[aeromono]

Well, my reply was long, so perhaps expecting others to actually ponder (and not skim) what I wrote was too much ? Depending on ... your ability to comprehend English - or let's just assume I suck at English - comprehend what I say, this might prove to be a practice in futility. I'll try to not drop any point you make (you may remind me), and I hope you'll do the same when replying, even if all you can say is a smiley (it's better to know the other person did read).

Originally Posted by Himeji

So you're saying that while *having* erotic fantasies is not evil, erotic fantasies themselves *are* evil

I find it strange that you're accusing me of saying something I did not say (and I'm in fact wondering why anyone could have taken it like that at all). It is something natural just as you say and everyone has those fantasies, it's just not in the realm of good vs evil, righteous vs sinful like some people would believe. It's just natural and to be expected, to suddenly assign it a value on the scales of good and evil is terribly judgemental. Are we gonna classify farts as good or evil too ?

Originally Posted by Himeji

First, the father is not criticising anime. Calling something "worthless" has nothing to do with criticising.
Second, he *is* criticising Kirino, because he thinks that Kirino has a worthless hobby in these anime.

I am speechless. OK, so let's assume I don't know what 'criticise' mean and calling something worthless doesn't mean you're trying to criticise it (you're just mocking it, maybe?). The point is still the same, calling anime bad/worthless (insert your own adjective) is not the same as calling Kirino and her friends bad/worthless (insert your own adjective). Kyousuke did not have to defend her friends, as the father wasn't calling them bad/worthless (insert your own adjective).

Originally Posted by Himeji

It's just that his father already had an opinion set in stone about anime being worthless, which was only being reinforced by the media.

To clarify, he was specifically referring to that little incest game with child porn (he was literally pointing his finger at it), not anime in general. In Japan, some anime/manga are considered socially acceptable and culturally relevant. The media actively promotes those anime/movies. What media in Japan calls Ghibli movies worthless and for otaku? But it is thought that only the fat basement-dwelling mommy-loving <insert expletive> otaku watch those anime series about hypersexual little girls and play eroges about having sex with their little sister, and that's exactly what Kirino is guilty of possessing here.

I can't deny the possibility that this Japan is from another universe and Ghibli movies/Satoshi Kon/etc don't exist and the media actively condemns all anime and Japan probably won World War 2 too, but for my sanity's sake, I assume this is the country we know today. The father condemns all those incest games with child porn. To say he condemns all anime, is just a presumption and hasty generalization on your part, something ep 3 did not tell us about.

Originally Posted by Himeji

No, Kyousuke's arguments weren't irrelevant at all.
Being the stubborn type, he completely refuses anything that Kyousuke says because he doesn't have the slightest intention of changing his opinion.

He wasn't tackling the father's main point, that those incest games are bad, but instead talked about something else instead.

And does that explain why he decided to take back his words ? Are we just gonna attribute it to cowardice on his part ? (uhm yeah he was scared of being beaten to death by his own son, I can believe that, I think)

Originally Posted by Himeji

You seem to have a totally different definition of "bad", but in my book, "worthless" and "bad" is the same - if anything, "worthless" is even worse than "bad". The father definitely did call anime a *worthless* hobby, perhaps you should rewatch it.

Firstly, I assume that you quoted the correct part of my reply. If so, you missed the point and instead tried to focus on whether I should have used the word 'worthless' or 'bad'.
This is what he said while pointing at the incest game : the people who do these things at this age are called otaku, this is a worthless hobby. Yeah, and now I'll have to repeat this because someone missed it. He did not say having something she could get so absorbed in was bad. She could probably be interested in science and try to pursue a scientific career, and no one can say that is bad (or worthless, insert your own word here). Having something you could get so absorbed in is not inherently bad. So the father said nothing about it. Condemning her hobby (playing incest games and whatnot) is not the same as saying she shouldn't have something she could get absorbed in (she should get absorbed in studying, for example).

Originally Posted by Himeji

I don't see any irrational about asking his father to accept Kirino's hobby. Just because the father thinks that having such a "worthless" hobby is irrational doesn't make asking to accept it irrational.

The underlined part is not the reason. The reason is that Kyousuke did not tackle the father's main point, that the incest games are bad/worthless (insert your own adjective). All he did was focusing on her friends and Kirino herself, and not those incest games. It is a plea because he was making a request, not trying to prove the father's main point is wrong. It is emotional because he wanted the father to sympathize and see her daughter is doing well with her otaku friends (oh my she's looking good and all I don't see anything to worry about here), while ignoring the main point about the games themselves.

We already know that the father is wrong ... It's just an argument that simple-minded people like Kyousuke's father would bring up.

Yeah he was proving Kirino was sensible and mature enough to play those games. This is a convincing point, and I'd go to great lengths to prove it, like I said.

Originally Posted by Himeji

So you're now saying that if Kirino didn't have anime and eroge as a hobby, her results in school and all would be much more stellar. First you loudly claim how bad that argument is, then you use it yourself

The answer is : you can never know. I said that in the very part you quoted. And now I say it again. Don't accuse me of saying something I did not say, pretty please. I don't even understand how anyone could have read 'You can never know' as 'I am perfectly confident that', and then accused me of being hypocritical. If you intend to make a reply, do tell me how you misunderstood.

Originally Posted by Himeji

The father said that he said nothing about her friends because he didn't understand what this photo of Kirino with friends had to do with the ongoing discussion about anime.

So , if I understand this correctly, after going to GREAT lengths to tell the father about Kirino's friends, you know, the weird friends who could get excited about the most stupid things, the otaku ones, yeah those ones, and saying that the pic was sent by Kirino's friends and asking whether the father needed to worry after seeing it, the father might somehow think these friends are the 'normal' ones who have nothing to do with her hobby ? I know you assume the father has the attention span of a goldfish but let's at least assume he can understand what Kyousuke says , eh ?

He knew that was the pic of her with her otaku friends. Period.

Originally Posted by Himeji

Of course it is not right to threaten anyone with violence. I never said that it would be right or condoned it in any way, so don't put stuff in my mouth I never said!

I can sympathize with you here. The order of my sentences was wrong and misleading, I thought you jokingly said that the father was scared and 'would promise anything just so that Kyousuke lets him off again' (ridiculous, seeing that he could knock out Kyousuke with one hit). I did not imply you condoned the violent acts, but was simply commenting on how hopeless they both are (like father like son). So perhaps, do not accuse me of accusing you of saying something you didn't say when I did not imply that.

Originally Posted by Himeji

He *did* pretend, because he felt threatened by Kyousuke's sudden outbreak and wanted him to unhand him.
He *might* know that he hurt Kirino's feelings... but more than likely, he didn't. He certainly isn't the type to notice such things, and Kirino running out crying didn't ring a bell with him, as he's still as unrelenting when Kyousuke comes to talk with him.

In a nutshell, up to this point, you assume he's cowardly (scared of his own son who he can knock out with ease), simple-minded, constantly inattentive, unable to understand the pic was sent by her otaku friends, probably oblivious to the fact that his daughter's feelings were hurt (I agree it is not very obvious, she only runs away!). Anything else ?

Originally Posted by Himeji

What has this Robocop-speech about "law-abiding citizens" got to do with anything? This is neither brought up by the father nor by Kyousuke.

Sorry, but ... you do understand what R18 means right? Yes the father brought that up and Kyousuke had expected that too. It means Kirino is not allowed to play those games. Depending on where you live, selling these games to Kirino could mean up to 6 months imprisonment and a hefty fine.

Originally Posted by Himeji

At the end however, the innocent image of Kirino was restored again.
Kyousuke didn't explain it properly and didn't say that the other girls on the picture are also otaku, so his father didn't understood that.
He simply *wants* to believe that Kirino was only forced to cover up for Kyousuke

See above. Decide for yourself whether he has the attention span of a goldfish and believes Kyousuke was referring to 2 different groups of 'friends' (the ones he tried to defend, and the normal ones who just happened to be in the picture that Kyousuke used to convince his dad to let her keep her hobby, did that make sense ?)

People can voluntarily turn a blind eye to a lot of things. But after hearing Kyousuke talk a great deal about her new friends who shared the same hobby, being shown that pic, and asked whether he should have to worry, why do you assume the father couldn't understand those are the same friends Kyousuke had talked about ?

Actually, ask anyone whether the father knew that was the pic of Kirino with her new otaku friends, or he just thought they were random friends thrown into the discussion for no apparent purpose at all.