[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations [Archive] - Page 138

AuraTwilight

2014-04-04, 04:18

All of that never happens in red or in front of detective.

Irrelevant. Ryukishi had a reason for it. Sakutarou is treated as an alternate identity for Maria, and the red calls Sakutarou something that could theoretically be revived, but can't be by magic.

You don't 'revive' objects, you repair them. You only 'revive' living things.

And if you dispute the above sentence, you're engaging in a figurative piece of language, and thus admitting the Red can engage in figurative and emotional truths.

I don't claim that this fantasy scene is a proof for my theory.
My theory works even without it.

It doesn't though, because Erika doesn't kill anybody in the closet on the gameboard. The game is over as soon as she inspects it.

Why do you assume that fantasy Erika has the same knowledge as gameboard Erika?

Because gameboard Erika constantly uses information Erika has, and says things only Erika would know. Erika explicitly breaks the 4th wall, and her perspective is the Detective's. How can a fantasy scene involving Erika even exist, if her perspective is present every time she's there?

Also, for clarity, "Meta" and "Fantasy" aren't the same thing. But the point is, Gameboard Erika seems to know everything Meta-Erika does, explicitly describing herself as living in a gameboard and describing the coming murders which haven't happened yet.

For fuck's sake, she uses Red Truth and talks about detective's rules infront of everyone, to the point that she can use Detective's Authority to magically make people step aside and investigate a corpse.

Lol, that's why I said from beginning that we can't trust manga.
She accepts testimony that he's in the back without seeing him?
Are we really talking about Erika here?
Doesn't she have perfect sight and hearing? And always looking out for clues?

Perfect sight doesn't let you see through people's solid bodies. And she's too busy invoking the mystery trope of proclaiming how smart and perfect her reasoning is infront of a crowd. By the time she's gathering everyone and declaring her theory, her reasoning (she thinks), is complete. Why would she even suspect something is amiss?

Besides, the manga is canon. Ryukishi decides absolutely everything in it. It even fixes plot-holes he made in the VN, like how he forgot about the second door in the boiler room in Banquet of the Golden Witch.

If anything, the manga is the revised draft of the VN.

You are simply taking words out of context here.
Just because a word by itself can mean something, doesn't allow you to discard the rest.

Pretty hypocritical of someone who disregards literally everything the author says that isn't colored red or from a detective's point of view.

Doesn't match the story. If Beatrice really took it personally Battler would be among the first to die.

This is blatantly and directly false. Beatrice's motives include forcing Battler to REMEMBER WHAT HE DID. He can't do that if she whacks him off first, regardless of how personally she takes it. You're being intellectually dishonest.

You are misquoting the red again here.
The exact red was
Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.
which has completely different meaning.

So you admit the Red Truth can speak on subjective things, meaning you can't logically discredit subjective redefinitions of death and revival?

Because a person exists regardless of whether or not a person is aware of them. The proper red would've been 'I didn't know any Beatrice six years ago.'

The part of that scene which I describe didn't happen after midnight.
Midnight happens right in the middle of that scene, and that's when magic really starts happening, Kinzo starts walking and talking to Battler, and portal to hell opens.
But before midnight none of that happens.

I may have misremembered. Battler literally gave up in his fight with Beatrice long before this scene, though, and accepted the witch. One can still make the argument that his authority was invalid as soon as he refused to act as a detective.

The manga heavily implies it, for what it's worth.

Disguise is not a word that you can apply to voices.

Yes it is. Natsuhi suspects the Man From 19 Years Ago if disguising his voice.

People do it in real life all the time. There are voice changers. There's speaking through a tube. There's ventriloquism and voice-acting.

Who the hell are you to arbitrarily what isn't and isn't a disguise, like that?

So just because a pair of words "Jessica's corpse" appears in that red, does not itself mean that Jessica is dead.
The meaning of "Jessica's corpse" is overshadowed by meaning of "Discovery of Jessica's corpse", and I even talked to a japanese translator about this, and he says that this interpretation is even more apparent in japanese version.

This directly contradicts your original intention that Shkanon is impossible because they're described as dead or different people.

I could argue that Shannon and Kanon being different people in the red doesn't mean they have different bodies; their minds are still different, but you wouldn't buy that and I wouldn't blame you for finding that suspect.

The red truth is either literal or it is figurative. Please pick one and stick to it, you're faffing back and forth on this.

Additionally, I want to ask what you think of the Nanjo murder in Game 3? Jessica, Eva, and Battler cannot do it and everyone else is dead at the time of the murder according to Eva's red.

The common explanation, and the one Ryukishi vouches for in an interview, is that the killer is someone who discarded all the names Eva-Beatrice listed as dead. And when Battler tried to argue that Jessica had a split personality who killed Nanjo, Eva-Beatrice discredits it by saying her body can't act, not by arguing that such a personality is 'still Jessica'. I feel like this distinction is incredibly important, if only because Eva-Beato could've put that train of thought down to rest forever but didn't.

As for Battle22's question on how Battler can say in red that he witnessed Kinzo, when he didn't?

He thought he did. It was an illusion. A trick of the light. He was objectively wrong, but he was not being personally deceptive or dishonest. The Red Truth has always allowed for emotional and subjective truths. There is literally a Knox rule demanding they get to, if one puts stock in that stuff.

battle22

2014-04-04, 04:25

As for Battle22's question on how Battler can say in red that he witnessed Kinzo, when he didn't?

He thought he did. It was an illusion. A trick of the light. He was objectively wrong, but he was not being personally deceptive or dishonest. The Red Truth has always allowed for emotional and subjective truths. There is literally a Knox rule demanding they get to, if one puts stock in that stuff.

I understand that. But same can be said about the scene when Battler is being told that he is not the son of Asumu, right? He believes he is, so he...should be able to say the red, but he chocked. Shouldn't the same happen in the scene we are discussing now?

AuraTwilight

2014-04-04, 05:19

It's kind of an explicit plot hole because the Red's pretty inconsistent, especially between the first part and Chiru. Considering the existence of Logic Errors, it seems evident that Beatrice forced him to choke.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-04, 05:47

Conspiracy or not, all those themes you are talking about are just themes, they cannot be used as proofs. And if those themes contradict the actual proofs, then what value do they have?

It's kinda funny that you shift from 'this was never seen by the detective' and 'this was said in red, regardless of the context' to 'don't take things out of context' depending on which fits your theory.

Let me ask you then, if they are just themes, WHY ARE THEY EVEN THERE? Why are they so relevant that Ryukishi will spend walls of text (and obviously a great deal of time) to talk about them and analyze them over and over again?

And you know, they don't contradict the actual proof, as a matter of fact they are actually encouraging it. They only contradict the proof for YOUR theory and that is why you discard them, which really isn't a great way to solve things.

Golden butterflies are not magic.
Butterflies have all kinds of crazy colors.
For example http://andyserrano.deviantart.com/art/Nikko-Golden-Butterfly-110471340

Ryukishi also has said that the glittering golden butterflies don't exist on Rokenjima and that they symbolize the fact that the narrative gets distorted. Oh, but he's a total liar and Dumbledore is straight so scratch that.

Let's assume they are real butterflies. HOW ON EARTH did the culprit find so many of them in the middle of a typhoon and throw them into the study?

Narrative mentions simultaneous interaction of Shannon and Kanon with people other than Battler a lot.

Like Genji and Kumasawa, who actually know they are the same person.

Narrative also mentions a great deal of people witnessing Zombie-Kanon and the Seven Stakes, don't lets be silly.

Narrative obviously lies a lot in fantasy scenes.

In fantasy scenes. And those scenes usually have some way to link to reality. What I mean is that the narrative never lies straightly. It tries to trick you but you don't get, per say, a red truth, or a scene that comes from an undoubtable source stating that Ange is the culrpit and the golden ingots are actually made of chocolate.

Being alone only counts alive people. If "I" in this sentence means the bomb than it makes sense.

So, can the red reffer to identities and personas as well? Weird, because I thought you were saying it doesn't.

haguruma

2014-04-04, 10:18

Lol, that's why I said from beginning that we can't trust manga
Like many people after the first time I mentioned it and before I am writing this again already said, this is what makes your theory so easy to attack:
You are arbitrarily deciding that the author is lying to us about the canonicity of a part of his own work. If what you claim wa true, he is not putting in red herrings to throw us off, he is literally lying to our faces. This is basically making any theory useless, even yours, because everything could be just one big lie made up by the author.
The solution could just as well be gender-swapped Gohda-trice sitting in an insane asylum and smearing the story on the walls with feces :rolleyes:

Because it's proclaimed at ep4, that means that "This applies to all games" which exist at that time, so only ep1-4.
This would run counter to the necessity of saying in EP5 that "up until now you Battler have been the detective."

You are simply taking words out of context here.
Just because a word by itself can mean something, doesn't allow you to discard the rest. The same goes for sentences.
You're problem, though, is one of translation-decay.
While the Witch Hunt translation is incredibly well done, it cannot cover every small difference in implication a word carries and while the translations went along a lot of changes were necessary in order to cover new information that occured in syndication. So a lot of your information also depends on when you read Umineko.
The team also had to come up with sentences that still sounded like actual English, not some strange Engrish gibberish, so fine details automatically had to land on the cutting room floor.

The original sentence from EP4 for example is:
そなたの罪で、人が死ぬ。
そなたの罪により、この島の人間が、大勢死ぬ。誰も逃さぬ、全て死ぬ。
Due to your sin people die.
Because of your sin, the humans on this island, they die in great numbers. No one is allowed to escape (also: no one is let free), all (in grammatical reference to: the humans) die.

And to reply to GoldenLand:
朱志香の死体発見時、朱志香の部屋にいたのは、戦人、譲治、真里亞、楼座、源次、郷田、紗音、熊沢、南條のみだった。
死体の朱志香ももちろん含む。
Translates to:
At the time of discovering Jessica's corpse, the people within Jessica's room were, Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, Nanjo alone.
Jessica the corpse is of course included as well.

The problem with this is, if the theory of Kanon disguised as Jessica were true, then this sentence would claim that the disguised corpse does not exist in the room, but instead Jessica (who is not a corpse).

But that would run counter to:
よって、朱志香の部屋の件、そしてこの使用人室の件の両方について、そなたが認識していた以外の人間は存在しない。
誰も隠れていない。
Therefore, in both the case of Jessica's room, and the case of this servant room, there exists no human outside of those you have recognized.
Nobody is hiding (gramatically connected to: during the time the cases of discovering the rooms occured)
If Jessica were to exist in that room but is not a corpse, and the corpse that Battler sees is actually Kanon, then there would have to be a Jessica who is being recognized by Battler as being present who is actually the Jessica who is not a corpse.
Terrible circular logic...but grammar defeats this argument quite effectively if we focus only on Red Truth.

Not to speak of the (apparently lying) EP8 manga, which claims:
嘉音は朱志香の部屋で朱志香と共に死亡した！
Kanon died in Jessica's room together with Jessica!

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
The often discussed question wether Knox and Dine applies is, I think, also quite well tackled in the EP8 manga during the chapter Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy.
During these chapters the goats attack with different theories, each giving different characters the chance to attack them. When the final goat attacks and claims that it is all useless and this is neither a mystery nor a fantasy, but simply real mass-murder, all characters are helpless and the only thing capable to stand up to it is Battler with his Golden Truth.

I think it is really dependent on what you attempt to take from it. If you decide that the story is a mystery, then it has to go conform with the rules of said genre (according to Umineko), if it is not then you have to adapt your theory accordingly.
Thus neither Knox nor Dine help us with figuring out the truth, not unless we assume that reality happened just like a mystery.

GoldenLand

2014-04-04, 11:56

Thanks for the clarification about the red, Haguruma!

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
The often discussed question wether Knox and Dine applies is, I think, also quite well tackled in the EP8 manga during the chapter Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy.
During these chapters the goats attack with different theories, each giving different characters the chance to attack them. When the final goat attacks and claims that it is all useless and this is neither a mystery nor a fantasy, but simply real mass-murder, all characters are helpless and the only thing capable to stand up to it is Battler with his Golden Truth.

Much as I adore the VN of ep 8 as it is, the ep 8 manga just keeps getting better and better. :love: It really is the ending that the VN should have had. Really, it makes me wonder if eventually there would be some worth in making a VN patch to update the VN with the manga additions and info. Though that would take some additional writing, so would be harder than it looks.

The solution could just as well be gender-swapped Gohda-trice sitting in an insane asylum and smearing the story on the walls with feces :rolleyes:

Pfft, Magical Chef Gohda-trice would not be so inelegant. He would transform into a cloud of bread and butterflies and slip through the bars, free to wreak havoc upon anyone. With his army of sentient, magical kitchen implements, there are no mysterious murders he cannot commit. Nobody can prove that Gohda is not capable of that.

On a different note, I do think that when people propose theories which they say are the definite truth, say that the red is the only thing which is trustworthy, and rely absolutely on Ryukishi lying through his teeth in the white text and in all interviews...it is pretty much absurd.

For one thing, the red text on its own is largely worthless. It doesn't tell a full story, and even people who claim to only be going by the red are actually accepting parts of the white text as fact. For example, there is no red text saying that Maria is Rosa's daughter. But that's not a fact which people tend to dispute, and the same goes for other parts of the white text - which means that in the end theorists who claim that only red matters are actually cherry picking things from the white text which they think support their theory with the red, while claiming that the parts of the white text which don't support their theory are worthless.

Secondly, if a writer is completely and utterly untrustworthy, lying shamelessly and without a shred of truth in all the non-red materials, there's no reason whatsoever to trust the red. The red is a tool which relies upon the trust that the reader places in the writer, and the promise that the red truth is the truth is...written in white text. And the writer in this case has gone to pains to make it clear that the mystery isn't one that can be solved if you only care about the red and disregard the white text.

http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7366.html

R: The Red Text rule can only be established if you trust Beato. No matter how honest Battler is, a promise to speak only the truth is too much. They can argue about this point forever, but in EP2 Battler has already accepted this rule early on. Although even Beato herself cannot prove her Red Text is the truth, in the end, without trust, the Red Text battle with Beato would not be possible.

K: More people are holding the belief that "anything that is not in Red cannot be trusted."

R: Definitely. Doubting all the white text as a strategy is really fascinating.

K: It's certainly one way to go.

R: But at the same time, the suspicion of whether or not the Red Text can be fully believed also arises. It's similar to how we believe newspaper reports as truth and tabloid reports as rumours; it is our ability to determine right and wrong. There might be some discussion of the like in EP4. In essence, whether or not one decides to believe in the author determines the interest level of the mystery story. Now I understand why in mystery novel ads plastered on trains, the author's name is always bigger than the title. Other novels usually have the title in larger font, but it's the opposite for mystery novels. The underlying meaning isn't just about whether we should believe the Red Text or not, but we also see the trust relationship between the player and Beato.

K: I think believing in the Red Text is the right way to handle "Umineko" and Beato's chessboard. At the time EP2 were released, many people didn't believe in the Red Text. It was surprising because I believed in Beato's promise about the rule of the game being sacred.

R: But that promise is written in white (smile).

K: Really in white (smile). But I still believe it even if it's in white. Since Beato has invited us into the game, we should accept her challenge and respect the rules.

R: Right. The game cannot go on if a two-way trust relation cannot be established. Battler sees Beato as a good opponent, but at the same time it contradicts his action to disprove witches. It's like preventing oneself from being scammed; the most important thing is not to subjectively reject everything the other person says. If you haven't even listened to what the other is saying yet, then it couldn't possibly turn into a scam.

Renall

2014-04-04, 14:57

I understand that. But same can be said about the scene when Battler is being told that he is not the son of Asumu, right? He believes he is, so he...should be able to say the red, but he chocked. Shouldn't the same happen in the scene we are discussing now?
It's kind of an explicit plot hole because the Red's pretty inconsistent, especially between the first part and Chiru. Considering the existence of Logic Errors, it seems evident that Beatrice forced him to choke.
Actually this part is interesting because it kind of doesn't make sense... unless we take it to mean that a person can state a subjective or objective truth in red and their ability to do so actually turns upon their intention.

For example, if Battler were to say in red "I am Ushiromiya Asumu's son," I think he probably could, if what he was trying to say is "Asumu was the person I called my mother and she's the one who raised me." Lots of people who are adopted refer to their parents as their parents, and they're not wrong; for example, if legally adopted the law would say that their adoptive parents indeed are their parents. The issue in ep4 is that Battler is attempting to make a statement about an objective physical truth regarding whether Asumu gave birth to him.

We see this come up in ep6 as well, where Battler and Erika quibble over the red definition of "person" versus "body." This is the first time anyone's really demanded a strict physical definition and Battler agrees to abide by it. Arguably, this is the very reason a Logic Error exists at all, as had Battler not agreed to a hard definition of "exist" then he could've argued some silliness like "Battler gave up his name and hid under the bed, so he wasn't Battler anymore and Battler didn't exist in the room." The red truth can be entirely subjective or this entire sequence of back-and-forth between Battler and Erika makes no sense. If red truth is non-subjective and not subject to interpretation then Battler's red statements mean the same thing regardless of how Erika requests that he define the terms he uses. Since she does do this, and it changes how things work, it's clear that red is subjective and Erika knew or suspected as much, and Battler confirms this by agreeing with her.

That said, using "dead" to mean something other than dead is blatant authorial cheating and opens up all sorts of cans of worms, but that's bad writing, not a sign that the true solution is still out there.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-04, 15:19

The solution could just as well be gender-swapped Gohda-trice sitting in an insane asylum and smearing the story on the walls with feces :rolleyes:

WHYYY WHYYY WHYYY WOULD YOU DO THIS TO ME??? I CAN'T GET THE IMAGE OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!!!

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
The often discussed question wether Knox and Dine applies is, I think, also quite well tackled in the EP8 manga during the chapter Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy.
During these chapters the goats attack with different theories, each giving different characters the chance to attack them. When the final goat attacks and claims that it is all useless and this is neither a mystery nor a fantasy, but simply real mass-murder, all characters are helpless and the only thing capable to stand up to it is Battler with his Golden Truth.
This seriously makes me look all the more forward to the scanlation of EP8.

And also kind of pissed.... Ending the series in a way that you know will dissatisfy readers is one thing, could even be said that it was his right. However, when you yourself and your audience have invested so much time and thought in such a long (and definitely well-loved) work, isn't it like a huge middle finger to everyone to just end it so sloppily? Couldn't he give EP8 (and arguably, all of Chiru) some more quality time and work? I heard somewhere that an average Chiru Episode took Ryukishi one month to write. Which is amazing to some extent, but also seems very.... unprofessional.

As much as I liked EP8, it was very very sloppily done, and it definitely had a lot of potential which it didn't live up to. It's a really good thing that the manga is making up for it, but there shouldn't be a need to do so in the first place.

Renall

2014-04-04, 15:25

As I understand it he wanted to do a Comiket release and missing a Comiket deadline means waiting at least another 6 months for the second Comiket of the year (or first of the next, whatever). So money was kind of riding on it. On the other hand he's a semi-independent doujin author so it's not like he was really running against strict corporate deadlines or anything.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-04, 15:42

jjblue1

2014-04-04, 17:11

battle22
while I was writing a response to you I decided to reread the part about Kanon's death in ep1, and found a curious fact.
After they found Kanon injured in the boiler room, Nanjo and George took him to the servants room, and after that George and Jessica helped Nanjo to treat Kanon. And Nanjo said that Kanon had a very serious wound, so Shkanon doesn't match here at least, unless you suggest that George and Jessica are accomplices as well as Nanjo.

Hum... from your reply I've the feeling you doesn't have a full knowledge of the details of the ShKanon theory and of the other sources of info.

I'll toss him some details.
In the ShKanon's theory the murderer who kills off screen is always the same for all the murders. This doesn't stop others from killing on screen (Eva shoots Battler in Ep 3).
Nanjo, Genji, Kumasawa and Gohda are hired as accomplices in all the games.
Kumasawa and Gohda believe however that it's all a mystery game and people are faking being dead.
Genji is supposed to be in out of loyalty (no official confirmation yet from the manga) and Nanjo is supposed to either have been blackmailed or bribed (he has a sick granchild and he had been bribed more than once through his life).

In addition to those regular accomplices Yasu, according to the gamboards, choses some adults to bribe/blackmail. In Ep 5, the most obvious of the boards, Natsuhi was blackmailed while the adults were 'hired' in exchange of info over Kinzo's death and the promise of the gold.
Often people doesn't know she's killing for real but think it's all make ups and fake corpses.
Maria always helps as she believes in Beatrice and in the fact she'll take her in the Golden Land where her mother will be more loving.
Occasionally George and Jessica are also hired under the belief of taking part to a game.

Lol, that's why I said from beginning that we can't trust manga.
She accepts testimony that he's in the back without seeing him?
Are we really talking about Erika here?
Doesn't she have perfect sight and hearing? And always looking out for clues?

Yes, we're talking of the Erika who didn't check the corpses and bladantly ignored the riddle of who placed the letter during the trial. The Erika who accepts that Kinzo walks around moving corpses while at the same time managing to not let even a clue for her HE was the one walking around.

Erika is out on searching clues when she can't rely on red or when it can be useful for her theory. She isn't ALWAYS out searching for them.

In addition Erika accepted in the VN testimony for things she couldn't know... like that the adults found an envelope out of the door.

But what's the most important is that PieceErika and MetaErika weren't present when it was said everyone was gathered in the parlour so Erika didn't know about this. Bern withold from her informations so that she would propose a solution of Bern's liking and not necessarily the truth (Bern knows Kinzo is dead but she wants a solution that says Kinzo was Natsuhi's lover and accomplice).

So Erika had no idea she had to check this apparently harmless piece of info and didn't do it.

I understand that. But same can be said about the scene when Battler is being told that he is not the son of Asumu, right? He believes he is, so he...should be able to say the red, but he chocked. Shouldn't the same happen in the scene we are discussing now?

Nope because the question was if he was born from Asumu while he was the detective and couldn't say falsehood so he couldn't use red to claim he believed he was born from Asumu.

I think the red in Ep 5 refers to the fact 'he claimed he saw Kinzo' which is true. However he was "mistaken" (or whatever else) and what he saw wasn't really Kinzo.
Alternatively the trick is similar to the one used in Natsuhi's room when Erika checked if it was possible that Natsuhi were to call the room 'Kinzo'. He saw someone else, knew he saw someone else but insisted he saw Kinzo because he labelled that person as 'Kinzo' as per previous agreement or sudden impulse.
So he saw someone he arbitrarily decided to call "Kinzo" even if the name "Kinzo" doesn't belong to that person.

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
The often discussed question wether Knox and Dine applies is, I think, also quite well tackled in the EP8 manga during the chapter Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy.
During these chapters the goats attack with different theories, each giving different characters the chance to attack them. When the final goat attacks and claims that it is all useless and this is neither a mystery nor a fantasy, but simply real mass-murder, all characters are helpless and the only thing capable to stand up to it is Battler with his Golden Truth.

I think it is really dependent on what you attempt to take from it. If you decide that the story is a mystery, then it has to go conform with the rules of said genre (according to Umineko), if it is not then you have to adapt your theory accordingly.
Thus neither Knox nor Dine help us with figuring out the truth, not unless we assume that reality happened just like a mystery.

Again thank you so much for translating this lovely bits from the manga which is really making everything so much better. Really, the manga is totally awesome in how it "clears the board" and answers to everything.

battle22

2014-04-04, 17:12

I think he did miss a winter Comiket with RGD because of health problems(?). I'm not sure if that was the reason, but I'm almost certain he didn't attend one. If he could afford to do this with RGD, then he certainly could hold Umineko's finale up if it would help achieve a greater quality and include more things. Since it was the finale, you would assume he'd try to make everything perfect.

I hear that people had a horrible reaction to EP7 regarding Yasu's gender. And Ryu tried to rush it and end it as soon as possible.

Can anyone back this up?

jjblue1

2014-04-04, 17:25

I hear that people had a horrible reaction to EP7 regarding Yasu's gender. And Ryu tried to rush it and end it as soon as possible.

Can anyone back this up?

I've also heard about the bad reaction people had in regards to Yasu's gender at least on 2ch where the idea seemed to generate horror and disgust.
I don't know if this pushed Ryukishi to end it as fast as he could, but I've heard when it was a delay in handing either the new Higurashi or Umineko at Comiket Ryukishi had troubles (can't remember well the details, sorry) so I guess he really didn't want to delay Ep 8 any further?

Renall

2014-04-04, 17:32

I think he did miss a winter Comiket with RGD because of health problems(?). I'm not sure if that was the reason, but I'm almost certain he didn't attend one. If he could afford to do this with RGD, then he certainly could hold Umineko's finale up if it would help achieve a greater quality and include more things. Since it was the finale, you would assume he'd try to make everything perfect.
RGD was written after Umineko, so it could just be that he learned his lesson with ep8 and chose not to rush RGD if circumstances prevented him from finishing it properly.

haguruma

2014-04-04, 18:09

I've also heard about the bad reaction people had in regards to Yasu's gender at least on 2ch where the idea seemed to generate horror and disgust.
Well, 2ch is always a hellhole, so you can't really go by that. They scream horror and apocalypse if a woman dares so much as to step out of the kitchen or a foreigner dares to do anything remotely challenging the perceived outsider-norm...not to talk even of most of their ideas of gender-identity. It's basically as qualitatively well-rounded as taking a step into a newspaper comment-section.

I can imagine though that he got quite tired of Umineko in the way it was done then, considering how much he hammered on tha large masses being slobbering goats...I think there was a bit of frustration that the whole game got so negatively out of hand at certain points.
Ending it in the VN kinda gave him a little leeway to recreate it in the manga I suppose, because by now only those that are actually interested or new readers would be following.

EDIT: Btw. for those interested. I caved and bought the Kindle-version of vol.4 of the EP8 manga...and since it's the first time I'm properly reading those chapters (not tachiyomi or Chinese scans I only half understand) I am again surprised by how much more dramatic those chapters are within the restructured plot...
Details will probably follow

jjblue1

2014-04-04, 18:20

Well, 2ch is always a hellhole, so you can't really go by that. They scream horror and apocalypse if a woman dares so much as to step out of the kitchen or a foreigner dares to do anything remotely challenging the perceived outsider-norm...not to talk even of most of their ideas of gender-identity. It's basically as qualitatively well-rounded as taking a step into a newspaper comment-section.

I can imagine though that he got quite tired of Umineko in the way it was done then, considering how much he hammered on tha large masses being slobbering goats...I think there was a bit of frustration that the whole game got so negatively out of hand at certain points.
Ending it in the VN kinda gave him a little leeway to recreate it in the manga I suppose, because by now only those that are actually interested or new readers would be following.

2ch seems quite a scary place...
Well, I think Umineko was a work that should have exhausted him. Maybe it's just me but it looks much more complex than Higurashi and requiring a lot of extra work to make sure everything fit as well as making up characters and so on.

It can entirely be he just wanted... to end it.

Considering also there wasn't going to be a second anime series and that he had to compromise with his original idea maybe he felt a little disappointed and discouraged.

Honestly it's a pity Chiru didn't get animated but I'm re-reading the VN while re-watching the anime and re-reading the manga and while the manga, with some up and down, can be considered a decent transposition the anime is... a poor summary at best which prefers to fevote more attention to female breasts than to the plot.

Though, truth to be told, as far as I'm involved the second series of Higurashi was better drawn than the first so maybe Umineko could have been improved in Chiru...

*sighs* I wish they would collect the Pachinko animation in one OAV. So far it seems much better than the anime.

jjblue1

2014-04-06, 19:20

Random question is random.

In Ep 1 they talk about how several years ago Jessica began to give suggestions to Shannon about how to act around George. I was wondering if in the original text is made clear Shannon was talking about George or if it was just Jessica who assumed it because after Shannon mentioned George.

Because Shannon started growing interested in George around 1984 so it's not really several years ago... so I've been wondering if Shannon was actually thinking at Battler and Jessica assumed instead she was thinking at George and us readers were further mislead into thinking Shannon was referring to George by Ep 2.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-07, 06:22

I looked up the scene in question. Here is what Jessica specifically says:

"...............Well, I......several years ago, I had a talk with Shannon....About you, George nii-san."

"......I wonder what she could have said."

"............Shannon was always really bad at lying. Once she started talking about you, it was instantly obvious.............She asked whether it would be okay if she herself...with only the status of a servant, could get close to you.......She asked about stuff like what kind of things do boys like, and what kind of clothes should she wear would make them happy, lots of stuff like that.
...............How should I say it? Well, I was jealous of her."

Other than the 'once she started talking about you' part, I'd say nothing in the scene conclusively points towards George. If that wasn't mentioned, it might not be much of a stretch to say Jessica only assumes that she was talking about George, but we see that his name did come up in the discussion.

Btw, a bit irrelevant, about the red truth matter that was discussed above, in EP4 Beatrice makes a red statement about Sakutaro having been made by Rosa and being unique in the entire world. EP8 manga clearly confrims the opposite. So we can take it that the red is completely subjective, right?

theacefrehley

2014-04-07, 10:41

I guess Beatrice chokes before finishing her line about Sakutaro in EP4

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-07, 10:52

I'm pretty sure she doesn't.

Renall

2014-04-07, 11:24

I think that goes with the whole "later truths override the truths of the past" and "some red speaks to a game, some red speaks to reality."

Beatrice/Yasu believes Sakutarou is unique and made by Rosa because Rosa told Maria that, Maria believed it, and Maria told Beatrice that. In Beatrice's eyes, that is the truth. Ange knows that none of that is true, so once Ange's truth becomes overriding then Beatrice can no longer state it because it's factually false in the broader sense of the world at large.

Or something along those lines.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-07, 13:46

In that case, isn't Battler's inability to state in red that 'it was from Ushiromiya Asumu that he was born' sort of a plot hole? This is the truth in his eyes, so he should be able to say it.... Except if Beatrice knowing it isn't true renders him unable to do so (although how would Yasu know such a thing is beyond me, it's unlikely anyone but Rudolf and the doctors made the exchange would know).

Also, he is able to make this statement:
Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.
It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born

The first one can sort of be explained if we go by the persona logic, saying that since Asumu raised him and loved him as his mother she is qualified to the title 'mother' and therefore the red reffers to her as that.

But does the second one reffer to the stillborn child? Because if so, it is really shitty. It might make sense if, per say, Rudolf or Asumu had expressed a desire to name their first child Battler no matter what or something, but there's no reason for the dead baby to also have the name Battler.

P.S: A little bit irrelvant but re-reading that scene, an interesting thing I noticed is that it looks like the Meta representation of Yasu trying to delude herself that this man who does not remember the promise must not be the real Battler, which I really hadn't picked up before.

Renall

2014-04-07, 14:20

Well, if Beatrice is even able to use that logic then someone who feeds information to Meta-Beatrice is aware of Battler's unusual birth circumstances. Beatrice wouldn't have even tried to use the argument if she didn't know, because like Battler she'd just assume that Asumu did give birth to him. I don't know how Beatrice/Yasu knew, but apparently she did know.

Maybe Genji got tied up in the baby swap nonsense at some point or another and was supposed to keep his mouth shut about it but told Yasu because he tells Yasu everything. Maybe Yasu did some digging. Maybe it's information from the future where the baby swap was better-known... although in that case Sakutarou's non-uniqueness also ought to have been known to Beatrice so maybe not.

haguruma

2014-04-07, 15:07

Well, if Beatrice is even able to use that logic then someone who feeds information to Meta-Beatrice is aware of Battler's unusual birth circumstances.
Well, the question here is also whether we can really equate Meta-Beatrice and Yasu to the degree that it really tells us something about what Yasu on the island knew.
I'm working my way through being able to show some stuff from EP8 manga's chapters 12-24 (and maybe 25-27 once I'm back in Japan), but to say that beforehand, it is made quite clear that "Beato" and "that person" are two distinct entities.

We can probably assume that the Beatrice who fights Battler in EP4 is only born out of the "Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case" discourse from around 1988 onwards and Tohya's reading of the message bottles as well as his own thoughts and Battler's memories.
It's kinda weird logic in a way, but I think it's more Tohya remembering that there was something off about Battler's connection to the family and thought it an excuse to escape the game as well. If Ushiromiya Battler was not Ushiromiya Battler then Hachijo Tohya has no obligation towards whatever that weird person on an island in 1986 was demanding of "him".

theacefrehley

2014-04-07, 15:20

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only[,]

I dont have the game now, but, yes, Beatrice cant say the whole phrase, and stops midway.

And there's a chapter in ep8 manga that explains how Beatrice got to know about the baby swap (via furniture = Genji)
It's chapter 7 of ep8

jjblue1

2014-04-07, 15:56

Technically considering the Meta doesn't really exist but it's probably part of someone's fantasy is possible that the characters are built up with certain knowleges while missing certain others.

MetaBattler is created with the knowledge Ushiromiya Battler had in 1986, a time in which it's assumed he had no idea his mother wasn't Asumu.

However whoever created the Meta (let's assume is Tohya) also know Battler is Kyrie's son and that Sakutarou isn't handmade.
This person might have decided that MetaBeatrice might have been aware of the truth behind Battler's birth because... let's say Rudolf bribed the hospital doctor by using Kinzo's money and name and therefore it was possible Beatrice was informed by Genji as Ange speculated... or maybe Rudolf tattled the truth out to Krauss or Kinzo when he went to talk with them about how Asumu died and Battler left him and was overheard.

In short he deemed possible for Beatrice to know this truth. However Beatrice... (and her human vessel) lives secluded on Rokkenjima and she was feed false informations from Maria so, who created MetaBeatrice assumed Beatrice couldn't know this truth about Sakutarou.

Since MetaBeatrice and MetaBattler aren't RealBattler and RealBeatrice the knowledge of both can be speculated by who created them... or it can match the real knowledge they had in 1986 which is of course less powerfull than the knowledge of truth Ange has in 1998.

I looked up the scene in question. Here is what Jessica specifically says:

"...............Well, I......several years ago, I had a talk with Shannon....About you, George nii-san."

"......I wonder what she could have said."

"............Shannon was always really bad at lying. Once she started talking about you, it was instantly obvious.............She asked whether it would be okay if she herself...with only the status of a servant, could get close to you.......She asked about stuff like what kind of things do boys like, and what kind of clothes should she wear would make them happy, lots of stuff like that.
...............How should I say it? Well, I was jealous of her."

Other than the 'once she started talking about you' part, I'd say nothing in the scene conclusively points towards George. If that wasn't mentioned, it might not be much of a stretch to say Jessica only assumes that she was talking about George, but we see that his name did come up in the discussion.

Yes, that's what I had speculated also from the translation but I wanted to know if the original Japanese test also supported this interpretation or pinned George with more certainity.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-08, 06:50

Technically considering the Meta doesn't really exist but it's probably part of someone's fantasy is possible that the characters are built up with certain knowleges while missing certain others.

The thing is, the actual Yasu seems to know the truth about Battler's birth. It is hinted in EP1 which is written by her that Rudolf is hiding something from Kyrie and wants to confess, and EP8 indirectly confirms it was this.

And there's a chapter in ep8 manga that explains how Beatrice got to know about the baby swap (via furniture = Genji)
It's chapter 7 of ep8

That really seems to be way too convenient. Do the Ushiromiyas just go ahead and tell Genji everything? Okay, in Kinzo's case, Genji is his close friend and he needed his assistance to carry the entire Kuwadorian scheme out, but why is Battler's birth something that Genji would need to know? Interestingly enough, the person Rosa tells all about the Kuwadorian Beatrice that very same night is again Genji... really, Genji is some handy furniture.

If Genji ever decided to tell everything he knows about the family to the press, or even better, blackmail them to keep his mouth shut, he could make a pretty decent living....

I dont have the game now, but, yes, Beatrice cant say the whole phrase, and stops midway.

Yeah, you're right, turns out she does choke. But does that annule the rest of the phrase she managed to say or not? It really is unclear.

Renall

2014-04-08, 08:12

That really seems to be way too convenient. Do the Ushiromiyas just go ahead and tell Genji everything? Okay, in Kinzo's case, Genji is his close friend and he needed his assistance to carry the entire Kuwadorian scheme out, but why is Battler's birth something that Genji would need to know? Interestingly enough, the person Rosa tells all about the Kuwadorian Beatrice that very same night is again Genji... really, Genji is some handy furniture.
It's almost like... Genji is some kind of... plot device, a convenient way to explain how information that would otherwise be unknown to any but the person experiencing something is available to the characters that will convey it to the reader!

But I suppose "Genji got in on the baby swap shenanigans" is easier to swallow than "Yasu just coincidentally happened to be digging into information on the parents and somehow discovered evidence of the baby swap" or something. Then again, if it's in ep4 I suppose Yasu didn't really have to know it at all; somebody at the hospital could've told a TV program about it after the incident for money or whatever. It doesn't seem like something that would've been especially relevant to the weekend to anyone but Rudolf, who was about to tell Kyrie and Battler anyway. And if Battler were told, it would allow Tohya to (potentially) know it.

theacefrehley

2014-04-08, 09:19

Yeah, you're right, turns out she does choke. But does that annule the rest of the phrase she managed to say or not? It really is unclear.

Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the one

Of course it annules. It's one incomplete phrase.
Even if not, it's a loose phrase that can mean anything. That something was made by Rosa, and is unique in the world. Not necessarily Sakutaro.

Unless she is faking the choking, but that would only make things contradict with ep8

And Battler would be Asumu's son
The original goes (if my memory does not fail): ore wa (I) asumu kara (from asumu) umare- (was bo-) *choke*

theacefrehley

2014-04-08, 09:28

But I suppose "Genji got in on the baby swap shenanigans" is easier to swallow than "Yasu just coincidentally happened to be digging into information on the parents and somehow discovered evidence of the baby swap" or something. Then again, if it's in ep4 I suppose Yasu didn't really have to know it at all; somebody at the hospital could've told a TV program about it after the incident for money or whatever. It doesn't seem like something that would've been especially relevant to the weekend to anyone but Rudolf, who was about to tell Kyrie and Battler anyway. And if Battler were told, it would allow Tohya to (potentially) know it.

In that same manga chapter I mentioned, Ange says that this baby swap is known in the future world. People investigated the lives of the relatives and the doctor confessed the swap.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-08, 11:41

It's almost like... Genji is some kind of... plot device, a convenient way to explain how information that would otherwise be unknown to any but the person experiencing something is available to the characters that will convey it to the reader!

That really is a crying shame. Genji is so close to the core of the mystery and pretty much everything else that happens in the island yet he always keeps silent. And it's a pity because a guy like that could make for a great and interesting character.... supposing he actually does have one and isn't actually a talking wardrobe.

In that same manga chapter I mentioned, Ange says that this baby swap is known in the future world. People investigated the lives of the relatives and the doctor confessed the swap.

Oh yeah, I seem to recall that manga chapter, I actually did read it. But it doesn't really explain why Genji would know, which is a part which really needed to be expanded. We also don't know what impact that had on Yasu, because it must have been important. She must have really flipped out to learn that Battler's six year absence could have been avoided, and probably give birth to many negative feelings against Rudolf.

On that note, I really like the tender way Rudolf seems to think of Asumu in the manga (that's actually the first time we're given any insight on their relationsip btw). Kyrie's description of her actually gives the impression of a very sneaky and annoying woman but well, how partial could Kyrie be? For example, Battler's brief description of her in EP4 makes her seem quite nice. I'd really like to see how she would behave in one of the past family conferences and how she'd fit in... and actually who she was at all. She's kinda important, especially because she cultivates the main character's personality and affects his behavior so much, but she's never actually given credit for it.

Also, her depiction in the manga looks an awful lot like Beatrice.... which I'm not sure what is supposed to say about Battler. :eyebrow:

theacefrehley

2014-04-08, 12:24

My guess is that Rudolf was not old enough at the time, or at least didn't have money of his own to be throwing around, so he had to rely on Kinzo's help (which automatically means Genji will know everything). If Kinzo was already going too mad at the time, then I guess Genji would 'kind of' assume Kinzo's place and deal with the problem himself, to protect the family name, or something.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-08, 12:42

I personally like to think that Rudolf told Kinzo over beer or something:
"Hahahaha, that's my boy!!! Seriously, I just had an incest daughter/son with my bastard child which I hid in a mansion on this very island and stuff, but swapping babies, ahahaha, that takes the cake!!!"
"You had a what?"
"Nothing..."

And that's how the secret leaked....

jjblue1

2014-04-08, 17:37

The thing is, the actual Yasu seems to know the truth about Battler's birth. It is hinted in EP1 which is written by her that Rudolf is hiding something from Kyrie and wants to confess, and EP8 indirectly confirms it was this.

It can be. As I said it was possible for Yasu to know the truth so all the more she might have known it.

That really seems to be way too convenient. Do the Ushiromiyas just go ahead and tell Genji everything? Okay, in Kinzo's case, Genji is his close friend and he needed his assistance to carry the entire Kuwadorian scheme out, but why is Battler's birth something that Genji would need to know? Interestingly enough, the person Rosa tells all about the Kuwadorian Beatrice that very same night is again Genji... really, Genji is some handy furniture.

If Genji ever decided to tell everything he knows about the family to the press, or even better, blackmail them to keep his mouth shut, he could make a pretty decent living....

Well, Genji is deeply trusted. Even Rosa believed he would help her when she told him Beatrice died instead than just tattling it out to Kinzo.

I don't think Genji would need to know it but it can be that:
- Rudolf told Kinzo or Krauss or both the truth when he married Kyrie and one of them ended up tattling it out to Genji in a 'oh Rudolf always gets himself in troubles but I would have never thought he would go so far as to swap his children' fashion.
- Actually, like Rosa, Rudolf needed a confidant and picked up Genji because who's better at listening you than a furniture?

It can be Genji was subconsciously considered by the siblings much more of a father figure than Kinzo himself so when they had a trouble they were used to go to Genji and he would solve it or, at least, listen to them.
At the same time though, they thought of him as inferior because he's a servant so they never quite managed a loving bond but at least they trusted him blindly enough to tell him their secrets.

Though it's also possible that it was Yasu who eavesdropped a converstaion between the adults when she heard Battler's name and ended up discovering the truth on Battler's birth. But I tend to go to what the manga said. Genji ended up on knowing and Beatrice/Yasu might have asked him for more information about Battler and he might have ended up telling her.

Interesting enough I'd like to know Genji's position in Yasu's love affairs. I mean, the ones she's crushing after are her cousins, but also her nephews/niece.
While Japan has no problems accepting love between cousins love between aunt/uncle and nephew/niece is considered incest in the same way as father/daughter and we know although Genji didn't comment he didn't approve.

It'll be interesting if actually Battler wrote Shannon a letter or even more than one JUST AFTER he left the family (and not years later like he did for his cousins) and Genji had the letter be hidden/destroyed in hope this will keep Shannon and Battler apart... only to find out George would pursue her.
LOL, maybe he was the one suggesting Eva to marry off George to another girl so that Kinzo will find him a better heir or something in hope to keep George as well away from Shannon... and when this didn't work he decided to tattle out the full truth about her body and what her father did to her.

I mean... she didn't really need to know she was an incest baby and that the relation between her mother and her father might have been not consensual... it could have been enough to tell her that Kinzo wanted to apologize because he failed to protect Beatrice and legalize her position as his second wife or something.

Unless it was Kinzo who got into details she would have had no ways to find the truth out hadn't Genji, Kumasawa or Nanjo told her.
Same goes for the truth about how Kinzo got the gold. They could have handed her Ep 7 version instead than the brutal truth.

However Genji told her and caused her to end up feeling a strong disgust for Kinzo and his blood, maybe in hope to push her to act differently and stay away from the people that were related to her by blood. Not that it worked.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-09, 01:52

It'll be interesting if actually Battler wrote Shannon a letter or even more than one JUST AFTER he left the family (and not years later like he did for his cousins) and Genji had the letter be hidden/destroyed in hope this will keep Shannon and Battler apart... only to find out George would pursue her.
LOL, maybe he was the one suggesting Eva to marry off George to another girl so that Kinzo will find him a better heir or something in hope to keep George as well away from Shannon... and when this didn't work he decided to tattle out the full truth about her body and what her father did to her.

That would be the most amazing character ever written!!!!

In all seriousness though, how much of this did Genji actually know? If my memory doesn't fail me, I don't recall anything in the narrative suggesting Genji knew about it, or if he did, he didn't actually have any say whatsoever. I mean, he was okay about Kinzo raping his daughter and he willingly helped out with a plan to murder the entire family and blow the island up without any protests, so I trust nephew incest would be something he'd take quite naturally.

Seriously though, evil-behind-the-scenes-mastermind Genji! I love this idea! Just imagine what new ways that would create to play with Ronove's part....

GoldenLand

2014-04-09, 14:18

In some ways, we can say that Genji's a completely boring walking plot device. In another way, we can say that he's a goldmine of untapped potential. He could be the best evil mastermind to walk the island.

Genji's probably really chill about things like baby swapping. Hell, he's probably relieved that none of Kinzo's children went in for imprisoning and molesting their children on an island. Kinzo gave his own kid with a mistress to be raised by Krauss and Natsuhi in circumstances where it would have been awkward if the truth was revealed. Rudolf gives his child with a mistress to his wife in circumstances where the truth would have been awkward. Only thing is that Asumu was never told about it...

I do wonder what time Grandmother Ushiromiya died at. She was alive at the time when Rosa ran into the forest and met Beatrice 2. Battler describes her as long dead, and my impression is that she was still alive at some point during Battler's childhood, but I can't be certain of that. In any case, it seems likely that she was still around at the time when Natsuhi was given the baby to raise. It's been stated that she had an inferiority complex in reaction to her belief that Kinzo was cheating on her, and the lines about "Anyway, ...there's a good chance that this love was mutual, unlike with Mother" would seem to imply that she did love Kinzo.

So it's rather an omission that we never got to see her reaction to Natsuhi being given a child to raise by Kinzo, unless she was away from home at the time. I suppose it would have complicated the story about Natsuhi and the baby if somebody else with issues about the adoption was present. There's no way she wouldn't have suspected that her own descendents were being bypassed by Kinzo, having the child of a mistress of Kinzo placed foremost in the rankings of the family. In fact, case closed, Grandmother Ushiromiya had the best motive for throwing baby Yasu off a cliff. It's just a question of how she did it. :heh:

jjblue1

2014-04-09, 16:31

That would be the most amazing character ever written!!!!

In all seriousness though, how much of this did Genji actually know? If my memory doesn't fail me, I don't recall anything in the narrative suggesting Genji knew about it, or if he did, he didn't actually have any say whatsoever. I mean, he was okay about Kinzo raping his daughter and he willingly helped out with a plan to murder the entire family and blow the island up without any protests, so I trust nephew incest would be something he'd take quite naturally.

Seriously though, evil-behind-the-scenes-mastermind Genji! I love this idea! Just imagine what new ways that would create to play with Ronove's part....

Well, it's hinted in Ep 6 and in the Saint Valentine Tip that Yasu might have asked Genji (Ronove) and Kumasawa (Virgilia) help to prepare sweets that might have pleased Battler... and Kumasawa (Virgilia) is mostly her confidant so it might be she sort of confessed to them the truth.

Also, if George could notice the chemistry in Battler and Shannon I guess so could Kumasawa (who's prone to eavesdropping) and Genji and although they could have found it cute in the beginning they might have reconsidered when they realized the possible implications to it.

Also, Genji purposely wanted Shannon to be there for Kinzo. It's said she had to file some documents to drop her job she might have asked Genji info about what to do before she learnt Battler weren't to come back... and he might have figured out her intentions or prodded her about it and learnt about them.

So, in order to keep her there for Kinzo and to stop her from committing incest and well, finding herself in troubles when she would discover the truth about herself, he might have decided that if a letter from Battler were to arrive he would dispose of it. As Shannon generally doesn't receive mails it would stand out if she were to suddently receive a letter.

If Battler wrote her more than one letter and never received an answer he would have no reasons to write her 3 years after when he wrote to the cousins thinking she didn't reply previously because either she had left on her own or just doesn't want to talk to him. Ergo no letter for Shannon.

Well, Genji wasn't okay with Kinzo raping his daughter... he just didn't know how to say 'no' to Kinzo. Genji is more or less always supporting Kinzo even when Kinzo is doing messed up things.
It's clear Kinzo raised his children poorly but when he beats up Krauss in front of Eva and then feel sick and asks Genji what did he do wrong to have such horrible kids Genji tells him he's blameless. He also tells him, after he dies, he surely ahve been forgiven.

Genji is, toward Kinzo, the sort of mom that know his kid is messing up but... well, he's her kid and she doesn't have the heart to scold him.

I think Genji had much more potential but Umineko ended up dropping him somehow. Even Ep 7 doesn't really talk much about Genji. He's mostly always covering Kinzo's back. Honestly I'm not surprised there's who speculated Genji suffered of unrequired love for Kinzo... who instead was obsessed with Beatrice.
He seems happy when he can see Kinzo in Battler and Ronove even tried hitting on Battler.

Only thing is that Asumu was never told about it...

Honestly I've the feeling that Asumu figured out or was told about it but decided to continue with the pretense Battler was her child or try to. Rudolf claims she wasn't as forgiving as she looked and implied she could have a bad temper.
He also seems to feel guilty about her dead, which makes me wonder how exactly Asumu died as it seems a pretty sudden death since Kyrie was planning to kill her when... Asumu died on her own. If she was suffering of a terminal illness I guess Kyrie would have just patiently waited instead of buying a knife.

I do wonder what time Grandmother Ushiromiya died at. She was alive at the time when Rosa ran into the forest and met Beatrice 2. Battler describes her as long dead, and my impression is that she was still alive at some point during Battler's childhood, but I can't be certain of that. In any case, it seems likely that she was still around at the time when Natsuhi was given the baby to raise. It's been stated that she had an inferiority complex in reaction to her belief that Kinzo was cheating on her, and the lines about "Anyway, ...there's a good chance that this love was mutual, unlike with Mother" would seem to imply that she did love Kinzo.

So it's rather an omission that we never got to see her reaction to Natsuhi being given a child to raise by Kinzo, unless she was away from home at the time. I suppose it would have complicated the story about Natsuhi and the baby if somebody else with issues about the adoption was present. There's no way she wouldn't have suspected that her own descendents were being bypassed by Kinzo, having the child of a mistress of Kinzo placed foremost in the rankings of the family. In fact, case closed, Grandmother Ushiromiya had the best motive for throwing baby Yasu off a cliff. It's just a question of how she did it. :heh:

There are some characters Umineko completely neglected. Battler's mother. Kinzo's wife. Maria's father. George's fiancé (which seems marginal but he had an Omiai with her in 1984 if not earlier so they've been promised for 2 years or more). Nanjo's grandaughter.
Actually maybe it would be better to say there are part of the plot Umineko completely neglected. We've no idea how Battler spent those 6 years apart for the fact he was... busy. We're told nothing about his grandparents apart that they were furious with Rudolf. We know nothing of Yasu's school life (did she have real friends? was she a good student? did she went to high school or dropped out?). Prior to the manga we weren't told much about the 6 years she spent waiting for Battler and we were told even less of her 2 last years.
And then we've caracters like Amakusa or Ikuko whose background is pretty weak.
Maybe instead than keeping on adding characters Umineko would have done well to flesh out the ones it already had.

haguruma

2014-04-10, 06:53

There are some characters Umineko completely neglected. Battler's mother. Kinzo's wife. Maria's father. George's fiancé (which seems marginal but he had an Omiai with her in 1984 if not earlier so they've been promised for 2 years or more). Nanjo's grandaughter.
While I agree that Umineko had a way too big cast to properly develop even it's central characters (especially those that joined later) and there was a ton of time spent on only vaguely important fantasy-characters...

But I'd say the problem is, that the whole story is told and "meta-"written from a very personal perspective and is to reflect the author's opinion on events within and sorrounding Rokkenjima in the past as much as the future (in-universe). Neither Battler nor Yasu actually knew much of Kinzo's wife, they probably never met Maria's father apart from 2 or 3 times when he was begging for money, Nanjo pretty much keeps his private life apart from the Rokkenjima events...Asumu is pretty much the only character from the past that could have received more development.

And just to add because there seems to be a misunderstanding: Yes, George had an Omiai...he probably had a lot of Omiais if Eva was that insistent on making him marry...but that does not mean that he was promised or anything. An Omiai is more or less informal and more like a strange mixture between a "date set-up" and an interview.

jjblue1

2014-04-10, 16:30

While I agree that Umineko had a way too big cast to properly develop even it's central characters (especially those that joined later) and there was a ton of time spent on only vaguely important fantasy-characters...

But I'd say the problem is, that the whole story is told and "meta-"written from a very personal perspective and is to reflect the author's opinion on events within and sorrounding Rokkenjima in the past as much as the future (in-universe). Neither Battler nor Yasu actually knew much of Kinzo's wife, they probably never met Maria's father apart from 2 or 3 times when he was begging for money, Nanjo pretty much keeps his private life apart from the Rokkenjima events...Asumu is pretty much the only character from the past that could have received more development.

That's true too but still I wish we could have given a look to those characters... and expecially to the ones related to Battler since he's a pretty important character.

And just to add because there seems to be a misunderstanding: Yes, George had an Omiai...he probably had a lot of Omiais if Eva was that insistent on making him marry...but that does not mean that he was promised or anything. An Omiai is more or less informal and more like a strange mixture between a "date set-up" and an interview.

Well, Ep 6 mentioned only an Omiai and then several dates with the girl of the Omiai, Ayumi. And while I get George didn't feel tied to her from the way Eva describes things it seems that George's family and Ayumi's family consider their children as already bound together which reminded me of how in the past parents were used to promise their children and marry them off without their consent. So I sort of assumed they were unofficially considered engaged by their parents.

On an interesting side note I'm re-reading Ep 1 and in it Eva says:

The culprit, ......no, culprits in the plural, would have more than enough weapons in their arsenal if that were the case. You see it, don't you? They had to assault the four in the dining hall and kill them, drag a total of six bodies all the way to the storehouse beyond the rose garden, and scribble that disgusting makeup on their faces. ......There's no way that a single culprit could carry all of this out on their own, right?

It's interesting how she refers to what had been done to the faces as 'makeup'.
I've been wondering if the setting from Ep 1 is actually very, very close to Ep 5 and she didn't believe Rudolf and Co were really dead but only playing dead and that Krauss had been replaced by a fake body and was being held captive.

In fact most of the reasoning she does with Battler seems to drop out of nowhere with her unable to explain why she thought so, as if she merely wanted to have Battler ponder on this and that.

Eva also seems very busy in trying to pin the blame on Natsuhi and seems to act as if she were suspecting Kinzo is death and we know the manga confirmed it was Yasu who told the adults Kinzo was death so... can it be that she's taking part to all this with the same mindsetting of Ep 5? Just believing this is all a plan to have Natsuhi confess?

jjblue1

2014-04-10, 18:40

The spoilers for EP 7 manga new chapter are out and show the solutions to Ep 1 of Umineko.
They confirm Shannon wasn't in the storehouse, that the chain lock of Eva and Hideyoshi room wasn't actually closed, that Kinzo was already dead, that Kanon faked being hurt and that Beatrice, before killing Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa, entered using the door like any normal person. The text probably adds some more details but I can't really read it.

Who's interested can find them here (http://beatotsundere.tumblr.com/post/82325941380/umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-chiru-ep7-requiem-of-the).

Oh, there's also a colour pic of Will that's really cool!

We're also told that Will's black sword is sort of on his back (well he retrieves it from there but the sword appears magically) while Clair's sword is her book.

There's also more talking about Yasu, who's shown using guns and whose form is the one of a faceless long blonde haired girl.

GoldenLand

2014-04-10, 21:48

battle22

2014-04-11, 05:27

he spoilers for EP 7 manga new chapter are out and show the solutions to Ep 1 of Umineko.
They confirm Shannon wasn't in the storehouse, that the chain lock of Eva and Hideyoshi room wasn't actually closed, that Kinzo was already dead, that Kanon faked being hurt and that Beatrice, before killing Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa, entered using the door like any normal person. The text probably adds some more details but I can't really read it.

But Manga isn't canon, remember ? :D (sarcasm)

haguruma

2014-04-11, 06:17

The same as always, me translating the few panels that we get...though at least I can get my hands on the magazine that EP7 runs in...so hopefully more to come during this week and more on EP8 when I'm back in Japan at the start of May.

1
Illusion to illusion
Eva and Hideyoshi were bribed by the culprit
The husk that cannot join the earth returns to illusion
The sixth corpse is a lie
2
Illusion to illusion
The servants were agreeing on a story in secret
The chain of illusion can only lock in illusions
The chain had not been set from the start
3
The illusionary man went to the place where he belonged
Kinzo is already dead before the game even starts
4
The last moment of the boy pierced through the chest by a stake
Illusion to illusion
The one who did the autopsy, Nanjo, is an accomplicee
The witch and stakes of illusion
can only pierce through illusion
Kanon's death was self-written and self-enacted
4
The singing girl with her eyes closed is an illusion
Maria's account is only her following the words of the culprit
The illusion of a locked room
The culprit carried a key
5
She sadly came to understand
that it was all actually limited.
That is why she
sought out to discover endlesness
within this limited destiny
And to find the endless
she abandoned her own destiny to god.
But that did not mean that she abandoned her own destiny altogether.
Because
she held on to this roulette of destiny
with an iron will.
6
If noone was to solve the riddle of the epitaph
then she would not let anyone escape.
An absolute
destiny.
That is how the island was locked off
along with her.
The island was sealed in by this iron will from October 4th to 5th 1986.
And whatever destiny might be chosen in that narrow timeframe, on this island
...she would abandon and devote herself to it.

At least now the EP7 manga is also going into a little bit more fine-tuning, as did the EP8 manga from the very beginning.

Considering how they both portray Yasu's true form as quite different, I suppose Ryukishi advised to keep the form of the EP7 culprit in check with the narrative...as to not directly reveal it in a "THIS IS SHKANNON" kind of way. Even in EP8 they are still making it clear that, while they use the Shannon hairstyle (but Beato dress), "that person", Shannon, Kanon, and Beato are quite distinct entities in their own rights. So far no name was ever given...even Erika speaks of Kanon and "X", "that person", "the true culprit".

And I am trying to push myself (with my very...veeeeeryyyyy limited travel-laptop) through translating a bit more of EP8 for people interested in it. It really brings some more neat points to light if you really concentrate on the text...like this here:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/22.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/22.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/23.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/23.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/24.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/24.png.html)
I don't remember if and how the game framed that particular scene, but I do like how much the manga also uses visual storytelling to impart elements of the story. Like how it becomes clear that, while the content of the diary is the truth, it is also something that Eva clearly is not happy about and likely painted by her emotions of that day.

jjblue1

2014-04-11, 13:53

Thanks for the info, JJ!

It's good to have the solutions for ep 1 confirmed, but at the same time it's a little sad (nostalgic-sad?). Lots of people had already worked out what the solutions must be. Even Ryukishi with his reluctance to tell all is giving us the solutions now. Well, it was inevitable.

Well, considering how many wanted to check their answers I'm not going to complain. Personally I'm happy the manga is giving answers. At this point I think who hadn't come up with a solution might have lost interest or not have the ability of coming up with one and a part of those who found the solutions did it by also using extra tips like Ryukishi's interview.

So I see no harm in finally seeing confirmed what I though... as well as finally giving an answer to who couldn't find one.
LOL, I've some solutions I'm not confident myself so I'll be happy to have an official answer.

It looks as if Yasu's hair is down to mid-back level. So, not as long as Beatrice's, but quite a bit longer than Shannon's and Kanon's. I wonder what the situation really was with Yasu's hair, then? The Beato-hair was shown to be a wig, if things are being consistent. So there's no real point in having mid-back level hair, and Yasu's real hair won't have been blonde anyway. Presumably her normal hair is her Shannon hair and her Kanon hair is either a marvel of quick-change hair styling or another wig. Could be that the blonde mid-back level hair was just a stylistic thing to separate Yasu from Beato/Kanon/Shannon, maybe making her look more like Lion. It does look the most like Lion's hair style.

My guess is that Yasu is represented like that because that's how Yasu sees herself. Skipping the hair colour (which in Umineko is a messy because... blue hair? Really?) it's possible that Yasu originally had long hair and ended up cutting them later on... maybe when she decided that a part of her would be Shannon and another Beatrice.

In her mind though her true self is the one with long yet not as long as Beatrice hair, while her own version with short hair is "Shannon"... although Shannon is also the look she shows to the world so technically her 'real' self has short hair.

The same as always, me translating the few panels that we get...though at least I can get my hands on the magazine that EP7 runs in...so hopefully more to come during this week and more on EP8 when I'm back in Japan at the start of May.

1
Illusion to illusion
Eva and Hideyoshi were bribed by the culprit
The husk that cannot join the earth returns to illusion
The sixth corpse is a lie
2
Illusion to illusion
The servants were agreeing on a story in secret
The chain of illusion can only lock in illusions
The chain had not been set from the start
3
The illusionary man went to the place where he belonged
Kinzo is already dead before the game even starts
4
The last moment of the boy pierced through the chest by a stake
Illusion to illusion
The one who did the autopsy, Nanjo, is an accomplicee
The witch and stakes of illusion
can only pierce through illusion
Kanon's death was self-written and self-enacted
4
The singing girl with her eyes closed is an illusion
Maria's account is only her following the words of the culprit
The illusion of a locked room
The culprit carried a key
5
She sadly came to understand
that it was all actually limited.
That is why she
sought out to discover endlesness
within this limited destiny
And to find the endless
she abandoned her own destiny to god.
But that did not mean that she abandoned her own destiny altogether.
Because
she held on to this roulette of destiny
with an iron will.
6
If noone was to solve the riddle of the epitaph
then she would not let anyone escape.
An absolute
destiny.
That is how the island was locked off
along with her.
The island was sealed in by this iron will from October 4th to 5th 1986.
And whatever destiny might be chosen in that narrow timeframe, on this island
...she would abandon and devote herself to it.

Thank you so much for the translations!

At least now the EP7 manga is also going into a little bit more fine-tuning, as did the EP8 manga from the very beginning.

Yes, finally Ep 7 is giving us something to work with.

And I am trying to push myself (with my very...veeeeeryyyyy limited travel-laptop) through translating a bit more of EP8 for people interested in it. It really brings some more neat points to light if you really concentrate on the text...like this here:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/22.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/22.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/23.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/23.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/24.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/24.png.html)
I don't remember if and how the game framed that particular scene, but I do like how much the manga also uses visual storytelling to impart elements of the story. Like how it becomes clear that, while the content of the diary is the truth, it is also something that Eva clearly is not happy about and likely painted by her emotions of that day.

Thank you so much for this translation also. Yes, Ep 8 is doing a rather wonderful job at this. They're all very expressive. They're rather awesome. Really, I love how Natsumi Kei improved her style. Ep 8 has became really emotionally involving just by watching at the pictures.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-11, 16:14

It's good to have the solutions for ep 1 confirmed, but at the same time it's a little sad (nostalgic-sad?). Lots of people had already worked out what the solutions must be. Even Ryukishi with his reluctance to tell all is giving us the solutions now. Well, it was inevitable.

I also feel like that actually, but I think it is something that really had to happen. It's not fair to expect people to invest so much thought in a work and then not give them a conclusive answer. Sure, EP7 does confirm the correct answers if you've worked out as much, but it doesn't explicitly explain the tricks and let you confirm your theory for certain.

Though Ryukishi's reluctance is sort of justificed because, yeah, the people who didn't think and just waited around for the answer to show up will also be rewarded which will be unfair to those who did think... but I think not letting them check if their thinking did bear fruit in the end is crueler.

I don't remember if and how the game framed that particular scene, but I do like how much the manga also uses visual storytelling to impart elements of the story. Like how it becomes clear that, while the content of the diary is the truth, it is also something that Eva clearly is not happy about and likely painted by her emotions of that day.

Wow, thanks a lot for this!

As far as I recall, the dialogues are exactly the same in the Visual Novel, but the illustrations do highlight the characters' emotional state (troll loli-Ange!!!!!). I really love how Battler's expression is 'oh no!' and Eva brings her hands to her mouth as soon as she realizes what is happening.

because... blue hair? Really?)

You..... should.... not have said that!!!!!!! :frustrated:

Actually, Bernkastel's hair color isn't really that outrageous because she's a meta 100% fictional character. I say, for an "anime", Umineko's hair choices seem to be surprisingly realistic.

Dr. Casey

2014-04-12, 10:43

jjblue1

2014-04-12, 11:23

Question. I remember reading once that the Umineko manga features a flashback of Genji and Kinzo from their youth. I'm not sure just how long ago the scene takes place, but I think it predates the World War II stretch of episode 7. What chapter was it that featured this? I want all the important Kinzo character building I can get (and Genji's kind of interesting too, I guess).

It's in Ep 8 chap 8. It shows how Kinzo and Genji met when they were children and grew up together until Kinzo was taken away to become the new Ushiromiya head. Then it skips to the time after the war had ended in which Kinzo went back to Taiwan to pick Genji up.

You..... should.... not have said that!!!!!!! :frustrated:

Actually, Bernkastel's hair color isn't really that outrageous because she's a meta 100% fictional character. I say, for an "anime", Umineko's hair choices seem to be surprisingly realistic.

Honestly I've no problems with Bern's hair colour. It's when she states Erika too has blue hair that I'm sort of... uhm... really?

On a side note blue is my fave colour so if they had to have hair of an odd colour I prefer them to be blue but still... it's not very natural...

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-12, 14:40

Honestly I've no problems with Bern's hair colour. It's when she states Erika too has blue hair that I'm sort of... uhm... really?

That is because having blue hair is a special privilege that is only alloted to special people who like to tell orphans Santa doesn't exist and get a kick out of making people suffer for no apparent reason, and oh! They can also pull awesome troll faces!

On a side note blue is my fave colour so if they had to have hair of an odd colour I prefer them to be blue but still... it's not very natural...

Well, most anime (and related media) usually have many wierd hair colors a lot wierder than that. Umineko is actually pretty rational. I say, having a human character have this wierd hair color when other characters don't they kinda stick out but maybe Erika was meant to (plus it sort of works as a Bern refferences and really made an impression before EP5 was released).

I personally like Erika having blue hair because..... RYUKISHI HAS MADE THAT COLOR AN EPIC!!!!

jjblue1

2014-04-12, 15:33

That is because having blue hair is a special privilege that is only alloted to special people who like to tell orphans Santa doesn't exist and get a kick out of making people suffer for no apparent reason, and oh! They can also pull awesome troll faces!

LOL You might be up on something here... many characters with blue hair aren't exactly sweet...

Well, most anime (and related media) usually have many wierd hair colors a lot wierder than that. Umineko is actually pretty rational. I say, having a human character have this wierd hair color when other characters don't they kinda stick out but maybe Erika was meant to (plus it sort of works as a Bern refferences and really made an impression before EP5 was released).

I personally like Erika having blue hair because..... RYUKISHI HAS MADE THAT COLOR AN EPIC!!!!

Yes, but the inconsistency in hair colour becomes troublesome when discussing about Yasu. Not only Shannon and Kanon's hair colour seem to be different but Yasu is depicted as having blonde hair... which not only would be genetically difficult but would clash with Shannon and Kanon's hair colour and ends up making us wonder if a blonde long haired Yasu started wearing a short haired wig to impersonate Shannon and then, over that short haired wig she had to wear another blond haired wig in front of Kinzo to impersonate Beatrice... which start to become really ridicolous...

Ence my theory of not paying to much attention to hair colours as they're probably not meant to be taken seriously.

Kealym

2014-04-12, 21:16

Yes, I thought it's been consensus since forever that all the human characters are typical looking, black haired Japanese.

Except for Kuwadoritrice who was probably (I'm assuming, here) noticeably biracial and ended up blonde in a genetic fluke.

I really think Erika's hair was probably black in a real world sense, but since she has a Meta presence they can comment on her actual sprite ; heck, towards the end of EP6 she cracks a joke about her own trollface, so... hey.

jjblue1

2014-04-13, 17:09

I've been using google translate on this page (http://www49.atwiki.jp/aniwotawiki/pages/3679.html?PHPSESSID=bff88639e0ad111323937210af9d6b 15&flag_mobilex=1) as it gives some more info about Ep 8 manga version.
It seems that Shannon also suffered of polydactyly like Kinzo but was operated (remember? one of the pics that leached showed that her feet had a scar). When she clumsily spilled something on herself she removed her shoes and Kinzo caught sign of her scar and figured out what it could mean.

That's why Kinzo was nicer with her (or him? I couldn't get if she was dressed up as Kanon or not) and let her shoot with the guns he never allowed anyone else to touch.

It also says she began to dress up as a male servant because disgusted by her body in the belief by being a male she could be happier and the servants covered up for her... which would mean Kanon was around prior to Kinzo's death.

But well, that's all I can get as Google translate did a rather terrible translation.

Well, even if the whole 'geez, you've a scar on your feet, you must have had polydactyly' is a bit forced it explains Kinzo's behaviour better... and since there was no hint the baby could have had it and Kinzo could have discovered Shannon/Kanon had it as well, it was hard to guess why Kinzo started being nice with her/him all of sudden.

Still, it's sad as Kinzo basically never recognized Shannon/Kanon for his child due to how they were but merely because they had a scar.

Probably when he placed the epitaph he had few time to live and wanted to force Genji to admit they were Lion... which is more logical than thinking he did it without having an idea if Lion was alive and around. This however is worth some thoughts. If Kinzo already had suspicions and Genji didn't know why shouldn't have Genji revealed the truth without that escamoutage? Wasn't he waiting for Kinzo to recognize Shannon/Kanon as his child to tell him the truth?

GoldenLand

2014-04-13, 20:57

It does make a lot of sense as a way of Kinzo identifying Lion. Another person on the island with polydactyly, of about the same age as Lion, brough there by Genji at an abnormally young age...Hell, poor Yasu is 75% Kinzo, right? It is a bit of cheap move, in that there were never hints of this in the VN despite there being an emphasis on what the polydactyly meant for Kinzo himself. But it does make sense. As does the possibility that the epitaph was placed there with the sole purpose of wringing Lion's secret out of Genj.

It doesn't totally rule out the possibility of Yasu just being some kid whom Genji brought to replace the dead Lion. If there had happened to be a kid with polydactyly at the orphanage, it would be possible. But it does make it a little less likely, and that's aside from the way that it being a random kid would thwart Genji's aim of non-molesting parent-child bonds being awakened just from having Yasu there on the island.

I wonder if Genji found out that the reason wasn't that sort of parent-child bond but just the discovery of the scar? I expect he would have been disappointed if he had. His ideas there surrounding the possibility of a wholesome parent child relationship springing into existence sounded romantic in the extreme.

Things could have been handled in a really different way had Kinzo talked to Yasu and ignored the epitaph, and most importantly skipped the whole tearful forgiveness scene with Yasu in her mother's dress. Genji has the worst taste in the entire world. Getting Yasu to dress that way, and having her wander past a whole lot of skeletons later on? Well, maybe the dress was Kinzo's idea. I'm really curious now. Did Genji get Yasu dress up and spring the epitaph thing on Kinzo all at once, or did he tell Kinzo first and follow Kinzo's directions for the meeting? I really have to wonder what was wrong with Kinzo that he didn't go for the sitting down and talking to Genji and Yasu option from the start. (Okay, okay, Ushiromiya Kinzo is not known for his good sense.) Maybe on some level he thought it was too good to be true.

I'm rather pleased to hear that Kanon really was acted out for some time. I like Kanon a lot, and it seemed unfair that a major character like him could just be an imaginary friend who wasn't even a properly acted role. It's not surprising that Yasu's motivation would be to try to see if being male would be a better option, or that the servants would feel compelled to help with that. But if this was before Kinzo's death, wouldn't that be before Yasu found out about the body's original condition? Though she must have already felt uncomfortable for a long time about her lack of normal female development. It must have been quite brave to decide to dress as a male servant with the co-operation of the others even before obtaining the truth and the headship.

If Kinzo already had suspicions and Genji didn't know why shouldn't have Genji revealed the truth without that escamoutage? Wasn't he waiting for Kinzo to recognize Shannon/Kanon as his child to tell him the truth?

That is tricky. Maybe Kinzo wasn't straightforward about his suspicions, and badly feared the possibility of them not being correct? I doubt he resented Genji's actions. Kinzo might have wanted to prove Lion's identity through magic, thus relying on the epitaph as final confirmation. And Genji might have played along with that. Or, possibly Genji just didn't know that Kinzo already had suspicions, or he might have feared that if he told Kinzo too early, Kinzo would harm Yasu.

Ithekro

2014-04-14, 04:47

Could Kinzo have dementia at that age in his life?

haguruma

2014-04-14, 06:40

Just a short post before I read on and post more later...
If this IS information from the manga and not made up or anything, then we have our answer on Ikuko:

May my wish come true, that this bottle mail
may never fall in the hands of anyone.

If, by any chance, you should read this,
then by any means, deal me my just punishment.

One day the author Hachijo Ikuko picked up a curious item by the roadside.
A bottle mail, written on red paper.
The title was:
"Confession of the Golden witch"

It even exceeds the amount of "confession" that was done in EP7 and is full to the brim with the true culprits resentment and grief.
What I want to say is, this is the bound confession letters of the "witch"...

jjblue1

2014-04-14, 11:14

Just a short post before I read on and post more later...
If this IS information from the manga and not made up or anything, then we have our answer on Ikuko:

Thank you for the translation. Honestly if that's the truth I'm disappointed. I wasn't really fond of the idea of Ikuko as Yasu who survived but the idea of Ikuko as random stranger who coincidentially found the bottle with the truth and Battler and coincidentially is wealthy enough to take care of him in private and coincidentially loves mystery and write them and coincidentially she and Battler establish a relationship which is more or less the same Battler had with Sayo... while let's not forget that coincidentally Battler is having amnesia but when Ikuko will read about Rokkenjima he coincidentally will start remembering and helping her writing Rokkenjima forgeries...

Really, the coincidentally is too much. Honestly I would have preferred for Ikuko to be removed or have a quite different backstory.

Besides... how did the bottle reached the roadside? Did Battler have it and lost hit when a car hit him? Well, at least this would make more sense than Ikuko coincidentally finding it...

It does make a lot of sense as a way of Kinzo identifying Lion. Another person on the island with polydactyly, of about the same age as Lion, brough there by Genji at an abnormally young age...Hell, poor Yasu is 75% Kinzo, right? It is a bit of cheap move, in that there were never hints of this in the VN despite there being an emphasis on what the polydactyly meant for Kinzo himself. But it does make sense. As does the possibility that the epitaph was placed there with the sole purpose of wringing Lion's secret out of Genji.

Yes, we were basically asked to assume that Yasu inherited it but no one found out apart for Kinzo who randomly saw Yasu's feet and figured out she had polydactyly just by a scar that must be really, really peculiar because feet can get hurt and scarred all the time and not just due to having a finger removed.

It doesn't totally rule out the possibility of Yasu just being some kid whom Genji brought to replace the dead Lion. If there had happened to be a kid with polydactyly at the orphanage, it would be possible. But it does make it a little less likely, and that's aside from the way that it being a random kid would thwart Genji's aim of non-molesting parent-child bonds being awakened just from having Yasu there on the island.

Honestly I think She was Lion otherwise all Genji had to do was to bribe her to pay the part or ask her to play the part out of pity for a poor old man who was dying and longed to receive forgiveness.

He had no need to pass all the ineritance to a fake, nor to fed her all those lies.

I wonder if Genji found out that the reason wasn't that sort of parent-child bond but just the discovery of the scar? I expect he would have been disappointed if he had. His ideas there surrounding the possibility of a wholesome parent child relationship springing into existence sounded romantic in the extreme.

I think it's possible Genji knows as I think the test implied Kumasawa was around and Kumasawa might have tattled out the incident to him. *sigh* Honestly, I think Genji deserves a prize for coming up with the WORST PLAN EVER.

Things could have been handled in a really different way had Kinzo talked to Yasu and ignored the epitaph, and most importantly skipped the whole tearful forgiveness scene with Yasu in her mother's dress. Genji has the worst taste in the entire world. Getting Yasu to dress that way, and having her wander past a whole lot of skeletons later on? Well, maybe the dress was Kinzo's idea. I'm really curious now. Did Genji get Yasu dress up and spring the epitaph thing on Kinzo all at once, or did he tell Kinzo first and follow Kinzo's directions for the meeting? I really have to wonder what was wrong with Kinzo that he didn't go for the sitting down and talking to Genji and Yasu option from the start. (Okay, okay, Ushiromiya Kinzo is not known for his good sense.) Maybe on some level he thought it was too good to be true.

Honestly I still don't get the dress. Kinzo knows she's a male, they're going to tell her she's a male, what is that mummery for? Feeding up the illusion that Lion is Beatrice reincarnated? Wasn't what Genji was trying to avoid? *sigh* That scene seems more for the sake of Beatrice's resurrection than for the sake of logic.

I'm rather pleased to hear that Kanon really was acted out for some time. I like Kanon a lot, and it seemed unfair that a major character like him could just be an imaginary friend who wasn't even a properly acted role. It's not surprising that Yasu's motivation would be to try to see if being male would be a better option, or that the servants would feel compelled to help with that. But if this was before Kinzo's death, wouldn't that be before Yasu found out about the body's original condition? Though she must have already felt uncomfortable for a long time about her lack of normal female development. It must have been quite brave to decide to dress as a male servant with the co-operation of the others even before obtaining the truth and the headship.

Maybe it started as some sort of rebellion? Her body looked so male like that she tried it as a way to cope? Maybe she hoped people would claim that Kanon was girlish so as to make her feel more fitting as a female? No idea.

That is tricky. Maybe Kinzo wasn't straightforward about his suspicions, and badly feared the possibility of them not being correct? I doubt he resented Genji's actions. Kinzo might have wanted to prove Lion's identity through magic, thus relying on the epitaph as final confirmation. And Genji might have played along with that. Or, possibly Genji just didn't know that Kinzo already had suspicions, or he might have feared that if he told Kinzo too early, Kinzo would harm Yasu.

