[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'm simply using your reasoning. "This device doesn't look like it's doing what it can normally do, therefore it isn't." Yes or no?

Your reasoning is more like "therefore, it can't."

Even if we take your economic argument, it's also economical to make things similar, using similar parts, even if they have different purposes. Jail has a lot of red tubing around, so it's economical to sheathe extra appendages in them, even if they can't interface. And by the way, the type-1 drone appendages have a sort of plug on the end, while the type three red appendages have a sort of claw. Seems like different purposes to me.

http://picasaweb.google.com/11802003...43271306420290

Ah, but we're using your argument of "It's not shown, so can't be true!" So since active defenses weren't shown, they can't be true.

You are strawmanning a position that's closer to "It is not shown, there's no necessity, so there's no reason to assume it is true."

And by the way, the argument was "BJ+auto-barrier" not solely BJ, since it's hard to separate them out. You know, because an auto-barrier is magical, and yet isn't shown glowing like... ever. Hmm, magic without a symbol or glow... how odd...

Fine. I'd say you were concentrating on the BJs before, but if you want to choose to shift to BJ+auto barrier, I suppose we have no major quarrel over how they deal with shock. It also makes you a little smarter than your seniors, most of which try to argue it is the BJ itself.

Or the outer layer was more protective.

That's fine, but short of it being orders of magnitude more so, it ain't saving Fate., However, since you agree that defenses against shock would be BJ+auto barrier, I suppose we can move on.

How can I overestimate it? The only information we're given from the audio-only soundstage was that it was a HIGH EXPLOSIVE blast that could take out a tank. How exactly am I supposed to take that? "Oh, it says high explosive, but it really means it was a small explosion." That really what you want to argue? When I visualize a big enough explosion to take out a medium tank, and then compare that to what it would do to a humanoid figure, well, I imagine the humanoid figure becoming fully engulfed.

The soundtrack alone gives you plenty of information to conclude that the "tank" was no medium (as least as we know them), even if we ignore the picture. First,we are engaging a mage. Second, the weapon is a arm transformed into a howitzer, and the ammo is HE. From the arm we can tell that the weapon will 1) not be very big and 2) have limited recoil (read: limited velocity). The fact it is a "howitzer" provides an approximate ratio of length to caliber of 15-25 (part of its definition back when it meant something). Arms (at least mine) are something like 700mm long, so we can infer an arm sized weapon, with a caliber of 30-45mm. The choice of HE ammo is appropriate for anti-personnel BUT actually says something about mages - if we assume their defenses have good anti-kinetic properties, AT rounds like HEAT, HESH or EFP should have been selected to penetrate the defenses. AP rounds might be another option if not for the low velocity of the shooting piece.

Round is fired, long delay to impact. This confirms that the round has a low velocity, which is actually a reasonable consequence of its mounting so don't turn on your denial there like most people.

Now, our Miriage tells us this round can kill a tank. What kind of tank can a 30-45mm HE round, shot at low velocity, kill? Probably a light tank or a tankette, maybe even a "war wagon" (Kampfwagen = sensya). Certainly, it won't defeat over 200mm of armor.

She then tells us a mage shouldn't survive it, which goes on to confirm what we can begin to surmise by the time we hear "HE". Now we see Subaru survive it, with perhaps less clothing damage than we predicted. Go on to revise the estimate of yield downwards, and along with the "war wagon".

point blank HIGH EXPLOSIVE blast.

Maybe it wasn't so exposed, like I surmise.

How so?

Sure, if we want to ignore what's said. So, what else do you want to ignore in order to make a theory work? Because we can ignore all sorts of things in order to invent even more theories.[/quote]

Your solution basically ignores the last line the Miriage said, so even if that's true, it doesn't make you better. As for me, I just agilely use the maneuvering room provided by the imprecision of the "tank" line.

How about we assume it was actually a very small explosion, like a firecracker, and maybe Subaru just tripped backwards and fell through the rubble?

While a firecracker is your exaggeration, not mine, that's the basic drift the combined canon is forcing us to head towards for this incident.

No, I'm not. It's always been my opinion that the beam traveled the distance in less than six seconds, maybe 1 or 2 tops, and thus Vita didn't have time to dodge. And watching a beam traveling to it's target like that is kinda cool, so I recognize that's what they were going for, and on a personal level, it does work for me.

Oh, there is no flawed reasoning for taking it as is. As for the idea that beam traveled the distance in 1-2 seconds, it is a very common

But the magic glow would have been in their arms and hands, and/or in the wave of water, which is thin enough. Magic attack, no glow. Oops!

My point was that magic attacks have highly visible signatures.

You may want to watch their fights again. Explain this shot:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/mahou_...1/c004/13.html

Einhart punches Nove in the stomach hard enough to launch her into the air with no magic symbol and no glow for magic. And before you try to explain this one away, realize I can toss a half-a-dozen more at you, which means you'll have to invent different explanations for each and every one of them. Occam's razor; which is simpler? A complex explanation for each? Or a single theory that unites all of them under one?

