Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Military and Government Discussion Thread
Given that the universe of Mobile Suit Gundam 00 seems to be more politically charged than any other series (except possibly UC), I think a seperate thread would be appropriate.
Welcome to Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Military and Government discussion thread. This thread is a place where you can discuss Military and Government related questions and issues in Anno Domini such as the authority within Celestial Being and the three superpowers, their military system, chain of command, etc ... On a final note - This is a discussion thread, meaning that people are bound to disagree with you. Please be polite to your fellow members, and treat each other with mutual respect. Keep the discussion on topic, and above all - enjoy! |
PS: I hope this isn't a warnable offense or anything >_>
I'll be making a map soon, to be edited to this post. Current World Powers (Based on 4Trans' thoughts) http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h201/jin0014/HRL.jpg Human Reform League Formed mostly of the union of China, India, and Asiatic Russia, it also controls most of the rest of Asia and Pacifica. - They have completed their own orbital elevator, and are seemingly on par with the Union economically, militarily, and technologically. - Government is seemingly controlled by the Chinese. - Both name and flag give off blatantly communistic vibes. (The Swiss Cheese anvil is sort of silly, and a hammer and sickle design would have been cooler.) - Is likely to control half of the world's population. http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...0014/Union.jpg Union of Solar Energy and Free Nations Composed of all nations of North and South Americas, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan (with the possible exception of Tokyo). - They have completed their own orbital elevator, and are seemingly on par with the HRL economically, militarily, and technologically. - Government is supposedly a federation with the main decision-making body composed of a representative of each nation, but it appears as though the decisions made by the American President are more important. - The constituent countries have to authority to maintain an independent military (or militia). - For some reason, it's newest line mobile suit is named after the symbol of an AEU country. http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h201/jin0014/AEU.jpg Advanced European Union Composed of all nations of Europe (except for Moralia, as far as we know), Turkey, and European Russia. - Easily the most redundant name of all the power blocs. - They have yet to complete their orbital elevator, so it can be assumed that they trail the other power blocs economically and technologically. - Only power bloc to be seen to work under the imposition of a weapons limitation treaty, so they are likely the weakest militarily as well. - Bloc-wide decisions are made up of a five-member body, presumably the representatives of five different countries. It's very likely that Britain and France are represented here, with the rest of members being German, Italian, and Russian (basically the European members of the G8). Even though this body seems to find it important to present a unified front to the rest of the world, the members tend to act out of the interest of their own country even if this isn't necessarily in the interest of the bloc as a whole. - Curiously, their flag is a modified NATO flag. (A modified EU flag would probably have been a better choice.) |
Actually, the way the government is setup does not surprise me at all in Gundam 00.
In fact, its happening today. We've already got the EU, and although a real European Army has yet to emerge, there IS a somewhat centralized European Defense Community, which mainly acts through its Common Foreign and Security Policy. In addition, splinter groups, such as the EUFOR, Eurocorps and others are a result of the European Defense Community. Although keep in mind that not all European countries are participants of this program. As for the Reform League, its also hardly surprising. Sino-Russian relationships are in their warmest stages yet. With Chinese economy on the rise, Russia became almost the sole exporter of Chinese military equipment, and it is also due to Chinese economy that Russian arms manufacturers are able to keep operating their business. In the case of the Reform League however, it is not difficult to recognize how the Chinese are dominating most of its internal politics. Again, hardly surprising. The Chinese are in a better position, than Russia, to insert overall political influence over the territories of the Reform League. Among other things, I don't know about 00's depiction of North & South America though, as well as other preposterous political formations. Let me just give a few examples: India, Korea, Taiwan as part of the League? One would think the Indians would have a word or two to say in that. Moreover, I am sure Taiwan and Korea are part of the league because they both love the Chinese oh-so-much! Hell, the only way Taiwan and Korea will ever be part of the league is if the Chinese invaded both countries during an earlier time in 00's history. Then there is Japan. I personally cannot comprehend the idea of Japan ever become part of the US-dominated 'union'. I can see them as allies, but probably nothing else. Its no longer news that US bases are closing one after another in Japan, for many obvious reasons. Aside from national sentiments though, there is also an economy side of things. American bases in Japan are simply too damn expensive to maintain, and no, the US isn't paying a dime to keep 'em running. In fact, the entire framework of US military bases (and associated operations in the region) in Japan is currently being paid for and maintained by the Japanese government since the end of WWII! Not that US marines serve a purpose any longer, really. With less than 50,000 men stationed there since the 90s, and probably less now, coinciding with Japanese rearmament (goodbye article 9, you never should have existed), the Japanese government and Japanese citizens simply see little reason to keep a large presence of foreign troops on their soil. I was surprised they did not factor this possible union, which is none other than a defense organization between Japan, Taiwan, Australia and Korea (assuming they can get off the anti-Japanese roller-coaster ride). - Tak |
