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Conversation Between Esper 28 and Var
Showing Visitor Messages 1 to 10 of 15
  1. Esper 28
    2008-07-23 13:39
    Esper 28
    Did you really? I'll have to go look and keep tabs on that thread, just out of curiosity of people's response. I wonder if people will protest, "But Gino belongs with Kallen!" Thanks for letting me know.
  2. Var
    2008-07-23 13:32
    I'm glad we agree on so many things, I paraphrased our conversation concerning Gino and Anya in the Romance thread. I'm just putting this up as a note that I've read what you've written and I'll do my best to reply once I get home from work. :/ No time to really construct a reply worthy of this discussion.
  3. Esper 28
    2008-07-23 11:14
    Esper 28
    Ohh, I thought you did it again. Mah bad.

    I agree that Nina's nuke could be the cause for much trepidation within the show. It could very easily be, like you said, the thing that triggers Anya to switch sides. Also, I think I would like for there to be a connection between Marianne and Anya, even if its a insignificant one.

    I can't say much about your assessment of Anya and Gino because I agree with what you're saying. I just hope the two of them get some time in the upcoming episodes for just them so their relationship could be fleshed out, especially before Anya goes AWOL.

    Again, on your assessment of Tristan, there's not much for me to say. I firmly believe the two characters are entwined and whatever happens with one, will have a heavy impact on the other. And honestly, I look forward to seeing Gino fly off the handle. I want to see him get serious and really show everyone how strong he is.

    The system is changing Suzaku and he's definitely about to realize it. I just wonder what he's going to do to stop the change from happening. I can't see him rebelling or being too vocal. Perhaps he'll turn to Nunnally for guidance.

    It's nice to hear that the ending isn't completely meaningless. I like your theories concerning the red and what-not, but I do think you might be over analyzing. But in truth, there's nothing wrong with over analyzing. Besides, everything you've said sounds completely plausible so even if the ED isn't purposely suggesting what you're saying, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened anyway.

    I think the connection between the feather and the laws that Nunnally may start putting into place is a decent analysis. Though I wonder if it may be stretching to make it fit.

    Bismarck's KMF looks awesome as hell. I just saw the lineart for it and I like, fell in love with it. I can't wait to see it in action. Bismarck is going to be absolutely awesome. I even got myself so excited for Bismarck's KMF that I changed my avatar from Cornelia. Considering it doesn't sound like she's going to be doing anything especially awesome anytime soon.

    I don't entirely disagree with you about C.C., but I do think that the memory reset certainly extended her importance within the show. And I never thought for a second that Cornelia had a place within episode 15, it was just a bummer not to see her, or any of the other characters for that matter. I just don't think Cornelia is going to become a major player, though she'll still have an impact on events to come. She just won't have the heavy hand that I would've preferred to see.

    First, I want to clear up a misconception you have over my views of Jeremiah. I do not think Jeremiah is a simple machine. Far from the case. I view him as one of the many science-fiction themes that are present within CG. He is the android, the cyborg, the perfect mending between man and machine. He is the ultimate representation of technology aiding human beings. CG has KMFs that aid humanity to become better and stronger and Jeremiah is the next step in that evolution. He isn't a simple machine, that is what a KMF is. He's beyond that and that's why he can ask why. It's kind of the whole point. Yeah, he's a machine, but he has feelings, he can cry, and he can question his actions as well as the people around him. It's a very common sci-fi theme and I for one, am glad CG dared to touch upon the subject.

    That being said, he's still just a machine. I mean that both literally and figuratively. You saw Jeremiah asking Lelouch why and you saw a free-thinking independently acting entity while I saw a machine who was checking to see if following Lelouch would fit his parameters. Obviously, when I call him a machine, I don't mean his mechanical parts and the same goes when I say parameters--I mean his way of thinking as a human being. I'm saying that Jeremiah asked Lelouch why because he wanted to make sure following him wouldn't go against his loyalties. I'm really surprised that you don't agree with me that Jeremiah is the epitome of camitatus. He was loyal to Marianne and Britannia, but he failed Marianne so he chose to devote his loyalty to Britannia. Now Lelouch is his chance to once again be loyal to Marianne and Britannia. His loyalty has never changed throughout his entire existence as a character. I'm sure that if early on in the first season, Lelouch exposed himself as being Marianne's son, Jeremiah would've happily followed him.

