Schwarzesmarken - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll
 

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Oh Pham...

http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spi...91265_full.jpg

Taking the fall for the team. Still I have to say, Lise has gone crazy now. I don't think there's anything worth saving about her.

I think the term creepy fits her more than crazy at this stage. Her hallucination was just a huge WTF.

I'd say she was crazy from the start, broken by the Stasi who brainwashed her into thinking that everything she did was for her brother.

Actually that's wrong.



As for the episode, it was rushed as fu** to the point all the intentions behind Lise, beatrix and Katia were deleted from the anime. Walter and Sylwia raped, Pham getting beated until she can't even stand up just to finish with her being killed and Lise acting like a crazy bitch, those were the good parts of the episode. Also there is something changed, Lise was never taken by Axman, he just tortured her and send his squad to rape her.

Now we're going to see one of the best scenes in the LN but I have my doubts about how the studio is going to adapt that part.

Poor Pham....she was too good for that kind ending....

No. The Stasi made her into a twisted crazy ever since they caught her - Lise, too, was a victim to the Stasi. Axmann and his goons used her brother to torment her as her weakness, forced her to do evil deeds just to have her beloved brother to be spared - be it being a "swallow" sl@t and a sex slave. *Oh god why... how could they do those to me?! Why Eli-chi?! They've defiled my vision on her! T_T* (Though it's kinda funny how many people condemns for her death don't acknowledge this)

Still, her love for Theo was real. But the Stasi twisted her into a real crazy yandere just as what we're looking at right now. But it was a good thing that she didn't told her onii-chan about her being a sl@t thing while making love until now. At least Lise wouldn't die a virgin, even if she's been defiled by Stasi for ages. :p

But guess what?


And don't forget - it was Axmann who was responsible for all of those, including Theo's misery. And Axmann is the biggest @sshole in this series - this is a fact.

Pham... Oh, Pham... I know that racist did something unforgivable, but still... I feel pity on her for what she has been through...

On the side note, looks like Slywia shown her soft side in front of Walther - her husbando. :p

PS: Make sure you give Anett a "comfort", Theo boy... ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I hate when characters are beyond saving when they are victims themselves. Lise is still one of my fav girls and it'd be great if there was a happy end for her but with Pham mince meated by her I guess the best thing that could happen to Lise now is that she will be killed by Theo's hands. Also I'm glad that Gretel survived.

Pham was too good and pure for that world.

I feel bad for Lise, but she honestly seems like she's too far gone now. Sure she's messed up in the head, but the Stasi were the ones that broke her. Even if they take her away from them, I doubt they can ever truly heal her and save her from, well herself at this point.

I don't think it's possible for anyone to save this.

Could have banged Pham before she's off to the meat grinder. :eyespin:

But yeah, it would be the case. It's the only way to put her out of her misery.

"I'm supposed to be your woman, onii-chan! But you sell me out for that woman?! Am I not good enough? Why... Why you do this to me? I did everything just for you... But..."

"I HATE YOU, ONII-CHAN!!!"

Welp, harem route epic failed

Same here. Lise could hardly give a damn about the Stasi or the Fatherland - it's hard to look past one's self and your close ones when going through all that. Seems like a quick death is the go-to option now.

One thing is clear though, she's really spiced up the show and is one of the most interesting characters in it :p I couldn't imagine Schwarzesmarken without her.

Seriously? And the anime skipped out on that?... At what point in the VN was that?

In the end it's just not good. If they don't try to save Lise then it's denying Pham's last moments. Though the fact that she killed Pham makes it hard to see if there is even a possibility of getting through to her. Just lose/lose here.

Lise really has become a wreck. Without a doubt a prime example of the kind of victim the Stasi creates. Though at the same time...victim or not, her actions are horrific on their own.

Definitely makes the show more entertaining, that's for sure. Hard to see her surviving though. She's just done too much for really anyone to say "oh yeah, let's risk our lives to save Lise!"

Huh he did? How come i didn't see that scene in the VN. >__>

It was on the LN, actually.

I see. Thanks for the info then.

I feel bad for Lise and Pham. :sad:

Relieved to see the more key harsher aspects of this kind of show weren't brushed over. I was wondering whether the reaction to Lise revealing what she'd done and what led up to it would invoke in people. On Reddit, they're certainly reacting on a more primal level and not taking the full story or not understanding the full picture. Somewhat understandable, I guess, but they've definitely not understood everything that led up to this.