Quote:
Also, we have to consider the energy situation. Given China's overall RL goal of becoming a hegemon, it will probably attempt to force Japan to subjegate to it if Japan did have the Union's power lines. Remember, here the owner of the Orbital Elevator is ruler, and if Japan does not have the Union to give it power, it'll have to rely on HRA. And finally, something that's a bit strange: it's "Special Economic Jurisdiction - Japan," meaning that Japan here seems to be economic oriented, as in our world. This means that it needs to have either a paid armies or have another organization provide security. It would seem possible that the US is willing to provide the force to get some of Japan's economic power (which would be needed when you have HRA and AEU forming blocs, and a not-so-good Organization of American States as part of your Union) |
Desperate times calls for extreme measures. I doubt any of them actually went to war with each other. Especially when you can't spare any energy for such events.
When fossil fuels became exhausted, all of the major players combined together to build the space elevators, which are obviously expensive and lengthy to build, so it's not doubt that Korea, India, and Taiwan link up with China and Russia simply because it's beneficial in the long run. And we see it. They are line in line with the Union and are already pushing towards colony development. None of the Asian powers would even think of having Japan join them so the only other option would be the US if Japan wants to survive. The other option was NOT to participate in any of the big 3's projects which means no share of the bread(solar energy) and we see the results in areas that didn't particpated in the construction. Unlike the AEU which has a council, both the Union and the Reform Leagues have a "president" that is seems to work similar to the US. |
There's one question I have about HRA/AEU: WTH happened to Russia? If you look at the map, it split at the Urals.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But as I have stated, I do not know why a fourth organization failed to appear, which again, includes countries like Australia, Korea, Taiwan and Japan itself. It may even extend to the Philippines if necessary. And they can always build a fourth elevator. I don't know whats limiting them, really. This series have yet made a plausible explanation. Anyway, I was under the impression that this discussion should somehow relate to real-world politics. If not, then I will point out right now that some of these political arrangements are simply impossible in the real-world. Quote:
Interestingly enough, an article was recently published in regards to the potential military threat of China, with Russia as its enemy. In the article, the author (who is Russian) states that traditional Russian advantages, an extensive territory and large population is being, and I quote, "stomped upon" by their Chinese neighbors, a country with a larger population and a mentality even more willing to risk lives. So maybe before 00's time, China invaded Russia, split the nation to two and formed the League. This would explain why most politicians in the League are, Chinese! - Tak |
Quote:
Also, if you look at the maps showing where the elevators are, they're all located at the equator, with the space between them at 120 degrees longitude. This could be an indication that there's a limit to how many elevators Earth can support without distrupting each other. (It's similar to the current argument among Korea, Japan, China, Russia, and the US for the satillite space above Northern China/Korea/Japan) Quote:
|
Quote:
Hey, but one thing is for sure, Switzerland is still neutral! Those bastards! Then again, with a first-class armed forces more than a quarter million strong, they probably deserve the status. - Tak |
Quote:
In the end though, it's to represent the major powers which China, the US, and the EU. Code Geass I believed follows a similar format with the EEU, Britannia and Chinese Federation. I don't see why your so eager to state that China used military arms. If say China had to invade a prosperous terrority that has potential to help build their elevator, military arms would be horrible because not only do you risk damaging the infrastructure, but then you gotta spend resources in bringing back to its original potential and their resources at that point are already stretched. I doubt the US had to invade South America just to get that elevator up and running. It's a do or die situation. Either you join up to build the elevators and have your stake in solar energy, or you don't and suffer the consequences. You don't need military intervention, from what the Union President was saying, the economic situation was pretty bad for them and it's just now that they've finally recovered. |
Quote:
Then again, 00 is, thankfully, fiction! Because that world's political arrangement sure is messed up in ours. - Tak |
It might be better if this thread were separated into Military and Government threads.
