Oh. You may want to try AGE again. Episodes 6-10 are sorta the doldrums of the series and it's a bit slow, but it picks up a lot more at the end of the 1st arc.
Ah, the bigger a franchise gets, the more bitter the fans get XD But I guess a flaw in that is that people often idealize their favorite series and demand everything be like it, whether it be Gundam Wing or Zeta Gundam. For the Kyoani fandom, there's always Haruhi as the eternal standard. It's what I term the "Arbitrary Cutoff point" and it happens not just for anime... "X game sucks after that... and Kanon was the last good Key anime etc"
Yea it became so much of a mantra I didn't even pay attention anymore. In fact when I criticized the visuals I didn't even bring up the animation level because it's so assumed already.
And I guess quality can be very subjective. I mean consistency and creativity is very different. I mean for example, Shaft will win no awards for animation but those visuals are distinct in their own way. And Madhouse can do really faithful adaptations-- Akagi is practically ported panel for panel! So I don't think Kyoani is light years ahead of everyone but I will say that they are the best at what they do, if that sounds fair.
There's even subtle things like people's viewing habits. I have friends that always skip opening and ending credits. I usually don't so guess who gets impacted more by a good OP/ED? There's a big difference between watching a mystery series and speculating every week and marathoning it all at once.
Though a quick glance recently at the Lucky Star 4koma shows how well Kyoani brought that to life actually. And it was very faithful. And Kyoani character designs for Key are wayyy better than the original counterparts, or PA works ones... or especially Toei.
Haha, I remember the AGE thing. Honestly speaking though, I ended up liking the character designs more than I did the show. I gave it a bunch of episodes and was actually pleasantly surprised by how it kicked off. Some neat rescue plans, sacrifices and all. It was very Gundam-y, behind the kiddie-ish designs. However, and ironically enough, the show started going downhill for me from episode 5 and beyond, which, supposedly, was what Hino said would be "the really cool episode"!
But yeah, Gundam fans I'd say are pickier than people who watch Kyoto shows. It might be related to the fact that a lot of Gundam fans who are willing to get into debates about it are those guys who have been following the franchise ever since they were younger, so really, the expectations are always really high. And I guess they're "real" expectations, from fans who actually will not refrain from criticising the show if they feel it's not delivering what they initially thought it would.
On the other hand, sometimes I also feel that a lot of the Kyoto praise is very... superfluous. There's a ton of "Kyoto Animation fans" who simply repeat the same "it's very detailed", "great animation" mantra but are, for the most part, unable to properly explain why this is being said. This became more apparent the more famous the studio grew, too, which I guess is just the price being paid for said recognition of their works. Coupled with the wide appeal of their more recent Kadokawa titles and how easy they are to enjoy, pretty much anyone can join the bandwagon for "Kyoto" fans, haha.
Still, and while I do try to keep myself away from that, it really wouldn't be much of a stretch to call Kyoto Animation my favourite studio in the industry, but that's because I /really/ enjoy their work "philosophy", if one might call it that. Like I told someone else, if I were to make a football analogy, Kyoto would probably be the Barcelona of the anime industry. They might not always win, but they know perfectly well what they're after and how they want to attain that. Working with the same principles over a ton of years and keeping an in-house staff just gives them something that few other studios possess, and it's that particular bit what I enjoy the most. Of course, one might argue that it gets 'predictable', but I don't mind. There are all those other studios and equally talented freelancer dudes working in partnership to create those "innovative" and original works which I'll end up enjoying a lot, too.
Well, to be fair, this is not a majority opinion or anything, but it's vocal and the very fact a lot of people could conceive of it indicates a very strong fanbase. And at the very least they are more understanding and more lenient. Not that is always a bad thing mind you. It just goes overboard.
And yes, even though I like to go LOL DEEN or w/e it's important to judge a show by its own merits. Especially bigger studios who have different staff which is why the brand name can be so deceptive. JC staff apparently does have an A-term, and it shows. And yea, I personally admit to having a bias against them about LB! since I truly believed Kyoani's past history shows them as an optimal choice for Key. I mean just look at what they did with the character designs and a high success rate. But still... I guess it's too much to bash a show before I started.
