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monir 2012-11-17 00:14

Sword Art Online - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll
 
Welcome to the discussion thread for Sword Art Online, Episode 20.

General of the Blazing Flames - 猛炎の将 ~ Mōen no Shō

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Deltaray 2012-11-17 10:27

Wont lie, it really was worth to wait for Alicia Rue.

LoweGear 2012-11-17 10:30

END CARD GET!!!!

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Haru-kun 2012-11-17 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoweGear (Post 4441767)
END CARD GET!!!!

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Crap, how in the world did Haruyuki get in there?!?!:uhoh:

Deltaray 2012-11-17 10:39

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Now now...

holybell84 2012-11-17 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltaray (Post 4441784)
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Now now...

Spoiler for LOL:

Divini 2012-11-17 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoweGear (Post 4441767)
END CARD GET!!!!

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Yes Haru, that's how it's done. Now show Hime the same attention! ;)

RRW 2012-11-17 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltaray (Post 4441784)
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Now now...

what happens on other end

Lantern 2012-11-17 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by holybell84 (Post 4441829)
Spoiler for LOL:

Spoiler:

deep_freesze 2012-11-17 12:52

Still Raw ???

Newfan 2012-11-17 13:58

Lol, this ep had a little more fan service than usual.

I wish my Japanese was good enough to pick up on more of the conversation. :(

Klashikari 2012-11-17 14:26

You know, when the fanservice parts are better animated with more consistent sakuga than actual battle scenes, that says a lot on the direction of the episode...

Anyway, the first half was terribly slow, with the scenes being cut and disjointed by info dump, with little care about how it was a momentum break.
Second half was much better in that regard, and we have finally a much better albeit short glimpse of Kazuto concern, which had the proper vibe, although the alliance help would rather be Leefa's suggestion there :heh:

It is finally time for Asuna to make her move, although again, from a game and program perspective, I fail to see why there isn a simple directive that would deny any action done by Asuna within the game firmware... Ah well, that's Sugou for you.

One major complain here: how the hell ALO Kirito can dual wield? This skill does not exist in ALO, and here he manages to pull that without any penalty and still using obvious dual wielding moves (it isn't a mere: have 2x 1h sword equipped).
And a side note: would it be correct to assume that the Salamander Lance platoon chief claimed Kirito was with an undine player to make up for being spared by Kirito early on? That's a tad... out of proportion, especially how it affects his own faction...

bastek66 2012-11-17 14:41

http://i.minus.com/ioF4gFwTjMmjc.gif
What a nice animation.

Deltaray 2012-11-17 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari (Post 4441963)
You know, when the fanservice parts are better animated with more consistent sakuga than actual battle scenes, that says a lot on the direction of the episode...

Anyway, the first half was terribly slow, with the scenes being cut and disjointed by info dump, with little care about how it was a momentum break.
Second half was much better in that regard, and we have finally a much better albeit short glimpse of Kazuto concern, which had the proper vibe, although the alliance help would rather be Leefa's suggestion there :heh:

It is finally time for Asuna to make her move, although again, from a game and program perspective, I fail to see why there isn a simple directive that would deny any action done by Asuna within the game firmware... Ah well, that's Sugou for you.

One major complain here: how the hell ALO Kirito can dual wield? This skill does not exist in ALO, and here he manages to pull that without any penalty and still using obvious dual wielding moves (it isn't a mere: have 2x 1h sword equipped).
And a side note: would it be correct to assume that the Salamander Lance platoon chief claimed Kirito was with an undine player to make up for being spared by Kirito early on? That's a tad... out of proportion, especially how it affects his own faction...

Most likely wield system is "free" you have your slots for sword and so on, but you can still wield something, sure it doesn't give you any bonus but it can still do basic damage based on how fast you swing it, as ALO damage formula was.

Attack speed + weapon damage stats + hit location - opponent armor defence = damage.

