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xris 2008-05-04 13:22

Spoiler Policy Q&A thread
 
We are going to implement the following Spoiler Policy here at AnimeSuki. If you have any questions concerning the new policy please refrain from posting in any of the discussion threads (since it may be off-topic or it may be a spoiler in itself), ask your question in this thread instead.

Quote:

Inappropriate spoilers are not welcome here at AnimeSuki Forums. A spoiler is anything that discloses an event, character, plot or other information before it is revealed within the specific work being discussed. Any post containing spoilers may be deleted in its entirety and an infraction will be issued to the poster. Repeated violations of this rule will lead to a ban.

Anything outside the scope of a topic is considered a spoiler. Check the thread's title and forum to determine what is allowed. For example, in an anime thread (e.g. threads in the Fansubbed forum), information from the manga, novels, or games would be considered a spoiler. In a thread about a specific episode of a show (in series-specific forums like the Naruto forum), information about future episodes would be considered a spoiler. In a thread about one show, information about a different show would be considered a spoiler (e.g. revealing Kanon's plot in a Clannad thread is a spoiler). So pay attention to the topic and forum. Restrict your discussion to the subject in question since anything else is a spoiler!

Exceptions:
Spoilers are permitted in limited circumstances, provided that they are posted under clearly marked spoiler tags. These exceptions include:
  • Posting and discussing content found on official sites or blogs.
  • Answering specific questions about past or current events using knowledge of the source material. (We strongly encourage posters to discuss any spoilers via PM, rather than in the work's discussion thread.)
  • Comparing events in an adaptation to the way they were presented in the source material or other adaptations. (Discussions about the source material itself, or extended comparisons should be directed to the appropriate manga/novel/game thread.)
  • Comparing one story to another, when such comparisons are useful or informative. (These spoiler tags must always be labeled with the name of the other work whose spoilers it contains.)
Please note that additional restrictions may apply in certain threads so consult the opening post of each thread for more information. If you have a question about whether something is considered a spoiler or if it is permitted under this policy, please refrain from posting in the discussion thread and either contact a moderator or ask your question in the Spoiler Policy Q&A thread.

Note regarding unsubbed "raw" anime episodes:
Because our forum is targeted primarily at fansub viewers, it is inconsiderate to openly discuss or post impressions of an episode before the fansubs are released, except in threads discussing that specific episode. So, when multiple raw and fansubbed episodes are being discussed in the same thread, please keep all discussion of unsubbed episodes behind clearly-marked spoiler tags. Discussing unsubbed anime is not a spoiler according to this policy, but please be considerate.
Adding a Spoiler tag:
Just highlight your spoiler and click the button found on the "Quick Reply" and "Reply to Thread" forms.
Make sure that you include a title that clearly identifies the specific source of the spoiler!

Please use the Report button if you see any spoilers:
Click the button found to the left of the post, just under the poster's avatar.
Using the Report button is anonymous and helps the Moderators locate and deal with problems quickly.

Note: Reporting a post does not mean the poster will be banned instantly, so you shouldn't feel bad about it. The moderators prefer not to use bans unless warnings are repeatedly ignored. Permanent bans only follow for habitual recidivists.

SeedFreedom 2008-05-04 14:12

Why cant we just trust people to have enough sense not to open spoiler tags when they are labeled spoilers?

I have a specific situation i wanted to ask about. in the Clannad thread, there is a discussion on the after story (the second season). Is it alright to mention things in the game about the after story there?

relentlessflame 2008-05-04 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom (Post 1575117)
Why cant we just trust people to have enough sense not to open spoiler tags when they are labeled spoilers?

If you ask me, I think one reason is because spoiler tags have become so commonly-used now that it's really hard to differentiate between the spoilers that you might want to read, and those you probably don't want to read. The other thing, though, is that we also consider spoilers from future source material to be off-topic. If you're talking about an anime, it isn't the right time or place to be like...

Spoiler for manga:
1) How is anyone supposed to know that you're going to what you're spoiling? 2) People who are just watching the anime probably don't want to know what's happening in manga chapter 8192. 3) Not everyone following the manga is at chapter 8192 either. We see this way more often than we care to count. In addition to being inconsiderate, we also consider it off-topic -- it hasn't happened in the anime and is clearly in the future, so let the anime reveal it in due course.

I guess you could say that all policies are created in response to a perceived need. The answer to the "why can't we just trust people" question probably lies in that statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom (Post 1575117)
I have a specific situation i wanted to ask about. in the Clannad thread, there is a discussion on the after story (the second season). Is it alright to mention things in the game about the after story there?

In this case, there's a thread for this express purpose called the Spoiler & Speculation thread. I suggest that would be the best spot for your question (though this is unchanged with this new spoiler policy).

SeedFreedom 2008-05-04 14:38

But then wouldn't that leave the Clannad after story thread to be just "OMG i cant wait!!!!11111oneoneone". Theres really no point in opening a thread early then if all spoilers are off limits.

relentlessflame 2008-05-04 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom (Post 1575152)
But then wouldn't that leave the Clannad after story thread to be just "OMG i cant wait!!!!11111oneoneone". Theres really no point in opening a thread early then if all spoilers are off limits.

