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monir
2009-03-07, 08:27
Welcome to the discussion thread for Regios, Episode 09.

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TrueKnight
2009-03-07, 08:45
Some points from ep 9 preview:
- 5th squad doing something.
- pic Felli blushing.
- Layfon and Nina talking about something.
- Leerin's in trouble.
- Ugly monster.
- Brief pic of Shinola.
- Savaris kicking ass.

ipernorris
2009-03-07, 09:20
Some points from ep 9 preview:
- 5th squad doing something.

Is it me or they are planning to assasinate Layfon?


- pic Felli blushing.

I'm looking forward to this scene! :D


- Layfon and Nina talking about something.

About Layfon's past most likely. Depending on Nina's reaction I can go from loving her to hate her... just like with the people of Grendan.


- Leerin's in trouble.
- Ugly monster.

Is it me or there are two "classes" of monsters? The filth monsters and another type?


- Brief pic of Shinola.

Let's call her queen-chan! :D


- Savaris kicking ass.
As expected from an heaven blade wielder! :cool:

zibi88
2009-03-07, 10:25
Some points from ep 9 preview:
- 5th squad doing something.
- pic Felli blushing.
- Layfon and Nina talking about something.
- Leerin's in trouble.
- Ugly monster.
- Brief pic of Shinola.
- Savaris kicking ass.

Well mostly 5th squad will reveal Layfons past of what he did..

Layfon talking with Feli about something.... have to wait for episode to learn about what ^^

Mostly Nina is angry (again) on Layfon for not telling her about his past and that he is/was HB.... maybe she kinda is angry at layfon for what he did (betraying city people, loseing pride, useing his skills for gaining money blabla.......) seriously if she will complain about what Layfon did I would say to her go and eat dirt... she is/was weak couldnt beat even single baby larva..... she was not in layfons shoes so sha has 0% idea what really happend ^^

Well Leerin will be mostly attacked by some monster (for unknown reason) but savaris and linent will protect her and defeat the mosnter..... queen will mostly again appear to molest Leerin... she will get angry (she should defend her pride...or use fist to protect it xD hit that old hag ^^ ) the same she will start wondering why was she attacked......(maybe she will get worried about Layfon.... since she got attacked then why not him)..... from 1picture it looked like in the attack Leerin's hmmm I would say foster father (some old dude with mustache...) got hurt or killed..... (maybe after this Leerin will decide to go to Zereni.... to layfons side...)


Well the episode will be aired in Japan in hmmm 40minutes or 1h) so for that time I will look at 2ch for pictures ^^ to ease the waiting time and curriousity ^^

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 10:30
Nina can get as angry as she wants. The truth is, Layfon's past isn't her business and she wasn't there.

We'll see how low she can go in my opinion as a character. She's already my least liked female in the story.

LordStrike
2009-03-07, 10:34
one question is possible to see regios in keyhole TV?

Renegade334
2009-03-07, 11:05
...Perhaps (don't see why not).

Otherwise, just check out the 2chan thread for ep9...which I've just deleted.

EDIT: yup, it is. Thanks to slick_rick for the info.
EDIT bis: since the raw is up for the taking, there's no longer any sense in keeping the 2chan link, so...*presses the delete button*

TrueKnight
2009-03-07, 11:31
Need summary....badly. I see Felli in the pics alone with Fon-fon damnit.... was the ep preview misleading lol.

zibi88
2009-03-07, 11:43
Well the Feli-LAyfon talk scene was at the end of the episode.... (looking from pictures)

Leerin has some power in her or rather spirit... some large fox like yellow creature that appeared behind Leerin.... I wonder what that creature is...

Anyway cant wait for the episode ^^ from pictures it was looking interesting (lots of stuff happening in Grendan this week... around Leerin)

Ehhh but honestly that pervered queen annoys me.... doesnt she have her own breasts..... damn it... she should know already that Leerin loves Layfon and that she has no interest in woman..... (her pervered 1sided lesbian scenes are not funny for me at all....)

edit:

well about this episode was good... some savarius fighting ^^ (it was short but it showed little of his skills ^^) episode is made like: first gorneo talks little about layfons past (and that he was fighting for money).... next we see Leerin talking with her foster-father..... than again nina talks with gorneo.... scene changes to grendan where savarius and linecnt found someone killed in street and are talking......scene changes to Leerins room, she is writing a letter to layfon but is interrupted by the queen.... Leerin is angry on her and avoided queens breast touching (queen than looks in leerins eyes and we see that fellow fox... than leerin like under hipnosis stands and says that she has to go to her foster-father since something is bad is happening).... than queen orders savarius to watch over her..... and here scene changes to Layfon's and Ninas talk.................EHH AS USUAL NINA IS COMPLAINING ABOUT LAYFONS BEHAVIOUR IN PAST (I simply cant stand her.... so bitchy character... she cant understand that she has her own life and layfon has his own with his own perception and trouble.... simply I would say now stupid bitch ^^ [my personal opinion so fans of her dont take it to yourselfs ^^]

Ok after that scene changes to Leerin getting to her foster-father... and well she was right a monster attacked father...... it turned out that the monster is the person that Layfon defeated in a match (he cut that opponets right arm) and now after so much hate blablabla he turned into monster and constantly is saying Layfon,Layfon,Layfon..... father protects Leerin but than he falls the monster is getting close to Leerin and then behind Leerin appears that yellow fox-animal hiting kinda with its bright light that monster.... Leerin doesnt know what happened and it seems that the animal is proitecting leerin [queen apperas and grabs leerin who lost consciousness]......... the scene changes to outside and on building roofs.... monster is catched by Lincents strings than Savarius gives a talk and kills it..........

Gorneo is wakeing up and sees that there is no cat girl in his room.... in the corridor he sees 3persons that turned out to be those fox-masked-ones (that attakced Zereni in past episode).... they did something that the cat girl attacked Gorneo (yet her movents made her forget where she is and she hit the roof with her head and lost consciousness)

here is a scene shower scene... than Feli walks to Layfon outside.... Layfon notices smell of shampoo...which made Feli kick Layfon.... than they said something and Feli hited with fist Layfons leg..... Layfon asked what is it.... Feli said "Leerin" than she blushed and got quiet XDXD (jelousy or rather curriosity who Leerin is ;] )


next episode rest of Layfons past... I thing Gorneo and cat girl trys to attack Layfon..... and hmmm it seems that Layfon noticed a very bright light like Lerin had when that animal appeared... kinda like another animal spirit... hmmmmm I think that Layfon might meet that town Gandelias spirit.... it look similar to the one of the Gandelia white flag (that deer).............

I think that in image thread there was a image with all chibi characters.... and I think that the spirit will turn out to be the yellow deer spirit.........hmmmmmm not that I think about it it makes sanse... since we saw that fox-masked guys that attacked Zerreni.... they might be people that steal City spirits.... so they are in Gandelia becouse they want to capture that spirit...... it would be nice if that spirit followed Layfon (or rather entered Layfon and becomed his quardian like Leerin has that foix ^^ )

Enternal
2009-03-07, 16:11
Nina can get angry all she wants even if we don't like it. However, she still have all the rights to be angry. Saying that she in a way shouldn't be angry because she is weaker than Layfon is just not right. It's like because Layfon is stronger than everyone, everyone does not have the right to be angry at what he does or whatnot.

Although I don't exactly like Nina that much, I still think she's a strong character as well but like any other character, she has her issues and that is she involves herself her issues with others too much. There is a good and bad in every character too so I don't think she is such a "low" character.

TrueKnight
2009-03-07, 16:21
Just watched the raw, and the previews are on spots. Savaris is a badass as expected but a complete sadist. And stupid Nina frickin' ruin the Felli x Fon-fon moment aggghh!

boss
2009-03-07, 16:24
Oh man, i scanned through the thread avoiding all the spoilers. The raw is out and it's calling out to me.

I better get my Regios fix before i sprout a leathery tail and froth in the mouth.

Enternal
2009-03-07, 16:24
Holy moly! The raws seems awesome! Like TrueKnight said, Nina ruined the Felli x Fon-fon moment but it's alright because to me it also means more understanding between them could happen.

Anyway, more Leerin!!! And.... it's seems like she does have some kind of power. It's the beast that the queen initially saw in her eyes too and it... somewhat look like Keroberos from CCS but still it looked awesome glowing like that and stuff. Oh, the queen sure likes to grope people doesn't she. Also, it does seem like that monster had a grudge against Layfon. At least it got beat up by Savaris. Awesome!

zibi88
2009-03-07, 16:26
What I mean is that Nina digs everything up that is not herself related then she is imposeing her own way of thinking about good and bad... while not knowing the whole truth...... I could agree if she was there and saw with her own eyes.... yet she belives in everything people say (even if its from newspaper information) while thinking that her way of good and bad is right (yet she was scared of that monster from previous episodes.... that layfon had to live in that kind of world)

HB are humans too and most people are forgeting that becouse their power is kinda not human.... and like all humans they have their own lifes.... wishes... dreams.... desires.... and so people keep thinking that they are just tool to keep their butts safe....

I wounder how people would react if they learned that their queen is skipping work and is fooling around.... like she is lieing to other people with makeing Canalice take her place while queen is playing around ^^ Would they be happy that their queen is not serious about her work....

and from Gorneos point of view is just like all other peoples.... that HB must fight only monsters and keep people safe and that is their whole life.... (kinda sad....not to be allowed to do what you want to do...)

Well Nina kinda forgets that if Layfon didnt screwd up and didnt showed up on Zerenii.... than she and whole city would die with that larva attack or later that mature form attack..... so she could give him a break already..... ^^

I wonder when Leerin will decide to come to Zerenii to Layfon... (maybe she will want to hide from attacks... since there might be more people who fought agains Layfon and lost the same they have a huge grudge against him and so they might target Leerin again..... if she goes to Zerenii than she will be close to person she loves.... and be safer since people thre dont know about what Layfon did ^^ )

time will show ;]

Enternal
2009-03-07, 16:34
What I mean is that Nina digs everything up that is not herself related then she is imposeing her own way of thinking about good and bad... while not knowing the whole truth...... I could agree if she was there and saw with her own eyes.... yet she belives in everything people say (even if its from newspaper information) while thinking that her way of good and bad is right (yet she was scared of that monster from previous episodes.... that layfon had to live in that kind of world)

HB are humans too and most people are forgeting that becouse their power is kinda not human.... and like all humans they have their own lifes.... wishes... dreams.... desires.... and so people keep thinking that they are just tool to keep their butts safe....

I wounder how people would react if they learned that their queen is skipping work and is fooling around.... like she is lieing to other people with makeing Canalice take her place while queen is playing around ^^ Would they be happy that their queen is not serious about her work....

and from Gorneos point of view is just like all other peoples.... that HB must fight only monsters and keep people safe and that is their whole life.... (kinda sad....not to be allowed to do what you want to do...)

Well Nina kinda forgets that if Layfon didnt screwd up and didnt showed up on Zerenii.... than she and whole city would die with that larva attack or later that mature form attack..... so she could give him a break already..... ^^

I wonder when Leerin will decide to come to Zerenii to Layfon... (maybe she will want to hide from attacks... since there might be more people who fought agains Layfon and lost the same they have a huge grudge against him and so they might target Leerin again..... if she goes to Zerenii than she will be close to person she loves.... and be safer since people thre dont know about what Layfon did ^^ )

time will show ;]

It's interesting in a way that both Nina and Gorneo is mad at Layfon but for different reasons. Nina is mad at Layfon mostly reasons regarding pride and stuff relating with her own ideals. Gorneo is mad about pride too but more about pride being a HB who only fights to protect the people. Otherwise, I agree with what you are saying but they both still have the rights to be mad.

About the queen, perhaps she's on vacation or is actually in search of something? It still is funny see how she is currently not working and just wondering around. Perhaps her ulterior motives as to why she left all the work to Canalice. But dang it sure sucks that some people are targeting Leerin because of her relationship with Layfon. That just sucks.

cynicalicious
2009-03-07, 16:37
lol. I told you that the previews were often misleading. Good ep.

Yeah, if you're a Felli x Fon-Fon shipper, you got led on for nothing. lol.

So I take it that the malformed beast thing that was attacking Leerin, her & Fon-Fon's foster father (which makes them siblings of a sort, I suppose), was the guy whom Fon-Fon defeated... the guy who wound up spilling the beans because Fon-Fon didn't kill him, and instead lopped his arm off. How he managed to turn himself into some kind of monster thing is beyond me. I didn't listen too closely to the Japanese in that bit.

And what the wolf masked guys we saw from episode 3 were doing is another mystery, I guess.

Of course Nina doesn't get why Fon-Fon did what he did. She grew up lacking nothing. She never had to eat a wish sandwich, or have stone soup. She's very self-satisfied in her "bugeisha" approach to everything. Even though she ran away from it all, she ran from comfort to a school like Zuellni, where while she wasn't exactly on Easy St., she wasn't suffering, either.

Any martial code you follow is only useful if it keeps you and the people you care about alive. In the case of Gandowelia, it didn't work so hot, did it? That's Fon-Fon's main point, and that's why all the talk of bugeisha this and bugeisha that rings hollow to him.

Either way, Nina's pissed, and that'll mean more yelling next episode.

I was kind of wondering why the Queen let the monster dude attack-- why she wanted Leerin to release her spirit puppy. I wasn't too sure what the deal was with that. She obviously has a reason for it.

TrueKnight
2009-03-07, 16:38
Review at seiha is up,

http://blog.seiha.org/2009/03/chrome-shelled-regios-09-you-smell-nice-girly/

lol. I told you that the previews were often misleading. Good ep.

I'm crying manly tears now.

EDIT: lol seems like you couldn't hotlink seiha's pic.... Anyway the Felli x Fon-fon moment is there at the site..

Enternal
2009-03-07, 16:47
It doesn't matter that the Felli x Fon-fon shippers got led no where because they get to at least see Fellil blush right? Right? That part was still great though because not only have you seen her smile, now she blushes too!

CybEssen
2009-03-07, 16:53
Lots of Leerin in this episode. She's writing yet another letter. She's either really really faithful to Layfon or it's something else. 75% of her lines this episode has the word Layfon in it.

Orphanage gets attacked by a former tournament member who Layfon defeated in the past, probably for the Heaven's Blade Reciever title.

There's a scene of Leerin & the children from the orphanage who can't "bear to look" when Layfon is fighting during said tournament. You can see the "shocked" expression on Leerin's face.

Big ugly sore loser guy from the tournament is in (probably) cahoots with Gorneo or they are related somehow.

Felli gets the monkey loli again.

Truth comes out, Nina gets all pouty. :rolleyes:

Caretaker of the Orphanage has respectable kei and battle prowess.

Leerin's power awakens.

The Queen has some kind of unhealthy boob fetish as she grabs everything.

Those 3d lizard things that the red-haired guy defeated in a previous episode appear again. It's kind of vague, but they probably have some kind of jedi mind control power as the monkey loli attacks Gorneo.

Some Nina butt in the shower. (Again)

Layfon and Felli meet under the moonlight. Damn she's good looking in black. Felli briefly asks about Leerin. Felli blushes, oh boy. Layfon holds out his hand to pick her up but is interrupted by Nina. CUE NEXT EPISODE MUSIC and badass "You is going down, boi" Nina stare.

TrueKnight
2009-03-07, 16:59
Lol dude it's supposed to be ep 9 spoiler and not 8, :P

Manji Midou
2009-03-07, 16:59
lol. I told you that the previews were often misleading. Good ep.

Yeah, if you're a Felli x Fon-Fon shipper, you got led on for nothing.
bwahaha, awesome stuff, must watch raw

CybEssen
2009-03-07, 17:01
Lol dude it's supposed to be ep 9 spoiler and not 8, :P

Woops, sorry, lol.

TrueKnight
2009-03-07, 17:01
Well if I need to be frank and Felli fanboyism aside, any Leerin fans will be happy with this ep.

ani_d
2009-03-07, 17:11
Good good episode:heh:

I think a lot of people are being hard on Nina here. Layfon is her Kohai. They're supposed to be a team. There should be an open communication. If one of them did something unfavorable in the past and it's been haunting them, it's only right that they confront the issue not avoid it. ^^ It's another thing if Layfon regretted what he did and is now at the "right path", but he isn't. In fact, he's lacking insight. It's easier to overlook things for the sake of "smoothing" things out than having the gall to say "you did something wrong". Besides, Nina is the kind of person who takes responsibility for her team. Straightening Layfon is her way of showing she cares. More talk definitely is appropriate.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Platoon 17 is going to sort this issue out eventually, and this is only a needed drama. At first I thought Nina would just accept Layfon for what he did, but I'm glad she's not tolerating him lol I don't blame Layfon for what he did because he was desperate but it still doesn't absolve him. Layfon needs to learn from her. ;)

On Leerin's side, I'm totally loving Savaris.:p I guess I need more subtitles for this because it seems like the people that Layfon defeated in the past have turned into monsters and are after him. How did they become like that? ^^

margafred
2009-03-07, 17:20
I have nothing to comment here...

Just one..


I'M SO GLAD I'M ONE OF THOSE FON-FON X FELLI SHIPPER...

Felli came to Layfon with those frills..and even more she didn't even wear her bra,and her breast looks well-developed for a loli :love: I wonder what brand of shampoo that Felli used which attracted Layfon's tenken level smell detector.

And bravo for the blush..another soon-to-be tsundere i must say.. :love:

Now if only some flying sword could stab Nina from behind...for ruining the romantic scene :frustrated:


Hail the frills :bow:
Hail the frills :bow:
Hail the frills :bow:
Hail the frills :bow:
Hail the frills :bow:
Hail the frills :bow:

boss
2009-03-07, 17:31
Ah Nina, if i was a slimy eel i'd slither all over you. http://emoticons4u.com/cool/cool30.gif

ahem!



http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a112/lantaka/regios9_90.jpg

Looks like our boy Layfon is gonna choke a bitch.

Seems like there gonna be a bit of action next ep. I loled at those eyepieces... It's OVER 9000! *crush* =D

I don't have pics but from the preview they show Layfon blasting out some blue kei. It could be a barrier but in motion it looked like some kind of sonic blast from his mouth. Hmmm... it could be another of his arsenal of borrowed techs.

Manji Midou
2009-03-07, 17:36
romantic scene? where? after the kick? the punch?
clearly the feelings here are one sided...last time l checked both parties need to be interested.
lulz, romantic scene my ass. :heh:

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 17:48
I have to laugh at all the people defending Nina. She's a self-centered bitch who has absolutely NO clue or understanding about Layfon or the life he's had. She has a right to be mad at him? She's the one who dragged him into her Platoon when he wanted NOTHING to do with fighting.

Until she has experienced the hardships and betrayals that he has, she needs to just STFU, listen, and learn. :rolleyes:

Oh and I can so ship Felli x Fon-Fon. :p

ThoHell
2009-03-07, 17:48
The Queen is a super perverted lesbian beast that doesn't stop blowing my mind.

Over all good episode but Gorneo and Nina were very annoying this episode.

Gorneo is like an anal person with an inferiority complex. Cat-monkey girl is just a tag along.

Nina's preaching the whole damn episode was annoying. Over dramatizing is just...ugh! A bunch of little kids play war games now trying to being grown ups. Everyone has their own secretes, be it lovers, teammates, friends, etc. Lets not try to get all idealistic and be saying they should have open communication or reveal their inner most secretes just because their teammates, it doesn't work like that. When he's open and ready to tell, then he will.

I like the dark serious Fon-fon, much more to my liking. Evil good guys for the win!

Felli is jealous of Leerin.. interesting. She's showing emotions now.


So when is Leerin and Fon-fon going to reunite? This 2 separate scenarios/storyline here is kind of annoying.

Next episode looks like it going to be action packed and we get to see Fon-fon in some what a serious mode. CAN'T AWAIT! About time we get to see a little more of how awesome Fon-fon is.


I have to laugh at all the people defending Nina. She's a self-centered bitch who has absolutely NO clue or understanding about Layfon or the life he's had. She has a right to be mad at him? She's the one who dragged him into her Platoon when he wanted NOTHING to do with fighting.

Until she has experienced the hardships and betrayals that he has, she needs to just STFU, listen, and learn. :rolleyes:

Oh and I can so ship Felli x Fon-Fon. :p

You are sooo right. The person who in actuality should be angry and doing something beating is Fon-fon. Real people don't just take what he has been receiving (referring to what everyone at the academy has been throwing on him) and going on all happy like that, his character has very well control over his emotions. How many people do you know that would just take it and not blow up? I did like Nina, but she can go jump off a cliff for all I care, actually I wish they threw off most of the damn cast! Seriously people, here's a cookie so now get over it and stop being so dramatic.

zibi88
2009-03-07, 18:14
Yeah Nina is kinda annoying now.... she forcefully wants to dig in peoples pasts for her own fun then she complains aobut how wrong Layfon did.....blabla....

Seriously this is wrong.... Layfon wanted to start a new life.... she dragged him.....wanted to use his power to gain popularity that squad17 is strong.... than she is bitich about his power that is casting a shadow on her own skills (and he gains the fame...) and now she digs in past that Layfon wanted to put behind and start anew......

On Layfon's place I would ignore her and for her bitching thrown that squad17 badge and say goodbye while haveing her deep in ass.....

Layfon doesnt want to talk about his past yet she has to dig and dig to pull the informations out becouse she wants it......and after that she blames him everything blabla....

Seriously Layfon was killing monsters and was fighting in sight of death on young age.... while Nina was chaseing stupid fairies.........with no worries about food,home and stuff...... and she has the rights to bitch about Layfon who had way harder life than her.... (hope that next time he will leavee Nina to be eaten by a weak baby larva.... she couldnt even defeat 1bug so who gave her rights to yell at Layfons past mistake, god everyone makes mistakes... no one is perfect so why Layfon couldnt have his mistakes too.......)

The only people that understand Layfon are Leerin and maybe little Feli (hmm maybe other HB doesnt have any grudge against Layfon maybe they know what he has done that)..... Nina is self-centered with no real-life experiance.....she thinks she eated brain of whole world and what she says is the LAW of TRUTH and RIGHTS....and everything out of that book is bad and unforgiving

I wonder what would she do if someone blackmailed her like If you wont give up the match we will kill that city fairy Zerenii..... the same he pride as fighter doesnt want to give up (sine she would lose honour) so its a mental trap and you have to sacrafiec sometihng...

Archmagination2002
2009-03-07, 18:21
Good good episode:heh:

I think a lot of people are being hard on Nina here. Layfon is her Kohai. They're supposed to be a team. There should be an open communication. If one of them did something unfavorable in the past and it's been haunting them, it's only right that they confront the issue not avoid it. ^^ It's another thing if Layfon regretted what he did and is now at the "right path", but he isn't. In fact, he's lacking insight. It's easier to overlook things for the sake of "smoothing" things out than having the gall to say "you did something wrong". Besides, Nina is the kind of person who takes responsibility for her team. Straightening Layfon is her way of showing she cares. More talk definitely is appropriate.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Platoon 17 is going to sort this issue out eventually, and this is only a needed drama. At first I thought Nina would just accept Layfon for what he did, but I'm glad she's not tolerating him lol I don't blame Layfon for what he did because he was desperate but it still doesn't absolve him. Layfon needs to learn from her. ;)

On Leerin's side, I'm totally loving Savaris.:p I guess I need more subtitles for this because it seems like the people that Layfon defeated in the past have turned into monsters and are after him. How did they become like that? ^^

WTF!! Straightening Layfon out? There is NOTHING to straighten out!!

Westlo
2009-03-07, 18:22
I think a lot of people are being hard on Nina here. Layfon is her Kohai. They're supposed to be a team. There should be an open communication. If one of them did something unfavorable in the past and it's been haunting them, it's only right that they confront the issue not avoid it.

QFT, the hate is starting to get to the point where if Layfon revealed he was a child rapist in the past and Nina took offense people here would still whine about that :rolleyes:

Fevvers
2009-03-07, 18:33
Good good episode:heh:

I think a lot of people are being hard on Nina here. Layfon is her Kohai. They're supposed to be a team. There should be an open communication. If one of them did something unfavorable in the past and it's been haunting them, it's only right that they confront the issue not avoid it. ^^ It's another thing if Layfon regretted what he did and is now at the "right path", but he isn't. In fact, he's lacking insight. It's easier to overlook things for the sake of "smoothing" things out than having the gall to say "you did something wrong". Besides, Nina is the kind of person who takes responsibility for her team. Straightening Layfon is her way of showing she cares. More talk definitely is appropriate.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Platoon 17 is going to sort this issue out eventually, and this is only a needed drama. At first I thought Nina would just accept Layfon for what he did, but I'm glad she's not tolerating him lol I don't blame Layfon for what he did because he was desperate but it still doesn't absolve him. Layfon needs to learn from her. ;)

On Leerin's side, I'm totally loving Savaris.:p I guess I need more subtitles for this because it seems like the people that Layfon defeated in the past have turned into monsters and are after him. How did they become like that? ^^

Exactly. Although I would also point out that Nina's self-righteousness (nothing malicious of nature I feel), not just her sense of responsibility for the team, is making her lash out like that. Not that that's a bad thing, character development-wise, especially since that specific flaw of hers has been treated as such by Layfon and Sharnid.