    You mentioned in the C.C. thread that Jeremiah has his own goals and made a comment about him wanting to become the Knight of One. I was hoping you could explain what you meant by that, because I think Jeremiah's actions of joining Lelouch kind of go directly against what you're saying.
  4. Var
    2008-07-22 10:17
    Ehh, I've only done it once, I'm not that silly. Life always takes precedence because life makes everything possible.

    I think the wide spread destruction is actually what is going to cause Anya to switch sides. As it stands, I can't see anything really making her defect other than a total betrayal or some royal mess up by the Empire. Queue Nina's nuke. Marianne and Anya are quite similar, even the same hair style, but they have no other similar traits. It feels like Anya has emulated Marianne but isn't related or some such.

    Gino and Anya are two parts of a whole. They were seemingly friends before Suzaku showed up, so their bond likely has a long history and isn't centered on Suzaku. It seems like they took him into their circle, and not the other way around. Gino's worry for Anya in Ep.11 really makes me think that they (or at least he) considers her as something a bit more precious than just a friend. Anya is a bit of a mystery as to her emotions but since she follows Gino, or maybe he follows her, I think she's warmed up to his personality. There are 'four different' Anya's that I've observed through the show: Bloodthirsty, Cold, Scared, and Pseudo-open/amiable. The first two appear on the battlefield or in normal conversation, the latter only once with C.C., and the fourth has only ever appeared around Gino and Suzaku. Due to their respective appearances, I think it is due to her time with Gino that's she's developed that last bit of personality. As for Gino, when he's with Anya he's a bit more level headed, and the moment you remove him from her, he turns into a loose cannon that flirts with everything with legs, breasts, and alive.

    The name Tristan may just tie to the mech's original appearance, a noble one that seems very refined. It could also be a knock to his nature, which I think it is to a degree. But, due to the Tristan's eventual change of face (literally, its face is different in the OP), I'm not quite sure how far the name goes into the pilot's character and not just the fate of the mech itself, like with Gawain. It may even represent what we see later in the OP, the loss of his happy/cheerful side for his seemingly remorseless side. The only way, though, that I can see that happening is if Anya dies. Not sure what else could really send him off the deep end. The Iseult idea simply doesn't have time to be developed for any other character other than Anya at this point. Which... now that I look at it, could fit. Since she's now seeking the truth, Gino could help her find out the reality of who she is.

    Nunally seems to have understood that something was amiss with Suzaku, that is why she tried to test him if he was lying and he failed. At which point she compared him to her brother. I think she's completely sure of the fact that he's doing things behind her back, which is why she took a step forward this episode (15) and threw around her weight. I think, what we have now, is the development that Suzaku will begin to protect Nunally, again, with the right intentions in mind. But first, he's got to open his eyes to the reality and realize that the system is changing him far more than he is changing the system.

    They, with the new information from Koshimizu, don't mean entirely nothing, to some degree. They are not omens of what's to come but they hold some meaning in that they were something-like commissioned to be draw with some sort of 'plan' in mind. The reason I think red is associated with Kallen is because of how her role is panning out. In the second ED, the red is tying things together, or holding them back. For instance, the one ED picture that is only Lelouch, has something akin to a leash on him that is red with blue gems at either end. It could simply be me looking to deep into a picture, but the color and position seems a bit too coincidental. A leash, something Lelouch needs to keep him from falling down the pit to his father, red and blue are Kallen's 'colors'. The tattered red that lines Lelouch's 'throne' could be representing Kallen's attempt to try and bridge the gap between Lelouch and Suzaku, but due to its broken state, it likely means she fails to some degree.

