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-   -   Sword Art Online - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=116397)

Krono 2012-11-24 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari (Post 4449667)
I already considered the "in-game admin console" being too convenient in SAO arc, but even having an admin card "in-game" makes even less sense: so instead of having account/character binded admin rights, they are required to have a virtual item to have such privileges... That makes Asuna's opportunity to have such thing in a very contrived way. Suffice to say, if Asuna wasn't shown using the card right away, that probably means she needs a console, which isn't present in her cage... but wait, since the cage is "PHYSICAL" (instead of being code based restriction upon her character), what would stop Yui to get there and get the card then?

Really, the VR system wasn't too bad at first, but assuming it was in the LN already, it has so many IRL features, even moreso in ALO that it makes little sense in term of program usage, no matter how "real" the initial designer, Kayaba, wanted it to be.
So having Asuna roaming around is already breaking the suspension of disbelief, especially being able to enter in such critical room without any security door (making no sense compared to the console), but the whole system has so much flaws it adds more "stupidity" to what Sugou was planning.

The logic for having some thing bound to object rather than to account has been brought up before. Sugou has a small number of accomplices, and there are likely more employees of the company with GM rights that don't know what he's doing. One misconfiguration, or hacker gaining elevated rights, and you could have strangers teleporting into their research facility, doing whatever they want. Binding the research facility things to objects instead means that any person that stumbles on Asuna can't let her out, and anyone that stumbles on one of the rooms while no one is there won't be able to operate anything, no matter what rights they have.

Beyond that, it's pretty clear that Sugou and his cohorts suffered from a bit of tunnel vision while programming their research facility. They were thinking in terms of building a real world facility in VR, rather than building a facility in VR. All the possible extra security things they can do in VR simply didn't occur to them because they were thinking of things that the real world does for security. It'd be childs play to bind Asuna like an NPC so that traveling beyond the edge of her cell would merely teleport her back to the center of it, thus removing the need for a filter for the keypad. But they were thinking in terms of how one would imprison someone in a real world cell, and mimicking that.

Ruby Princess 2012-11-24 16:01

Admins are invincible...?

*casts Firaga on relentless to test this out*

Clarste 2012-11-24 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by miroku2192 (Post 4449722)
Gonna be so awkward if Suguha is around to see Kirito scream "ASUNAAAAA", and Asuna to scream KAZUTOOOOO"

Why would Asuna use his real name? She called him Kirito for 2 years, and even after they were married. When they get together in real life I'm sure she'd keep calling him Kirito. It would just become a pet name for the couple.

relentlessflame 2012-11-24 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krono (Post 4449793)
Beyond that, it's pretty clear that Sugou and his cohorts suffered from a bit of tunnel vision while programming their research facility. They were thinking in terms of building a real world facility in VR, rather than building a facility in VR. All the possible extra security things they can do in VR simply didn't occur to them because they were thinking of things that the real world does for security. It'd be childs play to bind Asuna like an NPC so that traveling beyond the edge of her cell would merely teleport her back to the center of it, thus removing the need for a filter for the keypad. But they were thinking in terms of how one would imprison someone in a real world cell, and mimicking that.

Yeah, this is one of the persistent oddities about this story -- they keep building virtual realities that are like real life, rather than employing concepts that are clearly not possible in real life. Perhaps they don't understand the underlying code well enough to do anything but "mod" the system by creating objects and making them obey in-game rules.

(It sort of reminds me in an odd way of "skeuomorphism" -- like when you use the Podcast app on an iOS device and it's designed to look like a tape player, even though they could do whatever they want to make an interface that's way more intuitive and easy-to-use. Some people really like reproducing reality using technology...)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruby Princess (Post 4449798)
Admins are invincible...?

*casts Firaga on relentless to test this out*

/changes status to absorb fire
/is fully-healed

:heh:

Awrya 2012-11-24 16:37

First thing that came to mind was why Asuna never tried flying/hovering with her wings while she was hold captive? If she knew how to fly, she could have jumped from the world tree, used her wings to slow down her fall near ground and safely land in Aarun. There she could have made a random player contact a GM and have him log her out.
I know there are a few flaws, like you wouldn't be able to get down from the world tree (wall from patch) or her wings are only decoration, but it would have been worth trying (if she could fly/hover in the first place).

Wow, those few seconds showing her relieved face would have been more than enough for her to press log out, but the author just had to decide that she was to be the maiden, waiting for her prince riding on a white horse. There was nothing that prevented her from waiting, at least until they were positioned further away, making it more difficult to spot her.