Funny though by way of some people acting here, you'd think Nina ate their babies or something. :rolleyes:

Westlo
2009-03-07, 18:37
Funny though by way of some people acting here, you'd think Nina ate their babies or something. :rolleyes:

Just wait until Nina gets to your babies, you'll be singing a different tune :frustrated:

Slick_rick
2009-03-07, 18:38
Yeah Nina is kinda annoying now.... she forcefully wants to dig in peoples pasts for her own fun then she complains aobut how wrong Layfon did.....blabla....

Well first she didn't dig into his past. Gorneo let her know. She couldn't just ignore this information once brought forward.

Seriously this is wrong.... Layfon wanted to start a new life.... she dragged him.....wanted to use his power to gain popularity that squad17 is strong.... than she is bitich about his power that is casting a shadow on her own skills (and he gains the fame...) and now she digs in past that Layfon wanted to put behind and start anew......

Well she didn't actually drag him into. The student president did. She just asked that he hand him over to her platoon. Also I believe it more that Layfon was running away from his old life instead of trying to find a new one. I don't think she ever bitch about his power casting a shadow. First she was upset that he hid it, then she was a bit jealous once she realized how truly powerful he was. These were all normal you'd expect of someone in her position and like I said she never dug into his past.



Layfon doesnt want to talk about his past yet she has to dig and dig to pull the informations out becouse she wants it......and after that she blames him everything blabla....

She talks with him... I think that a healthy thing. She wants to try to find out the truth. I think avoiding the question and it building up animosity between them would be worse.



Seriously Layfon was killing monsters and was fighting in sight of death on young age.... while Nina was chaseing stupid fairies.........with no worries about food,home and stuff...... and she has the rights to bitch about Layfon who had way harder life than her.... (hope that next time he will leavee Nina to be eaten by a weak baby larva.... she couldnt even defeat 1bug so who gave her rights to yell at Layfons past mistake, god everyone makes mistakes... no one is perfect so why Layfon couldnt have his mistakes too.......)

Nina isn't perfect either though you seem to be harder on her imperfections than Layfon.

I hope this forum doesn't turn into a unnecessary bashing one like certain ones on Animesuki I avoid.

Enternal
2009-03-07, 18:40
The Nina hate here is ridiculous. Yes, she's an annoying self-righteousness person but that's great for character development. By having her there and Layfon, they could understand each other more. As you can see since the beginning of the series, she started to understand and accepted Layfon more. She even got over her inferior complex. It shows that she is growing as a character and even Layfon can see that. That might be a reason why he also looks up to her as she may be stubborn but she still can think and thus she grows.

All the hate here shows that you guys still have treated her the same way she was from the beginning. You got to also see how she grows as a character. As the story goes on, she will continue to grow and understand how Layfon is and why he is that way and she will become more accepting like how she accepts he is stronger than her and how she started to think what she could do to help the team when they were facing the dragon beast.

Open up your mind and heart and see how she progresses than just thinking of how she is at the very beginning. Also, she did not drag Layfon into her platoon. The principal did and then she played along because she did not want him to get exiled so she thought the only way to prevent that is to have him in her platoon. Rewatch the 1st episode and you see that she was like "Why did you not tell me sooner!" to Harley when he said that Layfon probably will get kicked out of the regios but she did not know that the principal knows who Layfon is and won't kick him out anytime soon. Also, her wanting to talk to Layfon is an excellent way of solving issues as she wants to talk and listen and learn about her comrades. She is someone who is willing to face the problems that they have with each other right away rather than run away.

Anyway, Felli wants to know about Leerin and is blushing? Hmmm... jealous? That's awesome.

Manji Midou
2009-03-07, 18:46
funny how the mind of some people work

nina gets angry at layfon therefore she is a bitch
abusive useless loli continues on hitting layfon when she becomes a bit mad at him and people go like it's all "KAWAI DESU"
double standards FTL... :heh:

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 18:46
The Principle didn't drag Layfon into Platoon 17. She did. And when Layfon tried to tell her he didn't want to be in there, she disregarded his opinion. She forced that particular situation on him from the get-go.

She didn't bring him into Platoon 17 for his own interests, she did it for hers. There's a big difference.

funny how the mind of some people work

nina gets angry at layfon therefore she is a bitch
abusive useless loli continues on hitting layfon when she becomes a bit mad at him and it's all "KAWAI DESU"
double standards FTL... :heh:

I'm in it for the blushing. From a character standpoint, I think Leerin is the best matched for Layfon.

Slick_rick
2009-03-07, 18:53
The Principle didn't drag Layfon into Platoon 17. She did. And when Layfon tried to tell her he didn't want to be in there, she disregarded his opinion. She forced that particular situation on him from the get-go.

She didn't bring him into Platoon 17 for his own interests, she did it for hers. There's a big difference.



I'm in it for the blushing. From a character standpoint, I think Leerin is the best matched for Layfon.

She offered to take him into the Platoon to student council president. He was the one who transferred Layfon to the military arts division. He was going to a platoon no matter what. Also Layfon didn't express that he didn't want to do it to her until the next day. And then he only tried to get out of it by saying he had a night time job so he doubted if he could do it.

Also of course it was for her own interest mostly. She wanted to keep her platoon alive. How heartless of her...

Enternal
2009-03-07, 18:55
The Principle didn't drag Layfon into Platoon 17. She did. And when Layfon tried to tell her he didn't want to be in there, she disregarded his opinion. She forced that particular situation on him from the get-go.

She didn't bring him into Platoon 17 for his own interests, she did it for hers. There's a big difference.



I'm in it for the blushing. From a character standpoint, I think Leerin is the best matched for Layfon.

I recommend that you should rewatch the first episode. Why did she dragged him into her platoon? She has two reasons. One was to save Layfon from getting kicked out of Regios because she thought he was going to get kicked out of Regios by the principle due to what Harley said. Two, she needed someone else in her platoon to fill up the gaps. Yes, she did it for her interests but it was secondary to saving Layfon who saved a student and also stopped a fight and it would not be nice to kicked him out of Regios because he was a general student. Like slick_rick said, he was going to go into a platoon either way since the principle already knows who he is and plans on using him.

Anyway, Leerin Leerin! So happy to see more of her. I'm definitely for Leerin X Layfon. Now I better hide from TrueKnight and a couple others. *runs

ThoHell
2009-03-07, 18:57
Man, lots of you sound like a punch of romantic idealistic touchy sap heads.

Nina wasn't annoying at first, I liked her at first. But the more I watch her the more annoying she became.

There has got to be some truth behind the Nina hate if such a large populace has the same impression and image of her.

She's like a high school drama queen. People move on and grow, but their are those people out their who wish to just drag people down or back for superiority satisfaction. They wish to be dramatic or just want to preach/council. M.J was a great B.Ball leader, but he never found the need or justify the act to know the secretes of his team mate. If you can't respect a person's privacy, then there's something wrong with you. Fon-fon is like most people, when they're ready and comfortable, they'll open themselves up. Hey, the government is your leader, do you want them to dig up all your faults and bring them into the open and talk to you about it?

I recommend that you should rewatch the first episode. Why did she dragged him into her platoon? She has two reasons. One was to save Layfon from getting kicked out of Regios because she thought he was going to get kicked out of Regios by the principle due to what Harley said. Two, she needed someone else in her platoon. Yes, she did it for her interests but it was secondary to saving Layfon who saved a student and also stopped a fight and it would not be nice to kicked him out of Regios because he was a general student. Like slick_rick said, he was going to go into a platoon either way since the principle already knows who he is and plans on using him.


Either you, Harley, or the script writer needs to use their heads more. People don't get expelled for such a thing. WTF would he get expelled for? NOTHING? Or maybe because he saved a girl? If anyone were to get expelled it would be those 2 students who were fighting or the damn student body president for setting up such a dangerous scenario. Who would be let off the hook like that so easily for setting up such a scenario?

Westlo
2009-03-07, 19:03
There has got to be some truth behind the Nina hate if such a large populace has the same impression and image of her.

She's just behind Felli in the last official Regios poll (Layfon 27.67, Felli 18.08% and Nina 17.21%), so she's clearly not this demon people are making her out to be. And Jordan dissed the shit out of his teammates and even hit Bill in practice (closed curtain practices introduced shortly after lol), read The Jordan Rules... what an angel compared to Nina :rolleyes:

Enternal
2009-03-07, 19:05
Man, lots of you sound like a punch of romantic idealistic touchy sap heads.

Nina wasn't annoying at first, I liked her at first. But the more I watch her the more annoying she became.

There has got to be some truth behind the Nina hate if such a large populace has the same impression and image of her.

She's like a high school drama queen. People move on and grow, but their are those people out their who wish to just drag people down or back for superiority satisfaction. They wish to be dramatic or just want to preach/council. M.J was a great B.Ball leader, but he never found the need or justify the act to know the secretes of his team mate. If you can't respect a person's privacy, then there's something wrong with you. Fon-fon is like most people, when they're ready and comfortable, they'll open themselves up. Hey, the government is your leader, do you want them to dig up all your faults and bring them into the open and talk to you about it?

No, some of us are a bit more open to what's going on rather than just hating and hating a character even when there is development in the chracter.

There has got to be some truth behind the Nina hate if such a large populace has the same impression and image of her.

Doesn't mean that it's right like the case of the populace of Grenden. Almost all of them have the same image of Layfon but we don't agree because we understand Layfon. Same thing applies here.

Slick_rick
2009-03-07, 19:10
Man, lots of you sound like a punch of romantic idealistic touchy sap heads.

Nina wasn't annoying at first, I liked her at first. But the more I watch her the more annoying she became.

There has got to be some truth behind the Nina hate if such a large populace has the same impression and image of her.

She's like a high school drama queen. People move on and grow, but their are those people out their who wish to just drag people down or back for superiority satisfaction. They wish to be dramatic or just want to preach/council. M.J was a great B.Ball leader, but he never found the need or justify the act to know the secretes of his team mate. If you can't respect a person's privacy, then there's something wrong with you. Fon-fon is like most people, when they're ready and comfortable, they'll open themselves up. Hey, the government is your leader, do you want them to dig up all your faults and bring them into the open and talk to you about it?

A lot people hate on Nina because of the fact her flaws are things we have experienced and can understand. Jealousy and a bit of naivete. These are things we can understand. You can't understand Layfon flaws. Protecting an entire city with your superpowers and then somehow get kicked by them once you fail to meet there expectations. So people are harder on her than Layfon. I doubt most have been in a situation similar to Felli either. She fulls of flaws too. Though most can't really relate to them.

ThoHell
2009-03-07, 19:14
She's just behind Felli in the last official Regios poll (Layfon 27.67, Felli 18.08% and Nina 17.21%), so she's clearly not this demon people are making her out to be. And Jordan dissed the shit out of his teammates and even hit Bill in practice (closed curtain practices introduced shortly after lol), read The Jordan Rules... what an angel compared to Nina :rolleyes:

Hey, he didn't go about needing to know their secretes. Even leaders get angry when their teammates are half-assing or not using their heads when everyone else is working hard to improve.

No, some of us are a bit more open to what's going on rather than just hating and hating a character even when there is development in the chracter.



Doesn't mean that it's right like the case of the populace of Grenden. Almost all of them have the same image of Layfon but we don't agree because we understand Layfon. Same thing applies here.

You think I'm just a Nina hater and a damn Fon-fon fan? HA! I'm completely open minded. I've been hating Fon-fon since the damn begging, and he just started to look good to me in this episode. Most of the characters annoy me. I'm just trying to watch for enjoyment, not to be a fan of anyone.

A lot people hate on Nina because of the fact her flaws are things we have experienced and can understand. Jealousy and a bit of naivete. These are things we can understand. You can't understand Layfon flaws. Protecting an entire city with your superpowers and then somehow get kicked by them once you fail to meet there expectations. So people are harder on her than Layfon. I doubt most have been in a situation similar to Felli either. She fulls of flaws too. Though most can't really relate to them.

Yeah true, you can't ever make someone happy without making someone else not. It's like those damn 3rd world countries asking for help and rejoice once you come to help but then hate on you after you've helped them.

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 19:14
A lot people hate on Nina because of the fact her flaws are things we have experienced and can understand. Jealousy and a bit of naivete. These are things we can understand. You can't understand Layfon flaws. Protecting an entire city with your superpowers and then somehow get kicked by them once you fail to meet there expectations. So people are harder on her than Layfon. I doubt most have been in a situation similar to Felli either. She fulls of flaws too. Though most can't really relate to them.

Sorry I've never experienced or understood Nina's character type or her flaws. Jealousy? Naivete? Give me a break. :heh:

She's a spoiled little brat who needs to be bent over Layfon's knee and spanked, not in the naughty way.

Slick_rick
2009-03-07, 19:18
Sorry I've never experienced or understood Nina's character type or her flaws. Jealousy? Naivete? Give me a break. :heh:

She's a spoiled little brat who needs to be bent over Layfon's knee and spanked, not in the naughty way.

Yea, you've gone through you whole life without once being jealous or being naive about something. Sure I believe you... honestly....

Seriously though do you think anyone believes that mendacity for half a second?:rolleyes:

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 19:19
Yea, you've gone through you whole life without once being jealous or being naive about something. Sure I believe you... honestly....

Seriously though do you think anyone believes that mendacity for half a second?:rolleyes:

Must be tough living in your world. :heh:

What have I ever needed to be jealous about? I fight for what I want. If I don't get it, I fight harder or move onto something else.

Since you obviously know me better than I know myself, why don't you tell me and everyone else, what I've been jealous about in my life, Mr. Slick Rick?

Slick_rick
2009-03-07, 19:23
Must be tough living in your world. :heh:

What have I ever needed to be jealous about? I fight for what I want. If I don't get it, I fight harder or move onto something else.

Since you obviously know me better than I know myself, why don't you tell me and everyone else, what I've been jealous about in my life, Mr. Slick Rick?

:stupid: Yea, go on telling yourself that. One day it might actually be true. I know enough about people to see when someone is throwing BS at me.

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 19:24
:stupid: Yea, go on telling yourself that. One day it might actually be true. I know enough about people to see when someone is throwing BS at me.

Says the person who doesn't fill out their profile with where they're from or how old they are. :heh: Sure you're not still in grade school?

The only person with BS here is you my friend. :)

ThoHell
2009-03-07, 19:25
Must be tough living in your world. :heh:

What have I ever needed to be jealous about? I fight for what I want. If I don't get it, I fight harder or move onto something else.

Since you obviously know me better than I know myself, why don't you tell me and everyone else, what I've been jealous about in my life, Mr. Slick Rick?

I actually know some people like you. Instead of experiencing of dealing with jealousy they express it in other ways, like using it as a fuel source for motivation. Being jealous doesn't help the slightest bit.

Slick_rick
2009-03-07, 19:29
Says the person who doesn't fill out their profile with where they're from or how old they are. :heh: Sure you're not still in grade school?

What the hell does my age have to do with anything? If I'm 15 or 50 does it really make a difference? No, my age is my business I don't need to give it out to random people. I'm not a child but I don't like to give out personal data about myself unless I chose to. Nice try though. You seem pretty childish for a 30 yr old.

Archmagination2002
2009-03-07, 19:30
Okay the problem is Nina is making judgments about Layfon, she is self-righteously lecturing him and its just wrong. Layfon had a skill and he pushed himself to death to hone it. It wasn't for honor or anything like that.. it was for one simple reason, survival for himself and for his family(orphanage).

Unfortunately his skill was something that Grendan's population thought they had a right to for free and when they found out he wasn't giving it away for free they freaked out.

BTW Westlo what anime/manga is that sig from.. it seems familiar but I can't place it.

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 19:31
I actually know some people like you. Instead of experiencing of dealing with jealousy they express it in other ways, like using it as a fuel source for motivation. Being jealous doesn't help the slightest bit.

If I want something, I go get it. If I don't get it, I obviously didn't really want it bad enough. :heh:

I'd love to be fluent in Japanese. It's the one language other than English I've wanted to learn. However, I'm both bad at languages, and a lazy ass who hates to study, so I haven't taught myself beyond the basics. Am I jealous of others who know it? No, because they wanted it, and learned it through hard work. I have yet to earn it.

I have a friend with a brand new ZR1 Corvette. The car is fast, comfortable, and looks damn good. Would I like to have one? Sure. But the sacrifices for it are greater than I care to make. I don't like to work that hard for most things. And I don't begrudge others who have them, or are willing to make the sacrifices. I applaud them, and am happy for them.

My life has had it's ups and downs, but I always survive through the roller coaster ride. I don't envy anyone else. I'm just happy to be alive and experience the things I do experience. Life's too short to be petty over someone else's talents, abilities, experiences, etc. I am my own person. I can be anything, and can do anything I want if I'm willing to work for it. :p

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 19:33
What the hell does my age have to do with anything? If I'm 15 or 50 does it really make a difference? No, my age is my business I don't need to give it out to random people. I'm not a child but I don't like to give out personal data about myself unless I chose to. Nice try though. You seem pretty childish for a 30 yr old.

My point is this. I have nothing to hide. I am willing to show my background, so that other people might understand where I'm coming from, or at least can relate to me or not. I'm an open book. What you see is what you get. I don't pussy foot around, or bow down to ANYONE. I state my mind, and what I say, I truly do believe it 100%. I don't say anything out of context, without telling you otherwise. I am VERY blunt. If you don't like it, there's an ignore button you can hide behind.

You started the personal attacks Rick. If you can't hang with others, don't play with them.

I suggest we drop this discussion, or take it to PM as we are SERIOUSLY off-topic.

Westlo
2009-03-07, 19:34
One of the things I don't get the massive hate for Nina (on these forums anyway) is that while she has a problem with a lot of things she doesn't keep it bottled up, she talks about and she and Layfon develop from it.

I mean we still have people here who are pissed that Nina supposedly dragged Layfon back into battle.. even though Layfon realized in episode 5 that there is things that needs to be protected and his attitude he arrived with is not good enough.

BTW Westlo what anime/manga is that sig from.. it seems familiar but I can't place it.

It's Macross Frontier, check it out if you haven't.

ThoHell
2009-03-07, 19:36
Okay the problem is Nina is making judgments about Layfon, she is self-righteously lecturing him and its just wrong. Layfon had a skill and he pushed himself to death to hone it. It wasn't for honor or anything like that.. it was for one simple reason, survival for himself and for his family(orphanage).

Unfortunately his skill was something that Grendan's population thought they had a right to for free and when they found out he wasn't giving it away for free they freaked out.

BTW Westlo what anime/manga is that sig from.. it seems familiar but I can't place it.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS! It's like professional athletes. Indeed they love what they do, or else they wouldn't be good at it. But they also do it for the money and popularity. Actually, it applies to a lot of things. Mostly everything in life....... oh dang we're in the real world now, not the anime world anymore.

Slick_rick
2009-03-07, 19:39
My point is this. I have nothing to hide. I am willing to show my background, so that other people might understand where I'm coming from, or at least can relate to me or not. I'm an open book. What you see is what you get. I don't pussy foot around, or bow down to ANYONE. I state my mind, and what I say, I truly do believe it 100%. I don't say anything out of context, without telling you otherwise. I am VERY blunt. If you don't like it, there's an ignore button you can hide behind.

You started the personal attacks Rick. If you can't hang with others, don't play with them.

You personal attacks are pretty freaking stupid. Does your age give me any indepth knowledge of your life experience? What would my age give you? What open book? I don't know shit about you and you don't know shit about me. I don't hide behind ignore buttons. I've never have nor will. Though I chose whose opinion I give weight and whose doesn't. Your opinion is trash to me. Hanging with you is nothing. I could have when I was still in pre-school.

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 19:39
YESSSSSSSSSSSSS! It's like professional athletes. Indeed they love what they do, or else they wouldn't be good at it. But they also do it for the money and popularity. Actually, it applies to a lot of things. Mostly everything in life....... oh dang we're in the real world now, not the anime world anymore.

LIES! Anime is real world and real world is anime!

You personal attacks are pretty freaking stupid. Does your age give me any indepth knowledge of your life experience? What would my age give you? What open book? I don't know shit about you and you don't know shit about me. I don't hide behind ignore buttons. I've never have nor will. Though I chose whose opinion I give weight and whose doesn't. Your opinion is trash to me. Hanging with you is nothing. I could have when I was still in pre-school.

So you're still in school, gotcha. I won't waste my time dealing with an adolescent then.

Xellos-_^
2009-03-07, 19:47
Yea, you've gone through you whole life without once being jealous or being naive about something. Sure I believe you... honestly....

Seriously though do you think anyone believes that mendacity for half a second?:rolleyes:
i have jealous and still get jealous but i don't i have been naive pass the age of 13.

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 19:48
i have jealous and still get jealous but i don't i have been naive pass the age of 13.

Xellos! Your damn avatar and sig are distracting me! :heh:

Slick_rick
2009-03-07, 19:58
i have jealous and still get jealous but i don't i have been naive pass the age of 13.

Well at least you've seen that quality in others so you understand it well. I myself never thought myself as naive when I was a teenager but when I was in the military I saw a lot of stuff that made me realize differently. I was never completely naive but certain things in this world I'd never experienced when growing up can certainly make it seem as if I were.

Skyfall
2009-03-07, 20:11
And this is where i suggest we drop all the personal issues and jabs being thrown at each other, and go back to discussing the actual episode. If there are issues to be settled, please take it to PMs, instead of cluttering up the thread even more. Thank you.

danin8r44
2009-03-07, 20:32
I can understand the Nina "hating" in this episode. The Felli fans upset over the ruined romance (well hand touch). The average crowd is upset that her instant animosity towards Layfon for a past action (without any understanding of the real situation) contradicts her previous decision to help Layfon out and destroys the cohesion of her team that she always works towards. Nina still has room to wiggle out of her annoyingly static and unaccepting paradigm and be accepted by the masses, but at this point you can't blame people for disliking her character.

Also I'm brand new here so I'm not sure what has to into a spoiler category on an episode review.... I hope I did fine since every one here has watched the episode... right?

Also, Also don't get mad because I'm not trying to Nina hate, just trying to put reason behind why a large number of people see her as annoying at this point.

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 20:33
I can understand the Nina "hating" in this episode. The Felli fans upset over the ruined romance (well hand touch). The average crowd is upset that her instant animosity towards Layfon for a past action (without any understanding of the real situation) contradicts her previous decision to help Layfon out and destroys the cohesion of her team that she always works towards. Nina still has room to wiggle out of her annoyingly static and unaccepting paradigm and be accepted by the masses, but at this point you can't blame people for disliking her character.

Also I'm brand new here so I'm not sure what has to into a spoiler category on an episode review.... I hope I did fine since every one here has watched the episode... right?

Also, Also don't get mad because I'm not trying to Nina hate, just trying to put reason behind why a large number of people see her as annoying at this point.

You've done fine danin. No need to worry, your post is reasonable and fair for both sides. :nod:

Enternal
2009-03-07, 20:45
Holy moly! This place turns into a battlefield while I was away.

I can understand the Nina "hating" in this episode. The Felli fans upset over the ruined romance (well hand touch). The average crowd is upset that her instant animosity towards Layfon for a past action (without any understanding of the real situation) contradicts her previous decision to help Layfon out and destroys the cohesion of her team that she always works towards. Nina still has room to wiggle out of her annoyingly static and unaccepting paradigm and be accepted by the masses, but at this point you can't blame people for disliking her character.

Also I'm brand new here so I'm not sure what has to into a spoiler category on an episode review.... I hope I did fine since every one here has watched the episode... right?

Also, Also don't get mad because I'm not trying to Nina hate, just trying to put reason behind why a large number of people see her as annoying at this point.

Yeah, it's easy to understand why people are disliking Nina right now because I'm feel the same about her but it seems like there are some people who are beyond simply disliking Nina to outright hating her which I think seems to be an issue here. I don't like how Nina is right now especially in this episode but I still think that she's a strong character who is still willing to fight things head on rather than Layfon who tends to run away from things although he too seems to be getting better. What I think is that it's great that things like this is what makes characters understand each other more. It's just like how we see Felli is opening up. It's great to see that and the same thing applies to Nina and Layfon. The more they open up and understand each other, the better the relationship becomes.

Anyway, I find it's interesting how we when we can't beat someone, we go after someone close to them to hurt them. It's pretty sad I would say. At least the monster guy got his butt handed to him or rather he was killed.

