orders and was a dutiful soldier and saved the city. Where does his ‘motives’ were actually harmful to others and for the benefit of the city as a whole other than to our closed-minded captain?
I guess I should've chosen the easy way out and asked if you'd work together with a Hitler who says, "burned 5 million people and proud of it" to your face or send him to another platoon. :rolleyes:

On another note, if you'd like to make a reversal of our roles so far, I'd like you to state what you like about Nina and in return, I'll tell what I don't like about her. What do you say?

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 12:33
I said this multiple times already, still, here comes one last time: It's not a matter of exacting revenge on his crimes but if he rehabilitated or not. If you don't see the difference between these two, I have nothing more to offer on the matter.

I do, you're arguing that Fon-fon hadn’t feel sorry for his past mistake therefore he’s dangerous. I for one think that considering these subjects I’ve mentioned earlier,

(i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws; (ii) had undergone his punishment, (iii) the environment around are invested hundreds of thousands or probably million creatures thats hungry for human flesh; and (iv) He’s the only one capable defending the city or area where its populations are around tens of thousands where loved ones reside; then overruling such ‘value’ and ‘motive’ are but a small price to pay, at least in my case.

He had been ‘punished’, ‘penalised’, and had undergone them as an exile. His ‘ideals’ are his and him alone. Its his right. I refer to point (i) of my previous post ‘(i) that criminal is doing fine in the local premises not violating the laws’, from ep 1 till 8 he hasn’t done anything wrong. My point (ii) until (iv) just reinforce his worth even further and that’s why Nina should take them into account.

Of which you replied,

It's his crime he defends with those ideals. Yes, it's his right. And it's also Nina's right to remove his from the platoon for that. If it wasn't for his earlier actions, Nina could just fire him on the spot. Heck, Gorneo and his monkey want to kill him even though they're aware of his accomplishments. Why are you so fixated on just Nina's response as if she's the only one who didn't understand him? Sharnid couldn't see it till Felli told them as well.

Considering the feats he had and could’ve given to Zuellni in the future, overruling such motive is but a small price to pay.

I guess I should've chosen the easy way out and asked if you'd work together with a Hitler who says, "burned 5 million people and proud of it" to your face or sent him to another platoon

LOL, Slick_rick also asked me the same question which I replied,

Gah man, you bring up one of the most extreme example. Okay if ‘Hitler’ had saved millions of citizens including friends and families of New York twice from alien assault I’d be wary too, but considering his expertise in near-future with potential of saving more millions again from alien attacks and like he’s the only one capable on doing it around the area so…

Maybe yes but not proud of it. :uhoh:

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 12:56
I do, you're arguing that Fon-fon hadn’t feel sorry for his past mistake therefore he’s dangerous. I for one think that considering these subjects I’ve mentioned earlier,

Of which you replied,

Considering the feats he had and could’ve given to Zuellni in the future, overruling such motive is but a small price to pay.
The thing is that, he clearly states himself that he has such a motive. That's the key point here.
LOL, Slick_rick also asked me the same question which I replied,

Maybe yes but not proud of it. :uhoh:
I'm aware that he did, :heh: but my questions differed with these extra conditions:

- Hitler will state that he doesn't regret and that he'd do it again.
- You can just replace Hitler to another platoon so you won't see his ugly mug but he'll continue to save people.

TrueKnight
2009-05-21, 13:15
The thing is that, he clearly states himself that he has such a motive. That's the key point here.

Which is alright to overrule considering all the above feats. Tis but a small price to pay.

I'm aware that he did, but my questions differed with these extra conditions:

- Hitler will state that he doesn't regret and that he'd do it again.
- You can just replace Hitler to another platoon so you won't see his ugly mug but he'll continue to save people.

Alrighty then,

Imo the setting has to be similar to CSR in every way so we can give somewhat similar or at least close judgments.

Then I’ll give my condition: if Hitler had Fon-fon’s exact or somewhat close personality and had undergone similar stuffs that Fon-fon went then it’s alright.

Ultramarinus
2009-05-21, 13:30
Eh, we disagree then. The case is closed on my part at least, we have totally different opinions. But let me go back to what I said before:

On another note, if you'd like to make a reversal of our roles so far, I'd like you to state what you like about Nina and in return, I'll tell what I don't like about her. What do you say?

satomianzaki
2009-05-22, 22:32
nina from three years ago...so pretty... :)


http://img3.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/5961c53234d835cc69a2274ed8afbc1d1236139078_full.jp g

Ultramarinus
2009-05-23, 04:33
Nice pic, :smile: where's this from? Volume 13?

TrueKnight
2009-05-23, 07:02
Yea, it's nice. Apparently its from 3 years ago when she's only 15 and first enrolled to Zuellni.

satomianzaki
2009-05-23, 11:14
Nice pic, :smile: where's this from? Volume 13?

actually i'm not sure...i just saw it in one site and thought i'd share it here...this is one of the pics that boost my liking of nina...my impression of her before was that she's really boyish with her looks...

but seeing what she looked like before made me say she really is the prettiest among the girls of csr...even now that she has short hair...maybe also because of her personality...

:)

Ultramarinus
2009-05-23, 11:32
Short hair is the way to go in the military, I also find her cooler that way myself. :cool: She reminds me Alice L Marvin from Pumpkin Scissors in both looks and personality, I loved her too.

satomianzaki
2009-05-23, 12:03
here's another one of nina's pics...

http://img3.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/41474825dabd4d29b875f16e8fda7ee11235532603_full.jp g

willyvereb
2009-05-23, 14:45
I guess she wasn't a child of a noble house for nothing. It's funny that Felli has the princess attitude despite Nina's background.

satomianzaki
2009-05-23, 21:11
yeah you're right... :)

though could it be that felli is also from a noble family?
if i were to describe those two, felli is more of a "brat" type and nina the "rebellious" type...

i wanted to say "bitch" but seems a bit harsh to describe felli like that...lol...

:)

cheesie
2009-05-24, 05:13
here's another one of nina's pics...

http://img3.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/41474825dabd4d29b875f16e8fda7ee11235532603_full.jp g

She looks beautiful in that other picture, and now here. (Despite having a look that says 'I have no idea how I landed myself in a dress'. :p) She fits much better with combat gear, although I do miss her long hair.

willyvereb
2009-05-24, 05:51
here's another one of nina's pics...

http://img3.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/41474825dabd4d29b875f16e8fda7ee11235532603_full.jp g

Actually when i saw that picture the first thing that got into my head is Rena's (in)famous sentence: "I want to take it home!". If it's problematic then the panda toy is enough.:p

azarhal
2009-06-12, 16:50
Replying to germanturkey post in episode 22 thread:

Nina is hypocritical because she doesn't accept Layfon's values of do anything to live, yet she keeps her closet ideology of do anything to save the city to herself. and frankly, she annoys me as a character. lets take a look at her character progression through the series.

I don't see how not liking or accepting somebody values can be seen has hypocritical. She's didn't said that he had to do things her way. She just didn't see how she could work with somebody who didn't seem to care about anything else then his own life. You should note that Nina didn't know anything about Layfon at that time and his attitude didn't help the matter either.

fairly weak platoon member, more bronze than brains, yet not too much bronze either.

That weak platoon member was recruited in her first year (as seen in the 2 year earlier city match) and was accepted as a platoon captain in her second year. If you fallowed the anime, you'll see that a platoon can be disbanded at any time by the President. If she was so weak, I think that the platoon would have been disbanded by now.

By the way, Vance (the guy in charge of all the platoon) used exactly the same strategy that Nina used for his match against Mayath: Layfon as bait. If that is lacking brains, well Zuellini is truly screwed then.

layfon arrives, "holy shits" at his strength. Finds out she's an ant compared to him.

As did everybody else.

17th starts to win. misconception that she assumes she's growing stronger.

Well, she was training a lot with Layfon...and we didn't see any of those match so we can't really comment if Layfon was the only factor in those victories or not.

17th fights without Layfon. finds out she's still weak.

The first platoon is a full platoon: That mean 7 people, 1 Fellis-like and 6 warriors. 2 warriors went after Sharnid and Shena...That mean that Nina beat 3 warriros and lost against the school best soldier after Layfon: Vance.

I wouldn't call her weak for that.

finds out what happened to Din/why he did what he did. criticizes him for it.
same thing happens to her. she keeps it to herself/accepts it.

I don't remember Nina taking drugs.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-16, 10:26
Yeah, I really love how people make up 'facts' for the convenience of their argument, then fail to back up what they claimed. Dinn was criticized because of the drugs back then.

And finally on ep 23, we could see why Nina withheld the secret. It looks like hardly anyone except her own platoon cares much about her safety and it's not really abnormal given the gravity of the city's situation. There's nowhere she can turn to now that the secret is out.

Even though the conversation between her and Layfon isn't canon to my knowledge, it did fine in explaining how she hesitated about revealing the matter. Doing all that she can to help the city but the events forces upon her such a choice that she has to decide between the city or veggie state. Ouch, I know that I'd hesitate that much even if not have second thoughts.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-18, 17:27
I was going through some other things and just realized that I knew another character that's very much alike, both personality and visual design-wise, so I decided to highlight those other characters who share an uncanny resemblance. :twitch:

Alice L Marvin - Pumpkin Scissors (manga & anime - pretty decent)
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4833/snapshot20090511202930.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20090511202930.jpg)
Let's see, short blonde hair, blue eyes. Uses a double-bladed sword! Captain of her squad, ranking officer. Comes from wealthy, noble family but doesn't heed to their pleas and delves into military. Squad pretty much useless bunch till lead male comes, even has a Sharnid-like casanova! Lead male insanely strong but holds his power until a time comes and he has to snap off to fully demonstrate his abilities. Everyone's awestruck. She tries to motivate and mobilize the male lead (and others) all the time, over time they get closer. She's reckless, headstrong and always gets into the thick of things, always honest and tries her best for others. Setting is a war-torn country where the majority of the population is merely trying to survive.

Jeanne - Jeanne d'Arc (PSP game - awesome so check it out if you have one)
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8738/292571502.th.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/my.php?image=292571502.jpg)
Once again, short blonde hair, blue eyes and check the outfit! Uses a sword. Leader of her group. Dedicates her life to saving her country and its people. She expects everyone to put their very best, like she does. Complications occur to her dismay and she regrets doing that later. She again is reckless and headstrong, pushes herself beyond her limits and kicks ass as a result. She always is in the thick of things, gets hurt but is never deterred. Lead male has a distressing past and he gets to be insanely strong over time. Setting is a war-torn country under attack from a foreign power and all sorts of monsters.

Someone else in his blog has a good comparison picture which I shall add:
http://www.notclickable.com/images/279.jpg

And then, we have Nina and I guess I don't need to point out her facts. I just want to add that these three characters are residing in my favorites pantheon and all of them following the same pattern is a good reason. :heh:

justinstrife
2009-06-18, 20:17
They have similarities I'll admit, but Nina is no Alice.

I loved Alice in Pumpkin Scissors, but can't stand Nina.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-18, 20:58
I made no claim that they're the very same character. Their common points I told and possibly could make a lengthier, more detailed list of their similar traits. I cannot know why you felt that way (I have a wild guess but shall not mention) but I doubt that one can easily show another character who's that close in background, motives, personality and appearance. In fact, I'd love to know that if someone could.

justinstrife
2009-06-18, 23:18
I made no claim that they're the very same character. Their common points I told and possibly could make a lengthier, more detailed list of their similar traits. I cannot know why you felt that way (I have a wild guess but shall not mention) but I doubt that one can easily show another character who's that close in background, motives, personality and appearance. In fact, I'd love to know that if someone could.

What's your guess just out of curiosity sake? :p

I'd say Alice is a lot friendlier and easier to get along with.

TrueKnight
2009-06-19, 02:34
Comparing Jeanne to the likes of anime Nina completely taints and disgrace her in my opinion. Yes I've played the game thoroughly. Jeanne isn't annoying and forceful, finally she accepts people for who and what they really are.

cheshire
2009-06-19, 03:15
^^That doesn't really mean much because Jeanne's more of a one-dimensional character, then again, that game's complete crap.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-19, 07:11
What's your guess just out of curiosity sake? :p

I'd say Alice is a lot friendlier and easier to get along with.
Well, Alice didn't have any real competition compared to Regios with its multitude of female sidekicks that cater to a wide range of tastes. Not to mention that she doesn't have those to cross swords with, Nina has to face a good deal of adversity from deadpan loli fans and stuff. I'd say it's a matter of availability and competition.

Alice pretty much has got the very same ultra-serious attitude when it came down to business, in fact she's generally even more reckless and scolds others when they don't want to face certain death. :) Other than that, both Nina and she displays genuine friendship without discrimination when it doesn't involve work.
Comparing Jeanne to the likes of anime Nina completely taints and disgrace her in my opinion. Yes I've played the game thoroughly. Jeanne isn't annoying and forceful, finally she accepts people for who and what they really are.
Err, Jeanne is VERY forceful and we know what that led to in the game. Mind you, the result was as dire as it can get. Yet I won't criticize being forceful when the situation demands it, that's how I like these characters, dealing so with people who wish to remain a child in a harsh world. They are more Sgt Hartman rather than Miyagi-san. Also, Nina accepts people like that as well. Ep 10 & 23.

TrueKnight
2009-06-19, 07:35
Nina accepted Layfon because she realize she couldnt do anything about it back then and finally found out she was the weak one all the long while he's the strong one. She realizes her mistake but its too late.

Jeanne however never forced anyone to follow her but rather, it's the others who're willing to follow her voluntarily.

So for me Jeanne >>>>>>>>>>>> Nina

Ultramarinus
2009-06-19, 07:53
Nina accepted Layfon because she found out that he was deceiving them. See ep 10, Felli tipped them off about it. She just bears all the burdens like Layfon and isn't afraid to criticize herself even when unnecessary, not sure what you mean about being late as nobody got hurt because of her.

Uh, I guess you forgot Jeanne clashing with Liane who wanted to abandon their course. We know what that led to. Nina only made Layfon join their platoon, eventually she dropped that as well. And you're making it sound like it happened at gun-point or by blackmailing. He was forced into being a military artist by the president anyway, so he'd be worked his ass off by her or any other captain.

The events are all there but I guess it's a matter of interpretation.

TrueKnight
2009-06-19, 08:09
In other words she realizes her mistake and critizes herself for it. Good riddance. It took her 14 eps to realize what Layfon had said in ep 9, the real way of life. Until the end she gave her team nothing but trouble. Sad but true.

And between Jeanne and Lianne, er, if memory serves, she was swooning over Roger and got this hero complex. She fell into a trap last I remembered.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-19, 08:31
It was not really a mistake (somebody else would do it, remember the circumstances?) but she still apologizes as she considers Layfon a true friend by now. It's like how you cannot avoid causing harm to someone but still saying sorry for it since you care about the person. As for the way of life, she just told him how one should choose it, there's not a fixed one. It's her duty as a captain to lead the platoon to the battle, that's worlds away from being called causing trouble. If you insist on saying that, then Jeanne herself caused trouble to a whole country, not just her friends. (Luc Besson's movie went as far as having that as the main theme and it's as bad as interpreting an event's real nature can be)

Because Jeanne kept pushing her and how Roger kept her attention on Jeanne, Liane wanted to both fill the void and have Roger's affection. Jeanne was indirectly responsible for that and both Liane and Roger doesn't forgive her (until a final confrontation) and Jeanne is regretful about it even though she couldn't do anything to change the result, it's just like how Nina does. This aspect of both characters was something I liked very much, people around them refuse responsibility for their actions and they take on the blame for it even though it wasn't them that was the direct reason.

TrueKnight
2009-06-19, 08:59
Exactly, she chooses her own ways while Layfon chosen his. You say circumstances, well Layfon 'circumstances' also what made him like he is, be it past or present. This is what Nina had failed judge thoroughly. Her stubborness to see or learn what others think. When finally faced with similar 'circumstances' she finally chickened out and realized what he had said, where all she can do is nothing but apologize for her previous errors.

If by doing her duty as a captain means also giving all her squad nothing but trouble with the risk being shot by the Kei-Ra cannon, then I will consider such 'duty' nothing more but as a fatal mistake.

About Jeanne, Lianne was in the wrong imo, while Nina and Layfon's case, is like I explained.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-19, 09:25
You cannot judge anything that's being covered up correctly. It's why courts need proper and true evidence to pass the appropriate judgment. Layfon hid the truth and was dealt accordingly. And the circumstances I mentioned was him being made a military artist by the president, which would result in him fighting even if Nina never even saw him once. She already cares about what others think, (see Dinn eps and how she dealt with him) she just didn't want to work together with someone who was apparently against the things she held sacred. She had the right for that as a superior but Layfon's deceit was uncovered and she dropped the matter. The logical course of things.

Huh? Kei-Ra cannon? What are you talking about now? You should be aware that she was under complete control of haikizoku? Do you remember that she was possessed against her will? Let's not make up the events to our convenience as we go along please.

Lianne was wrong as Layfon was and Felli is, refusing to accept the gravity of their situation and avoiding responsibility is what's causing them and the people around them trouble.

TrueKnight
2009-06-19, 09:56
Layfon was appointed by the president but it was Layfon's misfortune to be picked under her. Despite with all of his heroic feats he already did he misjudged her (which I had stated several pages prior), which up until now she absolutely pales in comparison.

The squad being in the trouble they are right now is because of her hiding her secret. Leerin is there remember?

And again you bringing Felli into the picture, so I'll play Long.Felli represents character individuality who refused being used despite being someone gifted with exceptional powers. Some call this selfish, while the rest call this the 'free will' or 'freedom of right'.

Regardless what her motives and intentions are, she has proven to be a good soldier who had perfomed all her duties admirably as proven from ep 7 to ep 23.

Pales in comparison of what Nina brings, trouble.

justinstrife
2009-06-19, 09:59
Well, Alice didn't have any real competition compared to Regios with its multitude of female sidekicks that cater to a wide range of tastes. Not to mention that she doesn't have those to cross swords with, Nina has to face a good deal of adversity from deadpan loli fans and stuff. I'd say it's a matter of availability and competition.

It has NOTHING to do with female competition. Characters have to do something in order for me to hate them. Believe me, there's a reason for everything when it comes to me. EVERYTHING.

Alice was never forceful like Nina. Nowhere near. She also tried her best to understand the people who worked with her, instead of assuming they all wanted the same thing, then got pissed off and emo, when she found out they didn't. She was a lot more mature, and easier to get a long with. From the get-go, Nina forced herself on Layfon. Forced her ideals and beliefs on him. Never once did she try and crack his shell and see where he was coming from. Then, when she finds out something about his past that she didn't like, she goes and tells him they can't be in the same squad now. He had already proven himself and saved her life, the squad's lives, other civilian's lives, as well as the existence of the city. 95% of what she's done, has turned me off to her.

I can't even recall Alice ever doing anything that made me dislike her.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-19, 11:00
Layfon was appointed by the president but it was Layfon's misfortune to be picked under her. Despite with all of his heroic feats he already did he misjudged her (which I had stated several pages prior), which up until now she absolutely pales in comparison.
He hid the truth about the matter at hand and received such a qualification, this is this and that is that as the Japanese like to say. :)
The squad being in the trouble they are right now is because of her hiding her secret. Leerin is there remember?

No, the squad is in trouble because Leerin (due to Saya) and Grendan brought the trouble to Czellni's doorstep.
And again you bringing Felli into the picture, so I'll play Long.Felli represents character individuality who refused being used despite being someone gifted with exceptional powers. Some call this selfish, while the rest call this the 'free will' or 'freedom of right'.
There was another similarity in the characters surrounding the aforementioned characters, so I brought it along when the situation called for it. And what you say is universally called irresponsibility, due to the setting of Regios.
Regardless what her motives and intentions are, she has proven to be a good soldier who had perfomed all her duties admirably as proven from ep 7 to ep 23.

Pales in comparison of what Nina brings, trouble.
She did just play along to Layfon and even her fans admit that, I'll just leave at that to prevent a derail.
It has NOTHING to do with female competition. Characters have to do something in order for me to hate them. Believe me, there's a reason for everything when it comes to me. EVERYTHING.
Whatever you say, I just made a guess. :p
Alice was never forceful like Nina. Nowhere near. She also tried her best to understand the people who worked with her, instead of assuming they all wanted the same thing, then got pissed off and emo, when she found out they didn't. She was a lot more mature, and easier to get a long with. From the get-go, Nina forced herself on Layfon. Forced her ideals and beliefs on him. Never once did she try and crack his shell and see where he was coming from. Then, when she finds out something about his past that she didn't like, she goes and tells him they can't be in the same squad now. He had already proven himself and saved her life, the squad's lives, other civilian's lives, as well as the existence of the city. 95% of what she's done, has turned me off to her.

I can't even recall Alice ever doing anything that made me dislike her.
Oh my, to think that I'd have to defend such similarities of characters that are as clear as the day. :rolleyes:

Alice literally drove them around in her crusade and yeah, they were all military members so they had to face up to their responsibilities. They still whined about it all the time. What they want or not isn't and shouldn't be her concern as long as they were motivated enough to perform their duties and obey her orders, that's what a military officer is and that's how Nina does as well. She at times got over her head and it's only thanks to Randel intervening that they got off without getting themselves killed. Randel wants to stay away from all those things like Layfon does but Alice is the person that constantly has him placed in all those dangerous situations, just like Nina does. Both of them motivate the lead males because they're aware that it's what suits them and voila! It really is and they come to accept that after all the refusals!

And I have already said it many times before, right like above but again: He deceived her into such a situation and she questioned him thoroughly to leave no doubt. She couldn't have known that, others except Felli were deceived as well yet I don't see anyone blaming them for that. He already was an enigma, hiding his power and acting suspiciously over and over. As soon as Felli explains his act to them, she reforms her stance about the matter which is as good as it can get.

I'm not trying to make anyone like Nina, but the shared traits are as close as it can get for these three characters and Nina is like a bridge connecting the others by having common stuff from both. That doesn't necessarily make them all the same but they're as close as it can get without being copy-cats.