People could certainly post their ideas and anticipation of what will be in the season, but questions about the game or posts that depend on game knowledge should either be directed to the Q&A thread or Spoiler & Speculation. This isn't something that changed recently though -- it's been like this since the forum was created. The new policy is, for the most part, dealing with threads that don't have a series-specific forum (like those in the Fansubbed and DVD & Licensed forums), and is mostly to make things more consistent.

Daniel E. 2008-05-04 15:07

Hope everyone gets the message.

I was spoiled big time in the Claymore section, all because manga readers wouldn't even bother with spoiler tags in the first place. :(

I can see something similar starting in the Soul Eater forum too. >_< !

KholdStare 2008-05-04 15:17

I just want a clarification that I hope is in my favor:

Quote:

Comparing one story to another, when such comparisons are useful or informative. (These spoiler tags must always be labeled with the name of the other work whose spoilers it contains.)
This means that I can compare Kanon's plot to Clannad's plot, if it's relevant in some way, correct? If I reveal Kanon's plot under a spoiler tag in a Clannad thread, I would hope that it is completely okay, because many good discussions include compare and contrasts to other series to further emphasize a certain point.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not talking about favoritism wars such as "which anime is more dramatic, Kanon or Clannad" within a certain thread, but more civilized discussions that don't go completely off-topic.

relentlessflame 2008-05-04 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by KholdStare (Post 1575215)
This means that I can compare Kanon's plot to Clannad's plot, if it's relevant in some way, correct? If I reveal Kanon's plot under a spoiler tag in a Clannad thread, I would hope that it is completely okay, because many good discussions include compare and contrasts to other series to further emphasize a certain point.

Yes, I think you're right. But the key things here are that:
  1. The entire comparison (not just the spoilerish parts) should be behind spoiler tags
  2. The spoiler tags should be clearly marked so that people know exactly what they should have watched before reading the paragraph
  3. As you emphasized yourself, it should be relevant and useful.

This would be a BAD example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAD example - DON'T DO THIS!
I think the way this is going it'll be like
Spoiler for kanon:
don't you think?

I'm sure anyone who's been around the forum for any length of time can remember far too many posts of this sort. :heh:

Please note also that certain threads may have additional restrictions about spoiler tags. Anime episode threads in particular tend to have more restrictions. So please be mindful of that.

But yes, that exception was intended to allow for relevant comparisons like that, so long as everyone knows exactly what to expect when they click on the spoiler tags.

Skyfall 2008-05-04 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by KholdStare (Post 1575215)
This means that I can compare Kanon's plot to Clannad's plot, if it's relevant in some way, correct? If I reveal Kanon's plot under a spoiler tag in a Clannad thread, I would hope that it is completely okay, because many good discussions include compare and contrasts to other series to further emphasize a certain point.

Thats correct - you are allowed to make such cross-series comparisons, as long as they are relevant and serve a point. Needless to say they must be concealed under properly labeled spoiler tags, so that people would have a clear understanding just what they are getting themselves in to.

Edit: beaten to it. *grumble*

SeedFreedom 2008-05-04 17:48

So shouldn't the emphasis be on using spoilers more correctly, than to say "no spoilers in anime threads ever". If you want to talk about what happens in the manga, then include chapter title to in the spoiler title. If you want to talk about the game, include what route. If you hate to be spoiled and are unsure, don't take the risk. This is just going to lead to more confusion and more arguments about what is bannable and who went over the blurry line.

Talking about future events aren't always off topic. There are conversations about what diverged from the source and how this will affect future events. Or talk about pacing about future events that were shuffled around.

SeijiSensei 2008-05-04 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom (Post 1575495)
So shouldn't the emphasis be on using spoilers more correctly, than to say "no spoilers in anime threads ever".

If anything, these rules just encourage more attention to using spoiler tags. I don't see anything banning spoilers per se as long as they're tagged.

Quote:

Talking about future events aren't always off topic. There are conversations about what diverged from the source and how this will affect future events. Or talk about pacing about future events that were shuffled around.
Personally that's exactly the stuff I don't want to see in an anime thread. I don't care whether it diverged from the source or how that might affect future developments in the anime. If you want to talk about the source, do it in a manga thread.

KholdStare 2008-05-04 18:15

Actually, I think that including "Be careful when opening spoiler tags" would be wise, since like relentlessflame said, many of us tend to just open spoiler tags like it's an automatic thing, and sometimes we should be reminded at the severity of some spoilers.

Daniel E. 2008-05-04 18:26

As a fan of image threads, I am fully aware that I am gonna be exposed to images from characters that may or may not show in the animated version at any given time.

What gets me a bit is when people starts to comment on said images. :(

Quote:

Who is she?
Quote:

What's her role in the story?
And on, and on...... >_< !

I mean, it's an image thread; Why discuss future events in such a place? :confused:

felix 2008-05-04 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame (Post 1575145)
If you ask me, I think one reason is because spoiler tags have become so commonly-used now that it's really hard to differentiate between the spoilers that you might want to read, and those you probably don't want to read.

