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-   -   [Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=83581)

Jan-Poo 2010-12-19 21:50

The lack of communication and impaired social interaction is what distinguish autism from a plethora of other development disorders.

You do not diagnose autism on a child just because throws a tantrum.
And having a fervid imagination is not characteristic of autism at all.

Zero Sora 2010-12-19 21:58

I know that the "How dunnit" has been explained, but I'm taking about us knowing all the tricks used for all the murders. That is the only thing I consider unresolved about the how, why and who dunnit.

Jan-Poo 2010-12-19 22:21

Oh, it's officially MORE THAN ONE THOUSAAAAAND!!!


@zero You really think that the whydunnit was explained? Certainly we have some major hints, but I think we lack a major piece to really find a sense in the culprit's actions.

zorahk 2010-12-19 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 3399265)
Oh, it's officially MORE THAN ONE THOUSAAAAAND!!!


@zero You really think that the whydunnit was explained? Certainly we have some major hints, but I think we lack a major piece to really find a sense in the culprit's actions.

I think it was more than adequately hinted at in the end of episode 6, right when Amakusa gets off the phone...

Raiza Sunozaki 2010-12-19 23:50

Feels nice to be back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 3399265)
Oh, it's officially MORE THAN ONE THOUSAAAAAND!!!


@zero You really think that the whydunnit was explained? Certainly we have some major hints, but I think we lack a major piece to really find a sense in the culprit's actions.

There was a whydunnit explained-for the wrong criminals. It's cruel, it's poor (in terms of a good story) but it doesn't change the fact that Kyrie and Rudolf have nothing against killing people for the money they need. More so, if we're to go with what Kyrie was speculating, every one of the adults, after reaching the gold, would've eventually reached the conclusion that killing the others for the sake of money was necessary. It just happens that since Kyrie has the sharpest mind out of all the adults, she will always (according to Bern) reach this conclusion first.
However, if the possibility exists that a culprit exists that doesn't kill for the money, which is what I think Battler was trying to explain to Ange at the end of Episode 7, then we still have an unanswered whydunnit.

And I have a question that's been jumping around in my mind. If it's been covered in the several-hundred pages I've missed, so sue me. I've been gone a long time.
What's people's opinions on where Bern stands? On one side, some of her actions in the early Episodes and a chunk of Episode 7, not to mention her disputable connections to Rika, make her out to be a benevolent character, helping people understand important things but never accepting their thanks.
And then... you have the twisted, destructive personality she shows at the end of Episode 4, throughout Episode 5 and 6, and at the end of Episode 7. Despite how vicious and heartless she can be, I can't seem to shake the feeling that it doesn't quite fit her.
What do you people think?

Helmet-kun 2010-12-19 23:58

Arguably, I think Bern is very bitter. She plays the bad guy for kicks when she gets bored (like people who play Grand Theft Auto and the like) and is very blunt.

If there was one line that could sum her up, she doesn't care, but she'll humor you.

Jan-Poo 2010-12-20 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by zorahk (Post 3399318)
I think it was more than adequately hinted at in the end of episode 6, right when Amakusa gets off the phone...

How is that a whydunnit?

If you could simply say "money" and solve the question it would be a no brainer.
All those paragraphs about "understanding the heart of the culprit" can't possibly have passed over your head.

This is not a true understanding, it's cold, it's heartless.

loctar87 2010-12-20 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki (Post 3399383)
Feels nice to be back.



There was a whydunnit explained-for the wrong criminals. It's cruel, it's poor (in terms of a good story) but it doesn't change the fact that Kyrie and Rudolf have nothing against killing people for the money they need. More so, if we're to go with what Kyrie was speculating, every one of the adults, after reaching the gold, would've eventually reached the conclusion that killing the others for the sake of money was necessary. It just happens that since Kyrie has the sharpest mind out of all the adults, she will always (according to Bern) reach this conclusion first.
However, if the possibility exists that a culprit exists that doesn't kill for the money, which is what I think Battler was trying to explain to Ange at the end of Episode 7, then we still have an unanswered whydunnit.

And I have a question that's been jumping around in my mind. If it's been covered in the several-hundred pages I've missed, so sue me. I've been gone a long time.
What's people's opinions on where Bern stands? On one side, some of her actions in the early Episodes and a chunk of Episode 7, not to mention her disputable connections to Rika, make her out to be a benevolent character, helping people understand important things but never accepting their thanks.
And then... you have the twisted, destructive personality she shows at the end of Episode 4, throughout Episode 5 and 6, and at the end of Episode 7. Despite how vicious and heartless she can be, I can't seem to shake the feeling that it doesn't quite fit her.
What do you people think?