Having said that, here's my take on the power blocs: Human Reform League Formed mostly of the union of China, India, and Asiatic Russia, it also controls most of the rest of Asia and Pacifica. - They have completed their own orbital elevator, and are seemingly on par with the Union economically, militarily, and technologically. - Government is seemingly controlled by the Chinese. - Both name and flag give off blatantly communistic vibes. (The Swiss Cheese anvil is sort of silly, and a hammer and sickle design would have been cooler.) - Is likely to control half of the world's population. Union of Solar Energy and Free Nations Composed of all nations of North and South Americas, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan (with the possible exception of Tokyo). - They have completed their own orbital elevator, and are seemingly on par with the HRL economically, militarily, and technologically. - Government is supposedly a federation with the main decision-making body composed of a representative of each nation, but it appears as though the decisions made by the American President are more important. - The constituent countries have to authority to maintain an independent military (or militia). - For some reason, it's newest line mobile suit is named after the symbol of an AEU country. Advanced European Union Composed of all nations of Europe (except for Moralia, as far as we know), Turkey, and European Russia. - Easily the most redundant name of all the power blocs. - They have yet to complete their orbital elevator, so it can be assumed that they trail the other power blocs economically and technologically. - Only power bloc to be seen to work under the imposition of a weapons limitation treaty, so they are likely the weakest militarily as well. - Bloc-wide decisions are made up of a five-member body, presumably the representatives of five different countries. It's very likely that Britain and France are represented here, with the rest of members being German, Italian, and Russian (basically the European members of the G8). Even though this body seems to find it important to present a unified front to the rest of the world, the members tend to act out of the interest of their own country even if this isn't necessarily in the interest of the bloc as a whole. - Curiously, their flag is a modified NATO flag. (A modified EU flag would probably have been a better choice.) Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
The problem could be both cash AND space. |
4Tran, allow me to add your view into my first post.
|
Quote:
I'm not sure what's the issue here though. Why would the Swiss insist neutrality in this case? What energy are they gonna use? Methane from cows? Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Besides, if the AEU can play power-trailer, so could they. Quote:
Quote:
Economically, they had always been part of something larger. - Tak |
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
Although it does not change the fact that Switzerland is not economically neutral, and had done much to act in accordance to the EU's economic necessities, as well as the rest of the world. - Tak |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
As a side note, Indians are, based on their percentage of the world's population, one of the most underrepresented groups in anime. Quote:
|
Quote:
"None of the Asian powers would even think of having Japan join them so the only other option would be the US if Japan wants to survive." So I simply pointed out, that in 00's world, its China that is picking the alliances, not anyone else. Had this been the real world, India would feel very comfortable in an alliance with Japan. In fact, that is also happening right now, especially since India and China simply does not get along, at all! Quote:
No, Marina does not look Middle-Eastern. Her character design reminds me of a stereotypical Chinese in anime. Quote:
Quote:
- Tak (Will the real Raj Patel please stand up?) |
Quote:
Quote:
Off-topic: Quote:
Marina is likely Persian, and Persians are an Aryan people whereas the Middle East is ususally associated with Arabs who are a Semetic people. I don't really think that her appearance is too out of place (besides, stereotypical anime Chinese don't look all that much like real Chinese). |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Nonetheless, in one scene, I swear I saw Constantinople, so I am not totally sure if she is Persian. Even if that was the case, then 00 is taking a huge leap in regards to Islamic fundamentalism. Honestly, do you think any Middle-Eastern/Islamic country/region would allow a woman to roam across the world making her own diplomacy while dressing in a manner that would be an affront to Islamic sensitivities? Of course, stereotypical anime Chinese does not look Chinese, then again, neither do anime Japanese. But in most cases, we can pretty much tell who is supposed to be what. - Tak |
Quote:
Of course, the split remains to be explained. Quote:
Quote:
It's not like they've always been that religious, or always will be. |
Quote:
Quote:
And when you say monarchy, exactly which Middle-Eastern country are you referring to? Clearly we have not yet established that Marina is Persian, Turkish or a member of another Middle-Eastern ethnicity. - Tak |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Off-topic: Quote:
Quote:
There's lots of handwaving going on to have the world set up the way it is in Gundam 00, but that sort of goes with the territory. Besides, it's hardly out of place for a Gundam show. |
In our current political climate, Korea, India are more aligned with the US. However, given that it's probably much, much cheaper to get energy from the HRL space elevator, and given that China/Russia would probably require more assistance constructing the space elevator (thus giving minor players much more leverage), I can see how the HRL formed.
This whole distrust of China and belief that it wants to become hegemon seems to implicitly ignore the fact that the Chinese are usually unwilling to commit to armed conflict, especially on a large scale. Ever since the whole 'people's war' doctrine got shown to be laughable in the Sino-Vietnamese conflict, China has realised the futility of such wide ranging 'total war' strategies, and has instead focussed on deterrent power (nuclear) and limited, high tech warfare. The likelihood that any such high tech conflict can actually succeed is thrown into doubt by the US foray into Iraq. Imagine having to pacify India, the world's second most populous nation! |
kinda off topic but...What happened to Global warming?:heh: 300 years from now and it's not an issue?
oww and btw, what happened to our cannabis leaf island? It's not on the map!?! |
Quote:
Quote:
00 takes the assumption that China had taken an aggressive political stance, that is all. Quote:
China went into Vietnam with the explicit agenda of displaying its defiance to Moscow, not to conquer the South-Asian country. We know they achieved at least that. There is no evidence to suggest that China ever wanted to totally dominate the region. Please also note that China commenced the invasion just as the Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Alliance expired. Quote:
Besides, historically, China had been the world's sole superpower for a very, very long time. Ever since that title is robbed from them, you don't think they will get pissed? I goto China these days, and very often, I am reminded of the Opium Wars as well as unfair treaties that European countries forced upon China during the late 18th ~ 19th century. Then there is the whole nationalistic sentiment that engulfs China, which not even the CCP can do much to control. Quote:
- Tak |
Quote:
Or... Maybe the whole reason why the world's only just run out of fossil fuels is that they managed to reduce usage enough to mean reserves lasted a lot longer than otherwise. But then, where's either nuclear power or lots of renewable energy? Or maybe there was some serious global warming in late 21st and 22nd centuries but it's now abated somewhat and no longer considered worth mentioning? Still, I do wonder why the AEU elevator port is out at sea. Seems like worst place to put it (what with hurricanes etc...) |
Quote:
And Japanese conflicts and foreign policy issues have been lingering for around 300 years to modern day. Another 300 years will be like another day in history. They will not simply forget and make nice immediately. As for the Asian alliance, I agree India and Korea most definitely would not just jump in on a Chinese bandwagon. If anything, they'd mostly join Union for their American/Western style economies they're running. I actually expect Japan to join up instead of siding with some Russo/Chinese alliance they never were friendly to. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
So I can imagine Koreans being bitter about having to be stuck between two overwhelming powers. Although most Asian countries still retain the usage of Chinese characters to a degree. After all, Northern Chinese at the time must have been like Latin to Western Europe. On the second part of your discussion, we have noted the degree of plausibility of India, Korea, Japan and Taiwan jumping on the Chinese bandwagon, and it appears only Japan prevailed in seceding from it. Although the question remains, how did Japan do it? After all, not only is Japan on China's hate list, but strategically speaking, they are actually quite valuable. Unfortunately, I have yet to see an explanation. - Tak (And I am certain most Indians retained their previous occupations before joining the League, which is none other than tech-support itself! No wonder we don't see them on screen that often, they need to get out more! Har!) |
As for Korea, it wasn't exactly subjugation because in the ancient Korean dynasties, it really was a bit of an alliance.