Isn't it so much easier to just implement a HIDE tag. People wanting to just hide content is common place and it's just copy/paste and it's implemented! anyway. BTW as for spoilers in Image threads... wouldn't those threads be better merged with merchendise, events, and magazine stuff in one big thread? ;) (eg. XXX Images, Media & Merchandise [Spoilerific])

NightWish 2008-05-04 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cats (Post 1575627)
Isn't it so much easier to just implement a HIDE tag.

Yes, it is easy to do, but that does not mean it is the right thing to do :) We have considered this suggestion before (the last time you made it ;)) but decided not to adopt it as yet. We would prefer people used thumbnails or links in preference to "hiding" content under any sort of tag, unless the content is actually a spoiler, in which case the semantics of "spoiler" are correct and desirable.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cats (Post 1575627)
BTW as for spoilers in Image threads... wouldn't those threads be better merged with merchendise, events, and magazine stuff in one big thread? ;) (eg. XXX Images, Media & Merchandise [Spoilerific])

No. The threads serve different purposes, merging them simply because they both might have spoilers would be silly.

SeijiSensei 2008-05-04 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWish (Post 1575648)
Yes, it is easy to do, but that does not mean it is the right thing to do :) We have considered this suggestion before (the last time you made it ;)) but decided not to adopt it as yet. We would prefer people used thumbnails or links in preference to "hiding" content under any sort of tag, unless the content is actually a spoiler, in which case the semantics of "spoiler" are correct and desirable.

So what is your preference for handling large blocks of text like this one that have only marginal pertinence to the show but are relevant to the issues raised in the thread? I'd like to have another option to hide long blocks of text like this so they don't interfere with the flow of the dialog in the thread. I typically use spoilers for this purpose since there isn't any other alternative. Like Cats, I think it would be helpful to have another kind of tag that hides material in a thread without marking it as a "spoiler."

By your use of "links" are you suggesting that I post the information as an HTML document somewhere else and link to it? That's not really an option for many people here. Or, are you focusing more specifically on graphics that can be stored on image sites? I realize that "hiding" a graphic inside a spoiler tag does no such thing, but hiding text can make sense in many cases.

Aoie_Emesai 2008-05-04 20:56

edited for Nosanninwa

This new policy *might* be getting me *a* infractions >.<

I do hope users label their information in spoilers properly now.

NoSanninWa 2008-05-04 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWish (Post 1575648)
Yes, it is easy to do, but that does not mean it is the right thing to do :) We have considered this suggestion before (the last time you made it ;)) but decided not to adopt it as yet. We would prefer people used thumbnails or links in preference to "hiding" content under any sort of tag, unless the content is actually a spoiler, in which case the semantics of "spoiler" are correct and desirable.

I certainly agree that thumbnails are preferable to hiding large images, but what about the case when someone is posting 50+ thumbnails in a single post of an image thread? (That's not remotely hypothetical.) All of a sudden I want to see thumbnails behind hide tags to keep them from taking over the page.

Of course, I agree that instituting a hide tag would encourage people to use it instead of thumbnails for the reason that they figure we must mean it to be used that way if we bothered to create a whole tag for it. And I can't believe we're discussing this, instead of actually talking about the effect of a spoiler policy. It is unfortunate that this is relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai (Post 1575807)
This new policy is gonna be getting me a few infractions >.<

I do hope users label their information in spoilers properly now.

Example please! What in particular will catch you? The need for a title?

KholdStare 2008-05-04 22:12

All I'm hoping is for this rule to punish posts starting now, because I might have broken the rule in earlier posts that I probably won't refer to ever again. One issue that may come up is there will be more usage of spoiler tags, which could or could not be a good thing, depending on the thread.

White Manju Bun 2008-05-05 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom (Post 1575495)
Talking about future events aren't always off topic. There are conversations about what diverged from the source and how this will affect future events. Or talk about pacing about future events that were shuffled around.

Good point, this is currently happening in a thread. My own personal opinion is manga readers may talk about what changed in the anime because its the anime they are currently watching. Of course I agree with SejiSensei in that if it gets horribly off-topic then take it to the manga thread but Im usually pretty interested in what studios change so talking manga/anime differences dont bother me as long as any manga talk is relevant to that particular episode, is tagged properly and isnt a unwanted spoiler.

Im hoping with this people will start tagging properly and not just writing stuff like "manga" or "stuff from manga" get alittle more specific so members will known whether or not they want to click it or not.

KholdStare 2008-05-05 03:23

I think the issue The Small One put forth was addressed somewhere in the past, and that if you see a spoiler, then report it, but don't reply to say that it is a spoiler, because then you would be confirming the spoiler to those who doesn't know yet that it's a spoiler. The problem remains with how harmless the guess is (and if it really is a guess and not just someone trolling for spoilers).

I'm against punishing people putting suggestions inside spoiler tags, as long as they mark is correctly. Let's say that I posted this:

Spoiler for my guesses on what will happen:


It is up to the reader to realize that this is a guess, and we're not here to babysit everyone through the forums. What I'm saying is, the words "people may believe" will have to be coupled with "people should use their common sense."