TrueKnight
2009-06-19, 11:32
He hid the truth about the matter at hand and received such a qualification, this is this and that is that as the Japanese like to say.

Layfon hid his secret while bringing positive feats, Nina hid hers while causing the exact opposite. Trouble, which she is good at right now sadly.

No, the squad is in trouble because Leerin (due to Saya) and Grendan brought the trouble to Czellni's doorstep.

Which could be prevented should she told her before hand. The 'circumstances' made it even clearer. She simply neglected them.

There was another similarity in the characters surrounding the aforementioned characters, so I brought it along when the situation called for it. And what you say is universally called irresponsibility, due to the setting of Regios.

Nina fits this 'irresponsibility', she chickned out and in fear in telling her secret because of her fears not realizing the risk. When the 'situation' calls for it, she fails in handling them, resulting the troubles we've seen so far.

She did just play along to Layfon and even her fans admit that, I'll just leave at that to prevent a derail.

Her attitude caused a much lesser impact and aftermath, while Nina 's brought a total near catastrophy with an HB finally gets a hand on her, potentially causing a much larger havoc. She's a victim of circumstantes, because she alone failed in preventing them due to her inability to lead and think thoroughly. Felli did the right thing asking her secret back then. So much could've been prevented but for naught. All because of Nina.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-19, 12:06
Layfon hid his secret while bringing positive feats, Nina hid hers while causing the exact opposite. Trouble, which she is good at right now sadly.
Layfon covered some of the facts which led people to misunderstand the motive behind his actions, his other actions don't negate that. The reason why he did so? We haven't found out yet, all that's apparent is that caused him to get misunderstood by the WHOLE world except Leerin, which brought real trouble in the form people trying to kill him and go as far as kidnapping his comrades for that reason. What were you talking about, secrets that bring trouble? There you go. He still didn't let it out.

OTOH, Nina hid a secret that would bring trouble if it wasn't kept a secret and as we see, for understandable reasons. Ignasis, Grendan, mercenary company, everyone's out looking for the host and they don't pull any punches.
Which could be prevented should she told her before hand. The 'circumstances' made it even clearer. She simply neglected them.
No, Savaris was already there. Grendan arrived shortly after. President wanted to extract it right away and Leerin was clueless about the whole issue.
Nina fits this 'irresponsibility', she chickned out and in fear in telling her secret because of her fears not realizing the risk. When the 'situation' calls for it, she fails in handling them, resulting the troubles we've seen so far.

Irresponsibility is avoiding doing honest work for the good of the people to earn a living. It's not getting scared of being chased by literally everyone except your close friends to get what they want at the cost of your life.
Her attitude caused a much lesser impact and aftermath, while Nina 's brought a total near catastrophy with an HB finally gets a hand on her, potentially causing a much larger havoc. She's a victim of circumstantes, because she alone failed in preventing them due to her inability to lead and think thoroughly. Felli did the right thing asking her secret back then. So much could've been prevented but for naught. All because of Nina.
She's not putting her hand under any stone and she still was about cost 60k lives directly, on her own will. Nina being kidnapped by a HB affects nobody else except her. Nothing could be prevented and we saw that in this last episode. Did Leerin say anything like "bring her to me, I'll fix it"? No. Did the president say "don't worry, we'll protect her"? No. Did anyone else propose a solution that didn't put her into risk? No. Nothing would change. As for Felli, she didn't care the least bit about anything else than trying to reduce her influence on Layfon. What was her reaction after learning? "So you want us to kill the captain?" Oh man, I'm so moved that I'm in tears! She cares so much about Nina! :upset:

willyvereb
2009-06-19, 12:09
Lol...seriously TrueKnight: You think about Nina as some kind of machine...well we're speaking about a character that included in visual and written mediums too so let's not forget the LN Nina. She's less bitchy and more considerate in the them...somehow the anime managed to degrade every character(It's ok if they're cutting out scenes...but adding meaningless things?). Anyways if we speak about Alice in Pumpkin Scissors made worse and similary reckless decisions. The differences lies elsewhere: She acts more feminine and noble-like(not to mention that no one ever mistook her gender:p).

Slick_rick
2009-06-19, 12:16
Layfon hid his secret while bringing positive feats, Nina hid hers while causing the exact opposite. Trouble, which she is good at right now sadly.

Layfon positive feats didn't come until Nina talked/forced some sense into him. Otherwise he'd be the same Layfon from early episodes who was running away from his problems. Also I don't know how much of this can even be contributed to her. Her hiding of the secret didn't cause Savaris to come to the city to kidnap the goat he'd still do that if it was inside someone else. The big evil guy isn't coming to the city for Nina but for Leerin and Saya. So why aren't you blaming them? Was Haia her fault too? Maybe Layfon's need to stop attracting people who want to kill/fight him.



Which could be prevented should she told her before hand. The 'circumstances' made it even clearer. She simply neglected them.

Explain to me how it could have been prevented? Would Savaris have given up if they somehow extracted the goat(possibly killing Nina in the process) or would he still steal it? I don't know anyone in the city besides Layfon would could stop him so I don't know how much good extracting it would have done, if any. As for the rest I have no idea how she's can even be given the slightest blame, though I don't doubt you could come up with some nonsensical reason like always to push the blame on her.



Nina fits this 'irresponsibility', she chickned out and in fear in telling her secret because of her fears not realizing the risk. When the 'situation' calls for it, she fails in handling them, resulting the troubles we've seen so far.

The risk was 99 percent to her and no one else. The goat didn't go looking to kill innocent citizens but FM so even she died in the process then that's doesn't hurt anyone else. I don't see how any of this is actually a result of Nina. I don't know where you pull that idea from honestly. It's both illogical and plain silly. If we take Nina out of the situation we still have the goat running lose or in someone else, Savaris still looking to capture it, and big bad still looking to kill Leerin/Saya. You make no sense.



Her attitude caused a much lesser impact and aftermath, while Nina 's brought a total near catastrophy with an HB finally gets a hand on her, potentially causing a much larger havoc. She's a victim of circumstantes, because she alone failed in preventing them due to her inability to lead and think thoroughly. Felli did the right thing asking her secret back then. So much could've been prevented but for naught. All because of Nina.

I don't see how it changed anything. All I see is you singing the same ole song consisting of throwing all the blame to Nina while ignoring all the positive changes she help made in Layfon. Even Layfon say that he doesn't blame her and he could have found a different way to live if he'd realized things sooner.

TrueKnight
2009-06-19, 12:31
Layfon covered some of the facts which led people to misunderstand the motive behind his actions, his other actions don't negate that. The reason why he did so? We haven't found out yet, all that's apparent is that caused him to get misunderstood by the WHOLE world except Leerin, which brought real trouble in the form people trying to kill him and go as far as kidnapping his comrades for that reason. What were you talking about, secrets that bring trouble? There you go. He still didn't let it out.

Because of her closed minded thinking, that didn't realize what Fon-fon did post Grendan pales compared why she did back then. That was keep relying on him to do everything. She's useless without Layfon and Felli.


OTOH, Nina hid a secret that would bring trouble if it wasn't kept a secret and as we see, for understandable reasons. Ignasis, Grendan, mercenary company, everyone's out looking for the host and they don't pull any punches.

In the end what happened? She went berserk, riskingher squad a as target for the cannon, finally being subdued by a crazy HB. Nothing but trouble.

No, Savaris was already there. Grendan arrived shortly after. President wanted to extract it right away and Leerin was clueless about the whole issue.

Because she keeps it hidden from her squad, So she wouldn't know about it. smart move by Nina as always.

Irresponsibility is avoiding doing honest work for the good of the people to earn a living. It's not getting scared of being chased by literally everyone except your close friends to get what they want at the cost of your life.

Irresponsibility is also stop bringing trouble to the people around you that nearly got them killed. Like what Nina failed to do.

She's not putting her hand under any stone and she still was about cost 60k lives directly, on her own will. Nina being kidnapped by a HB affects nobody else except her. Nothing could be prevented and we saw that in this last episode. Did Leerin say anything like "bring her to me, I'll fix it"? No. Did the president say "don't worry, we'll protect her"? No. Did anyone else propose a solution that didn't put her into risk? No. Nothing would change. As for Felli, she didn't care the least bit about anything else than trying to reduce her influence on Layfon. What was her reaction after learning? "So you want us to kill the captain?" Oh man, I'm so moved that I'm in tears! She cares so much about Nina!

What Felli did all this time, her feats totally contradicts the above. While Nina with her idealistic intention of helping others brought nothing but catastrophic so far. She's reckless, unexperienced, selfish, thinks she knows best about everything, when she actually dont. Depending on the rest of the squad saving her till the very end. She brought the most liability for her squad whether you like it or not.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-19, 12:56
You seem to be ignoring what I wrote whatsoever and go as far as bending the events rather than replying now. So I'll make use of some bold to highlight so those won't escape any eyes.
Because of her closed minded thinking, that didn't realize what Fon-fon did post Grendan pales compared why she did back then. That was keep relying on him to do everything. She's useless without Layfon and Felli.
Everybody got deceived by Layfon except Leerin and Felli understood it later. It's got nothing to do with anybody's mind, Nina's not telepathic. And nope, she was ready to let him go on ep 9 when he covered up and again on ep 17 she tried to have the squad carry his burden.
In the end what happened? She went berserk, riskingher squad a as target for the cannon, finally being subdued by a crazy HB. Nothing but trouble.

Those didn't happen because she kept it secret, the outcome would be the same no matter what.
Because she keeps it hidden from her squad, So she wouldn't know about it. smart move by Nina as always.
Leerin already knew about it, she still did NOTHING.
Irresponsibility is also stop bringing trouble to the people around you that nearly got them killed. Like what Nina failed to do.
And how exactly could she prevent that? Could anyone except Layfon resist haikizoku? Can anyone possessed control haikizoku? Does anyone want to suppress haikizoku? Or they all want to get their hands on it at the cost of the host's life?
What Felli did all this time, her feats totally contradicts the above. While Nina with her idealistic intention of helping others brought nothing but catastrophic so far. She's reckless, unexperienced, selfish, thinks she knows best about everything, when she actually dont. Depending on the rest of the squad saving her till the very end. She brought the most liability for her squad whether you like it or not.
Her so-called 'feats' (which consists of playing walkie-talkie and GPS) are never ever made for others, it's just for herself alone. Even when it's for Layfon, it's because she doesn't want her toy to get broken. Does she ever respect a choice Layfon makes? Does she ever apologize for her wrongdoing?

As for your claims about Nina, you have got nothing to back it up. You're constantly avoiding logical explanations and just blame everything on her. I don't like Felli but I'm not trying to load all the blame for everything on her, she's only responsible for what she did and wants to do on her own free will. So it looks more and more like you're making stuff up just for the sake or your argument. Sorry but it has become too apparent in this last page, like others noted. :rolleyes:

TrueKnight
2009-06-19, 12:57
Layfon positive feats didn't come until Nina talked/forced some sense into him. Otherwise he'd be the same Layfon from early episodes who was running away from his problems. Also I don't know how much of this can even be contributed to her. Her hiding of the secret didn't cause Savaris to come to the city to kidnap the goat he'd still do that if it was inside someone else. The big evil guy isn't coming to the city for Nina but for Leerin and Saya. So why aren't you blaming them? Was Haia her fault too? Maybe Layfon's need to stop attracting people who want to kill/fight him.


You’re right, he did grew because of Nina. But it also had the opposite effect on her, where he told her to lead and move on. Nina should’ve told them their secret because Zuellni have detterents by then, which are Layfon and Leerin.

Explain to me how it could have been prevented? Would Savaris have given up if they somehow extracted the goat(possibly killing Nina in the process) or would he still steal it? I don't know anyone in the city besides Layfon would could stop him so I don't know how much good extracting it would have done, if any. As for the rest I have no idea how she's can even be given the slightest blame, though I don't doubt you could come up with some nonsensical reason like always to push the blame on her.

Well not exactly extracting, but I’m playing Leerin into the picture here.

The risk was 99 percent to her and no one else. The goat didn't go looking to kill innocent citizens but FM so even she died in the process then that's doesn't hurt anyone else. I don't see how any of this is actually a result of Nina. I don't know where you pull that idea from honestly. It's both illogical and plain silly. If we take Nina out of the situation we still have the goat running lose or in someone else, Savaris still looking to capture it, and big bad still looking to kill Leerin/Saya. You make no sense.

Again you’re correct that her risks are hers alone. But because of her hiding it her squad became worried, and in the end came after her, with the risk being shot by the cannon and raped by Savaris, creating an ‘unnecessary risk’ in the aftermath, which could’ve been prevented.

I don't see how it changed anything. All I see is you singing the same ole song consisting of throwing all the blame to Nina while ignoring all the positive changes she help made in Layfon. Even Layfon say that he doesn't blame her and he could have found a different way to live if he'd realized things sooner.

Yes I agree. Thanks for reminding. I admit that Layfon grew the most because of her influences. I’m just disappointed what Layfon had received in return from her are not worth it. She admits and apologized too late in a freaking ep 23. I really like her up to ep 15. But immediately despised her on ep 16 when she’s thinking Layfon only as a tool for the match instead of his well being. Ep 23 lifted my views on her again, though only a bit.

Ahem, responding to Ultramarinus,

You seem to be ignoring what I wrote whatsoever and go as far as bending the events rather than replying now. So I'll make use of some bold to highlight so those won't escape any eyes.

Everybody got deceived by Layfon except Leerin and Felli understood it later. It's got nothing to do with anybody's mind, Nina's not telepathic. And nope, she was ready to let him go on ep 9 when he covered up and again on ep 17 she tried to have the squad carry his burden.

Yes, with only her being concerned about it. Others don’t because they know who he is. But not Nina because of her closed-mindedness back then.

Those didn't happen because she kept it secret, the outcome would be the same no matter what.

Oh? Not even with Leerin involved? I don’t; think so. Her secrecy is what caused her squad getting into trouble.

Leerin already knew about it, she still did NOTHING.

Because she realized it when Nina’s already missing. She went to shelter because surprise, she’s a civilian. A critical momentum was lost because of secrecy.

And how exactly could she prevent that? Could anyone except Layfon resist haikizoku? Can anyone possessed control haikizoku? Does anyone want to suppress haikizoku? Or they all want to get their hands on it at the cost of the host's life?

Yes there is. Leerin, with Layfon as their bodyguard.


Her so-called 'feats' (which consists of playing walkie-talkie and GPS) are never ever made for others, it's just for herself alone. Even when it's for Layfon, it's because she doesn't want her toy to get broken. Does she ever respect a choice Layfon makes? Does she ever apologize for her wrongdoing?

Oh? But others reap those benefits, that is, citizens, the city, including our dear captain. She’s terribly lucky to have people with Layfon’s and Felli’s caliber under her wings.

As for your claims about Nina, you have got nothing to back it up. You're constantly avoiding logical explanations and just bşmae everything on her. I don't like Felli but I'm not trying to load all the blame for everything on her, she's only responsible for what she did and wants to do on her own free will. So it looks more and more like you're making stuff up just for the sake or your argument. Sorry but it has become too apparent in this last page, like others noted.

As are you, you’re avoiding my arguments which I’ve stated prior. Those stuffs you listed could’ve been prevented. But all are naught. As we can see, Nina so far are creating nothing but trouble, with all the remedies available back then.

willyvereb
2009-06-19, 15:32
Sorry...but we could blame everyone with this mindset...
For example: Felli needlessly kicks Layfon whatever she feels pissed...why? Why she can't deal with it. Because of her circumstances...Layfon states himself always as a villian and perhaps everyone misunderstood him...why? Because he thinks negatively about himself...(or again) Felli argues with Layfon while he needs her help in ep 5...she endangers the people's life with that needless chatter...why? Because her circumstances and personality. Then Layfon everexerts himself without thinking about the others...result: Felli's collapse...why? Because his reasons.
Everyone of those actions were selfish...everyone acts selfish in a way and most of them never apologises for it. Why don't you let Nina act a bit selfish?
You should be the personalification of Nina's Self-hatred:)
Because she thinks that too what you said about her and hates herself every time when she does anything that relatively selfish or she (directly indirectly) couses something or endangers someone.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-19, 16:17
Yes, with only her being concerned about it. Others don’t because they know who he is. But not Nina because of her closed-mindedness back then.
Others don't because they have zero responsibility about a screw-up, she's the captain of her squad so she needs to be sure everyone can pull off teamwork and not do something outrageous to save their skin, just what Layfon professed he did.
Oh? Not even with Leerin involved? I don’t; think so. Her secrecy is what caused her squad getting into trouble.
Once more you're taking your own speculation as a fact, Leerin did nothing and didn't even try or intend to do anything after coming to Czellni and even having chat with Nina, with the knowledge about haikizoku. Even when Layfon went after Nina, she said nothing like "bring her to me, I'll fix it". Nothing, nada, zero. Your speculation has no ground.
Because she realized it when Nina’s already missing. She went to shelter because surprise, she’s a civilian. A critical momentum was lost because of secrecy.
She knew it already, she met Nina in person and talked in Czellni, at the hospital. Did she say even one word about haikizoku? No. That proves she is totally clueless about what it is, what can occur and therefore, how it can be fixed. Your speculation isn't a fact.
Yes there is. Leerin, with Layfon as their bodyguard.
So let's see.. On one hand there's your speculation of Leerin suppressing the goat and on the other hand your proposal of Layfon opposing Czellni, Grendan, Ignasis and triumphing over them? Layfon is god-like sure, but not god. :rolleyes:
Oh? But others reap those benefits, that is, citizens, the city, including our dear captain. She’s terribly lucky to have people with Layfon’s and Felli’s caliber under her wings.
They're terribly lucky to have a captain who could utilize their powers, or they were monster food already back in ep 5.
As are you, you’re avoiding my arguments which I’ve stated prior. Those stuffs you listed could’ve been prevented. But all are naught. As we can see, Nina so far are creating nothing but trouble, with all the remedies available back then.
I have already commented on your wild speculations that are based on no proof while you evade the facts presented and even bend them at times. I enjoy our discussion but you're just going too far to blame everything on Nina, even stuff that are totally remote.
Sorry...but we could blame everyone with this mindset...

Exactly, I'll go ahead and make people responsible for things in the same way:

- Nina ended up that way because Layfon resisted the goat!
- Nina ended up that way because Layfon sent her to goat!
- Nina got kidnapped because Leerin brought Savaris to be able to just see her beloved Layfon, the selfish girl!
- Platoon 17 is threatened by kei-ra cannon because Leerin holds to biggest bait for Ignasis, bringing all those monsters to Czellni!

See, you can pull stuff out of nowhere and blame people if you pull enough strings to make up facts. That's why we should remain strictly on what people did based on what they knew and their own will. Otherwise it becomes a big, senseless mess.

Tjaard
2009-06-19, 16:52
Nina's thread is always a mess lol
If you ask me i think that all 3 are selfish girl but anyone for different reason.
Nina want more power for protect what she want, involving other people for his desire; Felli found someone that understand her, so help that person until can, never mind the other, and want that person look only her; Leerin want only stay with Layfon, and does anything because this happen, never mind all those who knows and has known, as the children at the orphanage or her foster father, using her understanding of his past as an excuse for all.
One of motive that i prefer Nina is because her selfish isn't something which has layfon as reason, but is really for herself.
And well, Mayshen... yeah... Mayshen is moe... really really moe... but... for me is pretty annoying :heh:
But well anyone have his reason her for be a fan of someone so calm down a little :D

TrueKnight
2009-06-19, 21:29
Others don't because they have zero responsibility about a screw-up, she's the captain of her squad so she needs to be sure everyone can pull off teamwork and not do something outrageous to save their skin, just what Layfon professed he did.

Explain ‘screw ups’. I’ll resort to my arguments I’ve stated prior pages ago,

Unfortunately, as are you. You argued about ‘motives’, I argued about ‘facts’, ‘events that happened’.

Grendan events:

- He committed crime in Grendan and had been punished;
- Has a motive of survival;

Zuellni events

- Arrived at Zuellni, during this has his motive of survival;
- Beat squad 16, during this has his motive of survival;
- Saved the city in ep 5, during this has his motive of survival;
- Fighting the dragon in ep 7 saving the city again, during this has his motive of survival;
- Fighting Gorneo and co, during this has his motive of survival;
- Conducting surveillance to the Goat City; during this has his motive of survival;
- Confront Nina, his past exposed, stood by his ideals and during this has his motive of survival
- Confront Shante and Gorneo who probably intends to kill him, beat them off, but he spared them, during this has his motive of survival;
- Ep 12 – ep 15, during these periods he has his motive of survival;

He had his motives, but still, he didn’t commit any crimes at all. These are what you seems didn't take into account.

If we arguing about ‘motives’, then pretty much Nina’s recklessness and forcefulness should’ve been taken into account because of her nature to not thinking strategically as seen 2 years prior, in ep 2, 6, and 16. And she should’ve been strip out of her rank permanently because he’s unfit to be a leader, it could simply happen again in the future because of these events and based on ‘motives’ alone. Not because of facts.

And I still stand on such previous argument.

Once more you're taking your own speculation as a fact, Leerin did nothing and didn't even try or intend to do anything after coming to Czellni and even having chat with Nina, with the knowledge about haikizoku. Even when Layfon went after Nina, she said nothing like "bring her to me, I'll fix it". Nothing, nada, zero. Your speculation has no ground.

She knew it already, she met Nina in person and talked in Czellni, at the hospital. Did she say even one word about haikizoku? No. That proves she is totally clueless about what it is, what can occur and therefore, how it can be fixed. Your speculation isn't a fact.



Remedies were there but the ‘momentum’ was lost. Because of period of moment starting from Felli’s event up to Leerin’s arrival was not used. Instead she kept them for herself.

And once again I ask you. What are the facts already happened? Nina screwed up. She brought trouble. But were there remedies, yes.

So let's see.. On one hand there's your speculation of Leerin suppressing the goat and on the other hand your proposal of Layfon opposing Czellni, Grendan, Ignasis and triumphing over them? Layfon is god-like sure, but not god.

