I'd note that my religious text notes that a fool will always hold he is cleverer than the wise, and the best way to deal with fools is to answer them in such a way that their ignorance and foolishness becomes apparent.
I'd also add that there is a difference between quoting an opinion in support of your argument, and simply blindly regurgitating the word of your peers. The benefits of studying law in a nation that practices the adversarial system. Quote:
Whereas I have read the books several times, and I am a lot better at arguing my case than he is, being that I've actually thought this through, and came to this conclusion by my self. |
There was one Stu-ish moment in Kirito's life, though.
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You guys are basing your idea that because Kirito is not perfect, he's not a Gary Stu. The Mary sue concept is not just simple as you guys make it out to be, and you seems to be also basing them on popular misconception. Often harcore 'edgy' character or 'gangster' characters can just as easily be qualified. As I said before people conveniently ignored that a Gary Stu's role and abilities have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree. Pretty much All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault and are typical mary sueish melodramatic 'tragedy'. http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Mary_Sue http://www.answers.com/topic/mary-sue-1 http://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Stu http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue |
Let's make this clear: We absolutely do not see how his role or his abilities 'have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree'. Not in a Light Novel. It's called LIGHT for a reason. We totally understand that a REAL novel would have the protagonists as a normal man/woman doing normal things and does not particularly affect the world and proves that a man's power can only go so far, but this is for god's sake a LIGHT novel. From Japan. Exactly what the heck are you expecting, Game of Thrones kind of story?
This sentence is especially wrong even if I try to look at it objectively. 'All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault'? When you spill your milk as a kid it's both your fault for being young and your mother's fault for not taking better care of you. When you fight with your friends it's both your faults for duking it out despite better options. More due to 'other people's fault'? Every time something happens, EVERYTHING is a reason. That's an absolutely stupid statement to use to base your arguments. |
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If you understand the term so well, I don't see why you simply couldn't explain, in detail, what the term means, and show how Kirito is one instead of throwing the definitions and a baseless statement or two at us. Cancerous grip? Harms it to a huge degree? Your words mean nothing without examples/evidence. And before you say "neither do yours!" I'd like to point out that I don't know what this "cancerous grip" that has harmed the story "to a huge degree" is. The only time you presented examples, they weren't even yours, not to mention the fact that were proven invalid. As you've evidently not read the novels, your argument is completely and utterly laughable. Quote:
A "real" novel? SAO is fantasy mixed with some sci-fi; the whole idea is that it's not supposed to be real. There's no such thing a "real" novel; it all depends on the genre (i.e. realism if you want to read about normal people doing normal things). |
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So yeah. I don't see SAO as a conventional Light Novel - it's head and shoulders over the vast majority of it's compatriots. Not to mention that Light Novel cliches are really a very recent phenomena, and thankfully, SAO begun before that trend rotted stories published in that format. Seriously. SAO could easily be published as a near-future Sci-Fi novel - especially the best of it's later volumes, and it won't look out of place. |
You know I really don't care if Kirito is considered a Gary Stu or whatever.
I love it when my characters using overwhelming force, hot-blood, guts, and power of will to curb stomp the enemy. Not like monster of the week star driver like curb stomp thats a whole different animal altogether. I'm talking actually making the enemy feel the pain of having someone just better then them stomping a mud hole in their rear. In other words Personally I really don't care much either way as long as the story is kept entertaining and yes I most people like to see the main character actually work for his or her victory winning impossible odds not with just overwhelming force alone. After all if you see them stomp every single enemy everytime it starts to get old for some however once in awhile it feels good to immerse yourself in fiction for noting more then a good time. |
I hate to rain on your parade, guys, but generally Light Novels are termed that way because they use simplified characters in their printing, instead of the more complicated shit.