Well, the motive for Kyrie is obvious. The motive for Beato is the one that raises questions.

Bern is evil. There's absolutely no doubt about that. But it isn't just senseless evil. She enjoys cruelly exposing the truth, and make others suffer from it. I think of her as a symbol of the harshness of reality. The witch of Miracles is only there to guarantee that there aren't any.

Tyabann 2010-12-20 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki (Post 3399383)
Despite how vicious and heartless she can be, I can't seem to shake the feeling that it doesn't quite fit her.
What do you people think?

I still think that she's supposed to represent some aspect of Beatrice. I mean, look at how much her behaviour in Ep5 mirrors that of Beato's in Ep2.

Raiza Sunozaki 2010-12-20 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by loctar87 (Post 3399411)
Bern is evil. There's absolutely no doubt about that. But it isn't just senseless evil. She enjoys cruelly exposing the truth, and make others suffer from it. I think of her as a symbol of the harshness of reality. The witch of Miracles is only there to guarantee that there aren't any.

Funny. For the part of me who is convinced Bern is in no way a benevolent character, my idea of her is a complete contrast to yours.
I see her cruetly as purely senseless. She's become so twisted from whatever hell she was trapped in for some length of eternity, that she can't deal with existing with bringing harm unto others. Her and Lambda suffered the same hell, for a presumably equal amount of time. Both of them broke, but in different ways. Lambda learned to simply enjoy taking things a twisting them until they broke, laughing at it, them moving onto the next one. She's never fazed by defeat, since it's all just a game to her. Bern never found an understanding like Lambda did. She just breaks things, tears out their guts and feasts on them, but never truely enjoys it the way Lambda enjoys breaking things. Both of them are broken beyond repair, but Lambda at least can enjoy herself.
'Course, it's all speculation, considering how little we know of them, but that's what I've put together when I think she's twisted and cruel.

Jan-Poo 2010-12-20 00:28

I actually agree with you Raiza. And I really can't see anything behind Bern's actions apart from the necessity of satisfying her sadistic desires.

loctar87 2010-12-20 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki (Post 3399426)
Funny. For the part of me who is convinced Bern is in no way a benevolent character, my idea of her is a complete contrast to yours.
I see her cruetly as purely senseless. She's become so twisted from whatever hell she was trapped in for some length of eternity, that she can't deal with existing with bringing harm unto others. Her and Lambda suffered the same hell, for a presumably equal amount of time. Both of them broke, but in different ways. Lambda learned to simply enjoy taking things a twisting them until they broke, laughing at it, them moving onto the next one. She's never fazed by defeat, since it's all just a game to her. Bern never found an understanding like Lambda did. She just breaks things, tears out their guts and feasts on them, but never truely enjoys it the way Lambda enjoys breaking things. Both of them are broken beyond repair, but Lambda at least can enjoy herself.
'Course, it's all speculation, considering how little we know of them, but that's what I've put together when I think she's twisted and cruel.

Hmmm. I don't think something like senseless evil exists in this story, which places so much emphasis on love and heart. I imagine that if we are ever given a look into Bern's past, we'll find an innocent little girl whose dreams were brutally and completely crushed. Once you suffer that kind of misfortune, it's not unthinkable that you need to do the same to others to make yourself feel better.

Jan-Poo 2010-12-20 00:40

Quote:

Once you suffer that kind of misfortune, it's not unthinkable that you need to do the same to others to make yourself feel better.
That's what despicable persons do. Rather than preventing others from falling in the same despair you fell in, you try to make them suffer as much as you do. That's selfish... and evil...

Raiza Sunozaki 2010-12-20 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 3399432)
I actually agree with you Raiza. And I really can't see anything behind Bern's actions apart from the necessity of satisfying her sadistic desires.

Well, as I said, I'm not completely convinced. Something feels... off. She's either completely twisted, or she's trying to hard to appear that way. Whenever she goes somewhat nice, like during Beato's funeral, it feels like a natural way for her to act.

Quote:

Originally Posted by loctar87 (Post 3399440)
Hmmm. I don't think something like senseless evil exists in this story, which places so much emphasis on love and heart. I imagine that if we are ever given a look into Bern's past, we'll find an innocent little girl whose dreams were brutally and completely crushed. Once you suffer that kind of misfortune, it's not unthinkable that you need to do the same to others to make yourself feel better.