Leerin for the goat, Layfon for Savaris. Ignasis so far is for Dixerio and the other HBs. It’s there. As could’ve been if not for her insistence on bearing all the scret.

They're terribly lucky to have a captain who could utilize their powers, or they were monster food already back in ep 5.

Who saved Nina I wonder? Who saved Zuellni? Not Nina. It was Layfon and Felli.

I have already commented on your wild speculations that are based on no proof while you evade the facts presented and even bend them at times. I enjoy our discussion but you're just going too far to blame everything on Nina, even stuff that are totally remote.

If you want facts, what already happened, then I’ll repost my previous thought once again,

She went berserk, riskingher squad a as target for the cannon, finally being subdued by a crazy HB. Nothing but trouble.

She brought trouble for her squad and unfit to be a leader, forcing her views onto others, she's not strong, but Layfon is, which she later admitted and apologized.

You argue nothing could be done about it, well I’ve stated the possible remedies.

Slick_rick
2009-06-19, 23:49
- Arrived at Zuellni, during this has his motive of survival;- His motive was more about running away than anything else.
- Beat squad 16, during this has his motive of survival; False. He was certainly not at risk but Nina was. He jumped into help her not for survival.
- Saved the city in ep 5, during this has his motive of survival; False. He was going to run away at first per his survival instincts until Nina verbally beat him into reconsidering his actions. He then went because of his friends.
- Fighting the dragon in ep 7 saving the city again, during this has his motive of survival; -This had more to do with the President blackmailing him than anything else but I'll give you survival here. Though you fail to mention that the rest of the Platoon came to help him out once they found out.
- Fighting Gorneo and co, during this has his motive of survival; -Not really. Gorneo was out for revenge and Layfon mostly just want to show him that he wasn't such a bad guy. If it was about survival killing Gorneo would have been the best opinion.
- Conducting surveillance to the Goat City; during this has his motive of survival; -Wasn't just he doing his job?
- Confront Nina, his past exposed, stood by his ideals and during this has his motive of survival -More like he tried to hide behind these ideals as a way to excuse his actions in the past. Either way though this certainly has nothing to do with survival. Whether he stood by them or recanted them Nina wasn't going to kill him.
- Confront Shante and Gorneo who probably intends to kill him, beat them off, but he spared them, during this has his motive of survival; -I only remember one fight between these guys as I stated earlier. My past statement still holds true.
- Ep 12 – ep 15, during these periods he has his motive of survival; No not at all. I don't know where you even pulled this one out of. Dinn's arc had nothing to do with Layfon's survival philosophy.

And I still stand on such previous argument.
You probably shouldn't cause they're not very sturdy.:heh:


Remedies were there but the ‘momentum’ was lost. Because of period of moment starting from Felli’s event up to Leerin’s arrival was not used. Instead she kept them for herself.

And once again I ask you. What are the facts already happened? Nina screwed up. She brought trouble. But were there remedies, yes.

What remedies? Please be specific. I don't think us or her have been shown any of the sort. You deal in broad generalization without getting into specifics(mostly because once you do you realize you have little basis for your argument). I don't remember Nina was the one who brought the goat to Zuellni nor was she the one who brought this filth monsters there either.

Leerin for the goat, Layfon for Savaris. Ignasis so far is for Dixerio and the other HBs. It’s there. As could’ve been if not for her insistence on bearing all the scret.

You're asking Nina to have a magical third sight. She had no idea Leerin was coming to the city nor the fact that Leerin is anyway able to keep the goat in check, which is only a theory. She also has no idea a crazed HB is after her, nor did Dixerio seem to want to fill her in on this Ignasis person. Nor would she be able to warn people this since she herself is in the dark. Her not keeping the secret would not have change these things and instead could have caused Nina to become like poor Dinn instead.


Who saved Nina I wonder? Who saved Zuellni? Not Nina. It was Layfon and Felli.

Who got Layfon to get off his emo butt? Not Felli, it was Nina. Layfon then got Felli off hers. So either way I see it it's a team effort. Don't you think?



She brought trouble for her squad and unfit to be a leader, forcing her views onto others, she's not strong, but Layfon is, which she later admitted and apologized.

You argue nothing could be done about it, well I’ve stated the possible remedies.

Same ole song. Nina did admit that she "felt" that way but you failed to mention that Layfon admitting that he wasn't forced, that he too had made mistakes in his past and wished he chosen differently, and also that he trusts her as leader.

You've not stated any remedies to this situation. You've used the word a lot but little beyond that.

TrueKnight
2009-06-20, 00:30
Arrived at Zuellni, during this has his motive of survival;- His motive was more about running away than anything else.

No, he was exiled. He didn’t want to leave Grendan but he conducted a crime. Zuellni is the only city he could only admitted to and he applied for general arts, because he sucks at academic. Source: Ep 2.

- Beat squad 16, during this has his motive of survival; False. He was certainly not at risk but Nina was. He jumped into help her not for survival

Which only reinforce my point. He didn’t care for himself, he would’ve let Nina beaten down but he didn’t.

- Saved the city in ep 5, during this has his motive of survival; False. He was going to run away at first per his survival instincts until Nina verbally beat him into reconsidering his actions. He then went because of his friends

Though I still think that mostly he did that because of his concerns over Mei and Co, it also didn’t change the fact that he had those motives post Grendan.

- Fighting the dragon in ep 7 saving the city again, during this has his motive of survival; -This had more to do with the President blackmailing him than anything else but I'll give you survival here. Though you fail to mention that the rest of the Platoon came to help him out once they found out.

He did this through his own will, he likes to help. Source: early ep 6. The rest of platoon did come to help, but he played the most instrumental part as Kallian had said, and Zuellni won’t be able to survive without him back then, source: ep 17.

- Fighting Gorneo and co, during this has his motive of survival; -Not really. Gorneo was out for revenge and Layfon mostly just want to show him that he wasn't such a bad guy. If it was about survival killing Gorneo would have been the best opinion.

But in the end, he spared Gorneo while keeping his survival motives intact. That is why Nina’s pissed and decided to let this slide, source: ep 10.


- Conducting surveillance to the Goat City; during this has his motive of survival; -Wasn't just he doing his job?

The risk being questioned here was his ‘motives’, he had them, so they should considered dangerous. But facts proves otherwise.

- Confront Nina, his past exposed, stood by his ideals and during this has his motive of survival -More like he tried to hide behind these ideals as a way to excuse his actions in the past. Either way though this certainly has nothing to do with survival. Whether he stood by them or recanted them Nina wasn't going to kill him

Layfon himself told her it was about survival, and Nina was upset because for survival he’s willing to taint the Martial Arts and participated in underground matches. Source: ep 9.

But it was all in the past. In Grendan, he had been duly punished. Post Grendan he did nothing but positive feats.

- Confront Shante and Gorneo who probably intends to kill him, beat them off, but he spared them, during this has his motive of survival; -I only remember one fight between these guys as I stated earlier. My past statement still holds true.

Like I said, he spared Gorneo while keeping his survival motives intact. Source ep: 10.

- Ep 12 – ep 15, during these periods he has his motive of survival; No not at all. I don't know where you even pulled this one out of. Dinn's arc had nothing to do with Layfon's survival philosophy.

Please refer to Goat-City Surveillance.

With these, I still stand on my previous statements.

What remedies? Please be specific. I don't think us or her have been shown any of the sort. You deal in broad generalization without getting into specifics(mostly because once you do you realize you have little basis for your argument). I don't remember Nina was the one who brought the goat to Zuellni nor was she the one who brought this filth monsters there either.

Leerin, ep 19, when the bird ask her to pray for Saya. The goat then could be surpressed.

You're asking Nina to have a magical third sight. She had no idea Leerin was coming to the city nor the fact that Leerin is anyway able to keep the goat in check, which is only a theory. She also has no idea a crazed HB is after her, nor did Dixerio seem to want to fill her in on this Ignasis person. Nor would she be able to warn people this since she herself is in the dark. Her not keeping the secret would not have change these things and instead could have caused Nina to become like poor Dinn instead.

The Haikizoku had been the target of Grendan. Her team should’ve been informed. She didn’t realized the impact but she kept it hidden out of fear.

Who got Layfon to get off his emo butt? Not Felli, it was Nina. Layfon then got Felli off hers. So either way I see it it's a team effort. Don't you think?

Also referring to ep 5 explanation prior, eh…though your Nin -> Layfon -> Felli also made sense I admit. >_>

Same ole song. Nina did admit that she "felt" that way but you failed to mention that Layfon admitting that he wasn't forced, that he too had made mistakes in his past and wished he chosen differently, and also that he trusts her as leader.

But Layfon did commit a crime, and was duly punished. His concern was he’s battle hungry maniac who wanted to use a katana again…..But so far he managed control his inner self.

You've not stated any remedies to this situation. You've used the word a lot but little beyond that.

Made Leerin pray to Saya in order to further surpress the goat’s havoc. While for Savaris, I’m playing Layfon.

Slick_rick
2009-06-20, 01:36
You'll need to define what you mean by a "survival" motive. You seem to be trying to hide behind the vagueness of that term. To me it means that he would do anything illegal and immoral to ensure his own and things he cares about survival. We see him do this is with Gorneo but he was of course just acting to show that he's not like that anymore. We see him also almost doing it during the battle with the FM as it immoral to allow the city to be destroyed when you have to power to stop it or let a comrade be beaten because you feel like hiding your true strength.


Leerin, ep 19, when the bird ask her to pray for Saya. The goat then could be surpressed.

Not a remedy. The goat is still instead her right? The praying only temporarily suppressed the goat it didn't stop it from continuing to go wild did it now? Suppression does not equal cure which is what a remedy is.



The Haikizoku had been the target of Grendan. Her team should’ve been informed. She didn’t realized the impact but she kept it hidden out of fear.

What impact? I think it's been pointed out numerous times that the events would have still played out similar if Nina told them because of most of the unknown running around and the fact that them extracting it from her would probably be extremely dangerous to her own well-being.



But Layfon did commit a crime, and was duly punished. His concern was he’s battle hungry maniac who wanted to use a katana again…..But so far he managed control his inner self.

I don't know where you got that from. I've never heard Layfon lamenting about becoming a battle hungry maniac in anyway. This inner self I don't think even exists. Layfon problem had more to do with his own inability to understand how others felt when he was discovered to be doing illegal things. He talked about how he felt they had always betrayed him but then he wonders if they didn't feel the same way. I think you way way off on your analyzing of Layfon. Like completely different galaxies.



Made Leerin pray to Saya in order to further surpress the goat’s havoc. While for Savaris, I’m playing Layfon.

Like I said before not a remedy and it also doesn't change anything as Savaris and Layfon are going to play anyway right?

TrueKnight
2009-06-20, 02:06
You'll need to define what you mean by a "survival" motive. You seem to be trying to hide behind the vagueness of that term. To me it means that he would do anything illegal and immoral to ensure his own and things he cares about survival. We see him do this is with Gorneo but he was of course just acting to show that he's not like that anymore. We see him also almost doing it during the battle with the FM as it immoral to allow the city to be destroyed when you have to power to stop it or let a comrade be beaten because you feel like hiding your true strength.

Please allow me to repost what I meant then,

The ‘surviving together with friends’ has always been his philosophy right from the start and it didn’t happen after he arrive in Zuellni.

Now the question raised here is how he does it. Lawful or unlawful? Good or bad?.

Back in Grendan he thought of his orphanage and to survive they needed money. So no matter what the paths are, he’d do it be it how ‘unlawful’ or ‘bad’ might it seems, just if he could get the money. Resulting of him being exiled and deemed as a criminal and nearly received capital punishment if it weren’t for the amnesty given by the Queen. His intentions were good but it’s the way he exercised them.

Now in Zuellni, his philosophy is still there, but because of his teammates (he used on fighting alone)… and someone who will keep him in check all the time aka none other than our captain, he has to do his ‘survival’ philosophy in a ‘lawful’ and ‘good’ way.

Not a remedy. The goat is still instead her right? The praying only temporarily suppressed the goat it didn't stop it from continuing to go wild did it now? Suppression does not equal cure which is what a remedy is.

Remedy as for the whole situation, she would’ve kept in check in ep 20 until Leerin arrives to finally suppress them, possibly preventing her for going berserk, and for the sake of safety for her squad, but the current situation proves otherwise. I apologize if the term ‘remedy’ for you mean a total cure for Nina from a medical perspective where she’s free and cured from the Haikizoku’s influence, because that’s not what I meant.

What impact? I think it's been pointed out numerous times that the events would have still played out similar if Nina told them because of most of the unknown running around and the fact that them extracting it from her would probably be extremely dangerous to her own well-being.

Impact, as I posted prior,

She went berserk, risking her squad a as target for the cannon, finally being subdued by a crazy HB.

Which could’ve been prevented.

I don't know where you got that from. I've never heard Layfon lamenting about becoming a battle hungry maniac in anyway. This inner self I don't think even exists. Layfon problem had more to do with his own inability to understand how others felt when he was discovered to be doing illegal things. He talked about how he felt they had always betrayed him but then he wonders if they didn't feel the same way. I think you way way off on your analyzing of Layfon. Like completely different galaxies.

In Ayako’s sub, around minute 17, its implied Layfon lamenting the fact he the overflowed feelings of wanting to use the katana again for the purpose of battle in an analogical way with his past crimes.

Like I said before not a remedy and it also doesn't change anything as Savaris and Layfon are going to play anyway right?

With Layfon protecting her all the time if only she had said them. Layfon vs Savaris may be inevitable, but the risk of a abducted teammate situation could’ve been avoided.

Slick_rick
2009-06-20, 03:31
Please allow me to repost what I meant then,

The ‘surviving together with friends’ has always been his philosophy right from the start and it didn’t happen after he arrive in Zuellni.

Now the question raised here is how he does it. Lawful or unlawful? Good or bad?.

Back in Grendan he thought of his orphanage and to survive they needed money. So no matter what the paths are, he’d do it be it how ‘unlawful’ or ‘bad’ might it seems, just if he could get the money. Resulting of him being exiled and deemed as a criminal and nearly received capital punishment if it weren’t for the amnesty given by the Queen. His intentions were good but it’s the way he exercised them.

Now in Zuellni, his philosophy is still there, but because of his teammates (he used on fighting alone)… and someone who will keep him in check all the time aka none other than our captain, he has to do his ‘survival’ philosophy in a ‘lawful’ and ‘good’ way.

K. Basically I don't see your point. We're in agreement that his philosophy in Grendan was messed up and thankfully he grew and change it. This doesn't really change the fact no one has a problem with his "current" philosophy as "willing to do illegal/immoral things" and not is a significant change to a philosophy.

Also your argument for this was that he had no screw-ups but here you admit that Nina keeps him in check. So doesn't that mean you understand that if she didn't then he could possibly screw up?:eyebrow: I think then you'd agree that she was wise to be concerned and take action.



Remedy as for the whole situation, she would’ve kept in check in ep 20 until Leerin arrives to finally suppress them, possibly preventing her for going berserk, and for the sake of safety for her squad, but the current situation proves otherwise. I apologize if the term ‘remedy’ for you mean a total cure for Nina from a medical perspective where she’s free and cured from the Haikizoku’s influence, because that’s not what I meant.

I don't even believe she knows Leerin can do anything of the sort as she was in extreme pain at the time and then immediately after she is teleported. Also like I said she has no idea Leerin is even going to Zuellni. Temporary quick fixes aren't going to change the situation much either. Either way this is far from Nina fault.

Impact, as I posted prior,

Like I posted prior Nina hiding what happened had little if any impact on the current situation. All you've done is point out the current situation and then immediately put blame on Nina even when she had no way to stop/prevent these events.



Which could’ve been prevented.

Possibly. It might have but then again are you saying that if she'd told them then the goat wouldn't still have taken over her? Basically if that had happen, before they started dissecting her, then the chances are she'd still be able to overpower everyone but Layfon and continue to the fight the FM. You actually finally make a valid point but I still don't think it enough for me to believe that her actions are main cause or greatly contribute to this conflict which honestly it does not. Her not going out there would have only made Savaris have to mow down a bunch of no names to get to her.



In Ayako’s sub, around minute 17, its implied Layfon lamenting the fact he the overflowed feelings of wanting to use the katana again for the purpose of battle in an analogical way with his past crimes.

Layfon says that he punished himself by not allowing himself to use a Katana because of his crimes but in the last battle he felt the urge to once again pick up the Katana. It in no way implies that he felt that he was becoming battle crazed. That's just nonsense.


With Layfon protecting her all the time if only she had said them. Layfon vs Savaris may be inevitable, but the risk of a abducted teammate situation could’ve been avoided.

Unless you've figured out a way to extract the goat that I'm not aware of then I don't see how it's avoidable. Unless you're implying that Nina becoming like Dinn would be a more beneficial situation? Savaris was watching and waiting for an opening and no one knew he was there or what he was up to so I think he'd be able to kidnap her in most any situation.

TrueKnight
2009-06-20, 04:51
K. Basically I don't see your point. We're in agreement that his philosophy in Grendan was messed up and thankfully he grew and change it. This doesn't really change the fact no one has a problem with his "current" philosophy as "willing to do illegal/immoral things" and not is a significant change to a philosophy.

Also your argument for this was that he had no screw-ups but here you admit that Nina keeps him in check. So doesn't that mean you understand that if she didn't then he could possibly screw up? I think then you'd agree that she was wise to be concerned and take action.

I think I see your point, so please allow me to explain by replying your post per sentences,

Also your argument for this was that he had no screw-ups

Yes he had no screw ups, as proven from 1 – 10 with his ‘motives’ intact.

but here you admit that Nina keeps him in check.

I believe Layfon won’t do stuffs that’ll harm Zuellni, but the 'possibility' (though imo relatively small) he’d be guarding Zuellni illegally is still there. She’s there to serve as both security and insurance.

So doesn't that mean you understand that if she didn't then he could possibly screw up? I think then you'd agree that she was wise to be concerned and take action.

Continuing the above the possibility/chance is there but by no means is certain or absolute, more like 30-40% at the highest. With Nina involved it can be lowered to 20-30%. The remaining risk is still there but the lower, safer, the better.

I would want her to take action, but not by closed-mindedly rejected his views, not considering his deeds, and finally said they couldn’t be in the same team because their way of thinking was different.

I don't even believe she knows Leerin can do anything of the sort as she was in extreme pain at the time and then immediately after she is teleported. Also like I said she has no idea Leerin is even going to Zuellni. Temporary quick fixes aren't going to change the situation much either. Either way this is far from Nina fault.

She didn’t know about Leerin’s powers. But as I stated, if she was to expose her secret, she would’ve kept in check by her squad or the authorities. When Layfon and Leerin finally met then something could’ve been done.

Layfon says that he punished himself by not allowing himself to use a Katana because of his crimes but in the last battle he felt the urge to once again pick up the Katana. It in no way implies that he felt that he was becoming battle crazed. That's just nonsense.

The feeling of wanting to use a katana overflowed him in battle, possibly because it’s supported by his Psyharden ways which main discipline is a katana, bound to go travelling as the queen as said while hunting FMs in the process. But after re-watching them I agree it’s not at the point of battle crazed but rather longing.

Like I posted prior Nina hiding what happened had little if any impact on the current situation. All you've done is point out the current situation and then immediately put blame on Nina even when she had no way to stop/prevent these events.

Possibly. It might have but then again are you saying that if she'd told them then the goat wouldn't still have taken over her? Basically if that had happen, before they started dissecting her, then the chances are she'd still be able to overpower everyone but Layfon and continue to the fight the FM. You actually finally make a valid point but I still don't think it enough for me to believe that her actions are main cause or greatly contribute to this conflict which honestly it does not. Her not going out there would have only made Savaris have to mow down a bunch of no names to get to her.

Unless you've figured out a way to extract the goat that I'm not aware of then I don't see how it's avoidable. Unless you're implying that Nina becoming like Dinn would be a more beneficial situation? Savaris was watching and waiting for an opening and no one knew he was there or what he was up to so I think he'd be able to kidnap her in most any situation.


So far we’ve shown no cure on how Haikizoku could be extracted without damaging the host’s brain, but we do know how to suppress them, which is Leerin. And with the knowledge that Grendan is after the goat, Layfon is there to protect her.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-20, 06:35
Rick elaborated on pretty much everything but I'll still reply to your earlier message.
Explain ‘screw ups’. I’ll resort to my arguments I’ve stated prior pages ago,

And I still stand on such previous argument.
Screw-up as in getting involved in the same kind of stuff or even some other worse unlawful activity. He clearly states that he doesn't regret his past actions which is pretty much saying "I'll do it again whenever I feel like". Imagine someone with a criminal record talking to you like that. That way of talking against a superior is clearly asking for trouble. And he wasn't surprised one bit to see Nina getting upset about it and acknowledges how his past friends in Grendan were repulsed and pushed him away too. So he's well aware what he's getting himself into by talking like that. It wasn't just Nina, everyone who knows his past condemns him and stays away. Sole exception is Leerin.

Remedies were there but the ‘momentum’ was lost. Because of period of moment starting from Felli’s event up to Leerin’s arrival was not used. Instead she kept them for herself.
You stated that "we know praying suppresses it" in your response to Rick. What I have been asking for several times that you keep ignoring: Does Leerin know she can suppress it? Does anyone else in Nina's vicinity or Nina know it? The answer is no. Not to mention that Leerin will spend all her life praying for Nina and Layfon will keep protecting her from a dozen HB's, Ignasis (oh yes they haven't forgot about her, already attacked in Myath so they wouldn't stop now) and Czellni. Your supposed remedy is doomed to fail sooner or later, even if Leerin had a clue.
And once again I ask you. What are the facts already happened? Nina screwed up. She brought trouble. But were there remedies, yes.
The facts are that everything would play out the same and all of your suggestions are based on assumptions and speculations, which none of them can be proven based on what we see. Anime characters aren't omnipotent like the viewer and if they haven't seen or learned something by themselves, they cannot know what we know.
Leerin for the goat, Layfon for Savaris. Ignasis so far is for Dixerio and the other HBs. It’s there. As could’ve been if not for her insistence on bearing all the scret.

