A discussion focusing on KyoAni/Kadokawa recently took off on the Anime DVD/BD Sales in Japan: Discussion thread, so I'm moving it over here.
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Still, I don't expect KyoAni to make multiple shows per season. You're right, at that point, they'd risk eating into their own sales (imagine if Hyou-Ka had to go up against a new Haruhi series right now, for example). I'd just like to see KyoAni have one project going per season. Back in 2011, KyoAni had exactly one project going on between Winter 2010/2011 to Fall 2011 - Nichijou (the K-On movie probably fits best in Winter 2011/2012). So one two cour project over four seasons. So even if they could add just one additional project per year that could make a huge difference. For example, back in 2011, that one extra project could have been a FMP sequel (airing in the Fall, say). This year, it could have been a Haruhi sequel. In 2013, it could have been Little Busters (Key probably would have waited that long if they had assurance that KyoAni could roll it out by 2013). So with a bit more production capacity, KyoAni could take on the Nichijous and the Hyou-Kas, and still have the ability to please their established Key, Haruhi, and FMP fans. As is, it seems like KyoAni is always forced to choose - More work appealing to fans of an established property, or more new projects; it seems hard for them to have a little bit of both. They tend to keep getting stuck with either leaving some of their fans out in the cold or not doing anything new/different at all, and that's a harsh and unfortunate choice to make, of course. Quote:
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But if you always choose the new property over Haruhi, then there's a risk of the Haruhi property losing popularity before it might if you had more anime material of it to help generate increased/sustained interest in it. Basically, my questions to you (and anybody else interested in answering it) is as follows: What's the end game here? Does Kadokawa have to exhaust its full list of properties before KyoAni gets to do more Haruhi? If so, does Haruhi ever get more animated material done? Are fans of the Haruhi anime just to be left out in the cold forever, in spite of how strongly they supported the show in huge sales for Haruhi 2006 and Disappearance (and even buying Haruhi 2009 in numbers that most studios would consider a hit)? At this juncture, if KyoAni/Kadokawa was to come out and say "There will be a new Haruhi show in 2015", I'd take that over what we have now. Yes, it would mean a long wait, but it would be something concrete at least. |
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Another note is that, unlike other studios that pay per cut, KyoAni animators are paid an hourly salary. They don't rush to finish shows so they have the time to put in quality work. Adding another show (without substantially increasing the amount of animators or outsourcing) would likely overwork those people, thus decreasing quality. A-1 and Shaft get away with multiple jobs because of outsourcing and paying per cut. It's not how KyoAni works, and that prevents additional works. Having said that, I think they could repeat what happened in 2008/2009. Instead of taking a Spring/Summer show, they likely continued to work on Clannad and finished After Story early. During the late fall/early winter/spring seasons, they then worked on Haruhi-chan/Churuya-san/K-On!/Haruhi 2009/[in quick succession, culminating in the Haruhi movie. Since K-On!! would be a sequel, the amount of animation pre-production work was significantly decreased, and they could animate it quickly. That's probably one of the main reasons why it came out and not Little Busters. Quote:
As for the Key works, due to the quick succession of them, I would imagine that TBS/Pony Canyon decided on those three first and then decided to do something new for K-On!. Unlike the Kadokawa works, I'm not as versed in these decisions, so I can't say anything concrete. I'd argue that a sequel to K-On! was the most likely choice to have something airing in 2010. It's rather strange how we've not heard anything about their next work. Quote:
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Next year, we will probably see what Kadokawa and KyoAni negotiated in 2011. By then, they will have seen the sales for Disappearance and know the printing numbers for Surprise. Lack of information regarding support for the franchise will not be a suitable excuse after that. Right now, the only information we have regarding a new work is their adaptation of Chuunibyou, which is standard for this time period. I can't find when K-On! was announced, but it was only in August/September 2008 when Haruhi was announced to be coming back (heavily hinted for the following year). We usually only know one/two works from them at one time. Again, thank you for moving to this thread, I feel more comfortable speculating here than in the DVD/BD sales thread and getting that more off-track. |
There is also the possibility that they don't want to animate more of the same. I know of plenty of artists and actors that pretty much refuse to do repeat work, as they consider it uncreative...even if it is surefire money. They do stuff for the art or creativity...not the money. (or they do stuff for the money, but can't generate any enthusiasm for repeat projects)
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I know it was a post from another thread, but Sunrise pretty regularly cracks the 20K+ barrier in BD/DVD sales. Practically every other season it feels of late, but then they're enormously huge and have access to what might as well be an unlimited source of capital and advertising venues compared to other studios so it's not exactly surprising. I think achieved it simultaneously with Gundam 00 and Code Geass as well. If not that then Gintama and Horizon or Tiger and Bunny. It's definitely happened at some point recently though. In any case it's definitely not a phenomenon unique to Kyoani by any stretch.
