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???? Are we watching the same show??

Everything has turned into a major saltfest ever since the anime is nearing its end lol

As I said I stopped watching around episode 21/22, so I can't really tell after that point. But I was referring from ep. 1 to that point, that is actually more than enough.

You know something? Assuming that Lady M is indeed Lynn Minmay and is appearing in tomorrow's finale, Macross Delta will have beaten Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. in having a headliner character from an earlier iteration of the franchise appear.

At the thought of Lady M being Minmei...

They stretched the "Who is Lady M" mystery far too long - even if hey would have revealed her in this episode it would have been extremely underwhelming, IMO. With all their Lady M mentioning and never showing/revealing anything I really stopped caring.

I expected M to be Milia, but knowing Kawamori, he likes to troll fans, especially our expectations, until the very end.

I always hoped it would be Milia or Mylene But they let me down on this one D:

@Matts: Well given the whole Fold Living Network Connection thinger End Game was already a rehash of Frontier, that's kind of impossible to avoid at this point;; Even if Mirage doesn't, It's clear Freyja's going to be accessing that plot rip so why not have some semblance of coherency eh? (As if it's going to happen >_>)

I still....like Mirage despite all this. If I sit down and think about it there's really no way for Mirage to have won this triangle. In fiction, it's in bad form to fight aggressively in love against someone with 15 years left to live/has a fast depleting lifespan. Mirage knew this from the start, it's not like the Sheryl bomb where it came out nearer to the end and Sheryl was desperately trying to hide the fact. Freyja's mortality was out in the open from the moment she joined (Heck even Mirage mentions it first) so the moment Freyja seemed interested and Mirage had tickling feelings it was already GG for Mirage on that front. I mean even if Hayate had reciprocated some of the feels the way Frontier was balanced, she'd still be expected to concede because it's kind of a gross situation to be in. It would likely have been far more toxic/distasteful if she'd fought in this >_> Especially when the romantic interest was...uhg...Hayate.

At the very, very least Mirage comes out of this show being the person who isn't a scumbag? I hate that she was forced into this position by the story but what I liked about her was always her choice to put the well being of others and important matters ahead of her own personal feelings.

@Arya: I can say for certain there are no major developments of note at 23/24/25 that's going to change your mind if the series has felt that way all up until 22. The plot is run by the same convenience towards Freyja and Hayate as when the show began. Whatever problems that they've glossed over until this point has pretty much sorted themselves out without any worthwhile action out of those two's part (If you believe hard enough, everyone else will gather together the convenient evidence to make your dad seem innocent and explain away with hypotheticals) and whatever problems now are being purposely withheld by Freyja because it's meant to seem like she has strength of character and doesn't want Hayate to worry or something.

...Which would have been all well and good if this wasn't their default go to activity every single time in the show but okay >_>; The way it's set up for the finale... Hayate's going to find out Freyja's going to die in the whole Fold network thinger ma bob, but it's been established that Hayate wants to live every day awesomely in the awesome of awesomes so I don't get what contributions past melodrama we're even gonna get out of the finale. I mean do we really think he's going to say anything new when he hasn't for 25 episodes straight...?

I mean I guess sure there's a confession in order but I guess we can all forget how cop out the "power of (preordained) love" endings can be while we're at it. It'll be Pikachu+Pokemon tears reviving Petrified ded owner. It's fine. It's fine.
It's fine. If I say it enough maybe I'll believe it.

@jingdot: It became a saltfest because the show started info dumping like no tomorrow and rumors that an open-romance ending started spreading >_> A majority of anything Freyja related salt had little to do with what was actually on screen and more over what can possibly hypothetically happen to sink the ship =_=

Asides from her quickened crusties...but honestly who didn't see that coming?

Yeah, I mean, if anything this show has been Freyja-centric, no matter how it ends. And no, I don't think she earned it. And by she I mean the people writing her.