Remember that in the Japanese invasion of Korea, it was the Chinese that lent their help to drive them out. And the result wasn't an occupied Korea. Chinese forces went back to their empire. So I doubt it was entirely a hostile thing. Actually, it really was a sort of a standoff (Zero sum game anyone? Ancient Korean kingdoms were pretty powerful entities. I doubt they'd risk an open war just for subjugation). As for Japan not joining the alliance, I think it's most likely that a non-military convention continued into the future and Japan may have become a sort of a special economic zone (durr. referring to the way it was described). And I wonder about their strategic importance compared to let's say: Switzerland, another nation that is a bit more successful in maintaining a relatively neutral stance. Perhaps that is where they're going with Japan there. If there was any singular strategic nation in Eastern Asia right now, it has to be South Korea due to its massive military and vicinity towards Taiwan and Japan. It's ironic since Korea used to be a strategic landmass for millenniums. As for economic pull, I don't see why Japan wouldn't have joined the Union other than Gundam 00 writers wanting to put it in a special category as a nation. |
Quote:
During the course of the war, Korea was never able to summon an army larger than 30,000 men, and with the Japanese closing onto China's front-yard (Manchuria), obviously the Ming Dynasty couldn't just sit there and wait for the whole thing to be over. The last thing the Chinese wanted was to have somebody violating their northern boarders. Chinese foreign policy during the time take that possibility very seriously, and with wars against the Mongols still in process, the Chinese were simply not in the mood for an additional enemy, wherever they came from. Otherwise, initially, the Ming Dynasty was more willing to wait it out, hoping the Koreans and Japanese armies to exhaust themselves. As for your claim on how ancient Korean kingdoms were supposedly strong and unified, let me remind you that Korea was subjugated during the times of China's Han Dynasty, the Three Kingdoms, the Tang Dynasty, the Song Dynasty, the Ming Dynasty and later the Qing Dynasty. When Korea was able to maintain its autonomy, it was also during a time when China was in chaos. The Koreans prevailed during the Sui Dynasty exactly because it was entering the last stages of its existence, as it was engaged in a series of wars that would later be replaced by a vastly more powerful Tang Dynasty. The Koreans never made much military expeditions into the mainland, and for a good reason. They know they can't expect to win. Quote:
Quote:
How much can the SK Army do when an emergency occurs remain to be seen. Although I highly doubt it can take much punishment once China decides to join the fray. - Tak |
A thing: If you don't know much about Northeast Asian history, watch what you say. I'll leave it at that.
I'll also say this: It isn't for nothing that Korean Dynasties lasted for over 500 years, while Chinese ones broke down much faster. Also, the current PRC can't handle a limited war on Manchuria unless they bring out the nukes. |
As a Korean, you obviously have your own perspective while the Chinese have theirs. You can claim your case, but so can they. So don't tell people that they know nothing, for Chinese people can easily say the same things to you.
Chinese dynasties do not break down much faster. Most good ones would last 400 years or more. The Shang Dynasty of China lasted more than 800 years. As for the last part of your statement, I can just imagine some Chinese person walking up to you and say "If you don't know much about current Chinese affairs, watch what you say. I'll leave it at that." But what the heck, I am not Chinese - Tak (Besides, guess who got Korea's back covered all these years? The last time Korea wanted evidence of their failure, it came through China's front-yard carrying a Mongol yak) |
The Chinese military doctrine right up until the 70s was one of large scale manouvre and 'human-wave' type attacks as seen in Korea in the 50's. What worked in one battlefield failed in Vietnam because the Vietnamese employed asymmetric warfare.