As for expansion talk, why Kyoani doesn't expand it's operation already though is beyond me. They don't need to have like 8 different studio buildings like Sunrise or whatever, but they can at least follow their example and maybe divide themselves up into distinct teams to try and hone their craft and generate ideas in more focused groups AND maybe have some more diversity in the types of shows they produce as a result if they ever start thinking about trying to branch out more from the hardcore moe crowd. They could also consider going public or perhaps seeking a merger with Kadokawa since it almost seems like they work with them already. |
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Kadokawa is a publishing giant, and their priority is to create popular properties that can be exploited in various ways. Brand building is more important than the anime itself. Pony Canyon is a CD/DVD distributor (and the parent company is a TV station), so their focus is more narrow. They don't own the K-ON! or AIR/Kanon/Clannad properties. Quote:
As for expansion, the company is always growing little by little. In terms of training, they're doing a lot more than most of the industry (KyoAni hires people on an exclusive, full-time basis, so they invest a lot in training), but it takes time to produce highly skilled animators. |
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The KyoAni/Pony Canyon alliance is definitely stronger... the K-ON! movie will obliterate the sales of the Haruhi movie... just like it did @ the box office.
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Yeah man, love how SHAFT animated all of Maria Holic, Denpa, Vampire Bund, Soredemo Machi wa Mawatte Iru, Natsu no Arashi! & Arakawa Under the Bridge. ("Bu-bu-but most of them got 2 seasons!" Oh just like FMP and Haruhi did?) Also SHAFT are nowhere near generally high quality work. Quote:
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Sunrise is primarily a production planning agency with several affiliated semi- independent studios. They end up getting involved with many different anime as their core business is project management. However a lot of the actual production get's done by subcontractors. |
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1) I was speaking personally. The SHAFT properties I've followed the most are the Monogatari series and Madoka Magica. Basically, the SHAFT equivalent (sales success-wise) to KyoAni's K-On! and Haruhi. Is there any doubt that SHAFT will animate the Monogatari series to completion? I really don't think there is. 2) I'm pretty sure that at least a couple of those you listed bombed. If a show bombs, there's less reason to expect to see its source material animated to completion. I accept that. It's when a show sells incredibly well, and it still doesn't get a sequel in spite of having a passionate fanbase/customerbase that things are much harder for some of us to accept. Quote:
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Far less popular shows than Haruhi have had 3 or more seasons. If Zero no Tsukaima can get 4 seasons, and animated to completion, then there is no good reason why Haruhi shouldn't receive similar treatment. If animators at other studios have to do repeat work when the market demands it (and they do), then so should animators at KyoAni. |
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For my own selfish reasons, though, there's nothing I'd rather see from them right now than more Haruhi. |
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If KyoAni was really going experimental - Doing something like the current Lupin anime, say - I could kind of see your argument, even if I didn't fully agree with it. But as is, it doesn't resonate that much with me. Quote:
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If (and it is if) they are taking an artists view point in how they animate things, they have every right to not make anymore if they don't want to. They don't own the fans anything except quality work in whatever they do.
