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Conversation Between totoum and Undertaker
Showing Visitor Messages 1 to 9 of 9
  1. totoum
    2012-03-19 04:01
    Which is fine, and its the same as "does the opinion of the few really equals quality?"
    Well that's another timeless debate I won't get into

    But I understand what you're saying.I have been following the thread as you can see here and here

    But really taking the 2nd example Marcus H doesn't strike me as the type to "cowardly run away"
  2. Undertaker
    2012-03-19 03:24
    Which is fine, and its the same as "does the opinion of the few really equals quality?"

    Again, I don't have problem with criticism as long as they states the it's their personal opinion. It's the ones that don't state the said criticism as opinion and don't offer their own reason that I have problem with. Even worse, some would even drop one-liner and which they claimed as fact that is simply not true.

    Again using the same AW thread as example, in earlier comments someone just mention that they can't stand Yoshino and how Yoshino is overrated and the example he gives are Guilty Crown (which is fine) and SEED Destiny. when others and me mentioned that he was only involved in a handle of episode, the dude disappeared.

    Another poster had problem with Yoshino because he "ruined" the anime adaption of Seikon no Qwaser. when people mentioned that he is the writer and creator for the manga as well, he disappeared.

    Those are the types of people that I have problem with. Is is really hard to just acknoledge that they didn't know or made a mistake? If they want they can even pick another of his work instead, but they don't. They just disappears...
  3. totoum
    2012-03-19 03:04
    When the commercial argument was presented, suddenly people in those group just disappears.
    Well I can't speak for others but the reason I never reply to that is that I feel the "does commercial success equal quality?" question is one timeless debate that will always occur so I'm afraid that if I replied to a post about commercial success I'd risk derailing the thread completely.
  4. Undertaker
    2012-03-16 05:15
    oh, I don't give a damn on neg reps nor the comment. I'm much more pissed that the dude is such a wimp that he, or she, left a provocative message and then runs away with tails in between the legs.

    As for the the people in that crowd comment, you'd be surprised if you read the through the Accel World thread. When the commercial argument was presented, suddenly people in those group just disappears. And it's a recurring theme all over the place and that pisses me off because I want to have a debate and exchange views, it's how you grow as fans and or even as a person.

    The ones that continues to argue are the rare ones that gives you civil discussion and states that it's their personal opinion to begin with. So in my mind they are not part of that group and I have the respect of the world for them even if I don't agree sometimes.

    As for the freedom of speech part, you're right, but in that case, they shouldn't making a post that questions why others feels the need to defend other people because it's the same thing that gives them the right to diss and critique people. (That's if assuming the one who left the message is the original poster of the question, but either way it was a cowardly action by gutless individual)

    I view is that if they aren't willing o get critique themselves, don't critique other people.
  5. totoum
    2012-03-15 16:20
    I'm tend to be more of a stats person where sales and polls/popularity means more to me than personal opinion
    I don't think people in that crowd try to deny that Yoshino or Yuuki have been succesful in the "comercial" sense of the word,it's just that they think they havn't been "successful" in appealing to them,and when it comes to that polls and sale numbers are irrelevant.That's probably why you got the extreme "this is the dumbest possible answer with the dumbest possible reasons" neg rep

    While I can feel your pain I really don't think neg reps are that big of a deal,I don't take them personaly,for all I know someone was just having a bad day and needed to vent off on someone and it happened to be me , also:

    Last time I checked this is still a free country and just as people like him has freedom of speech to diss people, so do I.
    Getting neg repped is still different from having your message deleted or getting an infraction for posting it,I don't feel it touches your freedom of speech.
  6. Undertaker
    2012-03-15 08:29
    I sure some of it must be the case, but is it really hard to type an extra word or even just a "IMO"?

    And like you said if they really have backing for it they can easily defend themselves and not just disappear out of sight.

    Really, like I said in the my post I'm not even a Yuuki fan and staff really don't really interest me too much other then been use as a tool for me judge how long I'll stay with a series before I drop.

    On offense, the trend I've seen is more that if they have tendency to offer solid backing they will usually talk back, or at worse leaving a short message that this is not their thing and be done with it and don't check back and they usually won't condamn a series when the only info we have is the staff and a 1-min prototype test footage.

    Heck you PM me and we are have a civil discussion, (sort of, since now it seem like I'm just venting off. )

    AW stated his case, and I agree with him somewhat and there are plenty of other posters who can't stop raving about Denpa Kanojo which I actually didn't like as adaption. (but loved it as LN)

    Granted, my personality is the type that if you rub me the wrong way and I'm gonna defend myself, and I'm tend to be more of a stats person where sales and polls/popularity means more to me than personal opinion, but I'm perfectly willing to accept or at least agree to disagree if they can back it up with "some" reason.

