What are your thoughts on NC OP/ED spliced into the episode?
 

Hello friends. I come today with the following question. What do you think about replacing the OP/ED on a DVD/Bluray release with the non-credit version. This means for both normal and ordered chapter releases.

My opinion is that I'd much rather have the clean versions. And am working towards that.

as a leecher that do not understand the credits that are in japanese i prefer the non-credited OP/ED versions

If possible, it's always the better option. If you're good enough at reading Japanese to read the credits properly, you'd be watching the raw anyway. And less walls of text = better compressibility, especially in what usually is a high motion part of the video, the OP. Another option would be translating the credits, but I'll let TheFluff explain why that's pointless: http://mod16.org/hurfdurf/?p=16

From a moralistic perspective, the credited versions are better. If we're already stealing/infringing/copying/whatever their work, it's like adding insult to injury to strip the staff credits out of it. And I've always held the belief that hardsubbed content like staff credits (translated or not), fansubber credits/logos, and karaoke/signs are a reasonable trade-off that we as leechers should pay for free HQ anime.

But since I know hardly anybody cares about that stuff anymore... From a technical perspective, it doesn't matter if OP/ED are creditless or not, as long as the splicing doesn't cause playback glitches. While I do like reading things like VA credits, I suppose that info is available elsewhere. The only times creditless would be truly bad are:

* OP/ED sequences that look silly and "empty" without the credits, such as Azumanga Daioh.
* OP/ED sequences with subtle evolutions or changes that would be lost if they all used one form of the video.
* OP/ED that include relevant in-show content like episode titles, e.g. Stray Cat Overrun.

Good thing if the Credits are "59.94i" interlaced on a normal telecined Picture. Even better when the whole Anime without the "Moonspeak Runes" is cfr ....

I haven't any experience with ordered chapters yet(plan to experiment with them eventually, provided I manage to figure out how it works first...), but couldn't that be used to give the choice in this to the viewer? Right-clicking the Haali icon and choosing which edition to play?

This is irrelevant if you know what you're doing.

I STRONGLY prefer to watch anime the way it was released by the authors - ie with credits. NCOPEDs are always available to watch separately - which I do.

If you want to make your own anime - just make it for gods sake; don't mess up the stuff other people created.

First, you splice in NCOPEDs, then what? Will you start editing episodes? Like, if there is a boring (for you) dialog - let's just cut it out, right?

Or, if the episode has 2 arcs intertwined - let's cut and re-arrange the parts into 2 separate episodes - one per story arc?

If you want NCEDOPs - you can always use MKV feature called "editions" (together with chapters) to link in alternative parts from external files. Whoever wants smthing "special" - when playing, select the alternative edition and see NCOPEDs.

Again, if you feel like Yui - "I want to do something... but what should I do?" - do YOUR OWN thing, don't "improve" other people's creations!

ssme80383: dude, chill. No need to go gung-ho militant on us. If that's your opinion, that's fine, but don't make it out like you're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong. You must understand that 80% of fansub watchers can't READ the credtis, so it's useless to them. The part about "editing out" makes no sense, you realize that, right?

PS: I already slice in NCOP/ED, and lo and behold, I haven't edited out stuff form the anime... amazingly, neither has anyone else.

You realize NCOP/EDs are released as extras by the producers of a show? Judging by your post, you seem to think fans remove the credits, thus altering the author's intended viewing. How can something released by the official producer be altering how they intended it to be viewed?

As a fansubber with a fairly long history(nearly 20 years now) I would say leave the credits in. Add the creditless OP/ED to one of the episodes, like the first one, to the end of the episode. Then you don't have to make the effort in later episodes since it was pointed out that most folks don't watch the credits after the first episode or so.

Or you you can just release the files separately and folks who want to view them will. That's why they are on the DVD release usually, so someone who wants to watch the clean version can do so whenever they want.

