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-   -   Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=119622)

jeroz 2013-05-21 07:54

Keep in mind that while Alliance and Hideazu are in constant conflict with each other, Gargantia and WhaleSquid rarely cross paths. As they''d said in this episode, they rarely comes this close to the surface if at all. The only time they will get in contact with each other is when the unlucky divers gets too close to them. Otherwise if they are just doing their usual business there's no need to worry about them. Even Bellows are not fazed when one WhaleSquid was around. She just does her own business and only become flustered when Ledo started to fight it.

Seriously, if you see a massive herd of elephants running in your direction, I doubt anyone won't be scared.

Obelisk ze Tormentor 2013-05-21 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamster (Post 4690586)
Um...are you guys seeing what I'm seeing?
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a30...ps29dd1a60.jpg

:eyespin:

^ I am. I never thought that it resembles something very familiar :twitch:.

andyjay729 2013-05-21 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor (Post 4690596)
^ I am. I never thought that it resembles something very familiar :twitch:.

Hoo boy.

I'm surprised there haven't been any jokes about Ledo being the hero Gargantia deserves, but not the one it needs right now (though they might later). Of course, Gen doesn't seem to favor honor-bound hero archetypes (remember Sayaka).

Jan-Poo 2013-05-21 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Maw (Post 4690590)
I agree in general, however going by ep1 it does seem the Hideauze go after anything with energy (you can see them eating planet I think). So I get the feeling these beings live by instinct rather than intelligence. Of course the space bugs may just be more hostile by nature compared to them water bred cousins.

Going by the usual Nausicaa comparison the insects attack human villages indiscriminately, often massacring innocents whose only fault is to be near the "bad guys"

It seems that the Hideauze aren't different. For example in this episode Ledo started the attack on that whalesquid. Supposing that the whalesquid wasn't hostile to begin with, it would be Ledo's fault for initiating a fight, however the whalesquid decided to attack Bellows just because she happened to be another human near the one that was attacking him.


In other words there is no doubt that the Hideauze are mindless and very aggressive creatures, but just like the Ohmu in Nausicaa it might be that their ultimate purpose is good.

Anh_Minh 2013-05-21 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 4690550)
Hold your horses Anh, you're going too far.

Amy thinks that Ledo is wrong and she has all the rights to speak her mind and try all that she can to persuade him to change his mind, provided she doesn't resort to violent methods.

Letting people do whatever they want without even protesting even if you think they are making a very big mistake is not how a friend should act.

All I've heard from her and her brother is "stay with us, be like us". So, yes, she's demanding him to give up who he is. It's not about right or wrong. It's about conforming to Gargantia rather than the GA.


Quote:

As for Ridget she had the rights to stop Ledo from taking actions that would have effects on the whole fleet. Until proven otherwise he is a soldier stranded in a foreign country. He must respect the local authority or leave.
Which is why he proposed to leave. And pointing a gun at him? She's just lucky he didn't classify her as an ally to the Hideauze right there and then.

Quote:

Think it in these terms. Imagine a french soldier in Swiss soil during world war II. Sure Nazi are evil all that you want, but does that soldier has the right to initiate hostilities in a foreign soil that declared neutrality?
Yeah, but if the soldier wants to leave, why get in his way?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Maw (Post 4690552)
Very good episode, last week and this has been a more welcome return to form.

The best part of this episode is that we now get a better idea of conflict between the Alliance and Hideauze. Rather than being mortal enemies it's about resources; the Hideauze feed the energy the Alliance needs to live, thus a natural conflict of interests occurred.

Looking at this in a broader more symbolic prospective, I think the Alliance and Gargantia represent two different paths Humanity has chosen in response to these creatures. The humans of Alliance continued their technological advances to better their life and ended up in an large scale war with the Hideauze. The Gargantians on the other hand abandoned that way and became submissive to Hideauze instead, living a harder by more peaceful life. Which way was the right decision? It's hard to say for since both groups had to make hard sacrifices for the way they live now.

Except the "choice" of the Alliance isn't between conflict with the squids and life as a primitive, it's between conflict with the squids and death by space (cold, heat, radiation, asphyxia...).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 4690577)
Depends on the technology advancement. If it turns out that the Hideauze only target technologies that are bad for the environment then it's a whole different story.

