Moe fans: what shows and characters do you like and why?
 

As some of you know, I participate in a lot of discussion about moe on this board. One thing I’ve noticed about these discussions is that many people – myself included - seem to have some sort of notions about what kinds of characters and shows moe fans like and dislike.

I want to put those notions to the test by collecting opinions from moe fans about what they actually like and dislike, and especially what they consider moe.

Please note that I'd prefer people not attribute opinions to other people in this thead. Debate about a character is fine, but this is a thread to give opinions, not attribute them to others.

For the moment, I’m going to leave this discussion fairly free-form, but I’d actually like to set up a system by which people can ask thread participants their opinions on certain characters, casts, or shows. Perhaps people should bold question directed at thread participants at large?

Hmm, how do I not make this correspond with my favorite characters list? :heh:

Well in any case, I like moe when it's combined with some kind of confidence or competence in skill or strength. That could be mental or physical.

Shiori Misaka from Kanon is a fairly good example of someone I like just because she's also fairly confident about herself and what she wants to do. There's always Matsuri from Sola which combines this confidence with charm and a bit of sex appeal which makes a very strong case for moe in my books.

I also like the cool/quiet types just because I like pretty much anything in this area. Mai Kawasumi has that certain elegance in her actions and loyalty to her friends that I respect greatly, and so amplifies the cutesy moments when they do happen. There's also Fate Haralown who is like that as well.

Overall I like characters that display grace-- traits to be admired and goals and motivations to be respected. Having a broad range of emotions and adequate character development that causes the character to be more complete.

So you can guess what I don't like
-- Annoying
-- Little or no development
-- Useless
-- is not a character-- they just serve as a plot device or main character satelite.

I won't have to name names; will speak for itself. ;p

Pretty much that. I'll take a stoic, modest character who occasionally becomes flustered for all the right reasons, over a bratty tsundere any day.

Characters I like tend to be multi-dimensional, and it happens that a lot of them have "moe" as a bonus trait. Characters like Amamiya Yuuko (ef) and Shihou Matsuri (sola) have a supernatural/mystery aura about them, whilst characters like Senjougahara Hitagi (Bakemonogatari) and Horo (Spice and Wolf) have a quirky, witty personality attached them. Characters like Isayama Yomi (Ga-Rei Zero) have the "cool" factor whilst characters like Sheryl Nome (Macross Frontier) have a sex appeal. All these characters can be "moe" at times but is definitely not the dominant factor. However, I don't exactly have preferable traits.

Characters I tend to dislike are those that portray a single dimensional personality, which are often over-used and exaggerated. Examples are airheads or passive characters that don't do anything or those of the Type A tsundere group - snap out at the protagonist at any sign of jealousy. I also think I don't need to name any names :p.

Not ignoring the thread... just want to think a bit before I post in it.

For quick reference, I'd like to post my Top 10 Anime Girls list that I've been maintaining since 2007. If any of you can identify any patterns I myself am not privy to, I would appreciate it.
I'd say it's a mixed bag, but I can point out two categories myself: 1.) Tomboys and characters who struggle with their femininity, and 2.) Tsundere and powerful characters who get emotionally disarmed by the protagonist. As do others, I also like characters with strong personalities, not ones with mushy goo. Well, there's Ayu, but... :p

What’s you’re opinion of tsunderes like Eri Sachikawa (School Rumble) and Rin Tohsaka (Fate/Stay Night)? Well not exactly stoic, you can hardly accuse those two of being brats.

Sorry if it feels like I'm heckling you here, but it annoys me that the term tsundere has become synonymous with being over-reactive and bitchy.

@Archon and Acejem

My responses to this are probably going to be a bit different from the ones you gave simply because while I will include some general reason for liking characters, I’ll be concentrating quite heavily on what I consider their moe traits, rather than their general traits.. That said, I’m going to give my quick thoughts on some of the characters you mention, because I want this thread to get people thinking about what sort of traits they like and/or find moe in characters and putting specific characters under the microscope is a good way to do that.

(I’m not posting about Cyth’s choices right now because his post wasn’t up when I started writing this and I think this post is long enough as is…)

Mai was my favourite character in Kanon 2006 back when I watched it. And I’d still consider her a candidate for my favourite in the series. I didn’t so much admire her elegance as like her stoic nature – at the time, I often compared her to Yuki. That said, I think I like her more because I consider her a cool character than because of her moe traits. I tend to think of moe as being either a warm feeling or a “I want to help/protect her” feeling. Stoic girls generally don’t evoke the former for me, and while Mai’s freakout over Sayuri was pretty moving, there’s characters whose storylines affected me much more deeply.

I never cared for Shiori much when I first watched the show but I’ve come to really like her. In fact, I consider her to be the best match for Yuuchi. It’s interesting that Archon mentions Shiori and Matsuri so close together… Shiori comes across to me as kind of like a junior version of Matsuri. Her playfulness and charm aren’t nearly as well developed as Matsuri’s, but she’s got quite a few years to learn. And the “cute junior” type is one of my favourite moe types, so she in essence has a dual moe appeal.

That said, there’s not replacement for the real thing. Matsuri has long been in my top ten for her cheeky, playful side. Because of it, she manages to evoke the “warm feelings” kind of moe despite being a total cougar (seriously, when you factor in the immortality, she’s like the age of her love interest – squared). It’s interesting to hear her described as having sex appeal, when I think about it she does but I haven’t tended to notice much because it’s fairly understated. Can’t say the supernatural/mysterious aspect ever played a huge role in her appeal to me, aside from piquing my initial interest a little.

I consider Horo to be pretty similar to Matsuri in having a cheeky, playful side, and once again, it’s a key reason why she’s among my top ten. Being a kemonomimi fanboy, the fact she’s a wolf girl and a little bit of an exhibitionist doesn’t hurt either.

Actually, even Yuuko Amamiya initially in A Tale of Memories attracted me with a playful nature, although here the “mysterious” bit played a much larger role in her appeal to me. Her playful side also manifests in her backstory in Melodies, although here her playful side exhibits a little more of a sadistic edge. Somehow it still appeals. She’s also got a deeply moving backstory, although surprisingly it didn’t evoke as much of a moe effect as some other characters’ stories I could name.