Xellos-_^
2009-03-07, 20:46
personally i don't hate Nina but her character really is too cliche and too predictable. As for Feili kicking FonFon, you can get away with it if you are moe :p


Xellos! Your damn avatar and sig are distracting me! :heh:

weapons of mass distraction :D

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 20:47
Some people need to run away and grow up some, before they are able to come back and tackle old problems. Sometimes with the help of others, and sometimes by themselves. It's just not time yet for Layfon to come to terms with his past and put it behind him.

Must
Not
Look
At
WMD's...

Master Assassin
2009-03-07, 20:55
Some people need to run away and grow up some, before they are able to come back and tackle old problems. Sometimes with the help of others, and sometimes by themselves. It's just not time yet for Layfon to come to terms with his past and put it behind him.

And I guess someone's just gotta be the catalyst for Layfon's "awakening" from his pasts. :heh:

Enternal
2009-03-07, 20:57
personally i don't hate Nina but her character really is too cliche and too predictable. As for Feili kicking FonFon, you can get away with it if you are moe :p




weapons of mass distraction :D

Yeah definitely. She is very predictable. Hopefully that changes to make things much more interesting.

The thing about Felli is that she's too cute at times so she can get away with things unlike Nina. But... Leerin! Woohoo! You can see that I'm a Leerin fan so it's soo awesome that you get to see her in this episode a lot more.
... Dang, it seems like almost every posts that I made in this thread is something a long the line of "Yeah! Leerin!" and that's kind of sad.

And I guess someone's just gotta be the catalyst for Layfon's "awakening" from his pasts. :heh:

So Nina would probably be that person. Leerin is probably the comforter to keep him from falling any further. Felli is... I can't figure it out. Perhaps Felli is there to lighten the mood with the force of the frills? If it is, those frills really are a force to be reckon with.

justinstrife
2009-03-07, 21:06
And I guess someone's just gotta be the catalyst for Layfon's "awakening" from his pasts. :heh:

Yes and no. I believe Leerin, the Queen, HBers, and Felli also will play a role in their own way. Since they all have different views on Layfon and his past, they'll all be contributing somehow to his confronting his past and growing up further.

Fevvers
2009-03-07, 21:13
I can understand the Nina "hating" in this episode. The Felli fans upset over the ruined romance (well hand touch). The average crowd is upset that her instant animosity towards Layfon for a past action (without any understanding of the real situation) contradicts her previous decision to help Layfon out and destroys the cohesion of her team that she always works towards. Nina still has room to wiggle out of her annoyingly static and unaccepting paradigm and be accepted by the masses, but at this point you can't blame people for disliking her character.



I don't think anyone's upset that some people may dislike Nina, but more on the frothing hate she has been getting. Which is silly, if you ask me.

Either way, I can't really form a proper opinion on Nina's so-called animosity as I can't understand moonspeak, but from we were shown of her character in previous episodes, we already know that she's prideful and self-righteous. All of which have been treated as legitimate flaws by some of the characters in the show themselves. I don't expect changes right off the bat, but I do expect her to develop sometime soon (otherwise why all the focus?).

TrueKnight
2009-03-07, 21:15
I'm a Fon-fon x Felli fan and I loathe what Nina did at the end of the ep. But overall I still like her and I think she's like guiding Fon-fon to be a better soldier in terms of ideal just like in this episode and previous ones.

Enternal
2009-03-07, 21:15
I don't think anyone's upset that some people may dislike Nina, but more on the frothing hate she has been getting. Which is silly, if you ask me.

That is exactly how I felt about the issue

Yes and no. I believe Leerin, the Queen, HBers, and Felli also will play a role in their own way. Since they all have different views on Layfon and his past, they'll all be contributing somehow to his confronting his past and growing up further.

Oh yes I agree if you count all the other characters. With this interaction, Layfon would benefit a lot from it as well as all the other characters. I also do wonder if any of the other characters in the the current Regios would have any impact. I'm guess they do since in a way they kind of represent Layfon's present and probably all the characters interaction with him will also his future as how things will turn out.

That is what makes this series so interesting. We have the actions which are great and we also have great characters and great interactions. I can start to see why the novel won awards for it.

I'm a Fon-fon x Felli fan and I loathe what Nina did at the end of the ep. But overall I still like her and I think she's like guiding Fon-fon to be a better soldier in terms of ideal just like in this episode and previous ones.

Haha. I was like "Noo! Don't stop Nooo!" but it was too late...

ThoHell
2009-03-07, 21:24
I just don't like that serious facial expression on Nina's face. Just completely unfitting. She was the child running around being emo and playing war games and getting all giddy over little victories and now she's trying to go about being adult like and preaching. Preaching isn't the problem, but if she's going to go about preaching, she should be qualified to preach on that specific topic. It's like me trying to teach you law when I have no experience and little knowledge of it.

Enternal
2009-03-07, 21:31
I just don't like that serious facial expression on Nina's face. Just completely unfitting. She was the child running around being emo and playing war games and getting all giddy over little victories and now she's trying to go about being adult like and preaching. Preaching isn't the problem, but if she's going to go about preaching, she should be qualified to preach on that specific topic. It's like me trying to teach you law when I have no experience and little knowledge of it.

Well if it's about the topic then I can say that Nina knows. Although that knowledge is not the same as the knowledge that Layfon knows as what Layfon knows is about battle with monsters. What Nina knows is different. I won't say anymore than that because I don't want to get into trouble again with Skyfall about spoilers as you might saw in the the episode 8 thread there was part where a lot of posts were deleted. Heh, it was mostly mine.

Wargumm1i
2009-03-07, 21:39
Does anyone know the full extand of Layfon´s past and care to share it? Im really curious and can hardly contain myself :D

Enternal
2009-03-07, 21:42
Does anyone know the full extand of Layfon´s past and care to share it? Im really curious and can hardly contain myself :D

You should go look through the general discussion page although that might be a long read through. You can also go to the "Regios - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Regiosites only)" thread of this forum.

Wargumm1i
2009-03-07, 21:46
You should go look through the general discussion page although that might be a long read through. You can also go to the "Regios - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Regiosites only)" thread of this forum.

Well I will look through it if nobody replys.

ThoHell
2009-03-07, 21:48
Well I will look through it if nobody replys.

If you really want to know, read the manga or novel....

Enternal
2009-03-07, 21:49
Well I will look through it if nobody replys.

The problem is that it's kind of hard to reply his full past since that will get us in trouble due to the spoiler rules which I already got in trouble back in the the thread for Episode 8. Anyway, so far as we know, Layfon is a Heaven Blader which are the top 12 fighters in Grenden. Grenden is known to be a strong city which seeks out monsters and kills them so that gives you an idea of how strong their top 12 can be. However, due to some sins that Layfon commited, he had to leave to keep things peaceful in Grenden which is where we are now. That's all we know about him right now.

Wargumm1i
2009-03-07, 21:50
Read the manga or novel.....

Im not much of a novel reader.

aapmenss
2009-03-07, 21:58
wel stil raw so have to wait few days to watch but my question is does this episode fit into the novel storywise?? for people who read novel please tel :)

Manji Midou
2009-03-07, 23:07
so much misplaced hate for nina here, the only worth loathing character in regios is fellis.
o.o

Bonta Kun
2009-03-07, 23:31
I don't dislike or hate Nina even with all thats happened in this ep...well maybe a wee bit of anger for the end bit!:mad:

but in all honestly Nina is poking her nose where it really shouldn't be poking, Fon-Fons past is Fon-Fons past alone, no one elses.
Only time Nina should be poking her nose in Fon-Fon's past if it were to somehow become a hinderance or danger to the squad or mission but frankly I don't see how it is.

Altho it seems Nina and Co. are going out of there way to make it so....:eyebrow:

cynicalicious
2009-03-08, 00:20
What I find interesting is that nobody is even bothering to talk about the important stuff...

For starters, that Gorneo was Gahard's student (if i heard that right), so Gorneo trained under him. That would explain a great deal of Gorneo's hatred of Fon-Fon. I'd hate the dude who cut off my master's arm, too, even if my master was a jerk. That's the sort of thing you swear revenge on if you live in a martial society. Of course, now that his own brother has killed his old master... Gorneo is going to have to update his "Must get revenge" list. lol. And how does that even work out? Do family loyalties trump that? I guess he'll just deepen his hatred of Fon-Fon some more. lol.

And just what did Gorneo know about Gahard's attacks on the people responsible? And what did Gorneo know about Gahard's attack on Leerin and her and Fon-Fon's foster father?

The other interesting thing is that at the end of the episode, Fon-Fon said to Felli (correct me if I'm wrong), that he now thinks that maybe his way of thinking is wrong. Interesting. I could be wrong on the exact translation, but that's how it sounded to me.

Master Assassin
2009-03-08, 01:08
What I find interesting is that nobody is even bothering to talk about the important stuff...

For starters, that Gorneo was Gahard's student (if i heard that right), so Gorneo trained under him. That would explain a great deal of Gorneo's hatred of Fon-Fon. I'd hate the dude who cut off my master's arm, too, even if my master was a jerk. That's the sort of thing you swear revenge on if you live in a martial society. Of course, now that his own brother has killed his old master... Gorneo is going to have to update his "Must get revenge" list. lol. And how does that even work out? Do family loyalties trump that? I guess he'll just deepen his hatred of Fon-Fon some more. lol.

And just what did Gorneo know about Gahard's attacks on the people responsible? And what did Gorneo know about Gahard's attack on Leerin and her and Fon-Fon's foster father?

The other interesting thing is that at the end of the episode, Fon-Fon said to Felli (correct me if I'm wrong), that he now thinks that maybe his way of thinking is wrong. Interesting. I could be wrong on the exact translation, but that's how it sounded to me.


Because the less important stuff is so compelling to talk about than what actually happened around Gahard, Gorneo and Layfon? And the rest who found out about that?

I think Gorneo will be somehow later "corrected" by his bro, but nah I won't tell what I think of it for now.

... Was it just me or did anybody miss Felli smiled (with the blush, of course) upon reaching for Layfon's hand to help her get back up? Although it was brief...

TrueKnight
2009-03-08, 03:10
The other interesting thing is that at the end of the episode, Fon-Fon said to Felli (correct me if I'm wrong), that he now thinks that maybe his way of thinking is wrong. Interesting. I could be wrong on the exact translation, but that's how it sounded to me.

My japanese is by no means perfect and I can't even read kanji. But I do have some understanding of the conversation and what Felli and Fon-fon were talking about in the end of ep. Overall yes, he's uncertain about his way of life now, as you posted 'maybe'. It's like Fon-fon was saying 'I am wrong' but added with a questionare tone into 'I am wrong?' or 'maybe I was wrong/mistaken?'. I'm more with the latter though.


... Was it just me or did anybody miss Felli smiled (with the blush, of course) upon reaching for Layfon's hand to help her get back up? Although it was brief...

No, most likely all us Felli fans saw it when watching the raw, especially Margafred lol.

Master Assassin
2009-03-08, 03:17
No, most likely all us Felli fans saw it when watching the raw, especially Margafred lol.

I thought so. And so off I go sulking at a corner with a dialogue bubble appearing over me containing these three letters: "OTL".

margafred
2009-03-08, 03:17
Felli x Fon Fon fans should never missed that moment...its a once in a lifetime treasure that appeared so rare,but once you notice it,you find it sooo beautiful,you would want to repeat that scene over and over again :heh:


For starters, that Gorneo was Gahard's student (if i heard that right), so Gorneo trained under him. That would explain a great deal of Gorneo's hatred of Fon-Fon. I'd hate the dude who cut off my master's arm, too, even if my master was a jerk. That's the sort of thing you swear revenge on if you live in a martial society. Of course, now that his own brother has killed his old master... Gorneo is going to have to update his "Must get revenge" list. lol. And how does that even work out? Do family loyalties trump that? I guess he'll just deepen his hatred of Fon-Fon some more. lol.

And just what did Gorneo know about Gahard's attacks on the people responsible? And what did Gorneo know about Gahard's attack on Leerin and her and Fon-Fon's foster father?

At first i was confused too when Gorneo said about Garhald Barrey being his "ani",but after giving it some thought again,most likely it refers to that usual "aibo-aniki" relationship between a master and apprentice.Gorneo's hatred for Layfon was actually because of Layfon did something to his "ani" whom totally had no blood relation with the Lukens family.

What makes me wonder is,how Gorneo ended up in Zuellni in the beginning?I'm sure his case was different from Layfon,where Layfon was exiled away from Grendan by the queen herself.I'm not sure how Garhald's case made him leaving Grendan and ended up in Zuellni,coz as an apprentice to Garhald,he should actually stay together with his master while his master is still alive,but he didn't.Its funny that he didn't avenge for his master while he still at Grendan and while Layfon was still a Tenken,instead he just carried that hatred together with him to Zuellni,and somehow with god's luck,the one that he wanted to get his hand to had arrived in Zuellni too.

I'm sure by the time Gorneo left Grendan,Garhald was still in his human form before somehow he mutated and became a pollutant beast.So it obvious that he wouldn't know the crimes that his master did after he left Grendan.All he knew was that,Layfon was the one to be blamed.

But Layfon did the right thing as a Tenken...to live and to survive means you need to fight.Garhald i believe was one of the competitor that fights for the Tenken title,and if Layfon somehow lose to him,he would loose his Tenken title,and he would never be able to help those children in the orphanage where he lived at.Of course someone like Nina who think of fighting to become strong and achieve glorious victory only would never understand Layfon's reasoning in fighting.

Enternal
2009-03-08, 04:19
Felli x Fon Fon fans should never missed that moment...its a once in a lifetime treasure that appeared so rare,but once you notice it,you find it sooo beautiful,you would want to repeat that scene over and over again :heh:


At first i was confused too when Gorneo said about Garhald Barrey being his "ani",but after giving it some thought again,most likely it refers to that usual "aibo-aniki" relationship between a master and apprentice.Gorneo's hatred for Layfon was actually because of Layfon did something to his "ani" whom totally had no blood relation with the Lukens family.

What makes me wonder is,how Gorneo ended up in Zuellni in the beginning?I'm sure his case was different from Layfon,where Layfon was exiled away from Grendan by the queen herself.I'm not sure how Garhald's case made him leaving Grendan and ended up in Zuellni,coz as an apprentice to Garhald,he should actually stay together with his master while his master is still alive,but he didn't.Its funny that he didn't avenge for his master while he still at Grendan and while Layfon was still a Tenken,instead he just carried that hatred together with him to Zuellni,and somehow with god's luck,the one that he wanted to get his hand to had arrived in Zuellni too.

I'm sure by the time Gorneo left Grendan,Garhald was still in his human form before somehow he mutated and became a pollutant beast.So it obvious that he wouldn't know the crimes that his master did after he left Grendan.All he knew was that,Layfon was the one to be blamed.

But Layfon did the right thing as a Tenken...to live and to survive means you need to fight.Garhald i believe was one of the competitor that fights for the Tenken title,and if Layfon somehow lose to him,he would loose his Tenken title,and he would never be able to help those children in the orphanage where he lived at.Of course someone like Nina who think of fighting to become strong and achieve glorious victory only would never understand Layfon's reasoning in fighting.

Yes, Nina's idea of victory is different but I'm thinking that it's not the issue here but rather pride that is the issue here. She probably wanted him to be fair and square when he was fighting against Garhald which in way is correct but at the same time not correct since the guy was fighting dirty anyway. If he fight fair and square, his deeds will be leaked out but if he kill the guy, the problem goes away right? Apparently that plan did not work out so great because he missed. At the same time, I think that because it seems like he attempted to kill the guy, the people would assumed that he was hiding something because he knows it wasn't something good.

Yaluen
2009-03-08, 04:48
Felli x Fon Fon fans should never missed that moment...its a once in a lifetime treasure that appeared so rare,but once you notice it,you find it sooo beautiful,you would want to repeat that scene over and over again :heh:

I second that. It was truly a (if not the only) shining moment in the episode.

I'm still trying to figure out whether I should take this episode lightly or not. I mean, the whole revelation of the past is pretty serious stuff, yet on the other hand it feels like they weren't taking the episode seriously at all. The red-head sure didn't help things either, even when she did go berserk after a bit of serious foreshadowing of the hooded dudes.

But anyway, I liked the way Layfon handled the entire situation. When confronted, he was able to respond with an answer that even made Nina question some of her own motives. And that little reflection at the end of wondering whether he was wrong in the path he chose to take: classic. This may actually be the first time where Layfon revealed his true character instead of being dragged around by the other cast.

On a side note, am I the only one that couldn't help but laugh at the scene where Lilin and her father were facing Garhold in his mutated form? I mean, everything just came out being so...corny. Did Lilin's voice suddenly take on a higher pitch or something during that scene? And the way the old man just fell backwards after taking that sound blast...couldn't he at least try to look like he's crumpling to the floor from over-exertion?

Oh, and regarding the relation between Gorneo and Garhald, I highly doubt it's master and apprentice type of relationship. First given the idea from the Chinese translation of "ani", I believe it's much more likely that Gorneo and Garhald both happen to be apprentice under the same master, with Garhald being the elder and Gorneo being the younger apprentice. Thus, it would of course be natural that Gorneo would refer to Garhald as his "ani" given the time they spent training together. Besides, although anything's possible, I highly doubt a master of a certain art would be defeated so easily by Layfon. Also, I have never heard of an apprentice be so close to their master that they'd refer to him as "big bro" or anything of that sort. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, since I've never read the novel either :rolleyes:

last note: don't hate on Nina. She's the squad leader, and it's kind of her responsibility to understand what's going on behind each team member. Her part in the entire episode is simply trying to come to terms with a fellow member's past and thought process (although suggesting that they shouldn't stay together in the same squad may be a matter of being a bit hardheaded...)

zibi88
2009-03-08, 04:48
From this episode all I didnt liked was Nina's attitude of "I know better than you" seriously if she was a good captain then she would accept Layfon on who he is and not what he did in past (past is past and bitching about it like I know better about someones else life wont change a thing)

Will Ninas bitching change minds and hearts of all people in Grendan ? rather not so she should be quiet.... she has her own life and problems and Layfon has his own and she has no right to bitch about it and lecture him with her own ideals (since both their lifes were way to different)

Nina doesnt understand the thing that she was doing thing for her own while Layfon had in his mind good of many children in orphanage and that is different story........Layfon didnt got the money for himself but for others ^^


But well Layfon doesnt care what Nina thinks ^^ she can bable her stupid lines all she wants becouse Layfon knows that what he done was good but people around dont see that...... Grendan people mostly think that HB is only a tool that must fight for free...and they dont have their own lifes....that they belong to the city as weapons to keep their buts safe...... and when they learned that one of them was takeing money for fighting it was so much of a shock (since its not for free) so they demanded from the queen to exile him.........


Garhald in his monster form was sawying that it was his HB space and he took it away from him......and here Savarius was right (kinda defending Layfon) with saying that Garhald was simply not strong enought for HB title.......

I think that Queen didnt kicked Layfon from Grendan becouse she wanted too.... but becouse people of city demanded it so she had to do that..... mostly it was not a kick from her but she stated that he should leave...... and Layfon decided to listen to her and leave Grendan since mostly noone wants him here anymore.....(besides Leerin that is ^^ )

All that Layon needs now is Leerin ^^ simply after this episode Nina in pairing fell to the bottom of the list.... even Meishen is higher than Nina in my ranks.... mostly Feli knows about Layfons past and she doesnt much care about it.....

Enternal
2009-03-08, 04:56
From this episode all I didnt liked was Nina's attitude of "I know better than you" seriously if she was a good captain then she would accept Layfon on who he is and not what he did in past (past is past and bitching about it like I know better about someones else life wont change a thing)

Will Ninas bitching change minds and hearts of all people in Grendan ? rather not so she should be quiet.... she has her own life and problems and Layfon has his own and she has no right to bitch about it and lecture him with her own ideals (since both their lifes were way to different)

Nina doesnt understand the thing that she was doing thing for her own while Layfon had in his mind good of many children in orphanage and that is different story........Layfon didnt got the money for himself but for others ^^


But well Layfon doesnt care what Nina thinks ^^ she can bable her stupid lines all she wants becouse Layfon knows that what he done was good but people around dont see that...... Grendan people mostly think that HB is only a tool that must fight for free...and they dont have their own lifes....that they belong to the city as weapons to keep their buts safe...... and when they learned that one of them was takeing money for fighting it was so much of a shock (since its not for free) so they demanded from the queen to exile him.........


Garhald in his monster form was sawying that it was his HB space and he took it away from him......and here Savarius was right (kinda defending Layfon) with saying that Garhald was simply was not strong enought for HB title.......

I think that Queen didnt kicked Layfon from Grendan becouse she wanted too.... but becouse people of city demanded it so she had to do that..... mostly it was not a kick from her but she stated that he should leave...... and Layfon decided to listen to her and leave Grendan since mostly noone wants him here anymore.....(besides Leerin that is ^^ )

All that Layon needs now is Leerin ^^ simply after this episode Nina in pairing fell to the bottom of the list.... even Meishen is higher than Nina in my ranks.... mostly Feli knows about Layfons past and she doesnt much care about it.....

Well but isn't that great? It means that development between them is happening. It makes them learn more about each other and about what they agree and what they don't. Even if Nina's bitching was "not needed," apparently it did make Layfon have a bit of a reflection of what he did in his path was right or wrong. Even if it was only a little but of reflection, he did rethink about it a little. We might not agree with what Nina did but at the same time, we cannot exactly totally agree with what everyone does and this is just one of them.

I think that Queen didnt kicked Layfon from Grendan becouse she wanted too.... but becouse people of city demanded it so she had to do that..... mostly it was not a kick from her but she stated that he should leave...... and Layfon decided to listen to her and leave Grendan since mostly noone wants him here anymore.....(besides Leerin that is ^^ )

It sure was. Also, back in the previous episodes, apparently there was a tournament going on and the winner was decided. Remember how Canalice (impersonating the queen) rejected that the winner should become a Heaven Blader leaving that spot open. You can kinda guess that the open seat was reserved only for Layfon which is why nobody is to take that spot.

JediNight
2009-03-08, 05:12
Layfon just basically says "I wonder if my way of thinking is wrong?"

And Nina conveniently coming in at exactly the wrong time ;)

cheesie
2009-03-08, 06:39
Good good episode:heh:

-snip-


I haven't watched Episode 9 yet, but after a certain someone's insistence, I'd just like to say that, after a long war, it seems we'll be fighting on the same side at last. :D

I feel that for me, Nina is actually the more interesting character here considering how the latter is intermingled more with Layfon than anyone else in terms of the character development and how serious the series seemed to treat them. We learn a wealth of information about themselves from the way it just flows out whenever they're talking. Their relationship also raised up a couple of issues that they themselves don't seem to be aware of, and by having Layfon forcing Nina to address her flaws, and Nina re-adjusting the balance by doing the same for him, it provides a good correlation between their relationship and their character development.

Considering that we still have a long way to go, it's inevitable that Nina will go through more unfavorable bumps along the way, no doubt brushing fans the wrong way, but it also means that she has the most potential to undergo a dramatic character development. Nina is undeniably stubborn, and hard-headed especially when she's about to confront her flaws, but what's great is that they could easily be her strengths at the same time. The lessons Nina need to learn are fairly basic and straight-forward, which I suspect is causing the impatience of some fans, but I'm sure in due time, she'll deliver great results later in the long run.

I just realized that this is the Episode 9 thread, so I suggest that we all move the Nina discussions to the Nina thread, as it seems to be looking quite empty at the moment, and I'm sure it'll be a good place to hold the things people are currently saying about her here. ;) Would that suit everyone?

TrueKnight
2009-03-08, 07:55
But anyway, I liked the way Layfon handled the entire situation. When confronted, he was able to respond with an answer that even made Nina question some of her own motives. And that little reflection at the end of wondering whether he was wrong in the path he chose to take: classic. This may actually be the first time where Layfon revealed his true character instead of being dragged around by the other cast.

He's quite badass in that scene and Layfon reveals his true dark character in terms of combat and as a Heaven Blade. Nina's bitching about how wrong his way thinking was and he simply reply 'its for survival', Heaven Blades are bunch of spartans. If you bother looking at the spoiler thread you could see next preview pic of Layfon put an evil smirk when probably fighting Gorneo and Chanten in a match, heh his true character revealed lol.

faiz blaster
2009-03-08, 10:36
Just saw the raw episode. From what I could understand, Layfon's sin was that....

.... he sold out his Heavens Blade for money.

Have to say though, I don't really get why Nina is bitching about that so much. Layfon himself said that it was something that he did in order to survive. On another hand, I am quite surprised to see that Layfon's beliefs match closely with that of Zuelli's director (Felli's brother).

cynicalicious
2009-03-08, 10:37
Here's what Fon-Fon did that was so freakin' wrong. In the fight with Gahard, he violated a major taboo-- he chopped the guy's freakin' arm off and tried to murder him in what was basically a bout.

Now, imagine that in the little play fights that happen in Zuellni, that they just start trying to murder each other and chop each other into little pieces.