I also don't have a problem with using spoiler tags to hide big text or pictures, since it's just courtesy, and we shouldn't be punished for courtesy. Why should stuff like
Spoiler for lots of text:
or
Spoiler for big picture:
not be allowed? What if I want to quote a very long post, which others might quote again and again? People usually put them in spoiler tags, because they just want to show that they're quoting this particular post, and if the reader needs further clarification of what was quoted, they can show the spoiler.

All in all, you're trying to change things that just cause inconvenience for everyone, because what good will it do to restrict the use of spoiler tags? If you don't like them, don't use them. Just like how everyone is free to scroll down, everyone is free to put what they want inside a spoiler tag if they mark them accordingly.

EDIT: And if your problem is not knowing if there's really a spoiler or if there's big text/guesses hiding under the spoiler, then go ahead and punish people who don't mark their spoiler tags or do so incorrectly, but don't screw up spoiler tags for the rest of us.

Solace 2008-05-05 06:23

The rules are well meaning but they fight a losing battle. Only a naive person will come to a discussion about the topic they are interested in and not expect to be spoiled in some way. The very nature of a worldwide forum that discusses fansubbed material creates a place where there is going to be someone who knows something will happen before others do. It's that persons responsibility to keep the impulses to discuss such things in check, but deciding when and where the place is to speak or hold back is a slippery slope.

I actually find most Animesuki series discussion to be largely civil. There are exceptions from time to time from people who can't be bothered to think before they post, but spoilers abound specifically because people are excited about discussing their favorite shows and everything about them.

For the most part people keep things tagged, and the only real fault is that unmarked or poorly marked spoilers can be misleading. On the other hand, they are spoilers....so if you don't wish to risk being spoiled, don't click them. It's why the tag exists in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei
Personally that's exactly the stuff I don't want to see in an anime thread. I don't care whether it diverged from the source or how that might affect future developments in the anime. If you want to talk about the source, do it in a manga thread.

Sorry, I don't agree. That's inconsiderate to think that anime threads should hold some special protected status that manga or game threads should be exempt from. What about stories where the anime is different from the manga? Is it fair that discussion about comparisons could potentially spoiler one group of people but not another?

In subforums it might be easier to split discussions into threads but for many of our series, we only get one thread for anime, then we have to go to a completely different place for other sources. Crossing wires can and does happen, regardless of how some feel.

To use a somewhat crude analogy, this discussion reminds me of safe sex vs abstinence. It doesn't matter how good the protection is, there's still a risk. The only way to ensure a risk free experience is to never participate in the first place. Avoid the temptation and you'll never have a problem, but if you decide to play around, it's inevitable that you'll get burned.

Ledgem 2008-05-05 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solace (Post 1576589)
It doesn't matter how good the protection is, there's still a risk. The only way to ensure a risk free experience is to never participate in the first place.

Or to only have a single partner :p (Just kidding - I agree with all of your post, aside from that part of the analogy)

I was curious as to why this is necessary, as I thought that we always had some sort of rule about this. I found a fair bit of it to be confusing and a bit frightening, as well. I know that we're not politicians here, but saying "anything outside the scope of a topic will be considered a spoiler" is something that would be ripe for abuse. We all know what spoilers are and we all know what that's supposed to mean but I started wondering if any posts that start to go off-topic could lead to punishment, with a moderator pointing to the spoiler policy as justification.

I also became confused as to when spoiler tags are appropriate. For example, the "Gundam Seed Trilogy?" thread is a thread based around wondering if there will be a third part to the Gundam SEED franchise. A good amount of the thread was dedicated to rehashing the events of Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny, analyzing, speculating - in short, doing everything that fans like to do. Everyone actively participating had clearly seen both SEED and SEED Destiny, and the entire conversation was based on what would be spoilers to someone who hadn't seen both series fully through. Would it be expected that you use spoiler tags in those cases? If the answer is yes, then do you realize that any discussion of events after (or perhaps even including) the first episode of a series would need to be put into spoiler tags? I don't really have an opinion as to whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing, personally.

KholdStare 2008-05-05 11:36

Here's the problem. On one side, if you don't use spoiler tags correctly, then mods hunt you down and give you infractions. On the other side, we have people like The Small One who condemns using spoiler tags excessively. I don't want to spend 15 minutes posting thinking about whether or not to use a spoiler tag or how I should mark them. Regarding to what Ledgem said, it's logical for the entire thread to be spoiler-tag free, but what if people want to be courteous? There's nothing wrong with too many spoiler tags in that case. It's just a simple extra click to reveal a spoiler, not the screen blacking out and Vista asking you for the administrator's password to view a spoiler.

relentlessflame 2008-05-05 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solace (Post 1576589)
To use a somewhat crude analogy, this discussion reminds me of safe sex vs abstinence. It doesn't matter how good the protection is, there's still a risk. The only way to ensure a risk free experience is to never participate in the first place. Avoid the temptation and you'll never have a problem, but if you decide to play around, it's inevitable that you'll get burned.