RRW 2012-11-17 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by bastek66 (Post 4441971)

DAT Animation Budget :twitch:

even her ass is shaking :bow:

Krono 2012-11-17 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari (Post 4441963)
One major complain here: how the hell ALO Kirito can dual wield? This skill does not exist in ALO, and here he manages to pull that without any penalty and still using obvious dual wielding moves (it isn't a mere: have 2x 1h sword equipped).

No sword skills exist in ALO, the weapon stat is used for something other than what skills you can use. All sword combat is just swinging a sword around without any system controlled attack patterns.

As such, holding a sword in either hand isn't considered an erroneous configuration, and lacks the penalty SAO had of being unable to use sword skills. In other words, any one can dual wield in ALO, as long as they have the skill and coordination to wield two swords at once. Kirito, having used dual wield in SAO for months, can dual wield as he's had the necessary practice, and unlike in the real world, he can pull off duplicating the pattern of some sword skills in ALO.

Znail 2012-11-17 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltaray (Post 4441979)
Most likely wield system is "free" you have your slots for sword and so on, but you can still wield something, sure it doesn't give you any bonus but it can still do basic damage based on how fast you swing it, as ALO damage formula was.

Attack speed + weapon damage stats + hit location - opponent armor defence = damage.

I think it was Agil that told Kirito right from the start. There is no Swordskills in ALO, that means it's all basic attacks done entirely by the players. It also means that the only limit on what weapons you can use is the weapons you as a person can handle and thus dual wielding just requires knowing how to do it. This means that Kirito wont be the only one able to do it as there are some martial arts that practice dual wielding. And of course there are some actual ambidextrous people that can use both hands independently by birth (I have actually met a girl that could do that, she could write with both hands at the same).

Yusei Fudo 2012-11-17 15:18

very awesome episode 8D

Twin swords is back!

Dark Wing 2012-11-17 15:21

Okay that battle was awsome!

nb4 trolls arguing "HOW CANS HE DUELZ WEILDZ!?" :heh:

ZGMF-X10A 2012-11-17 15:22

lol so that extra skill only applies when the person blocks and not when the sword clashes. I remember saying that Kirito is in a new game will he use Nitoyru again and now we see it. haha he just took the sword from leafa

Klashikari 2012-11-17 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltaray (Post 4441979)
Most likely wield system is "free" you have your slots for sword and so on, but you can still wield something, sure it doesn't give you any bonus but it can still do basic damage based on how fast you swing it, as ALO damage formula was.

Attack speed + weapon damage stats + hit location - opponent armor defence = damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krono (Post 4441989)
No sword skills exist in ALO, the weapon stat is used for something other than what skills you can use. All sword combat is just swinging a sword around without any system controlled attack patterns.

As such, holding a sword in either hand isn't considered an erroneous configuration, and lacks the penalty SAO had of being unable to use sword skills. In other words, any one can dual wield in ALO, as long as they have the skill and coordination to wield two swords at once. Kirito, having used dual wield in SAO for months, can dual wield as he's had the necessary practice, and unlike in the real world, he can pull off duplicating the pattern of some sword skills in ALO.

But if there is no penalty or any requirement for that... Why did he start with a single sword, then a huge 2 hander? Considering his style, that would have been the default choice for him, but he went on the complete opposite, even after gearing himself appropriately (which only required in game money).
It really looks like they wanted to make a parallel with SAO, by having a "last minute hidden move/tactic" which is... inconsistent in ALO case.

RRW 2012-11-17 15:30

Maybe he dont want many people to know that SAO kirito is currently playing ALO. which may cause more trouble like the admin will notice his SAO skill bug and quickly restarted his skill

Klashikari 2012-11-17 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRW (Post 4442009)
Maybe he dont want many people to know that SAO kirito is currently playing ALO. which may cause more trouble like the admin will notice his SAO skill bug and quickly restarted his skill

There is no way people would make such guess, because aside of those who were responsible for the investigation and the actual players, no one knows about the SAO players, otherwise ALO Kirito would have been spotted the moment he shows up, and even Suguha would have exposed him right from the get go.
And since it appears dual wielding has no requirement or penalty, other players most likely tried and/or use that style, so him going dual wielding on the last moment has no weight whatsoever in term of secrecy.