THAT'S what's so wrong with what he did. He turned a match into the Real Thing. What if American Football players just started shooting at each other mid-play in order to silence a rival? That's kind of like what he did.

The underground fights were a separate thing. Fon-Fon was engaged in underground fighting-- imagine if one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was engaged in a Mafia-backed underground fighting ring. Maybe it's just a dog-fighting ring. Hey, he needs the money, right? You'd probably hate his guts for it, and ask him to resign his commission. Well, duh. It's illegal. Same thing.

He's getting paid to protect the country, not to go bashing random people in the head. He took an oath. Violating it has consequences.

Gahard *didn't* have pure motives. He wanted Fon-Fon's HB, and he was going to call out Fon-Fon for Fon-Fon's illegal activities. Garhad was blackmailing him, and yes, Gahard was also in the wrong.

But that didn't justify Fon-Fon chopping off his arm and trying to murder him.

That Fon-Fon can't see that he was in the wrong is his main problem. You don't want a combat monster who can't make moral distinctions. (It's been said before that the HBs are essentially monsters in terms of power. People who have such power have to have more care in their actions.)

If his code is simply "I fight for what I want to protect," then he'll only fight for whoever he feels like fighting for. Hey, that's great if he feels like fighting for you, but it sucks if he decides on a whim that he doesn't like you. That's when it really sucks to be an NPC. (And you're all NPCs IRL.) You wouldn't want your government to treat you like that, and you hate it when they do.

He just happens to be somewhat nice for now, but he's sitting on the edge of a very slippery slope where he could wind up being very much of a villain.

And that's why Nina is so very very pissed off at him. Granted, she's not perfect either, but she wasn't going around abusing her position illegally and then attempting to murder someone to cover it up. (Doesn't sound so noble now when you put it those kind of terms, huh?)

Fon-Fon knew the rules as a HB, and he willingly broke them. It doesn't matter for whom he broke them. Sure, yesterday it was "for the orphans," but who will he do it for next time?

It doesn't matter that "Everyone just sees him as a tool," he *willingly* signed up for that deal. He wanted the blade. If money was what he wanted, he simply could have become a mercenary.

Anyway, all of this is pretty much moot, since his way of thinking is about to change. (If it didn't change, we wouldn't have a story.)

justinstrife
2009-03-08, 10:50
I haven't watched Episode 9 yet, but after a certain someone's insistence, I'd just like to say that, after a long war, it seems we'll be fighting on the same side at last. :D

I feel that for me, Nina is actually the more interesting character here considering how the latter is intermingled more with Layfon than anyone else in terms of the character development and how serious the series seemed to treat them. We learn a wealth of information about themselves from the way it just flows out whenever they're talking. Their relationship also raised up a couple of issues that they themselves don't seem to be aware of, and by having Layfon forcing Nina to address her flaws, and Nina re-adjusting the balance by doing the same for him, it provides a good correlation between their relationship and their character development.

Considering that we still have a long way to go, it's inevitable that Nina will go through more unfavorable bumps along the way, no doubt brushing fans the wrong way, but it also means that she has the most potential to undergo a dramatic character development. Nina is undeniably stubborn, and hard-headed especially when she's about to confront her flaws, but what's great is that they could easily be her strengths at the same time. The lessons Nina need to learn are fairly basic and straight-forward, which I suspect is causing the impatience of some fans, but I'm sure in due time, she'll deliver great results later in the long run.

I just realized that this is the Episode 9 thread, so I suggest that we all move the Nina discussions to the Nina thread, as it seems to be looking quite empty at the moment, and I'm sure it'll be a good place to hold the things people are currently saying about her here. ;) Would that suit everyone?

Guess we won't be on the same side in this show Crisis. :heh:

solembum
2009-03-08, 11:25
yay we just saw felli blush and smile(the second time) maybe only fonfon can make her smile :D that tells us something ^_^

Here's what Fon-Fon did that was so freakin' wrong. In the fight with Gahard, he violated a major taboo-- he chopped the guy's freakin' arm off and tried to murder him in what was basically a bout.

Now, imagine that in the little play fights that happen in Zuellni, that they just start trying to murder each other and chop each other into little pieces.

THAT'S what's so wrong with what he did. He turned a match into the Real Thing. What if American Football players just started shooting at each other mid-play in order to silence a rival? That's kind of like what he did.

The underground fights were a separate thing. Fon-Fon was engaged in underground fighting-- imagine if one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was engaged in a Mafia-backed underground fighting ring. Maybe it's just a dog-fighting ring. Hey, he needs the money, right? You'd probably hate his guts for it, and ask him to resign his commission. Well, duh. It's illegal. Same thing.

He's getting paid to protect the country, not to go bashing random people in the head. He took an oath. Violating it has consequences.

Gahard *didn't* have pure motives. He wanted Fon-Fon's HB, and he was going to call out Fon-Fon for Fon-Fon's illegal activities. Garhad was blackmailing him, and yes, Gahard was also in the wrong.

But that didn't justify Fon-Fon chopping off his arm and trying to murder him.

That Fon-Fon can't see that he was in the wrong is his main problem. You don't want a combat monster who can't make moral distinctions. (It's been said before that the HBs are essentially monsters in terms of power. People who have such power have to have more care in their actions.)

If his code is simply "I fight for what I want to protect," then he'll only fight for whoever he feels like fighting for. Hey, that's great if he feels like fighting for you, but it sucks if he decides on a whim that he doesn't like you. That's when it really sucks to be an NPC. (And you're all NPCs IRL.) You wouldn't want your government to treat you like that, and you hate it when they do.

He just happens to be somewhat nice for now, but he's sitting on the edge of a very slippery slope where he could wind up being very much of a villain.

And that's why Nina is so very very pissed off at him. Granted, she's not perfect either, but she wasn't going around abusing her position illegally and then attempting to murder someone to cover it up. (Doesn't sound so noble now when you put it those kind of terms, huh?)

Fon-Fon knew the rules as a HB, and he willingly broke them. It doesn't matter for whom he broke them. Sure, yesterday it was "for the orphans," but who will he do it for next time?

It doesn't matter that "Everyone just sees him as a tool," he *willingly* signed up for that deal. He wanted the blade. If money was what he wanted, he simply could have become a mercenary.

Anyway, all of this is pretty much moot, since his way of thinking is about to change. (If it didn't change, we wouldn't have a story.)

allo, can you please tell me where you saw that they weren't suppose to kill each other in that bout? or where it says that he shouldn't injure/damage/hurt/decapitate/kill/etc.. his enemy? I mean layfon did have a sword(not to mention those colorful thing that he unleashes which looks dangerous) and the other guy has gauntlets(and the same colorful things:rolleyes:). did you really expect them to have a fight without injuring each other? I mean do you what layfon to do poses with his sword and intimidate the guy to lose? come on he has to swing his sword and when a sharp blade hits something it might cut it you know.

anyway I haven't seen the anime with subs yet but judging from how the people cheered when that referee looking guy said the winner was layfon(that how I interpreted it, correct me if im wrong please) the act of injuring your enemy in that particular bout is not a "taboo" as you put it. and if you got it from the novel sorry then my bad. but I think this is anime discussion. peace, out.

and this concludes my first post.

oh. yeah hooray for FELLI gotta mention it in the first post too.

and oh the FRILLS the friiiiills:heh:

TrueKnight
2009-03-08, 12:26
It doesn't matter that "Everyone just sees him as a tool," he *willingly* signed up for that deal. He wanted the blade. If money was what he wanted, he simply could have become a mercenary.

Ultimately his goal for becoming a Heaven Blade was to make money for his orphanage, which he did make. But the question and moral standpoints here are how he did it? Good or bad? He chooses the legal part (good) at first by killing Filth Monsters, but for him it's just not enough so he involved himself in illegal fighting (that Gahard noticed) which brought us to the situation where he was forced to kill Gahard using the tournament as cover, I guess you could categorize this as 'bad'.

What Fon-fon did is justified from the 'purpose' point of view that is to make money, but for us at least on how he exercised them were morally unjustified. I don't know what the Heaven Blade's stand of 'moral' viewpoint is, because from what I see Savaris isn't THAT much differrent from Fon-fon either. >.>

Eurys
2009-03-08, 12:31
I don't know what the Heaven Blade's stand of 'moral' viewpoint is, because from what I see Savaris isn't THAT much differrent from Fon-fon either. >.>

Heh, I bet they're hiding a ton of informations from the general public :eyespin:

I must say I do enjoy Layfon firmly defending his actions, no matter how dubious. It's a nice change from a generic hero. As long as he's not forcing his views on others...

justinstrife
2009-03-08, 12:57
He's not doing that, but Nina is.

ipernorris
2009-03-08, 13:00
For me Layfon was in the right in killing the blackmailer because he was just trash and he could damage him very much, while he needed money to give food to the orphanage brats. The purpose you act in a certain way rather than in another is VERY important, with good peace of cynicalicious' wall of text.
That WoT is the summary of Grendan's people's PoV: it's all about rules and pride. Bullshit which doesn't take into account facts and their explanations and that's why Grendan's people are retarded.

TrueKnight
2009-03-08, 13:06
I guess the moral question here is,

'To make people you care and love happy, are we allowed to be evil?'

Which if applied with moral terms,

'To make people you care and love happy (personal point of view), are we allowed to be evil (general society's point of view)?'

For Fon-fon, maybe yes.

ipernorris
2009-03-08, 13:20
For Fon-fon, maybe yes.
The moral is something WE humans decide to apply, it's a conventional thing thus widely debatable and can be modified as well. It depends on times as well: the aswer to your question is probably a big fat no in our rich western countries, but it's a big fat yes if your family is starving to death in a third world country. Layfon applied Macchiavelli's "the end justify the means" literally, with good peace of moral and pride crap. He became a HB wielder just for his friends, not for the crap Grendan people believe in. The nonsense contained in the wall of text "it's ok if Layfon is your friend, it is not if he decides differently" is just pure speculation passed as solid evidence. :rolleyes:
So far we know Layfon fought for his friends and he wanted to kill that blackmailer because he became an obstacle to his primary purpose of existence. There is no evidence he would start killing people he doesn't like randomly. :rolleyes:

TrueKnight
2009-03-08, 13:46
The moral is something WE humans decide to apply, it's a conventional thing thus widely debatable and can be modified as well. It depends on times as well: the aswer to your question is probably a big fat no in our rich western countries, but it's a big fat yes if your family is starving to death in a third world country. Layfon applied Macchiavelli's "the end justify the means" literally, with good peace of moral and pride crap. He became a HB wielder just for his friends, not for the crap Grendan people believe in. The nonsense contained in the wall of text "it's ok if Layfon is your friend, it is not if he decides differently" is just pure speculation passed as solid evidence.
So far we know Layfon fought for his friends and he wanted to kill that blackmailer because he became an obstacle to his primary purpose of existence. There is no evidence he would start killing people he doesn't like randomly.

Personally I’m more inclined with following the general society’s set of moral conduct already implemented in form the laws or mutual agreements because that’s what preventing us of doing bad things to each other and any violation could be sanctioned and enforced lol. But that’s just me, Fon-fon is what the author wants him to be.

I just don’t like how Nina was bitching about Layfon’s way of thinking, without any consideration of what he’s been through, added with the fact of what she did at the end of the ep ruining Felli x Fon-fon moments that made me loathe her, but as I said before, I still like her as a character and praise her effort to straightening up Layfon as an ideal soldier. I think she just needs to understand more (and I mean more) why Fon-fon did that kind of thing before finally start talking and persuade him.

I also respect Fon-fon for voicing and stand firm on his own dogma, be it judged as ‘evil’ or ‘unlawful’ by others. But as cynicalicious said it’s going to change in future ep because he’s not in Grendan anymore where the pressures not there. At Zuellni he can finally be a ‘hero’ protecting the lives of people. I guess it's his girls job to make sure his attitude is checked lol.

Xellos-_^
2009-03-08, 14:21
yay we just saw felli blush and smile(the second time) maybe only fonfon can make her smile :D that tells us something ^_^



allo, can you please tell me where you saw that they weren't suppose to kill each other in that bout? or where it says that he shouldn't injure/damage/hurt/decapitate/kill/etc.. his enemy? I mean layfon did have a sword(not to mention those colorful thing that he unleashes which looks dangerous) and the other guy has gauntlets(and the same colorful things:rolleyes:). did you really expect them to have a fight without injuring each other? I mean do you what layfon to do poses with his sword and intimidate the guy to lose? come on he has to swing his sword and when a sharp blade hits something it might cut it you know.

anyway I haven't seen the anime with subs yet but judging from how the people cheered when that referee looking guy said the winner was layfon(that how I interpreted it, correct me if im wrong please) the act of injuring your enemy in that particular bout is not a "taboo" as you put it. and if you got it from the novel sorry then my bad. but I think this is anime discussion. peace, out.

and this concludes my first post.

oh. yeah hooray for FELLI gotta mention it in the first post too.

and oh the FRILLS the friiiiills:heh:

it is a competiton, people do get hurt and sometimes even die but you are not suppose to delibrately try to maim or kill the opponent. It is still a competition.

What Layfon try to do was to delibrately kill the guy blackmailing him. Under the law of any country and any time period that counts as attempted murder.

The Tenken are basically walking nukes there are no safty controls on them. If a Tenken goes on the rampage only another Tenken or the Queen can stop him.

The reaction to Layfon by the public is essentially our if we learn that our countries Nuke can walk around and decide when to blow up by itself and that there is no safty shutoff device to control the walking Nukes.

Layfon is not wrong either as this world is very unforgivable to the weak only the strongest survive. As someone who is a orphen himself he understands that concept extremely well. That is why he wanted to support the other oprhenages and give the other orphens a chance because no one else was going to do it. For someone like Layfon, laws, honor and pride are something you follow when you can afford to not if you are trying to survive.

cynicalicious
2009-03-08, 14:26
Attempted murder isn't an exercise in "comparative morality."

Those people weren't cheering, btw. The kids with Leerin were turning away in horror. They were ashamed.

Leerin wasn't standing back aghast because she was so impressed with his move, either. She was horrified at what Fon-Fon had turned into-- someone who had lost all moral guidance-- basically, a monster.

And someone with no moral guidance shouldn't have a weapon like a HB that's capable of doing that kind of damage. He left the Queen with no choice in that matter. That was entirely his fault. His choices, his decisions.

Wargumm1i
2009-03-08, 14:33
Attempted murder isn't an exercise in "comparative morality."

Those people weren't cheering, btw. The kids with Leerin were turning away in horror. They were ashamed.

Leerin wasn't standing back aghast because she was so impressed with his move, either. She was horrified at what Fon-Fon had turned into-- someone who had lost all moral guidance-- basically, a monster.

And someone with no moral guidance shouldn't have a weapon like a HB that's capable of doing that kind of damage. He left the Queen with no choice in that matter. That was entirely his fault. His choices, his decisions.

This is what happens when people are pushed too a desperate state, of course Layfon isint a murderer at heart but the guy who tried to blackmail him gave Layfon the killing desire for a short period of time.

So you could say that Layfon only did what he was taught to do, and thats fighting.

ipernorris
2009-03-08, 14:33
Attempted murder isn't an exercise in "comparative morality."

Those people weren't cheering, btw. The kids with Leerin were turning away in horror. They were ashamed.

Leerin wasn't standing back aghast because she was so impressed with his move, either. She was horrified at what Fon-Fon had turned into-- someone who had lost all moral guidance-- basically, a monster.

And someone with no moral guidance shouldn't have a weapon like a HB that's capable of doing that kind of damage. He left the Queen with no choice in that matter. That was entirely his fault. His choices, his decisions.
Yeah while the blackmailer was a poor dude who only wanted the heaven blade Layfon had. :rolleyes:
Anyway where in the hell are you taking that Layfon attemted to murder the blackmailer? He aimed for the arm, if he wanted he may have aimed directly for the head: but perhaps you're too lost in your quest in defense of the law no matter what... :heh:

This is what happens when people are pushed too a desperate state, of course Layfon isint a murderer at heart but the guy who tried to blackmail him gave Layfon the killing desire for a short period of time.

So you could say that Layfon only did what he was taught to do, and thats fighting.
Yeah and anyway I think Layfon restrained himself from killing the dude.
But for someone the fact is "as is", without considering what caused it to happen. I think in Regios the shippers are appearing so my ignore list will grow fast again! :D

justinstrife
2009-03-08, 14:42
Yeah while the blackmailer was a poor dude who only wanted the heaven blade Layfon had. :rolleyes:
Anyway where in the hell are you taking that Layfon attemted to murder the blackmailer? He aimed for the arm, if he wanted he may have aimed directly for the head: but perhaps you're too lost in your quest in defense of the law no matter what... :heh:


Yeah and anyway I think Layfon restrained himself from killing the dude.
But for someone the fact is "as is", without considering what caused it to happen. I think in Regios the shippers are appearing so my ignore list will grow fast again! :D

Let me know if I say or do something to put me on your ignore list and I'll edit/delete the post that caused it. :heh:

The world Layfon lives in, is a far cry from the world many of us live in, so I'd say things are viewed just a tad differently there.

Enternal
2009-03-08, 14:54
Yeah while the blackmailer was a poor dude who only wanted the heaven blade Layfon had. :rolleyes:
Anyway where in the hell are you taking that Layfon attemted to murder the blackmailer? He aimed for the arm, if he wanted he may have aimed directly for the head: but perhaps you're too lost in your quest in defense of the law no matter what... :heh:


Yeah and anyway I think Layfon restrained himself from killing the dude.
But for someone the fact is "as is", without considering what caused it to happen. I think in Regios the shippers are appearing so my ignore list will grow fast again! :D

All those info right should actually go in the Spoilers section shouldn't it? I guess we got spoiled again by the novel readers. Anyway, if he did not kill the guy, what do you think would happen? Even without that info that was provided by some users, you can kind of figure out that the deeds that Layfon did would probably leaked out. What Layfon did not know that his attempt became more of a problem then than his deeds underground.

ipernorris
2009-03-08, 14:57
Let me know if I say or do something to put me on your ignore list and I'll edit/delete the post that caused it. :heh:

The world Layfon lives in, is a far cry from the world many of us live in, so I'd say things are viewed just a tad differently there.
Huh? Where did you jump out from?!? :D
I wasn't talking about you!

All those info right should actually go in the Spoilers section shouldn't it? I guess we got spoiled again by the novel readers.
It was all shown in episode 9...

Enternal
2009-03-08, 14:58
It was all shown in episode 9...


No, I meant the part regarding how he attempt to murder Garheld. You were thinking that he restrained from killing him but that's not it. It would not really make sense if he did either unless what Layfon was trying to do was scaring Garheld into not leaking info about Layfon's deeds.

ipernorris
2009-03-08, 15:01
No, I meant the part regarding how he attempt to murder Garheld. You were thinking that he restrained from killing him but that's not it. It would not really make sense if he did either unless what Layfon was trying to do was scaring Garheld into not leaking info about Layfon's deeds.
No the dude, cicalus, assumed Layfon wanted to murder the blackmailer from how Layfon behaved in the flashback of episode 9 I hope. I'm not referring to any spoiler novel.

Enternal
2009-03-08, 15:05
No the dude, cicalus, assumed Layfon wanted to murder the blackmailer from how Layfon behaved in the flashback of episode 9 I hope. I'm not referring to any spoiler novel.

Oh I see. Nevermind then. Anyway, it sure is crazy how Layfon just decided to kill the guy instead of losing so that Garheld could become a HB. I was just thinking but even if he did decided to lose, I'm sure the other HBs could probably see that something must have been wrong since they are strong fighters as well as they know how Layfon fights right?

ipernorris
2009-03-08, 15:21
Oh I see. Nevermind then. Anyway, it sure is crazy how Layfon just decided to kill the guy instead of losing so that Garheld could become a HB. I was just thinking but even if he did decided to lose, I'm sure the other HBs could probably see that something must have been wrong since they are strong fighters as well as they know how Layfon fights right?
Too bad the head of that SoaB didn't fly... :D

solembum
2009-03-08, 16:06
it is a competiton, people do get hurt and sometimes even die but you are not suppose to delibrately try to maim or kill the opponent. It is still a competition.

What Layfon try to do was to delibrately kill the guy blackmailing him. Under the law of any country and any time period that counts as attempted murder.

The Tenken are basically walking nukes there are no safty controls on them. If a Tenken goes on the rampage only another Tenken or the Queen can stop him.

The reaction to Layfon by the public is essentially our if we learn that our countries Nuke can walk around and decide when to blow up by itself and that there is no safty shutoff device to control the walking Nukes.

Layfon is not wrong either as this world is very unforgivable to the weak only the strongest survive. As someone who is a orphen himself he understands that concept extremely well. That is why he wanted to support the other oprhenages and give the other orphens a chance because no one else was going to do it. For someone like Layfon, laws, honor and pride are something you follow when you can afford to not if you are trying to survive.


hmmm. I did a little "open-minded(or so I say)thinking" :D and remembered the inter-platoon match that they hold at Z. so that pretty much like saying its okay if those students kill each other lol. my bad sorry :(

danin8r44
2009-03-09, 01:05
hmmm. I did a little "open-minded(or so I say)thinking" :D and remembered the inter-platoon match that they hold at Z. so that pretty much like saying its okay if those students kill each other lol. my bad sorry :(

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it felt like the people of Grendan weren't mad at Layfon for attempting to kill in the arena but because he was doing underground fighting while being an HB. Wouldn't this mean that it was pretty much ok to kill in the arena. Besides you can't compare Z to Grendan in the military arts section.:cool:

I think the biggest problem with what Layfon did was to abandon his duty as an HB by doing something HB aren't supposed to do. No military anywhere in the world would let any of their soldiers compete in underground fighting without severe consequences.

Westlo
2009-03-09, 01:45
I think the biggest problem with what Layfon did was to abandon his duty as an HB by doing something HB aren't supposed to do. No military anywhere in the world would let any of their soldiers compete in underground fighting without severe consequences.

bu bu bu b b Layfon had to fight so the kids could eat :rolleyes: You know my biggest problem with this is being a Heaven's Blade must pay fuck all money, he's only trying to feed them not put them through school and university, dress them up in LV and buy them all ballin rides once they can drive :rolleyes:

zibi88
2009-03-09, 03:11
I think the biggest problem with what Layfon did was to abandon his duty as an HB by doing something HB aren't supposed to do. No military anywhere in the world would let any of their soldiers compete in underground fighting without severe consequences.

Well Queen shouldnt abondon her sit and lie to whole city by putting a fake queen (one of the heaven's blades Canalice) simply its not fair ^^

And in Layfon's case I dont see much of bad thing.... since he was fighting monsters and risking his life for sake of protecting the city and its people he was doing what HB should do....... he wanted money for fighting I dont see anything wrong in his case (well he was risking his own life & health after all) since he was giving that money to orphanage in order to give food to the children......... he was doing 2in1 so everyone would be happy (city protected from bugs and poor starving children haveing food to eat).............. but offcourse there had to be stupid bastards who wanted the title by cheating and not throught skill...... and those people destroyed Layfons life in my opinion

Well people got mad becouse Layfon was fighting for money and not for free.....well that kinda placed Layfon in a position of a tool/weapon/item and not human...... since HB is not allowed to do anything except risk life and fight monsters why others are sitting safely on their asses.... and he is not allowed to make any mistakes like normal human does....... they cant understand that no one is perfect and everyone can make mistakes.... (Leerin, Queen and others HB understanded Layfon and dont have any grudge against him....... but becouse of peoples demanding queen had to exile him...)


Anyway cant wait for next episode.... I dont care about what Nina thinks anymore.... since she cant understand Layfon at all.... she is comapreing his situation to her own poor life experiance.... What I care is to know from his point of view, Leerin & Layfon scene, Layfon kicking that monkey girl ass maybe even Gorneo's and seeing that city deer spirit and what's up with that ^^

Eurys
2009-03-09, 03:59
bu bu bu b b Layfon had to fight so the kids could eat :rolleyes: You know my biggest problem with this is being a Heaven's Blade must pay fuck all money, he's only trying to feed them not put them through school and university, dress them up in LV and buy them all ballin rides once they can drive :rolleyes:

Actually, this is answered in the spoiler thread here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2260025&postcount=84) where I asked the question.
This is anime though, I doubt they will properly and extensively address this part. It's not important in the grand scheme of things.