There have been actors, directors, artists, and others that refuse to do repeat work. Actors that will never play the same role twice on screen (or do a second run of a play). Directors that refuse to make sequels because they fell the second one could never stand up to the original, or that it would "belittle their master work". There are artists that don't do the same thing over again because it is boring to them. They like to do new things...all the time. Even when offered obscene amounts of money. So much that their friends and enemies think they are crazy for refusing that kind of money. There are also the "starving artists" that are only starving because they refuse to do the kind of work that would make them money...even when they've done that work before. The overly creative types that won't do things for the money and only for the art. While Kyoto Animation probably is not in this boat, they so show a large amount of quality in their animation styles. In pretty much any KyoAni show, there is very little room to complain about their animation. Some complain about the art style in places, but not the animation. People complained about Nichijou for style of humor, pacing, and art style...but I don't think anyone could say it was poorly made in terms of animation. They went all out on that from all appearances with many over-the-top sequences. To the point were it seemed like they were gearing up for something else with all these different styles and techically challenges. Now Hyouka also has very good animation and the art style is smooth. Again people generally don't argue against KyoAni's animation abilities, nor do they usually argue against them when they start doing realistic backgrounds and settings. Attention to detail seems to almost be a hallmark of KyoAni and that is perfect for a mystery based anime where clues are visual much of the time. With their long list of Key works, K-On, and Haruhi, it is possible that either the artists/producers were just tired of looking at them over the course of years animating those thing, or the people that were key to those productions have since moved on to other companies. Same could be true for Full Metal Panic...but considering the author of that work is working for KyoAni in Hyouka and written multiple treatments of episodes for several of KyoAni's shows....one feels they want to make more of that, but just don't have a green light to do so. Plus I waited a very long time for a sequel and a remake to a series I enjoyed growing up. It will happen for whichever show it is you want it to be if it was very popular....eventually. |
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I think that SHAFT is a really bad example to bring up when arguing for KyoAni to expand or increase their productions. If anything, they work better as a reason against the case.
Consider this. The animation for the majority of SHAFT's productions are mostly outsourced, with few episodes of any given series actually done in house. Their work schedules are extremely bloated, with little to no lead time for the completion of the episodes (or in some cases, films) before their release, leading to results like the legendary incomplete episodes (Moon Phase, Bakemonogatari, and Himidari Sketch (the last one gets a special mention for the Mt. Fuji bit)), or the infinite delays for the Bakemonogatari (their best selling property, and yet they had delayed numerous times the series finale, and the BD releases, and the movie ...) or the Negima movie, where thanks to their poor schedule, they had to remove 20 whole minutes from the initial release of the film. Now I get that there is an annoyance with the nature of KyoAni's productions never reaching completion, and on some level I can sympathize and agree with the argument. As a fan, I would feel pretty pissed that my favorite shows end up getting stuck in limbo without any hope of seeing them to their conclusion. That said, KyoAni taking a page out of SHAFT's book would be the worst thing that could happen. I personally would not happy at all seeing them pulling the same crap that SHAFT does. Examples like JC Staff, Bones or Sunrise are much better and preferable IMHO. On why they decide to restrict their productions to so few, I think it might have to do with their teams seeking a more relaxed and comfortable working conditions, so that they give each work they do enough time and care to see it completion (as opposed to SHAFT's impossible working conditions and counter productive ''motivation'' of ''We must complete this before the dead line, since we have 5 more shows to work on later!''...). Is this the best way to go about thing? In some ways, it's good for the quality since like ultimatemegax had pointed out, it insures (or at least promotes) their team to place more effeort into their products. But on other fronts, it probably isn't the best way, since it doesn't allow for much room for experimentation with different shows and constantly forces them to play safe most of the time with targeting one crowd, as well as not being that good at planing for sequels. So why don't they expand then, to help with making things a bit more balanced? I think part of it is that their teams are more comfortable with how things are right now (they might be able to handle this level of work and not more without a clear drop in quality, or that they simply think they wont be able to gaunraty a constant string of hits over a long term period of time), and another part is that they might have some different plans for the future (Kaioshin mentioned that they might consider seeking a Kadokawa, which might be the next logical step for them ...) so expansion at this period of time might not be in the studio's future best interest. That all said, I'm sort of with Triple R on one point Quote:
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At least they aren't doing it like the old days of Studio Nue and Toei Animation during the 1970s. There are recorded instances of the animation studios delivering episodes and even films of Space Battleship Yamato on the day of release. The show aired at something like 8pm and they would delivered the show at 8am...sometimes without having the chance to review, nor correct errors. Or with the second roll of the film being developed while the first roll was being broadbast (TV movie).