Starting from the premise both work, a complex sounding explanation that does not involve our "5th force of physics" is arguably simpler, in scientific terms, than a simple sounding explanation that involves it.

Further, while you say you have more, you should not have misidentified WHO was providing the power to leap into the air for your vanguard example. Nove was punched in the gut, and to separate kicked the floor and leapt up herself.

Finally, as I said, the entire idea Precia used magic is unfalsifiable. Even if I smoothly handle all six of your examples, you will simply insist there are ways for Precia to use magic covertly, even though we see no sign and no reason for it. (By the way, that Fate's barrier jacket was torn is not a reason since that's the subject being checked).

So instead, prove that there is a high probability Precia used magic (not just "it is possible") in her whipping.

Besides, I don't know why a person who has to imagine his MGLN as faster and more powerful than it really is to enjoy it wants "magic" to be the explanation anyway. (There's no scientific necessity so it is a personal desire). I mean, S-rank Precia is using magic after magic as she whips Fate with only a barrier jacket and Fate isn't dead? Not being blown left and right across the room? If you want to blame the magic powered binds (again, glowing) then why aren't her wrists coming out of their sockets. Only superficially wounded and still conscious? Wow, the limitations of magic itself are on the table. I guess you'll now say Precia controlled herself ... controlled herself until from what we see we can't clearly distinguish any use of magic. Which makes the whole point of whether she used magic almost moot - she used magic so she can whip Fate ... like a guy who isn't using magic! On the calculation this would be equivalent to a non-magical physical whipping!

Oh, so we were told she was really strong, and yet nearly died to the drone? Hmm, if it messed up Nanoha that bad, who wasn't weak at all, then Vita should be messed up, too, but she isn't... we must therefore conclude that Vita is stronger than Nanoha!

One, thanks to being still part hologram, Vita is probably more survivable than Nanoha.

Second, the conclusion you should start facing is that Nanoha and Vita are strong, but even strong mages don't get shanked (physical attack) and come out of it in decent shape.

No, it says "no decrease in power over distance." That's physically impossible. Magic really is magic, ya know. All transmission of energy begets losses. If you transmit 5MW of power, you're not going to get 5MW on the other end. What you are suggesting, is that in order to get 5MW of power on the target, one should keep pushing in power to make up for the loss of power, so you'd use 7MW of power to get 5MW on the target. Which means you're still saying there is a loss in transit!

Let's settle for "no decrease in power over a certain (super-long) distance". Have you considered the obvious solution is that power was not decreased because it was constantly being replaced rather than it being a no-loss thing?

Besides, after you basically stated that the Miriage can't be right in her assessment that the blast would have killed a mage and that Shamal was wrong to call Nanoha only "slightly less capable" (you seem to think she was near dead), and after you called the explanation in the manga not quite exact, your sudden literal faith in a particular line in the booklet is ... amusing.

Could have just been a boast by Nove, which sounds a lot like something she'd do. Or that she figured it would take more than one shot to "kill" her, but she could certainly be injured or stunned. Given the fact that Wendi and Deed are taken out by one shot a piece later on, it would seem to led credence to that, unless you want to make up yet another separate theory that somehow Nove was tougher than the other two.

Actually there is a good case for saying Nove, as a dedicated close combat type, would be somewhat tougher than the other two though I don't think it'll be to the degree we can observe the difference with unambiguity.

In any case, Wendi agrees. Teana agrees so resorts to sneak attacks and even then Deed climbs up in a short time. The marginal effectiveness is obvious.

Why not? I mean, you're whole argument is that mass-based weapons are better, so we're trying to construct a reasonable scenario here using your criteria. If you just acknowledge that mass-based weapons wouldn't cut it in this situation, then we can move on past it.

A reasonable scenario does not involve placing one side in a situation that is created because of tactics based around very different means. It is like me saying Guns are better and you saying Swords are better, and you saying "What if you get into a close range fight with a gun against a swordsman".

\And one of the big flaws in your mass-based approach is the ammo limit;

Limitation. Not a flaw.

as we've seen, magic is almost unlimited. No ammo to weigh you down. They have cartridges, but she can still function without them, albeit in a reduced capacity. That's better than having no ammo, and reduced to 3-on-1 with a knife.

As I said, in this case it is traded off by increased effectiveness per hit.

And again, you ignored the question of whether an RPG can take a cyborg out or not. I'm waiting for your answer, before I showcase a few links that will most likely debunk any explanation you come up with, so try to choose your words carefully. =)

You should have been able to read out the answer from the previous post and everything above. But the answer is, yes. If you want to dispute this, please prove that a Cyborg's defensive protection exceeds ~300mm RHA equivalent. Then you might want to prove it exceeds 500-600mm, just to defeat the newer RPG rounds. If you can't prove that a Cyborg has >300mm, then try to prove it has say >50mm, so at least it can defeat a 40mm HEDP (with some HEAT capability) round.