    As for Nunally, I'm not sure where the feather comes in. As your hunch is to a degree correct since she began to throw around her weight and take command of her government.

    I want to see Bismark put everyone in their place, everyone.

    Well, Cornelia is still a secondary character, so its not surprising that she wasn't in an episode that more or less finished (yes, I know you disagree) the C.C. story barring her regaining her memories and powers. I think what you're thinking of is her being captured by Lelouch and escaping to Schneizel, all of which I can see happening. She can still be a third player, but people can take sides even if they are not on the same team. She seems to understand the whole picture, but I don't expect her to side with the person who killed Euphemia, even if it wasn't on purpose. We know she's hardheaded. And if she stays with Lelouch, how will she get to meet her precious Guilford?

    Ahh good old Jeremiah, since we can move the discussion to these... board-things, I was planning on just forwarding everything from the C.C. thread to here concerning him. As it really doesn't belong there. My overall point about Jeremiah, though, was that I don't think he fits into the grove you've placed him, both by the Arthurian metaphor and the ghost one. He's still a free spirit and he makes his own decisions, even if they seem to be guided by loyalty. The reason I do not think he is a single-minded duty bound 'machine' is because he questions why people do what they do, he makes his own decisions, and he can forgive people. If he was just a duty bound machine, he'd never have asked Lelouch why he betrayed his empire. He'd have simply killed him or followed him because he was Marianne's son. He asked, and made a decision based on what he heard. Jeremiah, like Lelouch, likely wants the truth as to why Marianne died. He also, more likely than not, follows Lelouch now out of a sense of guilt to some degree. Guilt for being unable to protect Marianne. And, finally, he cried. Machines don't cry. I think that showed us that he was still alive even though he'd lost his original humanity.
  5. Esper 28
    2008-07-21 23:49
    Esper 28
    You did it again?! Aye, aye, aye. But no worries for the delay. I understand that life takes precedence. In truth, I haven't even been able to browse the boards for a few days, but once the new episode aired, I felt compelled to really make the time.

    Once Anya switches sides, I think the Mordred will cause destruction beyond measure. It's really going to be something vicious. I saw a picture on the boards of Marianne and Anya together and I was always skeptical, but they really are similar. It just cemented things further for me.

    And I think you're right about Gino and Anya. They really do seem like they balance one another out. If I remember right, we were tossing around the idea that they could possibly be a couple. I think the fact that they round each other out so well is a good indicator that we're right.

    I've started to think that the Tristan & Iseult story has no bearing on anything. The only thing I can really think is that Gino will chase after Anya when she changes sides. I'm also wondering if maybe his knightmare was called Tristan to show his seemingly flirtatious nature. Almost as a joke on his personality. I think it's safe to say you've made the right call to regulate knightmare names to strictly the mechs themselves without allowing for too much spillage over onto characters. I kind of feel like the most recent episodes have kind of tossed the Arthurian legends out the window for the most part. We are still waiting for Anya, though.

    Nunnally and Suzaku are an interesting relationship. They definitely need to reconcile, but under what terms. I also wonder if the refrain incident with Kallen will be a factor. There's a chance Nunnally will never even find out.

    I was under the impression that the ending scenes meant practically nothing? Though I do like how you've strung together the color red. Though I wonder if the color red, while pertaining to Kallen, may also have other implications? Perhaps they're also symbolizing the more typical things associated with red: hatred, war, love, etc., etc.

    Nunnally's cage is interesting. You know, you'll probably laugh at me, but when I first thought of the feather, my mind immediately went to the realm of laws. With Nunnally as governor, I couldn't help but think of a plume that would stereotypically go with the powder-wig wearing British judges. Perhaps the cage suggests that Nunnally will use her power as governor to create laws that will "free" the people of Japan? Like I said, it's just what came to mind, but I don't think it's that far-fetched. However, I kind of want to say that there wasn't that much thought put into the creation of the images, right?

