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Old 2004-04-07, 01:23   Link #14
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
Exclamation WARNING: Long Post Ahead! Apologies in advance...

Originally Posted by Shad da Von
As I said above I think Shiori truly cared for Sei and saw that their relationship was becoming harmful not only to Sei but also to herself.
I believe that Shiori truly loved Sei. But I think laurore31 is also correct in saying that Shiori didn't love Sei the way Sei loved her. I see Sei's love as an obsessive, all consuming love that would never have lasted. I know that it's the type of love that tends to get glorified, but I see it as something that's rather brittle and fragile. By putting Shiori on a pedestal in her own mind, Sei was just setting Shiori up for a fall sooner or later.

Also I don't believe Sei really knew Shiori as a person, eg when Sei was totally caught off guard by Youko's revelation about Shiori. I get the sense that she loved Shiori more as an ideal and not as a person.


In my opinion, one prerequisite (amongst many) for a successful relationship is knowledge, both self-knowledge and knowledge about your partner. What I mean is that people need to know who they are and what they want in life, and how that fits in with their partner's personality and goals if a relationship is to work out. Often couples break up because they discover down the track that they have very different and incompatible goals in life.

Being in love and having a partner doesn't magically make your own problems go away. You still need to figure out how to deal with them yourself, albeit with some help sometimes. Each person in the pair are still individuals who need to learn how to be strong as people by themselves. Even in a relationship, one needs to live for themselves first and foremost. There'll be times when this is not the case, but for the most part, I think that it should be. Living for someone else all the time will just make you miserable and bitter.

*** END RANT ***

As for how all this relates to Sei and Shiori, Sei made the mistake of assuming that Shiori will give up her life goals for Sei. Also Sei tried to use Shiori to solve her personal problems without actually looking at her own underlying issues. If the only thing that Sei learnt from the whole Shiori incident was that she needs to start living for herself, then that would've been a valuable lesson.

On a more shallow note, I'm glad she learnt this lesson since that's why we get treated to some of Sei's more outrageous antics.

Originally Posted by laurore31
For me, a love between two girls is an exclusive feeling. Sei can't deal with God... Shiori can't exclusivly love Sei and God. i think...
I'm not sure that I agree that romantic love between two people is *always* an exclusive feeling, but I do agree that Shiori can't exclusively love both God and Sei. I don't see it so much as a matter of her choosing God over Sei, but rather her choosing to follow her own heart and path in life, rather than Sei's.

People choosing to live for someone else's goals often end up very bitter about the whole situation. I wouldn't have wanted to see Shiori ended up hating Sei.

Originally Posted by Shad da Von
I love all the members of the White Rose family (I consider Shizuka an honorary member of the family), but Sei is my favourite. I can't really explain it well, but the personalities and flaws in the people of that family really appeal to my sense of aesthetics.
I find this rather interesting could I persuade you to try elaborating more?
I don't know about the yellow rose family, but members of the white & red rose family both have certain stylistic characteristics that makes them distinct. For example, Sachiko/Youko are both outwardly dignified, reserved and elegant people in the "ojou-sama" mould. (Though their actual personalities are very different; Youko is a perceptive, self-assured and wise leader whilst Sachiko just looks self-assured but is really quite insecure.) Admittedly Yumi is a notable exception, but Yumi is an anomaly to the whole Yamayurikai system.

In the same way, the white rose family mambers (I'm including Shizuka here) also follow a certain archetype, but their similarities are based more on personality traits than appearance. Here's a list of some characteristics I think they have in common:
  • "Porcupines" dilemma. They're people with deep feelings who long to be understood, but create distance in various ways to avoid emotional pain.
  • Perceptive. Eg. Sei noticed Yumi's attraction long before Sachiko did (ep 2), Shimako figured out that Yumi & Sachiko would be good for each other (ep 2), Shizuka had Shimako figured out in ep 13 and also spotted Yumi even if Yumi doesn't remember her (ep 6).
  • They're loners or see themselves as outsiders. Eg. Sei in ep 11, Shimako choosing to eat lunch outside away from others (ep 2), Shizuka as an outsider to the Yamayurikai in Rosa Canina.
  • Good sense of irony/humour. Eg. Sei's "two birds with one stone soeur pair", Shimako putting up a card she was supposed to "hide" on a public bulletin board.
  • Strong sense of personal free will. Eg. Sei & Shimako in Rosa Canina.
  • Direct and outspoken when necessary. Eg. Shimako speaking up for Yumi (ep 1), Shizuka to Shimako (ep 6, 12, 13)
  • Thoughtful & introspective. Eg. Sei (ep 10, 11, 13), Shimako & Shizuka (ep 13)

Originally Posted by Shad da Von
I agree but I also believe this topic can be used as an argument against the popular belief that this series is primarily a yuri. I think that the emphises on the distinct differance between the relationship of Shiori and Sei (I believe to be more yuri content) and that of the soeurs' relationships creates a sense that the soeurs' relationship are comparible to a more sisterhood relation.
I think the series (and perhaps the novel) is deliberately ambiguous on this point, so readers and viewers can have different but equally valid points of view depending on what scenes they're referring to and how they interpret those scenes. Although I see a number of the Yamayurikai pairings as strictly soeur relations, the Yumi/Sachiko (ep 2, 3, 8), Rei/Yoshino (ep 5 - I honestly thought for a second that they were about to kiss, 8, 13) and even the Sei/Shimako (ep 8, 9, 13) pairings all have one or more ambiguous scenes that suggest one or both of the soeurs may having deeper feelings.
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