    But somehow I just feel there are not very many people like us who's fully willing to debate and defend and not just spit some shit out and call it a day.

    Hell, I got negative reputation points for that post of mine that we are discussing right now on my reason for defend Yoshino and Yuuki.

    The dude didn't even got the gut to leave his ID in the reason column and his only reason was "this is the dumbest possible answer with the dumbest possible reasons".

    And that's not even mentioning that there was no follow up posts on that, nor the PM conversation that we are having right now and it happens way more often than I can count.

    Last time I checked this is still a free country and just as people like him has freedom of speech to diss people, so do I.

    And that is really where I have a problem. The freaking Chunibyo crowd that is all over the freaking place who assume they know ACG and has the experience but they really don't.
  7. totoum
    2012-03-15 03:14
    Just want to say first that I have nothing against Yoshino and said earlier in the thread that since it was an adaptation his original work (which I'm no that failiar with anyway) didn't matter much.

    but there is a small crowd where all they keep bring up was Guilty Crown yet refuse to give him credit on his work in Macross Frontier, Codes Geass, Mai-franchises,
    I'm pretty sure that that small crowd dislikes all those just like GC,there already was Yoshino bashing going on in the GC thread before GC started airing based on those other shows.
    I've also seen a few of those posters make long posts in the GC subforum about why they dislike it.

    There's also posters that post assuming that you know everything they say is their opinion.So when they say "This thing sucks" they don't mean it as a fact but rather they figure you'll assume it's them expressing their opinion.Not saying that's the case for everyone but I've seeen it happen.
  8. Undertaker
    2012-03-14 15:27
    Agree on Jeter. Let's get this out first.

    As for popularity, some poster already posted before on how Yuuki is one of the most followed male VA and constantly rank in front on poll, which is evident enough.

    and while popularity and be interpreted by sales along. The fact most of Yoshino's projects sold well showed that he's work is at least popular.

    Winning award is also undeniable fact. You have various works/people compete for that award, yet they are the ones that win. And it the only way those working in entertainment field can get acknowledged for quality and not popularity (sales).

    It one thing if you are saying that awards are not valid because they are still based on 3rd party factors. Which is fine, but it is still the best way for acknowledge quality in those fields.

    Put it this way, winning titles in sports can still be argued about it legitimacy. There are enough incident where a change of call can impact the outcome and the team/player that won titles are not really the best player/team that year.

    In Yankee's case it can be argued that Yankee's success are mainly because of their market they are in and money they are willing to spend and and other outside factors as well and not really the team or the franchise but more of the market and structure of the Major League.

    Really, what is the most important thing on making anime? or any ACG for that matter? It's making the project appeal to others (popularity) so it can make money(sales).

    To that point, the few people that keep dissing Yoshino has yet to offer any reason why Yoshino sucks.

    I don't know if you've been follow the entire thread, but there is a small crowd where all they keep bring up was Guilty Crown yet refuse to give him credit on his work in Macross Frontier, Codes Geass, Mai-franchises, Kuroshitsuji, or Denpa-Kanojo. They even bring SEED Destiny into it when he was only responsible for a the screenplay in a handful of episodes. When other bring up those aforementioned series then they push it aside to marketing or other members of the staff for the success of those series. How does that making any sense or even fair?

    Going back to Jeter, the only reason we can back up that he suck defensively is because there are stats like (Ultimate) Zone Ratings and Range Factors that are in contrast to the players and coaches' eye tests. Otherwise that is still just personal opinion and that is really my point here.

    I don't have issue on bashing Yoshino and Yuuki, but at least offer some backing to it or say it out front that it's just their personal opinion. Not just sprung one-liners and call it a fact.
  9. totoum
    2012-03-14 12:24
    Don't feel like adressing this in the accel world thread so I'll just adress this here

    Its like talking about the Yankees, I can hate the Yankees all I want, but I can't just start saying that entire Yankee franchise is the greatest failure in the history of baseball without some reasoning behind it. Even if I bring up the 2004 collapse to my Sox, the fact remains that the franchise won more titles than any other baseball franchises by far.
    I don't think winning titles can be compared with being popular and winning awards.
    The former is a undeniable fact,you can't contest a world series win,however popularity and awards can definatly be contested.
    To stay in baseball,I don't care how popular Jeter is and how many gold glove he's won,he's not a great defensive shortstop.

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