Well, this is for sure, but the argument is the same: people are going to do it anyway, so better to try to reduce the risk, even if you can't eliminate it. The purpose of the new policy is to try to increase the level of understanding of what is and isn't considered acceptable. The unstated but obvious by-product of having such a policy is that those who can't abide by these rules will receive warnings, infractions, and possibly bans. Nobody wants to be spoiled, but this is the Internet, and there is a certain sense of inevitability about it. All we can do is try to reduce the risk and, when it does happen, try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solace (Post 1576589)
Sorry, I don't agree. That's inconsiderate to think that anime threads should hold some special protected status that manga or game threads should be exempt from. What about stories where the anime is different from the manga? Is it fair that discussion about comparisons could potentially spoiler one group of people but not another?

If I'm understanding your point correctly, I believe this is addressed in the policy as written.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ledgem (Post 1576994)
I also became confused as to when spoiler tags are appropriate. For example, the "Gundam Seed Trilogy?" thread is a thread based around wondering if there will be a third part to the Gundam SEED franchise. A good amount of the thread was dedicated to rehashing the events of Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny, analyzing, speculating - in short, doing everything that fans like to do. Everyone actively participating had clearly seen both SEED and SEED Destiny, and the entire conversation was based on what would be spoilers to someone who hadn't seen both series fully through. Would it be expected that you use spoiler tags in those cases? If the answer is yes, then do you realize that any discussion of events after (or perhaps even including) the first episode of a series would need to be put into spoiler tags? I don't really have an opinion as to whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing, personally.

The key here is future events. Because both Gundam Seed and Gundam Seed Destiny are on topic in the thread, and both shows have been fully released on DVD, those participating in the thread at this point can be expected to have seen the whole show. Perhaps we can put something in the first post to that effect. No spoiler tags would be required in that thread, except if you were comparing to some off-topic example (like some other Gundam series, for example).
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoiler Policy
A spoiler is anything that discloses an event, character, plot or other information before it is revealed within the specific work being discussed. (emphasis mine ~rf)

This is the same principle that applies basically everywhere else on the forum. When the English version of an episode is released, discussing it is no longer considered a spoiler in threads where that show is on-topic. Yes, it's certainly quite possible that some innocent bystandard who's never seen the show in question will waltz into the thread, read the latest posts, and be spoiled, but I think it should only take one or two experiences like that to realize that "hey, maybe I shouldn't do that..." No matter how good a spoiler policy we create, we can't save people from themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KholdStare (Post 1577006)
Here's the problem. On one side, if you don't use spoiler tags correctly, then mods hunt you down and give you infractions. On the other side, we have people like The Small One who condemns using spoiler tags excessively. I don't want to spend 15 minutes posting thinking about whether or not to use a spoiler tag or how I should mark them. Regarding to what Ledgem said, it's logical for the entire thread to be spoiler-tag free, but what if people want to be courteous? There's nothing wrong with too many spoiler tags in that case. It's just a simple extra click to reveal a spoiler, not the screen blacking out and Vista asking you for the administrator's password to view a spoiler.

I agree with your argument in general. For my own personal posts, I always take the cautious approach and, if in doubt, I'd rather use clearly-marked spoiler tags than not use them. I don't think I would ever, as a mod, issue an infraction for using a clearly-marked spoiler tag that was unneeded. If anything, I would just edit out the spoiler tags, and maybe issue a warning if it became a habit that was never fixed (i.e. people shouldn't just start enclosing every single post inside spoiler tags to play it safe!). The big problems (IMO) are poorly marked tags, not using tags in the first place, and revealing future events from the source material that should be kept secret.

4Tran 2008-05-05 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solace
The rules are well meaning but they fight a losing battle. Only a naive person will come to a discussion about the topic they are interested in and not expect to be spoiled in some way. The very nature of a worldwide forum that discusses fansubbed material creates a place where there is going to be someone who knows something will happen before others do. It's that persons responsibility to keep the impulses to discuss such things in check, but deciding when and where the place is to speak or hold back is a slippery slope.

You may be correct, but the spoiler policy's goal isn't to eradicate all inadvertent spoilers - it's to let people know what the proper places to discuss certain material is, and to apply that uniformly to all of AnimeSuki. It's really more to clarify existing policies than it is to create new ones altogether, and I hope that there's less of a slippery-slope problem because of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ledgem (Post 1576994)
]I was curious as to why this is necessary, as I thought that we always had some sort of rule about this. I found a fair bit of it to be confusing and a bit frightening, as well. I know that we're not politicians here, but saying "anything outside the scope of a topic will be considered a spoiler" is something that would be ripe for abuse. We all know what spoilers are and we all know what that's supposed to mean but I started wondering if any posts that start to go off-topic could lead to punishment, with a moderator pointing to the spoiler policy as justification.

The reason for setting up a universal FAQ for spoilers like this is mostly to set up a more uniform rule rather than have them vary based on which subforum/thread it happens to be in. As you pointed out, most of this has already been enforced; we're just hoping that putting in one place like this will lessen the confusion of what is and isn't allowed.