I personally prefer the credits to be there even if I can't read them (I understand spoken Japanese better than I read it - kanji hard to read at show speeds). But a fansub group can do whatever they want and folks will decide based on what they prefer.:cool:

rds here

DmonHiro: dude, chill.

If you think that was gang-ho and militant, my friend, you have seen nothing!

I totally don't like you campaign to turn other fansubbers to do what YOU like. You are more than capable to splice whatever you want into whatever you want yourself. So just do it for yourself, don't drag everyone with you, fair 'nuf?

I did NOT say anything even close to that. You are seeing things. Read my post again. Wait... was it subconscious admission that you are 100% wrong? ;-)

Are you looking down on fansub watchers? Do you think YOU should decide what is usefull for them? I SURE HOPE it is NOT what you mean!

Ha! Yes you did edit stuff out! You edited out credits from the anime!

Oh really?
Substituted an animation sequence for the same animation sequence. The same content is there.
Now, I would say it's dumb replacing an OP or ED where the credits are integral to the animation (best examples I remember right now: ROD TV, Kamichu, current Hourou Musuko), but that's not the common case. If you want to know the credits, go look them up on AniDB or ANN.
No editing is being done: The same animation is present. Otherwise, how is the addition of subtitles, typeset signs or karaoke effects not also editing the original material?

Also let me ask your opinion on this: Fansubbers substituting an OP or ED sequence with the NC version, and then typesetting translated credits (the production studio's credits) on top of that.
I believe one group did that for HunterXHunter Greed Island.

Or how is it any worse that typesetting the fansubbing credits next to the production credits?

You should probably not hang out on a forum of pirates if you actually care about this.

1st of all, I'm honored you think I have the power and recognition to influence the major fansubbing groups in the world. Yes, it would be nice if I said "Do it like THIS", and all fansubers would go "Yes, your Highness!", but that's not going to happen (well, not until my conquest of central Japan is completed). Also, I see nothing wrong in suggesting something you want to people who can provide it. If I can convince a few people who release DVDs/BDs to splice in NCOP/ED, then that's great for me, but if not, that's OK. People are allowed to rip and release any damn way they please, and if I don't like it, too bad.

I have already sated my opinion:
1. The credits are useless for most anime watchers, since they cannot read them. This is a fact. If you cannot read something, it is useless to you.
2. Translating the credits is pointless, stupid, and creates screen clutter. IMO, so does romaji karaoke,for the same reasons, but I don't have my flame-proof coat on today, so I'll leave that alone.
3. The most important part of the OP/ED is the animation, not the credits. In fact, the credits get in the way of the animation.

Of course, this does not apply in some situations. There are shows in which the OP changes every so little each episode. Unless the DVD has the clean version of each one of those OP, I would not splice in the clean OP, because I would miss some details.

Anyone may agree or disagree with me, it is their right. I will keep doing things the way I want to do that, that is my right. And if others choose to follow me, praise be to Yevon.

Given the choice between http://i53.tinypic.com/fldqop.png and having that NC, I'll definitely take that NC.

NC versions should always be used unless:

a.) NC versions are unavailable
b.) The OP/ED directly interacts with the credits. For instance, Bakemonogatari OP2 has Mayoi's backpack spitting out credits.

Since otherwise they're just clutter.

This coming from someone who watches fansubs is laughably hypocritical.

I tend to splice in the creditless OPs/EDs, provided they're available for all variations of both OPs and EDs and it doesn't interfere with changing animation or something. It looks a bit silly to have a creditless OP but then an ED with credits, for example. In those cases, I tend to release the creditless versions in separate files.

Anyone who cares that much about the credits can go download a raw. You shouldn't need subs anyway if you can actually read the credits.

ssme80386: you sir, are mad. the way it was intended by the artists? im sure none of them really want scrolling text that nobody reads obscuring their work. true, there are cases where the creators have been creative in their methods of incorporating credits; thats just because they know how shit it looks to have walls of text splayed out randomly over their art.

if you care that much about preserving the original quality, start watching transport streams. make no mistake, the artists definitely intended for there to be commercials there, so make sure to pay attention to them.