IDGAF about the love triangle, Mirage being a memorable character did never, in any way depend on that. She did actually grow, but because of the way HayaFre was spotlit no matter what happens, most people will think of her as that chick "who never did anything and omg lost to the moeblob" even if that is in no way the case. <_<

meh. Delta can't be over soon enough so I can move on (even if there is a movie fix/rehash I'll do my best to look at it without comparing it to the series)

EDIT: oh, yeah, btw, before ippus show's me the light, ie before I got what the writers were going for with Mirage, I already had major issues with 99% the cast + HayaFre being written, it only got worse, so even if Mirage had none of the stuff in the back that she does, I'd still feel the same way.
Also why all the concert stuff on the main board. That's one thing I feel Delta did right. Sheryl and Ranka were performers only, they had some crazy action song moments, but those were initiated by them, they wanted to do something. Walküre is by default a tactical unit, the concerts they do are almost always meant to be a part of some sort of operation. Nothin' wrong with that, I think.

@Matts: Again...it's not like I want her with Hayate either, but as far as being kicked about like Zessica is concerned (in general) that's sort of how I see her romantic interests within scenario. It was kind of no win, even in the light of just relevance. I do feel some dignity in her for recognizing the fact and keeping cautious distance in it all >_>;; Cus I'd have hated if the 'fan' narrative was instead "that bitch tried to take the love of a dying girl" even if "she has no growth and no reason to exist" isn't all that much better.

if people thought I was hyper aggressive right now =______________=
Heads would roll if that had been the fan narrative. I'd likely have gotten banned 5 times over.

Also I like how the vocal few AS Freyja fans are acting like they're a minority fighting desperately for their beloved heroine against the sea of hatred from Mirage fans. Like...what Mirage fans. Including me, i can probably count the number of Mirage fans I've met in ONE HAND. There are the more neutral and ambivalent inbetween but that mostly goes both ways. Like what drugs are people on that they're under such delusions.

As for concerts...eh. I don't have a complaint but I admit I don't enjoy them. I loved it in Episode 1-2 because the Walkure felt like a tactical battle medic unit, but the moment they started going all static AKB I got really dulled out. The lack of good VF action sequences and repeated Giraffe Bluesing didn't help.

Oh and Magical flight padding........sigh.

Remember the days when our heroes were desperately fighting against SWARMS of Vajira? With the backdrop of epic music blasting between expressive scenes...??

Ah....

I dunno. Maybe a vocal portion of the fanbase is frustrated, I guess. I don't know japanese well enough, but would a generally loathed show be charting on polls in magazines, month in, month out? I just... Don't share you guys frustrations, I guess.

Time will tell.

@BetoJr: Mmm...I don't feel like I've ever made sweeping statements about the entirety of the fanbase being negative towards the show...? Just the said vocal few and Shipping war 'fan' narratives? Otherwise All my complaints have always been my perceived problems with the show.

I do find that Reviews in general seem pretty damning of the show while reddit/twitter has been positive all round (!?) Macross world forums tend to be half and half though the negative are still more vocal in the discussion. Their conversations seem more relevant than the BS that goes on in the main forums here though...

Well, weren't Valvrave, Guilty Crown and Aldnoah Zero also on the charts? All these three shows trainwrecked quite a bit (totally and utterly in the case of Guilty Crown). So I wouldn't say that the charts are that indicative of a shows quality. I mean, Kirito was popular and is one of the worst Mary Sue shitbag characters of the last decade....

I just draw my stuff from tumblr (the posi side are a bunch of people from here, using the same icons and p much copy pasting the same posts they do here). I know others, maybe 3 people who are positive whatever happens, all 3 are pretty awesome in general, so I chalk it up to that. But I know others who are/were into previous entries and given up on Delta long before I have, but for the same reasons.
Pixiv is pretty lacking too, Frontier gets new stuff all the time, including birthday art for characters. Delta content is meh and mostly because the show lacks suspense. HayaFre is front center everywhere so no suspense there. Sure Fre might die, but going by the theme of the show + what Kawanyan said I doubt she'll kick the bucket. Nor do I want her to, it doesn't have the feel or build up, and like everything else intended as a major twist it'd come off as cheap and lazy. Sure, following through with the moeblob with no development getting the airhead protag is... yeah, lacking in every way, but they've been pushing it so much, so heavily to the detriment of plot/characters/etc. they might as well just follow through and let it (the "dorama") die already.
Ffs I've been wondering/saying (either here or on tumblr) for weeks now that Freyja should be dying by the lore of the show and they decided to just throw it in at last moment. In contrast Sheryl dying was foreshadowed very early on in the series. Hell, if you want deep comparisons, Minmay and Hikaru's issues, the reason they just couldn't work in the end was pretty well indicated even before say episode 27.