The goal of the spoiler policy is what it always has been: to keep readers from getting stories ruined for them by inconsiderate posters. Overly off-topic thread drift will be treated as it always has been, and the new policy will only apply when such drift meanders into spoiling stories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ledgem (Post 1576994)
I also became confused as to when spoiler tags are appropriate. For example, the "Gundam Seed Trilogy?" thread is a thread based around wondering if there will be a third part to the Gundam SEED franchise. A good amount of the thread was dedicated to rehashing the events of Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny, analyzing, speculating - in short, doing everything that fans like to do. Everyone actively participating had clearly seen both SEED and SEED Destiny, and the entire conversation was based on what would be spoilers to someone who hadn't seen both series fully through. Would it be expected that you use spoiler tags in those cases? If the answer is yes, then do you realize that any discussion of events after (or perhaps even including) the first episode of a series would need to be put into spoiler tags? I don't really have an opinion as to whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing, personally.

To expand on relentlessflame's reply, this issue is covered by the scope of the topic:
Quote:

Anything outside the scope of a topic is considered a spoiler. Check the thread's title and forum to determine what is allowed. For example, in an anime thread (e.g. threads in the Fansubbed forum), information from the manga, novels, or games would be considered a spoiler.
In the example you provided, it's sort of implicit that the material covered in the thread would pertain to the entirety of the contents of Gundam Seed and Gundam Seed Destiny. Therefore, spoiler tags aren't necessary when talking about these two shows. However, it isn't so implicit that the discussion will be about the Seed sidestories, so spoiler tags would be expected for them.

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Originally Posted by KholdStare (Post 1577006)
Here's the problem. On one side, if you don't use spoiler tags correctly, then mods hunt you down and give you infractions. On the other side, we have people like The Small One who condemns using spoiler tags excessively. I don't want to spend 15 minutes posting thinking about whether or not to use a spoiler tag or how I should mark them. Regarding to what Ledgem said, it's logical for the entire thread to be spoiler-tag free, but what if people want to be courteous? There's nothing wrong with too many spoiler tags in that case. It's just a simple extra click to reveal a spoiler, not the screen blacking out and Vista asking you for the administrator's password to view a spoiler.

I can't recall a single time that a warning or infraction has been given for over-using spoiler tags. The only times that it's even an issue has always been for other reasons: inappropriate content, over-large images and the like. The sole exception to this is that spoiler tags aren't allowed in a signature. (Well, there is a problem with inadequately labeled spoiler tags, but that's sort of a different issue)

KholdStare 2008-05-05 12:38

Well that's something new I learned. I've seen spoiler tags in several signatures (which I may or may not conveniently recall) so I thought it was okay.

Ledgem 2008-05-05 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Small One (Post 1577510)
...because that's exactly what's going to happen!
If I may get a punishment for posting an unmarked spoiler, but posting something, that isn't a spoiler inside a spoiler tag, doesn't get any negative reactions, then the logical conclusion would be to simply use the Spoiler-tags always, because then you would never get banned.

Have you really been banned before, TSO? :p I think maybe we super-old users get uppity about this because it's almost insulting to receive an infraction when you've been here for so long and are just doing what you've always done, and never had a problem before. The only two infractions I have were handed to me within the last two years, for example (and the first one was totally unjustified - any tech user can back me on that, and I still get a bit miffed every time I see it in my account). Hearing that even upstanding members like Vexx get a few infractions doesn't make it feel quite as bad, but it's never pleasant.

The rules aren't as ambiguous to me now, but I'd request that the moderators be a bit merciful about these things. In the example I pointed out (which 4Tran responded to), I disagree on two points: First, technically speaking nearly all of the discussion in that thread is off-topic and should be spoiler'd. The thread topic suggests discussion about news of a third installment, not series analysis of the previous two series. You and I are both in agreement in thinking that that everyone in that thread is advancing to it after having seen the previous two series, but is that a fair assumption to make? Would a moderator unfamiliar with the series or Gundam universe be able to make that same judgement? That leads to the second point: why would it be OK to discuss the previous two series, but not their side stories? (I presume this refers to Astray and the Stargazer OVA, but I haven't viewed those for myself.) It just feels like there's too much ambiguity there. It doesn't help that a lot of people make horribly vague topics.

The only thing that seems fairly obvious is that, using that thread as an example again, discussion of any non-Gundam SEED series, including other Gundam series, should be put into spoilers. But even then, I'm saying that as someone who hasn't been following Gundam since before SEED - the die-hard Gundam fans probably view each series as a chronological addition to the franchise. I'm guessing that other anime discussion threads would also have situations similar to these.

Daniel E. 2008-05-05 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Tran (Post 1577088)
You may be correct, but the spoiler policy's goal isn't to eradicate all inadvertent spoilers - it's to let people know what the proper places to discuss certain material is, and to apply that uniformly to all of AnimeSuki.

Amen to this.

I dont think it's naive to expect a bit of common sense from others. If you are posting on the episode 7 thread of an anime that is bound to run for 26, you have no need whatsoever to discuss/post about events that could potentially describe the ending of the show in question.

Vexx 2008-05-05 18:01

Hmmm, didn't notice the new policy til just now when someone was asking about spoilers within an unsubbed episode (Soul Eater) (which is also MFI but thats a different topic).

