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Old 2009-10-09, 11:20   Link #2076
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
A fighter in cloth with a rapier can win against a fighter in plate with an axe by virtue of being able to strike more quickly.
What you're talking about isn't melee fighting. It's stealth assault on one particular target, or hit-and-run on one particular target.

Melee fighting involves group fighting: It's not one-on-one with no other combat participants around.

From Wiki:

Melee... generally refers to disorganized close combat involving a group of fighters. A melee ensues when groups become locked together in combat with no regard to group tactics or fighting as an organized unit; each participant fights as an individual.

Bold emphasis mine.

This is why it's important for a good melee fighter to have good defense. Because in the event of group warfare where each participant fights as an individual, the likelihood of not getting hit at all is exceedingly slim (i.e. somebody on the other side that you're not fighting directly with could sneak attack you at any time).

Sure, in one-on-one combat with out other participants around, you can win a fight with out taking a single hit on the basis of speed advantage alone... but this is much more difficult to achieve in melee warfare.

And, interestingly enough... Fate had no choice but to use defensive acumen (i.e. blocking) against her opponents when she went into combat inside the cradle. The reason being that she was outnumbered 3-to-1, and hence dodging everything would quite possibly be beyond even her.

However, Fate won that fight, ultimately defeating all of her opponents here, demonstrating that she's a good melee fighter with good defense.


Yes you can.
No, you can't. A melee fighter needs good defense unless they have an unreal speed/agility advantage (I'm thinking of Hecate from Shakugan no Shana here).

And yet, I have walked around winning fights without even taking a single hit at all. Curious, wouldn't you say?
Not if it's one-on-one, no.

Yes she did stop dodging. She stopped dodging the moment Nanoha began her Divine Buster, at that point Fate was not yet in a bind. What Fate did was try to block it, because Nanoha had blocked her attack and she felt she had to do the same.
IIRC, Fate tried to counter that blast with one of her own, and her blast was disintegrated entirely by it. Then, in clear visible shock, she raised a shield. I'm not sure if dodging was an option at the point of shock here. Nanoha's blast had a significant thickness to it.

So... it's very debatable if she consciously chose to stop dodging or not, Keroko.

Source please.
Nanoha's divine buster is obviously more powerful than Vita's most basic physical attacks. Vita herself was stunned by the potency of the blast, and was knocked backwards by it; even enraged by it.

Very scarcely.
No, not very scarcely. Fate uses Bardiche as a defensive weapon frequently.

And often right before she loses.
No, not often right before she loses.

No we can't.
Yes we can, Keroko.

That's where the main flaw in saying 'feats trumph all' set in.
There's no flaw whatsoever in saying 'feats triumph all'. This is the approach that serious fighting boards take; fighting boards that pit fictional characters against one another in combat.

They've been doing this for decades, and with wide consensus agreement.

Have you ever heard of Comic Book Rumbles?

We don't know how powerful Vivio's attack was, or how strong Nanoha's shields are. Right now all we can do is guess, which is what you are doing. Guess. However guesses are not facts.
Feats provide a good basis for educated estimations. Appraisals are frequently completely wrong or dishonest.

Feats trump appraisals. Always.

In other words: It's more powerful, which is then supported by the booklets placing it far beyond the norm.
Vivio's punching ability is more powerful than Nanoha's shields, yes.

Look, one reason why you don't put much credence in appraisals is because of things like exaggerations and hyperbole. This is very common through out fiction; creators amping up the assessment of the Big Bad (or whatever) beyond what feats demonstrate.

In the case of Vivio, she clearly wasn't all that awesome, or she would have curbstomped Nanoha.

These are booklets which discuss the casts attacks and call most of Nanoha's move 'powerful.' Frightening in those booklets means frightening to the cast.
Nanoha didn't seem very frightened to me, during her fight with Vivio.

I'm well aware. That's why I said could. Dialog can be used to explain differences in power, which is why characters speaking about their powers is very important.
Perhaps, but it's not as important as feats. Feats are concrete evidence right in front of your eyes. The picture tells the story. The picture doesn't exaggerate, or use hyperbole, or engage in bragging or insulting, or lie. Claims about powers are obviously very open to all of the above, and hence less trustworthy.