For me, a similar playful and a bit sadistic appeal is the major appeal of Hitagi Senjougahara. If Shiori is “Junior Matsuri”, perhaps Hitagi is “Dark Matsuri”? Here, the sex appeals a little more direct than with many of the other characters mentioned so far as well. Another top ten favourite of mine.

Fate Testarossa is indeed elegant, and that does give her a certain appeal. Not sure I’d consider her a major favourite though.

I like Yomi and kind of like Sheryl, but in terms of moe factor for me, they’re outgunned by their competition: Kagura and Ranka, respectively. When a show has had a strong female lead along with a weak or semi-strong female lead, I tend to favour the weaker one for some reason: for me, this goes all the way back to some of the earliest anime I watched, such as Full Metal Panic (I liked Tessa more than Kaname) and Utawarerumono (I prefer Eruruu to Karura).

I guess you could say that while strong girls often have a sort of “badass appeal” to me, I usually find they lack the moe appeal to compete with their weaker counterparts unless they demonstrate a significant and notable playful side. Yomi and Sheryl just aren’t quite there. Although Sheryl did put on a better show in this regard in the movie than the TV series… the way she kind of flirted with Alto during the concert scene early in the movie was a pretty good example of playful/teasing moe.

Hmmm… while I wouldn’t say I really like the airhead type, I’ve never actually minded it too much. In fact, I usually refer to characters like K-On!’s Yui as “loveable idiots. If there is one moe writing practice I have a distaste for, it’s the way writers seem to tack random strange traits onto characters… Key in particular seems prone to this, many of their characters are endearing enough to soften the blow but some aren’t (sorry Cyth, but Ayu is one of the ones that just doesn’t work for me). As for tsunderes… I tend to prefer the non-snappy type, although I actually really like Taiga from Toradora and I like Shana a fair bit too. I can understand the distaste for them though… characters like Louise from ZnT are pretty annoying.

When I think about it, I have a few characters I like from most types. However, there are a few character types that I tend to really like. First, I like cute juniors, specifically the kind of girl a few years younger than me or the lead character who have a fairly warm personality – characters like Shiori from Kanon and Nadeko from Bakemonogatari come to mind. Second, I like the shy type – Kotomi from Clannad is a good example here. And finally, I like the playful, charming type – characters like Matsuri, Horo and Hitagi. In general, the older, more powerful characters I like come from the latter group, the younger, weaker ones come from the former two. Although there are occasionally characters who overlap – Amagami SS’s Ai Nanasaki, for example, is both a cute junior and a playful, teasing type.

I would also say that character backstory often plays a role in how much I like a character, although that’s an issue for another post. I’m already at like 1000 words.

I think of the posters so far, I probably come the closest to being a "moeblob lover", with namedropping Nadeko, Kotomi, etc.:heh: But I'd like to think that my posts prove that my tastes aren't as shallow as they might initially appear.

I don't even use the term "moe" that much, as I know just how vaguely defined it is and how much kneejerk reactions using it even causes. But I do know the pattern when it comes to my favorite characters.

Hidamari Sketch's Miyako, GA's Nodamiki, Ritsu from K-ON! are the top three that come to mind, but they're all forged in a very similar mold. Unorthodox ways of thinking, boundless energy, dreamers and doers, and just a little idiotic. Even the smartest of people tend to do stupid things, and they are unafraid to do whatever weird thing comes to mind, even if people don't understand it. Characters who are tricksters also appeal to me for very similar reasons.

The most moe girls for me are Sumomo Akihime, Yako Katsuragi and Elis Shihou. And I think the trait I like most about them is that they try hard and have a "never give up" aura about them.

(The scene that really exemplifies this is the episode of Nanatsuiro Drops where Sumomo has to obtain the drop that fell into the pool. Which means she has to get over her fear of water.)

Of course the thing about this is the less competent a character is the easier it is to show that they do try hard. Which is why I think Tsukasa is moe (inspite never having much of a chance to show off) and Kagami not moe.

I've been giving this a lot of thought, but I now feel up to attempting to answer the questions posed by 0utf0xZer0.

To put it very simply, I tend to like moe characters for these two reasons:

1) Simple aesthetic appeal. I like how most moe characters are drawn and designed. They tend to have either a loli appearance or a "girl next door" appearance. I find the loli appearance cute in a non-sexual way (that's just me personally). I find the "girl next door" appearance cute in general.

2) They are usually very good-natured, and generally positive and upbeat. In an era dominated by angsting male leads, bad ass anti-heroes, and cynical snarkers, I find that most moe characters constitute a refreshing and cheerful change of pace for me.


Most moe characters come across to me as simply nice, warm, friendly people (if they were real and not fictional, of course). I know that comes across as very hokey, but it's true, and it's something that I appreciate. It's definitely why I like most of the cast of Clannad and Kanon 2006, especially Kotomi Ichinose and Shiori.


Now, beyond that, I share a lot of Archon_Wing's views.

Of my five favorite anime characters of all-time, four are female, and they are Nanoha Takamachi, Haruhi Suzumiya, Shana (of Shakugan no Shana), and Fate Testarossa.

Considerable competence in particular areas of expertise is something that all four of these characters share. All four of these characters are also very driven and determined characters who do not easily give in or quit.

So, even with moe characters, I love a "never say die" attitude.

Stoicism is probably the character trait that I like the most of them all, as it tends to tie together all of the various character traits that I do like.


I also tend to like very theatrical, or "hammy" characters. This is a big part of the reason why Haruhi is one of my favorite characters.

I like characters who come across as a bit "larger than life"; characters that tend to capture every scene that they're in.

With this in mind, while I very much like most moe characters, I'm not as much into what could be called an anime with a very relaxed, moe atmosphere.

I think that moe's strengths really come out when there's serious action and drama going on. Part of what makes the female characters of Higurashi Kai so appealing, in my opinion, is the fact that they really are in danger; they really do need help. "Moe" is sometimes said to evoke a strong feeling of protectiveness in the heart of the viewer; a desire to ensure that the moe character is not harmed. Well, I would say that this feeling is at its greatest, at least for me, when such harm coming to a moe character is a very real possibility.


