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-   -   The Philosophy of Code Geass (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=64670)

incorrupts 2008-12-28 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2131441)
Saying that someone is grey doesn't mean that he isn't a petty little bastard.

Then this does make him black if we want to play the rainbow game. There is good and bad and at some occasions there is in-between.
A lot of people in Geass were bad. Purely mean. There is no "grey" bastard. Please.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2131441)
Just because something is needed doesn't mean it is good.

Wrong. By the time something is needed, it means something else does not work. So this needed thing, needs to be inserted in order to keep balance. And this can only bring general good.

And frankly, people have the right to change. But they have to pay first for whatever they committed. Everything comes with a price. And one's freedom ends when it begins to encroach upon the rights of others, in whatever form that is. You pay the price, and after you are done with it, you get a clean slate to prove if you have changed your ways or not.

I guess Lulu gave everyone that clean slate cause there could not be other way for ZR to activate. Even though, this clean slate, a hell of a lot of people did not deserve it at all.

Dream_Traveller 2008-12-28 19:47

Nina's far from being perfectly innocent.

And...witnesses? Well, Cecile and Lloyd had to put up with her screaming "Fire FLEIA!"...

Nogitsune 2008-12-28 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by incorrupts (Post 2131493)
Then this does make him black if we want to play the rainbow game. There is good and bad and at some occasions there is in-between.
A lot of people in Geass were bad. Purely mean. There is no "grey" bastard. Please.

I already said that concepts like Good and Evil don't exist for me most of the time - it only applys to the most boring of stereotypes.

Quote:

Wrong. By the time something is needed, it means something else does not work. So this needed thing, needs to be inserted in order to keep balance. And this can only bring general good.
Hm. All right, maybe I should have used "perfect" here.
But it does not necessarily only bring good.

Quote:

And frankly, people have the right to change. But they have to pay first for whatever they committed.
Why?
If Nina goes unpunished but has changed, I don't see any problem with that.

Quote:

Everything comes with a price. And one's freedom ends when it begins to encroach upon the rights of others, in whatever form that is. You pay the price, and after you are done with it, you get a clean slate to prove if you have changed your ways or not.
And if someone doesn't "pay the price" or if someone who is not directly involved thinks that the price a former criminal paid wasn't high enough, then... what?
It doesn't hurt anyone that Viletta is leading a happy life now, just like it doesn't hurt anyone that C.C. wasn't brought before court.
And it also doesn't hurt anyone to let Nina go unpunished - thanks to Lelouch. Otherwise, people wouldn't have been too happy about it.

Quote:

I guess Lulu gave everyone that clean slate cause there could not be other way for ZR to activate. Even though, this clean slate, a hell of a lot of people did not deserve it at all.
Hm... maybe.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller (Post 2131496)
Nina's far from being perfectly innocent.

No one said that she was innocent.

Quote:

And...witnesses? Well, Cecile and Lloyd had to put up with her screaming "Fire FLEIA!"...
I doubt that Lloyd and Cecile, of all people, would tell anyone about that.

incorrupts 2008-12-28 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2131547)
I already said that concepts like Good and Evil don't exist for me most of the time - it only applys to the most boring of stereotypes.

ROFL Ok, just with this, this will be my last reply to you from now on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2131547)
Hm. All right, maybe I should have used "perfect" here.
But it does not necessarily only bring good.

Ahem, and? This brought nothing. It does not do any harm, instead it does at least something good. Period
Putting "necessarily" and stuff, does not make your weak argument stronger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2131547)
Why?
If Nina goes unpunished but has changed, I don't see any problem with that.

Spare the families pain and the lost lives. Sure thing. Sure.
I guess Viletta ruining Shirley's life {cause this we saw} and possibly killing a hell lot of Japanese civilians and she is now leading the baby-boom life is quite free-pass-fair as well. And yes, she may not harm anyone now, but past crimes just can't be erased like they never happened, for the love of Jesus.

Nogitsune 2008-12-28 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by incorrupts (Post 2131561)
ROFL Ok, just with this, this will be my last reply to you from now on.