Enternal
2009-03-09, 05:36
Anyway cant wait for next episode.... I dont care about what Nina thinks anymore.... since she cant understand Layfon at all.... she is comapreing his situation to her own poor life experiance.... What I care is to know from his point of view, Leerin & Layfon scene, Layfon kicking that monkey girl ass maybe even Gorneo's and seeing that city deer spirit and what's up with that ^^

Well you should care more because if you haven't notice now, she is developing as a character. The first change that she went through is accepting her weakness against Layfon as well as accepting more of his ideals. Now we have this which will help both her and Layfon develop more. Then....... development in the romantic aspects.. now that I'm sure all the Nina fans will love. However..... Leerin Leerin Leerin!!

willyvereb
2009-03-09, 06:00
Still no subs? I guess it'll become a standard...perhaps at least it's out before the next ep.

zibi88
2009-03-09, 06:37
Well you should care more because if you haven't notice now, she is developing as a character. The first change that she went through is accepting her weakness against Layfon as well as accepting more of his ideals. Now we have this which will help both her and Layfon develop more. Then....... development in the romantic aspects.. now that I'm sure all the Nina fans will love. However..... Leerin Leerin Leerin!!

I'm not Nina's fan......... at the beggining she was interesting character but lately she was in my eyes to much bitchy with that digging in other peoples lifes (if Layfon wanted to talk about he would tell about it himself on right time.......so I assume next questions of her will be are you a virgin, do you have a girlfriend, who leerin is ect. ).... and now I kinda dont care about her development and I kinda dont want to see any romantic development between them ^^

Layfon belongs to Leerin ;] !! (even Feli is much more interesting and fun character to watch than nina [and her constantly changeing mood...] and mostly Feli knows of layfons past becouse of her brother the Ceo.... and is she bitching about it... nope she is allright with that since she kinda knows what he has to go hrought )

I wonder if Leerin would be stronger than Nina.... I mean does that yellow-fox-lion-animal give Leerin any powers ? or is it there only to protect her from harm.... I dont know if that animal is Leerins personal guardian or Grendan city spirit.... (I was wondering about it since what would happen if leerin goes to zerenii.... will that animal tag along or it cant leave Grendan....)

willyvereb
2009-03-09, 06:48
First:
Felli was who almost questioned Layfon about Leerin. And Nina questioned Layfon because it matters in the squads effectivity when the captain can trust the subordinate or not.
Second: Layfon belongs to Layfon actually:P
Third Leerin isn't a military artist so i guess she can't fight, but perhaps the spirit can protect her and probably tags along(or it has not too much meaning).

cynicalicious
2009-03-09, 09:20
So if someone steals your car, then it's cool if they do it for the kids, huh? :D That's nice of you.

solembum
2009-03-09, 10:24
First:
Felli was who almost questioned Layfon about Leerin. And Nina questioned Layfon because it matters in the squads effectivity when the captain can trust the subordinate or not.
Second: Layfon belongs to Layfon actually:P
Third Leerin isn't a military artist so i guess she can't fight, but perhaps the spirit can protect her and probably tags along(or it has not too much meaning).

actually I think she doesn't have the right to question him like that even for the sake of the squads effectiveness. I mean its like she's putting her nose where it doesn't belong. and if its for squad effectivity she could have ask it in a different manner. like ask him if he has a murky past and if he is willing to share that past with his team and if he's not ask him if the said past will have a detrimental effect to their teamwork. with what she did, it look liked he went behind his back so she could learn about his past its more like the question will be if he can trust her.

So if someone steals your car, then it's cool if they do it for the kids, huh? :D That's nice of you.

lol are you referring to what layfon did? I dont think I heard any mention of stealing in the recent episodes. or maybe not :D

Wargumm1i
2009-03-09, 11:07
Oh yeah iv always wanted to ask this, but whats with the totally unrelated scene which lasts 10-30 seconds each episode? its that scene with the spoken very bad english and stuff.

TrueKnight
2009-03-09, 11:17
I think those are scenes from 'Legend of Regios', which supposed to be a prequel from the original CSR. You could see adds related to it pop up several times in the anime's website.

Xellos-_^
2009-03-09, 11:18
Oh yeah iv always wanted to ask this, but whats with the totally unrelated scene which lasts 10-30 seconds each episode? its that scene with the spoken very bad english and stuff.

the little girl form the bad engrish section looks the same as the girl shown in Leerin's eye when the queen was looking into it.

TrueKnight
2009-03-09, 11:24
^ I cross-checked episodes with Leerin and the Queen interacting (ep 3, 8 and 9) and you're right, it did show up at the start of ep 3. Good finding heh. So Leerin's perhaps the descendant or reincarnation or chosen one or whatever of the original bearer of kei or nen-I eh? Interesting.

Cox
2009-03-09, 17:04
Still no subs? I guess it'll become a standard...perhaps at least it's out before the next ep.

Maybe Taka will catch up...

gonzo562
2009-03-09, 18:41
Maybe Taka will catch up...

the subs usually dont come out till mid week

Vash002
2009-03-10, 03:21
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
No Legend of Regios engrish flashback, pure rage.
Am I the only one that likes that and rather see a whole episode (or OVA) instead of present Regios? :uhoh:

TrueKnight
2009-03-10, 05:06
I admit this is the first time I've seen anyone actually interested in the crappy Engrish.

No sub yet...I'm in a state of absolute despair..

MrTerrorist
2009-03-10, 06:14
Please Ayako, release those subs, i can't wait anymore. (In a related note, i want them to release the latest minami-ke subs too.)

Wargumm1i
2009-03-10, 06:22
Please Ayako, release those subs, i can't wait anymore. (In a related note, i want them to release the latest minami-ke subs too.)

Agreed :D I cant remember the last time I was so excited to get an episode out since Code Geass.

To me Regios is the new Code Geass, even if they hold no relation whats-o-ever, still Im getting the same addiction too Regios the same i got too Code Geass :D

TrueKnight
2009-03-10, 11:16
Regios has poisoned and made me an addict since episode 2. Main attractions of Regios (for males at least) -> ultra powerful and badass male lead surrounded by handful of hot and cute chicks with likeable personalities and almost of them are interested in the male lead. Yeah, those gotta be it. Honorable mention to Felli's frills.

God, I need sub.

TrueKnight
2009-03-10, 11:17
You Punks!! The Subs is out! Get it NAO!

Thank you Ayako! :D

EDIT 1: lol wtf already 200 peers but no single seed?

EDIT 2: seeds in, time to leech.

zibi88
2009-03-10, 12:27
couldnt you edit your last post and add new lines than create new post.... and it looks like double post now.....

Those who are huge fans of Reios already know that subs are out ;P

MrTerrorist
2009-03-10, 13:02
Finally! Now i just have too wait.

Cox
2009-03-10, 14:08
Finally!!! My gosh have to wait forever to see this episode O_O

Manji Midou
2009-03-10, 14:46
what a worthless, disgusting loli felli is...so the reason she punches him in the leg is because he hasn't mentioned leerin to her? :frustrated:
l didn't know layfon is obligated to tell her every personal detail of his life.
l wonder what type of relationship that worthless loli think she has with layfon?
and....oh nina you sure like to over react to everything....clearly the saving grace of this ep was leerin...
mei has vanished.....:(

manga852
2009-03-10, 14:50
so the sportsman is criticizing the elite veteran warrior about his life view, guess she thinks she's his sempia. wonder if fon fon wants be in the platoon now, either way I don't think the president will let him get kicked out considering all the effort he put into getting him on the squad.

Bonta Kun
2009-03-10, 14:55
Well I for one don't see Fon-Fon way of thinking as in the wrong, yea maybe he could have dealt with it all a wee bit better but then I'm guessing he was pretty much alone in the matter.

Well at least Nina doesn't deny his way of thinking, good to know she came to terms with that. If she had did so outright, I'd take a somewhat dislike to her character as a whole. Its a pretty dog eat dog world they live in and doing what ever it takes to stay live is a pretty good mindset.

also I really like the fact Fon-Fon isn't one of the justice and moral righteousness big mouths that gives them big ass speeches and tries to shove it down everyones throat or tries to correct people who have wandered to the dark side.....but then that type of character probably doesn't suit the setting, thank god!;)


also "5 POINTS!":heh:

Tjaard
2009-03-10, 15:13
Well, i skipped 7 page of useless post, now probably we can comment quietly this episode.
Now we know because Gorneo hate Layfon, but i think that he don't know the real personality of Gahard, because for me Gahard was only a weak jealous, as Savaris told, and this make me thinking that Gorneo really doesn't understand the true power of a HB or his brother.
After Nina gets angry again for Layfon's behavior, that goes contrary to her way of thinking, another time, Nina probably growing with a noble family can't understand this, but this for me make the platoon relationship very amusing :heh:
After we see win another time against the monkey loli :D And the Evil guys with strange mask, that probably come for the E.Fairy of this place.
We see an awesome Savaris, that surely this time kick the ass of this useless being, and i begin to like this chara xDD
Queen grope as always and we see the strange creature into Leerin, and the decision of Layfon for gain money for the orphanage.
At the end we see Felli sweet talk with layfon, until Nina arrives :D
For the preview we see another awesome attack of Layfon and the 5th platoon in danger (finally) lol

fatez
2009-03-10, 15:46
After watching this episode, the only way Nina can redeem herself, if she dies!!! Well, not to that extreme, but she must face an ordeal equivalent to Layfon, and get the stupid idealistic way of thinking out of her. I can not sympathize with her in anyway. Strange too, the first 8 episodes, i actually liked her character.

willyvereb
2009-03-10, 16:10
Lol...you're a way too objective. Easy to think that in a general way, but remember you can make that decision easy because you know that Layfon's not gonna betray the squad just for his survival...
Nina's way of thinking somehow "selfless and noble"(moreover idealistic), because she had less experience about the world(it's sounds somewhat funny but she's a way too kind compared to the world) and perhaps she's always serious, so she's serious about the wellfare of the platoon. And if she can't trust Layfon then it can cause problems for the platoon. I think she needs some time to think it out. It's a new kind of revelation for her about Layfon so it's currently shadows her thoughts about him. I guess it's sloved at the end of ep 10.
Anyways...she's less demanding than a certain short, but long-haired person:P.
She actually demanded to tell her everything. She's quite agressive in terms of privacy. Nina at least remained silent about it(the letter and Leerin)

Vash002
2009-03-10, 16:12
I admit this is the first time I've seen anyone actually interested in the crappy Engrish.

No sub yet...I'm in a state of absolute despair..
I don't know, but I like more to see a badass shooting what appears to be mutants from the roof of his car with an awesome art style than Layfol and friends morals discussion (I also blame the lack of Mei) :heh:

Gah, Ayako and his .avi
I'll wait for Whatever's .mkv

Xellos-_^
2009-03-10, 17:12
my respect for Servais grows even more with that little speech of his about the ants and how he is grateful he is one of the strong. I think that really is the main difference between a HB and a regular military artist. A HB is willing even to the point of throwing away thier humanity to be strong but a regular military artist is still human.

Enternal
2009-03-10, 17:12
so the sportsman is criticizing the elite veteran warrior about his life view, guess she thinks she's his sempia. wonder if fon fon wants be in the platoon now, either way I don't think the president will let him get kicked out considering all the effort he put into getting him on the squad.

Why? Because all elite veteran warriors are right? Of course not. Nina has her points that make sense and so does Layfon.

Anyway, seriously this show is actually addicting. The great thing about this show is that the cliffhanger are mild which makes you want to watch the next episode but it's not so overly which makes it frustrating. I sign up for an account here at Animesuki back in 2005 but I was not really active and mostly was just a lurker. However, this series freakin made me post so much here. It's a dangerous show in wrong hands :heh:

holyman282
2009-03-10, 17:22
Man this ep was awesome. We got some really nice fellixLayfon moments and finally Nina realises how damn strong Layfon is, but is she surprised? No! Instead she goes all emotional and complain about his moral ideals. The thing I've noticed throughout 9 ep is that whenever Nina's realisation of Layfon's strength increases instead of being grateful that a strong person is in her platoon she instead tries to push them away.

Enternal
2009-03-10, 17:57
Man this ep was awesome. We got some really nice fellixLayfon moments and finally Nina realises how damn strong Layfon is, but is she surprised? No! Instead she goes all emotional and complain about his moral ideals. The thing I've noticed throughout 9 ep is that whenever Nina's realisation of Layfon's strength increases instead of being grateful that a strong person is in her platoon she instead tries to push them away.

With the Nina hate around, seems like people can't think without being biased now. Let say that someone in my platoon is found out that in his past, he did some shady or perhaps illegal stuff and when someone threatened to leak it out (even if he was being blackmailed), he was willing to kill the guy. You know what I would think? I don't care how strong he is but I would be worried about my platoon because what if he decided that he needs to survive and thus betray and harm the platoon? So I rather not have him in my platoon. Why would I be grateful to some one who may be super strong but choose to kill people without hesitation?

Of course, in this series, he and Nina will come to more of an understanding of each other but until then, there is going to be kinks in the road.

TrueKnight
2009-03-10, 18:03
So what we've seen from the Heaven Blades so far:

- Layfon: willing to be 'evil' in order to make the people he cared 'happy', which in this case he considered in order to 'survive' and 'live' -> Participating in underground fights and intending to kill Gahard using a spar match as cover, violating the rules of Heaven Blades as bodyguards of the Queen.
- Savaris: Saw and thank himself for being strong, powerful, gifted Heaven Blade and and considers weaklings as 'ants', so it's perfectly okay to these 'ants' die because of their weakness, which includes his younger bro's 'mentor' in a cruel way.

Oh, Heaven Blades and their egos and rather twisted way of thinkings.

*waives Fon-fon x Felli flag*

Tyrone Biggums
2009-03-10, 18:13
So wait...Layfon was fighting for money for what reason? To supply the orphanage with money? Food? They need to go more into that...

Nina needs a reality check, there's more to life then honor and so on. Now she wants him out of the platoon...I'm pretty sure he didn't want to join it to begin with.

And I don't get why Gorneo was calling Layfon a coward...did he run away from something?

Fevvers
2009-03-10, 18:15
With the Nina hate around, seems like people can't think with being biased now.

Well, you know how it is. When it's Felli being irrationally nosy (the letter and Leerin), it's 'KAWAAAII DESUUU' and when it's Layfon who shows he's not quite as on the right, he's 'OMG BADASS'. Double standards, how quaint. :rolleyes:

Xellos-_^
2009-03-10, 18:17
So wait...Layfon was fighting for money for what reason? To supply the orphanage with money? Food? They need to go more into that...

Nina needs a reality check, there's more to life then honor and so on. Now she wants him out of the platoon...I'm pretty sure he didn't want to join it to begin with.

And I don't get why Gorneo was calling Layfon a coward...did he run away from something?

the anime gloss over it as it was only mention briefly.

Layfon try to kill the guy who was blackmailing him over the illegal fighting

Enternal
2009-03-10, 18:22
So wait...Layfon was fighting for money for what reason? To supply the orphanage with money? Food? They need to go more into that...

They really do because the anime still haven't been clear about that. He needs money really badly so that he could live in the orphanage... needs to be more clear.

So what we've seen from the Heaven Blades so far:

- Layfon: willing to be 'evil' in order to make the people he cared 'happy', which in this case he considered in order to 'survive' and 'live' -> Participating in underground fights and intending to kill Gahard using a spar match as cover, violating the rules of Heaven Blades as bodyguards of the Queen.
- Savaris: Saw and thank himself for being strong, powerful, gifted Heaven Blade and and considers weaklings as 'ants', so it's perfectly okay to these 'ants' die because of their weakness, which includes his younger bro's 'mentor' in a cruel way.

Oh, Heaven Blades and their egos and rather twisted way of thinkings.

*waives Fon-fon x Felli flag*

*grab flag once again and hid it somewhere*

Anyway, no kidding it seems like the Heaven Bladers are rather twisted and scary in their way of thinking although we don't know for sure yet since we only know Layfon's and Savaris way of thinking so far. Personally, I think the reason why both Layfon and Savaris are like rivals probably due to their somewhat twisted way of thinking although both makes sense in a way but it's kind of scary.

DragoZERO
2009-03-10, 18:23
I was a tad disappointed. Underground fighting for money? They could have come up with something better than that. At least we learned more about Leerin this episode. And, we saw that Felli isn't a flat loli :heh:

Xellos-_^
2009-03-10, 18:32
They really do because the anime still haven't been clear about that. He needs money really badly so that he could live in the orphanage... needs to be more clear.



*grab flag once again and hid it somewhere*

*takes Flag and raise it again

Anyway, no kidding it seems like the Heaven Bladers are rather twisted and scary in their way of thinking although we don't know for sure yet since we only know Layfon's and Savaris way of thinking so far.

in one of the earlier eps, Layfon said he was this strong becuase when he was training he stop thinking of himself as human. Considering that Lintence, one of the other HB train him as well. I think the other HB probably holds similar views in regards to themselves and strength.

Personally, I think the reason why both Layfon and Savaris are like rivals probably due to their somewhat twisted way of thinking although both makes sense in a way but it's kind of scary.in the world they live in it makes scary sense. Kinda strange that Borneo and his brother have such different view points. Borneo's view is actually closer to Nina's viewpoint then to Sarvais.

I was a tad disappointed. Underground fighting for money? They could have come up with something better than that. At least we learned more about Leerin this episode. And, we saw that Felli isn't a flat loli :heh:

the anime is glossing over things as there are more to it then just illegal underground fighting.

Tjaard
2009-03-10, 18:34
So what we've seen from the Heaven Blades so far:

- Layfon: willing to be 'evil' in order to make the people he cared 'happy', which in this case he considered in order to 'survive' and 'live' -> Participating in underground fights and intending to kill Gahard using a spar match as cover, violating the rules of Heaven Blades as bodyguards of the Queen.
- Savaris: Saw and thank himself for being strong, powerful, gifted Heaven Blade and and considers weaklings as 'ants', so it's perfectly okay to these 'ants' die because of their weakness, which includes his younger bro's 'mentor' in a cruel way.

Oh, Heaven Blades and their egos and rather twisted way of thinkings.

*waives Fon-fon x Felli flag*

Well, except for someone, probably all HB have their reason for fight, i don't think that they care of the importance or pride of Military Arts or HB's title, and surely we prefer this that someone with "All for love and justice" :D
But after the speaking of Savaris i started to think that all HB have since the birth power above the normal people (and after trained for control and improve it), so become an HB is impossible only with training :confused:

Xellos-_^
2009-03-10, 18:37
Well, except for someone, probably all HB have their reason for fight, i don't think that they care of the importance or pride of Military Arts or HB's title, and surely we prefer this that someone with "All for love and justice" :D
But after the speaking of Savaris i started to think that all HB have since the birth power above the normal people (and after trained for control and improve it), so become an HB is impossible only with training :confused:

it is call potiential, no matter how much potiential you have you still need to train and the HB train themselves like monsters to get to where they are level wise.

honeypie_0106
2009-03-10, 18:41
Savaris is cool! One of my favorite characters. Strong, mean, and hot!

Leerin was great!

The 17th platoon is all emo, but on Grendan, everyone was kicking ass. Seriously, the girls - Nina and Felli - should just try and get along with Layfon, they keep going all emo! It sucks!

And I didn't see any Nina x Layfon or Felli x Layfon in this episode, so I hope those shippers stop over-reacting.

Enternal
2009-03-10, 18:42
it is call potiential, no matter who much potiential you have you still need to train and the HB train themselves like monsters to get to where they are level wise.

Exactly. Like a ball on top of a very very high hill. It has a amount of potential but it won't go anywhere unless it moves. Oooh, I sound so smart.... hahaha :heh:

Tjaard
2009-03-10, 18:54
it is call potiential, no matter how much potiential you have you still need to train and the HB train themselves like monsters to get to where they are level wise.
Yeah but this mean that if you don't have that potential (surely abnormal), you can't become HB even if you train like a madman, this explains why many people of Grendan, as Gahard, probably hate Layfon (young and with an awesome potential) :)

Master Assassin
2009-03-10, 19:12
And, we saw that Felli isn't a flat loli :heh:

And from somewhere I remember this quote: "A loli with big breasts is cheating."

Although Felli's not that big, but that kinda helps me confirm she's not a loli (in my jurisdictions) :heh:

Wait, I already knew that before you said it! :O

danin8r44
2009-03-10, 19:32
And from somewhere I remember this quote: "A loli with big breasts is cheating."

Although Felli's not that big, but that kinda helps me confirm she's not a loli (in my jurisdictions) :heh:

Wait, I already knew that before you said it! :O

Hahaha where did you get that quote?
I agree though Felli doesn't feel loli. She feels more like a doll.... with Frills!

On another note, after finally seeing a translation for Savaris' speech (a part i couldn't understand well before) I have come to the conclusion that he is made of awesome and elitism.:D

TrueKnight
2009-03-10, 19:39
^ I believe he got that from 'Omamori Himari', also a decent harem show but still in manga version. But he forgot to add the '-nano'.

this explains why many people of Grendan, as Gahard, probably hate Layfon (young and with an awesome potential)

He bitched about Heaven Blades being given to a kid, well Savaris said it best ‘dude, it’s cuz yer weak, and Layfon and I'm liek strong so you can die, kay?.’

And I didn't see any Nina x Layfon or Felli x Layfon in this episode, so I hope those shippers stop over-reacting.

She's being fussy about what relation Layfon had with other girls because she likes him. But she didn't care less about his 'ideals', so that puts her on league with Leerin at least in terms of accepting who or what Layfon really is. Felli that is, forgot to add.

Edit: typo

aliasxn
2009-03-10, 19:51
Best episode so far!!! The Heaven Blades kick so much ass it's not even funny!!

And lol at Nina kicking Layfon out! What is she thinking? He IS the platoon, they are all just riding his coattails, they would've been dissolved already if it weren't for him. Hell, they would be dead if it weren't for him, twice.

Wargumm1i
2009-03-10, 20:26
Okei so Felli knew his past and knew he was a Heavens blade?

Xellos-_^
2009-03-10, 20:28
she has access to her brothers files

PNGO
2009-03-10, 20:51
Finally some REAL development!

DragoZERO
2009-03-10, 20:53
And from somewhere I remember this quote: "A loli with big breasts is cheating."

Although Felli's not that big, but that kinda helps me confirm she's not a loli (in my jurisdictions) :heh:

Wait, I already knew that before you said it! :O
haha. Perhaps I should have said she isn't a loli at all.

Tjaard
2009-03-10, 21:08
she has access to her brothers files

But that's on Missing Mail, here i think that her is a worldwide eavesdropper :D
Probably she has heard what Gorneo and Nina said, because on the anime no hint of her know the past of Layfon, for now:heh:

TrueKnight
2009-03-10, 21:28
Hmm you got a point. We know for sure that she knew something about Layfon's past being in Grendan (aside from Leerin), but so far be we don't know what. Yeah based on the anime.

However we also know that she has this very bad habit called 'eaves-dropping'. So added with fact that she's a talented nen-i which capable overhearing people talking miles away, and her obsession and curiousity to know what Fon-fon's talking about and with who perhaps all the time, so she probably knew. Yeah probably :/.

justinstrife
2009-03-10, 21:42
Best episode so far!!! The Heaven Blades kick so much ass it's not even funny!!

And lol at Nina kicking Layfon out! What is she thinking? He IS the platoon, they are all just riding his coattails, they would've been dissolved already if it weren't for him. Hell, they would be dead if it weren't for him, twice.

Good thing I wasn't Fon-Fon at the end of this episode when she said they couldn't be in the same platoon.

My response,"That's okay. I don't like fighting alongside the weak and spoiled war-gamers anyway."

He should just be his own damn platoon and they can pick up the table scraps from his missions.

Xellos-_^
2009-03-10, 21:45
Good thing I wasn't Fon-Fon at the end of this episode when she said they couldn't be in the same platoon.

My response,"That's okay. I don't like fighting alongside the weak and spoiled war-gamers anyway."

He should just be his own damn platoon and they can pick up the table scraps from his missions.

a two person duo between him and feili would be enough.

Ryu-kun
2009-03-10, 22:05
Loved this episode finally we getting somewhere in development : P

Wargumm1i
2009-03-10, 22:17
Loved this episode finally we getting somewhere in development : P

You said it :D I wonder what will happen next :D the preview for ep 10 didint really leave much of a picture except Layfon and Gorneo or the cat girl fighting.

boss
2009-03-10, 23:22
Finally subs.

Damn... and before you know it the credits are rolling, i wish they made this an hour long or something :p

Hao
2009-03-10, 23:36
Really... how much money does a guy need to live in an orphanage!? He's a HB, the top dogs in military arts, shouldn't he have been flowing with money? There has to be a better reason than just that -o-

Well w/e maybe Fon-Fon is just a badass
+1 000 000 points!

Enternal
2009-03-10, 23:39
Really... how much money does a guy need to live in an orphanage!? He's a HB, the top dogs in military arts, shouldn't he have been flowing with money? There has to be a better reason than just that -o-

Well w/e maybe Fon-Fon is just a badass
+1 000 000 points!

Heaven Bladers don't exactly make that much money. But exactly how much does he need? Hope they are clearer on that.

Traece
2009-03-11, 00:13
This episode was interesting just for the development. I never thought much of Leerin before but I'm actually enjoying seeing her now oddly enough.