That said, the usual Light Novel demographic roughly corresponds to what in America would be the Young Adult market. When was the last time you saw something like SAO in the YA section? As far as I can recall, never. Quote:
Oh wait, this wasn't even his idea to begin with - he's just regurgitating (i.e. eating his own vomit before vomiting out again) the ideas of someone else! So yeah, I think I win. But then, it was an unfair debate to begin with - after all, I did study law, taking the hardest external degree programme in the Commonwealth. Quote:
Frankly, I don't see this happening in Sword Art Online. But then again, I wouldn't expect you to be aware of this, given that you've chosen to launch your trolling based on the opinion of someone else, which you are just regurgitating*, and you have not even read the books in question. Which I assume is frustrating you to no end, as I keep asking you to provide examples to argue your case, at which point you resort to sweeping statements. That's truly the mark of someone who didn't study his source material. *Regurgitating: technical term for what cows do, which is eating grass, vomiting it up, and eating the said vomit. Process repeats three times for another three stomachs, until the 4x regurgitated grass vomit hits the intestines. Quote:
You have zero credibility in this case. Go and read. Then redo your points with your examples. And then, maybe then, will you be taken seriously. Wait, you can't. You've shown zero ability to think and debate point by point. All you can do is make sweeping, generalized statements, because you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Quote:
I'll sum up his main point, which is something you keep willfully ignoring: Kirito, nor other characters in Sword Art Online, can NOT correctly be termed as Mary Sues, because they are organic to that verse. They are the main characters of that verse. Therefore, the term Mary Sue cannot apply, as it is used to refer to fanfiction author created characters with undesirable traits. And Kirito's mistakes being due to other people? Really. Well then, where's your evidence? Show your examples to back up your arguments. Where is the cancerous grip on the story? He's telling his own story. Of course it will follow him! And again, you're not giving your examples, but just making sweeping, broad statements. Contrast the following analogies: Scenario: Plaintiff ship owner suing defendant dock owner as dock is too shallow to moor ship, and ship is damaged. Randomzx: "Docks should be deep enough!" (Sweeping statement) Wild Goose: "Based on the Officious Bystander Rule, as laid down in the case of The Moorcock, it is submitted that there was an implied term in the contract that the defendants' dock would be deep enough to allow the plaintiff's vessel to be moored without damage." (Point and quoted example to support.) But at the end of the day, what this really serves to accomplish is nothing of import. Without a strong argument, you cannot convince us, yet you cannot argue that which you do not know. You who know not what you speak of, but in your conceit attempt to lord your ignorance over others, brushing aside debate and reasoned arguments for childish bluster. You are as a storm in a teacup, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Quote:
That said, often times the Braves did have to work hard for their wins. But when they pulled it off, awesomeness ensued. Quote:
Bottomline: If you're entertained and having fun, then it's forgivable. That said, IMO Kirito isn't a Sue, based on above posts. |
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A Mary Sue is not required to be flawless, see for example http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Drizzt_do%27Urden Quote:
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Seriously, in most of the forums and discussion I heard, its a general consensus that Kirito is a Gary Stu. Its your fanboy vision and tendency to hold onto minor justifying details that doesn't allow you to see Kirito that way. |
Kirito is overpowered though, in my opinion, having read through Mother Rosario. He is the most powerful player in virtual reality. There was no one better than him in SAO except for the person who created SAO, Kayaba. And in Mother Rosario, Kirito wasn't dual wielding, so he wasn't going full out. Randomzx also gives a couple of good examples in GGO that made me pause.
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I'm pretty sure that Kirito decided not to stop his teammates from opening the chest despite knowing the risk, because he was afraid that his Beater identity will be revealed and hated by everyone.
And Rennir, you did not read Mother Rosario thoroughly enough. Spoiler for Mother Rosario spoiler:
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Double standards:
If we get the cookie cutter harem protags, they're insulted and belittled. On the other hand, make someone competent/strong and you get complaints that he's way too good for the story. Here's an example: Ezio Auditore da Firenze of the Assassins Creed II fame. Not only does he routinely do the impossible, what with assassinating high value targets and liberating cities practically on his own when he shows up, but he also happens to be best buds with people like Leonardo da Vinci or Machiavelli. In other words, he seems perfect. Rare will you find a person bitching or moaning about him simply cause he fills the purpose of making the medium interesting. If Kirito fails that job, then he's definitely on his way to being a sue. If he doesn't, then it's a good sign he's a good character. |
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I read the Chinese ones only, sorry.
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he even admits the story suffers because of imbalanced focus in his notes. Quote:
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Well Randomzx you've already made it pretty clear you're not into the novel that much. What else is there to prove? Thing is fans will be fans and haters will be haters. Let's just chalk this up to differences of point of view and tastes and get on w/ it. If you're not happy w/ the series in general then drop it. No need to have lengthy arguments w/ fans who having been immersed in the series found it enjoyable and would not likely change their minds.
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Here I go again. That said, I have practically zero expectation that I'm going to get a reply.
*Edit: Spoilering the bulk of the replies. *shrug* Not that it will do much good, since the mods tell me spoilers are spoilers, but this is the only way to address Randomzx. Quote:
You forget that being a Mary Sue is an instant I Win button, which does not happen for Kirito, who goes through a lot of shit and has to work to get his happy ending. Spoiler for Significant Novel Details:
The last statements Randomzx has made do not contain spoilers, and I feel there's a certain benefit to addressing them publicly. Quote:
There's a fine line between quoting an agreeing opinion, and simply blindly following the crowd. Quote:
The fact that you must resort to this should be evident enough that your position cannot hold. One last thought before I go: The yardstick that you use? Apply it to any one of the Avengers in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and you'd get a whole team of Sues. Yet The Avengers was regarded as one of the most entertaining films of this year. Think about that. |
Should probably just stop feeding the troll goose, let it die a hungry death :P
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