Putting aside moe for a bit, I like suspenseful dramatic action-packed anime shows in general. I like fantasy and sci-fi. I like good multifaceted plots that are very solid, but with at least an unexpected twist or two. Animes that aim to be a bit epic in the story or stories that they seek to tell are ones that I tend to like. This is why I like a lot of mecha animes, like Gurren Lagann and various Gundam shows: their narratives exist on a grand scale, involving global if not interstellar conflict.


I generally don't like very weak-willed characters, and some moe characters are like this, I'll admit. I think that one thing that has hurt the perception of "moe" is how the term is tied to Mikuru Asahina in the minds of many non-Japanese anime fans.

Mikuru, while having some good character traits, does tend to exemplify a lot of the character traits that annoy many anime fans. And, somewhat incorrectly I think, those traits became associated with moe characters as a whole due to Mikuru, the "Moe Mascot" of the SOS Brigade.

Truth be told, most moe characters are not as weak-willed as Mikuru, most moe characters are more assertive than Mikuru, and most moe characters have a wider range of usefulness as characters than Mikuru does.


Moe, to me, is like having a cheerful smile on a sunny day with a brilliantly bright blue sky, walking over gregarious green grassy hills, and receiving happily hearty hugs. It's the anime equivalent of the famous "Trololol" video on YouTube :heh: :




Ok, that was a bit silly of me, but sometimes it helps to be over-the-top to get a point across, lol.

Well, you're assuming I was referring to tsunderes as a whole, but there is no denying a lot of them are bratty. Not all of them, however. Eri and Tohsaka don't really fall into that category, neither does Hinagiku -- among others. I do find it is the case more often than not, so rather than listing names, I just brought up tsunderes and the tendency they have to be bratty. It's usually the loli tsunderes that fall into this category.

Okay... this probably doesn't exactly answer the question.. but I tend to prefer a series that takes a sub-genre and does something unusual with it or with the characters in it (e.g. Toradora!, Spice&Wolf, etc). I suppose most would tag me a 'moe fan' but I don't specifically look for moe as a central theme. If the characters exhibit characteristics that generate 'moe' ... fine but there has to be more than that. What generates that feeling can vary wildly... from the "Taiga" fiery types to the sophisticated acidity of Horo or the quiet emotionality of a bashful female demi-fox-spirit in this season's offering (Susukihotaru in Otome Youkai Zakuro). OTOH.. the supposed 'moe' of a K-On Yui just leaves me a bit blank. I suppose if I *had* to narrow it down, then the 'crusty exterior, creamy interior' character type is more 'moe' to me (one type of tsundere) because they can usually take care of themselves but they *choose* to be 'dere' to a special someone.

Probably ... Motoko of Love Hina was the earliest character I encountered in this hobby that generated 'moe' for me. Most of the examples of that have some core of her in them.

I agree - her characterization really derailed many 'western' anime fans understanding of moe into a little subcompartment of moe as well as inverting where 'moe' actually exists.

@Midonin: Your avatar (for future reference, Arashiyama from Soredemo Machi wa Mawatte Iru) is pretty much my definition of a "lovable idiot" character. She fits an interesting class of characters for me though: I consider her a "moe character" due to her traits and she's one of my favourite characters this season because of her antics, but she doesn't personally evoke a moe feeling in me. This seems to be the fate of this character type though... I have much the same opinion of Yui.

I seem to remember Kagami had a few bashful moments that were really cute, even momentarily drawing a moe feeling or two from me, although it didn't last (I refer to this kind of temporary moe as a "moe moment"). Such moments are one of the major appeals of the tsundere character type..

I tend to credit a lot of my love of my to the fact that a lot of the more dramatic moe shows I've seen have moved me quite deeply. In fact, there are certain favourite characters I have that I like primarily for their stories rather than their character traits themselves - Chihiro from EF being the best example.


Mikuru's moe traits are so "in your face" that I tend to conceive of her more as a satirical character than a conventional moe character. There are people who find her moe, but I personally find her traits so in your face it feels kind of clinical and forced - which makes her rather ineffective at actually evoking a moe feeling from me.

Also, I've always gotten the impression that Yuki is the most popular Haruhi character among moe fans.



I don't think I'd find Susukihotaru very moe on her own, but when paired with Riken she evokes a very high number of "awwwwwwwww" moments. Zakuro herself evokes more moe in terms of inherent personality traits (as opposed to interactions, although she gets a boost from those too).

Yui is interesting for me from a moe standpoint. She evokes warm feelings from me, but not the almost love like feeling that a character like Kotomi, Nadeko, Horo, or Matsuri does. Instead, she has a kind of infectiously ultra sweet, saccharine vibe to her that permeates the surrounding scene.

I did find the fact she topped some "waifu" polls at one point utterly terrifying in that it made me wonder if otaku really are as utterly bonkers as some people think (as opposed to just a small number being utterly bonkers), however, I take comfort in the fact that she lost other polls and that I suspect there may have been vote splitting among potential challengers (including vote splitting between her K-On compatriots Mio and Azusa, who strike me as saner waifu material).

My bad, I guess I misunderstood the nature of the topic. Firstly, I think it largely depends on people's definition of moe. If I recall, traditionally moe was a protecting feeling of a character, but now it wide enough to include sexual feelings or a strong feeling in general towards a character. Moe is also often synonymous with cute as well.

I never associated playful with moe but knowing how wide the definition of moe is, I am highly likely to be wrong. People consider tsunderes who like to beat up others moe or bats*it crazy yanderes moe, so the definition is very broad indeed. I'm just going to with a very broad definition that moe is a strong desire or feeling to be sympathizing with a (female) character.

Given this broad definition and despite my tendancy to not favour any traits, conclusions tell me that I tend to prefer playful characters. As you said Yuuko, Matsuri, Hitagi and Horo all have their fair share of playful personalities, and theres other characters that fit this mold that I highly like including Amano Touko (Bungaku Shoujo), Noda Megumi (Nodame Cantabile) and Akiba Rika (HanTsuki). However, this isn't always the case. If I was to always prefer playful characters, then in True Tears I should have by default preferred Isurugi Noe over Yuasa Hiromi. Here, I prefer the more reserved, stoic, "Yamato Nadeshiko" type.