ZGMF-X10A 2012-11-17 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRW (Post 4442009)
Maybe he dont want many people to know that SAO kirito is currently playing ALO. which may cause more trouble like the admin will notice his SAO skill bug and quickly restarted his skill

I find it funny how no one else took the name kirito. People always steal my names, and I have to pick a new name in every mmo.

ookamigirl 2012-11-17 15:34

Nice save Kirito! ^^
Kirito vs General Eugene!
That was a really really nice fight. Impressive!
He sure made an impression on the Salamanders.
Him and Leafa have become pretty inseparable.
Looks like Asuna will save herself before he gets to her LOL

Oroboro 2012-11-17 15:35

Without the sword skills, (32 hit combo!) there probably isn't a huge advantage to dual wielding. Even though Kirito's had a lot of practice, it's probably pretty still a difficult thing to pull off, and the biggest advantage it gets you is just the fact that people aren't used to fighting someone dual wielding. (And using it to cheat Eugene's sword.) So the "surprise" is really the only reason it's effective at all. Had Eugene been a shield user, he probably would've been able to give DW!Kirito a lot more trouble, just like Heathcliff.

Also man, Kirito has absolutely no problem lying his ass off at the drop of a hat. :p

RRW 2012-11-17 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari (Post 4442012)
There is no way people would make such guess, because aside of those who were responsible for the investigation and the actual players, no one knows about the SAO players, otherwise ALO Kirito would have been spotted the moment he shows up, and even Suguha would have exposed him right from the get go.
And since it appears dual wielding has no requirement or penalty, other players most likely tried and/or use that style, so him going dual wielding on the last moment has no weight whatsoever in term of secrecy.

But it certainly will attract attention. I mean if the story about "A Super Powerful Springan (which treated as weakest group IIRC) That Can Dual Wield Coming Out of Nowhere" spread out. it definitely make admin interested and make some investigation.

heck even if the admin dont know who is SAO Kirito. they will still suspicious how the hell ALO Kirito manage to nearly max all of his skill in 2-3 days. they probably just reset it anyway.

Basically Kirito want to play safe. Beside why would he dual wield when he can kill most of ALO enemy in one slash. ;)

Klashikari 2012-11-17 15:51

If Kazuto wanted to play it safe, he wouldn't even use Kirito character name to begin with. It makes you wonder if he really is trying to hide his identity with that. Frankly, the name itself is already a huge give away that the player has some connection to SAO (either an investigator or a SAO player, or Kirito player himself), so having sword dual wield in there wouldn't make any difference.
Also, since there is no dual wielding skill, and according to other posters above, Dual Wield is NOT a special skill and has no requirement whatsoever, so the dual wielding issue has absolutely no relevancy to SAO kirito at all.

Also, players stopped to question ALO Kirito strength, Leefa included, despite it is abnormal no matter how you look at it. Yet, since they don't even think he is cheating, they have really no suspicion, past "he is a damn powerful player, alright!". The only ones who may have suspicions would be the admins, and that's only because they would realize that "ALO Kirito" stats is way too high for his game time.

Krono 2012-11-17 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari (Post 4442007)
But if there is no penalty or any requirement for that... Why did he start with a single sword, then a huge 2 hander? Considering his style, that would have been the default choice for him, but he went on the complete opposite, even after gearing himself appropriately (which only required in game money).
It really looks like they wanted to make a parallel with SAO, by having a "last minute hidden move/tactic" which is... inconsistent in ALO case.

Kirito just tends to default to single wielding. Remember, while he's very good with 2 swords, he spent far more time in SAO wielding just one sword. His secret got out just under three weeks before they escaped SAO, which isn't much time to adjust to not having to keep it a secret, and use it as a default.

