Total Eclipse - Mecha, Weapons, and Technology
As the title suggests, the purpose of this thread is to discuss Total Eclipse Mecha, Weapons, and Technology
This is a thread specific to the Total Eclipse story. Mecha, Weapons, and Technology from the wider Muv-Luv Franchise can be discussed in the Game & General Franchise Thread. If you will be discussing mecha/weapons/technology that have not yet appeared in the Total Eclipse anime you must use clearly-marked, properly-labelled spoiler tags. [spoiler=title]Don't forget to use a title to let everyone know what you're spoiling![/spoiler] Spoiler for title:
Be polite to your fellow forum members and try and keep the discussion on topic and above all, enjoy. |
With this scene
From ~0 m/s, F15 SE can move to ~16 m/s . http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l...Chobi_Rush.jpg |
That's no F-15SE, that's an F-15E.
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"F15 SE" is not really the ideal way to refer to a Strike Eagle, especially not when F-15SE already refers to a completely different Eagle variant. It just gets confusing. Call it an F-15E Strike Eagle for minimum confusion.
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Whats the difference between the blue shiranui and the red one that Yuuya is using in some magazine scans?
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The blue and white Shiranui is referred to as "Nine-Four Second", and serves as the testbed for the XFJ project. It begins life as a standard Shiranui Type-1C, which is then further modified with more powerful engines as a result of cross pollination from the ACTV Eagle.
A testbed aircraft is not a prototype; rather it is an aircraft that is modified to resemble the future prototype in certain respects, and is used for data collection and tests - hence testbed. The red and white Shiranui on the other hand, is the new Shiranui Niigata (Shiranui Type-2) prototype, which IIRC is a new airframe that incorporates the lessons learned from the 94 Second testbed. |
Ah I see... I though it had some special perk of some sort.
Thanks for the info. |
What is the MISSIP ENHANCEMENT MODULE of the Shiranui 2nd phase?
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It's actually MSIP, which stands for Multi-Stage Improvement Plan, which is a plan to turn the 94 Second testbed into the proper Shiranui Type-2. Among the improvements are more powerful engines, thruster blocks derived from the Active Eagle, improved sensors...
The final result, from the stage by stage improvements, eventually becomes the Type-04 Shiranui Niigata in IJA service. Like ATSF, it's in a flyoff competition against the F-15SE Silent Eagle. Unlike ATSF, the flyoff takes place during an assault into a BETA hive. |
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I forget, but regarding Japanese TSFs are they like Japanese warplanes of WWII in that they're very manueverable, but have little armor or anything?
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1st Gen TSFs were built on a solid fixed frame, which allowed for heavy tank like armor, and low mobility. Which was not a good idea against the BETA swarms. Future generations of TSF builds were more focused on mobility, and are more streamlined. Compound armor is used to reduce weight but give improved survivability to laser radiation, and mobility is emphasized to dodge the attacks. Do check out the wiki for more details. http://muvluv.wikia.com/wiki/Tactical_Surface_Fighter |
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"totally wrong" i cannot agree to that... |
I think its made to cause impact in the audience so they can feel the how powerless human are next to betas, beyond the point of techinicalities... That and the low budget. Its hard to find robot or scifi anime that show that kind of detail accurately. Its a show after all.
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I don't think its the low budget, but rather the 'creative' direction the director took... after all that talk about following the mechanics of the world as closely as possible since he is a fan... So the point which I was trying to make, is that the armor for TSFs after 1st gen is suppose to be better than what is shown against lasers. Against impacts on the other hand... ep13 is an example of plot armor... how the 'black knight' can still move with all that damage is not at the level of reality normally shown in Muv Luv... :frustrated: |
Viewers kinda expect lasers to be instant kill weapons, y'know. Coconut effect, it's called.
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It seems to me that a lot of liberties are taken from tech specs for the sake of drama.
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3-5 sec is still very fast you know, unless the mech supposed to be survived (manage to just brace it) there is no point to show they not suddenly destroyed from that.
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Ok, as an example of how the laser play should look like in 3D, based on the VNs, please look at this vid at the area above the wall from the 1.30 to 1.35 time. Those beams are a rather more accurate representation of laser class at work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...MRLw9auk#t=92s |
I see.
I think i get your point. While i may agree, it seems changing from that now will be hard, and also what Wild Goose said. It's more of a "plot mechanic" than lack of quality, it seems. And that game Must be released... Fast. |
Sure, its working as a plot mechanic to bring home to viewers that Lux = you're f**ked, but it also has the side effect of making people think that technology in Muv Luv never got around to having any defense against it (other than what is effectively, from the way the anime shows it, just some smoke screen which doesn't do anything at all), and that when anyone who has read the background talks about the 3 seconds rule, others say "nope, anime shows boom!"