    Speaking of Bismarck, I really like his knightmare. I can't wait to see it in action, but I fear for its sword/third wheel thing. I'm really hoping it's a sword in a scabbard. If it is, it has the potential to be awesome. I've got total respect for Bismarck and I look forward to him laying the smack down on like, everyone.

    Episode 14 crushed a lot of my opinions and views on things. And episode 15 didn't help much, either.

    Cornelia is definitely acting in the name of Euphie, but I wonder what'll happen once she's able to clear her sister's name or if that will be her life long struggle? I was disappointed at the complete and utter lack of Cornelia in episode 15, but hopefully in the episodes to come, we'll see more. I could've sworn I read that she'll be captured by Charles, I think, but then she'll escape and join Lelouch. So much for a "third player", huh? Frankly, I'm disappointed that her objective is so narrow-minded. I always took her as the type of character that was able to set her sights on one goal, but at the same time, understand the whole picture.

    Lastly, I kind of wanted to bring up Jeremiah. We went back and forth in the C.C. thread and it seems we really view the character differently. I really respect your opinions and I know that you've devoted more time to analyzing the show than I have, so I would really like to hear why you see Jeremiah in the way that you do. I'm just curious because after talking to you, I'm thinking that it's possible that I missed something concerning the character. Judging by what you've said, I just feel like I'm overlooking something. So, I mean, if you wouldn't mind indulging me, I would like to hear your opinion.
  6. Var
    2008-07-18 21:22
    Yes, I did send it to myself. Sorry for the delay, but this is the first real break from work I've had to think through everything and give you an adequate reply.

    The cannons on the Mordred are Hadron cannons. I do believe there will be destruction when she switches sides, I don't see how else it could possibly work out. Mayhaps she will be the one to wreck the Tristan. Might explain Gino's sudden switch in disposition. Speaking of them, do you not agree that they complete each other in essence and in character? The one aloof, carefree and open, while the other is shut off, quiet, and systematic. I somehow doubt that, without Gino, Anya would not have been in as many places with so many people as she's been, and Gino would have likely been far to detached from reality of being a noble.

    Iseult doesn't really fit for anyone but maybe Nunally. Maybe. But she is more Guinevere if we want to stretch parallels. I think that some just do not occur in the story or that some characters simply have no relation to the parallels. It seems to me that the parallels befall the mechs themselves and what their fates will be more so then the pilots.

    I'd say Gino and Anya complete each other, but I said that above. O-o

    I agree that Suzaku and Nunally will have to make amends, and I believe it will be soon. I'm just curious under what pretense all this will occur.

    Kallen can't work for Nunally officially, the only possible way she could likely work for Nunally is if she is her messenger to Lelouch. The bird carrying the message, so to speak. The ED is a little weird, I'll admit, but now with recent news that the pictures were to a degree comissioned, I may try to piece together some semblance of meaning. I think one thing to note, is that no character wears red. It is present in different places but never worn by any single person. Kaguya has a red ribbon in her hand, Ougi's bandana, Nunally is drapped in a red cloak, Lelouch has a red 'thing' around his neck, and at the very end, he is drapped/sitting on red (while Suzaku is not). All these characters have a connection to Kallen. Another thing to note, is that the cage has a feather in it. This is a recurring image, but the only person with feathers is C.C. (as Shirley's image was meant for the original ED). So I am curious what the real symbolism is behind the cage and the feather. Does it mean that C.C. opened the cage? If so what is the cage? Kallen's heart (seeing as she opened that at some point by bringing her back to Lelouch)? Lelouch's despair/heart? Nunally can hold several things in that cage, Lelouch and Kallen are the more likely one in the metaphorical and the other literal.

    The whole Bismark being papa bear was something I started out of sheer boredom... it then was taken too far by others and myself.

    V.V.'s reaction in Ep.14, I think, overides your point of him wanting to manipulate Lelouch. It appears that he was fully intent on having the boy killed.