@dmonhiro: pretty much whats been said so far: if it can be done seemlessly, then its a nice and easy thing to incorporate into your release. if not, just consider releasing it separately.

have to say i prefer the non-credited/clean version of the OP/ED, but you should do it the way you prefer, it's not like you are forcing people to download and watch it...

Yes, I'm sure anime production staff that works long hours for shit wages don't actually want to be credited in their work for their work :rolleyes:

...every day they dont get fired, they're getting credit for their work.

they do get credit, just not as individuals. nobody cares who drew the penguin in episode 4 of SZS; but they know that shaft did a great job on the show. if someone asks them what they do for work, they say they work at whatever studio; they dont say "what, you didnt see my name on tv last friday?"

It's also part of name recognition(personal name recognition) in the industry. It's a lot more than the juvenile reaction you are trying to characterize. And yes, someone cares who drew what, who did what audio, who did what scenic view. You need to learn/care a little more about the anime industry if you think no one does. Though it is obvious that you don't/won't. So sad. Such is how far anime "fandumb" has fallen. :(

I think that 90% or more of the viewers don't really care about each and every person who worked on a show. They'll sometimes know the various directors for each phase (animation, voice acting, etc.) and the overall series' director, the original creator, the studio and who writes the scripts. But can you honestly say you care about that one intern, who just happened to be the one who made sure the various computers used were in proper working order? Or the guy who animated one particular scene? Or even the guy who brought the director his coffee?

If I follow that train of thought, do you also look at ALL the credits when you go watch a movie to see if you recognize any names? Can you really say to anyone stuff like "I recognize that assistant producer" or "this scene was obviously filmed by this cameraman"? I'm willing to bet that even you don't care about all those people involved and would leave the theater right as the credits start rolling, or soon after (assuming you even go to a theater to watch movies). Director, producer, studio and main cast is usually as far as most people will go. I usually like to learn about the entire cast, but more than that is beyond something I care about.

Anyway, if they give NC OP/ED as a bonus with the DVD/Blu-Ray, why NOT use them? It's not like you paid for them anyway and you can usually turn them off if it truly bothers you. And how many people actually watch the OP/ED every single time? Unless they're really good, most people skip them after having seen them a few times, so they wouldn't even see the credits anymore.

Actually, I do watch all the credits when I go to a movie and sometimes at home as well. And occasionally I can recognize someone on the list of poeple in the credits.

You see, in the anime industry, and probably the entire entertainment industry, those credits are like a resume to everyone who worked on the show.

Oh, and I watch the ending credits most of the time on anime as well.

According to your theory here - why should they even bother with credits in the first place? Oh, well. As I said, sounds like this is today's "fandumb".:rolleyes:

If I want to know who was credited for some work, I visit ANN or AniDB. By the time non-credit versions become available, those databases have already been filled, and are surely a more convenient place to look.

since this is an opinion thread, i'll respond to yours. those credits are more of a thank you, in my mind, for the people that worked on the show. if thats right or wrong i dont know, and dont care to know. in any case though, i cant agree that credits are a resume, as you say, when they leave people off the list.

find me a staffing department that actually looks through the credits for the name of a person who did a specific job. please. enlighten me to the ways of the world.

oh those persnickety little whippersnappers, watching them fancy cartoons, not givin a hoot about all the hard work thats done just so they can laugh at a fart joke.

I cannot cure your "fandumbity" so I won't try. You yourself have just said you don't care and can't agree so you will remain either ignorant or stupid for the rest of your life. Ignorance can be cured...I hope you have a chance for the cure...

Now get off my lawn.:cool:

Pot. Kettle. Black. 'Nuff said.

