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-   -   [Jap-Manga] Claymore Statistics, Power Levels, and Theories (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=56339)

Fenrir_valindri 2007-10-14 17:24

[Jap-Manga] Claymore Statistics, Power Levels, and Theories
 
After aquiring the last source book, I decided to complise the stats into 1 large list for everyone to see and compare themselves.

I copied this post from my own post on Naruto Forums:

"S" is a special level of ability. A "+" indicts a level of profeciency above the average.

Ability declaration: Assessment E>A for each item.

S signifies a capacity on a different level. + indicates that the effective utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value.

------------------------

Teresa's generation;

Teresa of the Faint Smile: No.1 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: S
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive Type, Pre-Emptive Perception, All-Rounder.

Technique: Detailed Aura Detection

--------------

Priscilla: No.2 (165 CM Tall)

Yoki: A+
Agility: A+
Strength: B+
Mental: D
Sense: A+
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type, Yoki-Supression, Rapid Growth.

Technique: Aura Supression

--------------

"Flash-Sword" Irene: No.3 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: A+
Sense: B
Leadership: A

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: Flash-Sword

---------------

Sophia: No.4 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: C
Strength: A+
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive Type

--------------

Noel: No.5 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: A+
Strength: C
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

-------------

Clare's Generation;

Alicia and Beth: No.1 and No.2 (180 CM tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A+
Strength: A+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: E

Class: Unique

-------------

Galatea: No.3 (185 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: B+
Mental: A
Sensing: A+
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive Type

Technique: Yoki Manipulation


-------------

"Rippling" Ophelia No.4 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: C
Sensing: B+
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: "Rippling" Sword

--------------

Rafaela: No.5 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: A
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: Aura Supression

---------------

"Phantom" Miria No.6 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B+
Agility: A+
Strength: C
Mental: B
Sensing: C
Leadership: A+

Class: Offensive Type

---------------

Flora: No.8 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: A
Strength: C
Mental: B
Sense: C
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: Windcutter

-------------

Jean: No.9 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: C
Strength: B+
Mental: A+
Sense: C
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

-------------

Undine: No.11 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C
Agility: C
Strength: A
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: C+

Class: Offensive Type

-------------

Deneve: No.15 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B+
Agility: B
Strength: C
Mental: C+
Sensing: C
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive Type

--------------

Helen: No.22 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C+
Agility: C
Strength: B
Mental: C
Sensing: C
Leadership: D

Class: Offensive Type

--------------

Clare: No.47 (170 CM Tall)

Yoki: E
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: D
Sensing: C+
Leadership: E

Class: Offensive Type, Pre-Emptive Perception

Technique: Flash-Sword


--------------

Elena: No.? (Clare's dead friend from Volume 1)

Yoki: D
Agility: D
Strength: D
Mental: E
Sense: D
Leadership: C


---------------


Awakened Beings: Awakened Beings are rated on a completely different scale, "Intelligence" is the most common translation of that last stat, so I'll go with it.


Priscilla: Former No.2

Yoki: EX
Agility: SSS+
Strength: SSS
Hardness: S+
Intelligence: SS


--------------

Ophelia: No. 4 (Eliminated)

Yoki: SS
Agility: SSS
Strength: SS
Hardness: S
Intelligence: SS


----------------

Duph: Former No.3

Yoki: SSS+
Agility: S
Strength: SSS+
Hardness: SSS
Intelligence: C


------------------

Hilda: Former No.6 (Eliminated)

Yoki: SSS+
Agility: SS+
Strength: SS
Hardness: S
Intelligence: SS


------------------

Female AB: Ophelia's Short-Lived playmate (Eliminated)

Yoki: SS+
Agility: SS
Strength: SS
Hardness: S
Intelligence: SS


-------------------

Male AB: First one to Appear in the manga (Eliminated)

Yoki: SS
Agility: SS
Strength: S
Hardness: S+
Intelligence: SS


-------------------

Katea: (Eliminated)

Yoki: A
Agility: S
Strength: A
Hardness: A
Intelligence: S


------------------------------

and there you have it, for all to see. :twitch:

Edit: some clarification for what A-D and + and S mean.

Fate_Archer 2007-10-15 03:47

Thanks for the Info, Fenrir. :)

As expected, Jean has a great Mental, while Undine and Flora excel in strength and agility respectively.

I have to say that the twins's stats didn't surprise me much. I had great perspective about these two.
Now, we can definitely say that Alicia and Beth aren't puppets that can only semi-transform into a complete awakened been.
Ok, they are puppets, but they aren't only "concentrate, awake, kill, return".
It would be sweet to see their combat skills.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri (Post 1201461)



Rafaela: No.5 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: A
Leadership: C


------------------------


Teresa of the Faint Smile: No.1 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: S
Leadership: B

------------------------


Alicia and Beth: No.1 and No.2 (180 CM tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A+
Strength: A+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: E




Discuss.