    The part about Cornelia also seems to have been overturned by the time I replied. :/ She is shown to be doing it for Euphie, and Euphie alone. Her intention seems to be to destroy/reveal the cult. She is a third player, but her goals are in line with Lelouch's.
  7. Esper 28
    2008-07-10 03:55
    Esper 28
    Did you really send it to yourself? That's awesome, dude. I had just figured you were taking your time or whatever. Still, you sending it to yourself made me laugh.

    I thought I had seen something on the boards saying as much concerning Anya and Marianne. But I dunno. I think that's something that just needs more information to really speculate much, y'know. But yeah, we definitely know where Anya fits in the general scheme of things. I just hope that when she defects, it'll be awesome. Like, Mordred blasting the hell out of something. I'm not tech savvy enough on this show to be able to use the name of the cannons the Mordred uses. I really need to pay more attention to the mech/technology thread. I dunno how long you've been a Gundam fan, but I look forward to the day someone makes a Code Geass Project similar to Gundam Project. (If you've no idea what I'm talking about, I'm sorry! )

    And Kallen...poor, poor Kallen. People have her doing it with just about every sentient character in the show. Well, then again, I haven't seen anyone say she'll end up with Arthur yet, but the show isn't over yet! The cat may get some action after all. But I agree, the Iseult story just doesn't apply to her. Not even in the Lelouch/Kallen way, I don't think. I think that whole thing is meant to represent something entirely different.

    Gino and Anya...I could definitely see them being more than just friends at some point. I mean, it's not that far fetched, but it's certainly not something destined to be. Either way, from a personal standpoint, I'd like to see it happen. I think they'd be cute together.

    The story was completely spur of the moment! Seriously, I was replying back to you and I had Wikipedia open and I looked up Gawain's entry and read that. I figured it was interesting enough to throw out there to see what you thought. It doesn't fit and I understand that. It was just there while I was writing, so I tried. However, with Nunnally alienating herself...I think that, yeah, she's going to alienate herself from everyone, but something will happen and her and Suzaku will become close to one another. I just can't see the series ending with Nunnally and Suzaku at odds with one another.

    This might as well be the best time to bring up the opening, which I wanted your opinion on. Nunnally draped in red cape and, more importantly in my mind, Nunnally releasing the origami red bird from her hand that makes a rainbow and what-not. Also, I think the scene with the red cape she's holding a birdcage? It seems to me like Kallen is going to be that little birdy. I know you're a fan of Kallen's...what's your take on it? I know you said you don't see Kallen changing sides or betraying Lelouch, but working directly for that betraying Lelouch? I think it could very easily be a situation where Kallen could work for Nunnally on an almost covert scenario. I can just see in my mind Nunnally asking Kallen to watch over Lelouch for her. But, like I said, I'm more curious to hear what you think.

    Also, in that Kallen thread, what was all that about the Knight of One being Kallen's father? What side did you take on that? I was scared to delve too deeply into the conversation 'cause it didn't make much sense to me.

    I like the idea that C.C. and V.V. are the players. However, I can't help but wonder, perhaps C.C. and V.V. are playing against these "gods" while they're playing their other game. I've got this horrible irking feeling that, at the very least, V.V. is manipulating Lelouch in order to have him take down the gods. Orange is such an important tool in taking down the gods yet they didn't have him on a shorter leash. It makes me believe that V.V. wants Lelouch to have Orange in his control.

    And the reason I chose grey for Cornelia's pieces was because I felt she would still act in the name of Britannia (white), but she her short term goal, the removal of Charles from the throne, would fall in line more with Lelouch (black). Which would produce an odd grey that would work for itself. I really look forward to see what is going to happen with her mainly because she really is just a wild card. I read in the Suzaku thread, I think it was you in fact, who said she was a wild card for Suzaku just as much as she was a wild card for Lelouch. It's so true. I'm completely bias and I think that clouds my judgement, but I really don't want her to join forces with Lelouch, but it seems that the general consensus is that she will. Also gotta wonder what knightmare she'll be piloting.

    Anyhow, I look forward to seeing where all of this is going. I feel as though I don't stay on top of the series like I should. I read the forums, but often, I have no idea what the hell people are talking about. That and I can't keep up with the Spoilers thread! It goes too fast.