Ignasis already is after Nina, as I've told above. It's a matter of time, potentially hours. It's not like queen will give up once Savaris is beaten. The president also wants the goat out so Layfon will have to beat up whole of Czellni as well.
Who saved Nina I wonder? Who saved Zuellni? Not Nina. It was Layfon and Felli.Who made them do that? Nina. They didn't give a damn about the city. You keep telling it was the trio, but Layfon was having a flashback to show his replenished attention towards his friends after Nina talked sense into him.
If you want facts, what already happened, then I’ll repost my previous thought once again,

She brought trouble for her squad and unfit to be a leader, forcing her views onto others, she's not strong, but Layfon is, which she later admitted and apologized.

You argue nothing could be done about it, well I’ve stated the possible remedies.
Your made-up 'facts' again, I was referring to those.

- She didn't go berserk, it was the goat. It controls the person once he's done that.
- As such, she didn't risk anyone with the cannon. It was not her choice.
- She had already passed out when Savaris attacked. :rolleyes:

She forced her views onto nobody, she just didn't want to have an underling that stood against her principles, which was her just right as a superior. We're all aware that everyone's weak compared to Layfon (maybe save for the queen) so what's the deal?

TrueKnight
2009-06-20, 07:33
Screw-up as in getting involved in the same kind of stuff or even some other worse unlawful activity. He clearly states that he doesn't regret his past actions which is pretty much saying "I'll do it again whenever I feel like". Imagine someone with a criminal record talking to you like that. That way of talking against a superior is clearly asking for trouble. And he wasn't surprised one bit to see Nina getting upset about it and acknowledges how his past friends in Grendan were repulsed and pushed him away too. So he's well aware what he's getting himself into by talking like that. It wasn't just Nina, everyone who knows his past condemns him and stays away. Sole exception is Leerin.

My stance is what I've posted regarding his positive feats in Zuellni along with what I've posted prior above.

About his crimes, In Grendan, everyone knew and shunned him and he has been punished. In Zuellni he's an irreplacable asset, Kallian knew he was to valuable to replace. He'd rather dump Nina than Layfon. That, combined with all his deeds. Where she pales in comparison.

You stated that "we know praying suppresses it" in your response to Rick. What I have been asking for several times that you keep ignoring: Does Leerin know she can suppress it? Does anyone else in Nina's vicinity or Nina know it? The answer is no. Not to mention that Leerin will spend all her life praying for Nina and Layfon will keep protecting her from a dozen HB's, Ignasis (oh yes they haven't forgot about her, already attacked in Myath so they wouldn't stop now) and Czellni. Your supposed remedy is doomed to fail sooner or later, even if Leerin had a clue.

Yes Leerin knows she can surpress it as proven with ep 19. They wihin the vicinity didn't know because it was her who kept it as a secret at the first place.

Dozen HBs? They'd be too busy fending off Ignasis' armies and the FM. So far Savaris' the only one appointed to retreive the goat which may be held off by Layfon. The threat may be deterred.


The facts are that everything would play out the same and all of your suggestions are based on assumptions and speculations, which none of them can be proven based on what we see. Anime characters aren't omnipotent like the viewer and if they haven't seen or learned something by themselves, they cannot know what we know.

All are visible and could be implemented based on what the prevous events had foretold us. With the primary cards are Layfon and Leerin.

Ignasis already is after Nina, as I've told above. It's a matter of time, potentially hours. It's not like queen will give up once Savaris is beaten. The president also wants the goat out so Layfon will have to beat up whole of Czellni as well.

No, the possible preventions were there. About the president he wanted to do that because Nina already became a goat aka possessed. Which again, could've been prevented.

Who made them do that? Nina. They didn't give a damn about the city. You keep telling it was the trio, but Layfon was having a flashback to show his replenished attention towards his friends after Nina talked sense into him.

It's the empty alley that mostly made him realized about the safety of the trio. Layfon and Felli contributed directly to the safety of Zuellni, while Nina was being nearly bug nutrition.

Your made-up 'facts' again, I was referring to those.

- She didn't go berserk, it was the goat. It controls the person once he's done that.
- As such, she didn't risk anyone with the cannon. It was not her choice.
- She had already passed out when Savaris attacked.

She forced her views onto nobody, she just didn't want to have an underling that stood against her principles, which was her just right as a superior. We're all aware that everyone's weak compared to Layfon (maybe save for the queen) so what's the deal?

The facts are:

- she knew she couldnt control it, the Haikizoku finally possesed her, naturally her team got worried and finally chased her with the risk being shot at. Finally getting beaten up by an HB in the process.

These events equals to trouble. Caused by her own insistence in hiding the secret.

Forced her views against nobody because she didn't her underling go against her principle as a superior? What the heck is that? you can have any kind of principle as long you keep doing your duty as a good soldier. That's what Layfon did, combined with his feats back then with his role as an irreplaceable military asset.

If Nina's somebody's subordinate and then her captain said that he didn't like her idealistic principles, so she must changed them, it would sound
ridiculous.
Phew.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-20, 08:28
My stance is what I've posted regarding his positive feats in Zuellni along with what I've posted prior above.

About his crimes, In Grendan, everyone knew and shunned him and he has been punished. In Zuellni he's an irreplacable asset, Kallian knew he was to valuable to replace. He'd rather dump Nina than Layfon. That, combined with all his deeds. Where she pales in comparison.
You're once again ignoring the fact that punishment isn't equal to rehabilitation. Layfon states that he hasn't learned his lesson. Nina is rather bothered with what he may do from now on since he tells her that his ideas haven't changed since back then. If he had told her that he repented, she wouldn't want to part ways. He was already suspicious due to earlier deceptions, his deeds warranted nothing.

And once again you're ignoring another fact: Layfon would be transferred to another platoon, Nina just didn't want to work in the same platoon. I don't understand how you can blatantly insist on something's not even implied.
Yes Leerin knows she can surpress it as proven with ep 19. They wihin the vicinity didn't know because it was her who kept it as a secret at the first place.

Dozen HBs? They'd be too busy fending off Ignasis' armies and the FM. So far Savaris' the only one appointed to retreive the goat which may be held off by Layfon. The threat may be deterred.
No, she has no idea about what the goat is, what the risks are and what to do with it. Otherwise she'd talk to Nina about it right away. Instead she had irrelevant small-talk. Even after Layfon went after Nina, Leerin does neither talk nor think about the goat. She's clueless.

All are visible and could be implemented based on what the prevous events had foretold us. With the primary cards are Layfon and Leerin.

All you offer are your assumptions and speculations, which were proven to be wrong in the last two eps as I have been explaining in detail.
No, the possible preventions were there. About the president he wanted to do that because Nina already became a goat aka possessed. Which again, could've been prevented.
The president wants the goat out of her in any case, because it's intervening with Czellni's movement. That's why Czellni's stuck there with Grendan. Changing to mask mode has nothing to do with it.
It's the empty alley that mostly made him realized about the safety of the trio. Layfon and Felli contributed directly to the safety of Zuellni, while Nina was being nearly bug nutrition.
Oh my, running in circles due to you ignoring the order of things again. Layfon and Felli wanted to run away. Nina awakens Layfon from his slumber, who in turn forces Felli to cooperate. If it wasn't for Nina, Layfon was running to a hole to crawl in.
The facts are:

- she knew she couldnt control it, the Haikizoku finally possesed her, naturally her team got worried and finally chased her with the risk being shot at. Finally getting beaten up by an HB in the process.

These events equals to trouble. Caused by her own insistence in hiding the secret.

Forced her views against nobody because she didn't her underling go against her principle as a superior? What the heck is that? you can have any kind of principle as long you keep doing your duty as a good soldier. That's what Layfon did, combined with his feats back then with his role as an irreplaceable military asset.

If Nina's somebody's subordinate and then her captain said that he didn't like her idealistic principles, so she must changed them, it would sound
ridiculous.
Phew.
So an earthquake can occur and you'll blame it on Nina, right? Seriously, there's a limit to reaching conclusions out of nowhere.

Leerin is clueless about haikizoku's nature and what to do with it. Layfon can't protect her against 99% of the people and monsters we saw in the anime. The troubles cannot be avoided.

No, you cannot earn dirty money relying on your title and wound a witness. Such a person would never be given any position in any military, ever. Still, in Regios setting this particular guy is god-like and that's why the president makes an exception. Still, if the journalist girl made his past a newspaper story, things could get very sour for him. It's not just Nina's principles, it's the living creed of all military artists.

TrueKnight
2009-06-20, 09:17
You're once again ignoring the fact that punishment isn't equal to rehabilitation. Layfon states that he hasn't learned his lesson. Nina is rather bothered with what he may do from now on since he tells her that his ideas haven't changed since back then. If he had told her that he repented, she wouldn't want to part ways. He was already suspicious due to earlier deceptions, his deeds warranted nothing.

And once again you're ignoring another fact: Layfon would be transferred to another platoon, Nina just didn't want to work in the same platoon. I don't understand how you can blatantly insist on something's not even implied.

Sorry but you also ignored the fact (which I've posted earlier) that even with his motives he managed not to stray off.You say his deeds warranted him nothing. If it weren't for him she and Zuellni would've been bug food. Morever he's been a good soldier back then while in Zuellni, not violating any orders.

Yes she could removed him out from the squad, which unfortunately for
Layfon, she didn't. And Nina can return on being ordinary again.

No, she has no idea about what the goat is, what the risks are and what to do with it. Otherwise she'd talk to Nina about it right away. Instead she had irrelevant small-talk. Even after Layfon went after Nina, Leerin does neither talk nor think about the goat. She's clueless.

She didn't know because Nina kept quite about it, so her squad including Layfon wouldn't know, which could be passed onto her should Nina told them from the start. But she didn't.

All you offer are your assumptions and speculations, which were proven to be wrong in the last two eps as I have been explaining in detail.

I'm sorry but I have to say the same to you. You also have been ignoring the possibilities that might occured as I've posted earlier. Proven wrong in the last 2 eps? Leerin didn't know because she thought everything so far was under control. Only to find the opposite during her discussion with Layfon. But by then Nina had went missing.

Besides if not Leerin, Nina would've had Layfon who's capable on subduing the goat singlehandedly as shown in ep 23. More reason why she should've told them sooner.

The president wants the goat out of her in any case, because it's intervening with Czellni's movement. That's why Czellni's stuck there with Grendan. Changing to mask mode has nothing to do with it.

They have Leerin, and finally Layfon, capable to subjugate the goat.

Oh my, running in circles due to you ignoring the order of things again. Layfon and Felli wanted to run away. Nina awakens Layfon from his slumber, who in turn forces Felli to cooperate. If it wasn't for Nina, Layfon was running to a hole to crawl in.

Apogize if you feel that way. I was merely stating what were the events in ep 5. I already said that Nina also contributed to the event, but it wasmostly because Layfon's remembering the trio.

And in terms of usefullness, it was Layfon and Felli who did the most part. Nina was in the back in awe because she couldn't do a thing within her
powers but to rely on Layfon.

So an earthquake can occur and you'll blame it on Nina, right? Seriously, there's a limit to reaching conclusions out of nowhere.

Leerin is clueless about haikizoku's nature and what to do with it. Layfon can't protect her against 99% of the people and monsters we saw in the anime. The troubles cannot be avoided.

No, you cannot earn dirty money relying on your title and wound a witness. Such a person would never be given any position in any military, ever. Still, in Regios setting this particular guy is god-like and that's why the president makes an exception. Still, if the journalist girl made his past a newspaper story, things could get very sour for him. It's not just Nina's principles, it's the living creed of all military artists.

Earthquake? Why would I blame Nina out of nowhere without coherent basis?I blame her because the situation could've been avoided with the possibilites I stated. Such situation would've been prevented with Leerin and Layfon's involvement don't you think?

Yes this is Regios, a cruel and polluted world where people lived out of fear being consumed by beasts outside their city premises. Exactly why people like Layfon is required. In Zuellni he had been both a good soldier and citizen, saving people be them civil or millitary. If only Nina had realized all his deeds in Zuellni. Finally the living creed of each military artists differs from eachother, such as the Psyhardens, Salinvan Mercenaries and the Heaven Blades.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-20, 10:46
Sorry but you also ignored the fact (which I've posted earlier) that even with his motives he managed not to stray off.You say his deeds warranted him nothing. If it weren't for him she and Zuellni would've been bug food. Morever he's been a good soldier back then while in Zuellni, not violating any orders.

Yes she could removed him out from the squad, which unfortunately for
Layfon, she didn't. And Nina can return on being ordinary again.
Warranted him nothing because he's a mysterious character whose past is unknown, already deceived her squad and captain and bang! His past is revealed and it's scarred by a serious criminal offense that nearly resulted in capital punishment. Moreover, he insists that he did nothing wrong. For all they can know at that point, he could have been trying to gain their trust to do the same thing here like he did before.

Yeah, just removing from squad, not city. I hope we reached an understanding there.
She didn't know because Nina kept quite about it, so her squad including Layfon wouldn't know, which could be passed onto her should Nina told them from the start. But she didn't.
She already knew it as she witnessed it herself! How else do you think she could tell Layfon?

I'm sorry but I have to say the same to you. You also have been ignoring the possibilities that might occured as I've posted earlier. Proven wrong in the last 2 eps? Leerin didn't know because she thought everything so far was under control. Only to find the opposite during her discussion with Layfon. But by then Nina had went missing.
I've been explaining in detail as to why your assumptions and speculations regarding the dealing with haikizoku aren't correct. If Leerin had the slightest idea about what a haikizoku is, she'd already know that it cannot be kept in control by oneself and would offer help right away when she saw Nina. This alone proves that her knowledge about it is non-existent..
Besides if not Leerin, Nina would've had Layfon who's capable on subduing the goat singlehandedly as shown in ep 23. More reason why she should've told them sooner.
Another speculation that assumes anime characters can see into the future and read minds. Layfon himself didn't know what to do until that exact moment, he was thinking: "how should I deal with it?" just seconds before.
They have Leerin, and finally Layfon, capable to subjugate the goat.
Both clueless, both did it in the heat of the moment. Neither are shown or told to be effective indefinitely.
Apogize if you feel that way. I was merely stating what were the events in ep 5. I already said that Nina also contributed to the event, but it wasmostly because Layfon's remembering the trio.

And in terms of usefullness, it was Layfon and Felli who did the most part. Nina was in the back in awe because she couldn't do a thing within her
powers but to rely on Layfon.
Sorry but you were totally omitting the part you had to do support your argument there. Sure the engine moves the car, but it can do nothing without a starter motor. It's not that I'm downplaying Layfon's part (someone else could do Felli's part, the mother wasn't far away) but you're downplaying Nina totally there. Not to mention that she led the artists until that point to delay the monsters and fought herself to death while the unit routed. Something that we never saw anyone do except Layfon.
Earthquake? Why would I blame Nina out of nowhere without coherent basis?I blame her because the situation could've been avoided with the possibilites I stated. Such situation would've been prevented with Leerin and Layfon's involvement don't you think?
That's about the same with what you've doing in these last pages, going as far as to blame her for the squad being threatened by the cannon. Simple logic demands that nobody is to blame for something like that, an event unpreventable by anyone. If anything, it would be the president who ordered them to go without any backup or Savaris who kidnapped her. I simply don't understand your weird reasoning.

And no, it wouldn't be prevented by them as I explained thoroughly and gave the reasons why. I also told about the factions who wanted to extract the goat, who are EVERYONE except platoon 17.
Yes this is Regios, a cruel and polluted world where people lived out of fear being consumed by beasts outside their city premises. Exactly why people like Layfon is required. In Zuellni he had been both a good soldier and citizen, saving people be them civil or millitary. If only Nina had realized all his deeds in Zuellni. Finally the living creed of each military artists differs from eachother, such as the Psyhardens, Salinvan Mercenaries and the Heaven Blades.
Required and utilized, which Nina does throughout the series as the president foresaw at the start. If only Layfon didn't cover up the truth behind his motivation back then, so that nobody would be deceived into believing he was a villain. And finally the living creed of military artists doesn't differ at all, which is why Layfon is universally condemned for his actions in Grendan, Czellni and by the Salinvan mercenaries except two people who are blind with his love.

TrueKnight
2009-06-20, 11:19
Warranted him nothing because he's a mysterious character whose past is unknown, already deceived her squad and captain and bang! His past is revealed and it's scarred by a serious criminal offense that nearly resulted in capital punishment. Moreover, he insists that he did nothing wrong. For all they can know at that point, he could have been trying to gain their trust to do the same thing here like he did before.

Oh, but he had his feats where if it weren't for him Nina or Zuellni wouldn't have been standing or even alive.

She already knew it as she witnessed it herself! How else do you think she could tell Layfon?

Because Nina kept quiet so she thought everything was under control? Until she realize them while talking with Layfon but then Nina already went missing?


I've been explaining in detail as to why your assumptions and speculations regarding the dealing with haikizoku aren't correct. If Leerin had the slightest idea about what a haikizoku is, she'd already know that it cannot be kept in control by oneself and would offer help right away when she saw Nina. This alone proves that her knowledge about it is non-existent.

As I’ve explained with you with the possibilities above where Nina had kept it hidden. Should she exposed it in ep 20, the outcome would’ve been different with Leerin and Layfon being there as a deterrent.

Another speculation that assumes anime characters can see into the future and read minds. Layfon himself didn't know what to do until that exact moment, he was thinking: "how should I deal with it?" just seconds before.

Both of them didn’t know about them but this further reinforce by arguments that the necessary preventive measures were there. With Leerin added with Layfon. Should she already told them and while she’s in the squad custody the goat suddenly activates, Layfon would’ve probably done the same act like what he’s capable in episode 23, or with Leerin suppressant measures.

Both clueless, both did it in the heat of the moment. Neither are shown or told to be effective indefinitely.

Clueless, but could’ve been effective should the goat activates under her platoon’s surveillance.

Sorry but you were totally omitting the part you had to do support your argument there. Sure the engine moves the car, but it can do nothing without a starter motor. It's not that I'm downplaying Layfon's part (someone else could do Felli's part, the mother wasn't far away) but you're downplaying Nina totally there. Not to mention that she led the artists until that point to delay the monsters and fought herself to death while the unit routed. Something that we never saw anyone do except Layfon.

The starter was the lonely alley where Layfon had realized the what he wanted to protect which was the trio as shown in ep 5. Someone else’s couldn’t’ done Felli’s part due to the part she’s the only one capable on detecting targets miles away even surrounded by obstacles, that and with exceptional talent she managed to locate them quickly than your average nen-I user.

That's about the same with what you've doing in these last pages, going as far as to blame her for the squad being threatened by the cannon. Simple logic demands that nobody is to blame for something like that, an event unpreventable by anyone. If anything, it would be the president who ordered them to go without any backup or Savaris who kidnapped her. I simply don't understand your weird reasoning.

And no, it wouldn't be prevented by them as I explained thoroughly and gave the reasons why. I also told about the factions who wanted to extract the goat, who are EVERYONE except platoon 17.

Please refer to my previous posts where it could’ve been prevented should Nina exposed her secret. The necessary preventive measures were already there. Clueless is one thing, but surely not useless and both Leerin and Layfon could be used as remedies.


Required and utilized, which Nina does throughout the series as the president foresaw at the start. If only Layfon didn't cover up the truth behind his motivation back then, so that nobody would be deceived into believing he was a villain. And finally the living creed of military artists doesn't differ at all, which is why Layfon is universally condemned for his actions in Grendan, Czellni and by the Salinvan mercenaries except two people who are blind with his love.

Layfon never deceived, he just answered only when questioned and he had every right to held on his principle, that combined with his feats and duties I’ve posted prior. And. The living creed of military artist differs such as the Salinvans who were only willing to take out half of the bugs back in episode 17, while Layfon took out the remaining half. Back then the Salinvans military artists works for money and not for the safety of Zuellni’s citizen.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-20, 11:45
Oh, but he had his feats where if it weren't for him Nina or Zuellni wouldn't have been standing or even alive.
Once more, that isn't enough by itself when the man himself speaks his mind.
Because Nina kept quiet so she thought everything was under control? Until she realize them while talking with Layfon but then Nina already went missing?
Everything couldn't be under control, she would have known that if she had the knowledge you assume she had.
As I’ve explained with you with the possibilities above where Nina had kept it hidden. Should she exposed it in ep 20, the outcome would’ve been different with Leerin and Layfon being there as a deterrent.

Both of them didn’t know about them but this further reinforce by arguments that the necessary preventive measures were there. With Leerin added with Layfon. Should she already told them and while she’s in the squad custody the goat suddenly activates, Layfon would’ve probably done the same act like what he’s capable in episode 23, or with Leerin suppressant measures.

Clueless, but could’ve been effective should the goat activates under her platoon’s surveillance.
And I'm telling you that Leerin is TOTALLY CLUELESS about the whole issue. She just saw a goat and doesn't even know what it is! She doesn't know what it can do, she doesn't know how to control, she doesn't know anything. Layfon again doesn't know what to do about it. They could do NOTHING, they offer to do nothing about it. And the most important part is that, Nina doesn't know if anyone can do anything about it without getting her into veggie state.

Add another fact to this: President would still order it to get removed so they'd have to either beat whole city into submission or totally destroy it because Czellni's fairy also resides within Nina now. They cannot even leave the city because that would spell its doom.