By the way, as Rubel says, Rafaela was so strong as Lucera/Luciela, so we now have an analogue way to compare these top Claymores from different generations.

Let's stop the Priscilla vs Teresa discussion and go further to the:

Teresa vs Alicia vs Beth discussion.

Not a great difference between Teresa and the Twins, one could even argue that they can be stronger.

**Run away and hide from the Teresa's worshipers**

Blablabla 2007-10-15 04:15

So Alicia and Beth are actually the strongest Claymores in history (even without talking about the "awaken" tip). No need to discuss more, facts are here.

(and therefore, Teresa even if awakened is no deal for the Abyssals and so, the Priscilla that kicked Luciela).

BaalChaamon 2007-10-15 06:47

wow, alicia and beth really are powerful, even without awakening and from the data given they could easily take on Luciela in her awakened form!
So we can assume that the other ABs had more or less around the same stats that Raphalea has now.
Remember, Riful said that (regardless what anyone on the forum thinks) Isley was near death after the fight with Luciela so he could have only been a little stronger than Luciela, if he was at all.


At any rate, Alicia and Beth have risen in my favour even more now!!

BaalChaamon 2007-10-15 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri (Post 1201461)
Undine: No.11 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C
Agility: C
Strength: A
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: C+


-------------

Deneve: No.15 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B+
Agility: B
Strength: C
Mental: C+
Sensing: C
Leadership: C


--------------

Helen: No.22 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C+
Agility: C
Strength: B
Mental: C
Sensing: C
Leadership: D


Am suprised as to how WEAK Undine is, there is only little difference between the lower levels. Overall, Deneva seems to be on par with her. On the other hand , the top five really are in a league of their own!

brutalman 2007-10-15 07:56

These are meant to be the Org's evaluations just before the Pieta aren't they? They've obviously got problems ranking Claire - at Pieta she seemed roughly as powerful as Flora even before she awakened her limbs.

What do they mean by "Mental"?

BaalChaamon 2007-10-15 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by brutalman (Post 1202652)
These are meant to be the Org's evaluations just before the Pieta aren't they? They've obviously got problems ranking Claire - at Pieta she seemed roughly as powerful as Flora even before she awakened her limbs.

What do they mean by "Mental"?

I guess its meant to be mental strenght/will power... no suprise Alicia, Beth, Irene and Jean excelled at that

Fenrir_valindri 2007-10-15 10:27

The main flaw with saying that Alicia/Beth > Teresa is that Teresa special ability (Yoki-sensing) gives her a near absolute advantage in combat, so despite their superior strength, her ability gives her a huge boost.

Mental does = willpower, just as BaalChaamon stated.

-----------

I believe the Organization never got to re-do their evaluation of Clare's skills due to her leaving the Organization right before the War in the North, but we have a pretty good guess at what Clare's stats are like now that we have Flora's.

My guess for Clare's stats at that time would be =

Yoki = C+
Agility = B+
Strength = C
Mental = B
Sense = B+
Leadership = E

My reasoning behind these stats is that Rigaldo wrote off Deneve (who has a B+ in Yoki) but targetted people who had A stats. So I decided not to give Clare an A stat, so her escaping Rigaldo's death-o-meter makes sense.

Note that her Agility is only a B because the quick-sword is a special ability, like her Yoki-sensing.

------------

As for Miata, if the Organization is right, she is about as strong as Alicia but with the added bonus of her sixth sense, which is supposed to be seperate from her Yoki-sensing ability, but i am certain she would lose out on the mental score. :p

So my guess would be =

Yoki = S
Agility = A+
Strength = A+
Mental = D
Sense = S
Leadership = E

As combat-powerful as Alicia, but lacking in both restraint and leadership ability. Her sensing would be top-tier though, especially since it does not rely on Yoki.

------------------

Also note that Priscilla never got the chance to fully develop her skill while under the Organization's wing, but her awakening unlocked her potential, which was likely much higher then the stats displayed here.

Sassarai 2007-10-15 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blablabla (Post 1202427)
So Alicia and Beth are actually the strongest Claymores in history (even without talking about the "awaken" tip). No need to discuss more, facts are here.


http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7656/texh1.jpg

Anh_Minh 2007-10-15 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blablabla (Post 1202427)
So Alicia and Beth are actually the strongest Claymores in history (even without talking about the "awaken" tip). No need to discuss more, facts are here.

(and therefore, Teresa even if awakened is no deal for the Abyssals and so, the Priscilla that kicked Luciela).

They may be A+ in everything, but that doesn't mean they can beat Theresa's sensing trick.

Besides, IIRC, those cards aren't the word of god, but only the Organisation's views. And we know Theresa hid most of her hand from them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon (Post 1202573)
wow, alicia and beth really are powerful, even without awakening and from the data given they could easily take on Luciela in her awakened form!
So we can assume that the other ABs had more or less around the same stats that Raphalea has now.
Remember, Riful said that (regardless what anyone on the forum thinks) Isley was near death after the fight with Luciela so he could have only been a little stronger than Luciela, if he was at all.