I personally have never felt Bern fit in with this story, honestly. Not that the story would've been better off without her, that's not what I mean. Where all the other characters could talk about love and it's worth, she ignored it and went on with her mission of turning it into a heartless mystery and ripping out its guts.
To me, it almost seems as if this birdcage of a game, constructed by Lambda, was built out of the one thing Bern would never again understand and sympathize with: love. Because she can't sympathize with love, she acts out against those who can love and do love, senselessly destroying it in desperate attempts to satsisfy herself.

loctar87 2010-12-20 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 3399445)
That's what despicable persons do. Rather than preventing others from falling in the same despair you fell in, you try to make them suffer as much as you do. That's selfish... and evil...

But not senseless. People are complicated. The ideal answer isn't one that everyone can come to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki (Post 3399450)
I personally have never felt Bern fit in with this story, honestly. Not that the story would've been better off without her, that's not what I mean. Where all the other characters could talk about love and it's worth, she ignored it and went on with her mission of turning it into a heartless mystery and ripping out its guts.
To me, it almost seems as if this birdcage of a game, constructed by Lambda, was built out of the one thing Bern would never again understand and sympathize with: love. Because she can't sympathize with love, she acts out against those who can love and do love, senselessly destroying it in desperate attempts to satsisfy herself.

That is another way to interpret it. Bern is cruel and evil. She's never going to be likable. But she might be understandable.

Whether you interpret her as the cruel truth incarnate, or someone who just doesn't understand love, it doesn't make much difference. Of course, I kind of like my own interpretation.

CainSonozaki 2010-12-20 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki (Post 3399426)
Funny. For the part of me who is convinced Bern is in no way a benevolent character, my idea of her is a complete contrast to yours.
I see her cruetly as purely senseless. She's become so twisted from whatever hell she was trapped in for some length of eternity, that she can't deal with existing with bringing harm unto others. Her and Lambda suffered the same hell, for a presumably equal amount of time. Both of them broke, but in different ways. Lambda learned to simply enjoy taking things a twisting them until they broke, laughing at it, them moving onto the next one. She's never fazed by defeat, since it's all just a game to her. Bern never found an understanding like Lambda did. She just breaks things, tears out their guts and feasts on them, but never truely enjoys it the way Lambda enjoys breaking things. Both of them are broken beyond repair, but Lambda at least can enjoy herself.
'Course, it's all speculation, considering how little we know of them, but that's what I've put together when I think she's twisted and cruel.

Spoiler for Length:

Thunder Book 2010-12-20 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 3399445)
That's what despicable persons do. Rather than preventing others from falling in the same despair you fell in, you try to make them suffer as much as you do. That's selfish... and evil...

While it is selfish, I wouldn't say it's necessarily evil.

When people tend to be harmed in some significant way (Let's use rape as an example), they intend to inflict that pain on others to get that sense of whatever was taken from them back. Rape victims have a high tend tendency to become rapists themselves because they can become so psychologically tormented and confused that they just don't think straightly anymore and feel the need to do these things to people.

It's like the whole "understanding the heart" thing. Knowing why people psychologically feel the need to resort to these things is vastly important. It isn't because people are necessarily evil. It's just sad and pitiable of them. That's why support groups and therapy exist.

TehChron 2010-12-20 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Book (Post 3399589)
While it is selfish, I wouldn't say it's necessarily evil.

When people tend to be harmed in some significant way (Let's use rape as an example), they intend to inflict that pain on others to get that sense of whatever was taken from them back. Rape victims have a high tend tendency to become rapists themselves because they can become so psychologically tormented and confused that they just don't think straightly anymore and feel the need to do these things to people.

It's like the whole "understanding the heart" thing. Knowing why people psychologically feel the need to resort to these things is vastly important. It isn't because people are necessarily evil. It's just sad and pitiable of them. That's why support groups and therapy exist.

No offense meant to you personally, but the above sounds like a load of bullshit.

When making an outrageous claim like that, I hope you have some extensive, reliable data to back you up. It's a horrible analogy to make, and deeply offensive to victims and their sympathizers.

Thunder Book 2010-12-20 03:21

It's what was taught to us in high school, and is to my knowledge generally accepted. I don't have the specific data on hand right now though.

And to be honest I don't care if people are offended because I said that people don't baselessly do awful things. I'm not saying rape is good or whatever, nor am I trying to downplay how bad these things can hurt people. I'm saying I think that it's sad when people who are victims of crimes feel the need to start committing these same acts.

Kirroha 2010-12-20 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 3399445)
That's what despicable persons do. Rather than preventing others from falling in the same despair you fell in, you try to make them suffer as much as you do. That's selfish... and evil...

I think of Kasumi.


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