With the current level of "fandumb" they probably don't even understand your reference.:rolleyes:

remain ignorant? of what? the names of people who created an anime? i fail to see the relevance to the rest of my life. if you are so convinced, than share your reasons.

to clarify, when i said i dont care if i was right or wrong about the reason behind credits, that was because the reason behind them is irrelevant; whether they're there or not is of no consequence to me. of this opinion, i could be easily swayed; provided there was a logical argument that gives me, an average consumer (the target market), reason to watch them.

[i kinda left the realm of the thread there, as the target market for most anime would actually be able to read the credits, which i cant.]
opinions are opinions right? even if someones self righteous enough to consider it fact. do try to "cure me" though, with some effort please.



question: when you go out to eat, do you prefer to be informed of all the staff present before or after your meal? maybe just the head chef beforehand, then the full list later on?

or perhaps, do you just go to the restaurant because it has what you like to eat, regardless of who's washing dishes that night?

It's going to be nearly impossible to "cure" someone who doesn't care and can't agree with me.

When we(Central Anime) were working with TokyoPop on Initial D, when they had the license, they had a contractual obligation to put our names in the credits. Much like an actor or simple gaff boy has a contract with a movie/TV production - their names must appear in the credits. It becomes a resume of sorts since they can show it to possible employers in lieu of contact with a particular past employer(of course info on how hard and good their work was can only be solicited through actual contact and letters of recommendation if more is needed) . Not to mention pride in their accomplishments. And since you say credits are irrelevant you will remain ignorant.(Oh, it's "then share your reasons" not "than share your reasons" - your ignorance and lack of education shine through with statements like that)

Food is irrelevant to this conversation. "Apples and Oranges" to say the least.:rolleyes:

So anyway, opinions aside, the credits do matter even if no one watches them 100% of the time. As for this thread putting in textless OP/ED is also irrelevant in the stated opinions of some since no one watches them after the first episode. So once the fansubber provides them once(say the first episode), he/she/they can leave the show as is with text OP/ED and no one but the most avid anime fan who actually cares more about the show than just a free download and thus watches the credits.

jesus fuck, you people need to learn how to just not get into these sorts of silly arguments about what these godlike creators of your precious Chinese cartoons want or care about. just drop it already, okay?

so, what you're doing is warez. yes, it is, even if some of you prefer to call it by some euphemism. just do whatever the fuck you want, it's not like they can stop you, and it seems extremely fucking unlikely to me that someone at some Chinese cartoon studio who actually knows about and is outraged by these filthy western pigs raping their work would be any less insulted because you left his name in it.

edit: also, there is basically nothing that is more satisfying and enjoyable than pissing off people who take their Chinese cartoons so seriously that they just have to go post on internet forums about how terrible it is that some people are REMOVING CREDITS! (just don't fucking download it if it pisses you off so much, dumbass. or you could, like, buy the fucking thing if you care so much)

I kind of doubt someone in the industry is going to bring a hard drive full of fansub rips to an interview to show their prospective employer what they've worked on.

More ignorance, and this time of the subject at hand.
WTF are you talking about? We are talking about the people who actually worked on the anime in the credits not some fansubber. Get with the program.:rolleyes:

Uh, I sure hope everything here have been agreeing that this discussion is about pirated copies replacing sequences containing credits, with sequences not containing credits.
I doubt anyone have been arguing that studios should make the non-credit versions the default on DVD, BD and TV releases.
This would only be a real issue if suddenly the only remaining copies in the world were pirated ones with the credits removed... what's the chance of that?

Heibi, I haven't seen any argument from you that explains why this is relevant for fansubs which are illegal copies in the first place.

That's because I wasn't talking about that. Someone said that the credits meant nothing. I was saying why they did. That is very relevant, even when talking about fansubs. We got our reputation, that had TokyoPop contact us, through fansubs, BTW.