At any rate, Alicia and Beth have risen in my favour even more now!!

What are you talking about? Raphaela, back before she suppressed her youki, was as strong as unawakened Luciela. Nobody ever claimed she came close to an Abyssal One level of power.

It's the same for Alicia and Beth. When Awakened, Alicia is Abyssal-class. Otherwise, she's "just" a number 1. Remember, when she was incomplete, she deemed herself unable to do more than 50% damage on Riful.

Fenrir_valindri 2007-10-15 14:45

Exactly, Awakening has a significant jump in power, so Alicia would have to awaken to fight the Abyssal Ones regardless.

As for Teresa, she may have hid her hand from the Organization, but judging by the 3rd data book, they were well aware of many things that we did not believe they knew about, they even know about Clare's 4-limbed Partial-awakening judging by the data book.

I also doubt that they do not check whether a warrior has been confirmed eliminated or not. So Teresa's rather unbelievable statement over Rosemary NOT awakening was probably seen through immediatly.

Especially considering that Teresa claimed normal yoma had caused her injuries...pfff yeah right. :heh:

I also had a thought on how Alicia's stats can be so high, technically she is a partially awakened #1, and as we have seen, the partial awakenings increase power significantly.

Anh_Minh 2007-10-15 14:55

Yeah... But as for Irene's statement that she, Sophia, and Noel were better than Theresa in each of their specialties, I'd have to say "Not even on the best days of your lives." And they do have some A+ in there, so I think Theresa's at least A+ too...

Sassarai 2007-10-15 15:16

Well if they knew teresa's abilities that well they wouldnt of just sent 2,3,4, and 5 after her. All of them got totally pwned.

All these stats and gizmothingymiggies dont mean much in the claymore world. If so Clare would of been dead already and it would of took more then a fingernail to kill flora /cry

Gooral 2007-10-15 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri (Post 1203199)
Especially considering that Teresa claimed normal yoma had caused her injuries...pfff yeah right. :heh:

Not injuries but messed up clothes :P.
These stats are only inexact estimations of power. Inexact because for example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being, Teresa S/A warrior easily killed SSS+ Awakened Being (or even stronger, Duph was SSS+/SSS warrior).
Also when estimating these stats they had to compare to sth (maybe themselves ;)), so the question is Alicia's power is S relative to whom ? Don't think they had an eye such good as Galatea in Teresa's era so direct measurement was impossible I think.

Quote:

As for Teresa, she may have hid her hand from the Organization, but judging by the 3rd data book, they were well aware of many things that we did not believe they knew about, they even know about Clare's 4-limbed Partial-awakening judging by the data book.
Can't agree with You on that simply because if organization knew Teresa's real potential they would not send Claymores 2-5 but waited until Priscilla evolved and then tried to kill her. Losing 4 most powerful warriors to kill one is illogical and assuming that MiB aren't stupid they didn't know the depth of Teresa's power.

Sassarai 2007-10-15 15:41

It's ok you go into detail about stuff while im just a sarcastic guy. Even if its the same thing you make it sound more meaningful.

Fenrir_valindri 2007-10-15 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooral (Post 1203252)
Not injuries but messed up clothes :P.
These stats are only inexact estimations of power. Inexact because for example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being, Teresa S/A warrior easily killed SSS+ Awakened Being (or even stronger, Duph was SSS+/SSS warrior).
Also when estimating these stats they had to compare to sth (maybe themselves ;)), so the question is Alicia's power is S relative to whom ? Don't think they had an eye such good as Galatea in Teresa's era so direct measurement was impossible I think.

Even damaging her clothes is way beyond anything a normal Yoma could do to Teresa of the Faint Smile, also getting slammed through rocks and knocked around does not qualify as "uninjured."

Awakened beings are rated on a different scale, either that or they waste a ton of energy maintaining their awakened forms.

The stats are compared to each other I assume, the highest that they recorded would likely be S, and the lowest would be F.

They also imply that they have an Eye for each era, so I assume they can measure power quite accurately. (The exception being Teresa, as she was likely the Eye of her Era, thus could have fudged her info.)

Quote:

Can't agree with You on that simply because if organization knew Teresa's real potential they would not send Claymores 2-5 but waited until Priscilla evolved and then tried to kill her. Losing 4 most powerful warriors to kill one is illogical and assuming that MiB aren't stupid they didn't know the depth of Teresa's power.

I think it is quite possible, they were probably over-enthusiastic with Priscilla's awesome potential, and assumed she could defeat Teresa with help. They were right actually, if Priscilla had followed the plan Teresa would have died before the fight had even started. The fault lies on Priscilla for the failure of the mission, not Teresa. Not to mention the Organization acted on reflex, panic-mode if you will, they could not afford to have Teresa awaken OR go rogue. They did not have much choice on the matter in the big-scheme of things.