    I wish I could use the quote tag, it would make things so much more organized.
  8. Var
    2008-07-08 06:37
    I just realized that I replied on my own board... XD Here was my reply from a few days ago. Oy.

    Well, the spoilers concerning Anya aren't all that big a deal. They just discuss... spoilers ahead... that she looks an aweful lot like a young Marianne. Their two pictures, compared when they are at around the same age, look nigh identical barring... their bust size. Other than that, though, I think we've mostly come to a conclusion on Anya for the time being and with the current information available.

    Some people also thought Kallen would end up with Xing-ke, Suzaku, a Teapot, and so on and so forth. You get my point. She doesn't fit the Iseult story unless she herself is Iseult and Lelouch is Tristan. There you can actually make a similarity. She's being held captive by the 'evil' Britannian's (who lie about Geass, similar to lieing about slaying the dragon), and Lelouch who wields the power of the Geass comes in an rescues her. That fits leagues better than Gino just coming in and saving her, as the later just doesn't really make any sense or hold congruency when one considers Gino's loyalty and unlikeliness to change sides.

    As for Anya and Gino being lovers in the future, it is possible. Within the entirety of the show, the only person Gino has ever shown concern, is Anya. Episode 11, when Shinkurou fires off its weapon we here Gino shout/scream/cry Anya's name, clearly worried about her. The age difference is supposedly two years, 15 and 17. That's not much of a difference and fits the usual bravado of the male being slightly older than the female. (Kallen, Lelouch, Suzaku, et all are 18 going on 19.)

    Guinevere is his daughter. She looks like a snake and, likely, is the embodiement of the bad side of Guinevere. I wouldn't be surprised if she tries to backstab someone somewhere (even her father) for power.

    Nothing against your interpretation of the Lancelot and Guinever story, but I do not think it fits. Several reasons:
    -Gawain is destroyed.
    -Lancelot betraying the KoR is unlikely, his parallel comes more in betraying/killing Gawain.
    -Nunally has been shown to have been alienating herself, even if only lightly, from Suzaku because she knows he's lieing to her.
    -I do not see Charles trying to hurt his daughter.
    -The method for Anya's betrayal puts her at ends with everyone, and I expect her to join Lelouch.
    -Suzaku throwing aside the KoR removes any justification he had for selling Lelouch to the Emperor, and sends his method of changing the Empire from within down the toilet.

    The reason I brought up the idea of Nunally being Guinevere to Lelouch was, simply, because she is his most valuable thing, his Queen, and because she was stolen from him. By Suzaku (and V.V.) of all people.

    Yes, I do not think Cornelia, or any strong female, fall into the very shoganistic Arthurian legends. C.C. is a more possible as she's hardly a normal person, but her parallel also falls into the chess scenario very nicely.

    Cornelia was definately the Queen in S1. I am not fully sure where she actually falls at this point in S2, becauce, simply, we've seen her for all of three minutes. I agree that the pieces are always changing. Case in point: Kallen went from a pawn to a Queen. Schneizel is definately the white King now.

    I actually agree with you that Kallen has been promoted from pawn to Queen. However, I do not agree that C.C. was a Queen. I'll speak on her later. As for Kallen being captured, it's in perfect timing with everything else happening. Lelouch has to now lose pieces to regain his Queen if he hopes to win. Her capture is important to Lelouch, the Order, and the eventual connection between Nunally and Lelouch that I forsee coming about because of Kallen. Though, to be perfectly honest, I do not see Kallen ever changing sides or betraying Lelouch. She's become far to enamored with him and all her dreams are riding on him. She'd likely bite off her tongue before doing anything against him. Which basically goes against every possible 'odd' pairing idea like Suzaku, Gino, or anyone in Britannia. Not to mention that her 'name' is sullied and likely not something a lineage based society like Britannia would/could ever accept.