*shrugs*
Fine with me.

Quote:

Ahem, and? This brought nothing. It does not do any harm, instead it does at least something good. Period
Putting "necessarily" and stuff, does not make your weak argument stronger.
Weak argument?
I was talking about how there is nothing wrong with people like C.C. (random example) not getting punished, because it doesn't harm anyone and because our system isn't perfect.
Therefore, I don't considere my argument "weak".

Quote:

Spare the families pain and the lost lives. Sure thing. Sure.
All the world's hatred was transfered to Lelouch.
Again, I'm not saying that this would work in real life, but we are talking about the philosophy of Code Geass here, and by the end of Code Geass, no one thought much about other people's wrong doings anymore.
That's the kind of world Lelouch created - you don't have to be happy with it, but as I see it, it's certainly there.

Quote:

I guess Viletta ruining Shirley's life {cause this we saw} and possibly killing a hell lot of Japanese civilians and she is now leading the baby-boom life is quite free-pass-fair as well. And yes, she may not harm anyone now, but past crimes just can't be erased like they never happened, for the love of Jesus.
I never talked about "erasing" something.
But... oh well. Let's leave it at that.

incorrupts 2008-12-28 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2131581)
*shrugs*
Weak argument?
I was talking about how there is nothing wrong with people like C.C. (random example) not getting punished, because it doesn't harm anyone and because our system isn't perfect.
Therefore, I don't considere my argument "weak".

Whut, whut? I was talking about Nina and because of her how many lives were lost. C.C is a SAINT compared to Nina, please. This is irrelevant.
And the system can get to work on a satisfactory level. Of course, if there are people that think there is no wrong, or right, then the system goes to hell. People are mean and good. And under certain environments, they get to express both of their natures. Too bad some people never get to find this "good-allow" environment and they only express the bad-self. Benefit of the doubt is NOT given in people that have taken others people lives. At least not before they pay.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2131581)
All the world's hatred was transfered to Lelouch.


A-a-and? S-s-o? What does this have to do with Nina's punishemnt?
Just because a man makes himself the scapegoat means everything else is butterflies and everyone gets automatically a clean slate? Are you frigging kidding me here? No srsly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2131581)
I never talked about "erasing" something.
But... oh well. Let's leave it at that.

And yet you did. Giving someone a free pass before he gets his right punishment, is erasing the past mistakes.

Charred Knight 2008-12-29 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2131581)
*shrugs*
Fine with me.



Weak argument?
I was talking about how there is nothing wrong with people like C.C. (random example) not getting punished, because it doesn't harm anyone and because our system isn't perfect.
Therefore, I don't considere my argument "weak".



All the world's hatred was transfered to Lelouch.
Again, I'm not saying that this would work in real life, but we are talking about the philosophy of Code Geass here, and by the end of Code Geass, no one thought much about other people's wrong doings anymore.
That's the kind of world Lelouch created - you don't have to be happy with it, but as I see it, it's certainly there.



I never talked about "erasing" something.
But... oh well. Let's leave it at that.

Theirs a difference between not getting punished and PRAISING A RACIST person.

While I hated the idea of all the people hatred being focused on Lelouch, that doesn't somehow remove her actions. Lelouch dying isn't going to bring those 10 million people back to life.

The philosophy of a series should be appilicable to real life, Okouchi much like Muzishima is trying to tell me something, and like Muzishima I have the idea that Okouchi must have failed history.

Vallen Chaos Valiant 2008-12-29 09:34

About the whole clean-slate...

That's the point, isn't it? That Lulu allowed people who ARE guilty to be forgiven, as the price to peace? Many people who gained happy endings in CG2, didn't earn it. But then, lynches and animosity is what holds peace back. The Federation was going to treat Britannia and Britannians as second-class citizens as a part of their retribution if they HAD won the war directly, and in many ways it is to be expected. But that would not bring peace.

It is exactly because Britannians did whatever they wanted, that they brought the ire of the world upon them. In the end, it is not what you want, but what you need, that's important. Ougi and Villetta were no saints, but it is exactly because there IS peace, that their Union is even possible. The world does not need lynch mobs, or revenge. The "score" does not need to be settled.