Sassarai 2007-10-15 17:16

Teresa just said "you could of wounded me." Take that line however you want to I guess but the fact is that they got WHOOPEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD easily EASILY. Meh organization is in a panic is just a bad excuse :( . All the male ABs, Riful, Easley, Lucela, etc they have been in worst situations. From what Irene said Ill just take it as they underestimated her by a lot.

"I was sure the four of us could take her. I misjudged her again. And yet she still hasnt released her yoma powers." ( While all of them released theirs already)

BaalChaamon 2007-10-15 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 1203032)
They may be A+ in everything, but that doesn't mean they can beat Theresa's sensing trick.

Besides, IIRC, those cards aren't the word of god, but only the Organisation's views. And we know Theresa hid most of her hand from them.


What are you talking about? Raphaela, back before she suppressed her youki, was as strong as unawakened Luciela. Nobody ever claimed she came close to an Abyssal One level of power.

It's the same for Alicia and Beth. When Awakened, Alicia is Abyssal-class. Otherwise, she's "just" a number 1. Remember, when she was incomplete, she deemed herself unable to do more than 50% damage on Riful.


That was ill phrased... what i ment to say was that Alicia and Beth could take on an Luciela if one of them awakens. I am saying this based on the statement that Luciela and Raphaela were on par before the former awakened. Regardless if Raphaela suppressed her Yoki after the incident or not, I doubt the Org. would compile wrong data knowing her previous power so Id say its safe to assume her current ratings are the same as her old ones and that of her sister before she became an Abyssal One. And Alicia and Beth surpass them in all of those stats

BaalChaamon 2007-10-15 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooral (Post 1203252)
Not injuries but messed up clothes :P.
These stats are only inexact estimations of power. Inexact because for example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being, Teresa S/A warrior easily killed SSS+ Awakened Being (or even stronger, Duph was SSS+/SSS warrior).
Also when estimating these stats they had to compare to sth (maybe themselves ;)), so the question is Alicia's power is S relative to whom ? Don't think they had an eye such good as Galatea in Teresa's era so direct measurement was impossible I think.

Interesting enough Hilda (No.6) has a so much more powerful Yoki level compared to Ophelai (No.4) of her time. Awakening seems to have disproportionately increased that stat of hers so I'd say she hasnt seen her haydays prior to her awakening and could have become a top 5 warrior, hence why her complete Yoki potential was unleashed upon awakening.

Fenrir_valindri 2007-10-15 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassarai (Post 1203425)
Teresa just said "you could of wounded me." Take that line however you want to I guess but the fact is that they got WHOOPEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD easily EASILY. Meh organization is in a panic is just a bad excuse :( . All the male ABs, Riful, Easley, Lucela, etc they have been in worst situations. From what Irene said Ill just take it as they underestimated her by a lot.

"I was sure the four of us could take her. I misjudged her again. And yet she still hasnt released her yoma powers." ( While all of them released theirs already)

Teresa was bleeding from the head because of her fight with Rosemary, and afterwards Teresa destroyed her with her almighty haxxorness, so she was the clear winner, yes, but she was not uninjured.

And if I were the Organization I would panic too, they very likely knew Teresa's strength, and that would make the situation potentially worse then any of those that you mentioned, because if Teresa awakened she would be more powerful then any of the forementioned threats.

It is also mentioned that Priscilla was ideal for fighting Teresa because Teresa could not detect her Yoki, but we all know that plan went straight to hell when Priscilla gave herself away and they all released Yoki in hopes of overwhelming her (and thus screwing themselves even more.)

Quote:

Interesting enough Hilda (No.6) has a so much more powerful Yoki level compared to Ophelai (No.4) of her time. Awakening seems to have disproportionately increased that stat of hers so I'd say she hasnt seen her haydays prior to her awakening and could have become a top 5 warrior, hence why her complete Yoki potential was unleashed upon awakening.
I noticed that myself, seems quite likely that you are correct and she was quite a great deal stronger then we were led to believe by her rank, or all Awakenings are not equal.

Sassarai 2007-10-15 21:41

Actually Ive have no idea how to debate against you because you're confusing me;;. Oh well its just speculation vs speculation and always someone comes up with a bigger speculation then the other previous speculation etc etc etc. I give up. I stated my point and im done. I dont like circle arguments like the ones in the Raki thread it drives me bonkers.

Sassarais stats:

Mental(willpower): E

Fate_Archer 2007-10-15 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 1203032)
Besides, IIRC, those cards aren't the word of god, but only the Organisation's views. And we know Theresa hid most of her hand from them.


Well, they aren't but they are our best references now. And even if they aren't, the actual stats wouldn't be so far from this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri (Post 1203199)
I also had a thought on how Alicia's stats can be so high, technically she is a partially awakened #1, and as we have seen, the partial awakenings increase power significantly.


I was thinking the same even before these databooks showed up. Following the logic that every time you get close to awake and go back, you become stronger, hence the superiority of the semi-awakened, the return from a complete awakening would turn Alicia each time even more stronger.
So, powerful enough, Alicia can still evolve, while Riful, Easley and even Priscilla are predestined to stay on their same levels.