But yea, my initial comment was in response to Kyoani never getting a break and receiving a ton of criticism. But I feel studios like Sunrise are bashed without giving them a chance. Gundam Age was immediately derided as the worst Gundam before it even aired simply due to character designs. The writing isn't the best in the world, but from what I saw, they were pretty damned brutal in locating plot holes, as opposed to other shows. Even the well received Gundam Unicorn is not free from this.
Then again... maybe those fans are just pickier.
On the other hand, maybe it's good Kyoani being criticized so much; it means people think so highly of them that they feel urged to impose such a standard, but my complaint is that the line is set a bit too low. It doesn't change their own quality though. But it's a skilled person playing with a handicap; of course they win everytime.
And lol, you may be a fan and so may I, but hardly anything resembling the fanatical fanboys. Though I hesitate to even use that term since that is way too dismissive. I know better than to do that and rest assured my negative opinion of Hyou-ka extends thus far only to episode 1, the trailer, and not everyone's mothers.
In the end, I wanted to hear why people thought this was a good show. Not a bunch of one liners and telling us to orz just because it's Kyoani. Unlike some people, I only watch a show if there's a chance I'll have something to gain from it. I want a response that satisfies me, though of course, if it doesn't, it doesn't mean it's wrong either. A lot of people just don't understand this and think I want to piss on the parade.
In that case, then sure, I'm just going to side with you here. There's no defense possible for outrageously bad E8 is, and people who come up with the trolling thing simply aren't worth the trouble. Actually, that's the issue with the Internet these days, words people just throw around as if they have some incredible meaning. 'Troll', 'moe' (which apparently works for everything that is slightly cute now) and so on.
Either way, I don't even like talking about studios in the first place, because there aren't a lot of them which you can be sure what to expect. Take DEEN for example. Sankarea is a really neat show, looks good and it has some nice direction as well. If I acted like "OH GOD DEEN" I probably wouldn't even give it a chance, since it means it'll be bad from the get-go. Same applies to J.C Staff here, who knows how LB will turn out. However, same way people go "oh god DEEN", I'm sure it's 'understandable' why there was such a backlash on their announcement as the studio in charge of LB. People come from three really loved Kyoto works, and they expect nothing will be able to top that off. It's not unnusual, just a bit funny.
Oh, and in that same vein, Kyoto is an exception. I can safely talk about it as a studio since it has a ton of in-house staff, so at the very least you KNOW you'll be getting a good looking show where technical bits are concerned.
Anyhow, you're welcomed. I think I get treated as the big bad KyoAni fanboy simply for defending it way too early, so it's also nice when I see some people acknowledge that I'm not going 'blind fanboyism' here. I'm willing to hear what anyone has to say, and I'll simply present my point in return. That's what arguments are for, right? :V
Yes they did, and even called it genius "trolling". As that was something to be proud of and I guarantee that would be not accepted by anyone else doing it. Since that was what I saw when I started posting on AS that's my perception. And little has changed. Most of it was credited with the meta-marketing campaign involving it and Disappearance. Which admittingly was a clever plan in parts, but a spade is a spade IMO
Well, basically my point wasn't to bash them for Endless Eight. But of all honesty, how often do we consider the situation for these studios? If a studio gets a small budget to do their shows, is the staff really trash and so is the studio? It was very strong in the Little Busters thread in which JC staff (which is more of a mass production studio) in which many people just didn't give them the credit for what they did do right (though... certainly people often remember the bad). There's so much that's out of their control though. Crappy source... but guess who gets blamed?
One thing that is fair is that because of the goodwill they've built up, they've earned the right to give them a chance. Incidentally, I've put too much faith in the brand name, and staff and source material are critical factors.
Still, animation and faithfulness don't equate to the holy grail. It should be noted that all 3 key adaptations and Haruhi are in my top 25 anime I believe so I am not hating on Kyoani by any means; I just feel they have gotten preferential treatment, a little bit more than they should have.
But thanks anyways. I appreciate it when someone doesn't tell me to just shut up and give it a chance. That's actually something to give it a chance for...
As to avoid more offtopic there -- I don't know, I try not to follow Haruhi conversations. Did people really try to justify E8? I mean, it was terrible, the only justification I can give was the one I gave there. It wasn't of their own accord that they did eight episodes which were basically the same. Kadokawa simply forced them to. But other than that, there's really no excuse and no way to go around and call E8, well, good.