    Like I said before, Nunally and Kallen coming together (Lelouch's two Queens) is too large of a coincidence, especially considering what's been said and what will happen (read: Shirley) for me to think its just unrelated coincidences. You don't put two people who love the same person in the same room unless you plan on having a very long discussion appearing between them.

    As for C.C., as I promised, she and V.V. are not pieces, in my opinion, they are the players. C.C. set's the black king into motion. Starting the game.

    I agree with your vision for Cornelia and her knights in the future. I wouldn't say gray pieces, however, I'd say they'd be a completely different player who entered the match. Cornelia would have to be the Queen though, as it holds far more power than the King (perhaps a kingqueen hybrid ). And Guilford would be her knight.

    Nah, you got everything.
  9. Esper 28
    2008-07-03 04:09
    Esper 28
    Wow, those are some really great ideas. I'll try to touch upon everything I can and hopefully it ends up being somewhat organized.

    Feel free to spoil me on Anya! I try to follow the Spoilers thread, but the damn thing moves way too fast for me to keep up. It always adds several pages in the like, day I don't browse the forums. But as far as Anya being some sort of reincarnation of Marianne or something...doesn't that seem a little, I dunno, odd? I've had trouble sinking my teeth into that idea. I mean, yeah, it would be interesting, but I just don't see it happening. However, in truth, I have no real argument against that scenario other than I don't feel there's been substantial evidence to support it. That being said, there's no real evidence to support that scenario is wrong, either. I think the only safe thing to say is that Anya will probably turn on Charles at some point or another for whatever reason.

    I agree that Kallen would be a poor Iseult for Gino, though there are those who think it'll work out that way. I really like the overlapping of the Tristan/Mordred stories. Perhaps even Anya could even be Gino's love interest, it doesn't seem like the apparent age difference matters--then again, I don't know if there even is an age difference, but it sure looks like there's one.

    You mentioned Guinevere and it reminded me, what do you make of one of the royal family members being named Guinevere? I thought that was interesting, considering up until now, the Arthurian names were limited to the machines. Is Guinevere the wife of Charles or one of his daughters? Still it's interesting.

    I thought your comparison of Nunnally as Lelouch's Guinevere to be particularly interesting. I must show you this quote from Wikipedia. I know, I'm a scholar and Wikipedia is never a valid source, but hey, we're discussing an anime so I think it's okay!

    "Later, when his brothers Agravain and Mordred plot to destroy Lancelot and Guinevere by exposing their love affair, Gawain tries to stop them. When Guinevere is sentenced to burn at the stake and Arthur deploys his best knights to guard the execution, Gawain nobly refuses to take part in the deed even though his brothers will be there. But when Lancelot returns to rescue Guinevere, a battle between Lancelot's and Arthur's knights ensues and Gawain's brothers, except for Mordred, are killed."

    Okay, let me break this down slowly and almost like, sentence by sentence. Lancelot (Suzaku) and Guinevere (Nunnally) are exposed for their "love affair". I think the love affair could be their attempt to save the Japanese or something. They both care about Euphemia's dream and I think that is going to bring them into direct conflict with Charles at some point. I wonder if Mordred (Anya) will find a way to benefit her own goals (whatever they may be at some point) by exposing Suzaku and Nunnally. Anya, if what we've theorized is right, is going to be important and trying to expose Suzaku and Nunnally at whatever scheme they're up to is a big deal. Gawain (Lelouch) would try to stop Anya because, if I recall, when Suzaku told Lelouch about his goal of becoming Knight of One and controlling Area 11, Lelouch thought it was the right thing to do. Perhaps Nunnally and Suzaku are achieving this goal through their own methods and Anya threatens that plan, thus Lelouch decides she must be stopped. So then Charles (Arthur) is going to execute Nunnally, but Lelouch is unable to stop him, so Lancelot, er, Suzaku, saves her instead. This would result in a scenario where it's Suzaku vs Knights of Round.

    This is all theory, but I thought it fit so well, it's hard to be overlooked. Let me know what you think.

    And you brought up Cornelia!