The starter was the lonely alley where Layfon had realized the what he wanted to protect which was the trio as shown in ep 5. Someone else’s couldn’t’ done Felli’s part due to the part she’s the only one capable on detecting targets miles away even surrounded by obstacles, that and with exceptional talent she managed to locate them quickly than your average nen-I user.
The starter is definitely Nina but by now I understand that you'll never come to accept it no matter what. :rolleyes:
Please refer to my previous posts where it could’ve been prevented should Nina exposed her secret. The necessary preventive measures were already there. Clueless is one thing, but surely not useless and both Leerin and Layfon could be used as remedies.
I already commented about them multiple times and pointed out why the end situation wouldn't change. The only difference could have been a showdown in Czellni which resulted in its destruction or the extraction of haikizoku with unknown effects on Nina.
Layfon never deceived, he just answered only when questioned and he had every right to held on his principle, that combined with his feats and duties I’ve posted prior. And. The living creed of military artist differs such as the Salinvans who were only willing to take out half of the bugs back in episode 17, while Layfon took out the remaining half. Back then the Salinvans military artists works for money and not for the safety of Zuellni’s citizen.
He did deceive, that's what you do when you only tell part of an event to lead someone into believing something. The living creed of military artists demands that they shouldn't take part in illegal activities for self-benefit and then clean up witnesses. That much is certain and is proven over and over throughout the series since everyone who knows about Layfon's past either exiled him, strongly condemned him or tried to kill him. Even his lovers didn't acknowledge that he was right. You should be able to accept such an obvious fact at the very least.

TrueKnight
2009-06-20, 12:06
Once more, that isn't enough by itself when the man himself speaks his mind.

Ignoring all his past positive feats in Zuellni I presume? That had eventually saved her and all of Zuellni’s citizens? all that she wanted to protect all the long?

Everything couldn't be under control, she would have known that if she had the knowledge you assume she had.

She’s not an overseer as you speak, but her hiding the secret when her squad had every right to know after being missing for so long and had them worried to death seems didn’t go well into her.

And I'm telling you that Leerin is TOTALLY CLUELESS about the whole issue. She just saw a goat and doesn't even know what it is! She doesn't know what it can do, she doesn't know how to control, she doesn't know anything. Layfon again doesn't know what to do about it. They could do NOTHING, they offer to do nothing about it. And the most important part is that, Nina doesn't know if anyone can do anything about it without getting her into veggie state.

Add another fact to this: President would still order it to get removed so they'd have to either beat whole city into submission or totally destroy it because Czellni's fairy also resides within Nina now. They cannot even leave the city because that would spell its doom.

Yes she knew as the bird had said. Pray to Saya. But it was kept in the dark because in ep 20 Nina refuses to expose them. Eventhough she didn’t know that Layfon or Leerin could’ve helped her, if only she exposed them sooner the squad including Layfon would’ve kept her in check. When the possession occurs, Layfon or Leerin could’ve been there to prevent it.

The president? No, because Zuellni is with her so they’re basically inside the city. It’s because Nina went haywire outside that the prez gave that order.

The starter is definitely Nina but by now I understand that you'll never come to accept it no matter what.

Nina had some role but the starter is the trio and the flying paper where some reminiscence of Leerin’s letter (primary reason in the novel).

I already commented about them multiple times and pointed out why the end situation wouldn't change. The only difference could have been a showdown in Czellni which resulted in its destruction or the extraction of haikizoku with unknown effects on Nina.

As I’ve commented multiple times also that even though Nina didn’t know about, if she had told them her secrets back in episode 20, the squad would’ve realized it and helped her sooner. Remedies like Leerin or Layfon had already available, though at the time not test proven but it’s worth the try rather than hiding it. Instead she went missing and look what happen

He did deceive, that's what you do when you only tell part of an event to lead someone into believing something. The living creed of military artists demands that they shouldn't take part in illegal activities for self-benefit and then clean up witnesses. That much is certain and is proven over and over throughout the series since everyone who knows about Layfon's past either exiled him, strongly condemned him or tried to kill him. Even his lovers didn't acknowledge that he was right. You should be able to accept such an obvious fact at the very least.

Oh, you mean like, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and being duly punished in Grendan, confronting Nina and she shunned him just because his principle differs from her, when all she did all those time was actually relying on him and that she’s nothing if it weren’t for him? And as for military artist not participating in illegal activities, then what about the Salinvans supporting the ‘overkill’ drugs cartel in ep 12 and 13? Like I said, their goals differs. Please check the previous episodes once again.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-20, 12:36
Ignoring all his past positive feats in Zuellni I presume? That had eventually saved her and all of Zuellni’s citizens? all that she wanted to protect all the long?
She didn't ignore, (that's why she hesitates and thinks about it during ep 9-10) it just wasn't enough by itself against other factors like his lies in the past, his own word and his own past.
She’s not an overseer as you speak, but her hiding the secret when her squad had every right to know after being missing for so long and had them worried to death seems didn’t go well into her.
I was talking about Leerin's knowledge about 'Haikizoku 101' there, which amounts to none.
Yes she knew as the bird had said. Pray to Saya. But it was kept in the dark because in ep 20 Nina refuses to expose them. Eventhough she didn’t know that Layfon or Leerin could’ve helped her, if only she exposed them sooner the squad including Layfon would’ve kept her in check. When the possession occurs, Layfon or Leerin could’ve been there to prevent it.

The president? No, because Zuellni is with her so they’re basically inside the city. It’s because Nina went haywire outside that the prez gave that order.
No, Nina didn't know as she was under extreme duress by the goat at the time. What you're saying is like a patient during an operation knowing what the surgeons do. Nina doesn't know if anyone can help her and that's what matters. Because she knows that EVERYONE ELSE is hunting it. That's enough justification to make a living, breathing human being into keeping it a secret.

The president wants the goat out because it's intervening with the city's movement already before the mask appeared, that's why they're sitting ducks in front of Grendan. Watch ep 23 again please.
As I’ve commented multiple times also that even though Nina didn’t know about, if she had told them her secrets back in episode 20, the squad would’ve realized it and helped her sooner. Remedies like Leerin or Layfon had already available, though at the time not test proven but it’s worth the try rather than hiding it. Instead she went missing and look what happen
As I said above and before, Nina doesn't know that anyone can help her. That ultimately is enough by itself to make her keep a secret, because she'll be threatened by three different factions if they knew about it, including her home city. And those remedies you propose aren't there, they're merely band-aids that were applied unconsciously on a whim.

By the same logic, Layfon should have let the goat possess him back then and none of this would have happened. Your argument relies on too many ifs with no certified methods proven.
Oh, you mean like, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and being duly punished in Grendan, confronting Nina and she shunned him just because his principle differs from her, when all she did all those time was actually relying on him and that she’s nothing if it weren’t for him? And as for military artist not participating in illegal activities, then what about the Salinvans supporting the ‘overkill’ drugs cartel in ep 12 and 13? Like I said, their goals differs. Please check the previous episodes once again.
Let's see:

- The orphans he fed spit on his face.
- The city he protected booed him.
- The student of the man he wounded wants to kill him.
- His queen exiled him.
- President blackmails him.
- Haia wants to kill him.

ALL THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW OF HIS MISDEEDS SHUNS/CONDEMNS/WANTS TO KILL HIM, IT IS NOT ONLY NINA'S PRINCIPLES. Please watch the whole series again if you cannot remember such a topic that was presented throughout nearly every second episode.

TrueKnight
2009-06-20, 13:12
She didn't ignore, (that's why she hesitates and thinks about it during ep 9-10) it just wasn't enough by itself against other factors like his lies in the past, his own word and his own past.

His ‘lies’ based on principle and his right to have them? against his admirable feats while he’s in Zuellni, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and already being duly punished in Grendan.

I consider that to be uneven. Layfon is right one in this case.

I was talking about Leerin's knowledge about 'Haikizoku 101' there, which amounts to none.

She didn’t knew she about the goat, but she knew she had problems and she had with her the necessary preventive measures to deal with it, but wouldn’t know because Nina kept it a secret from her squad aka Layfon. So Leerin wouldn’t know.

No, Nina didn't know as she was under extreme duress by the goat at the time. What you're saying is like a patient during an operation knowing what the surgeons do. Nina doesn't know if anyone can help her and that's what matters. Because she knows that EVERYONE ELSE is hunting it. That's enough justification to make a living, breathing human being into keeping it a secret.

The president wants the goat out because it's intervening with the city's movement already before the mask appeared, that's why they're sitting ducks in front of Grendan. Watch ep 23 again please.

She was in extreme duress and was sick, therefore she should’ve known she’s uncapable to participate or to lead and should let others replaced her for the time being. Everyone else is hunting the Haikizoku but she has Layfon with her and later Leerin. Combined all that and you have a person unfit to be a leader.

Yes your right, but basically Zuellni stopped moving because the goat activates. Which again could’ve been prevented should she told this issue earlier with Layfon and Leerin being there. Kallian? There's Felli and Layfon, he needed them and would've heed to their advices which is not to kill Nina.


As I said above and before, Nina doesn't know that anyone can help her. That ultimately is enough by itself to make her keep a secret, because she'll be threatened by three different factions if they knew about it, including her home city. And those remedies you propose aren't there, they're merely band-aids that were applied unconsciously on a whim.

By the same logic, Layfon should have let the goat possess him back then and none of this would have happened. Your argument relies on too many ifs with no certified methods proven.

And hence she’s unfit to be a captain because she knew she had trouble within her but still insisting in carrying out her duty, resulting to trouble. Instead being kept in check or treated she roam around the premises. Again I’ve stated many times that even though everyone aside from Nina were clueless, but the possibility for it being prevented from being berserk were there. With Layfon and Leerin.

And the goat couldn’t possess Layfon because he’s could resist it. Nina should’ve realized this in ep 17 but she insisted on fighting the goat instead waiting for back up, ended up her being possessed. Though she’s trying Zuellni nevertheless she screwed up.


] Let's see:

- The orphans he fed spit on his face.
- The city he protected booed him.
- The student of the man he wounded wants to kill him.
- His queen exiled him.
- President blackmails him.
- Haia wants to kill him.

ALL THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW OF HIS MISDEEDS SHUNS/CONDEMNS/WANTS TO KILL HIM, IT IS NOT ONLY NINA'S PRINCIPLES. Please watch the whole series again if you cannot remember such a topic that was presented throughout nearly every second episode.

There are two events being questioned, Grendan events post-Grendan, that is Zuellni,

My previous posts,


Unfortunately, as are you. You argued about ‘motives’, I argued about ‘facts’, ‘events that happened’.

Grendan events:

- He committed crime in Grendan and had been punished;
- Has a motive of survival;

Zuellni events

- Arrived at Zuellni, during this has his motive of survival;
- Beat squad 16, during this has his motive of survival;
- Saved the city in ep 5, during this has his motive of survival;
- Fighting the dragon in ep 7 saving the city again, during this has his motive of survival;
- Fighting Gorneo and co, during this has his motive of survival;
- Conducting surveillance to the Goat City; during this has his motive of survival;
- Confront Nina, his past exposed, stood by his ideals and during this has his motive of survival
- Confront Shante and Gorneo who probably intends to kill him, beat them off, but he spared them, during this has his motive of survival;
- Ep 12 – ep 15, during these periods he has his motive of survival;

He had his motives, but still, he didn’t commit any crimes at all. These are what you seems didn't take into account.

If we arguing about ‘motives’, then pretty much Nina’s recklessness and forcefulness should’ve been taken into account because of her nature to not thinking strategically as seen 2 years prior, in ep 2, 6, and 16. And she should’ve been strip out of her rank permanently because he’s unfit to be a leader, it could simply happen again in the future because of these events and based on ‘motives’ alone. Not because of facts.

Haia wants to kill him because Layfon’s in his way in obtaining the Haikizoku and taking lightly of the Psyharden way, the president blackmails him because that’s the only way he would’ve agreed in cooperating with him but by no means shunned him, instead giving him a class A tutorship. Please watch the whole ordeal once again from ep 1 to 14 for this matter. And I guess you agree about military artists differs from each other.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-20, 16:41
This has turned into one of those epic duels that lasts 3 days and 3 nights. :heh:
His ‘lies’ based on principle and his right to have them? against his admirable feats while he’s in Zuellni, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and already being duly punished in Grendan.

I consider that to be uneven. Layfon is right one in this case.
There's no right or wrong in the matter but Layfon's cover-up causes trouble, he should have told why he did that in clear detail. There would be no misunderstanding then. For that reason, if there's anyone to blame, it's Layfon for deceiving them all.
She didn’t knew she about the goat, but she knew she had problems and she had with her the necessary preventive measures to deal with it, but wouldn’t know because Nina kept it a secret from her squad aka Layfon. So Leerin wouldn’t know.
Leerin doesn't know what it is so she doesn't know what to do with it. All she did back then was heeding to bird fairy's call. And even if Layfon or others knew about the secret, they wouldn't know what Leerin can do so it's eventually up to her to use initiative. But she wouldn't do that because she doesn't know what haikizoku is.
She was in extreme duress and was sick, therefore she should’ve known she’s uncapable to participate or to lead and should let others replaced her for the time being. Everyone else is hunting the Haikizoku but she has Layfon with her and later Leerin. Combined all that and you have a person unfit to be a leader.
She was okay for the moment and she didn't know the extent of its influence. She couldn't abandon them with Myath on the doorstep and she would of course want to participate in the battle, she has been putting her all for that next city battle. She wouldn't miss it, I guess you should know why based on her past.
Yes your right, but basically Zuellni stopped moving because the goat activates. Which again could’ve been prevented should she told this issue earlier with Layfon and Leerin being there. Kallian? There's Felli and Layfon, he needed them and would've heed to their advices which is not to kill Nina.
As I told before, goat already was altering their route and it would continue to do so. In ep 23, did you see Layfon or Felli going against the president when he said he wants to extract the goat? No. So your presumption is void.
And hence she’s unfit to be a captain because she knew she had trouble within her but still insisting in carrying out her duty, resulting to trouble. Instead being kept in check or treated she roam around the premises. Again I’ve stated many times that even though everyone aside from Nina were clueless, but the possibility for it being prevented from being berserk were there. With Layfon and Leerin.
First of all, she couldn't give a break without letting out the reason. Second is that Myath battle is what she's been looking towards in these last years. She was alright up until ep 22 anyway. Did you ever see Leerin and Layfon talking or thinking about how to suppress it after their exchange at the hospital? No. That shows that they still have no idea what to do about it.

And the goat couldn’t possess Layfon because he’s could resist it. Nina should’ve realized this in ep 17 but she insisted on fighting the goat instead waiting for back up, ended up her being possessed. Though she’s trying Zuellni nevertheless she screwed up.
Yeah but I just applied your logic, it could all have been prevented if Layfon sacrificed himself, like you expect Nina to sacrifice herself. We had talked about ep 17 before, she was alone and she had lost communication after falling down to the room. There wasn't really an option to pull out while Czellni laid beneath the goat's feet anyway (we also know how much she loves the fairy) and she took her chance, haikizoku had already begun to channel his power afterward.
There are two events being questioned, Grendan events post-Grendan, that is Zuellni,

My previous posts,

Haia wants to kill him because Layfon’s in his way in obtaining the Haikizoku and taking lightly of the Psyharden way, the president blackmails him because that’s the only way he would’ve agreed in cooperating with him but by no means shunned him, instead giving him a class A tutorship. Please watch the whole ordeal once again from ep 1 to 14 for this matter. And I guess you agree about military artists differs from each other.
Taking lightly, what's that? That's what exactly Layfon does with those misdeeds as he loses the HB as a direct result. Losing such an honor for petty cash, smearing the school's reputation as well. The president can blackmail him, why? Because it would ruin his reputation to the ground and the city would be a living hell to him even if he could stay, as his misdeeds are against everything their military artists stand for. We also saw that during ep 19, when the president lectured a dumbfounded Layfon about their pride. Their stance on the issue could be anything on the spectrum of Nina to Gorneo. And I doubt many would be as lenient as Nina, recall Dinn and those other no-name captains with their snob attitude towards even Nina?

There's also the fact that it was only the queen's initiative that he was spared from the axe and we heard nothing good about him from any other HB users so far. So his misdeeds are universally against all military artists' creeds.

willyvereb
2009-06-20, 17:35
Trueknight: your statements origins mainly from your perspective and not from the characters'. That's the problem. We, people such a beings that can't perdict the future or read others' mind lesiurely...That's why we consider decisions as good ones if they're using our best knownledge and counting in the circumstances.
Examples:-Nina's coldness towards Layfon after she learned the truth:He stated it that way to be misunderstood. I bet the only the ones with distanced view, like Felli or the ones like Leerin, who knows Layfon well enough who's not misinterpreted that.
-Using Layfon: At least it bothers her...they can't do it otherwise so it's can't be helped. And the time when she "confessed" herself that she's only bothered about Layfons injury because of the interplatoon match just a way to decieve herself. She's, like Layfon has an extreme amount of self-hatred, and she similary like convince herself about her badness.
Actions may later proved to be wrong or worse than another decision but we can't help it. Your expectations about Nina are inhuman. And other thing actions are judged by not only the act and result, but by the intentions, state of mind and knownledge too. As I said formerly you often miss the other three or at least two.
Not to mention that no matter how good a person, everyone's selfish a little bit and that means they're acting selfish somethimes at the very least.Nina's rush towards Vanze was iselfish, hiding the truth about the Haikizokou was selfish too.But they're excusable a bit and they're nothing compared to her selfless actions.(Not to mention that both areless weighted if we think about it:A.) No matter what Vanze would've outsmarted and defeated them, B.) Not only Nina but everyone would be scared shitless after an experience like that and they would've shut their mouths about it...be it Felli, Layfon, Sharnid, Gorneo, Vanze, Karian etc...and they have much less problem with that)

I hope my post doesn't look arrogant or pompous. I didn't want to write it that way if that's the case.

TrueKnight
2009-06-20, 19:15
There's no right or wrong in the matter but Layfon's cover-up causes trouble, he should have told why he did that in clear detail. There would be no misunderstanding then. For that reason, if there's anyone to blame, it's Layfon for deceiving them all.

It’s his right to keep all of it to himself, when finally being questioned he answered them. And Layfon was good enough with his admirable feats while he’s in Zuellni, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and already being duly punished in Grendan. Told what he did in clear and detail? Sure if only Nina wasn’t’ so forceful with her views like ‘I wouldn’t accept them’. Instead try judging thoroughly she enforce her ideal by saying they probably couldn’t be in the same platoon anymore because their ideals and motive clashes. She tend to forgot that it was because of him that she and the thing she wanted to protect the most, Zuellni, are still alive and well.

Leerin doesn't know what it is so she doesn't know what to do with it. All she did back then was heeding to bird fairy's call. And even if Layfon or others knew about the secret, they wouldn't know what Leerin can do so it's eventually up to her to use initiative. But she wouldn't do that because she doesn't know what haikizoku is.

If Nina had exposed her secret, and then Leerin had been told by Layfon, then she would’ve known that her prayer is the key for Nina’s trouble. If Layfon’s besides her, then when the goat activates it could’ve been subdued.

She was okay for the moment and she didn't know the extent of its influence. She couldn't abandon them with Myath on the doorstep and she would of course want to participate in the battle, she has been putting her all for that next city battle. She wouldn't miss it, I guess you should know why based on her past.

She knew that it could eventually hinder her duty as a squad captain. A good leader would’ve realize that their own liability could affect her team in the long-run should not treated early. The right treatment for Nina is quarantine with the squad including Layfon looking after her, with Leerin finally arrives later.

As I told before, goat already was altering their route and it would continue to do so. In ep 23, did you see Layfon or Felli going against the president when he said he wants to extract the goat? No. So your presumption is void.

Did you see Layfon or Felli following the president’s order to further extracting Zuellni or the Haikizoku out of Nina when she’s in their custody. They didn’t do it, so your reasoning is wrong. The same situation would’ve apply should Nina decide to expose her secret back then.

First of all, she couldn't give a break without letting out the reason. Second is that Myath battle is what she's been looking towards in these last years. She was alright up until ep 22 anyway. Did you ever see Leerin and Layfon talking or thinking about how to suppress it after their exchange at the hospital? No. That shows that they still have no idea what to do about it. [/quot]

In all roundup, she was unfit to lead because she knew she was sick, without considering the effect of what could’ve happen midway should the goat activates, which she realized she also couldn’t control it. She also hid her secret when should she should’ve exposed them in ep 20 to avoid further trouble earlier on. Leerin and Layfon couldn’t even think about it because she already went missing in the first place and they’reall pre-occupied in finding her.

[quote=Ultramarinus] Yeah but I just applied your logic, it could all have been prevented if Layfon sacrificed himself, like you expect Nina to sacrifice herself. We had talked about ep 17 before, she was alone and she had lost communication after falling down to the room. There wasn't really an option to pull out while Czellni laid beneath the goat's feet anyway (we also know how much s he loves the fairy) and she took her chance, haikizoku had already begun to channel his power afterward.

Meaning she’s weak, not strong as Layfon, couldn’t control the goat’s power and should’ve realized and exposed them sooner in ep 20. But she didn’t. She ended up being a liability to her team.

Taking lightly, what's that? That's what exactly Layfon does with those misdeeds as he loses the HB as a direct result. Losing such an honor for petty cash, smearing the school's reputation as well. The president can blackmail him, why? Because it would ruin his reputation to the ground and the city would be a living hell to him even if he could stay, as his misdeeds are against everything their military artists stand for. We also saw that during ep 19, when the president lectured a dumbfounded Layfon about their pride. Their stance on the issue could be anything on the spectrum of Nina to Gorneo. And I doubt many would be as lenient as Nina, recall Dinn and those other no-name captains with their snob attitude towards even Nina?

There's also the fact that it was only the queen's initiative that he was spared from the axe and we heard nothing good about him from any other HB users so far. So his misdeeds are universally against all military artists' creeds.