Define "bad for the environment" In Space.

Heck, good or bad are human constructs. Is the disappearance of the dodo a tragedy? What about the disappearance of the dinosaurs? We're not guilty of that.

yankky5 2013-05-21 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamster (Post 4690586)
Um...are you guys seeing what I'm seeing?
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a30...ps29dd1a60.jpg

:eyespin:

.... nice cheeks?? :twitch:

Obelisk ze Tormentor 2013-05-21 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 4690733)
And pointing a gun at him? She's just lucky he didn't classify her as an ally to the Hideauze right there and then.

Anh, don’t you know the the situation of what, why, where & when the event took place? The Whalesquids were right beneath the fleet. A considerable noise and spark of energy will most likely trigger those beasts to attack Gargantia. At that critical moment, Ledo is making a ruckus and wants to fight the squids right there and then, so Ridgett was pointing a gun at him to shut him up (since words obviously couldn’t do it. Look at Amy). Ledo, as smart as he is, was able to understood Ridgett and the risk they're facing. Thus, he's willing to stand down and cooperate at that moment. The “pointing a gun” event is as simple as that.

Anh_Minh 2013-05-21 10:19

I remember. I still think she crossed a line. Lelouch could have done it without pointing a gun at Ledo. He'd have pointed a gun at himself, which would have worked just as well.

Jan-Poo 2013-05-21 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 4690733)
All I've heard from her and her brother is "stay with us, be like us". So, yes, she's demanding him to give up who he is. It's not about right or wrong. It's about conforming to Gargantia rather than the GA.

Disregarding the fact that "demand" is an excessive term in my opinion in this case, since it implies some kind of order, is it really wrong for them to ask that?

For example is it wrong to ask Japan to stop hunting whales? Or to ask certain African countries to abandon infibulation?

Yeah it may be that in the end it's asking them to conform to different values from their own, but what if their values are wrong? Should those be accepted just because it's their "culture"?
I say no.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 4690733)
Which is why he proposed to leave. And pointing a gun at him? She's just lucky he didn't classify her as an ally to the Hideauze right there and then.

Yeah, but if the soldier wants to leave, why get in his way?

I agree that she shouldn't have pointed a gun at him right away.

However there is still no indication that they forbid him to leave. It seems that Fairlock doesn't want to let Flange go (which I don't think is fair) but that doesn't mean the same applies to Ledo since he never signed a contract.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 4690733)
Define "bad for the environment" In Space.

Heck, good or bad are human constructs. Is the disappearance of the dodo a tragedy? What about the disappearance of the dinosaurs? We're not guilty of that.

In space probably nothing, on colonizable planets where life exists, is an other issue though.

It seems that the major problem of the alliance is that they can't find a planet to colonize, hardly credible considering how huge the milky way is. I think it's likely that the Hideauze claimed them first.
I don't think there would even be a war if they weren't competing for those.


Regarding your second point, you don't need to go philosophical to determine what is "bad for the environment" and what it's not. Objectively speaking everything that disrupts the ecosystem and causes mass extinctions is bad for it (or at least for the animals involved, we know that they want to live right? It can't be "good" for them). That includes natural events of course.

Obelisk ze Tormentor 2013-05-21 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 4690764)
I still think she crossed a line. Lelouch could have done it without pointing a gun at Ledo. He'd have pointed a gun at himself, which would have worked just as well.

Well, that’s what you think. But even Ledo understood why she did that. If he didn’t, he would’ve ordered Chamber to zap Ridgett and her guards. After that, all hell will break loose for everyone (Squids vs Gargantia, Ledo/Chamber vs Squids, Gargantia vs. Ledo/Chamber) :heh:. Thank god that didn't happen.

Anh_Minh 2013-05-21 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 4690766)
Disregarding the fact that "demand" is an excessive term in my opinion in this case,

She was pretty forceful, though...

Quote:

since it implies some kind of order, is it really wrong for them to ask that?

For example is it wrong to ask Japan to stop hunting whales? Or to ask certain African countries to abandon infibulation?

Yeah it may be that in the end it's asking them to conform to different values from their own, but what if their values are wrong? Should those be accepted just because it's their "culture"?
I say no.
Sure, they can ask. Though I'd say in this case, it's not about "values". It's about loyalty. They want him to betray the GA so they can keep their easy lives.