If that's true, it would make much sense all investments, sacrifices and the time spent by the Org on these two.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooral (Post 1203252)
These stats are only inexact estimations of power. Inexact because for example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being

Sorry for breaking your sentence, but I guess none of these stats or informations can translate the luck or surprise factor.
Ophelia was dominated and could be dead, but even with a broken neck she managed to kill and surprise the female SS awakened been.
Teresa was fooled by a cheap shot. Does that makes Priscilla stronger than Teresa? No. (Please, don't start all over again, i'm just using it as an argument)
So yeah, in this way these stats aren't really exact, but it doesn't make them inexact either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooral (Post 1203252)
Also when estimating these stats they had to compare to sth (maybe themselves ;)), so the question is Alicia's power is S relative to whom ? Don't think they had an eye such good as Galatea in Teresa's era so direct measurement was impossible I think.

I guess they just make the more logical thing, they use the average as reference. The ones that have potential or surpass this average are placed with lesser digits.
And just because there wasn't an eye in the #1 to #5 of this generation, it doesn't mean that there wasn't an eye at all.
Tabitha is the "eye" of the fab 7 and she is just #31. Even without an eye so good as Galatea, a good measurement would be possible, I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri (Post 1203402)
Awakened beings are rated on a different scale, either that or they waste a ton of energy maintaining their awakened forms.

Judging by their stats, awakened Katea seems to be a "normal" Claymore, while Duff has a C in its intelligence trait. The scale seems to be the same for both Claymores and Awakened beens. So most probably, they use their yoki to maintain their awakened body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri (Post 1203402)
They also imply that they have an Eye for each era, so I assume they can measure power quite accurately. (The exception being Teresa, as she was likely the Eye of her Era, thus could have fudged her info.)

To avoid this kind of issue, the eye and the number #1 should be different warriors, with the eye being a more reliable and weaker Claymore. Don't know if they consider that, but I just guess they should know.
On a side note, Teresa's sensing ability is totally directed for combat.
Besides Clare also detecting Galatea from a great distance, which would mean an indirect implication, we never saw Teresa sensing yoki from an unusual distance, or even acting like an eye.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri (Post 1203402)
I think it is quite possible, they were probably over-enthusiastic with Priscilla's awesome potential, and assumed she could defeat Teresa with help. They were right actually, if Priscilla had followed the plan Teresa would have died before the fight had even started. The fault lies on Priscilla for the failure of the mission, not Teresa. Not to mention the Organization acted on reflex, panic-mode if you will, they could not afford to have Teresa awaken OR go rogue. They did not have much choice on the matter in the big-scheme of things.

Totally agreed.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon (Post 1203641)
Interesting enough Hilda (No.6) has a so much more powerful Yoki level compared to Ophelai (No.4) of her time. Awakening seems to have disproportionately increased that stat of hers so I'd say she hasnt seen her haydays prior to her awakening and could have become a top 5 warrior, hence why her complete Yoki potential was unleashed upon awakening.

About that matter, there isn't a proper answer I think.
Firstly, Rubel said that Priscilla unleashead all her potential when she awoke. What conflicts with Riful's statement when she left Clare, Jean and Galatea alive, so they could get stronger and awake as even more powerful awakened beens.

I just believe Hilda was stronger, regardless of their ranks. (Yeah, I prefer Rifuls words, she hasn't left those 3 for no reason.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassarai (Post 1203829)
...

Sassarais stats:

Mental(willpower): E

lol :heh:

That's because you're only using 15% of your mental power. :D

Sassarai 2007-10-15 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer (Post 1203924)
lol :heh:

That's because you're only using 15% of your mental power. :D


Ahem Correction 20% if you want to get techinical then it's 20.233(repeating of course)

Fenrir_valindri 2007-10-15 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer (Post 1203924)

About that matter, there isn't a proper answer I think.
Firstly, Rubel said that Priscilla unleashead all her potential when she awoke. What conflicts with Riful's statement when she left Clare, Jean and Galatea alive, so they could get stronger and awake as even more powerful awakened beens.

I just believe Hilda was stronger, regardless of their ranks. (Yeah, I prefer Rifuls words, she hasn't left those 3 for no reason)

Actually if you notice, Riful only says that about Clare and Jean, the two partially awakened, she does not say anything about Galatea, I guess she realy did not like the idea of Alicia measuring her power.

So both Rubel and Riful could be correct, Rubel in that Awakening "awakens" your potential power, and Riful in that Jean and Clare could increase there power before awakening fully.

and don't worry Sassarai, i'll try not to drag you into my arguements.

Fenrir Valindri's stats

Mental(willpower) : A

FateAnomaly 2007-10-16 01:04

The stats is only a gauge of their physical abilities. When it comes to fighting, lot of other factors comes into play like skill, knowledge, morale and even luck.

azurie 2007-10-16 01:08

desire would also be considered too i would think. One who has a desire to win might do a lot better than someone who is just there because it's a job or some other so so reason. wouldn't ya think? or would you qualify that as part of moral?