"except in threads discussing that specific episode." helps clear up that issue about "has a sub been released yet".

This is a nice clarification except that "the usual idiots" will not read it just as they don't tend to read the regular rule section until slapped repeatedly :)

relentlessflame 2008-05-05 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Small One (Post 1577510)
...because that's exactly what's going to happen!
If I may get a punishment for posting an unmarked spoiler, but posting something, that isn't a spoiler inside a spoiler tag, doesn't get any negative reactions, then the logical conclusion would be to simply use the Spoiler-tags always, because then you would never get banned.

...If you see someone doing this on a continual basis, please report it. It is true that the over-use of spoiler tags is part of the problem too, and one that we hope this policy will help resolve in time. By making it more obvious what is a spoiler, it becomes more obvious what is not. It'll take time to get everyone re-calibrated, though, so please be patient. Do point out any flagrant abuse, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ledgem (Post 1577536)
You and I are both in agreement in thinking that that everyone in that thread is advancing to it after having seen the previous two series, but is that a fair assumption to make? Would a moderator unfamiliar with the series or Gundam universe be able to make that same judgement? That leads to the second point: why would it be OK to discuss the previous two series, but not their side stories? (I presume this refers to Astray and the Stargazer OVA, but I haven't viewed those for myself.) It just feels like there's too much ambiguity there. It doesn't help that a lot of people make horribly vague topics.

If there's ambiguity, let's come up with an agreement and post it in the first post of the thread so that there's no misunderstanding. I'm all for straightening out ambiguity and getting things in writing so that everyone knows exactly what to expect. While there will always be a certain degree of judgement involved, my personal philosophy is: no surprises. That goes both for users and moderators alike -- if the rules are clear, people less familiar with the series are less likely to make a mistake, and if they do make a mistake, it's more likely to be rectified. These whole idea of reducing ambiguity is the whole reason why I (and many of the other mods) have been working on developing this policy. In the end, it should make all of our lives easier, but let's continue to work on eliminating the ambiguities that remain.

I can say that, if it's possible, mods generally try to avoid handing out spoiler-related infractions for series they're not familiar with. I've seen many a reported post from other moderators saying "I think this may be a spoiler, but could someone who's familiar with the series check?" So, generally speaking, this is already something we do try to be careful about.

And I would also say, sometimes people put too much weight on infractions. They sound really ominous (and the structure of the form-letter doesn't help!), but they're like parking tickets, or maybe speeding tickets if you prefer. They're not generally something to lose sleep over.

KholdStare 2008-05-05 18:31

I'm generally cautious, so if I feel like I might get an infraction, I put it in a spoiler tag, so don't tell me I might get into trouble for using spoiler tags. However, I don't think anyone here even came anywhere close to putting all of their posts into spoiler tags, so we shouldn't even worry about that. Let's take the Higurashi threads, in which 75% of the posts there are in spoiler tags. Now logically, why would you? However, it's one of those series where if someone can interpret something that could be slightly related to something similar to a spoiler, it could ruin the series for another, so it's only a courtesy for someone to post his or her analysis inside of a spoiler tag. Simply put, I don't want to ever be worrying about being punished for using too many spoiler tags, period, regardless of the situation. This is a forum, not a Nazi concentration camp.

Vexx 2008-05-05 18:37

I don't think "too many" is as much of an issue as "so poorly labeled they should be slapped on general principles".

I can't say I wouldn't *like* a HIDE tag for some of my more wordy posts... :)

SeijiSensei 2008-05-05 19:17

I tagged two items today that I probably would not have tagged before:

Spoiler for Kurenai/Monster comparison with further spoiling commentary:

Here's an example of more "casual" spoilage from a posting in the Suggestions thread:

Spoiler about romance in Saiunkoku Monogatarai

I've written about SaiMono many times and probably expressed a similar observation outside tags from time to time. While I think I'm usually careful about spoilage, the announced policy has made me aware of casual spoilage examples like this one.

After consideration, I think both these items should be tagged. It actually made it easier to write both comments, especially the first.

relentlessflame 2008-05-05 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx (Post 1577698)
I don't think "too many" is as much of an issue as "so poorly labeled they should be slapped on general principles".

Yeah, sadly, you got it... :heh:

KholdStare, I wouldn't worry about it. As far as I'm aware, not a single mod or admin has suggested legislating spoiler use by punishing the use of tags. The purpose of the spoiler policy is simply to prevent people from being spoiled, and the way the policy proposes to accomplish it is by: (1) encouraging the use of spoiler tags, (2) getting people to label their spoiler correctly, and (3) getting people to not post series-ruining source-material spoilers in the first place. We hope that reducing the over-use of spoiler tags may naturally follow once people get a better understand what is and isn't considered a spoiler, but no one's going to implement it in that way. No one's going to issue an infraction that says "According to Spoiler Policy ASF 51842:2008 revision B clause 2.3.46.2 (a), that technically wasn't a spoiler. You may have thought it was covered under clause 4.2.1.51 (q), but you were wrong. Enjoy your ban!" Well, actually, if I ever saw an infraction exactly like that one, I'd probably laugh... but no, anyway, don't worry.