The misdeeds were when he’s at Grendan, he was punished. Afterwards he punished himself by using the katana and not violating all the rules in Zuellni. He accepted the president’s offer in the end, eventhough with all that fiasco Kallian or Zuellni wouldn’t have released such invaluable and capable fighter, unlike Nina. The pride of all military artist? Zuellni had a weak military and the administration secretly had been relying to Layfon for help. When finally asked for help, eventhough Kallian knew they’re doomed but finally they, the artists knew that even them can be useful for a change in order to protect the city. Nina lenient? More like her squad were made out of losers back then, with her in the helm and not accepting people’s principle I really pity Layfon. Finally, his misdeeds weren’t against all military artist, but by the rule of her-majesty Grendan in his position as an HB, which was exposing the danger that MA’s possibly aren’t humans. If you’re not an HB then you could be like what the Salinvans as military artists. Support illegal activities and works for money. I doubt the rules of Grendan could apply even apply to Zuellni or Myath.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-20, 20:07
It’s his right to keep all of it to himself, when finally being questioned he answered them. And Layfon was good enough with his admirable feats while he’s in Zuellni, saving her lives and the people in the city, doing his duties admirably as a soldier, and already being duly punished in Grendan. Told what he did in clear and detail? Sure if only Nina wasn’t’ so forceful with her views like ‘I wouldn’t accept them’. Instead try judging thoroughly she enforce her ideal by saying they probably couldn’t be in the same platoon anymore because their ideals and motive clashes. She tend to forgot that it was because of him that she and the thing she wanted to protect the most, Zuellni, are still alive and well.
Yeah, just like how police officers tell suspects that they have the right to remain silent. But that doesn't mean that they'll receive the correct judgment and they're warned about what they're talking. He hid the truth, we was dealt accordingly. Simple as that.

If Nina had exposed her secret, and then Leerin had been told by Layfon, then she would’ve known that her prayer is the key for Nina’s trouble. If Layfon’s besides her, then when the goat activates it could’ve been subdued.
If Nina had told it, the president would have it extracted before Leerin reached the city.
She knew that it could eventually hinder her duty as a squad captain. A good leader would’ve realize that their own liability could affect her team in the long-run should not treated early. The right treatment for Nina is quarantine with the squad including Layfon looking after her, with Leerin finally arrives later.

The thing is that there's no treatment, only extraction. Did you see anyone talking about treatment in ep 23? No. Do they know about Leerin coming? No. Do they know if Leerin can do anything about it? No.
Did you see Layfon or Felli following the president’s order to further extracting Zuellni or the Haikizoku out of Nina when she’s in their custody. They didn’t do it, so your reasoning is wrong. The same situation would’ve apply should Nina decide to expose her secret back then.
They were bringing her back to the president but Savaris intervened and kidnapped her. They didn't have the means to extract it themselves anyway and they wouldn't bother with it in the middle of the wasteland while there's a war raging on with cannon aimed towards them. The president only asked them to bring her back, he'd take care of the rest.
In all roundup, she was unfit to lead because she knew she was sick, without considering the effect of what could’ve happen midway should the goat activates, which she realized she also couldn’t control it. She also hid her secret when should she should’ve exposed them in ep 20 to avoid further trouble earlier on. Leerin and Layfon couldn’t even think about it because she already went missing in the first place and they’reall pre-occupied in finding her.
Haikizoku possession isn't really a disease with documented symptoms and cure. She didn't know what was going to happen and that's why she was scared, confused and went as far as visiting Dinn in his state. As I said, there are ample reasons to hide it while there's no good reason to explain to others from Nina's view. She doesn't watch Regios after all, like willy said. Leerin didn't even have one ounce of thought about how to help Nina even after Layfon went after her. She's flat out clueless, she didn't even tell him about the prayer and yes, she had time. She used that time trying to kiss him instead.
Meaning she’s weak, not strong as Layfon, couldn’t control the goat’s power and should’ve realized and exposed them sooner in ep 20. But she didn’t. She ended up being a liability to her team.
Show me someone else except the queen who's more powerful than Layfon. Why do you keep repeating "she's weaker than Layfon" when nobody compares their strength? She's doing what she can but she's not Jesus, she doesn't need to suffer for all humanity's sins to pass as a decent person. There are tons of other crossroads till the goat ended up in her but you're trying to dump all blame of the trouble that's caused by the goat on her. There were ample chances to subdue it before ep 17 and people ranging from Layfon to mercenaries all failed. Eventually it was Layfon who sent Nina after it. If we were to apply your logic that requires Nina to watch Regios on all Regios characters, there are tons of them who are responsible for letting haikizoku roam free.
The misdeeds were when he’s at Grendan, he was punished. Afterwards he punished himself by using the katana and not violating all the rules in Zuellni. He accepted the president’s offer in the end, eventhough with all that fiasco Kallian or Zuellni wouldn’t have released such invaluable and capable fighter, unlike Nina. The pride of all military artist? Zuellni had a weak military and the administration secretly had been relying to Layfon for help. When finally asked for help, eventhough Kallian knew they’re doomed but finally they, the artists knew that even them can be useful for a change in order to protect the city. Nina lenient? More like her squad were made out of losers back then, with her in the helm and not accepting people’s principle I really pity Layfon. Finally, his misdeeds weren’t against all military artist, but by the rule of her-majesty Grendan in his position as an HB, which was exposing the danger that MA’s possibly aren’t humans. If you’re not an HB then you could be like what the Salinvans as military artists. Support illegal activities and works for money. I doubt the rules of Grendan could apply even apply to Zuellni or Myath.
People didn't forgive him because he was punished. Nobody knows about his self-punishment and nobody would care anyway, would you forgive a murderer who said he no longer uses Desert Eagle but only uses Beretta? It's absurd beyond reason. He accepted the president's offer because he knew it would ruin his new life. Why? Because of the creed of MA's. You should be aware that being weak compared to other factions means nothing for a military's pride. A country may have a 100-man strong army but their soldiers would have no less pride than another with 1 million-strong. We see that in ep 19, when they ride to their death while Layfon was asking the president why they were doing it even though they knew that they had no chance. The president then lectures him about their pride, even after relying on Layfon until that day. Layfon was at a loss for words because he had forsaken that pride for money. Nina was lenient as she didn't try to kill, exile or spit on Layfon, she just wanted to avoid working together.

And I'm very much sure that all of the cities would harshly punish a MA who uses his title for personal gain and wound a witness. We see that it goes as far as capital punishment. Do you honestly believe that there would be a city that would let that go?

TrueKnight
2009-06-20, 23:08
Yeah, just like how police officers tell suspects that they have the right to remain silent. But that doesn't mean that they'll receive the correct judgment and they're warned about what they're talking. He hid the truth, we was dealt accordingly. Simple as that.

This police happen to live in a cruel and unforgiving world, Regios, where suspect had saved the police including thousands of lives using his powers. By doing so he kept being lawful within the area’s premises.

If Nina had told it, the president would have it extracted before Leerin reached the city.

Her squad wont let it happen, like Layfon or Felli. Even so they’re also Leerin to keep her suppressed. But should it come to the worst and there’re no other choice, if like Kallian said its for the good for the whole city, which also she had stand for, then she of all people should know that risk.

The thing is that there's no treatment, only extraction. Did you see anyone talking about treatment in ep 23? No. Do they know about Leerin coming? No. Do they know if Leerin can do anything about it? No.

I wonder why? Because the momentum of such treatment can be treated was already lost in ep 20 onwards. In ep 22 all is too late where military order had been issued. If Nina had told them, it would be quarantine where she was to be kept in check. With Layfon and finally Leerin arrives later.

They were bringing her back to the president but Savaris intervened and kidnapped her. They didn't have the means to extract it themselves anyway and they wouldn't bother with it in the middle of the wasteland while there's a war raging on with cannon aimed towards them. The president only asked them to bring her back, he'd take care of the rest.

Savaris kidnapped her because she was out in the premises instead of being checked, because early measures were not taken due to her secrecy and it cost her squad dearly. When the Haikizoku was suppressed and handled then pretty much Zuellni would’ve been able to move again. At the time her squad probably would prevent the prez for doing so, but again, if its for the benefit to all Zuellni, then Nina would’ve realized the risk and accepted it.

Haikizoku possession isn't really a disease with documented symptoms and cure. She didn't know what was going to happen and that's why she was scared, confused and went as far as visiting Dinn in his state. As I said, there are ample reasons to hide it while there's no good reason to explain to others from Nina's view. She doesn't watch Regios after all, like willy said. Leerin didn't even have one ounce of thought about how to help Nina even after Layfon went after her. She's flat out clueless, she didn't even tell him about the prayer and yes, she had time. She used that time trying to kiss him instead.

If she was scared and such, knew she was bearing a disease that would’ve deem her unfit to lead by MA standard and could creating risk such as being possessed in the middle of battle, then why bother leading? Its quite unprofessional. And like I said should have she told them about the secret way back in ep 20 so the momentum with Layfon and Leerin to find a cure could’ve been handled better.

Show me someone else except the queen who's more powerful than Layfon. Why do you keep repeating "she's weaker than Layfon" when nobody compares their strength? She's doing what she can but she's not Jesus, she doesn't need to suffer for all humanity's sins to pass as a decent person. There are tons of other crossroads till the goat ended up in her but you're trying to dump all blame of the trouble that's caused by the goat on her. There were ample chances to subdue it before ep 17 and people ranging from Layfon to mercenaries all failed. Eventually it was Layfon who sent Nina after it. If we were to apply your logic that requires Nina to watch Regios on all Regios characters, there are tons of them who are responsible for letting haikizoku roam free.

As I posted She didn’t have the power but insisted she had them by carrying off herself. She’s unfit to be a leader by ep 20 where she had realized she had been possessed but still insisted on leading. What have her actions brought her and to the rest of the squad, trouble, till the very in ep 24. Sad but true.

People didn't forgive him because he was punished. Nobody knows about his self-punishment and nobody would care anyway, would you forgive a murderer who said he no longer uses Desert Eagle but only uses Beretta? It's absurd beyond reason. He accepted the president's offer because he knew it would ruin his new life. Why? Because of the creed of MA's. You should be aware that being weak compared to other factions means nothing for a military's pride. A country may have a 100-man strong army but their soldiers would have no less pride than another with 1 million-strong. We see that in ep 19, when they ride to their death while Layfon was asking the president why they were doing it even though they knew that they had no chance. The president then lectures him about their pride, even after relying on Layfon until that day. Layfon was at a loss for words because he had forsaken that pride for money. Nina was lenient as she didn't try to kill, exile or spit on Layfon, she just wanted to avoid working together.

And I'm very much sure that all of the cities would harshly punish a MA who uses his title for personal gain and wound a witness. We see that it goes as far as capital punishment. Do you honestly believe that there would be a city that would let that go?

Nobody would care so why bother bringing it up? Does the guy using the beretta kept being lawful in his new area? Does the guy happen to be the only guy in the vicinity who’s capable fending off an entire attack of aliens? He accepted the presidents offer because he was a Heaven Blade where he committed a crime while being one, his position and title back then which he had already been punished. It’s not the creed of all MAs as proven with the Salinvans and their illegal activities. And Layfon’s motives were always about survival right from the start, he did it while he’s an HB, was captured and penalized finally exiled. In Zuellni while being lawful he held his motives. Nina can be lenient or even try to kill him (which I’m certain it would’ve been the opposite should it happen), in the end the president and Zuellni would’ve choose him over her. The MA’s as I said differs from each other where Layfon was punished when he’s in his position as an HB, the Salinvans had proven to be a different area altogether with their illegal activities.

BetoJR
2009-06-21, 02:51
This has turned into one of those epic duels that lasts 3 days and 3 nights. :heh:
And are also a pain to read, with all those walls of text... :heh:

satomianzaki
2009-06-21, 04:19
lol... :)

Ultramarinus' and TrueKnight's continued discussion and exchange of ideas are certainly entertaining...makes me wonder where i stand...but certainly i'm pro-Nina...

gonna miss reading their posts now that csr has come to an end...

but still...i think TK should not be that harsh on bashing and attacking Nina...she's not perfect but certainly not evil to deserve such hate...

Ultramarinus
2009-06-21, 06:49
Heh, thanks. I certainly enjoyed discussing myself but I guess it's time to bring it to a closure like the anime did. Maybe we can continue with the next season. :p

But before that, I'll reply to a newer topic that TK mentioned and thus explain why I'm wishing to end it now:
But should it come to the worst and there’re no other choice, if like Kallian said its for the good for the whole city, which also she had stand for, then she of all people should know that risk.

At the time her squad probably would prevent the prez for doing so, but again, if its for the benefit to all Zuellni, then Nina would’ve realized the risk and accepted it.
You're expecting Nina to do what's among the hardest sacrifices in the world. (not exaggerating, I can only think of paralysis, missing multiple limbs or maybe painful terminal cancer as a worse condition) You must know what a horrendous thing vegetable state is without me telling. It's worse than death. It really is appalling to see you demand such a sacrifice from Nina for the sake of the city, yet say that Felli abandoning city to death is free will and common right.

I think that shows the extent of your unreasonable criticism and while you have such an extreme, prejudiced bias towards characters, I doubt that anything I say will get through to you. Knowing that, it seems meaningless to continue exchanging mostly same issues as we should have already presented our cases clear enough to let others understand our arguments. So I want to end it with a reference to Gintama (ep 141, the 3-day long epic duel between Umibouzu and King of Night's end) which suits this perfectly: :heh:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6884/umibouzu.jpg

TrueKnight
2009-06-21, 07:06
You're expecting Nina to do what's among the hardest sacrifices in the world. (not exaggerating, I can only think of paralysis, missing multiple limbs or maybe painful terminal cancer as a worse condition) You must know what a horrendous thing vegetable state is without me telling. It's worse than death. It really is appalling to see you demand such a sacrifice from Nina for the sake of the city, yet say that Felli abandoning city to death is free will and common right.

I think that shows the extent of your unreasonable criticism and while you have such an extreme, prejudiced bias towards characters, I doubt that anything I say will get through to you. Knowing that, it seems meaningless to continue exchanging mostly same issues as we should have already presented our cases clear enough to let others understand our arguments.


And yet you have failed to read what I had wrote, which I said if its come worst to the worst. If the remedy as Layfon and Leerin were out of the question. And sacrifice isn’t really out from Nina’s book. As stated in ep 2 in her past if its for Zuellni even if its death then she would gladly take that risk. You say Felli’s free will right now, well Nina’s exercising her free will to live right now, with the risk of stopping the city and endangering tens of thousands of people. Now you finally know what Felli’s free will and individuality is.

You say unreasonable criticism well for you at least its okay for Nina to exercise her free will to keep her secret and endangering people of Zuellni, with the exception if only she sacrificed herself, yet you’re blaming both Layfon and Felli for exercising their right. I see your playing double standard here but I hope you realize what I meant. Freedom of will existed whether in Nina, Layfon or Felli regardless what circumstances they are in, be it they strong or not, in the end, they’re after all, still human. ;)

It’s unfortunate in the end you deem my arguments as unreasonable and prejudiced, when you as well were the same. I was merely pointing out this fact. Nevertheless I enjoy our discussion.

willyvereb
2009-06-21, 07:20
Sacrafice in the heat of battle or sacraficing oneself's sanity an entirely different thing. Nina has stated at the Din Dee arc that she does everything in her power to protect others but if it's possible not while sacraficing herself. She's reckless but not sucidial(at least from the time the story's started...her hometown and the previous intercity match showed it a bit other way...but probably she values more her honor than her life).
And about the "remedy": As Ultramarinus said previously: Leerin don't know about the Haikizokou's danger much or that her treatment was just temporaly and Nina has no knownledge about how the Goat got repressed. So there's not much place to argue about that.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-21, 07:25
TK, yes I read that, but ep 5 was a worse comes to worst situation as well and you deemed refusing to fight free will there. That wasn't even a sacrifice, Felli just needed to play walkie-talkie behind city walls as usual. That wasn't free will or exercising the right to live, she had no risk to her life and it was her job to fight.

Fighting =/= Dying

But you claim that Nina needs to sacrifice her life willingly if something similar happens. If you really hold sitting idle safe and sound while the city gets destroyed the same with sacrificing life just because of a possession by an entity against your will, you shouldn't accuse me of double standards.

As much as I criticized Felli and defended Nina, I never applied different standards on them. I judge them based on their situations, motivations and actions. I already have quite a bit of posts lying around and I very much doubt anyone could point out a double standard from among them.

TrueKnight
2009-06-21, 07:30
One must fight in order to save the city, while one must die in order to save the city. Same goal in the end. Similar type of refusal to exercise them. One is based on ‘doesn’t want to be used’ while one is based on ‘doesn’t want to die or in veggie state’.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-21, 07:40
I'd fight for at least a dozen people I know but would only die for a couple or so. If you really regard those two as the same, I rest my case. :heh:

BetoJR
2009-06-21, 09:24
This has turned quite ugly in the end, hasn't it?

Ultramarinus
2009-06-21, 12:35
Sorry if it came across so, I liked the discussion but it feels sour if it grows to look futile. I don't expect to necessarily change opinions but at the very least we should apply the same standards while exchanging views. :)

I just wanted to drop some notes from the final episode regarding our earlier discussion BTW:

- Nina wishes Layfon to suit himself, he has her complete trust.
- Layfon acknowledges Nina's lecture on ep 5, he decides to stop running and protect the people.
- Felli acknowledges Nina as well, that they fight with others for others.

So they came to accept their responsibility and Nina is relieved with confidence of that now. That was what I have been expecting all along, proved to be good development at the end.

blewin
2009-06-21, 18:41
Sorry if it came across so, I liked the discussion but it feels sour if it grows to look futile. I don't expect to necessarily change opinions but at the very least we should apply the same standards while exchanging views. :)

I just wanted to drop some notes from the final episode regarding our earlier discussion BTW:

- Nina wishes Layfon to suit himself, he has her complete trust.
- Layfon acknowledges Nina's lecture on ep 5, he decides to stop running and protect the people.
- Felli acknowledges Nina as well, that they fight with others for others.

So they came to accept their responsibility and Nina is relieved with confidence of that now. That was what I have been expecting all along, proved to be good development at the end.

agree with all your points. And also, there's this quick flash of Nina's face when Layfon was about to deliver his final blow to the filth monster. Now what does that signify?

Ultramarinus
2009-06-21, 19:06
It felt like Nina getting all BANZAI! as Layfon finally is going full force without any remorse, (she wants him to wield the blade just the previous scene) that was what I could make out of it anyway. Gotta say that was kinda weird though. :heh:

satomianzaki
2009-06-23, 12:04
Maybe we can continue with the next season. :p


yeah...till the next season...

by that time, i guess, the novel has covered and explained some crucial points of the story...

looking forward to a better continuation of the anime...and hope to see an improved version of nina...

:D

willyvereb
2009-06-23, 12:17
How do you mean improvement?:p
animation/design(making her face more feminine), power improvement(Ol' Goat-chan lends a few of his power...if she regains him), or as character(less confusing actions for example).
Well,any of them fine by me.

Ultramarinus
2009-06-23, 23:52
Maybe they will be investing more time into the characters backgrounds and promote their behavior via side-stories, something like the story from the same named manga would be nice to have. It could make people better understand why she's always going full force then. Don't touch the visuals though, she's already the best-looking female of the show without trying. Maybe that's even helping. :p

The goat issue is a critical point though, she was affected the most by the unique ending. They strayed too far by not having the goat returned before the end. So they should be giving it back ASAP or else the story can get totally messed up.

Oh and have Myath come back to beat them up so that Nina can fulfill her character's objective and then continue progressing with other matters.

satomianzaki
2009-06-24, 12:04
yeah, no need to change Nina's character design...she's very charming that way... ;)

definitely power improvement and more character development...oh and i'd like to see the other side of her...like what i heard is included in the novel...the bear and ferret issues... :D

satomianzaki
2009-07-02, 10:46
if i were to choose the best episode of anime csr, i will definitely pick episode 19...

reunion of nina and layfon...that moment when they embraced makes me really happy...

:D

willyvereb
2009-07-04, 08:52
regarding nina's strength, although some may still call her weak, i think she's really in the right path of getting stronger...even dixerio acknowledges her improvement in the use of kei on episode 19...

she may not be as strong as the others now but she has lots of potential of getting stronger in the future...and if haikizoku will continually lend it's power, now that will really heighten nina's strength...given that she will be able to control and use it properly...

really miss watching new episodes of csr...hope there will be some news of another season...

:)
The Haikizokou isn't something that a "mere human" can control. Probably it's close to impossible to even the most of the HB recievers. And if I remember well Nina lost the Haikizokou in ep 25.
In the light novel it's another thing. If I remember well Nina "managed to control" the Goat by coming to an agreement with it. So she isn't control it, but cooperate with it.
In terms of power she's strong but unrefined. Perhaps the level of Haikizokou or HB-s a whole new level of strenght. It's unfair to compare her with such "monsters".

Everyone who beat her either a person with monstrous potential or someone with more training and experience behind his back.
For example in a Haia-Nina comparsion the causes of difference in power is obvious:
-Haia is like a son of a pro wrestler. He trained that way and from a great teacher since birth. He has more and better training, experience with filth monsters and even a better weapon.
-Nina's like a street fighter who's learnt boxing for few years.She's trained in MA, but only as a "hobby" and she probably had to learn a new form of MA in Zuellni when she's arrived. And perhaps she has no experience with FM.
(other thing that most of the shounen mangas tend to ignore theese facts and thenewcommer protagonists beats experienced fighters after only a short time of effort.)
In short Nina's talented, but not the top fighter. She has other qualities that makes her special later(Haikizokou and her relation with the Electronic Fairies), but the Anime fails to show that I think.

Ultramarinus
2009-07-04, 09:32
Pretty detailed and true explanation there. It's apparent that some people regard characters based on power (sorry but quite the dumb approach) or just find an excuse to strike back at a character due to their previous, other misgivings.

I also think that HB users have some kind of gift, possibly immense kei potential. Because we see them getting Layfon in even as a little kid and then, training. He wasn't what he became when they decided to get him. That's why I don't think that people can join HB ranks with mere training, it's kind of a Jedi recruitment. You either have it from birth or you don't. Also the queen had disregarded their grand tournament as just winning that doesn't cut it. IIRC Felli also received an invitation in LN recently, that's another supporting evidence for my theory. They'll get the person no matter the motivation or lack of it is, that's why they end up with mostly eccentric members, some even leaning to evil.