BaalChaamon 2007-10-16 03:27

I'm with Fenrir on the awakening and power surge topic. While Claymores (partially awakened or not) are able to increase their ability and skill levels progressively through training (partially awakened ones possible more effectively by tapping into a greater portion of their potential or by improving the quality of their yoki as Miria stated in the Slashers arc), Awakened ones cannot improve their abilities but remain static once they have unleashed their actual and potential power. Thats why I said that Hilda could have possible become a Tier 1 warrior (aka Top 5), but she awakened before she could use her potential.

Regarding the whole issue of Teresa hiding her power: I always wondered why the Org. never looked for the remains of Rosemary to check what had happened. Its not a casual event for a former No.1 to come close to awakening and would be worthwhile checking on what went on. They did find the awakened remains of Ophelia after all. My guess is that Teresa buried her Claymore style after she had her fun with her.

dee32 2007-10-16 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri (Post 1202813)
I believe the Organization never got to re-do their evaluation of Clare's skills due to her leaving the Organization right before the War in the North, but we have a pretty good guess at what Clare's stats are like now that we have Flora's.

My guess for Clare's stats at that time would be =

Yoki = C+
Agility = B
Strength = C
Mental = B
Sense = B+
Leadership = E

I agree with mostly with your assumption of Clare's stats except for:

Agility = A

Is it safe to say at this time when Clare faces Flora, Clare would be considered a single digit possibly the new number 7?


This is my guess for Clare's stats seven years after the war in the North when she fights Miria.

Yoki = C+
Agility = A
Strength = C
Mental = B+
Sense = A
Leadership = D

Another thing does anyone have an idea what are the stats for Cynthia, Tabitha, and Yuma are?

Flar 2007-10-16 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by dee32 (Post 1204238)
Is it safe to say at this time when Clare faces Flora, Clare would be considered a single digit possibly the new number 7?

Number 9 I'd say, Flora still beat her in Leadership, yoki, tactics and iai. In the other hand, she blasted awakened ophelia alone and was arguably better than Jean when it came to leadership and efficiency against Riful.

Quote:

Another thing does anyone have an idea what are the stats for Cynthia, Tabitha, and Yuma are?
At the time of Pieta...

Cynthia is stronger than Deneve (according to ranking), and is defensive too. She was one of the six last standing in pieta, and she clearly takes control of the group after the fab 4 take off to rescue the poor lambs from Riful. so I would say:

Yoki = C+
Agility = C
Strength = C+
Mental = B+
Sense = B
Leadership = B

Tabitha shows some "tricky movements" against the first AB in Pieta, and become the Ghost 7s eye, with a better range than Clare. She was not among the last 6 standing in Pieta. She was 30. She's a follower, also. So:

Yoki = C
Agility = B
Strength = C
Mental = C
Sense = B+
Leadership = E


Yuma sucks. She's the only one wounded in the first Pieta skirmish, she isn't part of the last 6, she is a follower, she cannot even follow Clare when she walks fast. Still, she survived, and she can sense power. So:

Yoki = D
Agility = E
Strength = D
Mental = E
Sense = D
Leadership = E

Fenrir_valindri 2007-10-16 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon (Post 1204205)
Regarding the whole issue of Teresa hiding her power: I always wondered why the Org. never looked for the remains of Rosemary to check what had happened. Its not a casual event for a former No.1 to come close to awakening and would be worthwhile checking on what went on. They did find the awakened remains of Ophelia after all. My guess is that Teresa buried her Claymore style after she had her fun with her.

I have my doubts on whether Teresa's power was actually well hidden from the Organization, as you said, a nearly-awakened former #1 is way to important to go unchecked...unless you have confidence in Teresa's ability to kill her in such a case. :uhoh:

The reason I did not give Clare an A stat is because Rigaldo ignored her, and the only thing that every target of Rigaldo seemed to share (other then obviously being the leaders) was that they all had a A stat, thus leading Rigaldo to focus on them.

So maybe a B+, but just barely not a A.

I believe it is too hard to judge the other 3, cept maybe Cynthia, based on what we have seen of them, but I think your underrating Yuma.

My guess would be;

Yuma

Yoki: D
Agility: D
Strength: D
Mental: C
Sense: D
Leadership: C

I basically compared her stats to Elena (Clare's friend) as she IS higher ranked then Clare (technically.) So it is good to judge based on the next lowest character we know, stat wise.

I doubt any of the 7 Ghosts mental score is low either, as they have quite the strong will-power to survive in the north for 7 years, while training to increase their strength.

Flar 2007-10-16 09:41

Just going by org evaluations before the time skip. Leadership C for Yuma is definitely too high, since all she does is follow. She froze before the first AB she saw too, so if we take snapshots of them during the northern war, she has no iron mental either, D at max, imho.