Bah, at this point I don't really get Kinzo either. What about leaving down a will instead than an epitaph? Didn't he think his children wouldn't like to have a servant snatch away what they thought was rightfully theirs?
And letting his precious guns be touched by said servant without even being sure it was his son when his children never get the honour? Really, Kinzo is the worst.

... not mentioning that playing with guns did no good to Yasu...

haguruma

2014-04-14, 16:50

Really, the coincidentally is too much. Honestly I would have preferred for Ikuko to be removed or have a quite different backstory...
Well, I actually like it in a way, because it plays to the element of chance in the story. None of Sayo's wishes were granted, just the one wish for someone to find her confession and judge her was found.

By the way, the area where Ikuko likely lives (it's either on the very south of the Izu peninsula or Nijima...I don't remember) has roads at the ocean...not close to the ocean but really at the ocean, in the sense of "you are 2m away from the water" close to the ocean...so by-the-roadside likely means that she saw it in the water. Though we'll have to wait till we/I have the chapters in hand to actually verify this.

And here the translation of the article...and now I really want to read the complete chapter 25 and 26...
Servant: Sayo. Real name: Yasuda Sayo
Due to her carelesness she makes many mistakes on her job, she was often scolded for breaken the master's vases by mistake, but because her fellow servant Kumasawa concealed it by saying, "A cat did it," she escaped public blame.
Shannon is also the culprit of the strange incident where "exactly 1 key vanished from the key-chain of a servant."
She simply exchanged her key-batch, which had one key missing, with the one of the servant with all of them attached, the missing key was thrown into the servant locker by her beforehand.
This prank, that was supposed to tighten the resolve of her careless juniors at work, became later feared by all the servants as "the doing of the witch Beatrice who haunts Rokkenjima."
Her not growing chest, the first menstruation that did not come, as well as her face that looked just like a boy on first glance. She developed doubts concerning her own body, which grew stronger day by day.
She called to her mind an if-scenario of, "Might my life have been more happy had I spent it as a boy?"
This gradually developed into an escape mechanism of dressing up as a boy and pretending to be a servant by the name of "Kanon".
For good or bad, this brought her a modest amount of mental stability, and the servants Genji and Kumasawa strongly supported her game all the way.
Shannon became able to put up a laughing front, by pushing the heavy responsibilities of her "love" and her "daily complaints" onto the "witch" and the "little brother" within her heart.
She also gained actual friends, not only those in her fantasy. Her interaction with Ushiromiya Maria broadened Shannon's world and the "magic" that "Beatrice" showed her greatly pleased the innocent Maria.
She had polydactyly by birth and even though she was operated upon a small scar remained.
One day, when Shannon prepared food for Kinzo, she spilled the hot soup over her feet by mistake.
Kumasawa took off Shannon's shoes right there and treated her, not even noticing her great mistake.
But Kinzo's eyes immediately caught "that"...the "scar of the polydactyly operation" on Shannon's feet.
From that point onwards, she was invited by Kinzo to parties of clay pidgeon shooting with the guns that only the Ushiromiya family was allowed to touch, and while she was only a mere servant, she was in obvious favour of Kinzo.
While working as a servant, she fell in love a second time. The one she fell for was Ushiromiya George. Shannon had so many complexes as a woman, but George's plans for the future, wanting a life sorrounded by their children and grandchildren, inspired hope even within her.
Then she solved the epitaph. And in front of Kinzo, humbly begging for forgiveness, the whole truth was laid bare in before her.
I all began with her being a child of adultery, born out of incest...
"You suffered a huge laceration on your lower abdomen, but like a miracle you survived. We were not able to safe your mother...but that is why we wanted you to live all the more.
That is, we wanted you to live happily, even with a body that is unable to produce children"
"Why...?! Why did you safe me?!
Why didn't you just let me die?!
I never wanted to live in a body like this!! Such a body that cannot even make love...!!
That...that is a life that is not even worth living, don't you see?!
I'm not even human...! I'm more like furniture! Yes, I am furniture...!! Furniture I tell you...!
Why...why didn't you let me die at that time?!
UWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH...!!"
When Shannon solved the epitaph, this truth that she didn't want to know and had held no gain was pushed unto her, thus she lost all of the bright future that she had imagined.
And the "4 treasures" that the epitaph had spoken of, were for Shannon nothin more than a complete farce for "a device that is there to hide the gold."
That is why, when she saw the mountain of skeletons, produced in the incident in 1944, piled atop each other in one of the underground rooms, Shannon could only think this as the result of a plan Kinzo devised for monopolizing Beatrice and the gold by killing all of them.
And then he built the mansion in a place to hide the underground passage and the carelessly thrown together remains that went away unmourned.
More than anything, Genji's silence, him not objecting her ideas until the very end, only pushed Shannon's unjust suspicion beyond their limits.
That man's impure blood flowing within her own body was already too much to bear for her.
On the surface she continued her life as a servant without change from that day on. If there was one big change, then it was Shannon working together with Natsuhi to conceal the death of Kinzo.
"That insolent woman. She talks of protecting honor, but the only thing she wants to protect is her appearance!"
"Huh. This is just punishment for Kinzo who had raped me!"
In order to settle Krauss' debts, there was a necessity to shelf the question of the succession of the family head, that is when she approached them with a plan of false testimonies as if she had planned it from the beginning.
When looking at the situation from afar, it almost seemed as if a witch or something had granted them magical powers...
"Hey...About Kanon-kun...does he have a girlfriend....?"
The "little brother" that she used as an outlet for all her ill feeling was a great help to Shannon.
At the same time he served as a reminder of the truth that she really was an offspring of the adulterer Kinzo.
George and Jessica. Their love for her only grew stronger. And that blood within her rejoiced. Those Ushiromiya genes deep, deep within her.
While she was at the peak of bliss, that was the very reason that Shannon was unable to speak out about her true situation.
Even the trip with George that gave her a chance she let pass by idly when they stayed in separate rooms.
And then there was the day of the family conference in 1986. Ushiromiya George would come forward with an engagement ring for "Yasuda Sayo" on that day.
It was too hard for her to believe in a future fill of hope when nobody had ever accepted her for her true self.
"You love your whitewashing, furnituuure! Love is lust of the flesh measured in bodies atop each otheeeer! George will definitely despair!! As soon as he knows about your birth and your bodyyyyyy!"
"I wanted to be loved by somebody! I wanted to love somebody!
Is the thought of persuing this love with George-sama alone a sin?!"
"Nee-san, you think that even if you get rejected by George-sama, you will still have Jessica-sama, right?!
But Milady Jessica is no replacement for George-sama! Because I...I want to love...!!"
Try and change that situation with your gold, Kanon sneered at her while the witch was laughing at her from the shadows.
Even if she decided to spent her days without thinking too much about it, there was still the great ethical and moral dillema floating about, that everybody would be able to see, that was the genetic connection that made her "Beatrice".
Whatever she chose, she was sure to suffer. But she also suffered by not choosing. All because of the accursed lineage that was burdened upon her.
It was as if destiny was playing with her. But the girl did not know that this was what it meant to live.
George would have surely accepted her even if she came forward with all of this. She would surely be able to live as just "Yasuda Sayo", were she to discard "Beato" and "Kanon".
But that expectation was haunted by Shannon fearing in her heart the "nightmare that George might completely refuse the human that is me."
She knew for herself that George was not a man like that. She knew it, yet the fear would not go away.
And at the brim of her thoughts always lurked that most horrible future, to be refused by that "special someone" right in the moment she decided to pick them.
Then came 1986. It was as every year when the conference was approaching, when a worried Natsuhi spat out in front of the servants:
"For the first time in 6 years, Battler-kun is coming to the family conference"
....why did it have to happen now? Why did he come back now....? This timing, 1986, was more ruthless than any other time.
The duel of love that she had already planned through, now had to be revised to make room for the witch that had been added to this three-way deadlock.
The witch who had sowed none other than the seed called "first love" threw words of ridicule at Shannon who was shedding bloody tears within her heart.
"Aren't you the one who expected Battler's return more than anybody and rejoices more than anybody?!"
"Will you use him as an insurance in case George rejects you? Or will you hop over to Battler right nooow?!"
"Yeees, that's right! No matter who you choose, with that filthy body of yours you will never be bound to anybody!"
Anything and everything seemed against her. She cursed the whole world and her destiny.
As a result of her procrastinating time and time again, there was no strength left in her to face up to the harsh reality,
"I don't want to live in a body like this. If I were just able to undo it all, somehow, then..."
And then, as if it was timed by a demon, lightning illuminated that one passage of the epitaph and her gaze fell upon it.
"And none shall be left alive. And you shall arrive at the Land of Gold."
There existed a spell to invite them all into equality down the path of no return towards the underworld, where they would be released from their cages of flesh....everything could go to the Golden Land.
The gold, weapons, explosives. Preliminary arrangements and the pragmatic means were already in place without her doing. The execution had become possible by chance.
In the summer of 1986, while torrential rains was pouring around her, she secretly carried out a test of the explosives.
They had more power than she had even expected and blew the local shrine to bits.

The execution of her plan would come on the day of the family conference.
There were three eyes on the roulette she had prepared, corresponding to "the witch", "Yasuda Sayo" and "Kanon".
The make-believe murder. The epitaph being solved. And finally, the Golden Land.
This destructive risk, powered by a certain will, would surely bring about a true miracle of magic for her.
At least her expectations seemed to be higher than...
"The likelihood of her plan being stopped before execution, when throwing out a message bottle that sounds so much like a confession," right?!

October 6th 1986, 00:00 midnight.The Rokkenjima Explosion Incident occurs.
There is just one survivor, Ushiromiya Eva. That woman left this world without ever speaking of the incident.
That is why there is noone who knows of the existence of a servant girl who was toying with destiny in the shadows of the events.

...the details of a girl unable to make a decision,
her body wiped away without a trace, and only the ones who were supposed to be on the island that day know of her...

Though I do wonder how much more about Tohya the manga will reveal...

jjblue1

2014-04-14, 17:33

Well, I actually like it in a way, because it plays to the element of chance in the story. None of Sayo's wishes were granted, just the one wish for someone to find her confession and judge her was found.

Honestly there are a tad too much coincidences for me to swallow in Umineko. I already try not too think to hard at how an Italian submarine carrying a woman and 10 tons of gold ended up in Japan and then BANG, everyone died minus Kinzo and Beatrice and Kinzo managed to pull off not being suspected and not having people discover what had happened and hey, he could even buy Rokkenjima and Krauss and Co never discovered Kuwadorian and they even made for Kinzo a red button of doom in form of a clock and that's not even the tip of the iceberg but since it's the part of the iceberg that's under water I try not to see it.

Ikuko feels like a forced plot device. The VN makes her too weird to think she's just a bystander who coincidentially did this and that and that and that and that... and so on... merely because she felt like it.

Maybe the manga gives her a different feeling so I shouldn't judge without seeing the Tohya/Ikuko chapter (as the manga managed to make things work much better so maybe the general feeling I'll get by reading the chapter will be different from the one in the VN...) but as of now I'm not really pleased.

By the way, the area where Ikuko likely lives (it's either on the very south of the Izu peninsula or Nijima...I don't remember) has roads at the ocean...not close to the ocean but really at the ocean, in the sense of "you are 2m away from the water" close to the ocean...so by-the-roadside likely means that she saw it in the water. Though we'll have to wait till we/I have the chapters in hand to actually verify this.

Oh, okay...

And here the translation of the article...and now I really want to read the complete chapter 25 and 26...
Servant: Sayo. Real name: Yasuda Sayo
Due to her carelesness she makes many mistakes on her job, she was often scolded for breaken the master's vases by mistake, but because her fellow servant Kumasawa concealed it by saying, "A cat did it," she escaped public blame.
Shannon is also the culprit of the strange incident where "exactly 1 key vanished from the key-chain of a servant."
She simply exchanged her key-batch, which had one key missing, with the one of the servant with all of them attached, the missing key was thrown into the servant locker by her beforehand.
This prank, that was supposed to tighten the resolve of her careless juniors at work, became later feared by all the servants as "the doing of the witch Beatrice who haunts Rokkenjima."
Her not growing chest, the first menstruation that did not come, as well as her face that looked just like a boy on first glance. She developed doubts concerning her own body, which grew stronger day by day.
She called to her mind an if-scenario of, "Might my life have been more happy had I spent it as a boy?"
This gradually developed into an escape mechanism of dressing up as a boy and pretending to be a servant by the name of "Kanon".
For good or bad, this brought her a modest amount of mental stability, and the servants Genji and Kumasawa strongly supported her game all the way.
Shannon became able to put up a laughing front, by pushing the heavy responsibilities of her "love" and her "daily complaints" onto the "witch" and the "little brother" within her heart.
She also gained actual friends, not only those in her fantasy. Her interaction with Ushiromiya Maria broadened Shannon's world and the "magic" that "Beatrice" showed her greatly pleased the innocent Maria.
She had polydactyly by birth and even though she was operated upon a small scar remained.
One day, when Shannon prepared food for Kinzo, she spilled the hot soup over her feet by mistake.
Kumasawa took off Shannon's shoes right there and treated her, not even noticing her great mistake.
But Kinzo's eyes immediately caught "that"...the "scar of the polydactyly operation" on Shannon's feet.
From that point onwards, she was invited by Kinzo to parties of clay pidgeon shooting with the guns that only the Ushiromiya family was allowed to touch, and while she was only a mere servant, she was in obvious favour of Kinzo.
While working as a servant, she fell in love a second time. The one she fell for was Ushiromiya George. Shannon had so many complexes as a woman, but George's plans for the future, wanting a life sorrounded by their children and grandchildren, inspired hope even within her.
Then she solved the epitaph. And in front of Kinzo, humbly begging for forgiveness, the whole truth was laid bare in before her.
I all began with her being a child of adultery, born out of incest...
"You suffered a huge laceration on your lower abdomen, but like a miracle you survived. We were not able to safe your mother...but that is why we wanted you to live all the more.
That is, we wanted you to live happily, even with a body that is unable to produce children"
"Why...?! Why did you safe me?!
Why didn't you just let me die?!
I never wanted to live in a body like this!! Such a body that cannot even make love...!!
That...that is a life that is not even worth living, don't you see?!
I'm not even human...! I'm more like furniture! Yes, I am furniture...!! Furniture I tell you...!
Why...why didn't you let me die at that time?!
UWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH...!!"
When Shannon solved the epitaph, this truth that she didn't want to know and had held no gain was pushed unto her, thus she lost all of the bright future that she had imagined.
And the "4 treasures" that the epitaph had spoken of, were for Shannon nothin more than a complete farce for "a device that is there to hide the gold."
That is why, when she saw the mountain of skeletons, produced in the incident in 1944, piled atop each other in one of the underground rooms, Shannon could only think this as the result of a plan Kinzo devised for monopolizing Beatrice and the gold by killing all of them.
And then he built the mansion in a place to hide the underground passage and the carelessly thrown together remains that went away unmourned.
More than anything, Genji's silence, him not objecting her ideas until the very end, only pushed Shannon's unjust suspicion beyond their limits.
That man's impure blood flowing within her own body was already too much to bear for her.
On the surface she continued her life as a servant without change from that day on. If there was one big change, then it was Shannon working together with Natsuhi to conceal the death of Kinzo.
"That insolent woman. She talks of protecting honor, but the only thing she wants to protect is her appearance!"
"Huh. This is just punishment for Kinzo who had raped me!"
In order to settle Krauss' debts, there was a necessity to shelf the question of the succession of the family head, that is when she approached them with a plan of false testimonies as if she had planned it from the beginning.
When looking at the situation from afar, it almost seemed as if a witch or something had granted them magical powers...
"Hey...About Kanon-kun...does he have a girlfriend....?"
The "little brother" that she used as an outlet for all her ill feeling was a great help to Shannon.
At the same time he served as a reminder of the truth that she really was an offspring of the adulterer Kinzo.
George and Jessica. Their love for her only grew stronger. And that blood within her rejoiced. Those Ushiromiya genes deep, deep within her.
While she was at the peak of bliss, that was the very reason that Shannon was unable to speak out about her true situation.
Even the trip with George that gave her a chance she let pass by idly when they stayed in separate rooms.
And then there was the day of the family conference in 1986. Ushiromiya George would come forward with an engagement ring for "Yasuda Sayo" on that day.
It was too hard for her to believe in a future fill of hope when nobody had ever accepted her for her true self.
"You love your whitewashing, furnituuure! Love is lust of the flesh measured in bodies atop each otheeeer! George will definitely despair!! As soon as he knows about your birth and your bodyyyyyy!"
"I wanted to be loved by somebody! I wanted to love somebody!
Is the thought of persuing this love with George-sama alone a sin?!"
"Nee-san, you think that even if you get rejected by George-sama, you will still have Jessica-sama, right?!
But Milady Jessica is no replacement for George-sama! Because I...I want to love...!!"
Try and change that situation with your gold, Kanon sneered at her while the witch was laughing at her from the shadows.
Even if she decided to spent her days without thinking too much about it, there was still the great ethical and moral dillema floating about, that everybody would be able to see, that was the genetic connection that made her "Beatrice".
Whatever she chose, she was sure to suffer. But she also suffered by not choosing. All because of the accursed lineage that was burdened upon her.
It was as if destiny was playing with her. But the girl did not know that this was what it meant to live.
George would have surely accepted her even if she came forward with all of this. She would surely be able to live as just "Yasuda Sayo", were she to discard "Beato" and "Kanon".
But that expectation was haunted by Shannon fearing in her heart the "nightmare that George might completely refuse the human that is me."
She knew for herself that George was not a man like that. She knew it, yet the fear would not go away.
And at the brim of her thoughts always lurked that most horrible future, to be refused by that "special someone" right in the moment she decided to pick them.
Then came 1986. It was as every year when the conference was approaching, when a worried Natsuhi spat out in front of the servants:
"For the first time in 6 years, Battler-kun is coming to the family conference"
....why did it have to happen now? Why did he come back now....? This timing, 1986, was more ruthless than any other time.
The duel of love that she had already planned through, now had to be revised to make room for the witch that had been added to this three-way deadlock.
The witch who had sowed none other than the seed called "first love" threw words of ridicule at Shannon who was shedding bloody tears within her heart.
"Aren't you the one who expected Battler's return more than anybody and rejoices more than anybody?!"
"Will you use him as an insurance in case George rejects you? Or will you hop over to Battler right nooow?!"
"Yeees, that's right! No matter who you choose, with that filthy body of yours you will never be bound to anybody!"
Anything and everything seemed against her. She cursed the whole world and her destiny.
As a result of her procrastinating time and time again, there was no strength left in her to face up to the harsh reality,
"I don't want to live in a body like this. If I were just able to undo it all, somehow, then..."
And then, as if it was timed by a demon, lightning illuminated that one passage of the epitaph and her gaze fell upon it.
"And none shall be left alive. And you shall arrive at the Land of Gold."
There existed a spell to invite them all into equality down the path of no return towards the underworld, where they would be released from their cages of flesh....everything could go to the Golden Land.
The gold, weapons, explosives. Preliminary arrangements and the pragmatic means were already in place without her doing. The execution had become possible by chance.
In the summer of 1986, while torrential rains was pouring around her, she secretly carried out a test of the explosives.
They had more power than she had even expected and blew the local shrine to bits.

The execution of her plan would come on the day of the family conference.
There were three eyes on the roulette she had prepared, corresponding to "the witch", "Yasuda Sayo" and "Kanon".
The make-believe murder. The epitaph being solved. And finally, the Golden Land.
This destructive risk, powered by a certain will, would surely bring about a true miracle of magic for her.
At least her expectations seemed to be higher than...
"The likelihood of her plan being stopped before execution, when throwing out a message bottle that sounds so much like a confession," right?!

October 6th 1986, 00:00 midnight.The Rokkenjima Explosion Incident occurs.
There is just one survivor, Ushiromiya Eva. That woman left this world without ever speaking of the incident.
That is why there is noone who knows of the existence of a servant girl who was toying with destiny in the shadows of the events.

...the details of a girl unable to make a decision,
her body wiped away without a trace, and only the ones who were supposed to be on the island that day know of her...

Thank you so much for the translation! It's scary how Sayo was basically let spiral into madness. They abandoned her to herself to deal with all that...

... it seems Ep 7 really sugar coated things as the truth was a lot more ugly than one could even think.

Though I find laughable how they told her they wanted her to live happily and then didn't give her a single way to live happily. They didn't give her a family, they didn't help her with her complexes and gender issues, they kept her in a toxic environment, they told her truth she didn't need to know and didn't help her to deal with them and then, when she said she would prefer to be dead... they basically let her keep on feeling miserable?

Geez, you really wanted her to be happy, didn't you?

Honestly, I get why she wanted to get rid of you...

Though I do wonder how much more about Tohya the manga will reveal...

*sigh* I'm starting to think the manga will tell us that everything took place without Battler noticing, Eva offed Kyrie and Rudolf and then found Battler still alive and unaware of what had happened. She tried to save him by claiming 'someone killed everyone' and dragged him into the tunnel, he suspected her and she shoot him. She didn't manage to kill him though but left him for death. He managed to get up and escaped into the other tunnel and that's how he survived.

In short it'll go for the boring solution.

GoldenLand

2014-04-14, 19:32

Servant: Sayo. Real name: Yasuda Sayo
Due to her carelesness she makes many mistakes on her job, she was often scolded for breaken the master's vases by mistake, but because her fellow servant Kumasawa concealed it by saying, "A cat did it," she escaped public blame.
Shannon is also the culprit of the strange incident where "exactly 1 key vanished from the key-chain of a servant."
She simply exchanged her key-batch, which had one key missing, with the one of the servant with all of them attached, the missing key was thrown into the servant locker by her beforehand.
This prank, that was supposed to tighten the resolve of her careless juniors at work, became later feared by all the servants as "the doing of the witch Beatrice who haunts Rokkenjima."
Her not growing chest, the first menstruation that did not come, as well as her face that looked just like a boy on first glance. She developed doubts concerning her own body, which grew stronger day by day.
She called to her mind an if-scenario of, "Might my life have been more happy had I spent it as a boy?"
This gradually developed into an escape mechanism of dressing up as a boy and pretending to be a servant by the name of "Kanon".
For good or bad, this brought her a modest amount of mental stability, and the servants Genji and Kumasawa strongly supported her game all the way.
Shannon became able to put up a laughing front, by pushing the heavy responsibilities of her "love" and her "daily complaints" onto the "witch" and the "little brother" within her heart.
She also gained actual friends, not only those in her fantasy. Her interaction with Ushiromiya Maria broadened Shannon's world and the "magic" that "Beatrice" showed her greatly pleased the innocent Maria.
She had polydactyly by birth and even though she was operated upon a small scar remained.
One day, when Shannon prepared food for Kinzo, she spilled the hot soup over her feet by mistake.
Kumasawa took off Shannon's shoes right there and treated her, not even noticing her great mistake.
But Kinzo's eyes immediately caught "that"...the "scar of the polydactyly operation" on Shannon's feet.
From that point onwards, she was invited by Kinzo to parties of clay pidgeon shooting with the guns that only the Ushiromiya family was allowed to touch, and while she was only a mere servant, she was in obvious favour of Kinzo.
While working as a servant, she fell in love a second time. The one she fell for was Ushiromiya George. Shannon had so many complexes as a woman, but George's plans for the future, wanting a life sorrounded by their children and grandchildren, inspired hope even within her.
Then she solved the epitaph. And in front of Kinzo, humbly begging for forgiveness, the whole truth was laid bare in before her.
I all began with her being a child of adultery, born out of incest...
"You suffered a huge laceration on your lower abdomen, but like a miracle you survived. We were not able to safe your mother...but that is why we wanted you to live all the more.
That is, we wanted you to live happily, even with a body that is unable to produce children"
"Why...?! Why did you safe me?!
Why didn't you just let me die?!
I never wanted to live in a body like this!! Such a body that cannot even make love...!!
That...that is a life that is not even worth living, don't you see?!
I'm not even human...! I'm more like furniture! Yes, I am furniture...!! Furniture I tell you...!
Why...why didn't you let me die at that time?!
UWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH...!!"
When Shannon solved the epitaph, this truth that she didn't want to know and had held no gain was pushed unto her, thus she lost all of the bright future that she had imagined.
And the "4 treasures" that the epitaph had spoken of, were for Shannon nothin more than a complete farce for "a device that is there to hide the gold."
That is why, when she saw the mountain of skeletons, produced in the incident in 1944, piled atop each other in one of the underground rooms, Shannon could only think this as the result of a plan Kinzo devised for monopolizing Beatrice and the gold by killing all of them.
And then he built the mansion in a place to hide the underground passage and the carelessly thrown together remains that went away unmourned.
More than anything, Genji's silence, him not objecting her ideas until the very end, only pushed Shannon's unjust suspicion beyond their limits.
That man's impure blood flowing within her own body was already too much to bear for her.
On the surface she continued her life as a servant without change from that day on. If there was one big change, then it was Shannon working together with Natsuhi to conceal the death of Kinzo.
"That insolent woman. She talks of protecting honor, but the only thing she wants to protect is her appearance!"
"Huh. This is just punishment for Kinzo who had raped me!"
In order to settle Krauss' debts, there was a necessity to shelf the question of the succession of the family head, that is when she approached them with a plan of false testimonies as if she had planned it from the beginning.
When looking at the situation from afar, it almost seemed as if a witch or something had granted them magical powers...
"Hey...About Kanon-kun...does he have a girlfriend....?"
The "little brother" that she used as an outlet for all her ill feeling was a great help to Shannon.
At the same time he served as a reminder of the truth that she really was an offspring of the adulterer Kinzo.
George and Jessica. Their love for her only grew stronger. And that blood within her rejoiced. Those Ushiromiya genes deep, deep within her.
While she was at the peak of bliss, that was the very reason that Shannon was unable to speak out about her true situation.
Even the trip with George that gave her a chance she let pass by idly when they stayed in separate rooms.
And then there was the day of the family conference in 1986. Ushiromiya George would come forward with an engagement ring for "Yasuda Sayo" on that day.
It was too hard for her to believe in a future fill of hope when nobody had ever accepted her for her true self.
"You love your whitewashing, furnituuure! Love is lust of the flesh measured in bodies atop each otheeeer! George will definitely despair!! As soon as he knows about your birth and your bodyyyyyy!"
"I wanted to be loved by somebody! I wanted to love somebody!
Is the thought of persuing this love with George-sama alone a sin?!"
"Nee-san, you think that even if you get rejected by George-sama, you will still have Jessica-sama, right?!
But Milady Jessica is no replacement for George-sama! Because I...I want to love...!!"
Try and change that situation with your gold, Kanon sneered at her while the witch was laughing at her from the shadows.
Even if she decided to spent her days without thinking too much about it, there was still the great ethical and moral dillema floating about, that everybody would be able to see, that was the genetic connection that made her "Beatrice".
Whatever she chose, she was sure to suffer. But she also suffered by not choosing. All because of the accursed lineage that was burdened upon her.
It was as if destiny was playing with her. But the girl did not know that this was what it meant to live.
George would have surely accepted her even if she came forward with all of this. She would surely be able to live as just "Yasuda Sayo", were she to discard "Beato" and "Kanon".
But that expectation was haunted by Shannon fearing in her heart the "nightmare that George might completely refuse the human that is me."
She knew for herself that George was not a man like that. She knew it, yet the fear would not go away.
And at the brim of her thoughts always lurked that most horrible future, to be refused by that "special someone" right in the moment she decided to pick them.
Then came 1986. It was as every year when the conference was approaching, when a worried Natsuhi spat out in front of the servants:
"For the first time in 6 years, Battler-kun is coming to the family conference"
....why did it have to happen now? Why did he come back now....? This timing, 1986, was more ruthless than any other time.
The duel of love that she had already planned through, now had to be revised to make room for the witch that had been added to this three-way deadlock.
The witch who had sowed none other than the seed called "first love" threw words of ridicule at Shannon who was shedding bloody tears within her heart.
"Aren't you the one who expected Battler's return more than anybody and rejoices more than anybody?!"
"Will you use him as an insurance in case George rejects you? Or will you hop over to Battler right nooow?!"
"Yeees, that's right! No matter who you choose, with that filthy body of yours you will never be bound to anybody!"
Anything and everything seemed against her. She cursed the whole world and her destiny.
As a result of her procrastinating time and time again, there was no strength left in her to face up to the harsh reality,
"I don't want to live in a body like this. If I were just able to undo it all, somehow, then..."
And then, as if it was timed by a demon, lightning illuminated that one passage of the epitaph and her gaze fell upon it.
"And none shall be left alive. And you shall arrive at the Land of Gold."
There existed a spell to invite them all into equality down the path of no return towards the underworld, where they would be released from their cages of flesh....everything could go to the Golden Land.
The gold, weapons, explosives. Preliminary arrangements and the pragmatic means were already in place without her doing. The execution had become possible by chance.
In the summer of 1986, while torrential rains was pouring around her, she secretly carried out a test of the explosives.
They had more power than she had even expected and blew the local shrine to bits.

The execution of her plan would come on the day of the family conference.
There were three eyes on the roulette she had prepared, corresponding to "the witch", "Yasuda Sayo" and "Kanon".
The make-believe murder. The epitaph being solved. And finally, the Golden Land.
This destructive risk, powered by a certain will, would surely bring about a true miracle of magic for her.
At least her expectations seemed to be higher than...
"The likelihood of her plan being stopped before execution, when throwing out a message bottle that sounds so much like a confession," right?!

October 6th 1986, 00:00 midnight.The Rokkenjima Explosion Incident occurs.
There is just one survivor, Ushiromiya Eva. That woman left this world without ever speaking of the incident.
That is why there is noone who knows of the existence of a servant girl who was toying with destiny in the shadows of the events.

...the details of a girl unable to make a decision,
her body wiped away without a trace, and only the ones who were supposed to be on the island that day know of her...

That's spoilered as "the true culprit", but...Does that really 100% mean that Yasu was the main culprit who intended to kill everyone and went ahead with her plan successfully?

That does seem to confirm a fake murder game at first, with the intent to make people solve the epitaph. And it looks very much as if Yasu intended to die on Rokkenjima that day, and to at minimum feel ready to set off the bomb at least in theory. But on the face of it it doesn't rule out Yasu not having the nerve or intention to murder anyone else. Or the possibility of the epitaph being solved before Yasu could do anything either way, her giving up, and the adults being the ones to start the killings.

Renall

2014-04-14, 19:33

At what point in the thought process did "We'll reassign the child's gender and raise them as a female even though regardless of presented gender sexual activity will be impossible" come to sound like a good idea to Genji? I mean there's a big difference between "I'm male but due to a childhood injury things don't work right" and "I thought I was female, but then puberty hit and I didn't develop like a female in any way and at some point I was finally told that I was actually born sexually male." Why was any of that even necessary? Did Genji think more than 20 minutes ahead and wonder what was going to happen in 12 years or so? It was actually more difficult to do the thing that hurt Yasu more.

Genji is basically gradually being characterized by the manga as a guy who didn't just drop the ball, he spiked it in the endzone directly into Yasu's face and then back-shuffled out of the stadium shooting the middle finger to literally everyone. Like some kind of characterization scapegoat. Why did (nonsensical or traumatic thing) happen? Because Genji is a stupid asshole, next question.

Dr. Casey

2014-04-14, 21:48

Could Kinzo have dementia at that age in his life?

What age do you mean? If you're talking about Yasu's birth in 1967, doubtful - Kinzo would only have been in his early 60s at that point, and dementia at that age is quite rare. I'm inclined to think that Kinzo never developed dementia, though, because that would muddy the waters too much - the mistakes of his later years could be blamed on the dementia rather than Kinzo himself, and that's just not very satisfying from a storytelling perspective.

@jj: That sounds amazing, but I'm not sure that's the right chapter. I read through episode 8 chapter 8 (the third and last chapter of the Halloween party), but the Kinzo/Genji flashback wasn't featured there. I'm curious to see if Kinzo had some screws loose even as a youth, or if he was perfectly stable and balanced during his early, pre-Headship years.

Also, lol'd at Renall's description of Asshole Genji. :heh:

haguruma

2014-04-15, 02:22

That's spoilered as "the true culprit", but...Does that really 100% mean that Yasu was the main culprit who intended to kill everyone and went ahead with her plan successfully?

That does seem to confirm a fake murder game at first, with the intent to make people solve the epitaph. And it looks very much as if Yasu intended to die on Rokkenjima that day, and to at minimum feel ready to set off the bomb at least in theory. But on the face of it it doesn't rule out Yasu not having the nerve or intention to murder anyone else. Or the possibility of the epitaph being solved before Yasu could do anything either way, her giving up, and the adults being the ones to start the killings.
Nah, it doesn't really mean that everything between October 4th when Yasu threw out the bottles and the 6th when the explosion happened actually occurred in one of the three ways she had imagined. She imagined this roulette with 3 different outcomes but failed to see that the people around her are not as passive as herself.

So very likely the content of Eva's diary is pretty much completely true as well, though probably tainted by a lot of bile and anger from Eva after the incident...as well as written from her personal perspective.

I do wonder though if the manga is also going to give us a little bit more about the catbox and how Battler escaped...

On a different note:
What I do like is the more obvious parallels between Yasu and Ange that are woven into the manga, which the VN sadly underplayed a lot. In the siege on the chapel, when Ange and Beatrice have their battle...it's kind of underwhelming and after reading it in the manga I can't help but think that the seiyuu did a mediocre job in the PS3 version as well.
In the manga there are two instances that stand out for me. One is Beatrice saying that "Those who loose sight of their own future because they chain themselves to the past are the saddest of all", and of course it completely goes by Ange that Beato also means herself in a way.
The other is when Ange says that a life like her's is not worth living, one where she would be all alone, nobody there to understand her, and that she simply wanted to know the reason for her loneliness and then just go and join all her family in death...which makes Beato remember how "she" went through similar motions.

Ithekro

2014-04-15, 02:46

What age do you mean? If you're talking about Yasu's birth in 1967, doubtful - Kinzo would only have been in his early 60s at that point, and dementia at that age is quite rare. I'm inclined to think that Kinzo never developed dementia, though, because that would muddy the waters too much - the mistakes of his later years could be blamed on the dementia rather than Kinzo himself, and that's just not very satisfying from a storytelling perspective.

@jj: That sounds amazing, but I'm not sure that's the right chapter. I read through episode 8 chapter 8 (the third and last chapter of the Halloween party), but the Kinzo/Genji flashback wasn't featured there. I'm curious to see if Kinzo had some screws loose even as a youth, or if he was perfectly stable and balanced during his early, pre-Headship years.

Also, lol'd at Renall's description of Asshole Genji. :heh:

I was thinking in the 80s when Yasu shows up again.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-15, 06:35

And here the translation of the article...and now I really want to read the complete chapter 25 and 26...
Servant: Sayo. Real name: Yasuda Sayo
Due to her carelesness she makes many mistakes on her job, she was often scolded for breaken the master's vases by mistake, but because her fellow servant Kumasawa concealed it by saying, "A cat did it," she escaped public blame.
Shannon is also the culprit of the strange incident where "exactly 1 key vanished from the key-chain of a servant."
She simply exchanged her key-batch, which had one key missing, with the one of the servant with all of them attached, the missing key was thrown into the servant locker by her beforehand.
This prank, that was supposed to tighten the resolve of her careless juniors at work, became later feared by all the servants as "the doing of the witch Beatrice who haunts Rokkenjima."
Her not growing chest, the first menstruation that did not come, as well as her face that looked just like a boy on first glance. She developed doubts concerning her own body, which grew stronger day by day.
She called to her mind an if-scenario of, "Might my life have been more happy had I spent it as a boy?"
This gradually developed into an escape mechanism of dressing up as a boy and pretending to be a servant by the name of "Kanon".
For good or bad, this brought her a modest amount of mental stability, and the servants Genji and Kumasawa strongly supported her game all the way.
Shannon became able to put up a laughing front, by pushing the heavy responsibilities of her "love" and her "daily complaints" onto the "witch" and the "little brother" within her heart.
She also gained actual friends, not only those in her fantasy. Her interaction with Ushiromiya Maria broadened Shannon's world and the "magic" that "Beatrice" showed her greatly pleased the innocent Maria.
She had polydactyly by birth and even though she was operated upon a small scar remained.
One day, when Shannon prepared food for Kinzo, she spilled the hot soup over her feet by mistake.
Kumasawa took off Shannon's shoes right there and treated her, not even noticing her great mistake.
But Kinzo's eyes immediately caught "that"...the "scar of the polydactyly operation" on Shannon's feet.
From that point onwards, she was invited by Kinzo to parties of clay pidgeon shooting with the guns that only the Ushiromiya family was allowed to touch, and while she was only a mere servant, she was in obvious favour of Kinzo.
While working as a servant, she fell in love a second time. The one she fell for was Ushiromiya George. Shannon had so many complexes as a woman, but George's plans for the future, wanting a life sorrounded by their children and grandchildren, inspired hope even within her.
Then she solved the epitaph. And in front of Kinzo, humbly begging for forgiveness, the whole truth was laid bare in before her.
I all began with her being a child of adultery, born out of incest...
"You suffered a huge laceration on your lower abdomen, but like a miracle you survived. We were not able to safe your mother...but that is why we wanted you to live all the more.
That is, we wanted you to live happily, even with a body that is unable to produce children"
"Why...?! Why did you safe me?!
Why didn't you just let me die?!
I never wanted to live in a body like this!! Such a body that cannot even make love...!!
That...that is a life that is not even worth living, don't you see?!
I'm not even human...! I'm more like furniture! Yes, I am furniture...!! Furniture I tell you...!
Why...why didn't you let me die at that time?!
UWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH...!!"
When Shannon solved the epitaph, this truth that she didn't want to know and had held no gain was pushed unto her, thus she lost all of the bright future that she had imagined.
And the "4 treasures" that the epitaph had spoken of, were for Shannon nothin more than a complete farce for "a device that is there to hide the gold."
That is why, when she saw the mountain of skeletons, produced in the incident in 1944, piled atop each other in one of the underground rooms, Shannon could only think this as the result of a plan Kinzo devised for monopolizing Beatrice and the gold by killing all of them.
And then he built the mansion in a place to hide the underground passage and the carelessly thrown together remains that went away unmourned.
More than anything, Genji's silence, him not objecting her ideas until the very end, only pushed Shannon's unjust suspicion beyond their limits.
That man's impure blood flowing within her own body was already too much to bear for her.
On the surface she continued her life as a servant without change from that day on. If there was one big change, then it was Shannon working together with Natsuhi to conceal the death of Kinzo.
"That insolent woman. She talks of protecting honor, but the only thing she wants to protect is her appearance!"
"Huh. This is just punishment for Kinzo who had raped me!"
In order to settle Krauss' debts, there was a necessity to shelf the question of the succession of the family head, that is when she approached them with a plan of false testimonies as if she had planned it from the beginning.
When looking at the situation from afar, it almost seemed as if a witch or something had granted them magical powers...
"Hey...About Kanon-kun...does he have a girlfriend....?"
The "little brother" that she used as an outlet for all her ill feeling was a great help to Shannon.
At the same time he served as a reminder of the truth that she really was an offspring of the adulterer Kinzo.
George and Jessica. Their love for her only grew stronger. And that blood within her rejoiced. Those Ushiromiya genes deep, deep within her.
While she was at the peak of bliss, that was the very reason that Shannon was unable to speak out about her true situation.
Even the trip with George that gave her a chance she let pass by idly when they stayed in separate rooms.
And then there was the day of the family conference in 1986. Ushiromiya George would come forward with an engagement ring for "Yasuda Sayo" on that day.
It was too hard for her to believe in a future fill of hope when nobody had ever accepted her for her true self.
"You love your whitewashing, furnituuure! Love is lust of the flesh measured in bodies atop each otheeeer! George will definitely despair!! As soon as he knows about your birth and your bodyyyyyy!"
"I wanted to be loved by somebody! I wanted to love somebody!
Is the thought of persuing this love with George-sama alone a sin?!"
"Nee-san, you think that even if you get rejected by George-sama, you will still have Jessica-sama, right?!
But Milady Jessica is no replacement for George-sama! Because I...I want to love...!!"
Try and change that situation with your gold, Kanon sneered at her while the witch was laughing at her from the shadows.
Even if she decided to spent her days without thinking too much about it, there was still the great ethical and moral dillema floating about, that everybody would be able to see, that was the genetic connection that made her "Beatrice".
Whatever she chose, she was sure to suffer. But she also suffered by not choosing. All because of the accursed lineage that was burdened upon her.
It was as if destiny was playing with her. But the girl did not know that this was what it meant to live.
George would have surely accepted her even if she came forward with all of this. She would surely be able to live as just "Yasuda Sayo", were she to discard "Beato" and "Kanon".
But that expectation was haunted by Shannon fearing in her heart the "nightmare that George might completely refuse the human that is me."
She knew for herself that George was not a man like that. She knew it, yet the fear would not go away.
And at the brim of her thoughts always lurked that most horrible future, to be refused by that "special someone" right in the moment she decided to pick them.
Then came 1986. It was as every year when the conference was approaching, when a worried Natsuhi spat out in front of the servants:
"For the first time in 6 years, Battler-kun is coming to the family conference"
....why did it have to happen now? Why did he come back now....? This timing, 1986, was more ruthless than any other time.
The duel of love that she had already planned through, now had to be revised to make room for the witch that had been added to this three-way deadlock.
The witch who had sowed none other than the seed called "first love" threw words of ridicule at Shannon who was shedding bloody tears within her heart.
"Aren't you the one who expected Battler's return more than anybody and rejoices more than anybody?!"
"Will you use him as an insurance in case George rejects you? Or will you hop over to Battler right nooow?!"
"Yeees, that's right! No matter who you choose, with that filthy body of yours you will never be bound to anybody!"
Anything and everything seemed against her. She cursed the whole world and her destiny.
As a result of her procrastinating time and time again, there was no strength left in her to face up to the harsh reality,
"I don't want to live in a body like this. If I were just able to undo it all, somehow, then..."
And then, as if it was timed by a demon, lightning illuminated that one passage of the epitaph and her gaze fell upon it.
"And none shall be left alive. And you shall arrive at the Land of Gold."
There existed a spell to invite them all into equality down the path of no return towards the underworld, where they would be released from their cages of flesh....everything could go to the Golden Land.
The gold, weapons, explosives. Preliminary arrangements and the pragmatic means were already in place without her doing. The execution had become possible by chance.
In the summer of 1986, while torrential rains was pouring around her, she secretly carried out a test of the explosives.
They had more power than she had even expected and blew the local shrine to bits.

The execution of her plan would come on the day of the family conference.
There were three eyes on the roulette she had prepared, corresponding to "the witch", "Yasuda Sayo" and "Kanon".
The make-believe murder. The epitaph being solved. And finally, the Golden Land.
This destructive risk, powered by a certain will, would surely bring about a true miracle of magic for her.
At least her expectations seemed to be higher than...
"The likelihood of her plan being stopped before execution, when throwing out a message bottle that sounds so much like a confession," right?!

October 6th 1986, 00:00 midnight.The Rokkenjima Explosion Incident occurs.
There is just one survivor, Ushiromiya Eva. That woman left this world without ever speaking of the incident.
That is why there is noone who knows of the existence of a servant girl who was toying with destiny in the shadows of the events.

...the details of a girl unable to make a decision,
her body wiped away without a trace, and only the ones who were supposed to be on the island that day know of her...

Though I do wonder how much more about Tohya the manga will reveal...

Thanks so much for this translation! It is very interesting.... but it sort of makes me want to curse Ryukishi for being a lazy-ass in the entire Chiru.

A great portion of this is necessary info that should have been in EP7, because heck, it is part of the answer! Apart from that, it sort of confirms Yasu dressing up as Kanon which I really wished wasn't true, but well, since Genji and the others were in on it all the way it can.... sort of... work if we are willing to twist some stuff around.

Anyway, I really like the polydactility idea except... it was never adressed in canon, so why bother put it in now? If Ryukishi had a general idea for that (which he almost certainly did) he should have put it in the actual VNs. Seriously, Chiru is so full of screw-ups here and there, and the manga is only making them stand out more, but at least it is partially making up for them.

That's spoilered as "the true culprit", but...Does that really 100% mean that Yasu was the main culprit who intended to kill everyone and went ahead with her plan successfully?

That does seem to confirm a fake murder game at first, with the intent to make people solve the epitaph. And it looks very much as if Yasu intended to die on Rokkenjima that day, and to at minimum feel ready to set off the bomb at least in theory. But on the face of it it doesn't rule out Yasu not having the nerve or intention to murder anyone else. Or the possibility of the epitaph being solved before Yasu could do anything either way, her giving up, and the adults being the ones to start the killings.

Rather than an actual confession, could it be another attempt by Yasu to mark herself as the culprit? If she wanted to be condemned and judged, she obviously knew what she was doing was objectively wrong and yet went along with it then.... it doesn't sit well with me.

Renall

2014-04-15, 08:36

So hey speaking of things that are objectively wrong according to the story, how about magic?

I mean, let's assume all the above information about Yasu is true. Ultimately, then, we can say that "Yasu" is an illusion and basically every aspect of her identity is a false construction. Yasu isn't "Sayo Yasuda," she isn't female, she isn't a servant, she isn't an orphan. This identity she believed she had fell apart the moment she started looking into it with any sort of critical eye and discovered that, surprise surprise, it wasn't true. The only reason "Yasu" exists at all is because it was more convenient for Genji to lie. But this proved wholly temporary and did nothing to stop any of the negative consequences of the lie.

But it's worse than that, as arguably Bern is correct in a roundabout way and "Lion" is also an unsustainable illusion. "Lion Ushiromiya" as the son of Krauss and Natsuhi was no less an illusion, and his rejection by Natsuhi was essentially because she couldn't bring herself to participate in a fiction. A fiction that was being forced upon her by Kinzo, who wanted it done because it was more convenient than admitting the truth. I'm not saying it was right for her to do what she did (but neither is she), but who the hell does Kinzo think he is to try to make her do that?

So really, when has magic ever helped anyone in Umineko?
The lie of her innocence and fidelity drove Natsuhi to delusion.
The lie that Kinzo would recognize her as a candidate for the headship led Eva to be fueled by her insecurities in the face of the truth that she was perfectly competent without her father's approval, something her husband kept telling her.
The lies surrounding Kinzo's death in no way helped Krauss's financial situation and just put everyone else in his family at risk.
Lying to Kyrie, Asumu, and Battler just ended up completely screwing up Rudolf's family situation for the sake of convenience, and may have done much worse if it had some effect on Kyrie's mental state. If nothing else, it drove her toward a murderous mindset on at least one occasion.
The entire Maria/Rosa relationship is based on Rosa's inability to empathize with Maria being in the same situation she was and Maria's unwillingness to confront the things that are uncomfortable to her. They both made excuses for their behavior.
The Maria/Beatrice relationship is essentially two people who don't like their crappy situations imagining better ones that just reinforce their unhealthy coping mechanisms.
Erika's inability to deal with uncertainty led her to construct fictions she could pretend were reliable truths rather than accept the reality of her feelings.
The catbox is clearly and provably morally wrong and ultimately ended up hurting Ange. Beatrice knew from the start that it was wrong, which is why she wanted someone to stop her, but the allure of the easy lie of the Golden Land was stronger than the difficult truth of living.
Eva refusing to say anything damaged any trust Ange had in her and destroyed their relationship.
Battler's gentle lie in ep8 didn't convince Ange of any of the points he was supposedly trying to convey to her because Ange immediately recognized it was false and refused to understand the intention behind what Battler was doing.
Tohya's very existence is essentially unfair to him, because he's actually a new construction in the body of a different person entirely. Of course this depends on whether Ikuko knew who he was, but man if she did...
Magic is only ever a temporary convenience that causes either you or someone else long-term harm. This seems to be the actual conclusion supported by the text. It clearly wasn't a successful coping mechanism for Yasu, because it didn't let her make a choice and commit to it. She had an excess of illusion and no truth, no wonder she wasn't satisfied with any of it; she hadn't been allowed to have a real identity.

Battler's "there's some things you'd be better off not knowing" argument is, effectively, a dodge. It's evading the fact actually shown by the story that even if his claim were true, it's impossible to avoid at least realizing your ignorance at some point, and that is fundamentally harmful. Yeah, Ange didn't know the truth... but she knew that she didn't know, and that was the source of her pain. Beatrice's fundamental error is creating the catbox without realizing that she could hide the contents of it but not the fact that it exists in the first place. She wasn't really erasing herself. That's impossible, it's a lie, it's magic. There will be consequences for the world as a result of her existence and she cannot wipe that away just by hiding knowledge of her existence.

What did help Ange? Facing the truth. In ep4 she learns to forgive Eva and Rosa and Kasumi through empathy, looking at them as human beings and understanding that they were hurt by people who should have cared about them just like she was. Being able to understand that the people who hurt her weren't inherently evil was cathartic. In ep8 she ultimately can't progress until she knows. Learning the truth doesn't harm her any more than it harmed Yasu; what hurt them was learning the truth after being forced to live years and years with the truth concealed from them out of convenience to others. The truth "hurt" Yasu because she learned that after all this time of "being Yasu," there wasn't a Yasu in the first place. But the only reason that hurt is because some idiot decided "Yasu" was more convenient than fessing up to what they did wrong. Her pain is entirely the making of other people lying about who she was because it was easier to do so, and when it all came crashing down it did so on her head.

So... uh... is the story saying that Bern is right? Because she might be ethically or motivationally wrong in what she does, but she doesn't seem to be factually wrong. She might want to reveal the truth for the wrong reasons (sadism, etc.), but a person can be right for the wrong reason. At the very least, I don't see any particularly good evidence to suggest ep8 Battler is more correct than she is, since his arguments contradict the rest of the story.

haguruma

2014-04-15, 09:26

So... uh... is the story saying that Bern is right? Because she might be ethically or motivationally wrong in what she does, but she doesn't seem to be factually wrong. She might want to reveal the truth for the wrong reasons (sadism, etc.), but a person can be right for the wrong reason. At the very least, I don't see any particularly good evidence to suggest ep8 Battler is more correct than she is, since his arguments contradict the rest of the story.
I think in a way it is and the EP8 manga is really enforcing it at several points that, while Bern is a bully who doesn't mind people suffering for her entertainment, she fulfills a necessary role in the narrative.
The fact alone that Ange so readily runs towards Bern, that she willingly tosses away her "childish dream of her family's return" and throws her life away to get hold of the truth is very indicative of the fact that what Battler is doing is wrong. Ange saying that "Battler is no better than the enemy Beatrice he tried to defeat" is a reasonable argument.

The bases in EP8 are basically turned on their heads, but I wouldn't say that they automatically make the catbox-fraction out to be the good guys. Battler says to Beato that, if needed, he'd use force on Ange to keep her from reading the diary. He literally chains her to his gameboard in the manga. Bern, Eva-Beatrice and Erika are making reasonable arguments by saying that all the misery sorrounding the catbox was a thing of their own doing...Eva-Beato nails it in chapter 17 of the manga, saying: by creating the catbox, by living lifes that gave the public no other chance but to doubt them, by failing to tell the truth at any given point they brought all of this upon themselves.

While Bern is clearly an antagonist, I'd say Battler has become something of a mix between an anti-hero and an anti-villain. He is doing what he thinks is best for the people he loves, but at the same time he doesn't even give them a chance to voice their doubts.
In the manga he admits, there was no Halloween party in 1986, he readily agrees that his tale is a lie, but he'd rather force his sister into not knowing than let her grow by facing the truth.

Ange's answer to Beatrice when she asks, whether Ange had not understood Maria's magic book that they left her, is quite impactful in that regard:
Yes, I understood.
And I despaired over how powerless it is...
And all this, all that what my brother tried forcing on me...
Can I really go on living without knowing?!
The sweet illusion, the catbox all of you built is just a simple trick that tells me that I can go on living by just ignoring the corpses!
But just ignoring them doesn't change the fact they are dead!!
If I just believe then they will all watch over me from up in the clouds...such magic...such an illusion...such a daydream...
Do you really think that they can heal my wounds!?!
There is a thing called reality that magic can't touch!!

Renall

2014-04-15, 09:34

My question would be whether this interpretation is merely emergent as an interpretation of the actual story or whether it was actually intended at any point. I think it's an entirely valid reading, but I honestly wonder whether it's the one we were supposed to have.

I mean it's fine to say that ep8 Battler is by his actions something of a villain or anti-hero, and I'd agree that he comes across as such, but is that really how we're meant to look at him? The fact that we do doesn't necessarily mean that we were supposed to. Milton may not have intended for Satan to come across as heroic in Paradise Lost, he's just read as an anti-hero by some interpretations because he's a remarkably charismatic character with a seemingly valid argument. He might still be an asshole, and he might have always been intended to be an asshole. The anti-hero interpretation might be a more interesting interpretation, but it may or may not be one the author meant.

I mean yadda yadda Death of the Author, we can interpret the message any way we like, but I am still curious as to the moral stance of the author because I feel it's important to judging the character of the work. So I am at least mildly curious if this was Ryukishi's intent all along because man, VN ep8 bungled it badly if so.

haguruma

2014-04-15, 10:01

So I am at least mildly curious if this was Ryukishi's intent all along because man, VN ep8 bungled it badly if so.
Going by the direction that the manga is going, especially the way it highlights things, I think the grey reading of both sides is quite apt. Yes Bern and Erika are still pretty much villains, but it's actually Ange who is depicted as suffering under all of this...something that the VN sorely missed to depict properly, making her end up sounding more like a bitchy, whiny child than anything else. And the PS3 version did it's best (or worst) to make that impression even stronger...seriously I don't know who dropped the ball on the EP8 voice-acting...

Just to show, the scene I mentioned above from the manga:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/27.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/27.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/28.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/28.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/29.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/29.png.html)

AuraTwilight

2014-04-15, 12:42

I like those last two parallels there. Very nice superpositioning of that Yasu frame.

jjblue1

2014-04-15, 19:26

I've mulled over the spoilers but... I think I need to read the manga. While some things are definitely good... there are some developments I find... questionable to say the least so I'm waiting to see them in contest.

Also, really, the more Ep 8 manga version is released the more I think Ep 8 VN was incomplete and poorly handed.

At what point in the thought process did "We'll reassign the child's gender and raise them as a female even though regardless of presented gender sexual activity will be impossible" come to sound like a good idea to Genji? I mean there's a big difference between "I'm male but due to a childhood injury things don't work right" and "I thought I was female, but then puberty hit and I didn't develop like a female in any way and at some point I was finally told that I was actually born sexually male." Why was any of that even necessary? Did Genji think more than 20 minutes ahead and wonder what was going to happen in 12 years or so? It was actually more difficult to do the thing that hurt Yasu more.

Genji is basically gradually being characterized by the manga as a guy who didn't just drop the ball, he spiked it in the endzone directly into Yasu's face and then back-shuffled out of the stadium shooting the middle finger to literally everyone. Like some kind of characterization scapegoat. Why did (nonsensical or traumatic thing) happen? Because Genji is a stupid asshole, next question.

Honestly it's either that or he's retarded. I'm not sure the gender reassignment would stop her from having sex as a female as we don't exactly know how Nanjo performed it but it's sure that, if that was necessary and had such consequences, she should have been at least prepared early. What were they hoping that she would find out by herself and spare them the trouble to tell her? What were they hoping when she started dressing up as a male? Did they even stop a moment and talked to her to understand why was she doing it and which course it was better to take? She should have felt horribly confused maybe wasn't that the moment to explain her some truth about herself?

@jj: That sounds amazing, but I'm not sure that's the right chapter. I read through episode 8 chapter 8 (the third and last chapter of the Halloween party), but the Kinzo/Genji flashback wasn't featured there. I'm curious to see if Kinzo had some screws loose even as a youth, or if he was perfectly stable and balanced during his early, pre-Headship years.

It is. The chapter starts with Kinzo talking about his guns and then being found by Ange. Then Eva asks him about Genji and we get the tale. Is the Ep 8 chap 8 that you're reading counting 46 pages? Because I fear you're missing a part of it. Kinzo's past starts at page 22

Just to show, the scene I mentioned above from the manga:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/27.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/27.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/28.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/28.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/29.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/29.png.html)

Thanks for the translation and yes I like how the manga, differently from the VN, doesn't portray Ange like a spoiled brat but like a desperate young woman.

So hey speaking of things that are objectively wrong according to the story, how about magic?

I mean, let's assume all the above information about Yasu is true. Ultimately, then, we can say that "Yasu" is an illusion and basically every aspect of her identity is a false construction. Yasu isn't "Sayo Yasuda," she isn't female, she isn't a servant, she isn't an orphan. This identity she believed she had fell apart the moment she started looking into it with any sort of critical eye and discovered that, surprise surprise, it wasn't true. The only reason "Yasu" exists at all is because it was more convenient for Genji to lie. But this proved wholly temporary and did nothing to stop any of the negative consequences of the lie.

But it's worse than that, as arguably Bern is correct in a roundabout way and "Lion" is also an unsustainable illusion. "Lion Ushiromiya" as the son of Krauss and Natsuhi was no less an illusion, and his rejection by Natsuhi was essentially because she couldn't bring herself to participate in a fiction. A fiction that was being forced upon her by Kinzo, who wanted it done because it was more convenient than admitting the truth. I'm not saying it was right for her to do what she did (but neither is she), but who the hell does Kinzo think he is to try to make her do that?

So really, when has magic ever helped anyone in Umineko?
The lie of her innocence and fidelity drove Natsuhi to delusion.
The lie that Kinzo would recognize her as a candidate for the headship led Eva to be fueled by her insecurities in the face of the truth that she was perfectly competent without her father's approval, something her husband kept telling her.
The lies surrounding Kinzo's death in no way helped Krauss's financial situation and just put everyone else in his family at risk.
Lying to Kyrie, Asumu, and Battler just ended up completely screwing up Rudolf's family situation for the sake of convenience, and may have done much worse if it had some effect on Kyrie's mental state. If nothing else, it drove her toward a murderous mindset on at least one occasion.
The entire Maria/Rosa relationship is based on Rosa's inability to empathize with Maria being in the same situation she was and Maria's unwillingness to confront the things that are uncomfortable to her. They both made excuses for their behavior.
The Maria/Beatrice relationship is essentially two people who don't like their crappy situations imagining better ones that just reinforce their unhealthy coping mechanisms.
Erika's inability to deal with uncertainty led her to construct fictions she could pretend were reliable truths rather than accept the reality of her feelings.
The catbox is clearly and provably morally wrong and ultimately ended up hurting Ange. Beatrice knew from the start that it was wrong, which is why she wanted someone to stop her, but the allure of the easy lie of the Golden Land was stronger than the difficult truth of living.
Eva refusing to say anything damaged any trust Ange had in her and destroyed their relationship.
Battler's gentle lie in ep8 didn't convince Ange of any of the points he was supposedly trying to convey to her because Ange immediately recognized it was false and refused to understand the intention behind what Battler was doing.
Tohya's very existence is essentially unfair to him, because he's actually a new construction in the body of a different person entirely. Of course this depends on whether Ikuko knew who he was, but man if she did...
Magic is only ever a temporary convenience that causes either you or someone else long-term harm. This seems to be the actual conclusion supported by the text. It clearly wasn't a successful coping mechanism for Yasu, because it didn't let her make a choice and commit to it. She had an excess of illusion and no truth, no wonder she wasn't satisfied with any of it; she hadn't been allowed to have a real identity.

Battler's "there's some things you'd be better off not knowing" argument is, effectively, a dodge. It's evading the fact actually shown by the story that even if his claim were true, it's impossible to avoid at least realizing your ignorance at some point, and that is fundamentally harmful. Yeah, Ange didn't know the truth... but she knew that she didn't know, and that was the source of her pain. Beatrice's fundamental error is creating the catbox without realizing that she could hide the contents of it but not the fact that it exists in the first place. She wasn't really erasing herself. That's impossible, it's a lie, it's magic. There will be consequences for the world as a result of her existence and she cannot wipe that away just by hiding knowledge of her existence.

What did help Ange? Facing the truth. In ep4 she learns to forgive Eva and Rosa and Kasumi through empathy, looking at them as human beings and understanding that they were hurt by people who should have cared about them just like she was. Being able to understand that the people who hurt her weren't inherently evil was cathartic. In ep8 she ultimately can't progress until she knows. Learning the truth doesn't harm her any more than it harmed Yasu; what hurt them was learning the truth after being forced to live years and years with the truth concealed from them out of convenience to others. The truth "hurt" Yasu because she learned that after all this time of "being Yasu," there wasn't a Yasu in the first place. But the only reason that hurt is because some idiot decided "Yasu" was more convenient than fessing up to what they did wrong. Her pain is entirely the making of other people lying about who she was because it was easier to do so, and when it all came crashing down it did so on her head.

So... uh... is the story saying that Bern is right? Because she might be ethically or motivationally wrong in what she does, but she doesn't seem to be factually wrong. She might want to reveal the truth for the wrong reasons (sadism, etc.), but a person can be right for the wrong reason. At the very least, I don't see any particularly good evidence to suggest ep8 Battler is more correct than she is, since his arguments contradict the rest of the story.

I think the problem is the text tried to deliver too many messages at once and ended up making them confuse.

Let's start with 'magic as copying mechanism'.
Magic as copying mechanism is like giving a painkiller drug to tone down the pain. At a certain point you've to stop using it or you'll get addicted and you'll need more and more until it won't work anymore. In addition to this, like a painkiller drug it doesn't heal the problem, it just stops the pain temporally.
If Yasu had, like Shannon in Ep 2, merely contended herself with ‘using magic’ to find the courage to start something and then decided to drop magic and continue with her own power it wouldn’t have been so bad. She’s not Shannon of Ep 2 though, she’s completely dependant on magic she doesn’t believe she can make her relationship work without constantly using it.

‘Magic as an embellishment of the process’ isn’t harmful if the parties involved know the truth and don’t lose sight of it. Kinzo and Bice seem to play on the idea she’s a witch and it’s just a game. The problem exists when one of the two parties involved starts deluding herself it’s not an embellishment. Maria believes Sakutarou is real and she’s crushed when he ‘dies’. Ange starts to believe the 7 sisters are real as well and is crushed when they reveal herself for useless. They lost sight of a truth they knew, that Sakutarou is a toy and the 7 sisters a fantasy.
Harm can come also when one of the parties involved doesn’t know it’s an embellishment. Berune gets seriously scared when she believes Beatrice has played a prank on her. The servant who got injured might have ended up injured merely because she thought she saw something, got scared and fell.

‘Magic as a downright lie’ has the potential to become seriously harmful. Actually in real life there could be cases in which this doesn’t happen as the lie doesn’t get discovered and the lied part lives in blissful ignorance of the harmful truth but in Umineko we see lies end up always poisoning the existence of the people who’re feed them. Starting from Kinzo’s wife (Kinzo lied to her claiming he went for walks when he was meeting his daughter) and going through Kuwadorian Beatrice, Natsuhi, Asumu, Kyrie, Yasu, Battler, Erika, Maria, Tohya and reaching Ange (who was told by Eva she didn’t know what had happened) they all suffer harm from it. None of the lies told to them lead them to a ‘happy ending’.

‘Magic as faith/hope’ can work only as long as you don’t become dependant on it. Ange goes on with her life but keeps on hoping on Battler’s return and he’ll sort of come back. Yasu instead will depend so much on Battler’s return that she won’t be able to make anything, sustaining that hope will become too heavy and she will doom herself. It isn’t necessarily a delusion as Erika seems to believe, it’s just something on which you must not bet all you have or you might end up on losing everything. Not all the boyfriends betray their girlfriends like Erika’s boyfriend seems to do but some surely did. Rudolf betrayed… everyone, really, Maria’s father used Rosa, Hideyoshi and Krauss were loyal to their wives. Not all the loves were a lie unworthy of faith but some were.

As for truth, truth can be harmful. In order for it not to be people must be capable to withstand it. The key point in Umineko is that with good or bad reasons people refuse to help the ones facing the truth to help them withstand it. It becomes an aut aut. Either I won’t tell you the truth and I’ll leave you in harmful ignorance or I’ll tell you the truth in the most harmful way. No one thinks the truth is unpleasant but leaving this person in ignorance might do more harm than good so I’ll find a way to present the truth that’s not a lie but that won’t come as a crushing blow. If Yasu had slowly been prepared to the truth about herself and Kinzo instead than having the bomb dropped on her she might have managed to face it. If Ange had slowly be prepared to face the truth about Rokkenjima in the same way as her trip in Ep 4 seems to prepare her to face the truth about humans beings she might have managed to face the truth instead than jumping on self destruction like in Ep 7 & 8.
The key problem in Umineko is that people aren’t simply willing to do an effort to help others cope with the truth. They’re either in the party that want to hide it or to reveal it but there’s no middle ground and both solutions come out as harmful. Honestly in Ep 8 I was hoping the whole Halloween party was Battler’s idea to gently prepare Ange to the truth, not to force her to accept to a lie. Helping her to remember that her family wasn’t formed by bad people might help her to accept that in a desperate moment they did the wrong thing… but it doesn’t have to become the illusion that they never did anything wrong.
I understand Battler/Tohya’s fear of the truth as it almost erased Battler in Ep 4 and it put Tohya on a wheelchair but the problem is they didn’t learn from their experiences the right lesson which is if they had been helped to face the truth instead of having it tossed at them, they wouldn’t have reacted to it so badly. All they seem to have learnt from it is truth caused me harm so let’s hide it as there’s no way to cope with it without risking to die in the process.
On the opposite side Ange seems to expect that truth will magically do her some good when it’s not knowing truth what’ll help her but her stance once she’ll know the truth. Deep down she’s expecting truth will be nice or at least acceptable and not as horrible as it is. While her claims are true all her quest for the truth seems to come down to give her two options: if the truth is good then it’ll improve her life, if the truth isn’t good it’ll give her the strength to kill herself.
We don’t need to read the book of one single truth to figure out that if Battler and Eva wanted to hide the truth is because the truth isn’t good so Ange’s quest is basically aimed not at finding the truth and copying with it but at finding the truth and using it as an excuse to self destruction.
In the VN this came out pretty badly, presenting her as a spoiled child, the manga at least gives full deep to her desperation. She can’t stand her present situation and she’s so deep into desperation that she can’t find a way out for good or for bad.
Like Yasu she wants to escape to her fate but she’s doing it in the wrong way.

Maybe the odd thing in Umineko is that it tends to focus more on how people do mistakes than on people doing the right things. No one does the right thing and the sense of wrongness is increased by the fact there isn’t actually something that could be done for the Rokkenjima tragedy as it had already happened and no one can unmake it. Ep 6, Lion, Ep 8, they’re all lies. People messed up and things can’t be fixed. No one will be resurrected. No one will manage to make it right again. No one will learn from his/her mistakes. And since it seems the manga implied Ange died as well… no one will make things right with Ange either. If Ange died the good ending is also an illusion. Ange won’t cope with the truth. Showing it to her like that was a mistake like hiding it from her. No one will take the third option, telling the truth in a way she could accept it.

I'm curious to see where the manga will go, but if the truth is that Ange died then Bern and Lambda about how the story couldn't end with a good ending are tragically true as the only way to get a good ending would be a fantasy ending in which Ange didn't kill herself but coped with the truth. Or, in short, a lie.

Kuroberus

2014-04-16, 09:26

The part of the goat self-censor in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q6iqSk_pQM 12:34 is pretty audible about who the culprit is(I think).

"After all, ***********, **********!!"
Possessing faint Japanese knowledge, I'm sure I heard
"Ushiromiya Eva ------- ja nai!!"
" ---------- da yo!!"(Really inaudible because of that sound)

Non verbatim, and adding context from before and after scenes, I think it means "After all, Ushiromiya Eva is not the culprit!!" I don't understand what is said next, but basing on Ange's reactions about not accepting it, insisting that Eva is the culprit and that Kyrie, Rudolph and Battler are the victims; the culprits are Battler's family.

I'm not sure about Battler but I have ridiculous freebie blue truth with respect to Ougon Musou Kyoku:
"Black Battler's 2nd palette looking like Tohya Hachijo makes it look like Battler is part of the culprit theory."

Renall

2014-04-16, 11:42

The problem is less who, but why and to what extent, and that's something Eva presumably didn't know. Battler's involvement, for example, is portrayed in two distinctly different ways: In the ep7 Tea Party he seems very much against any criminal activity, but in Bern's ep8 purple game he's outright helping his parents commit murder.

I think there are a few common elements that seem to indicate something is up:
Yasu was planning a fake murder of some sort, but what she really wanted was for the epitaph to be solved so someone could stop her.
The epitaph was very likely solved.
At some point, people other than the adults die or appear to be dead; Eva seems to know or believes she knows how the other adults died assuming we take the ep7 TP as similar to her diary (although it can't be a fully accurate depiction), but she didn't directly witness any other deaths as far as we're told so far in the VN and manga.
Eva believes that Kyrie and Rudolf were responsible, and they do not deny it, but neither are their motives as clear as Eva might insinuate she thinks they are. Kyrie's final speech about Ange in particular is clearly manipulative and carefully designed.
Eva appears not to know the extent of Battler's involvement, and may not have had any contact with him whatsoever. He effectively seems to just disappear, but we know that he survived somehow.
The thing that sticks out to me is the notion of somebody faking their death. It happens constantly:
Shannon fakes her death in ep1, then Kanon does the same.
Arguable in ep2, but Kanon didn't "really" die and appears later according to Gohda.
Yasu is supposedly faking death in ep3, and some interpretations allow this to be true for other characters (briefly) later.
The circumstances of Kumasawa and Gohda's deaths in ep4 have the appearance of a fake hanging, although they turn out to be real murders when Battler investigates further.
The First Twilight of ep5 is clearly faked.
Battler fakes his death in ep6 along with the others. Additionally, Erika kills people who are faking death to "confirm" it.
Eva isn't actually dead in the ep7 TP when shot and essentially "returns from the dead" later.
The ep8 purple game revolves around Battler lying about his parents' death.
This leads me to believe that someone was faking their death, but I'm not sure how this ties into actual events. There's an obvious impetus for someone to do so, because Yasu apparently intended the murder game to be fake. The bomb was the fallback according to the manga, so it reads like she wasn't going to directly murder anyone under any circumstances and just let the bomb go off if nobody stopped her. The question is how this squares up with the narrative of the adults fighting over the gold (because it seems like a fake murder would be irrelevant if the adults started the chaos by shooting one another) and with what Yasu was doing. The other unanswered question is who solved the epitaph. We're told the parents can solve it together, and we're also told that Battler has the ability to solve it. Ep7 implies the adults did it, but ep1-4 implied that the adults were usually not inclined to do it until the fake murders started because they simply didn't take Beatrice's letter seriously.

So I wonder if either Battler was the one who solved the epitaph (and informed all the adults) or if Battler participated in faking his death as part of Yasu's "murders" and this spurred the adults to solve it and then tensions ran high because they didn't know the deaths weren't real. Kyrie snapping and going on a killing spree would make an awful lot more sense if Rudolf had just told her that Battler was her son and Battler was apparently just murdered, for example. In ep6, when Rudolf believes Battler is dead, he has a breakdown about it too. If the adults had some reason to suspect the other adults then anybody's children turning up "dead" would put them on edge. Although then we run up against the problem of "Beatrice's" confession to them in the gold room. Given that she's playing up the witch role you'd think she'd mention something about how everyone who "died" was "revived" if that was part of the script. But maybe she didn't get that far before the shooting started.

The missing point of view in all of these events is Battler's. The VN didn't touch on his direct recollection of events very clearly (unless, as has been suggested, ep4 was sort of his perspective on events), and the manga may or may not. It's especially important in the instance where Battler saw something really important that Eva didn't see, or knew about something Eva didn't know (like a murder game). It's obvious why Ange might suspect he was involved since popular theories at the time often included him as a culprit in theories about his family, but he's really the only person who would know for sure as Eva seemingly didn't.

Drifloon

2014-04-16, 11:51

So, um, just for clarity's sake...what exactly is that page that haguruma just translated (and thanks a lot for that, by the way)? It seems to be a summary of what was revealed in the latest EP8 manga chapters, but is it actually written by Ryukishi or is it just a fan's impressions?

In particular I really want to know about this part:
Whatever she chose, she was sure to suffer. But she also suffered by not choosing. All because of the accursed lineage that was burdened upon her.
It was as if destiny was playing with her. But the girl did not know that this was what it meant to live.
George would have surely accepted her even if she came forward with all of this. She would surely be able to live as just "Yasuda Sayo", were she to discard "Beato" and "Kanon".
But that expectation was haunted by Shannon fearing in her heart the "nightmare that George might completely refuse the human that is me."
She knew for herself that George was not a man like that. She knew it, yet the fear would not go away.
...and whether any of that is actually said straight out in the manga or whether it's just the interpretation of the person who made this particular summary. Because if Ryukishi actually wrote all that himself, then...well, I certainly have things to say about that.

haguruma

2014-04-16, 13:05

...and whether any of that is actually said straight out in the manga or whether it's just the interpretation of the person who made this particular summary. Because if Ryukishi actually wrote all that himself, then...well, I certainly have things to say about that.
It is a fan summary but it keeps vey close to what we already know from other sources and what is apparently featured in chapters 25 and 26 of the EP8 manga (though I have to confirm that myself in two weeks).

We know that Ryukishi said, George would have accepted Sayo even if she had told him the truth, way back in his interview with Keiya in Answer of the Golden Witch
. The nightmare with George saying to her face that she disgusts him, was featured on a blog that puts some selected pages or panels online when chapters are released.
The whole aspect of the cursed lineage is a little hazier, since so far the only excerpts we have show that this is what Yasu was thinking about herself after she learned of being the child of a rapist and conceived in incest...so she basically blames her genes for her desire towards her cousin-nephews/niece.

I do wonder what you have to say about these parts though...I'm still collecting my thoughts :heh:

Btw. concerning what Renall said earlier about Bern's rather strange role of not being exactly wrong while still being an antagonist...
The opening pages of chapter 20 are quite interesting regarding that, especially if you DO read Bern as the same Bernkastel from Higurashi:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/03.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/03.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/04.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/04.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/05.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/05.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/06.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/06.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/07.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/07.png.html)
If we do read this in a more positive light for Bern, then we could say that she experienced "not knowing" as a prison (in Higurashi) in which she was forced to live and die in pain again and again, while "knowing" released her from that prison. For her there is just misery in "not knowing", so that explains her desire to rip the guts out of a story, to know everything there is to know.

Or...well....she could just be an ass that is accidentally right :eyebrow:

And since I didn't really notice the posts before...
EDIT:
So I wonder if either Battler was the one who solved the epitaph (and informed all the adults) or if Battler participated in faking his death as part of Yasu's "murders" and this spurred the adults to solve it and then tensions ran high because they didn't know the deaths weren't real.
The problem we run into with the second option is that the EP8 manga pretty clearly rules out the possibility of Battler ever ACTUALLY becoming a knowing accomplicee in Yasu's plot.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/25.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/25.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/26.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/26.png.html)
Having Battler as an accomplicee basically defeats Yasu's goal and modus operandi...so, while it's not impossible, it just is very unlikely to happen...
What it does tell is though is, that the adults, or at least Kyrie and Rudolph, might have had a very clear reason to take Battler with them to the island and leave Ange at home...

Renall

2014-04-16, 13:16

If we do read this in a more positive light for Bern, then we could say that she experienced "not knowing" as a prison (in Higurashi) in which she was forced to live and die in pain again and again, while "knowing" released her from that prison. For her there is just misery in "not knowing", so that explains her desire to rip the guts out of a story, to know everything there is to know.

Or...well....she could just be an ass that is accidentally right :eyebrow:
The translation is a bit ambiguous but this particular exchange appears to be Bern countering the "sometimes it's better to not know" argument with arguments of her own:
Not knowing things can be harmful.
While you can't go from knowledge to ignorance, you can pretend to be ignorant, or deny the truth, or concoct a fantasy, etc., so Bern sees doing that as no different (and possibly superior?).
The process of gaining knowledge is a positive thing, and choosing to remain ignorant is a sin.
Featherine's counter-argument is that not knowing about painful things can spare you from experiencing that pain, but I don't think Bern is convinced and I'm certainly not either. Bern's arguments are actually pretty convincing, I think. One could easily summarize the latter panels as an argument that while Ange's decision to seek the truth may cause her pain, it will also bring an end to her story one way or the other. Cynically you could say Bern is interested in that just so she knows how the story ends, but taking a more sympathetic tack you could argue she's saying that no matter how Ange chooses to obtain closure after gaining the truth, she will have closure.
Having Battler as an accomplicee basically defeats Yasu's goal and modus operandi...so, while it's not impossible, it just is very unlikely to happen...
What it does tell is though is, that the adults, or at least Kyrie and Rudolph, might have had a very clear reason to take Battler with them to the island and leave Ange at home...
He wouldn't participate in a crime, but he might participate for other reasons. The difference in ep5 I think is that he normally wouldn't participate in something like the plan to pressure Natsuhi, but that's because doing that would torment Natsuhi for someone else's gain. It's a bit like Virgilia saying Beatrice wouldn't do things for certain reasons. I'm not sure it means Battler would never participate (as otherwise, how do we explain Dawn).

EDIT: As an example, Battler could come in on a game or something if he actually did solve Yasu's intended riddle. Or if he remembered. Or any number of other reasons. He just couldn't be bribed to become an accomplice ahead of time, because he normally cannot be bribed and Yasu normally wouldn't intend to make him an accomplice. He could become one through all sorts of ways of his own volition though.

haguruma

2014-04-16, 13:53

I'm not sure it means Battler would never participate (as otherwise, how do we explain Dawn).
The question that still stands is, do EP5 and 6 depict any part of what actually happened (besides obvious hints to the fake murders, the tricks basically being laid out for us, gaining a better perspective on the influence of the meta-perspective) as in what actually could have happened in the actual 1986...