Talking about reserved, stoic characters, I have mixed preferences of them. Whilst I like characters like Saber (Fate Stay/Night) and Fate (MGLN), I dislike characters like Yuki (Haruhi Suzumiya) and Kanade (Angel Beats). Whilst the stoicness in Saber and Fate seems to be natural due to their circumstances and upbringing, Yuki and Kanade seem to be stoic for the sake of being stoic (perhaps just for fanservice or obligatory character archtype that "need" to be there for the type of show)

Talking about Yuki and Kanade, they both come from KyoAni or Key, and without deliberately jumping on the banwagon and hating on them, I tend to dislike their "moe" traits more than I like them. I find it that KyoAni or Key characters are not particularly strong. They often tend to be single dimensional or very "simple" with weird random strange traits as 0utf0xZer0 puts it. Another trait that they are not strong are conclusions/endings but that is another topic. However, they often do excel at creating suspenseful and heartwrenching dramas, which is why credit should be given for series like Clannad ~After Story and VNs like Planetarian.

As for weak-willed or "useless" characters, I'm largely on the same stance as Archon Wing and Triple R in that I generally don't like them. These would include characters like Ryou (Clannad), Yoshida (Shana) and generally any female lead in a shoujo romance/drama manga. I don't like female characters that are so weak that they have to depend on the protagonist to justify their existence. There are exceptions like Chihiro (ef) who although appear to weak-willed on the surface is actually quite strong-willed (and is very moe) in addition to having a mysterious aura about them. In fact, just about every ef character has a mysterious aura about them whilst on the surface they appear to be simple and stereotypical... perhaps with the exception of Kei (poor Kei lol).

As for Type A tsunderes, as I mentioned I dislike them, but Type B tsunderes like Rin (Fate Stay Night) and Lynn Minmay (Macross) are perfectly fine.

In the end, I think a better question for me would have been what kind of moe traits do I dislike and why, since I do not specifically watch a show because there is a specific moe trait I favour. It just happens I like a character due to non-moe traits and I happen to also like or at the very least tolerate their moe traits.

In conclusion, characters need to be more than mere moe for me to like them and if I had to choose a trait that I find favourable, it would be the playful type if playful is considered moe. Moe traits that I don't find favourable are generally of the weak-willed type.

Hope this answered the question better.

I'd like to say I am doing the same currently, I'll probably post in a day or so.

I'm actually completely fine with people talking about the kinds of characters they like in general, since I'm also interested in what moe fans like aside from straight up moe. I simply happen to be very interested in what people consider moe as well.

As I've mentioned in other threads, moe kind of has the connotations "burning" and "blossoming", as in "burning passion, blossoming girl". Blossoming suggests to me youthful (much moreso than childish), and playfulness is something I would consider both a youthful trait and a trait that can evoke warm feelings towards someone. So for me, it's a major moe point. Plus, a lot of people consider the "peppy" type to be kind of the original moe archetype anyway.

The "strongly feeling for/sympathisizing with" kind of moe seems to me to originate from Evangelion, which popularized "broken girls" as a moe type. A lot of dramatic moe works try to evoke this feeling, it's part of the reason that many people find them tearjerkers.

I don't personally consider sexual feelings to be moe feelings. However, quite a few characters evoke both moe feelings (of either kind) and sexual ones.

I actually like both Yuki and Kanade. The moe appeal I get from them (and a few other emotionless girl types) is that they're facing internal emotional struggles, but can't really express it effectively, or are even actively repressing it. I will admit that aside from this moe point, Kanade is a fairly bland character. You could probably level the same accusation at Nadeko (I suppose I should mention that I find Kana Hanazawa's voice moe), but I've always felt Nadeko is a little more complex than people give her credit for - there's multiple ways to interpret some of her actions, she just doesn't talk much.

Yeah, Chihiro is a strong willed girl suffering from a severe disability. The fact she tends to be meek around others (she is, after all, mentally trapped at a time when she was twelve and relied a lot on her somewhat brash, aggressive twin sister) is probably what makes people take a while to catch on.

Interesting question. Instead of trying to target the definition of moe, you try to target each individual's interpretation of this concept.

The best I can personally do is list some of my favorite female characters...

This includes.... Shiki (Kara no Kyoukai), Real (Ergo Proxy), Asuka and Rei (Neon Genesis Evangelion), Haruhi (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu), Rin and Saber (Fate Stay Night), Akiha (Tsukihime), and Horo (Spice and Wolf).

Is there any defining characteristics about them? Well yes... None of them are weak natured. However, none of them are your prototypical "moe" characters... At least I don't think so.

Usually I just like girls that have any sort of brains or strong personality in anime. I hate the naive types, the frail types. I'm not too much into any of the girls that are like photo copies of Rei from NGE .


I think Clannad and Kanon 2006 did far more to harm people's perceptions of moe than Mikuru. Mikuru is basically a parody of a prototypical moe character. But Haruhi the show didn't only contain her as a "moe" character. I feel that the far more domineering Haruhi and Yuki would take control of people's perceptions of moe if anything.

I would probably go further and say Key/KyoAni in general is harming people's perceptions. However, I think the word "harm" is wrong word to use here, but perhaps "misguided" or "limited". Moe has a broad definition but some people (particularily moe haters) think moe is limited to being "retarded" or "airheaded" or "tsundere", which Key/KyoAni girls seem to portray.

The reason why I'm reluctant to use "harm" is that there is a large group of people that like their characters being moe with those traits, and using the word "harm" indicates a negative connatation - that this type of "moe" is bad. Of course, that doesn't mean I agree with them either or like these particular moe traits, but what is "bad' is subjective.

Well, I'm actually looking to see if there's patterns, but yes, my objective with this thread is to see how moe works "in practice" as opposed to in theory.

There's one key difference between Mikuru and other characters from Haruhi, Kanon, and Clannad: Mikuru is the only one who is ever explicitly described in series as a moe character. And Haruhi was big enough to reach huge numbers of English speaking fans who had never heard the term "moe" - remember, we're talking 2006 here.