Then again, as Miria said, the 24 sent in Pieta were all better off dead for the organisation, so what was Yuma's offense? (I could go with Cynthia being too cunning and Tabitha knowing too much, but what did Yuma pull to get sacked?)

About Clare, after killing Ligardes, before the timeskip, Pris sees two strong lights, way stronger than the others, that I assume are Miria and Clare, that's why I would put Miria and Clare at at least A+ for Yoki

Tevourious 2007-10-16 10:00

All this talk of stats has me wanting to stat the ladies out via the RPG, Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition books. :) anyone else familiar with the system? :) I think the Claymore world would rock as a rpg setting :)

azurie 2007-10-16 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flar (Post 1204551)
Just going by org evaluations before the time skip. Leadership C for Yuma is definitely too high, since all she does is follow. She froze before the first AB she saw too, so if we take snapshots of them during the northern war, she has no iron mental either, D at max, imho.

Then again, as Miria said, the 24 sent in Pieta were all better off dead for the organisation, so what was Yuma's offense? (I could go with Cynthia being too cunning and Tabitha knowing too much, but what did Yuma pull to get sacked?)

About Clare, after killing Ligardes, before the timeskip, Pris sees two strong lights, way stronger than the others, that I assume are Miria and Clare, that's why I would put Miria and Clare at at least A+ for Yoki

Clare's yoki fluxuates to much can go from a low rank to almost AO rank as you have seen so putting her to stats is almost impossible with any of the stats but for leadership and even then she has shown at time she possess some rather good leadership skills when she so wants it's a matter of WANTING to it seems. i get the feeling that she will begin to pull more and more from Terresa's flesh and power as time goes on and learn more from it and how to control it even better.

One thing i have noticed with Clare though is she seems to be a collector not just of body parts but yoki based skills as well. Look at the flash sword as one example. Sure it's hard to learn but one would have thought just from what Irene said it would be nearly impossible for Clare with her mentality to learn it. And when she was in the witches maw arc she very quickly picked up in part Galatea's skill to a point to turn back Jean. So it seems she can to a limited degree absorb skills she sees or feels.

Any's opinions and thoughts? i welcome feedback.

Fenrir_valindri 2007-10-16 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flar (Post 1204551)
Just going by org evaluations before the time skip. Leadership C for Yuma is definitely too high, since all she does is follow. She froze before the first AB she saw too, so if we take snapshots of them during the northern war, she has no iron mental either, D at max, imho.

I really do not think so, just because she got scared does not mean that she has a low mental score, Irene was scared and she has one of the highest mental scores in the series, at least Yuma is still willing to fight even after going through such an ordeal, and she does not go berserk at the drop of a hat like Clare does. :heh:

I gave her a C in leadership because Elena had one too, and she was obviously low-ranked as well, we don't see Yuma leading because well, everyone else is higher ranked then her, cept for Clare, who does not even listen to Miria that often.


Quote:

Then again, as Miria said, the 24 sent in Pieta were all better off dead for the organisation, so what was Yuma's offense? (I could go with Cynthia being too cunning and Tabitha knowing too much, but what did Yuma pull to get sacked?)
The 24 sent to Pieta were either trouble-makers or expendable, so my guess is a vast majority, including Cynthia and Tabitha, were just that, expendable.


Quote:

About Clare, after killing Ligardes, before the timeskip, Pris sees two strong lights, way stronger than the others, that I assume are Miria and Clare, that's why I would put Miria and Clare at at least A+ for Yoki

Yes, but we are talking pre-Rigaldo here, I would not be so quick to stick Miria and Clare's Yoki at A+; that would be at noob Priscilla level.
I would be more willing to stick them in the A catagory though, simliar to Irene and Galatea

----------------


Quote:

Clare's yoki fluxuates to much can go from a low rank to almost AO rank as you have seen so putting her to stats is almost impossible with any of the stats but for leadership and even then she has shown at time she possess some rather good leadership skills when she so wants it's a matter of WANTING to it seems. i get the feeling that she will begin to pull more and more from Terresa's flesh and power as time goes on and learn more from it and how to control it even better.
Her Yoki does flux quite a bit, so it is impossible to accurately gauge her abilities, but she only goes to almost AO rank when she did the awakened limb thing.

I do not really think she has good leadership skills based on what we have seen, she is prone to independent action and is hot-headed, just because she had an idea (that was full of holes) and it worked does not mean she has even decent leadership skills, it helps that Jean was more then willing to help her out (with the whole wookie-lifedebt thing.)

Every time she partially awakens I get the feeling she becomes more and more compatible with the Yoma that was inside Teresa. So I believe she is becoming stronger and stronger every time she goes over her limit.

