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-   -   Steins;Gate 0 - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=152128)

monir 2018-09-05 12:25

Steins;Gate 0 - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll
 
Welcome to the discussion thread for Steins;Gate 0, Episode 20.

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Marina2 2018-09-05 13:57

Huh...wait....so in 2036 they put Okarin (who has been in Coma state since 2025) in time leap machine and sent his memory back to his comatose body 24 hours the past to wake him up....???

Why does his memory is from 2011 instead of 2025? I meant he was awake from 2011-2025 right?

Klashikari 2018-09-05 14:27

^ The anime scenarists probably took the same logic as the game, although using the time leap machine instead of the reading steiner, which didn't fix the "blind spot" time period in any version of SG0.

As far as I can tell, it is mostly done in order to confuse and make the audience as puzzled as Okarin once he is awake in 2036.
We basically followed the perspective of the "digitalized" version of Okarin which was stuck in the time leap machine that failed to send him to the past (which is kind of silly since the creation of the time leap machine was supposed to be part of the attractor field in the Beta world line too with Maho). So we never got the perspective of the "original" Okarin who was alive from 2011 to 2025.


Anyway, I didn't make any comment for a while to see what the scenarists were trying to do. While I understand the scenarists tried to elevate Okarin's impetus to save Kurisu by adding Mayuri in the mix, this really affected the pace of V&A part, but also provoke some major inconsistencies.
That's pretty much the reason why I was worried about a possible "merge" of the routes, and the result isn't exactly satisfying in my books.

Kanon 2018-09-05 16:45

Ruka turned into such a badass. And Daru looks pretty awesome himself. The girls, on the other hand, didn't change one bit :heh:

The ending implies Okabe will use the time leap machine to get back to 2011, but how can it possibly let him travel this far into the past? Maho could have perfected it, but in that case would they really need the time machine? It's not like the time leap machine only works on Okabe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marina2 (Post 6274141)
Huh...wait....so in 2036 they put Okarin (who has been in Coma state since 2025) in time leap machine and sent his memory back to his comatose body 24 hours the past to wake him up....???

Why does his memory is from 2011 instead of 2025? I meant he was awake from 2011-2025 right?

No, that's not what happened. Daru found Okabe's memory data from his previous failed attempt at time leaping (last ep, so in 2011) inside his old computer, and then sent that data to his comatose body in 2036. His memory is from 2011 because that was the only back-up they had.

AC-Phoenix 2018-09-05 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari (Post 6274148)
^ The anime scenarists probably took the same logic as the game, although using the time leap machine instead of the reading steiner, which didn't fix the "blind spot" time period in any version of SG0.

As far as I can tell, it is mostly done in order to confuse and make the audience as puzzled as Okarin once he is awake in 2036.
We basically followed the perspective of the "digitalized" version of Okarin which was stuck in the time leap machine that failed to send him to the past (which is kind of silly since the creation of the time leap machine was supposed to be part of the attractor field in the Beta world line too with Maho). So we never got the perspective of the "original" Okarin who was alive from 2011 to 2025.


Anyway, I didn't make any comment for a while to see what the scenarists were trying to do. While I understand the scenarists tried to elevate Okarin's impetus to save Kurisu by adding Mayuri in the mix, this really affected the pace of V&A part, but also provoke some major inconsistencies.
That's pretty much the reason why I was worried about a possible "merge" of the routes, and the result isn't exactly satisfying in my books.

It's not just an inconsistency, it's totally illogical because if she is actually dead, several significant things would change too (like Mayuri's relationship with Kagari and all its consequences), yet there was no Reading Steiner,or change in the timeline.

---
Also don't tell me Okabe is now actually going to jump back 109'500 times just to make it back to 2011...And that's not even counting leap years...
((365 x 24) x 25years) / 2
(I originally wrote 219'000, but then remembered that they can jump back 48 hours and not just 24; Hence /2 )

Kanon 2018-09-05 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix (Post 6274182)
It's not just an inconsistency, it's totally illogical because if she is actually dead, several significant things would change too (like Mayuri's relationship with Kagari and all its consequences), yet there was no Reading Steiner,or change in the timeline.

Nobody answered me in the previous thread but my understanding is that the time machine creates a new worldline when it's used to avoid any time paradoxes. When Suzuha used the time machine, the worldline changed from one where the time machine was never used to one where it was. Which of course had consequences and altered the future she knew. In his D mail, Daru even said he wasn't from her future.

The main hole in that theory is that Suzuha disappears when Steins Gate is reached.

Klashikari 2018-09-05 19:35

Every single time Suzuha travels back in time, she indeed goes back in another world line that is very slightly different from the one she originated from (the divergence meter usually indicates a difference around 0.0000x), and the differences can be nearly nonexistent, or bigger like what happened with that Daru sending the message. As such, those world lines are still part of the same attractor field.

However, when a drastic change were to occur, the world line would switch to another attractor field (Beta to Steins Gate during Operation Skuld, or Beta to Alpha when Okarin sent the first dmail). So having Suzuha disappearing like that is still fine to a certain degree.