I'm betting those scientists chose tentacle monsters, because they offered more arms to feel up NPCs. Another interesting fact is that Asuna biting his tentacle caused considerable pain, while Kirito getting slashed by Eugene simply continued steamrolling. ALO's pain level can be increased to, or at least close to, real life pain.

So Suguha knew Asuna's character name, probably because Kirito kept saying it, but she never knew his character name. As a result, when Yui informed him of Asuna, she was rejected (again), without her knowing.

Kaoru Chujo 2012-11-24 16:39

Asuna, for all her smarts and skills, is being portrayed as the damsel in distress that the hero has to rescue. That can't be denied, but it is just part of this kind of shounen story, so maybe we can not feel too bad about it and simply enjoy it and admire the stuff she does accomplish. And when the climax comes, I hope/suspect everyone will have a role to play: Kirito, Yui, Suguha/Leafa, and Asuna.

Actually, I blamed Asuna for (a) going through the tunnel rather than trying to fly down bit by bit on the outside, (b) choosing to go to the lab, which is the most likely place to meet Mr. Evil. There was a "system" room that might also have held a console. There are some little anomalies in the story, but not bad enough to ruin things, for me.

I thought the slug-like scientists were a joke about slimy fat otaku.

I've been away from this show for a while and have just caught up with the last ten episodes or so over the past few days. I have to repeat what an excellent show this is. Good animation, good characters, good adventure, good romance. And Matsuoka Yoshitsugu is outstanding as Kirito. Perfect voice.

With the abundance of bro-con situations in anime this season, this is the most interesting. Very inventive and high-class way of giving the show a bit of acceptable incestuousness.

Girls und Panzer has jumped up to be the most popular show on 2channel right now, with well over a hundred posts an hour right now. But SAO -- the most popular show of the summer season -- is holding its own, with big runs of posts after every new episode. So far, over a bit more than a cour and a half, it has received 257,000+ posts, about twice as many as GuP has right now.

Clarste 2012-11-24 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awrya (Post 4449833)
First thing that came to mind was why Asuna never tried flying/hovering with her wings while she was hold captive? If she knew how to fly, she could have jumped from the world tree, used her wings to slow down her fall and arrived in Aarun. There she could have made a random player contact a GM and have him log her out.

As far as she knows, the wings are purely cosmetic. I don't believe Sugou ever sat down and gave her a pitch about all the gameplay features of ALO.

Also, apparently there's an invisible wall now so that wouldn't work anyway (not that she'd know that).

Anh_Minh 2012-11-24 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako (Post 4449773)
Asuna couldn't run around John McClane-style for a couple episodes fighting scientists and trying to free the minds until Kirito and Yui show up to get her out of the game?

You talk like "scientists" are little nerds that jocks can casually shove into lockers. And like Asuna's an action heroine.

But within ALO, those guys are indestructible, nigh omnipotent gods, and Asuna's just a player. Without even her sword, not that it'd help her.

Quote:

"Choose" the avatar? It's not like that's one of the default character types in the game -- someone had to design it for the scientists. Why? You might argue that tentacles are more effective for manipulating multiple controls, except there's no need to physically manipulate anything in the game -- the scientists could do everything with their minds much more efficiently. But we're supposed to accept that Sugou allowed his company to spend time and money developing these tentacle monster avatars just to satisfy the fetishes of his employees?
They said why they look like that. It's an experiment to see what happens when you put a human mind into a (virtual) non-humanoid body.

And no, they can't do it "with their minds", in so far as manipulating your virtual body isn't doing stuff with your mind. You couldn't manipulate a menu by thought in SAO, and you can't do it in ALO.


Quote:

Given that Kirito is able to dual-wield in a game where dual-wielding isn't part of the system, it seems that computer-assisted-skills aren't necessary to being a bad-ass. So why should Kirito be the only one who's able to be OPed without computer support? Besides, Sugou's not around -- Asuna's dealing with scientists in the game.
He can dual wield because the physics engine of ALO allows it. He can't destroy immortal objects.

Dengar 2012-11-24 17:44

Kirito has no sense of urgency? My ass.

Awww poor Suguha.

Raise your hand if you know (more or less) what she's feeling right now.

Rising Dragon 2012-11-24 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar (Post 4449886)
Raise your hand if you know (more or less) what she's feeling right now.

*raises hand* Cold and wet?

Kaoru Chujo 2012-11-24 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarste (Post 4449838)
As far as she knows, the wings are purely cosmetic. I don't believe Sugou ever sat down and gave her a pitch about all the gameplay features of ALO. Also, apparently there's an invisible wall now so that wouldn't work anyway (not that she'd know that).