The high point of this episode though was obviously Felli. She's too adorable in this episode, getting some romantic time with her FonFon. Seems like she's coming to terms with her attraction to him. Even showing a hint of jealousy over the whole Leerin thing!

Edit: By the way, catgirl is a disgrace to kittens everywhere. I feel sorry for her companion. :( I'm not enjoying her, she's just too much of a moron. But we get some nice Felli moments from her!

Clarste
2009-03-11, 00:51
Obviously no one really cares about the fact that Layfon was fighting in an underground tournament, although it may have been technically illegal. Not even Gorneo, who hates him, cares about that part. That's not the important part, and the episode made that fairly clear.

The important part is that he attacked someone who would have revealed it, in a way that left a permanent disability. Rather than just being willing to break the law for survival (I'll just take his word for it that fighting in the tournament was the best option and that he needed the money for food or whatever), he's willing to kill his allies in order to survive (a candidate for Heaven's Blade Receiver is certainly a decently strong ally against the bugs). It's completely obvious why Nina can no longer trust him.

While it may seem obvious to us, the audience, that would never do that (presumably she's one of the people he would do anything to help survive, if anything), it's not obvious at all from her perspective. He's been uncooperative all this time, and to top it off has been hiding important details from her. She can't trust him, and now knowing that he basically has no morality whatsoever when pushed refuses to be on the same team as him. Which makes sense.

manga852
2009-03-11, 01:00
what details has he been hiding

Clarste
2009-03-11, 01:15
what details has he been hiding

Well, everything? He's never told them anything, starting from episode 1. From his point of view its a past he wants to distance himself from, but from her point of view it looks like he doesn't trust her.

black_cat1
2009-03-11, 01:18
Fon Fon and her are not have any deep relationship to tell about secret with each other. So what the matter with it?

Clarste
2009-03-11, 01:20
Fon Fon and her are not have any deep relationship to tell about secret with each other. So what the matter with it?

Cause he's her teammate. They're entrusting their lives to each other. Hiding your power from your allies is... well... Anyway, that's exactly my point. They aren't in any deep relationship, so once she knows that he will do anything to survive and is willing to kill allies he's not particular close to, why would she want to be an ally that he's not particularly close to? She can't trust him, and has reason to believe that he's dangerous to people he doesn't trust.

black_cat1
2009-03-11, 01:23
Cause he's her teammate. They're entrusting their lives to each other. Anyway, that's exactly my point. They aren't in any deep relationship, so once she knows that he will do anything to survive and is willing to kill allies he's not particular close to, why would she want to be an ally that he's not particularly close to? She can't trust him, and has reason to believe that he's dangerous to people he doesn't trust
Be a teammate doesnt mean u can have a right to know about another's secret. And Fon Fon tried to kill the bitch because he blackmailed Fon Fon to take the title HB, that bitch had never been Fon Fon ally, dont mistake.

justinstrife
2009-03-11, 02:12
a two person duo between him and feili would be enough.

I could go along with that. She's already proven to be a valuable ally in his fights(and I love their interactions :heh: ).

Be a teammate doesnt mean u can have a right to know about another's secret. And Fon Fon tried to kill the bitch because he blackmailed Fon Fon to take the title HB, that bitch had never been Fon Fon ally, dont mistake.

+1. Just because they are teammates does not give Nina instant access to Layfon's past history. That's just not how things work.

jennkei
2009-03-11, 02:17
Whoa, so many posts already! Even though I'd watched it a day or so ago (http://booksanime.today.com/2009/03/09/koukaku-no-regios-9-no-bra-and-bug-man/)..-wry-

I wonder what was up with Shante going berserk...and yeah, that money thing made me go ._. Savaris is definitely cool, though.

justinstrife
2009-03-11, 02:19
On a side note, why oh why do people hide when they give negative rep points? It just shows how petty some people really are. Put your name out so I know who's disagreeing with me. And calling my one line about Nina's manipulation as unnecessary, especially when it's the truth, shows me you haven't been paying attention to the show.

Clarste
2009-03-11, 02:20
+1. Just because they are teammates does not give Nina instant access to Layfon's past history. That's just not how things work.

I never said it did. I was talking about his skills. Which is obviously important to the team. That's important information.

The fact that he didn't share his past simply means that they're not very close. Which means that Nina can't trust him with her back, since he's explicitly said that he'll do anything to survive, including maiming his allies (they were on the same "team"... against the bugs. Remember the bugs? Maiming candidates for HB means he just took away a potentially significant fighter).

justinstrife
2009-03-11, 02:30
I never said it did. I was talking about his skills. Which is obviously important to the team. That's important information.

The fact that he didn't share his past simply means that they're not very close. Which means that Nina can't trust him with her back, since he's explicitly said that he'll do anything to survive, including maiming his allies (they were on the same "team"... against the bugs. Remember the bugs? Maiming candidates for HB means he just took away a potentially significant fighter).

He's also proven with his actions that he's willing to defend others.

Examples being, the girl in episode 1, Nina in the first inter-platoon match, Nina against the larvae, goes outside without protection and kills the mother, and goes out by himself to take on the one maturing bug while the city was leaving him behind.

He's already proven not only his combat abilities, but his willingness to help others, even though it doesn't benefit him or his 'survival'. She hears what someone else who she doesn't know or fight alongside has to say, and automatically takes his side without pausing to think that MAYBE Layfon had a reason. :rolleyes:

I'll say it again. She doesn't think they can be in the same platoon together? Fine. He'll be just fine without her and her spoiled views.

panpo98
2009-03-11, 02:32
So what we've seen from the Heaven Blades so far:

- Layfon: willing to be 'evil' in order to make the people he cared 'happy', which in this case he considered in order to 'survive' and 'live' -> Participating in underground fights and intending to kill Gahard using a spar match as cover, violating the rules of Heaven Blades as bodyguards of the Queen.
- Savaris: Saw and thank himself for being strong, powerful, gifted Heaven Blade and and considers weaklings as 'ants', so it's perfectly okay to these 'ants' die because of their weakness, which includes his younger bro's 'mentor' in a cruel way.

Oh, Heaven Blades and their egos and rather twisted way of thinkings.

*waives Fon-fon x Felli flag*
Most people seem to ignore what was said by Gahard before Savaris killed him. Gahard was one of the 12 HB before Layfon defeated him and took his place as a HB then Layfon was 10.

With that you can conclude that Gahard wanted his place pack among the HB. Not to mention revenge on Layfon who to it from him. That Gahard choose the threaten to reveal the truth seems to be only half the mater. He probably wanted Layfon to lose that last match on purpose. Blackmail is a crime if you didn't know and people doesn't like cheaters ether. That criminal Gahard got what he deserved. Did you know that cutting of someones right hand is still used i some third world countries for stealing.

There is still no prof that Layfon tried to kill Gahard. Not even Gorneo belive that. Gorneo is angry that Layfon crippled his friend and is likely in denial, blaming everything on Layfon alone and ignoring his friends crimes.

panpo98
2009-03-11, 02:49
So what we've seen from the Heaven Blades so far:

- Layfon: willing to be 'evil' in order to make the people he cared 'happy', which in this case he considered in order to 'survive' and 'live' -> Participating in underground fights and intending to kill Gahard using a spar match as cover, violating the rules of Heaven Blades as bodyguards of the Queen.
- Savaris: Saw and thank himself for being strong, powerful, gifted Heaven Blade and and considers weaklings as 'ants', so it's perfectly okay to these 'ants' die because of their weakness, which includes his younger bro's 'mentor' in a cruel way.

Oh, Heaven Blades and their egos and rather twisted way of thinkings.

*waives Fon-fon x Felli flag*
Most people seem to ignore what was said by Gahard before Savaris killed him. Gahard was one of the 12 HB before Layfon defeated him and took his place as a HB then Layfon was 10.


With that you can conclude that Gahard wanted his place pack among the HB. Not to mention revenge on Layfon who to it from him. That Gahard choose the threaten to reveal the truth seems to be only half the mater. He probably wanted Layfon to lose that last match on purpose. Blackmail is a crime if you didn't know and people doesn't like cheaters ether. That criminal Gahard got what he deserved. Did you know that cutting of someones right hand is still used i some third world countries for stealing.

There is still no prof that Layfon tried to kill Gahard. Not even Gorneo belive that. Gorneo is angry that Layfon crippled his friend and is likely in denial, blaming everything on Layfon alone and ignoring his friends crimes.


Nian, what can I say about her. You want to kick Layfon out. Go ahead. Layfon never wanted to be in your platoon. He will still be a military artist like the president wanted and he can still protect Zuellni with Felli. Neither of them cares if Nina kicks them out. The president will probably say that he disband her platoon while she is at it. Besides, Nina is not better morally than Layfon. Look what she was willing to sacrifices to win = protect Zuellni. She think it is OK if every single Military artist around her dies as long as she win (bug invasion episode). She sure wasn't giving them any strategy to fight the bugs beyond trowing themselves in the bus mouths. Her thinking it is just as bad as she think about Layfon's.

Something nice about Nina. She is right that there should be limits to what you are willing to do. But I am sure that she still hasn't got the whole picture. Layfon sure isn't in any hurry to clear up any misunderstanding that Nina have. What he thinks doesn't seem to be the same think as what he say to Nina (not the whole truth anyway). Using word that make it sound worse possible. It cause Nina to constantly to jump to conclusion over and over again so far. I'm sure the will change her mind again in the next episode.

Clarste
2009-03-11, 03:00
He's also proven with his actions that he's willing to defend others.

Examples being, the girl in episode 1, Nina in the first inter-platoon match, Nina against the larvae, goes outside without protection and kills the mother, and goes out by himself to take on the one maturing bug while the city was leaving him behind.

He's already proven not only his combat abilities, but his willingness to help others, even though it doesn't benefit him or his 'survival'. She hears what someone else who she doesn't know or fight alongside has to say, and automatically takes his side without pausing to think that MAYBE Layfon had a reason. :rolleyes:

I'll say it again. She doesn't think they can be in the same platoon together? Fine. He'll be just fine without her and her spoiled views.

Only the last example really proves anything, because all the others came at no cost to his own survival. You could argue that that example alone is enough to make Nina look foolish, and I wouldn't disagree.

However, I do disagree that she overreacted to Gorneo. After that conversion, she went and talked to Layfon directly before deciding anything. Upon hearing his philosophy, she made a logical decision (although ignored some evidence that might have been relevant). The point is that she talked to him. She didn't make assumptions about him, she talked to him. I'm not even sure she cares about his past, only about his philosophy, which she specifically did not deny.

Most people seem to ignore what was said by Gahard before Savaris killed him. Gahard was one of the 12 HB before Layfon defeated him and took his place as a HB then Layfon was 10.

With that you can conclude that Gahard wanted his place pack among the HB. Not to mention revenge on Layfon who to it from him. That Gahard choose the threaten to reveal the truth seems to be only half the mater. He probably wanted Layfon to lose that last match on purpose. Blackmail is a crime if you didn't know and people doesn't like cheaters ether. That criminal Gahard got what he deserved. Did you know that cutting of someones right hand is still used i some third world countries for stealing.

There is still no prof that Layfon tried to kill Gahard. Not even Gorneo belive that. Gorneo is angry that Layfon crippled his friend and is likely in denial, blaming everything on Layfon alone and ignoring his friends crimes.

As a former HB, Gahard is a valuable fighter. Even if he's below actual HB level, he's still someone who'd be helpful against the bugs. Taking away his fighting ability for personal reasons is equivalent for treason against the city, and doing so for money even moreso. If he came clean he could have resolved the issue officially and left Grendan's fighting power intact. He chose to take the matter into his own hands for purely selfish reasons.

I'm not saying he's a horrible person, but given that history its easy to see why people wouldn't trust him. He simply values himself (and those close to him) more than others. If you're not sure whether or not you're "close to him" he's a liability if the situation ever gets rough. Apparently he's starting to take the city of Zuellni under his wing of "things to protect" but the only person who knows that for sure is Felli.

danin8r44
2009-03-11, 03:38
I never said it did. I was talking about his skills. Which is obviously important to the team. That's important information.

The fact that he didn't share his past simply means that they're not very close. Which means that Nina can't trust him with her back, since he's explicitly said that he'll do anything to survive, including maiming his allies (they were on the same "team"... against the bugs. Remember the bugs? Maiming candidates for HB means he just took away a potentially significant fighter).

What we see from Layfon is a strong desire to protect what he wants to protect and a will to crush anything that threatens it. This kind of thinking isn't odd for someone who had a hard life when they were very little. However, this does not mean that he is unreliable in battle. Quite the contrary, this type of personality is much better suited for a warrior than a strong idealsim similar to the one which Nina posesses. It says that as a subordinate he will carry out his mission without being held back by moral dilemas, and that he will not betray you as long as you don't threaten what he needs to protect (which should be near impossible as a military exists to protect the state and he protected Zuellini meaning there is no conflict in what he and the military wish to protect). This (and his godlike strength) mean that he is perfectly suited for any platoon.

Admittedly, his participation in underground fighting does break with his duty as a military man in favor of the orphanage. Yet, because of the orphanage he was arguably less likely than any of the other HB to maim an ally or to betray anyone because this could have reprecussions for the orphanage.

The "maiming of allies" is taken out of context. Layfon maimed a man in a contest where (by all I've seen) maiming a man is perfectly legal. The man he injured could not be considered an ally in any real context anyway, as he was entirely motivated by selfish desires to get the HB and not by any real desire to protect the people of the city (of everyone in CSR so far he was by far the most likely to betray and maim allies without provocation). Layfon has shown again and again that his allies are many, many times safer with him at their back than him not there at all.

Thus Nina's decision to remove Layfon from her team is either based on an idea that is inherently incorrect, or a selfish desire to remove a person who's ideals differ from hers from her presence so that her own ideals won't get shattered (ie. when she learned how futile and pointless the dead city's "victory" was).

Hurray for long posts :D and again im not hating Nina or trying to defend Layfon to my last breath. Just putting up some thoughts that crossed my mind.:heh:

Master Assassin
2009-03-11, 03:55
Finally got to watch ep 9 and I realized something at the end.

That line of Nina ("We shouldn't be in the same platoon"), I don't think she's going to literally mean it.

I take it as a precursor of more insights to come, and kicking Layfon out of the team would be properly implausible and very insensible even to Nina herself no matter how she thinks she should do it... because reasons are there.

Clarste
2009-03-11, 04:03
Hurray for long posts :D and again im not hating Nina or trying to defend Layfon to my last breath. Just putting up some thoughts that crossed my mind.:heh:

I'm kinda the same way: I'm trying to look at it from Nina's perspective. I just didn't like all the Nina hate going around in the thread and tried to show why it's not unreasonable for her to do what she's doing. I also don't think there's any "hidden" evidence which would change her opinion on the situation. It's not simply a misunderstanding, and she's not jumping to conclusions. She's not entirely right either, but I don't think she's being an idiot or anything like that.

TrueKnight
2009-03-11, 04:07
I’ve posted this kind of thing in another thread but I’ll post it again.

What parts of Layfon were considered ‘uncooperative’? In terms of professionalism so far he did his job properly within Zuellni’s jurisdiction as a platoon member. He asked Felli for help in episode 5 for surveillance, he trusted Nina enough for her to act as bait in episode 7, he followed his orders well in episode well to let himself act as bait. He did his job. I could not find any proof that Layfon didn’t do his duties as platoon member that could be considered as ‘uncooperative’.

The issues regarding his ‘crimes’ here are where did this happen? His ‘crimes’ were conducted in Grendan. When? It’s in the past. Why did he do it? He did those to help his orphanage Was he wrong? Yes, he was considered wrong within Grendan and guilty as charged, and he already received his punishment, which was a complete exile.

Now he venture to a new city to start a new life. Within Zuellni, no Grendan anymore, different set of rules and conducts. Things went well and he’s being a good kid when suddenly some idiot revealed his past ‘crimes’. Then our squad captain here Nina decides bring it up front and blame him for misconduct of which he had been punished.

Professionally and normally Layfon did nothing wrong while he’s in Zuellni. The questions here actually are his moral stands, he maintain the very same mindset he has from Grendan.

Wargumm1i
2009-03-11, 04:10
Finally got to watch ep 9 and I realized something at the end.

That line of Nina ("We shouldn't be in the same platoon"), I don't think she's going to literally mean it.

I take it as a precursor of more insights to come, and kicking Layfon out of the team would be properly implausible and very insensible even to Nina herself no matter how she thinks she should do it... because reasons are there.

Lol indeed, even if Nina doesnt share Layfon´s way of thinking, that isint enough to kick him off the team.

I mean even if its her, the others including Felli would not stand for it. I mean im even forseeing Felli leaving the platoon with Layfon.

Still if and when Layfon leaves the Platoon, all the others platoons will be all over him lol.

I’ve posted this kind of thing in another thread but I’ll post it again.

What parts of Layfon were considered ‘uncooperative’? In terms of professionalism so far he did his job properly within Zuellni’s jurisdiction as a platoon member. He asked Felli for help in episode 5 for surveillance, he trusted Nina enough for her to act as bait in episode 7, he followed his orders well in episode well to let himself act as bait. He did his job. I could not find any proof that Layfon didn’t do his duties as platoon member that could be considered as ‘uncooperative’.

The issues regarding his ‘crimes’ here are where did this happen? His ‘crimes’ were conducted in Grendan. When? It’s in the past. Why did he do it? He did those to help his orphanage Was he wrong? Yes, he was considered wrong within Grendan and guilty as charged, and he already received his punishment, which was a complete exile.

Now he venture to a new city to start a new life. Within Zuellni, no Grendan anymore, different set of rules and conducts. Things went well and he’s being a good kid when suddenly some idiot revealed his past ‘crimes’. Then our squad captain here Nina decides bring it up front and blame him for misconduct of which he had been punished.

Professionally and normally Layfon did nothing wrong while he’s in Zuellni. The questions here actually are his moral stands, he maintain the very same mindset he has from Grendan.

Thats correct for a person like Layfon who was given 2 choices in life, too fight and get strong or too be weak and die. So just think being trained from a very young age, i mean who knows perhaps he was 3-4 years old when he started for god sake, and at the age of 10 he was killing huge Filth monsters the size of who knows the White house all alone.

So even if you try and remain pure hearted after all that which is almost impossible because for Layfon who fought and killed creatures too protect the things he cared about and the things that meant everything to him, gave him the powerful killing intent which could kill emotions when needed to kill.

And when a human fool like Gahard tried too push Layfon too a desperate point where he had too choose between the things he loved and cared about and the things that was helping him support the things he loved and cared about, so for Layfon who knew only how to fight and kill and was doing that for the most peroid of his life, gave him the killing intent and he used the only method he knew and used the opportunity too do that during the match, but obviously he either failed or was still too kind too take the life of a human unlike Filth monsters.

Master Assassin
2009-03-11, 04:24
LOL, not even the rest of her team mates, it's also very un-Nina-like if she made that kind of decision.

It's simple:

- First, she was the one who willingly took him under her wing into the platoon, so she should be responsible for his conditions while he stays under her leadership. If Layfon joined the platoon within his own will then that'll be another story.
- Since Nina has known the whole story from Gorneo with a little bit more revelation from Layfon, she should've known why Layfon cut off Gahard's arm, and there are parts in both Layfon's and Gorneo's story she can actually concur and can justify some of it even though it was a horrible thing to be done.
- As how pushy she might be, she's not that rash and kicking him out from the team would be a very immature decision, she herself can realize that.
- And, finally, she still needs Layfon's strength. If she kicks him out then her efforts to have him for the team would all go to waste.

Clarste
2009-03-11, 04:35
Now he venture to a new city to start a new life. Within Zuellni, no Grendan anymore, different set of rules and conducts. Things went well and he’s being a good kid when suddenly some idiot revealed his past ‘crimes’. Then our squad captain here Nina decides bring it up front and blame him for misconduct of which he had been punished.

Professionally and normally Layfon did nothing wrong while he’s in Zuellni. The questions here actually are his moral stands, he maintain the very same mindset he has from Grendan.

I didn't see any indication that she was blaming him for his past. The problem she has with him is his philosophy, which is unchanged since his past, and that she had already been having problems with since before his past was revealed. The details of his past don't matter, except insofar as what they say about who he is. And, by his own account, he doesn't regret what he did. It simply followed naturally from how he lives his life. Whether or not he's been punished for it is irrelevant.

TrueKnight
2009-03-11, 04:47
How do you judge a person? By his moral or his action? So far Layfon had not done anything wrong in Zuellni. It's actually the opposite, he saved their ass several times and if weren't for him they'd be bug food by now. as long he's doing his job properly and saving the city and his teammates. He can not be blamed.

Fevvers
2009-03-11, 04:48
I'm kinda the same way: I'm trying to look at it from Nina's perspective. I just didn't like all the Nina hate going around in the thread and tried to show why it's not unreasonable for her to do what she's doing. I also don't think there's any "hidden" evidence which would change her opinion on the situation. It's not simply a misunderstanding, and she's not jumping to conclusions. She's not entirely right either, but I don't think she's being an idiot or anything like that.

That's what I think as well. For the position she's in, being the platoon leader and all, and having no means of finding out the whole truth either at the moment, I thought her action was logical and understandable. Not that it matters much for most people here though, as they tend to overreact on anything Nina-related and overly lenient on anything that involves Layfon.

Clarste
2009-03-11, 04:57
How do you judge a person? By his moral or his action? So far Layfon had not done anything wrong in Zuellni. It's actually the opposite, he saved their ass several times and if weren't for him they'd be bug food by now. as long he's doing his job properly and saving the city and his teammates. He can not be blamed.

Er...both? If I told you that I'll do everything in my power to save everyone I meet, and show you the same with my actions, but then later add that I'll kill anyone named "Bob" for some reason, you'd probably be hesitant to introduce me to your friend Bob. Well, that's a weird example... but the point is that just becomes someone saves your life doesn't mean they're a saint. You want her to blindly follow him? Heck, she's being respectful and not denying his beliefs, merely disagreeing. It's not like she's exiling him from the city, she's just realized that their ideologies are too different and can't work with him.

And its not like his actions don't show his morals. He's already done several things showing his attitude (refusing to fight in the platoon matches for one) and she now has new evidence in the form of his past, which he did not deny or even seem to regret. All evidence points to him being the person he says he is, so why should she ignore his words? His own words, mind you. It's not like she's misunderstanding him, she's reacting to his own statements about himself and his actions.

Enternal
2009-03-11, 05:38
The "maiming of allies" is taken out of context. Layfon maimed a man in a contest where (by all I've seen) maiming a man is perfectly legal. The man he injured could not be considered an ally in any real context anyway, as he was entirely motivated by selfish desires to get the HB and not by any real desire to protect the people of the city (of everyone in CSR so far he was by far the most likely to betray and maim allies without provocation). Layfon has shown again and again that his allies are many, many times safer with him at their back than him not there at all.

Thus Nina's decision to remove Layfon from her team is either based on an idea that is inherently incorrect, or a selfish desire to remove a person who's ideals differ from hers from her presence so that her own ideals won't get shattered (ie. when she learned how futile and pointless the dead city's "victory" was).

Hurray for long posts :D and again im not hating Nina or trying to defend Layfon to my last breath. Just putting up some thoughts that crossed my mind.:heh:

Just to be clear, he attempted to kill the guy and not simply maim the guy although to the audience, it might seem like he is only trying to maim the guy.

There's a reason why she wants him out of her platoon. It's simply because of their clashing ideals, it could get in their way of the entire group performance rather than just because it's not similar to hers. So far each of the member of the platoon does not really have similar ideals but since it does not get in the way of group performance, she has no problems. However, she got hasty and thought that his ideals might ruin the performance and thus hastily decided that he should not be in the platoon.

How do you judge a person? By his moral or his action? So far Layfon had not done anything wrong in Zuellni. It's actually the opposite, he saved their ass several times and if weren't for him they'd be bug food by now. as long he's doing his job properly and saving the city and his teammates. He can not be blamed.

That is giving him too much power don't you think? As long as he saves people and help his teammates, he can do whatever he wants and cannot be blamed.

Also, Nina said "We shouldn't be in the same platoon," therefore I take it that it's her sentiments but she won't find a way to kick him off the team so lets not go around and change that to "Nina decided to kick Layfon off the team" or whatnot and keep the facts.

Tjaard
2009-03-11, 05:40
Since Nina is the platoon's leader is logical that she begin to doubt of Layfon behavior, because if he does something to survive that harms the reputation of the team for her is bad, you need to remember that this (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0322/vlcsnap-22577) is her dream and Layfon told her that is useless until there are FM, however she said "It might be that we shouldn't be in the same platoon", so she began to think that their way of thinking will never come to an agreement and that this could damage their teamwork, but i think that all these recent discoveries confusing and destroy her way of thinking, so i think is normal begin to doubt.:heh:
But all we know that is impossible that she can kick Layfon away, because our favorite siscon SCP doesn't ever allow it :heh:

TrueKnight
2009-03-11, 05:45
Er...both?