4Tran 2008-05-05 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ledgem (Post 1577536)
The rules aren't as ambiguous to me now, but I'd request that the moderators be a bit merciful about these things.

I think that if you go over your infractions, you'll find that they're probably warnings rather than full-blown infractions. Warnings are exactly as they sound - to let you know when you've stepped over the bounds without any actual punishment attached to them. They serve as a way to let us be merciful and to curb errant behavior at the same time. If you have any issue with either warnings or infractions, you should check out the Infraction FAQ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ledgem (Post 1577536)
In the example I pointed out (which 4Tran responded to), I disagree on two points: First, technically speaking nearly all of the discussion in that thread is off-topic and should be spoiler'd. The thread topic suggests discussion about news of a third installment, not series analysis of the previous two series. You and I are both in agreement in thinking that that everyone in that thread is advancing to it after having seen the previous two series, but is that a fair assumption to make? Would a moderator unfamiliar with the series or Gundam universe be able to make that same judgement?

What you pointed out is precisely why we generally divide moderation tasks so that the person making the judgement is familiar with the particular work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ledgem (Post 1577536)
That leads to the second point: why would it be OK to discuss the previous two series, but not their side stories? (I presume this refers to Astray and the Stargazer OVA, but I haven't viewed those for myself.) It just feels like there's too much ambiguity there. It doesn't help that a lot of people make horribly vague topics.

On the subject of vague topics, I'm in hearty agreement.

I think that a good rule-of-thumb for judging what should and shouldn't be spoiler-tagged is best determined by who is supposed to participate in the thread in question. If it's an anime thread, then we can make the assumption that all the posters are caught up to the latest fansubbed episode. If it's a speculation thread, then the assumption is that all the posters have already watched/read enough of the work in question to make some meaningful contribution.

In the case of the Gundam Trilogy thread, while its original purpose may have been a little different, it effectively fulfills the role of a speculation thread on what a third show may entail. As such, it's pretty much automatic that any discussion therein will entail talking about the endings of the other two shows. Any one who hasn't already watched those two shows should know what they're getting themselves into. However, knowledge of the side-stories shouldn't be necessary to participate in this discussion, so any mention of them should be spoiler-tagged.

Seditary 2008-05-05 20:27

It just basically seems to me to be giving written weight to normal common sense, unfortunately as most are aware, there are many people without any common sense whatsoever, and common sense varies from person to person.

It will eventually filter down to the community over time what they specifically consider acceptable or not as situations occur and are dealt with.

I hope people don't see the new policy and decide to 'test' it and the mods out by seeing what they can get away with without getting in trouble, just go about your normal forum life while keeping the revised guidelines in mind.

Kristen 2008-05-05 20:50

I have a question that's been bothering me for a while about spoilers from before an episode is fansubbed. In the case of show that are liscenced, at what time is it appropriate to talk without a spoiler? Is it any time after it airs, after the fansubs appear (Even though ASuki basically treats them like they don't exist for ethical reasons), after the show is released dubbed, or after a certain amount of time?

relentlessflame 2008-05-05 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrissieXD (Post 1577847)
I have a question that's been bothering me for a while about spoilers from before an episode is fansubbed. In the case of show that are liscenced, at what time is it appropriate to talk without a spoiler? Is it any time after it airs, after the fansubs appear (Even though ASuki basically treats them like they don't exist for ethical reasons), after the show is released dubbed, or after a certain amount of time?

I suppose the best answer is probably "use your best judgement"? Putting raw discussion behind spoiler tags is a recommendation in the current policy, and it's a courtesy for those who don't watch raws. Those actively participating in the discussion will presumably be watching the show somehow, so it would make sense to generally follow that same sort of timing. If you're discussing the raw as it comes out, it's considerate to put it behind spoiler tags.

Hope that basically answers the question...

WanderingKnight 2008-05-06 02:38

Ehm, I think the whole discussion can be brought down to one thing: Common sense. Something that apparently many people lack. My eyes are still sore with all the Claymore spoilage around (they went almost blind by the Naruto-like downwards spiral the quality of the discussion took afterwards, but that's another issue altogether, and one that seems to plague every popular shounen show (WHY COULD THAT BE??)).

Look, it's not the manga thread, get your manga discussion to the proper place, or at least have the decency to wrap it in a damn spoiler. I'm one of those people who don't like reading manga on a PC monitor and thus it's kinda hard for me to catch up on all the scalations around, and it bugs me to no end when I see pages and pages of manga discussion, or even entire pages wrapped in spoiler tags discussing the manga! Just go to the proper thread already.

I mean, it's not too hard. Then again, I'm one of those people who would prefer to have less written rules and more common sense, sort of like a silent agreement between intelligent people, but what the heck.

Quote:

Alternatively we could say, that opinions and guesses should also be put inside spoiler-tags. But then you probably won't find a post without it anymore.
The day I get an infraction for posting something on the lines of "I wonder if X character will end up with Y character...?" without a spoiler tag will be the day I leave AS :)


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