Klashikari 2012-11-17 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krono (Post 4442026)
Kirito just tends to default to single wielding. Remember, while he's very good with 2 swords, he spent far more time in SAO wielding just one sword. His secret got out just under three weeks before they escaped SAO, which isn't much time to adjust to not having to keep it a secret, and use it as a default.

Remember that SAO Kirito was using a single sword because he didn't want to stand out, considering he didn't know how to unlock dual wield, which means that he would use it if it wasn't for that issue. On that point, he keeps using both swords, which speak of itself.

Here, he -bought- his gear, and still have enough money to have high end equipment for an army as far as Sakuya implied with her reaction. Therefore, Kazuto had the opportunity to buy a DW set (heck, he could even buy the same sword twice then), yet he -didn't do that-.
Basically, there was absolutely no plan to have a dual wield set, and that despite there is no requirement for that.

It is a simple contradiction, really: there is no Dual Wield skill in ALO. By definition, it means anyone can do that. Since ALO Kirito could pull that just like that (and he certainly had NO time to test it alone, unlike in SAO), it means there is no special requirement for that, except perhaps a certain amount of stats.
Due to how Kazuto went for Leefa's sword, it simply means he knew it was feasible from the get go, confirming Dual Wield is a common and possible setup for anyone. Yet, despite having the resource and possibility to go DW right from the get go, he -didn't-.

Rising Dragon 2012-11-17 15:57

I imagine he used it as a default for most of the time he had the Dual Wield skill, actually, because most of the time he was alone and therefore had no need to hide it--and even then apparently a couple trusted people knew about it beforehand, including Lizbeth.

Oroboro 2012-11-17 16:03

Think of it this way. Without sword skills, Dual Wielding isn't better, it's just different. The same as choosing to wield an axe or a sword or a mace. It otherwise offers the exact same benefits as dual wielding in real life. Which is to say, very little for a lot of effort.

Dual wielding gave Kirito the edge because Eugene wasn't expecting it and didn't have time to figure out how to defend against it. Had Kirito been dual wielding from the start, Eugene would've probably been able to adjust his fighting style accordingly.

Klashikari 2012-11-17 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oroboro (Post 4442035)
Think of it this way. Without sword skills, Dual Wielding isn't better, it's just different.

This is why I was wondering if there wasn't any penalty due to the lack of requirement, as the absence of requirement means it is on the same level as the other style, which means the damage should be changed so it doesn't outperform.
Quote:

Dual wielding gave Kirito the edge because Eugene wasn't expecting it and didn't have time to figure out how to defend against it. Had Kirito been dual wielding from the start, Eugene would've probably been able to adjust his fighting style accordingly.
The way how Eugene acted after being blasted once doesn't really indicate so. Clearly he wasn't expecting Kirito's initial block, but that's far as it goes. There is not really anything that would make Eugene faring better from the get go if Kirito had two swords to begin with, unless he had a shield hidden somewhere.

I guess they missed the chance to pull some narration, similar to what happened with SAO Kirito resorting to DW the first time, at least the fact he resorted to dual wielding there make a little more sense, strategic wise, but what I commented was the very reason why he didn't opt to this from the beginning in ALO, despite the lack of requirement (and that means: there is no apperent issue with it).

Znail 2012-11-17 16:20

Dual wiedlig would also be specifically good against someone using a two handed sword as it's difficult to use a slower weapon to parry attacks from multiple directions. But I agree that Kirito should have gotten himself a second sword while he was at it and I guess it just slipped his mind that dual wielding would be better here as well.

Oroboro 2012-11-17 16:22

I think Eugene would've fared better. (But probably still not have won. :p)

Glancing at the episode again, it seems as if, just like the illusion from the last episode, the most important thing it did was grant him an opening which allowed him to unbalance and quickly overwhelm.