So in essence, Mikuru introduced a lot of westerners to the concept of moe. The first impression these people had of the concept came from a satirical caricture, and I think it coloured an awful lot of impressions. Hearing Kanon and Clannad described as moe was just the nails in the coffin.

Well sure, she was the only one described as "moe." But you have to remember, the one who did so was our oh so lovable main character who then pranced around with her outside in a bunny outfit. She went off about "turn on" and then used herself as one.

Ah sure, sure. Yes, misguided or limited would be a more apt way to put it.

The Appeal of Tsukimiya Ayu
 

It's unfortunate to see Ayu used as a gag character on the internet, but I guess that's the internet for ya. One particular communitystarted Key's English nerddom, and that would be Haeleth's Gemot. I'm a member of a spinoff community that has very little to do with Gemot today, and admittedly even Gemot is a bit tsundere toward Key in general these days, but the way we talk about Ayu is completely endearing. Whenever someone says uguu~, it's not the kind of mockery you see with comics like these. The appeal is there, I just think various people have a hard time defining what that is, so the general population gets stuck on striking character addons such as uguus and the shizz.

I'm moe for Ayu for two reasons.

Mainly, the first would have to be the kiss. The way Yuuichi and Ayu kissed exemplified the natural fitness of their relationship - they were childhood friends, they reunited and they became lovers. Kanon is a model example of when a childhood friend archetype makes sense. I mean, there is no point to even feature a childhood friend if the series ain't going to produce a pairing. A series having a childhood friend as a side character just makes me feel uncomfortable, and when other characters in the series are that much better their supposed appeal loses even more credence with me.

Most people consider Ayu's uguu her biggest selling point, and while I think it's a charming lil' trait, I would have to go with her boots and mittens. Here's why: she works as a gag character all the way to the middle of the series, a ghost running through the city's snowy streets who has a tendency of glomping people. Even Yuuichi starts making fun of The Uguu in the 2006 TV series, that's how self-conscious the franchise is. So we have the boots, the mittens, her relatively small chest and boyish gimmicks on one side, and the fact that she's a woman on another. Case in point, we have a juxtaposition on our hands. Bridging the gap between Ayu as a tomboy gag character and Ayu as Yuuichi's lover feels endearing to me, so when they kissed somewhat unexpectedly, everything fell into its rightful place.

I'm sure my explanation might fall on deaf ears, in particular to people who have embraced shows without (male) leads as the new standard in moe storytelling. I would like to say I have a problem with this because their absence means that moe feelings are induced with completely superficial traits, such as appearance or the character's personality, but sometimes even I get stuck on characters like Vita-chan from Nanoha who appeal to me because they are loli tomboys with cute clothing and awesome weaponry. The relationship aspect can sometimes be very important to the character's appeal, that's all I'm going to say.

Moe characters, huh? This thread is actually pretty difficult to answer to in a correct manner. :)

I'll try to sort them out somehow and write a lil' about why I picked them. Though feel free to speculate if I'm using the term "moe" in the right way. The whole thing always felt a little too abstract to me to really make a clear definition of who may or may not belong in the group. I'm going to avoid describing moe characters, where their traits are widely known and aknowledged already for the most obvious reasons (such as Konata from Lucky Star and Taiga from Toradora!, my perhaps two greatest favorites) and am rather going to spend time describing the not-so-obvious individuals (or characters I find moe due to possibly slighty different reasons than most fans do).

Azumanga Daioh - Two girls I consider moe in this series. First, Osaka (/Kasuga Ayumu) for her either being so ridiculously laid back and easygoing or overreacting so cutely in certain situations. It just somehow had its charm, for example how the girls watched the sky on top of the school building and Osaka felt so amazed and free, Chiyo had to make sure and held her hand, so she couldn't do anything stupid? Some may say she was a pure airhead with rainbows inside her head, but I didn't really feel like that when I watched the series. Second girl being Sakaki. At first she was just an ordinary "cool" character, but seeing the huge change in her behavior once she got Maya and how she tried to hide that part of her so much, it gave the viewers a chance to see her true personality.

K-On! - This one had interesting development. It took me quite a while to watch the series and I heard a lot of...concerning things before doing so. One of them being the instant fandom favorite moeblob queen Mio Akiyama. I seriously feared what this is going to be and who those fans that forced her on the pedestal of popularity were. But I was pleasantly surprised, she was quite a well thought character. Even though it was obvious what the general role of K-On! and it's characters is going to be, I liked her strong personality beyond the "puni puni" moeblob factor; her dedication and drive to lead the girls and how she was the one to do the unpopular requests/tasks/demands that had to be done for or by the band. She is, simply said, a support structure for the band to work. As are her bass and vocals. Which leads me to yet another major factor of her success; her voice. Normally, a VA does his/her job and it usually fits the character, nothing more. But the voice Mio got was in my opinion a very decisive factor in how the crowd was going to respond to the character, making her what she is. All these impressions are made based on the observation of first series only though. I didn't have time for S2 yet, keep that in mind. Her character might have developed in a totally different path to which I'm oblivious so far.

Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu - Who do you expect here? Haruhi? Yuki? Mikuru? Not a chance, those were ridiculous extremes. No, I'm talking about Tsuruya. Another very interesting character that has its very specific charms. As a kind-hearted, hyperactive "genki" girl, she does a great job at making people smile whenever she's on scene. Add to that the specific fang of hers, the speech pattern and her looks and you have a very unorthodox example of moe before you.

That's it so far. Feel free to comment on my opinions, I'd like to hear what others think about these characters.



Oh and about Mikuru, I never understood the reasoning behind Mikuru being a moe character. I wasn't able to find a single appealing trait from her. She definitely isn't the definition of Beauty to me (Haruhi fits that role too well for her to compete) and her personality made me more irritated than feeling sorry for her. Last but not least, her cutesy "classified information" just kept making me even less forgiving.

Exactly. Funny thing is, I found her Haruhi-chan spinoff version much more moe and enjoyable to watch than the regular one.



Haha, that definition is just awesome, man. :heh:

But it's true, it is this friendly warm feeling like you describe.