The problem with the anime adaptation is that they made the world line change so dramatically -without- a reading steiner reaction that it doesn't make any sense.
The lack of reading steiner means there wasn't any action that would lead to a WL shift. Yet, if there wasn't any, there is no reason for Okarin to succeed in the first time leap, but not with the second. In fact, by virtue of converging events, Okarin being stuck in the machine then "saved" 25 years later should have happened right from the get go.


Frankly, this is just a very messy plothole the scripters created by trying to merge 2 routes that could theorically never happen together, as they were dependant of actions and characters that are mutually exclusive so to speak.

AC-Phoenix 2018-09-05 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon (Post 6274191)
Nobody answered me in the previous thread but my understanding is that the time machine creates a new worldline when it's used to avoid any time paradoxes. When Suzuha used the time machine, the worldline changed from one where the time machine was never used to one where it was. Which of course had consequences and altered the future she knew. In his D mail, Daru even said he wasn't from her future.

The main hole in that theory is that Suzuha disappears when Steins Gate is reached.

The thing is that Mayuri's absence would make a huge difference. For starters, the entire 2/4th of the anime would change as Kagiri would no longer be, in absence of a better word, imprinted towards Mayuri.


Note I have yet to read the VN:

She would either:
a) Not know them at all
b) Be imprinted to another person
c) Not exist


a) The problem is how she would get back into the past with this one, as Mayuri's actions in the future lead to her going to the past with Suzuha.
i.e. without Mayuri she won't go back to the past, or if she somehow happens to go anyway then under different circumstances (see b), which should trigger Steins Reader.


b)
In this case, the most likely suspects would be either Okabe, Maho or Daru, with Okabe being the most likely suspect. In any event, she'd meet her foster parent much sooner. This in turn could accelerate things drastically.

Even if this wasn't the case though, Okabe would still remember her as Mayuri's daughter, which in turn would cause a Reading Steiner.

c)
This would definitely trigger the Reader instantly. First off, professor <whatever was her name> would have eliminated the STRATFOR troopers instead, which might have ended in Leskinien's death.

Nevertheless, the fate of several(at least 2) people in Okabe's presence would change drastically, which would again trigger the Reader.


In a nutshell: Mayuri's death only makes sense if Reading Steiner activates as a consequence. However since it didn't Mayuri has to be alive.
And yet, even 25 years in the future, Mayuri is still considered dead.

The only possible way to untangle this is, is saying she and Suzuha A traveled to the future, after Okarin woke up, but before Suzuha B left.

Oh and lets not forget: In Kagari's flashback's, Mayuri was no longer 17 (or how old she is now) either, so there needs to be time for that too.

Problem here is that Suzuha A would have had to die when the time machine got shot, because otherwise she'd exist twice at the same time.

devilo96 2018-09-05 21:36

Btw the anime follow which route ?
And should i play the vn after last eps sg 0 for a better understanding?
Cuz what i know...wf is good at pacing the anime

Jaden 2018-09-06 06:10

I'll need to read VN to get the full picture.

I get that the anime can't follow through every character arc that was newly opened in SG;0, since they have "bad endings". But I get the feeling that I'm missing out on important information because of that.

Besides, the attempt to bake those stories into a single narrative seems to be causing plot holes, and I want to see the straight-up version.

Kanon 2018-09-06 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix (Post 6274198)
The thing is that Mayuri's absence would make a huge difference. For starters, the entire 2/4th of the anime would change as Kagiri would no longer be, in absence of a better word, imprinted towards Mayuri.

Given how time travel works in Steins Gate, Mayuri never taking in Kagari wouldn't change the present. Suzuha and Kagari are from a worldline that stopped existing as soon as they arrived in the past. Based on what Klashikari said, they would only disappear if the attractor field changed, and it apparently didn't since WW3 still happened. Mayuri disappearing is a big change for us but not on a world scale. As far as we know, it's not like Mayuri adopting Kagari is a convergence point.

As for why reading steiner didn't activate, I think the very fact Suzuha and Kagari went to the past is what changed the future. In this particular case, wouldn't Reading Steiner activate for the Okabe of 2036? (except he's dead by that time in the WL Suzuha is from)

I think the problem is that the mechanics of physical time travel were never fully explained in the anime (don't know about the game), unlike D-mails and time leaping which were detailed in Steins Gate.

AC-Phoenix 2018-09-06 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon (Post 6274329)
Given how time travel works in Steins Gate, Mayuri never taking in Kagari wouldn't change the present. Suzuha and Kagari are from a worldline that stopped existing as soon as they arrived in the past. Based on what Klashikari said, they would only disappear if the attractor field changed, and it apparently didn't since WW3 still happened. Mayuri disappearing is a big change for us but not on a world scale. As far as we know, it's not like Mayuri adopting Kagari is a convergence point.

Actually we got evidence pointing to the contrary.
Namely that Suzuha isn't immune to the effects of a timeline change.


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