Myself, I feel sympathy for Lise to a point. She was sent into an unimaginable hell by Axmann and being made into a sex slave just to survive is a pretty damn low point. At that point, sympathy exists. But when she then accepted killing innocents as a means to get to Theodor, that's when sympathy gives in to a solemn acceptance. At that point, Lise is effectively unable to be saved. She sees things in two ways - the Stasi and Theodor. Anything else gets in the way. To choose death over committing an atrocity clearly seems the moral thing to do - but when you put someone in that position, the choice is a very, very hard one to make and many wouldn't be willing to.

The idea that Pham was trying to treat her as a person worthy of empathy isn't possible for her anymore. The idea that Irisdina and Katia can defy what she was forced to cave into combined with Theodor pledging allegiance to their cause is the straw that broke the camel's back. The only thing Lise can comprehend within her final vestiges of sanity at this point is that Theodor is her only source of salvation - a fact Axmann has always been able to coerce Lise with. If anyone gets in the way of her only hope, they have to pay. A rational person wouldn't think that but Lise's rationale and morality have been sent into oblivion by the Stasi.

All that said, Pham - may your kind soul be in a better place. You were better than this hellhole of a place these people are stuck in. You deserved better.

My anger isn't greatest towards Lise, to be honest. I'm split between Axmann and Theodor as for who I'm truly angry with. Axmann has played people for fools yet again. The need for mechs is understandable, but surely they know Axmann will leave them to burn/be defiled like he does with everyone. There'd better be one heck of a reckoning coming his way, because damn, for what he's done to everyone, especially Lise - that bastard deserves it. But I'll admit he is one damn effective villain.

As for Theodor....seriously....do the right thing for once! Use some common sense and stop letting things escalate. But moreso, he wasn't anything of a (step)brother at all. Any real brother would have been more concerned/mindful of what could have happened to Lise in the hands of the Stasi over that much time. But heck, you're just glad she's alive but constantly mulling over the possibility of her being a spy. If you bothered to reach out to her at all before Axmann stirred the nest up in Episode 6, maybe you could have drawn it out of her. But no....you go and do the worst thing by sleeping with her and send the worst signals you possibly could. What the heck did he think Lise would do after he has sex with her then outright says 'Irisdina and nothing else.' When Lise turns....he acts like an empty husk. When Lise loses the plot and kills Pham...he does nothing. Instead of ending it, he just runs and cries after the fact. Sure, familial ties would cause great emotional conflict, but you said it yourself, Theodor. The Lise that was your sister is gone. But you didn't have the balls to put an end to her misery. If anything, everyone has perhaps been too soft on Theodor. Perhaps this is the thing that will haunt him forever and finally get him into shape. Because without the women of the 666th to be his backbone, he is so damn milquetoast thus far....

All of this said, Lise is a necessary edge for this title. I can't imagine Schwarzesmarken being much of anything without her. Sure, Irisdina is the admirable, self-sacrificing leader while Gretel is the brains and Katia is the spirit. But Lise represents what the uglier side of life and humanity can do to even the most innocent of people. She invokes some of the most, if not the most, powerful emotions. The fact that she has been corrupted and that no one can do anything about it is the thing that one can't forget. You want her to pay for what she has done yet you pity her because she was doomed from the moment the Stasi caught her.

But I'm not getting vicarious kicks from her at all and I would never want to. Lise exists to be a source of conflict and a reminder of what war and the vile part of humanity can do to other humans + warp them into. Lise is the necessary element to give that extra burning desire to see the 666th succeed/be invested in the rest of the journey because while the women in the 666th give decent reasons to be invested, Theodor sure as hell doesn't give any good reasons.

I would like to think before all is said and done that Lise gets a chance to show she isn't truly evil and that whatever damnation is hopefully coming Axmann's way, that Lise gets to give it to him and allow some of the 666th to survive.

But given the reaction to this episode here and across other places online, it's clear what a heck of an impact Lise has made on Schwarzesmarken. Other characters like Katia will probably go on to achieve something for the greater good. But to have someone who never had a chance to start losing it - that really does cause such a memorable impact, even if it was in such a dark way. It is much harder to make a character that ends up not being the likeable one but the despised one to cause such a reaction with an effect that will remain long after the show is finished.


I'm not forgetting that episode for a long while....damn....I have to hand it to the director. I know not everyone approves of what he cuts out from the source material, but he really does keep things at a good pace and how he re-arranged certain moments to have a bigger impact/be in a more meaningful sequence has turned out for the better most of the time. 12 episodes isn't much time to cover the core of this but he's done well.

This is exactly what I've been implying. You are not saying anything that I didn't mean. ;)

A surprisingly refreshing post. For once not those constant complaints about butchering/cuts.