Quote:

One thing i have noticed with Clare though is she seems to be a collector not just of body parts but yoki based skills as well. Look at the flash sword as one example. Sure it's hard to learn but one would have thought just from what Irene said it would be nearly impossible for Clare with her mentality to learn it. And when she was in the witches maw arc she very quickly picked up in part Galatea's skill to a point to turn back Jean. So it seems she can to a limited degree absorb skills she sees or feels.
Not really; she was not suited to the flash-sword, so she needed Irene's (much more compatible) arm in order to use it properly. Galatea's skill was also closely linked with Clare's own, so it is not much of a suprise that she can do a half-assed version of Galatea's skill, especially when her target is going along with her, hell even Jean managed to pull it off later. I believe Clare is just a quick learner, everything she has picked up has been related to her normal skill-set or she has had help. (AKA Irene's arm)
Later the Windcutter was achievable because of the latent ability in Irene's arm as well.

azurie 2007-10-16 11:14

i see your points and will conceed to many of them but here's something to consider

Galatea's ability to tweak yoki is that a learned skill or something from the yoma flesh she aquired? it's not something we ever learned so who really knows. Terresa sure never showed she has such a skill or for that matter that she was that generation's eye. Just leaves more questions than answers i guess.

Flar 2007-10-16 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by azurie (Post 1204635)
One thing i have noticed with Clare though is she seems to be a collector not just of body parts but yoki based skills as well. Look at the flash sword as one example. Sure it's hard to learn but one would have thought just from what Irene said it would be nearly impossible for Clare with her mentality to learn it. And when she was in the witches maw arc she very quickly picked up in part Galatea's skill to a point to turn back Jean. So it seems she can to a limited degree absorb skills she sees or feels.

I don't know. She starts off with Yoki reading as her strong point, but that's hardly a "technique", merely a specialisation and good use of her senses. You could hardly say that the two Claymores sent with Irena for Teresa's head had Strength and Agility techniques, just that they were specialized in it.

The same way, all Claymores will probably specialize one way or another, but techniques are not limited. Helen picked up Jean's strong blow for example, and Tabitha probably became a Galatea bis.

The way the mangaka weaves his story, Miria is midfielder/captain, with speed and tactics but low power, when Clare and Helen are forwards hard hitters. Deneve is defense, Tabitha manager, Cynthia the second defenser and Yuma the ball.

azurie 2007-10-16 11:26

what exactly is Yuma's nich? haven't seen her fight or anything

dee32 2007-10-16 11:29

So after the timeskip is it possible for Mira leadership= S.

azurie 2007-10-16 11:31

yanno that's a good question specially since she is the one who got them all out of that sticky sitiation. BUT!! how did they aquire the pills?? clare maybe?

Fenrir_valindri 2007-10-16 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flar (Post 1204698)
I don't know. She starts off with Yoki reading as her strong point, but that's hardly a "technique", merely a specialisation and good use of her senses. You could hardly say that the two Claymores sent with Irena for Teresa's head had Strength and Agility techniques, just that they were specialized in it.

The same way, all Claymores will probably specialize one way or another, but techniques are not limited. Helen picked up Jean's strong blow for example, and Tabitha probably became a Galatea bis.

The way the mangaka weaves his story, Miria is midfielder/captain, with speed and tactics but low power, when Clare and Helen are forwards hard hitters. Deneve is defense, Tabitha manager, Cynthia the second defenser and Yuma the ball.

Her Yoki-manipulation is probably something that derived from her Yoki-sensing, similiar to how Teresa used her close-in Yoki-sensing skills as a sort of "danger-sense." I would guess it is a learned ability, like the flash-sword, but only those who are "built" for it can use it as well as Galatea, (AKA the AB in the North who could manipulate Yoki.)

Helen's flexible arms are probably what allowed her to pick of Jean's simliar, yet different, skill. While Tabitha always had talent in that department, but was over-shadowed by people like Galatea.

I would say Miria is the All-rounder, she can perform whatever roll she needs to in battle, and she can attack at sudden and unexpected speeds, she is quick with thinking on her feet as well, not to mention her phantom ability can confuse the crap out of those caught un-aware.

Helen would be a Shock-trooper as her abilities allow her to attack from unexpected angles at unexpected ranges, and with alot of power now with Jean's technique.

Clare is definatly a front-liner, with her Yoki-sensing allowing her to avoid the worst of attacks, and her Windcutter giving her an offensive punch.

Deneve is definatly a tank/front-liner, she can take hits and it is obvious that she has focused on her strength a bit with the two-sword style that she picked up from Undine.

Cynthia is probably a all-rounder like Miria, but to a much lesser degree, as she has many of the same qualities that Miria has, but she is also a defensive type, so where Miria is more focused on speed, she is more focused on toughness.

Tabitha is the advanced warning and is probably on over-watch duty to ensure that people do not get suprised by an unexpected attack, as she has the longest range out of the 7 ghosts, she likely only invovles herself heavily in battle when they need the extra power, or when it is safe for her to do so.

Yuma is likely the filler/clean-up, she is the weakest of the bunch but she is an extra body that the enemy has to worry about, and having so many people attacking you at once could make it difficult to defend against even Yuma.


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