Basically, because the directors thought "lasers should go PEW PEW", the ideas and hard research the people did on the background in the original works have gone up in a cloud of laser smoke...Not the first time this topic has come up either, there was another one with almost the same remarks from the time of episode 2... That is all I wish to say on this topic. I had hopes that the new director would change this part (the Lux holds a special place in my heart, along side the -15 mohs Destroyer Class Plushie), but it was not to be. |
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One thing i also noticed it was wrong: When the ep shows the lux firing their lasers (omg pew pew pew) The "cooldown" is not the correct one... i seem to have counted about 3 or 6 seconds (shoulb be 12 right?). |
IIRC, 12 seconds is the cooldown for Heavy Laser.
EDIT: Got it wrong. 12 seconds for Lux. 36 seconds for Magna Lux. Tho the problem with them is that they are NEVER alone. |
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There was a gif even,,, if you count individually.. Edit: Spoiler for image:
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A question which came up in light of episode 17:
Spoiler for TSF question:
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Good points, but I think one tidbit is not entirely accurate.
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The primary TSFs of Europe - F5-E/I/G Tornadoes (and French Mirage III) are based off export version of F-5A Freedom Fighter that was made by America and then licensed. Shiranui is not a strictly "Japanese" design either - internally, it was based off F-15J that its development team spirited away from the initial trial machines given to IJA. J-10 is already made from F-16, and Russian MiG-21s were essentially upgraded F-4s. In fact, rest of Soviet designs is generally suspected of being a rip-off from Americans. MiG-23 was vvvveeerrryyyy similar to F-5 (and it shows), as was MiG-25 and Su-27 to the F-14 (which makes sense, since Northrock, the F-14s creator, covertly helped Soviets with design of Su-27). Spoiler for For that one TSF:
So it's mostly everyone using American TSFs, with few unique, but very effective "native designs". War Economy, anyone? *lights cigar* |
The American TSF's are freakin useless against the BETA. Yes the stealth tech is cool and against other TSF's yes it has the advantage as show against the Chinese. I guess since the North America has not been invaded by the BETA yet the US is not taking it seriously hence not developing their TSF's to engage the BETA not exactly the best idea. Imo the Infinities can not claim to be the best until they survive their first encounter with the BETA. Till then im just going to look at this as another pissing contest between men and their machines.
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That's a gross misrepresentation of the results of the Advanced Tactical Surface Fighter project. ATSF was intended to create a next-generation TSF that would have improved anti-BETA performance as well as an additional edge against human opponents; General Ben Brugg, US Army, postulated that within decades BETA would be successfully eradicated, and after that a war over G-Elements would kick off; to maintain American superiority, the next generation TSF would need to surpass the F-15 Eagle's performance in both anti-BETA and anti-TSF combat.
Everyone keeps harping on about the F-22's stealth, and keeps forgetting that the YF-23, which was very good at combating BETA, had an identical level of stealth when compared to the YF-22. And it's even more shooty than other TSFs, being that it can deploy SIX assault rifles in Gun Sweeper configuration. Also, it should be pointed out that practically all TSFs in the world have some input from American TSFs; a great many soviet designs, for instance, are modified or derived from US TSFs, and the Su-27 was essentially jointly designed by Sufoni and Northrock. The J-10 is derived from the F-16, and the Taiwanese F-CK-1 is a development of the F-18. Hell, even the 100% Made In Japan Type-94 Shiranui was derived from the Type-89 Kagerou/F-15J. The F-15, F-16 and F-18 have acquitted themselves well on the battlefield. They are not regarded as useless against BETA. The F-22 exceeds the performance of the teen fighters. Do the math. |
The raptor is a monster tsf that can fight against other tsf with a ratio of 1:7
its so darn fast that you don't know what hit you until you're down. The stealth ability might sound useless against BETA but that is just an additional feature that makes the raptor scary against tsf battle but it doesn't change the fact that its a top tier tsf that is on par with takemikazuchi. Being able to battle other tsf with a ratio of 1 raptor to 7 tsf is no laughing matter. Imagine the BETA hordes that it can slaughter if it can even take on the the job of battling against 7 tsf. Plus just like what said before. US has different means of fighting than with Japan. Japan has their swords and like to rush in and take them down while the US will put holes in every part of your mech till your scrap in a safe distance. now that we are talking about the raptor it reminds me of major walken ;_; US and their stupid conspiracy. |
That maybe the case but speaking from a Military stand point. Thinking towards the next war after the BETA are defeated (if they win) can be unwise for so many reasons i dont even want to start. The current battlefield is what it is and i see stealth as a weapon to combat other TSF's. How do the BETA's ocular nerves work, what light spectrum do they see in there are tons of "what ifs" in regards to the BETA. Would the Raptors stealth counter the BETA's laser class. When one points out stealth i hardly find it a worthy discussion unless you address how an alien enemy (which no ones seems to know about) perceives light. It is important to think about the future of warfare however if ones does not win the current war then the advancements in technology were pointless. Also, the BETA continue to show different tactics which could render any type of stealth useless. The BETA seem to adapt when they are confronted with a new type of weapon. My point is these games are a waste of time and several characters have already stated it. The world is in very real danger and humanity is not winning not even close to winning. All efforts should be geared towards developing weapons and tactics to win the current war not the next one. It was also stated that the US has virtually not been touched by the BETA and that their TSF's pilots do not have a lot of combat experience against the BETA. The US could learn a thing or two from these passages
Sun Tzu says: -Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue -In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns. -There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. -Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle. |
the stealth ability of raptor is useless against BETA especially that BETA is attractive to the most advance in technology or machine. Raptor is especially delicious in the eyes of BETA with its tech but the point that we like to say is Raptor is strong though the stupid americans like to think far ahead after the defeat of BETA even though they are still there.