No, I am not happy about Ougi. But I actually think he knows full well that the man he betrayed was also the same man who gave him everything he ever wanted. He know he was wrong about Zero, and that's good enough for me.

As for Nina?

In the end, she was not so much a crazy murderer as much as a puppet. Her first bomb didn't even detonate. It would have ended there, had not Nina been taken under the wing of a Royal who told her everything she wanted to hear. She was just another scape goat, a confused child who did all the work in order for someone else to keep his hands clean. Far too many hundreds of people were involved in the Sakuradite bomb's construction, for Nina to be taking the blame on her own.
More than anything else, I feel sorry for Nina. So much talent, so much energy, but wasn't guided by the right hands. One way or another, death isn't something that will do her any good.

Nogitsune 2008-12-29 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by incorrupts (Post 2131605)
Whut, whut? I was talking about Nina and because of her how many lives were lost. C.C is a SAINT compared to Nina, please. This is irrelevant.

Well, Mao's life was lost because of C.C.
If you want to punish everyone for their crimes in Code Geass, then there won't be anyone left to do the punishing.

Quote:

And the system can get to work on a satisfactory level. Of course, if there are people that think there is no wrong, or right, then the system goes to hell.
I never said there was no right or wrong. Just that there is no Good and Evil - there's a difference.
But this "grey" thing doesn't have much to do with the matter of punishment. I originally brought it up in another context.

Quote:

People are mean and good. And under certain environments, they get to express both of their natures. Too bad some people never get to find this "good-allow" environment and they only express the bad-self.
Agreed.

Quote:

Benefit of the doubt is NOT given in people that have taken others people lives. At least not before they pay.
Are you talking about Nina here?
Because as long as you can't prove that she has told people to use her invention to kill someone, you will have trouble convincing the court that she has taken someone's life.
Her crime wasn't creating Fleya, even though it was a incredibly stupid thing of her to do. Her crime was telling people to use it in battle.

Quote:

A-a-and? S-s-o? What does this have to do with Nina's punishemnt?
Just because a man makes himself the scapegoat means everything else is butterflies and everyone gets automatically a clean slate? Are you frigging kidding me here? No srsly.
Don't take what I wrote out of context.
You said that the families of the people who were killed want Nina dead and that it hurts them if she isn't punished.
I pointed out that, after Emperor Lelouch, no one cares about what Nina did anymore.

Quote:

And yet you did. Giving someone a free pass before he gets his right punishment, is erasing the past mistakes.
Someone does not become innocent through punishment or a "free pass".
You can not erase someone's past. You can only give them the chance to move on - be it in a way similar to that Lelouch chose, or through making them atone for their sins first.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Charred Knight (Post 2132163)
Theirs a difference between not getting punished and PRAISING A RACIST person.

Agreed, but Nina was a very weak character in the beginning - afraid of everything, probably including her own shadow - and became someone much better than that in the end.
Since she became stronger, she probably wasn't a racist anymore. Her attitude was born from fear and insecurity, and I doubt it survived the aftermath of the Fleya incident.

Quote:

While I hated the idea of all the people hatred being focused on Lelouch, that doesn't somehow remove her actions. Lelouch dying isn't going to bring those 10 million people back to life.
Punishing Nina won't bring them back, either.
And that's all I'm saying.

Quote:

The philosophy of a series should be appilicable to real life, Okouchi much like Muzishima is trying to tell me something, and like Muzishima I have the idea that Okouchi must have failed history.
I agree that Okouchi could have made his message clearer.
The way it is, we can only guess.


Edit:
*agrees with Vallen Chaos Valiant*

ZingFreelancer 2008-12-29 10:01

We all can agree that Nina is less likeable character, be it in the beginning or in the end.

The world was based on racism towards numbers, so she hated and feared them. Then the world shifted and she had to shift to in order to fit in.
The whole part of her being stuck on avenging Euphy and causing even more death is pathetic effort. I can understand Suzaku being stuck up on vengeance, but not her.

Nogitsune 2008-12-29 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer (Post 2132446)
We all can agree that Nina is less likeable character, be it in the beginning or in the end.

Can we?
Yes, Nina was a quite pathetic character in the beginning. But I never disliked her - she was interesting, and that's all I care about in fictional characters.

Quote:

The world was based on racism towards numbers, so she hated and feared them. Then the world shifted and she had to shift to in order to fit in.
The whole part of her being stuck on avenging Euphy and causing even more death is pathetic effort. I can understand Suzaku being stuck up on vengeance, but not her.
I mostly disagree. And if you look at the two postings before yours, you'll have my reasons.
Nina didn't just want to "fit in". She truly wanted to become a better person... no matter how incredibly misguided and stupid her first attempts on that were.
And Euphie represented everything she wanted to be.

Vallen Chaos Valiant 2008-12-29 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2132459)
Nina didn't just want to "fit in". She truly wanted to become a better person... no matter how incredibly misguided and stupid her first attempts on that were.
And Euphie represented everything she wanted to be.

A big part of what Nina became in R2, was because of all the garbage Schneizel was feeding her. And each time, he told her "that's what Euphie would want you to believe".

And why wouldn't Nina believe him? Schneizel was Euphie's brother, shouldn't he know Euphie more than most? And the nice man was giving her nice dresses and all the funding she needs for her research, all for Euphie's sake...

Schneizel's actions were once defended by many posters on this forum for a long time. Some even suggested that he should become Emperor for there to be a happy ending, that he was somehow the only good guy in the show. Nina, Suzaku, and Ougi, at one point or another, had all became Schneizel's shield, blocking him from blame because they each made a spectacle of themselves and diverted attention away from the puppet master.

Schneizel was punished. Very severely might I add, by Lulu's standards. He became a servant of Zero for life, using his intellect to serve the world's protector against his will.

ZingFreelancer 2008-12-29 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant (Post 2132505)
Schneizel was punished. Very severely might I add, by Lulu's standards. He became a servant of Zero for life, using his intellect to serve the world's protector against his will.

Dont take that for granted, he serves Zero's Mask. Any one can put a mask on and act as Zero. Its only a question of time.

As for Nina, I never liked her. Even in the beginning of Code Geass, she was this kind of a girl who was away in her own world and never showed a connection to her Student Council friends.
She always was kind of emo

Vallen Chaos Valiant 2008-12-29 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer (Post 2132579)
Dont take that for granted, he serves Zero's Mask. Any one can put a mask on and act as Zero. Its only a question of time.

True, the "Zero" he work for might use his intellect for evil, but none the less the punishment remains. He will serve for evermore.

ZeroSama 2008-12-29 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant (Post 2132589)
True, the "Zero" he work for might use his intellect for evil, but none the less the punishment remains. He will serve for evermore.

Well except if Suzaku dies and no-one else takes up the mask. If theres no Zero, hes free from his enforced servitude(well atleast until someone becomes Zero) and if that happens.......:uhoh:.

ZingFreelancer 2008-12-29 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeroSama (Post 2132641)
Well except if Suzaku dies and no-one else takes up the mask. If theres no Zero, hes free from his enforced servitude(well atleast until someone becomes Zero) and if that happens.......:uhoh:.

That is highly unlikely to happen, Suzaku got a live on geass cast on him, so he "cant" be assassinated or killed. In terms of dying of age, Schneizel will be first one to go.
Unless Suzaku falls ill, but the modern medicine is probably at its best.

Dont know if Cannon (Schneizels servant dude) can do anything.

incorrupts 2008-12-29 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2132443)
Well, Mao's life was lost because of C.C.
If you want to punish everyone for their crimes in Code Geass, then there won't be anyone left to do the punishing.

Again, what? There is no comparison between C.C and Nina. It is a different thing to take's one life and another to cause a fucking genocide and get away with it cause "ZOMG YOU BECAME A STRONGER PERSON WHILE YOU WERE WEAK IN THE BEGINNING!!"
Sure.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogitsune (Post 2132443)
Punishing Nina won't bring them back, either.
And that's all I'm saying.

And? Your point? This does rid her of her punishment?

ZeroSama 2008-12-29 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer (Post 2132733)
That is highly unlikely to happen, Suzaku got a live on geass cast on him, so he "cant" be assassinated or killed. In terms of dying of age, Schneizel will be first one to go.
Unless Suzaku falls ill, but the modern medicine is probably at its best.

Er he can be asassinated and killed. His live on geass only stops him from going suicidal(which isn't a problem anymore since he has accepted living as his punishment) and pushes him to his limits. If someone wants Suzaku dead and they don't care about the collateral or cost then Suzaku will die. No ifs, ands or buts.

Kallen beating him in EP 19 and tieing against him in EP 25 of R2 clearly shows that he's not invincible when faced with either a clearly superior opponent and/or pilot.

Throw in numbers as well and...:uhoh:.


I'm not saying it will happen since the possibility is slim but its not non-exsistant.

Charred Knight 2008-12-29 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant (Post 2132428)
About the whole clean-slate...

That's the point, isn't it? That Lulu allowed people who ARE guilty to be forgiven, as the price to peace? Many people who gained happy endings in CG2, didn't earn it. But then, lynches and animosity is what holds peace back. The Federation was going to treat Britannia and Britannians as second-class citizens as a part of their retribution if they HAD won the war directly, and in many ways it is to be expected. But that would not bring peace.

It is exactly because Britannians did whatever they wanted, that they brought the ire of the world upon them. In the end, it is not what you want, but what you need, that's important. Ougi and Villetta were no saints, but it is exactly because there IS peace, that their Union is even possible. The world does not need lynch mobs, or revenge. The "score" does not need to be settled.

No, I am not happy about Ougi. But I actually think he knows full well that the man he betrayed was also the same man who gave him everything he ever wanted. He know he was wrong about Zero, and that's good enough for me.

As for Nina?

In the end, she was not so much a crazy murderer as much as a puppet. Her first bomb didn't even detonate. It would have ended there, had not Nina been taken under the wing of a Royal who told her everything she wanted to hear. She was just another scape goat, a confused child who did all the work in order for someone else to keep his hands clean. Far too many hundreds of people were involved in the Sakuradite bomb's construction, for Nina to be taking the blame on her own.
More than anything else, I feel sorry for Nina. So much talent, so much energy, but wasn't guided by the right hands. One way or another, death isn't something that will do her any good.


PUPPET?
Where the people who where in charge of the Concentration camps puppets as well? It's not their fault their being controlled by Hitler!

Nina wasn't confused she wanted to commit genocide on the Japanese people! Your doing nothing but making excuses for an action that is inexcusable, she nearly caused the end of the world with her racist beliefs.

If Lelouch'd death did all that than why was Schneizel brainwashed, where his clean slate?

Vallen Chaos Valiant 2008-12-29 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charred Knight (Post 2132858)
PUPPET?
Where the people who where in charge of the Concentration camps puppets as well? It's not their fault their being controlled by Hitler!

Nina wasn't confused she wanted to commit genocide on the Japanese people! Your doing nothing but making excuses for an action that is inexcusable, she nearly caused the end of the world with her racist beliefs.

If Lelouch'd death did all that than why was Schneizel brainwashed, where his clean slate?

The end of the world "nearly happened" all the time. That's no excuse to act on your emotions. It is the same reason why Britannia was suppose to be enslaved as "punishment" for enslaving others. That would means the masters and slaves changed places, but the world would just continue with the turmoil.

There was no excuse for what the Britannian people did as a whole. Would you like to punish them too? Making them slaves, perhaps? That's would just repeat every mistake all over again.

And I said Schneizel was punished unusually harshly for a reason. But then, he still lived. And the only reason to Geass him is to use his intelligence for the greater good, as it was a waste otherwise.

At some point, you have to decide if you wanted peace at all, or if you just want retribution and war. And no, you can't have both.


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