So it's not fair to compare Nina with HB users and Psyharden is also a special school, more akin to those Japanese dojos, even down to using katanas. Academy city martial artists on the other hand are mostly regular army people, they train hard, drill and compete but that wouldn't warrant going toe to toe against a Jedi or samurai. :heh:

azarhal
2009-07-04, 10:25
I have to disagree with part of willyvereb comparison: Nina's not a street fighter she's a fully trained soldier (and she was before setting foot on Zuellini). So the only difference between Nina and Haia is the FM fighting experience and maybe the skills usage (Haia learned FM fighting skills, while Nina's skills seem to be oriented toward defending against many humans). Although, I haven't read novel Haia yet.

Also, the anime pretty much made Haia more powerful then powered up Savaris by giving him a bigger flashier fight against Layfon, which make no sense. The anime seems to have powered up Layfon quite a bit, while depowering everybody else when it suited them.

So deciding if Nina's is weak or not is complicated. So far in the novel, I would say that she is one of the most powerful in Zuellini.

Unfortunately, the anime didn't bother explaining anything about MA, like the difference between internal and external kei or gave much of the characters background information available in the novels.

Personally, I'm waiting to read the other translated novels to see just how much the anime changed in the power scale.

willyvereb
2009-07-04, 12:00
Nina's far from fully trained. She's just in her 3rd year of MA training. And all MA training she's got back in Rigzarion much like the noble's fencing lessons. Not to mention I said comprassion. Haia isn't a boxer, you know. It's just that he got over the same training as Layfon until he's got the HB and fought with many FM. It means an extreme difference in potential if after all that he isn't stronger than Nina.

azarhal
2009-07-04, 15:33
Nina's far from fully trained. She's just in her 3rd year of MA training. And all MA training she's got back in Rigzarion much like the noble's fencing lessons.

She isn't in her 3rd hear of MA training and it wasn't fancy fencing lessons. Like I said, the anime removed a lot of background information. It butchered the "dream of the past" seen in episode 3, where she save the fairy and fell to her death. That happens in vol. 10 and we learn quite a few things about Nina through that dream and her training as a MA before joining Zuellini.

She started her training when she was around 10 years old. She was home schooled, had multiple teachers and a really strict training schedule. She had to train everyday, while eating or writing things down, to become 100% ambidextrous. Her dad actually slapped her when she complained that she didn't like it, causing her to run away, meeting a fairy thief and almost getting herself killed. That accident pretty much caused her to double her training effort afterward though.

The Antalks are a well known MA family from the Sheinebel Regios, to the point where the fairy thief (who was a fully trained MA of the Regios) recognized Nina as a member of that family.

Nina's problems are (confirmed after 1 translated volume):

lack of experience fighting FM,
lack of AOE attacks using kei (which might be linked to 3)
and using black rods, which have poor conductivity, causing kei attacks to have shorter range. Also those rods aren't the weapons she suited for according to Harley and most of the time we see Nina fight in Zuellini the weapons have the safety on.


Actually, analyzing Nina's fighting skill she's a close range 1vsmany fighters meant to defend an area. Perfect for Intercity matches, but doesn't work well against 20 feet tall monsters though.

willyvereb
2009-07-04, 15:38
Thanks the information. I sure forgot the thing about her weapons. But I don't get it. Why she's fighting with inferior weapon? Maybe anything other than those rods are easily breaks from her swings? Or something like that? Because if she wants to be stronger then using a good weapon is logical, right?

azarhal
2009-07-04, 15:56
Thanks the information. I sure forgot the thing about her weapons. But I don't get it. Why she's fighting with inferior weapon? Maybe anything other than those rods are easily breaks from her swings? Or something like that? Because if she wants to be stronger then using a good weapon is logical, right?

I wouldn't call it inferior. After all, they seems prefect for close range gun combat.

I can only speculate about it though:

Training reasons

Heavier: means that it practice your endurance a lot more and make you stronger after usage.
Bad conductivity: I suppose that it force the user to push more kei into it to make it work. And we know that using kei = kei pool goes up over time.
Habit: Nina's to much used to heavy weapons handling.


Fighting reasons

Hardness: Doesn't break easily in combat.
Weight: Some fighting style require an heavy weapon.
Bad conductivity: If kei doesn't go that well through it, that mean that it's a better material to block kei attacks. Making it a better defensive weapon.


Personality:

Stubbornness: She decided to use heavy weapon just because.
Family tradition: Maybe everybody in the family does it too.


Maybe, if we are lucky, we will get the answer in the novels.

Ultramarinus
2009-07-04, 16:10
Those were very informative posts, thanks. :)

A shame that they even cut out those parts which would at most take up another minute to include. A little less scenery and a little more dialogue would go a long way to make a better show.

willyvereb
2009-07-06, 16:29
I wouldn't call it inferior. After all, they seems prefect for close range gun combat.

I can only speculate about it though:

Training reasons

Heavier: means that it practice your endurance a lot more and make you stronger after usage.
Bad conductivity: I suppose that it force the user to push more kei into it to make it work. And we know that using kei = kei pool goes up over time.
Habit: Nina's to much used to heavy weapons handling.


Fighting reasons

Hardness: Doesn't break easily in combat.
Weight: Some fighting style require an heavy weapon.
Bad conductivity: If kei doesn't go that well through it, that mean that it's a better material to block kei attacks. Making it a better defensive weapon.


Personality:

Stubbornness: She decided to use heavy weapon just because.
Family tradition: Maybe everybody in the family does it too.


Maybe, if we are lucky, we will get the answer in the novels.
I think the black material Dite is worse for deflecting Kei attacks, because of it's low conductivity. Because it can't absorb the kei attacks well and almost as good at deflecting as any normal material. In contrast the white Dite can absorb it better.
Probably the only reasons behind her use of black dite is the weight(her attacks relies more on the force than technique) and training(forcing her Kei more)

azarhal
2009-07-06, 17:04
I think the black material Dite is worse for deflecting Kei attacks, because of it's low conductivity. Because it can't absorb the kei attacks well and almost as good at deflecting as any normal material. In contrast the white Dite can absorb it better.
Probably the only reasons behind her use of black dite is the weight(her attacks relies more on the force than technique) and training(forcing her Kei more)

I was usinga electric=kei analogy. So a bad conductor would protect the person wielding the weapon better then a good conductor, no. I mean, rubber is better then iron to avoid being electrified.

Ultramarinus
2009-07-06, 17:52
Let's hear what Gatts has to say on the matter:

"My sword is three times thicker than usual, so it doesn't cut as easily. But if you're still alive after you're hit, it'll hurt very much."

:heh:

willyvereb
2009-07-06, 22:34
But the outer burst Kei is more like a directed energy weapon.
Let's see a Gundam comparsion then. The Mobile Suit's armor has close to no defense against beams, but it's shield has many layers of beam-absorbing cosatings(and it can survive a beam)
Same with the black and white dites. The black one don't let the incoming Kei attack to flow inside the weapon, but it faces that head-on and lets other parts of the body get hurt by it too. While a white dite can probably absorb it and protect the wielder from the whole attack despite it covered a larger area than the dite itself.

Ultramarinus
2009-07-07, 02:39
Was meant as a joke in any case, I find our knowledge about how kei acts and dites in general lacking to come with a solid answer.

However, I think that we at least were informed that dites were all made of adamantite (hence the short-hand dite comes from) due to how it can be altered and re-composed by alchemical means, the restoration chant. So it should be safe to assume that the dites only difference are in shape but not the material.

azarhal
2009-07-07, 06:47
But the outer burst Kei is more like a directed energy weapon.
Let's see a Gundam comparsion then. The Mobile Suit's armor has close to no defense against beams, but it's shield has many layers of beam-absorbing cosatings(and it can survive a beam)
Same with the black and white dites. The black one don't let the incoming Kei attack to flow inside the weapon, but it faces that head-on and lets other parts of the body get hurt by it too. While a white dite can probably absorb it and protect the wielder from the whole attack despite it covered a larger area than the dite itself.

But if the white dite absorb it, wouldn't it flow right back to the wielder's hand? Layfon make it sound like the dite is just an extension of his body, although that might just be him.

I agree that if a kei burst is a weapon of impact, incompetents are going to be hurt by blocking those attacks with a dite.

However, I think that we at least were informed that dites were all made of adamantite (hence the short-hand dite comes from) due to how it can be altered and re-composed by alchemical means, the restoration chant. So it should be safe to assume that the dites only difference are in shape but not the material.

Dite are made of different alloy - black, white, green, red - all with their own advantages and disavantages. So far in the novel we know that.

black: heavy and bad conductor.
white and green: very good conductor and good conductor (good for speed too).
red: (anime)seems to be used by people with fire attacks, like Shante.

If adamantite is the real name for all the material, I have no idea. We should have some anwser in a few weeks when vol. 2 translation is over.

blewin
2009-07-07, 21:09
um... I'm pretty sure the materials for the Dites are different. azarhal's pretty muched summed it up. Different colour indicates different materials and hence, different "uses" you might say.

azarhal
2009-08-20, 20:48
Adding more info about Nina that I found on the web. In spoiler tag, although it doesn't really have anything to do with the storyline.

Looks like I missed something about Nina's quarrel with her father over the martial art training. She actually asked him to teach her high level skills and he refused, saying that you need to learn the basic first.

I always found it strange that Nina didn't seems to have a "secret familial" skill. Now I know why, her father didn't think she was ready.

------

Also, Nina have 3 siblings. Not sure if the information is from a novel or a short story. I first found the info at a japanese fanmade wiki...but the info book about CSR (http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%82%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%BB%E3%82%AA%E3%8 3%96%E3%83%BB%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AE%E3%82%AA%E3%82%B9I-%E9%8B%BC%E6%AE%BB%E3%81%AE%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AE%E3%8 2%AA%E3%82%B9%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%89% E3%82%AC%E3%82%A4%E3%83%89-%E5%AF%8C%E5%A3%AB%E8%A6%8B%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%8 3%B3%E3%82%BF%E3%82%B8%E3%82%A2%E6%96%87%E5%BA%AB-%E9%9B%A8%E6%9C%A8-%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A5%E3%82%A6%E3%82%B9%E3%82%B1/dp/482913383X/ref=pd_sim_b_10) confirm it, at least that's what the Chinese fans say. Can't seems to get their names though, web translators aren't that much helpful with Asian language.

So Nina is the 3rd daughter and child of the Antalk. If Nina is 18 years old, the eldest is 25 years old, then her other sister is 21. She also have an half brother who's only 5 years old. Her mother died when she was 7 and her dad remarried.

I also want to comment on the anime Nina vs novel Nina. The more I read the nice translation we have, the more I can see the "butchering" that was done to Nina's character. Part because of the "plot" changes, part because of the personality changes.

I mean :twitch:. They totally changed the character. At first I thought it would be limited, so I expect novel Nina to be a bit of a tsundere with the paladin philosophy, but no anime Nina and novel Nina are like polar opposite. Nina is actually not an overzealous tsundere paladin, she is an over-analyzing bookworm paladin.

That was totally unexpected. Although, the tsundere tendencies can raise later.

cheshire
2009-08-21, 07:38
How is anime!Nina tsundere? She's a complicated character, yeah, but how does that make anyone automatically tsundere?

azarhal
2009-08-21, 08:48
How is anime!Nina tsundere? She's a complicated character, yeah, but how does that make anyone automatically tsundere?

That what people said when the anime was "on" and what TV Tropes claims (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChromeShelledRegios).

Tv Tropes definition (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere) of tsundere:

A character (usually female) who runs 'hot and cold', flipping between aggressive or confrontational(tsuntsun, meaning "aloof" or "cranky" in Japanese) and affectionate and sentimental (deredere, meaning "lovestruck"). The distinct moods usually aren't subtle, especially with the latter ranging from 'simple teasing' to 'lovestruck kindergartener who pushes you into the sandbox'. The reasons behind a Tsundere's behavior vary, but typically rise from the conflict between her feelings about the object of her affections and her reactions to having them. This can be as simple as embarrassment or frustration at being so attracted to that boy, particularly if he has certain personality quirks or behaviors that infuriate her. She may not even realize that she is attracted to him.

Slick_rick
2009-08-21, 10:59
That what people said when the anime was "on" and what TV Tropes claims (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChromeShelledRegios).

Tv Tropes definition (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere) of tsundere:

This is generally a problem with fanmade terms and there abstract meanings that causes many to overuse/misuse them. Nina is far from a Tsundere. Her moods shifts are not sudden/reasonless nor are her moods meant to hide her true feelings as you'd expect of a Tsundere. Any girl who has any sort of emotional range is often time listed as a Tsundere. Nina is a fairly complex character with a lot of emotions swirling around inside her. It hard to categorize characters with a lot of depth and generally 90 percent of anime characters have extremely little.

Also Nina was always over-analyzing in the anime. We see her doubt herself many times throughout and asked questions of Layfon. Many times he avoided answering, changed the subject or used misdirection. She did however always confront him about his morals and his way of doing things and even tried to understand him though she herself felt that she couldn't when it all came down to it. The novel will of course make this much easier to see but I never thought it was that difficult to see in the first place in the anime. Anime Nina is actually a more interesting character to me. She seems much more "human" in the anime.

willyvereb
2009-08-21, 16:37
Human? Well, LN Nina is inspirational for everyone to Jean D'Arc levels. If you mean the anime Nina has more faults and more controlled by her emotions. If you meant thiis as being more human then you must've meant it's more common. You find more people with the personality similar to the anime's nina than the LN's. But I found her actions somewhat too unexplained and unreasonable in the anime it actually takes out much of her "humanity".
Anime Nina even may fit somehow the tsundere deffinition.
But as far as I know LN Nina has no kind of "defense mechanism" to hide her feelings(like it's natural for the tsunderes)

azarhal
2009-08-21, 17:04
Also Nina was always over-analyzing in the anime. We see her doubt herself many times throughout and asked questions of Layfon.

I didn't mean over-analyzing others actions, I was actually thinking more about the philosophic analyze, i.e. "What it mean to be the strongest" or "What/who would be the strongest in this world", etc.

Something the anime totally removed from the character, mostly because they are 100% thoughts.

Slick_rick
2009-08-22, 06:51
Human? Well, LN Nina is inspirational for everyone to Jean D'Arc levels. If you mean the anime Nina has more faults and more controlled by her emotions. If you meant thiis as being more human then you must've meant it's more common. You find more people with the personality similar to the anime's nina than the LN's. But I found her actions somewhat too unexplained and unreasonable in the anime it actually takes out much of her "humanity".
Anime Nina even may fit somehow the tsundere deffinition.
But as far as I know LN Nina has no kind of "defense mechanism" to hide her feelings(like it's natural for the tsunderes)

Her action are less explained but certainly not unreasonable especially to a person like herself. Novels can get you into a person head much deeper than an anime can due to level of internal thoughts given but its fairly clear to see why many of her actions happen. Especially in regards to Layfon who she has to both try to understand when he doesn't open about about a lot and in regards to looking out for what best for her team which isn't as clear cut as it is from the viewers point of view. Layfon being the protagonist of the show is generally reason enough for the viewer to accept anything he does as right/will work out in the end but that doesn't mean that Nina can't worry about his trustworthiness and beliefs that can conflict with the group.

If you need some of her actions explained then please ask I'll be glad to go in depth into specific examples.


I didn't mean over-analyzing others actions, I was actually thinking more about the philosophic analyze, i.e. "What it mean to be the strongest" or "What/who would be the strongest in this world", etc.

Something the anime totally removed from the character, mostly because they are 100% thoughts.

True many thoughts are going to be left out but I think the crux of her character was keep in place and actually she made a more interesting character without internal thoughts because the viewer had to try to get into her head more on their own to understand her. If you didn't then you'd obviously only take her actions into account instead of the reasoning and her own personality. Whether you believe that be a flawed personality or not. She certainly wasn't perfect but neither was Layfon, his flaws just weren't accentuated as much as hers in the anime. I don't need nor like idealized characters.

Ultramarinus
2009-08-22, 08:20
I have to agree with Rick about it. Even though the anime misses the thoughts which are a big deal and totally makes up stuff like hiding the haikizoku as a secret, Nina's actions are far more than unexplainable. There's a sense and reason behind them. Tvtropes got it totally wrong, it all comes down to someone's wrong analysis to label a character as such. I generally dislike tsunderes, because they're overly synthetic most times with the senseless knee-jerk reactions. In anime, we see Nina acting friendly as a colleague with Layfon right away from the start. She's rough but it's Layfon's non-stop deceit (even after his secret leaked out) till the very last episode that causes her stern reactions. And those are in no way the senseless "baka Shinji, curl up and die" spam. In fact, Felli can be considered the real tsundere with her constant baka spam, harassment and attacks followed by "if it's you, it's ok Fonfon" moments. Now that's the type of character I detest since the time I saw Asuka of NGE. :frustrated:

azarhal
2009-08-22, 10:27
Sigh.

I guest I shouldn't have put the word tsundere there, looks like a sore subject for some viewers.

My comment wasn't about determining if Nina was or not a tsundere or what the term meant or what I understood or not of hypotical background stage character reasoning.

It was about the difference between the anime and the novel presentation of the character. I guess I didn't use the right term.

willyvereb
2009-08-22, 11:07
I know. Anime-Nina looks like a really forcefull and bossy person, while LN-Nina's the opposite. Even if they're not as different, but they look really different.
For the most viewers who hate Nina she looks like a sore looser and weak fighter, who pretends to be strong. On the top of it a jealus, power-hungry girl with really reckless behaviour. On the top of it bossy and forcefull as I mentioned.
She's not like that but her actions could be interpreted that way too.
In contrast LN Nina's quite obviously not like that. We have no chance to accuse her for those things. She thinks out throughly her actions and always reflects on her mistakes.
And thanks to the fact the Light Novels aren't auto-wimpifying every other character besides Layfon she isn't look like a weak fighter at all. Just it's ovbvious that layfon's a whole other league.

Fevvers
2009-08-22, 22:35
That's just an effect of the different mediums, willyvereb. A novel can get away with over-explaining things but it's a different thing entirely if it's a visual medium. I think anime!Nina (despite how I may have some complaints with the anime in general) has been portrayed dynamically and complex enough. Besides, from what little I've read of the novels, I didn't really notice that much difference between their portrayals (except for the power/strength upgrades, that is); LN!Nina is just as much forceful (when it comes to her team) as the one in the anime, and I wouldn't really have it any other way.

In short, sometimes less is more.

willyvereb
2009-08-23, 00:54
It's not just the effect of different mediums. They somehow messed up the plot, change the time of persional revelations thus rendered some of Nina's actions quite unexplained. On the top ofit they added some unwanted extra. It's not just the effect of cutting out scenes and internal monolouges.Even without that she would show a face closer to the LN's.
True maybe if we analyse througly her actions she may remain the same, but most of the viewers don't have time or mood for that.

Slick_rick
2009-08-23, 01:52
It's not just the effect of different mediums. They somehow messed up the plot, change the time of persional revelations thus rendered some of Nina's actions quite unexplained. On the top ofit they added some unwanted extra. It's not just the effect of cutting out scenes and internal monolouges.Even without that she would show a face closer to the LN's.
True maybe if we analyse througly her actions she may remain the same, but most of the viewers don't have time or mood for that.

So, the viewers have no responsibility to look deeper in a story, must the anime spoon fed them? It's Animes that make you think that I enjoy the fact that others have an aversion to thinking while watching Anime doesn't really make me feel any pity for them when they misinterpret stuff. Complex character usually are controversial and I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. The sequence of events were changed and some new added but I felt the changes work out fairly well. Differences were sorted out faster in the LN but stretched out in the Anime but it was fairly interesting drama and definitely not unwanted in my mind. Her actions were still reasonable and understandable if you took the time to try to understand.

BetoJR
2009-08-23, 03:20
Somehow, the notion of "complex characters" and this anime do not seem to get along so well, IMHO. :heh:

willyvereb
2009-08-23, 03:24
Well, but you make characters(at least on the "good guys' side") likable. And if they end up frustrated over her actions is not a good thing. You know many people watchs anime for fun and they don't start analysing the characters. That's why I think they should've made her more understandable. Not to mention many times her actions were controlled by her emotions in contrast with her Light Novel counterpart.
In short: They messed up her the most in the anime.
(well, the second one's Layfon then)

Slick_rick
2009-08-23, 05:36
Somehow, the notion of "complex characters" and this anime do not seem to get along so well, IMHO. :heh:

Useless comments are useless. IMHO.:heh::rolleyes:

Well, but you make characters(at least on the "good guys' side") likable. And if they end up frustrated over her actions is not a good thing. You know many people watchs anime for fun and they don't start analysing the characters. That's why I think they should've made her more understandable. Not to mention many times her actions were controlled by her emotions in contrast with her Light Novel counterpart.
In short: They messed up her the most in the anime.
(well, the second one's Layfon then)

Well its a difference in what you characterize as "likable". If the viewer takes the time to understand her actions then they aren't going to be frustrated and even then some characters are meant to frustrate the viewer i.e Shinji from NGE. I found Nina extremely likable with her flaws but her own striving to be get stronger and learn more. That others might not doesn't really bother me. You can't please everyone and trying is a recipe for failure. I watch anime and read books for analyzing characters like this so I don't see why they should dumb down shows for people who can't take the time like I do to properly analyze a show. All Anime fans aren't here for the MOE and the fanboy/girling of cliched anime characters and tropes. Give me an Evangelion, Revolutionary Girl Utena, give me drama, tragedy, Give me EMOTION!:p
In short: They made her a lot better in the anime.

willyvereb
2009-08-23, 05:52
Really? Well, then it's a clear difference in oppinion. I like LN Nina much more.
And you know the authors need to make characters likable both for casual viewers and "pro-analysers" to make it really good. It's like a cake. You can lick the cream and it's delicious, but you can eeat the whole cake and it's still delicious. Otherwise the cake's no good.
If the mayority can't understand her actions they label it as unreasonable(or even may artifical). If you can't understand a character you have a harder time for liking it.
And we know well the mayority of anime-watchers fit into the 'casual viewer' cathegory.
And anyways even if they explain Nina's motives it doesn't mean they really dumbed her down. Quite the opposite, we can understand her clearly and know who she really is.