Much of the technology employed in S-V was Korean Warfare era stuff, and the Chinese were outgunned by the VA. Chinese military modernization began in the 80s, not the 90s, after 1979. Simply stating that the Chinese "are highly competitive" and "have an agenda" simply attaches labels that can be placed on any self interested nation: It is their methods of attaining success, not their desire for it that we are interested in. Blue Water navies are a sign of world power, not of aggression. Otherwise the USA would be the greatest aggressor of all. Furthermore the accusation that China will get "very pissed" about its "global leadership" is thoroughly flawed: 1. The British, French powers should be equally annoyed at their decline 2. What about the Japanese? Being forced to lose their imperial aspirations... do the majority of Japanese citizens HATE the US for forcing them to go to war in WW2 by cutting crude oil supplies and enforcing a trade embargo on a nation made destitute by the Great Depression? Assumptions that a nation will be "annoyed" because they lose their power tend to reflect the current superpower's fear of being overtaken and are purely speculative in that they apply broad generalizations to something as complicated and intricate as foreign policy. Chinese leadership (and Asian leadership in general) is usually rather subtle and passive. Look at Tokugawa Era Japan, Qing Dynasty China... stability was the key. Hirohito's Japan and the Meiji Era were exceptions to the rule as Japan adopted quintessentially European strategic policies (such as the desire for colonies). China Looks to Africa as a boon for its industrialization. 200 Years ago, the way these resources were exploited was through colonialism. Today, it is through diplomacy. As abhorrent as China's non interventionism is, it isn't motivated by a desire to "take over" Africa so much as to ensure continued access to raw materials. Over their history China has showed little of the aggressive expansion of many other nations. Confucianism is the key to this, and confucian values of stable government and judicious rule is anathema to the instability wrought by warfare. Why else do you think the Cultural Revolution attempted to do away with the 'old' (with so little success I might add?") Regarding the Nationalist sentiment, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I'm an Australian national who immigrated from China when I was 3. When the anti-Japanese riots occurred in recent years I was disgusted because this sort've thing happened in Weimar Germany and Imperial Japan and lead down the road to destruction. However, Chinese nationalism has always been centred not on "destroying the other" but on ensuring that China is safe. That is why Taiwan is viewed as such an important issue. it is purely reactionary as opposed to Bethman Hollweg's "sonderweg" (special path, probably spelt wrongly) in Germany in the 1890s (which helped fracture European relations and lead to WW1) or Japan's militarist inculcation of its populace in the Showa restoration Chinese Nationalism is also (to be honest) rather facile in that it isn't exactly deep seated. "Boycotts" of Japanese goods usually don't end up occurring to any major extent... Why? Because you underestimate a population's desire for wealth and affluence. The chinese have been poorly led and managed over the 20th century. With capitalism and the ability to manage their own lives (to an extent), many people truly care more for their own wealth than for the nation. Apathy is rampant and shows of nationalism for all we know have no depth. Simply implying that China has the intent to dominate is laughable because of the enormous problems of implementation. Are you seriously suggesting China somehow subjugated India and kept them willingly within the HRL for all this time? Nationalism of any kind whether it be aggressive or latent would prevent any nation today from succeeding in such an enormous venture. My theory is that nations banded together because of MUTUAL difficulties, difficulties that would drive adversaries to cooperate. Russia is only aligned with China today because of the US. Is it simply too difficult to imagine that Russia, China and India would pool their resources together and integrate in such a way as to ensure that they remained a global force, albeit united?Historical Precedents for this are rife. |
Quote:
China cannot mobilize its entire forces to Manchuria in a few days, and their air force is too weak to handle Korea ATM. If North Korea wasn't an issue, the China would break with trying to have enough forces to counter Korea AND Taiwan. Of course, in the future, things might change, but thinking Korea was always a weak country, kowtowing to the "Middle" Kingdom is one-sided propaganda. |
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:34. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.