[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by Urei

If you mean - 1 x small-bore rear anti-aircraft beam gun (mounted center dorsal section in Fighter/GERWALK mode, becomes head turret in Battroid mode) Then both YF-19 and VF-19 has it. Their Standard armament is identical. The only real difference is what I listed below. Aside from that small feature VF-19 is leap improvement.


YF-19

2 x Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes) featuring air-to-air/air-to-ground general-purpose micro-missile pallets, Bifors BMM-24 all-regime high-maneuverability micro-missile cluster, OR 2 x [4 x] B-19A YF-19-exclusive internal weapons pallets.
4 x chaff dispensers (mounted aft)

VF-19F

# 2 x internal Little Rock launch systems featuring 24 x high maneuverability micro-missiles OR 6 x medium-range high maneuverability missiles each (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes); pallet can be alternately equipped with other weapon packs.

In other words aside from having additional 4x chaff's and an exclusive internal weapon pallets it does not posses much more firepower. Especially that the VF-19 pallets can be left on the plane while having other Packs equipped.

As I said before, the Super pack was the main thing the production had over the one that the prototype had (which, IIRC, was just a booster pack along the lines of the one the VF-25S used). Of course, the lightening of the airframe probably (along with the change of vernier thruster to the 7R versus the 6H) may have helped goost the maximum speed in space up some. But as for the prototype, I recall the micromissile packs getting a lot of use by Isamu.

Originally Posted by Urei

Well, VF-17 is larger, heavier and slower. It's a unit that was used as a fighting force because it was indeed more useful then Thunderbolt. Still, it had a lot of limitation which was the reason why Project Supernova fired up. It just never met the requirements that the UN Spacey had for a next gen fighter. VF-19 covered that area later on. Simply put

And, as I said earlier, it wasn't exactly a second-line fighter; it was superseded by the VF-19 and VF-22 as an aerospace superiority fighter as both of them could pull more G's and were faster craft (which is important for intercepting the enemy as well as in pursuit), but it was still 'elite' until better planes showed up. The VF-11 was the 'standard' fighter for many Macross fleets as of 2045 from what we could see with the VF-4 having gone to second-line status as an older fighter.

If the 'elite' of Diamond Force were using it, it definitely wasn't second-line; it was an elite grunt plane, but not an ace's fighter... nor was it as demanding of the pilot as the better planes were.

Originally Posted by Urei

I always wondered about those g. limits in VF-22. It's a lot heavier then VF-19F has considerably less thrust force and thus a much weaker TtW ratio. It can withstand more G.Force while turning or performing maneuvers but with those specs it still falls behind in dogfight. Besides, this additional mass is a major drawback when performing said maneuvers. I say this G.Limit is to withstand a 1 ton mass increase of an empty plane + some armament bonuses simply.

I never saw VF-22 as a better unit then VF-19. It's different but it's hard to say which one is better suited for you, with those specs.

The G-limits are probably more due to the strength of the frame as well as any limiters programmed into the computers; basically if it exceeds those, it's likely to either a) kill the pilot, or b) tear the plane apart. Remembering that the YF-21 was superior on paper to the YF-19, and this is the version that dumped the flexible wing and mind-controlled systems, it still only has a ton extra mass compared to the VF-21 (9.5 tons versus 8.5 tons) and the YF-21 had comparable thrust to the upgraded YF-19... which for the Roice-FF 2450B engines was 65200 per engine, which puts it about 10000kg per engine as far as output goes on the 2500F's the VF-19 uses.

I'd have to say the advantages that the VF-22 enjoys over the VF-19 are the better armament loadout (three energy cannons to the two lasers on the VF-19, and 'many' micromissiles which seem to have been borrowed from the Zentradi Queadlunn-Rau design it was based on (although I doubt it packs the full 126 missiles that did). The main issue with the VF-19 was that it was so demanding of the pilot that a lesser pilot whose skills weren't up to the task would likely kill himself flying it if not crash the plane... as everyone up to Isamu Dyson did in Plus. And if it can pull tighter turns to get an angle on the enemy, the speed it moves with is less of an issue than if it can line up a shot on the target.

Originally Posted by Urei

But it is it's performance. It has 2x the thrust of VF-19 and around 2.5x the thrust of VF-22 while having less mass then VF-19 and the Sumo VF-22. In addition all of those specs are boosted by it's super FAST Pack to such an extent that it produces so much g.force that it's almost irrational. There were some calculations on another board that with super FAST pack the g. forces produced go well over 90. An assumption based on the comparison between the power of a VF-1 and it's FAST pack power.

If you gain additional verniers, armor, and weapons with a Full Armor pack and still have 2x the thrust of VF-19 then I can't possibly imagine how long would a 19 last against such an oponent.

VF-25 is indeed tuned with the technology and interface the VF-19/22 lacks. It's only natural that it's an improvement as the world goes on with it's Fighter development. Besides I don't know what kind of maniac would think that ne next line fighters would be less pilot friendly with the technology progress. It probably is easier to handle then Vf-19 but it most certainly ouperforms it as well as 22 in every aspect.

It's not its overwhelming performance which makes it special (even if the technological leap required to allow it to make such gains in thrust-to-weight ratio and maneuverability are), but its ability to fulfill any role required of it just by switching a few pieces of equipment out. It basically, by itself, has the ability to replace almost every specialized plane in the NUNS inventory... while being easy enough to handle that you don't have to be Max Jenius, Isamu Dyson, Guld Bowman, or Basara Nekki to fly it and use it well, or even to avoid killing yourself the way the top-performing fighters of Macross Plus and Macross 7 did.

The problem with the VF-19 and VF-22 wasn't just cost, but that if a less-skilled pilot flew those planes, he or she would either crash and burn as they couldn't cope with the plane's sensitivity due to slower reflexes or a less-developed flying sense, or would be unable to really take advantage of the extra speed and maneuverability to fly better than they would in a VF-11 The VF-171's ability to act in a multimission capability with 'okay' performance combined with its price is what makes it so useful the the NUNS now, as well as being forgiving enough as a platform that a minor mistake or not being quite as fast on the reflex tests as Max Jenius wouldn't mean your career would end in a fireball on a flight deck. The VF-25, by not being so 'fine-tuned' as those other planes despite having the ability to fly faster than either of them, means that you don't have to be a skilled ace who has hundreds of hours in the cockpit to successfully use one in a dogfight... but if you are an ace, the extra performance means you can take advantage of the plane's full potential. Look at how Ozma was handling his plane in episode 7; despite having only the performance of a 'normal' VF-25 he was able to effectively fly rings around Alto who was technically his better in terms of speed and maneuverability. But at the same time, the fighter could compensate for his relative lack of talent to make him effective without being so 'high-strung' that a second's inattention would cause him to lose control.

And by being able to dogfight, do attack fighter duty, and by being able to refit within a few minutes due to extremely modular construction would be able to replace the VF-171's, VF-19's, and VF-14's along with any other 'specialty' craft the NUNS has... and in doing so simplify the logistics chain a lot, as they could use the same parts for most of their planes, and also make planning missions somewhat easier as they wouldn't have to necessarily send in a carrier that had room for all the different plane types into an operation; just keep a smaller ship with the packs handy and refit squadrons as needed.

It's versatile in much the same way the VF-1 was versatile, while improving performance in almost every area... and by adding the right pack, it becomes a dominating (as well as cost-effective) platform.