BetoJR
2009-08-23, 08:56
Useless comments are useless. IMHO.:heh::rolleyes:
You should post less, then. Just saying. :heh:

But, in all seriousness, how can you claim ANY character in the anime to be complex? I really do not see where you're coming from. They're all pretty plain, if you ask me (Nina is an overachiever, Layfon is a fighter looking for purpose, Felli is an emotionless doll who ends up finding some feelings, and so on). Doesn't make it any less fun, but complex? I just don't see it. Now, if you cannot keep it civil, don't even bother to respond, ok?

Slick_rick
2009-08-23, 13:10
You should post less, then. Just saying. :heh:

But, in all seriousness, how can you claim ANY character in the anime to be complex? I really do not see where you're coming from. They're all pretty plain, if you ask me (Nina is an overachiever, Layfon is a fighter looking for purpose, Felli is an emotionless doll who ends up finding some feelings, and so on). Doesn't make it any less fun, but complex? I just don't see it. Now, if you cannot keep it civil, don't even bother to respond, ok?

I'm just pointing out the facts don't hate me because I talk straight. You shouldn't have posted in the first place if you didn't have anything worthwhile to post. I'll entertain you though.

A lot of the show has to do with the relationship between Nina and Layfon. Him, growing up in a harsh life and him developing skills in order to maintain the Orphanage but in doing so he believes that anything he does is justified, this later comes in conflict with Nina whose views on the military arts is more noble and idealized. Nina generally at start doesn't understand him in many ways and he doesn't understand her and likewise the views of those in the Orphanage who felt betrayed once they found out about his illegal activities.

Also Nina views on strength. She wishes strength to protect the city and believes that weakness is a sin. This comes more into play when she compares her power with Layfon. She starts doubting if she is in fact strong enough to protect the city and if she isn't then doesn't that make her weak? This is when she starts training secretly but her personality makes her put too much pressure on her own self and she often tries to take on these things by herself. Even then she is constantly trying to understand Layfon and others. She tries to question Layfon a number of times only to get evaded or he outright misrepresents his motives. This put her in a precarious situation since she has to try to balance the best for her team and her own feelings. She certainly didn't hate Layfon and realized the city needed his power but also felt conflicted by if the fact that his beliefs could cause problems later on if true and her own feelings are betrayal because of the revelation.

The Student Council President unlike her was willing to employ any method to save the school but then again we see with Dein Dee story that employing any method doesn't always lead to the best results. In this story we see that while having strong ideals she still warned Dee in order to try to save him by convincing him to stop taking the drug. She more than willing to give him a chance to redeem himself instead of turning him in without the opportunity for him to decide.

The SCP was imo also more than willing, at least at the start to use Layfon as only a tool while Nina wanted to be a friend and for him to rely on them as a team. Nina also puts a lot of the blame on herself and wonders if her actions were truly right many times. We see this in her talk with Leerin and then again at the end of the series. Both Nina and Layfon become stronger people when they rely on each other inside of take things on alone. This is kind of ruined by the power ranger ending but I digress.

Layfon is very similar to her but I don't want to go into to much about him as this isn't his thread and that be another few paragraphs...

Felli was never an emotionless doll. She just couldn't properly express her emotions on her face. She did however have many issues with being used and that why she refused to help and often times half-assed her skills so people wouldn't realize how powerful she was. She had a few other things about her character but that's the meat of it. I also don't want to get into her too much.

I pulled this all out of my head after not watching the show since it ended so I might have missed something and I shorten some analyzes down to bare bones but still Nina is a fairly complex character. If you honestly believe that she just an overachiever then I think you might have slept through the series.

willyvereb
2009-08-23, 13:27
Hoho! Hold your fangs! If someone hasn't noticed it or has percieved otherwise it doesn't mean he or she put lesser effort to understand the character. It's just that everyone sees the world differently. Like Nina had a hard time to understand Layfon at first.
And even if theyx haven't spent as much time and energy to understand the characters then it again doesn't mean they had little interest in it or something like that. As I said everyone sees the world differently. It also means they put their effort notice other things for example. Like the consistency of the story, the plot itself or simply the whole Regios world.
That's all. Please don't jump to conclusions that fast.

BetoJR
2009-08-23, 13:42
I still don't see what's so complex about Nina, even after that overly long wall of text - you simply outlined what anyone who watched the series saw. But if you do really want to over-analise her to death and find hidden meanings to her actions or whatnot, then be my guest, bub.
Don't be disheartened when not everyone agrees with your interpretations, tho (hint: I don't. I still find her character very straightforward, and not all that deep or complex or whatever it is you're trying to prove here - not to say I don't find her interesting, or a nice character; one thing does not negate the other), or even not find your points terribly interesting - and, at least, try to be less nasty about such disagreements, in the future. I don't really care for childish bantering, myself - unless it's in good spirits, which was clearly not the case with your post.

Also, I'll be the judge on what I consider a worthwhile post, thank you very much.
See ya - or not. :D

Slick_rick
2009-08-23, 14:05
I still don't see what's so complex about Nina, even after that overly long wall of text - you simply outlined what anyone who watched the series saw. But if you do really want to over-analise her to death and find hidden meanings to her actions or whatnot, then be my guest, bub.
Don't be disheartened when not everyone agrees with your interpretations, tho (hint: I don't. I still find her character very straightforward, and not all that deep or complex or whatever it is you're trying to prove here - not to say I don't find her interesting, or a nice character; one thing does not negate the other), or even not find your points terribly interesting - and, at least, try to be less nasty about such disagreements, in the future. I don't really care for childish bantering, myself - unless it's in good spirits, which was clearly not the case with your post.

Also, I'll be the judge on what I consider a worthwhile post, thank you very much.
See ya - or not. :D

You don't really address any of my points and dismiss them wholesale. That's the usual M.O with you so I'm not surprised honestly. She's not a character who operates one on concept and or one motive and has a lot of emotions going on. You don't have to find her complex. I knew that whole time when I wrote the post that you'd never agree on complexity and instead hide behind the immortal shield of "my opinion". You don't supply what you believe is a complex character to even counter my points but instead rely on outright dismissal.

This is the problem with opinions people believe that reasoning, logic and examples are trumped by it so they hid behind it whenever they feel the need. I gave you my reasoning and you gave me "I don't agree":heh: If you spent as much time coming up with that as analyzing characters in the shows it's no wonder you don't find anything complex about her.

willyvereb
2009-08-23, 15:09
Well, everyone's deffinition on complex characters differ a bit the very least.
Example:For somone who watched many harem animes even the two dimensional characters could be complex(the very least more complex than characters only defined by their archetype). While for somone who read many serious novels or anything with really developed and difficult characters it means something really outstanding.
Actually Layfon surely is a complex character or at least clearly not definable. He's a serious fighter with mean love for Military Arts and believes everything he done was the best choice. And he tends to sulk and don't want mto fight because of his failure. He's trapped between two really differing desires. But enough of him. Let's talk about Nina.
She's our "paladin" character. Honor above anything else, clear ideal, serious determination, mean thinking about her actions and correctly freflects on them. That's Nina's outer layer of personality. But it's something she forced on herself. The fairy's sacrafice had a great effect on her and she tries with all her might to help anyone she can. And perhaps she sees weakness as a sin, but it's only natural for a "paladin" and she really don't like failures.
As I said she forces herself. She wants to discover every secret of the worldand travel every part of it. But her responsibilites binds her on Zuellni. She's much more childish than she looks like.
She's similar to Layfon on that her love/desire and her determination/responsibility conflicts with each other.
So she's really not as simple as she seems. But maybe she's not complex enough for you. For me(who watched over dozens of harem animes:p) she's is.

BetoJR
2009-08-23, 15:14
Slick_rick, your reasoning holds no water. You have not listed any kind of hint for complexity or depth, you simply outlined whatever happened to the character during the course of the series. I didn't say that as my opinion. I stated it as a fact - the matter about opinions came later on. Like I said before, you're welcome to over-analise any and everything, but don't be mad when others don't really see all the "hidden" layers of meaning your superior analytical mind does. They most likely just don't care enough to.

And my usual M.O.? I've only discussed with you once, and if I remember right, you did not provide much fun there, either - instead, you went on wild tangents like you do now, trying to make yourself sound oh so intelligent for coming up with different theories for characters' motives and whatnot, but ended up failing miserably. I thought you wanted to discuss, and maybe had gotten more civil, but your points don't really merit such a thing.

I save my analises for shows that really allow themselves such treatment, like Ergo Proxy, Paranoia Agent, Eden of The East, Cross Game, Bakemonogatari and the like. Standard action fare is meant for fun. Not word games. But you're welcome to disagree - like you most likely will. I really don't care to argue for the sake of finding out who's got the biggest... argument. So, I'll leave you to it.

Ultramarinus
2009-08-24, 20:29
If you're saving your analysis to other shows, then you're more or less admitting that you didn't bother to give much consideration into the character's complexity. Previous posts carry enough detail for one to see the multi-dimensional personality, but I shall write a couple of things based on them.

So we have Nina, who at first could be written off as the lawful good paladin leader of this RPG party, there are characters like that with shallow reasoning. However, we're presented with her past and motives, then her interaction with certain individuals. She leans her alignment at time: to Chaotic Good during Dinn Dee matter, to Lawful Neutral after Layfon's secret is uncovered and finally to Chaotic Neutral about the haikizoku issue. She definitely doesn't act solely on just one principle, she has priorities: Folk, fairies, friends and herself. Based on how the confronting problem presents itself, she'll bend either the rules or her relationship. But there's always a solid reason if not reasoning behind her reactions to those, be it logic or emotion. She stops and thinks when she has the chance (about Layfon, Dinn Dee, city's future) but may act on the impulse as well, especially under stress. (Layfon's secret, haikizoku, match vs first platoon) Thus, she feels more human and realistic than your average anime character. (watched some of the shows you mentioned and some of them have quite synthetic lead characters to be honest)

BetoJR
2009-08-24, 21:00
If you're saving your analysis to other shows, then you're more or less admitting that you didn't bother to give much consideration into the character's complexity.
Not really. It just means I save my analysis for other shows, or, to put it even more simply, that I don't think this particular show deserves such attention to detail. Sorry, but this was a fun ride, not an extremely taxing one on the intellectual side, to be quite blunt. Note I'm still maintaining I deeply enjoyed the ride - don't sour it, please.
Previous posts carry enough detail for one to see the multi-dimensional personality, but I shall write a couple of things based on them.
And yet, all you did was provide me with examples of what the series did show us. There's not really much more to wonder about the characters, other than what we've been presented. Now, the novels are an altogether different matter, but I'm only talking about the anime.

In all honesty, feel free to continue your discussion. I was only stating my opinion on the matter, after being slighted for a joke.

Now, if you sincerely believe the characters in the shows I mentioned are more vanilla than the ones in CSR... well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, mate.

Natsuki Hyuga
2009-08-24, 22:21
Personally guys, people are entitled to his or her own opinion you know. One can think that an anime needs to be analyzed from top to bottom for the characters, while the others can think it's just need to be enjoyed since the characters are quite straightforward with how they act. What makes them complex or not is actually us, except when, well... Let's say it involve yanderes *CoughKaraNoKyoukaiCough* and some others really bipolar personality and actions.

It doesn't change the interesting moments of the series, really. You don't need to convince a person to think that a character in it is complex to make this series, say, unique. Regios is unique in my eye because it can combine fantasy-like RPG element to make a good series in the run. (Well, the end beg to differ, but hey, at least I enjoyed LOL-ing hard here!)

Me, I personally think that Regios both LN and anime is quite straightforward in terms of how their actions speak their personality. Crusade is a different matter from what I read from spoilers though. *Begs ackem sensei to search for the novel these days :'c* But it is my opinion and others can disagree and state their opinion in the exchange. But forcing a view is a different matter :)

willyvereb
2009-08-25, 00:54
Right. I watched many harem-animes for just pure LoL-ness. It had really bland characters and hardly any developmentson them, but the extremely hillarious scenes were the reason I watched them.
It's not the complexity of characters that decides a show's enjoyment factor.
But I have to disagree in one thing. Nina wasn't that easily understandable, because we wouldn't have that much debates about her character. And I think the anime-Nina and the LN-Nina is different because the later is my favourite in the Light Novels.

P.S: I would love to read Regios Crusade in english. Dixerio is an interesting character, even if he's "selfish" and probably blinded by revenge.

BetoJR
2009-08-25, 05:15
And that, as they say, is that. There's not a more subjective topic than what you take out of a work of fiction... and no more recurring argument than "you just didn't pay enough attention". :D

Ultramarinus
2009-08-26, 19:46
Not really. It just means I save my analysis for other shows, or, to put it even more simply, that I don't think this particular show deserves such attention to detail. Sorry, but this was a fun ride, not an extremely taxing one on the intellectual side, to be quite blunt. Note I'm still maintaining I deeply enjoyed the ride - don't sour it, please.
No matter how you word it, it comes across as simply not giving it enough thought. You may think it doesn't deserve it, but this isn't the thread for it and your message asked for a flame when people were having a discussion after giving it a thought. So it really comes as disrespect to intervene in such a way. There are other threads about the anime in general.
And yet, all you did was provide me with examples of what the series did show us. There's not really much more to wonder about the characters, other than what we've been presented. Now, the novels are an altogether different matter, but I'm only talking about the anime.

In all honesty, feel free to continue your discussion. I was only stating my opinion on the matter, after being slighted for a joke.

Now, if you sincerely believe the characters in the shows I mentioned are more vanilla than the ones in CSR... well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, mate.
I'd say that Nina is the most complex character of the series, far beyond the nearest competitor, with plentiful background info and development. Otherwise I could agree to a point.

I didn't say 'vanilla', I said synthetic. Which may involve incoherence, unjustifiable actions, non-sense motives or plain stupidity. Just making it different doesn't mean it's granted value.

willyvereb
2009-08-27, 00:07
sorry, but there's a difference between complex and complete.Nina having explained background and else means for character development/completition. The only thing I could bring up her "dual desire", her real personality and the "make-up" she use almost always, but they're not as much distinguished and I guess the LN didn't built much on it.
In conclusion:LN Nina is a well-created character. I am uncertain about the anime version, but she was interesting too. Wether she's complex or not it'sdepends on personal viewpoint..

BetoJR
2009-08-27, 04:35
No matter how you word it, it comes across as simply not giving it enough thought. You may think it doesn't deserve it, but this isn't the thread for it and your message asked for a flame when people were having a discussion after giving it a thought. So it really comes as disrespect to intervene in such a way. There are other threads about the anime in general.
Now you're disrespecting me. I was responding to comments about Nina, in her character discussion thread. I don't see a need to use another thread for it, do you? And now, simply because I do not agree with both of your perceived assumptions about her character and made a joke (with a smiley and everything), got a nasty repartee in return and responded to it, in no rude terms, I'm the one asking for a flame?
I simply don't think the character(s) in this show deserve such scrutiny, and no amount of tail wagging is gonna change that, when all you guys can present are what the show itself showed us. Sorry.

I'd say that Nina is the most complex character of the series, far beyond the nearest competitor, with plentiful background info and development.
You would, wouldn't you? :heh:
I didn't see any development, really. She was basically the same character at the beginning and end of the show - I would, honestly, not categorize any of the characters in the show as well-developed, but that's also a speculative and completely subjective point. And I do not want people accusing me of flame-bait again.

I didn't say 'vanilla', I said synthetic. Which may involve incoherence, unjustifiable actions, non-sense motives or plain stupidity. Just making it different doesn't mean it's granted value.
You could apply those exact same words to every single character in this series, actually. Throwing stones when you have a glass ceiling is not really an advisable course of action, bub.

But, really, I never intended to have such a long-winded discussion. And it should be obvious that not everyone agrees with your points, taking into account the past history of this sub-forum. So, I don't think singling me out is the best idea, either. :D

Ultramarinus
2009-08-27, 16:16
And I'm saying that when you make such a comment and afterward, when presented some information, responding with a "I can't bother with thinking about it, sorry" comes as disrespect. If you're going to present an opinion that's butting into somebody's discussion, you better back it up or get prepared for some flames. I still wouldn't say this if you didn't act like you knew it all without giving a single meaningful reply.

If you say you didn't see any development, I guess we didn't watch the same show. Not really a subjective matter since it's not the amount that's being discussed.

Many characters, yeah, every single character? No. Not that I consider Regios to be a superb anime or its characters on average, but it can still bury big production balloons like Eden of the East in that department. (it was done by my favorite production company as well, I still don't hold any punches when I see things to criticize)

I'm alright with people disagreeing, it's the spirit of the whole forum discussion business after all. But disrupting progressing and meaningful discussions like this requires something to back it up. "I don't think it deserves thinking" doesn't cut it. Let's leave it at that.

BetoJR
2009-08-27, 19:47
Let's. It's obviously poor form to discuss the (de)merits of one's favorite character, after all - I surely did not want to aggravate the fanbase. I'm very sorry for participating in the discussion, which is obviously only meant to praise Nina, after all - it's her thread, right?
And, also, sorry for not rising up to your standards - but I wouldn't really compare the characters presented on this show with the ones on Eden of The East, myself... also another subjective discussion. And one I'm loathe to participate in, myself.

Just one final point:
If you say you didn't see any development, I guess we didn't watch the same show. Not really a subjective matter since it's not the amount that's being discussed.
I'm very sorry, but that's ENTIRELY subjective. Completely open to one's interpretation of the events and the characters. Where do you come off saying that it's not the "amount" of character development that's being discussed? THAT'S the whole point! I didn't see any development! I, me, myself! Hello? Entirely subjective, you see... :heh:
I'm more than happy enough to leave it at that, but with the provision you acknowledge the whole subjective nature of the argument, that's all.

And, who knows, maybe we didn't watch the same show, after all. The one I did, had an interesting character named Nina, who was a noble and righteous defender and went on to be exactly that - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Some stories are driven by the characters, while some are driven by the plot. I felt this was more the later than the former. You didn't? More power to you. But don't tell me what I have to take out of a series, thank you very much. :D

Ultramarinus
2009-08-27, 22:18
You're welcome to discuss, as long as you present a case. That was what I have been criticizing all along, you didn't go farther than saying that you won't bother to think. Yet you still try to weigh down your opinion, disregarding what people have put forward. It's the base common courtesy in a discussion forum to actually bother to think and put a valid argument that goes beyond "you're wrong, I'm right".

It's not the place to discuss another anime's characters here indeed, not that I'd bother discussing such synthetic characters with no merits in its own forum but I'll leave it at that as well.

We have presented the events and the whole thread includes dozens of posts about how the character's view on situations changes. You need more than "I didn't see any" to counter those, not to mention the events of the anime itself.

I think the previous one played a bigger role in this show, now that's a subjective matter. Nobody's telling you to take anything out of a series, all I say is that diving into a discussion and then promoting your viewpoint with nothing more than "I think, I saw, I feel" doesn't provide you an argument to stand on, while other people are pointing out to real facts based on the topic itself.

Anyways, I think that's all to be said about this matter by me.

BetoJR
2009-08-28, 04:44
And what you're doing does not fall into the category of "I think, I saw, I feel"? :heh:
I think you're judging with two standards, here. The only thing you did was list the happenings of the show, in relation to the character. Not a single one of your examples - and I really do not care to go back to the very convoluted discussions between other posters, like you and TruKnight, for instance, as I was only responding to statements made in the last couple of pages - does hold any paradigm shifts for Nina, and I still hold to my impression that she was essentially the same character at the beginning and the end of the anime.

But, whatever, mine is clearly not a valid expression, when it's to disagree with you, and not see such a deep, complex character in a better light, because I just can't be bothered to look, right?

Tah-dah!

Ultramarinus
2009-08-28, 12:29
I 'point out' to what happened in the anime, which is the evidence of my argument itself. You're going against it with mere denial, as in all those posts, you have yet to say anything beyond your view with no basis to support it. If you really think that an opinion with no backing up should be regarded on the same grounds with concrete arguments, you should step back and reconsider what a discussion is all about.

BetoJR
2009-08-28, 18:30
That's okay, then. I do not really need your validation, to speak my mind in a public forum - as long as I do not behave in a bad manner, anyway.

But you make the assumption that you did provide "concrete arguments". To me, all you did was recite points from the anime, like you posted - points which, to me, do not denote evidence of character growth or complexity. Once again, we come to the subjectiveness of the experience: You cannot force someone to see the same thing you do, in regards to interpretative matters. I saw the same anime you did, and I took away from it something different than you. End of story.

justinstrife
2009-08-29, 23:49
That's okay, then. I do not really need your validation, to speak my mind in a public forum - as long as I do not behave in a bad manner, anyway.

But you make the assumption that you did provide "concrete arguments". To me, all you did was recite points from the anime, like you posted - points which, to me, do not denote evidence of character growth or complexity. Once again, we come to the subjectiveness of the experience: You cannot force someone to see the same thing you do, in regards to interpretative matters. I saw the same anime you did, and I took away from it something different than you. End of story.

Ultra gets mighty defensive when anyone criticizes his dear Nina-chan. :heh:

I tried watching the show again from the beginning, but her scenes just made me want to scrape my fingernails across a chalkboard. :uhoh: She was as annoying as I'd remembered her. And very deserving of my least liked character in the show.

Ultramarinus
2009-08-30, 01:06
He wasn't criticizing her in the first place, you could have avoided that fail by reading the messages. :rolleyes:

willyvereb
2009-08-30, 02:29
Well, your discussion/argument with BetoJR was somewhat a bit meaningless though.
@Justinfire: just try and read the light novels as I adviced. I guess she seems really different. She's forcefull, but always considers the good of others first.(well it's somewhat true to the anime version, but she's too controlled by her emotions there+respects honor above everything...not like the LN version).
But you can join in and state your opinions. I often enjoy talking somone with differing opinions. They nearly always have their own truthsthat I failed to realise, even if they're notso significant ones.

satomianzaki
2009-08-30, 06:42
Ultra gets mighty defensive when anyone criticizes his dear Nina-chan. :heh:



i guess if you're the knight of Sheryl from Macross Frontier then Ultra is the knight of Nina in Regios...

and i very much like both characters...

...

just passing by...hehe... :D