    I've been dying for a solid Cornelia discussion ever since I started posting in the Code Geass part of these forums. I've been trying to figure out where Cornelia might fit into the Arthurian tradition and I think you may be right that she just doesn't fit into the stories. A shame, because I would love to be able to compare her to someone.

    However, in your Chess analogy, I wonder if she may be something other than the Queen. I understand entirely why you would say that because, let's face it, she's just about the only person until like, Schneizel came into the picture, that was able to go head to head with Lelouch and not fail miserably. I am a firm believer that the Chess analogy for this show is always morphing and pieces are always changing.

    For instance, and I say this fearing your response since you seem to be a big Kallen fan, but Kallen was a pawn. She was one of Lelouch's most fearsome pawns at that. She took down many other pieces and because she was able to do that, she was able to cross the board. And in Chess, when a pawn cross the board, they become a Queen. That's why I think it's important that she was captured by the enemy. Now that she's been captured, she's finally reached the other side of the board and she becomes a Queen. Up until now, I think it's fair to say that C.C. was Lelouch's Queen. But I mean, that's just my view on it and please don't hurt me!

    But back to the first season, she was, without a doubt, the White Queen. Charles is the King and she was definitely the Queen. However, she was taken out of the picture and because Britannia has a huge amount of pieces, Schneizel came into the picture and I think he's taken the role of Queen. But they're two totally different Queens. Cornelia was the aggressive Queen and she used her power to personally eliminate the opposing pieces, where Schneizel is the Queen that sits back and let's his other pieces do the attacking.

    I'm not a fan of the idea that Cornelia is going to join Lelouch, but I do think that her and the Glaston Knights are going to form their own "faction" that may, at times, cooperate with Zero if the situation calls for it. I do not think she's going to pledge her allegiance to Lelouch in any way, shape, or form. I'm really tempted to say that we're going to get a new team. If we've got White and Black pieces, I think Cornelia is going to form the Gray pieces. She will be the King and Guilford would be her Queen.

    I hope I covered everything you wrote, if I missed something and you want me to touch upon it in my reply, let me know! This has been really interesting so far and I really think we've got some fantastic ideas. Sorry for the length of this, by the way.
  10. Var
    2008-07-02 11:56
    I wanted to continue my thought about Kallen and others not falling within the Arthurian analogy. I'm going to make a few assumptions:

    -Nunally is Lelouch's Guinevere: She is taken away by Suzaku (Lancelot).
    -Euphemia is Lelouch's Iseult: Taken away, and falls in love with Suzaku.
    -Tristan and Mordred's tales are intertwined: Anya is both Mordred and Iseult for Charles and Gino.
    -Cornelia, Kallen, the Order, the other Royals, Orange, and the majority of every other character, including Shirley, are more in line to the Chess analogy than the Arthurian.
    -Basically, I'm putting the Royals and KoR as the analogous parallels to Arthurian legends, and everyone else as chess parallels.

    Simply, continuing the point, recently we had Kallen meet with Nunally. Which, in some ways, ties the two parallels together. Which, I think, is a fair assumption as we are nearing the end of the story and plot lines have to start converging. In the Chess analogy Kallen is Lelouch Queen and Knight, where Nunally is Lelouch's Queen in the Arthurian legends. Both Queens have, therein, collected, which, if anything, is symbolic of events to come.

    Cornelia's return is the return of the White Queen, as she was the main power in the last season. Schneizel or Charles would likely fall as the White King, with Suzaku and Guilford, as well as the other KoR, falling as the knights. Therein the white queen from Chess, will soon, likely, meet up with Lancelot/Tristan/Mordred.

    Update: I did a little reading on Iseult and Tristan. The story of which you refer, Iseult of Ireland, is based around deceit and Tristan being the true hero. It is definately fitting for Anya, much more so than Kallen, as one is truly being deceived or was deceived, where as Kallen was being deceived but was rescued (ironically) by the one holding the truth, C.C.. I suppose we could say C.C. is Kallen's Tristan. O-o

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