EP6 is more or less a giant troll against Erika without ANY other motivation besides the Duel of Love going on at the same time. The most confusing part is that Battler is basically in on the fake murders, but there is no reason for the fake murders in EP6...besides trolling Erika...because he basically already whitewashed all the characters into their version they also appear as in his EP8

In EP6 Battler plays along because there is nothing big to play along with. The only hint we could take from this is Erika's repetition of Rosa's EP2 motto, "You can only trust the corpses you killed yourself"
Does that mean that maybe somebody re-killed somebody? If yes, why?
And if not, we basically run into the "and they had a wonderful time until the island exploded" story again.

The problem with Battler playing along is not the believability of him doing so (well, not that alone) but of finding a believable reason of why Yasu would tell him, because the adults not knowing that he is pretending implies that it is Yasu's plan.
The reason for her to hold the fake murders is for her wanting Battler to solve them...him knowing about it and actually playing along kinda defeats that

EDIT:
And wouldn't him solving the fake murders make Yasu stop immediately, because it'd mean that Battler came through for her after all??

Renall

2014-04-16, 14:07

As far as we know, Yasu did stop, or possibly she didn't get started, and if your summaries are accurate probably never intended to "actually" directly kill anyone by any standard means. If people were actually killed directly, ep7 and ep8 seem to be saying the parents were responsible, not Yasu.

Battler and Beatrice appear to be in collusion in ep6. We don't know why, because the game is handled almost entirely in the meta and is derailed. But we could say something similar for ep5 and yet the manga still tells us that there in fact was a Battler/Beatrice collusion. That seems oddly significant for Chiru's purposes, as Battler is essentially shown three times in a row to be in on the plan. In ep5 he's bribed into it, which is explicitly out of character. In ep6 we don't know why he's participating, but he seems to be doing so voluntarily. In ep8, he and Beatrice act like they're partners in crime (although admittedly that's Battler's happy world and that could just be the way he and Beato liked it, but still).

A lot of Yasu's plans for Battler presuppose that he will arrive not already remembering and will have to be reminded. We don't actually know that Battler would've been in that state, as we seem to know very little about Battler-Prime at the moment. Who's to say Battler doesn't immediately suspect Yasu when the letter arrives at dinner and solves the epitaph by himself on the first night? He meets her, they decide to go forward with the fake murders anyway (for Reason X, let's say they decide they want the adults to solve it together so they'll get the gold and be happy because they're nice dummies). They rope some servants or maybe the other cousins into it. The adults explode because they're on edge about "murders" and, while they do solve the epitaph, it doesn't have the result Battler and Yasu expected.

That's just a thought, but my point is Battler being completely out of the loop like he is in the first stories is a supposition on Yasu's part. Unfortunately, since we don't know anything about what Battler did, we can only sort of guess at it. We know that Battler must have:
Escaped being murdered by anyone, either because the killers didn't want to kill him or didn't find him.
Wasn't killed by Eva, either because she didn't think he was responsible, didn't encounter him, or she tried to kill him and failed.
Wasn't killed in the explosion, meaning he has to have learned about the tunnels at some point.
Somehow found (or was shown) a way to leave the island, presumably by means of a boat like that one scene at the end of ep8.
But that leaves a lot of gaps and says little about his mindset or motives.

haguruma

2014-04-16, 15:11

But that leaves a lot of gaps and says little about his mindset or motives.
That is true and I kind of like the "Battler and Yasu only wanted to have some stupid fun" idea, but if that were the case then it would derail some of the Battler characterization at the end of the core-arcs and the start of Chiru. Especially the scene at the end of EP5, where Battler is mourning over the ashes of Beatrice and laments how he would have wanted to find her sooner and if only she hadn't made her riddle so hard to solve...even if we take this to be Tohya, it kind of hints towards Battler never actively knowing who that person on the island was.

And yes, Battler in EP1 and 2 is clearly designed by Yasu, but meta-Battler from the start is very likely the Battler within Tohya and from EP3 onwards Piece-Battler is also no longer drawn by Yasu.
If we go through this:

EPISODE 1 & 2:
Piece-Battler (by Yasu):
He's very much out of the loop about the whole story but tries to be heroic at more than one point. He clearly cares about the family, the cousins and the servants but is designed to be kind of a goofball and pretty gullible.

EPISODE 3:
Piece-Battler (by Ikuko??):
He's still out of the loop, but the interesting thing is that he is not actively trying to do anything like he did in EP1 and 2. He's a little bit more scared by the whole situation but there is also clearly no witch illusion this time around (which draws an interesting parallel to EP5). He's also a lot readier to accuse people and act irrationally.
This is also the only time that 07151129 plays an active part in the island plot and Battler is shown to draw no immediate connection to it.

EPISODE 4:
Piece-Battler (by Tohya??):
His only real action comes at the end and he's shown to be very much investigative and trying to find stuff out, very different from his EP1 and 2 self. The rest of the time he clearly listens to the parents advice, but he is also shown to be close with the cousins. This is also the only time Battler meets with the witch before the time runs out and he doesn't recognize her or draw any parallels.

EPISODE 5:
Piece-Battler (by ????):
It's interesting because Piece-Battler here is played not by Battler but has his role assigned by Lambda. He is an accomplicee this time around and is at least controlled by the parents. He is said to know about Shkannon, but since the true culprits motive is different the whole game is off and him knowing about her doesn't mean much.
Battler is a much darker and brooding character than he was in the first four games and seems pretty disgusted by what the parents are doing around and to him. There is also this very interesting seen at the very end of the gameboard-plot in Natsuhi's room, when Battler intervenes with his usual catch-phrase...which in this case could actually be read as him standing up against the parents and their plot to humiliate Natsuhi any further...which would play a very nice parallel to the battler in the Court of Illusion.

EPISODE 6:
Piece-Battler (by Tohya):
In this one he clearly knows what is going on and this causes Battler to be almost a non-existence as a piece. He dies fairly early on, but I'd say it's also for the reason that this Battler is highly illogical. He is clearly working with Yasu's plan (which is kinda his plan in this version) but the Duel of Love is still going on, there is also a completely different reason for the epitaph-murders, basically making EVERYBODY in on it except Erika (at least it's implied that the father's and servants are in on it too)...but Erika is a non-existence.

EPISODE 7:
Piece-Battler (by Eva??):
The only thing we get in this plotline is that Battler had feelings for Shannon once and actually did want to meet her again but things came up and he wasn't able to.

So....yeah...Battler is a pretty confusing mess of a character. I really do hope the manga will shed at least a little bit more light on him, because right now he ends up as a pretty weird guy in my book. Especially with "him" (well Meta-Battler/Tohya) claiming in the EP8 manga, that it is all his responsibility for making "that person" create the catbox.

And this:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/46.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/46.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/47.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/47.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/48.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/48.png.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/49_50.png (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/49_50.png.html)

Renall

2014-04-16, 15:27

I don't think we can trust Tohya's characterization of Battler any more than we can trust Yasu's characterization of Battler, because like her he knows only so much about Battler's personality, past, and actions. How much about "himself" has he recalled, and how much has he learned from external sources? We're outright told that he does not remember everything and he doesn't feel like he is Battler; Battler is a stranger, just a stranger he finds himself knowing things about in an unnerving way.

If Tohya were to deduce or recall that there was a promise, that Yasu was a person he knew, that there were things going on between his former self and her, then he might reach certain conclusions based upon future evidence. That is, "the explosion happened, so clearly I (that is, 'Battler') must have failed to remember my promise." That certainly might sound like a reasonable proposition, but it also might be an incorrect one. It would be the same thing as concluding "since the bomb went off, Yasu must've intended for it to go off and allowed it to do so." But ep7 shows us that Yasu can tell other people about it, so even if she'd intended to disarm it someone else could've armed it thereafter. Again, reasonable put potentially wrong, especially if Yasu was not in fact a murderer.

Another issue you bring up is the "Why didn't he come home?" angle, which just adds more questions. We know he chose to leave the island, apparently by himself (or with Yasu, depending on your take on ep8). At the very least, he didn't do what Eva did and stay put until the police came. At some point after this he becomes Tohya (or the genesis of the consciousness that will eventually come to be known as such). Erika's position that he can't come home at that point in ep8 is based on the presumption that Battler can't because he, like everyone else, is dead. But he wasn't, at least not on October 6th. So what was his plan? Where was it he intended to go?

And perhaps a meta-question being asked of Tohya through Erika is "if you know you're Battler, why didn't you contact Ange?" But that at least has an understandable answer (albeit one Meta-Battler can't provide), in that Tohya doesn't necessarily think of himself as Battler anyway and might be worried about the inadequacy of presenting himself to Ange when he's really just a stranger with broken fragmentary memories of the person she's hoping to see.

jjblue1

2014-04-16, 17:32

About Battler's involvement:
It can be that Battler was involved in something, just not Yasu's game. It might be he and the cousins planned a Halloween prank for Maria for example (in Ep 6 Battler agreed to play dead because Erika was a jerk to Maria and he wanted to teach her a lesson).
It can also be that even if Yasu didn't want Battler to be involved, Rudolf and Kyrie decided to involve him anyway. They might have tattled out on him that Kinzo is dead (which is what Yasu tattled out on them) and asked his cooperation while at the same time keeping the thing secret from the others.
In short they feared for troubles and wanted an extra help from a direction no one would expect.
Rudolf is desperate after all so he and Kyrie might be planning desperate measures.

About the re-killing:
We don't really know at which point the game was when the epitaph was solved. We get the impression murders should start after midnight but if they're fake murders the servants could have been asked to play dead while Yasu was in the basement with the adults and when Rudolf and Kyrie left the place they found a bunch of "dead servants".
Or the cousins playing dead to prank someone.
Let's assume at this point they ended up saying something like "Wait, I just killed Eva and Hideyoshi but I didn't touch their son" in front of a supposedly dead George and you can have George resurrect quite hurriedly.
It can also be that an argument took place between George and Battler because George admitted he stole Battler's ex-girlfriend and Battler didn't take it as smoothly as one would think. The two have a fight, Battler is hit and assumed dead, Rudolf and Kyrie don't take it well. Then while they're on a rampage Battler wakes up, maybe in a confusional state and find Kyrie about to die. She tells him of the passage and he escapes.

About Prime being like Ep 4 or not

The real problem is we don't know if Ep 4 is merely a story Tohya created and that Bern used as a model to cover the parts Eva's diary didn't touch to create Ep 7 Teaparty or the real deal.
Ep 4 and Ep 7 have in common the idea of Kinzo's test but they go at it very differently.
Ep 4 presents it rather dramatically, with the siblings believing people had already been killed and the others are prisoniers while in Ep 7 is merely an excuse to get the cousins out of the room... which isn't even really necessary. Kyrie and Rudolf might have waited till they fell asleep and then killed them.
They couldn't leave the island so they weren't in a hurry.

About Battler & Yasu
An interesting point the VN implies subtly is that actually Battler liked Sayo but that he realized he came back too late and therefore couldn't claim rights on her.

There's an interesting bit in Ep 5, in which he talks to Beatrice but that could apply to Yasu as well in which he claims if she had had faith in him and had waited for him he would have came back for her... so it can be he came back for her, and inf act he doesn't come back in Ep 7 in which there's no Shannon.

However Ep 6 might also imply that Battler, who came back for Shannon, by finding a Shannon that wasn't the one he remembered, might not have reacted as smoothly as the other episodes implied he would act. Meta Battler is cold to Beato and wants his own Beato back and even tries to do something to get her to remember how she was before.
Unless this is supposed to be a parallel to what Kinzo did, it can reveal something about what happened on Prime.

About Battler and the Golden Land:
Honestly I've been stuck by the parallel between the Golden Land and the world in which Battler lived those 6 years. Maybe it's coincidental but Battler seems to claim he was having lot of fun in those 6 years and was very busy but in the end never told us exactly what he was doing. There are subtle hints they mgith not have been so fun.
However for 6 years he doesn't come back to Shannon nor, apparently, invites her to come to him. And he promised her he would be back, same way he promised Ange he would be back.

It's also interesting how Erika raises a good point, there are people who change their life because they knew something. Battler agrees there are and he knows Ange's life is terrible and yet he's sure Ange won't change in the better by reading that book.
What is making him so sure? Does he know Ange so well?
Or his is only wishful thinking because Ange has already read the book and had killed herself and he's just wishing he could rewind and have her take another path?
Or something else is stopping him from believing that by knowing the truth or that particular truth a person could cope with it and move toward a better life?

Of course it can also be Tohya's guilt speaking. He didn't want to be Battler so he refused to meet Ange... but then he might have felt guilty for this. He could have 'gone back home' but refused. To him Battler is dead so Ange can't reach him.

Really, it'll be nice if the manga were to tell us more about Battler's side as well. There are things about him that are quite unclear.

About the games

We've been worrying a lot in the past about how much Tohya remembers while writing the episodes but I wonder if this matters. With Ikuko having Yasu's confession as well as the media informations and the two messages which outlined Yasu's plan the books could be written even if Tohya doesn't remember a single detail of what had happened during those 2 days.

The setting for the 4 episodes supposedly authored by Tohya is, after all, pretty different.
For Battler's point of view Ep 3 have people dying with the adults taking care of the cousins and apparently unaware of what's going on, people is discovered dead, Kyrie did 'something odd' and Eva is suspected as culprit.
Ep 4 have the cousins always unaware but the adults are either killed or prisoners. Kyrie is one of the last getting killed but Eva dies pretty soon.
Ep 5 have the cousins minus Battler 'dying' but Battler believes he knows what's going on and the plot focus on making Natsuhi a scapegoat while keeping Erika in the dark of what's going on.
Ep 6 have Battler aware of what's going on until Erika starts acting crazy. In short the last episodes presents Battler as much more aware of things than the earliest which would contrast with the Teaparty in which he doesn't know a thing.

About the translations

A huge THANK YOU to haguruma for always providing translations! They're very apprecciated!

Agiel

2014-04-18, 16:00

Hey all! Long time lurker here, but kuroberus' post got me interested, so I rooted around in the umineko gamefiles for the audio of the goats. It turns out that along with the audio of all the goats speaking together, they have each track separately.
The messages are as follows (excuse my poor Japanese)
The first one is these two layered over each other:
Datte, hoka ni ikinokotteru hito ni wa inai ja nai?
After all, there aren't any other survivors, right?
Datte, anta igai wa minna shinda!
After all, everyone but you died!
The second line seems to be both of these layered over each other:
Ushiromiyaka de ikinokotteru wa anta dake da yo!
You're the only surviving member of the ushiromiya family!
Sore ga nani yori no shouko ni naru no yo
This line is slightly above my level of japanese, someone could probably provide a much better translation than I can here
Hope this helps!
Edit: Forgot to mention this, but it seems like one line is spoken by eva and one by eva-beatrice. They're distorted in the final product, but the individual lines sound very much like the two.

GuestSpeaker

2014-04-18, 22:43

Dr. Casey

2014-04-18, 23:37

It is. The chapter starts with Kinzo talking about his guns and then being found by Ange. Then Eva asks him about Genji and we get the tale. Is the Ep 8 chap 8 that you're reading counting 46 pages? Because I fear you're missing a part of it. Kinzo's past starts at page 22

Thanks, I managed to find it after browsing a few different websites; the original page I used accidentally duplicated chapter 9 for both chapters 8 and 9. It was shorter than I was hoping for, but as someone who finds Kinzo really fascinating it was a great read just the same. Neat how much people can change across a lifetime; during their youths Kinzo and Genji were perfectly decent guys that weren't offensive or controversial in any way (heck, Kinzo came across as typical shounen hero material), a huge contrast to the shady old men we know during the series proper that have a checkered past and are the masterminds behind about six hundred different conspiracies. Kinzo probably has the most defined life story out of anyone in Umineko: the perfectly normal child and adolescent that loved his hometown, the despondent Family Head that found life to be gray and meaningless, the feared tyrant and ruthless businessman rejuvenated by his experiences in the war and with Beatrice, and the bitter, remorseful, scary old man that became progressively more reclusive and obsessed with black magic during his final years. He really is an interesting person.

Kealym

2014-04-19, 04:21

How much sense does it make to continue doubting Battler's character when it's been so ... consistent?At least as consistent as everybody else's, save Kinzo.

Furthermore, if you'd argue that Tohya's memories of Battler were fragmentary at the time of his writing forgeries, then he would barely be able to write anybody because Battler is the only person he even knows kinda sorta well. All 17 other humans are virtually strangers to him.

Still pretty convinved that the relative accuracy of the characters portrayals is something we're just tupposed to assume. We arguably never get a verifiably objective representation of the human characters, but it does start to sound like rather wild speculation, very quickly, to doubt "the kind of person Battler / Jessica / Hideyoshi / whomever, was"

Random Thought:

Is Bern the cruelest possible stand-in for us? The author has implied through multiple characters that Ange learning the truth won't be super great for her, but we don't really care. As readers we want all secrets revealed (all guts ripped out) and all knowledge given to her, despite how cruel it might be, because we think it would be interesting. We are definitely the ones who are happy to read a story once but then tear it apart the second time. We kind of want her to fulfill her goal, but only insofar as they line up with ours. We would find it unbelievably boring if we didn't learn the truth, and don't think her emotions/wishes matter more than ours because she is a written person and therefore on a different level of existence to us.

When witches get bored, they die. When readers get bored, they leave.
I think she's definitely analogous to us, yes. In that sense, it lines up very well with Featherine basically being Ryukishi's stand-in, and sometimes I wonder if Bern's growing bloodlust over the course of the plot is responsive to what I feel were Higurashi-fans disappointment with the different points of focus Umineko was offering.

Well, I also sort of felt like the IRL readers, us, were kinda sorta meant to be the spectators at the wedding in EP6, and filling the theater seats during EP7's TP, but that was just my impression.

Renall

2014-04-19, 08:27

Whether we doubt or accept Battler's characterization though, we still have no idea what it was that he actually did during the weekend, and not knowing that is a pretty large question mark.

I just think his ep4 portrayal of "sit around and wait for everybody to get killed, screw up what little contact he has with anyone, not know what's going on" is unsatisfying on a literary level, and we know that at some point he at least has to have discovered the means to escape explosive death. Did he find it? Was he shown it? If so, who showed him the way? These seem like important questions.

theforgot3n1

2014-04-19, 10:22

Has anyone read redaction of the golden witch? If you have, what is it? :O

jjblue1

2014-04-19, 10:31

Random Opinion:

I've been wondering if Yasu didn't plan a fake murder game but also set the bomb, so she had an all or nothing plan in place. It would match the epitaph.

Random Thought:

Is Bern the cruelest possible stand-in for us? The author has implied through multiple characters that Ange learning the truth won't be super great for her, but we don't really care. As readers we want all secrets revealed (all guts ripped out) and all knowledge given to her, despite how cruel it might be, because we think it would be interesting. We are definitely the ones who are happy to read a story once but then tear it apart the second time. We kind of want her to fulfill her goal, but only insofar as they line up with ours. We would find it unbelievably boring if we didn't learn the truth, and don't think her emotions/wishes matter more than ours because she is a written person and therefore on a different level of existence to us.

When witches get bored, they die. When readers get bored, they leave.

Well, as the bomb didn't explode at the first midnight but at the second, this means that at least Sayo let a night pass without setting the bomb... which would give her time to set the murder game.

I'm not sure what Ryukishi was planning here but for me it makes more sense if she planned fake murders and decided if no one were to solve the tricks she would use the bomb as it's a lot less risky and allow for resurrection should someone solve everything as well as for a possibility of happiness for her.
If someone stops her but she has already killed people she'll surely go to jail in the most unplesant way, her secrets exposed to the public... unless she manages to kill herself first (no idea if there's death sentence in Japan).

Our confession though seems to imply she planned to commit real murders and if she planned to mutilate corpses like in... let's say the first twilight of Ep 1 I'm not sure if she has the ability to use make up in such way or to replace corpses with dummies (even though Eva implied she thought they were wearing make up).

The difference between Bern and us is that to Bern PieceAnge is someone with real feelings and a will of her own and therefore existing somehow, even when she's just a piece. To us Ange is just a character in a tale with no real will nor feelings. She'll feel sad because Ryukishi will decide so and she'll do this because Ryukishi will decide so.

She doesn't even stand in as litterally representation of a real person. There's not, as far as we know, a real Ushiromiya Ange who lost her family and is pained by this situation. In short our will to know the truth can't really hurt anyone that can realistically feel pain... while Bern knows Ange will feel pain.

So yes, there are definitely parallels between us and Bern... or the witch hunters for the matter... but in the end we are aware that with our wish to knowledge we aren't hurting Ange because she's not real. Our empathy level with her is legittimally low due to her... not existing.

So I don't think it's a perfect comparison.

Were Umineko dealing with real facts... then the parallel would probably be perfect. But as it deals with what, in our world is only fantasy... we don't feel the need to hold back for another's sake because that 'another' simply put doesn't exist.

Thanks, I managed to find it after browsing a few different websites; the original page I used accidentally duplicated chapter 9 for both chapters 8 and 9. It was shorter than I was hoping for, but as someone who finds Kinzo really fascinating it was a great read just the same. Neat how much people can change across a lifetime; during their youths Kinzo and Genji were perfectly decent guys that weren't offensive or controversial in any way (heck, Kinzo came across as typical shounen hero material), a huge contrast to the shady old men we know during the series proper that have a checkered past and are the masterminds behind about six hundred different conspiracies. Kinzo probably has the most defined life story out of anyone in Umineko: the perfectly normal child and adolescent that loved his hometown, the despondent Family Head that found life to be gray and meaningless, the feared tyrant and ruthless businessman rejuvenated by his experiences in the war and with Beatrice, and the bitter, remorseful, scary old man that became progressively more reclusive and obsessed with black magic during his final years. He really is an interesting person.

I've the feeling that even in their past Kinzo and Genji weren't that nice. Probably they weren't as bad as they'll be as adults but as youths they were probably closer to Rudolf (who did money in illegal ways even prior to getting married but wasn't as bad as he'll become later) than to... let's say Battler or George.

Growing up in the wrong environments probably pushed everything downhill so that Kinzo wouldn't stop in front of nothing and Genji basically would let him do whatever he wanted.

How much sense does it make to continue doubting Battler's character when it's been so ... consistent?At least as consistent as everybody else's, save Kinzo.

Well, I guess the problem comes from the fact that Tohya himself seems to be doubting Battler. This leads people to suspect Tohya remembered something unpleasant about something Battler did.

... which means everything and nothing at the same time. If the first thing Tohya remembered about Battler is that... let's say he shot Kyrie he might have thought of Battler as a colld blooded murederer and not have known that Battler did it in... let's say self defence.

Of course there's so little development for Tohya we can hardly figure out what scared him in the first place so let's wait and see if the manga will develop things further.

Furthermore, if you'd argue that Tohya's memories of Battler were fragmentary at the time of his writing forgeries, then he would barely be able to write anybody because Battler is the only person he even knows kinda sorta well. All 17 other humans are virtually strangers to him.

Well, the characterizations of the people in the games are clearly written to be coherent with the 2 messages in the bottles (ehm... 3 since the manga seems to claim Ikuko owned a 3rd message) and what little was known about the Ushiromiya so maybe Tohya didn't even have to remember them.

Still pretty convinved that the relative accuracy of the characters portrayals is something we're just tupposed to assume. We arguably never get a verifiably objective representation of the human characters, but it does start to sound like rather wild speculation, very quickly, to doubt "the kind of person Battler / Jessica / Hideyoshi / whomever, was"

I think the problem with Battler is that differently from... let's say Jessica, his role in Prime is... suspicious. It makes easy to assume he might have been involved by Rudolf and Kyrie in "something".

There's to say though that Battler isn't the only one who gets suspected of not being as... candid as he looks. People speculated Jessica knew Kinzo was dead and that Shannon was Kanon... or that George was willing to murder who would get in his and Sayo's way. Rosa was suspected of having gone paranoid and having been the one to start shooting at the first sight of murder game.
And the same applies for more or less everyone.

The manga has ruled out Rosa, Krauss and Natsuhi from having the chance of doing something but I guess for other characters the situation is still a bit shady so they gets suspected.

It's pretty normal. After all it seems the culprits are Kyrie and Rudolf but through the games, although they weren't depicted as angels, they weren't even depicted as mass murderers. We've to wait till Ep 6 to be informed that yes, Kyrie was determined to kill her love rival to get the man she wanted. Going from being willing to murder one person but never getting the chance to mass murder is a rather big step...

Technically it would be more likely to suspect of Natsuhi who killed a servant and tried to kill a baby and is hiding Kinzo's death taking advantage of his money. Her body count is higher as well as the crimes she committed and the victims are less 'harmful' to her than Asumu was to Kyrie who was probably already pregnant with Ange. The Ep 8 manga though places Natsuhi as the first one killed so she's absolved from murdering people on the basis she died before she could do anything.

AuraTwilight

2014-04-19, 11:57

Has anyone read redaction of the golden witch? If you have, what is it? :O

It's a fanfiction written by Renall. Very good, I recommend it.

haguruma

2014-04-19, 15:13

I'm not sure what Ryukishi was planning here but for me it makes more sense if she planned fake murders and decided if no one were to solve the tricks she would use the bomb as it's a lot less risky and allow for resurrection should someone solve everything as well as for a possibility of happiness for her.
Well, what we know so far (curse you Japanese bookstores in Germany for not giving me my monthly dose of GanganJOKER) this is more or less excactly what she planned.
Our Confession is an embelishment since just as much as her stories it is written from Beato's perspective. Beato kills people, but Beato killing people is an illusion that was created by "that person". 'Sayo' likely never had the guts to kill anyone...nor did she really have the intent to kill anyone. What she wanted was being connected as souls, without those "cages of flesh" being in the way. Was that the plan of an insane person? A little...maybe way past sane, but mostly desperate and (as Renall already wonderfully said) it was the horrible people around her who pushed her into this existence as a non-entity with an imperfect body.

The EP7 and 8 manga say it like this:
Her roulette had 3 eyes. Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon. But they were also the bomb, the duel of love, and the fake murders. She gave her destiny up to fate so far that she put up three options: Being chosen by somebody, being liberated and connected to all, or at least have someone stop her own madness.

To us Ange is just a character in a tale with no real will nor feelings.
Well, to Bern's defense, it has been made quite clear that for her Ange is nothing more than a character either. She's a piece and her suffering doesn't matter to the witches any more than that of a fictional character.
Bern actually makes some interesting points during EP8, especially in the manga where she and Ange get a lot more narrative focus. She simply has a very different worldview compared to Battler. She kind of pities Battler that he was so easy to forget the eternal torture that he was put through, so much that he now in a way puts Ange through the same without even noticing it.

And in the end this Ange really is just fictional as it appears, because while the manga states that Ushiromiya Ange will definitely die in 1998 this does not have to say that the person behind that name dies. At least the VN so far implies that Kotobuki Yukari exists and is Ushiromiya Ange after she changed her identity.
So no matter how we look at it, yes, there might have been an Ange who jumped from the building after learning the truth, but there also might be another Ange.

Well, the characterizations of the people in the games are clearly written to be coherent with the 2 messages in the bottles (ehm... 3 since the manga seems to claim Ikuko owned a 3rd message) and what little was known about the Ushiromiya so maybe Tohya didn't even have to remember them.
Well, the manga makes it pretty clear that there is a lot known about the Ushiromiya's in 1998. They know about Natsuhi's diaries, about Rudolph's past, about Kinzo's explosives, basically everything we get in the forgeries is kinda backed by some kind of information as it seems and speculation actually sets in from these things.

Ber uses this in an interesting way again (have to check if it was in the VN, but I think it wasn't in such detail) when she and Featherine confront Ange about her role in Battler's game and basically accuse him of making his game TOO clean (so far he even removed the epitaph from his gameboard). If his portrayal of the family was true, then what about Beato's game?!
I think what we have to take from this is, the truth lies inbetween as always and they were neither one extreme nor the other...just human beings.

And isn't that actually what made Battler so angry with EP2 for example? That people were behaving like lunatics and he didn't understand why? Those were likely not the people that startetd popping up in Tohya's head and he was trying to refuse that. His way of changing around people actually already started with EP4, didn't it? The heroic sacrifices, Rosa and Maria being all sweet and loving?

After all it seems the culprits are Kyrie and Rudolf but through the games, although they weren't depicted as angels, they weren't even depicted as mass murderers.
Well, EP1 and 2 gave us very few about them, especially about Kyrie since likely Sayo did not know as much about her. They were a little bit the wild cards in Beato's game...
But there was always something unsettling about them.
EP3 had them going to the mansion under some pretext cooked up by Kyrie in order to put pressure on Hideyoshi, with them all ending up dead (with that weird addition of the text mentioning that Kyrie's wound was not immediately fatal).
EP4 had Kyrie being an accomplicee (since EP8 manga plainly spells out that "seeing Kanon and Shannon at the same time = being an accomplicee").
In the same Episode we also learn that her birthhome is a very high-rank yakuza-clan, which makes her all the more likely to be connected to violence.
Then we have her being depicted several times as the one who instigated Rudolph to work with his siblings in pressuring Krauss.
EP5 has her and Rudolph using Battler to harrass Natsuhi.

And EP8 gives us several more things, like her and Rudolph's business being connected to criminal organizations, them basically being involved in fraud and swindle since their student days...
If we put two and two together, Kyrie is actually the first person we should suspect....honestly, she and Rudolph are the only ones who are actual suspected criminals.

Natsuhi's only real kill was more or less an accident, being more manslaughter than murder, since she only pushed the servant in an impulse reaction.

Renall

2014-04-19, 17:42

If we put two and two together, Kyrie is actually the first person we should suspect....honestly, she and Rudolph are the only ones who are actual suspected criminals.
Being inclined to commit one crime does not automatically mean one is automatically inclined to commit any crime. Also last I checked all of the adults are committing crimes that put them in bad financial straits. Rudolf's is the only one related to direct potential criminal acts on his part, but everyone else has responded to their distress with criminality. Krauss has committed embezzlement and fraud (and I'm not even sure what else covering up Kinzo's death probably makes him guilty of). Eva and Rosa are willing participants in conspiracy to commit blackmail and Eva, if she suspects Kinzo is already dead, may be angling for a far more intense degree of blackmail. Plus there's that lady Natsuhi killed, even if it was an accident. And I'm sure all of these things make everyone equally inclined to shoot their family, or blow up an orphanage, or smuggle bananas without submitting them to customs inspections, because all crimes are the same thing.

I'm reminded of a thing I heard somewhere, can't remember where. Something about not forgetting a heart? Eh, it's probably not related to the situation at hand, nevermind.

Cao Ni Ma

2014-04-19, 17:53

I dont know, If natsuhi found herself being cross examined for the murder of the servant and the child she'd probably be founded guilty of murder rather than simple manslaughter.

Renall

2014-04-19, 18:06

Putting a lawyer hat on here, it actually depends. I'll use the Involuntary/Voluntary Manslaughter and Second/First Degree Murder standard here, but I'm not actually sure Japan does it this way.
Involuntary Manslaughter is essentially accidentally causing a death through recklessness or gross negligence. This is not what Natsuhi did, according to her. It's not the right charge.
Voluntary Manslaughter is basically intentional killing either by reasonable provocation or the commission of an act that wasn't intended to be murder but was still intentionally committed in the heat of the moment. I don't think this is what Natsuhi did either, because she wasn't provoked and while she was in a state of mental distress, I think she still wanted the baby to die. Also not the right charge, but it's something she might plead down to.
Second-Degree Murder is killing intentionally in a state of passion or when unreasonably provoked (that is, you shouldn't have been provoked by it). This could be what Natsuhi did. She suggests it was an impulse in the moment. She definitely meant for the baby to die (even if it's the servant she's charged for, the intent transfers to the servant as well). This is the most probable charge, but it could be argued...
First-Degree Murder is intentional killing with malice aforethought and, usually, some degree of premeditation. While Natsuhi didn't plot out bringing the baby somewhere that it could be pushed, she still admitted to wanting the baby gone before she actually acted. One could argue that this is an intent to kill that she developed prior to actually making the attempt, and as such, she committed first-degree murder.
I'm deriving that from this part:
If by taking that baby, and throwing it down onto the rocky beach far below me I could undo it all... I really did listen to that demon's temptation.
Then, for the smallest of moments, I thought of how wonderful it would be if I really could do that, and lent an ear to that temptation. At that time-
The servant holding the baby stepped on a large rock, twisted her ankle, and staggered... She leaned against the rough fence, and at that time, I thought I heard the fence creak loudly.
I told her to look out and tried to grab her shoulder.
No, I shouldn't be so vague... I'll repent. I'll confess.
...At that moment, I'm sure that as I told her to look out, with both hands, I reached for that servant's shoulder, and with a thud, pushed her away hard...
The rough fence snapped from the base, and the servant, along with the baby held in her arms, fell down towards the rocky beach below...
Notably, Natsuhi says she was thinking about killing the baby before the opportunity to do so appeared. When she was presented the opportunity to do it, she did it. That most certainly can be first-degree murder, although it would be much easier to prove second-degree under the circumstances. Especially if her confession isn't admissible for some reason. Then again, without the confession you don't have a case at all because you don't know there was a baby at all.

GuestSpeaker

2014-04-19, 18:52

Well, to Bern's defense, it has been made quite clear that for her Ange is nothing more than a character either. She's a piece and her suffering doesn't matter to the witches any more than that of a fictional character.

This is a point I was (poorly) trying to make. Ange to us is nothing but fiction, so everything about her is fake. But the author clearly INTENDS us to view her emotions as important. Similarly, Ange to Bern (even Prime Ange) is just on such a different level of existence to her that it is hard for her to empathise at all. This is an idea that you can infer significant support for in Ryu's work.

Think about Battler telling Beato in ep 3 to stop disrespecting her characters so much.

Think about how Jessica and George in Ep6 spoke about how it was "just a game" when they killed, but we were shown the emotions of the killed characters anyway

Even more-so think about Ange, and how at the same time as we were playing Bern's fun little murder mystery, Ange was experiencing the horrors of it first hand.

It is also somewhat supported in Higurashi, no spoilers, but anyone who read Saikoroshi-hen from Rei knows what I mean.

In my completely uninformed opinion, showing the in-world fictional characters' reactions to these things is supposed to allow us to draw a parallel between how the witches see the "real people", and then for us to go further and apply it to others in real life

haguruma

2014-04-19, 19:04

I'm reminded of a thing I heard somewhere, can't remember where. Something about not forgetting a heart? Eh, it's probably not related to the situation at hand, nevermind.
The minute I finished my post I knew it will provoke this reaction from you, Renall. Sorry that I still didn't change it, I think I'm growing way to accustomed to this :heh:

In my post I didn't want to imply that we or anybody SHOULD consider Kyrie to be the most likely culprit, it's just that circumstancial evidence and her background history don't exactly paint an innocent picture. If what we saw in EP4 is at least partially true then Kyrie grew up around people who have no qualms killing a minor in cold blood. This doesn't have to indicate anything, but it doesn't create an exactly trustworthy background either.

We should also consider that, while his embezzling was apparently proven, Krauss didn't exactly do it out of criminal intent but (at least concerning his characterization) out of naivity (or even stupidity) towards people who are trying to use him.
Furthermore, the plan to harrass Krauss' family-branch into admitting that Kinzo is dead is something that the message bottles brought up...and though it is likely that something like this happened, it doesn't necessarily have to be this black and white.

Natsuhi's culpability is a difficult thing though, I'd not want to have to be drawn into that court case. She did admit to considering the death of the baby, but I do wonder whether she ever actually thought of killing it. It's as much a catbox as Sayo's intent to kill...
Since she is a woman unable to voice her opinion out loud and needs a secret diary to express these, I'd say that emotional outbursts like her "pushing the servant" are a sign of psychological problems that need to be adressed. Well...the whole household needs a whole other household of counselors and psychiatrists probably...

But again we're still circling around certain questions:
Should one persecute a possible crime without regards for the bereaved families of suspects?
Should one just ignore an unsolved crime because less people suffer immediately by letting it rest?
Should one have a heart for people who committed murder or at least killed somebody?

jjblue1

2014-04-19, 19:07

Well, what we know so far (curse you Japanese bookstores in Germany for not giving me my monthly dose of GanganJOKER) this is more or less excactly what she planned.
Our Confession is an embelishment since just as much as her stories it is written from Beato's perspective. Beato kills people, but Beato killing people is an illusion that was created by "that person". 'Sayo' likely never had the guts to kill anyone...nor did she really have the intent to kill anyone. What she wanted was being connected as souls, without those "cages of flesh" being in the way. Was that the plan of an insane person? A little...maybe way past sane, but mostly desperate and (as Renall already wonderfully said) it was the horrible people around her who pushed her into this existence as a non-entity with an imperfect body.

The EP7 and 8 manga say it like this:
Her roulette had 3 eyes. Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon. But they were also the bomb, the duel of love, and the fake murders. She gave her destiny up to fate so far that she put up three options: Being chosen by somebody, being liberated and connected to all, or at least have someone stop her own madness.

The sad thing is that receiving the ring from George isn't enough to make her feel she was chosen by someone... as well as learning by George that Battler wasn't making fun of her as a child.

Well, to Bern's defense, it has been made quite clear that for her Ange is nothing more than a character either. She's a piece and her suffering doesn't matter to the witches any more than that of a fictional character.
Bern actually makes some interesting points during EP8, especially in the manga where she and Ange get a lot more narrative focus. She simply has a very different worldview compared to Battler. She kind of pities Battler that he was so easy to forget the eternal torture that he was put through, so much that he now in a way puts Ange through the same without even noticing it.

And in the end this Ange really is just fictional as it appears, because while the manga states that Ushiromiya Ange will definitely die in 1998 this does not have to say that the person behind that name dies. At least the VN so far implies that Kotobuki Yukari exists and is Ushiromiya Ange after she changed her identity.
So no matter how we look at it, yes, there might have been an Ange who jumped from the building after learning the truth, but there also might be another Ange.

Well, yes, for Bern Ange is just a piece but... it seems almost a... racistic way to put it. She interacts with Ange, she knows Ange does things on her own free will. This makes her a sentient piece, a human being, even if one on a lower plane. Battler can't completely control MetaAnge the same way Bern can't. Differently from Piece Ange Meta Ange 'exists'. So I've hard time accepting Bern's excuse she's just a piece to her. It seems more like she sees her as someone from a lower class, a peasant, a slave than a feelingless object. And her lack of empathy with Ange and Erika looks ugly. I don't get the same feeling for the lack of empathy Beato showed for the Pieces in her tales as they were nothing else but puppets moved by her. Sure, they cried and suffered but in a very fictional character way. Meta Battler instead is a different case as he can react to what Beato shows and tells to him so when she uses the stakes to stab him she can't wave it off as him feeling pain only if she's the one who writes him doing so.

And isn't that actually what made Battler so angry with EP2 for example? That people were behaving like lunatics and he didn't understand why? Those were likely not the people that startetd popping up in Tohya's head and he was trying to refuse that. His way of changing around people actually already started with EP4, didn't it? The heroic sacrifices, Rosa and Maria being all sweet and loving?

Interesting point though I'll argue Battler was sugar coating things in Ep 3 also where we see Krauss regretting the way he behaved with his siblings... when instead, if we're to believe to EP 7 Teaparty he wouldn't hesitate to bully them again not even for a moment and not even if he were to be in a desperate situation.

Well, EP1 and 2 gave us very few about them, especially about Kyrie since likely Sayo did not know as much about her. They were a little bit the wild cards in Beato's game...
But there was always something unsettling about them.
EP3 had them going to the mansion under some pretext cooked up by Kyrie in order to put pressure on Hideyoshi, with them all ending up dead (with that weird addition of the text mentioning that Kyrie's wound was not immediately fatal).
EP4 had Kyrie being an accomplice (since EP8 manga plainly spells out that "seeing Kanon and Shannon at the same time = being an accomplicee").
In the same Episode we also learn that her birthhome is a very high-rank yakuza-clan, which makes her all the more likely to be connected to violence.
Then we have her being depicted several times as the one who instigated Rudolph to work with his siblings in pressuring Krauss.
EP5 has her and Rudolph using Battler to harrass Natsuhi.

And EP8 gives us several more things, like her and Rudolph's business being connected to criminal organizations, them basically being involved in fraud and swindle since their student days...
If we put two and two together, Kyrie is actually the first person we should suspect....honestly, she and Rudolph are the only ones who are actual suspected criminals.

Natsuhi's only real kill was more or less an accident, being more manslaughter than murder, since she only pushed the servant in an impulse reaction.

Yes, Kyrie is suspicious but her dead count still amount to 0.

Actually all the Ushiromiya are clearly not good people. Natsuhi killed the servant and tried to kill the baby, getting on top of the list, Rosa abuses of Maria and neglects her, Kyrie considered committing murder and she's into dirty business, Krauss is hiding Kinzo's death and, with this trick, basically also stealing money from his own relatives, Rudolf is involved in dirty business and switched his sons (which I guess can count as some sort of kidnapping?), Eva and Hideyoshi are desperate enough to be willing to resort to blackmail to get Krauss to hand them some money.

Each of them is someone who's defiling/willing to defile law but for each of them the jump they've to do from what they've done to mass murder is of different lenght. Not to say that a person who, so far had behaved with a saint, can't lost it and decide to kill everyone, there's plenty of people who seemed so nice and then... snapped. Only, if we've to judge people solely from what was shown in the games prior to Ep 7 Teaparty, Rudolf and Kyrie weren't killer.
We can't wave Ep 7 Teaparty as solely Bern trolling Ange and Lion as we know it contained a good part if not all the truth so this makes possible her mystery game in Ep 8 contained some truth as well.

Ergo it's possible to suspect about Battler... even if personally I think the chances he purposely murdered someone in Prime are extremely low as not even Eva seems to blame him of something.

LOL, I like the Battler culprit theory but honestly I don't think it's the right solution to Prime.

Notably, Natsuhi says she was thinking about killing the baby before the opportunity to do so appeared. When she was presented the opportunity to do it, she did it. That most certainly can be first-degree murder, although it would be much easier to prove second-degree under the circumstances. Especially if her confession isn't admissible for some reason. Then again, without the confession you don't have a case at all because you don't know there was a baby at all.

Each time I think at Natsuhi's murder I'm reminded of Mouryou no Hako and at how it explained a similar murder (a girl pushing another under the train) by describing it as the girl being possessed by a toorimono, a demon who brings misfortune to houses or people he passes by... which was a poetic way to basically describe how she was suddently possesed by a murdering impulse... more than claiming that she was really possessed by a demon... or so it looked like in the Mouryou no Hako version I saw.

It's interesting because Natsuhi then tries to push the blame on Beatrice... their resident demon... pardon, witch...

haguruma

2014-04-19, 20:27

Differently from Piece Ange Meta Ange 'exists'.
Does she? So is Meta-Ange more real than the Piece Ange who becomes Kotobuki Yukari or the Piece-Ange who fell from the roof of that building? Wouldn't this also make, let's say, Bernkastel more real than Furude Rika?

Interesting point though I'll argue Battler was sugar coating things in Ep 3 also
But, if we were to believe that (going by Ange saying that she hears the "voice of that old hag, Eva" at the start of the play) the EP7 teaparty is based on Eva's impression of her siblings...isn't it equally unrealistically subjective? She was always described as hating Krauss' guts so it wouldn't be surprising if she only looked out for the worst in him and didn't even consider him having a well-meaning approach.
Yes, Battler can be said to "sugar-coat" things, but the other fictions are equally guilty of painting characters unrealistically ugly. Who are we "as outsiders" to say which of these was their true being? Why should Battler's image be wrong only because more people believe in their ugly sides?

Each of them is someone who's defiling/willing to defile law but for each of them the jump they've to do from what they've done to mass murder is of different lenght.
The question is, was there really one person who killed everybody? Yes, mystery-rules demand that, but is this a mystery?

Btw. I read up on true crime fiction because I find it fascinating how that has not entered discussion here so far. How are for example theories, books and movies about the Zodiac murders any different than the Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case?

Renall

2014-04-19, 21:07

One might also not expect Eva's feelings to also be tied up in the possibility that somebody had nearly killed her (whether accidentally, deliberately, or in panicked self-defense), if the ep7 TP is close to her impression of what she believes happened. It would be kind of natural to assume a reason behind an event like that, even where one might not exist. I mean, people get shot as a result of stupid people handing firearms without full attention when they suddenly go off quite often in real life.

Her reconstruction would have to be viewed in that light, noting especially the distinct possibility that either some of her details are wrong (regarding things she did not actually observe) or that her interpretation is wrong (she saw things or heard things but they did not necessarily mean what she expected them to mean). There's also a notable absence in all these instances of what the hell Battler was up to. Did Eva think he died too? What did she expect he was doing? The huge Battler-shaped hole in literally everything purporting to be information about Prime is extremely odd. We're presented with the puzzle piece of a living Battler but no hole for it to fit into, but also enough of the puzzle unassembled that we can't say it doesn't fit either.
Btw. I read up on true crime fiction because I find it fascinating how that has not entered discussion here so far. How are for example theories, books and movies about the Zodiac murders any different than the Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case?
As a phenomenon? Not that different at all. As a discrete crime? Very different, mostly due to the particular traits the crime shows: A closed-off environment, a swirling mass of suspects and motives, and a sudden and catastrophic ending that leaves everything in mystery. That is, Rokkenjima takes the form of a murder mystery story.

Zodiac, and many serial killers, sort of follow the form of a thriller (or true crime, but true crime is basically just a thriller that's true and occasionally doesn't end with a proper literary climax). Zodiac didn't do all his killings in a specific place and time, but instead had a certain method and mythos. Much like how Jack the Ripper's legend is based around his victim selection and the state he left them in, you're looking at a non-discrete environment for investigation. You can't say "there are 20 people in the building and one of them must be Jack the Ripper!" in the same sense you'd probably be able to reasonably say Rokkenjima, if it was a serial murder, was probably committed by one of the people present on the island that day. You discover the identity of Jack the Ripper by comparing method and presentation and try to figure out things like opportunity and identity. Or don't, of course, since some serial killers are never identified.

jjblue1

2014-04-19, 21:41

Does she? So is Meta-Ange more real than the Piece Ange who becomes Kotobuki Yukari or the Piece-Ange who fell from the roof of that building? Wouldn't this also make, let's say, Bernkastel more real than Furude Rika?

I don't think it's a point of 'who's more real'. Meta Ange is real in the Meta layer. And Bern is abusing of Ange in the meta layer. She's deliberately causing pain to someone she knows can feel it because Ange has free will. Bern doesn't care if Ange suffers but know she's suffering, that she has feelings.
If however Bern were to Furude Rika merely a character in a book or something like that, this would strip Bern of being REAL in Rika's world same as it does in ours. Someone is writing Bern's actions and feelings. While we can sympathize with her or hate her we don't feel for her the same obligations we feel for a living being... and while we can judge her evil, in the end, we know she's as such because she was written like that.
Bern isn't real in our world.
In the same way we'll never know if we're real or we're characters of a tale. But from my perspective you and I are real and if I'm... let's say... a jerk to you and call you names it'll be out of my free will and with the knowledge I'll hurt you. I'm guilty of hurting your feelings and I should worry about it... but I won't feel guilty about hurting Bern's feelings if I call her names. In my layer she doesn't exist.

But, if we were to believe that (going by Ange saying that she hears the "voice of that old hag, Eva" at the start of the play) the EP7 teaparty is based on Eva's impression of her siblings...isn't it equally unrealistically subjective? She was always described as hating Krauss' guts so it wouldn't be surprising if she only looked out for the worst in him and didn't even consider him having a well-meaning approach.
Yes, Battler can be said to "sugar-coat" things, but the other fictions are equally guilty of painting characters unrealistically ugly. Who are we "as outsiders" to say which of these was their true being? Why should Battler's image be wrong only because more people believe in their ugly sides?

Although it might be subjective, the facts should be more or less true. Rosa maybe didn't sound spiteful and a little crazy when she wanted Eva and Hideyoshi to go to the police but likely that's what asked them to do. This means an argument surely arise over splitting the gold which means that when Eva claimed they should split it equally instead that handling the lion's share to Krauss he didn't say okay, you're right, let's split equally, but tried to blackmail his siblings into submitting to him by claiming he was the only one who could convert the gold so either they obeyed him or they wouldn't have a cent.

Note also that Krauss was already trying to take complete control of Kinzo's fortune by claiming Kinzo wasn't dead yet and wasn't willing to help his siblings to deal with their problems.

I'm willing to concede that likely Krauss felt guilty toward how he acted in regards to his siblings... but he did it in a style similar to Rosa... who feels guilty about beating and neglecting Maria but this doesn't stop her from doing it... or like Kinzo... who knew he shouldn't have taken advantage of Kuwadorian Beatrice but this didn't stop him... or Rudolf... who feels guilty for switching the babies... but at best he told Kyrie and Battler the truth only after 18 years... if he managed/planned to tell it.

In short I'm not trying to paint them as remorseless mosters... but I think they were pretty ugly people at the moment or toward each others or both.

If they weren't they would have calmly sat on a table and supported each other right from when Kinzo died.

The question is, was there really one person who killed everybody? Yes, mystery-rules demand that, but is this a mystery?

Btw. I read up on true crime fiction because I find it fascinating how that has not entered discussion here so far. How are for example theories, books and movies about the Zodiac murders any different than the Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case?

Well, if the tea party is close to the truth we know there wasn't as we can count 4 murderers. Krauss and Natsuhi were killed by Eva and Hideyoshi, George by Rudolf, Kyrie by Eva and everyone else by Kyrie and Rudolf.

If your question is: did Kyrie and Rudolf really be the culprits of the murders Eva didn't witness... well, unless Battler's point of view will be revealed and will tell us something we don't know, we'll never know. For all we know it can be the others were just pretending to be dead and Kyrie and Rudolf, who were upside down after what had happened in the golden room, finding everyone else dead, ended up saying something Eva misinterpreted as them being the culprits... and Eva didn't check the curpses and blasted everyone with the bomb.

Or Battler, Jessica and George could have started a love duel over Yasu after figuring that Kanon and Shannon were the same person and that George had stolen Shannon to Battler and Jessica and George died.

Or Genji went mad and killed everyone. Or Kyrie's Yakuza clan best assassin secretly reached the island and killed everyone aiming to make Ange the sole heir so that the Sumadera could take control of her but then incidentally ate a slice of Gohda's almond cake without realizing it contained almonds to which he was allergic and died. We'll never know.

Since the manga revealed some stuffs that weren't really supported by hints... it can be that part of the truth of Rokkenjima is impossible to figure out but just to guess if you're lucky. But we can know only if the manga will give us more to work with. Otherwise I think the implication is that Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits of the murders we didn' see.

Uberzaki

2014-04-20, 21:14

[...]

EPISODE 3:
Piece-Battler (by Ikuko??):
He's still out of the loop, but the interesting thing is that he is not actively trying to do anything like he did in EP1 and 2. He's a little bit more scared by the whole situation but there is also clearly no witch illusion this time around (which draws an interesting parallel to EP5). He's also a lot readier to accuse people and act irrationally.
This is also the only time that 07151129 plays an active part in the island plot and Battler is shown to draw no immediate connection to it.

[...]

You mentioning it as the only time the number figures into the island plot made me realise that it is all too easy to subconsciously regard Battler’s accounts as the only events that actually happen, I am certainly guilty of it here. Forgetting the precise significance of the numbers themselves for a moment, is this the only time a string of numbers was appended to a magic circle (or perhaps on a different object)? We could have situations where other character groups discover a seemingly (different?) random string of numbers during the rediscovery of another murder scene. For example, there are a lot of blanks to fill in in EP4, or when George’s group try to retake Natsuhi’s brooch in EP2. Eva seemingly uses her receipt to record interesting notes, but only survives long enough in EP3 to actually utilise it during such events.

And then if the numbers were different…? ooh boy, my mind would go into overdrive.

GuestSpeaker

2014-04-21, 08:18

Firstly I was thinking that Ryu sure loves his "catch me to make me stop killing" killers, and Umineko may have actually grown out of his love for a certain Higurashi story...

Secondly, I am starting to wonder how much George knew.
He makes a lot of claims about their parents just doing what needs to be done to support the family, about how Battler should forgive them and how he himself has matured. Also, at one point Eva tries to bring him to the "real conference" doesn't she? And Hideoyoshi waves it off and says he should go have fun cousin time (not with you Yasu). But that means she was going to have him be there when they blackmailed Krauss...

Heck, maybe everyone but Battler and Ghoda knew that Kinzo was dead.

Finally, In my opinion we need to dispel with the "who could plan a mass murder" argument. We don't really know how many people were dead when the bomb went off, only that Eva thought they were all dead. What we have basically been told though, is that the killing probably started accidentally. At the very least, we can be confident that whoever killed the people probably started only after things went crazy.

What I am trying to say is that we shouldn't be looking for who would plan a mass murder, because Yasu is so far the only one who has been shown to be capable of it with any consistency. A mass murder may have happened, but it was not because some genius string puller (Kyrie) laid it all out, it is because something went seriously wrong, and some broken and messed up people had things get very out of hand. George easily could have attacked someone in anger, especially if he thought his parents were both dead.

jjblue1

2014-04-21, 12:44

Help?

While rereading Umineko I've noticed that Kanon goes to take something to cut the chain on Eva's room in the storehouse... which was supposely where the 6 corpses of the first twilight had been found and that had been closed by a new locked of whcih only Natsuhi should have the key. In short he could enter in the storehouse only with magic.

We know that the chain wasn't really set but Kanon has a wire cutter with himself when Natsuhi joins the party so that can't be a lie.

Is this a hint that Kanon had prepared the wire cutter in advance in some other place or we should assume that the main house have another storehouse? The manga doesn't specify where he get the wire cutter but it seems more like a huge closet inside the house...

Is there any difference in the PS3?

Renall

2014-04-21, 15:52

I thought the wire cutters were kept in the boiler room, not the storage shed. In fact I thought Battler had to retrieve something from somewhere else in ep4 to open the storage shed.

jjblue1

2014-04-21, 16:58

I thought the wire cutters were kept in the boiler room, not the storage shed. In fact I thought Battler had to retrieve something from somewhere else in ep4 to open the storage shed.

Well, here it says storehouse... that's why I'm confused. Shouldn't that be closed?

Kumasawa accompanied Kanon, and they went to the storehouse. From amongst the tools packed in toolboxes and hanging on the walls, Kanon looked for a tool that could be used to cut the chain.
"What are you looking for...? ...I will help......"
"......We're cutting a door chain. ...Where was that large wire cutter..."
"A door chain...? Wh, why would you do something like that...?"
"............The chain to Eva-sama and Hideyoshi-sama's room. ...Even though they should be inside, when we called to them, they didn't answer."
It took Kumasawa some time to figure out how cutting the chain and Eva and Hideyoshi not answering were connected, but she did realize that this was an urgent situation.
"This will probably..."
Kanon took down a very large wire cutter that had been hanging on the wall.
It was called a cutter, but maybe it would be easier to understand if we said it was shaped like a large pair of pliers.

I guess they couldn't go to the boiler room ar they would have discovered Kinzo's body sooner than planned... wasn't he in the boiler room?

Of course it can also be they went in the boiler room to burn Kinzo and since they were at it took the wire cutter and then the narration said they went to the storehouse instead so that we won't immediately suspect they burned Kinzo... and the fact it says storehouse it's supposed to be a hint to understand that the scene played out differently.

Renall

2014-04-21, 18:07

jjblue1

2014-04-21, 19:33

That story was also a lie in the first place, so where the cutters were isn't terribly relevant. Plus they could just be wherever the plot decides they need to be, honestly. In ep1 they were in there, doesn't mean they have to be in every story.

Well, my problem is that they can't be in the storehouse with the corpses as Kanon can't access to that place so I was wondering if there's another storehouse or I should take it as a hint that's a fantasy story (now I know that's a fantasy story but at my first reading I didn't). Back in Ep 1 we didn't know many things but if we were to stop and think at how Kanon couldn't go in the storehouse we would have realized immediately that his story was a lie and suspected about him.

It becomes very obvious, really. That's why it seems so weird to have such an obvious hint.

Kealym

2014-04-22, 03:20

Whether we doubt or accept Battler's characterization though, we still have no idea what it was that he actually did during the weekend, and not knowing that is a pretty large question mark.
Very true, just that that's also the case for everybody else, as well.

I just think his ep4 portrayal of "sit around and wait for everybody to get killed, screw up what little contact he has with anyone, not know what's going on" is unsatisfying on a literary level, and we know that at some point he at least has to have discovered the means to escape explosive death. Did he find it? Was he shown it? If so, who showed him the way? These seem like important questions.
Well ... he doesn't escape explosive death in EP4 ; anyone that might've guided or directed him to Kuwadorian, which he doesn't even know about, is dead.

If EP4 is unsatisfying for you, isn't that more to do with Alliance's basic structure than Battler's specific set of actions? It's barely set up as a mystery / puzzle at all, and even most of Will's solutions are kinda just "Yup, those people sure were murdered, alright. Definitely murdered, they were."

Interesting point though I'll argue Battler was sugar coating things in Ep 3 also where we see Krauss regretting the way he behaved with his siblings... when instead, if we're to believe to EP 7 Teaparty he wouldn't hesitate to bully them again not even for a moment and not even if he were to be in a desperate situation.
That's a bit unfair of a comparison, no?
In EP3, Krauss isn't an accomplice, and his siblings are being murdered at an alarming rate. In EP7 TP, his siblings are alive and well, and they're bickering over a large (LARGE) amount of money. Are these things really more at odds with one another than the fact that Battler is very rude and thinks poorly of his father, but is still upset when he's been killed? Dang, people can be multiufaceted, when the moment's right. :heh:

Ergo it's possible to suspect about Battler... even if personally I think the chances he purposely murdered someone in Prime are extremely low as not even Eva seems to blame him of something.

LOL, I like the Battler culprit theory but honestly I don't think it's the right solution to Prime.
I agree that it's possible to suspect Battler, of course, but since it's so unsupported by the text at large, it mostly enters Black Battler territory, where he goes around molesting and killing people for ... ... the love of molesting and murdering people, y'know?

With the adult relatives, we already know that they're in desperate financial straits, are willing to do bad things for their own reasons, and for the most part aren't very attached to each other, emotionally. We already know Krauss is willing to break the law, we already know Kyrolf is willing to basically steal if they can get away with it, we already know Evayoshi is willing to blackmail their own relatives.

With the kids, though, they're really all portrayed as being better than all of that. George, Battler, and Jessica are basically just some really nice, well adjusted kids who more or less can get along with all their relatives, and don't hold the family headship with much regard. Eva might kill someone to be the family Head. Jessica would probs pay someone to take her place as the next one.

Yes, Battler can be said to "sugar-coat" things, but the other fictions are equally guilty of painting characters unrealistically ugly. Who are we "as outsiders" to say which of these was their true being? Why should Battler's image be wrong only because more people believe in their ugly sides?
Thing is, only Battler's EP8 game presented such an extreme. All the games before, we saw the relatives being kind but also occasionally cruel or petty. Desperate with the occasional streak of old fashioned honor. Battler's game is all rainbows and sunshine, all the time, and the plot has at numerous points made a whole plot out of how that's nice sometimes, but is basically a ploy to ignore reality when facing reality is uncomfortable.

It's sorta like ... even if someone had a good year, if they told you they never felt a single negative emotion, or had a single hard time for 24 hours a day, 365 straight days, you'd have a hard time believing it, right? Even if you'd agree they had a great year, it feels disingenuous to say that greatness was uninterrupted for so long. Even Battler admits his game is moreso for the sake of making Ange feel better than anything more than a superficial resemblance to reality, so...

Btw. I read up on true crime fiction because I find it fascinating how that has not entered discussion here so far. How are for example theories, books and movies about the Zodiac murders any different than the Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case?
To add a little to what Renall said, I won't pretend to know much about it, but I assume there's a certain period, before which it'd be considered really rude to play around with a true crime narrative. In Prime, it seems that never happened, and people were willing to discuss it like a fun hobby even though at least Eva, Ange, Sabakichi and Masayuki, and Erika's parents were still alive and just trying to get on with their lives.

I always felt crimes had to sorta fade away to being historical footnotes before people talk about them really casually, outside of, say, documentary's or something.

I watched AHS : Coven not too long ago and there was a character from the 1800s who was a serial killer, and I was surprised she was in fact a real person (well, based on one, at least), but I guess it's more "okay" to make a plot out of it since anyone related to those events has long, long since passed. In Prime, I imagive Rokkenjima would eventually become regarded the same way?

Well, my problem is that they can't be in the storehouse with the corpses as Kanon can't access to that place so I was wondering if there's another storehouse or I should take it as a hint that's a fantasy story (now I know that's a fantasy story but at my first reading I didn't).
I think it's probably ... insignificant.

There's no mention of him stepping outside into the rain, or of the corpses, and the VN just says he grabbed the pliers and went "back up the stairs", so, with how large the mansion is sometimes implied to be, it's more likely than not that there's probably an extra room with some tools in it, moreso for the upkeep of the house than the upkeep of the garden (which the outside shed is for).

Of course, it is a fantasy scene, so ... I always thought the clue was the "sudden" appearance of the magic circle, given the unreasonably short time it's supposed to have been drawn in.

haguruma

2014-04-22, 06:06

It becomes very obvious, really. That's why it seems so weird to have such an obvious hint.
Well, that's kinda the method of a mystery novel: Having you go back and slap yourself silly over how in your face many of the things actually were. EP1 is actually really, really simple once you think about it. It is actually one of the simplest Episodes, but, since we didn't know yet what we were looking for, many elements escaped us.
She could have cut the chain the moment she murdered Eva and Hideyoshi (in that particular narrative) and nobody would be any wiser.

Battler's game is all rainbows and sunshine, all the time, and the plot has at numerous points made a whole plot out of how that's nice sometimes, but is basically a ploy to ignore reality when facing reality is uncomfortable.
Well, it is sorta meant to act as an opposite to Bern's rethoric about the murders and in that sense is of course really "squeaky clean" as Bern puts it. The funny thing is that this is highlighted by her under the terms of "yes, but it's a GM's job to show a one-sided account and the player's job to uncover the truth behind that"...so she already admits that she herself is doing the very same thing.

Bern's game and rethoric is equally guilty of "making it easy" since she paints all the relatives as horrible people who Ange doesn't have to feel guilty about judging. It's both kinda, sorta escapism.

Even Battler admits his game is moreso for the sake of making Ange feel better than anything more than a superficial resemblance to reality, so...
Well, he actually says that it is for her to remember their hearts and souls, the "them that she didn't know or forgot about". I don't think that Battler was effectively lying about them - Bern also mentions how he removed the epitaph in order to remove the "igniting spark that sets off the tragedy" - he is simple showing an amlgamation of everything that got left out of public opinion post-1986.

As a phenomenon? Not that different at all. As a discrete crime?
Well, I meant it less on a structural level of the crime but more on a structural level of the fictionalization and mediafication of the crime. For a closer resemblance to Rokkenjima you could take a very famous German case, that of the Hinterkaifeck murders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinterkaifeck), but I prefered the Zodiac as an example because of the vicinity of crime and mediafication of the events.
Hinterkaifeckt actually has quite the resemblence to Rokkenjima, with rumors of incest, a terrible patriarch, a child said to be the result of incest, the case still being unsolved, legends of ghosts haunting the property etc.
But, since in 1920s Germany the amount of genre-media was already shrinking due to the financial crisis and later on got completely pulled from the market due to the political climate, it took until the 70s before there was actual media on the case (not only newspaper rumors and folktales).

To add a little to what Renall said, I won't pretend to know much about it, but I assume there's a certain period, before which it'd be considered really rude to play around with a true crime narrative.
On the contrary, the first movie on the Zodiac killer, actually titled The Zodiac Killer, was released in 1971...while the case was still very much in the process. There is not much that actually holds back such processes, especially TV movies, books and pop-magazines are really quick to report on these things.

I watched AHS : Coven not too long ago
AHS is pretty fun, isn't it?
This reminds me, Lana Winters from AHS: Asylum is pretty much how I imagined Ikuko to be.

jjblue1

2014-04-22, 07:55

That's a bit unfair of a comparison, no?
In EP3, Krauss isn't an accomplice, and his siblings are being murdered at an alarming rate. In EP7 TP, his siblings are alive and well, and they're bickering over a large (LARGE) amount of money. Are these things really more at odds with one another than the fact that Battler is very rude and thinks poorly of his father, but is still upset when he's been killed? Dang, people can be multiufaceted, when the moment's right. :heh:

Are we sure he isn't an accomplice? He and Natsuhi were lead out of the house. It might be they left on purpose.
Also in Ep 7 he basically started the bickering claiming he wanted a bigger share then the others and his title as head acknowledged despite having kept hidden Kinzo's death and not having really helped solving the epitaph. And when his siblings refused he blackmailed them saying he was the only one who could convert the gold so either they were to bow to him or wouldn't get nothing. This is pure greed at his worst because even with much, much less than an equal share to the one of his siblings he could have fixed his problems. With an equal share he still would have saved a lot. But no, he has to impose on them.

I'm not discussing the fact that people can be multifaced but the difference is that Battler is presented as a fundamentally good person who even cry by seeing George lose his parents. Krauss is more like Rosa. She's very sorry she beat her daughter and neglect her but... can't stop. And Krauss is very sorry he's a jerk to his siblings but... can't stop.

I agree that it's possible to suspect Battler, of course, but since it's so unsupported by the text at large, it mostly enters Black Battler territory, where he goes around molesting and killing people for ... ... the love of molesting and murdering people, y'know?

With the adult relatives, we already know that they're in desperate financial straits, are willing to do bad things for their own reasons, and for the most part aren't very attached to each other, emotionally. We already know Krauss is willing to break the law, we already know Kyrolf is willing to basically steal if they can get away with it, we already know Evayoshi is willing to blackmail their own relatives.

With the kids, though, they're really all portrayed as being better than all of that. George, Battler, and Jessica are basically just some really nice, well adjusted kids who more or less can get along with all their relatives, and don't hold the family headship with much regard. Eva might kill someone to be the family Head. Jessica would probs pay someone to take her place as the next one.

While personally I think that it's unlikely the kids would kill for the heck of it they declare to be more or less ready to do so if someone were to threaten/kill their loved ones. Jessica in particular is prone to jump on people first and think after. I don't know how much good Jessica is with her punches but George knows fighting arts and Battler is pretty strong and is hinted he got into fights with others.

In Ep 3 Jessica is blinded by mistake because she jumped on Eva thinking she was the culprit. In Ep 4 Jessica and George kill each other by mistake while thinking to fight the culprit. While Ep 6 seems to paint them as killers, it can be a metaphor to say that they would fight to protect those they love.

So if something happened while the adults were in the gold room (for example the servants faking being dead) or after Kyrie and Rudolf left it (for example they tell the cousins an incident took place and they don't believe them) the cousins could have gotten into an argument among themselves or with them and this might have lead to an increasing in the dead count.

Of course it can also be that Rudolf and Kyrie get out and shoot everyone as Ep 7 hinted. I'm not sure we'll even know what had happened because the only one who might know (but also might not) is Battler/Tohya but he claims he doesn't remember things well... and anyway if things went like in the TEaparty he saw nothing. For him everyone was free to go around and shoot people.

Thing is, only Battler's EP8 game presented such an extreme. All the games before, we saw the relatives being kind but also occasionally cruel or petty. Desperate with the occasional streak of old fashioned honor. Battler's game is all rainbows and sunshine, all the time, and the plot has at numerous points made a whole plot out of how that's nice sometimes, but is basically a ploy to ignore reality when facing reality is uncomfortable.

In a way Battler's game fits how he wanted to think at people. Right in Ep 1 Battler reasons things, with Kyrie, with Eva, with himself and acknowledges there's not a 19 person. However when he sees Eva and Natsuhi arguing on how Natsuhi could be the culprit he gets so impressed by it he refuses the possibility the culprit is one of the 18 and start to wonder if it's possible that the number of the people is 18,5 somehow. as he knows this is absurd he slowly ends up refusing the idea that one of the 18 is the culprit and tries his best to prove there's a 19 person.

Battler insisted into presenting over and over all the people there as nice ones and defending them all. He doesn't search a culprit, he search a way to absolve the 18. Ep 8 is, I guess, his way. In Ep 8 everyone is the nice person Battler saw him or her to be. Sure they have some flaws (Rudolf still switched the baby, Eva and Krauss still argue, Natsuhi still killed the servant, Rosa is still not a good mother) but in Ep 8 they all want to overcome the flaws they probably acknowleged in their heart but never fought actively. Kinzo makes peace with his kids, Eva resolves her conflict with Krauss, Rudolf tells the truth and Kyrie forgives him, Rosa gets along with her daughter.
Battler don't view them as bad people but as good people with various flaws who needed a chance to set things right and fix things among them so he basically removes all the pressure they could have from lack of money and hiding a corpse and place them together in a nice setting.
In a way it's a picture filled with love and trust in his relatives and it could be that things weren't so bad before everyone ended up needing money. Maybe that's how he remembers them when he visited them at 12 or younger.

It's not that they don't have negative emotions ever, it's that they admit they HAD them but now they want to overcome them because there's no reason to have them.

Ange simply couldn't picture them wanting to make peace but for Battler, who decided after 6 years to try and make peace with his father and that Ange remembers playing with Rudolf and getting along with Kyrie, it should have been easier to think if given the chance they would realize their mistakes and make up.

The real obvious lie is that actually they were under a lot of stress generated by money problems, Kinzo's actions, Krauss' fraud and likely didn't feel like making up at all. They were in the middle of a desperate argument and so they ended up behaving at their worst. Battler removes the argument and so they behave at their best. His game is not a complete absurdity... it's more like a possibility lost, like Natsuhi accepting to raise Lion and becoming a good mother for him.

Differently from Bern we can picture many settings in which she would have accepted to do so, starting from Kinzo acting nicely to her already having a child... or simply missing the chance to toss Lion off a cliff and slowly growing fond of him.

They aren't absurd possibilities... they're just possibilities that won't take place because in the past things went different.

Well, that's kinda the method of a mystery novel: Having you go back and slap yourself silly over how in your face many of the things actually were. EP1 is actually really, really simple once you think about it. It is actually one of the simplest Episodes, but, since we didn't know yet what we were looking for, many elements escaped us.
She could have cut the chain the moment she murdered Eva and Hideyoshi (in that particular narrative) and nobody would be any wiser.

LOL, if that was a clue left on purpose this means as soon as I'm going to re-read Ep 2 I'm going to search for another obvious one. I love this sort of things!

Renall

2014-04-22, 08:44

On the contrary, the first movie on the Zodiac killer, actually titled The Zodiac Killer, was released in 1971...while the case was still very much in the process. There is not much that actually holds back such processes, especially TV movies, books and pop-magazines are really quick to report on these things.
The thing about Zodiac is that it's similar to Rokkenjima inasmuch as there was some kind of metafiction created and presented for media and public consumption which raised the profile of the case. In the latter case it was (apparently) accidental, with the message bottle stories creating the perception that Rokkenjima played host to a classical murder mystery (and that's probably also where people took the form of it from in-universe when making their assumptions). In the case of Zodiac, the killer actually sent encoded letters to the police and, more importantly, the press.

A serial killer who doesn't announce themselves builds up momentum more slowly, particularly if there isn't some mystique to the case. Zodiac very much intentionally wanted that mystique to build quickly, hence the letters. The phenomenon probably took off in particular because he both taunted police and didn't get caught right away (or ever, really). Compare this with Ted Bundy, who was trying not to get caught and whose mystique probably never would have peaked if he hadn't been revealed to be a charming and handsome man who didn't seem the type to commit dozens of murders.

A more recent example of a quick buildup of public interest would be the D.C. Sniper case. The mystique of the killings there came from the audacity of them, that someone was shooting at people with a high-powered rifle in broad daylight. It began to die down once they identified and caught the shooters because they hadn't done much to either fan the flames while still doing the killings (as Zodiac did) and didn't turn out to be someone surprising or unexpected (as Bundy was).

Rokkenjima has seemingly-unintentional parallels with the Zodiac case in the sense of the phenomenon and meta-fiction surrounding it, so I think it's an apt comparison on that level. An unsolved mystery with a bunch of unexpected elements (in this case, literal "message in a bottle confessions" that don't confess to anything) would probably trigger the public's imaginations quickly and it would be a constantly-revisited case for years and years thereafter. They'd almost certainly make movies about it, at least at some point. By 2000 or so I doubt anyone would even consider it to be rude to speculate on it and I'm honestly not even that surprised that it blew up in the late 80s either. The only unrealistic thing the story suggests about the Rokkenjima enthusiasts is that they'd ever stop.

jjblue1

2014-04-22, 09:17

Guys, let's enjoy the last spoiler of Ep 8 Confession of the golden witch Part 3 (http://rikkuchou.tumblr.com/post/83510849943).
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
I'll kill to get my hands on the last chapters of Ep 8!

GoldenLand

2014-04-22, 09:30

That's a gorgeous piece of art. What a great expression!

I can only imagine what sort of interesting new info we'll be getting when spoilers for the chapter's content come out.

jjblue1

2014-04-22, 10:31

That's a gorgeous piece of art. What a great expression!

I can only imagine what sort of interesting new info we'll be getting when spoilers for the chapter's content come out.

Well, since it's still 'confession' there's not much to say unless Sayo survived the massacre long enough to write down what happened during those 2 days before the island went KABOOM!

In this case we won't need Tohya/Battler to tell us the truth and if Ikuko found the bottle prior to finding him it might explain why she decided he wasn't dangerous but that also needed to be kept hidden. Sorta.

I still think Ange deserved to have what remained of her brother back but maybe in Yasu's tale she wrote Eva thought him to be the culprit/an accomplice to the culprits and if he were to show up she would have had him arrested or killed?

GreyZone

2014-04-22, 11:42

Well, since it's still 'confession' there's not much to say unless Sayo survived the massacre long enough to write down what happened during those 2 days before the island went KABOOM!

In this case we won't need Tohya/Battler to tell us the truth and if Ikuko found the bottle prior to finding him it might explain why she decided he wasn't dangerous but that also needed to be kept hidden. Sorta.

I still think Ange deserved to have what remained of her brother back but maybe in Yasu's tale she wrote Eva thought him to be the culprit/an accomplice to the culprits and if he were to show up she would have had him arrested or killed?

Would it be too far fetched to claim that Ikuko "finding" the "confession" was a fantasy scene?

jjblue1

2014-04-22, 11:59

Would it be too far fetched to claim that Ikuko "finding" the "confession" was a fantasy scene?

Honestly I don't know. The Confession is in Featherine's library and in Tohya's memories so I think that a 'Confession of the Golden Witch' existed.
If Ikuko isn't Yasu it's also needed to explain how she could know everything.

The way she found it though might have been different from the way it was depicted according to the spoilers. But I think we need to see the scene prior to judging it.

I found odd how the paper on which the confession was written was red instead than white but red paper exists or it could have been white paper that got dirtied in blood so... so far we can't really say...

haguruma

2014-04-22, 12:30

Honestly I don't know. The Confession is in Featherine's library and in Tohya's memories so I think that a 'Confession of the Golden Witch' existed.
If Ikuko isn't Yasu it's also needed to explain how she could know everything.
Also, considering it a fantasy-scene is basically going back to the whole "let's refuse everything" schtick. What good would it be to completely lie about this?
What I do consider somehow is that the "bottle message written on blood red paper" might actually be a representation of Battler himself who told her everything.

Though...rethinking it, the text you found said that this bottle as well was tossed before the actual incident

But yes, we need to see the scene to actually judge it
One more week and I can!!!!

Renall

2014-04-22, 12:31

"Red paper" is clearly a literary device, meaning that essentially all contents of the document are of the same weight as red truth. Which honestly more than anything would kind of suggest a fantasy of a sort. However the only thing "a message bottle containing the confession found by the side of the road" could really be a stand-in for would be Battler's memories and receiving the confession in some manner through that. And that would obviously say a few things about Battler's memories, as to have been derived from him he'd have to have learned them somehow.

Or maybe she just found a bottle coincidentally containing straight answers instead of a story and never told anyone because people wanted answers so let's Deus Ex Machina shoehorn them in Ikuko's story is already pretty heavy on coincidence, so what's a little more?

jjblue1

2014-04-22, 14:38

Also, considering it a fantasy-scene is basically going back to the whole "let's refuse everything" schtick. What good would it be to completely lie about this?
What I do consider somehow is that the "bottle message written on blood red paper" might actually be a representation of Battler himself who told her everything.

Yes, the bottle might be an 'embellishment' of what Ikuko really found.

Though...rethinking it, the text you found said that this bottle as well was tossed before the actual incident

If it was tossed before the incident then it can't contain the truth of what happened during those two days.

But yes, we need to see the scene to actually judge it
One more week and I can!!!!

Lucky you!

"Red paper" is clearly a literary device, meaning that essentially all contents of the document are of the same weight as red truth. Which honestly more than anything would kind of suggest a fantasy of a sort.

Honestly if that's the case I would have preferred written in red ink. It would still be red truth but it would make it look less odd that written on red pages.

However the only thing "a message bottle containing the confession found by the side of the road" could really be a stand-in for would be Battler's memories and receiving the confession in some manner through that. And that would obviously say a few things about Battler's memories, as to have been derived from him he'd have to have learned them somehow.

Unless Ikuko found Yasu and Battler but Yasu was mortally wounded and managed only to tell her her story before dying as some sort of atonement? Or message to pass to Battler?

In this case the sinking of the magic scene would be more like fainting due to her wounds. Battler tries to save her but can't. However he loses memory so he's sort with her.

