Perhaps you should think about that. The fact that you don't appear to know makes it very difficult for me to discuss anything with you.

As much as I'd love to go on a long tangent about moral philosophy (and perhaps it would be better to PM me about it if you wished to), I simply can't unless I can understand the philosophical framework upon which you base your decisions about moral acts. As far as I know, you don't have one. If I'm wrong, feel free to illuminate me, but we are drifting somewhat off-topic, and the thread probably doesn't need that.The existence of potentially bad consequences do not cease to make an action morally desirable. Being punished sucks, hurts your feelings, and may restrict your freedom or cause you physical harm. That doesn't mean it isn't right at times.

There are situations which may justify delaying revelation of the truth. However, there is never a situation which justifies supplanting truth with a lie, even temporarily. At times, immediate pursuit of the truth may have negative consequences which necessitate its delay. However, there is simply no such thing as a situation which demands indefinite and eternal concealment. Ever.

That's your interpretation of what Erika was supposed to represent. To me, Ryuukishi's condescending tone and essay make me think otherwise.

You don't need to pick an extreme. You don't need to kill someone over a mistake, but you also don't need to forgive them.

Ryuukishi's lesson is flawed. He didn't show us any reason we should want to forgive other than him preaching that forgiveness is good. Why, we don't even know what we should forgive the culprit of!

What's his response to that?

"WITHOUT LOVE IT CANNOT BE SEEN!"

...Yes real mature Ryu.

Without getting in the nature of how valid his lesson might be, he just did it badly. Really badly. His fanbase loves to be trolled, which gives him a pass in being inconsistent.

Are we really having a "overall game impressions" discussion, or a mere debate over the intention of the author and whatnot?

I'm sorry, but at this point, I have to bring up again on the guideline I was insisting from the very beginning:

I do not expect people to wholeheartedly agree that the franchise was great or bad. However, it would be really better to just -drop- the discussion, when things turn into "it is YOUR interpretation", leading to just an escalating fruitless argument that leaves nothing but a circle discussion over a matter of personal tastes and whatnot.

It is getting extremely tiresome to keeping track with the threads, considering that most are being derailed by the same arguments over and over.

Continued via PM, although I fear that will destroy the openness of the discussion. Oh well.

Klashikari raises a very good point. There are other places for this discussion to take place, after all.

And I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion in a more appropriate location myself, either.

There are other places set up for those discussions, so let's take them there and be done with it.

Hm I think this would be the right thread to say this, sorry if it isn't.

I've been realizing I find Umineko's ending not to be very surprising of a Visual Novel in the end. In fact I still somehow find it less depressing an ending then most VNs I read.

It's true, depression and melodrama are common, but bear in mind that very happy endings are also pretty common. It's like a switch instead of a dial. You either get full-on depressing, bittersweet, or happy, and there are only a small handful of examples in between.

It might also appear that way simply because a lot of VNs have choices that lead to "bad" endings, which may not be bad but may be more of a downer than the "right" ones. Relatively few (but certainly not no) VNs have all endings roughly the same in tone.

Well I haven't really seen all out happy Visual Novels except dating sims or similar stories. Bad endings are fun cause they can be subjectively bad (School Days lol).

I'm thinking tho that Ryuukishi promised us a "bittersweet ending" while we got what is closer to a "depressing ending" (no matter how positive you can view Ange's final resolution it doesn't change that most people are dead and stays so). That might be hurting expectations a lot.

Still I see Beatrice more and more as Kinzo's Kaguya-Hime and somehow I'm not surprised to have the sort of story Umineko is in the end. Including the lack of moral resolution that you seem to dislike so much.

I think the saddest part of the ending is the fact that while Battler is still alive he became another person and doesn't even want to return to his older self, which means he can't be Ange's brother.

From one side it's comforting for Ange to know that Battler is alive and... (not so well actually...) but in the end her "Oniichan" didn't come back and never will.

It's very sad, but yes there's been sadder stuff.

Thing is I (and some others) referenced the Bittersweet ending as if it was synonymous with a Downer ending. And that turned out to mostly be the correct interpretation.

That's not true of actual bittersweet endings of course. It's supposed to be Bitter AND sweet, but I guess Umineko's ending was mostly bitter.

I...don't see a lot of sweetness. Unless you find it sweet that Ange fills the void in her life by providing a Beato-cult home for orphaned children.

I actually find that to be progressively greater degrees of creepy and sad.

I don't understand how you got from "writing a successful children's book series based on Mariage Sorciere and making some orphans happy" to "supporting a Beato cult".

Let me put it this way. How would you interpret that scene if I replaced Ange with J. K. Rowling and the Umineko cast with Harry Potter characters?

I don't find it particularly depressing, they are all reunited in the Golden Land in the end.

You know what's sad? I actually spent a half hour typing up a hilarious psychoanalysis parodying just how messed up Rowling would be psychologically if she constructed her own personal Hogwarts, and the multiple ways it could show something to be wrong with her.

But I took too long and the damn forum signed me out when I went to post it, and erased all my freacking effort. So you'll get nothing, and I'll get a great deal of frustration.

Aww. You can't get it back from your browser history?

Public computers don't allow me to access the browser history, since I lack administrative privileges, or something.

Whenever you write a long post it's a good idea to copy and paste all that you just wrote before pressing any button.

I finally found Trollkastel's Episode 8 uploads on youtube, so I was a biiiiit distracted, and then had a lapse in judgement.

Writing down the various songs to download later on my phone takes time, especially when listening through them all individually and deciding which are worth downloading (lixAxel and co.) and which are not (Ange's theme song).

I eagerly await the day I learn how to rip the music files from my copy of the game...

They just rebuilt a hall. She didn't actually rebuild the mansion and have kids live there. It's no more creepy than designing a mess room that looks like the gathering room at Hogwarts for a bunch of underprivileged kids.

Having a painting is no indication of a cult to someone's personality. It's just a decoration.