Nice, but unfortunately idealistic.

If I told you that I'll do everything in my power to save everyone I meet, and show you the same with my actions, but then later add that I'll kill anyone named "Bob" for some reason, you'd probably be hesitant to introduce me to your friend Bob. Well, that's a weird example... but the point is that just becomes someone saves your life doesn't mean they're a saint.

You’re bringing up an example, then please allow me to give you mine,

There’s this rapist or criminal, being transferred in a ship thats currently sailing in sea. The ship is filled with passengers and civilians. Suddenly the ship’s security recently finds out that the ship is loaded with a time bomb inside its engine room and attached to the engine, cannot be removed, set to blew up in 30 minutes, which would automatically kills all the civilian on board immediately.

The rapist despite his current situation is actually a former bomb disposal expert, and none other than him is actually capable on disarming the bomb.

So what will the ship’s crew do?

a. Ask the rapist to disarm the bomb saving the civilian?

b. Hell no, I’d rather die than ask a rapist to save us.

CSR’s case, a bit different with same result,

Fon-fon was criminal, coming to Zuellni to start a new life. Acting heroic and saving the city. His past is finally known by his squad, Nina and the city, they expelled him from the squad just because she discriminate his way of thinking and not for his action. Suddenly the city is under siege with countless of high-class bugs. None other than Fon-fon will be able to beat it and running is not an option.

So what will the city or Nina do?

a. Ask Fon-fon for help saving the city, the squad and its civillian?

b. Hell No, We’d rather die in glory than ask him to help us.

You want her to blindly follow him? Heck, she's being respectful and not denying his beliefs, merely disagreeing. It's not like she's exiling him from the city, she's just realized that their ideologies are too different and can't work with him.

Where do I state this? I merely want her to leave him alone for his ideals. If she were to bitch about it, at least learn about it first before start talking.

And its not like his actions don't show his morals. He's already done several things showing his attitude (refusing to fight in the platoon matches for one) and she now has new evidence in the form of his past, which he did not deny or even seem to regret. All evidence points to him being the person he says he is, so why should she ignore his words? His own words, mind you. It's not like she's misunderstanding him, she's reacting to his own statements about himself and his actions.

Like I said, his actions did not have to reflect his morals. Let him do his job properly and as long he didn’t violates bother or violate the rules, then he’s fine the way he is.

noxian
2009-03-11, 05:48
- As how pushy she might be, she's not that rash and kicking him out from the team would be a very immature decision, she herself can realize that.


oh i don't know, actually there's plenty of evidence of Nina being fairly rash and selfish when it comes to what she wants.
when the guy quit her squad, she was pretty much ready to attack an unarmed person. you want to talk about assaulting an "ally"? even after he pointed it out, she was still about to chase after him until Harley stopped her. even if she didn't intend to literally attack him, that's definitely a threatening gesture.
her history is pretty much of her doing whatever she wants without much concern for anyone else. that's pretty much why her old captain was pissed at her if you remember the flashback.

her big problem is she's logical only within the context of her limited view and she has no desire or inclination to expand her view, which is hardly a good trait for a commander. in fact it would appear she never changed until Layfon came along. her former captain noted she hadn't changed at all when they had their inter-platoon match. she never learned anything, she just left and formed her own platoon to suit herself.

really, its actually pretty doubtful that she's acknowledging, and simply disagrees, his idealogy at all. its more in line with her history that she's simply refusing to recognize it period, and its easier for her to just "run away" from it by removing him from her squad. she doesn't have to face the questions he posed her, she doesn't have to reflect on herself, she can just continue to do her own thing mindless of anyone else.

all that having been said, i don't actually dislike Nina, actually I like her a lot. she shows a lot of the same flaws you get in a lot of male protagonists, but she actually gets some reasons for it, some development for it.
it all falls in place, it all makes sense. She's plenty wrong (not that Layfon doesn't have his own issues), but who isn't in life.
more importantly her flaws make a good mirror for Layfon. He's a guy who did everything for other people (he fought, in theory, for grendan. he made money for his orphanage. its clear he didn't keep any of the money for himself) but did it in a fairly...solitary, self-serving fashion (for lack of a better way to put it). and she's a girl who spends her life living out this ideal of honor and service, but really does nothing for anyone but herself and maybe faeries.
the way i see it, she's not someone to dislike. its the clashes of characters like her and Layfon that make for a good story. well, clashes and resolutions, and since we haven't seen the resolution yet, we can't judge that.

as far as whether Layfon will really get kicked out, beyond the obvious fact that he's the central character, Nina's somewhat overlooking the fact that she needed him, he didn't need her. specifically, its her squad that lost a member in the beginning of the series, and implications were, was under the required member number. and to top it off, it sounded like her platoon had already developed somewhat of a reputation and was getting borderline blacklisted from any possibility of new members.
so in short she'd be pretty much dissolving her own squad by removing him.

Enternal
2009-03-11, 05:56
oh i don't know, actually there's plenty of evidence of Nina being fairly rash and selfish when it comes to what she wants.
when the guy quit her squad, she was pretty much ready to attack an unarmed person. you want to talk about assaulting an "ally"? even after he pointed it out, she was still about to chase after him until Harley stopped her. even if she didn't intend to literally attack him, that's definitely a threatening gesture.
her history is pretty much of her doing whatever she wants without much concern for anyone else. that's pretty much why her old captain was pissed at her if you remember the flashback.

her big problem is she's logical only within the context of her limited view and she has no desire or inclination to expand her view, which is hardly a good trait for a commander. in fact it would appear she never changed until Layfon came along. her former captain noted she hadn't changed at all when they had their inter-platoon match. she never learned anything, she just left and formed her own platoon to suit herself.

really, its actually pretty doubtful that she's acknowledging, and simply disagrees, his idealogy at all. its more in line with her history that she's simply refusing to recognize it period, and its easier for her to just "run away" from it by removing him from her squad. she doesn't have to face the questions he posed her, she doesn't have to reflect on herself, she can just continue to do her own thing mindless of anyone else.

all that having been said, i don't actually dislike Nina, actually I like her a lot. she shows a lot of the same flaws you get in a lot of male protagonists, but she actually gets some reasons for it, some development for it.
it all falls in place, it all makes sense. She's plenty wrong (not that Layfon doesn't have his own issues), but who isn't in life.
more importantly her flaws make a good mirror for Layfon. He's a guy who did everything for other people (he fought, in theory, for grendan. he made money for his orphanage. its clear he didn't keep any of the money for himself) but did it in a fairly...solitary, self-serving fashion (for lack of a better way to put it). and she's a girl who spends her life living out this ideal of honor and service, but really does nothing for anyone but herself and maybe faeries.
the way i see it, she's not someone to dislike. its the clashes of characters like her and Layfon that make for a good story. well, clashes and resolutions, and since we haven't seen the resolution yet, we can't judge that.

as far as whether Layfon will really get kicked out, beyond the obvious fact that he's the central character, Nina's somewhat overlooking the fact that she needed him, he didn't need her. specifically, its her squad that lost a member in the beginning of the series, and implications were, was under the required member number. and to top it off, it sounded like her platoon had already developed somewhat of a reputation and was getting borderline blacklisted from any possibility of new members.
so in short she'd be pretty much dissolving her own squad by removing him.

I don't think she will kick him out at all since all she stated was more of her sentiments rather than definite action. Overall, though, I agree with how you feel about her. She is someone definitely can improve as a character since she and Layfon are people who so far seems to build each other up although Layfon not initially but seems to now since he starts to question his own past actions. Rather, in a way they complement each other since what Layfon has Nina doesn't and vice versa. Having a balance is always a good thing and I can see that these two can provide that as well as developing each other. About her reflecting on herself though I disagree. I think she does reflect on herself to an extent because if she did not, she would not have overcome her inferior complex with Layfon.


Where do I state this? I merely want her to leave him alone for his ideals. If she were to bitch about it, at least learn about it first before start talking.

That could actually be a part of Layfon's fault since while they were discussing, he did not let out any more info than that which makes Nina think that is all there is to the story when it's actually not.

---------

This is what I think. Nina represent ideals. Layfon represents reality.

Ideals is what we all strive for to make things better. Reality is what actually happens. However, there is a need for both. Being to idealistic goes no where but the same applies for being way to realistic becuase there is nothing to strive for. An example is:

Everyone does not lie to each other. Reality however says otherwise. If you are overly realistic, since everyone lies and that's how the world goes, you might as well lie. If you are overly idealistic, you will probably feel anger and disappointment because that's now how the real world is.

Now if there is a balance, you know and accept that reality is not as great as you think but being a bit idealistic as well, you still strive to be someone who does not lie and that improves the world around us.

I don't know if I am able to get he message across because I'm not always great at doing this but I sure hope it means at least something.

Overall though, I don't agree with either Layfon or Nina. Nina wants people to think like her too much while Layfon does not really think of what others think which could be more devastating than he thought.

TrueKnight
2009-03-11, 06:00
As long as he saves people and help his teammates, he can do whatever he wants and cannot be blamed.

Did he violate any of the rules while in Zuellni? Nope, he's being a good kid.

You could have different sexual orientation, beliefs, religions or ideals. As long you're not violating the current rules or doing mischievous stuffs, within the current premises or period and not including your previous deed, you can not simply be blamed. Differrent place and time, different set of rules.

Enternal
2009-03-11, 06:14
Did he violate any of the rules while in Zuellni? Nope, he's being a good kid.

I'm mainly trying to say that the issue that Nina has is with Layfon's ideals and philosophy than rather what he did in his past. If I met a robber, there is two ways I could be mad at him. I could be mad at him because he robbed my house. I could also be mad at him because of his thoughts that robbing houses is fine.

Otherwise, yes Layfon is currently being a good kid but his ideals and philosophy is an issue here.

danin8r44
2009-03-11, 06:38
---------

This is what I think. Nina represent ideals. Layfon represents reality.

Ideals is what we all strive for to make things better. Reality is what actually happens. However, there is a need for both. Being to idealistic goes no where but the same applies for being way to realistic becuase there is nothing to strive for. An example is:

Everyone does not lie to each other. Reality however says otherwise. If you are overly realistic, since everyone lies and that's how the world goes, you might as well lie. If you are overly idealistic, you will probably feel anger and disappointment because that's now how the real world is.

Now if there is a balance, you know and accept that reality is not as great as you think but being a bit idealistic as well, you still strive to be someone who does not lie and that improves the world around us.

I don't know if I am able to get he message across because I'm not always great at doing this but I sure hope it means at least something.

Overall though, I don't agree with either Layfon or Nina. Nina wants people to think like her too much while Layfon does not really think of what others think which could be more devastating than he thought.

Well said, I agree. Both are too polarized and part of this show will likely be Nina realizing how pure ideals, and hopefully her stubboness and agressiveness, are meaningless without rationalism and calm premeditation. Layfon will learn that it isn't bad to lighten up on his strict realism.

It feels like Felli can only mature a little more from this point on. As for Leerin, she seems like the only one of the main characters who has a perfectly sound head. (If you discount the foxish thing in it)

holyman282
2009-03-11, 06:43
Everyone must perceive this through the context of the story. Let's consider the scenario, the world is polluted except for a few domed cities, which in itself is constantly attacked by filth monsters. Basically the world in which Layfon and others exist is a world where people's lives are constantly at risk and could end in a most horrible way. In fact Layfon when defending Zuelleni by killing the mother of the filth monsters a few ep back even stated that this is the world in which they live in.

So I ask you that in a world where people face the harshest of conditions, where their lives are in danger at every turn, why are there still people existing in these circumstances? This is due to the innate instinct of a person to survive, whether individually or through cooperation.

Now let me ask you this, in those sorts of circumstances would you yourself not do anything possible to survive? Would anyone hold onto those idealistic views that Nina has? What are her views anyway? From this ep all I can see is that she places military arts over everything else in terms of importance. Many people think from watching this ep that her ideals are the "all for one and one for all" concept. It's not. When did she ever say she valued teamwork? When did she say she'll risk her own life to save another's?

Nina's ideals are similar to Layfon's but no way as practical. Where as Layfon fights to live, she fights to win. We've seen that mentality from the beginning of ep 1 where she would disobey her previous captain's orders in order to try to capture the flag of the opposing regios city. Or the fact that she'd get excited whenever her platoon seems to be doing well without taking into consideration the feelings of her squad.

People who support Nina say that her ideals, being opposite to Layfon's are the more altruistic type but in fact her's are the most selfish. She fights not out of necessity, which is what made Layfon fight, but for the sheer purpose that she places military arts on a pedestal and worships it and enjoys the feeling of victory. Now how can one compare the two and come to the conclusion that Layfon's ideals are bad and that Nina's are right?

Wargumm1i
2009-03-11, 06:47
The thing is about Nina is that she has lived a decent life and had alot of choices since she lived In a decent city that never had to worry much about Bug problems which was proven when they got there first wave of little larvas.

So that mostly will make her an idealist who hasen´t gotten a good look at the world, and not seen it for it truly is.

And that is one of the parts that most of the people here posting on the topic are pissed about is that she does see the world for what it truly is, a place where the strong eat the weak.

And I understand that people are also angry about Nina for what way she is treating him for being and having diffrent ideas and life choice, because In Nina´s case she has bin I living a life without any real worrys and has bin following a path which she clearly underestimated and always believed she was really strong until she met Layfon who proved otherwise that she was weak and left her insecure about her own strenght.

And when she met Layfon she met someone who has seen the world and knows it for what it truly is, and when she knew about Layfons past which she didint until now and she did not like it and understand it, which led her to think that they should not be on the same team.

Well its basically to say this in Nina´s case that a child understands, Nina never knew the world and what it truly is, and which is no diffrent form telling a kid that santa claus doesn´t exists.

danin8r44
2009-03-11, 06:59
Everyone must perceive this through the context of the story. Let's consider the scenario, the world is polluted except for a few domed cities, which in itself is constantly attacked by filth monsters. Basically the world in which Layfon and others exist is a world where people's lives are constantly at risk and could end in a most horrible way. In fact Layfon when defending Zuelleni by killing the mother of the filth monsters a few ep back even stated that this is the world in which they live in.

So I ask you that in a world where people face the harshest of conditions, where their lives are in danger at every turn, why are there still people existing in these circumstances? This is due to the innate instinct of a person to survive, whether individually or through cooperation.

Now let me ask you this, in those sorts of circumstances would you yourself not do anything possible to survive? Would anyone hold onto those idealistic views that Nina has? What are her views anyway? From this ep all I can see is that she places military arts over everything else in terms of importance. Many people think from watching this ep that her ideals are the "all for one and one for all" concept. It's not. When did she ever say she valued teamwork? When did she say she'll risk her own life to save another's?

Nina's ideals are similar to Layfon's but no way as practical. Where as Layfon fights to live, she fights to win. We've seen that mentality from the beginning of ep 1 where she would disobey her previous captain's orders in order to try to capture the flag of the opposing regios city. Or the fact that she'd get excited whenever her platoon seems to be doing well without taking into consideration the feelings of her squad.

People who support Nina say that her ideals, being opposite to Layfon's are the more altruistic type but in fact her's are the most selfish. She fights not out of necessity, which is what made Layfon fight, but for the sheer purpose that she places military arts on a pedestal and worships it and enjoys the feeling of victory. Now how can one compare the two and come to the conclusion that Layfon's ideals are bad and that Nina's are right?

Yes Nina's ideals come off as selfish, because every time you work FOR an ideal you are really just working for what YOU believe in so... for YOURSELF. Inside of Nina's grand moral scheme there are sections that say for instance fight to your death for your city, maybe never leave a squad mate on his own, victory must be achieved at all costs, don't kill the innocent, maintaining your honor is the highest priority.

We have seen those bits of her ideals and many of them are indeed selfish. However, the bigger ones are extremely altruistic, if not suicidal.

It feels to me that so many of Nina's ideals are contradictory that they will inevitably crash. She seems amazingly selfish and amazingly altruistic, extremely accepting and readily rejecting, very strong and very weak. I could go on...

Her ideals turn her into a giant paradox with a body and, according to the shower scenes a nice butt.:D

holyman282
2009-03-11, 07:13
Yes Nina's ideals come off as selfish, because every time you work FOR an ideal you are really just working for what YOU believe in so... for YOURSELF. Inside of Nina's grand moral scheme there are sections that say for instance fight to your death for your city, maybe never leave a squad mate on his own, victory must be achieved at all costs, don't kill the innocent, maintaining your honor is the highest priority.

We have seen those bits of her ideals and many of them are indeed selfish. However, the bigger ones are extremely altruistic, if not suicidal.

It feels to me that so many of Nina's ideals are contradictory that they will inevitably crash. She seems amazingly selfish and amazingly altruistic at the same time in many places, extremely accepting and readily rejecting, very strong and very weak. I could go on...

Her ideals turn her into a giant paradox with a body and, according to the shower scenes a nice butt.:D

The point is that many people point out that Layfon's and Nina's ideals are direct opposites and that somehow Layfon represents the realistic idea and Nina's are the "pure" ones. Let me say this, there is no purer thought then the want to survive, that thought is written in the genetics of every living thing. Where as Nina's ideals of winning are tainted with her own selfish desires to be better or stronger then everyone else whether as a platoon or individually.

Using Altruistic to describe Nina's bigger ideals, I feel is completely off. There is nothing self sacrificing or selfless about any of her ideals. they've been all centred around the fact that when Layfon came along she felt weaker and probably developed an inferiority complex. The funny thing is that where the other members of the platoon accepted even drawn amazement at Layfon's power, she who initially recruited him is the only person cynical over everything he does.

It's seems that whenever one problem is resolved between them Nina always finds a way to drag out another.

I do agree with you that she's a vessel of contradictions, her leadership or strategy skills involve her rushing to the frontline, she treats her squad members based on a "how I feel today" approach and she's just absolutely all talk. Personally from what I see so far she's absolutely a horrible person to be in a leadership position. She almost reminds me of those aristocratic types that likes to boss people around but lack the qualification in terms of skills to do so.

-Sho-
2009-03-11, 07:34
Just watch this episode :

Wow great episode ! We know more about Layfon's letter and his past :)
Leerin and Shinola was cute !
So Grahard was a heaven blade and Layfon take his post !In order to survive Layfon did it !
Well its not bad , i think Layfon is more realistic than Nina .
Savaris was amazing . Good fight .
FonFon x Felli moments ^^ but what a shame Nina comes :S
Nina : "We shouldn't be in the same platoon" wow attention Nina's haters XD
-_-" Nina is very ... Layfon don't care about her ... just go with the others ...

TrueKnight
2009-03-11, 08:18
Personally, I think Fon-fon is good person at heart, where he brought this exact same mindset from Grendan to Zuellni, but still willing to help the people and the city, helping Narki with her trivial duties regardless how ‘unimportant’ it were from Layfon’s duty perspective, persuading Felli to help him to protect the city, and even going so far to the point of not mind being used as long he could save the lives of people and going solo to kill the dragon bug in episode 7. This is who he really is, a good guy.

And he CAN change. He admitted that he’s not much of a team player and like to go solo (HB pressure I guess), but in episode 7 he trusted Nina (though she acted as bait), in episode 8 he finally able to work as a team. Not only that, because of his ‘kindness’ he changed both Nina and Felli as well. Nina from rash and emo to finally work and think as a team and handling her inferiority complex. Felli from selfish to finally willing to use her powers and helped others and her squad to her fullest extent. Both girls changed and developed because of Fon-fon.

He may have different way of doing things in case includes his ideals, but there are reasons behind them. Now if Nina really wants to make him change, he should’ve talk to him properly and learn why he did those things, instead being all chivalric, idealistic blabla stuffs like that and suddenly force her ideals on him, or even worse, condemned and threaten to expel him from the squad for it.

Yeah she’s more of an idealist instead a realist.

Slick_rick
2009-03-11, 08:34
The point is that many people point out that Layfon's and Nina's ideals are direct opposites and that somehow Layfon represents the realistic idea and Nina's are the "pure" ones. Let me say this, there is no purer thought then the want to survive, that thought is written in the genetics of every living thing. Where as Nina's ideals of winning are tainted with her own selfish desires to be better or stronger then everyone else whether as a platoon or individually.

I wouldn't say wanting to survive is a pure thought. It's one of the most basic motives but far from "pure". I think Nina goals have always been for the city/team to be stronger not just herself. The problem with Nina was she always took the responsibility/risk on to herself instead of depending more on others.



[/QUOTE]Using Altruistic to describe Nina's bigger ideals, I feel is completely off. There is nothing self sacrificing or selfless about any of her ideals. they've been all centred around the fact that when Layfon came along she felt weaker and probably developed an inferiority complex. The funny thing is that where the other members of the platoon accepted even drawn amazement at Layfon's power, she who initially recruited him is the only person cynical over everything he does.[/QUOTE]

She at first was upset at Layfon for hiding his abilities. She moved on for that in the span of less than an episode after a talk with him. She then after witness how truly powerful he was, he was still holding back most of his power at that point, did she develop an inferiority complex. She tried to train with herself to get stronger but wore herself out. She then came to terms with it after a talk with Layfon. The others are different. Felli does the same thing as Layfon so she has no right to criticize him, Sharnid is laid back and doesn't care if Layfon does all the work for them, and Harley is happy he has something to more to do now.

It's seems that whenever one problem is resolved between them Nina always finds a way to drag out another.

Well I think this has more to do with Layfon. He was the one keeping secrets. Yes, their his secrets but as we can see they're wanting affecting the team. Even Felli calls him out on it.


I do agree with you that she's a vessel of contradictions, her leadership or strategy skills involve her rushing to the frontline, she treats her squad members based on a "how I feel today" approach and she's just absolutely all talk. Personally from what I see so far she's absolutely a horrible person to be in a leadership position. She almost reminds me of those aristocratic types that likes to boss people around but lack the qualification in terms of skills to do so.

Well, she's learning to be a leader. Few people are born with natural leadership abilities but a lot eventually learn. I think Layfon is learning to be a better person. Most people want something more to their lives than just surviving. I'm certain Layfon could have found a different way to keep the orphanage in business but he like Nina, was only really used to depending on his own power instead of others.

zibi88
2009-03-11, 08:37
Just watch this episode :

Wow great episode ! We know more about Layfon's letter and his past :)
Leerin and Shinola was cute !
So Grahard was a heaven blade and Layfon take his post !In order to survive Layfon did it !
Well its not bad , i think Layfon is more realistic than Nina .
Savaris was amazing . Good fight .
FonFon x Felli moments ^^ but what a shame Nina comes :S
Nina : "We shouldn't be in the same platoon" wow attention Nina's haters XD
-_-" Nina is very ... Layfon don't care about her ... just go with the others ...


No Grahard was not a HB.... he was simply jelous that Layfon who was only a kid took the last 12th HB place..... since he (Grahard) was training for so long to gain HB but he was not able to gain that title becouse Layfon showed up an took it away from him (his desire)..... that made him angry and he wanted to play dirty..... give up the space of HB or I will tell everyone about the fightings for money.... (layfon had his own pride as HB so he couldnt give away that spot becouse someone blackmails him [if he did then his pride,life and possibility to gain money for the orphanage will disappear in instant] )

Savarius even admited that Grahard lost to Layfon becouse he was/is weak so how can someone become a HB if he cant even defeat a kid (Layfon).....simply Layfon was stronger so he deserver the title..... Gorneo can kiss his ass at most since I cant wait for the moment when Savarius will tell Gorneo that his master turned into a monster and that he killed him ^^ (Layfon cut only his arm but big brother killed him ;] )

By looking at preview we can see that Layfon is shoting a kei blast throught his mouth..... and I wonder if he was learning other HB users skills (since we saw strings from Rintens, multiplication from Savarius) and if yes then which ones ^^

-Sho-
2009-03-11, 08:42
Ok its clear now ^^ Personally i'm with Layfon's side , since the beginning , his life wasn't easy , and people now still make it more harder omg .

arkxkra
2009-03-11, 08:58
erm, episode was not bad, fightning is not enough for me, but nvm.
As alway Felli is so cute ^^. And damn, Nina come out interupt.

look forward to next episode.

aliasxn
2009-03-11, 08:59
There's a reason why she wants him out of her platoon. It's simply because of their clashing ideals, it could get in their way of the entire group performance rather than just because it's not similar to hers. So far each of the member of the platoon does not really have similar ideals but since it does not get in the way of group performance, she has no problems. However, she got hasty and thought that his ideals might ruin the performance and thus hastily decided that he should not be in the platoon.

He IS the damn group performance!! If she thinks it might become a problem then she should kick herself out, because she is the worthless one.