I'm super tired, heavily medicated and my depression is... not good. So I'm just gonna try to write up how I see the message Delta conveys with HayFrey:
So a train is rushing towards you and you are on the tracks. You have the option to do the sensible thing and escape, or you can be a moron, hope for the best, and get run over. Hayate would say something positive and get mangled. Along with Freyja, because Hayate can't possibly be wrong. This is the realistic scenario. In Delta Mirage would swoop in to save their asses and they would be praised while she gets ignored. That is the show. From day 1, that has been the show. Hayate and Freyja made no progress, and I can't relate to characters like this. A story with MCs staying the same from start to finish isn't good, or interesting. It only gets worse when it is to the detriment of a gigantic set of side characters who have one note "personalities" (tech boob lady kawaii, hacker silent not-nagato yuki, captain stubble beard and green captain stubble beard, kakizaki with gills etc., red head drinking or something, mysterious plot girl of mystery, emo srsss death flag ace pilot).

Mirage is the least of the shows problems. HayaFre not moving forward bothered me more than anything. Nobody in the main cast being used bothered me even more. The non-sensical war bs reasonings... just... ugggh. Delta is a mess of ideas, it's super awesome they work for some. They don't work for me. I'm at a point in my life where I just say fuck this when I see a show make no sense. I'm only skimming through at this point, if it wasn't Macross I wouldn't be here at all.

I'm also super duper tired of the Kawamori defense thing after suffering through his most recent works (minus AKB which, to the surprise of probably everyone, turned out pretty good, and I say this as a person who had to take 5. 5! shots over two months to finally watch the first episode). I'm not gonna jump and bash Kawanyan, because I know he can work on shit, SHIT projects and love them himself. But I also have no reason to hold back when it comes to pointing out plot holes, dubious moral lesson crammed in, and overall bad writing. Shit happens, even to him. Him patting himself on the back won't change that. All these interviews do is possibly give us a clue in to how he thought about stuff they added. The question is: did they manage to communicate this to the viewers? Because your intent as a writer means jack all if your viewers disagree. No matter what he or anybody else on the staff says will make me feel different. They did with Frontier, but the thing is, with that show there were questions I wanted answers to, while I liked the show regardless. Delta. Delta is a mess.

I'mma bed. See you guys later.

Edit: Oooo I remember what I forgot. All I ever see is FreHa fans bashing Mirage, whenever a glimps comes up she might "win" (lol, she might as well win a bag of sand). Mirage fans just get pissed off at this and respond, even more so because most of the hate is asspull, like that time Hirokeiwhatsit deducted from a screenshot preview that Mirage wasn't blending in on Wind. Never mind Freyja gave them away. And this wasn't even the first time. Now this. This remind me of OD level bullshit, like Sheryl looking bitchfaced at Ranka in ep 10. God...

Hey, man, Matts, I really appreciate you being here, you, ippus, Triple R and of course Tak and Beto and whomever I am forgetting at this moment. Just wanted to say that.

I love you and everybody listed too. <3

@magnuskn, ippus, Matts, Arya, and anybody else here feeling dissatisfied (or worst) with their Macross Delta experience - Don't worry, I get it. In spite of how I really like Freyja, I get where you're all coming from. Mainly because your issues with Macross Delta remind me vividly of my own issues with the currently airing Love Live Sunshine. Delta falls well short of Frontier for you guys just like Sunshine falls well short of the original Love Live for me. And some of the specific issues are even the same (I find Sunshine a little overly silly and stupid at times, even for a somewhat lighthearted ldol anime show).