The beta to the eyes of this people are easy mode and attacks in linear suicidal that's why when BETA use tactics or strategy they are always surprised. They summed up beta as an alien of mystery and they are trying to find more about them in scientific way but in the eyes of politicians and military they are insignificant. That's why this world is messed up. Try not to find logic in their minds because from a perspective of a person from our world thrown into their world. They are crazy. The humanity is in brink of extinction and they only think of themselves and power, greed are running rampant in the higher ups. Trying to take down enemies which they aren't meant to fight with. Taking advantage of anything they can take. Look at the UN leader that blows their own base for the sake of getting that railgun technology. Sacrificing a unit just to prove your pilot is good? isn't that stupid and crazy? |
It depends, actually - the US Army and Air Force as a whole have very little experience against the BETA, with the exception of the survivors of the A-10 battalions that were deployed to Germany after the Oder-Niesse line fell and the BETA swarmed over the place. The Navy and Marine Corps, on the other hand, are a different matter; it's noted that the US carrier groups and Amphibious Ready Groups are patrolling all over the world and assisting wherever they can; part of the reason COSEAN is able to bottleneck the BETA is South Thailand is because the US and Australian navies are keeping Vietnam locked down and preventing the BETA from making a breakout by sea. Marine Amphibious Ready Groups are also forward deployed and are seeing plenty of action, particularly in Europe.
Coming back to your original point, however, your original point was that US TSFs are useless. I'm trying to point out that this isn't the case, because they are widely used, and are quite effective machines, and that the Raptor isn't useless - it's just that it hasn't been deployed in sufficient numbers to make a difference yet. I agree that General Brugg was too optimistic, way back in the late 80s, when he argued strongly for what became ATSF; nevertheless, to call the Raptor useless against BETA because of its stealth abilities and prioritization to fight humans is misleading, and not completely correct. The F-15 does very well against BETA; the Raptor exceeds its performance. That said, I agree that all things considered, the US is not focusing on the right things - but at this point, bureaucratic inertia means that there's no way to change ATSF. As for the BETA, in and outside universe speculation is that they home in on the silicon used in computers, which is why they assign higher targeting priority to smart weapons, compared to artillery shells. The problem is that the nations in Alternative, by and by, even when the world is ending, can't seem to just give it a fucking rest, and must engage in douchbaggery (La CIA, tovarisch chekist, I'm looking at you); it's just that America is more obvious. That said, the average American soldier on the ground doesn't give a shit about the politicking, and just wants to get shit done. |
As it was already pointed out, it's utterly ridiculous to claim that U.S designs are useless against the BETA...when almost 2/3 of all TSF designs in existence are based off the U.S technology and ideas. Never mind that the F-15 family is used by just about everyone and everywhere and it aquits itself quite well against the BETA. So does the F-16 and F-14s. In fact, if American TSFs were bad against the BETA (they're not), trust me, no one would buy them in a really big numbers. Or would want American assistance in designing a TSF.
Sure, they're not instant win button, but given that almost every other human technology consistently fails against the BETA... Also, people seem to have forgotten that for all it's worth, Shiranui Niigata is loaded with American technology. And as Tsunade points out, it's not like Raptor can't do anything without the stealth. Quite the opposite - it's such a beast because it slaps stealth on top of everything it has. Can it outmaneuver Takemikazuchi? Probably, check. Can it easily fight a close-combat type machine like French Rafale to a standstill with relatively little effort? Check. Is it faster and more maneuverable then anything else produced prior to it? Check and check and checkmate. Stealth was a big part of the ATSF, but even bigger requirement was to make something that was genuinely superior to any TSF that was ever built - and both F-22 and YF-23 do exactly that. Of course, political priorities are an entirely different thing - even if U.S did adopt God-knows-what for TSF, it would still never be deployed en masse against the BETA, as long the U.N, and mass of other, expandable countries like Soviet Union exist. And that's without saying that some of those countries would very much follow in USA's footprints had they had the ability and resources. That's also without saying that U.S factories remain fully operational, and life goes on completely normal in the U.S. They aren't at war - the rest of the world is, on behalf of the America. How much of a negative that is depends on personal standpoint. In other news, any thoughts on why the Northrock's rifle design (the one for the YF-23) was not adopted? |
I have a guess that it may have been too tied closely with the whole YF-23; remember it and the XCIWS blade were specifically designed for the Black Widow, so I figure there may be issues adapting it to other TSFs. And then once. YF-23 lost, everything associated with it was cast aside...
Other theory may be due to the ammo mix - apparently the board wasn't too keen on the XAMWS-24's reduction in 36mm for increased 120mm capacity. And then there's the whole fighting with bayonets thing... But that WOULD make it useful as a close range emergency weapon. |
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