I have some very specific favorite moe types. The main three are:

1. Strict, moralistic, lecturing characters with a hidden cute side. Basically something like the "class inchou" archetype. Examples include:

Gertrud Barkhorn from Strike Witches
Helma Lennartz from Strike Witches (a wonderful ball of adorability)
Kureha Suminoya from Sora no Woto
Sikieki Yamaxanadu from Touhou Project
Sumire Kanou from Toradora

2. Emotionally distant, kuu-dere, or shy genius characters. Like:

Yuki Nagato from the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya
Kotomi Ichinose from Clannad
Noel Kannagi from Sora no Woto
Ruri Hoshino from Martian Successor Nadesico
Mai Kawasumi from Kanon

3. However the heck you'd categorize Erika Furudo from Umineko. "Characters who try to act hyper-rationally and logically in order to deny their own painful emotions"...I guess. But this is pretty specific and rare.

This isn't what people usually think of when they think of "moe characters," but they never fail to set my heart aflutter. Moe is a highly personal thing and I think it's a big mistake to stereotype all moe feelings into one sort of "generic cute moeblob" character.

Hmm...difficult question. Can't say I look for specific characters or archetypes when I look for a new anime to watch. I really value well built up characters and plot/atmosphere in case of SOL type shows, which do not necessarily have to be original . So 'moe' is not really a factor there...I think. Still if I fail to connect to the characters I find it hard to enjoy an anime.

In general I prefer two character sorts. One would be surly, melancholic, somewhat unapproachable characters, sometimes even rude with a kinder side and a either a genki or a never surrender mindset but they can never be cynical. Examples would be Kaname Chidori (FMP), Haruhi (SNnY), Kyou (Clannad) on the hot blooded side and Rei (NGE), Lafiel (Seikai no Senki) and Holo(S&W) at the calmer more reserved side of the spectrum. As they are all pretty independent they are rarely moe, but when they do enter vulnerable mode it's off the scales.

Second type would be the genuine nice characters, often uncomplicated and energetic but with a bluntness or clumsy flaw. These characters generate a more permanent feeling of warmth but less intense then the first. Examples for me are Noa (Patlabor), Haru (Xam'd), Aka(REC), Tomoyo (Clannad) and Birdy (Birdy the Mighty) and both Yui and Ritsu (K-on).

I'm plucking a quote from another thread and putting it in here because my comments concern moe, what characters are moe, and what it means to be moe rather than the other thread's topic of tsunderes.

I'm curious what makes you (or anybody else) consider Matsuri to be moe. Don't get me wrong, she's one of my favorite characters (if not my favorite) and I find her character very attractive in both appearance and personality, but I never really thought of her as moe. I was under the impression that moe implied some level of desire to protect the character in question, or at least to care for them. I personally always thought of moe characters as ones that make you want to give them a hug and tell them everything's going to be ok. When you bring up Matsuri I feel like you're equating moe with attraction. I consider Matsuri to be funny, pretty, playful, maybe even a little cute, but I wouldn't be likely to describe her as moe.

Now I could be completely off-base here and maybe attraction is a better definition of moe that my defintion, but I would just like to hear a clarification about what specifically makes Matsuri moe.

Closest answer I can reply with is that "tastes vary". What creates "moe" for me may not for you. What creates 'attraction' for me may not for you. I agree Sola's Matsuri didn't really evoke any moe in me... but it seems to for our OP. I can't say I'd use her as a key meter myself.

@DasDingus:

While I'm familiar with the "want to protect/give a hug" definition of moe (and I believe that Vexx defines it as the former), I've never really considered it adequate to describe the variety of characters that are considered moe.

Take a look at characters like Shana from Shakugan no Shana, Misaka Mikoto from Index and Railgun, or Rin Tohsaka from Fate/Stay Night. All are considered major moe icons, but while I'm sure some people may want to protect them, its not really my first response, especially since they're all very powerful in their own right. And huggable? They'd probably rather kick you in the shins than accept it (I'm exaggerating, but just barely).

From what I've read, moe is similar to the Japanese words for both burning and blossoming. "Moe" is often used as slang for "burning passion". Got a burning passion for girls in kneesocks? You're moe for them! Note that while a moe point may overlap with a fetish, the way I understand it, moe itself is felt in the chest or through a feeling of "brain melt", not below the belt.

Technically, the object that evokes moe doesn't even have to be a girl, but since moe is also very similar to blossoming in Japanese, its usually used in reference to a "youthful" girl (not necessarily young, as there are the MILF characters in Kanon and Clannad and immortals like Matsuri and Horo, but they're all pretty youthful for their ages).

In addition to the "burning passion" definition, I also use moe to refer to two other similar feelings. The first is "pleasant warmth". This is generally evoked by girls who are cheerful, innocent, shy, etc., and tends to carry a stronger protective connotation. Characters like Clannad's Kotomi Ichinose come to mind for me here. The second other feeling is harder to describe, but the phrase "tickled pink" comes to mind - its evoked mainly by very charismatic girls, Matsuri included.

(Side note: when a girl who evokes these traits is threatened by some force - violence, illness, etc. - it is usually very moving to the person who holds that feeling. Hence why moe and drama work very well together in works like Air, Clannad, EF, Sola, etc.)

I tend to use Matsuri as a test of moe definitions because she's a) not passive and b) a fairly mature character, both of which are traits a lot of people don't seem to realize a moe character can possess. I know that within this thread, Archon and Acejem have mentioned her as a favourite moe character, and I suspect that Triple_R would say the same if he weighed in. As for me personally, I think she evokes both the "burning passion" and "tickled pink" definitions of moe for me, as she's playful, charming, has a great fashion sense (those thighish socks...) and an amazing soft and sweet voice.

Substantial Sola spoiler here, needed for me to weigh in with complete accuracy:




I personally think that the "want to protect/give a hug" element of many moe characters is not a necessary prerequisite to a character being moe.

It helps for a moe character to have it, certainly, but I don't think it's a "must have" where if an otherwise moe character lacks it, you can't call her moe.