And subjective. Let's take Signum's attack on Fate in A's, the rapid movement one. Say I call it a teleportation, and you a fast movement spell. Which of us is right? At this point, the feat itself proves nothing.
Wrong, Keroko.

Totally wrong. I can't believe that you're making such an awful argument.

The feat itself proves that Signum can move very rapidly from Point A to Point B. The means used to achieve this is secondary to the objective fact, proved by the feat, that she can move rapidly from Point A to Point B.

Vita's words.
So Vita is above boasting? Or trying to infuse herself with greater self-confidence?

Breaking things is hers and Graff Eisen's specialty. Of course there's also supporting that Graff Eisen's design, which just screams "built for breaking" as well as booklets describing Vita's attacks as barrier breakers.
This proves absolutely nothing as far as Vita/Signum comparisons are concerned.

I am talking post-cartridge upgrade. Fate couldn't defend against Signum's blows to the point where she had to abandon blocking completely because it was fighting a losing battle.
And Nanoha couldn't defend against Vita and Vivio's blows.

Not at all. I am hardly twisting events to suit my needs.
Keroko... it is obviously circular reasoning to argue that "Fate has crappy defense. Hence, Fate proves that a good melee fighter can have crappy defense. Thus, saying that Fate being a good melee fighter means that she should have good defense is wrong" in a debate centering around whether or not Fate has crappy defense.

Again, proof of this?
The very fact that she argued that Fate couldn't take a signal hit from her is telling, don't you think? Why would you want to let your opponent in on a weakness that they have?

On the other hand, it makes sense to try to unnerve your opponent by having them underestimate their chances to win the battle.

I am not asking for explanations why it would be a valid tactics, I am calling for proof of them doing so. Without proof, this claim is quite simply false.
The fact that it makes for valid tactics means that it is a plausible explanation for why Fate is saying what she's saying there, Keroko. Given that it is a plausible explanation that fits the shown feats, it's far more valuable than appraisals taken purely at face value.

So Nanoha's regular attack is stronger than Fate's most powerful attack?
Divine Buster wasn't Nanoha's "regular" attack at the time. It only became that after Nanoha introduced the Starlite Breaker... later on in the fight against Fate. Fate didn't see that coming. She was startled that Nanoha had something greater than the Divine Buster.

I mean, Nanoha came out of that Phalanx Shift without a scratch on her body, and while in a bind no less! Meanwhile, Fate Barrier Jacket got torn to shreds by Nanoha's Divine Buster. This is not just a case of Nanoha having superior firepower (which she does) but also a case of her having superior defense.
I disagree. Superior firepower explains everything, in my opinion.

Yes, and she would not have lost that battle if she -here it comes- would have continued dodging instead of blocking.
I don't know if she had the choice to dodge at that juncture. The blast was coming fast, and had disintegrated Fate's own counter blast, much to Fate's shock.

Try looking at it from an RPG style setting. Signum is a fighter, Fate is a rogue. Signum has strong armor to weather the blows that come her way, while Fate relies on dodging to protect herself.
No, Fate is not a rogue. Rogues would not engage in lengthy one-on-one fights, and rogues certainly wouldn't engage in one-on-three fights where they're outnumbered. You have to be able to take a hit to try such things.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Or in the trope definitions, Nanoha is the Tank, Fate is a Fragile Speedster, and Signum the Lightning Bruiser.
Fate is not a Fragile Speedster. Fate is a melee fighter with good defense.


Also, something to point out: when Fate was teaching the Lightning Forwards, what did she tell them to do? Dodge. Now one can make an argument that dodging is needed for a support mage like Caro, but then when she tells Erio, the Neo-Belkan Melee mage that he needs to dodge, one starts to wonder.

You don't teach people something that you don't practice and believe.
Dodging makes sense for everybody in this series when it's a viable option. It makes sense since it conserves magical energy vis a vis making an energy shield.
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