In addition to this personal connection, I also get your arguments, at least intellectually. It's true that Hayate and Freyja are a little simple-minded. I think what they're aiming for with them is a very idealistic youthful teenager approach to things, and it works some for me that way - It reminds me a little of Valvrave that way. But then Valvrave at least had the more pragmatic L-Elf and Saki to provide some counterbalance to Haruto and Shouko, whereas there isn't really that kind of counterbalance to Hayate and Freyja since Messer died (I'm definitely NOT blaming Mirage for this, as this doesn't need to be her role).

I do find Hayate and Freyja's idealism kinda charming, but I'll admit it has its moments of genuine stupidity. Hayate asking Mirage to protect Freyja for him was heartwarming to me as a HayaFrey shipper... but it's also a bizarre/dumb thing to say when all three of them are in the process of being executed. I get how these Hayate-isms or Freyja-isms could eventually get overwhelmingly bad for the more logically-inclined, lol.

I just hope that the finale offers something that you guys can enjoy, and if not, that the next Macross is much more to your liking.

It's also been interesting to read your points, even if my own experience with Delta is a fair bit different. I'll admit I have a bias in favor of genki girls, and that definitely helps with Delta.

@Tak - Thanks for having this social group! Great place for more in-depth Macross discussion.

Someone hand me a tissue, I think I am having a manly-tears moment...

I actually have trouble checking on the Macross Delta fanbase on Tumblr...I guess if I'm not part of circles there it's hard to actually keep track of people @_@;

The Train analogy is about right I think, only sometimes Freyja Sings Hayate into FF6 Suplex mode, or the train disappears altogether from existence before impact LOLOLOL

@Triple_R you're literally the only HayaFrey poster on main boards that I've taken seriously for some months now. I do disagree with how easily you let certain things pass but that's more of an issue of how much I'm not willing to let through (thus resulting in a far more damning experience of events) rather than anything else. I really appreciate your approach to the show though, even if I just don't have it in me to look at things that way.

I'd like to say though, my views of Macross Delta is actually more coloured by a different show not of the Macross Franchise. Delta to Frontier is an easy comparison, but what makes me salt about Delta is actually Eureka Seven (the original one) from some while back. The heroine isn't a genki girl but the show was unabashedly centralized in one young pairing, but it's their growths and their abilities to resolve their adversities that has always made me feel a lot for the show. Of course the fact it was like 50 episodes long helped a lot too on the development front but I hadn't thought at any point the show was just "given" to them.

The thing about idealism is that everyone knows that it's impractical. What is usually endearing about people who still hold onto those beliefs is a contrast between a mostly cynical world and their passions and their strong, secure sense of character to keep those ideals afloat- but I just don't feel like Delta has done that. Freyja and Hayate don't work for their idealisms, they just spout it. They spout it as fact and the world, however messed up, bends around to accommodate for their 'facts' so that their idealism isn't challenged.

I think the best way to describe this sort of battle is quite literally Basara from M7. By all accounts Basara's intention to sing the world into submission was right, but he wrestled with everyone in the show for that and quite honestly, as a watcher of the show he was pretty stupid to just...absurd levels. The army didn't want him there getting in the way of the fight against the protodevlin, the Protodevlin themselves were just WTF!? and either ran away or grew more aggressive to run away. Mylene thought he was being stupid, everyone later thought of him like Ranka (musical weapon, defense whatever) and so on and so forth...but despite the world and those around him being WTF about his ideals, Basara stubbornly (and incredibly obnoxiously...) stuck to his belief that people should just listen to his song and eventually succeeds in making those around him understand his point of view.

In contrast, there is no tenacity to Hayate or Freyja's ideals. They passively sit around talking pretty but they do little to put their beliefs into action. They also never think about the difference between their own beliefs and those of others, resulting in this constant smash of just things at each other. Heck sometimes their ideals are forgotten altogether (Hayate wants to never kill people, but he basically tried to Kill Keith. Freyja wants to communicate her feelings to those in Windermere and end the war, but for a long time now her song has either been used as a tool for battle tactics or to buff Hayate...) and I just straight up don't like that disconnect. It affects so much of how I perceive their actions @_@

@The rest of you on Tak's board +Tak: I don't like being cheesy so...yeah. You guys are cool.

-Cough-

Erm, I think positivism doesn't mean what you think. Positivism