Quote:

I agree that she shouldn't have pointed a gun at him right away.

However there is still no indication that they forbid him to leave. It seems that Fairlock doesn't want to let Flange go (which I don't think is fair) but that doesn't mean the same applies to Ledo since he never signed a contract.
They forbade it when she pointed a gun at him. That interdiction's not in effect anymore, but she still got in his way.

Of course, a lot of that unpleasantness could have been avoided if they'd just talked beforehand... (Talk as in "also listen what he had to say", instead of looking down their noses at him.)
Quote:



In space probably nothing, on colonizable planets where life exists, is an other issue though.

It seems that the major problem of the alliance is that they can't find a planet to colonize, hardly credible considering how huge the milky way is.
That really depends on how rare planets that not only sustain life, but are habitable for humans are. We don't know that.

Quote:

I think it's likely that the Hideauze claimed them first.
I don't think there would even be a war if they weren't competing for those.


Regarding your second point, you don't need to go philosophical to determine what is "bad for the environment" and what it's not. Objectively speaking everything that disrupts the ecosystem and causes mass extinctions is bad for it. That includes natural events of course.
Meh. Why? For the most part, it just creates another norm, in which different creatures will prosper. The dinosaur extinction was bad for them, but ultimately good for us. On a planetary scale... do those things matter?

aohige 2013-05-21 10:47

Well, I think we're led to believe Hideauze nested near our sun to munch on it, causing the great feeze over.

I mean, considering the nature of the beast, that's the usual suspect.

And if that comes out to be true, and they're keeping tabs on humans on Earth, I'd say they're pretty much the enemy to humanity.

We may get information later to prove otherwise, but from what we know as of now..

Triple_R 2013-05-21 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 4690733)
All I've heard from her and her brother is "stay with us, be like us". So, yes, she's demanding him to give up who he is. It's not about right or wrong. It's about conforming to Gargantia rather than the GA.

Two points:

1. Are they in Gargantia or are they in the GA? There's an old saying of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". There's practical reasons for that old saying.

2. Given what Amy and Bevel have learned about the GA, can you really blame them? :heh:


I have a tendency to overuse Madoka Magica analogies when evaluating other anime shows, so I was going to skip over a thought I had, but since andyjay729 hinted at something very close to it...

Spoiler for Gargantia/Madoka Magica comparison:

Hamster 2013-05-21 10:57

She lowered her gun when the sexy ass squid swarm left. She mostly wanted him to shut up and sit tight for a minute so they won't get obliterated. Ledo understood that.

Immediately classifying her as an enemy just for that act is what an alien squid/xenomorph would probably do.

The top brass would not take action if Ledo decides to leave afterwards, they know they can't do anything about it anyway.

EDIT:
Bellows wanted Ledo to stay because he has become a friend and part of the community, and probably already considered as family. Jeezus how hard is that to understand?

Kanon 2013-05-21 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Maw (Post 4690552)
Eh, honestly I don't really like this idea because it would suggest technology advancement is bad. This is more complex issue then that imo, besides despite what the Gargantians might say, they aren't really living in co-existence with the Whitesquid/Hideazue anyway. They're living in fear of them, to point where most of the population treats those sea creatures as religious icons. However considering that they have no real effective means to fight them and are more or less completely dependent on them for survival I can understand why. I can also why see those of the Alliance would not like this either.

This isn't necessarily the message. We don't know for sure whether Ledo is right yet. He might be off about the Hideauze's reasons for not attacking. We don't know what kind of technology the Hideauzes are protecting underwater either or if they're even protecting these particular areas on purpose. It's too soon to draw conclusions. Some Gargantians fear the Whalesquids because they can become dangerous if you piss them off (like a lot of other animals), but this isn't the same as living in fear of them. Most of the time they have absolutely nothing to fear from them and are co-existing with them just fine. Humans leave the squids alone, and the squids leave the humans alone. This is also a form of co-existence. It's a lot better than their "co-existence" with the pirates...