So to the actual subject at hand:
But to be blunt, since it has been stated many times, why bother doing textless OP/ED when n one will watch them and don't care anyway. Waste of time for a fansubber to go through the trouble for something that no one will watch. And on that subject - if, as stated, no one watches the OP/ED and skips them why do fansub groups bother with karaoke? Seems like a waste of time the. From all the leechers who seem to complain about shows that don't have karaoke you'd be led to believe that they actually do watch the OP/ED. Hmmm, maybe the person who assumes no one watches the OP/ED is mistaken?

You're saying this as if it was a good thing...
(I guess you, in the true oldschool fansub "we're doing this to spread anime" fashion, let them have your translations for free? You done got hustled, son. Also, Tokyopop is terrible.)

If you actually did what people who watch fansubs wanted to you to do, you'd spam a billion translation notes everywhere, have gigantic AFX particle karaoke covering the entire OP/ED and leave as many random Japanese weeaboo terms as possible untranslated. I'm not kidding, this is what a pretty significant majority of people who watch fansubs actually prefer.

In other words, when in doubt, you should do what is likely to piss leechers off, not what they claim to want, and you're likely to end up with a pretty good fansub. In still other words, people who watch anime are in general pretty terrible people.

Oh, trust me I know that. The guy I was working with at TokyoPop was really hoping tings would turn out great for Initial D. However, after a whole bunch of meetings on the series and what he found out they'd be doing to it, he quit. But hey, we got official recognition, so oh well. Though the subbed script was massively changed.

And yes, I/We are truly old school. :cool:

Leechers these days have no idea how good they've got it.

looking back at the thread, i didnt actually give a reason for my supporting the NCOP/EDs. i would say compression, but generally disc releases appeal more to people that look to archive their fansubs, and those people generally pick the biggest filesize they can grab(filesize being the only real metric for visual quality). so other than just being able to say you used them, the only reason to go through with the very minor amount of effort is if you've got karaoke thats gonna eat up screen real estate.


an actual counterargument, backed by reason? now were getting somewhere. sounds like you actually do have a reason to care. people that are in the credits, or have been in the credits would obviously care more than people who just want to watch the show. you've lost the point of view that the consumer has, and thats why we feel differently about this. if my name was on the credit roll, even for the most menial task, i'd definitely want people to see that and take note. so yeah, i see your point.

none of the kids waking up early to watch cartoons have their names flashing by on screen though, and obviously neither do i; so i still stand by my point; to the consumer, credits are largely irrelevant.

really? you couldnt see the correlation? so not only do you not see the similarities between two industries that provide goods to a consumer that typically only cares about the end product, but you cant see the obvious similarities that exist between apples and oranges as well? all while calling me out for grammatical errors?

...thats just bananas. :meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh: :meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh: :meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh::meh: :meh::meh:

In the anime industry it is a contractual obligation. In the food industry, like McDonald's or some nice restaurant, they are paid minimum wage or more, by the hour with no contractual obligation from the company to give them credit, other than a paycheck. Big difference. The menu doesn't come with a cast list - considering that they usually have shift workers and anime production companies don't. I've been to A-Spot Studios in Tokyo - no shift workers. They all show up and work until closing time.(long hours) About the only thing similar is that they get paid to work and that's about it.

On U.S. releases I also like to look at the credits. I have folks I've collaborated with on fansubs go professional. Michael House(AnimEigo translator) and Paul England(Gundam 00 translator for Bandai). Thus, I like looking for names in the credits.

And you still made many grammatical errors in your post again - so I stand by pointing out your consistent bad grammar.:rolleyes:

And I'm guessing you insist that the restaurant staff not wear nametags at all because you don't care what their names are?

Anyway, to try and bring this back to the original topic just a bit... DmonHiro, if you prefer NCOP/ED for your own watching enjoyment, and you think adding NCOP/ED to your releases will make them better in general, then by all means do it.

Unless it's one of those "credits integrated in animation" shows (in which case there usually aren't NC versions to begin with), or if the NC versions take away episode-specific content, you won't get many if any complaints. Terrible anime-watching person that I am, I can't remember complaining about any spliced NCOP/ED outside of those two situations.