I do have to wonder now why he didn't buy a backup weapon anyway, even if he wasn't planning on using it most of the time. Or maybe he did, and wanted Lyfa's sword because it was better? /shrug

RRW 2012-11-17 16:24

Kazuto doesn't know that his SAO skill will carry over when he created his character. Of course when he realize it, he doesn't want admin come and reset his stat. so he want to be low profile as possible and avoid flashy stuff to avoid attention (even thought he already done couple of flashy stuff till this point :rolleyes:).

anyway back to original argument. Kirito probably not bothered to use Dual wield since he can defeat his enemy with one sword until Eugene where he use his last resort (Dual wield).

if Kirito don't have his SAO skill he probably use dual wield from start

Klashikari 2012-11-17 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRW (Post 4442051)
anyway back to original argument. Kirito probably not bothered to use Dual wield since he can defeat his enemy with one sword until Eugene where he use his last resort (Dual wield).

And that's the problem: Kazuto was shown in SAO and ALO as someone who -bothers- even with the single trivial thing, as a hardcore gamer. If he didn't bother, he wouldn't even buy a different armor set and weapon, as he could exterminate high level players with scrubby gear. He did optimize himself with what he could get (so high end equipment with his money, instead of treasure hunting), which makes you wonder why the backup weapon idea wasn't there to begin with.
Quote:

if Kirito don't have his SAO skill he probably use dual wield from start
It isn't a if: he simply doesn't have them. When he checked his character, only his stats are reflecting SAO Kirito. However, skills and items were garbled, so it means they simply don't exist, which include dual wielding.
As such, it is a regular playstyle, not a "special ability that allows one to use 2 weapons at once".

Polarpew 2012-11-17 16:32

What a fantastic fight scene, gosh that was a treat.

[mod edit: remove allusion to future content]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari (Post 4442055)
And that's the problem: Kazuto was shown in SAO and ALO as someone who -bothers- even with the single trivial thing, as a hardcore gamer. If he didn't bother, he wouldn't even buy a different armor set and weapon, as he could exterminate high level players with scrubby gear. He did optimize himself with what he could get (so high end equipment with his money, instead of treasure hunting), which makes you wonder why the backup weapon idea wasn't there to begin with.
It isn't a if: he simply doesn't have them. When he checked his character, only his stats are reflecting SAO Kirito. However, skills and items were garbled, so it means they simply don't exist, which include dual wielding.
As such, it is a regular playstyle, not a "special ability that allows one to use 2 weapons at once".

He only used dual wield because the bonus skill effect of gram doesn't activate after reverting back into corporeal for a brief delay, hence the second sword can perform a block/ parry. Kirito didn't really focus on stats or gear in ALF because he was too tunnel on saving Asuna and given his deadline, no time for getting real gear, only highest he can find in npc vendors.

Dark Wing 2012-11-17 16:38

Isn't it possible that Kirito didn't think he needed to duel wield in this game?

Also I thought when he registered to ALO the user name he pick was just a different spelling of Kirito using different characters?

RRW 2012-11-17 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari (Post 4442055)
And that's the problem: Kazuto was shown in SAO and ALO as someone who -bothers- even with the single trivial thing, as a hardcore gamer. If he didn't bother, he wouldn't even buy a different armor set and weapon, as he could exterminate high level players with scrubby gear. He did optimize himself with what he could get (so high end equipment with his money, instead of treasure hunting), which makes you wonder why the backup weapon idea wasn't there to begin with.

But you can see that ALO kirito is not as bothered as SAO kirito. he clearly more easy going in ALO than in SAO. hence why he is not as serious compare to SAO ver

he probably think like.

*Start ALO and get SAO skill transferred*

"Hehehe, now i have almost max skill and reliable navigator. i probably can clean this game without using dual wield since apparently this game is easier than SAO (since there is no permanent death and such)"

*Fight Eugene*

"Oh wait, I DO need my Dual wield skill here"


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