In fact, I think that the bad rap that moe has with some folks is due, in part, to people overplaying the "want to protect/give a hug" element of moe. It overemphasizes weakness and/or vulnerability as moe character traits (as some fans may have a natural desire to see the weak and vulnerable to be hugged and protected).

I personally consider Haruhi Suzumiya, Nanoha Takamachi, and, yes, Matsuri, to all be moe characters. Neither of them are particularly vulnerable in the least. What makes them moe is the burning/blossoming elements that 0utf0xZer0 referred to.

Personally, I think that the burning/blossoming elements are more important than the "want to protect/give a hug" element. Part of the reason why I feel that it's more important is because it's more objective (and hence more useful for categorization purposes). Anime fans can differ quite a bit on which characters they'd want to protect or give a hug to... but I think that even critics of characters like Haruhi, Nanoha, and Matsuri would admit that they have a youthful blossoming and playful energy to them.

Thanks for the response. There are a couple points I'd like some clarification on.

Based on this I'm inclined to believe you think that if a character is considered to be moe by somebody that makes the character, at least on some level, moe. Is this an accurate conclusion based on your statement?

I feel like the concept you're trying to get across here is an attraction on a mental (brain melt) or emotional (chest) level rather than a physical or sexual attraction. At that point it feels like almost any character can be considered to be moe depending on what one's particular tastes. Is there more to it than that?

I see. I am more familiar with the former definition. If you asked me to choose a single character that I would consider to be most moe (again, based on my definition) I would probably say Kotomi (Mio of K-ON being a close second). The second definition I filed more under general attractiveness but it seems like what you're trying to say is that general attractiveness and moe are very similar. I guess my question really is, are moe and attractiveness the same thing? If not, what is an example of something that you or I or somebody else could personally consider attractive but could not be categorized as moe?

Hmm, Matsuri, well usually tragic past increases moe factor when done right, at least in wanting to give them a hug. But that's just me. :p

DasDingus - Rather than moe having necessary prerequisites to it, I think it's more useful to point out what's not moe.

Given the general idea that people tend to have when you raise terms like "youthful blossoming" and "burning passion", I think that we can rule out any persistently cynical character as being moe. I also think that female characters with rough edges that go beyond that of a typical tsundere could be ruled out as well. For example, I would strongly disagree with anybody calling Revy (Black Lagoon) moe.

There are limits to how far you can stretch these terms and their meanings, in my opinion.


However, I won't deny that moe, as 0utf0xZer0 and myself tend to perceive it, is a very broad category, with even something as broad as tsundere arguably being a mere subcategory within it.

Hmmm....

I don't really consider myself a moe fan. I don't dislike moe shows. In fact I tend to enjoy them, but more then way I would cotton candy. It's a fun little snack, but not really filling.

I'm also usually not crazy for the moe girls either. Oh they are alright, and pretty to look at, but they don't really spark a strong response in me. In fact I've come to realize that most of the anime girls that generate a truly powerful emotional response out of me are ones that have strong similarities to the women I have dated seriously.

Kyoko Onatashi (from Maison Ikkoku) for example is very similar to a woman I dated off and on for 3 years (and proposed to twice- yes, she kept dating me after she said no the first time).

Or Belldandy from Ah My Goddess. Reminded me so much of a woman I dated for 4 years, who I would have proposed to except each time I started to talk about the issue she'd get scared and suddenly change the subject, (mainly because she's the main financial support for her mother, sisters, and grandparents- and she knew I wasn't likely to settle in her little town after marriage). She was also the middle child of three sisters- although Amy was similar to Skuld in some ways, Laurie was nothing like Urd- they also reversed the roles in that Amy was all for us, while Laurie was not much in favor towards me.

Yet girls who are simply moe? Not many really get to me. (And I don't really think of Kyoko, or even Belldandy as really being moe designs- they're more straight Bishoujo).

I can only think of three "moe" girls who managed to evoke a truly strong emotional response from me.

1: Felli Loss (from Chrome Shelled Regios). Strangely enough it's because I identify with Felli, not because I want to be her love interest.

2: Shiori from The World God Only Knows. Again I identify strongly with her love of books. She also reminds me very much so of a woman I was good friends with for years, and who I dated a little bit. I would have married her, but... I really did not want the mother-in-law that would have come along in the deal.

3: Kagami from Lucky Star. I don't know, she just is so similar to the generic type of woman I look for when I date. Strong willed, but a gentle heart. Blunt and truthful, but also shy. Dutiful, but with a sense of humor. Intelligent yet practical. While she doesn't call up any particular woman I dated, she does share the same attributes that all of them had.

It's a strange thing to me, and might make me different from most anime fans, but it's not the wild fantasies that move me most. Rather it's characters that remind me of real life memories that really get to me.

I suppose little girl moe that goes for the "protective big brother instinct" can get to me too. Probably because I have two little sisters and always wanted to be the protective big brother for them. (Instead they saw me as The Rival, that and their punching bag since big brother wouldn't punch back).

I've mentioned this before, but I think part of the reason that some people associate moe exclusively with vulnerable characters is because of how many English speaking fans were introduced to the term: namely, by Haruhi applying to the term to Mikuru. This was followed up a few months later by descriptions of Kanon as a "moe show", which kind of reinforced the notion. Other moe shows had aired prior to these, including action oriented ones like Nanoha and Shana, but there was not awareness that was what they were.

I also agree that Haruhi, Nanoha and Matsuri are all very useful for illustrating moe. Rin Tohsaka is another good example or a fairly mature, non-passive moe character, her flaws are basically that she's a bit terse and prone to getting flustered.


It makes them moe to someone. Personally though, I'm only inclined to call a character moe if either are moe to me or they exhibit traits that are broadly agreed to be moe. Sorry if that's not very clear.

I would agree its more of an attraction on a mental or emotional level - probably more the latter, since when I say "brain melt", it basically means the character makes you feel kind of like you're high on something.:heh: And yes, it is open to a lot of interpretation.

Again, I'd say the hallmark of moe is the emotional appeal. That said, I'd tend to say that moe and physical attractiveness go together "like peanut butter and chocolate", AKA very well. Mio and Kotomi certainly have nice figures.

I agree with Triple_R, Revy is a good example of a character that could be considered attractive and yet doesn't meet the criteria for moe.