They say some of that was due to the producer tending to rework eveything and loved meetings...thus they would lose time due to meeting after meeting and script revision after revision. |
I'm pretty sure Triple_R was talking about healthy expectation and anticipation and not entitlement of the kind you'd see surrounding say the whole Little Busters fiasco. Personally I think its perfectly reasonable to expect a follow up to hit franchises, it's when you start demanding and complaining when one doesn't immediately get one that I think is a problem. Unfortunately, and I think this is the root of the misunderstanding, this is a pretty frequent occurence when it comes to announcements of Kyoani announcements and non-announcements.
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As for little promotion, I'm shocked that could be said. There was promotion all throughout the 3 years in-between airings. From the announcement/video on 2007/7/7, the"second season cancelled, 'new animation' start!" image on 2007/12/18, the inclusion of a new key visual in April 2008's The Sneaker, the interviews in The Sneaker and Newtype through the summer of 2008, the announcement of Haruhi-chan/Churuya-san as new franchises, the promotion in February/March 2009's Newtype magazines, the promotion of the "re-airing" on obis attached to manga/novels, and so on. It may not have been publicized as much internationally, but it was really promoted when you look at it. If my tone comes off as harsh, I apologize. This "little promotional re-airing" bit is heavily false and keeps getting spread around. Quote:
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I myself would not want to see KyoAni go to be like J.C. Staff, Bones, or even Sunrise. Having to sub-contract a great amount of work outside leads to a lot of animation quality mistakes like what has happened with Natsuiro Kiseki's latest episodes or during the final stretch of Index II due to multiple projects at once. By focusing their intent on one project, there's no doubt it gets the attention it needs to be well-animated. With the increases in quality seen in K-On!! (somewhat arguable, but you can notice a huge shift from S1), Nichijou (especially in the animation portion), and Hyouka (again, focusing on hand-drawn animation), these works have shown the main reason why they've worked on one thing at a time. I'm eager to see how the Hyouka BDs look as it might be a rare show animated in 1080p similar to how Kanon was one of the first in 720p. Quote:
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Typically, when a narrative sells well, and there's clearly more story left to tell, people expect to see that story done to completion. And almost always those expectations are met. So this creates a precedent, and hence a right to expect that precedent to be followed. Simply put, why should Haruhi fans not get what ZnT fans get, or what Shana fans get, or what Natsume fans get? Why should Haruhi fans be treated worse than those other fans? There's a precedent in anime that when an anime based on a LN, manga, or VN sells well, you will usually see it adapted to completion, so anime fans have a right to expect that to be the case for their well-selling favorite properties. Like Kaioshin_Sama said, this is just healthy expectation and anticipation. It's perfectly reasonable and normal, and nobody should be faulted for it. So in that sense, yes, Haruhi fans have a right to expect to see more Haruhi. Quote:
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Part of the reason why I've compared KyoAni to SHAFT is because those two studios, unlike Sunrise, JC Staff, and Bones, have each developed their own distinctive visual style that you tend to see in all of their works (with slight variations of course). Not taking anything away from Sunrise, JC Staff, or Bones (all three have done some great work, especially Sunrise, imo), but when people think of KyoAni or SHAFT they do tend to think of a very specific animation/visual style. KyoAni and SHAFT also both strike me as "artsy" studios, for lack of a better term perhaps. I like how SHAFT doesn't feel to me like it's a "Factory Studio", even though its production output in some years is like that of a factory studio. SHAFT of course has its issues, as you alluded to. But even with them, I really like the overall direction that SHAFT has taken in over the past couple of years. SHAFT has built up two very high-profile properties (Madoka Magica and the Monogatari series) and has chosen to put a high priority on both. I like that approach. I think its a very fan-friendly approach. Basically, SHAFT now goes where their customers and fans want them to go. And that's a mark of a good entertainment company, imo. Quote:
And you're right, Haruhi played a strong part in making KyoAni what it is today. I dare say that a lot of people became KyoAni fans due first and foremost to Haruhi. Quote:
At a cold, pragmatic level, I get the reasons why KyoAni is doing what it's doing. But in my view, good companies at least sometimes put their existing fans/customers first, even if slightly greener pastures might conceivably be elsewhere. With that in mind, if we get more Haruhi within the next couple of years, most if not all of my complaints will disappear, and I'll become a happy camper. But if we never get more Haruhi, then I think Haruhi fans will have every right to be upset with KyoAni and/or Kadokawa. Hopefully it won't come to that. |
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