Or maybe she just found a bottle coincidentally containing straight answers instead of a story and never told anyone because people wanted answers so let's Deus Ex Machina shoehorn them in Ikuko's story is already pretty heavy on coincidence, so what's a little more?

I honestly don't like the idea that there was a bottle the story never hinted at (as so far the story only hinted at Yasu tossing her tales in the sea, not her own story without magic involved) that coincidentally was found by Ikuko that coincidentally found Battler as well that coincidentally decided to hide him and bribe the doctor, that was a writer so she could conenct with Battler/Tohya and yadda, yadda yadda, have your fun with the coincidentally.

I mean... it makes sense but I'm really finding hard to swallow how coincidentally an Italian submarine filled with gold and with a beautiful Italian woman ended up in Japan and not in Spain so really, I would apprecciate if the explanation of stuffs that don't make sense avoided coincidences that feel like miracles.

GreyZone

2014-04-22, 15:54

I am merely trying to evaluate, if this would kill the Ikuko=Yasu theory or not. But I guess to know it for sure we will have to see the scene(s) for ourselves somehow.

So on one hand we have the "bad implications" created by Yasu being Ikuko... on the other hand we have "endless nine coincidences"-RandomStranger. I am not sure if this can end well... but oh well this game will have no happy ending after all.

haguruma

2014-04-22, 16:57

I honestly don't like the idea that there was a bottle the story never hinted at (as so far the story only hinted at Yasu tossing her tales in the sea, not her own story without magic involved)
Well, the basic idea that stories were tossed in the sea exists though, and since the stories are a weird form of confession anyway, it isn't completely impossible that there would be a confessional letter among them.
What I would agree with is that there should either be a letter, Battler at the shore, or Battler with a bottle on the shore...but both events as separate incidents seems too much of a coincidence, there I agree.

that coincidentally was found by Ikuko that coincidentally found Battler as well that coincidentally decided to hide him and bribe the doctor, that was a writer so she could conenct with Battler/Tohya and yadda, yadda yadda, have your fun with the coincidentally.
Well, here it depends how we read the story...whether we accept the meta-world as existent or not. Featherine says that Ikuko was her being written into the story. The question here is, whether this means that Ikuko is a complete work of magic, a literal deus ex machina, or that Featherine uses Ikuko as her conduit to the human world and Ikuko still exists as a human despite that.

The manga is yet to develop on that whole story, which will either follow right after the Confession of the Golden Witch arc or at the end of the manga, I suppose.
The VN also mentioned how Ikuko was an outcast, thrown out of her own family, so if she at least suspected who Battler was it might have become an incentive for her to hide him from the start.

I mean... it makes sense but I'm really finding hard to swallow how coincidentally an Italian submarine filled with gold and with a beautiful Italian woman ended up in Japan and not in Spain so really, I would apprecciate if the explanation of stuffs that don't make sense avoided coincidences that feel like miracles.
Well, I didn't find the submarine story all that hard to swallow. It's not like it is impossible, though a little weird considering that there was a war going on in the Pacific and that Roosevelt had apparently authorized the sinking of any Axis vessel in Pacific waters. With a little luck the way is very likely and Italians after 1943 would have avoided Spain like hell, since this was exactly the place where they would have been killed.

The story of them fleeing to Japan isn't that hard to swallow, a WWII vessel would have also likely been able to make the distance via the sea-channels connecting Eurasia...the only thing demanding a little miracle was the situation in the Pacific, especially around Southern Japan at that time.

And since the name of the witch is Beatrice and Kinzo was said to have made a pact with her during the war...it was actually pretty obvious that she must have been an Italian woman.

jjblue1

2014-04-22, 18:52

Well, the basic idea that stories were tossed in the sea exists though, and since the stories are a weird form of confession anyway, it isn't completely impossible that there would be a confessional letter among them.
What I would agree with is that there should either be a letter, Battler at the shore, or Battler with a bottle on the shore...but both events as separate incidents seems too much of a coincidence, there I agree.

While not impossible I find it quite a jump. The stories are 'confessions' written in a very coded way. You might guess the culprit but not all the backstory. "Confession" presents itself as a mere retelling of Sayo's life with all the details about the backstory and the solution... if it's going to present a mystery after this.
In Confession you must not guess the culprit, you've Sayo's heart presented so that you can judge it.

I admit it's not the first jump in Umineko... but as this is sort of important I would have apprecciated if it was foreshadowed better.

Well, here it depends how we read the story...whether we accept the meta-world as existent or not. Featherine says that Ikuko was her being written into the story. The question here is, whether this means that Ikuko is a complete work of magic, a literal deus ex machina, or that Featherine uses Ikuko as her conduit to the human world and Ikuko still exists as a human despite that.

The manga is yet to develop on that whole story, which will either follow right after the Confession of the Golden Witch arc or at the end of the manga, I suppose.
The VN also mentioned how Ikuko was an outcast, thrown out of her own family, so if she at least suspected who Battler was it might have become an incentive for her to hide him from the start.

Well, the manga already told us the bit in which Ikuko picked up Tohya so a real person calling herself Ikuko and rescuing Tohya either existed or is his delusion... which can explain why she doesn't seem to age. But if Ikuko is a delusion the not aging part is the only hint... and it could be that instead it was a hint to imply that actually Ange never became Yukari and that meeting never took place but was merely written in a tale.

So yes, let's wait and see how things will go.

Well, I didn't find the submarine story all that hard to swallow. It's not like it is impossible, though a little weird considering that there was a war going on in the Pacific and that Roosevelt had apparently authorized the sinking of any Axis vessel in Pacific waters. With a little luck the way is very likely and Italians after 1943 would have avoided Spain like hell, since this was exactly the place where they would have been killed.

Nope. After 8/Sept/1943 a part of the Italian ships that didn't want to end in American or German hands reached Spanish territory. As Spain was neutral they couldn't hand them to either party so the ships were basically stopped there, not under control of Spain but not free to leave and remained there until the end of the war.
Italian sailors had a certain freedom and could come and go from the ships provided they didn't try to get to far and were free to move for the city.

This would have allowed to hide the gold on the submarine till the end of the war as Spain couldn't take possession of it nor inspect the ship. Also since the sailors had a certain freedom they could try to move it ingot by ingot secretly.

Spain was also close to Italy and so comfortable to reach and Spanish-Italian relations weren't bad despite Spain being neutral so the sailors didn't risk being mistreated.

Going to Japan included a risky travel and since Japan was at war and about to lose it the risk that the gold would end in American hands anyway.

And since the name of the witch is Beatrice and Kinzo was said to have made a pact with her during the war...it was actually pretty obvious that she must have been an Italian woman.

Ep 7 mentions Rubens, an Italian soldier... only he doesn't have an Italian name.
Kinzo's children and grandchildren all have English sounding names.

After Virgilia shows up you can easily guess that the name might have been chosen as a reference to the Divina Commedia and can assume it's not necessary of an Italian person but of the child of a Divina Commedia reader like Kinzo or just a coincidence of which anime have plenty.

(I won't go into how Beatrice is pronunced in the Japanese way and not in the Italian way because that's a standard in Japanese media)

Honestly my main suspicious on Umineko involving Italians were due to the huge amount of Italian lyrics in the songs... though there are other series with Italian text in the lyrics and no relation with Italy.

jjblue1

2014-04-23, 10:43

Umineko Spoilers!
Part 1 (http://beatotsundere.tumblr.com/post/83612813974/umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-ep8-twilight-of-the-golden)

Part 2 (http://beatotsundere.tumblr.com/post/83612950645/umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-ep8-twilight-of-the-golden)

Of course I can't read them but from what I can see it seems Syao informed Genji of her plan and... that she's the author of Ep 3 & 4.
So were Banquet and Alliance not forgeries but real messages posted in the net as forgeries but originally authored by Sayo?
And it seems the chapter includes the first meeting between Sayo and Lambda that originally was in a tip.
There are some solutions for the games, Sayo's inner conflict and how the messages were tossed in the sea on the 3rd of October as well as the bank account.

... and I fear Confession ends really on the 3rd of October so no additional info on the truth of Rokkenjima.

On a personal note I prefer if Ep 3 & 4 were written by Sayo as they fit with the fact they're a challenge to Battler from Sayo/Beatrice, while if the author was Tohya it was a challenge to himself. However I'm still confused about why Tohya printed them under his name... sort of. Should we assume that since Ange's meeting with Hachijo was a fantasy all the info about Banquet and Alliance are false?

Renall

2014-04-23, 11:05

Drifloon

2014-04-23, 11:20

jjblue1

2014-04-23, 11:21

Technically, we're never told in the VN which episodes are message bottle stories (except that Land was one of them and was lost). It's always been assumed that the two known message bottle stories were Legend and Turn but before the manga I don't know if there was confirmation of that. You're correct that there were claims regarding the authorship of Banquet/Alliance but in fairness the details around that were always pretty fuzzy.

The bigger problem would be a thematic one, or at least a plausibility gap. The text probably clarifies things though.
There was no confirmation that Legend and turn were messages in the bottles. What we were told was however that:

Of all the Forgers, Itouikukuro was the one most highly regarded.
"......End of the Golden Witch. I've read that one. ......Seems you love killing off other people's families."
"Is that why you came all this way? Just to say that...? I think not, final descendant of the Ushiromiya family."
In her latest forgery, 'End', she killed off seven of my relatives, at least during the actual story.
No, if you count 'Alliance' and 'Banquet', the other forgeries she's made before now, then she's killed off most of my family in horrible ways, over and over again...
Of course I'd want to complain.
However, all of her works are known for being, in both form and level of completion, the closest tales to those written by 'Ushiromiya Maria' herself.
In particular, Itouikukuro's first forgery, 'Banquet of the Golden Witch', managed to show everything, including Ushiromiya Eva's escape to Kuwadorian. People wondered whether this might be the true story of Rokkenjima, and it even made it onto the talk shows...

This seems to imply the author of Banquet, Alliance and End is the same.
However there's to say the episodes we read are written from Battler's point of view when the narrator should be Maria so... are they remake?
Even Featherine says she used to watch Beato's gameboard from Battler's eyes and now she wants to watch Dawn through Ange's eyes... meaning maybe Battler was the reader/narrator?

Renall

2014-04-23, 11:24

If the text even remotely resembles the narration, Maria couldn't possibly have been the narrator of any of those episodes. Unless we're seeing a complete rewrite, I have to assume Battler was always intended as the protagonist/detective. And that would kinda make more sense anyway given Yasu's objectives and the fact that Maria would know more about what was going on.

That still doesn't explain why Yasu would sign her message bottles as Maria, but the mere fact that she did so doesn't suddenly mean Maria would've also been the narrator. The stories are clearly works of fiction anyway.

jjblue1

2014-04-23, 11:29

Huh, so it's possible that Yasu wrote EP3 and EP4 afetr all? It's easy to miss, but actually, according to EP6 (http://i.imgur.com/mXbLTim.png), it was common for message bottle Forgers to claim that their works were authentic message bottles. Obviously that claim was generally assumed to be a lie, but it's entirely possible that "Hachijo Tohya" might have actually been telling the truth about it. That exact possibility is even explicitly brought up (http://i.imgur.com/70sqdHq.png) in the text, actually.

Back then I considered the possibility that Sayo had showed Battler her games and he then unconsciously worked them into his tales as part of memories he sort of lost yet were still there. So he's the author but the idea isn't fully original. However I had discharged that theory in favour of him writing using the memories he had of that day.

I had thought about that possibility before - it would make more sense of the meta-plot presenting Beatrice as the writer of all the first four episodes, at least - but at the same time I kind of liked a lot of the implications that could be drawn from Tohya being the author of those episodes. It seems like a shame to lose that, but we'll see what happens.

Personally I like that they're written from Sayo/Beatrice... but now I wonder who's playing Lambda's role here. Who wrote Ep 5, the loveless game? Ikuko? Tohya? Someone else? Theoretically Ep 6 should be authored by Tohya to fit with the fact it was written by Battler... so it can be Ep 5 was written by Ikuko who had read Sayo's confession but didn't understand her heart.

There's to wonder something. This means the part about the Teaparty post the slaughtering in the golden room and that's based on Ep 4 is likely fictional... unless Kyrie was an accomplice, she was told about that plan and decided to use it for her own purposes?

If the text even remotely resembles the narration, Maria couldn't possibly have been the narrator of any of those episodes. Unless we're seeing a complete rewrite, I have to assume Battler was always intended as the protagonist/detective. And that would kinda make more sense anyway given Yasu's objectives and the fact that Maria would know more about what was going on.

That still doesn't explain why Yasu would sign her message bottles as Maria, but the mere fact that she did so doesn't suddenly mean Maria would've also been the narrator. The stories are clearly works of fiction anyway.

Honestly, at this point I don't know what to think and what we're supposed to believe. Ep 1 seemed to imply the narrator in the messages was Maria and Ep 4 seemed to confirm this but whoever read the episodes have the feeling is Battler.

GoldenLand

2014-04-23, 11:37

Ouch, it's harsh seeing Kanon and Shannon kill Jessica and George (in the bottle stories). Though we already knew they were the ones who did it.

Interesting that Yasu appears to have written more eps than thought. It's a nice way to separate the question and answer arcs.

Kealym

2014-04-23, 14:56

Well, it is sorta meant to act as an opposite to Bern's rethoric about the murders and in that sense is of course really "squeaky clean" as Bern puts it. The funny thing is that this is highlighted by her under the terms of "yes, but it's a GM's job to show a one-sided account and the player's job to uncover the truth behind that"...so she already admits that she herself is doing the very same thing.
I'm not so sure. Battler in EP8 has certainly presented "a gameboard", but he tries repeatedly to tell Ange that he isn't playing against her, in the traditional sense. Bern is almost definitely right that his overly-roundabout way of communicating what he wanted to say ("remember your family who loved you", "they could get along very well at times", etc etc) is what caused Ange to struggle with it.
Bern's game and rethoric is equally guilty of "making it easy" since she paints all the relatives as horrible people who Ange doesn't have to feel guilty about judging. It's both kinda, sorta escapism.
On the surface, I agree. At the time of EP7, I also assumed Bern's show was boorish trolling because of how oddly malicious everyone suddenly was. Given the reveal that it was more or less what actually happened, though, now I'm not so sure.

If you're referring to Bern's logic game in EP8, well, the characters are actually still themselves, really (except for Battler), Bern just didn't bother making an actual story around the murders.

Well, he actually says that it is for her to remember their hearts and souls, the "them that she didn't know or forgot about". I don't think that Battler was effectively lying about them - Bern also mentions how he removed the epitaph in order to remove the "igniting spark that sets off the tragedy" - he is simple showing an amlgamation of everything that got left out of public opinion post-1986.
Agreed. I'm just sayin', Ange asked for "the truth of 1986" and what he gave her was definitely ... not it.

On the contrary, the first movie on the Zodiac killer, actually titled The Zodiac Killer, was released in 1971...while the case was still very much in the process. There is not much that actually holds back such processes, especially TV movies, books and pop-magazines are really quick to report on these things.
Wow that sounds amazingly rude.
The wikipedia article is just a blurb but I was hope it was panned at the time at least just for being tactless.

AHS is pretty fun, isn't it?
This reminds me, Lana Winters from AHS: Asylum is pretty much how I imagined Ikuko to be.
Heh, I need to go back and see the first two seasons. So far I've only seen Coven. :D

Are we sure he isn't an accomplice? He and Natsuhi were lead out of the house. It might be they left on purpose.
I unfortunately can't remember where, but I'm almost certain it was confirmed in the manga that the adults had no part in the EP3 First Twilight, and had fallen for Yasu's elaborate "send them running everywhere while I hide" charade. At the very least, such a trick wouldn't have been necessary if there was an accomplice among the adults.

I'm really hoping the manga elaborates on whatever was going on between Yasu and Eva later on in the arc, though.

I'm not discussing the fact that people can be multifaced but the difference is that Battler is presented as a fundamentally good person who even cry by seeing George lose his parents. Krauss is more like Rosa. She's very sorry she beat her daughter and neglect her but... can't stop. And Krauss is very sorry he's a jerk to his siblings but... can't stop.
Indeed, and I more or less agree.
My point is the accusation of "Krauss regrets not being nice to his siblings" is "sugarcoating", and somehow very suspicious. Is it also "sugarcoating" when Rosa and Maria get along, even though we know most of their relationship was bad?
I'm trying to draw a line of difference between the occasional positive traits of a character (Kyrie gives Rosa legit parenting advice, consolation, claims they should hang out more), which is something we get a lot of, and Battler's EP8 "We love each other 100% of the time and have no problems whatsoever", which comes aff as hard to believe as being true.

While personally I think that it's unlikely the kids would kill for the heck of it they declare to be more or less ready to do so if someone were to threaten/kill their loved ones.
Yeah, that's all true. I'm not saying the kids would NEVER be able to kill someone or attack someone ; I'm sure that's possible. Just that it would require the proper motivation / a sensible build-up, based on what we know about them. I think we agree more than we don't.

I'm also not saying, for example, that Eva would bump off Krauss at ANY given opportunity. Obviously, he's lived at least 50 years without Eva trying to invite him into the suspiciously isolated woods with an axe behind her back. Just that, a believable build up to violence for Eva is ... different from what it'd be for, say, George.

Battler insisted into presenting over and over all the people there as nice ones and defending them all. He doesn't search a culprit, he search a way to absolve the 18. Ep 8 is, I guess, his way.
But he was wrong, that's the thing!
Not even in my personal opinion, but just outright wrong. The only reason he couldn't solve EP2 despite it being fairly straightforward is because he insisted on blaming 19th Person X, and he had to overcome that delusion to make any progress at all. Even if EP3, he's willing to accuse Eva since the evidence and narrative single her out, and he comes at least a little closer to what Beato wanted him to get at.

It's not that they don't have negative emotions ever, it's that they admit they HAD them but now they want to overcome them because there's no reason to have them.
But it's still ... a farce, really. Kinzo is dead. Eva and Krauss never made up. Rosa and Maria never made up. Rudolf ... ... may or may not have mentioned the baby thing, that's harder to judge. Battler wanted Ange to remember a certain side of her relatives, and also give their pieces narrative closure, I guess.

Considering the relatives all died in 1986, Ryu probably didn't have many routes to closing their plot threads. For the readers, it would perhaps be unsatisfying to spend so long reading about Rosa and not have it get any closure, for example, so the author can hit two birds with one Halloween Party.

The real obvious lie is that actually they were under a lot of stress generated by money problems, Kinzo's actions, Krauss' fraud and likely didn't feel like making up at all. They were in the middle of a desperate argument and so they ended up behaving at their worst. Battler removes the argument and so they behave at their best. His game is not a complete absurdity... it's more like a possibility lost, like Natsuhi accepting to raise Lion and becoming a good mother for him.
I think we're more in agreement than not. In fact, I think we can assume that the conferences before 1985 (the first one where Kinzo was dead, and nobody needed money desperately yet) were probably very smooth affairs that bounced seamlessly between normal family talk over dinner, and maybe Kinzo inquiring about how much money his kids had made that year (since they seemed to borrow from him semi-often)

LOL, if that was a clue left on purpose this means as soon as I'm going to re-read Ep 2 I'm going to search for another obvious one. I love this sort of things!
MAN, EP2 is gonna be a BLAST.

A more recent example of a quick buildup of public interest would be the D.C. Sniper case. The mystique of the killings there came from the audacity of them, that someone was shooting at people with a high-powered rifle in broad daylight. It began to die down once they identified and caught the shooters because they hadn't done much to either fan the flames while still doing the killings (as Zodiac did) and didn't turn out to be someone surprising or unexpected (as Bundy was).
I remember that somewhat well, since I live in the area. :(

I recall the occasional joke about white vans and a lot of talk in the news, but there was still a sense of tragedy for the victims that wasn't tread upon, carelessly. I do recall a bit of shock that they weren't white guys, but that's all. I also don't remember hearing anything very solid about a motive, either.

Unless Ikuko found Yasu and Battler but Yasu was mortally wounded and managed only to tell her her story before dying as some sort of atonement? Or message to pass to Battler?
Doesn't that really long article from the manga about the culprit say something like "her body that was blown away that day"? I took that to imply much more strongly than before that Yasu had simply died (for realsies) that day?

That still doesn't explain why Yasu would sign her message bottles as Maria, but the mere fact that she did so doesn't suddenly mean Maria would've also been the narrator. The stories are clearly works of fiction anyway.
Sometimes, I think the signature from Maria was just a shout out to Higurashi that just didn't pan out as well as he'd have hoped. A logical oversight, or something.

Renall

2014-04-23, 15:19

Maria actually maybe could have been the narrator of Turn. The First Twilight is dedicated to her, she has that scene at the end with Rosa, and so on and so forth. The problem is that if that's true then the entire board narrative of Turn is some kind of alternate reading because it comes from Battler's POV instead of Maria's. While it might be plausible to believe that some parts of the stories/Forgeries weren't included in the full package we're presented, I don't think the entire narrative perspective was changed.

jjblue1

2014-04-23, 16:19

I unfortunately can't remember where, but I'm almost certain it was confirmed in the manga that the adults had no part in the EP3 First Twilight, and had fallen for Yasu's elaborate "send them running everywhere while I hide" charade. At the very least, such a trick wouldn't have been necessary if there was an accomplice among the adults.

I'm really hoping the manga elaborates on whatever was going on between Yasu and Eva later on in the arc, though.

Honestly I don't remember such confirmation but Our confession showed that people who take order from Yasu don't necessarily work all together or know the full plan. Krauss and Natsuhi were blackmailed/bribed into being accomplices and thought the servants too were blackmailed but actually the servants were just bribed into taking part to a game.

In Ep 5 we've again Natsuhi blackmailed into obeying to Yasu and the adults bribed into doing what she suggest but of course Natsuhi and the adults aren't in the same team.

My feeling in Ep 3 is that Natsuhi and Krauss might have been blackmailed/bribed again and form... let's call it Team Yasu 1, the servants and Nanjo form Team Yasu 2, Eva and possibly Hideyoshi form Team Yasu 3 (if Eva had a hinch Nanjo cooperated with Yasu in killing George or that Shannon killed him she might have killed both herself so she probably was contacted by Yasu only through phone). Rosa might form Team Yasu 4 (she found the gold but this didn't stop things... so this can mean she was bribed as well as Eva?). Maria is Team Yasu 5 (she's not bribed with money and she believes in magic so she probably doesn't think to a prank but to real magic?).

Indeed, and I more or less agree.
My point is the accusation of "Krauss regrets not being nice to his siblings" is "sugarcoating", and somehow very suspicious. Is it also "sugarcoating" when Rosa and Maria get along, even though we know most of their relationship was bad?
I'm trying to draw a line of difference between the occasional positive traits of a character (Kyrie gives Rosa legit parenting advice, consolation, claims they should hang out more), which is something we get a lot of, and Battler's EP8 "We love each other 100% of the time and have no problems whatsoever", which comes aff as hard to believe as being true.

Well, I fear the point becomes mooth as the last developments of the manga revealed that Ep 3 was written by Yasu who probably didn't feel like sugarcoating... even if the adults in the mystery side of Ep 3 & 4 seems much more gentle and close than in Ep 1 & 2.

Yeah, that's all true. I'm not saying the kids would NEVER be able to kill someone or attack someone ; I'm sure that's possible. Just that it would require the proper motivation / a sensible build-up, based on what we know about them. I think we agree more than we don't.

I'm also not saying, for example, that Eva would bump off Krauss at ANY given opportunity. Obviously, he's lived at least 50 years without Eva trying to invite him into the suspiciously isolated woods with an axe behind her back. Just that, a believable build up to violence for Eva is ... different from what it'd be for, say, George.

Yes, we probably are more on the same line that it seems.
And... LOL, I don't know why but I can't seriously see the scene of Eva waiting for Krauss with an axe behind his back. I guess I really don't think Eva's the type to do so...

But he was wrong, that's the thing!
Not even in my personal opinion, but just outright wrong. The only reason he couldn't solve EP2 despite it being fairly straightforward is because he insisted on blaming 19th Person X, and he had to overcome that delusion to make any progress at all. Even if EP3, he's willing to accuse Eva since the evidence and narrative single her out, and he comes at least a little closer to what Beato wanted him to get at.

Well, it's really easy for us to accuse A or B but for him those are his relatives and other people for whom he felt a certain fondness. Years of knowing them as good people who never went around murdering anyone would make look like impossible they would just decide to go on a murdering rampage that year.
The only one he could suspect a little more easier are Gohda and Kanon, as he just met them... but he develops a liking for them basically as soon as he met them so he sort of reject the idea (also probably suspecting them would make suspicious the whole group of the servants, not just the two newcomers).

Battler isn't the only one who feels so. George and Jessica won't doubt at all of Shannon and Kanon and they too won't be able to solve anything.

We see the tales from a mystery perspective, where extra people couldn't exist. In real life someone could have gone to Rokkenjima unnotice prior to the storm (Kuwabata previously used to go to Kuwadorian unknown to the other Ushiromiya so we know it's not impossible), hide in... let's say the church when the storm started or in any other place even one of the many rooms of the house and start killing.

Natsuhi always had the habit of having the servants close the door because she feared someone could get in the house without them noticing so for the Ushiromiya someone unauthorized wandering on the island isn't weird. In Ep 1 Natsuhi is sure that the killer is an extra person until a letter appear in the study and she believes the servants and Maria are involved.

So let's not be too severe with Battler. No one solves the murders and who suspects of others often choses a target among the people he didn't like (Natsuhi believes it was Eva who dirtied her door).

I also wouldn't say Battler is completely wrong. Humans aren't completely black or white. Battler sees the nice side of many people who exists, along with the dark one.

Eva was a playful and funny aunt and a loving wife and mother. She also happened to have a horrible relation with Krauss that was made worse by Krauss' actions and her own need for money.

But what really matters is if she hadn't been put in a certain situation probably she would have never shot him in Ep 3. She wasn't an inborn killer, a cold person that callously would get rid of who's on her way, family and enemies alike. Like everyone however could do wrong stuffs.

But it's still ... a farce, really. Kinzo is dead. Eva and Krauss never made up. Rosa and Maria never made up. Rudolf ... ... may or may not have mentioned the baby thing, that's harder to judge. Battler wanted Ange to remember a certain side of her relatives, and also give their pieces narrative closure, I guess.

Considering the relatives all died in 1986, Ryu probably didn't have many routes to closing their plot threads. For the readers, it would perhaps be unsatisfying to spend so long reading about Rosa and not have it get any closure, for example, so the author can hit two birds with one Halloween Party.

It's something that didn't happen, yes. However we can't say it's something that, given the chance, would have never happened. I guess it had the potential to happen had they survived. Part of it maybe even used to happen in the past (maybe they really had Halloween parties and exchanged presents). The only thing that's an absolute farce is to have Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice around at the same time... but that might be an extra what if to show Yasu that in that happy possibility she could have been accepted as each of her incarnations.

The real problem though is it's presented not as a possibility but as THE truth and Ange can't do nothing but reject it because she's not interested in speculations and memories of prior 1986.
Actually I think warm memories and accepting that the adults weren't monsters but normal people that ended up doing bad things could help her but at the moment what she feels as her need is completely different.

Some pain killers need to be taken on a full stomach. But when you're madly in pain and someone presents you with food and you don't know a full stomach is necessary to eat the painkiller you might reject it and demand the painkiller. Then you'll take it and feel worse than before.

I think we're more in agreement than not. In fact, I think we can assume that the conferences before 1985 (the first one where Kinzo was dead, and nobody needed money desperately yet) were probably very smooth affairs that bounced seamlessly between normal family talk over dinner, and maybe Kinzo inquiring about how much money his kids had made that year (since they seemed to borrow from him semi-often)

Yes, likely those reunions weren't so bad. Maybe Kinzo would even play with the cousins a bit and the adults would act friendly.

MAN, EP2 is gonna be a BLAST.

I can't wait to start it!

Doesn't that really long article from the manga about the culprit say something like "her body that was blown away that day"? I took that to imply much more strongly than before that Yasu had simply died (for realsies) that day?

It does but it claims there was only 1 survivor, Eva, when actually Battler survived to so we'll have to say in which contaxt that sentence was said (all in all though I fear Sayo's dead... logic says she died but my heart is in denial...)

Sometimes, I think the signature from Maria was just a shout out to Higurashi that just didn't pan out as well as he'd have hoped. A logical oversight, or something.

Likely it's a reference to Higurashi. I'll wait to judge it to when we'll know what the text say.

Maria actually maybe could have been the narrator of Turn. The First Twilight is dedicated to her, she has that scene at the end with Rosa, and so on and so forth. The problem is that if that's true then the entire board narrative of Turn is some kind of alternate reading because it comes from Battler's POV instead of Maria's. While it might be plausible to believe that some parts of the stories/Forgeries weren't included in the full package we're presented, I don't think the entire narrative perspective was changed.

Well, if we consider that Sayo wrote Ep 1-4 it gets really difficult to think Maria signed Ep 3 as... she died pretty early on.
Honestly I don't know what to think about the narrator. So far the only logical conclusion seems that the story we read and the story in the message bottles were different at least in terms of narration... because Ep 4 too confirms the messages were supposed to be written by Maria and not by Battler.

Let's see if the new chapter will clear things up?

haguruma

2014-04-23, 17:20

Translation time!!!
Honestly, it really kills me that I don't have the full chapters...I'm just burning to fill everybody in as well, once I have them.

Part 1
p1
I am the true ruler of Rokkenjima
the Golden Witch Beatrice...

p2
I shall return Rokkenjima and the whole household of Ushiromiya to the Golden Land
for I am the witch of gold that enthralls this household, Beatrice

p3
Sayo: Even if I said I wanted to commit suicide together with this whole household?
Sayo(memory): I would never have wanted to live! In this body that can't even love!
Genji: ........................yes
For I too am to blame for driving you into this corner, my mistress.
I shall serve you until the very end.

p4-5
Rule X: The accomplicee is different every time.
The adults are all in financial trouble.
It is easy to bribe them.

Rule Y: Lies agreed on by everyone can be depicted as actually happening.
In a locked room situation anything goes.

People who observe the golden butterflies are either accomplicees or dead.
Those who were not bribed can only see the golden butterflies in the timespace of 30 minutes before their death.

From that point onwards I began to write down plans for a crime as if I had gone mad.

To question which future might be the best and what circumstances might satisfy me...

I wrote these tales of endless October 4th to 5th embellished with this illusion of magic

To me, being used to playing around with delusions, this was no mere plan for a crime...
but also the idea of parallel worlds on this day of the crime.

Sayo: Die

As if my soul was released from my body and I was able to experience all of these worlds...

Sayo: Die! Die! Die! Die! DIE!

p6-7
Sayo: Die! Die! DieDie! Die! Die!

I started to find a sinister delight in the act of endlessly killing all of the family

Sayo: Die! Die! Die!
Letter: ...th twilight as a sacrifice and died.
...th twilight as a sacrifice and died.
...th twilight as a sacrifice and died.
...th twilight as a sacrifice and died.
...th twilight as a sacrifice and died.

Ushiromiya Kinzo

With his accursed blood and all his sins he is the root of all of the chain of misfortune

To think that you should have the right to rest in peace
shouldn't it satisfy you to serve a role for Beatrice even in death?

Sayo: Die! Die! Die!

All of those who continued the chain of misfortune Kinzo began should die as well

Krauss, who is connected to his siblings by a chain of hatred and violence
Sayo: Die! Die!
and Natsuhi, who derailed my destiny
Sayo: Die!

Eva and Hideyoshi, who stands in the way of my and George-san's future
Sayo: Die! Die!
Rudolph and Kyrie, who gave reason for Battler-san not to return
Sayo: Die! DieDie!
And Rosa, who abused Maria-sama.

Sayo: Die!
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo, who indirectly created this situation by serving as accomplicees to Kinzo
Sayo: Die! Die!
And Gohda who tried to get personal gain out of striking a deal with Natsuhi

It would be better for all people connected to the house of Ushiromiya to cease existing

p.8-9
The scenario is a ritual murder committed by a witch
The plan behind the scenes was my family suicide

With the gold ingots
and the cashcard that was charged with money from converting some of the gold　and the fitting keycode
I would try to win the adults over to my side

code: 07151129

Krauss and Natsuhi have many weaknesses, it should be easy to turn them into my pawns
Still, it would be better to hide my true identity when showing them the gold and threaten them with unveiling their conspiracy to hide Kinzo's death, their embezzelment, or threaten to kill Jessica.

But Natsuhi's will is weak and she is fast to talk, so there is probably not much merrit to making her an accomplicee
There would be more gain in just watching her in terror, not knowing what is happening

For Eva and Hideyoshi it would probably be just as worthwhile to use George as my trumpcard
Eva's actions are simple to predict, she is soft towards her next of kin but quick to leave those outside of her immediate family behind
She would be the perfect pawn in my game

[too unclear/scan cut off]
A clear downside is that Kyrie is fast to doubt people
If I am unable to make them into my pawns early, I should dispose of them as fast as possible...

I doubt whether Rosa would be open to discussion based on Maria's life, but she should be open to the promise of gold

A petty villain like Gohda should be easily bribed and made into a valuable member involved in the secret agreement

The one with the most value as a pawn is Maria

Adoring the witch, she would do whatever I tell her, and there lies a taste of truth in the words of a true believer like her.
She would surely take the role of confusing the people on the scene, as well as thickening the presence of the witch.

Yes, Maria is my most precious accomplicee, who I promised to take to the Golden Land.

I would never allow for her body to be disgraced, she must rest in peace

p.10-11
This is a level of overhead-view that humans cannot reach
This is my domain

p.12-13
Lambda(?): To tread from the physical realm of humans over the threshhold into the realm between the Fragments is a feat that proofs you to be a witch.
And an unexpectedly high one even...
??????
You humans are naught but the waterwheels that are moved by the destiny that we give rise to

And you, while being nothing but a wheel, are attempting to challenge destiny?

Since this child swore to me to "become a God" you are the first to raise my interest.
I am truly intrigued.
In you.
And in your magic system.

While you are nought but human flesh, you have gained my approval by arriving on this our plane of existence.
Your catbox holds perfect and endless possibilities.

Aah! How far will you be able to ease my boredom, I wonder.

Part 2
p.1-2
The timelimit is midnight on October 5th

500t of explosives will blow this island away

Until that moment!

Well then, try and stop me!!

The parents will definitel gather in one place and discuss family matters until deep in the night on the 4th

Murder will be so simple

Their bodies will be hauled to the storage shed that has been painted with a magic circle beforehand, and to hide the bulletholes I will use the sawed-off shotgun to blow off their faces

p.3
Of course there is also the method of locking the door from the inside and then committing suice to create a locked-room
I read that in one of those many mystery novels...
You tie the gun to a string of wire and the blast from the shot will catapult it back behind a piece of furniture to hide it...

I would just have to place a stake beforehand
then the illusion of the witch would prevail beyond my death, wouldn't it?!

Otherwise I could attach a misleading tag to the wrong key and place it in a room
even if I was to look the room from the outside then, the illusion of a locked room wouldn't be broken.
Since nobody except the servants would be able to discern a true key of this mansion from a fake one in the first place.

Of those many tricks I know, which one should I put to the test?!

Aah, but even if I don't go through the huge trouble of preparation, I still have my golden magic of the secret agreements.

p.3-4
You two would gladly sacrifice yourself to my desire, right....?

It's not like I want this

I want the people I love so much to live

That is why I really...

Yes!

I have not yet decided, yet I can think of nothing else.

So, that is why there must be someone else to stop me.

Rule X: Please, somebody stop me!

Kinzo said, solving the epitaph equals a miracle
So if I were to entrust it to a bet on the magic of...miracles

The one to solve the epitaph would arrive at this room, switch off the bomb and survive

I want to gamble with this chance as well.

If by any chance my beloved someone would solve the epitaph and through it inherit the headship...

I would devote my life to that miracle...
I would throw away all my other emotions and would live forever at that person's side...
and I would stop the murders and confess all of my sins

Such a result, whatever end it might bring, I could accept it...
For this would surely be my punishment.

I am sure you will be able to solve it, right?!
You will notice that I am the culprit
and then you will stop me, right....?!

p.5-6
If that might not come true, then at least let us all be happy in the Golden Land.

All of these bottle mails are made in a way that, if you follow all of the many rules, you will be able to unveil the culprit.
That is why each and every one of these bottles contains a confession of my sins.
Repentance for my sins that would not exist had I not written them down.

p.7-8
At least as a small apology I send the bereaved families a very small Golden Land of mine.
-- Of course I know that these would not excuse any of what I did

Once I would have Maria-sama recite the invitation I made her memorize, the curtain on this tragedy would have to rise, I assume.

After that it would all be left to the result of the roulette.
On October 5th when the bell strikes midnight we will surely all be welcomed to a land where we are freed from all of our suffering.

I am the noble witch of Rokkenjima
Beatrice

And I shall make the curtain fall on this accursed bloodline and this chain of ill fate.

On the one hand, wow I wanna be in Japan finally, so I can get this and read it completely and...

On the other hand...wow, this is kinda how I imagined it to have happened, but seeing it actually put to paper makes it kinda even more obvious how insane Sayo was in the end...
Yes, it's over the top, it's crazy, but it is very much in style of mystery stories and you could say that this is also a trope that the story has to fullfill. And honestly, I kinda like it how her whole mindset is put together, even though it makes her a little less of a good guy. Honestly, most of what she said is, at least from her limited perspective, quite true.

But, I didn't find it anywhere that she truly DID write Banquet and Alliance. Yes, stories like these were among her's...but it isn't clearly said that they were her's

jjblue1

2014-04-23, 18:36

Kirroha

2014-04-23, 20:03

Genji has always been Genji. He was never a friend. He was loyal to a fault. That's why when she said she wanted to die, he would just agree to help her. Not do what a friend should do - try to convince her otherwise. I think Genji himself was pretty suicidal too after Kinzo's death.

I don't think she included confessions in the message bottles. It's just that the tales she wrote were "supposed" to be confessions IF you can unveil the mysteries within. After all, throughout the tales she wrote, the only culprit could've been Sayo Yasuda.

And I think Maria was strangled by Eva in Ep3 so that she could tell no tales. Ep3 was the one that was usurped by Eva partway through the murders. Eva was killin', Sayo was cleaning up her mess and stakin'.

And thanks so so much for the translations, haguruma. It's really tragic.

Cao Ni Ma

2014-04-23, 22:22

Kealym

2014-04-23, 23:09

GreyZone

2014-04-23, 23:56

uhm... when did Yasu write Banquet after finding out that Eva survived? I don't think she had much time for that until dying...

And I hope this is no "she accidently guessed right that Eva may be the only survivor". That would be a bit too much of a "coincidence", even for the Umineko scale.

And so we another point that makes the RandomStrangerIkuko theory retroactively less likely, although it was seemingly the most likely possibility until now...

haguruma

2014-04-24, 04:39

Given the reveal that it was more or less what actually happened, though, now I'm not so sure.
It's still a matter of framing, and this is going back all the way to Ryukishi's Onikakushi-hen, in a state of excitment, anger, or fear a confused person can mistake even the kindest gesture for an act of malice.
I'm not saying anybody in the EP7 Teaparty was kind, but at least some of them were making valid points. Krauss IS the one to go to if you want to exchange the gold slowly and without much hassle, Eva SHOULD have gone to jail for what was probably an accident, but we don't know what the people saying these words were actually thinking since it is highly suggested that we are seeing the events through a 3rd person personal perspective of Eva.

Wow that sounds amazingly rude.
The wikipedia article is just a blurb but I was hope it was panned at the time at least just for being tactless.
Well, I've seen it and it is mostly a schlocky horror-thriller...almost on a level of tactlesness with Umineko plot-elements like the EP7 Teaparty. It didn't gain a wide audience, these kind of movies rarely do, but they still have a certain audience...just like many of the true crime TV shows do. Yes, we try to excuse many of these shows by saying, "they are trying to include us in the investigation, in case we have any hints or clues," but, looking at the way they are set and framed, they are clearly also meant to titillate.
Or look at a series like Unsolved Mysteries, that showed (besides supernatural occurences) also murders, abductions and serial killings. Or even shows like Law & Order or Cold Case, which took some of their inspiration from current headlines to heighten the feeling of "authenticity" to the crimes they described.

But as Renall already pointed out, the only unrealistic thought is that anything would ever stop the Witch Hunters. What is likely though is that their interest would die down to a certain degree over time.

I unfortunately can't remember where, but I'm almost certain it was confirmed in the manga that the adults had no part in the EP3 First Twilight, and had fallen for Yasu's elaborate "send them running everywhere while I hide" charade. At the very least, such a trick wouldn't have been necessary if there was an accomplice among the adults.
At least the EP8 manga says that none of people who discovered the First Twilight had any hand in murdering people or creating the locked room scenario. I still think that EP3 was not in the closest sense written by Yasu as a tale like Legend and Turn.
EP3 actually looks much more like a weird EP5'esque scenario. It is either Eva doing the killings and Yasu trying to make them look like her's in order to make Battler find his way to her, or it is Yasu doing the killings and using Eva as a cover-up. Both is kinda supported by the narrative, but especially EP3 doesn't really fit into the rules explained in Confession right now.

Since Rudolph and Kyrie don't die early on, are they accomplicees?
The witch illusion doesn't even come into existence
The epitaph is solved yet she does not stop

Thank you a lot for the translation! I hope it's okay if I link it so as to share it...
I also hope once you'll be in Japan you won't forget about us and share some of the new stuffs you'll learn!
Of course I will share all that stuff. Also working on something else related to EP8.

Well, the point is that the scenes are drawn exactly like the ones in the manga for Banquet and Alliance. Of course the author might have recycled them but it seems a clear hint those were hers as well. Oh well, we'll see if more will be revealed about it...
Well, in that scene she is talking about how there are all these tricks (and the page-break implies that she mentions more on the pages we don't see) and she doesn't even know which ones to pick for each story. So if Ikuko actually found this message bottle "Confession of the Golden Witch" or it is something that "Battler" knew, then they could have used these tricks in their stories just as well.

Though we'll have to wait till more is revealed, since this would create a slight inconsistency with Battler/Tohya realizing the truth during EP5. Unless of course Ikuko is a real bitch and didn't even show him that confession when creating Banquet and Alliance.

I'm not sure about Gohda... which personal deal did he strike? Gohda seems to be the only one who doesn't know about Kinzo's death... so he's just a worker for Natsuhi...
I think that it's meant in a way that he was hired for the precise reason to become Natsuhi's knight with her as the queen in her own game of chess against the family members. It's sadly an element that was never much elaborated upon after EP1 and 2 (and in both one of the two dies First Twilight). Still, if we now consider the story of "he was hired by Natsuhi in order to have a servant she could trust, because all the others obeyed Kinzo", with the knowledge we have it tells us that she hired him exactly because she didn't trust her co-conspirators.
Sayo herself admits that Gohda is a petty villain without much thought to the whole thing beyond fame and riches.

In a way she sounds terribly naive. Yeah, I've read this in a mystery book, it surely works. Yes, it's a piece of cake bribe almost all the adults and make them paws.
And that is probably exactly what went wrong.
We see her practically breaking down in tears when writing about killing George and Jessica. She is so delusional about the idea that it would definitely be Battler who solves the epitaph...
But I think the biggest mistake she made was, thinking that the person arriving at the underground VIP room would definitely turn off the bomb and let everybody survive. That was the biggest inconsistency in her own reasoning.

And so... in each bottle there was a confession also? The game doesn't really talk about them, were they removed before showing the bottles? That's odd...[/QUOTE]
What she meant was, like already said here, every one of these stories is a confession and as long as you follow the rules she created you will arrive at the culprit Yasuda Sayo/Beatrice/Shkannon.
She also apparently wrote (have to check that in the actual manga) at the start of Confession that this was the one bottle that she never wanted to reach the shore. Yet it kinda fits the theme of her roulette again, to toss in an obvious confession as well.

Also, I find it hilarious that at least, thus far, the issue of Ange's exclusion from the conference is going entirely ignored.
Yeah, I also hope that this will be mentioned at some point. I mean, maybe it is among the missing pages.

Also, I found Sayo's choice of words interesting. When she said she wanted to die with the whole household, she spoke of shinjuu with her whole household. Shinjuu is a concept that fans of Japanese period dramas will have definitely encountered before (anybody else I'm not sure).
It is written with the kanji for heart and center and in it's other (more archaic) interpretation it meant "one's true mind and devotion". Shinjuu is often translated today as lover's suicide (since that is how it often appears in plays) but there is also the Shinjuu of a whole family. This often happens when family heads see themselves unable to face hardships or overcome troubles, so they prefer to be with their loved ones in death.

So Sayo basically says that the murders are her cover-up for her actual plan, being together with her family in death.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-24, 04:46

GoldenLand

2014-04-24, 05:16

"And Gohda who tried to get personal gain out of striking a deal with Natsuhi

It would be better for all people connected to the house of Ushiromiya to cease existing"

Gohda got hired for a job on the island, what a bastard! He deserves to die for that! :twitch:

At least that can be explained a bit better by the next line as Yasu being so nuts at this point that she thought everyone connected to the Ushiromiyas should just die.

I'm going to have to read that translation a bunch of times more. It's a bit hard for it to sink in. There's definitely a blurring of reality and the bottle stories going on there. She wrote her stories in a frenzied state, certainly, but how much of it she brought into reality or was capable of bringing into reality I don't know. She does sound villainous there.

It does look as if Genji really was AOK with "supporting" Yasu no matter how suicidal and crazy and in need of genuine support she was. What is it with him? It could be loyalty on his part, but maybe with Kinzo dead, Genji didn't really want to live either and no longer cared about anything.

"You two would gladly sacrifice yourself to my desire, right....?"

Daaaamn. That sounds (without checking the spoiler pics) as if she's talking about Jessica and George. What a thing to say about the people she's in love with. So that's how it was justified.

"If by any chance my beloved someone would solve the epitaph and through it inherit the headship...

I would devote my life to that miracle...
I would throw away all my other emotions and would live forever at that person's side...
and I would stop the murders and confess all of my sins

Such a result, whatever end it might bring, I could accept it...
For this would surely be my punishment."

Looking at that in a certain way, that sounds as if she's planning to become like Genji. Someone who would accept anything, throw away all of her emotions, and so on. (Genji = one of the world's worst role models) There's more to it than that, certainly, and maybe she's thinking that a happily ever after with one of her love interests could theoretically happen, but the way she phrased that does give me pause to think.

haguruma

2014-04-24, 08:14

If there is an award for the worst and most convenient for the plot characterisation, then I nominate Genji! I'm sure he's going to get it!
Well, it is not his position to judge his mistress' decision what to do with the household since he is only furniture. It's not like this was not foreshadowed more than enough.
But yes, Genji is a horrible human being for giving up on life. I think the problem is that he himself doesn't believe in anything getting better from this point onwards, so he will just serve as a tool for the person he screwed up, just like he served as a tool for the person he loved...

I also really like the hint about the golden butterflies, but I suddenly feel stupid for not thinking too deeply about them.
Yeah, the damn clocks were all over the place. I checked and the 30min rule actually is in place as far as I can see. It'd be kinda cool to go over the first 4 Episodes again and look out for these elements.

I think that, playing by her own rules, she would have to stick with Eva if she chose to kill everyone and keep the gold to herself.
But what doesn't make sense here is, this wouldn't be the story Sayo would write for her message bottles. She wrote Yasuda Sayo, the Golden Witch of Rokkenjima as the culprit of her tales in order to be found, tried and judged, either by the person she loved or a person who understands her. If she actually considered a story where somebody was to ursurp her plan...that wouldn't make much sense thematically.

There's more to it than that, certainly, and maybe she's thinking that a happily ever after with one of her love interests could theoretically happen, but the way she phrased that does give me pause to think.
I actually stumbled over a page I failed to translate
This seems to be the final page of the Confession-arc:
And if somehow I might have a chance of being forgiven...

Please grant me
A miracle of smiling with that certain person
when the seaguls cry.

This is the final message, left by the witch as a person.

It really paints a sad picture of a woman who got so caught up in her delusions that she became unable to think of anything else, she couldn't stand one more day without thinking of putting an end to this horrible family...and looking at her life that is really kinda tragic since she herself was the one who became unable to see things with love and she knew it.

Renall

2014-04-24, 08:22

At least that can be explained a bit better by the next line as Yasu being so nuts at this point that she thought everyone connected to the Ushiromiyas should just die.

I'm going to have to read that translation a bunch of times more. It's a bit hard for it to sink in. There's definitely a blurring of reality and the bottle stories going on there. She wrote her stories in a frenzied state, certainly, but how much of it she brought into reality or was capable of bringing into reality I don't know. She does sound villainous there.
It strikes me as an obvious parallel to Maria's "therapy" in ep4. Imagining killing the people who have wronged her, wringing out all the negative emotions, and maybe going a bit too far for the sake of trying to prevent the pain from settling in. She outright says (to paraphrase) "I'm imagining these things as if they were real." Maria did the same thing, but would she have actually murdered her mother? Ever? I doubt it.

Plus note she can't exactly come up with justifications for the people she loves most. She knows if she were capable of going through with this plan that she'd have to do it, but can she really be so cold as to kill Jessica and George? I mean maybe she thinks Maria is better off dead and maybe she thinks Battler wronged her by not returning, but what did those two ever do to her? She's already acknowledged previously that the fault in those instances was hers. If she's being honest with herself (and we know she's capable of it), she can't easily justify that. It's one thing to write about yourself as being capable of such an act, and quite another to actually do it. Particularly when you want someone to stop you.

Also, assuming the translation is accurate, we have a rather... curious set of lines here:
That is why each and every one of these bottles contains a confession of my sins.
Repentance for my sins that would not exist had I not written them down.
She appears to be saying that the sins she has committed are of imagining these events. This reminds me of that scene in the VN where Battler says she hasn't sinned in "this world" in response to Beatrice mentioning all the sins she's committed countless times. I think there was also some bit earlier in the manga about "a girl who imagined a tragedy" or something to that effect.

I mean, if she actually did what she believed she could do, it'd be odd to say her sins wouldn't have existed without this sequence. She could easily have decided to commit murder and then done so, and that would be the sin. Plus this part in the manga comes after all those previous parts about the BoOT and whatnot, so from a dramatic standpoint it really makes no sense to play up the depths of her despair and the extent of her planning and her desire to be stopped by Battler if the endgame is just "Yeah and then the adults killed everyone for money and Battler never even did anything."

Obviously Battler couldn't and didn't prevent the tragedy, but he must've done something, otherwise this entire section is a whole lot of hand-wringing and retreading of territory that we're already mostly aware of. If we don't see some of Battler's POV later I'll be right ticked about it.

haguruma

2014-04-24, 09:03

She appears to be saying that the sins she has committed are of imagining these events. This reminds me of that scene in the VN where Battler says she hasn't sinned in "this world" in response to Beatrice mentioning all the sins she's committed countless times. I think there was also some bit earlier in the manga about "a girl who imagined a tragedy" or something to that effect.
Yes, this line intrigued me as well and I was wondering how to translate it best.
It is vague even in the original Japanese and I think there are several ways to read these.
1) The most boring one: By writing them down she gave her plan a clear form that can be traced back later and her Golden Land can technically be destroyed. If she were just to make the bomb explode then "her crime" would be non-existent in a way as well.
2) The more likely one: Since she keeps claiming in this chapter that she went mad over writing these but at the same time couldn't stop anymore, it is quite likely that she blames herself for backing herself into this corner. If she hadn't imagined it again and again then her mindset would have never become like this.
3) The poetic one: She knows deep down that she is unable to commit these crimes and will likely fail or be foiled, but she still cannot back down and hopes that her sin might be discovered because it even comes into existence on more than paper.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-04-24, 17:27

Well, it is not his position to judge his mistress' decision what to do with the household since he is only furniture. It's not like this was not foreshadowed more than enough.

Yeah, there's lots of furniture angst piled up there, but what I'm getting at is... it's unnatural and highly questionable. This mindest is way too convenient. What made him think of himself that way? What exactly was his relationship with Kinzo in the first place? It looks as though Ryukishi forgot to mention anything about him in 7 entire Episodes and in the end came with 'oh, yeah, Kinzo and I are bffs, he saved my life once, good times, good times'.

But yes, Genji is a horrible human being for giving up on life. I think the problem is that he himself doesn't believe in anything getting better from this point onwards, so he will just serve as a tool for the person he screwed up, just like he served as a tool for the person he loved...

The worst thing is, he doesn't seem to be saying 'who am I to speak up to my master? Wardrobes don't talk'. What he seems to suggest is that it is Yasu's right to do all of this, and he's perfectly cool with it.

But what doesn't make sense here is, this wouldn't be the story Sayo would write for her message bottles. She wrote Yasuda Sayo, the Golden Witch of Rokkenjima as the culprit of her tales in order to be found, tried and judged, either by the person she loved or a person who understands her. If she actually considered a story where somebody was to ursurp her plan...that wouldn't make much sense thematically.

I don't think Sayo is the author of Banquet (I didn't really see anything in Confession suggesting it, actually). Plus it's sort of said that it is a forgery by Hachijo, and I think Beatrice says in EP8 that only two of her message bottles reached the shore, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

But putting that aside, having the epitaph solved and herself renduced to 'furniture' to whomever solves it is amongst the possible results the rulette may bring. Perhaps seeing that outcome as well is also important to understanding the depths of her madness and determination. Since she has come this far, she is willing to follow the rules to the very end.

Obviously Battler couldn't and didn't prevent the tragedy, but he must've done something, otherwise this entire section is a whole lot of hand-wringing and retreading of territory that we're already mostly aware of. If we don't see some of Battler's POV later I'll be right ticked about it.

I'd also really like to see that, but I doubt we are going to....

Aside from the fact that I am totally against the adults money-slaughter, Battler's account of the events is essential. Exactly how did he escape from the island? Doesn't it seem too convenient for him to be unable to recall anything about it? If we can trust the narrative of EP8, Yasu showed him to the underground passage and helped him escape, he must have had questions about it, so how did she respond?

I refuse to believe Battler just stood around while people died and then coincidentally found himself being the only survivor (much like Kinzo in the war...)

jjblue1

2014-04-24, 20:38

The part about the butterflies is interesting but doesn't make complete sense given what we saw in part 2. Rosa never really notices the butterflies till the very end before she dies, but they were there since early in the episode creeping up on her. RK07 mentions that this was a pretty important hint. So is this a revelation that EP2 Rosa wasn't really bribed but was an unwitting accomplice? Does being threatened, like in the Rosa+Battler Ougon story, count as being bribed?

Battler saw golden butterflies at 11:30 in Ep 2... meaning he was going to die at midnight.

uhm... when did Yasu write Banquet after finding out that Eva survived? I don't think she had much time for that until dying...

And I hope this is no "she accidently guessed right that Eva may be the only survivor". That would be a bit too much of a "coincidence", even for the Umineko scale.

And so we another point that makes the RandomStrangerIkuko theory retroactively less likely, although it was seemingly the most likely possibility until now...

The messages were tossen in the sea prior to Eva reaching Rokkenjima so... if she's the author of Banquet it's just a coincidence in it Eva survived... which in a way is a rather cruel destiny as she's left alone. Like for Sayo solving the epitaph took everything away from her.

Gohda got hired for a job on the island, what a bastard! He deserves to die for that! :twitch:

There's to wonder if actually there's more to Gohda's job than we know. Or was Gohda maybe blackmailing Natsuhi or something?

Because if it was just a job of course Gohda would want to get paid. The fact that getting personal gain here seems to be seen as negative makes me think there's more than what it seems. Maybe Gohda's true nature was revealed in a missing page and here we get a 'summary' that we can't really comprehend.

We know that originally Gohda should have had a relation with Natsuhi and that the plan was scrapped... but maybe not as completely as we think...

On the other side Yasu could be merely referring to all the times Gohda put her in a bad spot to take advantage of it and shine in Natsuhi's eyes.

Looking at that in a certain way, that sounds as if she's planning to become like Genji. Someone who would accept anything, throw away all of her emotions, and so on. (Genji = one of the world's worst role models) There's more to it than that, certainly, and maybe she's thinking that a happily ever after with one of her love interests could theoretically happen, but the way she phrased that does give me pause to think.

Well, she sounds like those people who're basically begging for something: "Please, do this and I'll be your slave." It sounds rather pitiful and desperate.

I also really like the hint about the golden butterflies, but I suddenly feel stupid for not thinking too deeply about them.

Well, I honestly don't like that rule much expecially because in Ep 2 it becomes: half a hour before dying even the point of view of the detective isn't objective anymore and he can see magic. I preferred for the scene in Ep 2 to be explained with "Battler was drunk, fell asleep and dreamt all that before dying" or "he gave up so he wasn't the detective anymore" than "I've decided to push him into a fantasy scene because in half a hour he'll be dead".
It's a matter of fact he sees golden butterflies half a hour before dying but how could we know his point of view wasn't reliable anymore? Especially when this doesn't happen in Ep 1 (VN version because the anime shows them...), Ep 3 & 4.

At least the EP8 manga says that none of people who discovered the First Twilight had any hand in murdering people or creating the locked room scenario. I still think that EP3 was not in the closest sense written by Yasu as a tale like Legend and Turn.
EP3 actually looks much more like a weird EP5'esque scenario. It is either Eva doing the killings and Yasu trying to make them look like her's in order to make Battler find his way to her, or it is Yasu doing the killings and using Eva as a cover-up. Both is kinda supported by the narrative, but especially EP3 doesn't really fit into the rules explained in Confession right now.

Since Rudolph and Kyrie don't die early on, are they accomplicees?
The witch illusion doesn't even come into existence
The epitaph is solved yet she does not stop

My solution for Ep 3 is that Eva (and Rosa) didn't solve the epitaph, Eva was bribed by handing them the solution to the epitaph. Rosa was alternatively bribed or followed Eva secretly, ergo she too didn't solve anything.

In Our confession Yasu had no problems showing the gold to Krauss and Natsuhi so it can be here she showed it to Eva and that's represented by 'young Eva' helping Eva solving the epitaph. 'Young Eva' claims she's not Eva and have no qualms killing Hideyoshi and George. My guess is that Sayo this time hid not behing the illusion of Beatrice but behind the illusion of Eva Beatrice.

I guess Rudolf and Kyrie could have been bribed into being accomplices. The same happens in Ep 4 where Kyrie is clearly an accomplice.

Of course I will share all that stuff. Also working on something else related to EP8.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Well, in that scene she is talking about how there are all these tricks (and the page-break implies that she mentions more on the pages we don't see) and she doesn't even know which ones to pick for each story. So if Ikuko actually found this message bottle "Confession of the Golden Witch" or it is something that "Battler" knew, then they could have used these tricks in their stories just as well.

Though we'll have to wait till more is revealed, since this would create a slight inconsistency with Battler/Tohya realizing the truth during EP5. Unless of course Ikuko is a real bitch and didn't even show him that confession when creating Banquet and Alliance.

I'm toying with the idea that Ikuko had confession (since she was on her table when Tohya starts remembering and faints) but didn't show it to him and just used it to create plots with Tohya as if they were her own.

I've been wondering if this can be represented by MetaErika who wanted to become the witch of truth and GM and that tried to do so by using Battler also while Battler was busy finding a way out of the logic error (which could be compared to Tohya finding a way through his memories?)

Maybe Ikuko wasn't as bad as Erika but if the whole thing is just symbolism it can work... I guess.

Alternatively it could be represented by Lambda who claimed she understood Beato's game but ended up making a loveless game.

And that is probably exactly what went wrong.
We see her practically breaking down in tears when writing about killing George and Jessica. She is so delusional about the idea that it would definitely be Battler who solves the epitaph...
But I think the biggest mistake she made was, thinking that the person arriving at the underground VIP room would definitely turn off the bomb and let everybody survive. That was the biggest inconsistency in her own reasoning.

Well, turning off a bomb would be the most logic thing to do... hadn't dead people be involved and the dying started due to an incident and then escalated.

Honestly I think the mistake was to write Beatrice's letter in such way. She wanted it to help and yet it likely does the opposite.
Battler isn't interested in the gold that much so, beyond pocking at it for the fun of it, he likely didn't pay much attention to the epitaph.
Once the letter arrives the relatives make a horrible show of themselves and that's what takes away most of his focus.
When the murders start he has more important things in his mind than the epitaph.

In fact Battler solves the epitaph (or better is made to solve it but we don't know how much of the solution come from him and how much was suggested to him) the time in which the letter doesn't arrive because the atmosphere is more relaxed and there's someone with whom to play at solving it. Still he's having fun at playing with the epitaph until he realizes the implications of solving it.

Yasu wanted Battler to solve the epitaph but basically challenged him in the wrong way. At least that's what happens in the games.
In Prime it might be Battler too solved the epitaph only... after the adults solved it.

Well, it is not his position to judge his mistress' decision what to do with the household since he is only furniture. It's not like this was not foreshadowed more than enough.
But yes, Genji is a horrible human being for giving up on life. I think the problem is that he himself doesn't believe in anything getting better from this point onwards, so he will just serve as a tool for the person he screwed up, just like he served as a tool for the person he loved...

That's not just he gave up on life. Apparently they claimed they wanted Sayo to be happy. She's not. Actually I think it would be hard for her to be after they told her the truth in such a nice way but what's worse is it seems no one is helping her to cope.

She can't take it anymore and she tells Genji and all he does is telling her 'ok, go on'? We know she wanted to be stopped. As older and wiser and responsible for the situation, shouldn't he have tried to help his mistress instead than just calling himself out? Shouldn't he at least have tried to make her reason?

She was internally screaming for help, if he had done something, if he had given her hope, if he had given her emotional support maybe the pressure on her would have decreased and she would have changed her plans.

I actually stumbled over a page I failed to translate
This seems to be the final page of the Confession-arc:
And if somehow I might have a chance of being forgiven...

Please grant me
A miracle of smiling with that certain person
when the seaguls cry.

This is the final message, left by the witch as a person.

It really paints a sad picture of a woman who got so caught up in her delusions that she became unable to think of anything else, she couldn't stand one more day without thinking of putting an end to this horrible family...and looking at her life that is really kinda tragic since she herself was the one who became unable to see things with love and she knew it.

Thank you for translating this also!

It strikes me as an obvious parallel to Maria's "therapy" in ep4. Imagining killing the people who have wronged her, wringing out all the negative emotions, and maybe going a bit too far for the sake of trying to prevent the pain from settling in. She outright says (to paraphrase) "I'm imagining these things as if they were real." Maria did the same thing, but would she have actually murdered her mother? Ever? I doubt it.

Plus note she can't exactly come up with justifications for the people she loves most. She knows if she were capable of going through with this plan that she'd have to do it, but can she really be so cold as to kill Jessica and George? I mean maybe she thinks Maria is better off dead and maybe she thinks Battler wronged her by not returning, but what did those two ever do to her? She's already acknowledged previously that the fault in those instances was hers. If she's being honest with herself (and we know she's capable of it), she can't easily justify that. It's one thing to write about yourself as being capable of such an act, and quite another to actually do it. Particularly when you want someone to stop you.

Personally I don't think she had the will to kill. She would break before doing it and, if she were to manage it, it would be more by accident, because she tried, failed but then someone jumped on her while she was still holding the gun and the gun ended up shooting by mistake.

If she starts crying while writing of killing people it's really hard to assume she would manage to stay emotionless while doing it. Especially in Ep 2 where Jessica is killed pretty early on.

Also, assuming the translation is accurate, we have a rather... curious set of lines here:

She appears to be saying that the sins she has committed are of imagining these events. This reminds me of that scene in the VN where Battler says she hasn't sinned in "this world" in response to Beatrice mentioning all the sins she's committed countless times. I think there was also some bit earlier in the manga about "a girl who imagined a tragedy" or something to that effect.

I mean, if she actually did what she believed she could do, it'd be odd to say her sins wouldn't have existed without this sequence. She could easily have decided to commit murder and then done so, and that would be the sin. Plus this part in the manga comes after all those previous parts about the BoOT and whatnot, so from a dramatic standpoint it really makes no sense to play up the depths of her despair and the extent of her planning and her desire to be stopped by Battler if the endgame is just "Yeah and then the adults killed everyone for money and Battler never even did anything."

Obviously Battler couldn't and didn't prevent the tragedy, but he must've done something, otherwise this entire section is a whole lot of hand-wringing and retreading of territory that we're already mostly aware of. If we don't see some of Battler's POV later I'll be right ticked about it.

I wonder if the whole part about the sin ties in with her religious beliefs and the fact that even planning to sin for many religions is a sin.

By following Yasu's mindset it could be that she viewed the tragedy that resulted as a consequence of her own sins even if in the end she did nothing and wouldn't have managed to do nothing.

She's pretty stressing on how Battler is sinning by not remembering his 'promise' (by the way in the translation of Ep 7 the word "promise" is never mentioned even if there's to say he told her with certain that he woul come back next year so maybe this was enough for her) and how this sin is the cause of everything so maybe she judged with equal severity the fact she fantasized over committing a crime.

Yeah, there's lots of furniture angst piled up there, but what I'm getting at is... it's unnatural and highly questionable. This mindest is way too convenient. What made him think of himself that way? What exactly was his relationship with Kinzo in the first place? It looks as though Ryukishi forgot to mention anything about him in 7 entire Episodes and in the end came with 'oh, yeah, Kinzo and I are bffs, he saved my life once, good times, good times'.

Yes, Genji would need some more development. I can understand he maybe was traumatized by what happened prior to Kinzo saving him and that make him feel so indebted to Kinzo but we see that he's capable of hiding Yasu and claiming he wants her happy to then... bow down completely to her wills? Put safe bullets in the guns and break down the explosive mechanism at least Genji if you haven't the guts to talk to her!
Ask someone to help her!

No, really, Genji's character development is poor so maybe his actions make sense but I can't see it very well.

I'd also really like to see that, but I doubt we are going to....

Aside from the fact that I am totally against the adults money-slaughter, Battler's account of the events is essential. Exactly how did he escape from the island? Doesn't it seem too convenient for him to be unable to recall anything about it? If we can trust the narrative of EP8, Yasu showed him to the underground passage and helped him escape, he must have had questions about it, so how did she respond?

I refuse to believe Battler just stood around while people died and then coincidentally found himself being the only survivor (much like Kinzo in the war...)

There's the serious possibility that Tohya actually knows something but like MetaBattler he doesn't want to tell Ange. The scene of Battler and Eva closing the door in Ep 8 was supposed to mean they basically closed the catbox which means Battler must have done something actively. If he just forgot due to a car incident it's not really like he did something but that something was done to him.

jjblue1

2014-04-24, 21:00

This article (http://www49.atwiki.jp/aniwotawiki/pages/3679.html?PHPSESSID=bff88639e0ad111323937210af9d6b 15&flag_mobilex=1) was updated with info about the new chap but from what can I read from google translate it doesn't seem to add anything we didn't know already...

Renall

2014-04-24, 23:19

There's the serious possibility that Tohya actually knows something but like MetaBattler he doesn't want to tell Ange. The scene of Battler and Eva closing the door in Ep 8 was supposed to mean they basically closed the catbox which means Battler must have done something actively. If he just forgot due to a car incident it's not really like he did something but that something was done to him.
The question of the symbolism is twofold. First: Did Battler and Eva both do something to cover up what happened, or did they both just remain silent so their knowledge would be lost to the world? Second: Did they do whatever they did independent of one another, or in collusion?

These are really important questions and we just don't know! The way it's set up, it could kinda go either way. Eva might or might not have known Battler was alive. Battler might or might not have made a conscious decision regarding his role in things. After all, Tohya doesn't necessarily know what Battler intended to do with whatever knowledge he had late on the 5th or early on the 6th of October, and in the time thereafter leading up to the state he was in when he became Tohya.

Although it seems probable that Eva must have consciously avoided some detail if she knew about Battler's survival. In fact, if the two had contact with one another on the 6th I'd almost have to think they had to be in collusion, but I don't know quite why Battler wouldn't want to be found. If they split up or if Battler was worried Eva would accuse him of something it'd make sense that way, but then it'd mean they each independently decided not to say anything at the least.

haguruma

2014-04-25, 03:23

The worst thing is, he doesn't seem to be saying 'who am I to speak up to my master? Wardrobes don't talk'. What he seems to suggest is that it is Yasu's right to do all of this, and he's perfectly cool with it.
Well, from the perspective of a perfect servant (which Genji is told to be aspiring to) it IS her right to do it, if not even her duty. That's why I added my comment on the usage of the word shinjuu in the original text. I think many people would be surprised at how prevelant a positivism on shinjuu still is in certain circles and especially during the 80s it sometimes happened for failing patriarchs to decide that it is better to kill their whole family then for them to live in shame and debts.

In medieval Japan it was actually so prominent and positively regarded (some forms of Buddhism told that you would be able to enter a Pure Land by committing suicide) and religion taught that people who loved each other and died together would be together in the next world as well.
This thinking was strong enough that it had to be outlawed in the 18th century.

I'm not saying anything like, "Japan regards suicide as great," but in an environment like Rokkenjima, between a person like Sayo and Genji, Genji would probably regard her decision as something noble.

There's to wonder if actually there's more to Gohda's job than we know. Or was Gohda maybe blackmailing Natsuhi or something
Well, at least the article you linked says a little more about it, so I assume it's in the missing pages:
Gohda quit his previous jobs because of sexual relations with women. So Sayo is assuming that his reason for flirting with Natsuhi constantly is in order to get personal gain out of this situation. And for her it seemed clear that if you found one sin, then others would just continue to appear over time...
Well, her personal experience kinda taught her that :uhoh:
- "Btw honey, you might have been a boy. Oh...and you're an incest baby...and you're the aunt of your boyfriend...and your father might have raped your mother...and planned to kill all people here...and we might have set you up...was that all Kumasawa?! I think I'm forgetting something..."

My solution for Ep 3 is that Eva (and Rosa) didn't solve the epitaph, Eva was bribed by handing them the solution to the epitaph. Rosa was alternatively bribed or followed Eva secretly, ergo she too didn't solve anything.
BUT, if that is the case, why did she hand Eva the ring of headship? It is clearly a part of the narrative that Eva succeeded the headship of the house and became the next Golden Witch from 1986 to 1998...for that she must have solved the epitaph or it wouldn't go according to Sayo's rules.

Renall

2014-04-25, 08:11

I'm not saying anything like, "Japan regards suicide as great," but in an environment like Rokkenjima, between a person like Sayo and Genji, Genji would probably regard her decision as something noble.
He's still a monster by the morals of the story, though, so it really doesn't matter. There's absolutely no equivocation over whether what she's doing is actually wrong, it totally is and she knows it and she wants it to not happen. Genji's acceptance of it for any reason is just downright evil. I'm not even passing this judgment, the story is... more or less. It seems to be soft-gloving his responsibility, although part of me thinks it's because Genji became the plot hole scapegoat and has to basically be an evil robot for some of the story fixes to make sense.

jjblue1

2014-04-25, 09:34

The question of the symbolism is twofold. First: Did Battler and Eva both do something to cover up what happened, or did they both just remain silent so their knowledge would be lost to the world? Second: Did they do whatever they did independent of one another, or in collusion?

These are really important questions and we just don't know! The way it's set up, it could kinda go either way. Eva might or might not have known Battler was alive. Battler might or might not have made a conscious decision regarding his role in things. After all, Tohya doesn't necessarily know what Battler intended to do with whatever knowledge he had late on the 5th or early on the 6th of October, and in the time thereafter leading up to the state he was in when he became Tohya.

Although it seems probable that Eva must have consciously avoided some detail if she knew about Battler's survival. In fact, if the two had contact with one another on the 6th I'd almost have to think they had to be in collusion, but I don't know quite why Battler wouldn't want to be found. If they split up or if Battler was worried Eva would accuse him of something it'd make sense that way, but then it'd mean they each independently decided not to say anything at the least.

Well, one of the two didn't just remained silent, he or she also covered up everything by turning on the bomb... or by letting it on the on position.
If Ep 7 Teaparty is based on the info given by the diary it was Eva. Battler might have agreed/might be forced to agree to it as he too tried to escape.

I rechecked the truth in Eva's diary and in it we can see that not just Battler's but also Beato and Maria's fate isn't depicted (and okay, the servants' but I think the scene with the bleeding dining room is supposed to stand for them being dead).

Another interesting thing is that facts are either not depicted in the order Eva saw them for the shock value of seeing Rudolf and Kyrie as the culprits smirking cruelly (which can be) or Eva didn't witness them in the order suggested by the Teaparty. After the massacre in the golden room we've George's death body, the dining room smeared with blood, Jessica's dead body then Rudolf sitting out of the chapel and then Kyrie apparently leaving the main house.

As they grin we see both of them are dirtied in blood which can work for Kyrie but not so much for Rudolf as he stood under the rain who should have washed it away and also likely didn't went so close to George that blood should have sprayed on him.

So I wonder how much is exactly in the diary and how much is Ange's interpretation of it.

I'm not saying anything like, "Japan regards suicide as great," but in an environment like Rokkenjima, between a person like Sayo and Genji, Genji would probably regard her decision as something noble.

While I sort of think to get what you mean somehow the setting for me doesn't work up so well that I can wave it off as just that.

If I turn the chessboard over I see contraddictions all the way in Genji's behaviour. He claims he wants to protect Lion and make him grow happy and yet he basically not only forced Sayo in an environment even more miserable than the one of the other Fukuin children and exposed her at the risk of Kinzo recognizing her as Beatrice's reincarnation but not as Lion in disguise but didn't help her to grow as an happy, stable person at all. He didn't protect her, nor he support her. He mostly washed his hands clean of her and set up things so as to protect Kinzo from sinning... or if he had to sin again with Sayo from knowing he sinned with his own child all over again.

When she starts to show problem in regard to her gender identity which are pretty obvious no one helps her to cope, they just cover up for her.

When Kinzo is about to die Genji sets up a farce in order to please KINZO, to absolve KINZO, to let KINZO die in peace.

He doesn't explain things to Sayo, he doesn't tell the truth to her and then asks her if she wants to meet Kinzo regardless and forgive him and all the stuffs. No, he forces her on a dress, in front of Kinzo, while she's utterly confuse and feeling scared and guilty as she evidently wasn't sure she was allowed to discover the gold and have her deal with all that situation that make her feel as if she has to call Kinzo "father" when she can't see him as such just to please him because she feels some pity for him as he seems miserable is totally disregarding her feelings and her wishes.

She wanted a family. She gets money in form of gold. She's basically paid to act that role.

It doesn't end here. After the farce is finished Genji acts all understanding with Kinzo, claiming he had atoned when actually... who's Genji to judge? And what Kinzo did to atone to Sayo apart from giving her some money?... and Genji does so in front of Sayo.

Then he proceed to tell her the full truth over which was Kinzo's sin whom she had unknowingly helped to feel free of. Kinzo died more or less happy. She's left to live in a miserable state and they knew she was miserable and didn't help her at all.

Genji was way more emotionally supportive of Kinzo, way more caring, way more ACTIVE than he is with Sayo, whose life he had basically screwed up more than Kinzo could have done. While Jessica and George might have missed the signs Sayo was desperate those signs had been spelled out loud for Genji (and Kumasawa and Nanjo) to hear and they... pretended not to.

They didn't support her as servants, they washed their hands clean of her problems.

My only hope of redemption for Genji is that actually he pretended to agree with Sayo's plan but then tattled out the solution of the epitaph to either the adults or the cousins in hope this would stop her and they would help her.

If it's the adults his plan didn't work but maybe he couldn't predict it, if it was the cousins, he did it too late but again he couldn't predict it but, at least, he did something.

Otherwise for me he washed his hands clean of her and no matter how he dresses this up, he didn't give a damn about that poor girl and it was all about Kinzo and himself.

Well, at least the article you linked says a little more about it, so I assume it's in the missing pages:
Gohda quit his previous jobs because of sexual relations with women. So Sayo is assuming that his reason for flirting with Natsuhi constantly is in order to get personal gain out of this situation. And for her it seemed clear that if you found one sin, then others would just continue to appear over time...
Well, her personal experience kinda taught her that :uhoh:
- "Btw honey, you might have been a boy. Oh...and you're an incest baby...and you're the aunt of your boyfriend...and your father might have raped your mother...and planned to kill all people here...and we might have set you up...was that all Kumasawa?! I think I'm forgetting something..."

Well, that's interesting even if unexpected. I thought Gohda left his previous work for disagrements with the head chef as the tip said, not because he slept around.

BUT, if that is the case, why did she hand Eva the ring of headship? It is clearly a part of the narrative that Eva succeeded the headship of the house and became the next Golden Witch from 1986 to 1998...for that she must have solved the epitaph or it wouldn't go according to Sayo's rules.

The ring of headship was handed to Battler as well in Ep 5 and in Ep 5 also we see that Battler succeeded the headship of the house. So it can be that the ring was handed along with the solution of the epitaph. We know that in Ep 2 Rosa too tried to escape from the island but was late. Eva wasn't but it's possible that Banquet's first version, if it was written by Sayo, ended with Eva leaving Battler supposedly dead and the extra about Eva escaping to Kuwadorian was an addition by Tohya (or Ikuko or both) as the narrative allowed it and it would fit with reality.

Banquet was released as Itokuko's work so even if we assume Banquet was originally written by Sayo, Tohya (or Ikuko or both) might have changed stuffs so as to make it fit with Prime.

In this setting Sayo is still the killer but Eva took "advantage" of it to become the new Ushiromiya head. By doing this however she inherited the blame for Sayo's crime and the title of golden witch.

Though of course, to understand better how Banquet and Alliance came to be I guess we'll need more manga info.

Dr. Casey

2014-04-27, 09:20

I've the feeling that even in their past Kinzo and Genji weren't that nice. Probably they weren't as bad as they'll be as adults but as youths they were probably closer to Rudolf (who did money in illegal ways even prior to getting married but wasn't as bad as he'll become later) than to... let's say Battler or George.

Growing up in the wrong environments probably pushed everything downhill so that Kinzo wouldn't stop in front of nothing and Genji basically would let him do whatever he wanted.

Kinzo and Genji being unremarkable petty crooks during their youth's an interesting idea. That goes along with my mental image of the two of them being nowhere near as tainted as young men as they grow to become as old ones, while being more consistent with their overall characterization than my original interpretation of "Kinzo used to be an angel as pure as the driven snow, before suddenly developing a criminal streak during middle age."

And for everything you posted about Genji being infinitely supportive of Kinzo while severely neglecting Yasu, that's something I find fascinating about the older characters (Kinzo, Genji, Nanjo) and something that contributes a decent amount to Umineko's charm, incidentally - the group gives off a rather strong feeling of being insular, though some members of the group are worse than others (I won't count Kumasawa here since she's a social butterfly that's taken plenty of interest in the younger generation and is in no way stuck in the past). Kinzo's by far the worst offender, given the way he's notoriously bad for playing favorites. Kinzo has his very small group of people that he cares about and to whom his loyalty and affection knows no bounds, but anyone outside those chosen few who received the Kinzo Seal of Approval can go kill themselves for all he cares. With the exception of Lion, the only people Kinzo cares about much are those he met when he was young or fairly young - Genji, Beatrice, Nanjo. Unless Kinzo met you in the 1940s or before, he don't give a fuck about you. I know I'm rambling here because I'm not very well-rested, but I did always find it an intriguing character trait somehow how Kinzo's so incredibly stuck in the past. The 'rebirth' he went through in World War II could be considered short-lived in a way, since he spent the rest of his existence mired in nostalgia for the years of 1944 through 1948.

On that note, does Kinzo ever comment on Kumasawa in any way, or does the narrative ever give any insight into their relationship or what Kinzo thinks of her? To my memory the subject is never broached at all, but Umineko isn't exactly a short story so I might be forgetting something.

haguruma

2014-04-27, 14:05

Kinzo and Genji being unremarkable petty crooks during their youth's an interesting idea.
Was it brought up so far that the manga actually ascertains that picture? I don't remember. Kinzo said that in their youth they were both sons of rich families and used to get themselves and other people into a lot of trouble. He describes Genji as pretty good at scamming people and even Kinzo himself constantly fell for his schemes (yet couldn't stay angry at him)...kinda sounds like that power-dynamic didn't change a lick either :heh:

I think that from their early days on they've lived in an environment that made them care too few about the people around them. Both rich, both good at being on the right people's side...Genji's family was just too stupid to notice that in an uprising it might not be the best idea to hold on to your fortune that you amassed by working with the government :rolleyes:

On that note, does Kinzo ever comment on Kumasawa in any way, or does the narrative ever give any insight into their relationship or what Kinzo thinks of her? To my memory the subject is never broached at all, but Umineko isn't exactly a short story so I might be forgetting something.
The narrative actually gives us close to nothing but it kinda makes me wonder whether she wasn't "the wandering priest" who built the shrine on Rokkenjima to ward off the evil spirits...or better if she was the one responsible for being kind of the "ghost story press department" in order to keep people from digging too far.
We can assume, by her love of fish and what indirect info we get from and about her son, that she might be from a fishing family and we know it was the fishers who started the legends about Akujikijima.
I do really wonder if Ryukishi ever planned to do much with her, except make her one of the co-conspirators.

jjblue1

2014-04-27, 15:17

Was it brought up so far that the manga actually ascertains that picture? I don't remember. Kinzo said that in their youth they were both sons of rich families and used to get themselves and other people into a lot of trouble. He describes Genji as pretty good at scamming people and even Kinzo himself constantly fell for his schemes (yet couldn't stay angry at him)...kinda sounds like that power-dynamic didn't change a lick either :heh:

I think that from their early days on they've lived in an environment that made them care too few about the people around them. Both rich, both good at being on the right people's side...Genji's family was just too stupid to notice that in an uprising it might not be the best idea to hold on to your fortune that you amassed by working with the government :rolleyes:

Well, I'll say that's a vague description what we have but somehow I've the feelings the two of them definitely didn't start as little angels.

The narrative actually gives us close to nothing but it kinda makes me wonder whether she wasn't "the wandering priest" who built the shrine on Rokkenjima to ward off the evil spirits...or better if she was the one responsible for being kind of the "ghost story press department" in order to keep people from digging too far.
We can assume, by her love of fish and what indirect info we get from and about her son, that she might be from a fishing family and we know it was the fishers who started the legends about Akujikijima.
I do really wonder if Ryukishi ever planned to do much with her, except make her one of the co-conspirators.

Well, we know Kumasawa is good at lying and acting, that she was Kuwadorian Beato wet nurse, that despite often pretending to be ill the Ushiromiya never fired her and that she claimed she learnt about Kinzo's love story with Beatrice by Kinzo himself when he was drunk. It might be she didn't know exactly where was the gold as her son implied she was searching for it... which in a way is bad because she knows who Sayo is and how the gold should belong to her so... unless she planned to do it only for the fun of it, it meant she would have no qualms taking it from her.
She kept silent when Kuwadoran Beatrice was raised in ignorance and when Kinzo took advantage of her and we know that she would be willing to take part to a mystery murder game that would likely scare who doesn't know is a game a lot as well as cause considerable emotional pain just for money.

I think... there's the possibility Kinzo hired her knowing she would do what he asked of her without questions regardless of how bad it was and kept her as compensation for her services.

She's probably not this terrible person, more like a servant old style who just exist to obey but I think she's more loyal to money than to the master.

*sighs* The more things come up about Sayo's past the less I like Genji and Kumasawa so maybe my judgement is biased because lack of love.

haguruma

2014-04-27, 19:03

*sighs* The more things come up about Sayo's past the less I like Genji and Kumasawa so maybe my judgement is biased because lack of love.
Maybe it's my inner Bern or something but I honestly think it's rather us being biased because we have too much love. The stories made us doubt the adults but kinda made us like the servants, didn't they?

With Genji it was almost always depicted to be his strong side how loyal he was, how he was an admirable person for how he stuck with the family despite all the odds.
The same with Kumasawa being a sweet, old lady, always with a wonderful story on her lips to make people forget the stress, hiding behind corners because she is weak but always feeling all the sadness of people suffering...even her creepy stories were mostly written off as her having fun.

We keep ourselves from even considering that these two might be bad people...and I think the authors within the story are often doing the same. Sayo was raised by those two and they might even be nice at times, but deep down they have serious dark sides.
Just look at Kumasawa in EP2 and how she is getting a major fix out of having that ghost story conversation with Jessica, about the legends and the unexpected visitor appearing (and her so obviously not talking about Battler).

Renall

2014-04-29, 20:54

I always figured the reason Kumasawa couldn't get fired is because she essentially had blackmail dirt on Kinzo. Even if she never made any sort of direct threat on that, she kinda knows about his hidden lovechild and all. Kinzo and Genji would have to be pretty dumb (well, dumber than they apparently already are) to tick her off.

jjblue1

2014-04-30, 17:10

Maybe it's my inner Bern or something but I honestly think it's rather us being biased because we have too much love. The stories made us doubt the adults but kinda made us like the servants, didn't they?

With Genji it was almost always depicted to be his strong side how loyal he was, how he was an admirable person for how he stuck with the family despite all the odds.
The same with Kumasawa being a sweet, old lady, always with a wonderful story on her lips to make people forget the stress, hiding behind corners because she is weak but always feeling all the sadness of people suffering...even her creepy stories were mostly written off as her having fun.

We keep ourselves from even considering that these two might be bad people...and I think the authors within the story are often doing the same. Sayo was raised by those two and they might even be nice at times, but deep down they have serious dark sides.
Just look at Kumasawa in EP2 and how she is getting a major fix out of having that ghost story conversation with Jessica, about the legends and the unexpected visitor appearing (and her so obviously not talking about Battler).

Well, I can't really say I liked the servants but at first I didn't thought they were that bad. But then the more I learn about them and the more I think about them the more I'm disgusted. And ironically this applies more to Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo than to Gohda who yes, in the beginning is not depicted in a favourable light but all considered he's not there claiming he cares about Shannon or Kanon or the Ushiromiya.

Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo, who claims they care for Sayo, who's basically considered blindly trusted and that saw most of the family grow up... and that instead don't really care about the family not even in the limits of normal decency... well, that's pretty bad in my books.

Kumasawa will accept to be paid to play a 'prank' in which not only she madly scared people by letting them think there's a murderer around but also causes them quite a lot of grief by making them think their family is dead. That's not a prank, that's cruel. And I won't go how she cared about Sayo and Beatrice only the bare minimum necessary. Sayo saw it as a lot but that's only because she had nothing else.

Nanjo is even worse as he was bribed for much more serious things. Hiding Beatrice (which could be seen as betrayal for his country), hiding Kinzo's incest and possible rape of his daughter (I'm not sure if rape is technically the right word because I fear in the end she was manipulated into saying 'yes'... even if she wanted to say 'no' as Kinzo likely took advantage of her ignorance and obedience), hiding a child (which basically is kidnapping) and taking part to covering up a crime as he must know people are dead for real.
And I don't know if the plot for Forgery of Purple truth was planned by Ryukishi but if that's the case this mean for money he would have no problems killing everyone.

Genji is the top of the list. Basically he claimed to care for Kinzo and Sayo but used Sayo to protect Kinzo from himself and to please him in his final moments, condemned her to a rather unpleasant life and when she claimed she was suicidal he washed his hands clean of her problems as he didn't care about living any longer and, oh, too bad for everyone else but he's totally cool with her killing everyone.

*sigh* Gohda can be unpleasant with Shannon and Kanon because he feels superior to them but at least he doesn't claim affection for anyone in the family. He's there for a job, if he'll get better paid he'll accept to make another and I don't even think he thought of doing something illegal (though if that was a prank I would sue him for giving me psychological damage... two days believeing I've a serial killer going around and people dropping dead around me won't help me sleep well the night)

I always figured the reason Kumasawa couldn't get fired is because she essentially had blackmail dirt on Kinzo. Even if she never made any sort of direct threat on that, she kinda knows about his hidden lovechild and all. Kinzo and Genji would have to be pretty dumb (well, dumber than they apparently already are) to tick her off.

Yes, I fear so. And the same probably apply to Natsuhi and Krauss because she knows Kinzo is dead. So even if I think Natsuhi doesn't love her much she kept her. Interesting enough in Ep 1 Eva seemed to dislike her but it was never explained why.
However we see that Kumasawa seems to have the habit to spy or eavesdrop conversations. Maybe she was prone to blackmail the family members and Eva hated this? Though Rosa seems to have a nice relationship with her... or else is she trying to bribe her with tea? LOL actually in the tea box she gave Kumasawa there was lot of blackmailing money to shut Kumasawa's mouth on some secret about Rosa that the woman knew...

haguruma

2014-05-03, 04:36

Sadly I haven't yet gotten my hands on part 1 of CotGW since 2000Yen is a little expensive for my taste (especially since it's only about 40 pages), but at least I have part 2 and 3 complete and will leave you with the translation of both chapters for now. We'll see what more I can do later :heh:

Confession of the Golden Witch (2)
And despair plunged this heart so very deep into darkness...
Beatrice: Kihihi...
A human seen as a witch will never gain happiness. Didn't you even know that, furnituuure?
Your tears are an apperitif to me! This pain of love is the most delicate hors d'oeuvre!
p.2
Kanon: Begone, witch!
Don't even come near my sister!
Sis...
We are and will be furniture...
There cannot be love between people and furniture! You have to tell this to Master George as well!
You must not get any closer to people than you already are...! To furniture...there is only one way to properly live as furniture...!
Shannon: Kanon...
But...I am...
Sayo: Work...
It's time to work...
p.3
Sayo: ..."One is the ressurection of all the souls of the dead"
"One is the ressurection of even the love once lost"
"Put the witch to eternal rest"...
Nothing like that happens...now it's just about returning the mechanism to it's original shape so that the gold stays hidden...
“So you get four treasures, right?!“
...what a joke
I lost everything...
in exchange for that gold.......
p.4
I spent my days like before, without ever any change
The fact that I solved the epitaph and succeded the headship
even the circumstances of my own birth, I told to nobody
Even Genji and the others order me around in the same harsh tone as before
I was afraid of laying it out in the open
If I spoke it out loud, it would come rushing in with so much more actuality, how miserable I am
And the feeling of guilt, for not revealing it to the person I held fond feelings for, clung unto me all the time
No matter how much gold there was, there were no means for me to be saved from my cursed fate
The only thing left was to push it all deeper and deeper into my heart
p.5
The death of the Master
was as if the witch within me had cast her magic
through a secret agreement it all became concealed
Sir Krauss took on exorbitant loans
that is why they had to push the question of the inheritance further away, they said
Kanon:
What an arrogant woman
She talks of protecting honor, but the only thing she cares about is her own appearance! That scum, they were all to ready to deny our honorable head a proper funeral!
The days krept by without change
p.6
Beatrice:
It's a just reward for Kinzo who held me prisoner as well!
And Natsuhi, she made you fall off that cliff...
My world was turned into a negative image of itself on that day
Jessica:
Shannon, isn't the stench coming from Grandpa's study lately the worst?
Honestly, what is he researching there?!
Shannon:
Lately the Master is putting all his efforts into this...and since he has a lot of very bad days, I think it is better if you don't go to his study anymore, Milady...
Sayo's thoughts:
I will have to discuss the inspection of the freezer and an increase of preservatives with Genji...
p.7
Genji:
Yes...let us propose the acquisition of a new freezer to Madam
Shannon:
Genji...
Shannon:
In the underground...where did all these skeletons come from?
Genji:
Once, Rokkenjima had been a base for the Japanese army. I heard there was a mass killing...between the Japanese soldiers and the people who came on the Italian submarine that had also brought the first Lady Beatrice here.
Shannon:
The bones...
Shannon:
They are all gathered in one room
p.8
Shannon:
There they were piled up
cluttered
unorganized
those skeletons wearing Italian and Japanese uniforms
all thrown on a heap
as if dumped on a garbage pile

Why did the master leave his comrades like this, without even a proper burial?
Why did he built his mansion on this island, as if to hide them all?!
The master...he killed them all, didn't he?!
To monopolize Beatrice and the gold...

p.9
Shannon: Maybe he carried them here after killing them
or...
I...
In this body...
flows...
this dirty blood...
It was at that point when–
p.10
Jessica:
Tell me already, what is there between you and George?
Shannon:
Between...
Jessica:
You seemed to hit it off quite well the last time he was on the island!
*Are you two going steady?*
Did you go on a date?
Shannon: No...going steady would be....
He just helped me with some shopping and
It wasn't really a date...
Jessica: Shut up! It was a date, I tell you!!
And now you keep saying you're not going steady?!
He's your boyfriend! And you're his girlfriend!!
Shannon: I don't know about...being a girlfriend...
p.11
Jessica: Really?! So you didn't try to get ahead first?? We promised we would get boyfriends at the same time!
Shannon: Mi...milady
Jessica: ...
Hey...
Shannon...
Shannon: Yes?
Jessica: Among the servants...
There's this boy called Kanon...am I right?
Are you...close?
Shannon: ....eh?
p.12
Jessica:
Kanon, does he...
have a girlfriend or something?
I was getting dizy
of joy for being approached with such favor
Shannon:
Milady...have you ever talked to Kanon?
Jessica:
Just a little bit! But he doesn't seem like he wants to talk to me!
For Kanon, who was this lump of all the ugliness inside of me
For him who was the opportunity for a life as a boy,
For him to have somebody approach him with such favor.
Jessica:
He always seems so lonely, looking into the distance...so I wondered...
Ah...
When I say wondered, I don't mean like like-liking him...
But, you know...if I speak to him more...maybe I can cheer him up a little...
p.13
It felt almost as if he had been allowed to live.
At the same time
I was shuddering in disgust
p.14
towards the genes of Ushiromiya, deep deep within myself.
Shannon:
I do not think that Kanon has a girlfriend.
Jessica:
Really?!
Shannon:
Well...no...ehm...
He always keeps himself shut off
but I think he would feel joy at being talked to by Mylady.
Towards the blood of Kinzo flowing within me, feeling joy because of this favor.
The only people who make me feel needed
are my bloodrelatives.
p.15
The only thing changing on were the days and months, while I kept silent
And the feelings of those two only deepened more
p.16
Jessica:
Listen to that if you feel down!
It's a mix-tape with my recomendations!
Listen to it if you like!
George:
I get to know so many new emotions, just by being with you
You make a gentle wind breeze through my heart
Shannon...I am so happy to have met you
For someone like me, who is living by denying themselves
p.17
George:
Thank you for being born
the raw feeling of "being loved" or "it being alright to live" was more bliss than I ever knew. Will anybody be able to understand that?
George:
Wha...? I wasn't planning to make you cry...
And that was what
swayed my resolve of having to bare the truth to them
p.18
That is why I felt a little relieved
when he was talking about staying a night on our trip
I was so sure that on an occasion like this, even a weakling like me would be able to overcome the fear
I cast all my wishes on this sliver of hope that if George truly loved me, he would accept me even if he learned the truth...
But my resolve was in vain, that chance did not come about...
Jessica:
Wha...separate rooms?!
Shannon:
Mi...milady
And Sir George suddenly brought up talks of getting engaged
Shannon:
What should I do...
I can't trick him any longer...
I have to tell Sir George the truth as fast as possible...
p.19
Sir George would surely be able to accept me...!
Beatrice:
AREN'T THAT SWEET WORDS, FURNITUUUUuuuuUURE?!
LOVE MEANS LUST AND CAN ONLY BE MEASURED BY TWO BODIES LYING TOGETHER!
GEORGE WILL DESPAIR
AS SOON AS HE KNOW ABOUT YOUR BIRTH AND YOUR BODYYYIiiii!!
p.20
Beatrice:
WHY ARE YOU PRETENDING TO BE RIGHT FOR GEORGE WHEN YOU CAN'T EVEN FULFILL HIS DREAM?!
George:
A good life, sorrounded by all our children and grandchildren....
I want a future like that with you
Beatrice:
YOU ARE SINFULL JUST FOR IMAGINING YOURSELF AND HIM TOGETHER
Shannon:
But George...he is sincere...
Our love it...will not be destroyed...
by something...like that...
Beatrice:
QUITE JABBERING THAT NONSENSE!
IT IS BECAUSE GEORGE IS SINCERE!
IT WILL PUT OUT ALL HIS LOVE FOR SOMEONE LIKE YOU WHO KEPT LYING TO HIM, EXPLOITING HIM WITH A FRUITLESS LOVE!
THERE ARE COUNTLESS REPLACEMENTS FOR YOU!
THERE IS NO NEED FOR HIM TO CHOOSE YOU!!
p.21
Shannon:
Bu...but I
I wanted to be loved by somebody!
And I wanted to love somebody!
It just accidentaly happened to be Sir George!
Is it a sin to even consider going through with my love for Sir George?!
Beatrice:
SO YOU WANT TO BE WITH THE SON OF YOUR SIBLINGS?
I HAVE TO CONGRATULATE YOU FOR FOLLOWING THE SAME PATH AS KINZO WHILE ALSO HATING HIS DEED THE MOST...!!
WHAT WILL YOU DO THEN? WILL YOU BE WITH GEORGE, HIDING THE KNOWLEDGE THAT THE FUTURE WILL ONLY HOLD DESPAIR IN STORE?
NOBODY WOULD EVER ALLOW FOR A PERSON WHO DOESN'T EVEN KNOW THEIR LINEAGE TO BECOME THE SPOUSE OF THE HEIR OF A COMPANY
OF COURSE, IF YOUR LINEAGE BECAME KNOWN THEN YOU MIGHT JUST HAVE TO FORCE GEORGE INTO A LIFE IN THE SHADOWS WITH YOU
p.22
Beatrice:
AND
SOMEBODY WITHOUT EVEN A COMPLETE SOUL
DOESN'T HAVE THE RIGHT FOR LOVING GEORGE ANYWAY
Kanon:
Because I...
Because I love Milady!
Shannon:
Kanon...
Kanon:
It was so painful, having to refuse her on that day!!
Jessica:
Kanon, please tell me...
Your real name...
Kanon:
It was so painful, having to hurt Milady like that
It was especially harsh because it was like denying myself, because I do like her...!
p.23
Kanon:
Milady shines like the sun and she makes even someone like me shine!!
When I am with her, I feel like I don't have to keep living like this anymore...!!!
Sis, you know that even if you get refused by Sir George, there will still be Lady Jessica, right?!
Milady Jessica is not a replacement for Sir George!!
Because I...I want to have love!!!
p.24
Beatrice:
Jessica?
That carefree girl who doesn't even know the true form of this family
Kanon:
Then why don't you step forth and reveal yourself, Golden Witch?!
With your gold all the problems of the household should be solved in no time!!
Beatrice:
My, my, it is not that easy a story
If I reveal my existence to them, those greedy hounds while show their true colours and start to fight
And the only thing remaining for you and Shannon will be ruin
Shannon:
stop...
STOP IT ALREADY...!!
It was the cursed blood of Ushiromiya that drove you to this point
And you are nothing but that
p.25
Whatever you may choose
there is no running from the pain
p.26
Choosing...
Whatever I choose this pain clings to me...
I have been driven to the far end of the wall...
I have to decide until the day when Sir George will give me that ring during the family conference
And that day will mark the border when my life will truly change without fail
p.27
(several letters addressed to Ushiromiya George lying about)
I have to tell Sir George
everything there is
Sir George will surely accept me
And then I will leave the island and cast away the me that is Kanon and the me that is Beato
I will live as Sayo. The life that I am longing for as Sayo.
But I will not be able to give George the bliss of being surrounded by people
Still, my wish isn't great so
p.28
If we share true love then we can surely be happy
George:
Don't come any closer
You make me wanna puke
You've been deceiving me all this time, haven't you?!
Did you think somebody like you could honestly marry me?
You're disgusting
Don't ever show up in front of me again
p.29
Sayo: .....
Having never experienced being accepted for who I truly am
it was exceedingly difficult to imagine and believe in a happy future
Sayo:
No...
George isn't like that...
He isn't like that...!
If I could just go eternally without telling him the truth, then I could be happy with him eternally, yet...
p.30
Sayo:
George...
You will...
You will accept me, right...?
I will believe in you...
So please...
While being haunted by nightmares, that day kept closing in day by day
Natsuhi:
That's all for the fine details
So from here on...
Shannon! Are you even listening?!
Shannon:
I am sorry, Madam!
Natsuhi:
I gave you the task to clean the hall
The family conference is soon, so keep yourself together
I already told you all but...
p.31
Natsuhi:
For the first time in 6 years, at this family conference, Battler will be attending again
Let us prepare with all our powers so that no embarassments occur on that day
p.32
Young Sayo:
Is it true that Battler is coming back?
p.33
Young Sayo:
Battler is coming home!
He really didn't forget his promise!
He's coming home!
He's coming to take me with him!
He finally appeared during my time of greatest hardship and will save me from this hell called fate!
This time I will finally become Battler's bride!
I love Battler most of everyone in the world!
Shannon:
Please go away...
I thought I had seperated myself from you, my emotion of first love
There is no way that Battler is coming to take me with him now...somebody who didn't even manage to send a letter
He probably doesn't even remember a childish promise like that...
Young Sayo:
You doubt our beloved Battler?
Shannon:
My current self is only thinking of George
Young Sayo:
Liar
p.34
Young Sayo:
I can hear you (written as "me") howling in pain
Beatrice:
KYHAHAHAHA
Let's stop being strong!
Aren't you the one who feels the most joy, for having expected Battler's return home more than anybody else?!
It comes just right. Why not make it an insurance for when George has broken up with you?
Or why not change to Battler right now?
Shannon (in Beatrice's voice):
OOH THAT'S RIGHT! NO MATTER WHO YOU CHOOSE
YOU HAVE THAT FILTHY BODY THAT DOESN'T ALLOW YOU TO CONNECT WITH ANYBODY
I have been a squirming, stupid spider, caught in it's own web
p.35
I was just running around confused, trying to escape my fate
Young Battler: I will come on a white horse for you
Young Sayo: I want a family
Sayo: Why is he not coming back...?
But I keep stumbling all too soon and end up crying again and again
Eva: Even you will probably find a partner that is just right for somebody like you
Kinzo: I just want to say one thing, Beatrice...
Forgive me...
Kumasawa: Your mother, she was...
Nanjo: But it left a huge scar on your abdomen
I cursed fate
I cursed the world
Jessica: Please tell me your real name
p.36
It was at a time when I was tied hand and foot to an inescapable fate that kept choking me
when I noticed that I had spun that thread by my own devices
Maria: Beato, you will take me to the Golden Land, right?
There Mama and me and Sakutarou and everyone will be happy...
Natsuhi: After 6 years Battler is attending again
Maybe, if I had stood up and chosen a life for myself a bit faster, without desperately running from fate
things might have ended without this day ever occuring
p.37
But by now I had not even the power left to put up an honest struggle
Shannon:
I don't want this anymore...
Make it stop...
I want to...
be happy...
I don't want to...
live in a body like this...
p.38
Shannon:
If I could just make it all never happened...
somehow...
If I could just be smilin with the people I love...
In a world without ties or bonds......somehow...
But I can't...
Because I have this body...
I can't go anywhere...
I can't become happy...
p.39
If I was only freed from this lump of flesh tied down by obligation
and could be connected to all of them by our souls
p.40
But...
it is so easy...
For I am now Beatrice, the Witch of Rokkenjima
p.41
I will return this island...
to the Golden Land
NO OPEN FLAMES
EXPLOSIVE STORAGE 1
p.42-43
I have that power
You planned to commit suicide with this whole island in a case of emergency, didn't you?!
Now...
to see if it can still be used...
p.44
I will carry it all out on the day of the family conference.

For now only this chaper, because I have to go eat something and putting it in a proper format takes time. So see you later and have fun so far. Only 19 days left till the first chapter after Confession...let's hope it involves the Hachijos

GoldenLand

2014-05-03, 06:36

That's really excellent! Thanks so much for the translation, Haguruma.

I have to say that I'm pleased that there did turn out to be a freezer involved in Kinzo's corpse storage. Though it seems he was stored in his study and they also used preservatives. Good lord, how ghoulish it must have felt for all of those characters. Were they really having to go in and regularly clean a study with a dead preserved freezer body, and bring in Kinzo's meals to that room daily? They must all have been driven loopy. Maybe it was just Yasu who was left with the job.

And I can only wonder what the hell Yasu thought about all those skeletons being in the underground before she asked Genji how they got there. Not that she was pleased with the actual answer either.

Ayu-ayu

2014-05-03, 06:49

That's really amazing. The catbox lid is slipping back more and the guts are starting to emerge.

The really interesting angle is Sayo's self-loathing over the scope of the incestuous desires and repeating, in both her mind, and in a very real sense what Kinzo did by having a relationship with people who are her own...what? Cousins? Second cousins? Nephews/nieces?

This on top of the timing of finding the bodies of the soldiers (never expected that myself, but it better explains the relevance of the red scene in episode 7), and as we knew, dealing the new knowledge of her gender "flaw" and the conflicts of finding validation as her (his) birth gender from an unexpected source while trying "Kanon" out...on top of everything else.

And in comes Maria to help things move along to the Golden Land...

haguruma

2014-05-03, 07:53

Maybe it was just Yasu who was left with the job.

And I can only wonder what the hell Yasu thought about all those skeletons being in the underground before she asked Genji how they got there. Not that she was pleased with the actual answer either.
Genji and his tactfulness again :eyespin:
In the first scene he's just like, "Oh yeah, I should tell Natsuhi we need a better freezer for her dead father-in-law, hope she has the money :cool:" and in the second it's like, "I just hoped you wouldn't bring it up...."
I mean, it's not like he was there for the death of the soldiers and I give him the benefit of the doubt that he would probably be willing to trust Kinzo when he says that he didn't kill them...but still, Genji is either the most loyal bag of stupid or the most scheming bastard in the whole story.

That's really amazing. The catbox lid is slipping back more and the guts are starting to emerge.
I generally like it how these chapters use many sequences and sentences from the games and reframe them in this new light, most of them becoming much darker. Like Beatrice's verbal attacks on Shannon from EP2, or how George kept on harping on about him knowing that Shannon and he were "connected by their souls even beyond death"....so many characters didn't even notice the hurtful things they said.

Saddest I found was how Sayo even admits that it is her fault for never standing up and becoming tangled in her own web of lies and stories, but that she is just too weak and scared to even attempt to untangle it now.

Now on to the current chapter:

p1
I am the true ruler of Rokkenjima
the Golden Witch Beatrice...
p2
I shall return Rokkenjima and the whole household of Ushiromiya to the Golden Land
For that is the curse of Beatrice the witch of gold who enthralls this household
p3
Sayo:
Dr. Nanjo, Kumasawa, I have a favor to ask of you as the family head
I want you to do exactly as I say during the family conference this year
I will give you as many ingots as you want for it...
Kumasawa:
We will do whatever is in our powers when it comes to you!
We don't need any money for that!
Nanjo:
We want to repay the compassion you had for us with any chance of making you happy
Kumasawa:
A murder mystery game?
Of course we will play along!
Sayo:
Genji, you are my most loyal furniture, are you not?!
Genji:
...yes
Sayo:
You will grant me whatever I order you to do, right? As family head I can do with this island and the household as I please, right?
Genji:
...yes
p.4
Sayo:
Even if I said I wanted to commit suicide together with this whole household?
Sayo(memory):
I would never have wanted to live! In this body that can't even love!
Genji:
........................yes
For I too am to blame for driving you into this corner, my mistress.
I shall serve you until the very end.
p.5
Sayo:
.........Thank you
p.6
Rule X: The accomplicee is different every time.
The adults are all in financial trouble.
It is easy to bribe them.
Rule Y: Lies agreed on by everyone can be depicted as actually happening.
In a locked room situation anything goes.
People who observe the golden butterflies are either accomplicees or dead.
Those who were not bribed can only see the golden butterflies in the timespace of 30 minutes before their death.
From that point onwards I began to write down plans for a crime as if I had gone mad.
p.7
To question which future might be the best and what circumstances might satisfy me...
I wrote these tales of endless October 4th to 5th embellished with this illusion of magic
To me, being used to playing around with delusions, this was no mere plan for a crime...
but also the idea of parallel worlds on this day of the crime.
Sayo: Die
As if my soul was released from my body and I was able to experience all of these worlds...
Sayo: Die! Die! Die! Die! DIE!
p.8
Sayo: Die! Die! DieDie! Die! Die!
I started to find a sinister delight in the act of endlessly killing all of the family
Sayo: Die! Die! Die!
Letter: ...th twilight as a sacrifice and died.
...th twilight as a sacrifice and died.
...th twilight as a sacrifice and died.
...th twilight as a sacrifice and died.
...th twilight as a sacrifice and died.
Ushiromiya Kinzo
With his accursed blood and all his sins he is the root of all of the chain of misfortune
To think that you should have the right to rest in peace
shouldn't it satisfy you to serve a role for Beatrice even in death?
Sayo: Die! Die! Die!
p.9
All of those who continued the chain of misfortune Kinzo began should die as well
Krauss, who is connected to his siblings by a chain of hatred and violence
Sayo: Die! Die!
and Natsuhi, who derailed my destiny
Sayo: Die!
Eva and Hideyoshi, who stands in the way of my and George-san's future
Sayo: Die! Die!
Rudolph and Kyrie, who gave reason for Battler-san not to return
Sayo: Die! DieDie!
And Rosa, who abused Maria-sama.
Sayo: Die!
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo, who indirectly created this situation by serving as accomplicees to Kinzo
Sayo: Die! Die!
And Gohda who tried to get personal gain out of striking a deal with Natsuhi
It would be better for all people connected to the house of Ushiromiya to cease existing
p.10
Notes: Gohda - Fired from his previous position at XXXXX hotel because of a sexual affair
Krauss - Conceals his use of Kinzo's fortune and Kinzo's death. His real estate investments have all failed.
Has been bought out by the majority (hideyoshi)
Intervened into the Child Protection State System. Members of a welfare instition seem to have proposed to put Maria into a shelter system. (Rosa)
Has been involved in fraudulent business. Has been found guilty of breaching contract agreements with an American company. (Rudolph)
From the start I knew that it would only be a matter of time until they, who had made a living by tricking and oppressing others, would go bankrupt
If one family was to make a mistake then all of the past and all the sins of the other people would start to be revealed as well and in the end they would all fall into ruin
Even if they were to overcome the family conference of 1986, there would be no happy future in store for them
That is the destiny, the karmic justice
for this household born from Kinzo's sins and cursed gold
Because no leaves and branches will prosper from such rotten roots
Sayo: So come and die
Together with me
p.11
Sayo: Then nobody will have to suffer anymore
p.12
The scenario is a ritual murder committed by a witch
The plan behind the scenes was my family suicide
With the gold ingots
and the cashcard that was charged with money from converting some of the gold　and the fitting keycode
I would try to win the adults over to my side
code: 07151129
Krauss and Natsuhi have many weaknesses, it should be easy to turn them into my pawns
Still, it would be better to hide my true identity when showing them the gold and threaten them with unveiling their conspiracy to hide Kinzo's death, their embezzelment, or threaten to kill Jessica.
But Natsuhi is not very intelligent and she is fast to anger, so there is probably not much merrit to making her an accomplicee
There would be more gain in just watching her in terror, not knowing what is happening
For Eva and Hideyoshi it would probably be just as worthwhile to use George as my trumpcard
Eva's actions are simple to predict, she is soft towards her next of kin but quick to leave those outside of her immediate family behind
She would be the perfect pawn in my game
p.13
If I can bribe Rudolph and Kyrie alongside Eva, I could probably employ them as acting murderers
A clear downside is that Kyrie is fast to doubt people
If I am unable to make them into my pawns early, I should dispose of them as fast as possible...
I doubt whether Rosa would be open to discussion based on Maria's life, but she should be open to the promise of gold
A petty villain like Gohda should be easily bribed and made into a valuable member involved in the secret agreement
The one with the most value as a pawn is Maria
Adoring the witch, she would do whatever I tell her, and there lies a taste of truth in the words of a true believer like her.
She would surely take the role of confusing the people on the scene, as well as thickening the presence of the witch.
Yes, Maria is my most precious accomplicee, who I promised to take to the Golden Land.
I would never allow for her body to be disgraced, she must rest in peace
p.14
Since Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo feel indebted to me they are loyal and will become my eyes and ears
Due to their long service they are trusted by the family, so having all three of them as accomplicees is a huge advantage
Especially Nanjo, since he can give false statements upon states of death
He will also be able to provide me with the necessary drugs and poisons for a crime
It might be a mystery staple to have the physician as an accomplicee, but it can be very rewarding to follow old customs
Those who were bribed under the pretense of "it is going to be fake murders" will surely loose their composure when being confronted with actual corpses
I'd better play dumb and tell them "I prepared dummies with all the money" or "Somebody else is going around actually killing all those people" and if that doesn't work I will have to dispose of them
Guns exist in abundance
If I hide them in several convenient places in the mansion I don't even have to carry them around all the time
While also hiding the bullet wounds with Kinzo's collection of stakes and sawed-off rifles, it should also be quite the bizarre set-up for the corpses.
p.15
By switching the breaker I can easily pretend the phones were disabled
The means of communication and the electric system are all under my control
It is all in the palm of my hand, the hand of the witch and the family head
I have power over life and death of every being on this island! With the magic called gold their very thoughts will do as I command!
I am spinning this world from 16 pieces
Again and again
and again
As long as I have my magic I can spin countless worlds within the world of October 4th and 5th
p.16
This endless IF
it gives birth to endless Fragments in this catbox called October 4th and 5th
These are all parallel worlds floating within the catbox
and I am there to watch in on them
I do not have to abandon my plan
At times I follow it, at other times I play around
I just have to go about it at random, if I end up getting cornered then I might just kill anybody right then and there
Because I have abandoned making any choices
So no matter what development or what result there is, I will surely be satisfied
p.17
It's like a kaleidoscope!
What pocket will the roulette hit next?
Who will be the accomplicee? Who will be the victim?
And soon another new Fragment will be spun
What Fragment shall I peek at?
What Fragment shall I spin?
This is wonderful! My magic is unfathomable!
Now I have finally become a true witch!
p.18
This is a level of overhead-view that humans cannot reach
p.19
This is my domain
p.20
Shadow: You are calling yourself a witch, aren't you?
Sayo: Yes, I am already a witch
p.21
Sayo: But to prove that I have truly surpassed the domain of humans
I need to be observed and acknowledged by a being even higher than myself
If you should be that
then please, make me a witch
Shadow: And if I say no?
Sayo: Then I will make you acknowledge me
Because I am already a witch without being acknowledged by anybody
p.22
Shadow: To tread from the physical realm of humans over the threshhold into the realm between the Fragments is a feat that only us "witches" can pull off...
And even higher than us...Those are the ones freed from all constraints, rulers of all things in creation, the gods...
You humans are naught but splinters tossed about by the destiny that we give rise to
And you little woodchip say that you want to be on one level with me?
Since this child swore to me to "become a God" you are the first to raise my interest.
I am truly intrigued.
by you.
And by your magic system.
p.23
Shadow: While you are nought but human flesh, by bringing your spirit on my plane of existence you created a proper domain
This catbox of yours holds perfect and endless possibilities.
Aah! How far will you be able to ease my boredom, I wonder.
p.24
Lambda: Very well!
In the name of the Witch of Certainty Lambdadelta
I acknowledge you as a witch...!!
As long as your "certain magic world" keeps being "certain" that is!!
I will forever continue to be your guardian...!!
p.25
Beatrice: This endless tragedy of October 4th and 5th
I shall spin it until I am satisfied!!
p.26
The timelimit is midnight on October 5th
500t of explosives will blow this island away
Until that moment!
p.27
Well then, try and stop me!!
The parents will definitel gather in one place and discuss family matters until deep in the night on the 4th
Murder will be so simple
Their bodies will be hauled to the storage shed that has been painted with a magic circle beforehand, and to hide the bulletholes I will use the sawed-off shotgun to blow off their faces
p.28
If I put poison into the drinks they toast with I can bring it to a fast end
If I make the First Twilight as horrible and occult as possible and play it off like an impossible crime his interest should definitely be peaked and he will feel like taking on the riddle
If I kill either Shannon or Kanon early on then moving around after that will become so much easier
But it might also become very enjoyable to present myself as the actual living Beatrice on the other hand
With the two sets of keys I carry, that of Shannon and Kanon,
I can also pull off some locked room tricks, if done right
p.29
Yes, there was one idea for a locked room that I have real confidence in
A chain-locked-room that seals in the corpses and keys in a consecutive link
First, starting with room (2) and going around, I seal in a corpse and the key of the room before by locking them in
In (1) there is only the key for (6) and the door is left unlocked
Finally I enter room (6), lock the door with the inside-lock and pretend to be dead
The important point is that (1) has to be at a place as far away and as difficult to find as possible
(6) on the other hand must be very easy to spot
It must be a room that has a window or something, which allows the locked room to be easily destroyed from the outside
The people discovering (6) will easily brake the window pane and enter the locked-room, finding the key to (5) inside and being leas in reverse order around the rooms
In the meantime I will sneak out through the broken window and enter (1), lock the door from the inside and again pretend to be dead
Nanjo's help is essential in this but there is a very high gain to it
p.30
Of course there is also the method of locking the door from the inside and then committing suice to create a locked-room
I read that in one of those many mystery novels...
You tie the gun to a string of wire and the blast from the shot will catapult it back behind a piece of furniture to hide it...
I would just have to place a stake beforehand
then the illusion of the witch would prevail beyond my death, wouldn't it?!
Otherwise I could attach a misleading tag to the wrong key and place it in a room
even if I was to look the room from the outside then, the illusion of a locked room wouldn't be broken.
Since nobody except the servants would be able to discern a true key of this mansion from a fake one in the first place.
Of those many tricks I know, which one should I put to the test?!
Aah, but even if I don't go through the huge trouble of preparation, I still have my golden magic of the secret agreements.
p.31
As long as I have my magic
any locked-room trick
any trick of vanishing corpses
any impossible crime are at my free disposable just by pinning the crime on somebody else!!
p.32
What to do next? A royal-road mystery? A really bizarre horror story?
How will the pieces move when I point my finger?
Sometimes I might even carry out the murders without any accomplicees
Or rather make everyone into accomplicees of the fake murder game
I should test
whether they truly fulfill my expectations
Letter: Rules - From the three items listed below choose one as a sacrifice to gain the other two
1, Your own life
2, ______'s life
3, Everybody else's lifes
If you choose nothing then you will loose all of the above.
Thank you, my beloved people
Thank you for loving me
p.33
You will be with me forever
-----even as souls after we die
p.34
You two would gladly sacrifice yourself to my desire, right....?
p.35
Is this really right...?
Something so horrible...
Really...?
p.36
...and kill's George wi
*tears up the page*
To make those I love take part unwillingly, to make the familie of the one's I love take part unwillingly
can I be satisfied with that?
Is this really the right thing...?
p.37
No, this can never be right
I want the people I love so much to live
Because I really...
p.38
want to live happily, if it can be granted somehow
Beatrice:
What is this?
After all you have done
Do you really think that you could still lead a happy life?
FURNITUUUUUUUUUUuuuuRE!!
p.39
Yes!
It is not yet decided, yet I can think of nothing else.
So, that is why there must be someone else to stop me.
Rule X: Please, somebody stop me!
Kinzo said, solving the epitaph equals a miracle
So if I were to entrust it to a bet on the magic of...miracles
The one to solve the epitaph would arrive at this room, switch off the bomb and survive
I want to gamble with this chance as well.
If by any chance my beloved someone would solve the epitaph and through it inherit the headship...
p.40
I would devote my life to that miracle...
I would throw away all my other emotions and would live forever at that person's side...
and I would stop the murders and confess all of my sins
Such a result, whatever end it might bring, I could accept it...
For this would surely be my punishment.
I am sure you will be able to solve it, right?!
You will notice that I am the culprit
and then you will stop me, right....?!
p.41
If that might not come true, then at least let us all be happy in the Golden Land.
All of these bottle mails are made in a way that, if you follow all of the many rules, you will be able to unveil the culprit.
That is why each and every one of these bottles contains a confession of my sins.
Repentance for my sins that would not exist had I not written them down.
p.42
At least as a small apology I send the bereaved families a very small Golden Land of mine.
-- Of course I know that these would not excuse any of what I did
Once I would have Maria-sama recite the invitation I made her memorize, the curtain on this tragedy would have to rise, I assume.
After that it would all be left to the result of the roulette.
On October 5th when the bell strikes midnight we will surely all be welcomed to a land where we are freed from all of our suffering.
p.43
I am the noble witch of Rokkenjima
Beatrice
And I shall make the curtain fall on this accursed bloodline and this chain of ill fate.
p.44
And if by any chance I might be forgiven
Please grant me the miracle of smiling with that person
when the seagulls cry.
This is the last message that the witch left as a human.

And yes, one of the panels when she explains how her magic makes everything possible also shows Shannon killing Nanjo in EP3

Uberzaki

2014-05-03, 08:35

The manga is obviously a deception made by Ryukishi in order to allow the truly great detectives (such as myself) to obtain the even truer answer. I'll quote the red text:

Rosa [...] killed [...] other people.

See? It was obviously Rosa in the garden with the fountain pen! Just check the alternative theories online.

theacefrehley

2014-05-03, 16:34

p.15
By switching the breaker I can easily pretend the phones were disabled
The means of communication and the electric system are all under my control

Interesting
So this means the means of communication with the outside were not actually broken.

With this, Kyrie's hurry in EP7 Tea Party to kill everybody, instead of waiting for the bomb to blow everyone, makes some more sense.
She was right to suspect this was the case with the radio/phone.

「生かして朝を迎える理由がないわ。朝になれば、騒ぎになって面倒になる。無線で島の外に連絡したり、助けを求めたりするかもしれない。
……だからこれが、極めてベストなのよ。チェス盤を引っ繰り返して考えればね……？」
＜霧江

jjblue1

2014-05-03, 21:00

theacefrehley

2014-05-03, 22:59

... I'd like to know the difference between the messages Sayo sent and the episodes we read. Although it seems they had a lot written in them I've the feeling they didn't have all we read. But maybe it's just me.

I always had the impression the bottle stories were like Bern's 'purple truth game'.
Short, blunt and not much inner monologues like Battler has, that fills quite a lot of time. I mean, you can't stuff 300 pages in a bottle, can you?

Kirroha

2014-05-03, 23:06

Ayu-ayu

2014-05-03, 23:14

Looking at the three rules mentioned, shouldn't the last one be "Rule Z"? Just trying to be sure here...

Rule X: The accomplicee is different every time.
The adults are all in financial trouble.
It is easy to bribe them.

Rule Y: Lies agreed on by everyone can be depicted as actually happening.
In a locked room situation anything goes.
People who observe the golden butterflies are either accomplicees or dead.
Those who were not bribed can only see the golden butterflies in the timespace of 30 minutes before their death.
From that point onwards I began to write down plans for a crime as if I had gone mad.

(...)

Rule X: Please, somebody stop me!
Kinzo said, solving the epitaph equals a miracle
So if I were to entrust it to a bet on the magic of...miracles
The one to solve the epitaph would arrive at this room, switch off the bomb and survive
I want to gamble with this chance as well.
If by any chance my beloved someone would solve the epitaph and through it inherit the headship...

theacefrehley

2014-05-03, 23:52

According to EP1's epilogue, the contents of the message bottle was just "one thin piece of notebook paper crammed with words". So it's probably just stuff like what's on the character sheet, like XXXX, sacrifice for first twilight, offered up as a key, blah blah

And if the tales Yasu wrote are really short, like just a few pages long, that could explain how Ange is not part of the story. There's enough time to produce tales without Ange, or rewrite the ones she already had

haguruma

2014-05-04, 03:38

Looking at the three rules mentioned, shouldn't the last one be "Rule Z"? Just trying to be sure here...
I'm also quite sure it's supposed to be Rule Z and it's merely a typo by the typesetter or a thing that got overlooked in editing. It's fairly minor and I'd say it might even be changed for the Tankobon release, as they already did with a few minor things like missing backgrounds or small errors with wrong Kana used in some places. At one point the reading of one of the Kanji is also in reverse on some pages...those are small errors that get overlooked often and especially a sudden Romaji will get by unnoticed if the editor is sufficiently untrained.

And if the tales Yasu wrote are really short, like just a few pages long, that could explain how Ange is not part of the story. There's enough time to produce tales without Ange, or rewrite the ones she already had
I always assumed so as well. The story basically implies that she wrote all her stories AFTER Battler was announced for the 1986 conference, so that'd be what, maybe a month or so. The manga also shows only a heap of loose papers, like maybe 200 pages and something between at least 8 and 15 bottles, depending which picture you look at. Also the few glimpses we get at her script, it's about as "elaborate" as Our Confession was...so a rather short little story (especially if you take out the "commentary track".

Looking at one of the panels (considering that they are probably accurate) there are about 3-5 pages per bottle...so really nothing much. Especially if you consider that the final score will probably already have taken up one page (for effect).

Also, she wanted to be found, that's why she send out the stories on October 3rd, in case a miracle happens and somebody finds one of them early, they could also come to the island or at least report it.

Captain Bluebeard

2014-05-04, 04:17

Wow, a million thanks haguruma!!!!

I must say, confession really makes me like Yasu a lot less (because what the hell?), but love her a lot more as a villain!!!

Also the few glimpses we get at her script, it's about as "elaborate" as Our Confession was...so a rather short little story (especially if you take out the "commentary track".

I get the impression that rather than a story, it was just a little more than a brief announcement of the endgame, like in the credits roll, something like a confession after the crime.

But if that is the case, then what about the Forgeries? Are they just short messages as well, or are they fully fleshed stories? EP6 sure seems to imlpy the latter.

GuestSpeaker

2014-05-04, 05:12

I imagine the forgeries are full stories, some of which are based on the brief ones in the message bottle. It would explain Ep 3 a little, as Tohya was just working with the end scroll and filled in the gaps.

Did the mislabeled key trick ever get used? It sounds like they are making it out to be Jessica's Key in Ep 2, and actually right from the start I thought it was suspicious how Ryu emphasised that all the keys looked the same, but I never needed to use that info...

haguruma

2014-05-04, 05:12

But if that is the case, then what about the Forgeries? Are they just short messages as well, or are they fully fleshed stories? EP6 sure seems to imlpy the latter.
I am kinda imagining the forgeries to be very disparate in their presentation. Like how different movies use different real life murder cases as inspiration but never in the very same way, the same length or the same amount of details.

I suppose the first few forgeries by the Hachijo's were probably only a short story of a few pages, so something like a more elaborate account of what was in the 2 message bottles that were officially found.
If we assume that Ikuko really did find the CotGW bottle and made BotGW from it (which is kinda possible considering that Sayo described the possibility of this modus operandi and also described the locked room in it as her personal pride), then it would have probably only been a short story.
In the VN she also says to Tohya that she's only dabbling and doing it for fun (since she got rejected) and he mentions that he went through her story in only a few hours...so I doubt it'd be something like a whole 300-400 page manuscript. More something like a 30-40 page short story.

Some forgeries will probably fully drop the whole "this is ACTUALLY REAL" angle and go for a more creative approach, since people will get tired of hearing the "true story" schtick for the hundreth time.
But hey...they even sell the Texas Chainsaw Massacre remake as "based on a true story" and some people are swallowing that.

Also, if we consider that Ange might have actually gone to Ikuko's house and read a new script, going by gameboard rules it should have at least been possible for her to read it in that time, so it's unlikely it was more than a short story.

To be fair, short stories are EXTREMLY COMMON on the Japanese market, especially in the crime, mystery, and horror department...so I think that's what they are

Did the mislabeled key trick ever get used? It sounds like they are making it out to be Jessica's Key in Ep 2, and actually right from the start I thought it was suspicious how Ryu emphasised that all the keys looked the same, but I never needed to use that info...
The manga depicts the murder in the garden shed during EP4 for this:

Sayo changed the tag so that Battler later believed it was the key to the shed when it actually wasn't. She made Gohda and Kumasawa let her in with the real key, made them pretend they were strung up, shot them dead (as they couldn't run due to the ropes), changed the tags and left the fake key in Gohda's pocket, then left the shed again and locked it with the real key.

Jessica's room is constructed with Shannon's master key, since she only needed to leave Kanon's master key in the room.

It is also revealed that the food in the chapel during EP2 was poisoned, that Shannon called Dr. Nanjo in the guesthouse during EP3 and made him forward the call to George (who then went to the mansion and was shot by her).

jjblue1

2014-05-04, 08:28

I am kinda imagining the forgeries to be very disparate in their presentation. Like how different movies use different real life murder cases as inspiration but never in the very same way, the same length or the same amount of details.

I suppose the first few forgeries by the Hachijo's were probably only a short story of a few pages, so something like a more elaborate account of what was in the 2 message bottles that were officially found.
If we assume that Ikuko really did find the CotGW bottle and made BotGW from it (which is kinda possible considering that Sayo described the possibility of this modus operandi and also described the locked room in it as her personal pride), then it would have probably only been a short story.
In the VN she also says to Tohya that she's only dabbling and doing it for fun (since she got rejected) and he mentions that he went through her story in only a few hours...so I doubt it'd be something like a whole 300-400 page manuscript. More something like a 30-40 page short story.

Yes, that's way more likely. And it's possible that we get the story told by Battler's point of view because when Tohya read them in a way he was doing that through Battler's eyes so his mind was consciously or unconsciously filling the gaps with memories, explanations and opinion Battler had.

The manga depicts the murder in the garden shed during EP4 for this:

Sayo changed the tag so that Battler later believed it was the key to the shed when it actually wasn't. She made Gohda and Kumasawa let her in with the real key, made them pretend they were strung up, shot them dead (as they couldn't run due to the ropes), changed the tags and left the fake key in Gohda's pocket, then left the shed again and locked it with the real key.

Jessica's room is constructed with Shannon's master key, since she only needed to leave Kanon's master key in the room.

*sigh* At the time I came up with another solution for the garden shed but well, whatever.

It is also revealed that the food in the chapel during EP2 was poisoned, that Shannon called Dr. Nanjo in the guesthouse during EP3 and made him forward the call to George (who then went to the mansion and was shot by her).

So the adults began eating? Without waiting for the kids? Serves you right guys for starting a party without them.

So... hum... Shannon called Nanjo who handed the call to George or Nanjo just told George that Shannon was alive and had called him?

Wow, a million thanks haguruma!!!!

I must say, confession really makes me like Yasu a lot less (because what the hell?), but love her a lot more as a villain!!!

LOL, for me it works in the reverse, the more I read the more I like her. But maybe that's because the more I read the more I'm persuaded she wouldn't have been able to follow her plan of murdering people.

I see her as someone going through the 5 stages of griefs. When she started writing she was at the second stage but as she claims she wants to be stopped I think she has moved to the third and soon she'll be at the forth. If she had had the time to reach the fifth she would have probably dropped the idea entirely.

Uberzaki

2014-05-04, 08:46

Did the mislabeled key trick ever get used? It sounds like they are making it out to be Jessica's Key in Ep 2, and actually right from the start I thought it was suspicious how Ryu emphasised that all the keys looked the same, but I never needed to use that info...

This was the conclusion I came to. As Haguruma says, the servant's key could have easily been used, which brings something up I have been scratching my head over (this is quite hard to explain):

If the perpetrator put a fake key in the room, and could have used the servant's key, it gives the impression that either they were trying to put suspicion on the servants (which is odd since Yasu is a servant). Or that they were trying to make us think they were trying to put suspicion on the servants, so we would not suspect the servants... arrgh!

So we have one or more conclusions to gain from this:

1) The perpetrator is not a servant. Or was a servant trying to put suspicion on themselves (considering that this is a Beatrice' game, this is possible)

In writing this I realised that:

2) The perpetrator needed Jessica's key for later on when the all the master keys would be given to Rosa in order to perform the 4th, 5th and 6th twilights.

I would love if anyone could suggest alternatives. I may wrong about Jessica's key being able to act as a master key (the labeling could have been switched around, so we don't know what key is a master key and which is any other key).

battle22

2014-05-05, 07:25

The confession made me like Yasu's character even more. Can't wait to buy this once Yen Press translates EP8.

Shame we don't have this in VN. Maybe Ryukishi is interested in Episode 9 with just this confession. I'd welcome that idea with open arms.

Witch of Uncertainty

2014-05-05, 08:10

It's really disappointing (and fun, of course) how much better the manga seems to be compared to the VN. I really like the emphasis we have on Yasu and her suffering. Much easier to understand her. I just bought the entire ep 1-3 manga from Amazon. I plan on buying the next Episodes too.. Hope Yen Press translates Chiru too.

Can someone explain what she means with the telephone though (In order to make it seem like it was disconnected). I didn't quite understand that part. :confused:

haguruma

2014-05-05, 10:06

Can someone explain what she means with the telephone though (In order to make it seem like it was disconnected). I didn't quite understand that part. :confused:
Often phones (or at least the system) are connected to a circuit breaker as well, which means, if you switch it off then it appears as if the phones were all dead when in fact that can be turned on again for convenience. That's why she also said that not only all communication systems but also all electrical systems are in her hand.

This is also why some people said that it explains a little bit better why Kyrie would not be that stupid in killing people before the bomb went off (at least if she already killed at least one person) because the chance to call for help IS there and she was right to suspect that.

Yeah, I think we all agree that the manga is finally delivering the finale that Umineko deserved back then. I also love how the Confession chapters are weaving the whole spider and butterfly theme back into the narrative, with Yasu seeing herself as a spider caught in her own web and her thought of becoming free by abandoning her boy/killing herself being symbolized by a butterfly.

I'm also really looking forward to the next EP7 chapter in a week, since I suppose it will not only contain the EP2 part but also at least EP3 and I am kinda still wondering about some of those parts (though Confession made it pretty clear that in the first 5 Episodes it is always Yasu).

Renall

2014-05-05, 17:48

I actually... don't agree, regarding the finale, at least so far. I'm more disappointed in the ending now than I was before. If anything, I think the moral is even darker, more pointless, more cynical, and more worthy of condemnation, unless he's holding something major back to shake everything up. I also tend to think the characterization has gone off the rails to the point of finally - in this tale of witches and locked room mysteries - breaking my suspension of disbelief. It's almost like Ryukishi was afraid to tip his hand with respect to Prime because he thought some people wouldn't buy into it, and I completely don't. I'd go so far as to say his conception of Prime as it seems to exist is basically less realistic than the in-universe fictions, and that destroys everything for me.

For example: I grasped by the end of ep7 that Yasu's life sucked. I could understand that. Conclusions could be drawn about her state of mind but ambiguity remained as to how much of it was real and how much of it was embellished, and how that might've influenced her actions. The manga has gone too far in that direction, putting her in some kind of Dickensian Hell where everything in the universe conspires to spit in her face and stomp all over everything she has ever wanted or been or done. In such a situation, why wouldn't you give up? It prevents any purchase into the whole "she couldn't see the way out" tragedy because there wasn't ever a way out if her life (and the world) really did suck that bad. It's just... too much. I can no longer accept even the remotest plausibility of her character and can no longer empathize. The ambiguity allowed me to read in humanizing interpretations, but at this point it's just kind of silly and I can no longer convince myself it isn't. The alleged behavior of the adults is the same way; they behave more rationally in the stories than they supposedly do "in reality." Genji goes from a cipher to a completely ridiculous monster. It goes on and on and none of it in the second half of the ep8 manga has actually deepened my appreciation for the characters like it did in the first half.

And all this to say... what, exactly? That's really the last stroke and the manga's last real shot at making something of the ending that isn't just a cynical shrug. The way it's building up, it makes Battler's speech about living look like deliberate mockery of his optimism, but I have trouble believing that would've been put in there if it didn't mean something. But in the context of all the new manga information it just seems like the conclusion is something akin to "life sucks, people are terrible, there is no point and no escape, and anyone who claims that people have a better nature is either a dumbass or a fraud." I want to think that's not how it will actually end, and since it isn't over yet there's obviously a fair bit left to show, but at the moment I'm decidedly down on it.

Unpopular opinions are hardly uncommon with me, I realize, and I'm not by any means saying I necessarily prefer the VN ending. They're both just... not very good, for different reasons. The only real possibility of salvaging things is that the manga isn't over yet, so it could just be building up all this absurdity for some greater end. If it is, though, it's going to take one hell of a refutation to get me back in line. The only reason I haven't written Yasu off entirely is because I've always been pretty sure she couldn't really go through with what she believed herself capable of doing, but I need to see that. Otherwise driving her to the ludicrous brink of suffering means nothing more than it did before in the VN, where she was already suffering plenty. It's tragedy porn and I'm not buying into it.

jjblue1

2014-05-05, 18:58

Cao Ni Ma

2014-05-05, 18:59

Renall

2014-05-05, 19:08

Its mostly because the characters are acting ways that they are completely unbelievable. No reasonable person will think like this, so reasonable people would not be able to understand why they are doing the things they are doing. So they come off as monsters/insane to us.
This, plus that we're supposed to believe this is the "true self" of these people, that they took these actions not as characters manipulated for an in-universe writer's ends but as real people, inasmuch as any part of Umineko is "real." Yet they come across as less plausible actors than the pieces of the tales, let alone as comprehensible human beings. We pull away from the fiction to find the reality is actually more ridiculous and implausible, and it doesn't work.

I mean, can anyone say Genji's behavior is even remotely sensible if even half the shit Yasu says he said and did is true? He actually comes across as more human when given less agency within the stories, because at least he isn't acting like a complete asshole for no apparent reason. And story-Genji is a robot, for crying out loud.

jjblue1

2014-05-05, 19:13

Nah, Im with you in the general sense that Yasu is a hell of a lot harder to empathize with now than before in part because the manga is making a really good case that she was legitimately insane. But I still prefer the way the manga is handling things over the vn.

What I dont get is how they'll reconcile everything thats going on right now with the magic ending, if they ever will. Nothing good seems to have come out of Maria's/Beatrice way of thinking and having Ange fall into that trap and still treat it as a good thing would be incredibly cynical. Not only that, Ange would be spreading it to others.

Well, I like to think the magic Ange is teaching isn't exactly the one of delusion but the one that would have helped her to accept Eva and to build up a relationship with her, a magic that would have helped her to break the chain of hate, a magic that would have helped her to keep on hoping, on having faith.

But there's to say the magic ending gives me the feeling that it's just a delusion or a tale to let Tohya met his sister again... and let Battler feel at peace... sort of like Ange gave Sakutarou to Maria. The two scenes are interesting as back there Ange wanted Maria to leave the Golden Land and Beatrice (pointless as Ange is dead and it's just wishful thinking she can leave the GL... unless that GL represent more Maria's spirit not resting in peace and Ange trying to give it peace)... while here Ange ends up carrying Battler to the Golden Land and to Beatrice (either she killed Tohya or allowed the Battler inside him to rest in peace).

Not mentioning we've the oddness of Ikuko not looking old...

This, plus that we're supposed to believe this is the "true self" of these people, that they took these actions not as characters manipulated for an in-universe writer's ends but as real people, inasmuch as any part of Umineko is "real." Yet they come across as less plausible actors than the pieces of the tales, let alone as comprehensible human beings. We pull away from the fiction to find the reality is actually more ridiculous and implausible, and it doesn't work.

I mean, can anyone say Genji's behavior is even remotely sensible if even half the shit Yasu says he said and did is true? He actually comes across as more human when given less agency within the stories, because at least he isn't acting like a complete asshole for no apparent reason. And story-Genji is a robot, for crying out loud.

Oh, I agree with the servants' actions being hard to digest. I'm hoping I'm missing some vital piece of info... like that Genji actually said he was ok with Syao bombing everyone but behind her back he planned to tattle everything out so she could be stopped... and that Kumasawa and Nanjo had no idea what the script for the murder game actually was...

Renall

2014-05-05, 19:30

Well, it's not over, I acknowledge that. But there's quite a few things that were not in the VN that they'd have to address because of what they've brought up as new information in order for me to see something more positive in how it's going thus far. It could be a case of being darkest before the dawn and all that, but the dawn has to actually break before we can say that's what it was.

haguruma

2014-05-06, 06:00

Well, it}s nothing new for me to disagree with Renall, but I think that comes from a different place than "right ot wrong" (even if Renall himself might disagree :p ) and more from a difference in genre-preference and preference-based expectations.
Let me explain before anybody goes through the roof again:

I'd go so far as to say his conception of Prime as it seems to exist is basically less realistic than the in-universe fictions, and that destroys everything for me.
I'd say that it is less likely, yes, but less realistic is something I can't really claim. We are not dealing with unrealistic elements here, just very unlikely elements. Nothing is decidedly fantastic, it's more like a very weirdly thought out "what-if" story that still keeps very much to the ground rules of our universe.
I know it's nitpicky, but I think it's important to keep these things apart when you criticize on a high level, like you are doing.

The manga has gone too far in that direction, putting her in some kind of Dickensian Hell where everything in the universe conspires to spit in her face and stomp all over everything she has ever wanted or been or done. In such a situation, why wouldn't you give up?
But for me that is kinda exactly the point about it. I find it interesting how before this everybody was complaining that Yasu didn't have enough agency to be a believable villain, because she couldn't even get herself to do simple things like write a letter, now it is explained why things weren't that simple and people are still dissatisfied. Maybe I just don't get it.
Much of this "Dickensian Hell" is also a hell of Yasu's own making. She still could have escaped it, just that circumstance raised her into being unable to speak up about it.
Yes, she had reason enough to be petrified in a state like her's, but wasn't that the story of Beatrice from the very beginning? A "woman" trapped by the house of Ushiromiya who is finally, through chance, going to reclaim everything in retaliation for what was done to her?

Genji goes from a cipher to a completely ridiculous monster. It goes on and on and none of it in the second half of the ep8 manga has actually deepened my appreciation for the characters like it did in the first half.
I really don't know if our perceptions of evil are just so inherently different - well yes, they obviously are - but I still can't call Genji a "completely ridiculous monster". He is insensitive, has probably largely given up on live, is fanatically caught in the past, loyal to promises to a fault, and yes, he hurts people with that. But what he is doing is obviously not coming from a place of hate, but from a misguided form of loyalty. Over the whole story we are told that he really believes in his role as a servant, that this isn't an occupation for him, it is his life and his reason to live.
Does that make him guilty of what happened to a lot of people on the island (at least including Beatrice II, Yasu, Natsuhi, and Rosa)? Yes, it does. He would and should be found guilty for a lot of crimes. But I can't say I find him impossible to believe as a character...he is certainly a heavy trope in mystery fiction, but it's not like servants like this didn't exist.

But in the context of all the new manga information it just seems like the conclusion is something akin to "life sucks, people are terrible, there is no point and no escape, and anyone who claims that people have a better nature is either a dumbass or a fraud."
Well...again this isn't exactly what I take from the new information so far.
The hide-and-seek portion, along with other scenes on Battler's gameboard made quite clear that these people DID have good sides. I also believe that the story we heard in EP7 about Kinzo and Bice's first encounter was true on an emotional level. I haven't really got the money to invest into the older magazines, so I have to wait for the next EP8 tankobon to come out, but there's also still some dialogues between Lion and other characters coming up, so we shouldn't take Confession too much as the center of everything.
The thing is, life doesn't suck, which is shown when Yasu is with the cousins, people aren't always terrible, which is shown in a lot of scenes during all Episodes, there is a point and there is an escape (that is not death), the problem is that it sometimes takes courage and understanding. When people don't attempt to understand each other, tragedy occurs.

This, plus that we're supposed to believe this is the "true self" of these people, that they took these actions not as characters manipulated for an in-universe writer's ends but as real people, inasmuch as any part of Umineko is "real."
Well, so far we don't have much more information on Prime actually than we had before through Our Confession. Yes, Kumasawa and Nanjo agreed to play along with a murder-game. Yes, Genji agreed to help Yasu commit family-suicide as the head of the household.
What else about "Prime" do we know so far? The rest of Confession still contains things that Yasu assumed about them, those were the characters in her story, which were based on her perception of these people...and if Umineko should have one message then it is that our perception of people never paints the whole picture.

Renall

2014-05-06, 09:39

I'd say that it is less likely, yes, but less realistic is something I can't really claim. We are not dealing with unrealistic elements here, just very unlikely elements. Nothing is decidedly fantastic, it's more like a very weirdly thought out "what-if" story that still keeps very much to the ground rules of our universe.
I know it's nitpicky, but I think it's important to keep these things apart when you criticize on a high level, like you are doing.
No, I stand by it. Unlikely events happen all the time in fiction, but a confluence of every possible unlikely or unfortunate event solely for the purpose of making a character's life suck harder becomes unrealistic when it becomes ubiquitous. People do things that are irrational with flimsy motivations solely because a tragedy of greater escalation is needed. At least, that's how things appear to be; it's entirely possible the manga will change the perception of these events, since it isn't finished yet. But as it stands I do think it's something that just doesn't work anymore, and I have a lingering suspicion that it's not supposed to break like that. If it is and the point was to find it "off," great, but I don't really have any faith that that'll be so.

I think we were supposed to see this as the sincere and real backstory to the actual events, but seeing it as-is just comes across as silly. I can't take it seriously anymore. He took complaints against the lack of information as reason to go so overboard on things that he forgot to leave necessary ambiguity in place, and that leaves him vulnerable to someone taking him at his word and rejecting it as too ridiculous to accept. As I understand it, that's not even a new criticism for his work.
But for me that is kinda exactly the point about it. I find it interesting how before this everybody was complaining that Yasu didn't have enough agency to be a believable villain, because she couldn't even get herself to do simple things like write a letter, now it is explained why things weren't that simple and people are still dissatisfied. Maybe I just don't get it.
You don't. She's still not credible as a villain, because we both know that she didn't actually do anything and strongly suspect that she actually wouldn't. Or at least I do. Nothing that's been presented so far in the manga has changed my mind on that. She isn't a villain, and the entire point of the story has been to make us agree with that. All the manga is doing now is reveling in her pain by piling on more and more of it. I already got the picture. I was okay with the ambiguity in this particular case. And if you had to fill in what was missing, did you have to do it in such a ludicrous, melodramatic, overblown way?

Plus, the overblown nature of it sort of robs her of agency and dramatic importance. "Why couldn't she just write a letter?" is certainly a valid criticism of the VN as it stood, but when the manga reveals the answer is "Because literally everything that ever happened to her in her entire life was the most horrible thing you can possibly imagine" it doesn't work because it's basically pushing it to the point of "couldn't" (in the sense of inability) rather than "didn't" (in the sense of could have, but had reasons to choose not to). She's not a character tragically but believably flawed and unwilling to do what would help her because of her inability to trust that the outcome will be what she desires, but a sad clown ground beneath the boot-heel of life who really has no reason to expect anything good would ever come of her actions because so little ever has.

I had trouble with her character before and I won't deny that. I always found her implausible and melodramatic. But I accepted it for various reasons, not the least of which that I was always pretty sure she was innocent of actual crimes. I still think that, but the way I'm being asked to read the rest of her character is just too much and I've slid from "I can't empathize, but I can feel pity" to "this is just silly, does everything really have to be that bad?" I've lost connection to the character and just see the story structure she's designed to support.

In general the manga has at this point so marginalized the actions of Battler and Yasu that I have to think there's still something left to be told about their activities on that weekend. If they both basically barely did anything while a tragedy happened around them, it will be a genuinely terrible resolution. The obvious path from here would be to show what Battler actually did, and reveal the truth we've never gotten and that Eva wouldn't have known. But as I said above, I don't have a lot of hope for this anymore. I'm starting to think the author is just a pretty cynical person. See below.
I really don't know if our perceptions of evil are just so inherently different - well yes, they obviously are - but I still can't call Genji a "completely ridiculous monster". He is insensitive, has probably largely given up on live, is fanatically caught in the past, loyal to promises to a fault, and yes, he hurts people with that. But what he is doing is obviously not coming from a place of hate, but from a misguided form of loyalty. Over the whole story we are told that he really believes in his role as a servant, that this isn't an occupation for him, it is his life and his reason to live.
His actions don't make sense even given the portrayal you have presented for him. His actions don't make sense by any metric. He's had a bunch of plot resolution issues shoved onto his back to tie together issues the manga has raised, and it's turned him into a completely unbelievable character. Not just beyond redemption in a moral sense (although he comes across like that and I'd judge him such if I could buy him as a character at all), but beyond redemption in a characterization sense.

I suppose the intention was to sacrifice his character to try to salvage Yasu's, but it ends up breaking Genji to just make Yasu less believable. And Yasu already required some suspension of disbelief and acceptance of genre convention. That's gone now. Could this be fixed? Yes, maybe, if it turns out a lot of stuff here was just overdramatization on Yasu's part. Should it have gotten this bad in the first place? No.
The thing is, life doesn't suck, which is shown when Yasu is with the cousins, people aren't always terrible, which is shown in a lot of scenes during all Episodes, there is a point and there is an escape (that is not death), the problem is that it sometimes takes courage and understanding. When people don't attempt to understand each other, tragedy occurs.
Right, except tragedy did occur, which sort of suggests that the author's intent is to tell us that understanding is impossible. Battler lost Beatrice because he couldn't understand her in time. For the story to refute this, to have a moral in line with what you're suggesting, something has to have happened that revives hope within the tragedy. We haven't been shown that yet. We still might, as there's ep8 manga remaining to go. I'm not passing final judgment yet, but neither can I say that this form of the ending is definitely better, which is where I disagreed with you in the first place.

Ep4 had this revival of hope with Ange. There was a moment of understanding there and a degree of critical character growth. She made sense of tragedy, empathized with those who had hurt her, forgave them, and changed. Presumably either Battler needs to have gone through this sort of moment or Yasu did with Battler observing and assisting it. If we lack that, if we aren't shown that, then a non-cynical reading of the text seems like wishful thinking. Particularly when the VN version of ep8 features an Ange who has completely forgotten that growth. I mean I won't hide that I think ep1-4 are better, but this is one of the many reasons why they are. It will be quite difficult to salvage a decent ending out of Chiru, and while I had hope in the ep8 manga in the first half of the run it's fallen pretty flat on its face right now and needs to get back up and really blow everything away.

But that assumes that the author wants us to draw that conclusion, and at this point I just don't know. He has to put a refutation in the story to make the notion that he intends to say understanding and love can come through believable. The narrative must rise to a new high point in order to show us that this section was a low point. It has to make the Battler who begged Beatrice to live out to be more than a chump who thinks people are better than they are and capable of more than they can really do.
What else about "Prime" do we know so far? The rest of Confession still contains things that Yasu assumed about them, those were the characters in her story, which were based on her perception of these people...and if Umineko should have one message then it is that our perception of people never paints the whole picture.
There's perception and then there's facts. There are certain things Yasu observes that, assuming she isn't lying - and if she is lying nothing in that section is reliable, so I'm assuming she's not meant to be taken as lying, just potentially exaggerating in reaction - simply are true. And the immediate and apparent consequences of those things she knows are staggering in their audacity.

It's one thing to argue that she's drawing the wrong conclusion from Battler's behavior, because we know she doesn't have all of the facts. It's another thing to see Kinzo's skeleton pile and Genji's seeming indifference to it and not think that your father was at least a crazy asshole and at worst a mass-murdering asshole, and his best friend an amoral enabler. A number of conclusions she draws are histrionic and unreasonable, but others seem completely reasonable given the not-insignificant information she actually has. If we take her observations as true (and we have no reason not to), even if we filter out her conclusions, it's hard to draw different ones about some facts she knows.

And what we get seems, well, completely ridiculous for what we're told is "reality." You might be able to accept it and roll with it but the story was already pushing it for me with bomb clocks and Yasu's ep7 backstory. To believe that things were actually not merely worse, but that much worse, and that Genji was basically too stupid and insensitive to grasp even the importance of basic human dignity... now it's tumbling over the edge. It'll take a hell of a rope to haul it back up.

haguruma

2014-05-06, 11:20

Again, I get that you are a very passionate reader and especially passionate about topics like moral, ethics and the basic desire to believe in the good in people, and I also don't want you to think that I am placing my view of the story over yours. Still, I also wanna express that your way of expressing your opinion as "the right way to read it", fires up my desire to respond.

People do things that are irrational with flimsy motivations solely because a tragedy of greater escalation is needed.
I have this problem with several of the points you make, you give very long-winded responses (like I am as well) but you don't really give examples of your criticism. What are these "irrational things" that you talk about at this point and who are the "people"? It's not like I can't imagine, but it's hard to respond when I don't really know what precise point I am responding to.

She isn't a villain, and the entire point of the story has been to make us agree with that. All the manga is doing now is reveling in her pain by piling on more and more of it.
Well, she is still more or less the villain in the way that she set herself up as the villain of the story. The actual point that Battler is trying to make (and I agree with) is that there is no villain to the larger story. She set Kinzo up as the villain to give her ideas about suicide reason, then she tried to set herself up as the villain because she believed that this would give people agency to stop or condemn her, people in post-1986 set different family members up as the villains, Ange set Eva up as the villain.

But as I said above, I don't have a lot of hope for this anymore. I'm starting to think the author is just a pretty cynical person. See below.
Maybe I am just equally "cynical" in way then :uhoh:

His actions don't make sense even given the portrayal you have presented for him. His actions don't make sense by any metric.
You say that, yet he makes sense to me. What do we make of that?
Give me at least an example of what you think doesn't make sense with him? That he supported the family only to have the head of the household decide to kill everyone? Well, in his moral codex it was her given right to decide that...more than that he likely also felt like he owed it to her. That he kept the child from Kinzo though being so loyal to him? Being loyal doesn't mean that he can't be torn about what would actually benefit both Kinzo and the child. And he still can be wrong...like everyone in this story is wrong about almost everything.

Yes, maybe, if it turns out a lot of stuff here was just overdramatization on Yasu's part. Should it have gotten this bad in the first place? No.
Again, what is this lot of stuff.

Right, except tragedy did occur, which sort of suggests that the author's intent is to tell us that understanding is impossible.
I won't tell you your wrong, but I'd still tell you I read it differently.
Understanding isn't impossible, but it didn't happen and that is both the cause and the core of the tragedy. It is possible and it could have prevented this tragedy from happening, but it didn't. That is the message that at least I can take from this, to not fall into the traps that the Ushiromiya clan fell into, to not force your idea of the world unto others but allign it with others, communicate with others, care for the feelings of others.
This hope remains in form of Ange. She can still decide to believe in the good that was in her family and carry it on, or if not that at least take a lesson from their wrongs and do it better. Yes, Kinzo failed, Genji failed, the Ushiromiyas failed, the cousins failed, Battler failed, Yasu failed...but does that mean that Ange has to fail as well?

To believe that things were actually not merely worse, but that much worse, and that Genji was basically too stupid and insensitive to grasp even the importance of basic human dignity... now it's tumbling over the edge. It'll take a hell of a rope to haul it back up.
Concerning the skeletons: Genji isn't lying when he says he only heard the story. When he came to Japan the mansion was likely already built and the skeletons were already there, in place. What was he to do? Deliver Kinzo to the authorities?

And another thing, what is this basic human dignity that Genji is too stupid to grasp?

Renall

2014-05-06, 11:46

The examples should be self-evident and have been done to death. I don't have a script handy to pull all of them out. I suspect you know exactly what I mean and are just trying to be coy about it.