Matsuri does have a tragic past but I don't tend to think of her as moe for that reason simply because she's so cheerful and playful for most of the anime.

Yeah, I wouldn't tend to think of Revy from Black Lagoon as being very moe, simply because I have a hard time finding personality traits that are either broadly accepted as moe or that I find moe.

The definition can be stretched pretty far though - as you're probably aware, one of my favourite examples is Bakemonogatari's Hitagi Senjougahara. Yeah, she tends to come across as pretty cold, aggressive, and even brutal - but she also exhibits a playful (if arguably a bit sadistically so) side and a loving side over the course of the series, both of which I consider moe.

I'll just keep mentioning that "moe" is a feeling that a viewer has, it is not an intrinsic property of any object/character no matter how often western anime fans misuse the word :) Yes, words shift but I'm not free to "use my own words anyway I like" as a certain Calvin did for an essay if I want to be understood: Ngl Platbn nifwo.

This could be due to how Western fans have a tendency to consider their subjective feelings are objective truth. Like the oversimplified example of:

[Japanese fan who dislikes show X]: So, what's your favorite show?
[Other Japanese fan]: X.
[Japanese fan who dislikes show X]: Oh, ok. Interesting.

[US fan who dislikes show X]: So, what's your favorite show?
[Other US fan]: X.
[US fan who dislikes show X]: Seriously? That show is shit, you know, right? Let me argue for an hour to convince you that show isn't any good and you're mistaken in liking it.

I’ve been meaning to revive this thread for a while, but only now am I getting around to it.

Anyway, I wan to talk about a few characters I’ve found moe recently, simply because I feel that there’s insights that may be missed by limiting the discussion simply to my “all time” favourites. So from fall 2010 to the present, my “most moe” list would have to include:

Zakuro (Otome Youkai Zakuro)
Akira Amatsune (Yosuga no Sora)
Charlotte Dunois (Inifinite Stratos)
Ohana Matsunae (Hana-Saku0Iroha)
Tomoe Wajima (Hana-Saku Iroha)

There’s certainly other girls I liked – Kuroneko from Ore no Imouto, Susukihotaru from Otome Youkai Zakuro, Ai from Amagami, Mayuri and Kurise from Steins;Gate, and Erio from Denpa Onna among them, and a few of those even struck me as rather unique and. But I really like these five so I’ll discuss them first (Edit: only three for tonight since I’m tired).

Spoilered to prevent spoilers and wall of text.

I love tsunderes. Usually the bitchy kind. I really can't understand why I like them, I just do.

Hmm ... well, I agree with an earlier post by Vexx who emphasized that "moe" is a very subjective feeling. What's "moe" for one person is not for another. Almost like things one considers "tasty".

That being said, I am sure there are general definitions for the term, which I will (perhaps in vain?) take a stab at describing.

The main aspect of it, to my mind, is intertwined (but not solely limited to) an attraction to purity and innocence of a thing - the attraction inclines one towards the object/subject/ whatever primarily b/c there is something about it that appeals to one, yes, but appeals in a "small and adorable way".

Sexual attraction is extremely easy to intertwine with this, and has become the easiest accompanying quality to identify if something is "moe", but it is not always present. Interestingly the sexual attraction element is usually not "bold and aggressive" sort - looking at a member of the opposite sex and saying they are "smokin' hot", for example. It is, again, most often associated with innocence of some sort - blushing, insecure, vulnerability, embarrassment, stuttering, innocent cluelessness, etc. Also, "moe" is also almost always associated with other people (not animals).

For me the main difference is between "kawaii" - here in the sense of a feeling of attraction of liking something or being drawn to something devoid of sexual attraction elements, no matter how innocent they might be (as one might react to seeing a kitten or a puppy, for example); and "moe" - here in which the elements of sexual attraction (again, however innocent) are very often present (to varying degrees) intermixed with the feeling of attraction or being drawn to something.

These are only general terms and definitions, granted, and the objects and occasions one responds to evoking them in a person will be different based on one's tastes, etc. But they are useful for organizing what goes on inside oneself and understanding a little bit of one's tastes. The difficulties of definition are further increased when one gets to the "grey areas" between kawaii and moe.

****

That all being said - I would generally say I tend to incline more toward liking heroines (being a male, you see) that are either kawaii or on the shade of moe involving purity and innocence that is at the same time very "human": Nagisa from Clannad, Akari from Aria, Sawako of Kimi ni Todoke and Flower from Half Broken Music-Box being immediate examples that jump to mind. (Also Yune from the upcoming Ikoku Meiro no Croisee anime - those who have read the manga chaps available may agree with me.)

SImilarly, although in a slightly different manner of reaction, children are extremely effective in eliciting responses from me - both "Gah! Kawaii!" when they are happy and when they are suffering it usually tears me apart inside. Ushio from Clannad and Sara Crewe from Little Princess Sara are good examples of this. When the story has them suffering and weeping I generally fall to pieces, I admit. *sigh*

---

I am not really interested in the "harder edge tsundere" category; the moments of cruelty often outweigh the moments of weakness for me. Louise from the Zero series, Taiga from Toradora (please don't throw stones - I actually found her much more tolerable in the anime than in the light novels), Seraphim from the recent Kore wa Zombie and the like.

"Lighter tsundere" candidates are not so bad for me, and they tend to also be more "real" to me somehow and thus engaging as characters. Examples would be Misaka Mikoto from the Index series, or Kagami Hiragi of Lucky Star.

When tsunderes do show their vulnerability or dere side my acceptance of it is usually much easier with the lighter variety.

****

Again, just general, broad strokes with the paintbrush here. :)

However there must be some sort of constant to define what "moe" is.

I think this discussion would be a lot more interesting if people tried to explain the difference between:

Cute girl
Beautiful girl
Sexy girl
Moe girl


Sometimes the best way to define something is to explain why it's different from the rest.

i'll give you guys my top 10 right here

i can't quite figure out what's moe for me either

so this is perfect, i might actually find out :heh:



that may or may not be a complete list, had a few drinks and sleepy as hell, i'll correct it tomorrow if i have to :heh: