[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by einhorn303

I've heard from people who speak Japanese that, yes, they are different terms.

The Red must be taken literally. To quote:
The red only tells the truth.
The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!
You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!

It's cute how you think this actually means anything.
1) The Red only tells the truth. This is true, but it doesn't mean it's absolute. It's just that Beatrice can't lie in it, and she can make truthful statements about a work of fiction. Besides, this is circular reasoning. It's like saying the Bible is absolutely true because the Bible says so. If you decide to trust the Bible, sure. The Red only has validity because everyone has agreed to give it such.

2) This doesn't really add anything.

3) We know this isn't EXACTLY true. The Gold and the White have all been used to reliably tell us truthful things. It's just that these do not carry a guarantee like the Red does.

That's not what Erika said. She said she was "the 18th human on Rokkenjima." Therefore, she is a human on Rokkenjima. She said nothing about being a character given an assignment. If anything is "trying to apply special rules to certain reds," it's taking what the Red Truth literally says and interpreting it to say something completely different.

I am Erika, the 18th human on Rokkenjima. Alright, but Erika doesn't exist. She's also the detective, but she doesn't exist. Just like how Sakutarou is Maria's precious friend even though he is not real. You really need to think in layers, here. If we assume that all Red Truths are universally valid in all contexts, then nothing will ever make sense, because they blatantly contradict each other at times due to being in different contexts.

Magic doesn't exist on the gameboard or in reality, but it does exist in the meta world.

Prove it.

I say it doesn't, because the Meta-World scenes are demonstratably scenes in a written work of fiction just like the Gameboard, and Beatrice is not a witch. I mean, sure, I guess you're right in that within the narrative of the Meta-World, magic happens, like how magic happens in Middle Earth, but that would only be conceding the point of mine that the Red Truths can apply to fictions without speaking about Objective Reality, or you could say that Magic is something else, such as "stage magic", but that's also conceding the same point of the Red Truth not having to be literal so long as it is still true.

The Red cannot always be literal all the time. It's not possible.

Notice that there are never any red truths spoken about the meta world. It doesn't hold up to any sort of logic or consistency, and can have any sort of magic: it's a hypothetical world of the author's imagination.

Er...except, yes, there are reds spoken about the Meta-World.

This is my Golden Land
A world where magic that isn't mine certainly cannot exist
Don't leave me all alone!!!
The witch before your eyes stole away my whole family, even you, Onii-chan...! Finish her...!!
Then, take your family back!!
And then, .........come home to me......!!!
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.
It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!!
hi-hhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi
Come on, Ushiromiya Battler, kneel
*cackle*cackle*cackle*hihihihihihihihihihihyahyahy ahhahhahahahaha-hhahahahhahhahhahhahhahhahha

There's a few Red Truths on the Meta-World for you. I also threw in, as a bonus, some Red Truths that were either requests, laughter, or other statements that literally have no bearing on true or false one way or another, and I also chucked in some Reds that are literally impossible unless you use metaphor.

About the win condition: Battler has to disprove the existance of witches on the gameboard (and a very specific gameboard of that island, on those two days), not in the meta world. He's quite explicit about this.

Agreed, but Beatrice is still not a witch.

The higher plane author of all episodes is ryukishi07.

Though inbetween that plane and the Gameboards, we also have Hachijou Tohya, and the human identity of Beatrice who wrote the original two message bottles.

I find it difficult to except that there is a "Rokkenjima Prime" that is a "more real" than the gameboards. They're all equally fiction, written by ryukishi07. If JK Rowling says that Dumbledore is gay, then yes, that makes Dumbledore's homosexuality an absolutely truth in the world of Harry Potter. In the same sense, everything ryukishi07 writes in red is an absolute truth in the world of Umineko.

So, then, what's the problem, here? We KNOW that the Gameboards are fiction. Someone in Ange's world of 1998 wrote them. Ange, and other people in her world, can read them on the internet, complete with scenes that use "red ink" to clarify parts. There's even a group of Witch Hunters that debate what's going on just like we do.

The Gameboards and probably the Meta-World are fictions written by humans. There is only ONE truth of what really happened on Rokkenjima, or else the idea of trying to uncover the truth of what happened is an absolutely fucking meaningless statement. How are we expected to deduce what really happened if there's no valid universe? Did the universe break into many timelines for two days, then merged back together for Ange's future, or some nonsense?

Once again, she used magic in the meta world. Magic exists in the meta world, but in the gameboard or "reality." So the red truth isn't contradicted there. Anyways, if you don't trust the red truth of ryukishi07, then there's no point to any discussion about the "truth" of Umineko. Without the absolute truth provided by an infallible red, we're just talking about what we want to be the truth, or what we "believe" to be the truth, not what is the truth.

The gameboard is not Reality. Erika uses Red on the Gameboard, and people can be forced to act in magical ways through the Detective's Authority. Time can be stopped indefinitely, or Gameboards (universes, according to you) can be destroyed by Logic Errors. Are you proposing that someone making a logical contradiction on some island somewhere can destroy an entire fucking universe? Holy shit, Erika. I'm not saying there isn't an absolute truth, and I'm not saying I don't trust the red truth. I'm just saying the two aren't necessarily the exact same thing.

Though it's funny you should talk about us arguing about what is the truth subjectively, because that's exactly what we're supposed to be doing. Did the thing about multiple truths and catboxes not get through?

This should be in blue, not red.

It's a true statement, though.

Regarding "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice:" If she spoke it on the meta world, she might still be a witch in the meta world but not in the gameboard of "reality."

But you just said yourself that the Meta-World is the world of an author's imagination. Are you conceding that the Red Truth CAN comment on imaginary fictions in someone's mind? Huh, funny that. It's almost like you're contradicting yourself.

Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.

Oh yea, I'd also like to bring up this red truth. Do you think that Beatrice's human self is only six years old? If not, you must concede that the Red Truth cannot be literal, that it can incorporate metaphor, or that it can speak on the context of fictions, such as imaginary personas.

Either way, your line of thinking won't hold up by the very Red Truth you hold in such high regard.