Good point about her maybe not knowing she can fly. Maybe that's what we have to think. As for the invisible wall, she might run into guards even before that. But perhaps there are other ways back into the tree at whatever level she gets to.

By the way, at this point I think Suguha will take off after Kirito and save him when his wings tire. Just a guess, lol.

Kamui04 2012-11-24 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh (Post 4449856)
And no, they can't do it "with their minds", in so far as manipulating your virtual body isn't doing stuff with your mind. You couldn't manipulate a menu by thought in SAO, and you can't do it in ALO.

Well technically it's all in the mind, since actions in SAO and ALO are done in the mind only. But to open up menus and click buttons you still need to think/perform the gesture in your mind which the NerverGear/Amusphere reflects in the action being performed in game. But now thinking about it, one could argue that making gestures uses the motor control part of your brain that the NerverGear intercepts and on the other side thinking only without involving motor control uses other parts of your brain. But we don't know specifically which parts of your brain the NerverGear is able to intercept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo (Post 4449890)
Good point about her maybe not knowing she can fly. Maybe that's what we have to think. As for the invisible wall, she might run into guards even before that. But perhaps there are other ways back into the tree at whatever level she gets to.

Even Kirito had to ask Yui for the instructions, on how to bring up the controller with a gesture, and don't even mention advanced flight.

Mubyoshi 2012-11-24 18:09

It'd be nice if this game had that WoW guy that killed admins from Southpark haha. Would make life so much easier for Asuna.

Insane 2012-11-24 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awrya (Post 4449833)
First thing that came to mind was why Asuna never tried flying/hovering with her wings while she was hold captive?

In the first place, could the players even use their wings to fly inside the building?

Clarste 2012-11-24 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo (Post 4449890)
Good point about her maybe not knowing she can fly. Maybe that's what we have to think. As for the invisible wall, she might run into guards even before that. But perhaps there are other ways back into the tree at whatever level she gets to.

By the way, at this point I think Suguha will take off after Kirito and save him when his wings tire. Just a guess, lol.

I meant that there's an invisible wall in the sky. Leafa mentioned it. If she jumped off she'd land somewhere above the clouds.

The Green One 2012-11-24 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar (Post 4449886)
Kirito has no sense of urgency? My ass.

Awww poor Suguha.

Raise your hand if you know (more or less) what she's feeling right now.

Just wait until she figures out that the guy who's shoulder she just cried on about her broken heart is the same guy who broke it to begin with.

Rising Dragon 2012-11-24 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarste (Post 4449924)
I meant that there's an invisible wall in the sky. Leafa mentioned it. If she jumped off she'd land somewhere above the clouds.

Fun thing about such walls in games--they can be one-way. It's entirely possible if she jumped off, she'd go right through it, but if she tried flying up afterwards, it'd block her path.

NoemiChan 2012-11-24 18:56

Just watched the subbed and damn I'm glad to see Asuna-chan back. Too bad the creepy, perverted slugs took much of the time. Grrr...

So Alfeim seems to be Sugou's virtual storage for his experiments? Creepy. So are the "kidnapped" players actually playing the game or are they keep in stored.

Nothing much more explained but what save this episode is the card Asuna has taken and Kirito's desperate face... Thanks Yui-chan!!!! Your Dad is going all out again!!! Can't wait for the next episode....!!!

The Green One 2012-11-24 18:58

If she has no reliable way of knowing if she could fly, would anyone with common sense jump off the branch and into the sky like that? A fall like that would obviously kill her if she couldn't fly and she has no idea if her nerve gear will kill her or not if she dies.

No sane person would take that risk. We in a meta sense might take that risk but for a character in the story it would be suicidal and with good reason.

relentlessflame 2012-11-24 19:30

In the end, keep in mind that Asuna isn't trying to get as far away from the World Tree as possible anyway, because that doesn't help her. Even if she got to the opposite end of the game world, all Sugou would have to do is to teleport her back with a press of a button; she can neither run nor hide in Alfheim. What she needed was to try to find a way out and, as a bonus, to see if she can get an more evidence to get Sugou put away. In addition, I assume she would want to ensure that she can get back to her cage if needed if she doesn't have any luck. So, based on that, I think her strategy makes as much sense as any; get into the nearby compound to look for an admin terminal and investigate Sugou's experiments while she figures (knows?) he's away. Running into other admins was obviously a risk, but I suppose it's better than nothing. The only downside is that this was basically her only chance; in the end, the only plus side is her not leaving empty-handed.


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