But alright, let's look at Genji. Genji's treatment of Yasu for her entire life is just absolutely crazy and in no way resembles any plausible human being's thoughts, behaviors, or actions.
He does nothing about the treatment of Yasu's mother, at all, and indicates only a very general unease with it. Not enough to actually do something, of course. This is a conflict of stated and actual morality, but it's acceptable if his future behavior plays off this conflict. It basically doesn't.
He is fine with the plan to introduce Lion into Krauss's family, but when it goes wrong he suddenly decides to hide the child from Kinzo. This is a conflict of motivation; is he concerned about what Kinzo might do or not?
He has a child he knows to be male sexed and raised female with absolutely no forethought as to the probable long-term consequences of this. This is a conflict of basic common sense, why even do this? It's neither necessary nor reasonable, and it's actually harder than not doing it.
He brings the child back into the family as a servant under extremely suspicious circumstances that could (and did, according to the manga) arouse Kinzo's suspicions. This is, again, a conflict of motivation; was he trying to hide Yasu or was he trying to return her to Kinzo? Why completely change her identity? What about the risks of this negatively affecting Yasu? He doesn't appear to care.
He appears to offer her no support or guidance whatsoever and refuses to answer any questions or assuage any fears until quite possibly the worst imaginable time, when Yasu is at her most vulnerable following the revelation of the truth about her identity... and he just dumps all of that information on her and then demands that she decide what to do with it. Again, does he care about her or does he care about Kinzo's wishes?
He dresses up someone both he and Kinzo know to be male in a dress to resemble her dead mother so her incestuous father can get personal satisfaction out of it. This is not only bizarre and nonsensical, it's just downright creepy. And he knows Yasu has gender identity issues because he's responsible for them. How does this help?
He is clearly aware that Yasu is suicidal, mentally unstable, and potentially homicidal as well. He has gone to all of this effort to return her to the family and help her become the head of the family, and she wants to not only throw it all away but kill a bunch of people who know nothing about what is going on. He indicates that he is totally cool with this, because she's the head so she can do as she wishes.
So what is it? Does he care about Yasu or does he care about Kinzo? To whom does his loyalty extend, Kinzo personally (so he will overlook Kinzo's actions unbecoming of a head because he owes him) or the headship generally (so he will do whatever Yasu wants even if it's moronic and suicidal, because it's his duty)? Does he have a moral compass or does he do whatever someone else thinks is best, even though he ought to know it's wrong? No matter how you answer this, something about his behavior and inferred motivation doesn't quite fit. His character was vague before and now it's just a mess.

Come on, you're smart enough to acknowledge this is just a wee bit silly. Genji does things because certain things had already been established but left vague, and to explain them necessitates an actor. Genji is designated as that actor and the result is that all of these actions he has undertaken have to be explained. And they can't be, because they clearly weren't that well thought-out in the first place and a number of them are retcons.

jjblue1

2014-05-06, 19:20

I've to admit that I agree with Renall about Genji. I can wave away some actions Genji make with various excuses but the whole bunch is... just too much.

You don't need to be a genius to know that things won't be easy for Sayo and that many of his actions (hiring her to work for the Ushiromiya when she's too young, let her grow in the belief she's a normal girl who would have no problems living a normal girl's life, doing nothing when she started to show interests in the opposite sex and when she started to show problems with her body and sexual identity) made it even worse and then we even have him force her into a mummery to please Kinzo without her having no explanation whatsoever, then Karma conveniently kills Kinzo right in front of her and they catch this chance in which she's already likely vulnerable to drop on her a long chain of unpleasant truths, part of which she should have known already while the other part instead is made of painful truths she really didn't need to know.

And then they go and tell her they want her to be happy? How? And how did they act to help this wish of her to turn true?

Honestly, my best theory for Genji is that he also was a believer of the roulette of fate. He just dropped Sayo in fate's hands and washed his hands clean of her, doing only the minimum necessary and most of it was for Kinzo's benefit.

But while the roulette of fate can work to explain some choices, some others are just a plea for a horrible life falling on Yasu.

Honestly I prefer to think at Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo as villains, I prefer to think they didn't really care about Sayo, Genji was just sent on helping Kinzo not to make the same mistake and Kumasawa and Nanjo were in for money than to assume they were good people, who cared for Sayo but didn't realize if they acted like that they would only made her desperate.

That or somewhere we should be informed they were retarded.

The fact that Sayo's life is the embodiement of Murphy's law as said previously didn't come to me as a surprise as there were enough hints to figure out nothing ever went well with her.
It's a fact I had to deal with prior to the last revelations and that annoyed me back then as really, she has the luck of Donald Duck only she's not in a commedy but in a tragedy.

Honestly the only part that I totally didn't expect was Genji randomly showing her corpses and letting her be traumatized by it.
It's... well, the last drop. They aren't trying to help her becoming happy, they're trying to push her to insanity.
Genji has to be completely void of human feelings to think it was okay to show her that... or okay to tell her the truth about it.

And what's Genji sudden need for telling the truth?

He lied and hid truth from Sayo and Kinzo for 17 years of their life and now he has to tell her everything in all its horrible details?

She didn't need to see the skeletons and if she were to see them by accident he could have made up an explanation for why they were kept there. Instead Genji is just... following the flow.

After arbitarily deciding to take Sayo away from Kinzo, place her in an orphanage, have her sex switched and then have her called back to Rokkenjima he just... stand there and watches as the Titanic will hit the iceberg.

Yes, maybe we don't know all the truth about Genji, as I said maybe he said he would play along but actually he tried to save her and give her a happy life as he claimed he wanted her to have instead of just watching the show maybe he tried to toss her a glove like Ronove does with Beato in Ep 6 or solve the closed room like Gaap attempted to do and... failed.

Maybe Sayo was so desperate that after learning the truth she didn't notice everyone's attempt to cheer her up so we're missing facts.

But still, we have some facts and those do not pain a nice picture.

As for the understanding... I get haguruma's point but somehow the situation in Umineko is so bad that expecting understanding to happen feels like expecting a miracle.

Rosa should have understood Maria. Rosa however was damaged herself and even if she should have understood Maria and maybe wanted to do so, she kept on failing to do so because her repressed anger blinded her so much that she acted before thinking.
We see more than once that she beats Maria without even realizing she's going overboard. Rosa loses control and I don't even know if there was someone she could go to get it back since on her own she couldn't get it back.

Natsuhi should have accepted the baby. Natsuhi however was a mess at the time and she too lost control to the point she wasn't even secure if she had pushed the servant or not.

George should have figured out Shannon had issues. George however failed to question Shannon, believed in how she apparently looked okay and couldn't really picture all those issues.

Battler should have contacted Sayo 6 years ago. Battler however had some serious issues to deal with. As for solving the epitaph sooner or figuring out she sent Beatrice's letter... I'm not even sure he could.

Ange should have understood Eva... but she lacked the necessary maturity and was in a lot of pain.

Eva should have understood Ange... but she was likely traumatized by what had happened and her life was hell.

In short... although understanding is still possible... in such situations I don't expect people to understand each other.
It would be better if they were to do it but... I'm not sure they can.

GoldenLand

2014-05-06, 21:32

Genji sending Yasu away to be raised as female is actually one of the more understandable things he did, IMO, taking into account that some real people during that time period did the same things with maimed male babies. While the consequences of that were later known to be catastrophic, at the time it was something that could be done with good intentions, believing that it was the best thing for the child.

That said, it could also be argued that Genji's reason was not the understandable one of well-intentioned failure but merely the most convenient thing for his plans. Imagine him sending a six year old boy whom everyone knew had suffered serious injuries in a major accident, to Rokkenjima as a servant. Even meddling with Yasu's official age wouldn't have stopped Natsuhi and Kinzo getting a clue. That possible reasoning made me think "but it makes Genji sound like a monster" but I do have to acknowledge that some of the things we already know about Genji as facts make him sound rather that way anyway.

I've to admit that I agree with Renall about Genji. I can wave away some actions Genji make with various excuses but the whole bunch is... just too much.

I think I've got to agree with this too. The problem with Genji is that so many things are piling up. We can work our way around a few and explain some, but the problem is explaining them all simultaneously.

Honestly the only part that I totally didn't expect was Genji randomly showing her corpses and letting her be traumatized by it.
It's... well, the last drop. They aren't trying to help her becoming happy, they're trying to push her to insanity.
Genji has to be completely void of human feelings to think it was okay to show her that... or okay to tell her the truth about it.

And what's Genji sudden need for telling the truth?

He lied and hid truth from Sayo and Kinzo for 17 years of their life and now he has to tell her everything in all its horrible details?

Genji's character still has a lot of potential in some ways. There are a bunch of ways we can read his character. We could say he's a robotic loyal servant who thinks only of obeying his current master (in spirit, if not to the letter), and that in a lot of ways his conscience has been dead for a long time. Perhaps what happened to his family just completely broke him. Or, we could say he lost all will to live after Kinzo's death and that's why he didn't do anything about Yasu's breakdown.

Or, maybe, aside from being loyal, we can take into account that even though he's basically villainous in a lot of ways, the weight of all the things he's done and the secrets he knows could be weighing down his conscience. Maybe he told all those things to Yasu as a form of catharsis. Maybe, Genji has been horrified by the skeletons under the island for all this time and his new master represented a way to talk about it.

Then there's always the idea that, although Genji was loyal to Kinzo, Genji felt a deep resentment towards Kinzo and maybe to the entire family.

And, there's also what we learned about Genji from the manga, that he was once a con-artist, scheming type of person who would do things that would annoy Kinzo but he still wasn't someone Kinzo could stay angry with. And that after the incident that led to Kinzo saving him, Genji wasn't the same and was a lot more servile. And this is all quite in line with what we know of him from the rest of the story: someone scheming who doesn't think about other people's feelings, who later became dedicated to Kinzo as his servant.

Problem is, none of the ways that we can look at Genji make total sense for his actions. And I don't really think that Genji was acting out of malice towards Yasu, but things just seem to be getting worse and worse. We found out not only that he left Yasu to find the skeletons and made a rather bad explanation of it when she asked him about it...but that Genji was AOK with daily sending Yasu in to the study where the frozen, preserved corpse of her (incestuous, crazy, raping, possibly mass murdering) dad/granddad (who died while begging her for forgiveness) is lying and stinking so badly that even Jessica can smell it from a distance? Really, the corpse in the study situation is a big, glaring issue! It's almost on a level with the shoving Yasu into her dead mother's dress so Kinzo can get his forgiveness thing.

But it's not only him. Kumasawa and Nanjo knew about it too. Natsuhi and Krauss didn't know about Yasu being Kinzo's kid or their history, and although they look dreadfully bad for perpetuating the corpse situation, it's not on the same level as the Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo level of knowledge. Anybody would be going nuts in Yasu's situation. And yet, none of those three said "Hey, let's not send Yasu in there"? Maybe they wouldn't want to cross Natsuhi, but they could have made it so that the person who dealt with the study was solely Genji.

These things are so bad that it tests suspension of disbelief badly. Genji might be emotionally dead enough to fail to pick up on these things, but Kumasawa and Nanjo? Even if they're only out for themselves, it's still a bad thing for them if Yasu goes crazy from stress and spills the beans about Kinzo being dead.

(Makes me want to check the info we have to make sure whether maybe it really was primarily Genji who went into the study, in case I'm being unfair.)

haguruma

2014-05-07, 00:54

That possible reasoning made me think "but it makes Genji sound like a monster" but I do have to acknowledge that some of the things we already know about Genji as facts make him sound rather that way anyway.
[...]
And this is all quite in line with what we know of him from the rest of the story: someone scheming who doesn't think about other people's feelings, who later became dedicated to Kinzo as his servant.
I also often wondered how much we are allowed to insert Ronove nto the character development for Genji. Until EP7 we are basically told all of Yasu's development through her fantasy-characters (Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice), so I do wonder how far Ronove also works as a window for Genji's character. Yes, he is written with Yasu's idea of who Genji was in mind, but I always felt that the more the story proceeded the more the meta-characters began to reflect something more.

If we were to take that into account then, yes, Genji was basically loyal to the headship and not to a certain person. On the other hand it's also interesting how from the very beginning Ronove was portrayed as keeping up his mistress' public appearance and working through the cracks that allowed him to steer certain situations. There's also the aspect that he kept acting in the shadows during EP3, 4, and 5, while Genji was shown to have been killed in the First Twilight...

Especially EP3 has a few very interesting scenes where I do wonder whether Ryukishi didn't know yet what to do with the character or if that really reflects Genji in a way: There is him telling Battler about the 1967 Beatrice II, working against Eva-Beato to keep certain people (Beato, George, and Jessica) save from her, him basically double-crossing Eva-Beato and going back to Beato (which, in the light of manga information, would mean him being loyal to the good-natured Yasu but not to the murdering Yasu)...

Yet he never actually goes AGAINST the Beatrices' or Goldsmith's wishes. The one acting on her own behalf (again especially EP3) is shown to be Virgilia (Kumasawa???). Virgilia tries to convince Beatrice to stop at the First Twilight and "remember what she once was", yet is defeated and killed by Beatrice, she attempts to guide Battler on his quest to not defeat but understand and accept Beato.

These things always made me wonder if they are supposed to tell us something about the characters these fantasies are supposed to represent. Well, of course you could also argue that they are equally complete fiction like the Sisters, the Chiesters, or the Eiserne Jungfrauen...

(Makes me want to check the info we have to make sure whether maybe it really was primarily Genji who went into the study, in case I'm being unfair.)
It is never only Shannon or Kanon in the study, there is always Genji with them.
Well, on the one hand it is to keep up the illusion. Kinzo has the one key and Genji the other, both would never hand them over unless it is for a specificly pointed out reason.
In the Episodes there were only very few instances where Shannon or Kanon actually ever were in the study, and if they were, it was always in the company of Genji. In Confession she also mentions having to talk with Genji about the preservatives and the freezer, so it's likely that she isn't responsible for them.

Despite that, YES, freezer-Kinzo needs a big amount of suspension of disbelief. I actually had to chuckle when it came up, because that's what I actually imagined back when it first came up for Kinzo being dead all along.
It's along the lines of a man shot in the chest jumping acroos roofs, a bed being lifted to the ceiling, crossing a part of the ocean in a raft to create an alibi...basically a very typical element of classical mystery fiction. While there is something akin to a "Prime" here, we're still dealing with a story that presents itself as a mystery...so I just accept it as a wonderfully over the top genre-convention. But in the end...many people have kept corpses in a freezer even in real life.

haguruma

2014-05-08, 00:41

And I finally got my hands on an affordable copy of the Joker containing Confession(1)...though now I hope the next Tankobon comes soon, since it will probably end right before the beginning of CotGW (and yes that chapter deals with Tohya being found by Ikuko, as will be indicated by the intrductory paragraph).

The stage is the world after the Rokkenjima incident. The story of an individual who lost all memories except being aged eighteen. This person, having been given the name Tohya by Ikuko, who had rescued said Tohya's life, shows talent at being a mystery author while living with Ikuko. Yet the person named Tohya still remained unable to remember anything beyond their own age. On one certain day, Ikuko decided to show Tohya a forgery of the Rokkenjima incident, which she had found on the beach. But while still telling it, the person names Tohya remembers the faces of the Ushiromiya household and looses consciousness.

The content of the message bottle Ikuko found is...

p.1

Confession of the Golden Witch

Confession of the Golden Witch (1)

If I have but one wish, let this message bottle never be touched by anybody's eyes.

If you, by any chance, should read this, please deal me my just punishment.

p.2

This island is cursed

An island where countless souls and corpses went without salvation and where sins cross and combine
Rokkenjima

The island of the witch

p.3

And fitting to that witch's name
My life had as well
been cursed

p.4

I was raised in an orphanage
And since I was a small child I had worked as a servant in the house of Ushiromiya

There was a great number of fellow servants who came with me from the orphanage, but I was exceptionally young
I was often bullied because of that

There was nothing to be done
The age-gap between them and me was far too great
I had no chance of becoming friends with them and I honestly didn't even want to

That is why

p.5
I made an effort of associating with illusionary friends

The Witch Beatrice: blond hair, moves things around on a whim, a red dress as if stained by blood: Beato's friend

The Witch Beatrice: A high, white witch; get's burned when she touches spiderwebs

If I turned my thoughts towards them they would immediately appear next to me

They would make a loud spectacle around me
At times they would get me into problems, but they would also console me
They were irreplacable friends

So even in lonely nights I wouldn't feel scared or alone

p.6

Sayo:
…
Berune, I think with this I can finally make you take work seriously...

I took one key off my chain and threw that key into Berune's locker
later I took the key-boundle she left lying around and replaced it with mine

Berune:
What is this
Only the masterkey is gone!

...maybe I overdid it a little?

Gaap:
What are you talking about? That was me taking over your body for the sake of teaching Berune to respect higher powers!

Clair:
After that she will learn to respect us!

Yes, it's Berune's fault for not being dilligent enough
Because of er behaviour, the witch decided to teach her a little lesson
...that's all

Kumasawa:
My, my, are you still up at this time?

p.7

Kumasawa:
Tomorrow is an early day, you have to get some sleep

Sayo:
Kumasawa
Uh...I...Kumasawa
Thank you...for helping me...

You know...
the master's...
vase...

Kumasawa:
...aah!
No, no, I told you it was a kitty-cat that did it
Right?

p.8

Kumasawa, who has served the house a long time, Sir Genji, who is the head of us servants, and the master's friend Dr. Nanjo who occasionally comes to visit
for some reason I can't see they treat me so well

There were days when I received a good scolding
But they were always there for me

Especially Sir Genji, who always speaks so strictly about a servant having to cast his heart in iron, and Kumasawa, who so often meddles in other people's affairs

p.9

were like parents to someone like me without a single relative in the world

Sayo:
Are you listening?
I have decided upon my dream!

I want a family

p.10

Sayo:
I want to marry the boy I love one day
and then get children
all to create a real family

Clair:
My, my...
That is a really cute, little dream, fit for a human

Gaap:
As a witch I can't really see it

p.11

And soon after, I fell in love

Battler:
Oh, how've you been?
Unlike that brute Jessica, you really get cuter everytime I meet you, Shannon!
Have you read any new detective novels? This is one that I found especially entertaining!

Sayo:
Tha...thank you very much
I recently read all of Agatha Christie so....

The son of one of the branch-families of the Ushiromiya's
He always made a good impression
He was a little rough on the edges but never fake

Believe me, that trick will surprise you

For somebody like him to have the same hobby as me
and for him to spent so much of his time on the island during the family conference with me...

p.12
to me who had no other friends my age
it wasn't that weird to loose my head over a boy like that

With him around I was able to forget the hardships of my everyday life
so I started daydreaming about spending more time at his side...
and I began to think that there was also a little favour directed at me as well

Battler:
What?
What I'm into?
It might surprise you, but I'm not into the homely type, I like something rougher
Even someone like Jessica, somebody to bash my heads in with would be nice...
And it would be awesome if she was blond and had big boobies!

Sayo:
Blond and big boobies....

Battler's thoughts:
Dad's porn...

p.13

Battler
…
if you ever...
If you ever do quit your position as a servant
Then you can come to my place
If that day comes...
I will come for you on a white steed!

p.14

Does that mean...that you'll become my prince on a white horse?
That you will come and carry me off this island?
What would it be wonderful to be able to live with you

I want to be your bride

p.15

If I am with you, my dream will definitely come true

p.16

And while I give my best to become the ideal woman you dream about
I will keep on waiting for you until you come to take me away...
forever...

We parted with the promise to meet again one year later in the same spot

Sayo:
I have to be more frank, like Milady Jessica...
Like this?
Ba...
Battler, how've ya been?
No...no I can't talk like that...

Magazine: Secret Tips to Boost your Boobs!

Sayo:
And relax and pull
Make a cleavage...
Uuungh

I was waiting to test how much we felt for each other...

p.17

But no matter how I waited, he did not return

Servant:
Have you heard that Sir Battler was erased from the family register...
ServantB:
Yeah, but with his father fooling around even while Miss Asumu was still alive...I would leave the family too
Servant:
Well, Sir Rudolph's problem with infidelity goes way back
Wasn't Hamacchi also with him one time?

Sayo:
He will come back...
Surely...
Next year he will come back...
Next year...

Classmate:
Ah, Yasuda
Sorry, do you have a wet towel with you?

Sayo:
...ah....no...sorry
I...
...haven't yet...so

p.19

Classmate:
Oh, I see, sorry

While I was waiting for his return, griefing
I was starting to feel an unease about my own body as well

My first period...
even though everybody elese already had theirs...

…?

…

Why won't my breasts grow, especially when he likes big-breasted girls?
Why am I the only one not getting their menstruation...?
Is there something wrong with my body...?

p.20

Clair:
Aren't you still in middle school? When it comes to the tides of the moon, some people will only experience it once they have entered high school, you know

Sayo:
You're right...

Clair:
With my magic you can immediately get giant knockers if you want
They will be plump and voluptous like ripe fruits when Battler does return...
But they also come with a set of problems, that a young girls heart should better go untroubled by...

Sayo:
You're right, I think...

Clair:
Yes! Just lay your fears to rest!

I should do that, right?
Lady Beatrice...!!

p.21

I hate mirrors
for showing me how I truly look
because they steal my dreams from me...!

uuuuuh
uuuwaaaaah!!

p.22

Is that me...?!
That boyish looking, flat chested thing with a worn-out face
Tossed away by the one she liked
has no real friend or family to talk to!
Just sits in her room melancholicly, talking to herself, living by deceiving herself...
How shabby is that...!!

Sayo:
Battler...
Why won't you come back to me...

p.23

Sayo:
Come and save me...
Come and take me away from this island, from this fate...

What did this promise really mean to you?

Was I the only one getting my hopes up?

Please...!

So is there nothing left to me but living alone and miserable?

p.24

I want to die right now

And what if I forgot all of my past
and could just live a different life......

A different...

p.25

life as a boy...

Kanon:
My name is Kanon and I will be working here from today. I hope we can get along.

From that point on I started to appear as Kanon

If I could somehow find happiness living as a boy, then I could now start letting my life as Shannon fade out of existence...I thought

Of course this wasn't something that I could just do suddenly
So my life meant alternating between Shannon and Kanon

Kumasawa and Genji played along, but just as a further extension of my game of make-belief
they helped me with secret agreements and managing the shift-schedule

Servant:
It's really something to have a boy as a servant
Shall we spent the break together?

p.26

Kanon:
Food tastes worse if the company is bad...

Doesn't talk much
is pretty cold
only insults if he opens his mouth
I'm sure that's what being a boy is like

Yes----

He must appear as the complete opposite of Shannon
I only have to keep away from people as much as possible and speak as few as possible
Normally there are no more than two or three servants on duty on the island
As long as I have Kumasawa and the other's help
it shouldn't be discovered if I do well

This strategy went better than I expected
I pushed my daily discontent on Kanon
and my mischievious spirit and my feeling for that boy on the witch in me

So I became able to smile freely as long as I was me

p.27

Sayo:
...ah....
It's hot...
No...quick...I need ice!

Kumasawa:
Shannon, take off your socks, quick!

p.28

Sayo:
He will yell at me...!!

Kumasawa:
Master, we will have to borrow the bathroom!

Kinzo:
......yes

Genji:
I am sorry that you had to witness this unsightly display. I will quickly prepare a new soup.

Kinzo:
…
…Genji...you...
…you didn't...
…......
…....no
…..it's alright

Sayo:
Eh?
Master, what is this...

p.29

Kinzo:
I asked you...
if you wanted to take a try at shooting as well

Kumasawa:
Hohohoho, isn't that a treat Shannon? Even Madam Eva and her siblings are not allowed to touch these guns
Don't you want to at least give it a try?

Sayo:
Ye...yes...

Kinzo:
Hehe...

p.30
Kinzo:
There is a real resemblance...
Can it be that now a chance for redemption has finally come...
The heavens are truly fickle...
Hehahaha...
…..

Thinking back
this was probably the most happiness I ever experienced
My friendship with Milady also deepened

p.31
I also very easily became friends with Miss Maria
Together we expanded our world and played in it
this is how we wove the fabric of 'our world'

p.32

And
I found a new love

At first it was a way to finally forget about that boy
so I felt guilty if I had maybe chosen him as a replacement

But the time with him was so gentle
I was so happy for someone like me being treated like a girl
and more than that, his ideal of family that he told me about one day matched with mine

More and more I got charmed by him

I may be not gifted with big breasts
but even if it takes a while I can still get children
and so I set out to built my future with George...!

p.33

Even though there was not supposed to be a happy future in store for me

p.34

November 29th 1984

p.35

After I got a hint from Sir Genji, my passion grabbed me and I decided to challenge the epitaph
I set out to solve it, being sure that a mystery fanatic like myself would be able to do so...

I went about it, completely oblivious to what „solving the epitaph“ truly meant to bring about

And in the end

p.36

it was nothing but me prying open the Pandora's Box that was my fate

p.37

Kinzo:
Uuuuh...
Uuuooooh
Forgive me...Beatrice...
Lion...
Just once...
Call me „father“ just once...
Sayo:
Fa...ther...?

p.38

My true name is Ushiromiya Lion

Kinzo:
WAHAHAHAHAHA
I have not a sliver of regret left in my life now....

Nanjo:
It was a peaceful death. Meeting you in his final moments, he gained his chance for redemption in the end
He must be satisfied now...

My father was Ushiromiya Kinzo

Genji:
Please ask us anything, whatever it may be
You are now the ruler of Rokkenjima
And you possess the right to know all of it's secrets

Sayo:
You knew all the time that I was the master's child, didn't you...
And also...that my mother was Beatrice...
…wait!

My mother was the Beatrice who had been held captive in Kuwadorian

p.39

My mother was actually Kinzo's daughter and actually my elder sister

Sayo:
What does that mean?
I don't understand...
Do you wanna...say...

Kumasawa:
The master deeply regreted pushing all the misguided love the deceased Lady Beatrice on her
And also that he made you shoulder such a gruesome fate by being born out of that
That is why..........

Wait a second
Wait a second
SO i AM the YounGest ChilD of Ushiromiya Kinzo?
Sir Krauss and the others ARE my siblings?
THE CHILD OF THE CHILD HE HAD WITH HIS LOVER?
So MiLADY and the others ARE my cousins YET
also my NIECES and NEPHEWS
marrying a blood relative of 3rd degree IS illegal
The blood of Ushiromiya Kinzo runs thick in my veins

p.40

IN OTHER WORDS I WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE BORN

Nanjo:
After your mother died on you, Kinzo planned on introducing you to the main house as an adopted child

Wait a second

Nanjo:
But Natsuhi, who was suffering from a severe noirosis for not being able to give birth herself at the time

My ears won't stop ringing

Nanjo:
Made a servant carrying you go off a cliff by...

Please don't tell me any more of this
Nothing good can come from this

Nanjo:
But still, you were excedingly lucky...!
I myself thought that it was nothing less than a miracle...!

p.41

Nanjo:
You suffered a large laceration on your LOWER ABDOMEN AND GENITAL REGION, but like through a miracle you survived

Genji:
Dr. Nanjo really tried everything he could to save you

Sayo's memory:
Why won't I get my menstruation...

Genji:
We were unable to save your dear mother...
and for that we wanted at least you TO LIVE

Sayo's memory:
A flat, boyish body...

Nanjo:
Even if it were A BODY THAT CANNOT MAKE CHILDREN
we wanted you to LIVE and become happy

p.43
Sayo:
A lie...
It's a lie...
This has to be a lie...
I am Yasuda Sayo, an orphan
I am not that Lion you talk about
You have...the wrong person
It's not me...
It can't be me...

Nanjo:
Lion...?

Genji:
No, you are Master Lion

Sayo:
CAN YOU PROVE THAT?!?!
DO YOU HAVE PROOF THAT I AM LION?!?!

Genji:
.....yes

p.44

Genji:
On your foot is a scar left from the operation to treat your polydactly
That alone is proof that within you flows the very blood of the master
We were careless in our care, I suppose, and the operation left a scar

Sayo:
.........
That is...
why....
no.....
WHY DIDN'T YOU LET ME DIE BACK THEN....

p.45

Sayo:
I WOULD HAVE NEVER WANTED TO LIVE IN SUCH A BODY!
A body like...this that can't even make love...!!
I AM NOT EVEN HUMAN...!! I'M A PIECE OF FURNITURE!!

Sayo's memory:
I want a family

It's a lie that I can't have children
It's a lie that I am a bastard

Sayo:
UUUUUU....aaa....aaah

It's a lie that I'm related to you

Sayo:
UAAAAAAAAAAAH....

It's a lie that I can't become happy with the person I love

Surely from the very moment I was born
I was never given a chance for a happy life.

And in the future lies only despair...

I will try to get some actual visual examples ready as well. Especially the final part is interesting, because it is very much written and drawn from Sayo's perspective, even having the typical "evil sillouettes" of people (in this case Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa). What they are saying isn't necessarily evil...it's just incredibly selfish.

GoldenLand

2014-05-08, 01:17

That translation is quite interesting, because it shows that Yasu was someone who very firmly wanted children for her own sake (rather than only because of George wanting them). I don't think that's something that's been clear until now.

Yet he never actually goes AGAINST the Beatrices' or Goldsmith's wishes. The one acting on her own behalf (again especially EP3) is shown to be Virgilia (Kumasawa???). Virgilia tries to convince Beatrice to stop at the First Twilight and "remember what she once was", yet is defeated and killed by Beatrice, she attempts to guide Battler on his quest to not defeat but understand and accept Beato.

These things always made me wonder if they are supposed to tell us something about the characters these fantasies are supposed to represent. Well, of course you could also argue that they are equally complete fiction like the Sisters, the Chiesters, or the Eiserne Jungfrauen...

Hmm. It's hard to be able to know how much of the things surrounding Ronove and Virgilia are intentional, dropped storylines, or merely noise. But I think your analysis of Ronove and Genji there is a good one.

I'd like to think that Ronove and Virgilia's approaches say something about the characters they represent. Maybe in some ways they represent an ideal that the real people didn't live up to? Ronove, adroitly and charismatically supporting Beatrice and trying to help her with the things she couldn't express, and Virgilia the same, but also being willing to stop her? The translation of Confession of the Golden Witch (1) above directly shows that one of the Virgilia scenes was Kumasawa's. Those characters are clearly very close to the real people in many ways. Maybe they just go to show how well Yasu knew and understood them. She did see them as the closest thing to her parents.

It is never only Shannon or Kanon in the study, there is always Genji with them.
Well, on the one hand it is to keep up the illusion. Kinzo has the one key and Genji the other, both would never hand them over unless it is for a specificly pointed out reason.

In the Episodes there were only very few instances where Shannon or Kanon actually ever were in the study, and if they were, it was always in the company of Genji. In Confession she also mentions having to talk with Genji about the preservatives and the freezer, so it's likely that she isn't responsible for them.

Despite that, YES, freezer-Kinzo needs a big amount of suspension of disbelief. I actually had to chuckle when it came up, because that's what I actually imagined back when it first came up for Kinzo being dead all along.
It's along the lines of a man shot in the chest jumping acroos roofs, a bed being lifted to the ceiling, crossing a part of the ocean in a raft to create an alibi...basically a very typical element of classical mystery fiction. While there is something akin to a "Prime" here, we're still dealing with a story that presents itself as a mystery...so I just accept it as a wonderfully over the top genre-convention. But in the end...many people have kept corpses in a freezer even in real life.

Of course, the key. That's a relief! I know the freezer thing takes an amount of good ol' mystery suspension of disbelief at the best of times, but the idea of Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo merrily letting Yasu spend lots of time in there with stinking freezer Kinzo took more than I could muster. If Genji is the one bringing the meals and so forth, it makes a lot more sense.

I thought that a freezer would be the most sensible option, but I thought it would be more likely for it to be somewhere outside the house, like in Kuwadorian. Krauss probably knew about that place at least after a point, and if not, Natsuhi and Krauss could have simply ordered Genji to take care of the issue and not taken care to keep informed about exactly where Kinzo was, just wanting the matter out of their hands. But it looks as if Natsuhi and Krauss really were okay with the simplest option, of having Kinzo stay in the building. I daresay it contributed to Natsuhi's issues a lot. Maybe she really did fool herself into thinking he was alive and liked her.

haguruma

2014-05-08, 01:56

That translation is quite interesting, because it shows that Yasu was someone who very firmly wanted children for her own sake (rather than only because of George wanting them). I don't think that's something that's been clear until now.
I also found it quite interesting to learn that she really did love George, quite a lot. The one being shown when she says "It's a lie that I'm related to you" is George, which says quite a lot. I do wonder if George ever actually got to know the truth

I daresay it contributed to Natsuhi's issues a lot. Maybe she really did fool herself into thinking he was alive and liked her.
Now I had to imagine Natsuhi sitting in the study, talking to frozen Kinzo for an hour....only to remember that that is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS IN EP1!!!!

GuestSpeaker

2014-05-08, 10:16

Also interesting to note that the scene with the vase and the cat happened to Yasu and NOT to Beatrice II. I suppose the hint to that was A: how would Yasu know about it otherwise and B: Virilgillia was a person to Yasu, not Beatrice II.

Still, that was a clever trick by Ryu.

Honestly I think Genji had the right idea about sending Yasu away, but he probably should have sent her to a non-Ushiromiya orphanage and just let her grow up not knowing her crazy family origins. The gender reassignment surgery was also not a great idea, but would be very consistent with practices of the time.

Pocuma

2014-05-08, 10:50

First of all I want to thank Haguruma for buying and taking the time to translate the confession. The new insight is very interesting and it feels like there’s a lot of information that really should have been included in the VN version.

Secondly I have a small question: Was it actually said that Yasu originally was a male but changed to a female? Outright said I mean, or was it implied to be the case but not actually stated?

haguruma

2014-05-08, 11:21

Secondly I have a small question: Was it actually said that Yasu originally was a male but changed to a female? Outright said I mean, or was it implied to be the case but not actually stated?
No problem at all. I love Umineko just as much as many other people here and I think it's important to share as much information as we can get.

Regarding the question, it was never outright stated what gender "Lion" was when born. Natsuhi at least doesn't seem to question the child being a boy in EP5, but Lion's statement that he prefers to remain ambiguous about it still stands.

Dr. Nanjo said that Lion suffered injuries to his 下腹部 which can both mean the abdominal or the genital area. It could be it was a girl and they had to take all her plumbing out or it was a boy and his equipment was ripped off. Both would result in an underproduction of sexual hormones...so we can't really say for sure.
I still think that it is supposed to imply that Lion was male, but in the end that remains a catbox for now.

Pocuma

2014-05-08, 11:46

Regarding the question, it was never outright stated what gender "Lion" was when born. Natsuhi at least doesn't seem to question the child being a boy in EP5, but Lion's statement that he prefers to remain ambiguous about it still stands.

Alright, thanks for the clarification! :) I agree that Yasu/Lion being born male seem to be the implied answer, but I guess the truth was left ambiguous because it’s a very delicate issue. I still got a bit confused though, since a lot of people seem to address the issue as if it was an actual stated fact.
(On a side note; I believe the Umineko wiki currently has Yasu’s gender written as “Biologically Male (raised as female)”. Although I know the wiki aren’t always accurate it added further confusion for me.)

Edit:
Another thing I’m curious about:

Yasu’s feelings for Battler are supposed to be love, in the same way she feels for George and Jessica. But she has not had any kind of contact with Battler for at least six years, so she doesn’t really know if he’s still the same person as the one she knew as a kid... a lot can happen in the span of six years. (Although she could have heard stories about him from others.) From what I’ve read of haguruma’s translation Battler seems to have been the first person around her age to truly befriend her, which I guess is a big factor for her attachment to him. But it still seems (in my personal opinion) that her “love” for Battler at its best falls more in line with “loving a shadow” since she doesn’t really “know” the person he currently is, or possibly something close to an obsession looking at it at its worse. (Not to say that obsessions doesn’t seem to run in the Ushiromya family, but hopefully you people understand what I’m trying to say). I guess that having some lingering feelings remaining for a first love isn’t really that odd, but to put it on the same level as the other two (whom she has had a regular contact with) seems a bit… I don’t know. I have a bit of a hard time understanding it I guess.

I don’t have anything against either character. I simply just cannot wrap my head around this. So I thought I could ask how people around here interpret it.

jjblue1

2014-05-08, 15:45

Pocuma

2014-05-08, 17:37

Not that it made much difference because, at least in the forgeries, it's stated that the only change Battler apparently underwent is that he got taller so he's the same person she loved only bigger.
the detail remains unimportant as apparently Battler didn't change.
My problem was that she had no way of actually knowing that. And I slightly doubt that he was exactly the same as six years ago. I remember that they mentioned in one of Sayo’s games how Battler was the same but bigger… but it’s understandable for Battler to be the-same-but-bigger in Sayo’s stories since it’s the only Battler she know, she wouldn’t know any other kind of Battler to write. Although Battler being written in a similar way in ep3-4 seem to indicate that he probably hadn’t changed much at least (as far as Toya knew/remembered at least). But as I said, she could not have know that until she actually met him. So him being at the same level as the others… well I guess it could have been something as simple as her betting on the miracle that he actually was the exact same.

But she must have loved him quite a lot as, in the end, it's in him she put all her hopes to be saved.
I wonder… not to say that she didn’t love Battler, she obviously did, but isn’t it possible that this was a case of an unconscious regression?
She wanted to be understood, and used a murder-mystery to accomplice this goal because it was something she was familiar with. As a child she used to read mysteries, and Battler was her companion in reading/solving these mysteries. Battler was also the kind of person to show sympathy even for the culprits and care for the heart (Speaking of caring about the heart, does anyone have an idea of what relation Will could have to Battler?).
Sayo basically betted on that Battler would be able to solve her mystery and show her the same sympathy/understanding he showed for the mysteries back when they where young. She’s trying to go back to a time when things was simpler, a time before her life went completely to hell. Sure it wasn’t perfect, but it was far easier than what was to come.
Of course above is just an idea I had… I might be completely off track, but it’s something that I haven’t seen anyone talk about so I thought I’d throw it out there.

With Battler instead she had a long period of "untainted" love... until he didn't came back and she started fearing he didn't care about her and feeling worse and worse.

This reminds me… How long was she in love with Battler before he left? And when did she fall in love with George and Jessica?

Also… I don’t want to jump to conclusions, so what exactly do you mean with “untainted”?

GoldenLand

2014-05-08, 19:40

Secondly I have a small question: Was it actually said that Yasu originally was a male but changed to a female? Outright said I mean, or was it implied to be the case but not actually stated?

It's as Haguruma says, there's nothing outright saying it.

There are some things which may imply it, one of which you might have already seen at the Umineko wiki, which is Lion's answer (written by Ryukishi) to a q&a.

“Lion: I like most subjects, but probably the one I like least is English. It seems my pronunciation is too native - my classmates laughed at me, which was a little uncomfortable. I’m also skilled at cooking. Gender equality, after all. I think that regardless of gender, one should be able to stand in the kitchen.”

Other things which may imply a male Lion are the height difference between Lion and Beatrice when they meet in ep 8's manga. There is also some of the stuff that we're shown in Yasu's thoughts about Kanon, ("For Kanon, who was this lump of all the ugliness inside of me, For him who was the opportunity for a life as a boy") but that is slightly more questionable now that we know Kanon was being acted out prior to the epitaph being solved. Though it is strange the way that Yasu jumped from worries about her female physical development to creating a persona who could live as male, thinking that could solve it somehow.

haguruma

2014-05-09, 01:00

Thank you so much for the translation! Though the chap dealing with Tohya being found by Ikuko (http://beatotsundere.tumblr.com/post/74303435978/umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-ep8-twilight-of-the-golden) took place just before our confession... Or are you meaning another one?
No, no, I meant exactly that one. Though I do wonder how they are going to follow that up in the next chapter, now that Confession is finished. Or if they are just going to go to the scene with Ange in the Golden Land waking up (like what happened right after the fainting scene in the VN).
But I totally overlooked those scans last time I checked the blog. Damn, I sure hope the next tankobon arrives fast. Still nothing announced, so I fear it's gonna take till August or something (even though EP7 came out of nowhere as well)...

I do wonder though. Ikuko finding the message bottle is a little bit more of an explanation of why she got into the Rokkenjima-fandom so hard, instead of just, "uhm...searching for inspiration I guess."
On this page (http://31.media.tumblr.com/af23923c366b263cae9e98ccf637d287/tumblr_mzveqgWiVR1qicpp7o4_1280.jpg) she says: "Here, look at this. A few days ago, I picked this up at the ocean where I also found you and I though we could read it together. But instead of a forgery, it's more akin to the message bottle from 'And Then There Were None'."

And then there is this page here (http://37.media.tumblr.com/93a345abfa3ee0bb4c226150c38e2f01/tumblr_mzveqgWiVR1qicpp7o3_1280.jpg) where Tohya has a short memoryflash of (apparently) Sayo handing him a stack of paper, kind of implying that at least something like that took place.

Btw. can we take boobs as a hint that Ikuko is not Sayo? If we wanted to imply that she wanted to fulfill Battler's fantasy she should have been blond, if not then there's not really any need for fake breasts...is there?

I wonder if Sayo feels Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo are so nice to her just because that's the top of kindness she had experienced.
Nah, the manga actually does portray them as quite nice. They help her out, Nanjo gives her candy, Kumasawa is quite motherly and Genji...well "a servant has to cast his heart in iron" says a lot about what kinda father figure he was :heh:

Though it's interesting... in this perspective Sayo seems much closer to Clair and Gaap than to Shannon...
Well, she still regards Yasuda Sayo=Shannon to be her real identity. She quite clearly admits that Kanon, the witch and everything is made up. That's why the revelation that she is Ushiromiya Lion is that much more devastating to her, because even Yasuda Sayo was a lie and Ushiromiya Lion never even existed...so she is quite literally a person that never existed.

Well, it's good the dream of marrying and having children was also her own. It sort of implies George wasn't forcing his dream on her but they were sharing the same dream... and probably before discovering the truth this felt like one of George's good points... but afterward George's words were likely only a painful reminder of what she couldn't have.

Just wondering... when she talks about a promise... do we see them over the balcony? In Ep 5 we see Battler remembering making a promise there (a scene original for the manga and never showed in Ep 7) and there is also where Beato met Battler in Ep 4 so it's a nice touch.
In the EP8 manga it's the rose garden and in the EP7 manga it's more specifically the arbor. I think the EP5 setting was done more for emphasis of importance than for actual setting, but it still makes a nice game out of the power ballance, because Beato is actually demanding the promise from Battler when he is standing where he made it.

Also it sort of feel forced. As she doesn't know yet she's Lion she needs Genji and Kumasawa's help to trick Natsuhi which could cause them troubles. It feels weird she felt like asking it. But maybe things went much smoother and slower than I think and what started with just a short prank became a habit.
Well, the manga makes quite a big thing out of the decision (which I like more than the VN's "and then I needed a little brother"):
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/NewDoc2_1.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/NewDoc2_1.jpg.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/NewDoc2_2.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/NewDoc2_2.jpg.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/NewDoc2_3.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/NewDoc2_3.jpg.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/NewDoc2_4.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/NewDoc2_4.jpg.html)
She is obviously very much not only tomboyish, but practically a boy (except for her facial features maybe). It is also implied she read up alot about sexual development and will probably have noticed that something is wrong with her, she didn't yet think she IS a boy but considered it as "the complete opposite of Shannon" which made it possible for her to escape from the pain.
She also mentions that in the beginning she saw Kanon as a way to slowly let Shannon fade out of existence. So she actually considered becoming Kanon, if not certain events (coughGeorgecough) would have happened.

I sort of feel like banging my head on the screen at how Kinzo thinks to redeem himself. But well, considering he had been a horrible father maybe he had no idea how to act.
It's also still quite telling how he says that there are "no regrets left in his life now"...like he was a perfectly okay human being otherwise.

And the master deeply regretted all this so he did what? Gave her the gold he stole in place of giving it to the children he felt nothing for when he died? Such a kind act. It really took Kinzo lot of efforts...
Well, to give him credit. The idea of introducing Lion as the child of Natsuhi was already part of his making up for his mistakes according to Kumasawa, so he might have immediately seen his mistake and it was really a moment of complete black-out because he missed Bice THAT much.
Still, yeah, Kinzo was an asshole and I think Kumasawa is more trying to calm Sayo down, though in a completely wrong way.

And how do they know about Natsuhi pushing the servant? Natsuhi only confessed it on the grave of the husband of said servant.
That's why I translated it as "and made the servant holding you go off a cliff by..."
The original Japanese 夏妃はあなたを抱いていた使用人ごと崖から・・・ doesn't translate well, since it would become something like "Natsuhi (verb missing) you and the servant holding you from a cliff..." by Japanese working different than English (and most European languages)

They know that Natsuhi was with the servant that went off the cliff and that she called Genji, knowing what had happened. Nanjo also said that she was clearly suffering under severe neurotic behaviour at the time...but what actually happened is yet another catbox.
Even Natsuhi was probably too mentally unstable at the point to know whether she was actually holding the servant, pushing her, or maybe even just standing there staring (like a certain servant did a lot)...

I can understand Nanjo patching her up in a rush, but shouldn't they have carried her to a specialist afterward?
Well, the specialist would have probably taken her away from them and conducted an investgation on who that child was...especially with such an incident.
Also, I think that it also shows that the three wanted to talk about these events, being able to share them is cathartic for them (even though it is traumatic for Sayo). They had all this good will of what would become of the child and how they would make everything better...yet they totally messed up.
I can see them actually WANTING good.

Was the work they did so bad she can't even make love or she's jumping to conclusions?
Well, she talks of a 恋をすることも出来ない体, literally a body that cannot make love (though it is ambiguous whether it means physical sex or not), and Beatrice mentions alot how "love is measured in two bodies piled atop of each other". Sayo also mentions how everything would have come out if she had spent the night with George...so it is quite likely that she is really unable to have sex at all...that basically Nanjo only formed it as to look female, but it doesn't really work much, which would again hint towards a male child (missing the whole internal equipment that allows vaginal penetration and such).

But she must have loved him quite a lot as, in the end, it's in him she put all her hopes to be saved.

Probably she loved George but didn't felt the same chemistry she felt with him.
I think I'd agree with Pocuma, that she chose Battler to challenge her mystery because that is what she was building as a fail-safe to stop her. She wanted to be with George and Jessica as Shannon and Kanon respectively, which was possible in the Golden Land, but Battler gave her a chance, to be understood.
Pocuma also said it, Battler proved that he was interested in the heart of the story, that he could sympathize with the culprit and by doing so find out what the whole scope of events was.

But well, as said before the detail remains unimportant as apparently Battler didn't change.
Well, the fact that the island exploded implies that he did change. He didn't remember, he wasn't the charming prince on a white horse, he wasn't the great detective. I think when looking at EP1 and 2 Battler there is also a lot of spite towards him that comes through in CotGW as well.
He is incompetent, he doesn't find the culprit, he does fail, he doesn't remember...

This reminds me… How long was she in love with Battler before he left? And when did she fall in love with George and Jessica?
Well, let's say Sayo probably joined the household around 1974 to '76. She had around 5 years to develop her friendship with Battler. Reading detective novels maybe started around 9 for them, so '76 for Sayo or '77 for Battler. The manga depicts her actually falling in love only in '80 when he made his promise of returning the next year, what he never did.
Then she is depicted actively waiting till '83, which is also be the year of the letters. '83 (when she is 16) is also the year she apparently actively starts wondering about her sexual development. So she started appearing as Kanon after the family conference in '83. It is also after this that she started opening up as Shannon (by pushing all her hatred into Kanon), the year she was noticed by Kinzo, she started playing with Jessica, started the Marriage Sorciere and it was only after that that she began dating George apparently.

It was not a family conference when she was first honestly approached by George, so it could have been around spring '84.
She then solved the epitaph on November 29th 1984 and learned everything. Only after that did Jessica honestly try to get with Kanon, so the school festival was probably the first half of 1986.

So, she's been with George for 2 years and had Jessica hanging on her heels for maybe around a year.

jjblue1

2014-05-09, 17:00

My problem was that she had no way of actually knowing that. And I slightly doubt that he was exactly the same as six years ago. I remember that they mentioned in one of Sayo’s games how Battler was the same but bigger… but it’s understandable for Battler to be the-same-but-bigger in Sayo’s stories since it’s the only Battler she know, she wouldn’t know any other kind of Battler to write. Although Battler being written in a similar way in ep3-4 seem to indicate that he probably hadn’t changed much at least (as far as Toya knew/remembered at least). But as I said, she could not have know that until she actually met him. So him being at the same level as the others… well I guess it could have been something as simple as her betting on the miracle that he actually was the exact same.

Nope, she had no way of being sure if he was still like she remembered him or not. There's to say that too played in her roulette. She thinks her Battler (the Battler she remembers and love) would be able to solve her mystery and save her. In Ep 4 she basically blamed the Battler who doesn't remember of being a fake. Even though she knew he was the original, she sort of rejected him by making an excuse.

"No. There is no way that you are my opponent Ushiromiya Battler. With this as proof."
"Proof, you say?!"
"You do not know of that sin six years ago."

"That is enough. ......I was slightly aware from the beginning that you might not be Ushiromiya Battler. ......So, I had to question you. I had to ask about something the real Battler would have known. ............What a shame. I even bet on the one in a quadrillion chance of a miracle, that you might really be Ushiromiya Battler. However, it looks like you're a different person with the same first and last names after all."

In a way her hope that Battler had remained the same might look childish or foolish but she believed she loved that Battler. If he had changed it would have been for her the same as he had died as the Battler she loved wouldn't exist anymore.

In a way she however believed she had confirmations of him being close to the self she remembered. She pays quite a lot of attention to when Kyrie and Rudolf talk about him.

If you ask me I believe Kyrie and Rudolf's info weren't that reliable. They present Battler as popular with ladies, which tends to make us think he had a Rudolf-like attitude (and makes Sayo fears he was only playing with her) but we know that insitead Battler is single and prefers to have friends. When the cousins read the letters they claim Battler says he's having a blast and living his life to his fullest... but we know after 6 years Battler is still scrambled on the insides for what happened with his mother.

So I think that probably when Battler went on Rokkenjima or when he related with Rudolf, Kyrie and the cousins, he too showed more a persona than his true self. Maybe his true self was more like the Battler of Ep 6 (let's also consider in 6 years Battler lost 3 of his relatives one after the other)... but he presented himself like the cheerful Battler everyone knew.

But well, I guess this part didn't matter much for Sayo.

I wonder… not to say that she didn’t love Battler, she obviously did, but isn’t it possible that this was a case of an unconscious regression?
She wanted to be understood, and used a murder-mystery to accomplice this goal because it was something she was familiar with. As a child she used to read mysteries, and Battler was her companion in reading/solving these mysteries. Battler was also the kind of person to show sympathy even for the culprits and care for the heart (Speaking of caring about the heart, does anyone have an idea of what relation Will could have to Battler?).
Sayo basically betted on that Battler would be able to solve her mystery and show her the same sympathy/understanding he showed for the mysteries back when they where young. She’s trying to go back to a time when things was simpler, a time before her life went completely to hell. Sure it wasn’t perfect, but it was far easier than what was to come.
Of course above is just an idea I had… I might be completely off track, but it’s something that I haven’t seen anyone talk about so I thought I’d throw it out there.

More than regression I'll say for a part of her time sort of stopped. The young Sayo who loved the young Battler and hoped they'll live happily ever after never got to grow and move over her love for him. Her feelings were simply pushed aside so as not to deal with the pain (the blossom of love moved from Shannon to Beatrice) but never died or were cut or dealt with.

This reminds me… How long was she in love with Battler before he left? And when did she fall in love with George and Jessica?

The VN/manga seem to toss in the idea it started in 1980 but likely it was a gradual building up as in 1980 Sayo was waiting for Battler and we know they exchanged books already more than once. In 1980 she was probably aware that to her Battler was special, believed to love him and wanted to be loved back.

She began aware of George only in 1984 (though George had been pursing her for a long time) but in 1984 she also solves the epitaph so things turn sour pretty soon.

Kanon 'had birth' in 1983 but Kanon seems to become aware of Jessica's existence only after going to the festival with her which took place after Shannon went to Okinawa with George so very likely it's a pretty recent thing. At best 1985 if not 1986.

Also… I don’t want to jump to conclusions, so what exactly do you mean with “untainted”?

When Sayo begins dating George she feels regret because she fears she's using him as a replacement. It gets even worse when she learns the truth about herself.

With Battler she didn't have that sort of thoughts. He wasn't a replacement, she could feel whatever she felt for him without bad feelings attached. Maybe more than untainted is untroubled... but untainted to me gets better the idea of how her lovestory with Battler felt for her compared to the one she had with George.

I'm not too sure how to explain it better...

No, no, I meant exactly that one. Though I do wonder how they are going to follow that up in the next chapter, now that Confession is finished. Or if they are just going to go to the scene with Ange in the Golden Land waking up (like what happened right after the fainting scene in the VN).
But I totally overlooked those scans last time I checked the blog. Damn, I sure hope the next tankobon arrives fast. Still nothing announced, so I fear it's gonna take till August or something (even though EP7 came out of nowhere as well)...

Well, I found odd how we had the new volume of Ep 7 but not the one of Ep 8. Maybe they want to add extra material for that one or it's supposed to contain some heavy editing and this slowed down its release? Because there surely was enough material for a volume.

But it'll be interesting if, before showing Ange waking up, we were shown some more Tohya scenes as it's pretty obvious he's a male and not Ange and therefore people can't be tricked like in the VN thinking he's Ange... and since he claimed to be 18 they can't even think he's Sayo whose ages are either 16 or 19.

I do wonder though. Ikuko finding the message bottle is a little bit more of an explanation of why she got into the Rokkenjima-fandom so hard, instead of just, "uhm...searching for inspiration I guess."
On this page (http://31.media.tumblr.com/af23923c366b263cae9e98ccf637d287/tumblr_mzveqgWiVR1qicpp7o4_1280.jpg) she says: "Here, look at this. A few days ago, I picked this up at the ocean where I also found you and I though we could read it together. But instead of a forgery, it's more akin to the message bottle from 'And Then There Were None'."

Honestly I find Ikuko's expression scary as she watches the Pc... she... reminds me of Erika. Maybe she ended up inspiring her.

And then there is this page here (http://37.media.tumblr.com/93a345abfa3ee0bb4c226150c38e2f01/tumblr_mzveqgWiVR1qicpp7o3_1280.jpg) where Tohya has a short memoryflash of (apparently) Sayo handing him a stack of paper, kind of implying that at least something like that took place.

I thought they were books and Battler/Tohya was remembering when they were exchanging them...

Btw. can we take boobs as a hint that Ikuko is not Sayo? If we wanted to imply that she wanted to fulfill Battler's fantasy she should have been blond, if not then there's not really any need for fake breasts...is there?

Well, I think Sayo's wish for breasts wasn't just caused by Battler but by how she wanted to look like a normal woman.
But technically the fact she has 'confession', if confession included really what those chapters showed and it wasn't merely a... last trick to make us think something and then reveal us something else... this can explain from where all the info about Sayo's life that Tohya couldn't have known came from.
One of the reasons for which Ikuko needed to be Sayo was it was hard to picture how Tohya got all those info that are in Ep 7 (but also in other episodes) without someone basically revealing them to him. If he has Sayo's confession he could have merely fished them out from there.
Honestly I find it a cheap trick to justify it but it's a trick that work.

Nah, the manga actually does portray them as quite nice. They help her out, Nanjo gives her candy, Kumasawa is quite motherly and Genji...well "a servant has to cast his heart in iron" says a lot about what kinda father figure he was :heh:

I guess I explained myself poorly. I don't mean to say they were cold to her, just that to her those acts of kindness felt much more important than they would had she had a normal family. She ends up considering them her parents but were they like real parents or it's just she had no better?

(on a sidenote, considering that in Umineko there are also horrible parents and that Kinzo was one of them, it's more than likely that Kumasawa and Co fit the role much more nicely than some other adults in the story... -_-;;; )

Well, she still regards Yasuda Sayo=Shannon to be her real identity. She quite clearly admits that Kanon, the witch and everything is made up. That's why the revelation that she is Ushiromiya Lion is that much more devastating to her, because even Yasuda Sayo was a lie and Ushiromiya Lion never even existed...so she is quite literally a person that never existed.

Well, it probably is. As much as the fandom try to set Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice on the same level Shannon is probably the most close to her own soul as the other two are only made of parts she discharged and completed with random ideas she had for them. Kanon is more like a mask she created, a role, while Shannon for a long while was how she presented herself to the world, the filter she used to interact with it, modeled over her abilities and problems. It's not enterely her but, for a long while, it must have been.

In the EP8 manga it's the rose garden and in the EP7 manga it's more specifically the arbor. I think the EP5 setting was done more for emphasis of importance than for actual setting, but it still makes a nice game out of the power ballance, because Beato is actually demanding the promise from Battler when he is standing where he made it.

*sigh* I wish they would pick up a setting. The so called promise is a rather important thing for Sayo but in the VN is pretty vague (Battler actually never say I promise although he sounds pretty assuring when he claims he'll be back) and I thought it was nice in Ep 5 they confirmed there was a promise but then that scene seemed to be made up as it's never showed in Ep 7...

Well, the manga makes quite a big thing out of the decision (which I like more than the VN's "and then I needed a little brother"):
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/NewDoc2_1.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/NewDoc2_1.jpg.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/NewDoc2_2.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/NewDoc2_2.jpg.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/NewDoc2_3.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/NewDoc2_3.jpg.html)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/NewDoc2_4.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/NewDoc2_4.jpg.html)

Thank you so much for the pics! You've no idea how much I want to see those chapters!

She is obviously very much not only tomboyish, but practically a boy (except for her facial features maybe). It is also implied she read up alot about sexual development and will probably have noticed that something is wrong with her, she didn't yet think she IS a boy but considered it as "the complete opposite of Shannon" which made it possible for her to escape from the pain.
She also mentions that in the beginning she saw Kanon as a way to slowly let Shannon fade out of existence. So she actually considered becoming Kanon, if not certain events (coughGeorgecough) would have happened.

My feelings are she just wanted to shut herself out of social contacts. Kanon is designed to be asocial and bitter. Becoming Kanon would mean breaking all her ties and not building others. Kanon tries to be firm into rejecting Jessica... which means she was probably not planning to look out for a happy life with Kanon, just for a life in which she could avoid dealing with some unpleasant parts of life (Sayo isn't good at social interaction. We see she claims she has no friends, discounting classmates and Jessica, not just the other servants. She also felt horrible pain from how her relation with Battler failed so maybe she just wanted to be left alone. Probably she also thought that Kanon wouldn't be bullied and that in return could answer back).

It's also still quite telling how he says that there are "no regrets left in his life now"...like he was a perfectly okay human being otherwise.

Honestly, I've hard time liking Kinzo. I get maybe he wasn't purely evil and that he had his good moments but he was selfish and egocentric as hell and had no idea what it mean to take care of another human being. I'm not even sure I approve how he let Genji become his servant instead than helping him to rebuild his own life as an equal... but maybe Genji was so broken by what he went thought that was the best for him.

Well, to give him credit. The idea of introducing Lion as the child of Natsuhi was already part of his making up for his mistakes according to Kumasawa, so he might have immediately seen his mistake and it was really a moment of complete black-out because he missed Bice THAT much.
Still, yeah, Kinzo was an asshole and I think Kumasawa is more trying to calm Sayo down, though in a completely wrong way.

Honestly I don't even like the idea of introducing Lion like that. He's the father but pushes that responsibility on Krauss and Natsuhi. He doesn't even tell them the truth so the siblings see Lion as an orphan who replaced them instead than their brother. Maybe this helps not making him look like a bastard in the eyes of the world, but in the eyes of his family he was likely worse than that, he wasn't even related to them (okay, they could have had suspicions but still he didn't even had the guts to tell them the truth).

Honestly I consider Kinzo the main responsible for his tragedy due to how he handled his family.

That's why I translated it as "and made the servant holding you go off a cliff by..."
The original Japanese 夏妃はあなたを抱いていた使用人ごと崖から・・・ doesn't translate well, since it would become something like "Natsuhi (verb missing) you and the servant holding you from a cliff..." by Japanese working different than English (and most European languages)

They know that Natsuhi was with the servant that went off the cliff and that she called Genji, knowing what had happened. Nanjo also said that she was clearly suffering under severe neurotic behaviour at the time...but what actually happened is yet another catbox.
Even Natsuhi was probably too mentally unstable at the point to know whether she was actually holding the servant, pushing her, or maybe even just standing there staring (like a certain servant did a lot)...

Uh? In Ep 5 is said she pretended nothing happened and that she just had let the baby in the care of the servant while she was resting alone. Then, when Kinzo searched for the baby they realized the servant had disappeared and then they discovered the broken fence.

The only one to whom Natsuhi confessed the truth was the servant's husband after he died. Genji could have overheard her but as this happened, according to Natsuhi, not so many years ago, he shouldn't have known by the time he hid the baby from Kinzo... and maybe not even by the time Sayo came on Rokkenjima.

Does the manga give different info?

Well, the specialist would have probably taken her away from them and conducted an investgation on who that child was...especially with such an incident.
Also, I think that it also shows that the three wanted to talk about these events, being able to share them is cathartic for them (even though it is traumatic for Sayo). They had all this good will of what would become of the child and how they would make everything better...yet they totally messed up.
I can see them actually WANTING good.

Well, the specialist could be bribed. Or tricked into believing that baby was... I don't know... Genji's illegittimate son whom he didn't want to recognize but that he wanted to help. Or just a poor orphan for which they felt sympathy/pity/whatever. They don't really have to give him more details than the one they gave to the Fukuin director.

Yes, I think they wanted good but they did it in such a clumsy way they remind me of the old saying 'with friends like those who needs enemies?'

Well, she talks of a 恋をすることも出来ない体, literally a body that cannot make love (though it is ambiguous whether it means physical sex or not), and Beatrice mentions alot how "love is measured in two bodies piled atop of each other". Sayo also mentions how everything would have come out if she had spent the night with George...so it is quite likely that she is really unable to have sex at all...that basically Nanjo only formed it as to look female, but it doesn't really work much, which would again hint towards a male child (missing the whole internal equipment that allows vaginal penetration and such).

Which would have been also a good reason to get her to a specialist and that makes little point of having her sex switched as she wouldn't have been able to have a decently normal life as a woman... actually, since she can't even develop the look of one she's even more troubled by it.

Well, the fact that the island exploded implies that he did change. He didn't remember, he wasn't the charming prince on a white horse, he wasn't the great detective. I think when looking at EP1 and 2 Battler there is also a lot of spite towards him that comes through in CotGW as well.
He is incompetent, he doesn't find the culprit, he does fail, he doesn't remember...

Did he really? Was child Battler a great detective? Would he have solved the epitaph? Sayo's plan is sadly very flawed. Battler can't solve the epitaph if he misses the detail Kinzo viewed Taiwan as his home and, should a real murder take place in front of him, he likely wouldn't have the same reaction of him reading of a mystery book.
Sayo is angry at him and pessimist over her chances for him to stop her. She wants him to do so but doesn't let herself believe he'll just jump off the boat, run to her, hug her and tell her 'I'm so sorry I took 6 years to be back but now I'm here to take you away'. Not that I believe this could have happened, of course, but one of the main requisites for her to spin her mystery tales is that he won't solve them so Battler can't solve them in her tales.
In Prime though it's possible Battler remembered, only he wasn't fast enough.
In Ep 5, 6, 7 & 8 it's implied Battler did so, but he did so too late. Maybe it's possible he even solved the epitaph but the siblings were simply faster than him and by the time he got there everything had already happened... though again, he still have the problem he didn't know Kinzo was from Taiwan... unless Genji gave him a hint as well, hoping this would stop Sayo but he too acted too late.

We also know that Battler remembered. Some things he remembered too late apparently, but some others, like liking Sayo he remembered early enough but let the subject drop merely because he thought he was too late as Sayo was apparently happy with George.

GuestSpeaker

2014-05-10, 07:20

I think I would have made this forum proud yesterday.

My friend fell asleep while I was over at his, so I left to go home. His door only has a deadbolt, so if you don't shut it the door swings open. Being in an apartment I didn't want to leave it open, but I didn't know where he kept the key.

So I devised a trick to shut it from the outside (I know, Beatrice would be ashamed). BUT when he asked how I did it, I told him it was magic and I turned into golden mist and passed through the keyhole. He was very confused.

GoldenLand

2014-05-10, 09:03

*applause* You are now officially a witch, GuestSpeaker.

Of course, we only have your word for it that the trick was played from outside. Actually, you could have swapped places with another person who came to rescue you and set the bolt from inside! They could then have hidden in the apartment, perhaps in the wardrobe!

GuestSpeaker

2014-05-10, 09:57

Oh I hope not, he actually keeps kitchen knives in there for some reason (he even cut himself on one last week). If they weren't careful they could die in there, and then cease to exist!

jjblue1

2014-05-10, 19:42

IceBorg

2014-05-10, 21:27

Umineko Ep 7 spoilers part 1 (http://beatotsundere.tumblr.com/post/85305813131/umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-ep7-requiem-of-the-golden) and part 2 (http://beatotsundere.tumblr.com/post/85306003301/umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-ep7-requiem-of-the-golden).
I can't read the text but it seems in Ep 2 and 3 we had multiple culprits and not just Sayo...

It's not just EP2 and 3. If you look really well you can also see that Genji is also shooting people in the first twilight of EP4. Also I think that he is also the one shooting George in that episode because of the hand you see shooting that gun.....that's not Sayo's I think.

Speaking of that, EP4 is the one I'm really interested now......from what I can see from the pages it looks like we have a EP5 situation where everyone was in a plan to trick one person but then real murders happen. In this case the target was Battler. Also I might be wrong but there's a page that shows all the murders......I wonder if the way the panels are layed out is giving the order of the murder? Does that mean Kyrie died first and Genji was last(before Sayo's suicide of course)? I don't remember EP4 that well so I don't know if that conflicts against somthing....

theacefrehley

2014-05-11, 08:08

These pages make me think that EP3 was a bit like EP Tea Party, but with Eva+Hideyoshi instead of Rudolf+Kyrie

In those pages it says
EP2: Rosa, Nanjo and Servants were bribed
Shannon Kills George and Gohda
Genji Kill the two of them (kumasawa and nanjo)

EP3
Eva killed the two of them (krauss and natsuhi)
Eva and Hideyoshi were bribed
Hideyoshi is suspected
At the mansion, Rudolf and Kyrie are killed
But Kyrie doesn't die right away
And kills Hideyoshi
Eva kills Rosa
and strangles Maria

Obviously it's just a in-universe written story, so (almost) anything goes
I don't think Eva is a serial killer :)

haguruma

2014-05-11, 08:29

How the hell did she get her frickin' hands on that chapter so fast? Did she travel through time?! The magazine only goes on sale tomorrow :frustrated:
Ah well, I will give a proper translation tomorrow...at least I hope so...but let's so what we've got so far.

So we have confirmation that Nanjo and all the servants were accomplices in EP2 and that Rosa was bribed. Also, my ideas about the difference in weapon with Nanjo's and Kumasawa's corpses were right and the thing about Genji handling knifes in that Episode really was to hint that he killed them.
Also it looks like Shannon was trying to tell George what she was doing, maybe telling him everything and he seemed to be not taking it well, leading to her killing Gohda and him.

EP3 is actually really straightforward...more than I thought. Eva and Hideyoshi were bribed, Eva killed Rosa and Maria in the garden as suspected. Hideyoshi killed Rudolph and Kyrie and was in turn shot by a dying Kyrie. And then Eva in turn killed Krauss and Natsuhi.
It's interesting how this part doesn't really touch on the two murders committed by Sayo (George and Nanjo).

EP4 has everybody except Battler being bribed. The murder in the dining hall is done by Shannon and Genji. The pictures aren't complete, but apparently George and Jessica only moved according to a script they already knew about. I'm also suspecting the order of the panels to show the order in which people died, which would imply: 5 in the dining hall (Natsuhi, Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Eva, Rosa), next Kyrie, then Krauss and Nanjo, then George, then Kumasawa and Gohda, next is Jessica, then Maria (with poison) and finally Genji and then herself.

Well, at least we have more or less proof that EP3 is not actually written by Sayo.

jjblue1

2014-05-11, 14:10

No idea. Maybe she has some special subscription so they're sent to her earlier?

Anyway I stay my case, blame me all you want but I would have preferred Sayo do the killing on her own than have robot Genji and Killer Eva work for her.
I guess in this case I would have liked more if Van Dine 12 was put at work... or maybe it's just I don't really find believable how the whole thing is handled... Ep 3 paints a rather horrible picture of Eva (and well, I won't go into Genji but I don't like how Genji is handled in Prime either).
As for George and Najo maybe the solution was given but she didn't share the scans?
There are missing pages and some scans were cropped, I don't know why.

Of course if as you say Ep 3 & 4 aren't written by Sayo but by a Tohya/Battler who started to remember things (and knew what had happened in Prime) it might make sense that the killings weren't done solely by her (though in Ep 2 too we've Genji as the murder) but at this point I wonder which was Genji's role in Prime as he too becomes one of the murders... and a quite proficent one at that.

He starts with Nanjo and Kumasawa in Ep 2. It's unclear who killed Kyrie and Rudolf, as Hideyoshi has no guns so it could have been Genji or Sayo or even Eva. In Ep 4 Genji is back in action killing Eva & Rosa (and maybe Hideyoshi, Nanjo and Krauss?) . Then he goes and kills George and I think it's likely he killed Gohda and Kumasawa while Sayo was talking with Battler. I guess as Jessica fought Ronove this can be a hint of how Genji killed Jessica as well.
I'll assume Maria was killed by Sayo though... but definitely in Ep 4 Genji's death count is quite high.

If Ep 4 was written by Tohya... has Genji already started murdering people when Kyrie and Rudolf went back after what had happened in the room of the gold? Did they found the corpses but couldn't explain how murders happened so Eva thought they killed everyone?

After all if Ep 7 is trustworthy the siblings remained in the room of the gold till past midnight and the game was supposed to start at midnight.

If Genji was set as a murderer he might have started by killing Kumasawa, Gohda, Nanjo, George, Jessica and Maria as the first 6.

In the room of the gold Eva and Hideyoshi had killed Natsuhi and Krauss and Kyrie or Rudolf might have killed Krauss and Hideyoshi (and tried to off Eva).

We assume all the guns were there due to Ep 7 Teaparty but actually I rewatched the scenes of Eva's diary and we can't see if Krauss and Rosa were holding a gun so it can be the only one having guns were Eva, Kyrie and maybe Rudolf and 1 or 2 guns were missing and whose were used by Genji.

(also I remember trying to count the guns owned by Kinzo in Ep 8 and I wasn't sure if it showed he owned 4 or 5 guns... as one picture seemed to imply they were 5... and in Ep 3 we see 4 but it can be Sayo kept one for herself)

haguruma

2014-05-11, 22:45

I guess in this case I would have liked more if Van Dine 12 was put at work... or maybe it's just I don't really find believable how the whole thing is handled... Ep 3 paints a rather horrible picture of Eva (and well, I won't go into Genji but I don't like how Genji is handled in Prime either).
Well, it does paint a stronger impression of the whole "it depends from which perspective you see the story being perceived" part that Ryukishi mentioned in the AotGW interview with KEIYA.
It basically makes EP3 into the most popular and likely idea in post-1986 after the actual events of Rokkenjima, but it also still retains the "how could George die" and "there's still things that don't add up (cfr. Nanjo)" elements that would keep people going. It does make Eva horrible person, but due to Eva-Beato there's a strong point made that this is not the actual Eva...and I can kind of go with that. I just find it almost too simple as a solution...but maybe that's just me slapping my forehead for thinking too complicated.

And Genji, again, is only story-Genji.
but at this point I wonder which was Genji's role in Prime as he too becomes one of the murders... and a quite proficent one at that.
In Sayo's stories (and by extension all post-Sayo forgeries) he can be a murderer, but the question remains if he could be one in real life. He assured her that he would stand by her and going by his past (and what we could assume about his past by where he came from and who his family was) it's likely that he might have killed before.

Btw. I reread the manga of the first 4 Episodes and finally also bothered reading the small end-commentaries by Ryukishi in each final volume. Most of the time they aren't that important, but I found it interesting what he said about EP4:
"Please, everyone, embark on this journey with 'one loving eye' and 'one eye without love'. If you ever become confused about the truth of the real world, this should yield you a modest hint...I firmly believe so."

jjblue1

2014-05-14, 18:42

Well, it does paint a stronger impression of the whole "it depends from which perspective you see the story being perceived" part that Ryukishi mentioned in the AotGW interview with KEIYA.
It basically makes EP3 into the most popular and likely idea in post-1986 after the actual events of Rokkenjima, but it also still retains the "how could George die" and "there's still things that don't add up (cfr. Nanjo)" elements that would keep people going. It does make Eva horrible person, but due to Eva-Beato there's a strong point made that this is not the actual Eva...and I can kind of go with that. I just find it almost too simple as a solution...but maybe that's just me slapping my forehead for thinking too complicated.

And Genji, again, is only story-Genji.

Well, somehow I don't really like the idea of Sayo hiring Eva or Genji as killers in her place.
In some cases I don't even think they're needed as Sayo could have done the killing just the same.
... and I want to go through Ep 3 again because somehow some scenes don't add up now... but maybe it's just me remembering them poorly.

In Sayo's stories (and by extension all post-Sayo forgeries) he can be a murderer, but the question remains if he could be one in real life. He assured her that he would stand by her and going by his past (and what we could assume about his past by where he came from and who his family was) it's likely that he might have killed before.

Well, that's the usual problem. A person can say he'll kill someone else or help someone to kill someone else but until he had done it we can never be sure if he would actually do it.

PrimeGenji might have tattled out Sayo's plan to Battler in hope he'll stop her (or given hints to the adults knowing she would stop if the epitaph was solved) and PrimeSayo, despite all her talking about killing, might have panicked when faced with the situation in which she would have to do it and be unable to press the trigger. Unless it'll come up they murdered someone on Prime we'll never know, really.

Btw. I reread the manga of the first 4 Episodes and finally also bothered reading the small end-commentaries by Ryukishi in each final volume. Most of the time they aren't that important, but I found it interesting what he said about EP4:
"Please, everyone, embark on this journey with 'one loving eye' and 'one eye without love'. If you ever become confused about the truth of the real world, this should yield you a modest hint...I firmly believe so."

Well, it sounds like a good way to go through Umineko. In a way it's inted also by the whole 'what you see with love' theme.
It's said that without love we can't see certain things but also that love can cause people to see what isn't there in the first place.

haguruma

2014-05-22, 10:19

And again she manages to have the issue earlier than me (http://beatotsundere.tumblr.com/tagged/Umineko)...somehow I'm starting to think this has a system behind it :twitch:
I searched all bookstores in the area today and the issue simply wasn't delivered yet. But at least it seems to be exactly the content I hoped for, with Ange actually reacting to the revelations that were given to her just before and not simply shrugging it off and having a 180° turn of character.

I'm not going to translate it yet, but going out again to see if I can get the issue maybe now. If not I'll have it tomorrow from the Animate in town and will give a full translation tomorrow.
Only so far, the sentence, "The land of the dead that I arrived at when I turned and ran from reality has neither happiness nor future," kind of breaks my heart.

jjblue1

2014-05-22, 17:29

And again she manages to have the issue earlier than me (http://beatotsundere.tumblr.com/tagged/Umineko)...somehow I'm starting to think this has a system behind it :twitch:

I've heard in some places manga are delivered earlier... maybe that's her trick?

I searched all bookstores in the area today and the issue simply wasn't delivered yet. But at least it seems to be exactly the content I hoped for, with Ange actually reacting to the revelations that were given to her just before and not simply shrugging it off and having a 180° turn of character.

Well, I can't really read the dialogues but the manga reaction seems more natural for her.

I'm not going to translate it yet, but going out again to see if I can get the issue maybe now. If not I'll have it tomorrow from the Animate in town and will give a full translation tomorrow.

I wish you good luck!
Only so far, the sentence, "The land of the dead that I arrived at when I turned and ran from reality has neither happiness nor future," kind of breaks my heart.

*nods* Same here.

haguruma

2014-05-23, 14:04

Here you go with chapter 25 (apparently Confession really counts as a bonus chapter, since One Truth was 24) translation. It's a really great chapter and tackles alot of problems...and basically admits that everybody was horrible as an actual person due to circumstance.Though I still think that Shinju will go largely misunderstood with the western audience...

There, floating in the ocean of nothingness is...
Krauss:
Well, this is typical of father, but that's absolutely no present for a little girl

Rudolph:
It looks a little like a talisman

Kyrie:
Alrighty, it scared you didn't it?!
I'm sorry Natsuhi-neesan, this must be hell for your migraine

Natsuhi:
It's alright.
It reminds me of when Jessica was little.

Eva:
Must be so nice to have a girl.

Hideyoshi:
She's a real angel, even though he cries a lot

Maria:
Mama! Flowers!

Rosa:
Maria, where did you get these...
I'm sorry big brother

Krauss:
Hahaha, don't worry, those roses'll grow back

Maria:
Mama, you look like a princess!

Rosa:
Oh, this girl...

Maria:
Here! A flower for Ange too!

Battler:
Wow, you are so pretty Ange
That's my little sister

Ange:
Ehehe

Ange:
I am the lady of the Ushiromiya house
Big brother, can't you live with us from now on?
I want you to stay!
I want all of us to be together!

Ange:
Uh...ngh...

Kyrie:
Oh, thank God
You finally came to, Ange

Chapter 25: The Cage of Obligations

Ange:
Every...one...?
Where...am I...?

Maria:
In the Golden Land
Beato accidentally found you floating about in the waves of the ocean of nothingness

Ange:
All because...I jumped in the Capital of Books...

Beato:
You were in horrible shape
It took quite some time until you even remembered this form.....

Rudolph:
Ange...we were all waiting for you to come back

Kyrie:
Because you kept wishing that you could join us all here, you were able to come here...
*PUSH*
...Ange...
...so you learned the One Truth

Beato:
You...
That red Fragment...it couldn't be...

Ange:
It just floated in! Into my mind that had been torn to shreds...
Your shitty confession...

Beato:
I see....
....
For you of all people to...the goddess of fate must truly hate me...

Ange:
I don't understand anything anymore!
What am I supposed to be able to believe...?!
What am I supposed to despise?!
What should I do...??

Rudolph/Kyrie:
.......
.......

Eva:
Ange-chan...

Beato:
If you have seen it all then you should already understand.
That something for you to hate.
You have to hate me.
It is my fault
I have taken your family from you
I took your family from you
and a chance of a future from your family

Ange:
...
Is this a joke?
Do you wanna tell me it was a witch again?
That nobody has to sin as long as the witch is to blame?!

Beato:
...
I am talking as the human culprit
I was the one who gave rise to that tragedy
I have taken all their lives in countless Fragments
Even if the actual outcome was different, I did kill them all
Even with this outcome, I am still at the center of it all
This result was nothing more than me cornering the adults into a situation that led to violence
Because of my circumstances they all lost their lives
Had I never created that plan, this tragedy would probably not have occured...
I think...
I would have been able to save them all...
Had I really thought the world to be that fleeting
I would have been able to die alone
If I were to die
would he cry over me?
I am sure he would cry and cry until his tears dried
and one day, as if nothing had ever happened he would move on with somebody else
No
I don't want anybody else to have him
Everyone must think so
Something so dangerous can only become a seed for anguish
Being the master of that room I could have destroyed it or thrown it all into the sea...
Just by that nobody would have had to die in the end, right?
But I did not...
At that time I didn't even see that option
I didn't even try to see it
All because I had abandoned every choice and future
It's ironic
I always considered happiness to be something that God or others bestow upon you
Always the passive one
Indulging in sweet delusions
I was running away from reality and living a lie of happiness
I ran
and ran
and ran
And because I kept running, reality never changed
I chose this place as my final escape
Listen Ange
If I had lived in this body
I might have experienced untold happiness
Had I searched for an option that I was unable to see...
If I had been able to live in reality
Had I at least tried to hold out my hand without fear...
I think
there would have been a completely different outcome in store for me...
One where I might have clutched unto it, in that moment where I was able to think that living might not be that bad.......
You could say
The possibilities were endless
But by simply doing nothing I undid them all
I simply locked the future out
I crushed that possibility
And in my selfishness I ripped all of their futures away with it and locked them into a dead end
You should just hate me without ever thinking of forgiving me
You have every right to hate me till the end of your days
I am sorry, Ange
And you too
My one-winged family

Maria:
Ange...don't be mean to Beato

Beato:
It's alright, Maria
It's alright...

Kinzo:
He
Hehahahaha

Natsuhi:
Father...?

Kinzo:
Listen, Beatrice

Kinzo:
I can no longer sit idly by and watch you shoulder all of this
All these sins are rooted in the errors I committed
To request forgiveness from a dead person
My sins have taken root in this family and will never disappear
It was me who forced Beatrice into that thorny destiny
This outcome is the result of my mistakes
.....
And I think there is a considerable number of people that agree

Beato:
Kinzo.....
you......

Nanjo:
That might be so but...
If I had been able to call you out on your mistakes as a friend at least...

Genji:
And I am to blame that Lady Beatrice could not be saved from her cruel destiny
I knew everything, so I should have protected and guided her along, even if that hat violated my oath as a servant

Kumasawa:
And I was the one who taught her about magic
I should have intervened, as the mother who raised her, when she started using it as a tool to make unpleasent things disappear to her...

Beato:
You...you too...

Rudolph:
...
...yeah, that's right
There not even room for excuses
We're sorry for not being the parents that you could be proud of,
Ange...
Stiring the flames
Threatening one another
Clutching on to money
Constantly going on like this, was the sin that invited this outcome in

Hideyoshi:
We were all supposed to be people that Ange could have been proud of...but in that regard we were all too far from it.....

Maria:
Uh, could I have gotten along better with you if I had been a better girl?

Rosa:
No, I should have accepted you more

George:
If I had just paid a little bit more attention to my girlfriend
I was often scared by her eyes that seemed to tell me something
But I averted my eyes and kept talking only of dreams
If I had just been a stronger man that she could have depended on to ease her mind, I might have been able to save her

Jessica:
And I...if I...had just been a better best friend that Shannon could have opened her heart to
Because I think, it was due to our many mistakes and moments when we just failed to understand that this day ended in a dead-end.
Through an accumulation of sins

Ange:
Like sediment
it piled up
became muddy
mixed together
and became inescapable
That is why...
I finally understand
The tragedy that happened on that day is not one single person's fault
it was all destined
through the karma that piled up on this family

Ange:
If they had all made choices that they were unable to see, as Beato said
and pry away all that dirt
we might have all had a very different future, right?!
And even though that will never come true now
Or maybe exactly because of that?
My big brother showed me all these dreams overflowing from the catbox...

Beato:
It is quite cynical that it took you to come here in order to notice that

Maria:
It was because she managed to come here

Beato:
And because there are no ties binding us in the Golden Land
We can all admit our errors and forgive one another
It was all too difficult for all of us I suppose
I would have liked to see a future where we could do this while being alive
Ange
It must have been so hard to live through these 12 years
The chain of misfortune that we shouldered is still causing you pain even after 12 years have passed
You said so, right?!
You lived by entertaining sweet delusions, like a ghost
That you did not need a future where nobody came back for you
Isn't that kind of similar to what I did?
That is why we say it
Even if you were to sink into the world of suffering again, we will say it
Live, Ange
Laugh
and love
You should encounter so many things that move your heart
If there is no happiness in reality, then you should search for it or create it yourself
Live in order to make reality shine
Because, the land of the dead you arrive at when turning and running from reality has neither happiness nor future
At the very end you faced the truth head on,
so live now and grasp your happiness
Ange

jjblue1

2014-05-23, 14:55

Here you go with chapter 25 (apparently Confession really counts as a bonus chapter, since One Truth was 24) translation. It's a really great chapter and tackles alot of problems...and basically admits that everybody was horrible as an actual person due to circumstance.Though I still think that Shinju will go largely misunderstood with the western audience...

There, floating in the ocean of nothingness is...
Krauss:
Well, this is typical of father, but that's absolutely no present for a little girl
Rudolph:
It looks a littl like a talisman
Kyrie:
Alrighty, it scared you didn't it?!
I'm sorry Natsuhi-neesan, this must be hell for your migraine
Natsuhi:
It's alright.
It reminds me of when Jessica was little.
Eva:
Must be so nice to have a girl.
Hideyoshi:
She's a real angel, even though he cries a lot
Maria:
Mama! Flowers!
Rosa:
Maria, where did you get these...
I'm sorry big brother
Krauss:
Hahaha, don't worry, those roses'll grow back
Maria:
Mama, you look like a princess!
Rosa:
Oh, this girl...
Maria:
Here! A flower for Ange too!
Battler:
Wow, you are so pretty Ange
That's my little sister
Ange:
Ehehe
Ange:
I am the lady of the Ushiromiya house
Big brother, can't you live with us from now on?
I want you to stay!
I want all of us to be together!
Ange:
Uh...ngh...
Kyrie:
Oh, thank God
You finally came to, Ange

Chapter 25: The Cage of Obligations

Ange:
Every...one...?
Where...am I...?
Maria:
In the Golden Land
Beato accidentally found you floating about in the waves of the ocean of nothingness
Ange:
All because...I jumped in the Capital of Books...

Beato:
You were in horrible shape
It took quite some time until you even remembered this form.....

Rudolph:
Ange...we were all waiting for you to come back
Kyrie:
Because you kept wishing that you could join us all here, you were able to come here...
*PUSH*
...Ange...
...so you learned the One Truth
Beato:
You...
That red Fragment...it couldn't be...
Ange:
It just floated in! Into my mind that had been torn to shreds...
Your shitty confession...
Beato:
I see....
....
For you of all people to...the goddess of fate must truly hate me...

Ange:
I don't understand anything anymore!
What am I supposed to be able to believe...?!
What am I supposed to despise?!
What should I do...??

Rudolph/Kyrie:
.......
.......

Eva:
Ange-chan...

Beato:
If you have seen it all then you should already understand.
That something for you to hate.
You have to hate me.
It is my fault
I have taken your family from you
I took your family from you
and a chance of a future from your family

Ange:
...
Is this a joke?
Do you wanna tell me it was a witch again?
That nobody has to sin as long as the witch is to blame?!

Beato:
...
I am talking as the human culprit
I was the one who gave rise to that tragedy
I have taken all their lives in countless Fragments
Even if the actual outcome was different, I did kill them all
Even with this outcome, I am still at the center of it all
This result was nothing more than me cornering the adults into a situation that led to violence
Because of my circumstances they all lost their lives
Had I never created that plan, this tragedy would probably not have occured...
I think...
I would have been able to save them all...
Had I really thought the world to be that fleeting
I would have been able to die alone
If I were to die
would he cry over me?
I am sure he would cry and cry until his tears dried
and one day, as if nothing had ever happened he would move on with somebody else
No
I don't want anybody else to have him
Everyone must think so
Something so dangerous can only become a seed for anguish
Being the master of that room I could have destroyed it or thrown it all into the sea...
Just by that nobody would have had to die in the end, right?
But I did not...
At that time I didn't even see that option
I didn't even try to see it
All because I had abandoned every choice and future
It's ironic
I always considered happiness to be something that God or others bestow upon you
Always the passive one
Indulging in sweet delusions
I was running away from reality and living a lie of happiness
I ran
and ran
and ran
And because I kept running, reality never changed
I chose this place as my final escape
Listen Ange
If I had lived in this body
I might have experienced untold happiness
Had I searched for an option that I was unable to see...
If I had been able to live in reality
Had I at least tried to hold out my hand without fear...
I think
there would have been a completely different outcome in store for me...
One where I might have clutched unto it, in that moment where I was able to think that living might not be that bad.......
You could say
The possibilities were endless
But by simply doing nothing I undid them all
I simply locked the future out
I crushed that possibility
And in my selfishness I ripped all of their futures away with it and locked them into a dead end
You should just hate me without ever thinking of forgiving me
You have every right to hate me till the end of your days
I am sorry, Ange
And you too
My one-winged family
Maria:
Ange...don't be mean to Beato

Beato:
It's alright, Maria
It's alright...

Kinzo:
He
Hehahahaha

Natsuhi:
Father...?

Kinzo:
Listen, Beatrice

Kinzo:
I can no longer sit idly by and watch you shoulder all of this
All these sins are rooted in the errors I committed
To request forgiveness from a dead person
My sins have taken root in this family and will never disappear
It was me who forced Beatrice into that thorny destiny
This outcome is the result of my mistakes
.....
And I think there is a considerable number of people that agree

Beato:
Kinzo.....
you......

Nanjo:
That might be so but...
If I had been able to call you out on your mistakes as a friend at least...
Genji:
And I am to blame that Lady Beatrice could not be saved from her cruel destiny
I knew everything, so I should have protected and guided her along, even if that hat violated my oath as a servant
Kumasawa:
And I was the one who taught her about magic
I should have intervened, as the mother who raised her, when she started using it as a tool to make unpleasent things disappear to her...
Beato:
You...you too...

Rudolph:
...
...yeah, that's right
There not even room for excuses
We're sorry for not being the parents that you could be proud of,
Ange...
Stiring the flames
Threatening one another
Clutching on to money
Constantly going on like this, was the sin that invited this outcome in
Hideyoshi:
We were all supposed to be people that Ange could have been proud of...but in that regard we were all too far from it.....
Maria:
Uh, could I have gotten along better with you if I had been a better girl?
Rosa:
No, I should have accepted you more
George:
If I had just paid a little bit more attention to my girlfriend
I was often scared by her eyes that seemed to tell me something
But I averted my eyes and kept talking only of dreams
If I had just been a stronger man that she could have depended on to ease her mind, I might have been able to save her
Jessica:
And I...if I...had just been a better best friend that Shannon could have opened her heart to
Because I think, it was due to our many mistakes and moments when we just failed to understand that this day ended in a dead-end.
Through an accumulation of sins
Ange:
Like sediment
it piled up
became muddy
mixed together
and became inescapable
That is why...
I finally understand
The tragedy that happened on that day is not one single person's fault
it was all destined
through the karma that piled up on this family
Ange:
If they had all made choices that they were unable to see, as Beato said
and pry away all that dirt
we might have all had a very different future, right?!
And even though that will never come true now
Or maybe exactly because of that?
My big brother showed me all these dreams overflowing from the catbox...Ange:
If they had all made choices that they were unable to see, as Beato said
and pry away all that dirt
we might have all had a very different future, right?!
And even though that will never come true now
Or maybe exactly because of that?
My big brother showed me all these dreams overflowing from the catbox...
Beato:
It is quite cynical that it took you to come here in order to notice that

Maria:
It was because she managed to come here

Beato:
And because there are no ties binding us in the Golden Land
We can all admit our errors and forgive one another
It was all too difficult for all of us I suppose
I would have liked to see a future where we could do this while being alive
Ange
It must have been so hard to live through these 12 years
The chain of misfortune that we shouldered is still causing you pain even after 12 years have passed
You said so, right?!
You lived by entertaining sweet delusions, like a ghost
That you did not need a future where nobody came back for you
Isn't that kind of similar to what I did?
That is why we say it
Even if you were to sink into the world of suffering again, we will say it
Live, Ange
Laugh
and love
You should encounter so many things that move your heart
If there is no happiness in reality, then you should search for it or create it yourself
Live in order to make reality shine
Because, the land of the dead you arrive at when turning and running from reality has neither happiness nor future
At the very end you faced the truth head on,
so live now and grasp your happiness
Ange

As usual many, many, MANY thanks for the translation!

Yes, this works much better than the VN as far as I'm involved. It explains Battler's message better as well as it gives Ange a better reason to change her way of thinking than just 'truth is bad so it doesn't matter'. Also Ange's reaction to everything seems more natural.

And I've apprecciated how everyone is shown regretting his faults but at the same time feeling trapped by his own circumstances and fear to the point he refused making a better choice.

(and uhm... I would like to see the scene in which Beato wonders if he would cry for her and then claims he would and then move over and she doesn't want this)

In a way is more fitting to have Beato help Ange to think as their circumstances were similar in a way.

At the same time it's a pity Ange's parents are rather passive and... where's Battler? I guess they wanted to keep the scene with him and Ange talking privately but it feels weird he's not there... not that it could be because if he were I fear he would have stolen Beato's spot light...

Oh well, we'll see in the next chapters...

Also it's interesting.
So this is chap 25.
So we basically had 4 chapters considered extra ("Interlude Hachijo Ikuko" and the 3 chapters of Confession).

And... hum... even though Beato thinks she's pretty unlucky if Ange can understand her confession and forgive her I think it's not a bad thing she had 'read' it... but although it makes sense in the meta I'm not sure the same could have happened to Prime Ange... unless that too was in the diary or the Hachijo sent her that message bottle?

Oh well, we'll see...

haguruma

2014-05-24, 04:03

Yes, this works much better than the VN as far as I'm involved. It explains Battler's message better as well as it gives Ange a better reason to change her way of thinking than just 'truth is bad so it doesn't matter'. Also Ange's reaction to everything seems more natural.
Well, the message was there from the very beginning, it was just really awkwardly inserted into the VN version of EP8, which proably made alot of people misunderstand what Battler's idea behind the whole shennanigans actually was. It also gives the character a little bit of redemptemtion, since they are actually portrayed as "worrying too much" about Ange's reaction towards the One Truth and end up driving her towards it.

I really found Beato's speech wonderful, since she (and the other family members) are really depicted as caring about Ange, it gives the character the proper background for what we were obviously expected to feel when reading EP8 back then.

And I've apprecciated how everyone is shown regretting his faults but at the same time feeling trapped by his own circumstances and fear to the point he refused making a better choice.
Yes, it really makes the characters seem rounder. You could argue how believable it is that nobody did anything, especially Genji with his whole loyalty thing...but since the characters are drawn that way I can accept it.

(and uhm... I would like to see the scene in which Beato wonders if he would cry for her and then claims he would and then move over and she doesn't want this)
I'll try to make a copy of it later, but it's just a few panels showing Sayo writing and then it already moves on to the ingots sinking into the ocean.
Btw. I really liked that they made Beato consider this, when she said that as the master of that room she could have destroyed "it" or thrown "it" into the sea. It's clearly the gold that she deems as harmful and a seed for discord, since this will (if it's included) give the scene where she throws herself into the ocean with the ingot a lot more meaning.
And when she is talking about how she was even too scared of living in the real world when that moment to "hold on to it while thinking that living might not be as bad" it shows two hands reaching for each other...so it could very clearly be an allusion to her suicide on the boat.

At the same time it's a pity Ange's parents are rather passive and... where's Battler?
It's interesting that Battler isn't there, isn't it? But doesn't it also make a whole lot of sense? When she is witnessing this moment in what Maria and Beato call the Golden Land, all the people in that scene are dead (Eva has just died, so she would naturally be there too). Beato later even says that this is the land of death.
Yes, Battler was there before and joins them later, but thematically in this scene, it makes sense for him to be absent and is also a huge hint for the people who don't know the end yet.

Oh well, we'll see in the next chapters...

Also it's interesting.
So this is chap 25.
So we basically had 4 chapters considered extra ("Interlude Hachijo Ikuko" and the 3 chapters of Confession).
Yeah, that also explains why they didn't release a new tankobon in spring, even though they have 8 uncollected chapters together already. I suppose they will put Confession into a seperate bonus-feature maybe?

but although it makes sense in the meta I'm not sure the same could have happened to Prime Ange... unless that too was in the diary or the Hachijo sent her that message bottle?
Yeah, I'm still wondering how they are attempting to tie these two plots together. Since there was also Beato's comment that Ange was in "a horrible shape" and "it took time for her to even remember her original form" after she jumped off the railing in the Capital of Books/the building where she met Bern...
I do wonder if she actually did jump and injure herself and that is what rattled Tohya up...or if this is metaphorical and she got all these things sent to her...

There's also still the plot of Ikuko holding the press conference over the content of Eva's diary...which is still ongoing...that makes me wonder how that ties into events. If she has the diary, how could Ange have read it?!

Well, maybe we are just supposed to believe in the existence of witches on this one level...that Ange was actually shown all these things...though it seems weird

renosm

2014-05-24, 08:14

Here you go with chapter 25 (apparently Confession really counts as a bonus chapter, since One Truth was 24) translation. It's a really great chapter and tackles alot of problems...and basically admits that everybody was horrible as an actual person due to circumstance.Though I still think that Shinju will go largely misunderstood with the western audience...

There, floating in the ocean of nothingness is...
Krauss:
Well, this is typical of father, but that's absolutely no present for a little girl
Rudolph:
It looks a littl like a talisman
Kyrie:
Alrighty, it scared you didn't it?!
I'm sorry Natsuhi-neesan, this must be hell for your migraine
Natsuhi:
It's alright.
It reminds me of when Jessica was little.
Eva:
Must be so nice to have a girl.
Hideyoshi:
She's a real angel, even though he cries a lot
Maria:
Mama! Flowers!
Rosa:
Maria, where did you get these...
I'm sorry big brother
Krauss:
Hahaha, don't worry, those roses'll grow back
Maria:
Mama, you look like a princess!
Rosa:
Oh, this girl...
Maria:
Here! A flower for Ange too!
Battler:
Wow, you are so pretty Ange
That's my little sister
Ange:
Ehehe
Ange:
I am the lady of the Ushiromiya house
Big brother, can't you live with us from now on?
I want you to stay!
I want all of us to be together!
Ange:
Uh...ngh...
Kyrie:
Oh, thank God
You finally came to, Ange

Chapter 25: The Cage of Obligations

Ange:
Every...one...?
Where...am I...?
Maria:
In the Golden Land
Beato accidentally found you floating about in the waves of the ocean of nothingness
Ange:
All because...I jumped in the Capital of Books...

Beato:
You were in horrible shape
It took quite some time until you even remembered this form.....

Rudolph:
Ange...we were all waiting for you to come back
Kyrie:
Because you kept wishing that you could join us all here, you were able to come here...
*PUSH*
...Ange...
...so you learned the One Truth
Beato:
You...
That red Fragment...it couldn't be...
Ange:
It just floated in! Into my mind that had been torn to shreds...
Your shitty confession...
Beato:
I see....
....
For you of all people to...the goddess of fate must truly hate me...

Ange:
I don't understand anything anymore!
What am I supposed to be able to believe...?!
What am I supposed to despise?!
What should I do...??

Rudolph/Kyrie:
.......
.......

Eva:
Ange-chan...

Beato:
If you have seen it all then you should already understand.
That something for you to hate.
You have to hate me.
It is my fault
I have taken your family from you
I took your family from you
and a chance of a future from your family

Ange:
...
Is this a joke?
Do you wanna tell me it was a witch again?
That nobody has to sin as long as the witch is to blame?!

Beato:
...
I am talking as the human culprit
I was the one who gave rise to that tragedy
I have taken all their lives in countless Fragments
Even if the actual outcome was different, I did kill them all
Even with this outcome, I am still at the center of it all
This result was nothing more than me cornering the adults into a situation that led to violence
Because of my circumstances they all lost their lives
Had I never created that plan, this tragedy would probably not have occured...
I think...
I would have been able to save them all...
Had I really thought the world to be that fleeting
I would have been able to die alone
If I were to die
would he cry over me?
I am sure he would cry and cry until his tears dried
and one day, as if nothing had ever happened he would move on with somebody else
No
I don't want anybody else to have him
Everyone must think so
Something so dangerous can only become a seed for anguish
Being the master of that room I could have destroyed it or thrown it all into the sea...
Just by that nobody would have had to die in the end, right?
But I did not...
At that time I didn't even see that option
I didn't even try to see it
All because I had abandoned every choice and future
It's ironic
I always considered happiness to be something that God or others bestow upon you
Always the passive one
Indulging in sweet delusions
I was running away from reality and living a lie of happiness
I ran
and ran
and ran
And because I kept running, reality never changed
I chose this place as my final escape
Listen Ange
If I had lived in this body
I might have experienced untold happiness
Had I searched for an option that I was unable to see...
If I had been able to live in reality
Had I at least tried to hold out my hand without fear...
I think
there would have been a completely different outcome in store for me...
One where I might have clutched unto it, in that moment where I was able to think that living might not be that bad.......
You could say
The possibilities were endless
But by simply doing nothing I undid them all
I simply locked the future out
I crushed that possibility
And in my selfishness I ripped all of their futures away with it and locked them into a dead end
You should just hate me without ever thinking of forgiving me
You have every right to hate me till the end of your days
I am sorry, Ange
And you too
My one-winged family
Maria:
Ange...don't be mean to Beato

Beato:
It's alright, Maria
It's alright...

Kinzo:
He
Hehahahaha

Natsuhi:
Father...?

Kinzo:
Listen, Beatrice

Kinzo:
I can no longer sit idly by and watch you shoulder all of this
All these sins are rooted in the errors I committed
To request forgiveness from a dead person
My sins have taken root in this family and will never disappear
It was me who forced Beatrice into that thorny destiny
This outcome is the result of my mistakes
.....
And I think there is a considerable number of people that agree

Beato:
Kinzo.....
you......

Nanjo:
That might be so but...
If I had been able to call you out on your mistakes as a friend at least...
Genji:
And I am to blame that Lady Beatrice could not be saved from her cruel destiny
I knew everything, so I should have protected and guided her along, even if that hat violated my oath as a servant
Kumasawa:
And I was the one who taught her about magic
I should have intervened, as the mother who raised her, when she started using it as a tool to make unpleasent things disappear to her...
Beato:
You...you too...

Rudolph:
...
...yeah, that's right
There not even room for excuses
We're sorry for not being the parents that you could be proud of,
Ange...
Stiring the flames
Threatening one another
Clutching on to money
Constantly going on like this, was the sin that invited this outcome in
Hideyoshi:
We were all supposed to be people that Ange could have been proud of...but in that regard we were all too far from it.....
Maria:
Uh, could I have gotten along better with you if I had been a better girl?
Rosa:
No, I should have accepted you more
George:
If I had just paid a little bit more attention to my girlfriend
I was often scared by her eyes that seemed to tell me something
But I averted my eyes and kept talking only of dreams
If I had just been a stronger man that she could have depended on to ease her mind, I might have been able to save her
Jessica:
And I...if I...had just been a better best friend that Shannon could have opened her heart to
Because I think, it was due to our many mistakes and moments when we just failed to understand that this day ended in a dead-end.
Through an accumulation of sins
Ange:
Like sediment
it piled up
became muddy
mixed together
and became inescapable
That is why...
I finally understand
The tragedy that happened on that day is not one single person's fault
it was all destined
through the karma that piled up on this family
Ange:
If they had all made choices that they were unable to see, as Beato said
and pry away all that dirt
we might have all had a very different future, right?!
And even though that will never come true now
Or maybe exactly because of that?
My big brother showed me all these dreams overflowing from the catbox...Ange:
If they had all made choices that they were unable to see, as Beato said
and pry away all that dirt
we might have all had a very different future, right?!
And even though that will never come true now
Or maybe exactly because of that?
My big brother showed me all these dreams overflowing from the catbox...
Beato:
It is quite cynical that it took you to come here in order to notice that

Maria:
It was because she managed to come here

Beato:
And because there are no ties binding us in the Golden Land
We can all admit our errors and forgive one another
It was all too difficult for all of us I suppose
I would have liked to see a future where we could do this while being alive
Ange
It must have been so hard to live through these 12 years
The chain of misfortune that we shouldered is still causing you pain even after 12 years have passed
You said so, right?!
You lived by entertaining sweet delusions, like a ghost
That you did not need a future where nobody came back for you
Isn't that kind of similar to what I did?
That is why we say it
Even if you were to sink into the world of suffering again, we will say it
Live, Ange
Laugh
and love
You should encounter so many things that move your heart
If there is no happiness in reality, then you should search for it or create it yourself
Live in order to make reality shine
Because, the land of the dead you arrive at when turning and running from reality has neither happiness nor future
At the very end you faced the truth head on,
so live now and grasp your happiness
Ange

First of all, let me say I cannot thank you enough for all these translations! I am refreshing all the time whenever I'm waiting for you to translate a new chapter!

I've been following this thread for a long time, but I've finally decided to make an account so that I'm able to post myself. I have to admit that all this new content from the episode 8 manga has left me completely dumbfounded. It painted Sayo's story in a whole new light than the EP7 vn, making it way more harsh and tragic. Simply the fact that we are finally able to see things that were left completely to our imagination before now (the panel with the Shannon and Kanon masks still haunts me) has had an enormous impact on me. It feels good that the reasons for the crime we've all been suspecting inside our heads are now printed on paper for us to read.

It is indeed sad that the lid of the catbox has been taken off and all of its contents are getting revealed. However, I believe this is something that had to happen eventually. Ange's reaction to the one truth is way more natural and realistic this time around and I found her whole conversation with Beato very touching. I am quite certain that if the EP8 vn had gone about the story in the same way as the manga we would have all been wailing like little girls while reading it.

Despite my love for all these new chapters (both EP7 and EP8), there are a few things that bother me regarding the current revelations:

1. This is the least important, but I find it quite difficult to wrap my head around the murdering Genji idea. I always thought that he knew murders where actually occurring and that he was assisting Sayo with them in some way. However, I cannot really picture him as a killer. I believe this has been already mentioned, but I find it kind of pointless to have him kill people as well, when Sayo could most likely go through with it on her own.

2. I think it is still not clear how Eva managed to move Krauss and Natsuhi's corpses all the way under the arbor after strangling them. Am I missing something or has it not been explained yet? Also, are we supposed to deduce that it was her that staked them, based on the mistaken placement of the stakes?

3. Finally, I am way too confused regarding Maria's rose. When we first got the Book of One Truth chapter it showed that the whole rose scenario actually did happen. This automatically made me think that all the bottle stories were written post-incident and therefore included this part. But then the Confession clarified the stories were all written and released before the conference. So what's actually going on here? I can only see two possibilities:

a) "Maria's Rose" is not mentioned in the original bottle stories and was later implemented in a meta layer of each story in the same way the meta world scenes and the fantasy scenes were implemented.

b) "Maria's Rose" was an event orchestrated by Sayo in collaboration with Maria in order for her to find a chance to hand her the invitation letter. Maria could have been told to take care of any sickly looking roses or something like that. Even though this scenario would explain the inclusion of the rose part in the stories it somehow seems a bit forced or maybe too far fetched. I thought the rose scene seemed way too natural and random to be something devised by Sayo. Then again, maybe the fact that it kept happening was a hint that something was repeatedly causing it.

Uberzaki

2014-05-24, 10:51

Welcome Resosm,

Your question about Eva moving the two corpses is indeed a mystery, while I have not come to a specific conclusion, I will leave you with a cryptic hint:

WOLF AND SHEEP PUZZLE.

Also remember that their deaths may have been faked for whatever reason.

As for your question about the rose, I cannot give a comprehensive answer since I have no precise theoy of my own. There is a scene near the beginning of EP7 (I cannot remember which, since my notes only cover the question arcs at the moment) where Will and Lion see a rose wilt due to being outside of their Kakera. A meta role would imply that the rose wilts when the island (catbox) becomes closed off as a gesture of symbolism.
Other posters will probably mention, and further elaborate, that we have no real clue about the Rose's role in the original bottle stories or Prime, and that the different writers of the stories confuses the basis of the motif even further.

I hope that helps even a little bit.

haguruma

2014-05-24, 11:06

Regarding the rose:
CotGW basically all out confirms that this was a plot devised between Sayo and Maria to create a situation in which they would meet. If there actually was a rose (since EP2 makes no further mention of it, considering that the meeting between Maria and Beato happens differently this time around) is I think of no further concern, it is more that this was an early hint that Maria was in on it (considering her insistency that the rose MUST BE FOUND, even going so far as threatening her mother in EP3.

CotGW shows Maria pointing towards the rose when Sayo talks about how Maria's role is to read the letter that she studied way in advance. This also explains how Maria was able to read that letter, because she had probably studied it for a few months already.

Witch of Uncertainty

2014-05-24, 12:19

In ep 3, the Narrative also points out that when Rosa agreed to go check the rose, Maria stopped crying so quickly that it seemed rehearsed.

renosm

2014-05-25, 05:09

Regarding the rose:
CotGW basically all out confirms that this was a plot devised between Sayo and Maria to create a situation in which they would meet.

So that was actually the case! Well, I guess it does make sense. I remember someone had once compared Maria looking for the withered rose to Maria looking for her lost keys in EP4. That's probably the reason it was hard for me to think of the whole thing as a fake scenario to arrange a meeting.

even going so far as threatening her mother in EP3

I just bought the two volumes of the EP3 manga and I have to say that Kei Natsumi's work is phenomenal! The funny thing is, I happened to stumble upon the scene with Maria being all creepy about seeing her rose, a little while after posting here! It made me rethink the possibility of it being a part of Sayo's plot.

Your question about Eva moving the two corpses is indeed a mystery, while I have not come to a specific conclusion, I will leave you with a cryptic hint:

WOLF AND SHEEP PUZZLE.

So basically Sayo and Eva moved them together? (or was it Nanjo too?) That could be the case since we learned that they were actually working together on the murders. I don't think Krauss and Natsuhi's deaths were faked. In Will's solution you can clearly see them getting strangled by Eva (and in the guesthouse lobby for that matter)!

To tell the truth the means of moving the corpses had always puzzled me a bit. Even in the first twilight murders of the first game wouldn't it be a pain for Genji and Sayo to move six adult corpses all the way to the garden shed? I always assumed that the wheelbarrow used to move the fertilizer on Kanon's first appearance was the way the bodies were moved! We are shown that it can be used by Sayo alone to move a lot of weight, so why not use it for the bodies as well?

jjblue1

2014-05-25, 07:58

Well, the message was there from the very beginning, it was just really awkwardly inserted into the VN version of EP8, which proably made alot of people misunderstand what Battler's idea behind the whole shennanigans actually was. It also gives the character a little bit of redemptemtion, since they are actually portrayed as "worrying too much" about Ange's reaction towards the One Truth and end up driving her towards it.

Honestly it was so awkwardly inserted than more that 'if they had made the right choices tragedy wouldn't have happened' it seemed 'if they had been put in a different setting tragedy wouldn't have happened'.

There are a lot of wrong choices in Ep 8 that aren't taken merely because there's no need for them to be taken. Beato, Shannon and Kanon have apparently separate bodies and are accepted and happy in their love stories, Kinzo is alive so Krauss won't have to hide his death, the siblings don't suspect Krauss of hiding Kinzo's death so they aren't divided in two factions, Krauss is secure in his position and not overly stressed by his failing business and by hiding Kinzo's death... actually the siblings don't even seem that desperate for money and anyway Kinzo split the inheritance so everything seems fine.
Rudolf's confession to Kyrie is an extra not witnessed by Ange and there was no moment between Rosa and Maria.

The message seems more that people did bad things because of the circumstances they were in than due to the choices they took.

I really found Beato's speech wonderful, since she (and the other family members) are really depicted as caring about Ange, it gives the character the proper background for what we were obviously expected to feel when reading EP8 back then.

I agree. I love how Ep 8 worked to create a connection, a parallel between Beato and Ange's situation that basically culminates in this moment.

I'll try to make a copy of it later, but it's just a few panels showing Sayo writing and then it already moves on to the ingots sinking into the ocean.

Thank you, you're awesome!

Btw. I really liked that they made Beato consider this, when she said that as the master of that room she could have destroyed "it" or thrown "it" into the sea. It's clearly the gold that she deems as harmful and a seed for discord, since this will (if it's included) give the scene where she throws herself into the ocean with the ingot a lot more meaning.
And when she is talking about how she was even too scared of living in the real world when that moment to "hold on to it while thinking that living might not be as bad" it shows two hands reaching for each other...so it could very clearly be an allusion to her suicide on the boat.

Yes, I've noticed the parallel and it's really, really sad. Really, Sayo seems the embodiement of Murphy's law. Nothing can work for her...

It's interesting that Battler isn't there, isn't it? But doesn't it also make a whole lot of sense? When she is witnessing this moment in what Maria and Beato call the Golden Land, all the people in that scene are dead (Eva has just died, so she would naturally be there too). Beato later even says that this is the land of death.
Yes, Battler was there before and joins them later, but thematically in this scene, it makes sense for him to be absent and is also a huge hint for the people who don't know the end yet.

Yes, it makes sense for me who know what'll happen afterward but if I look at the scene pretending I hadn't read yet Umineko it feels very weird for him not to be there, without Ange asking where he is or anyone providing he's... busy doing something.

Yeah, that also explains why they didn't release a new tankobon in spring, even though they have 8 uncollected chapters together already. I suppose they will put Confession into a seperate bonus-feature maybe?

They could but I have the feeling it would work better if they were to keep everything in order instead than printing the volumes going by chapter progression and print the Confession separately... even if it can stand alone as a bonus story. Besides... what about the Ikuko interlude?

Yeah, I'm still wondering how they are attempting to tie these two plots together. Since there was also Beato's comment that Ange was in "a horrible shape" and "it took time for her to even remember her original form" after she jumped off the railing in the Capital of Books/the building where she met Bern...
I do wonder if she actually did jump and injure herself and that is what rattled Tohya up...or if this is metaphorical and she got all these things sent to her...

There's also still the plot of Ikuko holding the press conference over the content of Eva's diary...which is still ongoing...that makes me wonder how that ties into events. If she has the diary, how could Ange have read it?!

Well, maybe we are just supposed to believe in the existence of witches on this one level...that Ange was actually shown all these things...though it seems weird

My guess was that when Eva died Ange found the diary and read it and then abandoned it there and, rejecting the truth in it ended up on the top of a building.

The problem is Confession. Did Eva found it, placed it with her diary to hide it and so Ange read that one too and Ikuko finding it was actually different from how it's described?

Did Ikuko found it and sent it to Ange?
It's after all in Featherine's library and Ange finds it and take it in her hands and this might have implied she ended up reading it.

After all, when we see Ange's body there are fragments near her who disappeared so it can be implied she kept it?

And that's why she later says it fleed in her mind?

1. This is the least important, but I find it quite difficult to wrap my head around the murdering Genji idea. I always thought that he knew murders where actually occurring and that he was assisting Sayo with them in some way. However, I cannot really picture him as a killer. I believe this has been already mentioned, but I find it kind of pointless to have him kill people as well, when Sayo could most likely go through with it on her own.

Welcome renosm!
Yes, I agree. Unless Genji is supposed to play a role in Prime (example: he was the one who actually killed the people that weren't in the golden room so when Kyrie and Rudolf came out from it they found nearly everyone already dead) and him playing murderer in the games is supposed to be a hint... I find pretty useless to have him playing the role of an extra killer... but well, I also don't like much the idea of having Eva starting murdering around with Sayo also murdering people at random (Nanjo and George and maybe Jessica?) especially because even if it could make sense that, once solved the epitaph she would obey to Eva, Eva surely wouldn't want her son to die. So it seems that even if Eva solved the epitaph Sayo went on with it on her own.

2. I think it is still not clear how Eva managed to move Krauss and Natsuhi's corpses all the way under the arbor after strangling them. Am I missing something or has it not been explained yet? Also, are we supposed to deduce that it was her that staked them, based on the mistaken placement of the stakes?

It might be we're missing something. Likely though Krauss and Natsuhi were drugged. If it's a drug that starts having it's effect slowly they could have dragged them out with an excuse, they walked outside, the drug took effect making them powerless to defend themselves and then she killed them.

Alternatively Krauss and Natsuhi might have been bribed/blackmailed as well. They sounded sort of not worried enough so I found them suspicious as they reminded me of Eva and Hideyoshi in Ep 1. So they were drugged, instructed to go out by Sayo and then found unconscious by Eva who could comfortably kill them.

3. Finally, I am way too confused regarding Maria's rose. When we first got the Book of One Truth chapter it showed that the whole rose scenario actually did happen. This automatically made me think that all the bottle stories were written post-incident and therefore included this part. But then the Confession clarified the stories were all written and released before the conference. So what's actually going on here? I can only see two possibilities:

a) "Maria's Rose" is not mentioned in the original bottle stories and was later implemented in a meta layer of each story in the same way the meta world scenes and the fantasy scenes were implemented.

b) "Maria's Rose" was an event orchestrated by Sayo in collaboration with Maria in order for her to find a chance to hand her the invitation letter. Maria could have been told to take care of any sickly looking roses or something like that. Even though this scenario would explain the inclusion of the rose part in the stories it somehow seems a bit forced or maybe too far fetched. I thought the rose scene seemed way too natural and random to be something devised by Sayo. Then again, maybe the fact that it kept happening was a hint that something was repeatedly causing it.

My guess is that Maria's rose was considered as a possibilility by Sayo in Ep 1 and ended up being used as an excuse to allow Maria to receive Beatrice's letter in Prime. Sayo probably had thought to many ways to contact Maria and the rose seemed to work better than the others (in Ep 2 it was the candy so it's possible that she had 1 or more alternate plans...)

To tell the truth the means of moving the corpses had always puzzled me a bit. Even in the first twilight murders of the first game wouldn't it be a pain for Genji and Sayo to move six adult corpses all the way to the garden shed? I always assumed that the wheelbarrow used to move the fertilizer on Kanon's first appearance was the way the bodies were moved! We are shown that it can be used by Sayo alone to move a lot of weight, so why not use it for the bodies as well?

I've always preferred to think that instead than moving the corpses they had the real people move in the shed with an excuse and then kill them there.

If Genji were to go to them and claim there's something odd with the shed or claim the master wanted to see them there they would have to go there.

It seems a much easier work than moving all those corpses... though nothing stops them from moving the corpses after everyone was killed.

After all, what proves a kill took place in the dining room? Only that there's some blood looking stuff on the ground, although not as much as there should be and they didn't even study it long. We only need to have Nanjo declare it's blood and we assume he knows what he's talking about. And it could be real blood, blood of an animal for example.

renosm

2014-05-25, 12:34

Welcome renosm!
Yes, I agree. Unless Genji is supposed to play a role in Prime (example: he was the one who actually killed the people that weren't in the golden room so when Kyrie and Rudolf came out from it they found nearly everyone already dead) and him playing murderer in the games is supposed to be a hint... I find pretty useless to have him playing the role of an extra killer... but well, I also don't like much the idea of having Eva starting murdering around with Sayo also murdering people at random (Nanjo and George and maybe Jessica?) especially because even if it could make sense that, once solved the epitaph she would obey to Eva, Eva surely wouldn't want her son to die. So it seems that even if Eva solved the epitaph Sayo went on with it on her own.

I'm glad to finally be an active part of these conversations!
First of all, are we sure that Eva really did solve the epitaph's riddle? I know it's kind of stupid to theorise about it, since such a big part of the narrative supports it, but I don't understand why Sayo would go on with the murders! She has actually declared in red that if the epitaph was solved the murders would stop!
So was the epitaph solved?
Is the whole "succession ceremony" scene implaying that solving the epitaph turned Eva into an accomplice? I just can't see this as the truth.

I have another scenario in mind regarding EP3:
Sayo (disguised into human-Beatrice) took Eva all the way to the gold room to convince her to become a murdering accomplice. She promised her part of the gold and the position of the Head and reassured her about her son's and her husband's survival (Perhaps she explained the epitaph's solution to her while she was taking her there). But there was a bomb, and the gold would blow up. There was however a reasonable portion already turned into usable cash. If Eva went along with the murders Beatrice would provide her with the code to retrieve the money. So Eva-Beatrice was the part of her that sided with Sayo. She tried to fight and deny that part of her, but she couldn't! She really wanted the money and the headship. Sayo explained that the murders were to follow the epitaph and that the victims were to be staked. If the epitaph was solved the whole thing would stop.

Now this is where it gets tricky. Maybe Rosa actually did solve the epitaph, but Sayo never knew. Obviously Eva, dazzled by the gold, couldn't accept that she lost before the murders even began! So she told Rosa that she herself had already solved the epitaph and that they should wait before announcing it. Afterwards, she murdered her on her own to keep her quite. Hence there were no stakes on Rosa and Maria's bodies! Their murders could fit the second twilight, but they weren't the second twilight murders devised by Sayo.

I'm not sure how Kyrie and Rudolf's murders played out. Was it Hideyoshi that murdered them or Sayo? Was Eva even there? Did Hideyoshi take Kyrie's bullet in order to protect Eva as theorised by Battler in the manga? It's not very clear. Perhaps Eva really was there and hence she didn't blame Sayo for Hideyoshi's death. She did however blame Evatrice, the part of her that agreed to this murder game.

After murdering George, Sayo left the code for the money written on the door marking the culmination of their deal. This part doen't add up very well to my theory. Why was Eva given the code? Was she meant to survive? No one is meant to survive in Sayo's scenarios. So why the code? Since Eva knew about the bomb she could escape. So didn't Sayo tell her about the bomb, because she planned to murder her in the end? Then maybe Eva saw through her Shannon appearence and murdered her instead! After murdering Shannon she left through the gold room tunnel leaving the bomb to blow up the island.

It might be we're missing something. Likely though Krauss and Natsuhi were drugged. If it's a drug that starts having it's effect slowly they could have dragged them out with an excuse, they walked outside, the drug took effect making them powerless to defend themselves and then she killed them.

Alternatively Krauss and Natsuhi might have been bribed/blackmailed as well. They sounded sort of not worried enough so I found them suspicious as they reminded me of Eva and Hideyoshi in Ep 1. So they were drugged, instructed to go out by Sayo and then found unconscious by Eva who could comfortably kill them.

This is a plausible scenario! I'm not really sure if they were bribed though. In my theory Eva and sequentially Hideyoshi are the only bribed family members this time around.

I've always preferred to think that instead than moving the corpses they had the real people move in the shed with an excuse and then kill them there.

If Genji were to go to them and claim there's something odd with the shed or claim the master wanted to see them there they would have to go there.

It seems a much easier work than moving all those corpses... though nothing stops them from moving the corpses after everyone was killed.

After all, what proves a kill took place in the dining room? Only that there's some blood looking stuff on the ground, although not as much as there should be and they didn't even study it long. We only need to have Nanjo declare it's blood and we assume he knows what he's talking about. And it could be real blood, blood of an animal for example.

I know it could be possible to move them there beforehand like in the first twilight of EP2. However, the garden shed seems like a strange place for a meeting. It would take a really lame excuse to move them there. Of course there's always the possibility: "A midnight meeting in the garden shed? I wouldn't put it past father!" But isn't Kyrie too clever to be fooled by something like this?

P.S: I apologise about any spelling mistakes. I'm currently using my laptop and it somehow lacks an autocorrect system.

jjblue1

2014-05-25, 15:08

I'm glad to finally be an active part of these conversations!
First of all, are we sure that Eva really did solve the epitaph's riddle?
I know it's kind of stupid to theorise about it, since such a big part of the narrative supports it, but I don't understand why Sayo would go on with the murders! She has actually declared in red that if the epitaph was solved the murders would stop!
So was the epitaph solved?
Is the whole "succession ceremony" scene implaying that solving the epitaph turned Eva into an accomplice? I just can't see this as the truth.

I have another scenario in mind regarding EP3:
Sayo (disguised into human-Beatrice) took Eva all the way to the gold room to convince her to become a murdering accomplice. She promised her part of the gold and the position of the Head and reassured her about her son's and her husband's survival (Perhaps she explained the epitaph's solution to her while she was taking her there). But there was a bomb, and the gold would blow up. There was however a reasonable portion already turned into usable cash. If Eva went along with the murders Beatrice would provide her with the code to retrieve the money. So Eva-Beatrice was the part of her that sided with Sayo. She tried to fight and deny that part of her, but she couldn't! She really wanted the money and the headship. Sayo explained that the murders were to follow the epitaph and that the victims were to be staked. If the epitaph was solved the whole thing would stop.

Now this is where it gets tricky. Maybe Rosa actually did solve the epitaph, but Sayo never knew. Obviously Eva, dazzled by the gold, couldn't accept that she lost before the murders even began! So she told Rosa that she herself had already solved the epitaph and that they should wait before announcing it. Afterwards, she murdered her on her own to keep her quite. Hence there were no stakes on Rosa and Maria's bodies! Their murders could fit the second twilight, but they weren't the second twilight murders devised by Sayo.

Yes, I too suspected that Eva didn't solve the epitaph but was handed the solution. Some dialogues between Eva and Eva-Beatrice might also actually be between Eva and Sayo. But the problem is that Rosa was lead out by Maria having a temper tantrum and this fact seems orchestrated by Sayo.

It can be that Sayo lost control of the scenery. Eva heard that Rosa was going out and followed her and the two had an argument during which Eva pushed Rosa and caused her to fall and die (Ep 7 manga version confirmed that Rosa was killed by Eva who pushed her).
While it's dangerous to push her against the fence, I wouldn't consider this a planned killing method so it can be that Rosa's death wasn't planned.
Ep 7 manga version also confirm once her mother died Maria, desperate, made a rukus and was strangled by Eva, who probably wanted to silence her.

Strangling Maria wouldn't be fitting Sayo's idea that Maria's body shouldn't be mistreated so this too seems something that wasn't planned.

In addition to this we've no stakes left near to the corpses. In short all seems to point out to something that went wrong.

This can imply that Eva had an agreement with Sayo but the same didn't apply with Rosa who found the gold by following Eva and threatened her to tattle out everything. Sayo might have preferred handling things differently, which is why Maria lead out Rosa but Eva got in between and things went the wrong way.

After all in Ep 3 a lot of things went in an unexpected way, as we've Kyrie who didn't die immediately but managed to shoot Hideyoshi and we also have Eva who by mistake blinded Jessica.

Interesting enough it isn't shown who killed Rudolf and Kyrie. Hideyoshi had no gun so it might be it was Sayo herself. If Sayo was unaware Rosa and Maria were killed it might make sense she went out of her way to kill Nanjo and George (who're killed at the tenth twilight) as for her the ritual wasn't finished yet.

Interesting enough Will provides no solution for the tenth twilight with George and Nanjo's murders as Clair won't bother asking him who did it.

(well, it's quite obvious it's Sayo but since it was a huge mystery in Ep 3 I find interesting she didn't ask who killed Nanjo)

I'm not sure how Kyrie and Rudolf's murders played out. Was it Hideyoshi that murdered them or Sayo? Was Eva even there? Did Hideyoshi take Kyrie's bullet in order to protect Eva as theorised by Battler in the manga? It's not very clear. Perhaps Eva really was there and hence she didn't blame Sayo for Hideyoshi's death. She did however blame Evatrice, the part of her that agreed to this murder game.

The manga shows Hideyoshi standing there but without a gun so I'll say he didn't do the killing. As Kyrie is shot but doesn't immediately die and he's standing in front of her she shoots him. Shooting Rudolf and Kyrie one after the other requires someone who knows how handle guns and we know Eva has problems doing it. In Ep 7 when she manages learning how to recharge she does it always in a pretty cautious, slow manner. That's not fitting of how quickly she shoot Rudolf and Kyrie, who both had a gun. So I'll say the shooting was either done by Sayo (or by Genji who also faked being dead... I'll go for Sayo though because I prefer simple solutions).

After murdering George, Sayo left the code for the money written on the door marking the culmination of their deal. This part doen't add up very well to my theory. Why was Eva given the code? Was she meant to survive? No one is meant to survive in Sayo's scenarios. So why the code? Since Eva knew about the bomb she could escape. So didn't Sayo tell her about the bomb, because she planned to murder her in the end? Then maybe Eva saw through her Shannon appearence and murdered her instead! After murdering Shannon she left through the gold room tunnel leaving the bomb to blow up the island.

I wonder if leaving Eva alive after she killed Battler and brutally murdered Maria was Sayo's idea of revenge as Eva also has lost George and Hideyoshi.

We see that at the end of Ep 3 Eva claims she'll condemn Ange to her sad fate, might be Sayo decided to condemn Eva to a fate for her sadder than death as well.

This is a plausible scenario! I'm not really sure if they were bribed though. In my theory Eva and sequentially Hideyoshi are the only bribed family members this time around.
Well, so far they're the only confirmed accomplices so it can be the others weren't bribed... yet Natsuhi and Krauss' interaction always stuck me as odd. They seem too calm. But maybe it's just me.

I know it could be possible to move them there beforehand like in the first twilight of EP2. However, the garden shed seems like a strange place for a meeting. It would take a really lame excuse to move them there. Of course there's always the possibility: "A midnight meeting in the garden shed? I wouldn't put it past father!" But isn't Kyrie too clever to be fooled by something like this?

They might have been tricked into going there with different excuses. For example Gohda might have been told it was an order, Rudolf, Kyrie and Rosa might have been told that there they would meet someone in secrecy that would give them info on something (the gold, a proof of Kinzo being really dead, do your pick) and Krauss might have been led there by Genji with the excuse he had to see something important (same as they did with Natsuhi later on... only she didn't end up getting killed). Actually leading them there one after the other makes the killing easier.

As Eva and Hideyoshi worked as accomplices they might have helped in the persuasion that it was a good idea to go there.

But, of course, they could have also be carried there. I guess Ryukishi let us free to pick whatever solution. As Sayo has Genji he is strong enough to carry all the bodies.

haguruma

2014-05-27, 01:43

The message seems more that people did bad things because of the circumstances they were in than due to the choices they took.
I agree that a lot of things were left up to imagination. I get this feeling that Ryukishi might be quite a Mystery nerd himself and he got so wrapped up in genre-tropes that made certain things seem natural to him that need some introduction and establishment in a proper story.
Yes, in a good of 80% of all Japanese mystery-solving novels it is a matter of foul environment breeding tragedy and less about innocence destroyed by evil. But even if I am right with my reading of his intention, I also agree that you cannot just throw something out there and expect people to just get it without at least nudging the newcomers in the right direction.

I agree. I love how Ep 8 worked to create a connection, a parallel between Beato and Ange's situation that basically culminates in this moment.

I have to say, I never paid much attention to it during the VN because it never seemed to go anywhere. With the manga it seems as if it was a matter of the very poor editing that VN-EP8 went through, because even the lines that were there take on a completely new meaning.
The sad thing is, even the PS3 version of EP8 seems poor now, since for some reason the seiyuu seemed as confused concerning what to do with the scenes as we readers were. The battle between Ange and Beatrice in the chapel is piss-poor compared to how it appears in the manga, not because Ohara or Satô are doing a bad job, but because it lacks context and all the important lines lack impact...Beato just appears uncontextually mean and Ange just bitchy and whiny.

At the end of chapter 25 now, Ange breaks down crying (in a positive way of finally allowing grief), banging on Beato's chest, when being told to grasp her happiness and live...that is a development that I wanted to see.

Thank you, you're awesome!
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/NewDoc21_9.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/NewDoc21_9.jpg.html)

Beato:
Had I really thought the world to be that fleeting
I would have been able to die alone
If I were to die
would he cry over me?
I am sure he would cry and cry until his tears dried
and one day, as if nothing had ever happened he would move on with somebody else
No
I don't want anybody else to have him
Beato:
Everyone must think so
Something so dangerous can only become a seed for anguish
Being the master of that room I could have destroyed it or thrown it all into the sea...
Just by that nobody would have had to die in the end, right?

Did Ikuko found it and sent it to Ange?
It's after all in Featherine's library and Ange finds it and take it in her hands and this might have implied she ended up reading it.
Well, right now I (and the Japanese fandom) can think of 2 alternatives:
1. The fantasy-alternative would be that Ange IS actually going through the world of the witches and comes into contact with the Fragment that is CotGW, so that Sayo's message bottle CotGW can still remain in Ikuko's care without ever reaching her, just the same as with the Book of One Truth.
2. The reality-alternative implies that everything we see in Ange's travel is codified as a document written by Featherikuko as well (as she implies in chapter 21). This would mean that Ange travelling to the "Capital of Books" under the guidance of Featherine and Bern and there finding CotGW along with being handed the BotOT is just codification for her coming to the Hachijo's home and there finding Sayo's message bottle while waiting for Ikuko to hand her Eva's diary.

I think, if the manga keeps on going like this, we might get an answer sometime this year.

It might be we're missing something. Likely though Krauss and Natsuhi were drugged.
It's actually very likely. Since Eva says before leaving the parlor that she'll make coffee and there is a large emphasis laid on this whole aspect, it is not unlikely to assume that the coffe was either poisoned or drugged. We know now that this is at least how the EP2 1stTwilight happened.

Sayo probably had thought to many ways to contact Maria and the rose seemed to work better than the others (in Ep 2 it was the candy so it's possible that she had 1 or more alternate plans...)
Yeah, I totally forgot the candy and that I found it strange why that didn't happen in any of the other 3 core-stories...it would make total sense if this was one of many ways thought up by Sayo but, since only Legend and Turn made it ashore and Tohya actually remembered the rose-thing happening and inserted it in the story, this was the one that stuck.
If you think about it, this gives Maria a whole other level of creep-factor...I know for her it didn't seem as permanent, since she's a child and she probably actually believed in the Golden Land...but she still actually wanted to KILL her mother...and even the candy thing turns really dark now...

Is the whole "succession ceremony" scene implaying that solving the epitaph turned Eva into an accomplice? I just can't see this as the truth.
Well, if we take all that into further consideration (and back then I actually considered that Young-Eva talking to Eva was actually a code for the culprit talking to her) she is talking to Young Eva before she even thinks about solving the epitaph.
Sayo says in CotGW(2) that she could convince Eva and Hideyoshi by threatening to hurt George and by showing them a part of the gold. We can assume from EP2 that she likely didn't take them all the way to the Room of Gold, but instead just showed them part of it.

Let's go over EP3 for that:
When the First Twilight happens, the epitaph has not been solved. The murders in this chain of events are pretty limited, since actually only two people (Kumasawa and Gohda) are murdered in a close sense of the word (Kinzo is already dead, Genji wants to die, and Kanon and Shannon do not really die). We can assume that Eva and Hideyoshi were already in on it by then.

At this point (admitted by Rosa to Eva) people still doubt whether murders actually happened and if this is all a game by somebody. Then Eva solves he epitaph with Rosa close behind, when later given a chance, Eva takes it to confront Rosa. The situation escalates and Rosa dies, which leads to Maria having to be silenced as well.

Eva's family is (rightfully) doubted by everyone and Kyrie decides to take Hideyoshi to the mansion to question him together with Rudolph. There they think of having the upper hand but Kyrie's bullets "cannot wound Eva-Beato" or better, they were taken out beforehand. Hideyoshi produced one of the hidden guns (shown by Eva-Beato summuning the Chiesters) and shoots Rudolph and Kyrie. Kyrie isn't dead yet and manages to shoot a distracted Hideyoshi.
This is witnessed by Sayo, who then decides to stake the victims to send her message (please stop "me") out.

Eva was actually in her room this whole time and assuming that Hideyoshi's death was a planned assassination by the other two families, who wanted to seperate them, she now planned to take revenge on Natsuhi and Krauss. She probably drugged the coffee and then strangled them and dragged them out into the garden. Them having been staked implies that Sayo also witnessed this (likely since it is not far from the mansion)

During this, George is called to the mansion by Sayo over the landline (by calling Nanjo's room and then having the phone handed to George). She likely already saw that it is too late and thought everybody is better to die, so she at least wanted to "go with the people that mattered most to her". It was likely also a message to Eva that she can have the money in return for her sons life, so she wrote the 07151129 on the door.
When George is discovered missing, Nanjo is still playing along with the witch illusion.

When they discover George's corpse, Eva doesn't know how to react and breaks when she is cornered by Jessica. I assume her shooting at Jessica really was a mistake though. It's btw. interesting how this mirrors the scene between Eva and Natsuhi from EP1, but this time Battler was too dumbfounded to actually intervene.

Nanjo is then killed by Sayo, out of anger for just standing by and letting things proceed, as well as because there is nothing to be done anymore. Then she assumes Kanon's persona again and leads Jessica away, to have a "joined death" with her as Shannon had with George.

This leaves only Battler and Eva actually alive and, in her desperation of ending up as THE culprit, Eva ends up shooting Battler.

In the end, an important thing we shouldn't forget is:
All of the Fragments we see in the Episodes are not any more real than BATTLER's Fragment of Happiness in EP8!
They are all just IFs, which Sayo also mentions alot in CotGW. Things that could have happened under the right circumstances, but it is also implied that her idea of reality was too naive. The adults weren't too busy and stupid to solve the epitaph, the children might not just go along with her suicide plan, the servants maybe aren't just loyal machines. Similar to how Battler's vision was too perfectly sweet, Sayo's vision was too perfectly dark.

Interesting enough it isn't shown who killed Rudolf and Kyrie.
It is said in the EP7 manga that it was Hideyoshi.
It said, I quote, "Eva and Hideyoshi were being bribed. Being suspected, Hideyoshi killed Rudolph and Kyrie in the mansion. The not immediately dead Kyrie killed Hideyoshi."

IceBorg

2014-05-27, 09:55

I was rereading the EP7 tea party and I noticed that when Kyrie goes to the guest house she uses a kitchen knife to kill.
Genji used a kitchen knife in EP2 to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa.
I wonder if those two things have some relation to Genji's true role in Prime.

jjblue1

2014-05-27, 18:52

Ep1

Magic culprit: Beatrice

First twilight: Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Gohda, Shannon
Second twilight: Eva (Stake of Asmodeus of Lust), Hideyoshi (Stake of Beelzebub of Gluttony)
Forth twilight: Kinzo (Stake of Mammon of Greed)
Fifth twilight: Kanon (Stake of Satan of Wrath)
Sixth twilight: Genji (Stake of Lucifer of Pride)
Seventh twilight: Nanjo (Stake of Belphegor of Sloth)
Eight twilight: Kumasawa (Stake of Leviathan of Envy)
Ninth twilight: Natsuhi
Missing: Jessica, George, Battler, Maria

Who was killed? Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Gohda
By whom? Sayo dressed up as Shannon (and possibly Genji)
Where? Either in the dining hall and then were moved in the gardening storehouse or directly in the gardening storehouse (there seemed to be too few blood in the dining hall for them to have been killed there)
How? They were shoot with guns with bullets so powerful they could disfigure a face. Hideyoshi later lied about Shannon’s body being among them.

Who was killed? Eva, Hideyoshi
By whom? Sayo dressed up as Kanon or Genji
Where? Their room in the main house
How? They trusted Kanon or Genji enough to open the door and he shoot them in the head then placed the stakes in the holes.

Who was killed? Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa
By whom? Sayo dressed up as Beatrice
Where? The parlour
How? She got in with her key and shoot them in the face then also shoot them in the points mentioned by the epitaph and placed the stakes in the holes

Who was killed? Jessica, George, Battler, Maria, Sayo dressed up as Beatrice
By whom? The bomb
Where? The hall of the main house
How? The bomb turned on by Sayo exploded at midnight

Ep2

Magic culprit: Beatrice (all the twilights), the goats (ate the missing people)

First twilight: Krauss, Natsuhi. Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie
Second twilight: Jessica (Stake of Asmodeus of Lust), Kanon (Stake of Satan of Wrath)
Forth twilight: Shannon (Stake of Mammon of Greed)
Fifth twilight: Gohda (Stake of Beelzebub of Gluttony)
Sixth twilight: George (Stake of Lucifer of Pride)
Seventh twilight: Nanjo (Stake of Belphegor of Sloth)
Eight twilight: Kumasawa (Stake of Leviathan of Envy)
Missing: Kinzo, Genji, Battler, Rosa, Maria

Who was killed? Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie
By whom? Sayo (and possibly Genji)
Where? The chapel
How? They were drugged and then shoot in the stomach which was later filled with candies

Who was killed? Jessica
By whom? Sayo dressed up as Kanon
Where? Jessica’s room
How? She was shoot in the back then a stake was placed inside the wound.

Who was killed? Kumasawa, Nanjo
By whom? Genji
Where? The kitchen and then they were moved in the courtyard
How? Their throats were cut with a kitchen knife then they were shoot and stakes were placed inside the wounds

Who was killed? Gohda, George
By whom? Sayo dressed up as Shannon
Where? Natsuhi’s room
How? She shoot them then placed a stake inside the wounds

Who was killed? Sayo dressed up as Shannon
By whom? Herself
Where? Natsuhi’s room
How? After placing a stake near her she shoot her own head and used a trick to hide the gun once she would lose her hold on it.

Who was killed? Genji, Battler, Rosa, Maria
By whom? The bomb
Where? Battler in Kinzo’s study, Genji just out of it, Rosa and Maria near the chapel
How? The bomb turned on by Sayo exploded at midnight

Ep3

Magic culprit: Beatrice (First twilight & second twilight), Eva-Beatrice (following twilights) using the Siesta sister from the forth twilight to George’s death in the ninth twilight

First twilight: Kinzo, Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Gohda, Kumasawa
Second twilight: Rosa, Maria
Forth twilight: Rudolf (Stake of Asmodeus of Lust)
Fifth twilight: Hideyoshi (Stake of Beelzebub of Gluttony)
Sixth twilight: Kyrie (Stake of Mammon of Greed)
Seventh twilight: Krauss (Stake of Lucifer of Pride)
Eight twilight: Natsuhi (Stake of Satan of Wrath)
Ninth twilight: George, Nanjo, Battler
Missing: Jessica
Winner: Eva

Who was killed? Kumasawa, Gohda, Genji
By whom? Sayo dressed up either as Shannon or Kanon (likely Shannon)
Where? guest room on the second floor of the main house, third floor waiting room, second floor honored guest room
How? She shoot them

Who was killed? Rosa
By whom? Eva
Where? The rose garden
How? She pushed her and caused her to fall on the garden fence, where its spear-shaped prongs pierced Rosa’s neck

Who was killed? Maria
By whom? Eva
Where? The rose garden
How? She was strangled to death.

Who was killed? Rudolf, Kyrie
By whom? Hideyoshi?
Where? The hall of the main house
How? They were shoot. Then Sayo placed a stake in the holes.

Who was killed? Hideyoshi
By whom? Kyrie
Where? The hall of the main house
How? He was shoot after he shoot Kyrie. Then Sayo placed a stake in the hole.

Who was killed? Krauss, Natsuhi
By whom? Eva
Where? Either the lobby or the arbor
How? They were drugged and then strangled. It’s unsure if they were killed in the lobby and then taken in the arbour or lead in the arbour after having been drugged and then killed. Then Sayo shoot them and placed the stakes in the holes.

Who was killed? George
By whom? Sayo dressed up as Shannon
Where?The parlour
How? She shoot him

Who was killed? Nanjo
By whom? Sayo likely dressed up as Shannon
Where? Just out of the servants' room
How? She shoot him

Who was killed? Battler
By whom? Eva
Where? The parlour
How? She shoot him

Who was killed? Jessica, Sayo (pretending to be Kanon)
By whom? The bomb?
Where? The parlour?
How? The bomb turned on by Sayo exploded at midnight. It’s however possible that Sayo didn’t wait for the bomb to explode but killed Jessica and herself before the explosion.

Ep4

Magic culprit: Kinzo using the Siesta sisters for all the twilights minus the second, Beatrice (she burns Kinzo), Gaap with the help of Ronove (second twilight)

First twilight: Natsuhi, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Eva, Genji, Rosa
Second twilight: George, Jessica
Forth twilight: Kanon
Fifth twilight: Shannon (Stake of Mammon of Greed?)
Sixth twilight: Nanjo (Stake of Belphegor of Sloth?)
Seventh twilight: Krauss (Stake of Lucifer of Pride?)
Eight twilight: Kyrie (Stake of Leviathan of Envy?)
Ninth twilight: Kinzo, Gohda, Kumasawa
Tenth twilight: Maria, Battler

Who was killed? Natsuhi, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Eva, Rosa
By whom? Sayo dressed up as Shannon (Natsuhi, Rudolf) & Genji (Hideyoshi, Eva, Rosa)
Where? The dining hall
How? They were shoot to their heads

Who was killed? Kyrie
By whom? Sayo
Where? A old guest room in the depths of the first floor of the main house
How? She was shoot to the head then a stake was placed in the hole

Who was killed? Krauss
By whom? Sayo (or possibly Genji)
Where? Near the back door
How? He was shoot in the head and a stake was stuck inside it

Who was killed? Nanjo
By whom? Sayo (or possibly Genji)
Where? Near an old well
How? He was shoot in the head and a stake was placed next to him

Who was killed? George
By whom? Genji
Where? The arbour
How? He was shoot in the chest

Who was killed? Kumasawa, Gohda
By whom? Genji
Where? The gardening storehouse
How? They were shoot while they were faking being hung by their necks

Who was killed? Jessica
By whom? Sayo dressed up as Kanon
Where? Jessica’s room
How? She was shoot in the head

Who was killed? Maria
By whom? Sayo dressed up as Beatrice
Where? The dining hall
How? She was poisoned

Who was killed? Genji
By whom? Sayo dressed up as Shannon
Where? The dining hall
How? She shoot him in the head

Who was killed? Sayo dressed up as Shannon
By whom? Herself
Where? Near an old well
How? After placing a stake near her she shoot her own head and used a trick to hide the gun once she would lose her hold on it.

Who was killed? Battler
By whom? The bomb
Where? The hall of the main house
How? The bomb turned on by Sayo exploded at midnight

Ep5

Magic culprit: Beatrice?

First twilight: George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Krauss
Second twilight: Hideyoshi (Stake of Beelzebub of Gluttony?)
GAME SUSPENDED

Who was killed? Krauss
By whom? Sayo (or possibly Genji)
Where? The golden room and/or the underground passage toward Kuwadorian
How? He was strangled after Natsuhi heard him on the phone

Who was killed? George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa
By whom? Sayo (or possibly Genji)
Where? The golden room and/or the underground passage toward Kuwadorian
How? After faking their dead George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa left the room they had been sleeping in, reached the golden room or the underground passage, were drugged and then their throat was cut.

Who was killed? Genji? (it’s unsure if he’s dead at the point of suspension of the game)
By whom? Sayo
Where? The golden room and/or the underground passage toward Kuwadorian
How? Genji too after he faked his own dead reached the golden room or the underground passage and had or would have had his throat cut.

Who was killed? Hideyoshi? (it’s unsure if he’s dead at the point of suspension of the game)
By whom? Sayo, possibly Genji if his real death was supposed to happen after Hideyoshi’s
Where? The parlour?
How? He was or would have been shoot in the back

Ep6

Magic culprit: George, Jessica, Kanon, Shannon, Beatrice, Battler

First twilight: Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Natsuhi, Battler
Second twilight: Kanon
GAME SUSPENDED

Who was killed? Eva, Rosa, Maria, Kyrie, Natsuhi
By whom? Erika
Where? Eva in the second floor honored guest room, Rosa and Maria in the parlour, Kyrie in Krauss's study, Natsuhi in her room
How? When they faked being dead Erika really killed them by cutting their head off.

I have to say, I never paid much attention to it during the VN because it never seemed to go anywhere. With the manga it seems as if it was a matter of the very poor editing that VN-EP8 went through, because even the lines that were there take on a completely new meaning.
The sad thing is, even the PS3 version of EP8 seems poor now, since for some reason the seiyuu seemed as confused concerning what to do with the scenes as we readers were. The battle between Ange and Beatrice in the chapel is piss-poor compared to how it appears in the manga, not because Ohara or Satô are doing a bad job, but because it lacks context and all the important lines lack impact...Beato just appears uncontextually mean and Ange just bitchy and whiny.

At the end of chapter 25 now, Ange breaks down crying (in a positive way of finally allowing grief), banging on Beato's chest, when being told to grasp her happiness and live...that is a development that I wanted to see.

*nods* I remember I rather disliked Ep 8 VN Ange as she came out as a whiny, immature brat in a way that made me think she really didn't look mature enough to handle the truth while Beato, left alone with her, gave me the feeling she looked down on her/disliked her quite a bit and played nice with her only in front of Battler for Battler's sake.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e370/chounokoe/NewDoc21_9.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/chounokoe/media/NewDoc21_9.jpg.html)

Beato:
Had I really thought the world to be that fleeting
I would have been able to die alone
If I were to die
would he cry over me?
I am sure he would cry and cry until his tears dried
and one day, as if nothing had ever happened he would move on with somebody else
No
I don't want anybody else to have him
Beato:
Everyone must think so
Something so dangerous can only become a seed for anguish
Being the master of that room I could have destroyed it or thrown it all into the sea...
Just by that nobody would have had to die in the end, right?

Thank you so much! Though I'll admit I was hoping for something more visual but maybe that's because deep down I'm just an hopeless Battler/Sayo shipper...

Still it was interesting to read how Sayo too can be jealous to the point she prefers Battler to be dead than in the arms of another... I fear she's taking lessons from Kyrie...

Well, right now I (and the Japanese fandom) can think of 2 alternatives:
1. The fantasy-alternative would be that Ange IS actually going through the world of the witches and comes into contact with the Fragment that is CotGW, so that Sayo's message bottle CotGW can still remain in Ikuko's care without ever reaching her, just the same as with the Book of One Truth.
2. The reality-alternative implies that everything we see in Ange's travel is codified as a document written by Featherikuko as well (as she implies in chapter 21). This would mean that Ange travelling to the "Capital of Books" under the guidance of Featherine and Bern and there finding CotGW along with being handed the BotOT is just codification for her coming to the Hachijo's home and there finding Sayo's message bottle while waiting for Ikuko to hand her Eva's diary.

The reality-alternative possibility might also be true but wasn't it said that Hachijo refused to meet her? Unless Tohya refused to do so and Ikuko instead met her and handed her all that? Or we were lied about Tohya refusing to meet her?
This is getting confusing...

Yeah, I totally forgot the candy and that I found it strange why that didn't happen in any of the other 3 core-stories...it would make total sense if this was one of many ways thought up by Sayo but, since only Legend and Turn made it ashore and Tohya actually remembered the rose-thing happening and inserted it in the story, this was the one that stuck.
If you think about it, this gives Maria a whole other level of creep-factor...I know for her it didn't seem as permanent, since she's a child and she probably actually believed in the Golden Land...but she still actually wanted to KILL her mother...and even the candy thing turns really dark now...

I like to think Maria really believed/wanted to believe in the golden land but yes, Ep 4 made very clear that Maria had some serious dark feelings for her mother...

Well, if we take all that into further consideration (and back then I actually considered that Young-Eva talking to Eva was actually a code for the culprit talking to her) she is talking to Young Eva before she even thinks about solving the epitaph.
Sayo says in CotGW(2) that she could convince Eva and Hideyoshi by threatening to hurt George and by showing them a part of the gold. We can assume from EP2 that she likely didn't take them all the way to the Room of Gold, but instead just showed them part of it.

It might be. Maybe Sayo promised Eva the headship and enough gold to fix their money problems. In Ep 3 Eva says in the beginning she thought stealing Krauss' place would have been enough but then she was blinded by gold and...

Eva's family is (rightfully) doubted by everyone and Kyrie decides to take Hideyoshi to the mansion to question him together with Rudolph. There they think of having the upper hand but Kyrie's bullets "cannot wound Eva-Beato" or better, they were taken out beforehand. Hideyoshi produced one of the hidden guns (shown by Eva-Beato summuning the Chiesters) and shoots Rudolph and Kyrie. Kyrie isn't dead yet and manages to shoot a distracted Hideyoshi.

There's contraddiction here. If Kyrie's gun can't shoot, then it wouldn't be able to shoot Hideyoshi either. The manga depicts the scene as happening really fast so my feeling is more that Kyrie and Rudolf were taken by surprise. Interesting enough it doesn't seem like Rudolf is holding a gun but he might have dropped it when he was shoot but what's even more interesting is that Hideyoshi definitely doesn't look like holding one when he faces Kyrie who's on her knees.

Eva was actually in her room this whole time and assuming that Hideyoshi's death was a planned assassination by the other two families, who wanted to seperate them, she now planned to take revenge on Natsuhi and Krauss. She probably drugged the coffee and then strangled them and dragged them out into the garden.

I always favour the idea she (or Sayo) had tricked them into going out than that dragging them as dragging them is a heavy and risky job while leading them out with an excuse seems much more easy. But yes, she could have dragged them.

During this, George is called to the mansion by Sayo over the landline (by calling Nanjo's room and then having the phone handed to George). She likely already saw that it is too late and thought everybody is better to die, so she at least wanted to "go with the people that mattered most to her". It was likely also a message to Eva that she can have the money in return for her sons life, so she wrote the 07151129 on the door.
When George is discovered missing, Nanjo is still playing along with the witch illusion.

For me if Eva was bribed, Sayo is more like trying to go on with her epitaph than anything else so she keeps on killing regardless of Eva's murders... or considers Eva's murders as part of the ritual same way as she does with Genji's murders in other episodes.
Eva might not know who bribed her as we know she didn't plan to reveal her identity so when George dies she doesn't know what to do or whom to suspect.

This leaves only Battler and Eva actually alive and, in her desperation of ending up as THE culprit, Eva ends up shooting Battler.

Interesting enough Jessica is hidden by Kanon in the parlour and Battler is shoot in the parlour... if Sayo was hidden there as well Battler was shoot in front of her.

It is said in the EP7 manga that it was Hideyoshi.
It said, I quote, "Eva and Hideyoshi were being bribed. Being suspected, Hideyoshi killed Rudolph and Kyrie in the mansion. The not immediately dead Kyrie killed Hideyoshi."

Hum... as Hideyoshi isn't shown holding a gun I feel tempted to ask if the Japanese sentence is really that binding or it can be translated in another way that leaves the doubt on who killed Rudolf and Kyrie.

I was rereading the EP7 tea party and I noticed that when Kyrie goes to the guest house she uses a kitchen knife to kill.
Genji used a kitchen knife in EP2 to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa.
I wonder if those two things have some relation to Genji's true role in Prime.

It'll be interesting if it were a hint that actually in Prime Genji has started following the epitaph as per program while the adults were killing each other in the golden room. It would also resemble the structure of Ep 3 as in Ep 3 the adults offed each other but the servants were offed by Sayo and the same applied to George and (possibly) to Jessica.

If the planned sacrifices for the first twilight for Prime were Kumasawa, Nanjo, Gohda, Maria, George and Jessica Kyrie and Rudolf might have returned to a rather empty house.

haguruma

2014-05-29, 02:56

The reality-alternative possibility might also be true but wasn't it said that Hachijo refused to meet her? Unless Tohya refused to do so and Ikuko instead met her and handed her all that? Or we were lied about Tohya refusing to meet her?
Well, at least in EP6 (and in a way in 8) Ikuko DID meet with her under the guise of being Tohya. In that way we were not lied to but told only part of the truth. Tohya did refuse to meet with her, but she still met a Hachijo.

Hum... as Hideyoshi isn't shown holding a gun I feel tempted to ask if the Japanese sentence is really that binding or it can be translated in another way that leaves the doubt on who killed Rudolf and Kyrie.
Well, the panel is too narrow to see whether he is holding anything, but no, the sentence leaves no doubt. Literally translated it is: "The doubted Hideyoshi, at the mansion, killed Rudolph and Kyrie."

Interesting enough it doesn't seem like Rudolf is holding a gun but he might have dropped it when he was shoot but what's even more interesting is that Hideyoshi definitely doesn't look like holding one when he faces Kyrie who's on her knees.
I took a look at the manga again and there are some interesting things that the story is telling us.
First of all, there are only two guns, Hideyoshi's and Rudolph's. Hideyoshi hands his gone over to Kyrie because he is going to push the food cart. So they were trying to get food, but we know that it never was about getting food, so that should be a lie. Also, after the Chiesters attack Rudolph and Kyrie and Beatrice reprimands Eva-Beato, Hideyoshi is suddenly holding a gun again, standing amongst the carnage.
It probably really was very confusing and fast, with Hideyoshi acting on impulse more than cold-blooded thoughts...yet, we have to consider these are stories, so more on that now:

For me if Eva was bribed, Sayo is more like trying to go on with her epitaph than anything else so she keeps on killing regardless of Eva's murders... or considers Eva's murders as part of the ritual same way as she does with Genji's murders in other episodes.
This raises an interesting question that was so far only prominently raised in regards to EP5 within the narrative: The question of author and intent.
So, we know that EP3 is not actually written by Sayo but modelled after her tales. This made me think again, with current knowledge, and especially the moment right before the game is suspended struck me as odd or maybe meaningful.

So, on a meta-level BATTLER is disgusted by the deeds of BEATRICE that are carried out by Eva-Beato from the 2nd twilight onwards. So as a way to mend their relationship, BEATRICE attempts to intervene by acting as Beatrice on the gameboard and either mending the horrors committed by Eva-Beato or at least giving them a sweeter taste. She is especially shown trying to give George and Jessica a happy end with Shannon and Kanon respectively, with Eva-Beato intruding on these. She does that, claiming that she is the New Beatrice and insults her "sendaisama", literally, "The Last Generation" as an old hag that has nothing to say anymore since Eva-Beato is now in possession of all the magic.

Now that reminded me of something that Eva-Beato said in EP8 (don't know if only manga or also VN), which is that she is the Beatrice of 1986 to 1998 and that all of the island belongs to her, also that she wants to spin countless Eva-culprit theories that are more horrible than any other.
That made me think further.

Back to EP3, this is when Eva-Beato tries to kill Beato but, while able to destroy her body, is unable to defeat her golden heart. By now we know that the heart of Beatrice's stories is a central symbol of Sayo's message, her attempts and her pleads towards the outside world, so what does that scene tell us. Ronove says that in the moment Beatrice's Golden Heart shone, she became the true Endless Witch Beatrice and that Eva-Beato lost all her powers. Then, when Eva-Beato tries to stomp on Beato's now powerless and battered heart to destroy it completely, Battler intervenes and says that her battle is with him and that she is the true villain of this piece.

This made me think that EP3 and Eva-Beato is less about the story of Eva becoming a culprit, but of how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 and what that means for the narrative of Sayo's tales.

Why does Young-Eva become Eva-Beato in that strange ceremony in the gold room? Let's look at this story not as an actual event, but a theory from the perspective of post-1986 and the perspectives of Tohya and Ange:
In post-1986 Eva did survive and she carried both the ring and succeeded the family, so she was assumed the culprit. At the same time, a being called Beatrice is claimed to be the culprit. So Eva-Beato is the Beatrice of these ideas, not Sayo's Beatrice, that was driven by emotion and a desire to be accepted and found, but the future world's Eva-Beatrice, that was driven by a lust for vengence, blood and carnage.
Eva-Beato in that sense is not Eva, she is the Beatrice of a world in which Eva is the culprit, a world that especially Ange wants to see. And that is exactly what drives BATTLER and by connection Tohya into this corner.

GreyZone

2014-05-29, 10:51

@jjblue1:

I'd say, even in the illusion of the witch, Hideyoshi was killed by Kyrie, so that should be added into the magic culprit paragraph as well.

Uberzaki

2014-05-29, 18:05

As a person who does not like admitting that they are wrong X( It bothers me that Eva killed Kratushi. If you apply the wolf and sheep puzzle, it would require two other accomplices to do it. She also could have just used a shotgun to kill them both (hypothetically, she would have to in order to apply a stake anyway). Well, the same (shotgun and wolf and sheep) could be said for Maria and Rosa's murders. Will mentions "The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade" in EP7, and I guess that Eva counts as the 'obvious culprit'.

The whole wolf and sheep rule is not one that necessarily applies (which it supposedly does with Battler's death), you have think from both sides of the equation (e.g. One sheep was actually a wolf in sheep's clothing).

As for Haguruma's mentioning of Eva Beatrice culprit theory catching on: I kind of agree. AuraTwilight mentions that Beatrice would be taking the fall for someone else and I went on to believe that as symbolism of Beatrice as a 'rule' that Eva-Beatrice would subsequently follow.

jjblue1

2014-05-29, 18:59

@jjblue1:

I'd say, even in the illusion of the witch, Hideyoshi was killed by Kyrie, so that should be added into the magic culprit paragraph as well.

Nope, Eva-Beatrice declared she moved Kyrie's gun with magic to kill Hideyoshi. So officially, for the magic version the culprit is still Eva. Of course, even without the manga confirming it, we could guess that in truth it was Kyrie who shot him.

Well, at least in EP6 (and in a way in 8) Ikuko DID meet with her under the guise of being Tohya. In that way we were not lied to but told only part of the truth. Tohya did refuse to meet with her, but she still met a Hachijo.

Might be but in Ep 8 it's said Ange just contacted the publishing company but they never let her meet him. She doesn't look like she knows Ikuko and the Hachijo tells they were told it was Ange but that Tohya refused to meet her.

Well, the panel is too narrow to see whether he is holding anything, but no, the sentence leaves no doubt. Literally translated it is: "The doubted Hideyoshi, at the mansion, killed Rudolph and Kyrie."

Well, when Kyrie is on the ground we get a close up of Hideyoshi's right hand and he's holding no gun... which looks rather odd to me but maybe it'll be fixed in the volumes?
Oh, okay. I've asked because I saw someone translating it as: "Hideyoshi is suspected. At the mansion, Rudolf and Kyrie are killed."

I took a look at the manga again and there are some interesting things that the story is telling us.
First of all, there are only two guns, Hideyoshi's and Rudolph's. Hideyoshi hands his gone over to Kyrie because he is going to push the food cart. So they were trying to get food, but we know that it never was about getting food, so that should be a lie. Also, after the Chiesters attack Rudolph and Kyrie and Beatrice reprimands Eva-Beato, Hideyoshi is suddenly holding a gun again, standing amongst the carnage.
It probably really was very confusing and fast, with Hideyoshi acting on impulse more than cold-blooded thoughts...yet, we have to consider these are stories, so more on that now:

Yes, but it makes sense that Kyrie would try to get possession of Hideyoshi's gun by suggesting him to push the serving cart before questioning him.
I mean... she looks wise enough to know if they own a gun each things can get ugly for her and Rudolf too.
Also the manga makes clear Kyrie had a gun and Rudolf is lying too far from Kyrie for her to take it from him.

This raises an interesting question that was so far only prominently raised in regards to EP5 within the narrative: The question of author and intent.
So, we know that EP3 is not actually written by Sayo but modelled after her tales. This made me think again, with current knowledge, and especially the moment right before the game is suspended struck me as odd or maybe meaningful.

I'm not sure how to interpret Ep 3, honestly.
It should have love as Meta speaking it was written by Beato therefore the rule epitaph solved=murders stop should hold true.

I'm not sure Eva-Beatrice counts as a Meta character or she's just, like Erika, a piece dragged in the meta room, and even if Battler challenged her, she's just subjected to her master in truth, regardless of her liking it or not and could kill Beatrice on the board merely because that was the plot Beatrice devised so as to trick Battler who can't really differenziate between piece Beatrice and Meta Beatrice (we can clearly see in Ep 5 they're different).

Undoubtely part of the author's intent here is to depict that something went wrong with the plan. Regardless of the fact that the epitaph was solved or Eva was bribed with the promise of being handed the solution Rosa's murder seems more incidental than planned (pushing her against the fence doesn't really look like the best, safest, murdering strategy) and apparently Hideyoshi ended up alone with Rudolf and Kyrie on Kyrie's prompting and not due to his own planning. Kyrie also ended up suspecting of him for a mistake he made.

Considering the author is Tohya he might be trying to deliver a message about Prime, about how things went wrong but actually didn't follow a plan.

But in all this speculation we still have piece Shannon/Kanon deciding to insist this is the work of a witch and killing 2 people (George and Nanjo) and we aren't sure if Jessica was just hidden or was also killed.

As she kills, and she clearly does so on purpose (shooting George and Nanjo doesn't really look like an accident) she hadn't stopped killing therefore the epitaph shouldn't be solved.

Of course magically speaking we can say it's not Beatrice who's doing the killing but Eva-Beatrice but... does this work to excuse piece Sayo from actually killing for her own agenda whatever that can be?

I'm not sure, it could, it could not.

It can entirely be that the whole story is about how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 but the problem is that PieceYasu's actions remain unconnected.

I could accept it as her becoming Eva's servant of some sort as she said she would serve whoever solved the epitaph but I doubt Eva wanted George dead and Sayo really seems to act not in accord with Eva.

So... I'll admit I'm confuse. I can accept the murders being played out as presented by the manga but I can't see the logic behind Sayo's action.

I hope future bits will clear up this further.

haguruma

2014-05-30, 08:37

I'm not sure how to interpret Ep 3, honestly.
It should have love as Meta speaking it was written by Beato therefore the rule epitaph solved=murders stop should hold true.
But exactly that is the part that is important. From a meta-perspective, Beato abandons her rights as the Beatrice of this gameboard mid-game and hands it over to the new Beatrice.
From a narrative standpoint of the meta-plane gameboards aren't written, they are laid out by the GM and then unfold according to how the players progress. In that sense, Eva-Beato in EP3 is very similar to Will in EP7. She is given a certain amount of creative freedom by the GM Beato (as did Bern with Will in 7) but the GM can still call the shots, as Beato did in the very end when she destroyed Eva-Beato.

I'm not sure Eva-Beatrice counts as a Meta character or she's just, like Erika, a piece dragged in the meta room, and even if Battler challenged her, she's just subjected to her master in truth, regardless of her liking it or not and could kill Beatrice on the board merely because that was the plot Beatrice devised so as to trick Battler who can't really differenziate between piece Beatrice and Meta Beatrice (we can clearly see in Ep 5 they're different).
The question here is, was that really Beato's design? Even the plot of EP3 called that into question fairly obviously, since she had no actual power to convinve Eva-Beato to stop her cruelties. She was able to deny her existence as "the true culprit" in the end, like they were able to trap Erika in the end of EP6, but she still had power.
Regarding that Eva-Beato said something very important when Beato reminded her that her acting careless will scare off Battler's will to engage in the game:
"Then that has to do with a world that is no concern of mine! [...] My Predecessor? I am already a witch! Different from you, who can't be a witch without being accepted by some game oponent from another world, I am a witch with magical powers without ever being accepted!"
EP3 does not unfold with the purpose of proving that someone is a witch, but showing how a presupposed witch acts. Remember what Eva was called in the tabloids? "The witch of Rokkenjima"!

Considering the author is Tohya he might be trying to deliver a message about Prime, about how things went wrong but actually didn't follow a plan.
Here is I think one of the key problems where we have different ideas about the authorship. It is always mentioned that the Hachijo's write as a duo. Ikuko is the writer and Tohya gives ideas, proofreads and edits her works. In my understanding, this story was equally thrust unto Tohya as was the message bottles, but in the form of Ikuko's forgery.
We know from CotGW that Sayo's favourite locked room was the one that featured in EP3, which was supposed to be Land of the Golden Witch. So on a meta-meta-level we could even say that Ikuko took this idea and formed a new story out of it, so her Eva-culprit-theory became the intruder Eva-Beato on an already existing gameboard.

As she kills, and she clearly does so on purpose (shooting George and Nanjo doesn't really look like an accident) she hadn't stopped killing therefore the epitaph shouldn't be solved.

It can entirely be that the whole story is about how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 but the problem is that PieceYasu's actions remain unconnected.
And that is exactly the point: Similarly to EP5, the culprit looses a layer of motives and becomes a mere villain by this. Shannon's crimes loose meaning because the narrative looses focus. That is actually also the case to a minor degree in EP4, where the narrative acts in order to confuse Battler and the reader by countering the idea that Kinzo is dead, only to reaffirm it at the end. The only point in which EP4 properly hints towards the true nature of the game is in form of the fantasy narrative, while it completely starts to seperate from the mystery narrative.

I hope future bits will clear up this further.
I would like to learn more about the timeframe in which creation of the forgeries, Tohya's involvement, Confession being found, and his memory returning seem to fit...

jjblue1

2014-05-30, 21:50

But exactly that is the part that is important. From a meta-perspective, Beato abandons her rights as the Beatrice of this gameboard mid-game and hands it over to the new Beatrice.
From a narrative standpoint of the meta-plane gameboards aren't written, they are laid out by the GM and then unfold according to how the players progress. In that sense, Eva-Beato in EP3 is very similar to Will in EP7. She is given a certain amount of creative freedom by the GM Beato (as did Bern with Will in 7) but the GM can still call the shots, as Beato did in the very end when she destroyed Eva-Beato.

She abandones them as culprit but not as GM. We've an interesting talk between Beatrice and Eva-Beatrice in which Beatrice complains Eva isn't acting as planned... which might be a hint to how PieceEva in the gameboard took matters in her own hands and against PieceSayo's plans... but that also confirm that's still Beatrice who's fighting Battler and that Battler is in a different world from Eva-Beatrice (he's in the meta, she's on the gameboard) and that the two can't interact.
Also, Beatrice fully acnowledge game 3 as her own and asks Will to solve it while she won't care about having the solution of Ep 5 which was created by Lambda.
All this seems to point out she was in charge of Ep 3, even if Eva-Beatrice might have been a piece that ended up moving in a way that was different from how she planned it.

We also saw that for the trial in Ep 5 PieceBeato could 'join the meta' even though she didn't become MetaBeato so I guess the same might have happened to Eva-Beatrice when MetaBattler challenged her.

The question here is, was that really Beato's design? Even the plot of EP3 called that into question fairly obviously, since she had no actual power to convinve Eva-Beato to stop her cruelties. She was able to deny her existence as "the true culprit" in the end, like they were able to trap Erika in the end of EP6, but she still had power.
Regarding that Eva-Beato said something very important when Beato reminded her that her acting careless will scare off Battler's will to engage in the game:
"Then that has to do with a world that is no concern of mine! [...] My Predecessor? I am already a witch! Different from you, who can't be a witch without being accepted by some game oponent from another world, I am a witch with magical powers without ever being accepted!"
EP3 does not unfold with the purpose of proving that someone is a witch, but showing how a presupposed witch acts. Remember what Eva was called in the tabloids? "The witch of Rokkenjima"!

Well, it's implied it's MetaBeato's design. She wanted to help Battler solve everything so she created a setting in which she could give him someone who'll help him (Virgilia) and then tried to help him personally.
I'll say the one who has not the power to stop her is PieceBeatrice not MetaBeatrice.
Tohya might have modelled Eva on the Eva he knew from tabloids but that's a matter regarding Prime.

Here is I think one of the key problems where we have different ideas about the authorship. It is always mentioned that the Hachijo's write as a duo. Ikuko is the writer and Tohya gives ideas, proofreads and edits her works. In my understanding, this story was equally thrust unto Tohya as was the message bottles, but in the form of Ikuko's forgery.
We know from CotGW that Sayo's favourite locked room was the one that featured in EP3, which was supposed to be Land of the Golden Witch. So on a meta-meta-level we could even say that Ikuko took this idea and formed a new story out of it, so her Eva-culprit-theory became the intruder Eva-Beato on an already existing gameboard.

I might have expressed myself poorly as I've mentioned only Tohya but I didn't forget Ikuko was likely also a writer of the forgery.
It's possible Ikuko found Land and plagiarized it (after all she had found confession and we were never told about its existence while at least Land gets mentioned so it makes sense Ikuko and Tohya knows about it existing) but I'll say Tohya still have a hand in it. Ikuko didn't seem confident to share her works with others before he came into play... though yes, it can also be Banquet is actually the tale she handed to Battler/Tohya when he was in the hospital and he didn't manage to connect things but later fixed it and they released it?
I guess we need more info?

And that is exactly the point: Similarly to EP5, the culprit looses a layer of motives and becomes a mere villain by this. Shannon's crimes loose meaning because the narrative looses focus. That is actually also the case to a minor degree in EP4, where the narrative acts in order to confuse Battler and the reader by countering the idea that Kinzo is dead, only to reaffirm it at the end. The only point in which EP4 properly hints towards the true nature of the game is in form of the fantasy narrative, while it completely starts to seperate from the mystery narrative.

Yes, but Ep 4 remains clearly a game with love and the only huge problem we've with it it's that fantasy is so much all over the places we've hard time figuring out when things took place. Although helped by Genji (which as I previously stated I found useless as she could have carried out all that on her own) Sayo remains the main culprit, the epitaph isn't solved and so she carries out her ritual and the only big difference from game 1 & 2 is that she kills everyone minus Battler and don't just content herself with the number of people the epitaph required.

haguruma

2014-06-02, 08:48

In some regards we seem to have a completely different reading of several elements within Umineko...though I admit it's kinda fun that even years later we can still have discussions like this.

which might be a hint to how PieceEva in the gameboard took matters in her own hands and against PieceSayo's plans... but that also confirm that's still Beatrice who's fighting Battler and that Battler is in a different world from Eva-Beatrice (he's in the meta, she's on the gameboard) and that the two can't interact.
I think that the conflict between Shannon's (Sayo technically doesn't exist as a piece) and Eva's interests is a part of that discussion, but I don't think it is all, because Eva-Beato is clearly not just Eva. We have Eva-Beatrice filling in for four things actually:

Eva herself directly killing,
The effect Eva's obvious ambition has on other people (Kyrie planning to seperate Eva's branch),
The killings that happen due to Eva's indirect actions (Kyrie, Rudolph, Hideyoshi),
The killings that happen outside of Eva's influence but under the impression it might have been her (George, Nanjo).

More than proving that it is Beato who is still leading the game, she entered a pact with somebody who was a clear threat to her ambition but of course for the reason of making Battler want to trust her over a worse option. And here I think it is where we have to seperate meta-story from meta-meaning.
There is no Beato who tries a strategy on Battler in order to lure him into accepting her, that is the meta-plot that moves parallel to the 1986 and the 1998 plot. It's basically the 1986-reading of the events proposed by Sayo, winning out because both the horribleness and the impossibility of the 1986-1998-reading proposed by society.

Also, Beatrice fully acnowledge game 3 as her own and asks Will to solve it while she won't care about having the solution of Ep 5 which was created by Lambda.
No, Clair vaux Bernadus, the vessel of the true culprit acknowledges and proposes EP3 as a plan of crime of her design. She is not Beatrice, since she only exists on a gameboard where Beatrice does not. Yes, she takes the same shape as Sayo's second Beatrice, but that would still differentiate her from culprit-Beatrice, who has the shape of Kinzo's/Battler's Beatrice.

All this seems to point out she was in charge of Ep 3, even if Eva-Beatrice might have been a piece that ended up moving in a way that was different from how she planned it.

We also saw that for the trial in Ep 5 PieceBeato could 'join the meta' even though she didn't become MetaBeato so I guess the same might have happened to Eva-Beatrice when MetaBattler challenged her.
I wouldn't fully claim these Beato's to be pieces, since we do not know by whose design they are moved. If any it would be Lambda, since Beato is clearly working against Bern, but that would enter the question why Lambda would propose a heartless game in which a Beato with a heart exists and struggles to prove it. The Beato that joins the court is apparently somewhere inbetween, since she has Sayo's relationship with Battler but apparently not the full kndowledge of the boards to be able to protect Natsuhi...she is more a part of Sayo's rules crystalized in the form of Beato in a game where she actually has no reason to exist.

Yes, but Ep 4 remains clearly a game with love and the only huge problem we've with it it's that fantasy is so much all over the places we've hard time figuring out when things took place.
I think EP4 is much more than just that. One thing that springs to my mind is the fact of actually two Beatrice's existing here already, who are clearly in direct contact with each other but share different goals.
One of the big things I am proposing is, and I don't know if that got across, is that MetaBeato is not Sayo and is basically not even Sayo's Beatrice, she is the Hachijo's (mainly Tohya's) Beatrice. There is a very central scene in EP4 where PieceBeato enters back from the balcony after Battler showed incapable of solving her riddle, then the two Beatrice's (meta and fiction) face each other and MetaBeatrice tells her that she can rest now and she will take over from here.
Yes, on the one hand this shows that this is the point where Shannon decided to let it all go and let everybody die, on the other hand the event goes on to MetaBeato wanting to discard the game altogether. Why would this have any relevance if this was merely Sayo's intent, since Battler/Tohya cannot be further influenced by an action that Sayo (who is likely dead) would take.

jjblue1

2014-06-02, 16:25

In some regards we seem to have a completely different reading of several elements within Umineko...though I admit it's kinda fun that even years later we can still have discussions like this.

LOL, I agree. With Umineko one never ends to discuss about it.

I think that the conflict between Shannon's (Sayo technically doesn't exist as a piece) and Eva's interests is a part of that discussion, but I don't think it is all, because Eva-Beato is clearly not just Eva. We have Eva-Beatrice filling in for four things actually:

Eva herself directly killing,
The effect Eva's obvious ambition has on other people (Kyrie planning to seperate Eva's branch),
The killings that happen due to Eva's indirect actions (Kyrie, Rudolph, Hideyoshi),
The killings that happen outside of Eva's influence but under the impression it might have been her (George, Nanjo).

Well, to me Eva-Beatrice is a fantasy explanation similar to the Beatrice of Ep 5.
Beatrice of Ep 5 seems a single character but part of her she stands in for Natsuhi's fantasies, part of her works to offer a cover up for the man of 19 years ago's plan (the letter, the corpses disapeparing) and a part might work to support the fantasy-meta theme (Beatrice interacting with Battler, jumping in his arms, remembering the past games or despairing over how he doesn't remember his promise surely doesn't fit Natsuhi's Beatrice but likely not even the man of 19 years ago's Beatrice as he can't have awareness of the previous boards and apparently is more focused in revenge than in Battler).

Ultimately though, although Beatrice has apparently some freedom of action (it's Beatrice's party who handed Battler the ring and supposedly caused the corpses to disappear according to the magic narrative... and Beatrice will go so far as to claim she even killed the servant and caused the baby's fall) and even speaks up at the trial, she's just... a magic explanation, a fantasy character that doesn't reperesent a single person but various stuffs.

For me Eva-Beatrice's situation is similar. She stands in as a magic explanation for various stuffs, implying Eva's involvement in some of them in a rather obvious way but, at the same time, not necessarily being Eva or even someone in control. She's just 'the culprit' in some facts, same as Beatrice claimed to be in Ep 5.

If however we wonder on a Prime angle on why Eva-Beatrice exists, likely it is because in Tohya's world the culprit isn't Sayo with her Beatrice but Eva. If they think that there's someone behind those mysterious happenings they think it was Eva pretending to be Beatrice, not someone else.

Ep 3 was probably structured to create a let's call it 'Sayo's game board' that however would work with the truths and beliefs of Prime.

If we look at Ep 3 carefully in a way it resembles Ep 7 Teaparty.
In Ep 7 Teaparty Eva kills a person by mistake (Natsuhi) and in Ep 3 Rosa's murder was likely not planned. Then there's another murder due to the reaction of this person at the first murder (Krauss attacked Eva who killed Natsuhi, Maria made too much noise when her mother was killed by Eva). The following murder takes place after a debate over Eva (and Hideyoshi) killing on purpose or by mistake Natsuhi and Krauss in the Teaparty and over Kyrie suspecting Eva and Hideyoshi to be the one who murdered Rosa. We've a person shoot that she didn't die and therefore got her chance to shoot as well (Kyrie, although she'll die later on in Ep 3 and Eva in the Teaparty). We've 2 murders done likely out of the suspicions the others were responsible of murdering someone else (likely Eva though Natsuhi and Krauss were responsible for Hideyoshi's death and in the Teaparty she was sure Kyrie and Rudolf were the culprits).
Then we've the murders of the servants and of George and Jessica of whom Eva knows nothing about and can only speculate on who killed them.

In short in a way both settings have similar elements even if the background is pretty different.

No, Clair vaux Bernadus, the vessel of the true culprit acknowledges and proposes EP3 as a plan of crime of her design. She is not Beatrice, since she only exists on a gameboard where Beatrice does not. Yes, she takes the same shape as Sayo's second Beatrice, but that would still differentiate her from culprit-Beatrice, who has the shape of Kinzo's/Battler's Beatrice.

Beatrice acknowledged that gameboard in Ep 4 as well. Battler has to solve it in order to win. And I'm not sure we can say that Clair exists in a gameboard in which Beato doesn't exist. That gameboard is a patchwork of a gameboard in which Beato didn't exist and one in which she did. The true culprit shouldn't exist as a separate existence in Lion's world (Lion and the true culprit are... let's call it the same person in 2 different fragments) so it must also come from the world in which it didn't exist.

(On a sidenote I can't say I exactly loved the idea to introduce Clair as another identity for Sayo but I'm toying with the idea that Clair isn't exacly Sayo but more the personification of 'Confession of the Golden Witch' so she works as Narrator. The petals scattering when Will hit her might be a poetic way to name the piece of papers on which the confession was written... not that I expect the manga to confirm this)

I wouldn't fully claim these Beato's to be pieces, since we do not know by whose design they are moved. If any it would be Lambda, since Beato is clearly working against Bern, but that would enter the question why Lambda would propose a heartless game in which a Beato with a heart exists and struggles to prove it. The Beato that joins the court is apparently somewhere inbetween, since she has Sayo's relationship with Battler but apparently not the full kndowledge of the boards to be able to protect Natsuhi...she is more a part of Sayo's rules crystalized in the form of Beato in a game where she actually has no reason to exist.

Well, for me the piece called Beatrice is always not a real person but the personification of the 'rule' that for every mysterious happening Beatrice is the one that gets blamed. In short on the gameboard she's not more alive than the Chiesters (which are just guns) or the sever sisters (paper weights) but that in the magic setting have a character, a heart, meta knowledge and so on. She can however look like she has a vessel because often it's Sayo who causes the mysterious happenings for which Beatrice gets blamed... but actually in Ep 3 we see that it's Beatrice that in the end kills Rosa and Maria when instead we've just seen confirmation that it was Eva (the scene is interesting because Beatrice becomes the culprit when Battler rejects the things Eva was doing... which might also be Battler rejecting Eva might be the culprit).

I think EP4 is much more than just that. One thing that springs to my mind is the fact of actually two Beatrice's existing here already, who are clearly in direct contact with each other but share different goals.
One of the big things I am proposing is, and I don't know if that got across, is that MetaBeato is not Sayo and is basically not even Sayo's Beatrice, she is the Hachijo's (mainly Tohya's) Beatrice. There is a very central scene in EP4 where PieceBeato enters back from the balcony after Battler showed incapable of solving her riddle, then the two Beatrice's (meta and fiction) face each other and MetaBeatrice tells her that she can rest now and she will take over from here.
Yes, on the one hand this shows that this is the point where Shannon decided to let it all go and let everybody die, on the other hand the event goes on to MetaBeato wanting to discard the game altogether. Why would this have any relevance if this was merely Sayo's intent, since Battler/Tohya cannot be further influenced by an action that Sayo (who is likely dead) would take.

While I'm a supporter of the idea MetaBeato exists only in Tohya's mind for me the dialogue between the two Beato is nothing else but a monologue in Sayo's head. We saw the manga reinforcing the idea of Sayo representing the conflicts in her mind with herself, Kanon and Beatrice. Sayo right then was just dressed as Beatrice, which is why we see it as a dialogue between Beatrice and Beatrice and not between Beatrice and Sayo (or Shannon if you prefer).

The whole 'I'll clean up for you' might merely be a reference to how everything will be covered up by 'Beatrice's magic' so that Beatrice will look like the culprit and not Sayo. 'Beatrice's magic' will also be what will 'magically' kill Battler (the bomb).

On a sidenote I really enjoy discussing Umineko with you so thank you for giving me the possibility to theorize more!

haguruma

2014-06-03, 08:29

I really enjoy the discussion too. It gives me a little bit time to relax and let of steam, since none of my Japanese friends has actually caught up to EP8 in the manga so far...since it was me who actually got them to read it in the first place :heh:

despairing over how he doesn't remember his promise surely doesn't fit Natsuhi's Beatrice but likely not even the man of 19 years ago's Beatrice as he can't have awareness of the previous boards and apparently is more focused in revenge than in Battler).
Actually this point kind of points into the direction I am going: Similar to EP3, the true culprit in EP5 and Beato are separated into having dissimilar goals. EP1 and 2 clearly exist in the framework that Sayo put up for her stories, she murders people, with the help of a co-culprit, under the the guise of the witch Beatrice, handing out numerous hints in order to guide people towards understanding her. EP3 is working from a deductive standpoint that succeded the reality of 1986-Rokkenjima: "Murder is said to have happened, only living people can murder, Ushiromiya Eva is alive, therefore Ushiromiya Eva is the murderer!" And yet it also introduces doubt about Eva's culpability, absolving her of at least half of the murders happened. Basically you could also say that she acts in a manner similar to Erika in EP5 and 6, ending up in a logic error.

Having reread it today, I would say that EP4 is inherently different from EP1 and 2 as well though, since it basically centralizes the plot of the family head Ushiromiya "Goldsmith" Lion and not that of Sayo/Beatrice. On the island plot we are introduced this time to an acting "Kinzo" who decides to sacrifice his whole family in order to "give back all that he owns in return for Beatrice". The idea of "being stopped" is only introduced at the very end when a human Beatrice (not necessarily the witch) and Battler encounter and she demands him remembering his promise and atoning for his sin. This is basically the story of the side of Sayo that has already given up hope for survival and only wants a last bit of gratification before her great family suicide.

If however we wonder on a Prime angle on why Eva-Beatrice exists, likely it is because in Tohya's world the culprit isn't Sayo with her Beatrice but Eva. If they think that there's someone behind those mysterious happenings they think it was Eva pretending to be Beatrice, not someone else.
But Eva is not the culprit in Prime, Kyrie and Rudolph are the central killers in prime (I will for semantic reasons refrain from using the word murderer, since their action lacks a lot of the planning that goes with Sayo's idea of murder), yet the narrative of Banquet of the Golden Witch exists as a forgery in Prime.
Remember what Black-Battler said in Forgery No.xxx, he exists because of the many people who long for an explanation in which Ushiromiya Battler is the murderer. Eva-Beato to me is similar, she is an amalgamation of Eva-culprit-theories given shape.

Ep 3 was probably structured to create a let's call it 'Sayo's game board' that however would work with the truths and beliefs of Prime.
And yet it didn't work. Which is why I still believe that, if it was created by Ikuko, it was created before the Hachijo's knew the whole scope of the truth.

On a sidenote I can't say I exactly loved the idea to introduce Clair as another identity for Sayo but I'm toying with the idea that Clair isn't exacly Sayo but more the personification of 'Confession of the Golden Witch' so she works as Narrator.
That's exactly as I see it and that is why Lion's world can only exist in the confines of the unopened catbox. Lion's world is a world that can connect to the events post 1986 but it is ruled out by the existence of Confession of the Golden Witch, in the form of Clair.

Well, for me the piece called Beatrice is always not a real person but the personification of the 'rule' that for every mysterious happening Beatrice is the one that gets blamed.
Yet in EP1 and 2 you can basically equate this: Beatrice killing people=Sayo killing people.

While I'm a supporter of the idea MetaBeato exists only in Tohya's mind for me the dialogue between the two Beato is nothing else but a monologue in Sayo's head.
I would agree that it is partly that, but it is also important that this scene extends into the Meta-Parlour. It is MetaBeato who then poses the questions about Battler's identity and this is where the individual planes really start mixing and it becomes a question of who is who, since this MetaBeato is also the one who recedes to the Golden Land in order to be with Maria and cries over her lost chances. So I wouldn't say she exists only in Tohya's mind in the sense that she is only made of Tohya, but also of what Sayo wished for, which becomes very apparent in the EP4 manga:
Sadly these two pages (1 (http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/6649/08-026.0/compressed/s26_59.jpg?v=11325602963) and 2 (http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/6649/08-026.0/compressed/s26_60.jpg?v=11325602963)) had a horrible translation done to them...
It should actually be: "Try and stop me (Beatrice's form of me, warawa)! - If you just hadn't returned! - I never wanted to be born! - Can't I love anybody? - Please, whatever the outcome may be, at least in my stories... - ...kill me (Simple form of me also used by Shannon, watashi) - and if not that - you should die!"
What MetaBeato from EP1-5 likely is, is the lingering regret and the sadness of Sayo, kept alive by Tohya's feelings of guilt and him having been unable to do anything. This is for me also why MetaBattler (after he understands) becomes first so intent on giving Beato the happy ending she deserved (by trying to revive her and marry her in EP6) and also gave her eternal rest in EP7.

Oh and concerning a former question that was raised by you I think, I had another look at the EP7 manga and it appears like the order of murders in EP4 is actually supposed to be: Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, the 5 adults in the dining hall, George, Gohda and Kumasawa, Jessica, Maria, and finally Genji.

fuff

2014-06-04, 05:05

haguruma

2014-06-04, 07:20

just a quick question according to the the wikia page the witches and furniture where made up character/imaginary friend created by maria and sayo...does that mean none of the witches and furniture exist at all?? but then the whole ange/bern thing doesnt make sense....or is that part of the story battler created about witches existing? i dunno im kinda confused on the whole meta world and the existance of the witches/states of purgatory
This is not an easy question to answer since it is one of the main points of Umineko as a whole to draw the line between truth and fiction into question. There is also no absolute consensus among the fans regarding that topic either, so I can only give you an outline of my ideas (also not wanting to spoil you too much, since you apparently haven't finished EP8 as the VN yet).

As I said, this is according to my personal understanding:
To understand the nature of the witches and demons sorrounding Rokkenjima, we have to question where they stem from. Did Beatrice really start with Sayo imagining her, or didn't it already start with the stories Kinzo and his servants told?! The character of Beatrice has, so to speak, taken on a life of her own, far beyond the confines of one persons imagination, and thus, in a certain way, "exists".
The same goes for Sayo and Maria's magical group of friends, Marriage Sorciere, which later took on darker sides in Sayo's message bottle stories. Since these stories (at least two of them) got spread and copied, and new stories involving them were forged, the characters started "existing" beyond the borders of just her stories.

The question gets a lot more difficult when it comes to Bern, Lambda, or Featherine, since these "Voyagers" and "Theatergoers" exist beyond the confines of one specific gameboard. They are not bound to the catbox that is Rokkenjima.
There are two ways I can see them.
One is the overarching purpose to portray larger "rules" and "ways of thinking", like Bern governing "miracles" and standing in for those who "love to heartlessly rip stories to shreds until only guts remain". This would make Ange's story highly allegorical.
The other is them actually existing, but having no larger influence unto the plane of human existence beyond slightly nudging people in certain directions. In that sense they'd still be a metaphor for authors and readers, basically us, the people with no emotional attachment to the stories we observe.

EDIT:
Since I apparently never added the full translation of chapter 24 (and got my hands on a cheap copy of the February issue of Joker, which will bring us the Interlude chapter as well), I decided to mend that and put the translation for that up for now.

p.1
Erika:
Congratulations!
At last you made it
To the full stop of your life!

Finally the truth will be unveiled.....!!

p.2
Eva-Beato:
Now you only have to take that key to Lady Bernkastel
Her cat-familiar will show you the way
There the One Truth that you long for awaits you.

Ange:
....I see.
Then I'll go and have a look

p.3
Erika:
It's been only a short while, but it was fun
It was precious time that taught me that we hold the same disgust for your family

Ange:
Same here
But next time we meet, tell me beforehand if we get served that horrible black tea again

Eva-Beato:
Ange....
are you happy now?

Ange:
To get to know that secret you maliciously kept during all those 12 years at least
Yes, I am happy.

p.4
Ange:
Huh...now I finally understand how Erika feels
To reveal your tour-de-force of murder that you protected until your death
I think I will enjoy returning all those blows

Eva-Beato:
So this all feels good to you?

Ange:
It more or less evens itself out

p.5
Eva-Beato:
Have a nice trip, Ange
This is the path that you chose
You are no longer 6 years old but already 18
You have to choose how to live your life on your own...

Erika:
You really care too much, auntie

p.6
Eva-Beato:
I will take a look at how the ceremony is proceeding, what about you?

Erika:
We will soon go to war, so I'll head for the ship.
I shall bring back Beato's corpse as a little present
then we can make a party out of disemboweling her.
I already secured her hide for myself, so we can stuff and display her

Eva-Beato:
So this
This is the end of the tale of Rokkenjima, wrapped in the veil of mystery

Erika:
That means an end to you as a piece as well
doesn't it?!

Eva-Beato:
The same goes for you.
The role of a piece is to stay loyal to their role until the end of the game.
It is not our place to think about what happens after that.

p.7
Erika:
True, true
So let us enjoy the time we have left together

Chapter 24: The Book of the One Truth

p.8
Witch-Hunter A:
Oh hello, Professor Ôtsuki!

p.9
Ôtsuki:
Oh, it must have been since the last Rokkenjima Mystery Convention that we met!
We have to do that again. With this topic there is never enough time to talk about everything.
Recently I found somebody with a most fascinating interpretation.

Witch-Hunter A:
Yes, we have to meet again!
Oh yes, that person seems to be amazing. And today it just overflows with reporters.

Ôtsuki:
Well the Rokkenjima Mystery has become such a large movement, you could call it a social phenomenon.
But today is something even more special, right?!

Witch-Hunter B:
But is it really true? Does this diary of Ushiromiya Eva really exist?
For something like that to be made public...

Ôtsuki:
Well, I also only heard rumors, that she secretly wrote down the truth of Rokkenjima...!

Witch-Hunter C:
I heard that some collector from Dubai offered to pay 10 million dollar for it...!

Witch-Hunter B:
That's awesome...it just proofs the fascination that comes with the Rokkenjima mystery

Witch-Hunter A:
So the diary is currently held by the great Itô Ikukurô...
that forgery author who is rumored to have arrived at the real truth?

Ôtsuki:
But have you already hear? That the great Itô Ikukurô........

p.10
Ôtsuki:
.....is actually the mystery writer Hachijô Tôya...

p.11
Hachijô:
...Indeed, I am Hachijô Tôya.

Reporter:
You refused to appear on any signing events in the past, going so far as to cast a body double,
so what made you change your mind so far that you agreed to go public?

Hachijô:
The Legend of the Witch of Rokkenjima has given life to endless tales.
So if you think about the meaning of lowering the curtain on something as such,
I felt it was my my duty, as the one who started all this writing, to show respect by revealing myself.

Reporter A:
You in the role as a forgery writer have claimed on the internet, to have found the truth!
Does that mean that you have already taken a look at the content of the diary?

p.12
Hachijô:
And very, very soon
it shall be made public for all of you to see.

Reporter B:
Is there any insurance that the content of the diary is actually the truth?!
There are people who claim that it could just be a one-sided personal record of events!

Hachijô:
No, I assure you,
The truth is written down in this diary

p.13
Announcer:
We will now end the interview with Hachijô-sensei! Ladies and Gentlemen of the press, we thank you all for coming today!

Reporter B:
How can you be able to claim that it is the truth?!

Reporter C:
Do you have any kind of connection to somebody involved in the incident...?

Announcer:
After this...
we are planning to move on to the photographing session of Mrs. Ushiromiya Eva's diary.

p.14
Announcer:
With this we are closing the interview session.

Reporter C:
Hachijô-sensei! Just a word about how you obtained the diary, please!

Reporter A:
So how much do you actually know about the true culprit?

Announcer:
We would like to ask everybody to move over to the convention hall!

p.15
Bern:
They showed some enthusiasm. Was it fun?

Featherine:
It's tiring
But not necessarily bad.
Nevertheless, this diary is heavy.
I will go to the waiting room to digest all that excitement for now.

Bern:
So I will borrow this.
I promised Ange, that I would show it to her first

Featherine:
Then do as you please.

p.17
Bern:
Sorry to keep you waiting.
See, I brought it with me,
The Book of the One Truth!

Ange:
Can I....touch it?

p.18
Ange:
So this is...aunt Eva's...diary...

Bern:
Yes!
In there, all that you ever wanted to know, even if it meant trading in your life, is written down.
About what happened on October 4th and 5th in 1986,
the truth.
You do have the key, right?

p.19
Bern:
No need to hurry
You may open it whenever you have prepared yourself

p.20
Ange:
In there
lies the terminal stop of my 12 year long journey full of hardship and pain.
I lived on to get this into my hands
and now that I have it I can finally go to the land of death where everybody is waiting for me.
At this point I have no more regrets.
There is no need to hesitate anymore.

p.21
Ange:
So why now of all times

p.22
Ange:
Haven't I decided a long time ago?
Decided that nobody will ever come back alive?
Decided that no matter how bloody and cruel a truth may wait for me
I will accept it?
Weren't these 12 years enough
that I want these useless days of tears and dirt to continue?

p.23
Ange:
Even now that I stand before my executioner, I don't seem to have the power to throw away that sweet hope for that miracle.
I could just puke.

p.24
Bern:
Now that you have made your choice with that key
a part of it's magic is lost

Ange:
....what magic?

Bern:
Didn't Battler tell you? That "you are unable to hand this key over to anybody else"?

p.25
Bern:
The magic of "giving you a choice" has now outlived it's role and vanished.
Now this is but a simple key
with no use but to open and lock this diary.

Ange:
...I see
So it is useless now, right?

Bern:
Can I have it then?
I will lock it once more after you have read it.
I want to have a proper ceremony when opening the lock at the party.
You will die now anyway.
So it's okay, right?!

Ange:
Do with it whatever you want...
I don't care about anything that happens after I have gained the truth.

Bern:
Then, off you go

p.26
Bern:
Before the courage to know the truth might accidentally leave you, right?!

p.27
Ange:
.......
.......one deep breath
...................
...................no
I have already gathered my resolve long ago.
I would only look foolish if I let my heart grow any more hesitant about this, so...

p.28
.............
.............
farewell, everyone....
I will come to you soon anyway
......
......so tell me

p.29-30
Ange:
What happened
on that day
on Rokkenjima...?

Eva's Diary:
I write this down in order to forget.
No. I might write this down because I actually don't want to forget.
Aah, the reason doesn't matter in the end.
If I don't spit out everything about that day
I might just go insane.

p.33-34
Ange:
..........
.........I
have heard this....
.....somewhere before....

????:
I told you countless times that there was no Gamemaster

p.35-36
Bern:
THIS IS ALL TRUTH

p.38
Ange:
This is supposed to be the truth of Rokkenjima?
I won't accept it...

Book:
You say you won't accept it? This is the truth we're talking about!!
XXXXX is the culprit!!

Ange:
But Bernkastel already denied it!
This just has to be some random ramblings, right?!
I won't accept it!
I won't accept it!!
This is just something to make me confused and ridicule me!

p.39
Book:
XXXXX and XXXXXXX killed XXXX!
They also killed XXXXX, XXXXXXXX, XXXXXX and XXXXXXX!!!

Ange:
I won't accept it
I won't accept it
I won't accept a truth like that...
I was ready!
Ready for whatever gruesome way of killing my parents that diary was to describe...
I planned to accept that

p.40
Ange:
I won't accept it......!!

Book:
NO MATTER IF YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT, THE TRUTH WILL NOT CHANGE!!!
BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONE TRUTH THAT WAS ALREADY PROVEN BY THE RED TRUUUUUUUUUUUUUTH!!!

p.41-42
Ange:
I WON'T ALLOW THIS!
I WILL NEVER GO ALONG WITH THIS...!!

p.43
Ange:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The Red Truth is certain?!
That is your kind of certain, right?!
It's not my understanding of certain!!
I won't let my truth be stained by something like this!!

Bern:
Calm down, Ange.
You were the one who wanted to know, right?!

Ange:
MY TRUTH IS THAT AUNT EVA IS THE CULPRIT!!
AUNT EVA KILLED THEM ALL!! IT'S ALL HER FAULT!!

p.44
Ange:
PAPA AND MAMA AND MY BIG BROTHER, THEY ARE ALL JUST VICTIMS...!!
NONE OF THEM IS TO BLAME, RIGHT
RIGHT?!?

Eva & Eva-Beato:
Your auntie will always be at your side, Ange.

Ange:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAH, NOW I UNDERSTAND THOSE WORDS!!
YES, AUNT EVA, YOU ARE THE CULPRIT!! IT HAS TO BE THAT WAY!!

p.45
Ange:
IT'S ME WHO'S RIGHT!
THE WORLD IS WEIRD FOR NOT ACCEPTING THAT!
IT'S BROKEN!!
I REFUSE THE RED TRUTH
I REFUSE THE WHOLE WORLD!!!

Bern:
Really...
Then show me a Red Truth that only you can write.
But how could a human ever write the Red Truth?

Ange:
I CAN!
I WILL SHOW YOU A RED INK THAT ONLY HUMANS CAN WRITE WITH!!

p.46
Ange:
I AM RIGHT!!
THE WORLD IS WRONG!!
I WILL WRITE IT DOWN FOR YOU
MY OWN RED TRUTH!!
DON'T EVER THINK THAT I WOULD ACCEPT TO THE TRUTH OF YOUR WOOOOOOOOOOORLD!!!

p.49
Bern:
Do you really have the resolve to know the truth...?
You didn't have it in the end after all,
that resolve.
What a bunch of fools.
Do they think that somebody could go unharmed after falling from such a height?
A safety net?
Do you think that something as thin as a safety net could actually safe a human being...?

p.50
Bern:
As the Witch of Miracles I, Bernkastel, assure you
that a miracle like that will certainly not occur.
Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998
As a result of Eva's death, Ushiromiya Ange takes off on a journey to learn the truth in '98
and the definitely dies in '98 as well.
Battler tried with so much effort to keep you from arriving at this unhappy future.
It was all just a useless struggle.

p.51
Bern:
Goodbye, Ange
Have a nice day

p.54
Eva-Beato:
This too...is part of your choice...Ange
I tried to keep you alive...
but you never actually tried living past the time when you were 6 years old.
So this is just you taking 12 long years to return to your starting point in the end.
You were able to die.
But that does not immediately mean that you will be welcomed into heaven with all the others.
Remember? You ended up here by rejecting all of them being in heaven.

p.55
Eva-Beato:
See you in hell.
...no, this was probably already it.
Farewell, Ange.

Bern:
Oh my, EVA
Just the one I was looking for

Eva-Beato:
You have orders for me, my master?

p.56
Bern:
Would you be so kind and help my kitties clean up the meat-scraps around here?
I will quickly give this back.

Eva-Beato:
What should we do with her remains?

Bern:
Just throw them all into the ocean of nothingness.
In order to expose a way to disembowel Beato she was put into a loop countless times and made a piece again and again,
but now she has completely outlived her usefulness.

Eva-Beato:
I see, my master.

p.57
Bern:
Even if you loose your name, your goal, all the memories in your soul,
keep searching for that answer you desire and suffer to your hearts content.
Get cast away to the deepest depth of oblivion, until you vanish buried under dust
for all eternity!

This is an end that is too sad...

Becca-chan

2014-06-05, 16:55

( Hello, I come out of lurking!)

I just want to share something that I was just working on.
It involves the bit with the Book of One Truth, well...the part where it starts telling Ange the truth that is.
I don't know if the number of X's in the text are relevant and if they aren't, just let me know.

The culprits name is comprised of 5 letters, their partner is comprised of 7 letters.

Those with 5 letters in their names are:
Genji
Kanon
Nanjo
Gohda
Kyrie
Maria
Kinzo

And those with 7 letters in their names are:
Shannon
Natsuhi
Jessica
Battler

But there is only one in each list that have actually been included in the planning of Sayo's stories...
So filling in the blanks and guessing that the truth-in-question is saying about what really happened in the Gold Room and the after-effects.

" Genji is the culprit!!

Genji and Shannon killed Rosa!
They also killed Gohda, Kumasawa, Krauss and Natsuhi!!!"

Of course that's just one variation of the outcomes.

AuraTwilight

2014-06-06, 12:14

Counting letters isn't very helpful considering the original text is in Japanese, which would have a different character count for everyone's names. :P

fuff

2014-06-06, 17:48

This is not an easy question to answer since it is one of the main points of Umineko as a whole to draw the line between truth and fiction into question. There is also no absolute consensus among the fans regarding that topic either, so I can only give you an outline of my ideas (also not wanting to spoil you too much, since you apparently haven't finished EP8 as the VN yet).

As I said, this is according to my personal understanding:
To understand the nature of the witches and demons sorrounding Rokkenjima, we have to question where they stem from. Did Beatrice really start with Sayo imagining her, or didn't it already start with the stories Kinzo and his servants told?! The character of Beatrice has, so to speak, taken on a life of her own, far beyond the confines of one persons imagination, and thus, in a certain way, "exists".
The same goes for Sayo and Maria's magical group of friends, Marriage Sorciere, which later took on darker sides in Sayo's message bottle stories. Since these stories (at least two of them) got spread and copied, and new stories involving them were forged, the characters started "existing" beyond the borders of just her stories.

The question gets a lot more difficult when it comes to Bern, Lambda, or Featherine, since these "Voyagers" and "Theatergoers" exist beyond the confines of one specific gameboard. They are not bound to the catbox that is Rokkenjima.
There are two ways I can see them.
One is the overarching purpose to portray larger "rules" and "ways of thinking", like Bern governing "miracles" and standing in for those who "love to heartlessly rip stories to shreds until only guts remain". This would make Ange's story highly allegorical.
The other is them actually existing, but having no larger influence unto the plane of human existence beyond slightly nudging people in certain directions. In that sense they'd still be a metaphor for authors and readers, basically us, the people with no emotional attachment to the stories we observe.

EDIT:
Since I apparently never added the full translation of chapter 24 (and got my hands on a cheap copy of the February issue of Joker, which will bring us the Interlude chapter as well), I decided to mend that and put the translation for that up for now.

p.1
Erika:
Congratulations!
At last you made it
To the full stop of your life!

Finally the truth will be unveiled.....!!

p.2
Eva-Beato:
Now you only have to take that key to Lady Bernkastel
Her cat-familiar will show you the way
There the One Truth that you long for awaits you.

Ange:
....I see.
Then I'll go and have a look

p.3
Erika:
It's been only a short while, but it was fun
It was precious time that taught me that we hold the same disgust for your family

Ange:
Same here
But next time we meet, tell me beforehand if we get served that horrible black tea again

Eva-Beato:
Ange....
are you happy now?

Ange:
To get to know that secret you maliciously kept during all those 12 years at least
Yes, I am happy.

p.4
Ange:
Huh...now I finally understand how Erika feels
To reveal your tour-de-force of murder that you protected until your death
I think I will enjoy returning all those blows

Eva-Beato:
So this all feels good to you?

Ange:
It more or less evens itself out

p.5
Eva-Beato:
Have a nice trip, Ange
This is the path that you chose
You are no longer 6 years old but already 18
You have to choose how to live your life on your own...

Erika:
You really care too much, auntie

p.6
Eva-Beato:
I will take a look at how the ceremony is proceeding, what about you?

Erika:
We will soon go to war, so I'll head for the ship.
I shall bring back Beato's corpse as a little present
then we can make a party out of disemboweling her.
I already secured her hide for myself, so we can stuff and display her

Eva-Beato:
So this
This is the end of the tale of Rokkenjima, wrapped in the veil of mystery

Erika:
That means an end to you as a piece as well
doesn't it?!

Eva-Beato:
The same goes for you.
The role of a piece is to stay loyal to their role until the end of the game.
It is not our place to think about what happens after that.

p.7
Erika:
True, true
So let us enjoy the time we have left together

Chapter 24: The Book of the One Truth

p.8
Witch-Hunter A:
Oh hello, Professor Ôtsuki!

p.9
Ôtsuki:
Oh, it must have been since the last Rokkenjima Mystery Convention that we met!
We have to do that again. With this topic there is never enough time to talk about everything.
Recently I found somebody with a most fascinating interpretation.

Witch-Hunter A:
Yes, we have to meet again!
Oh yes, that person seems to be amazing. And today it just overflows with reporters.

Ôtsuki:
Well the Rokkenjima Mystery has become such a large movement, you could call it a social phenomenon.
But today is something even more special, right?!

Witch-Hunter B:
But is it really true? Does this diary of Ushiromiya Eva really exist?
For something like that to be made public...

Ôtsuki:
Well, I also only heard rumors, that she secretly wrote down the truth of Rokkenjima...!

Witch-Hunter C:
I heard that some collector from Dubai offered to pay 10 million dollar for it...!

Witch-Hunter B:
That's awesome...it just proofs the fascination that comes with the Rokkenjima mystery

Witch-Hunter A:
So the diary is currently held by the great Itô Ikukurô...
that forgery author who is rumored to have arrived at the real truth?

Ôtsuki:
But have you already hear? That the great Itô Ikukurô........

p.10
Ôtsuki:
.....is actually the mystery writer Hachijô Tôya...

p.11
Hachijô:
...Indeed, I am Hachijô Tôya.

Reporter:
You refused to appear on any signing events in the past, going so far as to cast a body double,
so what made you change your mind so far that you agreed to go public?

Hachijô:
The Legend of the Witch of Rokkenjima has given life to endless tales.
So if you think about the meaning of lowering the curtain on something as such,
I felt it was my my duty, as the one who started all this writing, to show respect by revealing myself.

Reporter A:
You in the role as a forgery writer have claimed on the internet, to have found the truth!
Does that mean that you have already taken a look at the content of the diary?

p.12
Hachijô:
And very, very soon
it shall be made public for all of you to see.

Reporter B:
Is there any insurance that the content of the diary is actually the truth?!
There are people who claim that it could just be a one-sided personal record of events!

Hachijô:
No, I assure you,
The truth is written down in this diary

p.13
Announcer:
We will now end the interview with Hachijô-sensei! Ladies and Gentlemen of the press, we thank you all for coming today!

Reporter B:
How can you be able to claim that it is the truth?!

Reporter C:
Do you have any kind of connection to somebody involved in the incident...?

Announcer:
After this...
we are planning to move on to the photographing session of Mrs. Ushiromiya Eva's diary.

p.14
Announcer:
With this we are closing the interview session.

Reporter C:
Hachijô-sensei! Just a word about how you obtained the diary, please!

Reporter A:
So how much do you actually know about the true culprit?

Announcer:
We would like to ask everybody to move over to the convention hall!

p.15
Bern:
They showed some enthusiasm. Was it fun?

Featherine:
It's tiring
But not necessarily bad.
Nevertheless, this diary is heavy.
I will go to the waiting room to digest all that excitement for now.

Bern:
So I will borrow this.
I promised Ange, that I would show it to her first

Featherine:
Then do as you please.

p.17
Bern:
Sorry to keep you waiting.
See, I brought it with me,
The Book of the One Truth!

Ange:
Can I....touch it?

p.18
Ange:
So this is...aunt Eva's...diary...

Bern:
Yes!
In there, all that you ever wanted to know, even if it meant trading in your life, is written down.
About what happened on October 4th and 5th in 1986,
the truth.
You do have the key, right?

p.19
Bern:
No need to hurry
You may open it whenever you have prepared yourself

p.20
Ange:
In there
lies the terminal stop of my 12 year long journey full of hardship and pain.
I lived on to get this into my hands
and now that I have it I can finally go to the land of death where everybody is waiting for me.
At this point I have no more regrets.
There is no need to hesitate anymore.

p.21
Ange:
So why now of all times

p.22
Ange:
Haven't I decided a long time ago?
Decided that nobody will ever come back alive?
Decided that no matter how bloody and cruel a truth may wait for me
I will accept it?
Weren't these 12 years enough
that I want these useless days of tears and dirt to continue?

p.23
Ange:
Even now that I stand before my executioner, I don't seem to have the power to throw away that sweet hope for that miracle.
I could just puke.

p.24
Bern:
Now that you have made your choice with that key
a part of it's magic is lost

Ange:
....what magic?

Bern:
Didn't Battler tell you? That "you are unable to hand this key over to anybody else"?

p.25
Bern:
The magic of "giving you a choice" has now outlived it's role and vanished.
Now this is but a simple key
with no use but to open and lock this diary.

Ange:
...I see
So it is useless now, right?

Bern:
Can I have it then?
I will lock it once more after you have read it.
I want to have a proper ceremony when opening the lock at the party.
You will die now anyway.
So it's okay, right?!

Ange:
Do with it whatever you want...
I don't care about anything that happens after I have gained the truth.

Bern:
Then, off you go

p.26
Bern:
Before the courage to know the truth might accidentally leave you, right?!

p.27
Ange:
.......
.......one deep breath
...................
...................no
I have already gathered my resolve long ago.
I would only look foolish if I let my heart grow any more hesitant about this, so...

p.28
.............
.............
farewell, everyone....
I will come to you soon anyway
......
......so tell me

p.29-30
Ange:
What happened
on that day
on Rokkenjima...?

Eva's Diary:
I write this down in order to forget.
No. I might write this down because I actually don't want to forget.
Aah, the reason doesn't matter in the end.
If I don't spit out everything about that day
I might just go insane.

p.33-34
Ange:
..........
.........I
have heard this....
.....somewhere before....

????:
I told you countless times that there was no Gamemaster

p.35-36
Bern:
THIS IS ALL TRUTH

p.38
Ange:
This is supposed to be the truth of Rokkenjima?
I won't accept it...

Book:
You say you won't accept it? This is the truth we're talking about!!
XXXXX is the culprit!!

Ange:
But Bernkastel already denied it!
This just has to be some random ramblings, right?!
I won't accept it!
I won't accept it!!
This is just something to make me confused and ridicule me!

p.39
Book:
XXXXX and XXXXXXX killed XXXX!
They also killed XXXXX, XXXXXXXX, XXXXXX and XXXXXXX!!!

Ange:
I won't accept it
I won't accept it
I won't accept a truth like that...
I was ready!
Ready for whatever gruesome way of killing my parents that diary was to describe...
I planned to accept that

p.40
Ange:
I won't accept it......!!

Book:
NO MATTER IF YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT, THE TRUTH WILL NOT CHANGE!!!
BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONE TRUTH THAT WAS ALREADY PROVEN BY THE RED TRUUUUUUUUUUUUUTH!!!

p.41-42
Ange:
I WON'T ALLOW THIS!
I WILL NEVER GO ALONG WITH THIS...!!

p.43
Ange:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The Red Truth is certain?!
That is your kind of certain, right?!
It's not my understanding of certain!!
I won't let my truth be stained by something like this!!

Bern:
Calm down, Ange.
You were the one who wanted to know, right?!

Ange:
MY TRUTH IS THAT AUNT EVA IS THE CULPRIT!!
AUNT EVA KILLED THEM ALL!! IT'S ALL HER FAULT!!

p.44
Ange:
PAPA AND MAMA AND MY BIG BROTHER, THEY ARE ALL JUST VICTIMS...!!
NONE OF THEM IS TO BLAME, RIGHT
RIGHT?!?

Eva & Eva-Beato:
Your auntie will always be at your side, Ange.

Ange:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAH, NOW I UNDERSTAND THOSE WORDS!!
YES, AUNT EVA, YOU ARE THE CULPRIT!! IT HAS TO BE THAT WAY!!

p.45
Ange:
IT'S ME WHO'S RIGHT!
THE WORLD IS WEIRD FOR NOT ACCEPTING THAT!
IT'S BROKEN!!
I REFUSE THE RED TRUTH
I REFUSE THE WHOLE WORLD!!!

Bern:
Really...
Then show me a Red Truth that only you can write.
But how could a human ever write the Red Truth?

Ange:
I CAN!
I WILL SHOW YOU A RED INK THAT ONLY HUMANS CAN WRITE WITH!!

p.46
Ange:
I AM RIGHT!!
THE WORLD IS WRONG!!
I WILL WRITE IT DOWN FOR YOU
MY OWN RED TRUTH!!
DON'T EVER THINK THAT I WOULD ACCEPT TO THE TRUTH OF YOUR WOOOOOOOOOOORLD!!!

p.49
Bern:
Do you really have the resolve to know the truth...?
You didn't have it in the end after all,
that resolve.
What a bunch of fools.
Do they think that somebody could go unharmed after falling from such a height?
A safety net?
Do you think that something as thin as a safety net could actually safe a human being...?

p.50
Bern:
As the Witch of Miracles I, Bernkastel, assure you
that a miracle like that will certainly not occur.
Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998
As a result of Eva's death, Ushiromiya Ange takes off on a journey to learn the truth in '98
and the definitely dies in '98 as well.
Battler tried with so much effort to keep you from arriving at this unhappy future.
It was all just a useless struggle.

p.51
Bern:
Goodbye, Ange
Have a nice day

p.54
Eva-Beato:
This too...is part of your choice...Ange
I tried to keep you alive...
but you never actually tried living past the time when you were 6 years old.
So this is just you taking 12 long years to return to your starting point in the end.
You were able to die.
But that does not immediately mean that you will be welcomed into heaven with all the others.
Remember? You ended up here by rejecting all of them being in heaven.

p.55
Eva-Beato:
See you in hell.
...no, this was probably already it.
Farewell, Ange.

Bern:
Oh my, EVA
Just the one I was looking for

Eva-Beato:
You have orders for me, my master?

p.56
Bern:
Would you be so kind and help my kitties clean up the meat-scraps around here?
I will quickly give this back.

Eva-Beato:
What should we do with her remains?

Bern:
Just throw them all into the ocean of nothingness.
In order to expose a way to disembowel Beato she was put into a loop countless times and made a piece again and again,
but now she has completely outlived her usefulness.

Eva-Beato:
I see, my master.

p.57
Bern:
Even if you loose your name, your goal, all the memories in your soul,
keep searching for that answer you desire and suffer to your hearts content.
Get cast away to the deepest depth of oblivion, until you vanish buried under dust
for all eternity!

This is an end that is too sad...

wow this confusing hahah so basically, its like they were a myth/story first but they started existing?(the furniture,gapp, etc) but as for bern and lamba and featherine they always existed and treated it like a big game?!

this is so confusing! its okay if you spoil it to me haha i looked at wiki about the ending and such expecially after looking at the manga about ange diving to her death after learning the truth because i was like wtf that cant just end it off like that...

another question...i kinda looked that ps3 ending dialogues and it was like battler meet everyone at the end...was this kinda like saying battler passed away?! i dunno kinda confused :S

AuraTwilight

2014-06-06, 20:07

Basically, the Meta-World seems to be a plane of existence where imaginary things are true. Who can speak on where Bern and Lambda came from, but they've been around a lot longer. Beatrice and her furniture are imaginary concepts created on Rokkenjima, but at the same time they exist in the Meta-World, and might have always been there. At the same time, the written stories and gameboards of Rokkenjima exist as alternate universes there.

The Meta-World basically seems to be a place where everything is real and nothing is fiction.

Becca-chan

2014-06-07, 14:21

Counting letters isn't very helpful considering the original text is in Japanese, which would have a different character count for everyone's names. :P

Ack! sorry, e-heh though maybe that's just as well. :heh:
I was pretty freaked out when I was trying to come up with those variations.

Maria as the culprit...as if she couldn't be creepy already.

haguruma

2014-06-09, 06:30

Ack! sorry, e-heh though maybe that's just as well. :heh:
I was pretty freaked out when I was trying to come up with those variations.

Maria as the culprit...as if she couldn't be creepy already.
Well, I was trying to keep it as close as possible to what we see in this rendition of the BotOT.
In the Japanese version it is　＊＊が犯人ッ!! ＊＊がッ＊＊＊がッ＊＊を殺したッ！＊＊を＊＊を＊＊を＊＊＊をッ!!!, which means the culprit has two Kanji (戦人、霧江、絵羽、秀吉、譲治、蔵臼、夏妃、楼座、紗音、観音、金蔵、源次、南條、熊沢、郷田 ), and one person with two Kanji and one person with three (留弗夫、朱志香、真里亞) Kanji killed a person with two, another three with two and one with three Kanji.

On another note, I got the February issue of Joker and the Interlude chapter in my mail yesterday. The chapter isn't that long and there's not that much new content that I'd rank it as interesting as CotGW or the last few main chapters, but it still delivers a good idea what life was like for the Hachijôs and an approximate indication of time scales.

Within the pitch-black darkness...

p.1
???:
I can hear it all the time
what is this sound

p.2-3
???:
..…
..…the sound of rain......?
...How long
...…
have I been here for...

p.5
Narrator:
...…
......

Ikuko:
...is this your garden?
If this is your garden, I should be the one apologizing.
I see, one wants to take an afternoon nap and dress up in such a wonderful garden on a day with such nice weather.
But if my memory doesn't fault me

p.6
Ikuko:
this is a national public road.
Do you want to be turned into minced meat that badly?
Or have you already been minced?
Whatever it is, I wish you would tell me.

???:
..…
..…uh
uuh...

p.7
Ikuko:
I see...
So you're not minced meat yet

p.8
Umineko no naku koro ni Episode 8: Twilight of the Golden Witch
Interlude – Hachijô Ikuko

Doctor:
He is almost completely wasted away.

p.9
Doctor:
Beyond that, the probability of memory impairment are quite high.
I can't know any further without a CT scan, but it is possible that the brain has been damaged.
But it merely seems to be damaged and overall he seems fine.
If he had kept lying there it wouldn't have ended this well for him though.
So,
at any rate, I advise that you should have him looked at in a bigger hospital.

Ikuko:
Thank you, Doctor.
...I would like you to keep this case secret.
This isn't much, but please accept it as a travel compensation for your house call.

Doctor:
I won't reveal this to anyone...
But I simply cannot accept this money

p.10
Ikuko:
Oh my, you've woken up.
How are you feeling now?
I am Hachijô Ikuko.
You can just call me Ikuko or stay formal and say Miss Hachijô, I don't mind either way.

Narrator:
Hachijô...
Ikuko...

Ikuko:
Around these parts the Hachijô family is quite well known as big landowners.
But compared to the good records of my big brothers I am a little weird and have had a few slippages.

p.11
Ikuko:
I have done quite a lot of wrong things, so I've long lost my parents grace. They've given up on me.
They basically keep me confined to this place now.
My hobby is reading and writing mystery and detective novels.
My age is a secret and I am single.
My heart is that of a young girl, but I am already approaching an age where it's just kind of ridiculous to say that.
Hihihihi

Narrator:
..….

Ikuko:
Well then
What is your name?

p.12
Narrator:
......My
Name.......
.........
.....?
My name is.......?
Name is......

???:
...ngh
.....gngh

p.13
Narrator:
My
name is...?
I can't remember.
I can't remember...?
Even though I understand logically that I have a name, I can't recall any more than that I am human
My head and my heart, it's torn up as if it's ground meat
I can't remember anything.........

p.13
???:
Who...
am I.........??

Narrator:
I don't understand...
But I had some kind of mission...or a goal I think

Ikuko:
So, do you remember anything else besides your name?

Narrator:
The back of my brain feels numb
Who am I?
Where was I born?
When was I born?
I don't care, I just want to remember anything...
...a...ge...

p.14
Ikuko:
Age?
My age is a secret!

???:
18
years...?

Ikuko:
I look like 18?

???:
.......I am....
...18...years old...

Ikuko:
Oh, you meant your own age
And I already thought you started flattering me

p.15-16
Calendar:
October

Narrtor:
To be quite honest
I only had a vague feeling about actually being 18
It felt as if my spirit had stayed young forever and just my silly body had continued aging
Just...when I asked myself about my age, the number ''18'' floated to the surface...

Ikuko:
I see, so you are 18
And you don't remember anything other than that...
then how about, until you remember your own name,
we give you a name that is written as 18 in Japanese, with the reading Tôya?!
Hachijô Tôya...
how about it?
Yeah, I think that's quite manly
I've chosen well, yes yes!

Tôya:
Hachijô...
Tôya...

p.17
Narrator:
And from then onwards
I became known as Hachijô Tôya
I was being told that my body couldn't move properly because of a traffic incident I had been in
I was hit by a car right there on that day
and then apparently picked up by Ikuko who found me collapsed.
The unkind thought that it must have been her and no other who had hit me on that day came to sometimes
but I drew it back once I saw that there was not even a scratch on the bumper of her car.

p.18
Narrator:
I continued my rehabilitation slowly, while I was being taken care of at her house.
Step by step I regained control over my body.
Yet...

Ikuko:
Tôya?

Narrator:
The impairment of my brain wouldn't get better.

p.19
Ikuko:
I was really surprised.
You became totally entranced and then read through it in one go...as if you just flew over the sentences...
It seems like your quite crafted at speed-reading.
...so how was it? Honest impression.

Tôya:
It was really good!
You should just maybe insert an explanation of the ocean currents, or else it's unfair as a detective novel.
But it was so good that there was foreshadowing about the ring from the very beginning.
I unconsciously started growling when I read over that part again...!
But that feeling is the epitome of detective fiction, I think!

p.20
Tôya:
...uhm
I think I said something rude...
...I'm sorry

Ikuko:
No!
Why are you apologizing?
I am just surprised!
Such accurate impressions are absolutely worthy of praise!
Are you a literary critic by any chance?
You seem to even have some talent as a mystery author yourself!

Narrator:
.......
......

p.21
Narrator:
...detective novels
author...
critique...
a mystery
battle
I have this feeling that I exchanged arguments about this topic before
...............

Tôya:
Thank you
It's better already

Ikuko:
Tôya!
If you want you can have surgery any time.

Narrator:
Brain surgery
If I undergo that surgery, even if there is no guarantee that it will restore my memory, it would at least lessen the frequency of the headaches, the doctor said.

Tôya:
.......
....no
I have already gotten used...to this headache being a part of me

Narrator:
Actually

p.22
Narrator:
I was afraid that the true me, sleeping somewhere in my brain, might get hurt during surgery.
I am now a new person called Hachijô Tôya,
and I have to get used to this new life.
Gradually my interest shifted towards Ikuko.
She was a peculiar woman.
She was way too rebellious
She lived in this mansion that she got from her parents in turns of being disinherited
while making her servants do everything for her and living a life in luxury.

p.23
Narrator:
She seems to have never been that sociable, there's not even friends coming to visit her.
The only company to talk with she has is me and her old cat Bern.
She seems to be at an age where she would be just about still marriagable*, but practically being retired in a place like this, it's no wonder she doesn't meet anybody.
I suppose she must have already given up on marriage.
Her daily life is quite monotonous.
Ordering or searching for mystery novels, or writing something herself
it was either one of those.
At first I thought she was a professional mystery writer, but her drafts always ended up being clipped together and thrown on a pile of other drafts.
I didn't ever notice her letting somebody beside me read them.

p.24
Narrator:
Being an author is a profession where you make other people read what you have written
So somebody like her, who doesn't let anybody read what she writes, can impossibly called an author.

Tôya:
Ikuko, why do you never show these drafts to anybody?

Ikuko:
I'm showing them to you.
Of course only the ones I'm satisfied with.

Tôya:
It's kind of sad. I bet it would be great if you applied to a publisher somehwere.

Ikuko:
My works are not pro-material
I send one in once, but it wasn't any good.
It's nothing more than amateur entertainment.

Tôya:
Somebody with knowledge of any kind of mystery novels and trends
doesn't really have the right to call herself an amateur.

Ikuko:
A gormaunt doesn't automatically make a good cook.
This is no different.

p.25
Tôya:
...Is it really fun to write novels that nobody will ever see?

Ikuko:
...It was fun once

Tôya:
And now?

Ikuko:
Now it is fun to hear your impression.
I have finished the first chapter for the time being.
I will have some tea ordered, so please let me hear your oppinion on it.

p.26
Narrator:
No matter if it's reading or writing mystery novels
it just has to be boring if it is just on your own.
Sharing your world with somebody
anything special will surely just grow larger.

Tôya:
.......?

Ikuko:
Tôya?

Tôya:
...I'm alright. More importantly
I am looking forward to reading the new chapter.

p.27-28
We spent our days together with discourses on mystery novels, as well as talking about new plots and ideas.
Before I knew it I was lured in by her and stepped into the world of drawing up my own mystery novels.
It seemed like my former self had possessed quite a talent for mystery novels.
Using intimate knowledge of famous mysteries and turning them on their heads by keeping to think about new ideas to insert.
She helped me cultivate that writing skill she had picked up upon.
During this days of creating mystery novels as a team to amuse just the two of us, nothing really changed for the better – yet we were content.
This was my new life as Hachijô Tôya –

Tôya:
You really do live a long time, do you?!

p.29
Tôya:
Could it be that you are actually a ghost cat?

Ikuko:
Tôya, the manuscript is finished!!
So what do we do now?
I used your plot, but I made the tragic love story of Tsujiko even more sad at the end.

Manuscript:
...by doing this, the curtain is lowered on my mysterious tale of Kokushuto. <J>

Tôya:
I think that's great...!
With the last farewell being really sad, it didn't just work out as a detective novel but as a general piece of fiction too.

p.30
Ikuko:
It was only because I had your great plot as a basis
Compared to this work, all my previous attempts are nothing more than scrap-paper.
I felt so enthralled while writing, being the first in the world to actually read it...it's the first time I ever felt this way!

Tôya:
I only put some ideas out there.
No story is finished with just ideas.
You were the one who made it possible for them to bloom into a proper story like this.
This is a masterpiece that you don't need to hide from anybody...!

Ikuko:
You are right...!
This is the greatest piece of fiction I have ever created...!
So let's celebrate!

p.31
Tôya:
Ikuko, I have a proposition to make. May I?

Ikuko:
Let's hear it!
When it comes to your ideas, I will always lend you an ear...unless I'm in the shower or on the toilet...!

Tôya:
Why don't we try and hand in our joint piece of work?
I have never read any piece of fiction better than this.
I bet a lot of people will come up dying to read this.

Ikuko:
But...I also thought so back then...and then in the end...

p.32
Tôya:
I firmly believe in your talent, Ikuko!
How about you?

Ikuko:
I also firmly believe in your talent...!

Tôya:
Then it's decided!
To your major debut, Ikuko...!

Ikuko:
To your major debut, Tôya...!

p.34
Ikuko:
Of course, I totally forgot, Tôya!!
I also thought about opening this here once we finish the manuscript!

Tôya:
Ikuko, I can't...
I can't drink any more...
I'm tired...

Ikuko:
Hahaha
It's alright, Tôya. This is something which might be way better than alcohol!

Tôya:
Yeah...doesn't look like alcohol...
but...I can't...
so...tired...

p.35
Narrator:
.......rain

p.36
Tôya:
............
Ikuko, please turn the lights on.
It's not good for your eyes to sit at the computer in the dark.

Ikuko:
...Oh
Did I wake you up?

Tôya:
No, the sound of rain...
And the wind seems so strong
The raingutter will clutter with leaves again...

Narrator:
...rain.......
Just like on that day when I was picked up by Ikuko...
........

p.37
Tôya:
You are quite enthusiastic about the computer lately.
Was there some interesting article on the Internet?

Ikuko:
While I think it's complete hogwash, it is quite fascinating.
Tôya....
what do you think are the motives for people to kill one another?

Tôya:
Is that material for a new novel?
Social standing, honor, revenge, money...things like that right?

Ikuko:
In the world of mysteries, yes.
But in reality overwhelming numbers are unplanned, sudden murders resulting out of a trivial quarrel or some strange tension just in that moment...

p.38
Ikuko:
From a psychological perspective
men do it for social standing, or fame, or even to make a lover forever theirs,
women do it to escape from somebody who keeps them bound
and most undiscriminate killers do it out of a suicide wish,
they recreate themselves in a way that they are worthy of death and commit murder to give themselves determination to end it.

Tôya:
.......
Are you thinking about creating a story where motive is the main theme next?

Ikuko:
Hihihi
It is really fascinating

p.39
Ikuko:
That Rokkenjima Incident we had been talking about!

p.40:
Tôya:
...Rokken
...jima...?

Ikuko:
A few days ago we talked about the Rokkenjima mystery, right?!
That incident where culprit, motive, even the circumstances of the day of the crime remain a mystery.
And that is booming right now on the net!
The theories and thoughts about it
and among them those forgeries, they are really fascinating!
Forgeries are written on the hypothesis that there exist more than that one message bottle signed by Ushiromiya Maria that drifted ashore on that neighbouring island...
Here, look at this!
A few days ago,
I picked this up at the ocean near the road where I picked you up and I thought we would read it together.
But more than a forgery it's content was like the message bottle from „And Then There Were None“!

p.41
Ikuko:
But it's content was really interesting...!
Maybe by some chance an author of really elaborate forgeries lives just close by!
Or this might even be the real deal, a message bottle by the culprit!

p.42
Internet-site:
[Rokkenjima Explosion Accident]
Occured on October 5th 1986 at 24o'clock on Rokkenjima within the Izu archipelago.
It is rumored that, seeking after the great fortune and hidden gold of family head Ushiromiya Kinzô, a fight where blood was avenged by blood broke out among the family members, but the truth is still within a catbox.
Going by the scale of the explosion, it is hard to think of it as a mere accident,
and the likelihood of a planned mass murder is high.

Narrator:
Who

Internet-site:
...survivor Ushiromiya Eva keeps her silence.
...following her death, since she escaped harm by being absent on said date...
...miya Ange will inherit her whole fortune.
...took over raising Ange immediately after the incident,
...makes one consider it being part of a performance.
...shiromiya Ange

Narrator:
Who are these voices calling out my name?
I don't know them!

Ikuko:
...Tôya?

Narrator:
That is
not my name!

Tôya:
..........
......ah

p.45
Narrator:
Help me...
Iku...ko......

Ikuko:
Tôya...!!

p.46
Ikuko:
TÔYA...!!

Paperstack from Message Bottle:
Confession of the golden witch

From next time onward the confession of the Golden Witch shall be told–!!

From what it sounds and looks like, I'd say that Tôya lived with Ikuko quite a while before the topic of Rokkenjima even came up. The way the chapter depicts Ikuko also makes it fairly unlikely that she is Sayo...or Sayo has an actual problem with multiple personalities (or is the biggest dick in the world to everybody including herself). I mean, why would she spent YEARS with the person she loves, make him a completely new person, only to spring the incident on him almost a decade later.
I'd say the events sorrounding the uncorking of CotGW don't happen until around 1993-95 for several factors. The chapter depicts a long line of scene-to-scene panels, depicting Ikuko and Tôya growing close over an extended period of time, the internet-article clearly mentions the inheritance towards Ange and Eva's death (which apparently only became a central thing when Ange was already in her teens), also internet itself only became a thing in the early 90s and wasn't commonly available until the mid 90s in Japan.

I also find it interesting how Tôya faints before he can apparently read CotGW and that only Ikuko has read it at that point.