Chase
2009-03-11, 09:07
Episode was pretty good, got more into Layfon's past. His survive ideal thing vs Nina's was done well. I can understand both. The Layfon/Felli moment interruption by Nina wasn't bad really tho Felli almost won:smile:. I guess Nina is beginning to grow on me alot. Overrall, the episode is a 9/10.

fatez
2009-03-11, 10:42
Putting Nina aside,

I blame Grendan for most of Layfon problem. The way I see it is that Layfon and the others HB are more like suicide bomber/kamikaze pilot. They are to be sacrifice for their city if the time is right. Therefore, they should be treated with the utmost care and respect. I'm not saying giving them they want, but they should be treated with more preferential treatment. Grendan, knows of Layfon money problem. So, why don't they help him out? It is the least that they could do for a guy who is sacrificing his life for everybody.


Now, Zuelleni.

They are actually doing just that. Look at the President, using every means to get layfon into the military. He is willing to go the extreme for his city. Thus, I believe Layfon is better served under him. He actually value Layfon's worth even if he is seen as a tool.




About Nina....

Who the hell cares about what she thinks? She has no rights/powers to force her stupid opinion into anyone. Inorder for person to teach another and say that they are wrong they have to prove that they are qualified to do so. A teacher proves that to his student that he has the rights because he is more experience and educated. A martial art teacher proves that because he can kick his student ass, that they should listen to him. Thus Nina fails in all of this aspect.


Don't forget, Layfon is not a member of the team. He is the team. Without them, they were useless. Losing to every match and can't even defend themselves against some low level bugs. Thus, no one on the team should be teaching Layfon on what to do. As a friend, they can suggest, but don't act all high and mighty.


I know some of you guys will bring the whole morale argument, but that is utter bull shit. Moral means nothing if humanity all dies out. The more humanity is on the brink of extinction, moral becomes more subjective. So for Nina, to spill out such nonsense, is utterly out of place and time. I say throw her out of the city and the bug have their ways with her.:D. I'm pretty sure, the president of Zuellini would do it, if Layfon demands it. Just Layfon is too much of a nice guy. Darn.

Sinestra
2009-03-11, 10:55
How did i know Nina would get like this once she knew the truth about Layfon. She wonders why he doesnt really open up to her but instead talks to Felli all the time. Felli doesnt judge Layfon on his past but the now. Nina should probably figure out what her own way of doing things instead of being influenced by everything Layfon does. What are her views? I have not seen her come up with anything herself except i want to be stronger and that was for pure jealous reasons. She has got a lot to learn about life and when your life is constantly in danger you will do anything to survive something she has no concept of.

Nina doesnt want them to be in the same squad anymore. Great let Layfon leave im sure Felli wouldnt stay and she can go back to losing all the time and being emo about it. Layfon is the team he and Felli and the most powerful ones and Felli does not have any real attachement to her its Layfon who she has bonded with. But hey Nina has her pride i guess that will keep the squad a float. Its funny how fast someone can turn against you after all you have done Nina didnt have a problem when they were winning every match.

As you can tell iv had it up to here with Nina she will be marching to a different tune soon.

TrueKnight
2009-03-11, 12:09
Okay, most of us here have been either supportive or critical on Layfon’s ‘moral’ view.

But what about Savaris? The guy’s a HB, strong, arrogant with elitism and probably likes to torture ants when he’s a kid which explains why he enjoyed torturing Garhad. He stated that no matter what he’ll always side with strong and not the weak. Lol it means he’s siding with Grendan just because they’re strong filled with HBs, but if they suddenly collapse he’ll probably quick to switch sides.

This guy’s badass and I like him, but he’s dangerous.

panpo98
2009-03-11, 12:28
Savaris sure angered the queen then he didn't showed up to rescue Leerin. He seems to have a cruel side but at least he smiles as opposed to his little brother. The brothers also seems to have a different opinion about Gahard. The little brother respect Gahard (like a fallen pop star) while the big brother Savaris despise/dislike Gahard for almost the same reason I do. Maybe so much that his dislike seeped trough his regular charming face. Savaris know more than what he told his little brother and is willing to lie to him about Gahard.

zibi88
2009-03-11, 12:44
I wounder what would happen if Layfon left team17 and went to a different one..... would Felli,Shanrid tag along with him since they dont judge Layfon for what he done in past but what he is now.........just leave Nina alone with her squad17

I think Nina forgot that Layfon saved her ass and saved asses of whole city (fairy Zereni included) if Layfon didnt comited that crime she would be a bug shit by now... just like the whole city......

I could agree if Queen or other HB were saying those Ninas words since they are stronger and more experianced than Layfon....... but Nina kinda doesnt have the right to talk to Layfon in that way.... to his life saviour (and with her life saved she can keep up dreaming of protecting Zerenii)

Ehh kinda its not right to lecture someone with lots more power and real life experiance...... Nina couldnt defeat weak larvas.... and mostly she was pissing her pants after seeing a mature form..... (if not Layfon she would die 2times by getting eaten by bugs... and Layfon keeps up with the saveing her ass....) she was telling that time that they will become stronger as a team.... and now she tells "we shouldnt be at the same team..."

Seriously she is annoying and next time bugs attack I would kick her ass there and left her alone...... she would learn little life experiance.... all her life she was siiting on her ass safly away from monsters.... and all her fighting depended on childish play as inner matches ect.

Seriously If Nina demands Layfon to leave the squad I will hope that Feli will tag along..... leave Nina alone who thinks she is the majesty and can say what she wants becouse she is more experianecd in real life.... she can protect everyone with her supre strenght..... and her way of thinking is the right one and all others are bad....

Now I dont like Nina.... at least not her attitude: first draged in her squad, exploting Layfons power to gain fame, get jelous of his power, blame him that he is so strong, than we will become strogner togerther and now better if you leave the squad............ ahhhhhh I would love to see Layfon smashing Nina in a match (since both in different squads) she would see and feel on her own skin what power she kicked out becouse of her poor attitude....

Enternal
2009-03-11, 13:02
He IS the damn group performance!! If she thinks it might become a problem then she should kick herself out, because she is the worthless one.

She believes in teamwork. That's also shown in the the manga so that's the reason why she felt that way. Layfon's strong, but he's a one man army not a team.

Tjaard
2009-03-11, 13:22
He IS the damn group performance!! If she thinks it might become a problem then she should kick herself out, because she is the worthless one.

A Platoon's leader can't kick himself lol

I wounder what would happen if Layfon left team17 and went to a different one..... would Felli,Shanrid tag along with him since they dont judge Layfon for what he done in past but what he is now.........just leave Nina alone with her squad17

This is pretty impossible, remember that this platoon probably is a platoon that our siscon SCP monitors, so kicking Layfon isn't an option, for me he forced Layfon to join in that platoon because Felli is there :heh:

But this is only a statement that she did, so calm down and wait the next epi :D

Sinestra
2009-03-11, 13:35
I wounder what would happen if Layfon left team17 and went to a different one..... would Felli,Shanrid tag along with him since they dont judge Layfon for what he done in past but what he is now.........just leave Nina alone with her squad17

I think Nina forgot that Layfon saved her ass and saved asses of whole city (fairy Zereni included) if Layfon didnt comited that crime she would be a bug shit by now... just like the whole city......

I could agree if Queen or other HB were saying those Ninas words since they are stronger and more experianced than Layfon....... but Nina kinda doesnt have the right to talk to Layfon in that way.... to his life saviour (and with her life saved she can keep up dreaming of protecting Zerenii)

Ehh kinda its not right to lecture someone with lots more power and real life experiance...... Nina couldnt defeat weak larvas.... and mostly she was pissing her pants after seeing a mature form..... (if not Layfon she would die 2times by getting eaten by bugs... and Layfon keeps up with the saveing her ass....) she was telling that time that they will become stronger as a team.... and now she tells "we shouldnt be at the same team..."

Seriously she is annoying and next time bugs attack I would kick her ass there and left her alone...... she would learn little life experiance.... all her life she was siiting on her ass safly away from monsters.... and all her fighting depended on childish play as inner matches ect.

Seriously If Nina demands Layfon to leave the squad I will hope that Feli will tag along..... leave Nina alone who thinks she is the majesty and can say what she wants becouse she is more experianecd in real life.... she can protect everyone with her supre strenght..... and her way of thinking is the right one and all others are bad....

Now I dont like Nina.... at least not her attitude: first draged in her squad, exploting Layfons power to gain fame, get jelous of his power, blame him that he is so strong, than we will become strogner togerther and now better if you leave the squad............ ahhhhhh I would love to see Layfon smashing Nina in a match (since both in different squads) she would see and feel on her own skin what power she kicked out becouse of her poor attitude....

Bottom line is Nina is hypocrite and has hypocritical ideals. Most of which she couldnt even form herself. Her thoughts and action are triggered by things she cant control and when she gets set adrift in this little thing we called life she gets all pissy. She needs to grow up and understand not everyone has had the life she had if she had to fight for her life everyday she would not have such thoughts.

Enternal
2009-03-11, 13:56
Just to be clear again, Layfon was not forced to join the platoon by Nina. He was forced into military arts but was in fact transferred to Nina's because she asked him too. In her mind, she saved Layfon from being expelled from Zuellni. Rewatch episode 1 to see this so I hope that the misconception that Nina forced him into her platoon can stop being so problematic since it's not even valid. If Harley did not say that Layfon might get kicked out of Zuellni, she probably would not find him to get him into her platoon.

-Sho-
2009-03-11, 14:00
I'm totaly sure that Felli will follow FonFon , about the others i don't think so , maybe the repair man ? because he want FonFon try his weapon , but he's Nina's childhood too . Well whatever , Felli will follow him !

Tjaard
2009-03-11, 14:37
Just to be clear again, Layfon was not forced to join the platoon by Nina. He was forced into military arts but was in fact transferred to Nina's because she asked him too. In her mind, she saved Layfon from being expelled from Zuellni. Rewatch episode 1 to see this so I hope that the misconception that Nina forced him into her platoon can stop being so problematic since it's not even valid. If Harley did not say that Layfon might get kicked out of Zuellni, she probably would not find him to get him into her platoon.

I think that our favorite SCP forced Layfon into Nina platoon :heh:
Nina wanted only a good newbie for her platoon, because another left (and we know why) :D

zibi88
2009-03-11, 14:42
Just to be clear again, Layfon was not forced to join the platoon by Nina. He was forced into military arts but was in fact transferred to Nina's because she asked him too. In her mind, she saved Layfon from being expelled from Zuellni. Rewatch episode 1 to see this so I hope that the misconception that Nina forced him into her platoon can stop being so problematic since it's not even valid. If Harley did not say that Layfon might get kicked out of Zuellni, she probably would not find him to get him into her platoon.

I dont need to re-watch since I remember good..... CEO placed Layfon in military arts in any way....... but Nina used her brain and throught that CEO might kick Layfon out...she didnt know that CEO wanted to put Layfon into military arts and not kick him out................ and here Nina rushes in and wants Layfon to join her squad

Next day Layfon wanted to say that he doesnt want to join the squad "but Nina didnt wanted even to listen to layfon.... she was self concered....." so it was like forceing him to join.......... strange that time she didnt wanted to listen to Layfon.... but now she dies to listen to his story..................

CEO will be ok with layfon in other squad as long as Feli tags along with him ^^ since thx to Layfon Feli starts to understand that she has to use her powers to help others (that she doesnt have a choice since people might get hurt becouse they didnt acted)

Nina for now has to grown up..... stop thinking only about herself and everything around compare to her own life...... she was shiting her pants while seeing and fighting monsters..... yet Layfon was killing them at very young age...... she was sitting safe in town and play inner matches without fearing death..... while Layfon was constantly in deaths grip and each fight with mosnters could be his last one...... Layfon knows what victory meaning is in real world..... Nina doesnt... she lives in a world where wining is where everyone is happy becouse they have a flag from a match........ so Ninas real life experiance is so poor that she should be quiet

Layfon needs Leerin right now ^^ she understands him the best of all after all and only she can comfort him in current situation ^^

AvianWing
2009-03-11, 15:47
I do agree with many people that Nina has her flaws, but most of her hate is unjustified.

To say that a powerless person should not be entitled to his/her opinion is quite egotistic. Yes, Nina is far inferior to Layfon in comparison to their combat prowess, but that doesn't mean she should sympathize with Layfon's ideals because of whatever hardship he has gone through. She has not had as much of a hardship as Layfon, yes, but if she did, she would stand by her morals. For her, the end does not justify the mean.

The first time she went bitchy was due to inferior complex. This new guy appears and destroys everything while she, who has been desiring power since childhood and the power fairy incident, has exhausted herself from training. There's this something that no matter how hard she tries and how much she wants it, she can't obtain, and Layfon simply states that he is quitting military arts. Natural talent is a bitch.

Then she learns that he uses this very same power to do things that she clearly sees as wrong, hurting people along the way. Instinctively, Nina declares it is wrong. But after some time to think, she acknowledges that she has not had the same life as Layfon and cannot relate to him. Hence, at the end of episode 9, she feels as though they should be in different platoons.

There is a clear difference between Nina seeing Layfon as a criminal and seeing Layfon as a victim of circumstances. Nina's choice of words seems to reflect the latter of the two views. Nina trusts Layfon enough with her life just three episodes ago, but trust isn't the only thing that affects the chemistry of the team.

As Enternal has said,
She believes in teamwork. That's also shown in the the manga so that's the reason why she felt that way. Layfon's strong, but he's a one man army not a team.

Despite how Nina comes off as selfishly imposing her ideals upon the members of her group, She obvious care enough about them to not want them to "veer off the path" so to speak. The honorable warrior arch-type taken to the extreme.

In the Felli-centric episode, Nina showed plenty of concern when Felli took things into her own hand.

In episode 9, between her confusion in her conversation with Gorneo, she replied, rather sharply, "Is this what you can't forgive? The fact that Layfon participated in illegal activities while being a heavens blade receiver?"--an act of defending Layfon.

fatez
2009-03-11, 16:18
<<<<]I do agree with many people that Nina has her flaws, but most of her hate is unjustified.

To say that a powerless person should not be entitled to his/her opinion is quite egotistic. Yes, Nina is far inferior to Layfon in comparison to their combat prowess, but that doesn't mean she should sympathize with Layfon's ideals because of whatever hardship he has gone through. She has not had as much of a hardship as Layfon, yes, but if she did, she would stand by her morals. For her, the end does not justify the mean. >>>




Look man, we are not saying the weak don't have a say on things. We are saying the weak and inexperience should not shove their ideas onto people. For example, you wouldn't want a doctor teaching you laws, and lawyer teaching you medicine. And cetainly, you don't want Nina teaching about what is right and wrong about somebody past when she knows very little of it. She is a little baby comparing to the things what Layfon has seen, but she acts like she knows more. That's why people hate her. Because, she is pretending to be something that she is not.

Slick_rick
2009-03-11, 16:56
I dont need to re-watch since I remember good..... CEO placed Layfon in military arts in any way....... but Nina used her brain and throught that CEO might kick Layfon out...she didnt know that CEO wanted to put Layfon into military arts and not kick him out................ and here Nina rushes in and wants Layfon to join her squad

Next day Layfon wanted to say that he doesnt want to join the squad "but Nina didnt wanted even to listen to layfon.... she was self concered....." so it was like forceing him to join.......... strange that time she didnt wanted to listen to Layfon.... but now she dies to listen to his story..................

Well I remember "well" also what happened. Nina did listen to what Layfon had to say. He said he had a nighttime job so he didn't think he could be part of the platoon. Nina, if you remember, also does the same nighttime job so she's knows it's perfectly acceptable to do both. He never came out and said he didn't want to do it to her instead he tried to be tried to make an excuse.


Nina for now has to grown up..... stop thinking only about herself and everything around compare to her own life...... she was shiting her pants while seeing and fighting monsters..... yet Layfon was killing them at very young age...... she was sitting safe in town and play inner matches without fearing death..... while Layfon was constantly in deaths grip and each fight with mosnters could be his last one...... Layfon knows what victory meaning is in real world..... Nina doesnt... she lives in a world where wining is where everyone is happy becouse they have a flag from a match........ so Ninas real life experiance is so poor that she should be quiet

What makes you so sure Layfon definition of victory is any better? The people in Grendan didn't think of it as such. They too experienced the fighting and "real world" as much as him. Do you think all the heavens blade definition is the same as Layfon? You real life experience is probably much poorer than hers so maybe you should...


Look man, we are not saying the weak don't have a say on things. We are saying the weak and inexperience should not shove their ideas onto people. For example, you wouldn't want a doctor teaching you laws, and lawyer teaching you medicine. And cetainly, you don't want Nina teaching about what is right and wrong about somebody past when she knows very little of it. She is a little baby comparing to the things what Layfon has seen, but she acts like she knows more. That's why people hate her. Because, she is pretending to be something that she is not.

Last time I check Nina didn't shove her ideas onto him. She said that she won't deny his beliefs but she didn't know if she could be part of the same team as him. She has a right to her opinion and beliefs.

"I certainly don't want you teaching me about what is right and wrong about somebody past when you know very little of it. You're a little baby comparing to the things Nina has seen, but you act like you know more. That's why people hate you. Because, you are pretending to be something you're not. "

See, we can't simply dismiss a persons point of view only by attacking their experience or character. This isn't a law of court and Nina has every right to wonder about a member of her team.

TrueKnight
2009-03-11, 18:37
I fail to see why Layfon’s past is such a big deal when right now when his merit, ability and action (and Felli) clearly benefit Zuellni more than anyone else. Layfon has not done anything wrong yet. Right now she’s complaining about his ideals, it’s like a supporter of human rights movement don’t like to anything to do with the supporter of capital punishment. Nina - ‘I respect you, but I can’t understand you so I we can’t be together’. Overall, what Nina did to Layfon is nothing more than a ‘discrimination’ against his very own ‘ideals’. Replace ‘ideals’ with ‘beliefs’, ‘gender’ or ‘anything’ then you’ll have similar situations.

AvianWing
2009-03-11, 18:53
Rick, Thanks for clearing up the second half of my argument that was blatantly omitted.

I fail to see why Layfon’s past is such a big deal when right now when his merit, ability and action (and Felli) clearly benefit Zuellni more than anyone else. Layfon has not done anything wrong yet. Right now she’s complaining about his ideals, it’s like a supporter of human rights movement don’t like to anything to do with the supporter of capital punishment. Nina - ‘I respect you, but I can’t understand you so I we can’t be together’. Overall, what Nina did to Layfon is nothing more than a ‘discrimination’ against his very own ‘ideals’. Replace ‘ideals’ with ‘beliefs’, ‘gender’ or ‘anything’ then you’ll have similar situations.

I agree with you, Knight. A person's past should have nothing to do with the merit of the present if he truly means well, but such is the ugliness of human nature. I'm going to go on a hyperbole with this example.

A serial rapist just came out of prison. He has to register as a sex offender and the neighborhood is obviously not going to let him roam around and forget and frolic.

Okay, maybe that was a little too far-fetched. The thing is, the story that Gorneo gave to Nina basically convicted him to be an attempted murder who tried to silence Gorneo's master from tainting Layfon's facade. We, as the audience, knows that Gorneo's master is a jealous bastard and there were probably a lot more circumstances involved, but Nina does not know that.

Have I ever said misunderstanding causes for too much melodrama? well, it does.

In light of that, Nina still gives Layfon the benefit of a doubt, saying that she doesn't understand his situation. Yet, if she doesn't understand him fully, how can they be the in the same platoon? Hence, she declares that it would be better if they are not.

Slick_rick
2009-03-11, 18:56
I fail to see why Layfon’s past is such a big deal when right now when his merit, ability and action (and Felli) clearly benefit Zuellni more than anyone else. Layfon has not done anything wrong yet. Right now she’s complaining about his ideals, it’s like a supporter of human rights movement don’t like to anything to do with the supporter of capital punishment. Nina - ‘I respect you, but I can’t understand you so I we can’t be together’. Overall, what Nina did to Layfon is nothing more than a ‘discrimination’ against his very own ‘ideals’. Replace ‘ideals’ with ‘beliefs’, ‘gender’ or ‘anything’ then you’ll have similar situations.

Sure. When doesn't a boss sometimes "discriminate" against their employees. Technically that's what Layfon is. Nina is the captain of the platoon. Often times boss will have to decide that they can't work with someone due to various differences. A company wants to project an image if someone in the company projects a image contrary to the one they want then no matter if they show up for work on time or are good at their job the company certainly has a right to let go of this person.

Sinestra
2009-03-11, 18:59
I fail to see why Layfon’s past is such a big deal when right now when his merit, ability and action (and Felli) clearly benefit Zuellni more than anyone else. Layfon has not done anything wrong yet. Right now she’s complaining about his ideals, it’s like a supporter of human rights movement don’t like to anything to do with the supporter of capital punishment. Nina - ‘I respect you, but I can’t understand you so I we can’t be together’. Overall, what Nina did to Layfon is nothing more than a ‘discrimination’ against his very own ‘ideals’. Replace ‘ideals’ with ‘beliefs’, ‘gender’ or ‘anything’ then you’ll have similar situations.

Yep pretty much i dont think anyone is saying Nina is not entitled to her own beliefs however to form such an opinion of a person from their past which you make a snap decision on is wrong. It would be a different story if Nina was involved in Layfons past and it directly effected her. She threw everything Layfon has done up till now out the window because of this. Remember it was Nina who asked Layfon about gaining power how she can be strong like him. He gave her the answer and its directly related to Layfons past.

She does not have to like it and if she truly feels they should not be in the same squad anymore so be it. But she would never be entitled to ask Layfon for help again because the stance she is taking now means the present does not matter only the past. I dont hate Nina but im sorry guys she has a lot of growing up to do and her ideals are usually based on either her inferiority complex or some other trail that is beyond her control.

Look at Felli she is accepting the Layfon of NOW not the past one. If i could pose a question to Nina it would be "if you were in Layfons boots what would you have done?" if i didnt like her answer i would be entitled to treat her the same way she treated Layfon and let us not forget besides the Chairmen who was the one who urged Layfon to fight and do things that he really didnt want to?

I dont hate Nina i just disagree with her way of thinking i think it shallow and yes it could be considered discrimination on some level. Thats like me hating all white people just because some of them USE to be in the KKK.

Wargumm1i
2009-03-11, 19:01
Well I remember "well" also what happened. Nina did listen to what Layfon had to say. He said he had a nighttime job so he didn't think he could be part of the platoon. Nina, if you remember, also does the same nighttime job so she's knows it's perfectly acceptable to do both. He never came out and said he didn't want to do it to her instead he tried to be tried to make an excuse.

You seem to have forgotten that he came too Zuellni so he didint have to fight and have anything too do with the Military, he just wanted a normal job so of course he tried to make excuses since also since he was new instead of saying it out clearly "I DONT WANNA" well thats what makes Layfon, Layfon.




What makes you so sure Layfon definition of victory is any better? The people in Grendan didn't think of it as such. They too experienced the fighting and "real world" as much as him. Do you think all the heavens blade definition is the same as Layfon? You real life experience is probably much poorer than hers so maybe you should...

Layfon definition of victory is more something that of human nature and rights, but still those people in Grendan do see for what the world truly is, but that doesnt give them much right too judge his definition of victory since im sure that the other Heavens blades definition of victory cant be that much pure then his.

Also you know where talking about anime characters right? this argument has nothing too do with real life experience.


Last time I check Nina didn't shove her ideas onto him. She said that she won't deny his beliefs but she didn't know if she could be part of the same team as him. She has a right to her opinion and beliefs.

Of course and thats was a right choice, but still in there world Idealist dont survive for much long, since her beliefs are no diffrent from hoping that "aliens will visit earth" also she says she wont deny his beliefs but saying that they should not be on the same team because of that matter is no diffrent from denying it. It only puts her in a position of if she decides too cut him from the team then she would be proven her argument wrong, but if she decided to tolerate his beliefs then she is proving that she believes in her own beliefs.


"I certainly don't want you teaching me about what is right and wrong about somebody past when you know very little of it. You're a little baby comparing to the things Nina has seen, but you act like you know more. That's why people hate you. Because, you are pretending to be something you're not. "

Well enough with the personal attacks, this matter isint really about who is right and who is wrong, its about theory and logics, also this is an anime for christ sake, of course if a person like Nina lived in this world she would surpass all of use :P but thats not the point here, the point being is that just recently she started seeing the world for what it is and experiencing it first hand, which is leaving her insecure and scared.

I say it again, dont take the argument between who is right and who is wrong about Nina and Layfon´s belifes too such high level, when there has only bin 1 episodes since this argument begin.

Give it 2 more episodes then we can talk about who is right and who is wrong.


See, we can't simply dismiss a persons point of view only by attacking their experience or character. This isn't a law of court and Nina has every right to wonder about a member of her team.

That is half true, since Nina doesnt have much experience unlike Layfon, so her Ideals are only based on what she has experienced so far. But the characteristics issue is true, for exemple when Layfon told Nina his beliefs he left out a few things that would have solved the entire thing :D He could have told Nina about the blackmail and all that but he didint.

Also Nina thinks that the person who was Blackmailing him was an loyal soldier trying too do the right thing.