Now, if it turns out the Hideauzes are purposely preventing the technological advancement of humans and are planning to destroy them if they become too dangerous for their taste then I agree humans shouldn't just accept this and bend over. This wouldn't be co-existence, but the Hideauzes lording over them. Even if the Hideauzes had a good reason to act that way like the Anti-spiral in Gurren Lagann, it would still be hard to swallow. This would make for a very bitter ending to me.

We can speculate based on the hints, but we don't have enough information to conclude for sure what the Hidezauzes' intentions are. I'm sure Ledo firmly believes what he's saying but I don't trust the Alliance since they seem to have a habit of brainwashing their soldiers. It's easier for a soldier to give up his life if he believes his cause is just. I can't dismiss the possibility that what Ledo thinks he knows about the Hideauzes might be a complete lie.

bones 2013-05-21 11:15

But they are living in fear of them, they turned off everything and told everyone onboard to stop whatever they're doing and make no noise whatsoever. It's like they were diving into the nearest hole they could find, hoping that the monster prowling nearby doesn't notice them. I don't think that's how true co-existence is supposed to work

Jan-Poo 2013-05-21 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 4690787)
She was pretty forceful, though...

Sure, they can ask. Though I'd say in this case, it's not about "values". It's about loyalty. They want him to betray the GA so they can keep their easy lives.

I prefer the term "assertive" for Amy. Bevel however wasn't even that.

As for the "betraying" issue. There's a lot I'd have to say about that.

First: The alliance abandoned Earth, unlike the ancestors of the current earthlings. The alliance doesn't have any rights to dictate their agenda on a territory that belongs to another faction.
Of course they probably won't give a rat ass about that, but they'd be decidedly at fault here in my opinion.

Second: Ledo is not acting like a soldier, that's just an excuse. A soldier primary duty is to obey orders not to kill the enemy. If the orders say that they must cease fire, they cease fire, even if the enemy is in front of them.
The last order that Ledo received was to retreat, that implied abandoning the assault operation.
In his current state all that Ledo is supposed to do as a soldier is waiting for further instructions. Chamber himself told him that he should just return to cold sleep until the alliance comes.
So in a few words Ledo is acting on his own accord, and beyond what his duties requires from him.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 4690787)
They forbade it when she pointed a gun at him. That interdiction's not in effect anymore, but she still got in his way.

She forbade him to attack whalesquids right next to their fleet. That's absolutely legitimate considering that the whalesquids would most likely retaliate on the fleet.

Frankly speaking, Ledo can go whenever he wants and Ridget isn't so stupid to not realize that. Once Ledo enters inside Chamber's cockpit there's no stopping him. If she really wanted him to stay, she would have put him under arrest.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 4690787)
Meh. Why? For the most part, it just creates another norm, in which different creatures will prosper. The dinosaur extinction was bad for them, but ultimately good for us. On a planetary scale... do those things matter?

Well yeah... "Mors tua vita mea", if my neighbor dies there's more food and space for me, but does that make it "right"?
Perhaps a mass extinction event would benefit some other species in... "just" a few million years, but perhaps it's better overall if the extinction event never happened to begin with since that is certainly better for most species that already existed.

The Hideuze likely follow that principle. Actually we also do. We prefer to make it so the current ecosystem survives as it is and it matters very little that another one could exist in its place.

Shinhwa 2013-05-21 11:26

I feel the influence of tragedy by urobutcher is slowly approaching...

Hamster 2013-05-21 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by bones (Post 4690819)
But they are living in fear of them, they turned off everything and told everyone onboard to stop whatever they're doing and make no noise whatsoever. It's like they were diving into the nearest hole they could find, hoping that the monster prowling nearby doesn't notice them. I don't think that's how true co-existence is supposed to work

In this case it does work. The rats coexist with the with the wolves by stealing scraps at night and staying out of sight.

Kanon 2013-05-21 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by bones (Post 4690819)
But they are living in fear of them, they turned off everything and told everyone onboard to stop whatever they're doing and make no noise whatsoever. It's like they were diving into the nearest hole they could find, hoping that the monster prowling nearby doesn't notice them. I don't think that's how true co-existence is supposed to work

If this was something that happened regularly and they constantly worried about it, I'd agree with you. However, this was apparently a very rare event, one guy mentioned he had never even heard of whalesquids swimming so close to the surface. If I came across, say, a bear in a forest, I'd do the same thing as them. Doesn't mean I live in fear of bears.


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